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November 22, 2004

38th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

vol. A

Hansard Transcripts

vol. B

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2004-Nov-22 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Monday 22 November 2004 Lundi 22 novembre 2004

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

TORONTO ARGONAUTS

OMA AGREEMENT

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

GILLER PRIZE

OMA AGREEMENT

PIT BULLS

HEALTH CARE

DANIEL IANNUZZI

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

BUDGET MEASURES ACT (FALL), 2004 /

LOI DE 2004 SUR LES MESURES BUDGÉTAIRES (AUTOMNE)

MOTIONS

HOUSE SITTINGS

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

FALL BUDGET /

BUDGET DE L'AUTOMNE

DEFERRED VOTES

AUDIT STATUTE LAW

AMENDMENT ACT, 2004 /

LOI DE 2004 MODIFIANT DES LOIS

EN CE QUI CONCERNE

LA VÉRIFICATION DES COMPTES PUBLICS

ORAL QUESTIONS

OMA AGREEMENT

HEALTH CARE

PRIMARY CARE REFORM

HEALTH CARE

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

EDUCATION

OMA AGREEMENT

ADOPTION DISCLOSURE

GROWTH PLANNING

HEALTH CARE

ACCESS TO LEGISLATIVE

BUILDING GROUNDS

IMMIGRANTS' SKILLS

ACCESS TO LEGISLATIVE

BUILDING GROUNDS

PETITIONS

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

CHIROPRACTIC SERVICES

GASOLINE PRICES

HISTAMINE TREATMENT

TUITION

FREDERICK BANTING HOMESTEAD

CHIROPRACTIC SERVICES

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

YORK CENTRAL HOSPITAL

ONTARIO DRUG BENEFIT PROGRAM

CHIROPRACTIC SERVICES

AJAX-PICKERING HOSPITAL

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ELECTRICITY

RESTRUCTURING ACT, 2004 /

LOI DE 2004 SUR LA RESTRUCTURATION

DU SECTEUR DE L'ÉLECTRICITÉ

STRONG COMMUNITIES

(PLANNING AMENDMENT) ACT, 2004 /

LOI DE 2004 SUR LE RENFORCEMENT

DES COLLECTIVITÉS (MODIFICATION

DE LA

LOI SUR L'AMÉNAGEMENT

DU TERRITOIRE)

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

TORONTO ARGONAUTS

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): It's a pleasure to rise in the House today to salute our heroes, the Toronto Argonauts, who yesterday defied all the

odds to become the champions of the Canadian Football League in the 92nd Grey Cup, played in Ottawa. Last night in a packed Frank Clair Stadium, 51,242 fans watched as the timeless Damon Allen led

the Toronto Argonauts to their first Grey Cup in seven years, winning 27-19 over the BC Lions. An estimated five million Canadians watched the game on television. The win was also historic in that

Argos head coach Michael "Pinball" Clemons is the first black coach to ever lead a CFL team to a championship.

Closer to my riding, starting Argo wide receiver Andre Talbot, who attended Paul Dwyer High School, and his family, who still reside in Oshawa, had a strong game

pride. He represents Durham region proudly. Congratulations are also in order to co-owners David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski, who have done a remarkable job over the last year to improve the

fortunes once again of a proud football team. As my daughter-in-law, Rebecca O'Toole, said -- by the way, my daughter-in-law is manager of corporate relations -- this season has been a Cinderella

story. I might also add that our leader, John Tory, as a former CFL commissioner, shares in the pride of the comeback of the CFL.

I'd also like to note that our Premier has finally picked a winner and will be the recipient of grade A British Columbia beef, salmon and lamb. This truly is a

momentous day for our Premier. However, the irony of Mr McGuinty's victory is not lost on those of us from the GTA who realize that he only had to pick a team from Toronto to be a winner.

Mrs Donna H. Cansfield (Etobicoke Centre): I too, on behalf of all the members of this House, join the member from Durham to say congratulations

to the winners of this year's Grey Cup, the Toronto Argonauts. This is the fourth Grey Cup in 14 years, and it was won in spectacular fashion against the BC Lions last night in Ottawa. I was one of

thousands of people who watched that game. I know there were over 51,000 folks in the stadium, but there were a lot of folks watching the game, sitting at home. Some of them should have been

studying for exams but were watching the game anyway.

It was an incredible score, a rousing 27-17. Yay, Argonauts. It was just fantastic. So warm congratulations to the game MVP, Damon Allen, for his stellar

quarterbacking, and also to head coach "Pinball" Clemons. I don't know if you've ever heard him speak. He's an incredible speaker, often to young people, and gives just a rousing speech to

encourage young people to go ahead in the face of adversity and win, which is exactly what he did.

There is no question that the Premier will have to share some of that fine BC cuisine with caucus, I would suggest, since it's all of us who were together on

behalf of the Toronto Argonauts. Congratulations again.

OMA AGREEMENT

Mr Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North): I rise today to challenge the McGuinty government to start showing results when it comes to improving access

to health care for all Ontarians.

During the election, the Premier asked people to, and I quote, "Choose change. Choose the health care you need." But what has the Premier delivered instead? He's

failed Ontarians by introducing a health tax. He's failed Ontarians by delisting chiropractic, physiotherapy and optometry services. His latest health care failure is his government's inability to

reach an agreement with the province's doctors. This is not what Ontarians expected from the man who crowned himself the king of health care during the last provincial election.

The McGuinty government lost significant ground on health care this weekend when their $6.9-billion, four-year offer was rejected by nearly 60% of Ontario's

doctors. Without an agreement in place, the Premier will find it very difficult to move forward on his so-called health care agenda; the "transformation" is what he calls it. An air of conflict

will develop, forcing the Premier's focus away from keeping his health care promises -- as if anybody would believe he'd actually keep a promise now.

So I urge the Premier and his health minister to clean up their latest health care mess by sitting down immediately with Ontario's doctors to hammer out an

agreement that works for everyone. I think the citizens of this province are sick of paying more and getting less.

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): Today is National Housing Day, and today in cities and towns across this country, people are standing up to

voice their concerns about the lack of affordable housing. In fact, you don't have to go very much farther than the footsteps of Queen's Park here to see a couple of hundred people protesting the

lack of government action and the fact that so many of our citizens are forced to sleep on the mean streets every night.

In communities across Ontario, citizens are calling upon this government to keep their promise to address the crisis of affordable housing in Ontario. Housing

and homelessness issues go beyond those living on the streets, and housing advocates across the country have brought this to your attention. Over 158,000 families are on waiting lists for

affordable housing in Ontario; that number has gone up under your mandate. Families are on long waiting lists and have to wait one to five years, in most circumstances. One out of every five

persons is facing the frightening prospect of losing their home because of high rental costs.

It's time for the government to do something. There's a lot of talk about the deficit and about reduction on the government side of the House. Let's add the

deplorable deficit of affordable housing to that list and make this the need and the priority that you should be embracing.

GILLER PRIZE

Mrs Carol Mitchell (Huron-Bruce): I'm very pleased to rise today to congratulate Alice Munro, who is regarded as one of Canada's best authors of

short stories.

On November 11, she received for the second time the coveted Giller Prize, for her short story collection Runaway. The Giller award is given to outstanding

authors who write Canadian fiction. Alice Munro is a world-famous author who happens to be from Ontario and lives in my riding. Ms Munro is only the second person to win the Giller Prize twice, and

this short story collection has also been nominated for a Governor General's Award, Canada's highest literary prize.

Ms Munro often writes stories which reflect rural southwestern Ontario, and it is truly wonderful to have such an excellent author reflect the rural way of life

in her stories.

Once again, let me congratulate Alice Munro on being such a successful author and a strong voice for Canadian literature.

OMA AGREEMENT

Mr Jim Wilson (Simcoe-Grey): The competence of the McGuinty government is once again in doubt as members of the Ontario Medical Association

voted to reject an offer proposed by this untrustworthy Liberal government. Our doctors have articulated an understandable vote of non-confidence in the McGuinty government's health care plan which

has seen waiting lists soar and patients pay more as the government moves to privatize essential health services.

The majority of family physicians, older long-practising doctors, medical specialists and an overall 60% of Ontario's physicians rejected the government's OMA

tentative agreement. Clearly, Ontario's doctors felt that this deal was bad for them and bad for the patients they serve.

With over a million Ontarians without a family physician, this vote of non-confidence by our reliable and accomplished doctors has to be seen as a defeat and a

complete rejection of the Liberal health care plan. This government is making incompetent choices that are hampering their ability to attract and retain doctors. The defeat of the OMA agreement

further proves that Premier McGuinty and Minister Smitherman are out of touch with the needs of our front-line health workers.

I congratulate our doctors for recognizing how hollow the Liberal health policy actually is and for remaining committed to providing Ontarians with the best

access to health care and the best possible care. This government would be well advised to observe the concerns of our doctors and act quickly to ensure that Ontario continues to be an attractive

place to practise medicine.

Bulldog Smitherman has been sent to the pound, where he belongs. You can't trust this government to deal fairly with Ontario's doctors, and they've sent this

government a very strong message in that regard.

PIT BULLS

Ms Judy Marsales (Hamilton West): I have received many impassioned e-mails from various members of the general public regarding the pit bull

issue. However, I am very, very concerned about some recent attacks, and I think these e-mails fly in the face of the reality.

Last week, we heard about a 12-year-old boy in Cambridge who was delivering newspapers with his mother. Both were victims of a savage and unprovoked attack. The

boy's face was mauled, and his lip was almost bitten off and left dangling. The mother needed stitches and staples, and the boy, reconstructive surgery.

Today, we learned of another savage and unprovoked attack over the weekend in Hamilton. A nine-year-old boy was playing with the family dog, a pit bull, when it

snapped and, in the words of the boy's mother, "went psycho." The boy was bitten on his ear, thigh, shoulder and buttocks and needed stitches. The boy's mother said it best when she said, "I've

been defending pit bulls tooth and nail and saying it's the owner's fault, but not any more."

These are not isolated incidents. It seems that every week there's another attack. The solution is clear and it's before this House: Bill 132 would ban pit

bulls. Over time, it would mean no more pit bulls and no more attacks like this one in Hamilton. Both of these attacks involve dogs covered by the definition proposed in Bill 132.

It's never been easy to make difficult decisions, but that's the essence of good leadership. I would ask the opposition to get on the side of these victims, and

I would ask them to get on the side of the community and community safety. And I would ask you to support Bill 132.

HEALTH CARE

Mr David Orazietti (Sault Ste Marie): Our government has made record investments in numerous areas of health care in Ontario. We are working to

improve our health care system so that it can better respond to the needs of Ontarians. That is why we're investing in nurses, home care, long-term care, public health and mental health. That is

why we're moving on disease prevention and internationally trained medical graduates.

Let's not overlook what leaders in our health care community are saying. The executive director of the Registered Nurses Association of Ontario, Doris Grinspun,

on funding for 1,000 nurses: "It's given them hope. I believe we are going to become the magnet province in this country."

The CEO of the Ontario Community Support Association, Joe McReynolds: "The government is to be applauded for not accepting the status quo in home care and for

actively searching to see how clients can be better served in their local communities."

The executive director of the Ontario Federation of Community Mental Health and Addiction Programs, David Kelly: "We're ... excited that after 12 years the

Minister of Health and the government of Ontario have recognized the need to support addiction and mental health programs ... in the community. It's fantastic."

The president of the Association of International Physicians and Surgeons, Uday Shankardass: "The establishment of IMG Ontario represents a significant step

toward creating more opportunities for Ontario's internationally trained physicians to integrate into the health care system."

It's clear that, unlike the past two governments, our government is making significant progress in transforming our health care system to better serve

Ontarians.

