VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, JUNE 12, 1981 NO. 59

June 12, 1981 The House met at 10:00 A.M . Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Sirr.ms): Tape No. 2412 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. SD - 1 DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to advise the hon. members that a new two year collective agreement was tentatively reached yesterday afternoon in which government, on behalf of the Board of Governors of the College of Fisheries and the College of Fisheries Faculty Association. This group is comprised of approximately ninety academic, technical, and vocational instructors employed at the college.

Negotiations concluded yesterday afternoon with the signing of a me~orandum of agreement and the association will be recommending acceptance of the tentative settlement to its membership during a ratification vote which is expected to be held next week. Government is pleased with the tentative collective agreement, and looks forward to continuing the very favourable relationship which has existed with this group for the past number of years.

I would also like to inform hon. members that the tentative collective agreement reached earlier with the Newfoundland Association of Public Employees with respect to the Air Services group, which consists of government pilots, co-pilots and other technical and clerical support staff, has now been officially ratified by the membership. It is expected that the new agreement will be finalized and signed within the next few days. Thank you. 6501

June 12, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): has about one minute. MR. STIRLING: Tape No. 2412 SD - 2 The hon. Leader of the Opposition Mr. Speaker, I just want to make one comment. A new piece of information to me is that our water bomber pilots, based on that agreement we just talked .about being signed, our water bomber pilots are the only pilots in Canada who are not on a full time basis and have never been given a proper training. They have never been trained in a training school.

They are the only water bomber pilots in Canada to have to get all of their training by observation , and I have been told by a former water bomber pilot that the first couple of years that he was working as a water bomber on a part time basis, and they are only seasonally employed, that these people are the only ones in Canada, Mr. Speaker, the only water bomber pilots in Canada who have never been sent to a training school, a proper training school in the States. And we ·havethe only water bomber pilots in Canada who are employed on a seasonal basis. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in connection with the statement, I would hope that the President of ~he Treasury Board (Dr. Collins) can check into that matter to implement a proper training programme and have our water bomber pilots sent, during the Winter wh~n they could be employed full time 1 for proper training.secause I have been told by the people who were former water bomber pilots that we are suffering in Newfoundland, we have actually lost millions of dollars in forest fires - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: 6502

• l' June 12, 1981 Tape No.2413 EL - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. STIRLING: - forest fires that have gotten out of hand. I realize, Mr. Speaker, I do not have very much time and maybe we can discuss it later. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the han. the Leader of the Opposition may be unaware that the employment of the water bomber pilots is under the jurisdiction of the Depar~~ent of Transportation. Treasury Board is concerned with the collective agreement. He seems to be labouring, as be often does, under a misapprehension of how government works.

The water bomber pilots training and so on is the DeparL~ent of Transportation. ~- SPEAKER: If I may, for the benefit of hon. members to my right who seem to be querring this although there is no point of order, I will point out to hon. mewbers chat pro­ vision is there for members responding to staterrent to ask questions ar:.d seek clarification. I understood that is what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was doing. The provision is also there ~nd certainly the precedent is there for the minister making the state­ ment to respond to those querries. So it is certainl y permitted. MR. STIRLING: MR.

SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. the Mr. Speaker, I understood that you made a previous ruling in this sess. ·ion that although that provision was in the guidelL~es,after you looked up a precedent in this House that the ruling was that any comments made on a Ministerial Statement had to be made in one session rather than back and forth,and we have pres~~ed from that ruling that also 65G3

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2413 EL - 2 MR. STIRLING: the Ministerial Statement,since we cannot respond to questions,that the Ministerial Statement would be made at one time and we would make comments at one time and that that would clarify the matter. I do not need a ruling now, Mr. Speaker, but it would help if you could check that out just to clarify the matter. Because presumably if we do have a situation in which the minister is allowed to have a second time around,presumably those responding to Ministerial Statements would also have a second time around. DR. COLLINS: MR.

SPEAKER (_Simms} : the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order, the hon. My understanding, Mr.Speaker, is that in commenting on the statement the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was indicating he did not understand what the matter was all about-· at least what one aspect of the ~atter was all ~bout; he was labouring under a misapprehension-and ~y remarks were de­ signed to clarify in his mind that particular point. MR.

SPEAKER: Well, with respect to ~he point of order, I am just trying to find the precedent ruling which has been there in the practice, but I cannot find it. one. I can find MR. STIRLING: right now. MR. SPEAKER: There is no need to rule I would rather clarify it now so that we do not have to hang it up because I am familiar with it. There were two separa~e rulings. One is the situation where a minister may respond to clarifications or explanations or questions asked by a mero~er in responding to the statement. That is clearly permitted.

The other question is whether or not the member who responds to the statement is allowed to ask questions on subsequent occasions rather than on one occasion, and that is clearly not permitted. The ruling has been in the past 65iJ4

"" June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2414 ow - l MR. SPEAKER (Simms): mat the member in responding to a statement may do so on one occasion but,obviously 1 the minister who makes the statement has the opportunity to respond to those~ies and explanations. So I hope that that is clear. It can be done on one occasion by members to my ·r:tght, we will say, for argument's sake, but the minister can respond to any questions that are asked, but only on one occasion. MR. S. NEARY: then he cannot respond. MR. SPEAKER: If we do not ask any questions Exactly. MR. NEARY: M..'R.. SPEAKER: There were no questions asked on the Ministerial Staterent Well, again I do not want to belabour the ~oint,but my

interpretation of what the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) was doing in his response was that he was seeking some clarification or confirmation of information that he has received .. MR. S. NEARY: He made a few statements of fact. MR. SPEAKER: Well, we can go on all day like that but that is the way I interpreted it. MR. S. NEARY: That is right. MR. SPEAKER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. L. STIRLING: ?~y further statements? ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that we are into the forest fire season,and in view of the fact that the President of the Treasury Board (Dr.

Collins) says this agreement has now been signed and he then washes his hands of it and he tells me that this is now under the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe),who for some reason just does not appear in this House to answer any questions, therefore.in the absence of the Minister of Transportation 65\JS

. June 12, 1981 Tapa No. 2414 DW ~ 2 MR. L. STIRLING: and the Premier, I will have to ask the acting Premier - and I am not sure whether the. act£ng Premier is the President of the Council or the Minister of Mines and Energy, but I assume that it is the President of the Council - so the question I have for the acting Premier is why have our water bomber pilots not been given adequate training, have never been sent away for a training course and why are our water bomber pilots the only pilots in Canada who are on a part-time basis?

MR. !!o!ORGAN: We have the best water bomber pilots anywhere in Canada, the best qualified. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : . Order, please! I am not sure whom the hon. member directed his question to. MR. L. STIRLING: The acting Premier . MR. SPEAKER: I am not aware of any such position. So maybe you would direct it to a specific minister. !!1R. L. STIRLING: Well, because of the confu&ion about who is the acting Premier on the ather side, I will ask it of the President of the Council (Mr. MarshallL. MR. SPE.Al<ER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. NEARY: The real Tory. The only Tory left outside of Billie Browne. MR.

W. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, he knows how to butter me up. And I can tell him he is not going to get on the right side of me by throwing compliments at me today. He can try all he wants to. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. S. NEARY: Re is the only one. who can be a minister and practice law at the same time. MR. W. MARSHALL: The minister's law practice - I thank him for the free advertisement too, yes. 6506 ----,1:'1:

June 12, 1981 Ta?e No . 2 414 Dlf' - 3 SOME liON. MEMBERS : Oh, ob.! MR . S!'EAKER ( Simms ) : Order, please~ Order, pleas:e.~ MR . ~f . MARSHALL : And I do the best work i:n town at the ~neapest prices, like Mary 3rown's legs, Mr. Speake:!;", down in my law firm, the cheapest pri<;:es, the best work - MR. NEARY : (.Inaudi.blel . MR. ~f . MARSrt.:I.LL: Yes, and I thank the h.on.. member for that t0o , Hr . Speaker. It is very good of h.i.m to give. me :ree publ icity. NO\V" I will get back tc the. hen . Leader of the Opposition tMr. Stirling } and his ~uestion \V"hich was asked quite some time. ago. The. situation is·, Mr. Speaker, you know, his question has 65 07

June 12 , 1981 Tape No . 2415 Nt-1 - l 1·!R . M.l\ .HSH.=\LL: cert ain imputation s in it, you kno w as to wh.y tile - my und erstanding as to why ~~ e pilo~s could not get traini~g and what have you and wily they we re not tr ained . Mr . Sp ea ker, in an s.wer to that I can say we are very prouc of the sea£ : we nave on hand, the water bomber pilots . SOME 50N . MEMBErtS : n:ear, hear ! ~ MR . 1·!.lL~EALL : It is a fact, Mr. Spea~e r , thae last - :4R • :-IEF- -~ : (~audible) :lying tNo pia~es ac th e same time . '1..~ .

MARSHALL : - it is a fa ct that last yea~ :or i~ stance,that we - A..'l HON • ~-!EMBER: tihac a seazf . whac a sta=:. MR '. Mi\R SHALL : - •..;e loaned several of che planes - SOME SON . MEl'I.BERS : Oh, oh! 11..~ • 5 PE;u<ER (Simm

s) Orcer, pleas e! Th e hon . Pr es iden~ of th e Council . MR. ~R.UL : La st year, Mr . Speaker , we loaned , I believe ,several o: the bombers to other provinces which were having difficulty and these people are ski:led pilots, c~ey are well regarded pilot s all chroug hout Canada and we are very proud . So I do not know where che hon . gentleman gees c~e idea ~~at our pilots are inf er ior. T~ey are noc inferior . They are amongst ~he best pilots in Canada . They are doi~g a marvellous job and we are very proud of them . 1\'e are very proud ~hat~~ put chem tose~~er . SOME :!ON . :>reMBERS : gear, hear! ~4R . STIRLING: .ll. su?plemen-r.ary, )1r. Speaker. 6508 ---- ...,.

June 12, 19 .81 M..'r{. S?EA..':GR (Simms ) : Leader of the OppositLoa . :1R. STIRLING : '!'ape No. 2415 NM - 2 A suppleme.•tary, the hon . Mr . Speaker, ~~ae is typical of the way that this government twists ~~gs around. It is :or that very purpose, Mr . Speak .er, th at 1:hey are th.e best ?ilot s i.n Canada - t~ .ey are the best - but they themselves are not being treated fairly . They nave not been given full time status . They are the lowest paid pilots in c~~ada . And it is only their dedication, ~tr . Speaker, 1:h.ere is only this dedicaeion ~t enables ~,e pilots to concinue . DR .

