British Columbia Hansard — 14 August 2020, p.m., Issue 360 (41st Parliament, 5th Session)

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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session, 41st Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES (HANSARD) Friday, August 14, 2020 Afternoon Sitting Issue No. 360 THE HONOURABLE DARRYL PLECAS, SPEAKER ISSN 1499-2175

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Janet Austin, OBC Fifth Session, 41st Parliament SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Darryl Plecas EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................... Hon. John Horgan Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance............................................................................................................................Hon.

Carole James Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Training..................................................................................................... Hon. Melanie Mark Minister of Agriculture.........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Lana Popham Attorney General.................................................................................................................................................................Hon.

David Eby, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ............................................................................................................ Hon. Katrine Conroy Minister of State for Child Care...................................................................................................................................... Hon. Katrina Chen Minister of Citizens’ Services...................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Anne Kang Minister of Education ............................................................................................................................................................ Hon. Rob Fleming Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources ..................................................................................................... Hon. Bruce Ralston Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy............................................................................................. Hon.

George Heyman Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development ..............................................Hon. Doug Donaldson Minister of Health .....................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Adrian Dix Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ......................................................................................................... Hon.

Scott Fraser Minister of Jobs, Economic Development and Competitiveness.............................................................................Hon. Michelle Mungall Minister of State for Trade...............................................................................................................................................Hon. George Chow Minister of Labour ...................................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Harry Bains Minister of Mental Health and Addictions............................................................................................................................ Hon. Judy Darcy Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.................................................................................................................. Hon. Selina Robinson Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ........................................................................................................... Hon.

Mike Farnworth Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction..............................................................................................Hon. Shane Simpson Minister of Tourism, Arts and Culture.....................................................................................................................................Hon. Lisa Beare Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure................................................................................................................ Hon.

Claire Trevena LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition................................................................................................................................Andrew Wilkinson, QC Leader of the Third Party .................................................................................................................................................................Adam Olsen Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................................................................................

Raj Chouhan Assistant Deputy Speaker............................................................................................................................................................. Simon Gibson Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ................................................................................................................ Spencer Chandra Herbert Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...........................................................................................................................................

Kate Ryan-Lloyd Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel.............................................................................................................................. Seunghee Suzie Seo Clerk Assistant, Parliamentary Services...........................................................................................................................

Artour Sogomonian Clerk Assistant, Committees and Interparliamentary Relations ..............................................................................................Susan Sourial Senior Research Analyst ................................................................................................................................................................. Jennifer Arril Senior Research Analyst ...................................................................................................................................................................

Karan Riarh Acting Sergeant-at-Arms..................................................................................................................................................................Greg Nelson

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal) ......................................................................... Penticton Bains, Hon. Harry (NDP)................................................................ Surrey-Newton Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) .....................................................Cariboo-Chilcotin Beare, Hon. Lisa (NDP)..............................................

Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Begg, Garry (NDP) .......................................................................Surrey-Guildford Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) .........................................................Peace River South Bond, Shirley (BC Liberal)...........................................Prince George–Valemount Brar, Jagrup (NDP).......................................................................Surrey-Fleetwood Cadieux, Stephanie (BC Liberal)........................................................

Surrey South Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) .......................................Vancouver–West End Chen, Hon. Katrina (NDP)...................................................... Burnaby-Lougheed Chouhan, Raj (NDP) .................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Chow, Hon. George (NDP).................................................Vancouver-Fraserview Clovechok, Doug (BC Liberal) ..................................Columbia River–Revelstoke Coleman, Rich (BC Liberal) ................................................................ Langley East Conroy, Hon.

Katrine (NDP)...........................................................Kootenay West Darcy, Hon. Judy (NDP) ............................................................. New Westminster Davies, Dan (BC Liberal) ........................................................... Peace River North de Jong, Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ..............................................Abbotsford West Dean, Mitzi (NDP)................................................................ Esquimalt-Metchosin D’Eith, Bob (NDP) ................................................................Maple Ridge–Mission Dix, Hon.

Adrian (NDP)....................................................... Vancouver-Kingsway Donaldson, Hon. Doug (NDP)...................................................................... Stikine Eby, Hon. David, QC (NDP).............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Elmore, Mable (NDP).........................................................Vancouver-Kensington Farnworth, Hon. Mike (NDP) ........................................................Port Coquitlam Fleming, Hon. Rob (NDP) ......................................................

Victoria–Swan Lake Foster, Eric (BC Liberal).............................................................Vernon-Monashee Fraser, Hon. Scott (NDP) ..................................................Mid Island–Pacific Rim Furstenau, Sonia (BC Green Party) .............................................Cowichan Valley Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...................................................Abbotsford-Mission Glumac, Rick (NDP).........................................................Port Moody–Coquitlam Heyman, Hon. George (NDP) ................................................Vancouver-Fairview Horgan, Hon.

John (NDP) ................................................ Langford–Juan de Fuca Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ........................................................ Surrey-Cloverdale Isaacs, Joan (BC Liberal) .......................................... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain James, Hon. Carole (NDP).................................................... Victoria–Beacon Hill Johal, Jas (BC Liberal).................................................Richmond-Queensborough Kahlon, Ravi (NDP)............................................................................... Delta North Kang, Hon.

Anne (NDP)......................................................... Burnaby–Deer Lake Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal)..............................................................................Shuswap Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) .............................................. Boundary-Similkameen Lee, Michael (BC Liberal) ........................................................Vancouver-Langara Leonard, Ronna-Rae (NDP) ..................................................... Courtenay-Comox Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal).............................................

Kelowna–Lake Country Ma, Bowinn (NDP) .....................................................North Vancouver–Lonsdale Malcolmson, Sheila (NDP) ........................................................................Nanaimo Mark, Hon. Melanie (NDP) .......................................Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Martin, John (BC Liberal)....................................................................... Chilliwack Milobar, Peter (BC Liberal)..................................... Kamloops–North Thompson Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ........................................... Prince George–Mackenzie Mungall, Hon.

Michelle (NDP)......................................................Nelson-Creston Oakes, Coralee (BC Liberal) ............................................................ Cariboo North Olsen, Adam (BC Green Party)............................ Saanich North and the Islands Paton, Ian (BC Liberal).......................................................................... Delta South Plecas, Hon. Darryl (Ind.) ........................................................... Abbotsford South Polak, Mary (BC Liberal) ............................................................................. Langley Popham, Hon.

Lana (NDP)............................................................... Saanich South Ralston, Hon. Bruce (NDP) ............................................................Surrey-Whalley Redies, Tracy (BC Liberal) .......................................................Surrey–White Rock Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ................................................. Richmond South Centre Rice, Jennifer (NDP) ............................................................................. North Coast Robinson, Hon.

Selina (NDP) .........................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Ross, Ellis (BC Liberal)................................................................................... Skeena Routledge, Janet (NDP) ....................................................................Burnaby North Routley, Doug (NDP) ................................................. Nanaimo–North Cowichan Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ................................................................Nechako Lakes Shypitka, Tom (BC Liberal) ..............................................................

Kootenay East Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ......................................... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Hon. Shane (NDP)..................................................Vancouver-Hastings Sims, Jinny (NDP) ........................................................................ Surrey-Panorama Singh, Rachna (NDP) .........................................................Surrey–Green Timbers Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal) ................................................................. Kelowna West Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal)...............................................

Parksville-Qualicum Stone, Todd (BC Liberal)..........................................Kamloops–South Thompson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal)........................................ West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal)................................................ Vancouver–False Creek Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal) ...........................................West Vancouver–Capilano Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ................................................................. Fraser-Nicola Thomson, Steve (BC Liberal)......................................................

Kelowna-Mission Thornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...............................North Vancouver–Seymour Throness, Laurie (BC Liberal) .......................................................Chilliwack-Kent Trevena, Hon. Claire (NDP) ................................................................North Island Wat, Teresa (BC Liberal) ................................................. Richmond North Centre Weaver, Dr.

Andrew (Ind.)................................................Oak Bay–Gordon Head Wilkinson, Andrew, QC (BC Liberal) ................................Vancouver-Quilchena Y ap, John (BC Liberal)............................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Mission............................................................................Simon Gibson Abbotsford South....................................................................... Hon. Darryl Plecas Abbotsford West......................................................................

Michael de Jong, QC Boundary-Similkameen...................................................................... Linda Larson Burnaby–Deer Lake....................................................................... Hon. Anne Kang Burnaby-Edmonds................................................................................Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Lougheed .................................................................... Hon. Katrina Chen Burnaby North .................................................................................

Janet Routledge Cariboo-Chilcotin .............................................................................Donna Barnett Cariboo North.................................................................................... Coralee Oakes Chilliwack ............................................................................................... John Martin Chilliwack-Kent ...............................................................................Laurie Throness Columbia River–Revelstoke .........................................................

Doug Clovechok Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.................................................................. Joan Isaacs Coquitlam-Maillardville ...................................................... Hon. Selina Robinson Courtenay-Comox................................................................... Ronna-Rae Leonard Cowichan Valley .............................................................................

Sonia Furstenau Delta North.............................................................................................Ravi Kahlon Delta South ..................................................................................................Ian Paton Esquimalt-Metchosin ..............................................................................Mitzi Dean Fraser-Nicola .........................................................................................

Jackie Tegart Kamloops–North Thompson .............................................................Peter Milobar Kamloops–South Thompson..................................................................Todd Stone Kelowna–Lake Country .....................................................................Norm Letnick Kelowna-Mission ..............................................................................

Steve Thomson Kelowna West ..........................................................................................Ben Stewart Kootenay East.......................................................................................Tom Shypitka Kootenay West........................................................................ Hon. Katrine Conroy Langford–Juan de Fuca .............................................................. Hon. John Horgan Langley .....................................................................................................

Mary Polak Langley East.........................................................................................Rich Coleman Maple Ridge–Mission.............................................................................. Bob D’Eith Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows............................................................Hon. Lisa Beare Mid Island–Pacific Rim................................................................ Hon. Scott Fraser Nanaimo......................................................................................

Sheila Malcolmson Nanaimo–North Cowichan............................................................... Doug Routley Nechako Lakes........................................................................................ John Rustad Nelson-Creston ................................................................... Hon. Michelle Mungall New Westminster........................................................................... Hon. Judy Darcy North Coast ...........................................................................................

Jennifer Rice North Island.............................................................................. Hon. Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale................................................................... Bowinn Ma North Vancouver–Seymour........................................................Jane Thornthwaite Oak Bay–Gordon Head............................................................Dr.

Andrew Weaver Parksville-Qualicum.......................................................................Michelle Stilwell Peace River North ................................................................................... Dan Davies Peace River South ................................................................................ Mike Bernier Penticton ................................................................................................. Dan Ashton Port Coquitlam...................................................................... Hon.

Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Coquitlam.......................................................................Rick Glumac Powell River–Sunshine Coast....................................................... Nicholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie....................................................................Mike Morris Prince George–Valemount ..................................................................