DANIEL IANNUZZI

Mr Mike Colle (Eglinton-Lawrence): It is with great sadness that I rise today to mark the passing of Canada's multicultural champion and media

pioneer, Danny Iannuzzi.

Born in Montreal, Daniel Andrea Iannuzzi lived in Toronto for the last 50 years and died suddenly on Saturday, in Rome.

Mr Iannuzzi was the founder of the Corriere Canadese, the Canadian-Italian daily newspaper that just celebrated its 50th anniversary. He was the founder of the

world's foremost multilingual television station, CFMT, in 1979.

Mr Iannuzzi, a third-generation Canadian, was a staunch and fierce voice for Toronto's and Canada's Italian community, but his contributions were not limited to

the Italian community. He was a pioneer in multicultural communications. He was relentless in his efforts to promote Canada, its people and its accomplishments. As his motto for his newspaper said,

"Fiercely Canadian, proudly Italian."

His efforts to help bring Canadians of all walks of life together has often been celebrated, and he was honoured by being inducted into the Order of Canada in

1989. He became a member of the Order of Canada in 1990.

Dan, you accomplished so much. You helped make Canada a better place for us all, no matter what our country of origin. To your family, on behalf of the Premier

and the entire Liberal caucus and all the members of the Legislature, our sympathies are with you. With a heavy heart, we say, "Arrivederci, Dan."

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Standing order 62(

a) provides that "the standing committee on estimates shall present one report with respect

to all of the estimates and supplementary estimates considered pursuant to standing orders 59 and 61 no later than the third Thursday in November of each calendar year."

The House not having received a report from the standing committee on estimates for certain ministries on Thursday, November 18, 2004, as required by the

standing orders of this House, pursuant to standing order 62(b), the estimates before the committee of the Ministry of Transportation, the Ministry of Agriculture and Food, the Ministry of the

Environment, the Ministry of Community and Social Services, the Ministry of Economic Development and Trade, and the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines are deemed to be passed by the

committee and are deemed to be reported to and received by the House.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

BUDGET MEASURES ACT (FALL), 2004 /

LOI DE 2004 SUR LES MESURES BUDGÉTAIRES (AUTOMNE)

Mr Sorbara moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 149,

An Act to implement 2004 Budget measures, enact the Northern Ontario Grow Bonds Corporation Act, 2004 and amend various Acts / Projet de loi 149,

Loi mettant en oeuvre certaines mesures énoncées dans le Budget de 2004, édictant la Loi de 2004 sur la Société d'émission d'obligations de développement du Nord

de l'Ontario et modifiant diverses lois.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Mr Sorbara?

Hon Greg Sorbara (Minister of Finance): During ministers' statements.

MOTIONS

HOUSE SITTINGS

Hon Dwight Duncan (Minister of Energy, Government House Leader): I move that, pursuant to standing order 9(c)(i), the House shall meet from 6:45

pm till 9:30 pm on Monday, November 22, 2004, for the purpose of considering government business.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye."

All those against, please say "nay."

I think the ayes have it.

Call in the members. There will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1350 to 1355.

The Speaker: Mr Duncan has moved government notice of motion number 228. All those in favour, please rise one at a time.

Ayes

Arthurs, Wayne

Baird, John R.

Bartolucci, Rick

Bentley, Christopher

Berardinetti, Lorenzo

Bountrogianni, Marie

Broten, Laurel C.

Brownell, Jim

Bryant, Michael

Caplan, David

Chambers, Mary Anne V.

Chudleigh, Ted

Colle, Mike

Cordiano, Joseph

Crozier, Bruce

Delaney, Bob

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duncan, Dwight

Dunlop, Garfield

Flaherty, Jim

Flynn, Kevin Daniel

Fonseca, Peter

Hardeman, Ernie

Jackson, Cameron

Jeffrey, Linda

Kwinter, Monte

Leal, Jeff

Marsales, Judy

Martiniuk, Gerry

Matthews, Deborah

Mauro, Bill

McMeekin, Ted

McNeely, Phil

Mitchell, Carol

O'Toole, John

Orazietti, David

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Peterson, Tim

Phillips, Gerry

Pupatello, Sandra

Qaadri, Shafiq

Racco, Mario G.

Ramal, Khalil

Ramsay, David

Rinaldi, Lou

Ruprecht, Tony

Sandals, Liz

Scott, Laurie

Sergio, Mario

Smitherman, George

Sorbara, Greg

Takhar, Harinder S.

Tascona, Joseph N.

Van Bommel, Maria

Watson, Jim

Wilkinson, John

Wilson, Jim

Witmer, Elizabeth

Wong, Tony C.

Wynne, Kathleen O.

Zimmer, David

The Speaker: All those against, please rise.

Nays

Bisson, Gilles

Churley, Marilyn

Hampton, Howard

Kormos, Peter

Marchese, Rosario

Prue, Michael

The Clerk of the Assembly (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 62; the nays are 6.

The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

FALL BUDGET /

BUDGET DE L'AUTOMNE

Hon Greg Sorbara (Minister of Finance): A few moments ago I introduced our government's fall budget bill. That bill is designed to implement a

number of key initiatives in our government's first budget.

As you will recall, our budget set out a comprehensive plan to transform health care, education, the economy and the business of government itself. We

committed ourselves then, and we remain committed today, to a new era of openness and transparency in government, to renewed investment in essential public services, to stimulate a new generation

of economic growth, and to build a stronger, healthier and more prosperous economy in this great province.

Nous sommes toujours engagés à établir une nouvelle ère d'ouverture et de transparence au sein du gouvernement, à effectuer des

investissements renouvelés dans les services publics essentiels, à stimuler une nouvelle génération de croissance économique, et à bâtir une économie plus

forte dans cette province extraordinaire.

Earlier this month, I presented our fall economic statement and fiscal review. There were three main themes to the statement: first, that our plan to restore

this province to financial health is right on track; second, that the Ontario economy is now gaining strength; and third, that the need for restraint is essential if we are to modernize public

services, and indeed the economy itself.

This fall budget bill completes the legislative work to implement our plan to promote prosperity and improve public services. It provides for a number of

investments in economic growth, including the phase-out of the capital tax, beginning on January 1, 2005. I should tell you that by 2008, more than 13,000 medium-sized corporations will no longer

pay capital tax, and the tax would be fully eliminated by January 1, 2012.

We're investing in innovation. We're proposing to create the Ontario commercialization investment funds program. That program would provide some $36 million in

assistance to leverage up to $120 million in new pools of seed capital for spinoff technology companies.

We're investing in our workforce. In the budget, I announced our plan to transform the Ontario apprenticeship system. We're proposing now to invest $11.7

million annually by 2006-07 to expand the number of young people registering in apprenticeships to 26,000. Today, I am pleased to introduce the new apprenticeship training tax credit. That credit

is going to encourage employers to hire and train apprentices in certain skilled trades. It would pay up to $5,000 of an eligible apprentice's salary each year for three years. In short, that means

good jobs and a better future for our young people.

We're investing in the north. The fall budget bill provides for the creation of the Northern Ontario Grow Bonds Corp. If passed, we will soon see emerging

entrepreneurs from the north get access to the capital they need through low-interest loans that they can use to create more jobs in the north.

We're investing in seniors. This bill proposes the first increase to the Ontario property tax credit for seniors since it was created 12 years ago, an increase

of $125, or 25%.

Ce projet de loi propose la première augmentation du crédit d'impôt foncier pour les personnes âgées de l'Ontario depuis sa

création il y a 12 ans, soit une augmentation de 125 $ ou, en d'autres mots, 25 %.

That, by the way, is $125 more in the pockets of low- and middle-income seniors this year and every year. An estimated 685,000 seniors would benefit from the

program, including approximately 33,000 seniors who do not currently benefit from that property tax credit program.

Finally, we are investing in the modernization of government itself. A couple of weeks ago, I announced that we would be working with the federal government to

design a single federal tax collection system for both Ontario and federal corporate taxes. Today, I am proposing further modernization efforts with the elimination of some nine tax incentives.

For many years, we've seen a variety of tax credits and incentives designed to support various groups, individuals or areas of the province. Their goals are

respectable. But too many of these tax credits are no longer serving their intended purpose, they have little uptake, or are not in line with our current priorities. Eliminating these tax credits

will save the province some $85 million over the course of the next four years.

technology tax incentive -- together returned only $1 million to Ontario businesses. In fact, when you do the accounting, it costs us almost as much to administer these tax credits as it puts funds

in the pockets of those businesses.

In other words, the usefulness of these credits was wildly exaggerated by our predecessors, and we have better ways of supporting these goals. For example,

while we intend to eliminate the graduate transitions tax credit, we're proposing to enhance the Ontario commercialization investment funds program. In other words, instead of paying companies to

hire recent graduates, we'll be using the brainpower of those graduates to help create spin-off technology companies.

I want to tell you that underlying all of these initiatives will be a single, unifying commitment: our plan to build a stronger, healthier economy.

The fall budget bill represents a significant milestone toward achieving that plan. It's a long bill, admittedly. It's the first fall budget bill in two years.

It has a number of technical measures to improve the efficiency and clarity of our tax system. I believe that every government should engage in that kind of renewal and clarification.

In fact, the bill has some 31 such measures in it that were left over from the previous administration because they were not able to pass their last budget

bill. I want to assure the members of this House that we will be working with them to enhance everyone's understanding of all of the provisions of this bill. I would ask members of the House to

give the bill due consideration and, when it comes time, to cast a vote in favour of restoring Ontario's financial health and in favour of a much stronger economy.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Responses?

Mr Jim Flaherty (Whitby-Ajax): The minister says at the end of his statement, "We will work with members ... to enhance their understanding of

its many provisions." This is what he's talking about. This is the bill that he just introduced in this Legislature. My staff called his office about an hour and a half ago and asked for the

decency of a review of the bill in the last hour and a half. We were told, "Oh, you know how the game is played." That is, you'll see it when you come into the Legislature. This is the openness,

the transparency, the arrogance of this group opposite. This is the way they treat members of the Legislative Assembly.

He's right about one thing: It's a long bill. He said that it's a long bill; it has 31 measures in it. We'll have more to say about those measures as we go

forward.

It is a serious matter. The economy of Ontario is a serious matter. This minister, this government, has now had a fall economic statement last year, a budget

in the spring of this year, and another economic statement in the fall of this year. What do we hear? We hear that there is a plan. We look for the plan. Where is the fiscal and economic plan for

the province of Ontario?

Hon Mr Sorbara: Read the budget.

Mr Flaherty: Oh, I read the budget. The Minister of Finance says, "Read the budget." He says he's going to review programs, including the LCBO

-- read your budget, Minister -- on page 27. We haven't seen it yet. Where is the review? Where is the plan? Where are the appointments? When are we going to see this review happen?

We're already in November 2004. You've been the government for 14 months. What have they done during the 14 months? Increased taxes by $7 billion, the largest

tax hike in the history of the province of Ontario. What is the result? He says that the economy is strengthening. Retail sales tax is down by more than $150 million in his own fall economic

statement. A strengthening economy: lower house sales; new housing starts are down. The Royal Bank says that new housing starts will be down 12% next year. This is what the Minister of Finance is

proud of.

The people of Ontario do need a plan. They need a plan with respect to health expenses, a plan with respect to education expenses, a plan with respect to

social services. But we don't see the plan. We hear platitudes, but we don't see the plan.

In health care, which takes up almost half the operating side of the budget, what do we see? We see a failed agreement with the physicians of Ontario. We see

confrontation with the hospitals and the volunteers who serve on the boards of those hospitals across the province. We see conflict. That's what we see in health care in Ontario. We also see fewer

services for the people of Ontario. Pay more, get less in health care after 14 months of this Minister of Finance, this Minister of Health, this Premier in Ontario.

