Manitoba Hansard — 25 May 1995 (Sitting 3, 36th Legislature, 1st Session)

36-1-3

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLV No� 3-1:30 p.m., Thursday, May 25, 1995

Name ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CEltULLI.�e CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Alben, Hon. DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTIND ALE, Doug McALPINE, Ge1fY McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Aff"iliation Comtituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norben St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Ponage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupensland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Tunle Mountain Fon Garry Swan River � N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

73 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 25, 1995 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Recognition of Liberal Members Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, under the rules of our House, I have decided .to take this opportunity to introduce a matter of privilege, something that is in fact very serious, and I hope and trust that all members of this Chamber will reflect very closely on what it is I am about to say with respect to treatment of individual members inside the Chamber.

I want to start off, Madam Speaker, repeating what you yourself said just a couple of days ago, and actually prior to that, I should point out that according to Beauchesne's in Citations 115 and 117, it is clear that you have to bring your matter of privilege at the soonest opportune time. I believe I have done that. I am standing here to concentrate my efforts and thoughts on Question Period and what took place yesterday and today, after having some research individuals go through what took place yesterday.

In fact, it reaffirms that, including supplementary questi ons, we saw in excess of 24 questions asked by members of the New Democratic caucus, while us as Liberal MLAs were completely discarded from being able to participate in a very important aspect of parliamentary tradition. That is why I believe it is timely to be able to present that, and according to Citation 117, I hope to impress upon individuals that in fact there is need for us to enter into some form of debate, or possibly even send it into committee.

As I was saying, Madam Speaker, I wanted to comment on what you said just two days ago inside this Chamber when you accepted the responsibility of being the Speaker, and I quote on page 2 of May 23: "It will be my aim and duty to uphold the principles and traditions of the House and secure for each member the right to express his or her opinions within the limits necessary to preserve decorum; to recognize the rights and privileges of the honourable members, the political groups and the House itself; to facilitate the transaction of public business in an orderly manner and, above all, to seek to be fair and impartial in the decisions you entrust to me." *

(1335) Madam Speaker, Beauchesne's is very clear in terms of the type of authority that you have. In fact, you can look into Beauchesne's and you will see that you have the authority to even look at the statutory orders and, if need be, to change or to do what you feel is the most appropriate thing to do. I believe you should do just that with respect to Question Period. Other Speakers, Speakers prior to you, have done that. Tradition has not been that great inside this Chamber, of having three parties.

When we have had independents, individuals, the recognition that they have been given for Question Period has been considerably better than what took place yesterday. On numerous occasions, as everyone in this Chamber saw, I stood up to get acknowledged by the Speaker to be able to pose what I believe was a good question and in the best interests of the constituents that I serve, and, in fact, for Manitobans, and everyone should have the ability to ask that question, Madam Speaker. In the past, what has happened?

Well, if you look back, you could say there was June Westbury, the former member for Fort Rouge, and what sort of treatment did Ms. June Westbury receive? I had the opportunity to have someone talk to her earlier this morning, and she indicated that she was given the courtesy of being allowed to ask a question virtually every day, and on some days, she was given a second question. Madam Speaker, if you look at when those questions were asked, you will see that in many cases, it was the third and sometimes it was the second. Sometimes, she followed Howard Pawley when Howard Pawley was in opposition.

That was under a Conservative administration.

74 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1995 Let us go back not as far. Let us go back to when Sharon Carstairs was the lone Liberal inside this Chamber. What sort of treatment did this independent MLA have inside the Chamber? I would suggest to you, Madam Speaker, if you look at the treatment that she was given, and that was under an NDP administration, she was given at least one question a day as an independent. [interjection] Madam Speaker, the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) might choose to make light of a very serious matter.

This is something that is broader than maybe what the member for Kildonan really wants to deal with. He might be more focused on the New Democratic Party. I am talking in terms of what is right and what is fair to all individuals, all individual members of this Chamber. That member for Kildonan is no better than I and should be respectful in terms of what parliamentary tradition is all about. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would caution the honourable member to be very careful in the selection ofhis words. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, excuse me for digressing.

The point of the matter is, everyone inside this Chamber was elected. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) was elected as the Leader of the Conservative Party. Mr. Ashton was elected, or the member for Thompson, as a New Democrat, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I was elected as a Liberal MLA, and I am proud of that fact. I believe that I, too, as an individual have rights to be able to ask questions.

I believe that if we look in terms of what has happened over the years when we have had independent members inside this Chamber who represented more than just their constituents, the June Westburys, the Sharon Carstairs, that they were allowed, they were provided, the opportunity from the Speaker to be able to express, to be able to ask and participate in Question Period. *

(1340) Under the current setup, we have a question in terms of, well, a political party requires four. Madam Speaker, we acknowledge we do not have party status. I am not asking for party status. What I am asking for is respect, and I believe I am entitled to respect, parliamentary respect I believe that I and the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) and the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) deserve that respect.

I will stand up today, I will stand up tomorrow, and I will do what I feel is in my best interest, in my constituents' best interest, thereby the interests of the people of this province to ensure that individual MLAs are given the respect that they are entitled to. I do not see that happening. I believe that if you look at-because we have not had the opportunity-! have left messages to be able to talk to you, and we did have some opportunities to discuss.

I trust that if we look in terms of what has happened in the past, if we look in terms ofboth Conservative and New Democratic administrations, the independents have been given their fair share. I am not asking for more. I believe it was something in the neighbourhood of 27 questions yesterday-it might have been 26, possibly 25-there was in excess. There are 23 New Democrats. There were more questions asked by the New Democrats than members, and, even though I stood up time and time again, Madam Speaker, after the third or fourth question along with supplementaries, I was not acknowledged.

I would ask that we look at customs from the past. We do not have too much. The New Democrats, some might choose to try to say, well, look what is happening in Ottawa. Look what is happening in this province. What we are talking about is the Province of Manitoba. What I am talking about is what is happening inside this Chamber and, Madam Speaker, you have the control. You are the individual who can allow us to ask the questions.

If you decide ultimately to say, no, that we are going to continue to allow the New Democrats to have all of the questions for Question Period or assign them a question at the end of Question Period, well, that is your choice. But I would strongly urge you in the very best way I can to acknowledge the fact that I am a Liberal MLA, that my colleague from The Maples is a Liberal MLA and so is the member for St. Boniface. We went through an election just like everyone else in this

May 25, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 75 Chamber. We are all proud of the political parties that we come from. We all have a significant role. The Liberal Party is going to survive. The Liberal Party will survive no matter what sort of decision that you ultimately make but as a member of this Chamber I do believe I have the right to be able to pose questions during Question Period.

Yesterday, whether it was an innocent mistake, Madam Speaker, or whatever it was, I do believe that we have to rectify what could be a very long-lasting decision that will have an impact because ultimately the average session sits for 91 days. If we are in here for another four years, you are talking at least-and the members from the government side say at least and they could be right-we are talking at least 360 days in which we are going to be sitting inside this Chamber and for a full hour discussing the affairs of this province. I do not believe that any member should be denied.

I even acknowledged under the previous Speaker, when he would sit down with me and he would say, well, you know, all of us have rights. I do not know if I can say my first name. He would say, Kevin, all of us have rights and that I have to even respect the backbenchers. I will tell you something, Madam Speaker, when a backbencher from the government stood up and expressed a question-and I remember the member for Portage la Prairie (Mr.

Pallister) in particular would stand up and ask several questions-! respected the fact that he, too, is a member and albeit I might have preferred that he did not stand up, I recognize, as the Speaker then, that he had a right to ask a question. *

(1345) You know something, Madam Speaker, you will see that even the member for Portage (Mr. Pallister) and other backbenchers, when they asked questions, .they asked questions that were not necessarily the last question of the day. Many of them were four or five questions into it. I still appreciate the fact that for seven years-actually I was the House leader for just over four years, but as the deputy House leader, I had opportunity to meet with the former Speaker on many different occasions. Question Period was something that we constantly talked about, because it was something that was always in dispute.

You know, one of the unfortunate things is I never really got the opportunity to establish the same sort of a rapport with the Speaker as other members, because I had to defend what was in our caucus's best interest. Madam Speaker, the Speaker who was there before you was very clear on what he believed was important in terms of questions and who should be able to ask questions and when they should be able to ask questions. When we talked about it, the Speaker indicated to me, look, we want to be fair, and you will get your fair share of questions. That is what the Speaker told me.

We would then have the dialogue well, what sorts of questions and where are those questions going to be, because that is important, to have your fair share. You could say, well, if there are 26 questions or 29 questions, you should be entitled to three questions, so I will give you three questions. Madam Speaker, that gives you the proportion, correct, if you like, based on the number of people who are inside the Chamber, but it does not really allude to the fact of what priority your question is going to have during Question Period. This is what it is that we are talking about also.

It is not just good enough to say, look, we are going to give you-okay, fine, the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) stands up, and maybe he has a valid argument, and we will give him a certain percentage of the number of questions that are asked during the day, because that is only one part of it. The other part of it, Madam Speaker, is, of course, where are those questions going to be asked. That is the dialogue that the former Speaker and I had. We reached a consensus.

Through that consensus, the members of the Liberal caucus were content, the members of the New Democratic caucus were content and so were the government backbenchers. They all had avenues in which to have dialogue. The Speaker spoke with the different members. It is important that we, too, sit down and we talk about Question Period in terms of the priority,

76 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1995 where the questions are going to be asked. Until we do that, it is the issue about which I have full intentions of standing up again and again and again. I hope and I trust, Madam Speaker, and I am convinced that you will give it serious consideration. I believe you meant what you said the other day inside the Chamber. I trust and hope that this will be a matter that will be dealt with, with the utmost importance.

Suffice to say, I would conclude my remarks by making reference to Madam Carstairs and Madam Westbury and the treatment that they received while they were independents inside this Chamber and not to ask for anything better than what they received, but to at least be given the same sorts of courtesies, the same sort of acknowledgement. After all, we are not one independent; there are in fact three members inside this Chamber that were elected on the Liberal Party platform and sit here first and foremost as MLAs, but also as Liberal MLAs. On that, Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the member for St.

Boniface (Mr. Gaudry), that this matter be referred to the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections for consideration at the earliest opportunity, and that the Speaker report back to the House on the results of those deliberations. *

(1350) Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, there can be no better indication of the rights of all members of this House that the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) was able, for the first 20 minutes of this sitting, to discuss this matter of privilege, and I think that should be commented upon. I also believe that it should also be noted that we are in the second full sitting day of the Legislature, and I find it, quite frankly, somewhat surprising that the member would be bringing in a matter of privilege relating to one Question Period.