COLL.DIS: Are you sayinq (L~audiblel . MR . SPE~.IG:R: Orde r, plea se~ 11R. ~EAR Y: They t.rere !orced to accept it.- ~L~. S'!'IRL:DiG : !'low, Mr. Speaker - ::>R. COLLINS: (Inau dible J pilots . :1..~. SPEA.. -:{E:R: Order! MR . STIRLING: - the question has not been answered. The ques1:~on is, these pilots,~ho .are sel: taught, and tee best pilots i~ Canada, how come, ~tr. Speaker - S011E RON . ME:·!BERS : Oh, oh ! MR . S PEAi<ER : Order ! MR . STIRLING : - how come this government has not: :nace ~e .r.t :ull ti:ne ar.d how come this c;ove :-~e.'lt has ~ot: - SOME ~ON . ~M~ERS: Order, please! )1R .

S?EJ-\.KER : Order, please! ~'r{. STIRLING : - sent these pilots :o a :ull t.i;ne training co~.:rse? SOME !iON . :-!EMBERS: Oh , oh.! 6509

June 12, 19 .81 Tape No . 2415 NM - 3 MR. SPEAKER (SL~s ) : Order, please! r must ask hon. members to :::-estrain t:.hemsel ves. It is very earl!' in clle morning and t:he Chair is having difficulty neari:lg what is going on. MR. MORGrlN: MR . SPEAKER: Opposition . MR . STIRLING: (Inaudibl e l .. The hon. Leace= of t:"le Mr. Speaker, the. .!>li.:"lister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan) is so upset with his colleague., the ~tinister of Cultare, Recreacion and You~ (Mr .. ~drews) because of a real foul up in Bonavista Sou~ that ne is MR . SPE.:u<ER: MR . S'!'TIU....'"NG: smarting . MR.

SP!::AKER: Opposition has a question? MR . STIRLING: MR . SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: M..~ . SPEAKER: 11R . STIRLING: Order, please! Order, please! - so up set ~s mo~ ~ g he is ~he hor. . :eader of the Yes, Mr. Spea~. Then ask. t.he ques.:.:.on. ! have asked ~~e ~~estion. Okay .

I have asked .:he question and the question is wit.h t.hese pilot s - \'le have now got the best group of ?ilots in Canada ~ to keep them workL"lg with us,I am asking again the question, why is it: that they have not been given full time status and why is it tbat they have not been sent to the proper trainL,g courses that are available which ~:he pilots cllemselves have requested? 6510

June 12,1981 MR . lvARREN: MR. NEP..RY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Council. MR. MARSHALL: Tape No. 2416 Now there you go. During the Wintertime. AH-1 The hon. the President of the Mr. Speaker, I c~ only say that the pilots are employed in accordance with the manner in which this Province can afford with respect to the capacity of this Province to pay. It is trying to be fair with all of its a~ployees in all branches of the service. It has attempted to do it and we are certainly thankful that the pilots in their negotiations with the Treasury Board have seen able to see that this Province has certain limited resources.

We would like to pay everybody more. We would like to be able to expand, Mr. Speake·r, very, very, much their conditions of employrnent,but all of this costs money. The fact of the matter is , Mr.Soeaker, as I reiterate again, that these pilots have signed a collective agreement now and they are satisfied with their terms of employment for the next little while.

We are delighted that they have come to this agreement and I reiterate once again that I am glad that the Leader of the Opposition now has conceded the fact , instead of getting up and lambasting the pilots,has now conceded that they are indeed amongst the finest in Canada and I am glad that ~e,as well as us, are very proud of the people that we have who are piloting these water bombers. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ Han. members should not stand until the other member has sat down. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of - the non-existent ~inister of Fisheries (Mr.Yiorcran). Mr. Etchegary vesterdav - ~1R. r~ORGJ'.N: ~ou cannot see me over here this morning? SOME HON. M~~BERS: on, on~ MR. NE.i'>.RY: Mr. Gus Etchegary, who heads up 6511

June 12,1981 Tape No . 2416 AH -2 ~!R . NEARY : the biggest fish proces sing company in this ?rovince,and President of the Fisheries Council of CanaC.a~told a big St. John 's meeting yesterday tha~ the fishery in this Province is in an incredible mess and the ita~s to which he referred fall under provincial jurisdiction . ~1R . HANCOC;<: )ffi • ~V..RY : Is that a surprise? No\.,r t.,rould the hoo. non -ex is tent Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) care to tell the House i: the stata~ents by ~ - Etchegary on behalf of the !ishing industry in thi s Province are corre ct or 1vas Mr .

Etchegary merely pavi:tg the t.,ray I merely trying to set uo a smoke · screen fo r upcoming negotiations with the flshermen's Un~on? ~ - 5P~~~(S~~s): The hon. the M~iscer o£ Fisheries. M..~ . MORGll>.N : First of all, ~ - Speaker, ! am very axiscent t~is morning and : was last evening i:t aonavista - SOME HON -~'1BERS : Hear 1 hear~ MR . ~~\ORGAN : - lvhere ! received lots of comments 6512

June 12, 1981 Tape 241"7 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: on the rather ridiculous fools they made of themselves, two certain members of the Opposition, approximately a month ago. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. STIRLING: I nope the minister (inaudible) MR. MORGAN: I fully concur, Mr. Speaker - if I could get the member for Bonavista North (Mr.Stirling) for a short, temporary period of time to keep quiet. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I read this morning with interest the statements, in fact, if my colleague would allow me, that'The fishery's in~ mess- Etchegary'.

It goes on, to read the full story, over on Page 24, pointing out and referring to federal government policies, how they are affecting the fisheries from coast to coast in Canada. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MORGAN: That is right, this morning. Gus Etchegary was talking about and referring to fisheries all across Canada, as D~e new Fisheries Council of Canada president. He referred, Mr.

Speaker, to a situation where,over the last number of years, as a result of federal government policies, federal government programmes over the last three or four years have caused chaos in the fisheries and it is right now in an awful, terrible mess. And that is the reason why Premier Peckford is saying,and we are saying, 'Do not keep all of that total control you have over the fishing industry. If you cannot honour your responsibility and resolve the problems on federal jurisdiction, pass some jurisdiction over to us, give us some jurisdiction over the fisheries. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 6 51 3

June 12, 1981 Tape 2417 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: If not, Mr. Speaker, resolve the mess the fishery is in; resolve the licencing issue, resolve the trading away of raw resource to foreign countries; resolve and help the market situation. MR. POWER: The income tax problem. ~.R. MORGAN: And resolve the income tax problem . MR. NEARY: Do not forget that one. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, there is a major problem with the fisheries. Mr. Etchegary, unfortunately, could not refer to all of the problems.

Right now today there are fishermen forced to go on welfare in Newfoundland, as of right now, today, fishermen forced to go on welfare by means of Revenue Canada placing them there. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. POWER: That is right. That is exactly right. MR. MORGAN: For example, a fisherman with eight in family was left the last two weeks - eight in family - with only $70 to live on because the rest was taken by Revenue Canada. Lots of problems in fisheries! MR. PO\"'ER: That is right. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

MORGAN: That is the kind of problem we have, and that is the kind of example that is showing the mess we have today in our fishing industry. Mr. Speaker, I concur with Mr. Etchegary. I think maybe it is a time for all concerned - this Province is doing it - sitting down with all concerned, the union, the fishermen, the companies, confined to our own Province. But it is time :or Ottawa to come down here to take a look at the fishing industry. The union has been after Mr. LeBlanc to come down, the Fish Trades asked him to come down; final ly, he is corning down next week. Hopefully, Mr.

Speaker, he will recognize 6 51 4

June 12, 1981 Tape 2417 EC - 3 MR. MORGAN: and realize where his policies and his programmes are causing chaos and a mess in the 6 51 5

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2418 SD - l MR. MORGAN: fisheries and he will change some of these policies and if he cannot change them to the satisfaction of the fishing industry , pass over jurisdiction to us. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member for Mr. Speaker, obviously the hon. gentleman thinks that his portfolio is just to continuously attack Ottawa and develop no policies of his own because there is no provincial fishery policy. And if the hon. gentleman read the statement that Mr.

Etchegary made 1 and if he does not know it and he does not realize it, well then he does not deserve to be Minister of c'isheries. But Mr. Etchegary said that the principle problem that is causing the incredible mess in the fishing industry at the moment,that may cause some companies to go bankrupt 1 falls under provincial jurisdiction, namely, the marketing of the fish. That is a provincial matter. MR. MORGAL'<: MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Corporation to take care - MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Provincial? I beg your parnon? Come on, boy ~ Do not be so naive~ Mr.

Speaker, the federal government - Order, please! - established the Canadian Saltfish !·'7ho is the spokesman on Fisheries over there? Mr. Speaker, if I might? Order, please! The Canadian government set up the Canad ian Saltfish Corporation to market salt fish and the provincial government, if they wanted to, could set up a 6 51 6

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2418 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: provincial marketing board to market the other produce of the sea in this Province. And there is the problem. Mr. Etchegary says it is a provincial matter. It is a provincial problem that this government has not lifted a finger to try to solve the marketing of the fresh fish in this Province. That is the problem. Now if the minister does not recognize that that is a provincial problem, then the Premier had better replace him as quickly as possible. MR. SPEAKER (Simms ·) : Order, please~ MR. NEARY: ~low would the hon. gentleman care to comment on that? MR.

SPEAKER: The h.on. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAJ.'l: Indeed so, Mr. Speaker 1 indeed so I care to comment on that. So the non. gentleman is of the opinion the provincial government is responsible for the marketing of fish in world markets. Well, I would say, fortunately for the Opposition that member is not the spokesman on fisheries matters because he would further confuse the situation today with regard to federal policies. The marketing of fish is primari ly the responsibility of the private sector, agreed, not any government - the private sector.

The large companies like, for example, Fishery nroducts, Nickersons, National Sea and the Lake Group, these four major players are fairly heavy and very aggressive in the market place in developing new markets in Europe, new markets in the Far East, to find alternate markets from the US market which we are too dependent on, We have to find alternate markets because,as Mr. Etchegary mentioned yesterday,because of the increased catching effort in the US. There are no restrictions in the US today of who can go fishing.

