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May 20, 1980

31st Parliament, 4th Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Hansard Transcripts

L052 - Tue 20 May 1980 / Mar 20 mai 1980

ROYAL ASSENT

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

SERVICES TO MENTALLY RETARDED

FOREST FIRES

YORK-DURHAM SEWAGE SYSTEM

ORAL QUESTIONS

INTEREST PLATES

DIOXIN TESTING

IRON ORE PELLETS

BOISE CASCADE

TAX BENEFITS FOR NURSING HOME PATIENTS

THREE SCHOOLS

GORHAM-WARE PUBLIC SCHOOL

LAKE SIMCOE-COUCHICHING REPORT

INCO EMISSIONS

ASSISTANCE TO FARMERS

MINIMUM WAGE

ONTARIO HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION

RADISSON HOTEL CHAIN

CALEDON VILLAGE CONDOMINIUM DEVELOPMENT

LIMITATIONS LEGISLATION

IRON ORE PELLETS

RIDE DECISION

DISCRIMINATION IN HIRING

YORK-DURHAM SEWAGE SYSTEM

GASOLINE CONTAINERS

DON BOSCO SECONDARY SCHOOL

FRANCOPHONE ENUMERATION

REFORESTATION PROGRAM

PETITION

BELLWOODS PARK HOUSE

MOTION

WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION BOARD REPORT

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

LABOUR RELATIONS AMENDMENT ACT

COMMISSIONERS OF ESTATE BILLS

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE PAPER

ORDERS OF THE DAY

RETAIL SALES TAX AMENDMENT ACT (CONTINUED)

CORPORATIONS TAX AMENDMENT ACT

GASOLINE TAX AMENDMENT ACT

TOBACCO TAX AMENDMENT ACT

SUCCESSION DUTY ACT SUPPLEMENTARY PROVISIONS ACT

METROPOLITAN POLICE FORCE COMPLAINTS PROJECT ACT

The House met at 2 p.m.

Prayers.

The Honourable the Lieutenant Governor of Ontario entered the chamber of the Legislative Assembly and took her seat upon the throne.

ROYAL ASSENT

Hon. Mrs. McGibbon: Pray be seated.

Mr. Speaker: May it please Your Honour, the Legislative Assembly of the province has, at its present sittings thereof, passed certain bills to which, in the name of and on behalf of the said Legislative Assembly, I respectfully request Your Honour’s assent.

First Clerk Assistant: The following are the titles of the bills to which Your Honour’s assent is prayed:

Bill 45,

An Act respecting Tom Longboat and the City of Toronto;

Bill 56,

An Act to amend the Territorial Division Act;

Bill 202,

An Act respecting Occupiers’ Liability;

Bill 203,

An Act to protect against Trespass to Property;

Bill Pr1,

An Act to revive Basin-Jib Mines Limited;

Bill Pr2,

An Act to revive Christian Reformed Church of Wallaceburg;

Bill Pr5,

An Act to revive Milani Lathing Limited:

Bill Pr8,

An Act respecting the City of St. Catharines;

Bill Pr9,

An Act to revive John Madronich Limited;

Bill Pr10,

An Act respecting the Township of Cumberland and the Township of Gloucester;

Bill Pr11,

An Act respecting the City of Brantford;

Bill Pr15,

An Act to revive Golden Hope Mines Limited;

Bill Pr16;

An Act respecting Co-operative Health Services of Ontario;

Bill Pr20,

An Act to revive Fargo Disposal Company Limited;

Bill Pr22,

An Act respecting Crossroads Christian Communications Incorporated;

Bill Pr24,

An Act respecting the Borough of Scarborough.

Clerk of the House: In Her Majesty’s name, the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor doth assent to these bills.

The Honourable the Lieutenant Governor was pleased to retire from the chamber.

2:10 p.m.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

SERVICES TO MENTALLY RETARDED

Hon. Mr. Norton: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the ministers of Education, Health, and myself, I would like to advise the Legislature and the public of the specifics of a major joint initiative of our three ministries regarding developmental programs for mentally retarded people in homes for special care and nursing homes in Ontario. This is the culmination of recommendations made by an interministerial task force set up for that purpose last August and of discussions with the Ontario Association for the Mentally Retarded.

This initiative will affect 2,920 mentally retarded individuals, of whom 237 are under the age of 18, 160 are between the ages of 18 and 21, 1,442 are between the ages of 21 and 55, and 1,075 are over 55 years of age. The project is to be implemented over the next four years and is expected to cost approximately $29 million over that period. Funding for this fiscal year will be about $1.3 million. Estimated costs are approximately $5 million for the second year, approximately $9.5 million for the third year and approximately $13 million for the fourth year.

It is estimated that the annual cost of providing developmental training and related programs to these clients after the four-year implementation period will be approximately $13 million a year.

In order to determine the individual needs of the clients, four interministerial assessment teams are being established. Assessment teams will include a social worker, a psychologist, and a physician, with additional consultative resources as required. The goals of the assessment process are accuracy and objectivity, the end product being an individualized, goal-oriented plan of training and treatment. Areas to be evaluated include behaviour, self-care and basic life skills training; developmental and special education; pre-vocational and vocational training; physical and speech therapy; activation programs and recreational activities.

I am pleased to announce that the first steps have been taken to assess the children in these homes and that all of the individual assessments of the 400 children and young adults up to the age of 21 years will be completed by September 30 of this year. Training programs appropriate to their needs will be introduced as soon as possible after the completion of each assessment. In addition, by March 1981 assessments will be completed for 300 other adults.

As this initiative progresses, training programs for adult residents will be introduced as soon as possible, based on the recommendations from individual assessments. Program alternatives, such as social or recreational training activities, will be made available for those people who may not be able to benefit from developmental training.

Funding for this initiative will be in addition to the $30.6 million which my colleague the Minister of Health (Mr. Timbrell) has allocated this fiscal year to provide residential and health services to mentally retarded people in homes for special care and nursing homes. Operators of the homes will continue to provide these services with the supervision of the Ministry of Health. My ministry will assume responsibility for the administration and general management of this project, together with the implementation and funding of developmental training and social and recreational programs.

The Ministry of Education will continue to be responsible, through local boards of education, for the education of those children and young adults up to the age of 21 already receiving this program and for the education of others identified through assessment as being able to benefit. An interministerial steering committee has already been established to provide overall coordination and direction to the project management and to review and make recommendations on such issues as admissions criteria and procedures for the program, as well as the long-term program implications.

Community activity will be stimulated through the involvement of a provincial liaison group representing organizations such as the Ontario Nursing Homes Association and the Ontario Association for the Mentally Retarded. In addition, local advisory committees, representing service organizations and operators of nursing homes and homes for special care, will play a significant role in both the planning and implementation of programs.

Over the four-year period, approximately 800 new jobs will be created outside the provincial government, producing a significant economic impact. These jobs will be a direct result of the increased demand for programs and services and will enable the mentally retarded people in homes and nursing homes to benefit from the programs thus made available to them. This commitment demonstrates the sincere and continuing desire on the part of the Ontario government to ensure that all mentally retarded citizens in this province are afforded the opportunity to develop to their full potential and live in an environment appropriate to their needs.

FOREST FIRES

Hon. Mr. Auld: Mr. Speaker, I would like to bring members of the House up to date on the forest fire situation in the province. The northwestern region of Ontario continues to be in an extremely hazardous state, even though the number and the spread of fires have diminished since the serious outbreak two weeks ago which threatened the communities of Sioux Narrows, Minaki and Camp Robinson.

Throughout the northwestern region ground moisture is in a drought stage and the potential for forest fires is high to extreme. Because there has been little rain since the first of April these extreme drought conditions are prevailing. Consequently last Friday the ministry declared that the northwestern region will be a restricted fire zone until at least the last day of this month. This means, as the Forest Fire Prevention Act states: “No person shall start a fire outdoors for the purpose of cooking or obtaining warmth except in a portable stove or a charcoal installation.” That is, no open fires will be allowed.

The fire risk situation is extremely serious and can be expected to escalate over the rest of the month. The long holiday weekend just past was the beginning of the cottage season with many cottagers wanting to burn debris. The opening of the pickerel season will mean people wanting to build fires for shore lunches and there will be a considerable increase of travel in the dry bush during this time by campers, hikers and tourists.

The declaration of a restricted fire zone will minimize the risk of man-caused fires and will make the public aware of the severe fire danger in that region. Taking this step also allows my ministry’s firefighting force to regroup and gear up for the anticipated lire load over the balance of the 1980 fire season.

On Friday afternoon my ministry advised the news media of the restricted fire zone in the northwest so that people using the woods in that region would be made aware of the hazardous conditions and the ban on open fires.

YORK-DURHAM SEWAGE SYSTEM

Hon. Mr. Parrott: Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the Attorney General (Mr. McMurtry) has tabled an order in council under the Expropriations Act. This order will allow expropriation of property for rights of way within the town of Vaughan in the regional municipality of York. This land is needed for the construction of the North Maple collector sewer portion of the York-Durham sewage system. The Maple collector sewer has already been constructed from Steeles Avenue to a point about 750 metres north of Langstaff Road in Vaughan.

In order to provide service for the community of Maple and the Family Leisure Centre theme park, this sewer must be extended about 2,700 metres northward.

In order to have the project completed and operational on time, it is necessary that construction begin this summer. A delay could mean further lost time as a result of weather and other contingencies and could result in cost increases of as much as 25 per cent.

Therefore, it was felt necessary to expropriate the needed property quickly without permitting the usual inquiry procedure which could lead to delays in construction. Although property owners will not have the benefit of the inquiry procedure, this expropriation does not affect their right to have the compensation payable by the expropriating authority. This is determined by the Land Compensation Board in the event that a satisfactory price cannot be negotiated.

These proceedings will involve a total of 11 properties. However, this will not affect the agreements of purchase and sale already negotiated between eight of the property owners and the crown.

ORAL QUESTIONS

INTEREST PLATES

In October, when we asked him the same question, the Premier had this to say: “I don’t pretend to be an expert in terms of whether this country can dissociate itself from the lending rate in the United States. I confess to the Leader of the Opposition that I don’t have this degree of expertise.”

Assuming that the Premier has exactly the same degree of expertise now to which he confessed a few months ago, may I ask what it is that makes him feel it is now politically safe and appropriate to say that we should not be following the monetary policy of the United States when, while his friend Mr. Clark was the Prime Minister, he did not have the expertise and did not feel confident enough to make the same statement?

2:20 p.m.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is reverting to true form again. I only make one observation. I like to think that I learn a little bit every day, and the fact that I know a little more than I did last October is, I hope, a sign of some accomplishment. If the Leader of the Opposition is saying to the people of this province that he does not learn a little bit every day, I would accept that and I would tend to agree with him.

I think it is fair to state that what I was saying on Thursday did not reflect my concern only about interest policy; it reflected my concern about monetary policy generally and that I do not think this country need be lock-step -- or whatever term one may wish to use -- with the United States of America.

Mr. S. Smith: It is of interest that the term “lockstep” was used by the Premier, but it is exactly the same term we used on October 29. The Treasurer (Mr. F. S. Miller) objected to it and said it was not lockstep when Mr. Clark was in office, because there was a quarter point difference in the rates. Considering that the difference in the rates now is 2.25 points, why does the Premier now feel he can use the term “lockstep” to define a policy when Mr. Trudeau is in office, when he could not use it when Mr. Clark was in office?