I also find it somewhat concerning that some of the comments, I would suggest, were bordering not directly upon questioning your decisions as Speaker, and let there be no doubt about the role of the Speaker in determining who speaks, who ask questions. I will quote Beauchesne Citation 461: "Officially there is no list of Members desiring to speak in debate. Any Member who wishes to speak may rise and endeavour to catch the Speaker's eye .... " I would also point out, Madam Speaker, to correct the member for Inkster, that we have 23 members. I believe, yesterday, nine of our members asked questions.

The tradition in this House is one question, followed by two supplementaries. Yesterday, 14 of our members did not have the opportunity to ask a question because of the time limitations. Neither did any of the government members, the government backbenchers, have the opportunity to ask questions later. I would suggest we keep this in perspective and, quite frankly, I believe that the member for Inkster should receive the same kind of consideration that any of us would expect.

Having served in this House, both on the government side and as an officially recognized third party and now as an officially recognized opposition party, I realize it can often be difficult to make the adjustments that occur following an election. I would suggest to the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) that he will be given every consideration possible by this House, but the fact is that the Liberal Party did not win the required numbers for official party status.

I would suggest that they should look very carefully at what has happened, I think, to the two federal parties that found themselves in that situation. The rules that we have in place were applied in those cases; they are being applied in this case. They do not affect the ability of any member of this House to ask questions. I would expect that the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) and any member of this House will be recognized in the traditions of this House, which is that you, Madam Speaker, are the fmal authority in terms of who is recognized.

I would suggest to the member for Inkster, and I have raised a number of matters of privilege in my time, one of the clearest indications when one looks at the tradition in terms of Beauchesne and other authorities in terms of a matter of privilege is that they are serious matters and ought not to be raised in this House unless we are dealing with a very serious matter.

May 25, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 77 I think what we are dealing with here is a concern based on one Question Period. I suspect there are other issues that the member was raising that really had very little to do with the matter of privilege itself, related to the new status that he finds himself in, and the three members do, of not being an officially recognized party. I want to say, Madam Speaker, that we believe every member of the House should be accorded every consideration in terms of recognition, particularly in Question Period, and we believe also in the role of the Speaker in doing that.

I think it is highly inappropriate in this our second full day in the Legislature after one Question Period to be dealing with a supposed matter of privilege dealing with your actions in Question Period yesterday. We believe there is no prima facie case of privilege. We also believe, Madam Speaker, as we indicated certainly in the first day, that we expect you will perform your duties as Speaker under Beauchesne 461 and many other citations in Beauchesne indicating that it is clearly your role to recognize members. There is no speaking roster.

No one in this House takes precedence over other members, whether they be in the government, the official opposition or part of a party which is not officially recognized. *

(1355) No one takes precedence, and it is not a matter of privilege if I do not get recognized one day, and I am not happy with it, or any other member of this House does not get recognized any one day and is not happy with it. Therefore, I believe there is no prima facie case of privilege. Madam Speaker: A matter of privilege is indeed a serious concern. I thank the honourable member for Thompson and the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) for bringing this matter to the House.

I will be taking this matter under advisement to consult the authorities, and I will return in the very near future with a ruling. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Speaker's Statement Madam Speaker: I am pleased to inform the Assembly that the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly today has received from the Chief Electoral Officer a certificate showing the election of Darren Praznik as member for the constituency of Lac du Bonnet which was delayed due to an application for recount which was withdrawn today. I hereby table the return to the Writ of Election.

The honourable member has taken the oath, signed the roll and now has the right to take his seat. On behalf of all honourable members, I wish to welcome you again to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba PRESENTING PETITIONS Funding Model-Public Education Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Surinder Kamdoz, Garry Paziuk, Noreen Head and others requesting the Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Mcintosh) to reconsider the funding model to ensure that Thompson and other communities in this province are able to maintain quality public education.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS American Airlines Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I have a statement to make. What a great day it is in Manitoba. It is a great day in Manitoba. I was delighted today to participate in inaugurating American Airlines' newest service for Manitobans. I would like to commend the officials at American for their astute judgment in bringing Winnipeg into the largest airline hub on the continent.

The addition of a nonstop flight daily service between Winnipeg and Chicago reflects the growing significance of Manitoba and of our capital city in North America.

78 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May25, I995 Madam Speaker, this new service which will introduce three nonstop flights daily brings two major advantages at least to Manitoba One is that it provides yet another link between the people of this province and cities across the continent and around the world. For business people based in Manitoba and those considering relocating and starting up new businesses here in Manitoba, convenient air service to major U.S. cities is clearly an advantage.

The second major benefit of this service is that tourists from across America and abroad now have another direct and efficient route to visit our great province. Madam Speaker, with the growth of free trade between Canada and the United States, and now with Mexico as well, being integrated into the hub of America's largest airline is of even greater importance to Manitoba.

We believe Winnipeg's location at the northern end of a trade corridor running all the way south to Monterrey, Mexico, our central position within Canada and our airport's 24-hour operation make us a natural site as a commercial tt:ansportation hub for the next century. This new service, Madam Speaker, starting today, is a long stride in that direction, and I thank honourable members for this opportunity. *

(1400) Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I thank the minister for his statement This House seems to be preoccupied with jets of one kind or another, and this is the kind that we like. We are very pleased that you are announcing the actions of American Airlines in establishing this route. We would trust that you will undertake a more comprehensive strategy of marketing the advantages of Winnipeg within that I 0 million population catchment area, and that, hopefully, you will also manage to correct the tourism brochure regarding Brandon at the same time. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): I have the pleasure of tabling with the House the Annual Report for the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation for the years '93 and '94; along with that, as well, the Supplementary Information for the Legislative Review of my department's Estimates which I am anticipating shortly. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the departmental expenditure Estimates for the Department of Rural Development.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw attention to members of the House that in the gallery with us this afternoon, we have sixty Grade II students from Warren Collegiate. These students are under the direction of Mr. Jake Wiebe, and this school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Winnipeg Jets Agreement Information Release Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

Last year, when we were asking the government to make public all the information at the Public Accounts dealing with the operating loss agreement, the amendment to the operating loss agreement and the various proposals to deal with the Winnipeg Jets hockey team, the Premier stated in Hansard, and I quote: We will do better than presenting this to the Public Accounts. We will give the information to the public directly, so they can deal with it, rather than being confined to a partisan debate. We will take it all to the public.

Madam Speaker, we were quite concerned then that the government for a period of time kept everything silent and secret in terms of the various proposals, and

May25, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 79 only the day after the election did we find out the state of play of the various proposals to deal with the hockey team and the Winnipeg Jets and the operating loss agreement that this Premier had signed twice. I would like to ask the Premier, why did he keep the proposals secret until the day after the election, and what has been the cost in terms of the overall purchase of the privately owned team to the public and the private owners for the government not involving the public at an earlier stage? Bon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the information with respect to the MEC proposal was made public as soon as it was available. The information that we were operating on was based on their original business plan which they changed a matter of days before it was made public after the election campaign. It was made available on a timely basis.

With respect to the costs to the provincial Treasury for undertaking the losses in the agreement, they were something in the range of$9 million of costs in picking up losses from the agreement that was signed in 1991, for which period of time the direct revenues to the provincial Treasury were in excess of$17 million, so a net gain of $8 million to the provincial Treasury by virtue of that agreement. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the Premier did not answer the question. I asked what was the cost of delaying making that information public from May 1 on.

My supplementary question to the Premier is, how can the Premier create a loop of business people, be involved in amending an agreement and not be involved in what the discussions are in the loop and only make that public after the election? Why was the public not involved in the various proposals that were going on until after the election campaign? Why will the Premier not table the amended and addended agreement from June 30 covering the operating loss agreements and all the proposals now that are before the lawyers across the city of Winnipeg? Why are those proposals not being made public in this House?

We are responsible for the capital costs of the arena in the public sector. We are responsible for part of the operating costs with our shares. We are also responsible perhaps for tax provisions. Why will the Premier not table all that information today in the Chamber? Mr. Filmon: First and foremost, Madam Speaker, the information the member is seeking is information with respect to negotiations that are going on between private sector entities. They do not involve our side of the equation, which is to provide a capital facility. That is our side of the obligation.

In the past, the member has been critical of being involved in the operating costs and operating losses of the team. That is not part of our responsibility. That is being taken over by the private sector. All of the negotiations that are taking place now are with respect to their arrangements, not with respect to our side of the agreement. Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, again, I ask the Premier to table the information, because if we could have purchased the team for $32 million before May 1, but because of delays of the provincial government, keeping this whole issue secret, the cost is going to be $32 million plus the private owners maintaining 22 percent of the shares, that is, the equivalent of some $15 million, the equivalent of all the money raised by the so-called grassroots campaign.

My question to the Premier is, why will you not table all the information in the House, the addended agreement which you were a party to before the June 30 deadline and the existing documents that are in play? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the member has answered his own question. The fact of the matter is he did not want us to purchase the team and take responsibility for the operating losses. We have not purchased the team.

80 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1995 That agreement with respect to the purchase of the team is being done between private sector owners. *

(1410) Winnipeg Arena Provincial Funding Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. Yesterday, the Minister of Finance refused to provide information to this House on the scale of the tax expenditures involved in the Jets' deal while knowing that a proposal to buy the Jets had been prepared and forwarded to the current owners, which proposal certainly contains the data required to tell the House the scale of these tax expenditures. Will the minister now provide this information? What are the tax expenditures implied in the current proposal which was forwarded to Mr.

Shenkarow yesterday? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I want to correct the member for Crescent wood. I am sure he, hopefully, erred unintentionally. I did not refuse to provide any information to this House, because as I indicated to the member yesterday, the issue of whether or not contributions to the potential endowment fund, whether or not those contributions are deductible for tax purposes as a donation is an issue that is being dealt with between the private sector and Revenue Canada, which is an arm of the federal government. Donations-Tax Deductibility Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): To the same minister: Will the minister now confirm to this House, as he apparently already has confirmed to the media, that he and his government now favour the granting of charitable status to the Jets memorial endowment fund? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I hope the member for Crescentwood, only day two into our session, takes the time to do a little more research before asking these types of questions, because we did not offer any opinion on what the decision of the federal government might be.