In education, what do we see? We see a proposed hard cap of 20 students per class through grade 3 -- wasteful. We need literacy. We need numeracy. We need

enhanced computer skills in Ontario. Where is the plan to accomplish what the parents of Ontario want?

In social services, what do we see? We see a decision in the Supreme Court on Friday saying that it's up to the politicians to address the very serious issue

of our children with autism. Do we see anything happening here, any plan there? No.

There's failure at every important level of government, and those three -- health, education and social services -- are where the big part of the budget is.

The Minister of Finance must know that. But what does he do? Of 31 proposed measures, none, that I can tell -- I've only been able to look at this for about 10 minutes -- deal with those

fundamental issues to the people of Ontario. It would be something worth getting angry about were it not so sad, were it not such a letdown. The broken promises and then the incompetence, the

failure to address the needs of the people of Ontario -- these are very serious matters.

What about the border issues? Nothing has been done to help us at Fort Erie, Windsor and Niagara. What about the housing issues? What about our infrastructure?

We must have infrastructure improvements if the economy in Ontario is to grow. Surely, that's part of this plan in the budget that the minister talks about. But there's no meat on the bones. It's

just talk. It's just platitudes. The people of Ontario need more.

The Speaker: Before I ask for responses from the third party, I'd ask the government side to be a little bit more co-operative and let me

listen to the third party's response.

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): I walked in here today and saw a little package on my desk, and I thought, "There must be a statement

about to be made." It was the first that I had heard of it. So I went into the backroom and asked, "Do you have the full compendium of the bill, with all of the amendments?" This is what they

handed me. So I've listened to the minister now for a few minutes, and I guess I'm going to have to respond. I'm a pretty quick study, I think.

I opened it up to a couple of the 35 or so things that are being changed. The first one that grabbed my attention was

section 32.

This is a real beauty for anybody who thinks that your property is your own property.

Section 32 says that the province of Ontario can now seize people's

property from the Province of Ontario Savings Office under the privatization act of 2002. What this says is that if you have a safety deposit box that has now gone to Desmarais, that can be seized

by the government if it is deemed to be inactive, and the contents of unclaimed safety deposit boxes from the Province of Ontario Savings Office can go directly to general revenue of the province.

Talk about a cash grab. This is the most blatant tax grab I have ever seen. Someone who does not, perhaps due to old age or infirmity or being outside of the country, even understand that the

Province of Ontario Savings Office has been sold off and is now part of Desmarais is about to lose the entire contents of their safety deposit box to the Ontario government. That's just one

section.

I had a chance to read a couple of others while I was listening to the minister, and I tried to listen to his speech. Here's another beauty: He's going to

eliminate four what he calls tax incentives. The first one he wants to eliminate is the workplace child care tax incentive. This is the government that ran on a platform of having thousands and

tens of thousands more child care centres. Instead of giving incentives for workplaces to have child care centres in them, which is very progressive, they take away the very money that is intended

to do it; they do away with the program. Now, I know the amount was pretty small, but it could have been made bigger. That was the alternative: to make it better and keep the program in place.

Instead, you get rid of the program on something you ran on in the last election.

to work, who want to put in various devices so that the blind are able to read. This is an opportunity for people who are hearing-impaired to actually be able to work. This is an opportunity for

progressive employers to do something about it. Now, I know the money is small, but what you chose to do was to do away with this instead of augmenting it. I sat here and I listened to member after

member talk about the Ontarians with Disabilities Act and how that was going to help over 25 years, but here's something that can help right now, and it's being done away with. I can't believe

you're doing this.

I went on to read some more. There are 31 tax measures which were left over from the previous government, and you say this; you blatantly say it. You condemn

the Conservatives, but then you say there were 31 such measures in it that were left over from the previous government because they failed to pass their last budget bill. So instead of them acting

like Tories, you act like Tories, because what you've done is you've adopted the Magna budget. You've adopted the Magna budget, right down to the very point. I stood in this Legislature, in this

House, four times in the last several weeks --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): The member from Simcoe North.

Mr Prue: -- documenting what is happening to a family in eastern Ontario, where they applied for a program to outfit their van for their

disabled child. They did that, and I looked in here. You know, the government waffled all over and was deciding whether the computer was wrong or the program was wrong. Well, I want to tell you

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): They didn't put it back in?

Mr Prue: No, they didn't put it back in. It's gone for good.

That's all I could find in 15 minutes, but I'll tell you, we're going to read this. There has to be a lot more horror in this bill than I've been able to find

in five minutes.

DEFERRED VOTES

AUDIT STATUTE LAW

AMENDMENT ACT, 2004 /

LOI DE 2004 MODIFIANT DES LOIS

EN CE QUI CONCERNE

LA VÉRIFICATION DES COMPTES PUBLICS

Deferred vote on the motion for third reading of Bill 18,

An Act respecting the Provincial Auditor / Projet de loi 18, Loi concernant le vérificateur

provincial.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Call in the members. There will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1420 to 1425.

The Speaker: Mr Sorbara has moved third reading of Bill 18. All those in favour, please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Ayes

Arthurs, Wayne

Baird, John R.

Bartolucci, Rick

Bentley, Christopher

Berardinetti, Lorenzo

Bisson, Gilles

Bountrogianni, Marie

Broten, Laurel C.

Brownell, Jim

Bryant, Michael

Cansfield, Donna H.

Caplan, David

Chambers, Mary Anne V.

Chudleigh, Ted

Churley, Marilyn

Colle, Mike

Cordiano, Joseph

Crozier, Bruce

Delaney, Bob

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duncan, Dwight

Dunlop, Garfield

Flaherty, Jim

Flynn, Kevin Daniel

Fonseca, Peter

Hardeman, Ernie

Hudak, Tim

Jackson, Cameron

Jeffrey, Linda

Kennedy, Gerard

Kormos, Peter

Kwinter, Monte

Leal, Jeff

Marchese, Rosario

Marsales, Judy

Martiniuk, Gerry

Matthews, Deborah

Mauro, Bill

McGuinty, Dalton

McMeekin, Ted

McNeely, Phil

Milloy, John

Mitchell, Carol

O'Toole, John

Orazietti, David

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Peterson, Tim

Phillips, Gerry

Prue, Michael

Pupatello, Sandra

Qaadri, Shafiq

Racco, Mario G.

Ramal, Khalil

Ramsay, David

Rinaldi, Lou

Ruprecht, Tony

Sandals, Liz

Scott, Laurie

Sergio, Mario

Smith, Monique

Smitherman, George

Sorbara, Gregory S.

Takhar, Harinder S.

Tascona, Joseph N.

Van Bommel, Maria

Watson, Jim

Wilkinson, John

Wilson, Jim

Witmer, Elizabeth

Wong, Tony C.

Wynne, Kathleen O.

Zimmer, David

The Clerk of the Assembly (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 73; the nays are 0.

The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

Be it resolved that the bill do now pass and be entitled as in the motion.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I'd like to hear the point of order.

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): Mr Speaker, on a point of order: I would seek unanimous consent to name the bill the Bart Maves bill.

The Speaker: Do we have unanimous consent? I heard a no.

ORAL QUESTIONS

OMA AGREEMENT

Mr John R. Baird (Nepean-Carleton): My question today is to the Minister of Health. It concerns the competence of his government, and it also

concerns the abject failure of his understanding of and his relationship with Ontario's physicians. The overwhelming rejection of your health deal with Ontario doctors is a huge vote of

non-confidence in you and in the McGuinty Liberals. The Liberal plan has been soundly rejected by the people whom Ontario families trust: our local physicians. Your health scheme is in ruins.

Minister, will you now table your plan B in this House so that the people of Ontario can regain some amount of confidence in your ability to manage your department?

Hon George Smitherman (Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): I think the honourable member, instead of asking a question like that, should

turn around and speak to the gentleman who sits behind him. What he'll find is a very quick lesson in history. The lesson in history that he would find is that doctors voted 75% against the first

agreement that they came to a conclusion on with their government.

The fact remains that we're disappointed that the nine long months of negotiations that resulted in a unanimous agreement with the Ontario Medical Association

bargaining team did not result in favour this past weekend as the results came forward. But our government, on behalf of Ontarians, remains very committed to the principles we fought for in that

agreement: to drive more doctors back to underserviced communities, to address the critical wait-time priorities that we have worked to do, and for the kind of comprehensive care that can assist

people with chronic diseases to manage those diseases. We'll continue to fight for those principles in any arrangement.

Mr Baird: I say to the minister, the last time physicians in Ontario voted on such an agreement brought forward by that woman, they got 66% to

vote in favour, so I wouldn't be too smug.

This is less a question of how our doctors will be paid and more a question of whether doctors can trust you and the McGuinty government. It's a question of

trust and a question of credibility.

Your motive, in attempting to back-end-load your secretive deal, was clear. You wanted to be able to brag and bully our nurses and health care workers into

low-wage settlements at the same time as you were making a back-end-loaded deal with our physicians, with some doctors getting as much as 36%. When you told Ontario doctors that the cheque was in

the mail next year, they didn't believe you because they don't trust you.

Now that you've been caught saying one thing to our nurses and another thing to our doctors, would you now admit that honesty would have been the best

policy?

Hon Mr Smitherman: What is an important message to send to Ontarians is that this gentleman is not a voice for Ontario's doctors. Ontario's

doctors were at their posts on Friday, they were at their posts on Saturday and Sunday, and they're at their posts today, doing the hard work that they do on behalf of Ontarians, which we have a

considerable degree of respect for, evidenced by the fact that we put significant resources on the table to address the nature of that work.

Our government's agenda with respect to health care is a comprehensive one. We're moving forward on a considerable number of fronts: reform to long-term care

and more resources for community care in the form of home care. Primary care reform is an essential element of that, and we will continue to work with Ontario's doctors and others who are

interested in reforming the nature of practice to address the realities. The reality, clearly, is that the status quo is not the acceptable circumstance, although it's what they campaigned for, and

we're working hard to address it.

Mr Baird: Ontario's physicians don't need anyone on the opposition side to speak for them; they've spoken very loudly and very clearly about

your competence and your government's trustworthiness.

The worst thing for working families in Ontario about the overwhelming rejection of this deal is that it shows just how out of touch you and your government

are about the reality of health care on the front lines. We desperately need to train and attract new physicians to Ontario. Far too many patients and their families lack physicians, but your

failed scheme clearly failed to recognize this reality. It's clear that you don't understand that one in 10 doctors in Ontario is over the age of 65. Minister, one in six doctors is facing

retirement imminently, and your failed scheme failed to recognize the reality of their practice in Ontario.

Minister, don't you think you owe experienced, well-trained physicians, who have given so much to this province, an apology for your failure to acknowledge

their reality in this scheme?

Hon Mr Smitherman: It sounds passing strange that the honourable member, who was part of a government that oversaw the growth in the number of

communities in the province of Ontario underserviced for physicians growing from 62 to 133 on their watch, should lecture us about training and attraction.

The reality is that as a result of our government's funding initiatives, the Northern Ontario Medical School will see 56 students go into classes next

September. Incredibly, on our watch in just one short year we have managed to triple the number of spots for international medical graduate training to drive doctors into communities.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): The member from Simcoe Grey and the member from Durham, could you just come to order and stop shouting across

the hall.

New question.

Mr Baird: To the same minister: I say directly to the minister, your review of history from the last millennium in Ontario isn't going to help

one physician or one patient who desperately needs a family doctor in the province of Ontario.