Fishermen in the US, for example, the Eastern Seaboar d of the US are not denied the right to fish as they are in Newfoundland. You are denied the right to go fishing today if you want to go fishing; it is no longer there. 6 51 7

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2418 SD - 3 MR. MORGA.!'<: There are no restrictions in the USA and because there are no restrictions there will be increased number of fishermen, increased number of boats, increased harvesting capacity. As a result of that. that fish will go into their Ow""Tl :narket in the US. So the more fish goes into the US market; obviously, the. less fish that we can sell to 6 5 'i 8

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2419 EL - 1 MR. MORGAN: the same market from Canada. So, the four major players in the Atlantic fishery today are agressive in Europe, in the European Economic Community. They are agressive in the Far East in develop- ing markets. The Federal Government has a very clear responsibility tnrough Industry, Trade and Commerce, to work in co-ordination V~ith the trade to help develop markets. And unfortunately, Industry, Trade and Commerce chooses to trade away raw resource, to trade away raw resource 1like we saw a few days ago, the trading away of 17,000 metric tons of squid.

They are talking now about trading away a further 15,000 metric tons ofNortherncod to the European economic community. And we are saying, no, do not trade away raw resource. Now, that is the way in which In­ dustry, Trade andCommerceis working now to help the fishery. It is not helping. What they should be doing is developing agressive marketing programmes at the Federal level. The same kind of market­ ing programmes for example, Mr. Speaker, that the Nickerson Company and ourselves, the Newfoundland Government 1will be embarking on within the next month. This was the new announcement. H.B.

Nick­ erson and Sons, one of the best companies, I guess in dtlantic Canada, in the marketplace- '1R. HOLLETT: He has his press release in his pocket. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. MORGAN: ~x. Speaker, in the marketplace, the most aggressive - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: -Mr. Speaker, the most agressive company in the marketplace. We had our disagreements, sure, over the processing of fish but we are now combining our efforts, Mr.

Speaker, with that company to help find markets; 'He are going to work together, industry and government .. 6519

., June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2419 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! I want to make a comment. There are a lot of members who want to ask questions. Answers should be as brief as possible. I realize the question asked was would the minisi-er care to comment,and obviously that could be broad and long. So I bring that to the attention of all han. members. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. Mr. Speaker, Mr.

Etchegary also mentioned the matter of confrontation politics and I do not believe that can be blamed on the Government of Canada,Industry, Trade and Commerce or the Government of Canada. The confrontation that Mr. Etchegary is referring to is the confrontation politics of this government. As far as the Fishermen's Union in concerned and the fishing industry.they have no friends. They have made enemies out of everybody. It is the confrontation of the minister that Mr. Etchegary is talking about. And also as far as the 17,000 metric tons of squid is concerned, that is exactly the same as last year. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Your Honour has made an observation with respect to the answers given by the han. the minister , and the han. member for LaPoile (S.Nearyl, Mr. Speaker, on the other side of the coin is doing exactly tha same thing. He is making a speech. It is a supplementary question. If he wishes to ask a question he should ask it and the

preamble should be much briefer than the hon. gentleman has so far indicated. MR. SPEAKER: Well, it is quite a legitimate point of order. I was about to call the member to order myself because it appeared to me again that he was debating the answer; ~hich reall y 6520

June 12, l98l Tape No. 2419 EL - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): is not the purpose of Questio~ Period. Perhaps he could ask the question. MR. NEARY: Two question in one, Mr. Speaker. 6521 .,,

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2420 DW - l MR. S. NEARY: Would the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) tell the House whether the Japanese quota on squid is not precisely and exactly the same as it was last year - MR. HOLLETT: before that. MR. S. NEARY: -~d the year before and the year - and the year before that. That is my number one question.

My number two question is would the hon. gentleman not agree that it is the responsibility of the provincial government,if the mar~eting by the private companies is failing, that they have failed to explore new markets 1if it is not the responsibility of the provincial government to assist in marketing the produce of the sea in this Province? MR. HANCOCK: If not, what have we got a Minister of Fisheries for? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. J. MORGAN: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, it is a three part question.

The first part regarding the deal made recently between Canada and Japan,that is true,it is the same as last year. But last year, what happened last year? The prices paid to our fisherman for squid throughout the Province went down to half what it was in 1979. Why? Because 19,000 metric tons last year was taken by the Japanese :ro~ 0ur waters by a deal made between Canada and Japan. And that is the reason why fishermen got half their price for the squid species last year from what they had the year before. Becaus~. Mr.

Speaker, the main reason being Canada did not, and, I repeat 1 did not , in return for allowing the Japanese to take these metric tons of fish from our waters, did not negotiate an import quota for fish species from our country. If they were to negotiate an import quota,that Japan would take so much fish species from our Province or from all Canada, if they had done that last year, Mr. Speaker - 6522

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2420 DW - 2 MR. NEARY: I am not talking about last year, I am talking about this year. HR. MORGAN: How can I answer, Mr. Speaker? MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. J. MORGAN: You cannot answer the question. Order, please~ Order, please~ Mr. Speaker, last there was no import quota and fisherman suffered by it, fishermen are suffering the conseauences of trade policies of the federal government which is trading off a raw resource for other material in our country. And what is happening?

They are trading off a raw resource which is damaging and having ~ery serious consequences onour fishery. SOME HON. MEMBERS: M.."-. L . BARRY: foundlanders ~ MR. SPEAKER: !:A.R. J. MORGAN: Oh, oh! Anti-Newfoundlanders! Anti- New- Order, please! Because fisherman again this year, Mr. Speaker, will only get half the price they received in 1979 because of the trade off poiicies of tne federal qovern­ ment in Ottawa, trading off our raw resource. of the question - MR. STIRLING AN HON. MEMBER: MR. J. MORGAN: Now, :··r. Speaker, the second part That is a lie. Untrue, untrue! Mr.

Speaker, I happened to near a comment, 'That is a lie'. That is unparliamentary. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. J. MORGAN: Now, Mr. Speaker, on to the second part of the question. Regarding confrontation, if it means when I stand to defend fishermen and fisheries in this Province for the benefit of our Province of Newfoundland, it will be confrontation. MR. S . NE_ll_py · own lack of policy. You are trying to ~o v er up for your It is a red herring. 6523

June 12, 1981 Tape No . 2420 Dt\1 - J MR. J . MORGtl.N: .~d as for working with the union, the Fishermen 's Union can verify we meet on a regular basis. We are working che~~ to cheek, shoulder to shou lder, hand in hand, a_r:n in arm we are working together, the Fishermen's Unio n ana this governm ent. The Fish Trade s Associati0n will confirm as well, we meet on a regular basiswlt~ the ::ish Trades -'.ssociation. Also we meet with the Independent fl.ssociation of our ProvL"'lce of all the indepen ­ dent fish plants in the Province on a regular basis. Tha1: is the way we work; we work in co-ordination with 6524

June 12,1981 Tape No. 2421 AH-1 MR.MORGAN: all concerned, we work in co-operation.But when there are policies up there in uncle Ottawa which are going to effect Newfoundland,we are going to stand up and fight against the~. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR.FLIGHT: Hear, hear~ The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans . You talk about silly . Order, please~ The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. I have a question , Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of Forestry. Just as a short

preamble, Mr. Speaker, the minister knows that the Buchans-Burgeo road over the years has been a concept that has been put forward by knowledgeable people in transoortation and this administration refus~to accept the concept. Now when Price (Nfld.l acquired linerboard,it was also a concept then and part of their plan that that road would be hooked up in order for Price (NfldJ to move wood West from their holdings at the head of Indian Lake to Stephenville,and Price (Nfld.) intends to build that road.

So I would ask the minister now if Price (NfldJ to this point in time has requested from government, from Cabinet,a permit to finish the Buchans-Burgeo road, to build the ten or twelve miles that will allow them to move their wood West? Has the company to this point in time made that request of the Premier, the Cabinet or any minister of government? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I am surprised that the member has not asked for an environmental study before we would come with the road seeing he is so interested in the environment.

SOME HON .11EMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. STIRLING: You are sounding like Barry now-. 6525

June 12,1981 MR. POWER: coach. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. POWER: Tape No. 2421 AH-2 That is my coach. That is my Oh, oh! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, as it relates to the mova~ent of wood West on that road to the Stephenville mill, certainly we have agreed with Abitibi-Price that as long as it is in their harvesting operations to do so that we will certainly agree with them in any road network that they want to do. It is not, as the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) has announced many times, not a priority for a second Trans-Canada system in Newfoundlano. ~o this date I am not absolutely sure whether Abitibi has requested use or development of that road. hut I will be glad to find out if a request has come intothe resource road part of my department 1 but I am not really sure if it has or not. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, on the same subject, and I would direct the supplementary to the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe), and ask the minister specifically if Price (Nfld.) has requested permission, a permit to build that access road, what in their opinion lvould be a wood's access road to make L~e connection between the present existing road that is there and the Burgee road? LTJ. order to move their wood West has Price (Nfld.) enquired for a permit? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DAWE: The hon. Minister of Transportation . As far as I know, Mr. Speaker, that request has not been made to my depar~~ent. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. 6526

.., Ju.'1e 12,1981 Tape No . 2421 AH -3 M_q . SPEAKER (SUnms ): A final suppla~ent~ .ry. The hon. member ::or ~·Hndsor -Suchans. ~1R. FLIGF.T: well, Mr . Speaker, on the basis t~at obviously the lir.erboard mi~l will come onstream ·.;ery shortly, and Price (Nfldl must be making pJ.ans to move ,.,.ood West - it .Ls public kno w.J.edge tnat with ~he acquisition of the LL~erboard mil.!. they intended to move wood West and 1ntended to use that road and a lot of people sal<~ that as the means 6527

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2422 NM - 1 MR. FLIGHT: that the road would be complete and eventually carrying the kind of traffic that would help the whole Central ~Tewfoundland area, and that all the people in Central Newfoundland, and all of Newfoundland, who are knowlec'.ceable about roads, believe should be built. So I would ask the minister, has there been any negotiations with Price (Nfld.)? Has any special conditions been placed on the company inasfar as their building that road?

If a permit is issued for Price (Nfld.) with their own money to complete that road, will there be any special conditions placed on the building of that road? MR. SPEAKER (Simms} The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: If I understand that correctly, Mr.

Speaker, any time there is. road construction t:1.ere are certain obligations on the people who are building that road, whether the Department of Transportation or anyone else, and depending upon where it is, environmental concerns, actual construction and the class of the road and so on, would have to be addressed depending upon what type of road they are actually requesting to build. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: MR. WARREN : MR . SPEAKER: ~- FLIGHT: A final supplementary. The hon. menber for Torngat Mountains. I yield, !1r. Speaker .