On a more serious note, does the Premier not recognize that this feeling free to take shots at the federal government, when it happens to be of a different political stripe, is one of the serious problems throughout this country and one of the reasons for the difficulties we are having in making this country governable generally?

I happen to get reports of those things he says. Does he want me to tell him what he said in Port Credit the other day, and how he was totally unfair to the public service of this province? Does he want me to read that statement to him? Does he want me to lecture him on just how this sort of thing reacts on the public service of this province? It is something he would not dare say in this House.

Mr. Speaker, what was the question?

I cannot understand it. He told the world some months ago he would not do it again. He is now reverting to it. God bless.

Mr. Cassidy: Mr. Speaker, since the question pertains to interest rates, may we take it that the government continues to disagree with the Liberal Party of Canada saying that there is no problem of interest rates for home owners? Will the Premier say now, five weeks since the provincial budget was presented, when the government expects to table the paper on interest rates that was promised within a month after the budget?

Mr. Roy: Don’t worry. We’ll support you anyway.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I would say to the sometime member for Ottawa East --

Mr. Speaker: You really don’t have to.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I don’t have to, no. It’s obvious even to you, Mr. Speaker, I assume.

I think the Treasurer answered that question a few days ago and made it quite clear that it was hoped the documentation of the material we were preparing would be ready within about 10 days. I think that was about five or six days ago. The Treasurer is away until, I believe, tomorrow or Thursday. I am hopeful we will have this information for discussion some time in the next few days -- I cannot guarantee it this week, but just as soon as it is ready.

Mr. Sargent: Mr. Speaker, I have a question with regard to interest rates and the Premier’s inconsistencies along the line. In view of the fact that the Minister of Energy (Mr. Welch) has at long last told me that they advanced $187 million, interest-free, to Denison Mines Limited and to Preston Mines Limited, and there is still about $150 million to go, does the Premier plan to continue the interest-free policy?

When the small businessman is paying 15, 16 or 17 per cent for money, why should this multimillion-dollar corporation, with a guaranteed profit of $2.5 billion on top of that guaranteed by the province, get this money interest-free? Is the Premier going to continue that policy?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, when the honourable member, attired as he is now, appeared in the very excellent eating facility downstairs, I told him then he should be forewarned that when he stood up to ask me a question I would advise him that Woodbine is functioning this afternoon and what he is wearing is very appropriate there.

I shall try to explain it to the honourable member again. Some of his colleagues sat through the whole discussion on those contracts during the select committee. I read what was said very carefully. My recollection is, and I could be wrong in this, that the contract is between Ontario Hydro, not the government of Ontario, and those two corporations. My recollection is, once again, that these were prepayments, which is not unusual in certain commercial contracts. Ontario Hydro has very excellent legal advice in terms of the preparation and finalization of those contracts, and they were all part of the process that was thoroughly discussed by the select committee at that time.

Mr. S. Smith: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of the Environment.

Hon. Mr. Davis: The honourable member might read the rest of my speech.

Mr. S. Smith: The Premier has invited me to read the rest of his speech. I can assure him I did, and a good many questions arise.

DIOXIN TESTING

Mr. S. Smith: In fairness, since the Premier brought up horse racing, I think I might ask a question of the Minister of the Environment who has been known to participate in such pursuits on occasion.

The minister is very familiar with the problems that have come to our attention in the Love Canal, and he is very familiar with the fact that, not far from there, there are tens of thousands of tons of chemicals, dumped by the Hooker Chemical Corporation in the 1950s, 1960s and early 1970s.

Given the fear that these chemicals might he trickling into Bloody Run Creek and eventually into Lake Ontario, can the minister tell us whether he has finally got around to building the laboratory facilities which will allow Ontario to measure dioxin in water, something he has had four years to accomplish since it was first promised? Is that lab facility now in operation, and if not, why not?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: Mr. Speaker, first of all, let me tell the member that the lab facilities for measuring dioxin are extremely few in number. I am not certain whether we are in full operation or not. I know we have progressed a long way towards completion. I would be glad to advise tomorrow whether we are fully operational.

Mr. S. Smith: Since it would appear that the ministry is still waiting for certain equipment from the United States and since it would appear that it will be August at the earliest before this kind of testing can be done, can the minister explain why assurance was given to the people of Ontario as long ago as 1976 that this capacity would be one of the high priorities of the ministry?

Why has it taken virtually a full four years to get around to the point where we hope to be able to measure dioxin in our water, when dioxin is one of the deadliest chemicals known to mankind and there is enough in the Hooker dump to kill everybody on earth? Why has it taken four years to get around to building that facility?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: Mr. Speaker, I think I can tell you that, when we do have this on stream, it will be the first in Canada. A lab facility to measure dioxin must be prepared extremely carefully. Dioxin is not a substance with which one would want to have any carelessness or any possibility of harm to the employees. It has taken longer than I had expected, but I think it is reasonable to establish the safest, soundest methods, not only for the people of Ontario, but also for the employees of a ministry who must work in this very hazardous condition.

2:30 p.m.

Mr. Kerrio: Mr. Speaker, how is the Minister of the Environment assuring the people in the Niagara River area that there is the kind of monitoring going on that is going to protect their health and well being?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: Mr. Speaker, we have said three things. First of all, we said we would take many samples of those substances that we ourselves were able to monitor completely, and we have done so. Second, we have suggested to the federal government that we will assist it in any way that it wishes. Third, any testing for dioxin will be done in other labs.

We do not have facilities for every substance, nor does any other lab that I know of have facilities for every substance. So there is a need to work with other labs, as they need to work with us.

When I discuss this problem with ministers of the western provinces, they see our labs so far advanced of any they have that they are extremely impressed. Indeed, that fine province of Alberta established its first lab only a few months ago. We are well in advance of any other jurisdiction in Canada.

IRON ORE PELLETS

Mr. Cassidy: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Premier about the Nanticoke development of Stelco Inc.

Is the Premier aware of the millions of dollars that have been spent in the Nanticoke area on the Townsend site and other developments that were needed for the industrial facilities there? Is he also aware of the fact that Stelco’s new mill will be written off in only two and a half years, thanks to provincial and federal tax legislation?

In view of the millions of dollars that the taxpayers are contributing to the new Stelco mill at Nanticoke, is the Premier and the government prepared to insist that Stelco source its iron ore from Ontario sources to help create jobs in northern Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I do not quite follow the logic of the first part of the question. If the real question is, laying aside all the rhetoric and the

preamble, which could be totally irrelevant, are we prepared to insist that Stelco use totally Ontario or Canadian ore, the answer to that is no. We are quite prepared, as we have done with all the steel companies, to interest them and persuade them to use whatever appropriate domestic ore can be used.

I think you will find, Mr. Speaker, that it is not as simple as saying to use Ontario ore. The fact is there are certain types of ore, and certain processes require different types of ore. I think it is fair to say Stelco has been one of the most efficient steel producers in North America. They have provided thousands of jobs over the years for the people of this province. They have been a tremendous economic asset.

If the leader of the New Democratic Party wants to grind some axe with them, that’s fine. But I think it is fair to say that we cannot force a company to use a product that may not work in that particular process. We cannot force a company to do something that will not be economic or that will make them less competitive. Surely the member has an interest in the jobs they are going to provide.

We are certainly interested in the people who would be involved in the provision of ore for that particular industry. I will be having the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Auld) deal -- he does not know it yet, because I just saw him this afternoon -- in some detail with this question as it relates to the question raised by the member for Sudbury East (Mr. Martel).

As I recall the Inco problem, it relates to the quality of the ore. We have talked to the industry and they say this is a part of the problem. There will be a more comprehensive answer to the honourable member’s question on Thursday. But I cannot undertake to the leader of the New Democratic Party that we are going to insist that a company do something that may not make sense from the standpoint of producing a product at a competitive price.

Mr. Cassidy: I was with my colleague at Atikokan last week and had the chance to relive with miners and people there the devastation of the community resulting from the closing of the two iron ore mines in that particular community. Why is it that over the last two years we have seen five iron ore facilities, including the one at Inco, and four mines shut down across this province and nothing done to help satisfy the increased demand for nine million tons more iron ore per annum that the steel companies are going to need in the 1980s?

Why has the government failed to use the leverage it does have, such as the contributions to Stelco, in order to get more sourcing from Ontario at a time when the Ontario steel companies have now bought in to the point where they can get 45 per cent of their supplies from the United States? Why do we keep on closing mines when we are going to need new iron ore sources in the 1980s?

Hon. Mr. Davis: I know the Leader of the Opposition will not like what I am going to say next. I don’t purport to be an expert on this subject either but I learn a little bit as I deal with these situations. I can only recall some personal involvement in some detail with the National Steel mine. Two of the companies in this province made a very genuine effort to see whether the product from that mine could not he used in their process. I think it is fair to state that most reasonable people, after the experiment was concluded, came to the same judgement.

The member for Sudbury East (Mr. Martel) shakes his head, but I have to tell him that the companies made that effort to accommodate a provincial priority. We are quite prepared to do this on any occasion where we think it makes sense.

Mr. G. I. Miller: Mr. Speaker, when the Premier speaks to the Minister of Natural Resources, will he ask him to indicate to this House how much iron ore is being utilized from Canadian sources versus American sources? Then we could perhaps put a little pressure on the companies to use as much Canadian and Ontario iron ore as possible.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, the steel companies of this province are quite aware of the desire on the part of this government to use as much indigenous resource as is possible. I would think the member for Haldimand-Norfolk would also be concerned that we not have a policy that would make Stelco noncompetitive, not able to compete in the marketplace. This would be prejudicial to the employment of the people in that organization.

Mr. Foulds: Mr. Speaker, can the Premier tell us what concrete steps his government took to ensure that the processes developed at Nanticoke were processes that could use the ores that are available within Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the processes are. I know generally the product line that Stelco plans on producing there. I understand it is coming on stream fairly shortly. This government did not dictate to Stelco just what technology would be used.

BOISE CASCADE

Mr. Cassidy: Mr. Speaker, I have a new question which I will direct to the Minister of Industry and Tourism. Will the minister confirm or deny that the government is considering an Employment Development Fund grant to Boise Cascade for its operations in northwestern Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Grossman: Mr. Speaker, Boise Cascade has been in to see us, pursuant to our pulp and paper program. Simply, they asked if an application would be considered and forwarded certain information to the officials operating the board.

Mr. Cassidy: Can the minister give the House a categorical assurance that the government will have no consideration of a grant to Boise Cascade until there has been settlement reached in the company’s labour dispute with Local 2693 of the Lumber and Sawmill Workers Union in northwestern Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Grossman: I can only tell the member that at the present time it is in the hands of our officials to do the customary analysis in this matter. If the analysis should be complete, it would then be referred to the board, and the other two members of the board and myself would have to consider all the factors at that time.

Mr. Cassidy: Does the minister not agree that it is a responsibility of the government to remain neutral in the case of a labour dispute? In that circumstance, does he not agree that the government of Ontario, and the taxpayers of Ontario, should stay out of that situation with any EDF grant until there has been a resolution and a settlement in the case of the strike of the Lumber and Sawmill Workers Union instituted with Boise Cascade?

Hon. Mr. Grossman: I will certainly present that point of view to my two colleagues, one of whom is sitting immediately to my right, and we will discuss it at the time it reaches the board level.

Mr. Foulds: Mr. Speaker, would the minister assure us that he consults with his colleague the Minister of Labour (Mr. Elgie) and follow up on his suggestion that the ministry must maintain neutrality in terms of labour disputes in that regard? Would he not agree that putting public funds into it does not maintain the government’s neutrality?