It is a matter that the private sector is dealing with Revenue Canada on, whether or not contributions to that kind of a fund will be tax deductible. It is a matter within the jurisdiction of the federal government and Revenue Canada, and it is a matter they will be ruling on, I am sure, in due course. Provincial Funding Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, will the minister then at least confirm the calculations which were quoted this morning in the Free Press, and he was also party to that interview, that show that the tax subsidy for the proposed $60-million endowment fund will be $9 million from the province, bringing the contribution of his government to this project to at least $46 million, 4.6 times the pre-election promises? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, we have indicated consistently that if an item qualifies as a donation for tax purposes, the approximate cost to the provincial Treasury is 15 percent of that contribution. The approximate cost to the federal Treasury is 30 percent of that contribution. The member can certainly do the mathematics on any size of a fund that he so chooses, depending on where that endowment fund ends up and whether or not the matter is determined by Revenue Canada to be something that does qualify as a donation for tax deduction purposes.

Children's Hospital Psychiatric Unit-Bed Closures Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. During the election campaign and lead-up to the election campaign, we saw a flurry of government announcements regarding health care, and, in particular, we saw a lot of bed openings at the Children's Hospital.

May 25, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 81 My question to the Minister of Health is, why now, after the election, is the government ordering the closure of the eight-bed psychiatric unit that was opened only eight weeks ago at the children's psychiatric unit at Children's Hospital? Bon. James McCrae (Minister ofBealth): Madam Speaker, the honourable member, if he reviews the circumstances, will recall that there were a number of respiratory cases presenting at the Health Sciences Centre, Children's Hospital, at the time that the swing or standby beds, or whatever they are called, were opened.

At that time, it was made clear that they were open for a specified period of time. They were opened because there was a need to open them. Madam Speaker, the honourable member wants to suggest that we should have hospital beds there that are not needed. That is all right, but I do not think that any responsible hospital administration or government can do that when you consider the realities that we all face together. Mr.

Chomiak: Can the minister give us assurances today that the children who require psychiatric care will not be forced to wait in long lineups or be forced to go into children's medical beds, since they are now closing the eight psychiatric beds that they opened eight weeks ago just before the provincial election? Will he give us assurances that those children will not have to wait in line and will get the service needed? Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, that has been, is and will remain our policy. Mr.

Chomiak: If the minister still chooses to close these beds, will he give assurances and outline what specific alternatives he will put in place to provide community-based services or other services to these children who require psychiatric services, so they will not have to wait in line or be put in medical beds, as they have done in the past since this government started so-called health reform ? Mr. McCrae: Everything that we do in the operation of our health system will be with the patient in mind. It will be to be responsive to the needs that exist, and it will be evidence-based.

Family Maintenance Payments Supreme Court Decision Ms. Diane McGitTord (Osborne): Madam Speaker, my question is for the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Today, the Supreme Court of Canada reversed the judgment of the Federal Court of Appeal and ruled against Suzann e Thibaudeau. This is unfort unate for many Manitoban women and their children, since it means that the recipients of maintenance payments rather than the person who actually earned the income will bear the taxation burden. My first question is, what action is the present government considering to remedy the effects of this ruling? Bon.

Darren Pramik (Acting Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Justice and Attorney General. Ms. McGitTord: Madam Speaker, did the provincial government make any representation to the Supreme Court, and does the provincial government accept this decision as fair? Mr. Pramik: Madam Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Attorney General. Ms.

McGitTord: In order to alleviate the tax burden on custodial parents, will the governme nt adopt our party's position and change provincial law, so that courts take into account tax implications when awarding maintenance? Mr. Pramik: Yes, Madam Speaker, I can, as someone who has been through law school, advise the honourable member that courts do take into account tax implications when they are setting maintenance and making those decisions, but the specifics of her question, I will take as notice on behalf of the Minister of Justice.

82 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25 , 1995 Sex Offenders Community Notification Committee Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Before and during the recent provincial election, the Premier touted the government's new community notification committee, which we were promised would review every high-risk sex offender well in advance of each offender's release from jail and then would determine whether there should be notification to the community.

Would the First Minister now explain to Manitobans why the committee has taken no action, has not even been informed of two high-risk sex offenders, who, we understand, have moved to Winnipeg in the last month? Hon. Darren Praznik (Acting Minister of Justice Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, my final supplementary is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Would he now assure Manitobans when this government will finally do something about Manitobans' safety and take some action with these cases, as promised? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I can assure the member that this government and the Minister of Justice (Mrs.

Vodrey) is very much committed to ensuring the safety of Manitobans and in taking very strong positions on criminal activity, and I know that many of the actions we have taken have done that with the opposition of the member for St. Johns who has not been supportive of many of those strong positions. The specifics of his question, I will take as notice on behalf of the Minister of Justice. and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I will take * (1420) that question again as notice on behalf of the Minister of Justice. Mr.

Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, it was the First Minister who was closing the jail doors- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member, with his supplementary question. Please put your question now. Mr. Mackintosh: My question to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon), would the First Minister now confirm that the notification committee was just another election gimmick, as proven by this committee's first test? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, I can tell the member opposite that this party in the election and in government has always been consistent and has been very strong on Justice issues and in wanting to ensure that Manitobans are safe on the streets of this province, unlike members of his party when they have had opportunity to govern or to put forward positions. I will take the specifics of his question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Justice. Winnipeg Air Command Relocation Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St James): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson).

Earlier this year, in the federal budget, it was announced that Air Command headquarters in St. James will be moved to Ottawa, costing Winnipeg hundreds of direct and indirect jobs, many of those in my riding of St. James. My question is, what is the status of this relocation, as far as the minister is aware? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, again, that was a very difficult situation for the City of Winnipeg and the Province of Manitoba with the federal government's budgetary actions which would have a devastation as far as the Air Command and the jobs in the city of Winnipeg. We are currently waiting on an update from the federal government and will report as that comes forward.

May25, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 83 Ms. Mihychuk: My supplementary question is, what is the status of negotiation for using the $30-million Billy Bishop Building, which was opened just nine years ago and could be used to consolidate air force operations curr ently located in other parts of the country? Mr. Downey: I thank the member for the question. That was one of the options that was discussed. Our first desire, of course, was not to lose any jobs under Air Command.

The option coming forward of the relocation of operational activities from four other centres is an option that we hope the federal members of this province can support us in, in going to the federal government, if given the opportunity, to advance that as an opportunity to fill the vacant facilities that will be left here. Ms. Mihychuk: Why has this minister not put forward the same effort to save and get the hundreds of aerospace jobs in this province that they, this government, did to accommodate the ever-changing demands of the owners of the Winnipeg Jets? Mr.

Downey: Madam Speaker, the member could well be criticizing her own Leader and other members of this House who were part of an all-party committee who joined together co-operatively, in a nonpartisan way, to put together opposition to the actions by the federal government and request that they give consideration in a positive way that would encourage and, in fact, help the City of Winnipeg and the Province of Manitoba. I am somewhat disappointed in her negative approach towards the work that her Leader was part of. I would hope she would speak to him and spur him on a little bit more.

Northern Manitoba Infrastructure Development Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, there are many questions being asked in northern Manitoba about the credibility and the priorities of this government that has gone from a $10-million commitment to an arena in Winnipeg to save the Winnipeg Jets to $37 million plus whatever tax breaks will be involved. It particularly comes from communities that do not even have the most basic of services such as sewer and water, many of which are under the jurisdiction of the Department of Northern Affairs-so the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) gets that straight when I ask this question. I would like to ask the Premier how he can justify finding this additional money for a professional hockey team and an arena in Winnipeg and at the same time not provide funding for sewer, water and other basic services in northern communities. Hon. Darren Pramik (Minister of Northern Affairs): Madam Speaker, I find the question from the member most interesting, because in my brief tenure as Minister of Northern Affairs, I have had the privilege of attending the opening of new water facilities in a number of communities.

I have to ask, in the many years in which the member for Thompson has been an MLA representing northern Manitoba, why, when northern Manitoba has had New Democratic Party MLAs in government for many years, we are still having to put in basic water and sewers in a number of communities when that party in government did not make those communities a priority. Mr. Ashton: With a supplementary, and again, to the Premier (Mr.

Filmon), why has this government failed throughout its mandate to sign and negotiate a northern development agreement, when we are now seeing that some of the funds that will be going to the arena in Winnipeg will be coming from development agreements? Why is this government not signing a development agreement in northern Manitoba that will bring sewer and water to those communities? Mr. Pramik: Madam Speaker, let us put this into perspective again around northern Manitoba. The member for Thompson may like agreements, northern development agreements. I remember working for the federal government, for a federal

84 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May25, 1995 minister, on the Northern Development Agreement. I remember how many stores changed hands under that agreement and very little got done. Let us remember, we have a new representative for Flin Flon. I hope he takes note of the millions of dollars that this government, that this party, committed to ensure that his constituents have jobs in that constituency. Let us look at the Northern Flood Agreement that this government has brought along to almost completion when it sat with nothing done for years of New Democratic Party rule.

Let us look at the many projects that have been done in the last seven years and the ones that we intend to complete over the next four, and I think the record speaks very loudly on accomplishments, although the members of the New Democratic Party will never admit it. Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, my final supplementary is again to the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

I would like to ask the Premier, since he is now indicating that he has some interest in northern Manitoba, at least according to Winnipeg Sun reports, that he has actually even travelled to northern Manitoba, when will he make a commitment, as we now enter the next century, to have money allocated for sewer and water in communities that do not have that service, instead of a brand new arena to save a professional hockey team? Let us get our priorities straight, Madam Speaker. Mr. Praznik: Yes, Madam Speaker, it is a matter of getting priorities straight.

I can tell this House that when the member opposite was in government, those priorities he talks about today were not being done, and it took this party in government to move towards doing them. I can tell this House, as well, that on a steady annual basis with the resources available community by community, we are getting done the jobs that New Democrats failed to do in northern Manitoba in all the years they were in government in this province. Flood Compensation Statistics Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources.

Thousands of residents living in communities along the Assiniboine River have anxiously watched over the past month as water levels rose, damaging their land. Last month, in fact, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) toured some of affected areas, and, even so, I was surprised to hear in the throne speech that the flooding challenge has been successfully met by the provincial government. What are the predicted damages of flooding expected to be, and what percentage of costs will be picked up by the provinces? Hon.

Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the member it was not only the Premier who was on that flight. It was also myself, as well as the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey), as well as the member for Roblin-Russell (Mr. Derkach) who was on that flight, and we had a first-hand glimpse or look at what was happening out there with the flooding. The government has set up a deputies committee that is basically looking at working with the concerns of the flood area The Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board is out there already working.