Shirley Bond Richmond North Centre..........................................................................Teresa Wat Richmond-Queensborough.........................................................................Jas Johal Richmond South Centre ......................................................................... Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ...................................................................................

John Y ap Saanich North and the Islands .............................................................Adam Olsen Saanich South .............................................................................Hon. Lana Popham Shuswap...................................................................................................... Greg Kyllo Skeena........................................................................................................... Ellis Ross Stikine....................................................................................Hon.

Doug Donaldson Surrey-Cloverdale ................................................................................ Marvin Hunt Surrey-Fleetwood.....................................................................................Jagrup Brar Surrey–Green Timbers........................................................................Rachna Singh Surrey-Guildford......................................................................................Garry Begg Surrey-Newton ..............................................................................Hon.

Harry Bains Surrey-Panorama ...................................................................................... Jinny Sims Surrey South ................................................................................ Stephanie Cadieux Surrey-Whalley ......................................................................... Hon. Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock .............................................................................. Tracy Redies Vancouver-Fairview.............................................................. Hon.

George Heyman Vancouver–False Creek........................................................................ Sam Sullivan Vancouver-Fraserview...............................................................Hon. George Chow Vancouver-Hastings ............................................................... Hon. Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington....................................................................... Mable Elmore Vancouver-Kingsway..................................................................... Hon.

Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara................................................................................ Michael Lee Vancouver–Mount Pleasant..................................................... Hon. Melanie Mark Vancouver–Point Grey ............................................................Hon.

David Eby, QC Vancouver-Quilchena........................................................Andrew Wilkinson, QC Vancouver–West End .....................................................Spencer Chandra Herbert Vernon-Monashee ....................................................................................Eric Foster Victoria–Beacon Hill.................................................................. Hon. Carole James Victoria–Swan Lake.................................................................... Hon. Rob Fleming West Vancouver–Capilano...................................................................

Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky................................................................Jordan Sturdy Party Standings: BC Liberal 42; NDP 41; Independent 2; BC Green Party 2

CONTENTS Friday, August 14, 2020 Afternoon Sitting Page Routine Business Introductions by Members................................................................................................................................................... 12457 Orders of the Day Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................................................................ 12457 Estimates: Office of the Premier(continued) A. Wilkinson Hon. J.

Horgan Estimates: Legislative Assembly Estimates: Officers of the Legislature Supply Motions...................................................................................................................................................................... 12478 Reports of resolutions from Committee of Supply Funds granted for public service Hon. C. James Introduction and First Reading of Bills.............................................................................................................................. 12479 Bill 25 — Supply Act, 2020–2021 Hon. C.

James Second Reading of Bills ........................................................................................................................................................ 12479 Bill 25 — Supply Act, 2020–2021 Hon. C.

James Committee of the Whole House.......................................................................................................................................... 12479 Bill 25 — Supply Act, 2020–2021 Report and Third Reading of Bills....................................................................................................................................... 12479 Bill 25 — Supply Act, 2020–2021 Royal Assent to Bills.............................................................................................................................................................. 12479 Bill 2 — Motor Vehicle Amendment Act, 2020 Bill 4 — Budget Measures Implementation Act, 2020 Bill 5 — Employment Standards Amendment Act, 2020 Bill 6 — Mines Amendment Act, 2020 Bill 11 — Attorney General Statutes (Vehicle Insurance) Amendment Act, 2020 Bill 13 — Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, 2020 Bill 14 — Municipal Affairs and Housing Statutes Amendment Act (No. 2), 2020 Bill 18 — Economic Stabilization (COVID-19) Act Bill 20 — Motor Vehicle Amendment Act (No. 2), 2020 Bill 21 — Wills, Estates and Succession Amendment Act, 2020 Bill 23 — Workers Compensation Amendment Act, 2020 Bill 24 — Municipalities Enabling and Validating (No. 4) Amendment Act, 2020 Bill 25 — Supply Act, 2020–2021

FRIDAY , AUGUST 14, 2020 The House met at 1:33 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Routine Business Introductions by Members D. Davies:Good afternoon, everyone. It gives me great pleasure to welcome and introduce Gurdeep Pandher, who came to Canada in 2006 and settled in Whitehorse, Yukon in 2012. He is an IT specialist, but he shares his passion, which everybody knows now, of bhangra, a traditional form of dance from the Punjab region of India, which he started learning when he was 17.

Many members of the Legislature as well as the staff had the opportunity this afternoon to join in the rotunda for a bhangra lesson. It’s definitely a physical workout that I did not expect. When the COVID-19 pandemic hit, Gurdeep started offering his dance classes online. He has taught hundreds of people virtually from his cabin near Lake Laberge. Gurdeep has travelled to British Columbia here to see his parents, who live in Abbotsford, and to spread his message of happiness, diversity and caring.

It is a pleasure to welcome Gurdeep to the Legislature today to share this message of positivity during this chal- lenging time that we’re all facing. Would the House please make Gurdeep feel welcome. Orders of the Day Hon. M. Farnworth:In this chamber, I call continued debate on the estimates of the Office of the Premier. Committee of Supply ESTIMATES: OFFICE OF THE PREMIER (continued) The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); R. Chouhan in the chair. The committee met at 1:35 p.m. On Vote 11: Office of the Premier, $11,334,000 (continued).

The Chair:Members, before we start the questions and answers again, a reminder to all people that all questions must be asked through the Chair and answered through the Chair as well. A. Wilkinson:Before the break, we were talking about the concerns of the Tŝilhqot’in First Nation about the Bill 17 energy bill. It would have allowed dirty American nuc- lear and coal power to come to British Columbia to replace power that was no longer coming from independent power producers, which are usually part and parcel of a First Nation enterprise. These concerns continued.

I have a letter from the shíshálh First Nation dated August 4, 2020, in which they say: “Our community greatly values the ability to build industrial development that contributes meaningfully to self-determination.

The proposed amendments would instead export those jobs and investments to the United States. ” They go on to say on another topic: “Y our stated policy on community benefits agreements contradicts the amendments your government has tabled in the Legis- lature for the clean energy sector. ” The First Nations Leadership Council goes on to say: “The proposed Clean Energy Act amendments will have a detrimental environmental impact by providing the gov- ernment with discretion to self-define ‘clean energy’ and ‘clean resources’ to include any type of power production, including brown thermal generation, thereby opening the door to brown energy imports from Alberta or the U.S. ” The Tla-o-qui-aht First Nation said similar things. “Indigenous people in B.C. have built, operated and part- nered with industry to produce clean, made-in-B.C. power.

Those investments have generated revenue, jobs and opportunities throughout the province. Our com- munity greatly values the ability to build industrial devel- opment that contributes to self-determination. The pro- posed amendments would export those jobs and invest- ments to the United States. ” One gets the point. Dr. Judith Sayers, president of the First Nations council, says: “Every step the B.C. government takes in clean energy is away from B.C. First Nations ability to develop power now and in the future. They are not listening to Nuu-chah-nulth’s desires to create clean energy for eco- nomic purposes.

They do support minor development on reserve, but that is not enough. Why is B.C. trying to stifle entrepreneurship, especially First Nation entrepren- eurship?” A good question, Premier. Hon. J. Horgan:I thank the member for the question, which we ended up on prior to the break. I think it’s important that the House understand that Bill 17 is on the order paper. It remains there. It will be part and parcel of the next session of the House when we begin debates again. On the principles of consultation, I want to advise members that the province began engagements with First Nations on phase 2 of B.C.

Hydro’s review in September of 2019. Interjection. 12457

Hon. J. Horgan:That’s a component part of that, my friend. The interim report included a proposal to remove self- sufficiency requirements. That release came out, of course, in March of 2020. Further engagement with Indigenous peoples went throughout May. In-person regional discus- sions in Terrace. Five teleconferences and sessions in Kam- loops, Kelowna, Prince George, Nanaimo and Vancouver. Two webinars. Twenty-six individual online meetings and teleconferences. Twenty-two written submissions. We heard from over 80 First Nations and Indigenous organizations. Some in support of self-sufficiency, some not.

All of that was taken into account, and Bill 17 remains on the order paper. [1:40 p.m.] I think the Leader of the Opposition is missing the broader point about where we are in the energy markets in British Columbia and, broadly speaking, in North Amer- ica. We have an abundance of clean, green energy in Brit- ish Columbia. Almost 99 percent of the energy produced in British Columbia comes from clean sources. It is our strength. It gives us market power in North America.

Most analysts understand that when they look at our ability to hold water in our reservoirs and buy, on the mar- ket, solar power, wind power — which is in surplus in the United States at this time. It makes economic sense to take advantage of our market power and use our strength through our reservoirs that were built up over decades to make sure British Columbia could be dominant in hydro- electric energy in North America. The former government, in its wisdom, put in place a clean energy policy that prohibited B.C.

Hydro, which has an export arm called Powerex that plays the market on behalf of British Columbians, taking advantage of low-cost energy when energy is at its highest point here in British Columbia. There was a report commissioned some years ago that identified $16 billion in additional costs as a result of the self-sufficiency program. We have engaged with Indigenous peoples. No contracts that currently exist have been affected. Any contracts that were underway or in negotiation are being fulfilled. There has not been a clean call for energy in British Columbia since 2008.

That’s the previous government’s record. We are awash in energy, hon. Members. We are doing our level best to keep costs down for consumers. We want to make sure that people are not paying the costs of bad policy decisions. The self-sufficiency policy was a bad policy brought in at a time when the world was filling with clean, green opportunities — solar, wind, in California particularly. Our market dominance allows us to buy that clean, green power at a discount and bring it into British Columbia so we can reduce costs for ratepay- ers. That has a lot to do with people and not a lot to do with anything else.

With respect to the Indigenous peoples who have got projects underway or projects completed, nothing changes. B.C. Hydro is committed to making sure that happens, and we’re going to reinforce that. A. Wilkinson:Well, that little diatribe on energy policy seems to be about ten years out of date. The Premier says he’s going to buy clean-only power from America. Amer- ican power is overwhelmingly produced by coal and nat- ural gas generation. It’s an integrated grid continent-wide except for Texas. So the Premier says: “No, we’ll skip that big nuclear plant in Richmond, Washington.

We’ll skip those huge coal plants though Wyoming and Colorado. We’ll just be selective and kind and nice, and only select the nice power from America. ” How naive can this Premier possibly be? British Col- umbia set out on a pathway to develop self-sufficiency in energy for a good reason: because we, along with Que- bec, are the biggest producers of hydro power on the con- tinent. We had vast amounts of further hydro capacity which involved opportunity for First Nations like never seen before. That’s exactly what happened.

Now the Premier says: “We’re awash in power, and it’s all going to be wasted somehow. ” Has he ever heard of electric cars? Ever? Has he not heard of the Indigenous efforts to build a solar power generation facility? Has he not heard of the concern amongst First Nations that the sole purpose of this bill is to give the government market power to turn down IPP renewals or to intimidate them into price reductions?