Hon. Mr. Grossman: Mr. Speaker, we regularly consult with our colleague, the Minister of Labour. We will do so in this matter. In fact he and I already discussed this in an informal way.

2:40 p.m.

TAX BENEFITS FOR NURSING HOME PATIENTS

Mr. Breaugh: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Community and Social Services regarding a petition he has received from the residents of Bestview Lodges Nursing Homes in Oshawa. Would the minister help to put together, with his colleagues the Treasurer (Mr. F. S. Miller) and the Minister of Health (Mr. Timbrell), a committee to review the inequities that are present in the tax benefit schemes for senior citizens so that seniors who are in nursing homes might have the same rights to these tax benefits as those seniors who are fortunate enough to remain in their own homes or apartments?

Hon. Mr. Norton: Mr. Speaker, I have not yet received the petition to which the honourable member refers. I will check with my staff and see whether it has arrived at my office.

Mr. Breaugh: Is the minister in agreement with the statement by the Treasurer that senior citizens who are resident in nursing homes have, if I can use his words, no obligations in society?

Hon. Mr. Norton: I didn’t hear the Treasurer make any such remarks. I am not saying he didn’t make them. I would not comment upon his remarks, but I would say it is clear to anyone who looks at the situation that those persons who are having all of their shelter, food and accommodation needs met in a nursing home or a home for the aged do have less open-ended demands upon them than those who are residing in the community, and that I would agree with.

THREE SCHOOLS

Mr. Peterson: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Culture and Recreation. The minister is no doubt aware of the plight of Three Schools here in Toronto. Why would he stand by without assisting this world-famous school for a trifling amount of money considering the number of jobs and the number of students at stake? Why would the minister not jump in and assist them to keep that world-famous school alive?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: Mr. Speaker, I would disagree with the assessment that we are standing idly by while this school is sinking. I would like to point out that over the past seven years we have increased our provincial grant to Three Schools by the princely sum of 17 per cent per year. That is a higher increase, I suppose, than any other institution that is getting provincial funding from us has received.

We are still very much in a state of negotiation with them at the present time, but certainly their problems do not stem entirely -- perhaps only in a very peripheral way -- from the kind of provincial support they are getting. Three Schools is in a very highly competitive field. They are competing with the University of Toronto art school, with York University, with the community colleges’ arts courses, with other alternative art schools, with the Ontario College of Art and so on.

It is a highly competitive field and there is a feeling that perhaps they have not been quite as competitive, have not kept up with their world as much as some of the others have. But in spite of all that, I can assure the member opposite that we will continue to negotiate and see what we can do to keep this school afloat.

Mr.

Peterson: In view of a United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization study which called this a unique facility in the world, in view of a Peat Marwick study funded by the Ministry of Culture and Recreation in 1978 which said that the school urgently needed a substantial injection of working capital and it could find no areas where cost could be significantly reduced, and in view of the relatively trifling amount of money, something like $80,000, to keep this facility alive this year before the potential closedown date of June 6, surely the minister has an obligation to move very quickly and end the suspense for these marvellous people who are contributing, away below market rates, to the art scene of this province, this country and this city?

Surely he has that obligation, and surely he owes it to them and to us to make an announcement very quickly?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: They are now being budgeted $105,000 from us. We are being told that to keep them alive they need $200,000. I would not call that kind of increase a trifling amount. That, in my language, is almost double what they are getting.

As far as the UNESCO report is concerned, in the world of art one finds very quickly that de gustibus non disputandum est. There is art and there is art and there is personal taste. A lot of people would not agree all that much with the UNESCO report. There are others around here who would say there are other art schools doing a better job. As far as I am concerned, it is still an open question. We are ready to listen and we will try to do our very best to help this school survive.

GORHAM-WARE PUBLIC SCHOOL

Mr. Foulds: Mr. Speaker, I have a new question, for the Minister of Education. Can the minister explain why the capital expenditure budget for northwestern Ontario has not received final approval? In particular, can she explain why the Lakehead Board of Education has not received approval for construction of additional classrooms at the Gorham-Ware school at Lappe -- a school that has three permanent classrooms and six portables and has been number one on the Lakehead board’s priority list for the last three years?

Hon. Miss Stephenson: Yes, Mr. Speaker, because the capital budget for school construction throughout the province has not received approval as yet.

Mr. Foulds: Can the minister tell us when not only the province but also the people of Gorham-Ware can expect an answer? Can she not understand the urgency of the situation when, during the winter, in a small school like that, there are lineups of children at lunch hour from the portables to go to the washroom and the lineups are not completed by the time the lunch hour is over? Can the minister explain and justify to those people in a growth area why they should not have a school that has some decent facility for their children?

Hon. Miss Stephenson: The honourable member knows that it has been the policy to attempt to provide as equitably as possible the kind of accommodation that students need within the school system. I do recognize the urgency and hope that within the next week or so we will be able to inform the various boards of the allocations available to them.

LAKE SIMCOE-COUCHICHING REPORT

Mr. Gaunt: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of the Environment. Since it now appears as though progress is being made in regard to the Lake Simcoe-Couchiching cleanup -- and I particularly applaud the reduction in the phosphorus loading to 87 tons per year -- can the minister assure the House that meetings are planned in the immediate future -- I underline “immediate future” -- to work out the appropriate cost-sharing between the province and the cities of Barrie and Orillia so that we can get on with the important job of saving Lake Simcoe?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: Mr. Speaker, very simply yes. I can assure the honourable member of that as I did the member for Simcoe Centre (Mr. G. Taylor) two or three days ago. We have those meetings confirmed. Certainly we want to spend some time with those municipalities explaining the whole program.

Mr. Gaunt: Since this matter has been going on for some 10 years, could the minister indicate whether those meetings will be held within the next month?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: Yes.

INCO EMISSIONS

Ms. Bryden: Mr. Speaker, I also have a question for the Minister of the Environment. Since we now know that emissions from Inco Limited seriously affect the environment of the residents of southern Ontario as well as the Sudbury basin, will the minister also hold public meetings on the proposed Inco control order in the Muskoka cottage country and in Toronto?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: No, Mr. Speaker, I do not think that will be possible. Quite frankly, we are very anxious to get on with this control order. If we had all these meetings as proposed, I am afraid we would spend all our efforts in meeting and not doing. Therefore, I hope that interested people will go on June 4 or 5 -- whatever time is necessary -- to Sudbury. It seems like a very reasonable approach to have these meetings in the communities that are affected by whatever decision is made.

2:50 p.m.

Ms. Bryden: Since according to the federal Minister of the Environment 40 per cent of the sulphur deposition in the Muskokas come from Inco, surely a very large group of people are affected, and to expect them to travel to Sudbury in order to discuss the preservation of their environment seems to me unreasonable when one is trying to open up the process to the public.

Hon. Mr. Parrott: I note that our estimates are starting next week, and perhaps the member would consider the standing committee as a forum for her to put forward some views and to ask some questions. Indeed, I would welcome an opportunity to discuss that particular study and reference to it by the Honourable John Robarts. I think it would be very helpful to have that discussion in a committee where there can be not only the give and take of discussion but also the expert witnesses who, I think, are necessary to fully discuss that particular study and the ramifications it has upon the district of Muskoka.

ASSISTANCE TO FARMERS

Mr. G. I. Miller: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food regarding the farmer assistance program announced on May 8. I wonder if the minister is intending to include the tobacco farmers of Ontario in the relief program announced at that particular time.

Hon. Mr. Henderson: Mr. Speaker, that announcement was quite clear; it referred to food production.

Mr. G. I. Miller: Does the minister not consider that the financial hardship being faced by the tobacco farmers is a severe problem? On what basis does he exclude them?

Hon. Mr. Henderson: The purpose of the subsidy on interest was to encourage the farmers to plant this year’s crop. Their costs were going up so high that we were getting word back from the individual farmers that they were just going to cancel out this year. That was the background; that was the reason behind our subsidization of the loans. It was to encourage the planting of this year’s crop. It was for the consumers of Ontario.

Mr. Riddell: Mr. Speaker, in connection with the Ontario Farm Interest Assistance Program alluded to by my colleague from Haldimand-Norfolk, have program criteria been developed by his ministry? If so, what are the criteria? Has he arrived at a legitimate means test in order to reduce the number of recipients to the most needy? What does he estimate the total cost of the program to be?

Hon. Mr. Henderson: Mr. Speaker, a great amount of work has gone into establishment of the criteria. I do have some facts that I will be taking to my cabinet colleagues tomorrow for their consideration. I would hope within the next week we would be making public the complete criteria.

Mr. Riddell: Will the minister make a statement in the House?

Hon. Mr. Henderson: I can if that is the member’s wish.

MINIMUM WAGE

Mr. Samis: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Labour. Could the minister explain to the House why the men and women of this province, the wealthiest in Canada, have to work at a minimum wage lower than that being offered by the poorest province in Canada, Newfoundland, which will be increasing its minimum wage to $3.15 in July and to $3.45 next spring?

Hon. Mr. Elgie: Mr. Speaker, the issue of the minimum wage is one we are preparing our recommendations about, and I expect to have them before cabinet shortly.

Mr. Samis: In view of the fact that the people on welfare and family benefits assistance received the 10 per cent increase, and in view of the fact the cost of living has gone up by approximately 12 per cent to 15 per cent in that time period, can the minister assure the House that the increase will be commensurate with the increase in the cost of living since January 1, 1979?

Hon. Mr. Elgie: I am well aware of the facts and figures that the member has recited. I can tell him there will be a recommendation coming forward, the nature of which will be known once it has been received and approved.

ONTARIO HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION

Hon. Mr. Elgie: Mr. Speaker, the week before last in my absence, the leader of the New Democratic Party asked the Premier (Mr. Davis) why the Ontario Human Rights Commission had made no public statement concerning the controversy over the CTV program entitled Campus Giveaway, a program which caused understandable offence to the Chinese community of this province and which resulted in a public apology by the network.

The inference that the human rights commission stood passively aside during this unfortunate incident is entirely incorrect and unwarranted. If the leader of the New Democratic Party had read the joint statement issued on March 16, 1980, by the Ad Hoc Committee of the Council of Chinese Canadians in Ontario and CTV, he would have noted that both the Chinese community and the network paid tribute to the human rights commission for its assistance in bringing about a resolution of this regrettable issue.

I will not take the time of the House to give a detailed description of the commission’s important mediating role, but I can say that Dr. Ubale and Rabbi Plaut were both actively and constructively involved throughout and, as I have said, their contribution to the eventual settlement has been publicly acknowledged by the parties concerned.

I should also say that the negotiations leading to the eventual apology by the network were difficult, and the need to avoid gratuitous public comment during this sensitive period was wisely recognized and honoured by the representatives of the human rights commission. I hope members will agree with me that quiet diplomacy leading to success is sometimes preferable to public grandstanding. In this instance, the commission members involved have followed the correct and responsible route, and I believe that we owe a debt of gratitude to them.

RADISSON HOTEL CHAIN

Mr. Breithaupt: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Industry and Tourism with respect to the Radisson Hotel Corporation’s management agreement concerning Minaki Lodge.

Does the minister recall the comments made at the time of the announcement, I believe by the member for Essex North (Mr. Ruston), concerning the bankruptcy circumstance and the difficulties of the Radisson Hotel in Detroit? Will the minister advise us whether he intends to make a full statement in the House concerning his confidence in programs, or otherwise, in this new arrangement to ensure that it is thoroughly carried out at, of course, the expense that has now been committed?