The last meeting we had, I think, was yesterday with the committee meeting that we had, and the municipalities have given this government accolades for moving as fast as they have. I might inform the member that the flood is not over yet, so in terms of establishing how much damage there is, once the waters have receded, we will be on top of it. I am prepared, at that time, to give a figure as to exactly what has happened. Mr. Struthers: Madam Speaker, when, then, will the minister be able to give a definitive figure on provincial contributions and how long will this process take?

May25, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 85 Mr. Driedger: Madam Speaker, as soon as the floodwaters are down, we will have established a figure. I will then make it available. Coverage Levels Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Is the minister reviewing the limits of coverage compensation, which in many cases will be just a fraction of the losses in property damage? Bon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the member that this is not the first time Manitobans have experienced a flood.

We have various things in place that deal with it on a step-by-step basis from within government with the various departments. This flood was not a surprise to us. We anticipated this already early on, prior to spring breakup, that we were going to have water problems in a certain area. We had everything in place, as we have done in the past.

As this thing evolves, and fmally comes down to the point of some conclusion, I will be able to make available the kind of money that is available to the individuals who are affected, either through the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board, through the EMO, the cost-sharing arrangements we have with the feds, and the obligation that the provincial government, the Premier (Mr. Filmon), has given to the flood-prone areas that said, basically, we would be there as a province to try and assist them. *

(1430) Point Douglas Constituency Bank Closures Mr. George Bickes (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Urban Affairs concerning the closure of a second bank in Point Douglas, causing great difficulties for seniors and many other people in this area. Has the minister met with the representatives of the bank to attempt to delay or postpone this closure, which is the second bank in one year in Point Douglas? Bon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the honourable member for Point Douglas for my first question.

In regard to the banking in his constituency, I am not aware that there is another bank closed in that constituency. I will do some evaluation, take the question as notice and possibly get back to the member as soon as possible on the ramifications and some of the things that might be affected, not only the constituency but his neighbourhood. Winnipeg Development Agreement Employment Creation Mr. George Bickes (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, for the minister, the bank is closing on June 2, and it is the Toronto Dominion Bank.

I would like to ask the minister, since so many jobs are being lost in the inner city that residents are unable to buy homes or take out loans, will the Winnipeg Development Agreement begin operation before more banks are closed in the inner city? Try and speed up that Winnipeg Development Agreement to get more people in the inner city working so that we can use the banks here. Bon.

Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): I can rest assured with the member that jobs and the creation of jobs are of a high priority within this government, and it is shown that the best type of work program is good jobs within a community. I can possibly meet with the member, and we can try to discuss ways of meeting with the community if there is problem in trying to get a resolve towards some sort of direction, not only for the lost jobs within the bank, but also how it will affect the ripple effect throughout his community. Mr.

Bickes: Madam Speaker, why has this government not acted to address inner-city needs such as deteriorating services and closure of banks, instead of putting millions of dollars into the construction of luxury boxes at the new arena that banks and other corporations can use for tax write-offs?

86 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1995 Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, I think, as mentioned previously, the creation of jobs and the fact that this government has made it a high priority in trying to make available the availability for people to bring forth their ideas to develop the community, to be involved with the community on an ongoing basis, is something that I think is an indication of our government towards trying to be involved with a positive direction for economic growth . In the association of his community, we can work towards some sort of meeting, if he is agreeab le.

We can try to get it resolved towards some of the problems that he is addressing. Agriculture Industries Diversification Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, in the last few months, Manitoba farmers saw $85 million vanish from the economy with the loss of the Crow rate . This devastating loss follows four consecutive years of cuts in the provincial Agriculture budget. Although the government refused to put pressure on the federal government when they elimin ated the Crow benefit, they did promise farmers relief in the form of a $1 0-million agriculture diversification fund in the election .

I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture, now that the campaign is over, can the minister explain why there is no mention of this vital farm support program and why there is no mention of a provincial agriculture strategy in the provincial throne speech? Bon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, let me be very clear. Thanks to the work done by my predecessor and the support that he had in this government, a very signifi cant budget increase was afforded the difficulties that farmers and agriculture face.

I will be more than pleased, during the discussion of my Estimat es, to indicate just how signifi cant the financial contribution of the GRIP program and other support safety -net programs were to the farmers of Manitoba at a time of need. Madam Speaker, specifically to the questions about ongoing support, that is I think an appropriate discussion to have during the discussion of my Estimates.

There have been movements, a broadening of the whole farm safety programs that is being advanced by Minister Goodale from Ottawa, expansion of the NISA program to different livestock producers currently not now covered under that program . So I am more than prepared to discuss these issues with her in the discussion on the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture. Ms. Wowchuk: I was asking the minister specifically about a program that was announced in the election.

However, I want to ask the minister now what steps they will take to ensure that farmers have the educational training and supports they need to diversify, since we have seen a cutback in all agricultural programs. Farmers have to have the ability to take courses. Will this government take some acti on to ensure that farmers also have supports, not only hockey players? Mr. Enns: Madam Speaker, this question affords me the opportunity to solicit support from the honourable member for Swan River to ensure that what she asked for does in fact happen.

Firstly, there are many ag encies, including the Department of Agriculture, that are providing that kind of extension work and education work, that are preparing our farmers for the changes in agriculture .

Among the specific requests the farm community has is that they are allowed to be participants in some of this extension work and some of this research work, notably through check-off legislation that is being requested, for instance, by the canota producers of the province of Manitoba that have made that crop the cinderella crop, in fact, one of the bright spots as even reported on the front pages of the Free Press not so long ago about the importance and significance of that crop to Manitoba.

May 25, 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY QF MANITOBA 87 So, Madam Speaker, Manitoba farmers will face the challenges, will meet them and will see a brighter future for agriculture in the coming years. Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, the minister should remember that the cinder ella crop was developed- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member, please put your supplementary question now. Ms.

Wowchuk: Will this government give assurances that they are prepared to support research for farmers as they diversify so we can further crops such as the cinderella crop that was developed through provincial and federal funding for research? Mr. Eons: Madam Speaker, yes. Immigration Agreement Status Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): It goes to show, Madam Speaker, if you are patient and persi stent- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Does the honourable member have a question? Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, there was a Memorandum of Understanding that was signed by this government last year, and that Memorandum of Understanding was in hopes of trying to achieve a bi lateral imm igration agreement, something that is very important to Manitob a. It contributes to our social fabric, our economic fabric. It is important that Manitoba achieve that bila teral agr eement. We were supposed to achieve that bilateral agreement by March 1. My question to the Minister responsible for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, can he give us progress on the bilateral agreement?

When can we anticipate that that bila teral agreement will be complete ? Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I am pleased to have my first question from the member for Inkster. I can tell him that the officials of this department are in Ottawa today meeting with federal officials. We have been trying to move forward with this program. We are not getting a lot of co-operation out of the Liberal government in Ottawa.

In fact, some of the agreements we thought we had have been changed with the introduction of a head tax, with the introduction of bonds, things that the federal minister seems to be going out on his own to do. We are not in favour of some of the direction that the federal government has taken on immigra tion. We are hopeful that we can get an agreement, but we are not getting a lot of co-operation from the federal bureaucrats at this time. * (1 440) Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I am interested in the bila teral agreement. I am not- Madam Speaker: Order, please.

I remind the honourable member for Inkster, I think he knows the rules full well. Supplementary questions, there is no postam ble or

preamble. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I am wondering if the minister can indicate to this House what this government believes is the optimum number of immigrants, classifications of immigrants that Manitoba can sustain in any given year. Can the minister indicate to this House today what that number is? Mr. Gilleshammer: The immigration agreement that we are att empting to negotiate with the federal government deals with a lot of different aspects, and I look forward perhaps to Estimates when we can get into this discussion.

We are trying to negotiate the levels and the mix of immigrants that would come to Manitoba We want to have more say in the recruitment and selection of immigrants . We want more support in dealing with the settlement issues . We have always state d that Manitoba wants their fair share of immigrants up to 4 percent of the numbers who are coming into the country.

88 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 19 95 Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I would ask the minister to reconsider the approach possibly in terms of what he is arguing for. You should not be arguing for- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member for Inkster pose his question now, please. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, would the minister not agree that it does not make sense to argue for a percentage of the overall population of immi grants coming to Canada? What the minister should be arguing for is what number, what is Manitoba's optimum number- Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Please pose your question. This is neither a time for debate nor posta mble. Mr. Lamoureux: To the minister, would the minister not agree that it makes more sense to ask for what is the optimum number of imm igrants that Manitoba can sustain in any given year? Mr. Gilleshammer: We want to achieve the levels of imm igrati on that we have historical ly had over the last 10 years. We are trying to work with a federal government which continues to put roadblocks in the way for immigrants to come to this country .

I would urge the member for Inkster to talk to some of his federal cousins, particularly those who represent that area of the city. I know the Prime Minister does tend to punish some of the members who do not agree with him, but I would suggest that perhaps Mr. Pagtakhan could use his influence.

You could talk with him to see if perhaps the federal minister could be a little more understanding and instead of imposing a head tax and an exorbita nt bond that discou rages immigration to this country, the member perhaps could do something very positive to see that there is more immigration to Canada and to Manitoba North Winnipeg YM-YWCA Funding Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): The north branch of the YM-YWCA of Winnipeg is an important recreation facility in our communi ty. It has a nursery school, daycare, lif e skills program and Night Hoops.

It serves many low-income people, thanks to a generous subsidy from the United Way. Unfortunately, it is being closed or supposed to be closed on June 30 of this year. I would like to ask the First Minis ter- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would you quickly pose your question. Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the First Mini ster-since he grew up in the north end, he may have been a user of the North Y -if he is prepared to find some money to help keep the doors open. He found $37 million for the Jets. Can he find $200,000 for renovations at the North Y? Bon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, yes, indeed, I did frequent the North Winnipeg Y when I was much younger. In fact, I probably honed my basketball skills there several summ ers playing endlessly day after day after day. Unfortunately, the funding for facilities such as the Y s is one that comes under normal community-based support, memberships and all of the various things that go into that support facility such as the Y. Madam Speaker, I will take that question as notice and see if there are any instances in which funding is provided for facilities such as regional Ys.

I will get back to the member when I determ ine whether or not that is something that has ever been done in the past. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Third Day of Debate) Madam Speaker: To resume debate on the proposed motion of the honourable member for Riel (Mr. Newman) for an address to His Honour the Li eutenant Governor in answer to his speech at the opening of session, and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the official opposition in amendment thereto .