Minister, I don't think it was, at the end of the day, a question of the bottom line in financial terms that caused your deal to crash and burn so badly this

past weekend. Do you know what it was, Minister? It was the very professionalism of our physicians in Ontario that was an obstacle to this agreement.

Even the OMA has formally acknowledged what many physicians have already said publicly: that the language surrounding your secret side deal aimed at reducing

prescription drugs for the frail elderly, for the disabled and for poor Ontarians was wrong, unethical and bad health care policy. Will you stand in your place and say that this scheme to go after

our most vulnerable was wrong, and will you say that it will be dead on arrival when you rejoin the bargaining table with our physicians?

Hon Mr Smitherman: Here again, the honourable member doesn't take advantage of resources that are so close to him. If he would dare to speak

to his seatmate, he'd find that the honourable member beside him is the one who first made the claim that Ontario's seniors in particular are the most overmedicated to be found anywhere in the

universe.

In the preface to his question, the honourable member said that there's nothing in this agreement to address the realities for local communities. Why is it

then that rural doctors voted 70% in favour of this agreement, and that 94% of medical students voted in favour of this agreement? As a government, we are working harder than that government did in

providing more results in addressing the critical shortages of doctors. Evidence is there. International medical graduates -- when we came to office, Ontario had the capacity to produce 65 IMGs

annually and put them into practice in Ontario. On our watch, that tripled to 200.

Mr Baird: This all comes down to your competence and the competence of the McGuinty Liberals. You had no strategy to reach out to physicians

other than to continue the bully, tough-guy approach that has been the hallmark of your tenure as Minister of Health.

Furthermore, one of the big reasons this deal crashed and burned was because physicians were concerned about the waiting times for their patients. Right in the

middle of the ratification debate among physicians and providers in Ontario, your wait times guru, Dr Alan Hudson, let the cat out of the bag. Your chief waitlist guru said, "I can't promise that

the McGuinty Liberals will get waiting times down by 2006."

Will you now admit that your failed scheme to reduce waiting lists was a big part of the failure of this agreement, and that the agreement contained nothing to

get waiting lists down in Ontario? Will you do us all a favour and take that to the bargaining table when you try to re-engineer this failed policy?

Hon Mr Smitherman: I think the honourable member would be wise to acknowledge that the $107 million investment in wait times last week for

2004-05 has the very immediate effect of reducing wait times for Ontarians. For those Ontarians who have been waiting for cataract surgery, they immediately gain the benefit of a reduced wait time,

from the fact that we're funding 2,000 additional surgeries this year alone for people with cataracts. It makes the point rather well that as a government we're working not only to address wait

times by increasing volumes, but we're also doing the hard work that you failed to do as a government, and that was to build the capacity to properly manage wait times. Not only will we build that

capacity; we'll put that information on a Web site and make it available to Ontarians, because in working with Ontarians and health care providers, we are committed to an agenda which drives more

resources to wait times and gets doctors back into local communities.

Mr Baird: Physicians work in hospitals. Physicians see the scheme that you brought forward last week. You see, here's the math. Health care

services in Ontario hospitals will be cut back by $600 million, and your lame attempt to put in $107 million will still see a reduction in hospital services by upwards of $493 million.

The London Health Sciences Centre, with a 0.2% budget increase, is going to have to lay off nurses. These doctors need to work with those nurses.

The 1.8% budget increase in Ottawa is going to lead to closing emergency rooms. It's going to lead to closing surgical rooms.

That's why physicians voted so heavily against your deal. Will you now admit that this has been a complete failed policy, and will you table the full cost of

this failed attempt so that we can have some transparency as we pick up the pieces from this mess that you've created?

Hon George Smitherman: It's interesting to watch the member, who so garbled the math of fiscal realities in the province when in government,

continue the same theme now.

Here are the facts on hospitals: $700 million more from our government than their budget proposed for hospitals; the London Health Sciences Centre -- Tony

Dagnone, last week, after my speech to the Ontario Hospital Association, himself acknowledged that we are going to be able to do better than the projections that had been made in the London

community; more than $1 billion invested in Ontario hospitals since we came to power.

Only the honourable member opposite could portray a $469.5-million investment, a half-a-billion-dollar investment, as a cut. That's the Tory math. That's the

kind of math that resulted in Ontarians facing an enormous budget deficit, and that is what we're working hard as a government to confront. The people of Ontario will not fall victim again to the

kind of math that the honourable member brings forward.

Mr Jim Wilson (Simcoe-Grey): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I want an apology from the health minister. I don't recall any deal by the OMA

being rejected under the previous government --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. That's not a point of order.

Interjection.

The Speaker: Order, the member for Eglinton-Lawrence.

Hon Sandra Pupatello (Minister of Community and Social Services, minister responsible for women's issues): Where's my apology? You closed

two.

The Speaker: Order, Minister.

New question. The leader of the third party.

HEALTH CARE

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): My question is for the Premier. My question concerns the mess your government, the McGuinty

government, is making of our health care system.

This weekend, you completed your botching of the OMA deal with the doctors. Your health minister's arrogance, bullying and incompetence led physicians to

reject the OMA deal decisively. Now ordinary Ontarians worry about the McGuinty era of health instability and what it means for them. With your doctors' deal in tatters, your high-sounding promises

to reduce the doctor shortage and to reduce waiting lists and waiting times will be the next failure. Premier, what is your plan B? Is it the same as plan A?

Hon Dalton McGuinty (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): Let me just say at the outset how absolutely pleased I am with the

efforts that are continuing to be made by our Minister of Health, George Smitherman, on behalf of the people of Ontario. In his words, nobody ever said this was going to be easy. But we are not

defenders of the status quo, as the member opposite most assuredly is. We have a very comprehensive plan to transform the delivery of health care in Ontario. One part of that plan has to do with a

new arrangement with Ontario's doctors. We look forward to continuing to work with our doctors in that regard. But we have a very broad, very comprehensive plan, and we will continue to move

forward on the entirety of that plan.

Mr Hampton: Your new arrangement with doctors? They just voted it down, Premier. Hello. Here's your plan as it's been unfolding:

First, you whack lower- and modest-income people with a regressive and unfair health tax. Then you cut chiropractic, physiotherapy and optometry. Then you

underfund our hospitals so that they start looking at cuts to basic health services. Then you boast about your plan with Ontario doctors, but it is decisively rejected.

Premier, do you have a plan to fix the health care mess that your government has created? If you have a plan, please tell us what it is. Is it the same as plan

A, which just failed?

Hon Mr McGuinty: One of the concerns that Ontario's doctors continue to rightly express is the shortage of physicians in the province of

Ontario. Here is what Dr John Rapin, president of the OMA, said just a couple of weeks ago: "As the OMA predicted at the time, 10 years later this decision in itself" -- he's making reference to

the NDP decision to cut medical school spaces -- "bears much of the blame for the current shortage of all types of physicians in Ontario, including the one million patients who do not have access

to a family physician."

If the member opposite would care to listen, I will tell him that we are opening up a new medical school in northern Ontario, so we'll have more medical school

graduates in the province. I will tell him as well that we are more than doubling the number of spaces in residency programs for our international medical graduates, from 90 to 200. So if he wants

to know what we are doing to move ahead to create more opportunities for doctors to be trained in the province of Ontario, that is what we are doing.

Mr Hampton: So far, you've talked about a medical school in northern Ontario. The Conservatives announced and reannounced that twice. That's

nothing new. That is simply a repetition of what the Conservatives had as their scheme.

But your plan is in shambles. You boasted about it, your health minister boasted about it, and now the doctors have overwhelmingly defeated it.

Premier, what's your plan? Plan A didn't work. What's plan B, or is it the same as plan A? What's your plan?

Hon Mr McGuinty: The last time I checked, the sun is still rising in the east and setting in the west and families today are still accessing

primary care and services being provided by hard-working Ontario doctors. But since they are interested in the balance of our plan, Speaker, I'll take the opportunity to enlighten them just a bit

more in that regard.

We have funding in place so far for 2,400 new full-time nurses under our plan. We have a plan to create 150 new family health teams. We've already received

applications, unsolicited, from 90 communities for those kinds of teams. We have a brand new vaccination program that will vaccinate more than two million children, saving families $600 per child.

We're expanding home care coverage in the province of Ontario. This is proceeding, by the way, notwithstanding the lack of an agreement with doctors, to cover 100,000 more Ontarians. We're

improving care in our long-term-care centres, in our nursing homes. We'll make sure we have a nurse there on a 24/7 basis. When it comes to public health, we're increasing the provincial share of

funding from 50% to 75%. We're expanding community health opportunities to cover 78,000 more adults and 7,000 more children.

I could go on at considerable length.

PRIMARY CARE REFORM

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): To the Premier, this is about primary health care reform. Remember when you and the Minister of Health

used to boast about your plan for primary health care reform? This is what it amounted to: You were going to have a backroom deal with the doctors; meanwhile, you were going to ignore all of the

other primary health care providers. It failed. It didn't work. The doctors said no. They rejected it.

My question to you is, do you recognize that if we're going to get real primary health care reform, you have to talk to the nurse practitioners, you have to

talk to the nurses, you have to talk with the community health centres? Are you prepared to put together a plan where you talk to all the people and work with all the primary health care providers,

or is plan B the same as plan A: talk to the doctors in a backroom and hope that that will work?

Hon Dalton McGuinty (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): It's obvious that the member opposite is not familiar with our concept

of family health teams. I'll take the opportunity to enlighten him in that regard.

We have a plan to put 150 family health teams in place. As I just mentioned, we've received unsolicited requests on behalf of 90 separate communities so far

with respect to family health teams. A family health team is a multidisciplinary team consisting of doctors practising in a team with nurse practitioners, nurses and other health care

professionals. That's the whole idea behind our family health teams. As I say, we've already received 90 requests. We can and will proceed on those, regardless and independent of what we do with

the OMA through our agreement with them.

Mr Hampton: Now you're talking about family health teams. These are the same family health networks that Mike Harris and Ernie Eves used to

talk about. They're the same thing. They didn't work then, and now changing the terminology a bit isn't going to work.

Are you prepared to sit down and talk with the nurses and the nurse practitioners? Are you prepared to work with the pharmacists, nutritionists and mental

health professionals? Are you prepared to work with the full range of primary health care providers, or is plan B the same as plan A: go back to the backroom with the doctors and hope that somehow

that will work? What's your plan? Is plan B the same as plan A? Plan A has been rejected.

Hon Mr McGuinty: I know the Minister of Health is anxious to get in on this.

Hon George Smitherman (Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): The honourable member obviously has a difficult time grasping that family

health teams find their ideological roots in the community health centre movement -- something that under our government in the last few weeks we've increased funding for by $21 million, with 10

new community health centre satellites formed in the province of Ontario -- and that community health centres have helped to inform family health teams, which will be interdisciplinary. Last week,

I had the opportunity to speak to nurse practitioners, to meet with Patricia Agnew, who endorses our government's agenda with respect to that.

As relates to the agreement that was up for ratification: Yes, certainly, it didn't enjoy the favour we had hoped, but 78% of doctors who work in community

health centres supported it; 84% of doctors who work in health service organizations supported it; 94% of doctors who are medical students -- doctors of tomorrow -- supported it; 80% of doctors age

26 to 30 supported it.

The fact of the matter remains that in favour of the model of primary care reform that we are moving forward with, 150 family health teams will be built in

Ontario. Already, 90 communities in Ontario have said, "We want to be part of this action."

Mr Hampton: I swear I just heard Ernie Eves talking about how wonderful the Conservative family health networks were going to be.