We go back to the statements from the First Nations — the indignation that in the wake of the UNDRIP legisla- tion last November, this Premier has the gall to stand up in this room and say: “Don’t worry about it; they’ll get over it. ” Well, that’s just the most condescending possible approach when we’re in an era of reconciliation.

Here we have the Energy Minister saying on July 28: “Government consulted widely on this proposal as part of the Hydro phase 2 review. ” Well we just heard a string of inputs, but the results speak for themselves in the strongly stated letters express- ing the indignation of Indigenous people all over British Columbia at the absolute double-cross by this government on one of the key issues that gives them prosperity: inde- pendent power projects. This government was prepared to stab them in the back in terms of bargaining position just before the IPPs come up for renewal.

That’s the essence of the lack of consultation. That’s the disrespect shown. [1:45 p.m.] Premier, it’s easy to fix this. It’s easy to come clean. All it takes is for this Premier to stand up in this House and say two things: “Bill 17 will be withdrawn. We were wrong. ” And that the government of British Columbia apologizes for violating the spirit of UNDRIP on the first available opportunity. Hon. J. Horgan:Well, look. Again, I appreciate that the hyperbole of the Leader of the Opposition is designed for 12458 British Columbia Debates Friday, August 14, 2020

purposes that are not known to me — certainly not to educate and inform people watching this debate today. We do know that we have surplus energy in British Colum- bia today. We have more energy than we can use. But we also know that it’s going to be critical to the greening of the economy, to meet our climate objectives which are laid out in CleanBC. Y es, I know there are electric cars, hon. Member, because the Minister of Finance had to top up the electric car incentive program three times in one calendar year. This is a popular initiative. Despite that, we remain in a surplus of electricity.

The bill required that any imported electricity be renewable and clean and green. It’s part of the bill. Y ou can go back and take a look at it. It’s part of the bill. We need to understand that the former government brought in a policy that said that regardless of the cost, B.C. Hydro can only buy energy from one place — that was within the confines of British Columbia. Now, if we were talking about ferries — only buying ferries construc- ted in British Columbia — that would make sense to me, because ferries are very big. They’re labour-intensive. Y ou can see a practical outcome.

Electrons are very, very small, and the generation of them from clean sources benefits all of us. Interjections. The Chair:Members. Hon. J. Horgan:The key to all of this, though, is that the people on the other side did not care about the cost… Interjections. The Chair:Members, the Premier has the floor. Hon. J. Horgan:…of their folly when it comes to the people of British Columbia, the ratepayers at B.C. Hydro. Some $16 billion above market was paid for power that we now have to move somewhere, and we can’t do that if B.C.

Hydro’s hands are tied. [1:50 p.m.] The initiative that we brought forward through Bill 17 was not designed to stifle entrepreneurship, quite the con- trary. It was designed to give flexibility to B.C. Hydro, the Crown corporation that belongs to all British Columbi- ans — not B.C. Liberals, all British Columbians — and designed to make sure we can keep costs down. What have we done in the three years we’ve been here? We not only have flattened the curve on COVID-19; we’ve flattened the curve on increases in hydro rates for people. The ten-year plan that the B.C.

Liberals had saw rates going up year after year after year. Since we’ve come to power, we’ve flattened that. We’ve brought rates down for people. We’ve gone to the Utilities Commission, and we now have applications put forward for Aboriginal or Indigen- ous utilities so that Indigenous Peoples can indeed have that independence and that autonomy through econom- ic development that they’re asking for in their corres- pondence. To attach to a policy that is very much outdated, hon.

Member, going back to 2005 with the energy market com- pletely transformed, to say that we must stay with that because it was Gordon Campbell’s idea is the wrong way. We’re taking input not from New Democrats, but from energy economists across North America saying British Columbia is in an enviable position because of our micro- hydro, because of our massive investments in large dams. We have an opportunity to play the market. I thought that the free-enterprisers would get this, but apparently it falls to me to explain to them how markets work. British Columbians… Interjections. The Chair:Members. Hon. J.

Horgan:…want us to make sure that the energy that we’re producing is as low-cost as possible. But the people on the other side want to control and manipulate the market. They want to disregard all of the teachings that they profess day after day and instead heap costs on the backs of people. We’re not prepared to do that. Will we work with Indi- genous Peoples to see economic opportunity? Y es, yes and yes. We’ve been doing that since the day we were sworn in. Every single member of my cabinet in their mandate letters have three things they need to focus on.

The UN declaration on the rights of Indigenous Peoples, passed in this Legislature — thankfully, unanimously by all mem- bers of this House — working to ensure that the Tŝil- hqot’in decision about rights and title is understood and recognized by every ministry — not just one or two; every ministry. That has been our focus, hon. Member. I will not apo- logize to the Leader of the Official Opposition for putting British Columbians first as we develop policies that take us into the future, not cling to their past. A.

Wilkinson:The pattern that’s evolved today is that when the Premier doesn’t want to answer a question, he gives a speech about something entirely unrelated. What does the Premier say to Judith Sayers of the Nuu- chah-nulth First Nations when she says: “They are not listening to Nuu-chah-nulth’s desires to create clean energy for economic purposes…. Why is B.C. trying to stifle entrepreneurship, especially First Nation entrepren- eurship?” It’s a simple question, Premier. In light of UNDRIP , is this your first gesture, to completely dismiss Judith Sayers? Friday, August 14, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12459

The Chair:Through the Chair, Member. [1:55 p.m.] Hon. J. Horgan:Well, again, firstly, micro-hydro is not the only opportunity for economic development in British Columbia. Every contract that is in place is being hon- oured. Every economic initiative that had a hydro com- ponent is being honoured by B.C. Hydro, whether the pro- ject comes to fruition or not. What we’re saying with the self-sufficiency policy is if anyone, not just Indigenous Peoples, but community power authorities, if they so create, or small entrepren- eurs…. If they can produce energy at competitive market prices, we’ll buy it.

That’s the principle here. I don’t know why the free enterprisers on the other side don’t under- stand that. We should not say to ratepayers across British Columbia: “Y ou’re going to have to pay a little bit more, because we want to buy power from this place at a price that’s above market rates. ” It’s really that simple. Do we want to engage with First Nations for economic opportunity? Absolutely. That’s why we’re working with the Tahltan. That’s why we’re working with the Ktunaxa with respect to mining reform in the northwest and in the southeast.

That’s why we’re working with the Car- rier and the Cheslatta in central British Columbia on forest reform on making sure that the pathway forward for Indigenous Peoples on their territory with their resources is shared equally. There’s a whole range of issues we’re working on each and every day. I appreciate it’s topical for the member to raise energy, but again, I have to remind him that he needs to go back and look at the record of his party when it comes to raising costs for people, Indigenous and non- Indigenous. If we direct B.C.

Hydro to only buy the most expensive power in the marketplace when there are other options available to us, we’re doing a disservice to millions of British Columbians. I’m not prepared to do that. A. Wilkinson:As we make the journey through life, I think all of us recognize that leadership’s a complicated business. It involves recognizing that nobody’s perfect. It involves recognizing errors.

Clearly, this government recognized it made an error when it took Bill 17 off the order paper for this session, because the government had made a serious blunder in insulting and degrading their relationship with First Nations all over British Columbia at the first available opportunity after signing UNDRIP . I’ve asked the Premier to apologize. He’s clearly refusing to do so. He’s refusing to recognize his error, engaging in this rambling economic diatribe when the issue is about respect.

It’s about the most human of relationships with the Tŝilhqot’in, with the Nuu-chah-nulth and with the Tse- shaht, who are blown off and ignored as they look at their communities and hope for the future. Given that the Premier is not inclined to apologize for anything no matter how obvious the blunder, let’s look at the

article in the VancouverProvince, because this will be a blunder that affects 640,000 students in British Colum- bia and a million parents, and it’s happening four weeks from today. The

article in theProvince dated August 5, ’20, said…. It’s written by two professors, one a professor emeritus, the other one a professor at UBC. The headline is: “B.C. ’s Schools Policy Is At Odds With Everything We Know So Far About the Science Of COVID Transmission. ” The subheadline: “By requiring parents to send their chil- dren back to in-person classes, the B.C. government is put- ting many lives in jeopardy. ” Some quotes. “B.C. ’s cases of COVID per day have more than tripled in the last two months….

No jurisdiction has reopened schools under such conditions. ” I should note that this was written nine days ago, and the COVID count has gone through a dramatic exponential increase since then, and those are just the ones we’ve found through test- ing. There are many more out there, Premier, and they’re waiting to be found. “B.C. is not only reopening its schools; it is effectively making attendance — indoors, for prolonged periods of time — mandat- ory…. By not allowing most existing schools a chance to offer a re- mote schooling option, the B.C. government is putting many lives in jeopardy.

One parent has already threatened to sue, and over 10,000 have signed a petition calling for classroom attendance to be optional, and with good reason. ” We should note that there was an active demonstration in front of the Health Minister’s office this morning by about 30 parents, led by a former NDP candidate, saying that this is absurd.

One of the signs said: “Six feet apart, not six feet under. ” Parents take this extremely seriously. [2:00 p.m.] I’ll carry on with the article. “B.C. ’s sudden reversal from allowing people to make wise de- cisions to forcing their hands into putting their children in jeop- ardy makes no medical sense. “We call on the government of British Columbia to provide the possibility of remote education to those who choose it and, for schools who wish to offer it, the possibility of offering it. Al- berta, Manitoba and Ontario are offering their citizens and schools choice, a mix of remote and in-person learning.

UBC will largely be remote in the fall, ” as will most universities and colleges. “There is no reason for British Columbia not to offer its children and their families and their teachers that same choice. ” This has been percolating for five months, and it affects every child in our province from the age of five to 18 and a million parents. Somehow, for some reason, this government couldn’t figure out that remote learning is a desirable thing.

The question, obviously, goes to the Premier: what on earth has happened that it takes demonstrations from par- ents in the streets to bring to attention this obvious issue of providing for remote learning — and more than just the platitudes of the Education Minister? This is remote learn- ing for any child who wants it and for the parents who need and want it. Why has it not been prepared for? Why is it not being offered? 12460 British Columbia Debates Friday, August 14, 2020

Hon. J. Horgan:I thank the member for his question. Look, this is an extremely stressful time for all British Columbians, but it’s a particularly stressful time for those who have school-aged children and those who work in the education system.

Hundreds of thousands of people are involved here, hundreds of thousands all across B.C., all coming at this from a different perspective, whether you’re a parent, whether you’re a child, whether you’re a teacher, whether you’re a support worker, whether you’re a superintendent, whether you’re an administrator, whether you’re a trustee duly elected in boards — 59 of them and, plus, the French board, all across British Columbia.

Not an easy answer to the questions that are being posed by the Leader of the Opposition, and I hope that he appre- ciates that. [2:05 p.m.] We have been doing our level best to take input from all sources. We have stakeholder groups across the province that include parents, teachers, the administrators and oth- ers that I’ve made reference to, all trying to find the way forward, trying to find that balance. If it’s a hybrid balance, that’s where we’ll go. When I talk about flexibility today, I hope that the Lead- er of the Opposition won’t just jump up then and criticize that, but that’s what we have to do.