May 25, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 89 Mr. Mike Radcliffe (River Heights): Madam . Speaker, it is a pleasure for me today to have the opportunity to rise and speak to our government's Speech from the Throne. I would first like to begin by extending my congratulations to you as the new Speaker. The respect and experience you gained during your time as Deputy Speaker of this House will serve us all very well as we proceed to conduct the business of our government. Just as all members have benefited from the parliamentary excellence of the honourable member for Gladstone (Mr.

Rocan), your presence will ensure that we are well guided and assisted in our roles. As for my presence here today, I owe a great amount of thanks to the people from River Heights. The residents of River Heights form an outstanding community committed to their neighbourhoods, dedicated to their community well-being. The people of River Heights are active leaders in strengthening our province and our country. The people of River Heights are also seriously committed to the democratic process resulting in an exemplary voter turnout of over 80 percent, among the highest in Canada.

The recent provincial election campaign is an outstanding example of how River Heights voters devote time and energy to examining the issues that face us as Manitobans. Madam Speaker, the people of River Heights are well versed on vital matters such as job creation, health care, education renewal. I had the opportunity while walking the streets of River Heights to conduct many conversations on these subjects with the citizens of River Heights. On all fronts, the vision of our government and our plan to realize these ideals provided the assurance that River Heights residents sought.

The exceptional standards set by our Premier (Mr. Filmon) for the conduct of government were in complete harmony with the expectations of River Heights residents. In selecting our government as the stewards of Manitoba's future, River Heights residents chose a plan founded on a record of stable, sensible and steady rebuilding of our economic platform. The work of our government since 19 88, innovative, thoughtful and in sync with the pace of Manitoba life poised us for a most crucial turning point.

The balanced budget position attained by our government in partnership with all Manitobans was welcomed as the eagerly sought end to the debilitating legacy of debt and irresponsibility that we had suffered. (Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) An Honourable Member: Where did we get that from? Mr. Radcliffe: At the hands of the prior government of the members opposite. The balanced budget legislation soon to be introduced will serve to fortify our gains. Mr. Acting Speaker, River Heights residents, like citizens throughout Manitoba, embrace protection from future financial fiascos.

Freedom from the wantonness that tethers our capabilities and plunges our province into the expensive task of setting things right is what our citizens seriously seek. In tandem with the outstanding achievement of a balanced budget, River Heights residents appreciate our government's record of the longest-running tax freeze in North America. Founded on this record of success, our government's pledge to continue the tax freeze for a record total of 11 years met with complete confidence in our government's ability to do just that. Manitobans have enthusiastically renewed our government's mandate.

This foundation of confidence that Manitobans have in our government is the crucial base upon which our vision for the future will blossom. This is a future bright with vibrant job growth in secure sustainable fields. Job growth that is focused, that builds on our talents and strengths. Job growth that provides every opportunity for Manitobans young and old, new and returning and lifelong to build security and well-being for themselves and their families. * (14 50) The people of River Heights are to be congratulated for their tireless contribution to job creation. Over 300

90 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 19 95 retail shops and services join with over 600 home based businesses in River Heights to fuel the economic engine and spur employment opportunities far beyond the boundary of our community. River Heights residents enjoy a strong work ethic, a precious inheritance from their grandparents and their great-grandparents who came to Manitoba from lands far away. Our family histories are rich with men and women who pioneered and toiled in our inf ant province.

The people of River Heights can take special pride in Manitoba's !2 5th anniversary with the knowledge that their past generations played an important role in building our province. As we all look forward to the next generation, security and well-being remain at the forefront of our thoughts . We are in a world full of change and challenge . The actions of governments far from our province struggling with their own debts and hindered by their late starts impact Manitoba in many ways. The extrem ist vision of the federal government, as a very significant example, offioads a tremendous burden onto Manito bans.

The blow dealt to our agricultural sector will reverberate throughout our entire province impeding the progress that our province has worked so hard to enjoy and so richly deserves. Fortunately, regard less of the outside forces that bear down upon us as a province, we have a determination and a talent for taking care of ourselves and those in need. Our spirit of generosity, our compassion for each other, our will to help and our commitment to wellness is very much alive. Within River Heights there are countl ess community leaders who devote innumerable volunteer hours to the important work of helping.

They are helping families in distress, helping a senior take care of her home, helping a middle-aged man to learn to read, helping a daycare centre to repair their play structure, helping out at the community club. We like to help. That is why for people in River Heights and people throughout Manitoba the most important component in any government's vision is how they intend to help in helping Manitobans point to three priority areas: health, education and family services. Our government's record on health care is exemplary.

At 34 percent of the budget our commitment to health care is the highest of any province in Canada Our courage to include all partners in the process of strengthe ning and improving this immense system has earned our government respect around the globe and, most importantly, at home. Our strategy to shift health care from an institutional to a community focus opens the door to the ideas of talents, resources and inspira tions .

Ready, willing and eager to help, our government's vision of health care is especially important to our maturing residents in River Heights as it supports their wish to remain in their homes, in their neighbourhood, both as valued and vibrant members of our community. Mr. Acting Speaker, in River Heights there is a particularly passio nate interest in educati on. Parents simply want their children to learn to their fullest potential, to be capable, confident and self-sufficient graduates, literate in the basic skills in the new techno logies.

Parents want to participa te in developing the plans and stra tegies for realizing excellence in education. They want choice, a respect for access to schooling that is enhanced with teaching about their faith or their culture. Our government's fair commitment to funding educational choice is soundly applauded in River Heigh ts. Thanks to the help of a devoted. community, the new Jewish campus will offer students a learning environment enriched with their faith. This is just one example of our government's investment in learning that will reap tremendous benefits to our province for many genera tions to come. Mr.

Acting Speaker, people in River Heights, like all Manitobans, also place great importance on our families. We want our families to be safe and secure, a place where our children can grow and thr ive. The strong direction of our government in co-ordinating the services that contribute directly to family wellness finds many supporters in River Heights. A well-managed, straight-f orward child and family support system means that resources go directly to rebuilding families in distres s.

May 25, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 91 Safety and security in our neighbourhoods and on our streets is equally paramount. Under the direction of the honourable member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey), our government got tough on crime. The Holiday Inn atmosphere in our jails and detention centres has been replaced with a work schedule, year-round schooling and community service pro jects. Residents at the Manitoba Youth Centre now provide valuable help to nonprofit organizations in a variety of on-site, volunteer assignments.

I am told that over 2,600 International Year of the Family volunteer recognition certificates were promptly and profess ionally processed by Youth Centre volunteers. Clear consequences for crime, coupled with activities that teach alternative uses for pent-up energy and talents, is an approach that has gained worldwide merit. Mr. Acting Speaker, our government is also moving decisively into the maintenance enforcement area The devastation to families denied their economic security through vexatious avoidance of support payments impacts on our entire province.

The faulters can look forward to our government's vigilance in realizing the same measure of zero tolerance that drinking drivers or domestic abusers encounter. Mr. Acting Speaker, our government's message is clear, and our goal is straightforward. Our vision is to make Manitoba the best place anywhere in which to live, to work, to invest and to raise a family. It is a vision backed up by a province rich with history, a citizenry alive with talent, and a terrain blooming with natural resources. It is a vision backed by a government that is unparalleled in its maturity, sensitivity and innovation.

It is a vision of leaders. To River Heights residents and Manitobans, it is also the vision that has been made possible thanks to the leadership of one very special person in our government. Manitobans know that we are blessed to have someone of the calibre and capability of our honourable first member working for us. Mr. Acting Speaker, when Manitobans need help, when there is a tough issue, when there is a complex problem, all eyes turn towards our Premier (Mr. Filmon). We look to him for help, and without exception he and his government have been there for Manitoba.

As a member of this House, I was deeply puzzled by the bitter attack on our honourable first member by the Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer) regarding our government's support of the unprecedented Manitoba drive to save the Jets. Had the member in question not clearly heard the plea from Manitobans throughout this province for the honourable first member to take a leadership role? Had the member failed to understand that this was an issue that reached far beyond playing hockey, that this was about our capabilities, our sense of worth, our ability to achieve?

Does the member not understand that, when Manitobans say they want to try and they want their government to help, a good government does help? * (15 00) Perhaps the member is unconsciously harbouring an envy of our government and the flexibility it has achieved through careful planning so that we can respond to changing circumstances and public will. Perhaps the member is feeling sheepish with a government of his ilk in provinces where hospitals are closing in dozen lots could not begin to master the capacity that our government has built up for contingencies just like these. Mr.

Acting Speaker, while I remain puzzled about the member's rationale for his attack on Manitoba's courage to try, I am not at all puzzled by the decision of Manitobans to keep him out of the honourable first member's chair. I may also be puzzled about the Leader of the official opposition for quite a different reason related to the first time that I had the opportunity of sharing his company, and I remember that moment very well. It was in a home of a fine River Heights citizen, a well-known community leader.

I was summoned to this gathering as the president of an association that all members on the government side of the House belonged to. The purpose of that meeting was to meet a young man with hopes of furthering his electoral aspirations as a member from River Heights under a banner as vibrant and breathtaking as the clear blue Manitoba sky. Mr. Acting Speaker, the young man was none other than the person who is now the Leader of the official opposition. Shortly after our meeting, he

92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 19 95 switched to a banner with a hue similar to our splendid Manitoba sunsets, and I recall being relieved. I knew River Heights could do much better. I am most humbled by the tremendous vote of support which River Heights residents have honoured me. Their confidence in my abilities to serve were in companionship with their deep respect and support for our honourable first member and his government. I worked very hard to be an MLA, and I was able to achieve this goal thanks to the thousands of hours of volunteer help in River Heights.

There are hundreds of River Heights residents committed to the democratic process, and they are what makes Manitoba strong. What makes me strong and filled with the herculean stamina one needs to be the lead participant in the electoral process is my family. Every step of the way, my wife, Linda, and our sons, Chris and Tim, were the life and love that I could always turn to at the end of a long day. Their caring, their nurturing and their support were my constant companions during my rather extended electoral process.

Now that the people of River Heights have invested a great confidence and trust in me, I look so forward to working hard as their MLA. With enthusiasm and thoughtfulness, River Heights residents from every perspective took time to share their views, raise important issues and provide vulnerable insight into what matters most to our community. Mr. Acting Speaker, every meeting, every debate, discussion and forum was a tremendous learning experience as community leaders and Grade 5 students alike told me what they stand for and what they will not stand for.