Minister, here is your record as Minister of Health: You've attacked hospitals; you've attacked chiropractic, physiotherapy and eye care; you went after the

disabled, the poor, the frail and the elderly, and tried to take $200 million out of their prescription drug coverage; and you said that you had the ingredients of a transformative deal with

doctors, but now the transformative deal with doctors is gone.

I simply want to know from the McGuinty government: Does anybody over there have a plan? Plan A did not work. Does anybody in the McGuinty government have a

plan B for working out an agreement on primary care reform?

Hon Mr Smitherman: It's always good in this House when the honourable member can stand up with enough amnesia intact that he forgets about the

record of his party while in government. What was that?

Interjections.

Hon Mr Smitherman: Oh, apparently I've touched a nerve, because that party's record in government continues to haunt communities all across

Ontario. Our plan is clear: family health teams, 150 of them. And 90 communities in the province of Ontario have already stood up and said, "We want to be part of this."

Interjections.

Hon Mr Smitherman: What are they? Not doctors working alone, not doctors working --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I'm going to warn the member for Nepean-Carleton. The next time I may have to name you.

Hon Mr Smitherman: -- not doctors working alone; doctors working in practice. In practice with whom? With nurse practitioners, with nurses and

with pharmacists.

This is the plan that we're working to bring to the province of Ontario. Before fiscal year 2004-05 ends, we will announce the first 45 of these, and

communities all across Ontario will be the beneficiaries.

HEALTH CARE

Mrs Elizabeth Witmer (Kitchener-Waterloo): My question is for the Minister of Health. Today, a senior Liberal adviser from the Premier's

office said that the rejected OMA deal was only part of your McGuinty health plan and that this overwhelming rejection doesn't change your plan. In fact, that person said plan B is the same as plan

Now, if that is the case, Minister, your government is dangerously out of touch with the challenges and the realities facing front-line health care providers

in this province, as well as with what patients need and deserve. They need better access to care. They need shorter waiting times.

Starting with Bill 8, to the ongoing war that you have with hospitals, and now with the rejection of this OMA offer, your McGuinty health plan has been an

overwhelming failure. I ask you today, what steps are you going to take to regain the trust of the health care professionals and the patients and get back in touch with what is needed in this

province?

Hon George Smitherman (Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): The honourable member was the longest-presiding Minister of Health in the

government. It's interesting that a party that was repudiated by the public, in part as a result of their efforts in this essential public service, now seeks to create the impression that they did

well. The sad and pressing reality of their watch is that the number of communities in our province that were underserviced grew from 62 to 133. We're working to address that, and we're working

with vigour.

What is our agenda? Our agenda is the first investment in mental health in 12 years, $65 million; our agenda is a $103-million investment in home care to

dramatically expand our capacity to address that; our agenda is to move from crisis to confidence in long-term-care homes, after you left those in a very, very sorry state indeed --

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Thank you. Supplementary?

Hon George Smitherman: -- our agenda is primary health care reform --

The Speaker: Thank you. Supplementary?

Mrs Witmer: Minister, you don't have a response. By the way, the reason there are more underserviced communities is because we expanded the

designation to southern Ontario as well.

You know, you just don't seem to understand that your health plan has been a failure from start to finish. First you introduced Bill 8, a draconian bill,

without any consultation --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mrs Witmer: -- which is an affront to physician independence. Then you introduced your health tax, despite promising people in the election

that you wouldn't do so. Then you said you would not privatize health services; today, we have chiropractic, eye tests and physiotherapy privatized. In fact, people are paying more today for less

services. Then you promised to cut wait times and improve access to care --

The Speaker: Question.

Mrs Witmer: -- instead you're in a war with the hospitals. Now we have this deal. I ask you again, Minister, this deal was rejected on

Saturday. What steps are you now prepared to take to restore the trust and make sure you respond to the needs of the health care professionals and patients in this province?

Hon Mr Smitherman: I say, first off, that I'm incredibly proud of Bill 8. I think that Bill 8 will be seen, in the full light, as a bill that

has dramatically altered our ability to protect medicare, to end two-tier and to keep outside our borders American providers who sought to come in and prey on our most vulnerable. I think Roy

Romanow's comments stand in sharp contrast and with much more credibility than those of the honourable member. The member has made the point that on Saturday we had a result and today is Monday.

Today is Monday, and across Ontario, doctors have returned to do the work they do. We appreciate the excellent work they do. We have commitments to return doctors to service in communities and to

address wait times, and we will continue to advance these priorities on behalf of patients in the province of Ontario.

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): My question, in the absence of the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, is to the Premier. Today is

National Housng Day. People across this province are protesting the lack of affordable housing. In fact, you don't have to go any further than out to the front steps of Queen's Park to see many

people from across Ontario reminding you that adequate shelter is a human right. They are devastated by your broken promises on housing.

I'd just like to remind you, Premier, of what you promised. You promised 20,000 new affordable housing units, but they are not being delivered. You promised

rent supplements for 35,000 families; you haven't delivered on those. You promised 6,600 more supported units for people with mental health needs; you haven't delivered on that.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Question.

Mr Prue: Meanwhile, 158,000 families are waiting for affordable housing. Mr Premier, when it's so clearly needed, why do you continue to break

your promises?

Hon Dalton McGuinty (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): After the previous government abdicated responsibility for support of

affordable housing for eight years, I'm glad to report that this government is back in the business of affordable housing. I want to commend any Ontarian who is sincere in their efforts to heighten

the profile of this issue and to help us all understand that we have a shared responsibility when it comes to building affordable housing.

Let me tell you what we've announced so far, because I'm sure my colleague opposite missed it. In Waterloo, 597 units have been announced; London, 104 units;

Wellington, 94 units; Toronto, 895 units; Peel, 384 units; York, 118 units; Hamilton, 60 units; Peterborough, 90 units; Ottawa, 300 units; Kingston, 105 units. And we've just begun.

Mr Prue: Mr Premier, those announcements have been made not once, not twice, but at least 20 times in the last couple of years. Nothing has

been built. That's the problem.

Almost three years ago, the federal government said they would match provincial dollars. I know you weren't there for the whole time, but they put forward $700

million. To date, as far as I know, the province has spent $1.2 million of that. People are sleeping outside. There were people sleeping outside last night in front of city hall, and in fact they

sleep there every night. They want to know when you're going to keep your broken promises. When are you going to match the federal dollars that you committed to, when are you going to create rent

supplements for those who need them, and when are you going to create supportive housing for people with mental illness or other special needs? If you won't announce it today, on National Housing

Day, when will you announce it?

Mr Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina): Where's the pecunia?

Hon Mr McGuinty: Again, my friend opposite asks, "Where is the pecunia?" We've invested $65 million so far, announcing 2,747 units. I can also

say that we are actively negotiating with the federal government when it comes to a joint effort to build more affordable housing in Ontario.

But in addition to housing -- I know my friends opposite understand that this is a broader issue than just affordable housing itself -- I'm pleased that we've

been able to increase the minimum wage for the first time in nine years. I'm pleased that we've increased ODSP and welfare rates for the first time in a decade. I'm pleased that we've established a

rent bank, as well as an emergency hydro fund. I'm pleased that we've ended the lifetime ban on welfare, in keeping with the Kimberly Rogers inquest. I'm pleased that we've restored the nutritional

allowance for expectant mothers who find themselves on welfare in Ontario. I'm pleased as well that we've made the first investment in a dozen years in community mental health services. We have

moved forward in those areas and will continue to move forward in those areas, as well as in the area of affordable housing.

EDUCATION

Mr Peter Fonseca (Mississauga East): I have a question for the Minister of Education. This past week you made an announcement about a new

initiative, the Parent Voice in Education project. The purpose of this project is to determine the best means by which to establish an independent body in order to give parents a stronger voice

with regard to education issues.

The McGuinty government is committed to increasing transparency and accountability in government. Under the previous government, many groups felt excluded from

Hon Gerard Kennedy (Minister of Education): It is indeed a pleasure to acknowledge that for the first time in a number of years, parents will

have control over their own voice in education. There was, it should be noted, an Ontario Parent Council in the previous government, but it consisted of the parents that the previous government was

prepared to listen to. Instead, what we have said is that the parents in this province deserve better. They are an integral part of whether or not we will succeed with students in the future, and

we have given them resources. We have taken parents who already represent thousands of other parents, and within a few months' time they will make a recommendation for a permanent council that will

be representative of all parents in this province and will not have the guiding hand of government about who sits and speaks on behalf of parents in this province.

Mr Fonseca: I'm glad to hear that this new initiative will give Ontario's parents a voice at the table on education issues and concerns. My

riding of Mississauga East is part of the Peel region school boards. Peel region is unique in many ways, and I'm particularly glad that many of their concerns will be addressed through this

group.

Can you tell me what steps your ministry is taking to ensure that the selection process for the members of the Parent Voice in Education project properly

represent all regions and demographic groups in the province?

Hon Mr Kennedy: It is important that we have representation from around the province. This is just a project group to start with, but it is

one of the tasks that we put them to. We have a number of diversities in this province. One is geographic. So we have Anita Srinivasan from Mississauga, for example, to make sure that some of the

faster-growing areas that have unique education challenges are directly represented.

We've also put to people that we need to have all parents to be part of this. So we deliberately made sure that there are parents representing some of the

groups like recent immigrants, people with lower incomes, to make sure that we are truly trying to engage parents in their children's education.

We don't have any illusions that getting this started is going to solve this problem that has been around for some time, but it is more difficult, parents are

busier, and the challenge for students is greater. We do believe that we have a tremendous talent here that finally is going to tapped into, and that is the wishes and ambitions of parents on

behalf of their children, working on a framework that really does represent them for the first time.

OMA AGREEMENT

Mrs Elizabeth Witmer (Kitchener-Waterloo): My question is for the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. I was disappointed that you didn't

share with us in this House, and people watching, your next steps: how you're going to make sure that you do develop an agreement that is going to go far enough to ensure that patients will have

the health care they deserve, because Dr Rapin, the president of the OMA, said on Saturday, "This agreement does not go far enough to ensure patients will have the health care they deserve."

He went further and said, "The agreement contained no real incentives to keep the one in six physicians who are planning to retire in the next five years from

retiring now." He said, "We need actions that will reduce wait times and improve access to diagnostic tests and treatment today."

My question to you, Minister, is extremely simple. There's a lot of anxiety in the province today, and I ask you today, can you make a commitment today that

you will return to the bargaining table for further discussions in order that we can put the needs of patients first and foremost?

Hon George Smitherman (Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): The member, in her question, suggested that there was a lot of anxiety today in

Ontario, and I'd like to suggest that her tone and temperament might have something to do with that, and that of her party.

The fact of the matter is -- and I think it's important to remind Ontarians -- that doctors were at their jobs yesterday and the day before and Friday, as they

are today. Of course, we've got some work to do, and we'll get down to that.

The first step, as I've clearly indicated in the media over the weekend and I indicated very directly to Dr Rapin on Saturday morning, is that he and I will

have a chance to have a dialogue about this -- I'm not sure that is established yet, but it's our full expectation that that will take place this week -- and it's a conversation that I look forward

to.

Mrs Witmer: That answer is not totally reassuring. I think part of the problem, Minister, has been your lack of willingness to listen while

you're doing consultations. In fact, you have usually acted before consulting. You failed to consult with health care professionals when you introduced Bill 8; you failed to consult with hospitals

when you cut their funding and forced them to cut services; you failed to consult with chiropractors, optometrists and physiotherapists when you delisted their services; you failed to consult with

Ontarians when you imposed your health tax; and now you are failing Ontarians by not delivering on your promise to improve access to health care and reduce wait lists.

I ask you one more time. This is a very important question, Minister. You can't continue to bully and be obstinate. Will you acknowledge that you should put

patients first? Will you commit today that you will continue discussions with the OMA and come back to the table as soon as possible?