We are in uncertain times, unprecedented times, and it requires us to be aware of what’s going on around us on a daily basis, to make sure we’re engaging with all of the people involved, to ensure we get the best outcomes possible for kids. How are we going to achieve that — $45 million going back into the system in midyear to ensure that we can have extensive cleaning in our classrooms, that we can have the PPE that’s needed for our kids, for our teachers and others within the system. But at the end of the day, virtual learning will not be the complete solution. I’m looking for my friend from Peace River North.

He’s not here at the moment. I know he’s in the precinct. What we’ve discovered through the COVID pandemic, as we’ve depended on Zoom technologies to communicate quite effectively across the province, is that connectivity in British Columbia is not what it could be. We have made significant investments. We will be making more invest- ments in connectivity to bring communities together so that we can have more virtual learning, virtual commerce and virtual interactions, but it is uneven across the province.

If I’ve heard it once, I’ve heard it a hundred times as I’ve been engaging with people throughout B.C.: the techno- logy is not even in every community. Similarly, all house- holds don’t have access to multiple terminals or multiple tablets for multiple children. So in families, there’s an uneven distribution of technology. Across the province, there’s an uneven distribution of technology to bring people together. We’re aware of it. We’re working on it. The private sector is helping in that regard as well. These are all bits of good news, but they’re all conspiring in the middle of a global pandemic.

We are committed to making sure that our kids are safe, and although I appreci- ate the views of the doctors that the Leader of the Oppos- ition read to me from their opinion piece, we’ve been tak- ing our advice from Dr. Henry and her public health team, which has done an extraordinary job. I know that all mem- bers acknowledge that. But that’s where we’re getting our advice from. We’re not making this up. We’re not forcing things on people. We’re looking at the evidence as it comes to us from Dr. Henry and her team. We’re making decisions.

The Minister of Education has been working with all of the stakeholders on a daily basis for months, and we’ll contin- ue to do so for the months ahead. That’s our priority. That’s our objective. And that’s what we’re going to realize. I do not discourage the members opposite from con- tinuing to press the issue. That’s absolutely their role. But I do hope that they will find a grain of that non-partisanship that we talked about not that long ago and acknowledge and recognize that when you’re dealing with hundreds of thousands of people right across British Columbia, there is not a one-size-fits-all answer.

And that’s why we’re work- ing hard to make sure we get it right, community by com- munity, school by school, child by child. A. Wilkinson:We just heard a stream of excuses. Four weeks today, 600,000 students are supposed to return to school. Every instructional day in British Columbia, the Ministry of Education spends $35 million to run the sys- tem. What we hear is an excuse. “Oh, connectivity is not great everywhere. ” Well, Premier, if you turn off Netflix during the daytime, there is lots of bandwidth for 98 per- cent of the province, and that’s where the students will be. Interjection. A.

Wilkinson:Well, the Premier asks for a letter. Surely, he would have looked into this in the last five months to figure it out for himself. Connectivity is an excuse, except in the most remote locations. They’ve been teaching school in remote parts of Australia by shortwave radio for the last 70 years. Connectivity is an excuse. The issue that not every child has access to technology — that could have been solved in the last five months. A good laptop costs 500 bucks, and this ministry spends $35 million a day — probably 70,000 laptops with one day’s budget. It’s time to focus on the results.

Time to focus less on the inputs and the excuses. The results could be catastro- phic — an outbreak in schools, particularly a high school; grandparents infected. [2:10 p.m.] The concern we all have is it’s pretty clear that this fall, as the number of cases increases, people are going to die. And it is so unnecessary for students to be vectors and conduits for disease when they could be learning Friday, August 14, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12461

remotely instead of exposing themselves and others to the risks of a lethal virus. The Premier talks of Dr. Henry. Well, here he seems to have forgotten what he said two days ago, on the 12th, in a press conference. He was asked by a reporter, in reference to a poll that indicated 50 percent of parents are not com- fortable with back-to-school planning and sending their kids back to school as planned…. Dr. Henry said: “Y eah, this is perhaps a question for the Premier. I will just say that, you know, my job is to provide the health framework.

I think that some of what you’re talking about reflects the concern we all have, you know, how this is going to work and wanting to know the details. ” And she handed the question back to the Premier. The Premier said — something he seems to have for- gotten in the last 48 hours: “ At the end of the day, the decisions rest with me and my government. ” Get the hardware. Y ou should’ve done that three months ago. Get the connectivity. It already exists for 98 percent of the population. Get the programs in place.

They’re already in use all over the province through independent distance learning, private schools, denominational schools — some schools that prefer to use distance learning. It’s already being used in every university and college in the province for 435,000 students this fall. There is no excuse about lack of curriculum, lack of hardware, lack of connectivity. It works for everybody else. Y et the Premier, when asked by the media about how this should be addressed….

The answer was somewhat alarming. “What can you say to parents to ease their concerns?” The Premier’s response: “I can’t help with the anxiety. ” Premier, you can. Y ou could’ve solved this problem. It’s incumbent on you to solve it before grandparents die and before people are knocked out of the workforce by illness and students abandon schools by the tens of thousands. It’s your responsibility. What are you going to do? The Chair:Through the Chair, Member. [2:15 p.m.] Hon. J. Horgan:I thank the member for his question. Listen, I fully appreciate the anxiety that people are feel- ing.

As a parent, I remember full well my spouse and I tak- ing our kids to their first day at class and the excitement and the apprehension that we felt. That was outside of a pandemic. That was in normal times. There is something about September. It’s something about the Labour Day weekend that reminds us all — adults, children and youth, all of us — about that return to something that we’re familiar with. That’s going back to school. This year will be drastically different than any other year we’ve ever experienced, not just in how we feel but what we see when we arrive at our classrooms.

Distance learn- ing will be an integral part of what we come up with as we go forward, what we work through in that first week with teachers, with support staff and then as the children start to come into the classroom. How will we go forward from here? Again, we have been relying on the extraordinary work of Dr. Henry and her public health officials — working with superintendents; working with CUPE, who keep the schools clean; working with a host of people in every corner of British Columbia to try and get this right. [2:20 p.m.] We will modify and improve as new information comes forward.

That’s appropriate, and that’s what British Colum- bians expect from us. Again, I realize that not everyone is going to agree. There are going to be those who just will not want to par- ticipate, and that is absolutely their right. There will be concessions and whatever attempts we can make to ensure that the children are getting the services they need in a way that’s comfortable for parents. That’s the commitment we’ve made as a government. That’s the commitment that I think all British Columbians expect from us.

We have to realize that the vast majority of British Col- umbians understand and recognize that going forward is what we need to do, not go backwards. Gord Lau from the DPAC in Vancouver — the district parent advisory council: “For me personally, Dr. Henry and the PHO have really earned my confidence, and I’m ready to send my kids back. ” Now, that’s the head of the district parent advis- ory council in Vancouver. There are going to be people within that PAC that dis- agree with that point of view — absolutely legitimate, absolutely appropriate for parents to put their children first.

But we cannot say that because there are some people who don’t want to proceed, we shouldn’t proceed at all. What we need to do…. The appropriate response is the response of the Minister of Education — continue to engage with people, continue to talk about how we can make the system safer and better for our kids, for those who work in the system. That’s what we’re doing, and we’ll continue to do that today, tomorrow, the day after that, right up into September and beyond because that’s what people expect of us, and appropriately so. A.

Wilkinson:Did I just hear the Premier say that par- ents who do not feel safe sending their children to school will be offered distance learning, yes or no? Hon. J. Horgan:There is home schooling. There are dis- tance learning opportunities. Seventy-some organizations offer that. It exists now. It will exist during the pandemic. A. Wilkinson:Well, that is probably the biggest insult to a million parents I’ve heard in British Columbia this year. Interjection. 12462 British Columbia Debates Friday, August 14, 2020

A. Wilkinson:And now the pugnacious Premier is call- ing me out for telling the truth. Mr. Chair, the Premier seems to want to step in the hallway and have a dispute. Interjection. Mr. Chair:The member has the floor, please. A. Wilkinson:We’re here to solve the problems in front of the people of British Columbia, on the record. The Pre- mier says: “Pull your child out of school for home school- ing. ” That’s not credible or sensible as a response.

The Pre- mier says: “Put your child into independent distance learning. ” Well, let’s hear from a parent about their experience with IDL, or independent distance learning, just this spring. Lori Stephan, from Duncan: “I’m writing this letter as a parent of two children with the in- dependent distance learning school system, with learning disabilit- ies, 16 and 13 years old, right during the end of the year, making us parents scramble, placing worry and fear, not only in us as adults but our children as well. The world is already upside down due to the pandemic.

This is because the Premier and his cabinet cut $12 million out of the funding on May 4, effective July 1, gutting the independent distance learning system at its most critical moment, when it’s needed throughout the province. ” As she says: “Many of the children who are receiving services are children with learning differences. The changes thrown at them during this time was a steep change for all. However, every one of my service providers is so helpful and kept the spirits of my children going, in spite of this government decision.

Y ou have stolen my time from what should have been focused on both of the kids. “The kids that you just cut funding for will be those kids who should be contributing members of society. Independent schools, at-home learning were created out of necessity. The children that did not fit the system learn differently and, I might add, are being very successful. “Distance learning and creating our diverse curriculum was not done out of thin air. Independent at-home learning schools gave my children hope. Now you have gutted the funding. I really don’t understand the reasoning.

Y ou targeted the most vulnerable popu- lation that cannot even speak for themselves. ” That’s what your government did on May 4 of this year, and now the Premier has the gall to stand here in this room and say: “Well, parents can sign up for independent distance learning. ” No, they can’t. Y ou gutted the budget. We’ve heard a stream of excuses of why the anxieties of parents will not be addressed.

And of course, none of us are looking forward to that headline in the newspapers or on social media saying: “Outbreak at School X, Y , Z — 400,000 Students Go Home, and Parents Panic. ” Premier, what are you going to do about independent distance learning, and what are you going to do about online learning? [2:25 p.m.] Mr. Chair:Through the Chair, Member. Premier. Hon. J. Horgan:The distance learning fund in the last year of the B.C. Liberals was $65 million. This year it’s $84 million. That’s a 4 percent increase. Y ou can work on that.

I also want, just to demonstrate the consistency of the official opposition on these matters…. This was from a Kelowna Chamber of Commerce Zoom meeting, the Leader of the Opposition. It’s rather lengthy, but I assume it’s the position that he holds.

He made these comments on July 28, which by my count was two weeks ago: “I was actually pleased to hear this morning that the Vancouver Coastal public health officer was saying: ‘Look, their goal is to have all the kids back in school and K to 12 on September 8, five days a week, because the risk to kids in the classroom is low because it’s not a youth-oriented disorder. ’” That’s not me saying that. I don’t even know if it’s the public health official. I do know it was the Leader of the Official Opposition.