To continue the dialogue so crucial to forming a bond with those whom I serve, I have opened a constituency office. Over the coming months, it will grow as a community gathering place as the location for good ideas and exchanges. It will be a focal point for information from government and community for all to access. I am also now well settled into my Legislative office. The welcoming process for new MLAs, I must advise, is outstanding. Government members have eagerly shared the ins and outs of the life here in the building.

The staff have done a yeoman's job of setting up new offices, installing telephones, distributing parking passes and explaining the security system. The Clerk of the Legislative Assembly and his team have, with great proficiency, introduced the rookies to the intricacies ofHouse business. Mr. Acting Speaker, there is a special camaraderie that develops among all newcomers in these extensive procedural training classes. While there are dry spells in these sessions, they are often punctuated with lively questioning from the keeners.

One new member's discourse was particularly spirited, eloquently reflecting a true commitment to and respect for elected office. I like that person, the new member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk). While we may differ in our views and the paths we choose to deliver good government to Manitobans, I look forward to working hard with all members of the Legislative Assembly on behalf of our wonderful province. I thank all members for their attentiveness and interest in my speaking to our government's Speech from the Throne. During the elective process, I gained the affectionate name of Windy.

However, today I am honoured to be here to share these words and to do so as a strong voice for River Heights in the newly elected government of our outstanding Leader, the honourable first member. Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Mr. Acting Speaker, I wish to begin my inaugural address by observing tradition and congratulating Madam Speaker on her election as Speaker of the House. The position is an historic and memorable one which encompasses the solemn responsibility of protecting the sovereignty of this legislative body, a duty which I am sure she will honour.

Personally, I am gratified to see a woman as Speaker following in the footsteps of Myrna Phillips for, as I ruefully note; women are still not full and equal participants in our society. Her appointment may well be a glimmer in the darkness. Certainly, as she assumes her duties she has the blessings of this Legislature. I ask that in return she view us all through the equal eye of fair play, tolerance and good humour, and I ask her special indulgence for

May 25, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 93 the newly elected members of this Legislature, at least during our initiatory period. As well, I take this opportunity to extend my compliments to the honourable member for St Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) on his appointment as Deputy Speaker. I know we can count on his judicious counsel in conducting the business of the House. I want to assure Madam Speaker and also the Deputy Speaker of my complete co-operation. I am honoured to serve in this House, and I thank the people of Osborne for electing me.

I am honoured too by their faith and trust and I commit myself to proving worthy. I would like to pay tribute to my opponents in Osborne for their impeccable conduct and commendable opposition during the provincial election campaign. Osborne, I believe, was the only constituency with three female candidates, and the fact that this was barely noticed, indeed viewed as nearly normal, is both consequential and auspicious. Naturally the candidates were delighted. * (15 10) Mr. Acting Speaker, the Osborne constituency lies immediately south of this Legislative Assembly. just over the Osborne Street Bridge.

The Assiniboine River is Osborne's northern boundary, while a bend in the Red allows that river to be both the southern and the eastern boundaries. Finally, our western edge is Daly Street, with a small parcel of land tucked in just west of the Corydon-Osborne-Pembina interchange. The CN mainline and Pembina Highway divide Osborne into two distinct geographical areas-the north and the south. Osborne's north end, dominated by apartments with a sprinkling of older homes, is among the most deJ;tSely populated areas in Canada.

The southern stretch, Lord Roberts and Riverview, is primarily a residential area where families are likely to own their own homes. These areas have a dash of country in that some families have lived in them for several generations. Young people return to start new families so that Osborne is home to many sets of great-grandparents, grandparents, parents and children. Coming home to live and raise children is an Osborne tradition. We are blessed as well in the southern part of our constituency with several parks.

The centrepiece, Churchill Park, defined by the dykes from the 19 50 flood, follows the Red River for several kilometres and all but links us to Winnipeg's historic Forks. The park has river access, bicycle paths, walkways, winter ski trails and sports fields. The riverbanks here boast some splendid river bottom forest which, in an era when budgetary priorities favour new bridges over garden green, is rapidly dwindling. Riverbank erosion, particularly during the past couple of years of high spring water and heavy rains, has not been addressed.

So much for vision and a little of Jerusalem in our home and native land. Osborne North has the odd tiny park but virtually no green space. They are developing community groups like the Osborne Village Residents' Association are lobbying for parks and for revitalizing the village's aging housing stock. Currently, the village area is enjoying a facelift : a water sculpture at the comer of Stradbrook and Osborne, and new bricks, benches, landscaping and signage along Osborne Street itself. The Osborne constituency is characterized by concerted and continuous community action.

Consequently, we have kept our local library, created progressive daycares, developed strong community centres and supported recycling and conservation projects. The concept of thinking globally and acting locally is alive and well in our constituency. For example, earlier this week, Sunday, May 21, many Osborne people participated in the twelfth annual AIDS candlelight vigil, an international event which simultaneously took place in cities across the world.

People gathered at Fort Rouge Park just across the river from where we now sit and walked to the Legislature in remembrance of those dead from AIDS and in solidarity with the 21 million women. men and children who live with HIV or with AIDS. In Osborne, we are proud of our energetic community boards, industrious school parent committees, keen business associations, conscientious neighbourhood groups and sound volunteer work, for

94 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1995 example, in schools, hospitals and personal care homes, religious institutions and community-based organiza tions. Nor do we restrict our community and volunteer work to Osborne . Rather, we acknowledge the interdependence with people across the province . We are proud of Osborne without being parochial. Osborne people value our mix of downtown and residential life. We enj oy proximity to the heart of the city and the arts community , coupled with the sense of neighbourhood and community solidarity.

Many of our streets are quiet and, in summer, almost pastoral with great green canopies of elms and elegant gardens. Most of us have deliber ately chosen to buck the migration to the suburb s, to combat urban blight and re ject urban sprawl. Our allegiance is to community within the core of the city. Many resident observe this commitment by both working and living in Osborne at the Riverview Health Centre, the Winnipeg Transit and local daycares or schools, in their own studios or in their own businesses. Osborne's historic St.

Augustine's Church, the Village church, is home to the Contemporary Dancers; the Popular Theatre Alliance perf orms in our Gas Station Theatre. We are famous for our artistic community. Many artists, musicians, writers, film makers and perf ormers live in the constituency and add to its character. Our busine sses, Mr. Acting Speaker, are a source of community pride and a testament to human ingenuity and creativity.

Osborne Village first established as a counterculture haven during the '60s, has passed through many phases but remains one of the most original and vibrant business districts in Winnipeg, with its restaurants, art galleries, craft shops, bookstores, specialty emporiums, ordinary and exotic food stores, as well as a growing number of community groups. Osborne Village combines bohemian colour and flamboyance, basic practicality and neighbourhood needs. Further south on Osborne, the offices and businesses are geared more to neighbourhood necessity.

Repairs and services, family restauran ts, antiques, offices, shoes, barbershops and hairdre ssers, local dentists, lawyers and doctors. Here business people know their customers by first name, another sign of familiarity and neighbour hood. Truly, Osborne, north and south, is a model that encourages future inner-city community life. Our parks and rivers are well used and accessible. A lucky early morning walker may spot foxes, rabbits, merlin falcons and beavers, columbines in spring and milkweed in summer. The older homes in the south are well maintained and those in the north are being refurbished.

We have several seniors' housing complexes, a centre for the deaf and the Riverview Health Centre . One of our five elementary schools, Lord Roberts, houses an integrated program for the handicapped under the title of the Ellen Douglas School. The other schools offer a variety of progra ms. Osborne has single-family dwellings, town houses, condominiums, a range of stores and businesses. It is a communi ty in process, intergenerational and interactive, stimulating, engaging and experimen tal. A multiplicity of possibilities means a host of lifestyle options.

Osborne too reflects the ethnic diversity of Manitoba, being home to aboriginal peoples, peoples from many Latin American coun tries, the Philippines, the Indian subcon tinent, Italy and Greec e, and this list is not exhaustive. Often these people must struggle to avoid the marginalizing hyphenated Canadian label and to maintain the integrity of their religious, cultural and linguistic heritages. Clearly the Manitoba flag of the 1990s no longer waves over a province neatly divided into English, French and Ukrainian, Christian, of course, with a nod to Jews and Icelanders.

A walk through an urban centre like Osborne Village demonstrates our racial, religious and ethnic diver sity. All Manitobans face the challenge of constructing communities commensurate with these transf ormations, ones which replace repressive archetypes and mainstream exclusivity with inclusive, respectabl� open-ended models. Put simply, the ghost of racism continues to haunt us and must be eradicated if we are to thrive as a community and as a provinc e.

May25, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 95 Osborne's differences are even more conspicuous in our socioeconomic divisions, and it is this point that I say with deep regret, that while life in Osborne works well for many, it does not work for everybody. The constituency includes scattered, hidden pockets of dire abject poverty where individuals and families live disenfranchised and silenced, living, as Henry David Thoreau called it, and I quote, lives of quiet desperation.

Many are single-parent families, usually headed by women, which does not surprise those of us familiar with the socioeconomic injustices characterizing the lives of many women and their children. Since 19 88, dreams of education and job training have receded. These single parents have no choice but the indignities of social assistance, hand-me-downs and food banks. Mr. Acting Speaker, often these people have endured only by sheer force of will and plain raw courage.

They want their children to live fuller lives, but since the supports necessary to move the families off social assistance are not available they fear their children will be another generation of welfare recipients. Manitoba in 19 95 has broken faith with these people. Increasingly, Osborne's poor includes the working poor, where two parents labour at insecure jobs for low hourly wages. For them trickle-down economic policies have meant drudgery at slavish tasks, perhaps more family violence and more children in care, certainly no luxuries nor hope of escape.

These people are John Kenneth Galbraith's underclass living amidst the culture of contentment. Their plight in the disparity between the underclass and the affluent is encapsulated in the current hockey fiasco. *

(1520) The Winnipeg Jets are promised a minimum of $37 million in provincial taxpayers' money while the working poor struggle just to keep afloat. Manitoba's social justice has been weighed in the balance and found wanting. Just think of this: A choice to live with nothing is renunciation, a mystical experience reserved for the saints, or so I am told, but when choice is removed renunciation becomes humiliation, an unjust and degrading imposition, we would all agree.

Another reality of Osborne's demography is the growing population of street kids and, I think it must be acknowledged, a growing reputation for panhandling, vandalism and violence. Some people in Osborne, especially seniors but not exclusively, are afraid to walk in the village day or night. Panhandling, merchants say, is interfering with business and some are moving to rival business centres. Several young people in both north and south Osborne have been viciously beaten, most recently on Friday, May 19, four houses from where I live. People see a direct link between the growing numbers of street kids and crime.