Hon Mr Smitherman: For the honourable member to somehow pretend that the agreement that was on offer to doctors in Ontario didn't come as a

result of consultation is a little bit absurd, particularly because the reality is that, for nine months, two negotiating teams -- one from the province of Ontario and one from the Ontario Medical

Association -- worked together. The Ontario Medical Association negotiating team unanimously endorsed an agreement, and they took that to the board of the OMA, which put it out on offer to

Ontario's doctors.

Further, the honourable member asked me a question that I answered in the earliest question. She said, "Will you be in conversation with the Ontario Medical

Association?" I clearly indicated that yes, it was my full expectation that, through the course of this week, Dr Rapin and I are going to have an opportunity to sit down face to face, and that's

the opportunity I'm very much looking forward to.

Ontarians will know in that process that we continue to move forward with the agenda we have outlined: delivering doctors to local communities, addressing

chronic disease management and making real progress on wait times.

ADOPTION DISCLOSURE

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): My question is to the Premier. Premier, November is Adoption Awareness Month. I want to read an excerpt

from a letter you sent to the Coalition for Adoption Records, dated September 10, 2003. You wrote how you had voted in favour "of the proposed changes to adoption disclosure procedures" -- that's

my bill.

"I believe that, in the majority of cases, both adult adoptees and birth parents who have given their children up for adoption should be allowed access to

their records.

"In my view, it is a question of human rights."

Your letter also referred to how there has been an almost unanimous show of all-party support for changes to adoption disclosure procedures.

Premier, given all of that information, will you agree today to act on that support and open up adoption records? Call Bill 14 for third reading and a final

vote now.

Hon Dalton McGuinty (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): I can say that I have asked the Minister of Community and Social

Services to closely examine this bill so that we can consider our options on this. It is no secret that I have been supportive of the direction that the member opposite has taken in the past, and

we're going to find the best way to give expression to that support.

Ms Churley: The work that has been done by myself and members of the adoption community over the years -- we have come up with the best

system. There is no need to re-examine this. It has gone to committee. It is time to move. As you know, because of its outdated laws, Ontario continues to violate the UN Convention on the Rights of

the Child, which Canada ratified in 1996.

Current laws continue to put the lives of adoptees and their children at risk. Under this system, adoptees cannot get their family medical history until they

show symptoms, when it's usually too late. Thus, it is impossible for adoptees and their children to take preventive action. People are dying, as we speak, as a result of those outmoded laws. My

bill has just about been passed in the past.

Hon Dwight Duncan (Minister of Energy, Government House Leader): It's not about you, Marilyn.

Ms Churley: It's about the adoption community, I would say to the House leader who's screaming over there.

This bill has been up time and time again. Minister, it is just time to get on with it. It has been to committee. It has been brought back to the House under

previous governments. Will you please just go ahead, stop this nonsense, House leader, and pass the bill?

Hon Mr McGuinty: The member opposite has some real history connected with this issue. I do not for a moment doubt her sincerity and commitment

to this issue.

What I've asked our Minister of Community and Social Services to do as well is to take a look at the experience of that policy thrust in other jurisdictions,

to see what lessons we might draw from that experience, to see if there's any way that we might improve the bill that was introduced.

Here's the good news: We're going to move forward with this. What we're trying to do is move forward in a way that is thoughtful and responsible.

GROWTH PLANNING

Mr Tony C. Wong (Markham): My question is for the Minister of Public Infrastructure Renewal. On Thursday, October 28, the McGuinty government

announced the greenbelt protection plan. This proposed legislation would protect and preserve 1.8 million acres of land within the Golden Horseshoe. The need to protect our green space is immediate

if we are to leave an environment that cannot only maintain but also sustain healthy communities for our children.

Markham is one such community. Markham is one of the fastest-growing communities in the GTA, with its current population of 230,000 expected to grow to 348,000

within the next 20 years. The rate of growth for Markham exceeds the national and provincial averages. As a result, there is tremendous pressure on Markham and a number of communities for the

development of land. Will the greenbelt legislation consider, in tandem, protection of land and growth planning?

Hon David Caplan (Minister of Public Infrastructure Renewal): I want to thank the member for Markham for the question. I had the opportunity

to attend in the town of Markham back at the end of July to talk about our growth plan. We had over 300 residents of the town of Markham come and talk to us and say it was about time someone

finally got on with the job of ensuring that we protect our environment and that we have an infrastructure plan that is going to meet the needs of some of those growing communities; it's time we

had a provincial government that took a holistic approach. So absolutely, we are developing a plan.

In fact, we have proposed Bill 136, the Places to Grow Act, which, if adopted, would enable the province to develop and adopt these types of growth plans. If

the plan is endorsed by this House, we intend to partner with the municipal sector, with our partners in the development industry and with NGOs in the environmental area. I'm going to expand much

more in the supplementary, Speaker, but I can tell the member for Markham that this type of planning creates jobs, attracts investment and protects the environment, but most importantly, it

improves quality of life.

Mr Wong: Attempts to curb urban sprawl do not have to mean an end to new communities. Specifically, what efforts will your ministry provide to

assist communities such as Markham in achieving an environmental, social and economic balance so that business and growth will not be discouraged within our communities?

Hon Mr Caplan: An excellent supplementary. I've had a chance to meet with Don Cousens, the mayor of Markham. You will be very interested to

know that we have identified, in our draft discussion paper Places to Grow, in downtown Markham a brand new town centre for the city of Markham as one of the emerging areas within the greater

Golden Horseshoe plan. We plan to work to strengthen communities in which we live. We're going to develop real, positive change that will make Ontario strong, healthy and prosperous now and for

future generations. The growth act takes a regional approach to growth planning that considers existing local opportunities and challenges like the one I mentioned in the Markham downtown core.

It's a different kind of approach; it's holistic, and it's cross-ministry. But more importantly, where we're going to succeed, and where initiatives like the Toronto centre region failed under

previous governments, is that we're working with municipalities to make sure we realize the kinds of communities that will ensure that Ontarians have a quality of life that is second to none.

HEALTH CARE

Mr Tim Hudak (Erie-Lincoln): A question to the Minister of Health: There is a growing stench of incompetence surrounding your handling of the

Ministry of Health. By way of example, your health premium -- one day a premium, one day a tax -- doesn't flow directly to health care. You raised the tax and cut services to chiropractic,

physiotherapy and optometry. You're strangling hospitals for funding, and your main tactic for stakeholder relationships is a choke hold. Hospital expansion projects are lining up outside your door

all the way down the hallway. And this weekend, the hallmark of your reforms, the big, keynote piece of your re-structuring, went down in flames, probably the biggest bungled file in recent memory.

That fire didn't start yesterday; it started some time ago.

From your response to the member from Kitchener-Waterloo about when you're resuming negotiations, it sounds an awful lot like you took the weekend off. Tell

us, are you returning to the negotiations immediately, as I understand the OMA is requesting, to get a deal and move forward?

Hon George Smitherman (Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): I can assure the honourable member that I didn't take the weekend off. Speaking

about the word "incompetence," which was used in the honourable member's very, very language-laden introduction, I want to just read a comment. This is from Bill Murdoch: "I want to tell you why it

wasn't done: because we had an incapable, incompetent minister handling it in Minister Hudak. He shouldn't have been the minister. He was the minister, and that's unfortunate."

I've been very, very clear: The Ontario Medical Association president and I had a conversation on Saturday morning. I indicated to him then, in a fashion that

seemed very acceptable to him, that we would have an opportunity to sit down and meet this week. and that's what we're going to do.

The fact of the matter remains that doctors in Ontario are at their jobs today doing the hard work they do on behalf of patients, for which we're appreciative.

We do have some work to do, and we'll get doing that work. But it's only the honourable member who seeks to turn something into something that it's not.

Mr Hudak: Clearly, in question period, the minister's strategy is that a good offence makes a good defence. But you're not answering the basic

question that's been asked of you time and time again: When are you going to sit down, sir, and enter into negotiations with the OMA? I understand the OMA is now calling for an immediate resumption

of negotiations with the Ministry of Health.

You characterize it as all sunshine and smiles across the province of Ontario this morning. Sir, that is a most bizarre depiction. Doctors are continuing to

find it attractive to practise in other provinces and other states. They're making their training decisions based on current agreements and contracts. Underserviced area communities are feeling

greater and greater pressure. Doctors near retirement are finding no comfort in your words that you had a phone conversation in response on your weekend off.

Tell us, beginning tomorrow. Respond to the OMA that you'll resume negotiations immediately.

Hon Mr Smitherman: I'm pretty sure I wasn't involved in a weekend off when I toured the Ottawa Heart Institute on Saturday. I'm pretty sure I

wasn't involved in a weekend off when I participated in a panel that was a think-tank that was working hard on health issues Saturday afternoon. I'm pretty sure I wasn't involved in a weekend off

when I attended the fundraiser in Ottawa for St Vincent hospital to celebrate the successful end of their capital campaign. And I would say to the honourable member that I did cheer rather loudly

for the Argos last night. I make no apology for the work that I do in support of the great community of Toronto.

It seems to be the honourable member's agenda to try and create a crisis. We know that manufacturing those was the stock and trade of his party while in

government. We will not participate in that.

The challenges that we must confront in Ontario's health care system are great, and we have a very, very good plan, a comprehensive plan. Many elements of it

are already invested and others with more work yet to do. We're the first to acknowledge it. We're a hard-working government, and we will --

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Thank you. New question.

ACCESS TO LEGISLATIVE

BUILDING GROUNDS

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): A question to the Premier: You know that homeless people, their advocates and their friends protested

yesterday evening in the front yard, the courtyard, of city hall. It's no surprise that, after having slept the night there, they arrived here at Queen's Park today assembled with the intention of

pitching makeshift tents and spending the night so as to draw attention to the crisis and tragedy of homelessness. Half a dozen or so of those people have just been arrested, including Cathy Crowe

of the Toronto Disaster Relief Committee. They've been charged with trespassing by Toronto police and taken into custody, it appears, at the instructions of somebody, because the police didn't act

unilaterally.

Why are you, as the Premier, not making it clear that the environs of Queen's Park are open and available to those who will peacefully protest?

Hon Dwight Duncan (Minister of Energy, Government House Leader): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Any arrest on the precinct would not be the

responsibility of the government; it would be the responsibility of the Speaker. Therefore, it's impossible --

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): The point of order is well taken. I hope that the question you're addressing is pertinent to the Premier. As

the government House leader has indicated, the precinct of this place is governed by the Speaker. So I want to hear the final part of this question.

Mr Kormos: Premier, will you please stand and indicate that as Premier of this province, you expect citizens of Ontario to have access to the

front of this building and the grounds in front of it for peaceful, democratic protests --

The Speaker: Order. Again, that question should not be directed to the Premier.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. The member for Toronto-Danforth, do you have a point of order?

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Member from Toronto-Danforth, on your point of order?

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): I understand my House leader has a point of order, but I rise on a point of order and that is directly

to you, Mr Speaker: I'm asking you, the Speaker, to review the procedures of this place to make sure that the front of this building is open to the public. I know I can't ask you a direct question,

but we've just had the modern-day --

The Speaker: Order. Order.

Interjections.

The Speaker: I'd appreciate that if you have a concern about that, you could address it after question period. I will not accommodate that as

a point of order at this moment.

I'm going to have a new question. The question was out of order.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Could you start the clock for me, please? It's much easier --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. It's much easier if you allow me to preside over the House. Quite often, members are indicating how it should be

proceeding. I have just ruled on a point of order and I've just stated that that question is out of order. I'm going to take the next question of the rotation.