He went on to say this: “Y ou know, I’m a former doctor” — I’ve heard that — “so I can tell you all about Kawasaki syndrome and the rare occurrences in children. But generally, kids are pretty safe. And her point was, as the public health officer of two million people in Coastal Health, there’s a huge cost to be paid to continue social isolation, especially of children.

Keeping their parents out of their productive work or tied down dealing, in an 800-square-foot apartment, with one or a couple of unemployed, and two kids going around tearing the place apart — that’s not good for your health either. ” Now, I disagree with almost everything in that quote, but it was the words of the Leader of the Official Opposi- tion, who is saying that I am insulting, I’m degrading and I’m not listening to people, when he has a different posi- tion every other day.

My position has been consistent — that we will continue to engage with people every single day because that’s what they expect of us. That’s why we came here. That’s why we were elected — to lift people up, to focus on their needs. Interjections. The Chair:Members, the Premier has the floor. Hon. J. Horgan:That’s what we’re doing, and it’s never good enough for the doctor on the other side, because he just can’t for a minute engage in a civil discourse about the important needs of the people of British Columbia. That’s what I want to do. The member for Kamloops–South Thompson does it most of the time.

That’s what all of us should be doing. I’m committed to making sure that if parents need distance learning, we’ll find the resources to put it in place. Applications are coming in right now. The budget’s higher than it was on their watch. Stop making stuff up and pick a position. Do you want kids in class or out of class? I can’t tell. A. Wilkinson:The Premier continues to sow seeds of confusion to avoid the issue. Two things. The health risk to children is low, the risk of transmission to parents Friday, August 14, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12463

is high, and the risk of transmission to grandparents is even higher. That’s what the families are worried about. That’s why they want distance learning, and that’s why they’re upset that you cut $14 million out of the distance learning budget on May 4 of this year, when you should have been anticipating the growth of demand. Now we’ve heard that, apparently, the demand for distance learning will be sat- isfied. Well, this a complete reversal of position that we’ve heard today, ten minutes ago. It’s a very simple question, Premier. Will you… The Chair:Through the Chair. A.

Wilkinson:…fund and support and guarantee that for parents who are uncomfortable having their children go to school because of health risk to them, their grand- parents, their family or whoever, that parental wish will be respected and that Internet learning will be provided throughout the province of British Columbia wherever it’s feasible? It’s a very simple question: can parents rely on distance learning or not? [2:30 p.m.] [S. Gibson in the chair.] Hon. J. Horgan:I will again say that there are 56 public IDLs and 16 privates. They’re all taking enrolment right now and will continue to do so.

There was not a cut. There was an increase in the budget. Interjections. Hon. J. Horgan:We have those that clearly disagree with that. An increase in dollars is an increase in dollars. Interjections. The Chair:Members. Members, please let the Premier speak. [2:35 p.m.] Hon. J. Horgan:The budget in 2016-2017 was $65 mil- lion; it’s now $84 million. Again, it’s an increase in funding. I guess we’re going to agree to disagree. Maybe we can get back to the point at hand. The BCCDC has worked with school boards and the Ministry of Education to put in place the programs that we have.

We know that there are families that are concerned about this. There are options available to them, as I’ve said. There will be no fees for that, as the fearmongers said on the other side — quite the contrary. We’re going to be able to deliver these services in a way that meets the needs of British Col- umbians. It is not helpful to have the opposition, on a daily basis, going from, “Y es, you should send the kids back” to: “No, you shouldn’t send the kids back. ” Pick a line. Take a posi- tion, and stand with it. Or better yet, join with us, be flex- ible, and meet the science as it presents itself. The B.C.

Centre for Disease Control doesn’t write opin- ion pieces in theProvince, I’m afraid. They just give good advice to governments, and we’ve been implementing that advice. An overwhelming number of people are looking at that advice and saying: “I’m comfortable today with the way we’re going, with a mix of distance learning and in- class teaching. ” It’s important for kids. I know that anyone who has got children on the other side of the House knows that school is critically important to them, not just for the stimula- tion, intellectually, but for the socialization components. It’s critically important.

For those who are immunocom- promised, for those who have other issues, we are ready and available to help them out. The Minister of Education is there. There are school trustees across British Columbia that are working overtime to make sure that kids are safe and that they’re getting in the education they deserve. I don’t know what part of that answer the folks on the other side disagree with. I guess it’s because it was the pos- ition they had two weeks ago, and now they’ve decided to have a different position. A. Wilkinson:It probably bears reading again.

Reporter: “Fifty percent of parents are not comfortable with the back-to-school planning and sending their kids back to school. ” Dr. Henry’s response: “Y eah, this is perhaps a question for the Premier. It reflects the concern we all have — you know, how this is going to work and wanting to know the details. ” The Premier’s response: “ At the end of the day, the decisions rest with me and my government. ” There’s no fobbing this off. The question has to be squarely answered by the Premier and his Education Minister. They’ve talked about capacity and independent distance learning.

Does every one of those portals have the capacity for 9,000 students so that 640,000 students can sign on? I’ll raise the question again. Is there capacity in the sys- tem for all 640,000 K-to-12 students or not? [2:40 p.m.] Hon. J. Horgan:Again, I’ll just remind the House that the Leader of the Opposition, when he was talking to the chamber of commerce, said that he was pleased that Van- couver Coastal Health had a goal of getting kids back into class five days a week. So it was good enough for him talk- ing to the chamber of commerce, but it doesn’t seem good enough today.

Again, I want to reiterate that our objective and our goal is to make sure we’re meeting the needs of every family in British Columbia. Those needs are going to be different. It’s not going to be 640,000 going this way or 640,000 going that way. It is going to be a mix. I read one quote of the thousands we have of people 12464 British Columbia Debates Friday, August 14, 2020

involved in the system, whether they’re with district PACs, or parent advisory councils in elementary schools across British Columbia, parents who invest their time in making sure the system works not just for their kids, but for all kids, working with teachers, skilled professionals…. Working with 4,200 more teachers, I would add, than we would have had, had we had the former government con- tinue on with this reckless path of fighting teachers all the way to the Supreme Court. We’ve got 4,200 more teachers to provide services to kids in B.C. That’s going to make for better outcomes.

We’re going to try and find that balance that works for everybody. That’s what people expect of us, and that’s what we’re going to do. Again, I just don’t understand how the Leader of the Opposition can say one thing to a chamber of commerce and quite another thing here in this Legislature. I appre- ciate that you need to be flexible on these issues. That’s exactly what I said, so I’m prepared to cut him some slack on that. But his indignation at the notion that we are going to be flexible is puzzling to me.

I just say that we’re going to do our level best to make sure that if distance learning is what’s needed for families, it’s going to be available to them. We’re going to make sure that there are classrooms available for those kids and those parents who want to participate in the system, to make sure that their children don’t fall further behind. Maybe they’re not working as well with their iPads as they do when they’ve got a teacher and their friends around them. That’s the nature of individuality.

Again, the free-enterprisers seem to think that there are blanket answers for everything, and here I am talking about individuality and the importance of making sure that we shape the education program for every child as best we can. That’s what we’re trying to do. [2:45 p.m.] A. Wilkinson:With all due respect, that was an utterly vacuous answer to the number one question on the minds of a million parents from British Columbia today.

Current government policy requires that the parents and the children stay in their public school and go to in- person classes or withdraw completely from that bricks- and-mortar school and go to independent distance learn- ing or home-schooling. This government cut $12 million out of the independent distance learning budget on May 4. There could well be a stampede of hundreds of thousands of students to IDL in the next six weeks. It clearly doesn’t have the capacity, especially after the Premier’s budget cuts.

This creates a false choice for parents: either stick with the bricks-and-mortar school, where you have no choice but to attend in person, or withdraw from that school and desperately try to sign up for independent distance learn- ing, which is underfunded and under capacity. Why cannot the bricks-and-mortar schools be used as the base for distance learning through teachers using elec- tronic devices, just like we do every day with Zoom, just like universities and colleges are going to be doing every day and have been doing since April? It’s, obviously, a question to the Premier.

Why do you maintain this false choice between withdrawal from the public school and staying in the public school and being forced to attend in person? Let the bricks-and-mortar school be the base for distance learning. Why can that not happen? [2:50 p.m.] Hon. J. Horgan:I would say to the members opposite that school districts and schools exist to service the fam- ilies in communities right across B.C. They’re different. They’re different, whether they’re in Thompson-Nicola, whether they’re in Surrey-Cloverdale or whether they’re in Langford–Juan de Fuca.

Schools and trustees and superin- tendents and teachers are all there to service the needs of families and children. We’ve been working full stop from March, when the pandemic began. We had a brief voluntary period in June where we were able to get a lot of data from teachers, from trustees, from administrators and from support staff to help shape the plan that we announced last month. Since then, we’ve been working through school boards and schools. This is the part that seems to be lost on the members on the other side. There are key parts of all of our com- munities. I don’t understand this.

Am I the only one in this place that has schools that are populated with caring and compassionate people who want to lift people up? Of course, I’m not. We all do. To disrespect those people, to insult those people who are working every day to find a safe environment for their employees and for their kids…. That’s the disrespect that I’m hearing today. I’m not dishing it out on this side. I’m trying to say to the Leader of the Opposition, who doesn’t seem to be able to get his noggin around this, that we’re all in this together.

We cannot have schools without teachers, whether it’s distance learning or in-class learning. We cannot have communities without trustees working hard to make sure that families in their communities are getting the services they need. That’s what we’re doing, and we’re going to continue. Right now, today, districts across British Columbia are hearing from parents and developing plans that meet the needs of those individuals. Everyone wants to continue to have in-class teaching. They want to make sure that dis- tance learning is available for people. That’s what we’re doing. That’s exactly what we’re doing.

In the world that’s populated by the dour fellow on the other side here, everything is going to come apart, and 600,000 people are going to just disperse instantly, unless I do something that’s incomprehensible from the questions he’s asking. Friday, August 14, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12465

I’ve said, time and time again…. The Minister of Educa- tion has said it. Trustees have said it. Superintendents have said it. Dr. Henry has said it. We are going to try and make this work for everybody. Whatever they need, if it’s in class, if it’s a hybrid, we’re going to work it out. We will not resolve it on a Friday afternoon in August in this place when the debate is not about: what’s the best course of action to lift up students? How do we make our schools work better? It’s about disrespecting each other. This hyper-partisanship is exactly what turns people off. Why would they tune in…? Interjections. Hon.

J. Horgan:Here it comes. Here it comes, the wave of invective. How dare I call you out for what you’re doing? What are you doing, man? Y ou’re here, yelling and scream- ing like it’s a middle school classroom, rather than having a reasoned debate about what our kids need, what our dis- tricts need, what our teachers need. Interjections. The Chair:Members, come to order, please. Members. Hon. J. Horgan:I’m delighted that I brought some lev- ity to the opposition side. Clearly, they get none from the Leader of the Opposition. A.