Whether the link is valid or not, it lives in public perception. Personally I want to distinguish between homeless kids who hang out in groups and gangs who attack others. They are not synonymous, or so I believe. Osborne is home to many young people who, for a variety of reasons, have fallen between the cracks. These kids often look strange, they frighten people, no surprise for some of them are frightening, mean, bitter and angry. Some are intimidating and confrontational. Most of them are victims themselves, doubly betrayed, rejected first by their families and then by their society.

Many have lost interest in customary orderly life and live on the street or in crash pads or put themselves at risk by trying to find a warm place to stay. Some form cliques and subcults, and with little education and few marketable skills, they beg on the street for their livelihoods. When begging does not work some steal. Most are good kids, but if they are to transform their lives and find places in the community they need leadership, guidance and support, and of course they need food and shelter. Community workers tell me that these kids might appear in droves this summer.

Whenever the weather is reasonable the first wave hangs out at the corner of River and Osborne. Yet the Youth Resource Centre at 161 Mayfair, which includes a shelter which is a project of Macdonald Youth Services, may be forced to close in late June because the project lacked stable, predictable funding. The very successful SKY Project, with its splendid art drop-in centre, closed down a couple of years ago.

96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May25, 19 95 Surely the first step in stemming youth violence is recognizing that young people need something to eat and a place to sleep. We know that violence and poverty, and let us throw in disease, are bunkmates and that Manitoba is the childhood poverty capital of Canada. Our current responses to street youth and poverty-nothing, nothing and then boot camp-is a failure of imagination and justice and simply will not work. The Osborne people I have talked to want to throw out the lifeline to our lost generation and work with government for a safer community . Mr.

Acting Speaker, the extreme northeast comer of Osborne has a very specific worry. Heavy traffic has transf ormed the Stradbrook-Mayfair area, home to many families, into an island surrounded by cars and trucks. Furthermore, once the Main Street-Norwood bridge is completed, the noise and air pollution may be into lerable and simply crossing the street may be dancing a minefield. Parents here fear that the local school, Fort Rouge, will be forced to close and that their children will be bussed elsewhere .

These people, like those in other localities, value neighbourhood schoolin g, believing that education close to home makes life easier for children and parents and fosters a sense of belonging, respo nsibility and civic pride. They wonder why there were no Clean Environment Commission hearings on the Norwood-Main Street bridg es. The hearings on the analogous Charleswood bridge had given them reason to trust that hearings would ensue, especially since the new Norwood-Main Street bridges will be twice the size of the Charleswood and will disrupt densely populated areas.

Inner-city Osborne people have concluded that, because they have no money, it is judged all right for them to live under a bridge, surrounded by loud noise and bad air, that their lives are not as valued as those of their suburban Charleswood cousins . Throughout the Osborne constituency, people are distressed by the drift toward two-tiered systems in health and in education. Seniors on fixed incomes and families worry about the costs and the availability of health care and Pharmacare. At best, people live in uncer tainty, and at worst, under the shadow of priva tization. Everyone has horror stories.

My cons tituents want their fears allayed and their confidence in Manitoba health restor ed. The situation in education is a parallel one. The public has watched helplessly while heavily endowed private schools flourish and underfunded public schools stagnate. So-called education ref orms have soured teachers, students and parents . Some families have sacrificed to send their children to private schools and others have nothing left to sacrifice and simply no choices. Some children continue to receive excellent educations in public school, but it is a matter of chance or committed shop-around parents .

Some parents do not have the time or energy to shop and others do not have the skills. In either case, children are the victims and children in inner-city communities -this means parts of Osborne- will suffer disproportionate ly. The writing is indisputably on the wall. Quality education in Manitoba is fast becoming the domain of the lucky and the privi leged. This is true whether we are talking about daycare, primary, secondary or post-secondary education. No wonder political cynicism is ripe and epidemic at a time of growing disparity between haves and have-nots.

Cuts to social services, health and education further jeopardize the lives of our poor citizens, those most in need of a social saf ety net. Coun ting on good hearts and charity, current practi ces sends these people to food banks and soup kitchens leaving politicians free to ponder arenas, bail out the Jets and hamstring, for example, post-secondary education. As the Canadian poet F .R. Scott so succinctly put it when characterizing another government, and here I quote: Let us raise up a temple to the cult of mediocrity. Do nothing by halves which can be done by quarters. End quote. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I come to politics by way of feminist thinking and theory and by way of the women's movement. I cut my political teeth on the ideas of John Stuart Mill, Virginia Woolf , Simone de Beauvoir, Germaine Greer, and, closer to home, Nellie McClung, Margaret Laurence and Nicole Brossard. I

May 25, 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 97 recognize my incredible good fortune as a member of the first generation of women to have what Virginia Woolf, brillia nt as always, named "A Room of One's Own." I recognize too my debt to my New Democratic predecessors and their supporters, both men and women. Like many women of my generation I joined my party in the knowledge that together we will build a society based on co-operati on, community and compassion. Furthe rmore, I believe that act ions are outward and visible signs of an evolving political conscious ness.

I am proud of my gras sroots accomplishments, my work in education, social services, health and communit ies. These are the visible signs of my evolving political consciousness. At this point, Mr. Acting Speaker, I return to my beginnings, to the Osborne constitue ncy. One of my very early memories is visiting my father when he was working on the dikes in the 19 50 flood. We took him some tea and some sandwiches down to the Elm Park bridge which remains part of Osborne. This was my first close encounter with the flood, and the only one I remember.

To my utt er astonishment I saw huge trees and small outbuildings and finally a house come tumbling down the river, but the men did not miss a beat. They just kept on sandbagg ing, building the dike and pushing the river to subside so that they could go home. Most of Osborne, you see, was under water. My current house was, or so the oldtimers tell me. * (1 530) These men were struggling for their homes and community and had no time to watch the river, but Osborne surf aced, recovered from the flood and saw the rainbow as Osborne people always will.

We are a tough breed, and here I mention by way of ill ustrati on one of our tougher expatriates, the Leader of the Opposition and honourable member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), who frrst saw light on Rathgar Street right in the heart of Osborne. Mr. Acting Speaker, a few years ago I saw an NFB film on prairie women of the 19 30s, those tireless, hard-working, hard-fighting women who helped get the country through the Great Depression. When one of the women was asked if she had any regrets, she said, well, yes, I have been in rooms where I knew what needed to be said and I did not always say it.

When we do not speak, writes the poet Audrey Lord, our silence is heard as a scent and used against us. When we do not speak our minds, we lose our ideas. When we do not speak our hearts, we break our spirit. Osborne is my community. My pledge to ·the Osborne people is th is: I will struggle to say what needs to be said wherever the room or whoever is in it. I will speak my mind and my heart, and in the best of New Democratic traditions, I will speak for and with the voice of Osborne's people. Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Mr.

Acting Speaker, I want to add my voice, as is traditional in the House, to those of other members who have congratulated the Speaker on her election and the Deputy Speaker on his election, to the returning Pages for their service to us all and to all members who have worked hard in their election campaigns and who have gained sufficient support to sit among us here. I look forward to a long association with all of my colleagues and a learning curve which, for me at least, I think is fairly st eep.

I have a lot to learn and I look forward to that process along particularly with the members of the back bench of the opposite members and my own colleagues here on our side of the House. It is a great honour and a privilege to begin a term of service in any legisla tive assembly in any democratic country in the world. The British Commonwealth of Nations has a rich tradition and we are immensely privileged as members to be part of that tradition, and I am very conscious of the long history that brings us here today and that will continue long after we have ceased to be members, and I am proud to have a tiny

part in that very rich history. I want to thank the voters of Crescentwood for entrusting me with the responsibility of representing all of them, and I will try to do that, to represent all of them fairly and honestly and forthrightly in the House. I say this in spite of the cynicism towards things political which I sometimes met at the door and I am

98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1995 sure all members here met at least several times in their door knocking during this past recent election. People in the general public, I think, have some right to be cynical, and I would hope that one achievement that this House might point to at the end of its sitting would be that that level of cynicism had been at least somewhat diminished by the actions of all members of this House. There is much more, however, than simply diminishing public cynicism to do, and I welcome the chance to work with all members to strengthen the fabric of our province.

In responding to the Speech from the Throne, I am reminded of something my grea t-uncle said to me. He was really my father during the time when my father was overseas serving in the second war, and he said that if you have nothing much to say, at least be brief . I commend the members opposite for that. They did not have much to say, but they were at least brief. In responding to my first opportunity to speak on a throne speech, I will attempt to canvass a range of issues that are in the previous Speech from the Throne and in this very brief one which we have just heard.

First, though, to touch on Crescentwood, it is in many respects, as are many ridings in this city, a model of urban Manitoba. Fully half of our residents live in apartment buildings, and the turnover rate in those apartment buildings is over 30 percent a year on avera ge, so we have half of our community a very transient community, many of them students who come to attend our universities, Winnipeg and Manitoba, and College Saint-Boniface. They are finding it very difficult to continue their studies in the current situation of cutbacks and rising tuition fees.

I look forward to the actions of the Minister of Education (Mrs . Mcintosh), as she hopefully begins to addre ss those very serious issues which are causing numbers of young people to not be able to attend our community colleges and our universities. More than 20 percent of our members in the Crescentwood area are senior citizens over the age of 65. This is a rate which Manitoba is slowly approaching but which only in some rural areas has now achieved, so seniors in our area are a particularly important community. They fear this government's actions on medicare .

They fear the federal government's actions on pensions. They are, I think, being undeservedly attacked. They are, after all, the people who built this country, the people who are concerned about the medicare of the country. They were concerned to bring that in. They were concerned to bring in the kind of post-secondary education systems that benefit us all and, now, in their declining years, in their golden years they are facing the end of medicare, not something which I welcome and I hope not something which the members opposite welcome.

We also span the income gamut from the wealth of Wellington Crescent, homes of numbers ofManitoba's senators and former opponents of the Senate, leaders of the Conservative and Liberal parties, horne to our wealthiest families and a great deal of our corporate history, the old Ashdown home, for example, now the Masonic temple, horne now to a lovely stretch of rivers ide parkland, as Winnipeg slowly regains public access to our river heritage.

As you move south in our riding, we come quickly to the older streets full of rooming houses, which look quite pleasant from the street, but when you get inside you find they have been subdivided into 18 and 20 single rooms. They may barely meet the fire standards of this city, but I would not want to be in one that caught on fire, let met tell you. They are not pleasant places. They do provide housing for ver y-low-income people, of which there are many in our riding.