IMMIGRANTS' SKILLS

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Davenport): I have a question for the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities. Over the last 12 months we've seen a

flurry of activities emanating from your office, trying to help foreign-trained professionals gain access to trades and professions. In fact, over the last year, this government has done more in

terms of opening the door than any previous government in the history of Ontario.

Employers play a particularly important role in this equation to get jobs for foreign-trained professionals. While many employers have a strong track record of

recruiting highly qualified trained professionals, I've heard reports of several other employers who have failed to take advantage of this opportunity. Minister, what are you doing to engage

employers as part of our strategy to reduce barriers for internationally trained individuals?

Hon Mary Anne V. Chambers (Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities): I thank the member from Davenport for that question and his

acknowledgement of all of the work we're trying to do on the file for internationally trained individuals. There is no question that employers play a very important role in this file. There is no

question that we need employers to be progressive in their thinking, in providing internships, and in fact in providing permanent positions.

We hosted a breakfast at the board of trade. I'm pleased to say it was a sellout. Over 250 employers were there and are offering their support to our

government in this regard.

We have also increased the funding for a program called Career Bridge. It's up to $1.2 million in funding for internships, and I'm very pleased to report that

they have increased the number of internships by more than 50% over their target for this year.

Mr Ruprecht: It's good to hear that the time is over when foreign-trained professionals are driving taxis or cleaning offices or delivering

pizzas. I want to personally thank the minister for her personal role in this, because she has made a commitment to try to ensure that adequate jobs are for the having.

Minister, as you know, employers are part of our solution, as you just indicated. If an employer is interested in learning more about how they can take

advantage of the skills of highly qualified professionals, can you tell us more information about how they can access those employers? How are those employers going to open the door so that these

specifically trained individuals can actually get adequate and good jobs?

Hon Mrs Chambers: My ministry has actually improved the Web site that we have for internationally trained individuals. The

section is called

Opening Doors and it's part of the Web site, edu.gov.on.ca. I would encourage them to look at that Web site and to get in touch with us to see how they can participate in this very worthwhile

cause. Because this, in fact, is going to strengthen Ontario's economy for all Ontarians, not just for internationally trained individuals.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): That's the end of question period.

ACCESS TO LEGISLATIVE

BUILDING GROUNDS

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I seek unanimous consent for this House to entertain an emergency

resolution debate and closure on that resolution at 6 pm that would direct the Speaker to permit peaceful assembly on the lawns of the Legislative Assembly.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): I was about to ask for unanimous consent, but I heard a nay.

Mr Kormos: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: With all due respect -- and I'm going to be brief -- you know now that people who had peacefully

assembled on the front lawns of this precinct have just been arrested by metro police, clearly on the instruction of authority, and not unilaterally on the part of the police.

The Speaker: I thought you just addressed that and I had ruled on that. What's your point of order?

Mr Kormos: My point of order is that these people weren't committing any crime. They were peacefully assembled --

The Speaker: That is not a point of order.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I'm going to ask the member from Niagara Centre to come to order, or else I'll have to name him.

The member for Nepean-Carleton on a point of privilege.

Mr John R. Baird (Nepean-Carleton): On a point of privilege, Mr Speaker: This is a point of privilege arising from the proceedings. You just

mentioned a ruling that you gave, and I don't take issue with that ruling. As I recall, sir, that was a ruling with respect to a question asked in question period; it wasn't a ruling with respect

to the right of people to peacefully assemble on the grounds of the front lawn of the democratic institution we know as Queen's Park. It was about question period, and it was about whether a

question could be posed to the Premier.

I think the member for Niagara Centre brought up a serious and legitimate concern that followed your ruling that said that you, sir, in fact are the one who is

ultimately responsible. We can't ask you questions in question period. I believe this is somewhat unprecedented with respect to people not being allowed to peacefully assemble on the grounds of

Queen's Park.

The Speaker: I have ruled on that point. Will the member sit down, please. The member had asked for a point of order, which I have ruled out

of order. There is no point of order of asking about a question to be asked at that time.

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): Mr Speaker, on a point of order --

The Speaker: Order.

Ms Churley: I'm sorry. I thought you were through with that. I'll wait.

The Speaker: No, I'm not through.

Interjection.

The Speaker: I'm going to ask the member again -- I'm going to warn him one more time.

As I have said, I've ruled on that, and if there's a concern that you have, I don't think you have been denied any privilege whatsoever in this regard, and I

would not rule it as a point of privilege.

The member from Toronto Danforth on a point of order.

Ms Churley: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'm listening carefully to your rulings, I really am. I'm just trying to sort out the best way to

proceed with this.

Mr Speaker, I think you would agree with me that we're in a very serious situation here, and I would ask therefore for your direction in terms of your previous

rulings around how we, as legislators from all of the parties, deal with this very serious issue where we have a nurse, who crawled into a makeshift tent, non-violently, and is arrested, along with

others of the coalition, and dragged off to the police station.

There is something very, very wrong with this picture, and we need your direction then, Mr Speaker, as to how we as an assembly can properly deal with this. I

hope that you will therefore, since you've ruled it out of order and we can't ask you questions, direct us as to how we can deal with this immediately so we can take steps to, first of all, get the

barriers off the front of the lawn, where they shouldn't be -- I was noticing that today -- but secondly, to make sure that this doesn't happen again and there can be peaceful assemblies on our

front lawn.

The Speaker: On your point of order: I am available, immediately after this question period, to see me in my office in this regard. That's the

proper way to deal with it, not to raise it in the House here and ask it directly to a member or a minister whose responsibility it is not. So if you have a concern about that, please see me in my

office.

Mr Baird: Point of order, Mr Speaker: This is substantially serious for those of us in both opposition parties. I'd like to ask for a

15-minute recess of the House so that this matter can immediately be discussed.

The Speaker: Order. I thought I just stated the way in which we can resolve this. I've said that if you want to convene a meeting with me in

my office, I'm quite available to do so, and the matter may be able to be resolved in that light. It's not a matter for the House to resolve.

Mr Baird: Point of order, Mr Speaker: I have asked for unanimous consent for the House to adjourn for 15 minutes so we can get some

answers.

The Speaker: You ask for unanimous consent for the House to be recessed.

Do we have unanimous consent? I heard a no.

PETITIONS

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

Mr Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas there are approximately 23,000 children and youth in Simcoe county and York region who have special needs; and

"Whereas approximately 6,000 of these children have multiple special needs that require a range of core rehabilitation services; and

"Whereas children with multiple special needs (and their families) throughout the province access ongoing rehabilitation services that are critical for their

development at children's treatment centres in their area; and

"Whereas there is no children's treatment centre in Simcoe county or York region. For families that can travel, the closest services are in Toronto; and

"Whereas Simcoe county and York region is the only area left in the entire province that does not have access to children's treatment centre services in their

own area; and

"Whereas the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care provided funding to the Simcoe York District Health Council for implementation planning for an integrated

children's rehabilitation services system in December 2001; and

"Whereas the implementation plan was submitted to the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care in December 2002; and

"Whereas the proposal was reviewed and approved by the appropriate ministries in 2003, and in August the Ministry of Health advised the Simcoe county and York

region district health council that the funding had been committed and would be available shortly;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario to release the funding for the children's treatment centre in Simcoe county and York region so that

core rehabilitation services can be delivered to the children and youth in Simcoe county and York region."

I'm pleased to sign my name to that.

CHIROPRACTIC SERVICES

Mr Shafiq Qaadri (Etobicoke North): I have a petition here addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario regarding support for chiropractic

services in the Ontario health insurance plan.

"Whereas,

"Elimination of OHIP coverage will mean that many of the 1.2 million patients who use chiropractic will no longer be able to access the health care they

need;

"Those with reduced ability to pay -- including seniors, low-income families and the working poor -- will be forced to seek care in already overburdened family

physician offices and emergency departments;

"Elimination of OHIP coverage is expected to save $93 million in expenditures on chiropractic treatment at a cost to government of over $200 million in other

health care costs; and

"There was no consultation with the public on the decision to delist chiropractic services;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to reverse the decision announced in the May 18, 2004, provincial budget and maintain OHIP

coverage for chiropractic services, in the best interests of the public, patients, the health care system, government and the province."

I send this to you, Speaker, via page Eric.

GASOLINE PRICES

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): "Whereas gasoline prices have continued to increase at alarming rates in recent months; and

"Whereas the high and unstable gas prices across Ontario have caused confusion and unfair hardship to Ontario's drivers, while also impacting the Ontario

economy in key sectors, such as tourism and transportation;

"Therefore, we, the undersigned, respectfully petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the province consider an immediate gas price freeze for a temporary period until world oil prices moderate; and

"That the Dalton McGuinty provincial government petition their federal Liberal cousin to step up to the plate and lower gas prices by removing the GST on

gasoline products and fix the federal Competition Act to ensure that consumers are protected and that the market operates in a fair and transparent manner."

The member from Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford has a bill on this. I'm going to sign it.

HISTAMINE TREATMENT

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. There are many people in the gallery here today

to watch this. It reads as follows:

"Whereas the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario retains their ban on histamine treatment, and continues to prosecute doctors who administer the

treatment in contravention of Bill 2, amendment to the Medicine Act, 1991, of the province of Ontario, as well as

chapter C-6 of the Canada Health Act, we request the intervention of the

Legislative Assembly of Ontario;

"We, the undersigned residents of the province of Ontario, hereby petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to honour our rights to histamine treatment for

our allergies, asthma, chronic fatigue syndrome and related immune dysfunction diseases by enforcing the above-mentioned laws on the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario."

I am in agreement with this petition, and I will affix my signature thereto.

TUITION

Mr Phil McNeely (Ottawa-Orléans): I submit this petition on behalf of the minister from Ottawa West-Nepean, Minister Jim Watson. It's for

the students at Carleton University.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Ontario Liberal government took an historic step forward by funding a tuition fee freeze for two years; and

"Whereas a majority of Ontarians support increased public funding for colleges and universities, as well as reduced tuition fees; and

"Whereas increasing student debt through income-contingent loan repayment schemes or raising loan limits only increases the cost of post-secondary education

for students from modest means; and

"Whereas per student investment in Ontario still lags gravely behind the vast majority of jurisdictions in North America;

"Therefore, we, the undersigned, supporting the Canadian Federation of Students' call to increase funding for colleges and universities and reduce tuition fees

for all Ontario students, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to reduce tuition fees for all students in Ontario, increase public funding for post-secondary education to at least the

national average, and implement an upfront, needs-based grant system for Ontario full-time and part-time students."

I support this petition.

FREDERICK BANTING HOMESTEAD

Mr Jim Wilson (Simcoe-Grey): I have a petition to save the Banting homestead.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas Sir Frederick Banting was the man who discovered insulin and was Canada's first Nobel Prize recipient; and

"Whereas this great Canadian's original homestead, located in the town of New Tecumseth, is deteriorating and in danger of destruction because of the inaction

of the Ontario Historical Society; and

"Whereas the town of New Tecumseth has been unsuccessful in reaching an agreement with the Ontario Historical Society to use part of the land to educate the

public about the historical significance of the work of Sir Frederick Banting;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Minister of Culture endorse Simcoe-Grey MPP Jim Wilson's private member's bill, entitled the Frederick Banting Homestead Preservation Act, so that

the homestead is kept in good repair and preserved for generations to come."

I've received thousands of signatures from people in my riding and, of course, I endorse this petition.