Hon. Mr. Grossman: Yes. The Radisson Hotel chain has our complete confidence. Radisson Hotels are in a very real sense no different from any other major hotel chain that goes into very many operations. There is hardly a hotel chain which any member of this House could mention that has not had an experience which has caused a notice of termination to have been served on the company, asking them to withdraw from a management arrangement. That is common in the hotel industry and should not in any way be meant to impugn the entire operation. That is as applicable to Radisson as it is to any other major hotel chain.

I might add that I have caused some inquiries to be made subsequent to that particular instance being drawn to my attention, and it appears that the particular hotel in question has been the subject matter of a great deal of difficulty for a long period of time. A previous hotel chain was likewise asked to stop operating it because of their inability to run the premises, and that has been acknowledged. The hotel is in a very difficult area and has a history of its own problems, notwithstanding the management. There is no question but that Radisson was unable to turn this particular hotel around.

On the other hand, one of the reasons we selected Radisson instead of the two or three other better-known chains in an area such as Toronto, for example, was their unique experience, not in downtown urban metropolises, but rather in these types of resorts. I would refer the member specifically to their experience at the Radisson Arrowwood, to name one of their lodges, and they have had extraordinary success in that location.

I have with me a note of some of the references that we got which I would be pleased to read to the House. Suffice it to say it is clear that Radisson is among the leaders in this particular type of wilderness resort. We retain the utmost confidence in them. We, of course, are checking into the one instance of which we are aware they have had any difficulty. Again, I emphasize to members of the House that it is not unusual in this business for a hotel chain to run into some difficulty in an operation when they run 23 or 24.

Mr. Breithaupt: While I recognize that difficulty might occur in one particular circumstance and that the chain might well be able to do many other tasks well, how is it, in the light of the minister’s comment that this is a well-known and continuing problem, that it would appear at least from the quotation in this morning’s press that his staff members did not know about it and did not advise him about this particular?

Hon. Mr. Grossman: I am sorry; when I said it was a well-known problem in terms of that particular hotel in Detroit, what I was indicating was that the hotel is well-known to have problems in Detroit. The citizens of Detroit, as members know, did get together in a joint effort to try to solve this problem. At the present time they are just beginning to see some light at the end of that tunnel.

In terms of my staff’s knowledge of it, I think I made clear to the House when I announced this transaction with Radisson that we asked some outside people to come in and help us. Chief among them was Bob Rubinoff, chairman of Commonwealth Holiday Inns. It is no secret that Commonwealth Holiday Inns, for example, has had difficulties in some of the hotels they have gone in to run. That should not be taken in any way to impugn Commonwealth Holiday Inns’ reputation.

I asked a lot of important questions with regard to the worldwide reputation of Radisson and in running wilderness resorts. I don’t think the fact they did not give me a detailed rundown on the one problem they have had should be taken to impugn them. In any case, I do not want this to be taken in any way as my laying off on Bob Rubinoff or the people who advised me with regard to the Radisson hotels. I looked over the three alternatives we had, carefully selected Radisson and I am prepared to stand by that selection myself.

3 p.m.

CALEDON VILLAGE CONDOMINIUM DEVELOPMENT

Mr. R. F. Johnston: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Attorney General and it is with regard to the request by North York council to investigate the need for a judicial inquiry around Caledon Village.

Can the minister inform the House today whether he will recommend a judicial inquiry into the operation of Caledon Village? If he cannot, when does he think he will be in a position to make that decision?

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to make any statements on that matter today.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: Will the minister at least indicate to us today that he will not preclude taking such action merely because there is a court action under way? Does he recognize the fact that action includes an action between the condominium corporation and the initial developer, the condominium corporation and the property managers and the condominium corporation and Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation? Does he recognize that to decide not to take action because the present board is under consideration would not be a valid reason to not have an inquiry? Will the minister guarantee that will not stop him from holding an inquiry?

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: I am not going to speculate one way or the other until I have had an opportunity to review this matter in some detail, and I am not yet at that position.

Mrs. Campbell: Mr. Speaker, is the Attorney General at this time causing a review of the books of the corporation, which I understand are in his possession? Could he at least go that far?

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: We have some books which have been delivered to us, Mr. Speaker. Whether they are all the books, they are being reviewed.

LIMITATIONS LEGISLATION

Mr. Roy: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Attorney General. When can we expect to see legislation presented by him involving important changes in the law dealing with limitation by way of statutes? In view of the fact that the Ontario Law Reform Commission has been putting forward recommendations now for more than 10 years, since 1969, and the Court of Appeal stated recently that the existence of a privilege limitation period for public authorities creates what is called statutory injustice, when can we see these amendments?

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: I think it was announced earlier, Mr. Speaker, that the new limitations legislation will be introduced this spring.

Mr. Roy: Mr. Speaker, is it the Attorney General’s intention that the law will be presented this spring to be passed by summertime? What are his plans? When does he plan to see his new amendments dealing with limitations passed into law?

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: I think the member for Ottawa East appreciates that it is not within my control as to when this legislation is passed. I will obviously want to consult with my colleagues on the other side of the House, with the member for St. George and others, and some determination will need to be made as to whether this legislation should go out, for example, to a committee. These are matters that will be determined by consensus.

IRON ORE PELLETS

Mr. Mattel: Mr. Speaker, I would like to go back to the Premier’s response. He indicated the product from Inco was not marketable. Is the Premier aware Inco maintains that only in the case of rolled steel for car bodies can the product not be used; that for stainless steel it is by far the finest mix going because the nickel is already in there; and that it is an excellent mix because there is only two per cent silica, which is one of the problems the Premier referred to with respect to National Steel, from the material in Sudbury? Are we prepared to watch 500,000 tons of nonrenewable resource being dumped annually on the slag heaps in Sudbury rather than be utilized in Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I think we would much prefer to see it utilized.

Mr. Martel: That being the case, is not the problem with this material that the steel industry in Ontario has entered into long-term contracts with mines in the United States from which there is no possibility of their getting out and they must take that commitment?

What position are we going to be in when there is an upturn in the economy, since it takes about two years to put an iron ore mine on stream? How are we going to be in a position to meet that need when nothing is going ahead so that we do not have to import more to meet the nine millions that are already being brought into the province?

Hon. Mr. Davis: I expect the industry will be in a position to invest in appropriate time for the upturn in the economy the honourable member refers to.

Mr. Mattel: If it takes two years to bring a mine on stream, is the Premier suggesting we will be in the position to meet the demand when there is an increase called for by the steel industry?

Hon. Mr. Davis: I am just saying I think they have the capacity to do it if they feel there is an upturn.

RIDE DECISION

Mr. Bradley: I have a question for the Attorney General, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that the Reduce Impaired Driving Everywhere program has been placed in some jeopardy by the ruling of a provincial court judge, Maurice Charles, that the police do not have the authority to carry out spot checks, could the minister indicate to the House whether he has made a final decision on whether he will be appealing this decision?

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: The decision has been appealed, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Bradley: In view of the fact that the program has been a success in reducing the number of people who have been killed and injured and the total accidents in those areas where it is in effect, could the minister indicate to the House what procedure would be followed in those cases which would be before the courts now or are about to be brought before the courts in terms of the outcome of the appeal?

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: That would be within the discretion of each individual judge. Other provincial court judges are not bound by the decision, as the honourable member knows, of His Honour Judge Charles. There may be some people seeking an adjournment on the basis of that decision. It would be within the discretion of the presiding judge whether to grant the adjournment in relation to any decision. Some judges may want to withhold their reasons pending an appeal. I really cannot speculate as to how this would be treated. I would imagine a number of judges will not feel bound by the decision.

DISCRIMINATION IN HIRING

Mr. R. F. Johnston: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour. Could the minister give us his position as regards protection of people over the age of 65 from age discrimination in the work place, given that they are not protected under the Ontario Human Rights Code? For instance, would the minister be willing to intervene on behalf of an older citizen who is fit and wishes to continue his employment but is being denied that option?

Hon. Mr. Elgie: Mr. Speaker, I think the member should know for future reference that the Ontario Human Rights Commission already investigates informally such complaints and, I must say, investigates them very thoroughly and often provides great help in mediation.

The former part of the question assumed there had been decisions made with regard to forthcoming Human Rights Code amendments concerning the upper limit of the age. That is not so. I think that is a matter that will become known to the member in greater detail when those amendments are submitted to the House.

3:10 p.m.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: Would the minister be willing to investigate the specific individual case of a Mr. William Gibbon, an instructor of the hearing handicapped at George Brown College, who has been told that his application to continue his position next year will not be considered and has been refused an interview, even though he is physically capable of carrying on and wishes to reapply, and though he understands that he cannot be guaranteed a position wishes at least to be able to compete?

Hon. Mr. Elgie: I will be pleased to pass that information on to the Ontario Human Rights Commission on behalf of the member.

YORK-DURHAM SEWAGE SYSTEM

Mr. Stong: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of the Environment. In the light of his announcement today that the Attorney General (Mr. McMurtry) has tabled an order in council under the Expropriations Act which allows the Family Leisure Centre theme park in Maple to be completed on time, can the minister describe the special circumstances, as required by

section 6(3) of the Expropriations Act, which are necessary in the public interest to allow a private interest to meet its deadline and avoid the due process of law which is afforded to the owners of private land, particularly the 11 involved? What are the special circumstances that allow the ministry to avoid the due process of law as set out under this act in a private interest concern?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: Mr. Speaker, I do not believe it is avoiding the due process of law. I think it is clearly the privilege of the ministry to do so, and I will be glad to forward to the member a complete set of reasons for having done so. I also note that this extension will benefit not just one particular area but also the total community of Maple.

Mr. Stong: Will the minister include in his answer those special interests that would conform to the requirements of the Expropriations Act and assure this House he is not acting solely in the interest of a private concern but in the interest of the public when he allows the Expropriations Act to be avoided?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: Yes, I can assure the member we will give him that information. I think the due process is there to completely protect the people, and I am sure it will work.

Ms. Bryden: Mr. Speaker, could the minister tell us whether some of this required work that appears to be so urgent is also for the benefit of the people who received authority for the new Maple landfill?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: I believe the answer is it does not. However, I will confirm that and, if I am incorrect, I will certainly advise the member.

GASOLINE CONTAINERS

Hon. Mr. Snow: Mr. Speaker, first, I was not aware of such a practice. I can understand, though, under the present circumstances, that this may be taking place. I would point out to the honourable member that the Gasoline Handling Act and all matters relating to the storage and transportation of gasoline come under my colleague the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr. Drea).

Mr. Bounsall: As I pointed out in my question, the actual selling of gasoline in an approved container -- which I think is all the jurisdiction the minister’s colleague has -- is permitted. But where those containers go, placed loosely in a trunk or even in a van, creates quite a road safety hazard, and that is an area within this minister’s responsibility. Is he not concerned about that situation, and will he try to do something about it?

Hon. Mr. Snow: I will have my officials in the Windsor area look into this matter. If what is taking place creates an unsafe vehicle, then we may have some jurisdiction. I would also say that the transportation of gasoline, propane and other such items, not only the sale of them and the containers but also the handling of them, come under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations.

Mr. B. Newman: Mr. Speaker, would the minister also look into the situation of add-on tanks to circumvent the regulations? Individuals simply have a tank welded in a given position, in addition to the regular tank on the car, and use it solely for the purpose of taking gas from the city of Windsor and transporting it to the United States.

Hon. Mr. Snow: I shall look into that, Mr. Speaker.