The hon.rnember yields for a final s~pplementary from t~e ~on. ~ry~r for Windsor-Buchans. Mr. Speaker, this question again is directed to the Minister of Transportation. He indicated earlier in answering questions that he is not aware t~at therP. bas been an official request for the Price (Nfld.), an official request for a permit to build that road. So I would ask him this, has there been any negotiations- assuming there has not been an official request, and that is what the minister 6528

June 12, 1981 . Tape No. 2422 NM - 2 MR. FLIGHT: said, he is on record as saying there is no official request - MR. DAWE: That I am aware of . . 'MR. FLIGHT: - that he is aware of,have there been any negotiations at this point in time with regard tc that road? Has Price (Nfld.) indicated a desire, or a n.eed, to complete that road so they can move the wood West to the linerboard mill? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. DAWE: MR. SPEAKER: Mountains. The hon. Minister of Transportation. No, Mr. Speaker, not to my knowledge. The hon. member for Torngat MR. FLIGHT: The Hansard my certainly come back t-.n h;nmt-. vn11 . MR.

WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs . Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister cf Municipal Affairs whether the request from the Nain Town Council on February 5th., where they indicated they were willing to pay back $170,000 towards the loan, has this request been accepted by the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS • NEWHOOK: Mr.

Speaker, a request such as the hon. member has outlined, that has to be approved by Cabinet and I can assure him that we have prepared a paper and it has been forwarded to Cabinet and I understand now it has been reviewed with regard to the financing of it and it could be contingent on the signing of the native agreement. I am not quite sure about that, but it is being reviewed by Treasury Board. MR. WARREN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 6529

June 12, 19.81 MR. SPl"~R ( SimmsJ : MountaLns, a supplementary . MR. w""AR..~N : Tape No~ 2422 NM - 3 The hen.. 'lnember for Torngat Mr • Speaker , I would ask. the. minister a supplementary question , seeing the. Minister of Finan<::e (Dr . Collins) is not ih his seat. Knowing that ti>.Ls has been outstanding since February 5th . , I under s tand Cabir..et meets at least once a 1veek, and

whereas i.t is so important, Mr . Speaker, and the construction season is so short, is the minister doing everything in 6530

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2423 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: her power to convince her Cabinet colleagues that this project should be okayed as soon as possible so that construction can get underway before the season comes to a halt? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK : Yes, I have followed it up, Mr . Speaker, but I understand now that there is probably some delay because of the signing of the native agreement. Now, I guess, it is under that agreement that the Council of Nain will get the funding to pay its share under that agreement, the $17Q,QOO a year.

I can only say that my department has made the recommendation and it has to be dealt with by Treasury Board and in Cabinet. MR. WARREN: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: We have about thirty seconds for a question and answer . The hon. member for Torngat Mountains on a supplementary. MR. WARREN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). Now knowing that the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) said that that has passed through her department, can the Minister of Finance advise the hon.

House why the Treasury Board is holding up this request for the Nain Town Council? Why? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance has about fifteen seconds. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I am afraid I 11'las not here for the beginning of that. I had to drop out there just for a moment. But my understanding, if I have the right subject matter, my understanding is that this is contingent upon a native people's agreement being concluded and then subsequent to that the priorities set within that. We are expecting to get further information along that matter 6531

June 12, 1981 Tap e N o. 2423 SD - 2 DR. COLLINGS: and when we do receive it then it will be considered by Treasury Board. It has not been received yet. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL : Order, please! Time for Oral Questions has expired . NOTICES OF MOTION The han. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of Notices of Motion pertaining to Select Committees to be established by the House. First, I give notice of motion that:

BE IT RESOLVED that a Select Committee of this hon. House be appointed to inquire into, hear evidence upon and make recommendations relating to the suitability for introduction by government into this hon. Rouse of the follo~oring draft legislation: "An Act Respecting Elections, Controverted Elections And Electio~ Financing For Member Of the House Of Assembly", either in the form as shall be set forth and the draft legislation to be filed by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) with the Chairman of the Committee or with such alterations, modifications or additions as the said committee shall deem fit.

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Select Committee have power to sit at all times whether or not the House is in session, adjourned or prorogued, ~nd in relation to the matters to them referred,the power to send for persons, papers and records. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is a committee that was announced in the Throne Speech and if the hon. mambers would agree to pass this now I could then propose the complement of the co~~ittee which has been agreed by the caucuses. M.~. SPEAKER: SOME HON. ~MEERS : Agreed? Agreed . 6532

June 12, 1981 ~~. SPEAKE~ (Simms) : MR . M..=lRSH.lU.L : :-1R . SPEAKE~ : SOME HON • ME11BERS : MR. SPEAKER: Tape No . 2423 so - 3 It is agreed. Agreed, we now ?ass the motion. Those in favour, 'Aye' . 'Aye' . Contrary. Carried. Tbe hon. Presidenc of the Council . MR . MARSHALL : Now, Mr . Speaker, I then propose that the =allowing constitute the Elections 6533 ~ (

June 12, 1981 Tape 2424 EC - 1 MR. MARSliALL : Select Committee: the hon. the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter ) , the hon. the member for St. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas), the hon. the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson), the hon. the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) and the hon. the .member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) . be put·and passed. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER ( S imrns) : Opposition. MR. STIRLING: I would ask that that motion Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Just speaking to that, Mr. Spe~~er.

On this side of the House we regard this whole subject of the election expenses as being a very irnporta .nt one. We have had it as policy on this side of the House for a long time. It is one of the areas, Mr. Speaker, in which this Province is sadly behind both the federal government and other provinces. It is a piece of legislation that should have been brought in 1 and was promised,before the last election. And I hope, Mr. Speaker, that this Select Committee can start to work immediately.

We are looking forward to the Select Committee, members from our side of the House, working very closely with the Select Committee members on the other side and I very seriously believe that they will turn out, if their terms of reference are broad enough, what will truly be a piece of legislation that can be agreed to by all sides of this House as a land­ mark piece of legislation. We are so far behind the other provinces as far as this is concerned that we should be in a position to learn from their mistakes and to bring 6534

June 12, 1981 Tape 2424 EC - 2 MR. STIRLING: forward a model piece of legislation. I have great confidence in the members of that Committee and we look forward on this side to the report and look forward to having that legislation introduced in this House and passed in this House before the next election. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) You have heard the motion. Those in favour, 'Aye', contrary, 'Nay', carried. MR. MARSHALL : MR. SPEAKER: Council. Further notices of motion? Mr. Speaker. The hon. the President of the MR . MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I give notice of motion of the following r.esolution:

BE IT RESOLVED that a Select Committee of this hon. House be appointed to inquire into, hear evidence upon and make recommenda­ tions relating to the suitability for introduct{on by government into this hon.

House of the following draft legislation: "An Act To Incorporate The Certified General Accountants' Association in Newfoundland;' and (b) "An Act To Revise And Reform The Law Respecting Corporations"including"An Act To Consolidate, Revise And Reform The Law In Respect Of Partnerships" and "An Act To Reduce Public Confusion And Inconvenience In The Use Of Business Names In The Province" either in the form which shall be set forth in the draft legislation to be filed by the Minister of Justice with the Chairman of the Committee or with such alternations, modifications or additions as the Committee shall deem fit; BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Select Committee have power to sit at all times 1..rhether or not the House is in session, adjourned or prorogued and in relation to 6535

June 12 ,.1981 Tape 2424 EC - 3 MR . .MARSHALL: the matters to ~~em referred, the power to send for persons, papers and records. I similarly move, Mr. Speaker, ·that t:his motion be passed. MR . S?EAKER (Simms) : Is it agreed? SOME HON . MEMBERS: Agreed . MR . SPEAKER : You have heard the mocion . Those in favour, 1 Aye 1 , cont .rary, 1 Nay 1 , carried . MR . MARSHALL: Coincidental upon that then, Mr. Speake r, I move that the fol~owing constitute 6536

.n- June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2425 EL - 1 MR. MARSHALL: move that the following constitute the complement of that select committee to inquire into the in­ corporation of the CGA's and the establishment of the New Com­ panies Act. The bon. the members for Kilbride (R.Alyward), the bon. the member for St. John's West (H. Barrett), the bon. the member for Conception Bay South (J. Butt), the bon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (E. Roberts) and the bon. the member for Terra Nova (T.Lush). MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The bon. the Leader of the Opp- osition. MR. STIRLING: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, in supporting the motion, Mr.Speaker, these two ita~s which have been referred to the select committee are again two important items. One, the Companies Act has been an old act that bas been kicked around here for a long time. There have been many attempts to do something with it. I hope with the appointment of this select committee that the Companies Act can be brought into line with other acts in other parts of Canada.

We . have seen some of the time of th£s House taken in debat£ng some of the things that can be more pro­ perly handled by the Oompanies ~ct,~nd as far as the investigation of the CGA's request, there is likely to be a very large lobby against that and I agree with the government's approach of appoL~t­ ing a select committee to study into that. And we hope again, using the process of select committees,we wi~l be able to get the politics taken out of these important issues and we would like to see select committees on a lot of other matters, Mr.

Speaker.But 1ve have no hesi­ tation in supporting and believe that this select committee will do a good job in this matter as well. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The bon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Referring to the remarks made by the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker, I just want to say that the 6537

Jun€ 12, 1981 Tape No. 2425 -EL - 2 MR. MARSHALL: appointment of the select committees is a part of the policy of this government to involve members in a much greater degree than they have been in the past and also this procedure of appointing select committees in both instances will enable a smaller complement of this House to get together and in- quire as to the opinions of people and to consider the various positions taken by people in respect to all of the matter of the select committees.

So, I certainly concur with the remarks fflade by the Leader of the Oppositon and would point out that it is part of the ongoing process of the government to attempt to bring a meaningful legislation and at the same time make this House of Assembly more meaningful. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): in favour,aye? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: You have heard the motion. Those Ave. Contrary, nay? Carried. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE F~.S BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MS. VERGE : Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table the answer to question no. 40 on the Order Paper posed by the member for LaPoile (.S.Neary) . ORDERS OF THE DAY On motion, that the House resolve itself into Corrmittee of the Whole to consider certain bills. ~·1r. Speaker left the Chair. 6538

"'' June 12,1981 Tape No. 2426 AH-1 MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): Order, please~ Bill No. 8 !l "An Act To AlT"''n<'l ThF> Landlord And Tenant (Residential Tenancies) Act, 1973 (No.2)." MR. OTTENHEI~1ER: MR. CHAIRMAN : MR. OTTENHEIMER: Shall Clause 1 carry? Mr. Chaiman. The hon. the Minister of Justice. Just briefly on this clause-and what I say here applies to Clause 2,4,5 and 6 as well- there was some discussion yesterday, the hon. member for the Straits of Bell Isle (Mr.