Wilkinson:The Premier seems to be doing every- thing he can to avoid the core question. [2:55 p.m.] Here’s the core question. Parents want choice. They want to have distance learning provided by their bricks- and-mortar school. They don’t want to be forced to with- draw from the school. Parents see the logic. If a batch of the kids from that school are learning from home, there will be less crowding in the school, less risk of transmis- sion, easier social distancing, a better learning environ- ment for everybody.

All they’re asking for is an element of parental choice for a legitimate opportunity to have school-based distance learning. Why can’t you do that? Hon. J. Horgan:Asked and answered. A. Wilkinson:Well, it’s ironic that the Premier seems to think this is a courtroom and he’s under cross-examin- ation. That’s not how this works, Premier. The public are expecting answers from you. Why can’t they have parental choice? Y ou say that you’ve answered the question. Y ou did it by insulting me.

Is par- ental choice not possible in our school system so that at a bricks-and-mortar school, parents could have distance learning or in-class learning to provide safer schools and easier social distancing? What’s the answer, Premier? Hon. J. Horgan:As I said and have said repeatedly, par- ents should be contacting their school. They should be talking to the administrators, whether it’s the vice-prin- cipals or principals. They should be talking to people in their community to get the answers they need. They should not, under any circumstances, take guid- ance from the Leader of the Official Opposition. A.

Wilkinson:The reason they shouldn’t take guidance from me is I don’t have a $65 billion budget, 300,000 indir- ect employees, 28,000 people in the civil service and an earpiece in my ear telling me what to say. Premier, the question is very simple. I’m going to ask it a fourth time to see if you finally find the ability to answer it. Why isn’t there parental choice in the schools to allow for an element of distance learning from the bricks-and- mortar school so that there will be easier social distancing, a safer school environment and genuine parental choice of how their children can learn? Hon. J.

Horgan:I’ll say, again, to parents that are con- cerned that I appreciate this anxiety. They should imme- diately, if they have not already, contact their school, contact the trustees in their community and work through the system and allow the professionals — that are dedicated, most of them their entire lives, to lifting up children in British Columbia so we can all have a stronger, safer community — to work with the people on the ground that are delivering the services. The Min- istry of Education stands ready to be there for any of the gaps that are created as a result of those interactions.

I encourage people to engage, engage, engage. If that is inadequate for the Leader of the Opposition, I very much regret that. But it’s pretty transparent and pretty straightforward. Go and talk to the principal in the school your children are enrolled in. See what your needs are, and we’ll go from there. That strikes me as rational. That strikes me as appro- priate, knowing full well that these plans that are being developed locally are the foundation of the B.C. Centre of Disease Control advice, not opinion writers in the Van- couverProvince and not from the Leader of the Oppo- sition.

It’s professionals who are dedicating their lives to public health who are putting in place the guidelines that we will operate under. Those are being implemented school by school, community by community and district by district. That’s the plan. A. Wilkinson: Well, it’s unfortunate that I have to read out the quote from Bonnie Henry for the third time so that the Premier will hopefully realize that he has responsibility for this. There’s no referring the respons- ibility to anyone else. He’s just told the parents of 640,000 students to go and see the principal. Is the principal there on August 14?

The 12466 British Columbia Debates Friday, August 14, 2020

schools aren’t even opening until September 8. The teach- ers are showing up for the first time on September 8. Why can’t this Premier answer the simple question of why there isn’t parental choice to allow for some distance learning from a bricks-and-mortar school without forcing the student to withdraw from that school? Simple ques- tion. Hon. J. Horgan:Hon. Chair, 56 publicly funded dis- tance learning institutions across the province, schools ready to deliver these services.

Again, I appreciate…. [3:00 p.m.] I’m surprised, though, that the Leader of the Opposition believes that somehow, from my perch here in the Legis- lature, I can determine what’s in the best interest of famil- ies in Fort St. John, families in Kamloops and families in Surrey when you have duly elected trustees, superintend- ents, administrators, teachers and support staff all focused on delivering the best quality education they can in a safe environment. Wouldn’t that be the best place for parents to go and find out what’s in their interest and what they can get from the district that they live in?

I seem to think it is. I don’t understand. I appreciate that the member is going to get up one more time and ask me why I don’t have wisdom from on high to impart to him today, the same fel- low who said to the chamber of commerce that he wanted to see everybody back in class five days a week. That was his answer when he was talking to a business audience. When he’s trying to pander to people today, rather than work with people to reduce fear and anxiety and find a way that we can bring our school system back on to the extent that we can and deliver quality education for the people of British Columbia….

That’s what we want to do. I thought that’s what the majority of people on the other side wanted to do. I really did. I think if they were being honest with themselves, hon. Speaker, they would agree with me. Y eah. These are complicated times — 600,000 people all trying to figure out what they’re going to do in September. Every year, that’s a challenge. District enrolment changes. People move into a community. They don’t know what’s going to go on. They engage with local authorities to try and figure it out.

We put in place a framework and the resources to make sure that PPE is available, that our schools are as clean as they can possibly be. We’re following the Centre for Dis- ease Control — here in British Columbia — guidelines to make sure that can happen. Now the real answer is…. What? Go ahead. Interjection. Hon. J. Horgan:Oh, now it’s about a lack of construc- tion over the past 16 years under the B.C. Liberals. If we didn’t have so many portables in Surrey because of under- funding in the capital budget, we’ d have a different out- come. I agree with the member.

We’re working as hard as we can to build new spaces, but the deficit was so great that it’s taking some time. And of course, it’s even more com- plicated now because we’re abiding by the duly signed con- tracts between the province of British Columbia and the B.C. Teachers Federation, and we have 4,200 more teach- ers in those classrooms, and that’s how we’re going to make all of this work. Again, either the Leader of the Official Opposition wants everyone in class five days a week, as he said to the chamber of commerce, or he wants something else. That’s his choice. He can work that out with his family.

What I’m saying to families across British Columbia: this is a time of high anxiety. I absolutely understand that. We are taking every step we can to make sure that you have local options in your community, wherever that might be, to meet the needs of your children, your family. That’s our commitment, and we’ll keep with it. A. Wilkinson:Let me summarize the Premier’s answer. If you’re concerned about your children going back to school, go and join the other 600,000 people asking the local principal, if you can find that principal.

If you don’t like the option of bricks-and-mortar school — that is, attending in person — you have no choice. There’s no dis- tance learning from the bricks-and-mortar school. There- fore, you’ll have to withdraw from that school and either take up home-schooling or line up with tens of thousands of other parents and try to sign on for independent dis- tance learning. Do I have that right, Premier? Hon. J. Horgan: I rather doubt you have it right, because I don’t think you want to hear what I’m saying, Member. I don’t think you want to hear what I’m saying. I’m saying that everyone is different.

There are many fam- ilies who are saying: “I’m excited about going back to school. ” The excitement on the faces of young ones when they go into a classroom and they see their friend or the teacher that they wanted to have from the year before — that’s a special time in someone’s life. That’s an extraordin- ary time. And the…. Interjection. Hon. J. Horgan:Sorry? I didn’t know you were going to ask questions. Interjection. Hon. J. Horgan:Well, he doesn’t want to hear what I’m saying. The member doesn’t want to hear what I’m say- ing. I’ve said that a whole bunch of people are happy with what’s going on.

Friday, August 14, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12467

The Chair:Members, come to order, please. Hon. J. Horgan:They’re going to have their kids show up. I could read off more if you want to hear…. Maybe that’s the solution, hon. Chair. The Leader of the Opposi- tion only has education questions for the Premier on a day after they had 20 hours of discussion with the Minister of Education, so I’ll…. Interjections. Hon. J. Horgan:Y eah, yeah, okay, sure. Y ou didn’t get answers. That’s right. Here you go. Ida, a parent of seven, in theVancouver Sunon July 30, a Burnaby parent: “I’m feeling…confident with Dr.

Henry’s decision because I developed some confidence with her over the past few months in her ability to keep us safe. So I feel good about it. I think the biggest thing for us parents is to kind of accept that our normal is not going to be static; it’s going to be changing. ” [3:05 p.m.] Thank goodness. A mother of seven brings wisdom to this debate, finally, at three o’ clock on a Friday afternoon in August, someone who says: “I have confidence that the public health officials, the B.C.

Centre for Disease Control, the trustees that I had the confidence to elect at the last election who run our school system, are going to be able to deliver a safe environment for my seven children. ” Take that off the 600,000 that are running for the door, Member, and let’s start from there. Let’s talk about another parent from Cariboo. This is a superintendent. I don’t want to name that person because there might be ramifications. I’ll leave that off.

I’ll go to another parent. “It’s not good for kids to be away from their friends and out of the classroom so long. ” That’s in theGlobe and Mail— David Fallon of Vancouver, a parent. There are more. There are lots and lots of families that are excited about what’s ahead. There are lots of families that are anxious. We’re trying to reduce that anxiety. The opposition is trying to elevate it. Why they’re motivated to do that is a mystery to me.

Why they’re not adopting the position that British Columbians supported a few months ago, all of us putting aside our partisan differences and focusing on the people that matter in this instance…. Y oung people, parents right across B.C. — that’s what we should be focusing on. But instead, we get insults, we get rhetoric, we get hyperbole. What we need to do…. Interjection. Hon. J. Horgan:The plan is pretty simple. Man, I don’t know how obtuse you have to be, but the member for Kamloops–North Thompson seems to top the charts day after day. Go to your school. Find out what’s in your best interest.

The professionals there that care about your chil- dren and care about you and care about your community will work with you to find that result. A. Wilkinson:After that screed we can say that I think the choice is summarized for parents. Here’s the choice. The Premier, I’m sure, will tell me if I’ve misunderstood or don’t get it quite right. The choice is between going to the local bricks-and-mortar school as usual, with no abil- ity for distance learning, or withdrawing from that school for either home-schooling or joining the lineup for inde- pendent distance learning. Correct? Hon. J.

Horgan:No, you’re not correct. Y ou’re not cor- rect. Just next week the Vancouver school district will be rolling out their plan for their community, worked on with the teachers and the parents and the support staff in that community. That will have a mix and a hybrid. That will happen in other jurisdictions across the province. We need to know what the need is. That’s why parents are so critically important in this exercise. They need to engage with the people providing the services for their families. A.

Wilkinson:Well, I think we can probably leave it that the Premier has told us that every concerned parent should just go and join the lineup at the principal’s office to try to find out how it’s going to work. And if they don’t like it, they’ll have to withdraw from the school and try home- schooling or join the lineup for IDL. This is a sad commentary in what we look for from the Premier in terms of leadership in a time of crisis. The Premier hasn’t got a clue what the unemployment rate is. The Premier doesn’t know what’s happening in schools in four weeks.