DON BOSCO SECONDARY SCHOOL

Mr. Philip: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Education. Can the minister inform the House of when a final decision will be made regarding the expansion of Don Bosco Secondary School, since her ministry officials have given three different dates as to when that decision would be made and would be made public, and she has broken each and every one of those dates?

Hon. Miss Stephenson: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member’s colleague from Port Arthur (Mr. Foulds) asked a similar question earlier in this question period. If the member for Etobicoke had been here, he would realize that the final decision has not yet been made, but I hope it will be made shortly.

FRANCOPHONE ENUMERATION

Mrs. Campbell: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier. I welcomed the Premier’s commitment to this House to ensure that the enumeration for the French committee in Toronto would be in place. Is the Premier now in a position to give us the details of the solution to that problem so we will not have to continue to conjecture for very much longer?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I would have hoped that after what has been said here in the House there would be no conjecture. The problem is finding a way to do it that is appropriate and acceptable, and we are working on that. I expect we will have the solution fairly shortly.

I would say to the honourable member there is nothing to conjecture about.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: Mr. Speaker, could the Premier specify -- because it was not clear from his last answer -- whether he is planning on using the enumeration form as the format? He talked about the timing and he talked about it being ready by then, but is he planning on using that format or some other format?

I am not interested in the question but in whether he will be using that format as the enumeration notice.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I thought my answer to the member for St. George’s question was quite clear: (

a) there is no need to have any conjecture, and (

b) the details are not yet sorted out.

REFORESTATION PROGRAM

Mr. Kerrio: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Natural Resources. The minister pointed out to the Legislature two weeks ago that he had entered into agreements for reforestation with some of the large companies in the north. Does that include some very worthwhile game management plan, as they have done in other jurisdictions, or is he not questioning that aspect of reforestation?

Hon. Mr. Auld: Mr. Speaker, I think I mentioned several times in the House during the debate on the amendments to the Crown Timber Act, that one of the matters that will be addressed in the agreement, and more specifically in the manual and in the actual reforestation plans and cutting plans, will be cutting and the type of reforestation of certain species which will provide habitat for deer, moose, et cetera. We will be in a better position to do it.

We are trying to get a balance between the utilization of wood fibre for the economy and the best habitat for the wildlife, for those who enjoy wildlife.

3:20 p.m.

PETITION

BELLWOODS PARK HOUSE

Mr. McClellan: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition that is being submitted on behalf of the residents of Bellwoods Park House, which is a residence for disabled adults in Toronto. The petition reads as follows:

“To the Lieutenant Governor and Legislative Assembly of Ontario: We, the residents of Bellwoods Park House, 300 Shaw Street, Toronto, a residence housing 61 disabled adults, petition the government of Ontario to raise our comfort allowance from $51 per month to $100 per month. Because of inflation, we find it difficult to live on the existing comfort allowance. We must pay for our own television cable, purchase our own clothing and personal necessities, finance our social events and transportation. The low income we receive, too, prevents us from saving for vacations, which are necessary.

“It is with these reasons in mind that we request you to raise our comfort allowance to $100 a month, plus travel and transportation allowance of $30 a month, making a grand total of $130 a month.”

It is signed by 43 residents of the home.

Mr. Speaker: I am sure the honourable member knows that any petition praying for the expenditure of funds is clearly out of order.

Mr. McClellan: Well, I have --

Mr. Speaker: It is out of order. It is as simple as that. If the member wants, he may present it to the minister, but he cannot present it to the Legislative Assembly.

MOTION

WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION BOARD REPORT

Hon. Mr. Gregory moved that in compliance with

section 81 of the Workmen’s Compensation Amendment Act, 1973, the annual report of the Workmen’s Compensation Board, Ontario, for 1978 be referred to the standing committee on resources development for consideration starting May 22, 1980, such consideration not to exceed 15 hours and the proceedings of which shall be transcribed by Hansard and appended to the Hansard proceedings of the House.

Motion agreed to.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

LABOUR RELATIONS AMENDMENT ACT

Hon. Mr. Elgie moved first reading of Bill 73,

An Act to amend the Labour Relations Act.

Motion agreed to.

Hon. Mr. Elgie: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to amend Bill 204,

An Act to amend the Labour Relations Act, which came into force on May 1. Members will recall that Bill 204 deals with collective bargaining in the industrial, commercial and institutional (ICI) sector of the construction industry where trade bargaining takes place on a province-wide basis.

Bill 204 provided for existing area bargaining rights to be extended to cover the entire province. In addition, it provided for bargaining rights acquired on or after May 1 to be provincial in scope. The bill also prohibited partial strikes and lockouts in the industrial, commercial and institutional sector and provided a specific statutory remedy where there is a delay in ratifying collective agreements.

The amending bill introduced today deals with several procedural matters relating to the extension of those bargaining rights. Briefly, it enables local unions, as well as the employee bargaining agencies, to apply for certification. It permits local unions and district councils of local unions as well, once again, as the employee bargaining agencies, to enter into voluntary recognition agreements. Finally, it allows an applicant union with the requisite majority support to acquire area bargaining rights for non-ICI-sector work when an application for a provincial ICI certificate is made.

I will be developing the rationale for these procedural amendments during the second reading.

COMMISSIONERS OF ESTATE BILLS

Mr. Speaker: Before the orders of the day, I beg to inform the House that the Clerk has received from the commissioners of estate bills, their favourable report on the following bills:

Bill Pr7,

An Act respecting Montreal Trust Company and Montreal Trust Company of Canada;

Bill Pr23,

An Act to incorporate Knox Presbyterian Church, Ottawa;

Bill Pr25,

An Act respecting the Hamilton Foundation.

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE PAPER

Hon. Mr. Gregory: Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day, I wish to table the answers to questions 24, 26, 141, 145, 152 and 161, and the interim answers to questions 155 and 156 standing on the Notice Paper.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

RETAIL SALES TAX AMENDMENT ACT (CONTINUED)

Resuming the adjourned debate on the motion for second reading of Bill 52,

An Act to amend the Retail Sales Tax Act.

Mr. Speaker: It is my understanding that when this debate was adjourned, the Minister of Revenue was winding up with his comments on second reading.

Hon. Mr. Maeck: Mr. Speaker, I just want to answer quickly some of the questions posed by members of the opposite parties, and I want first of all to deal with gasohol. I think it might be beneficial to the members of the House if I were to read from some notes I have prepared, which the critics already have but which other members of the House were not able to have access to.

This new subsection, and I am dealing now with gasohol, complements the budget proposal to exempt from gasoline tax, methyl and ethyl alcohol when used as a source of power, provided that they (1) are used singly or in combination with another fuel as a source of power in an internal combustion engine and (2) when purchased by a consumer, are placed directly into the fuel tank of the purchaser’s vehicle by the vendor. So it eliminates in some cases where there would still be retail sales tax on alcohol, but only when it is being used in a vehicle is it tax-exempt.

The budget exempts from tax all methyl and ethyl alcohol used in internal combustion engines. At present, alcohol used in this manner is taxed under the Gasoline Tax Act, which, after amendment to that statute which we will deal with later, will remove the tax from alcohol. The way the Gasoline Tax Act is written at present, anything that goes into that gasoline tank is subject to gasoline tax; so we are correcting that in the Gasoline Tax Amendment Act.

If the amendment to this act is not effected because alcohol is no longer taxed under the Gasoline Tax Act, it would be taxed under the Retail Sales Tax Act. The reason we are bringing this amendment in is to remove that tax. As the exemption is to cover methyl and ethyl alcohol, all other alcohol, when mixed with gasoline or other fuel, will be taxable if premixed under the Gasoline Tax Act or, if purchased separately, taxed under the Retail Sales Tax Act.

The other fuels exempted by the budget, such as propane, natural and manufactured gas, et cetera, will be exempted from retail sales tax by regulation. No gasohol is available in Ontario at present; however, current plans to build stills for the commercial production of methanol and ethanol, if realized, will soon make gasohol available in limited quantities.

By currently approved ratios of mix -- that is, 10 per cent alcohol to 90 per cent gasoline, I say to the member for Renfrew North (Mr. Conway) with a smile -- a substantial reduction in gasoline consumption can be realized. If all gasoline sold were gasohol, at present consumption levels approximately 1.25 billion litres of gasoline would be conserved annually. So while this is not going to have a direct effect on revenue for this current year, the thrust of the whole thing is to encourage people to move in the direction of substitute fuels for vehicles.

The member for Kent-Elgin (Mr. McGuigan) talked about dual-fuel vehicles -- in other words, vehicles that burn propane gas as well as gasoline -- and wondered about the removal of sales tax on those vehicles. It is not the intent of the government at this time to remove the sales tax on those vehicles. The amendment only removes sales tax on vehicles which will be burning propane or natural gas or other substitute fuels, but as long as a vehicle still burns gasoline, it will be subject to sales tax.

3:30 p.m.

There were several speakers who talked about children’s wear and children’s shoes. Of course, that is not in the amendments at all, Mr. Speaker, but I thought I should assure the members -- and I have talked to the member for Etobicoke (Mr. Philip) and the member for Hamilton Mountain (Mr. Charlton) on this subject on several occasions -- that my ministry staff are looking into the price of shoes today in comparison to what they cost in 1974, when this act was brought in.

As a matter of fact, I think we even got a supplementary question from the great member for Renfrew North, who called the act “niggardly,” if I remember the word correctly. We are looking into that with a view to advising the Treasurer (Mr. F. S. Miller) of what results we get from it. As members know, in the final analysis it would be a policy matter and would have to he approved by the Treasurer.

The member for Beaches-Woodbine (Ms. Bryden) talked about solar energy. As members know, we removed the sales tax on most equipment dealing with solar energy in the budget last year; so it is, of course, not dealt with in this budget at all.

The member for Windsor-Walkerville (Mr. B. Newman) talked about the ministry adopting the same exemptions as the federal government, and we will look into that. As a matter of fact, I have written a letter to the member on that particular subject.

The member for Victoria-Haliburton (Mr. Eakins) talked about a greater exemption on children’s shoes. Again, I have already replied to that. He talked about the Millard case, which is a case he has written to me about and which deals with retail sales tax. At this point we are not prepared to change the act in that regard.

I think that covers all the questions that were asked. Some members made statements rather than asking questions. Obviously when the amendments to the act are so well accepted by all the people in the province, all that remains for the opposition at that point in time is to say, “it’s too little, too late,” or that kind of remark. Nevertheless, I am quite proud of the budget that has been brought in this year and proud of the fact that we are not increasing taxes.

One other point I should mention is that there was a comparison made by the member for Haldimand-Norfolk (Mr. C. I. Miller) between this year’s deficit and the deficit last year. If members will recall, the projected deficit last year was $1.2 billion, rather than the less than $800 million that was the actual deficit. That was simply because we were able to collect more revenues than we had anticipated. What has been happening is that comparisons have been made with the projected deficit of this year against the projected deficit of last year, which was not the deficit at all. I think that covers all the remarks that I had to make on this particular bill.

Motion agreed to.

Ordered for third reading.

CORPORATIONS TAX AMENDMENT ACT

Hon. Mr. Maeck moved second reading of Bill 53,

An Act to amend the Corporations Tax Act, 1972.

Hon. Mr. Maeck: Mr. Speaker, this bill to amend the Corporations Tax Act includes several important amendments arising out of the 1980 Ontario budget Four important changes are being made which will affect small business corporations.