Roberts) raising some question with respect to the effect of the Supreme Court of Canada decision on the continued capacity of Residential Tenancies Boards to in fact set rents.

And we have fur~~er looked into it and government's policy here, of course, is to transfer to the District Courts what is required to be transferred by that decision,but not to transfer what is not required because the more that can be kept in the Residential Tenancies Board obviously the hetter it is for tenants because the procedures there obviously less complex, less cumbersome, etc., and it is our opinion - nobody knows what the Supreme Court obviously can decide in the future· ·'but it is our opinion that if the Residential Tenancies Board ~ontinue to have authority in the area of rent settinq. MR.

STIRLING: made about Clause 3. MR. CHAIRMAN: ~1R . OTTENHEIZ..IER: MR. STIRLING: MR. OTTENHEIMER : The same suggestion miqht be The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. on·clause 3. I want to speak on that. You will wait until you get to that? Yes. It was on that clause. On motion, Clauses l and 2 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause 3 carry? The hon. the Minister of Justice. 6539

r. June 12,1981 Tape No. 2426 AH - 2 MR. OTTENh"EIHER: Mr. Chairman, the main discussion yesterday with respect to Clause 3 dealt with Subsections (a} and (

b) under t8). And (S}.says, "In this

section "group eviction" means"and then there is (

a) and (

b) and it was centered in on · (a) 0 The suggestion of the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) was that in Cal we delete- in other words the

section which no\" reads , and this is de:ining what group ev~ction means, now reads, " the circumstances where fifty per cent or :nore of the tenants of a landlord receive notices to quit their residential pre.'!lises," and he suggested it stop there 0 As it ~GW reads it goes on, "or the landlord refuses to ::-ene•.-1 their leases at or about the same time .'' There •..;as no dif:erence of opinion with respect to (b), There Nas no difference of opinion with respect to (b) . ~'le have certa~nly carefully considered ~~e remarks of che Opposition as we att~~pt always to do when their ::-emarks, you know - th~s was not a par~isan or a political tlS40

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2427 NM - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: matter, but,you know,a matter of some concern, and there there is a legitimate and honest difference of opinion. I think the han. gentleman opposite felt, was of the opinion - I do not like paraphasing somebody because you can obviously do it, you know, improperly-but I think it is fair to say that that was an unnecessary or an unwarranted, whichever you want to call it, intrusion into the rights to contract. I think that probably would be a fair description of his views on it.

We are of the opinion - and obviously it is a limitation on right to contract, obviously it is that - but I guess the difference of opinion is that we do not feel it is unwarranted. We think that that additional protection has social value.

Because what it does, it will define as a group eviction, not only where fifty per cent - and we are talking about 50 per cent - or more of tenants of landlords receive notices to quit, but also where - and that fifty per cent governs obviously what comes after or as well-"or the landlord refuses to renew their leases at or about their same time." So the government position is that obviously we recognize that there is a limitation of the right to contract there. So the choice comes down to, you know, do we refuse to have this limitation on the right to contract, or do we give that additional protection?

And we feel that where fifty per cent or more receive - where in the case of fifty per cent or more,the landlord refuses to renew thier leases,unless it is in conditions allowable under the act, that that additional protection is necessary and beneficial. It is an honest difference of opinion. We have not certainly dismissed the views of hon. 6541

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2427 NM - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: members opposite but that is the position that we have -that that is our position, government's position. On motion, clauses (3) through (8) , carried. A bill, "An A.ct 'T:'o Amend ·rhe Lanc11ord And Tenant (Residential Tenancies) Act, ln3 lNo. 2) ". (Bill No. 88) Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. MR. MARSHALL: Order 4, Bill No. 3. Bill No. 3. A bill, "An Act Respecting The Freedom Of Information." (Bill No. 3) MR . OTTENHEIMER : amendments there. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) MR. OTTENHEIMER: Right.

I do have a couple of The hon. Minister of Justice. And I am just looking for them. I do not want you to pass the

section before I get to it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Bill No. 3. MR. MARSHALL : MR. OTTENHEIMER: (9) carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Clause 25 2(

b) is the first one . Okay. Fine. On motion, clause.s (1) through Clause 10, the hon. Minister of Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have an amendment here and one further one. The amendment with respect to clause (10); hon. members will see clause (10) . it says, "Notwithstanding," so and so "a person shall not be permitted access to personal information repecting an identifiable individual including, without restricting the generality of the foregoing " -this is a

section which exempts the kind of personal information, like a person's medical record, employment, history, race, ethnic origin, religion, marital status, finger prints, etc., personal views, correspondence, that type of thing. 6542

June 12', 19.81 Tape No . 2427 NM - 3 Z.tR . OTTENHEIMER: Then subsection ( 2) of that says if "this does not apply," this exemption does not apply for "the following classes of information." .ll:nd that \vould be, inforrnation,for example, respecting an individual in the performance of his of::icial duties if he i .s an employee of gov~rnment or under contract to government and the terms of contracts for service, !or example , that the gover: tl'l\e."lt \vould enter L11to \o~ith an individual; 6543

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2428 DW - 1 MR. G. OTT~NHEIMER: information regarding any dis- cretionary benefit conferred on an individual, like an exgratia payment. That would cover that type of thing. And personal information to which a person would be entitled pursuant to another Act,and we are adding for purposes of clarification after (

d) an additional one, (e). I will just read it out- the hon. President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) will move it because I cannot - MR. STIRLING: MR. MARSHALL: MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: It has not been distributed yet? Oh, ves. Has it? It is so long ago since we had it I cannot recall. But I will read it, I do not think it is a controversial matter. Included with (

d) going into (

e) would be, 'Information where the person who requests the information is the person to whom the information relates or where the person to whom the information relates permits in the prescribed manner access to the information by the person who requests the information'. What it comes down to is that obviously a person may ask for information regarding himself or regarding another person if ~hat person agrees. It was omitted in the first, it is for the purpose of clarification. So if the hon. President of the Council would move its adoption. MR. W. MARSHALL: I so move it, Mr. Chairman.

On motion, Clause 10 as amended, carried. On motion, ~lauses 11, 12, 13, 14 carried . MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Shall Clause 15 carry? The hon. Minister of Justice . MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, we were going to move an amendment- then by having immediately- I think- MR. W. MARSHALL: After Clause 15, after Clause 15 is carried, Mr. Chairman . . MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: After Clause 15, yes . 6544

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2428 DW - 2 On motion, Clause 15 carried . MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): Shall Clause 16 carry? The hon. Minister of Justice . MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: What we are doing here is we are asking the, Comrni ttee to add a new Clause 16 and then to re-number the ensuing sections accordingly. What we wish to put in as the new Clause 16 would be the words, 'In any proceeding under this Act,the burden of estab­ lishing that access to information requested under this Act may or must be refused shall be on the head concerned'.

This is the philosophy which, you know, it was implicit and intended, and indeed I think explicit as well, in the bill. In other words, it establishes the right to information. And if a head of department refuses that information, then it must be established that it is information which, in fact, number one,he either may refuse if it is the discretionary area or,number two, - another category - he must refuse where there is a requirement to so do. So 'l'lhat would be moved here would be this additional

section which establishes that the burden is on the head of depart­ ment so refusing information. ~· L. STIRLING: It reverses the present Clause 16. The present Clause 16 goes the other 'flay around, 'No action lies against the head'. What you are saying is that it reverses that? MR. \,. OTTENHEIMER: No. What would happen is this would go in as Clause 16 and then Clauses 16, 17 an d 18 would become - MR. STIRLI NG: (Inaudible) different too. MR . G . OTTE NHE H1 ER: - there are only Clauses 16 and 17 actually, there is no eighteen. Oh, yes, 16, 17 and 18 becomes 17, 18 and 19. It is an additional. MR. L. STIRLING: Yes, all right, okay. 6545

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2428 DW - 3 M...R.. l'l. !.f.ll..RSH_~LL: I so move, W.r. Chairman. On motion, Clause 16 as amended, carried. On motion clauses 17 through 19 carried. Motion, that the Committee having passed the bill with amendment, carried. 6546

June 12, 19 "81 Tape ~o . 2429 EL - 1 A bill, "An Act Respecting The Protec cion of Personal Privacy . '' (Bill No. 2) • On motion, cl auses (1) through (1 2) carried . Motion, that the committee :::eport having passed the bill wi~hout amendment , carried . A bill, "An Act To Repeal The Canada Say Lumber Company Limited (.Agreem en

t) Act , 19 7 4 . " (Bill No . 24). On motion, clauses {1) and (2) , carr ied . ~otion, t~a~ the committee :::eport having passed tl'le b.Lll wit.'lout amendment, ca .r:::ied. A bill, "An Act To ~.mend The Norkers' Compensadon Act ." (Bill ~o . 47 ). On motion, clause 1, carried. ~1otion, that the conuni ttee repo::-t h avL~g passed the bill without amendment, carried . A bill,

An Act To .~end The Financial l.dmL'lis~ ration Act , 1973 ." (Bill No . 41 ). On motion :lauses (1) t~ough (5), carried. Motion, that the committee report having passed the bill withou~ amendment, carried . A bill, "~.n Act RespectL""lg The Department of Environment. " t.Bill :-lo. 41 . On motion, clauses (1) th.ro1.:g!l 24,cat""'"-1ed . ~8 . :d~.RS R.;LL : T!lere a:::e a ::e1~ a::~enC..:nents . \voulc you ,.,.a.nl: co ::~a.<e a few commen::s be:~re ·,;e do ::~em? ~~R . C5di~tll,..'l (3ut ::): !'he hon. c..'te Leader o: r.he Oppos:.tion . ~.R. ST!RLDlG: Council (i-1. ~larshall) r ·.vould i:wite th .e ?resi.den:: of t:~e to interrupt. :ne i: the amendmencs will deal wi.t~ 6547

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 242~ EL - 2 ~8. STIRLING : the problem . The probla~ here is ~~is

section of the Act,

Section 25, gives the authority to che minister to use, for exru~ple, ~indsor ~~e for other uses- MR . .li..'IDREWS: Not in Wir.dsor Lake . l-1R . STIRLING: whether or not - MR. .!~..~DREWS : MR . STIRLING: The clause allows you to decide (Inaudible) happens .i.-:1 Nindsor LaJ<e. Assuming that the present minister 6548

-.-; J ___ _ June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2430 SD - 1 MR. STIRLING: carries on the way that he has carried on since the time he became minister, which caused the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) to say, 'The damage is already done in Boanvista,' that same kind of comment. Mr. Chairman, no minister should have the authority to allow people to use a public water supply for other than a public water supply. We all know, in our Province AN HON. MEMBER: What bill is that? MR.