CHIROPRACTIC SERVICES

Mr Jeff Leal (Peterborough): "To: Legislative Assembly of Ontario

"Re: support for chiropractic services in Ontario health insurance plan:

"Whereas,

"Elimination of OHIP coverage will mean that many of the 1.2 million patients who use chiropractic will no longer be able to access the health care they

need;

"Those with reduced ability to pay -- including seniors, low-income families and the working poor -- will be forced to seek care in already overburdened family

physician offices and emergency departments;

"Elimination of OHIP coverage is expected to save $93 million in expenditures on chiropractic treatment at a cost to government of over $200 million in other

health care costs; and

"There was no consultation with the public on the decision to delist chiropractic services;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to reverse the decision announced in the May 18, 2004, provincial budget and maintain OHIP

coverage for chiropractic services, in the best interests of the public, patients, the health care system and the government of Ontario."

I present Evan, the page, with three petitions.

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I'm very pleased to present a petition to the Legislature of Ontario which reads as

follows:

"Whereas there are approximately 23,000 children and youth in Simcoe county and York region who have special needs; and

"Whereas approximately 6,000 of these children have multiple special needs that require a range of core rehabilitation services; and

"Whereas children with multiple special needs (and their families) throughout the province access ongoing rehabilitation services that are critical for their

development at children's treatment centres in their own area; and

"Whereas there is no children's treatment centre in Simcoe county or York region. For families that can travel, the closest services are in Toronto; and

"Whereas Simcoe county and York region is the only area left in the entire province that does not have access to children's treatment centre services in their

own area; and

"Whereas, the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care provided funding to the Simcoe York District Health Council for implementation planning for an integrated

children's rehabilitation services system in December 2001; and

"Whereas the implementation plan was submitted to the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care in December 2002; and

"Whereas the proposal was reviewed and approved by the appropriate ministries in 2003, and in August the Ministry of Health advised the Simcoe county and York

region district health council that the funding had been committed and would be available shortly;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario to release the funding for the children's treatment centre in Simcoe county and York region so that

core rehabilitation services can be delivered to the children and youth in Simcoe county and York region."

I support the petition and sign it.

YORK CENTRAL HOSPITAL

Mr Mario G. Racco (Thornhill): On behalf of the residents of York region, I present today to the House a petition requesting that the

Legislative Assembly of Ontario support provincial funding for the expansion and renovation of York Central Hospital. The petition reads:

"Whereas each year thousands of York region residents rely on receiving timely access to high-quality health at York Central Hospital;

"

(2) The capacity of our hospital to meet the health care needs of local residents is falling behind;

"

(3) York Central Hospital has a plan. A plan that is supported by the local community and the Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care;

"

(4) The community has already donated $30 million to making the expansion a reality;

"We, the undersigned, submit 959 letters and postcards and this petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to approve this year the funding for the major

expansion and renovation at York Central Hospital."

I support this petition and sign my name to it.

ONTARIO DRUG BENEFIT PROGRAM

Mr Gerry Martiniuk (Cambridge): To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Liberal government has said in their election platform that they were committed to improving the Ontario drug benefit program for seniors and are

now considering delisting drugs and imposing user fees on seniors;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"To halt the consideration of imposing an income test, delisting drugs for coverage under the Ontario drug benefit plan or putting in place user fees for

seniors, and to maintain the present Ontario drug benefit plan for seniors to cover medication."

CHIROPRACTIC SERVICES

Mr Tim Peterson (Mississauga South): I have a petition from the people of Mississauga South.

"Re: support for chiropractic services in Ontario health insurance plan:

"Whereas,

"Elimination of OHIP coverage will mean that many of the 1.2 million patients who use chiropractic will no longer be able to access the health care they

need;

"Those with reduced ability to pay -- including seniors, low-income families and the working poor -- will be forced to seek care in already overburdened family

physician offices and emergency departments;

"Elimination of OHIP coverage is expected to save $93 million in expenditures on chiropractic treatment at a cost to government of over $200 million in other

health care costs; and

"There was no consultation with the public on the decision to delist chiropractic services;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to reverse the decision announced in the May 18, 2004, provincial budget and maintain OHIP

coverage for chiropractic services, in the best interests of the public, patients, the health care system, government and the province."

I submit this to page Evan Odell, from Mississauga South.

Mr Bill Murdoch (Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Re: support for chiropractic services in Ontario health insurance plan.

"Whereas,

"Elimination of OHIP coverage will mean that many of the 1.2 million patients who use chiropractic will no longer be able to access the health care they

need;

"Those with reduced ability to pay -- including seniors, low-income families and the working poor -- will be forced to seek care in already overburdened family

physician offices and emergency departments;

"Elimination of OHIP coverage is expected to save $93 million in expenditures on chiropractic treatment at a cost to government of over $200 million in other

health care costs; and

"There was no consultation with the public on the decision to delist chiropractic services;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to reverse the decision announced in the May 18, 2004, provincial budget and maintain OHIP

coverage for chiropractic services, in the best interests of the public, patients, the health care system, government and the province."

I have signed this, and it comes from all over my riding.

AJAX-PICKERING HOSPITAL

Mr Wayne Arthurs (Pickering-Ajax-Uxbridge): I have some 235 petitions this afternoon.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas at the time the Centenary Health Centre and Ajax-Pickering hospitals amalgamated under the umbrella of the Rouge Valley Health System, a commitment

was made by the Health Services Restructuring Commission that the communities of Whitby/Pickering/Ajax, according to the amalgamation agreement, would not lose a full-service hospital and would

maintain all existing services; and

"Whereas municipal governments in the region of Durham have provided financial support to the Rouge Valley Health System on the understanding that

Ajax-Pickering hospital would continue as a full-service hospital; and

"Whereas numerous service clubs and other organizations have also raised money in support of the expansion of the Ajax-Pickering hospital and services provided

therein such as the maternity unit on the understanding that the Ajax-Pickering hospital would continue as a full-service facility; and

"Whereas the Rouge Valley Health System has changed its strategic plan without consulting its key stakeholders, such as the residents who use the hospital, the

doctors, nurses and other professional staff that work within the system and the local governments and organizations that fund the hospital; and

"Whereas this has led to a decrease in the level of service provided by the maternity unit and the number of acute care beds;

"We, the undersigned concerned citizens of west Durham, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That a full-service hospital with all the existing services at the time of amalgamation be maintained at the Ajax-Pickering site and new services added as the

population continues to grow and age, as agreed to by the Ajax-Pickering General Hospital and Centenary Health Centre in the amalgamation agreement signed May 31, 1998."

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ELECTRICITY

RESTRUCTURING ACT, 2004 /

LOI DE 2004 SUR LA RESTRUCTURATION

DU SECTEUR DE L'ÉLECTRICITÉ

Resuming the debate adjourned on October 20, 2004, on the motion for second reading of Bill 100,

An Act to amend the Electricity Act, 1998 and the Ontario

Energy Board Act, 1998 and to make consequential amendments to other Acts / Projet de loi 100, Loi modifiant la Loi de 1998 sur l'électricité, la Loi de 1998 sur la Commission de

l'énergie de l'Ontario et apportant des modifications corrélatives à d'autres lois.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bruce Crozier): Pursuant to the order of the House dated November 17, 2004, I am now required to put the question.

Mr Duncan has moved second reading of Bill 100. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour, please say "aye."

All those opposed, please say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

Call in the members. This will be a 10-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1553 to 1603.

The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour, please stand one at a time to be recognized by the Clerk.

Ayes

Arthurs, Wayne

Bartolucci, Rick

Bentley, Christopher

Berardinetti, Lorenzo

Bountrogianni, Marie

Bradley, James J.

Broten, Laurel C.

Brownell, Jim

Cansfield, Donna H.

Caplan, David

Chambers, Mary Anne V.

Colle, Mike

Cordiano, Joseph

Delaney, Bob

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duncan, Dwight

Flynn, Kevin Daniel

Fonseca, Peter

Jeffrey, Linda

Kennedy, Gerard

Kular, Kuldip

Kwinter, Monte

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Leal, Jeff

Marsales, Judy

Matthews, Deborah

Mauro, Bill

McMeekin, Ted

McNeely, Phil

Milloy, John

Mitchell, Carol

Mossop, Jennifer F.

Orazietti, David

Peterson, Tim

Phillips, Gerry

Pupatello, Sandra

Qaadri, Shafiq

Ramal, Khalil

Ramsay, David

Rinaldi, Lou

Ruprecht, Tony

Sandals, Liz

Sergio, Mario

Smith, Monique

Sorbara, Gregory S.

Takhar, Harinder S.

Van Bommel, Maria

Wilkinson, John

Wong, Tony C.

Wynne, Kathleen O.

Zimmer, David

The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed, please stand one at a time to be recognized by the Clerk.

Nays

Baird, John R.

Bisson, Gilles

Chudleigh, Ted

Churley, Marilyn

Dunlop, Garfield

Flaherty, Jim

Hampton, Howard

Hudak, Tim

Jackson, Cameron

Kormos, Peter

Marchese, Rosario

Martiniuk, Gerry

Murdoch, Bill

O'Toole, John

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Prue, Michael

Scott, Laurie

Tascona, Joseph N.

Witmer, Elizabeth

The Clerk of the Assembly (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 52; the nays are 19.

The Deputy Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

Pursuant to the aforementioned order of the House, this bill is referred to the standing committee on finance and economic affairs.

STRONG COMMUNITIES

(PLANNING AMENDMENT) ACT, 2004 /

LOI DE 2004 SUR LE RENFORCEMENT

DES COLLECTIVITÉS (MODIFICATION

DE LA

LOI SUR L'AMÉNAGEMENT

DU TERRITOIRE)

Mr Duncan, on behalf of Mr Gerretson, moved third reading of the following bill:

Bill 26,

An Act to amend the Planning Act / Projet de loi 26, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'aménagement du territoire.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bruce Crozier): Mr Duncan.

Hon Dwight Duncan (Minister of Energy, Government House Leader): I'll be sharing my time with the member for Lambton-Kent-Middlesex and the

member for Guelph-Wellington.

Mrs Maria Van Bommel (Lambton-Kent-Middlesex): I also am pleased to share my time with the member for Guelph-Wellington. I'm happy to be able

to say a few words about Bill 26, the proposed Strong Communities (Planning Amendment) Act, 2004. This is a time for real, positive change in Ontario's communities, and our proposed legislation

sets the foundation for that change. The proposed Strong Communities (Planning Amendment) Act, 2004, aims to strengthen our municipalities and create healthy and prosperous communities by, first,

changing the Planning Act; revising the implementation standard for the provincial policy statement, which is our government's statement of its land use planning priorities; providing for the

better protection of matters of provincial interest; and reforming an important aspect of the appeal process to the Ontario Municipal Board.

As you are aware, the Planning Act establishes the rules for land use planning in the province and describes how land uses may be controlled and who may

control them. In December last year, this government took decisive action toward planning reform by introducing Bill 26, the proposed Strong Communities (Planning Amendment) Act, 2004. The bill

proposes to make changes to the Planning Act that will improve the land use planning system by making rules clearer and more consistent, ensuring the process is more accountable and transparent,

and giving the public more of a voice. We are going to put the public first by opening up the planning process, allowing more time for public scrutiny, boosting environmental protection and better

protecting the public interest.

The public should have a voice in how their communities grow and prosper. They have let us know their concerns about uncontrolled development and gridlock.

They have also told us there is a need for more protection of the environment and preservation of the province's water and food sources. They have expressed concern about the planning process, that

it is not keeping pace with the reality of a shifting environment as a result of population expansion, immigration and land development.

We are fully committed to ensuring that the proposed changes address those concerns. The proposed changes will help address immediate concerns about where we

live, the food we eat, the water we drink and the air we breathe. They will help address unwarranted gridlock and long-term effects on the environment, green land preservation and rural protection.

They will help build strong, safe, livable communities for the people who live and work in those areas today and those who will live and w