First, a new small business tax credit is being introduced. This tax incentive is designed to encourage reinvestment by small business corporations by providing for an income tax credit equal to 20 per cent of the purchase cost of depreciable assets for use in Ontario. The maximum credit in any year for any small business reinvesting in new plant and equipment will be $3,000. This program will be continued until April 22, 1982, during which time it should assist small business corporations in building and strengthening their investment in their businesses.

Second, the effective income tax rate for professional and personal service corporations will remain at 10 per cent. Up until October 23, 1979, these corporations qualified for this low rate when they ceased to qualify for the 10 per cent rate as a result of an amendment to the federal Income Tax Act. Without this amendment the effective Ontario income tax rate for these corporations would have increased from 10 per cent to 14 per cent, an increase of about 40 per cent.

As a consequence of this amendment and the federal amendment, income earned by professional and personal service corporations will be taxed at a combined effective rate of 33.3 per cent. This rate is between the 25 per cent rate which they formerly enjoyed and the 37.3 per cent rate which they might otherwise have been taxed.

Third, the $100 capital tax is being extended to small to medium-sized corporations with taxable capital in excess of $200,000 and up to $1 million. For those corporations whose taxable capital exceeds $1 million, a notch provision is also being enacted to phase in the difference between the $100 tax and the higher capital tax they would otherwise pay.

Fourth, a special $50 capital tax will apply to family fishing corporations. This special tax is similar to the $50 capital tax now being paid by family farm corporations.

Two other important changes relate to nonresident corporations. First, this bill will repeal clauses of the Corporations Tax Act which subject to Ontario income tax nonresident corporations carrying on business in Ontario without a permanent establishment. These clauses caused nonresident corporations operating elsewhere in Canada uncertainty and interfered with the interprovincial allocations of income taxes. For these reasons these clauses are being repealed.

Second, for purposes of calculating the capital tax, an investment allowance will be applicable to loans made to a nonresident related corporation, provided that the loans have been outstanding for at least 120 days at the end of the lending corporation’s taxation year.

Finally, this bill includes three administrative measures which are of interest to all corporations. First, payments received on or after October 1, 1980, will be applied in the following order to corporations tax: to interest, to penalties, to taxes payable.

Second, effective October 1, 1980, interest will be charged on penalties as well as on taxes payable.

The third and final administrative amendment is of particular interest to a corporation which because its tax liability is $2,000 or more is required to pay its taxes in monthly instalments during the taxation year. After the corporations tax return is filed and assessed, interest calculated on deficient or excessive instalment payments will not be recalculated if after subsequent reassessment the corporation’s tax liability is increased or decreased.

This bill does not include certain other amendments relating to corporations income tax credits arising out of the 1980 Ontario budget. These changes are being made by amending the Small Business Development Corporations Act, 1979, and by enacting the Ontario Mineral Exploration Program Act, 1980. These acts offer tax incentives to corporations which have invested in small business development corporations or in approved mineral exploration programs.

Mr. Haggerty: Mr. Speaker, I want to address myself to the Act to amend the Corporations Tax Act, 1972. Perhaps I am like some other members in the House here who are a little bit in the dark. When one gets into this particular area dealing with the Corporations Tax Act, a person should be an expert in the area. From my discussions with accountants back in my area, I find it is a specialist field. When the bill is introduced here in the Legislature, we on the opposition side do not have research in depth dealing with corporations tax.

When we also have to deal with the area of the federal Income Tax Act and Revenue Canada, we are not perhaps most suitable to be addressing ourselves to this particular bill. It is a field in itself.

3:40 p.m.

My comments will lead more to questions relating to each

section of the act. Would the minister inform the members what the rationale is for removing from the act the taxation status of nonresidential businesses? I am not quite sure what the intent is here. Are there other areas of taxation policies picking up the lost revenue of nonresident corporations? In one of his corporation tax branch information bulletins, the minister does set out an example dealing with corporation X, corporation Y and corporation Z. From the way it ends up, credit available can vary from $500 to $277. I would bring that to the attention of the minister.

There seems to be a substantial increase, from four per cent to 10 per cent, for the small business service corporations in the deduction program that relates to

section

Section 4 adds a new subsection 36b to the act to provide an additional deduction from the tax payable by corporations eligible for the small business deduction under

section 125(1) of the Income Tax Act (Canada). Again, that relates to the federal income tax.

In this particular area, I suppose the minister should be looking at consolidating the corporations tax provincially and federally. There are other provinces, I understand, in our Confederation, where through the federal Income Tax Act the federal government collects the corporations tax. I suggested to the minister before that I thought we should be moving in this area to make it more understandable to those small businessmen who have to deal with two particular Income Tax Acts as they relate to corporations and small businesses. I suggest the minister should be looking at that.

Hon. Mr. Maeck: I have.

Mr. Haggerty: The minister has indicated he has. I haven’t seen it to date. If it is, it must be in piecemeal, I guess.

As it stands, depreciable property is physical property acquired to gain or produce income such as equipment in office buildings. Does the minister intend to define more specifically this particular area? He gives some tax concessions to corporations and small businesses, but he cannot remove the sales tax on depreciable goods such as workers’ safety boots.

The matter was raised during the sales tax debate that there should be removal of sales tax on shoes. In this particular area, I would suggest he should be giving it to the other taxpayers within the confines of the Ministry of Revenue.

Does the minister intend to bring any restrictions on the matter as it relates to depreciable property? This is quite a good tax concession given to the corporations and small businesses. One would have to start to look deeper and say, “Are there any other areas in Ontario that are allowed tax depreciation on equipment?” I wonder what benefits will be derived from this particular area of taxation the minister is applying today under these amendments to the Corporations Tax Act. Will there be a benefit to the province?

We have seen previously where the minister has removed the sales tax, for example, on equipment in industry because it was supposed to create a number of new jobs in Ontario. Until this day we haven’t seen those new jobs come forward. When we go deeper into the taxation policies of this ministry, we have to look at the loans or grants that were given to the paper industry in Ontario. If they had accepted that tax rebate program a few years ago, we wouldn’t have to be giving the grants out today which they never did apply for.

Again, we have to look at

section 6 of the act as it relates to a corporation paying the $50 where its taxable paid-up capital does not exceed $100,000.

Can the minister provide members with an explanation as to why this

section is being introduced for nonresident corporations? What benefit is there to the province when we apply this amendment? Can the minister indicate under

section 5 what benefits will be derived for Ontario? Can we look to see an expansionary program in corporations here where they perhaps will be out hiring new employees and creating new jobs in this province? I would have to look at it as it relates to that section.

Section 6 does apply to a nonresident corporation employing paid-up capital in Canada which will be treated on the same basis as resident corporations for the purpose of

section 133a. In your corporations tax branch information bulletin, I think there is a particular

section which applies to this section, liability of nonresidents with nonpermanent establishments in Ontario,

section 2(2)(d),

section 2(3)(d).

The

section of the act goes on to say, “extended the liability for income tax to corporations incorporated in a jurisdiction outside of Canada which carries on business in Ontario without a permanent establishment. They are repealed retroactive to December 1977. Corporations carrying on business in Ontario and liable for tax under this provision since December 7, 1977, will not have to file Ontario returns and will not be subject to Ontario tax.” it is difficult to follow the policy of the Ministry of Revenue.

We are having a discussion on succession duties tax later on today, and here we are going to make legislation retroactive to gather additional taxes. If I interpret that correctly, we are going to forgive it here. The minister is taking it out of one pocket and putting it --

Interjection.

Mr. Haggerty: It just doesn’t make sense in what he is trying to arrive at. This is what I am saying. It takes an expert in this area to find out what he is heading for. I haven’t been able to go through the bill, as I should as a critic, but as I said before, one has to be an expert to deal with corporations tax.

In my experience sitting as a member of the select committee dealing with Inco, for example, and with the massive layoffs there, when one is sitting in committee firing questions to the directors of that company, they don’t have the answers. They will look at you and say, “We have an expert in this particular area,” and they call upon that expert. They are very capable persons, but even the directors can’t provide all the answers.

That is why I say in this particular field I feel the members of the Legislature should have additional research in this area or be provided with additional background papers so we can stand up in the House and discuss the amendments perhaps far better than what is being put forward today.

With those comments, I will leave it there, and perhaps the minister can answer some of the questions I have raised.

Mr. Charlton: Mr. Speaker, I say to the minister at the outset we are going to support the bill, but I have a number of comments, a number of questions and a bit of chastising of the minister in terms of the approach that is always taken with these kinds of tax actions.

3:50 p.m.

There is no question in our minds, with the present economic situation, with interest rates, inflation and the pressures small business gets from large corporate competitors, chain stores and so on, no matter what sector we are talking about, that small business is under extreme pressure and any tax measure which is in effect a tax expenditure in order to assist small business, is difficult for anybody to oppose. Any assistance they get in the tax sector cannot do any harm. I suppose that is avoiding the point though a bit.

Just because a measure cannot possibly do any harm does not necessarily mean that it is going to do an exceptional amount of good. That is what is missing in terms of the presentation in the budget, I think, and in terms of the minister’s presentation of the bill.

We are happy to see the extension from $200,000 on the flat rate tax to $1 million in the second step and so on. All of these measures cannot help but assist somebody in some way. I suppose what the members of the Legislature would like to know, though, is the cost of each of these specific initiatives and what kinds of businesses are going to receive the benefits.

What specific goals do the minister and the Treasurer have in mind? How did they determine what the breaks will be in terms of each of the sections that we have here: the flat rate tax, the 10 per cent, the extension of the small business credit at 20 per cent or $500, whichever is greater, and so on?

How did they specifically determine the levels at which each of those things was going to be set? Was it just based on the number of dollars they had to play with? Did they have a specific goal in mind in terms of the types of businesses they were trying to target and assist? Did they have a specific goal in mind in terms of the potential for the number of jobs they might try to create by that kind of an action? What it boils down to is, what are the targets and why did they use the specific numbers they have used? We obviously do not have any of the analysis they and their staffs used when they set the particular levels.

I guess this goes back to the resolution that was presented in this House a few weeks ago by the member for London Centre (Mr. Peterson). Would the minister be prepared to table in the House next spring an analysis of the results of these actions so that members of this House can start to understand in a more effective way the beneficial effect of the measures they have supported in the past and so that we can understand whether new measures he is bringing in are relevant in terms of the kinds of things that are being said about them in the budget presentation and so on?

As the member for Erie (Mr. Haggerty) has already pointed out, we quite often get put in the position in this House -- whether it be new tax relief to small business under this act, whether it be reduction for six months in the retail sales tax or whatever the action happens to be -- of not being able to look effectively at the net result.

We are not in a position to criticize these or any other measures that are being undertaken by the government in relation to other tax measures, reduction measures and so on, which from past experience might be more beneficial in terms of their specific assistance to small business in hard times or their specific initiative in creating new jobs, or even in maintaining existing jobs, if that’s what the goal happens to be.

But the minister, the Treasurer and the government always tend to put us on this side of the House in a very difficult situation when something is presented in the light that it is additional assistance to small business, which is under tremendous pressure. We have no effective way of analysing in advance exactly what the effects of these changes will be that the minister, the ministry and the Treasury have obviously done some work on. That kind of presentation would be extremely useful to us.

Hon. Mr. Maeck: Mr. Speaker, I’ll deal with the questions posed by the member for Erie first. He was interested in the nonresident corporations and why we were removing them from the tax rolls. This change is parallel to what the federal government now is doing. Our former position was outside international tax agreements that had been signed by the federal government. The federal government has been pressing us in Ontario for the last couple of years -- since 1977, I guess -- to change that particular piece of legislation, and it does bring Ontario into line with all of the other provinces which have already adopted this situation.