And now we have the concept of the Pre- mier, in about three hours, getting into a 3,000-kilogram black armoured SUV with blackened-out windows, and he’ll drive through north Victoria, where he is protected from what’s going on there. Let me give the Premier a few quotes of what’s going on there. This is from Les Leyne, well-known columnist at the VictoriaTimes Colonist: “Homeless Addicts Are Over- whelming NDP’s Solutions. ” “By a number of measures, the NDP’s approach is not working.

Despite a steady blizzard of announcements and news releases about all the expensive new efforts underway, there is scant evid- ence that they’re making much progress. Despite pouring millions of dollars into new housing — in a controversial, heavy-handed fashion when it comes to Victoria — it’s the same perennial conver- sation and anxiety it has been for years.

It is spreading across B.C. to the point where virtually every community is grappling with it. ” [3:10 p.m.] There are estimated, by the social minister, to be 40 homelessness camps around B.C. “But four-year govern- ments coming up with ten-year plans is just as silly as a three-year-old government blaming its failures on its predecessors. ” Let me repeat that. “Four-year governments coming up 12468 British Columbia Debates Friday, August 14, 2020

with ten-year plans is just as silly as a three-year-old NDP government blaming its failures on its predecessors. ” The NDP , in opposition, knew how intractable addic- tion and homelessness issues were, but they left the impression it would all be easy to take care of once their commitment was to make things right. That impression looks, now, entirely erroneous. This, Premier, is in your backyard, statements from some of the people you drive by every day with the police officers taking care of you. Mr.

Dodd, owner of Dodd’s Furniture: “We’ve got big sympathy, and we do a lot for the homeless, but the B.C. government is not doing anything. The system has all failed, and we want to give a message to the B.C. govern- ment to do something. ” Jolanda, owner of Java Jo’s: “I’ve been threatened a few times in the past month…. I want my oldest son, who is 16, to be able to work here in the summer, and I don’t feel safe enough for him to come in. ” Byron Loucks, owner of West Coast Appliances: “I now have to confront intoxicated, screaming individuals daily as a way to keep our parking lot clear and our customers safe.

My entire life is tied to this business. I now fear that because of our location we may be forced to close for good. We didn’t bring the problem to the area. Why should we be the ones forced to suffer for the government’s decisions?” It’s not just Victoria. Y aletown, the owner of Downtown Florist: “The complete atmosphere of my business and its surroundings has changed since homeless encampments have taken up space in the Howard Johnson Hotel.

The homelessness problem has worsened from this completely unprofessional and irresponsible decision. ” The owner of Roxy Burger down the street: “What is happening now is not only scary and depressing but it comes at a time when our businesses are struggling more than ever. People deserve better from our elected offi- cials. ” This is the upshot of three years of the NDP homeless- ness plan. What we heard 2½ years ago was that there’ d be a new approach. I read from the documentTogetherBC: British Columbia’s Poverty Reduction Strategy: “Prevention.

Make homelessness rare by preventing people from becoming homeless and by helping people who are at risk of homelessness. Immediate response. If someone becomes homeless, actions should be taken to make the experience brief to reduce harm and help prevent chronic homelessness. ” This complete debacle was well underway before COV- ID came along. Let’s look at the NDP’s plan for how to deal with it. Howard Johnson Hotel, Vancouver — assessed value, $38.7 million; purchase price, $55 million. Vancouver, Buchan Hotel — assessed value, $11.2 million; purchase price, $19.4 million.

The American Hotel in Vancouver — assessed value, $11.3 million; purchase price, $17.9 mil- lion. Victoria, Paul’s Motor Inn — assessed value, $8.8 mil- lion; purchase price, $15 million. Victoria, Comfort Inn — assessed value, $14.2 million; purchase price, $18.5 million. In other words, the NDP , in their valiant effort, have paid $41 million more than the assessed value to create zones of utter misery for the residents, for the community, for the businesses around them and for visitors who are now reluctant to enter those communities.

From the vantage point of your SUV , Premier, can you tell us how you let this happen? Hon. J. Horgan: I would seek a recess for a health break. I’ll be back to answer the question at the earliest opportunity. The Chair:Thank you, Members. We’ll take a recess for approximately ten minutes or less. The committee recessed from 3:14 p.m. to 3:26 p.m. [S. Gibson in the chair.] Hon. J. Horgan:I thank the member for raising what is a very, very difficult issue for communities right across British Columbia, not just in our urban centres but in rural B.C. as well.

I appreciate that the challenges of homelessness, the challenges of mental health and addictions, did not arrive today. They did not arrive ten years ago or 20 years ago or 30 years ago. They’ve been with us forever — for a long, long time. All governments have done their level best, I believe, at all orders — federal, provincial and municip- al — to put in place a framework that can address these issues as they emerge.

I do have to say — and I appreciate that the member might take issue with this — that during the pandemic, we’ve seen temporary shelters either curtailed or closed altogether, which has put more pressure on social hous- ing, which we have built in significant amounts in the three years that we’ve been in government. But the prob- lem persists.

We had a cross-ministry approach to this some weeks ago, involving Social Development and Poverty Reduc- tion, Mental Health and Addictions, Municipal Affairs and Housing, Public Safety all coming together to put in place a plan that would address the comprehensive challenges that we have when it comes to homelessness, addictions, mental health, and so on. Poverty is the root of the chal- lenge, and we need to lift people up. That’s why we’re focus- ing on building an economy that includes everyone, lifts all of us up and spreads around the wealth and the benefits of being in British Columbia.

In Oppenheimer Park, down Pandora Avenue here in Victoria and in Topaz Park we were able to house 600 Friday, August 14, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12469

people in a very short period of time, and that did not address the problem completely. The challenges of policing….

I see at least one mem- ber of the committee that’s been struck by this House to look at the Police Act so that we can better inform and assist law enforcement in doing their work by determin- ing what other elements of their work should better be done by others, whether it be social workers to deal with mental health, whether it be first responders that can better address addictions and overdoses, whether it be any number of other service delivery mechanisms that are available to municipalities, to the province, to the federal government.

I think that will take us a long way toward success so that law enforcement does have a clear direction of what their responsibility is, what their role is in addressing these issues. The member knows full well — the Leader of the Opposition does; I know many of his colleagues do — that these are complex issues, addictions particularly. Complex issues. [3:30 p.m.] We’ve recently reached out to the federal government and urged them to decriminalize possession of small amounts of opioids so that we do not criminalize people but, instead, find ways to give them the supports that they need.

We are working hard on increasing the numbers of supports, and it seems every day to be inadequate. We con- tinue to try and reassess and redeploy resources. The Minister of Mental Health and Addictions added some 170 new treatment beds over the past number of weeks, and we’re still going to be playing catch-up all the while. Communities where we see temporary housing are very concerned. I’ve heard those concerns. The member can be assured of that. But I look at successes that are still in progress in Nanaimo, on the Whalley strip, in Maple Ridge, where we have had breakthroughs. But we have more work to do.

We’re going to continue to do that. We’re going to continue to focus on working with our partners, whether they be federal, provincial, not-for- profit — again, critically important during a pandemic. Those volunteers that not-for-profits depend on are often- times seniors, often very vulnerable within the pandemic environment we’re living in. They’re not able to be deployed as volunteers, as they have for many, many years, most of them, because of the situation we find ourselves in.

Now, I appreciate we’ve done a lot, and we’ll be going through that over the next couple of hours, and I know that we’ve got much more to do. [R. Chouhan in the chair.] A. Wilkinson:The concern, I think, is growing across British Columbia, and the Premier himself has said this is not just a problem in our urban centres. We find it in places as small as Grand Forks, Duncan, Nanaimo, Kam- loops and Prince George. And of course, our former col- league Leonard Krog, who’s now mayor of Nanaimo, has pointed out that this situation is stretching the limits of community tolerance.

All across British Columbia, the current approach is clearly not working. Buy a motel. Install people. They live as they see fit and struggle. There are localized increases in crime. There are localized increases in prop- erty damage. No one is getting healthier. Residents are threatened, subjected to endless property crime. And there’s no pathway off drugs. So I think the obvious query is: is it time for the Premier to go and meet with these merchants and residents in the north end of Vic- toria and hear their stories personally? Hon. J.

Horgan:The Leader of the Opposition men- tioned Gordy Dodd, who I’ve known for many, many years and have extraordinary respect for not just as entrepreneur but as a philanthropist and a social activist — a fine human being and one that I know many members of this House have personal relationships with. I do believe that given the ability to leave this place, I will be doing more and more outreach to communities across British Columbia.

I’m very much interested in going to Kamloops, for example, where the member for Kam- loops–South Thompson has raised in question period a number of issues that are not familiar to me on a personal level, and I very much want to take him up on that and vis- it his community. The challenges…. Again, I’m grateful for the tone here, because this is extraordinarily difficult for those afflicted and those that are feeling afflicted because of the moves that we’ve made to get people off the streets and into hous- ing.

Despite that, we see neighbourhoods like Strathcona in Vancouver, Beacon Hill Park here in Victoria — two that come easiest to mind for many of us here…. Again, referring back to Kamloops, and my friend from Stikine talks about the challenges in Smithers all the time and has for many, many years, so it’s not an urban issue. It is a problem across the board. During a pandemic, with high unemployment, as we talked about earlier on, these problems are compounded. I believe that the way forward is to ensure that we’re getting the right people to give the right services. Public safety — fundamental.

We need to make sure that we don’t have lawless zones in our cities and in our communities. I’m very, very committed to that, as is the Minister of Public Safety. We also need to make sure that we have the resources in place. I’ve heard many members on the opposition side over the past number of months raising their desire to see increased budgets for many of the programs that we’ve been delivering over the past number of months.

I know that the Minister of Finance will take that advice and will look at re-estab- lishing and refocusing those dollars to meet the needs in communities. [3:35 p.m.] 12470 British Columbia Debates Friday, August 14, 2020

In question period, we talked a lot about wraparound services. I think we need to have a clear definition for all of us, at least, of what that means. And having someone available all the time to make sure we can get access to the health care provider that’s needed for the individual or cluster of individuals is critically important. That means making sure that we are putting those individuals in place so that we can deliver the services to the individuals in question. I want to go back, again, to the question of addictions, the question of stigmatizing those who have mental health and addiction issues.

I would love to hear the opposition support our call to the federal government to decriminal- ize small amounts of opioids for personal use so that we can stop the stigma and start working on being patients. Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition will support us in that today. A. Wilkinson:Will the Premier and his executive coun- cil put a moratorium on the purchase of motels, which has become such a cause of community disruption and destruction and leads to no improvement of the standard of living for the residents? Hon. J.

Horgan:Well, I think it’s a sweeping statement to say that there’s no improvement for anyone. Quite the contrary. I know the Minister of Housing has quite a com- pendium of individuals whose lives have been trans- formed by getting out of a bad situation and getting into a better one. That doesn’t work for everybody. I freely admit that. But I think a blanket statement that the programs and policies of the government are universally unsuccessful is not accurate. Do we need to reassess at all times the progress we’re making, and are we taking the right steps at the right time with the right people?