STIRLING: We are talking about the Environment Bill, Bill No. 4, clause 25 which gives the authority to the minister to use public water supplies for other uses. Now, Mr. Chairman, I have already received a complaint, as has the Minister of the Environment (~x. Windsor), as has the Minister of Health (Mr. House) from an area on the West Coast in which two ministers have already come out on record, and I would invite the Minister of Health to get into the debate, where the Minister of Health has written saying that this water supply should not be used for the landing of aircraft. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR.

STIRLING: And the council in that area has not taken action to protect it. Now, Mr. Chairman, you have a situation in which we just do not have the funds, we do not have the police and we do not have the political will in this Province to clean up pollution and to make adequate recreational facilities available under controlled conditions. And I can relate to the situation in the Indian Bay area where not a nickel has been spent to control, to put guards on, to put a fence up, to put a gate on, to employ people to control the pollution and the indiscriminate use of our countryside. 6549

-. June 12, 1981 Tape No. 243'Q SD - 2 MR. STIRLING : Now, Mr. Chairman, one of the areas that we have maintained relatively good control over has been our water supply areas. And one of the reasons we have maintained excellent control is that there has been absolutely no extensions to allow people to fis'h in those water supply areas, to have recreational use in those water supply areas or anything of that nature. And, Mr.

Chairman, once you let down your guard, once you allow people to use the water supply area you are then setting up all kinds of pollution abuse and you have the same kind of garbage used in our water supply areas as you have used now indiscriminately all over the countryside. Mr. Chairman, the minister now has all the authority he needs to keep pollution under control. We have all the authority we need to really develop a tourist industry. And, Mr. Chairman, this is an authority that the minister should not be given, the authority to open up the water supply area. ~use can you imagine, Mr.

Chairman, what would happen in the Windsor Lake area, for example? And I use Windsor Lake as an example- MR. HANCOCX : The y will not p ~ t up with it _out there, but he is trying to do away with (inaudiblel. MR. STIRLING: and that is why I want to use that as an exarnple 1 because it affects directly the people of St. John's. And the people of St. John's, if they get concerned and get after the ministers and get on the Open Line shows,then they will be able to bring into effect a benefit which will be of use to everybody else throughout the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

This is not a progressi ve piece of legislation. If, Mr. Chairman, we had policing available all through this Province, if we had the pol lution and corruption that is taking ,place right now under control 1 then maybe in another 100 years you could consider allowing people 6550

June 12, 1981 Tape No . 2430 so - 3 MR. STIRLTNG: the use of our water suppl y systems. But, Mr. Chairman, at the present time this just should not be accepted because we will end up with the kind of pollution that is now in effect . The Minister of Health (Mr. E!ouse ) can confirm it, he ha s made recommendations, they have not cleaned up the situation. And, Mr. Chairman, that. is cen:ainly an absolute =ight that the 9eople have , to expect t!\ac t.'leir water supply - there has been a long fight to get watershed areas set up properly and to get it under control.

It has been a long fight to clean up the pollution of industry, a long fight to clean up the pollution of just the average person using the facility. Mr. Chairman, if you scart fishing, you Nil: have gas, oil, 6551

~' June 12, 1981 Tape 2431 EC - 1 MR. STIRLING: rusty cans and people will dump garbage there, they will leave garbage there. They will be guilty of every kind of an offence we now see in gravel pits around our countryside. So, Mr. Chairman, we have to recommend to the government in the strongest possible terms that they not allow the minister to have the authority in Clause 25 where it says, "Where the .tJ!.inister is satisfied upon the advice of his officials that the nature and size of a public water supply is sufficiently large to preclude any pollution by any person, the Minister may define and prescribe a

section or sections of the public water supply to be used by persons for swimming, fishing or any other activity". Now, Mr.Chairman, we have seen all kinds of regulations that cannot be policed and administered. You have the spectacle here .in the middle of the city; you have the spectacle in a park in which to control a park you have to put on · police with guard dogs. And, Mr. Chairman, that is the kind of situation where you just do not have enough police, you just do not have enough people throughout this Province. And people are afraid to let anyone tamper with the water system. Mr. Chairman, that is a

section of control with a few exceptions, but by and large, it has been controlled. There has been a great effort now to clean up the pollution in rivers that are used for a water supply system, pollution in lakes, and, Mr. Chairman, I think that that authority to use the water supply systems should not be granted the minister. Therefore, I suggest in the strongest possible terms that Clause 25 be changed to take away that authority. Now, the minister indicated that he was prepared to bring in some amendments. 6552

June 12, 19§1 Tape 2431 EC - 2 MR. STIRLING: Mr. Chairman, I would hope that the amendments are such that that authority will not be granted to anyone to use the water supply system or the watershed areas in a water supply area for any purpose other than the provision of water supply to the area that is involved. And, Mr. Chairman, I make that request in the strongest terms possible, because once you start it you will not be able to stop it and will be set back and wasting money trying to control a problem that we now have under control, Mr. Chairman. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Butt): The hon. the Minister of the Environment. MR.. ANDREWS : I certainly appreciate the concerns of the Leader of the Opposition. But I believe one of the points he mentioned, the problem, say, in an area such as Stephenville, where the municipality now controls the water system - this would give the provincial Department of Environment more authority to regulate that. MR. STIRLING: No, you have the authority _.\.-- now. MR. ANDREWS: We only have authority when a problem gets big enough that the Department of Environment will have to be called in.

At the present time the municipality protects the water supply area. Regarding the ultimate use of a water body for fishing, for swimming, for boating and so on, there are a few areas in the Province where double or even triple use is compatible. Certainly, one of them is not Windsor Lake, and I, certainly, as minister would never recommend it. It is a water supply for the largest community on the Island. AN HON. MEMBER: What about Gander? MR. ANDREWS : But there are communities, we could take, for example, say Gander Lake where,if water 6553 ...,

June 12, 1981 Tape 2431 .EC - 3 MR . ANDRL'"'WS: were coming from Gander Lake to a m~~cipa~ity, the other end of it might be thirty miles away. I would see no problem there with permitting fishing or a little bit of boating or a little bit of swimming, properly cont rol led . There is no danger th ere of pollution . Onder the act right now, in a lake as large as Gande r Lake it is illegal to fish or boat or swim if it is being used for a municipal water supply . So I think this gives a little more leeway to the act . There are many large lakes in tile Province, particularly if you get into the Labrador area , 6554

--· ·-- ~ -. ----· _ ,._ ·~-- June 12,19~1 Tape No. 2432 AH-1 MR. ANDREWS : where it is ludicrous just to have them for only drinking water alone,because the body of water is large enough to absorb other activities. MR. DINN: Gander Lake. Gander town uses Gander Lake. MR. ANDREWS : Yes. MR.CHAIRMAN (Butt) MR. WAMEN: The non. member for Torngat Mountains. Mr.~' I want co make a few comments pertaining to Clause No. 25. I may wander back and forth from numbers 23 to 25, Mr. Chairman.

However, a while ago in a tiny community of 450 peopie in Hopedale, there was a questionnaire, a survey done concerning the water, the health probiems, the sewerage, everything in Hopedale. Now, Mr. ~. I want to read out - ana I could table this in the House -I want to read out wnat this survey showed concerning Hopedale , and it has a lot to do with the Environment Department, Mr. Chairman. The first question asked was which way do you get rid of your garbage? N1nety per cent of tne peop1e used the words 'slop pails.' That is the only way to get rid of it,by slop pails.

There is no water and sewerage system at all. They made suggestions also, Mr.chairman. They suggested there should be some cement pits installed in the town or proper septic tanks. Mr.Chairrnan,the dumping site was right within the town boundaries, right within the town boundaries. Ninety-three per cent of the people said, 'Move it away from the houses, because it is awful smelly in the Summertime'. Mr. Chairman, concerning the garbage, now, before I go on, concerning the garbage, last year the town council in Hopedale approved $10,000 to build walkways from the shoreline out towards the ocean 6555 -!' . A o0 -

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2432 Air 2 MR. WARREN: for dumping garbage, because tfiere. is no other place other than right on the shore to dump the garbage. So they approved $10,QOQ to take the. garbage away from the houses and throw it·off in the water. The Department of the Environment wrote back and disallowed it, tfiey said, 'No way. You cannot do it,' so · they were compelled, Mr. Chairman - but the Department of the Environment did not come up with an alternative and they were compelled to go back and keep throwing it hack on the ground, right £n the middle of the community. So, Mr.

Chairman, here is what they say about garbage. "Garbage is a health hazard". Ninety­ two per cent of the people said garbage in the community of Hopedale is a health hazard. And he~e are some of the answers. Our children get cut if they play near it. Impetigo, blue flies, maggots and dogs get in it, Mr. Chairman. . So just imagine, Mr. Chairman, right in a community there is garbage that is full of maggots, blue flies, impetigo. The kids play around it. Because there is no other place available for them to dump their garbage, Mr. Chairman, the garbage is thrown around the houses.

There is no other place there and the Department of the Environment have already refused Mr. Chairman, I might be wandering from 23 to 25 but I am coming back to the water very shortly. Mr. Chairman, well, what did they say about water? Mr. Chairman, 55 per cent of the people are not satisfied. They say the water is too salty, poor tasting. And even the pump houses they have there to try to get a bit of sensible drinking water are either broken down or not operational. And 60 per cent of the people say the water, the drinking water is affect£ng their health, 60 per cent, Mr. Chairman . Sixty per cen .t 6556

June !2,!98J. Tape No . 24 32 AfL 3 ~IR . WARREN: of the people in Hopeoale say that the water t:hey are forced to drink l.S af::ecting their health( It causes diarrhea, flus, stomach ache and so on . And this is because of the water . In fact, H.r.