Who is affected by this? It will affect foreign corporations which conduct business in Ontario but do not have an office here. They are mainly people in the mail-order business; companies with travelling salesmen based in the United States who might take orders in Ontario that are to be filled in the United States; or companies which send salesmen from the United States to Canada to receive specialized orders, even though they may have subsidiaries in Canada to fill general orders, but special orders not manufactured here and are sometimes referred to the parent company in the United States.

This is the type of thing we are talking about. As I indicated, the reason for all of this is to stay in line with the treaties that have been signed by the federal government.

The member for Erie also suggested that we should get in line -- he said this last year too -- and I thought I explained to him that, I guess it was in 1977, we brought in the new Corporations Tax Act, and it’s in line with the federal government, with few exceptions. What we do now is bring in --

Mr. Haggerty: The government is making them parallel.

Hon. Mr. Maeck: Yes, that’s right. That’s exactly what we’re doing; each year, as I’m sure members will recall, there are more amendments being brought in that parallel the federal legislation. These are the areas that we haven’t already paralleled, but almost all of the legislation now is parallel with the federal legislation.

As I recall, it was Bill 88, back in 1977, that was passed by this Legislature. Most of those concerns that the member for Erie has registered have already been looked after.

The member talked about

section 5, dealing with the 120 days for the deduction of paid-up capital for nonresident corporations. That is there simply to remove the problem that now exists whereby, just prior to tax-filing time, corporations were able to remove certain funding from the subsidiary corporation and, therefore, not pay any tax on it. What we are saying is, it must be a bona fide transfer of funds and, therefore, it must take place at least 120 days before that; so they can’t play and cook the books. That’s the idea.

The member talked about depreciation on equipment and so on and asked what benefit would be derived from that. Obviously the depreciation on equipment and the removal of sales tax on equipment, which I think he also mentioned, are incentives for small business and industries to progress and to provide more jobs. That’s the whole thrust of this kind of legislation.

Let’s be honest about it. When they buy equipment, it eventually wears out. They should be entitled to depreciate it. They cannot buy a new car or a new truck, if they are in a business, and expect it to last forever. When it is worn out, as for any other piece of equipment, it must be replaced. It’s normal to assume that corporations should be entitled to depreciation on any of this type of equipment.

4 p.m.

The member for Hamilton Mountain (Mr. Charlton) was asking about the costs of the initiation of the major programs; I presume he meant in the legislation. The

section that deals with depreciable assets will cost the province something like $30 million. That’s what we will lose in revenue by bringing in this amendment to the act. The cost for the capital tax program is in the neighbourhood of $20 million. What we have effectively done is infuse about $50 million into incentive programs for small businesses in the province.

He was wondering whether it would be possible to produce some results at the end of the year, or at the end of any given time, to see what effect this sort of program has. That would be a very difficult thing to do, simply because the economy changes from day to day. While we might bring this program in and measure from today, if other things change during that period of time in the economy it would be pretty hard to say exactly what effect this infusion of money into the small businesses and corporations would have.

We do our best to keep track of the results, but the figures are usually pretty loose at best. They’re not very accurate. Conditions change from day to day, and it’s very difficult. If everything remained static, it would be very simple to say, “At the end of 12 months this is what we’ve done.” But things do not remain static in the economy and we would have a great deal of difficulty in doing that.

As I said earlier, these programs are an incentive for small business, to assist them. I think all of us know that about 60 per cent of the jobs in Ontario are with small corporations and businesses. It’s important that we keep those people viable and operational and give them an incentive, particularly through depreciation allowances, to put money back into the business and expand as much as possible. If they do that, it’s to be hoped we are going to create more jobs. It doesn’t always work that way, because they find ways and means of becoming more efficient, and sometimes it costs us jobs. But on the whole I think the thrust the Treasurer had in mind was to create jobs.

Motion agreed to.

Ordered for third reading.

GASOLINE TAX AMENDMENT ACT

Hon. Mr. Maeck moved second reading of Bill 54,

An Act to amend the Gasoline Tax Act.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Does the honourable minister have an opening statement?

Hon. Mr. Maeck: I thought I had, Mr. Speaker, but I’ve lost my page. I can find tobacco tax, and I can find many other things. Help is on its way, they tell me.

Mr. Speaker, this bill,

An Act to amend the Gasoline Tax Act, if passed, will effect those energy conservation budget proposals for alcohol and natural and manufactured gases, thus providing a lower effective tax rate for gasoline-alcohol mixtures and full exemption for natural and manufactured gases when used in internal combustion engines.

By providing the equivalent of the 10 per cent tax reduction on gasohol and complete tax exemption for propane and other types of natural or manufactured gases, recognition is given to our commitment for conservation of this country’s precious supplies of gasoline and other nonrenewable and rapidly depleting energy sources.

This bill introduces provisions which, when enacted, will further Ontario’s plan to become less dependent on supplies of oil by providing the necessary tax incentives to make these alternative energy sources cost-competitive.

Members will recall that I referred to the amendments of this particular bill when we were discussing the retail sales tax on gasohol because they are interrelated.

Mr. Haggerty: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support Bill 54,

An Act to amend the Gasoline Tax Act. I think we can agree on this side that any conservation of energy is rather important at this particular time.

The budget statement, under the Gasoline Tax Act, said an exemption would be provided for alcohol when used alone or when blended with another fuel for the purpose of generating power by means of internal combustion. How is the minister going to remove the tax when, say, alcohol or other manufactured gases may be blended? How does one remove that tax at the gas pump if you are going to have it blended? Where is that gas tax going to be removed? That is the only question I want to clear up at this time. When the gasoline or fuel is blended, how will that tax be removed?

Will it be removed at the place of purchase, at the gas pump, or the service station, wherever it may be, or is it removed from some other area?

Hon. Mr. Maeck: I will answer that question later.

Mr. Charlton: Mr. Speaker, I will be very brief, because I think I probably made most of my comments in relation to this bill when we were dealing with the Retail Sales Tax Act.

We have no serious problem in supporting the measures that are being taken here. Very briefly, I say again to the minister, the criticism is that these measures in themselves are very innocent, very progressive and very forward looking, but in isolation they become a joke. In isolation they have no meaning unless this government is prepared to do something to see that those vehicles in which this kind of fuel can be used are made available on a large scale.

I had a discussion with the minister the other night. He is going to make some comment about things that can be done to make them available but, for them to be available on a large scale in this province, some actions have to be taken. It is quite obvious that the industrial sector in this province is not prepared to do that now on its own, and additional actions are needed by this government to see that they happen.

I urge the minister to avoid being the brunt of a joke 10 years down the road when still nothing has happened, by now urging his colleagues the Treasurer (Mr. F. S. Miller), the Minister of Industry and Tourism. (Mr. Grossman), I suppose the Premier (Mr. Davis) and for that matter the Minister of Energy (Mr. Welch), to get off their behinds and do some serious work dealing with some of the serious suggestions that have been made by Energy critics from this side of the House and a number of other people.

This action on its own has very little value in this province. The minister himself admits that, in terms of the exemptions provided here and in the Retail Sales Tax Act dealing with fuel and vehicles, the tax loss will be very small because of the situation which exists in this province today.

Mr. Makarchuk: Mr. Speaker, I just have one point on this bill. It deals with

section 1(d)(i), which refers to “aviation fuel, except when used or intended to be used to generate power by means of internal combustion in a vehicle other than an aircraft.”

4:10 p.m.

The way I read it is that it could be aviation fuel, but, provided it is not used in the aircraft, it becomes exempt under the minister’s regulations. Aviation fuel can be used in an ordinary vehicle. There are various types of aviation fuel and some of it operates very well, It could be used in a car, a truck or whatever internal combustion engine is used -- even one’s lawn mower -- without any problem whatsoever.

Unless I misread it, I don’t know the exact meaning of that section. In effect, if one buys it at the airport and sticks it in one’s car, then it becomes exempt from taxation, although it is the same fuel that is obtained at the ordinary gas pump. I hope the minister will clarify that in his explanation.

Hon. Mr. Maeck: Mr. Speaker, first of all, to deal again with the member for Erie (Mr. Haggerty), he asked one question and wanted to know how the tax is going to be removed. It is simply done at the pump. Tax would be charged on the gasoline and not on the alcohol.

If one puts 10 gallons in one’s tank, nine gallons are gasoline and one gallon is alcohol; one pays tax on the nine gallons of gasoline, but none on the alcohol. As I understand it, it is a very simple method of doing it, and I don’t think there is any problem with the administration of that at all.

The member for Hamilton Mountain (Mr. Charlton) has referred to some of these things being a joke on two occasions now. I let it go by the first time, but I cannot let it go by a second time. I consider this to be a pretty serious piece of legislation. I do not consider it to be a joke at all. I don’t think any move this government makes to encourage people to use substitute fuels with the type of fuel problems we have today in this world, is a joke.

I would remind the member for Hamilton Mountain that in the United States there are many states where a great deal of alcohol is being used in a mixture of fuel now. I do not think there was any incentive on the part of those governments to promote that. I think it will be a natural thing. We are putting it in place to encourage people to do it.

As I have indicated to the member in our conversations, we have also removed the sales tax on vehicles that will burn this kind of substitute fuel. Surely that is an incentive for people when they are on the market.

I admit they are not easily obtainable today, but they will be. And we want to tell people there is an incentive there for them to purchase vehicles other than gasoline-burning vehicles and to use alternative sources of fuel. I think one of the good ways to do it is to say to the consumer, “If you want to burn alcohol, if you want to burn propane, if you want to burn natural gas in your vehicle when they come on the market, we will not charge you sales tax, to encourage you to do so.”

I understand it will cost something like $1,500 at this point for a kit to convert a vehicle to burn propane gas or natural gas.

The problem is, of course, it is very difficult to obtain these kits. I understand they are only manufactured at this time in the United States, and they cannot meet the demand -- but that is not to say that will always be the case. The knowledge is there now to convert vehicles for the use of this type of fuel, and we hope this will encourage the consumer to demand this kind of vehicle. When the demand is there, I think it will be available.

I was patiently waiting for an answer from my staff on the question asked by the member for Brantford (Mr. Makarchuk), because I am not quite sure myself. But I think the answer is simply that we cannot deal with this amendment without taking into consideration the amendment to the retail sales tax, because I think the two work in conjunction with each other. I do not think it will be possible under this act to buy aviation fuel free of gasoline tax to put in a vehicle.

Mr. Makarchuk: That is the way it reads right now.

Hon. Mr. Maeck: Yes. I am having it checked out to see, but I do not think that is the case.

Mr. Makarchuk: I should hope not.

Hon. Mr. Maeck: Mr. Speaker, I think my note is coming now. Perhaps this will give us all the enlightened answer. I am told that if aviation fuel is used in other than aircraft, the fuel becomes gasoline by definition and is taxed at 4.6 cents per litre. So that apparently is covered.

Motion agreed to.

Ordered for third reading.

TOBACCO TAX AMENDMENT ACT

Hon. Mr. Maeck moved second reading of Bill 61,

An Act to amend the Tobacco Tax Act.

Hon. Mr. Maeck: Mr. Speaker, this bill to amend the Tobacco Tax Act contains administrative and deterrent provisions necessary to stop the sale of tobacco products in the province without the payment of Ontario tax. The principal source of this untaxed tobacco is wholesalers who do not hold a valid tobacco tax wholesale dealer’s permit. This tax evasion is currently costing Ontario approximately $5 million in tax revenues annually. Further, it is creating unfair price competition for those tobacco wholesalers operating in accordance with the act.