Of course we’re going to continue to do that. But I don’t support the notion of a moratori- um. Rather, I support continued engagement with mayors, councils, law enforcement, service providers and not-for- profits and, most importantly, making sure that as we do purchases, we have a plan that is not just about ghettoizing but is a plan about using that space to build the continuum of housing that we need in the community. A.

Wilkinson:Given that the Premier won’t accept the need for a moratorium on these motel purchases and warehousing of these people, will the Premier accept that it’s time to reassess the program? Because no one’s getting healthier. Residents are threatened. There’s extensive prop- erty crime around these facilities, and there is no pathway off drugs when living in one of those facilities. [3:40 p.m.] Hon. J. Horgan:Again, I’m encouraged by the tone of the discussion we’re having, and I’m grateful to have the opportunity to talk about these issues. I do disagree with the member’s premise that there is no success.

I just got a note from the Minister of Housing. In her community in Coquitlam, fully half of those that have been put in tem- porary housing have begun treatment programs. As a physician and a learned scholar, the Leader of the Opposition will know that moments of clarity need to be grasped and are better grasped in a collective setting than in isolation. So when those moments of clarity come for people with addictions, you need to be able to seize upon those and, most importantly, you need to have the resources to back that up. That’s government’s responsibil- ity, and we’re going to continue to do what we can.

We’ve had counsel from the other side to do so. That makes it a bit easier to increase resources, to make sure we have the services in place to help people. We need to also acknowledge that the whole continuum of housing is required. I know members on the other side…. The member for Langley East spent his career on this side of the House dealing with housing issues. He knows the complexity. He knows that circumstances change and are fluid in markets as well as in the number of people that are without housing.

And not to have those temporary spaces, as we do during the pandemic, has cre- ated a much bigger problem for us to see, but also a much bigger problem for us to address. Again, I just…. I do believe that giving people that hand up is so fundamental. If we’re going to be serious about destigmatizing for our brothers and our sisters and our parents and our relatives who are struggling with addic- tions, or who, for no fault of their own, find themselves with economic circumstances that have them on the streets…. Those people, we know full well….

Those that are friends and relatives and acquaintances, we know that at their core, they’re needing help. We need to be able to find that moment to provide that help. The best way to do that is to continue to focus on getting better every day at delivering the services that those people need and building the housing, which also has to happen with a collective and cooperative approach between those that do the zoning in cities and those that provide the resources at the federal and provincial levels and doing it in a way that meets the needs of people in every part of the province — rural, urban and otherwise. A.

Wilkinson:This morning on CFAX radio, it was stated that the superintendent of school district No. 61 in greater Victoria says that they will have to increase safety measures in school to keep children safe due to increased crime due to hotels purchased by the government and filled with homeless people that have no support. So given that there is now deep and widespread concern right here in Victoria, less than 2 kilometres from here, will the Premier reassess his Victoria motel purchase plan because it’s simply not working the way it should? [3:45 p.m.] Friday, August 14, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12471

Hon. J. Horgan:For the member’s benefit, I have some statistics from B.C. Housing on supportive housing res- idents after only six months. Ninety-four percent of res- idents remain housed in the units after six months, 84 percent of those residents report improvements in overall well-being, and 82 percent of residents report experien- cing positive interactions with neighbours. Now, I appreciate that leaves a big chunk that don’t. I don’t want everyone to go nuts over there. I understand the problem.

I do think that we need to separate this out and acknowledge that there are those are benefiting from these programs, and there are those that are taking advant- age of them or are not finding that place that allows them to find that clarity of purpose and mind that we were talk- ing about. The numbers are fairly impressive about individuals who are finding a better place for themselves and a better launch pad to a better future in the community or some- where else. I think the continuum…. This is not new. This is not a program that we instituted. It was one that B.C. Housing showed to us upon our arrival.

It was being utilized by the former government, and other governments across North America, as a tool. In the pandemic, of course, it has been extraordinary. I go back to those shelter beds that are no longer available and other vehicles within the community that often have been available for those that are living rough. Now we are where we are. I take the advice from the Leader of the Opposition in the tone in which he has offered it.

When I get together with the team, which I’ve talked about — the Minister of Social Development, the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions, the Minister of Housing, the Minister of Public Safety — and we discuss…. The Minister of Skills and Training is on the committee as well. We want, again, to give people opportunity. Of course, education is the great equalizer in our society. Give people the tools to succeed, and the likelihood of that happening goes up exponentially. All of those ministers and their teams are working with B.C.

Housing and looking at the success we’ve had with some of these initiatives and also the challenges. We’ll address those challenges on a daily basis, asking, again, for calm in the community. I know that Mayor Helps, for example, here in Victoria, and her council are working to try and find ways forward. Sometimes we are on different pages. Other times we’re in sync.

That’s not unusual when you have a problem that is as deeply seated as this one, with everyone wanting to do the right thing to help those vulnerable people but also respect the rights and liberties of those in the community that were going along blissfully, without any knowledge of the challenges, or, at least, not having those challenges made so apparent on a daily basis. A. Wilkinson:My request, my suggestion, the thing that I beseech the Premier to do is, perhaps next week, on his way home, stop and talk with Jolanda at Java Jo’s. Go and see Byron Loucks. Sit down in the furniture store with Gordy Dodd.

Hear them out about how their lives have been torn apart by what’s happening in the north end of Victoria. Premier, it’s not working, and it needs to be revised. [3:50 p.m.] Hon. J. Horgan:I thank the member, genuinely, for the tone of this discussion today. I know, over the course of a number of days…. Question period is a heated discussion. We all know that these challenges are not easily fixed. We all know that they didn’t arrive yesterday, and I will not say they arrived 16 years ago. They’ve been with us for a long time.

I do agree that we need to redouble our efforts to solve these problems, keeping in mind all of the unin- tended consequences of policy decisions as we go forward. I hope, also, that the opposition will work with us. This is another one of those opportunities where we can say….

I know members, in communities that are not represented by this side of the House, work with their councils and work with their mayors, finding ways to secure land that’s appropriate for housing, working with your federal MPs in communities across the province to see the federal gov- ernment not just talk about housing, which they’ve been doing. Again, I appeal to the member for Langley East. The federal government has talked about housing for a long, long time, but the cheques have not been sufficient to meet the demand in communities. We need all orders of government working on this.

Members of all parties are on the review of the Police Act. We need to make sure that public safety professionals are given the tools they need to address the circumstances they find themselves in, whether it be in a temporary housing environment or in encampments or just meeting people upon the street. I’m genuinely pleased with the tone of the conversation here. If we collectively, all 87 of us, can keep this focus and legitimately criticize where there are vacuums or holes in policy, I think we’ll make some progress in the days and weeks ahead.

I don’t think anyone in this House today would say that these problems will be easily addressed, but if we come at it with the tenor and tone of the discussion we’ve just had, I believe there’s some hope that the politic- al noise around what is a societal challenge will be dimin- ished. Maybe we’ll make even more progress. A. Wilkinson:On Monday, I came into the office, and there was a package. In the package was a purple T-shirt and a note that said: “Dear Dr. Wilkinson, MLA. Please join us as we remember all those loved and lost for Inter- national Overdose Awareness Day, August 31.

Sincerely, Moms Stop The Harm. ” This is a scourge, Premier. We had all-time-high death rates in May and June of this year. We have to ask if the system is working. Clearly, it’s not. Back in 2018, the current government filed a lawsuit, on 12472 British Columbia Debates Friday, August 14, 2020

August 29, on behalf of Her Majesty the Queen in Right of the Province of British Columbia against 40 pharmaceut- ical companies and drug distribution companies. In that lawsuit on behalf of the Crown — that is, on behalf of your government — statements were made. Paragraph 79: “Prescription opioids are powerful nar- cotics…. In addition to pain-controlling effects, opioids can…induce an addictive, euphoric high. ” Paragraph 80: “With continued use, patients grow tolerant to opioids and require progressively higher doses over time.

This increases the risk of withdrawal, addiction and over- dose. ” I can only presume the Premier agrees with those state- ments, since it’s his government that made them in the lawsuit. The lawsuit then goes on to accuse the defendants of having induced addiction by providing an undue and excessive amount of narcotics, opioids — whatever you like to call them — morphine derivatives or synthetic opioids to the people of British Columbia. In light of that statement and the statement from Dr. Henry, one of the most common misconceptions I hear all the time is that those people choose to use drugs.

They don’t appreciate that when people have substance use dis- orders and addiction, it’s a chronic, relapsing health con- dition. I’m just going to, in the spirit of constructive approach that we’re trying to take at the moment, ask the Premier to stand and withdraw his remarks that addiction is a choice. [3:55 p.m.] Hon. J. Horgan:I thank the member. I did that the day after the press conference. I do want to, however, put it into context. The line of questioning was comparing opioid deaths to a pandemic. In a ham-fisted way, I tried to make the distinction between droplets and opioids.

The summa- tion in the legal brief, I think, is fairly consistent. It’s cer- tainly something I support. I retracted the statement the next day, and I do so again today. We cannot stigmatize those who find themselves — through no fault of their own, through traumas that we cannot understand and imagine — to be addicted. Wheth- er it be from a prescription, from a party or from whatever circumstance the individual has found themselves in, they should not be blamed for that. They should be helped for that. If that assists the member, I hope it does. A.

Wilkinson:I assume that that retraction, just short of an apology, applies to the families who sent us the T- shirts this Monday. Sadly, there are 3,917 people who have died, under this government’s watch, of drug overdoses. It’s not causally related to having been elected, but non- etheless, we have to mourn jointly and respect the families and what they’re going through. I appreciate it’s just short of a apology, but a retraction, I suppose, will do.

The next question, of course, arises from that same law- suit, where there are the allegations made about distribu- tion of large volumes of prescription medications, in para- graph 99: “The defendants have created or assisted in the creation of an epidemic of addiction in British Columbia and throughout each and every province and territory.

The actions of the defendants have caused deaths and serious and long-lasting injury to public peace, health, order and safety, significantly harming the plaintiff ” — that is, the province of British Columbia — “and impacting its ability to deliver health care to the citizens of British Columbia. ” Once again I assume the Premier stands by that state- ment. It of course raises an obvious question. Forty-nine American states have prescription monitoring programs; British Columbia does not.

British Columbia has had the PharmaNet system since 1993, where every filled prescrip- tion in this province is recorded in a central database that is available to clinicians. It has been there for 27 years. It has never been effectively used to monitor those situ- ations where an individual receives medications, some- times from multiple doctors without other doctors know- ing, and thereby becomes, inadvertently, addicted. It’s cer- tainly not a choice. It’s a disease; it’s an addiction. We’ve heard the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions say vague things about this, but we’v

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	20200814pm-Hansard-n360
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	20200814pm Hansard n360
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	cb9c7a45ecb833a55dab79e399b3d68eede3337c

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