Olai.rman, I l'i'ant to advise the hon. minister that at the present time there is only one small well that the Department of Health has confirmed as fit to oe used l.n HopeOale, one smaJ.l well, Mr . fact , Mr .Chai.rman, chere is garbaqe, t:here is sewage flowing in from cne school and houses right into the water supply of the hospital out t:here, That is how bad it l.S in Hopedale, Mr. Chairman.The In water tnat: l.S coming into t:he nospi tal , t,'lere is sewerage seeping into that water supply.

So, M.r.Chai.rman,there is something wrong 1 something that t:~e Department of the Environment . throucp the Department of Eealt.h and so on 1 ha s to do something about , 6557

June 12, 19_81 Tape No. 2433 NM - 1 MR. WARREN: I want to bring this to this government,tnat we do have a health hazard. We do have a health hazard. We have a bigger one in Davis Inlet, Mr. Chairman. MR. ANDREWS : - the Department of Kealth. MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, there are le.tters on file to the Department of Keal th. There are le.tters on file in your department, Mr. Chairman, in the minister's department. MR. ANDREWS: (Inaudible} . MR. WARREN: Speak to the former minister.

You should speak to the ~ormer Minister of the Environment, ae will assure you that there are letters on file concerning those problems in Kopedale. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) Council. MR. MARSHALL: Thank you. Shall clause (251. carry? The hon. President of the Yes, Mr. Chairman, there are a few amendments to this.

Section 25 (2} (b). is amended by striking out the words, "bathe, swim or wash", and substituting the words, "fish, bathe, swim and wash," so apparently they are going to - MR. STIRLING: They want to make it worse. MR. MARSHALL: No, I do not think it is worse. I think it is going to make it better, is it not? We always, when we make amendments, we try to make them better anyway. MR. WOODROW: And doing a good job. MR. MARSHALL: And

section 25 (3 }. also will be amended by striking out the words "water supply" where they both appear and by substituting the words "water supply area". I do not know why that has - it is just a AN HON. MEMBER: A watershed could be quite large. 6558

June. 12, 1981 Tape. No .. 2433 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL : Yes. It could be quite large. And number (b), by striking out the words, "swimming and fishing," and substituting the words, "fishing, boating, swimming and washing." MR. STIRLING: to? MR. MARSHALL : MR. STIRLING: words and substituting which? MR. MARSHALL : What does that arnendmen.t apply It applies to 25 (3). 25 UL, striking out which Well, first of all we are expanding "water supply" to "water supply area". MR. STIRLING: Watershed. MR.

MARSHALL: Yes, And striking out the words "swimming, fishing", and substituting the words, "fishing, boating, swimming and washing," where the minister is satisfied that it is large enough. Of eourse,all of these things have to be exercised with a certain amount of discretion and recognize the fact of where it is and - MR. STIRLING: I mean,the act goes on to say, "swimming, fishing or any other activity." MR. MARSHALL : MR. STIRLING: boating and washing~ MR . MARSHALL: Yes.

What is the signifigance of adding Well, because the minister, if he is satisfied.upon the advice of his official that the nature and size of the water supply area now is sufficiently large to preclude any pollution, the minister may define and prescribe a

section or sections of the public water supply to be used by persons for - before it was only swimming or fishing , now it is going to be fishing, boating, swimming and washing. MR. STIRLING: The. other clause that carries on, if you continue to read, says, "swimming, fishing," and then, now, these whatever other words you had, "or any other activity," 6559

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2433 NM ""' 3 MR. STIRLING: you kn.ow 1 presumably an_y other activity already was broad enoug~ to include boating and washing. MR. MARSHALL: Yes, I would think perhaps it is but I think what the drafsmen would like, you want to make regulations within the ambit - of course they have to make regulations within the ambit of what has been authorized by this House. So we want to put it front and centre as to what the situation is. And I do not think that the right - I know it says "any other activity", but it would have . to oe a related activity rather than a new activity. MR.

STIRLING: So the wording now reads, "fishing", the ne:w one will be what? MR. MARSHALL: The new one will be "fishing, boating, swimming and washing, or any other activity." MR. STIRLING: Does that mean washing your car? MR. MARSHALL : MR. STIRLING: for example? I beg your pardon? Does that mean washing your car Washing. Washing includes everything. Presumably it means washing yourself, your car. MR. ~~RSHALL: Yes. Yes. But it would have to be done with the minister's approval. MR. STTRLING: It makes it even worse, Mr. Chairman. MR.

MARSHALL: .The minister's approval would have to be- you know it would have to be on advice of the official. MR. STIRLING: more - MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. HAN COC K: All you are doing is making it Shall the amendment carry? No, Mr. Chairman. 6560

------ June 12, 1981 MR_ CRATRMA..l'f (Butt) The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: Tape No. 2433 NM ~ 4 Tha hon. malllher for St . .Mary's., Yes, Mr. Chai:rman, I would like to have a few words on this becaue I think it is very important. I think once tfie message goes out from this Kouse of Assembly of what is happening here ,and the people are made aware that their water supply can be hampered with or changed, or some adverse effects can take place ?Y the decision put in the hands of the minister, I think you are going to have a lot of chaos in certain parts of this Province. MR. STIRLING: (Inaudible) to need it. MR.

HANCOCK: I know if people in Windsor Lake, for example realize that people, upon the minister's own dis­ cretion, that people can wash their cars, or go out and bathe themselves, or MR. STIRLING: Do their laundry. MR. KANCOCK: - do their laundry or go swimming or fishing or throw beer cans, this will all become a part - this is just a normal thing with fishing, that people abuse the system. They just go out - I have seen them standing up, the guys,drinking out of beer cans and the next thing you know the beer can is out in the river.

I felt like throwing the bloody person in to get the beer can out but you cannot do it. It is not my job to do this. This happens on a day to day b~sis in the Summertime. I have seen it happen and I feel that this

section here, this number 25 is about the only real danger in the whole act. It gives the minister too much authority. We could end up some day with an idiot for a Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth~ I am not saying we have one now, I think he is doing the best job that he can do and he is not a bad minister. MR. NEARY: With th~ competence he has, which is limited. MR. HANCOCK: But just say for argument's sake next year the minister changes, or 6561

June 12, 1981 · Tape No. 2434 SD - 1 MB,, HANCOCK: next month the minister changes anq if somebody has a cabin on a river, he can designate that area, if it is a watershed or not, he can determine ~hetner or not you are allowed to go fishing, hunting, swimming( bathing or whatever in that reservoir.

So I think it is a dangerous prcatice, I think it should be amended, The amendments that were made by the minister just a few minutes ag0 did not add or ta.ke anything away, tt made the act worse, Now you are allowed to go out and bathe and swin\ and w·ash and do whatever you want to do in a water supply. r think a study should be done to determine whetRer or not the people of this Province would want to see something like this happening in their water supply. I know in my area in the few ones we have, if you are caught there fishing there is a big uproar, you are not even allowed to fish in it.

And I think if the minister was to determine whether or not you could fish in that area, he would have a number of residents upset with him. And I am sure the s~e thing - use Windsor L~e, for example, if the people in Windsor Lake knew that the power was vested in the minister to determine whether or not people could wash their cars in Windsor Lake, for example, it can happen. MR. NEARY: I spok .e in thi.s Kouse about a year and a half or two years ago - MR. MARSHALL: It cannot happen. M..q;. RANCOCK: It can happen, it can happen in this act here. !'!..R.

NEARY: - and I was in favour of opening up Windsor Lake for fishing. MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible)_ in the area. r-m.. RANCOCK; Yes, but what is Windsor Lake? MR. DINN: What about Gander Lake? MR, MARSHALL: Yes, but - MR. HANCOCK: But - no, there are not 'buts' really. If they wanted to go fishing in Windsor Lake and the minister felt there were enough fish in Windsor Lake to go fish.ing,he 6562

June 12, 1981 MR. HAJ.'lCOCK : MR. DINN: Tape No. 2434 SD - 2 can say that I am going to - What about Gander Lake? MR. HANCOCK: Gander Lake is probably one exception. That is about the only one I can think of off hand, that is probably one exception.~ MR. STIRLING: (inaudible) anyway . MR. HANCOCK: There is nobody saying that he cannot I just feel, Mr. Chairman, I would like to end up by emphasizing what the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) has said,that it gives too much power to the minister. The whole

section should be deleted, Mr. Chairman. It should be up to the council of the ar"!il. and the peoole in general in this ProvinceJ 1"hether or not to decide what their water system is going to be used for, not to put all the power with one man to determine whether or ~ot they can wash their cars or bathe or do whatever they want to do with the water system. I think it should be deleted altogether, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : MR. ANDREWS : Thank you. The hon. Minister of the Environment. This is more than a little bit ridiculous, the whole thing.

This amendment here authorizes the department, the minister, to permit fishing or boating or swimming in large lakes such as Gander Lake. Nobody is contemplating washing cars or swimming in Windsor Lake or the water supply system of a small community that comes from a small pond or a small lake. There are a few- and in the introductory notes, if the hon. members would read them,it says that there are a few public water supplies in the Province where both uses could be compatible and there are only a few, One which stands out in everyone's mind is Gander Lake. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon.

Leader of the Opposition . MR. STIRI,TNG: . Mr. Cha irman, let us agree that we would like to allow boatinq on Gander Lake but, Mr. Chairman, what you are do ing, and maybe we have n ot gotten the 6563

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 243-4 so - 3 MR. STIRLING: point across, maybe somebody on the other side would like to think about it for a few minutes to help get the point across. The situation is, .Jnce the public gets the impression that there are certain circumstances under which you can wash your cars in a water supply system - MR. At~DREWS: (Inaudible) MR. STIRLING: Yes. - then you cannot control it, Mr. Chairman.

It is not possible for you to put enough police on to control it once people start using Windsor Lake to swim, fish, wash their cars, once they hear, you know, that there are certain circumstances, there are certain lakes, there are certain water supply areas. Now, I am sure ,under the present authority that the minister has or the Minister of Health (Mr. House) has, there is already sufficient authority to give permission for people to use Gander Lake.

If there are a few large lakes and you need to improve the legislation to give you permission to allow them to be used,then do the legislation by exception, bring in the exceptional piece of legislation that you need to give yourself that authority. But to give blanket authority to the minister to say - and if you just look at the wording where is says, 'That the public water supply it sufficiently large in the judgarnent of the minister'.