We are served by community clubs like the community club of Earl Grey, in which hundreds of volunteers make life in that community more pleasant for their children, for their families and provide a base for community social action. I want to share one particular group's work with the house and that is the Earl Grey Neighbourhood Safety Association. This association serves a triangle of community between Harrow on the west and Pembina on the east and covers down into the member for Osborne's (Ms. McGifford) riding down into the Roslyn are a. These are all volunteers.

Their total budget for a year is less than $1 ,000, and yet they have performed safety

May 25, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 99 audits throughout the entire neighbour hood. Block by block they have audited the safety of this community . They have looked at the site lines in terms of areas where people might hide. They have looked at lane lighting; they have looked at all of the issues of urban safety and addressed a good number of them. They have incre dible tenacity. One proj ect at a time they have strengthened our community, strengthened its safety, strengthe ned the ability of citizens to feel safe as they go about their daily business.

I would say to the members opposite that when they are concerned about crime and community safety they could do no better than to talk to the Earl Grey Neighbourhood Safety Association and say, what do you really do if you want to strengthen a community. What you really do is you get involved with those who live there. You get involved with the young people. You look at the opportuni ties to make the community a safer place, and you act on those opportunities with community co-operation.

You do not talk about boot camps and jail doors slamm ing shut You reduce the opportunities and the supporting environment in which crime can take place. Focusing on the criminal is simply looking at symptoms of opportunity instead of dealing with the real underlying problems. I commend to all members of the House the work of that safety association. Our schools, partly in Fort Garry and partly in Winnipeg School Division No. 1, are staffed by competent and caring teachers.

They engage large numbers of our students and their parents in innovative programs to help children to make sense out of their lives. * (1 540) I share a story shared with me by a principal of Winnipeg School Division No. 1 who talked of a 'ittle boy who was walking by her office carr ying a clipboard. He was in Grade 1, and he was just a little guy. She said: Sammy, where are you going? He said: I am a conflict mediator. He was referring to the fact that that school has trained and put in place some 25 students in Grades 6, 7 and 8 as conflict mediators.

They have learned how to gently intervene in a situation and say: Wait a minute . Now are there some alternatives to having a fight here? Are there some alternatives to the kinds of activities which we read about sometimes in the paper? Are there alternatives to confronta tion? These 25 children, well-trained, competent conflict mediators, have not only done something fundamentally valuable themselves. They have become role models for the little kids. When peacemakers become role models, Mr.

Acting Speaker, I say we have made a great achievement, and the schools of Winnipeg have made a great achievement when peacekeepers become role models for small children. We are home also to two high schools, Kelvin and Grant Park, and my experience in those schools is that the students of those schools are better equipped than the students of our generation ever were to encounter and interact with their world.

I do not share the doom and-gloom views of the former Minister of Education, and I sincerely hope that the new minister will adopt a far more positive approach to building on the strengths of our system instead of tearing at its roots. I have tried to show a few examples of some of those streng ths. There are countless more. Build on the strengths, Mr. Acting Speaker. Do not tear at the roots. To the south and west in our riding are newer homes built in the '40s, '50s and '60s, and many of the residen ts of those homes have been there since they were built.

It is a very stable community, deeply concerned about preservation of their neighbourh oods. Very slowly they are turning over as new resid ents move in to rep lace those who are moving out into retirement communitie s. A regional mall, Grant Park, is a magnet for shoppers as well as a major employer, albeit with many low paid, part-time and seasonal jobs. Then moving south across the CNR tracks we come to the community in which I live, the community of Fort Garry. Unfortuna tely, the riding I represent is called Crescen twood, but about a third of it is really in Fort Garry.

I do not know whether there is any mechanism to do this, Mr. Acting Speaker, but it would be very nice for the residents of Fort Garry if our community could be recognized as the constituency of

100 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1995 Crescentwood-Fort Garry . It would be much more accurately reflecting those who are there. I have lived there for some 30 years since I came to Winnipeg on one of the streets-actually it is a very famous street. It is one of two streets that has not been paved. We petition every several years to keep it that way because it slows the traffic down. Throughout this riding that I represent, Mr.

Acting Speaker, there are shops and businesses, major industries, Manitoba Hydro, the Liquor Control Commission, at least the initial head of the Pollard printing business and many other major industries, many small service industries and many consumer shops. In fact, the employment base in the riding that I represent is considerably larger than the workforce to which it is home. Within this riding there are many of the problems that are so evident in Manitoba today. I visited with over 7,000 households during the election, and I was saddened by the evident poverty in significant sections of our community.

I heard over and over again from those who had lost jobs when they were in their late 40s, early 50s, late 50s. They were not lazy people. They were not people who did not work hard at their job. They were displaced. They had never worked again. Behind some of the nice-looking facades of homes in east Fort Garry, for example, live people who have been unemployed for three and four years now, are living on their savings, are living on their RRSPs, are not able to keep their homes up. Those homes are going to come on the market.

Those families are going to go into retirement impoverished, not because, as some neoconservatives assert, they are not willing to work but because there is no work to be had. There are no jobs out there that will hire people of that age. They would rather hire somebody younger. Like so many, they have followed all the rules. They have taken extra courses. They have gone back to school. They have sent out resumes by the bundle. One woman said to me, I have sent out 700 resumes. She was a person with significant skill.

She had had good jobs all her lif e, but the company she had served had downsized, in that famous phras e. She asked her community Employment and Immigration counsellor if there was an allowance for stamps. She had spent almost $300 on stamps simply sending out resumes. They followed all the rules. They have been willing to reduce their expectations. They have been willing to work at anything, but at the end of the day, there is no work. Let me make common cause with those who say that when push comes to shove human capital is more important than financial capital.

This is the position of the Roman Catholic church, of my church, the Anglican church, of every other mainstream church of which I am aware. Human capital, that is the economic term for people and their skills and abilities, is more important, has a higher precedence and more value than financial capital.

In other words, it would be better to have 100 percent of the people who want paid employment working 90 percent of the time at decent secure jobs than to have 80 percent of the people who need employment scrabbling 11 0 percent ofthe time at poorly paid jobs while capital maintains their reserve army of the unemployed with which to beat labour into submission. In 1770, at the beginning of the industrial revolution, rural folk in England and Scotland were being forced off the land by the closures, various clear ances.

Oliver Goldsmith wrote in the Deserted Village the following wor ds: ill fares the land, to hastening ills a prey, where riches increase but the folk decay. This is what we are seeing acro ss our land and in the faces of the young and the discouraged, of which my colleague for Osborne spoke so eloquently a few moments ago. They played by the rules but the rules have let them down, often down into deep despair.

I think of the Newfoundland fishers who listened to the experts instead of to their own deep knowledge of the sea and are now marooned on shore likely for the rest of their lives, while offshore factory trawlers still continue to strip mine the sea. I think of the young people who worked hard and stayed in school but cannot find a decent job, of the older people who believed that they were building a secure future for themselves and for their families only to hear that

May25, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 101 medicare and their pensions may be things of the past in only a very few short years. I want to say in particular that I have sat in this gallery while the former Minister of Health, Mr. Orchard, and the former Finance minister said that those of us who knew the mathematics of federal/provincial transf ers and said the transfers are falling and will go to zero, they said we could not do math. They said down was up. They said less was more, but now today they seem to now understand math. Even Mr.

Axworthy points in his book to a declining line and says, see, the transfers are running out. We pointed out that they were running out in 19 85 when we were government. We fought the campaign across the country to inform Canadians that the consequences of the Conservative cuts to health care and education were the eventual end of all those transf ers. Only one other government did their homework, the government of Quebec. Two other governments published after the fact a position paper, New Brunswick and Newf oundland, and finally said yes, there is some danger here. Over 10 years, Mr.

Mulroney's government and now Mr. Chretien's government have gutted the ability of the federal government to have any say in health standards in this country. We are on a very fast track to the end of all fiscal transf ers for health and higher education. By the end of 1997-98, there will be but $3 billion left in federal cash transfers for health and higher education. That is less than half of 1 percent of Canada's gross domestic product. That, Mr. Acting Speaker, is a scandal.

It is obscene when a country cannot commit more than half of 1 percent of its GDP from the federal government to maintain its health care system. That is a shame, yet wealth accumulates. * (1 550) I think of the farmers who stayed on the land as agribusiness moved in and made them essentially serf s in their own community, of aboriginal people who got an education, who sought work only to encounter racism, of the wood lot operators who practise sustainable yield forestry only to have clear cutters move in and swathe the forests even into our provincial parklands, yet wealth accumulates.

Canada and Manitoba's gross domestic products are bigger than ever and the wealth is less fairly distributed than ever. Mr. Acting Speaker, we forget to our peril that society is both fragile and very strong. When it has a sense of purp ose, a sense ofhope for its future, no force on earth can prevent the achievement of great things. I watched with both sadness and pride much of the V -E Day celebrations in Holland. My father, like many other fathers represented I am sure in this House by sons and daughters, was part of the liberation of that lovely land from Nazi tyrann y.

He brought home with him a book filled with pictures from Holland, pictures from before and after the war. Whenever I began to think that war was somehow a glorified activity, a thing of pride, he would say to me: go and get the book out; go and take another look at the book. That was my first exposure to people who had died of starvation, of torture , of the wounds of war.

The Dutch people with their very strong sense of history have nurtured in themselves and especially in their children an astonishing level of understanding of the war, of the high costs of tyranny and of liberation, yet we in our country teach our own history somewhat poorly. So often our young people are adrift without a real memory of their past. To cite but one example, we teach virtually nothing of the history of either our enterpr ises or our labour movement. We teach virtually nothing of the history of our social contracts evolution. We teach nothing about medicare .

Even nurses that I used to teach at the University of Manitoba do not know where medicare came from . They do not know our own history. Only very recently have we begun to teach the true history of our aboriginal and Metis people, with their role in weaving our collective stories. Without a sense of memory, Mr. Acting Speaker, there cannot be hope. Hope comes from a sense of memory.

102 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1995 When the unspoken but very, very real contract that undergirds the sense of memory and hope and purpose weakens or disappears, then chaos is just around the comer. The Bible captures this understanding very clearly in the saying that without a vision the people perish. Perhaps our recent sad history with the Winnipeg Jets is a case study. On the one side are th

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-1-3
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 1st hansardpdf 3.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	cb6b68313f15abdfcac21bb5375cd45d1fc144f9

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