This bill contains only those investigative powers necessary to prove evasion and deterrent measures commensurate to the benefits to be derived from such tax evasion. It in no way affects a wholesaler, retailer or individual operating within the law. The provisions of this bill, while correcting the current inadequacies of the Tobacco Tax Act, will, by enabling the stopping of such tax evasion, preserve the basic tenet of Ontario’s tax system: voluntary compliance.

Mr. Haggerty: Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak on Bill 61,

An Act to amend the Tobacco Tax Act. We on this side will be supporting the measures put forward by the minister as they relate to those persons who are violating the existing act; that is, those wholesalers who are not paying their taxes as they should be.

The only difficulty I find in reading the explanatory notes is the use of the word “may”; that is, “the minister may.” When he was specific in saying there was $5 million of lost revenue, I thought he would be more definite in his proposal and say the minister “shall” instead of “may” if he wanted to go after those persons in violation of the act. It mentions wholesalers. I do not know whether it mentions anything about vendors under this particular section. I guess it does in subsections 2(4) to (7). I do not know what effect this bill will have on vendors.

I have usually seen a vendor’s licence indicated over the top of the cigarette case where they are selling them. Perhaps we are looking at those wholesalers who may be operating vending machines in Ontario. That may be where the violations could occur more. There are other small vendors who sell cigarettes to accommodate certain persons; for example, they may be sold at a golf course. I do not know whether I have seen a vendor’s licence there, but should we extend it to vendors as well as wholesalers?

The area the minister should be getting tax revenue from is wholesalers instead of vendors. Sometimes it is rather difficult. People do not understand the act as it relates to vendors. I suggest wholesalers should be paying the tax directly, and vendors should be left alone. If vendors want to sell cigarettes at a golf course, at a service station, or wherever, perhaps they should be exempt and collect the tax directly from the wholesalers.

I said before we will support the amendment to the act and we hope the minister is going to be successful with it.

4:20 p.m.

Mr. Charlton: Mr. Speaker, I will be very brief in speaking to Bill 61. We are going to support the bill. Obviously along with the minister and the government we have no desire to see taxes that are due and payable under Ontario legislation being evaded. My colleague from Brantford has raised this kind of issue on a number of occasions in the past with the present minister, I would assume, but at least with several former ministers.

We are going to support the legislation to try to help the minister fill in some holes and deal more effectively with the collection of the tax. It seems to me this is a problem that has been going on for quite a number of years in Ontario. Why has it taken so long for us to come to terms with the problem? Has it been in terms of finding the way to deal with it or in realizing the extent of the problem? It has always been fairly clear to me, having worked in a gas station all through high school, that it has been going on for a number of years. The problem has been there in a fairly substantial way for quite some time.

Mr. Makarchuk: Mr. Speaker, I want to raise briefly a matter which I raised with the minister’s staff some time ago in a letter. This deals with the people on the Indian reserves who have the right to sell cigarettes without having to collect taxes for them. The merchants who have stores in the outlying areas complain rather strongly that they feel that cigarettes are not sold only to the native people but that all sorts of other people go in there and purchase cigarettes by the trunkful -- in some cases they say by the truckload -- without having to pay the tax and walk away. Naturally, the people who have to pay the tax are at a great disadvantage in terms of economics.

I wonder whether the minister has looked into those situations and whether he knows in how many other places in Ontario similar situations exist.

If he does, is there any way it can be controlled without impinging on the traditional rights of the native people, however those rights were established, to continue not to have to pay certain federal and provincial taxes, while at the same time ensuring fair treatment for those people who have to pay taxes but are at a disadvantage because of some devious ways or knowledge of the situation or friendship of those who are able to go and buy cigarettes not only for their own use but also for purposes of resale in order to evade taxes and naturally not pay their fair share of the taxation?

Mr. G. I. Miller: Mr. Speaker, for clarification purposes, I have a couple of questions I would like to ask the Minister of Revenue. Is this going to increase the cost of cigarettes to the consumer? From the way it is averaged in the legislation, will the seller be able to collect more money for collecting the tax on behalf of the province? Would he clarify those two points?

Hon. Mr. Maeck: Mr. Speaker, I will deal with the members in order. The member for Erie wanted to know why we used the word “may.” By using the word “may,” it puts the ministry in a position where there is some discretion in minor situations where we may not want to proceed beyond a certain point. It does give us some discretion in the matter in that we are not necessarily forced to impose a penalty in minor cases.

He also mentioned that the vendors should be exempt from collecting the tax. Of course, they are already exempt from collecting the tax. The tax is collected by the wholesaler and not by the vendor at all. But the whole thrust of this legislation is simply this: Up to this time if someone were wholesaling cigarettes without a wholesale permit -- in other words, sort of bootlegging cigarettes -- we had no real penalty. All we could do was charge them with selling cigarettes without having a wholesale permit. What we have done here is bring in much stiffer penalties for those kinds of people.

The member for Hamilton Mountain says: “Why now? Why not before?” That is a good question except that I would say for the last two or three years, until this particular year, the member will recall we did raise the tobacco tax every year on cigarettes and so on, and we are now in a position where we are very concerned about cigarettes coming in from such places as Alberta where the tax is very low. I am told a transport load of cigarettes could be brought from Alberta with a profit of perhaps more than $100,000 per load because of the difference in taxes between the two provinces.

So that is what has perhaps made it a lot more urgent than it was in the past. We don’t see that happening to a great extent yet, but we want to be able to stop it now.

The other thing, of course, as the member for Brantford mentioned, is the matter of the Indian reserves. It has always been known on certain reserves -- not all Indian reserves by any means -- that they were able to buy their cigarettes tax-free from the wholesaler. Then, of course, they end up where they shouldn’t end up. We have no intention of imposing any tax on the Indians for the cigarettes or tobacco they will use themselves, but the act was never meant to allow cigarettes to be purchased on a reserve, then brought out of a reserve and sold to other people.

There are complaints; we are receiving complaints from wholesalers who are being affected. I am talking about legitimate wholesalers outside the reservations. There are various ways, of course, for disposal of these cigarettes. I have had complaints from quite a few wholesalers who notice the amounts of their sales are going down simply because there are cigarettes coming in from other areas.

Mr. Kerrio: Do you put a stamp on your cigarettes?

Hon. Mr. Maeck: No, we don’t any more. At one time, I think the province did put some sort of a stamp on, but it was not very effective and it was quite a cost to the tobacco companies, as well. That is done in the United States, but they are still having the same types of problems with their cigarettes in most states as we are having with ours. The figure of $5 million I talked about in my opening remarks is only an estimate. We can’t be sure of how much tax loss there is, but we feel there is about that amount being lost as a result of the fact that we don’t have any way of penalizing anyone.

If members go through this amendment to the Tobacco Tax Act, they will find the penalties are rather severe but, if they don’t break the law, those penalties obviously won’t apply to anybody.

If we are going to pass legislation in this House and impose a tax, we must be assured that people are going to pay that tax. As long as there is an easy loophole and a very small penalty involved, there is no encouragement or inducement for people to buy a wholesaler’s licence so that we would have control over them. We are having some problems with it, and I appreciate the support of both parties in this amendment.

Motion agreed to.

Ordered for third reading.

Hon. Mr. Maeck: Mr. Speaker, I understand now that the parties opposite are prepared to go ahead with the other bill I have before the Legislature; is that right?

Mr. Acting Speaker: Which bill is that, Mr. Minister?

Hon. Mr. Maeck: On succession duties; I can’t remember the number.

4:30 p.m.

SUCCESSION DUTY ACT SUPPLEMENTARY PROVISIONS ACT

Hon. Mr. Maeck moved second reading of Bill 62,

An Act for the making of Additional Provisions for the Levy and Payment of Succession Duty by or in respect of Property or Persons to whom The Succession Duty Act remains Applicable.

Hon. Mr. Maeck: Mr. Speaker, this bill provides supplementary provisions to the Succession Duty Act which are essential if tax revenues in excess of $100 million are to be preserved from loss.

Tax planners in the year following the repeal of both the Succession Duty Act and the Gift Tax Act have determined that where a will allows encroachment to an undutiable spouse, this can be used as an effective method to exempt from duty the otherwise dutiable estate of an individual dying before April 11, 1979. This was never the intent when the Treasurer repealed the Succession Duty Act in his 1979 budget.

Second, in order to expedite the settlement of estates where duty is deferred, this bill allows for payment in 1980 of such deferred duties based on estates’ values established as of April 10, 1979.

After the introduction of this bill, a number of representations were made to me by interested groups, including the wills and trusts

section of the Canadian Bar Association. As a result of the points raised in these representations, I shall be referring this bill to committee in order to propose three amendments to deal with concerns raised.

An amendment will be proposed to

section 3(2) of the bill to ensure the subsection applies only to duty that is now payable or that has been paid. This will ensure that this subsection will not apply to the deferred duty on interests which have not fallen into possession and that are dealt with in the bill by

section 3(3).

The second amendment will be to

section 4 of the bill which now applies only to benefits conferred by the exercise of a discretion. This

section will be extended to enable the minister to extend the same treatment to benefits that are conferred by the exercise of disclaimer or by the surrender, release, waiver or transfer of any right or interest. In effect, the amendment will give to the minister authority to deal with both clauses (

a) and (

b) of

section 3(1) of the bill in the same way when the same circumstances exist. This was an oversight on the part of the people who drafted the bill and is a request made by the members of the Canadian Bar Association.

The third amendment will be to

section 9 of the bill and it is intended to meet, so far as the protection of revenue will allow, the concerns of those who wrote to me on their retroactive application of the provisions of the bill. The bill now provides that a post mortem or rearrangement of the affairs of an estate cannot give rise to a refund or reduction of duties which are now payable. It also provides that those who benefit from those post mortem arrangements may be liable to duty on the value of those benefits.

The intention of the bill was to preserve duty that was paid or payable at the time of the repeal of the Succession Duty Act. This can, in my view, be done by preventing the refund or reduction of duty that is now payable, and it does not require retroactivity for the provisions of the bill that would extract tax on those who benefit from post mortem rearrangements of the affairs of an estate.

Accordingly, the amendment to

section 9 will remove the retroactive application of

section 3(3) of the bill and will ensure that tax will be paid only on post mortem arrangements where the benefit from the arrangement occurs on or after April 29; in other words, we are removing that retroactivity in between, the date when the bill was introduced in this House, which was April 29. That amendment will remove the possibility of retroactive taxation for benefits that were given prior to the introduction of this bill and after the repeal of the Succession Duty Act.

In my view, the amendments I have described will not impair the purpose of the bill and will give effect to genuine concerns that were expressed to me by the legal profession and others.

Mrs. Campbell: What the minister said latterly causes me some concern, because it seems to me some of the amendments proposed really do change to some extent the purpose of this bill. I am not the critic, and I don’t wish to assume that responsibility, but I wonder whether procedurally we should go on with this bill until we have those amendments before us and can study them and understand whether they do effect the purpose of the bill.

Mr. Acting Speaker: The member for York Centre.

Mrs. Campbell: He wants to answer me.

Mr. Acting Speaker: This is in debate at the present time. You only have the right to speak once. That is the general rule of the House.

Have you got a short answer, Mr. Minister?

Hon. Mr. Maeck: I understood that the member for St. George really rose on a point of order rather than debate of the bill.

Mr. Acting Speaker: If that’s the

interpretation the House wants to put on it, I’ll go along