Now, let us assume that you do not have the present minister, pick out the worst colleague that you could imagine on this side and assume that he is going to be the minister after the next election - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. STIRLING: On this side - on the other side. No, no, on this side - pick out the worst that the y can consider on this side and ask themsel ves MR. NEARY: No, the worst on that side. MR. STIRLING: No, no. 6564

June 12, 1981 Tape No . 2434 so - 4 M.R. M.li.RSHALL: Why did the Leader of the Opposition, when you said t.hat, look directly at t~e member for LaPoile? SOME HON . MEMBESS: Bear, hear! MR . STIRLI~G: I did not look directl y at anyone. That is an exceptional - t.'le President of t.he Council (Mr . Marshall) is at his best , he is at his anti -confederate best - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh . MR . STIRLING: - yes, when he can get any kind of an excuse to gel: us off the main point in debate . Be neve~ ever got over the fa ct that we became part of Canada - MR. ANDRE\ 'lS : It does noc work anymore. I will ask you something. Do you think that anyone on the Opposition side, 6565

June 12, 1981 Tape 2435 EC - 1 MR. ANDREWS: if he were Minister of Environment,would permit swimming in Windsor Lake? MR. STIRLING: I would not want that authority for any minister. You see, you are missing the point. Once you allow any water supply to be used for washing of cars - your amendment only makes it worse - washing of cars, landing aircraft, fishing, swimming, bathing, as soon as that message goes out you will not be able to control it. You will not have enough people to patrol,to keep people away from polluting the water supply system, and it has nothing to do with which minister is the minister. M.R.

HANCOCK: If you are going to be allowed to fish in one, you will have to open them all up. MR. STIRLING: It is a question that you will not have any control over. Mr. Minister, come back to reality. MR. ANDREWS: populace. MR. STIRLING: You underestimate the general I underestimate the general populace. I mean, that kind of a comment indicates that the minister just does not have any grasp of what he is setting himself up for. Where has the pressure come to use water supply systems for washing of cars? Where did it come from? MR. ANDREWS: amendment. MR. STIRLING: MR. ANDREWS : out of your head. MR.

STIRLING: Washing-of cars is not in the It is in your new amendment. It is something you are pulling No, you brought in an amendment that said 'washing' - did not restrict it to washing of feet or eyes or hands, it says 'washing'. 6566

June 12, 1981 Tape 2435 EC - 2 MR. STIRLING: It could include cars, it could include anything. And this is the thing - washing your dog, washing cars, under the amendment you are permitting it. MR. HANCOCK: (Inaudible) the minister. MR. STIRLING: Under the amendment you are. Yes, under the amendment - the amendment is including washing. t1R. HANCOCK: It is not specific about it, somebody washing his face. MR. MARSHALL : Sections (1) and (2) (inaudible) blanket prohibition. That a minister may define certainareas is a blanket prohibition again.

Sub-section (3) says in exceptional circumstances he may permit certain limited useage in certain areas, that is all. That is what it does. So there is a blanket. Once he designates an area there is a blanket prohibition against it. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Chairman, you are missing the point. If that is the case, then why do you not bring in a specific piece of information, a specific piece of legislation, if you want to deal with Gander Lake?

The concern that I have - I have two concerns, one is the amount of pressure that can be brought on a minister - and I saw it in the Bellevue by-election, for example; we will take a situation in the Bellevue by-election in which a fish processing plant had been refused. He did not go through the appeal procedure, but on the eve of the election, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) came out and called a public meeting.

When the pressure of the by­ election was on him and the pressure of politics was on him, the minister came out - after having refused the fish processing licences and no appeal procedure, the 6567

June 12, 1981 Tape 2435 EC - 3 MR. STIRLING: Minister of Fis 'heries (Mr. Morgan) carne out, called a public meeting of the fishermen and the plant workers and the plant owner and said, 'If you vote for the P.C. member, here is what I can do: Here is your permit.' Bang! And he signed it. No justi­ fication. MR. ANDREWS: Good stuff! MR. STIRLING: 'Good stuff' the minister says, exactly. And he was out there campaigning, and if that minister had received a request from people who said, 'Look, all of us in this area want to go fishing and washing our cars. Just give us the permission under

Section 25,' would the minister- as he said, good stuff - would he be able to resist the temptation to g'et up and say, 'I will do the same thing as the Minister of Fisheries~ MR. ANDREWS: MR. STIRLING: of Fisheries in there. MR . NEARY: fool in there. MR. STIRLING: (Inaudible).

Well, let us put the Minister Then you would be putting a real Would you be able to resist the political temptation to say, 'We will give authority.' That is the key that I do not want a minister on that side to have, and in a year or two years when we form the government, I do not want our minister to have the authority so you do not have to worry about it. That is why I said use your imagination, because the authority you are giving here is to the minister and it is not being specific. It is to the minister. No matter what kind of a fool that minister may be - aR.

ANDREl-vS : The minister and his officials - on advice from his officials. .MR. STIRLING: Yes, and the minister has 6568

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2436 OW - 1 MR. L. STIRLING: already indicated, if you look at the advice that - MR. HANCOCK: (Inaudible) officials when you called (inaudible) stadium a monstrosity. MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Chairman, ministers around here have ne ver ta ken very much advice from officials because the first question that this minister has under this Act he decided not to appoint a board! He decided not to appoint a board! Was that on the recommendation of your officials? MR. H. ANDREWS: That is not for me to tell you, Sir. MR. L. STIRLING: No, you are right.

It is because the minister on one hand is prepared to .say, 'I will take advice from the officials and on the other hand say, 'I am not prepared' We just passed Freedom of Information legislation. The truth of ~~e matter, you see, is it is pure political. MR. H . ANDREWS : We have had two major developments in the Province since that bill was introduced, that Act was introduced,one of them was turned down on environmental grounds. That is fifty/fifty. MR. L. STIRLING: MR. H. ANDREWS: So that is good enough. If we So \<Ve do use the ministerial discretion and it does work I can assure you. MR. L.

STIRLING: So what you are saying is that it is okay to give the minister discretion. He will poison SO per cent of the water supply systems as long as SO per cent of the water suppl y systems he is right in. It is okay for the minister to be fifty/fifty and that is the problem. I do not trust the minister - MR. H. ANDREWS: Oh! We were right 100 per cent of the the time! 6559

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2436 DW - 2 MR. L. STIRLING: - to have a fifty/fifty chance , because the water supply system is too important to tamper with. Mr. Chairman,! challenge the minister or the ministry or the government to show where there is any pressure from any group at this time to extend this control to allow people to wash their cars, to allow people to bathe, swim, boat with all of the oil pollution and everything that is associated with it,to open up this business of water supply systems.

I do not know where that pressure is coming from except it was something that was slipped in in the drafting not at the request of the pub­ lic, not at the request of anybody knowledgeable, not at the request of any municipal council but simply somebody said, 'Well, let us slip that in because we will give the minister as much power as we can'.

And I challenge the minister to show any kind of evidence that anyone has asked for this kind of authority to be granted,to use the Windsor cLake water supply system for boating, fishing and related activities.There is none requested.And if the minister would not be so stubborn when he is wrong - the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) has already got a prob­ lem with him down in Bonavista South ,where the damage is already done. To quote the Minister of Fisheries, 'I am trying to prevent a situation in which again the damage is already done'.

On the question of the environment in which under this Act this minister had to give a per­ mit for the spray programme! the minister did not tell the whole truth. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. H. ANDREWS: MR. MARSHALL : Oh, oh~ A point of order, Mr. Chairman. You cannot say that. 6570

-- June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2436 DW - 3 MR. CHAIR"'1AN (Butt) : A point of order, the hon. Minister of Environment. MR . H. ANDREWS : I would ask the hon. member to withdraw that statement . MR. S. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr . Chairman. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, on what grounds is the hon. gentleman asking my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) - MR. CHAIRMAN: To the point of order, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. s.

NEARY: - On what grounds -the hon. gentle- man just gets up and directs the Chair to ask the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw something without quoting any authority for it, without stating why he thought my colleague was unparliamentary. And he was not, by the way~ He expects to manipulate the Chair. It is just a difference of opinion between two hon. members, Mr. Chairman, and I hope Your Honour will rule that way. MR. W. ~.ARSHALL: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, the authority is in Beauchesne.

Now ,you can say that somebody has not imparted the facts properly, you know, has been mistaken as to the facts. You cannot call a person a liar, for instance, in this House. So if somebody says that a per­ son is not telling the trutb then you have to take it · within the context and within the context it is, 'Was the person not telling the truth because he was mis- taken as to fact, an innocent mistake , or was it because it was venom? 6571

,.. June 12, 1981 Tape No . 2436 OW - 4 SOl>tE RON • MEHBERS: Oh, oh ! MR. w. MA..>tSHALL: The hon. gentleman, Mr. Chairman, should be asked ,really ,to withdraw it or to clarify. I mean 1 we do not need to go on with that . MR. L. STIRLING: Mr . Chairman,to the point of order . MR . CHAIRMAN (Butt) : To the hon. point of order, on e final submis si on, the hon. member Leader of the Opposition . MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Chairman, to the point of order 6572

...... Jul;le 12 ... 1981 MR. STIRLING: .. ---- -·-- Tape No. 2437 EL - 1 reference Page 113, Beauchesne, Page 110, since 1958 it has been ruled parliamentary to use the follwwing expressions,"Truth, not telling the truth." The ex- pression I used was he was not telling the whole truth. The other reference I have, Mr.Chairrnan, is Hansard, in which in one part of Hansard I asked the minister, "Did you read the re- port?" He said, "No, I did not read the report." It is clearly in Hansard. I thought it was a qnestion of privilege which was ruled not a question of privilege.

In another part of Hansard, ,in the same Hansard, in the same day, in the same Question Period, in another part the minister said, "Yes, I read it. It would have been two or three weeks ago." So, M;-. Chairrnan,the two references, one is that it is parliamentary to use the truth, the specific reference, if you check Hansard, was,I said the minister was not giving the whole truth. The minister himself in a Question Period gave two separte answers and therefore, could not be giving the whole truth because he gave two separte answers.

One, "No, I have not read the report." Two, "Yes, I read the report three to four weeks ago. •• And that is- the. reference in which-I did not accuse him of lying. I just said he did not tell the whole truth. HR. ANDREWS: I am not lying, no. MR. NEARY: No, and not telling the truth. He did accuse him (inaudible). MR. CHAIR~N (BUTT): In the context of what was said, I think in order to dispose of this matter 1 I would sL~ply ask the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw the remarks. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Chairman, I just quoted the. parl- iame.ntary reference which indicated that "is not true" is acceptable. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, I have. ruled that there is a point of order in the context in which it was said and I asked the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw his remarks. 6573

June 12, lnl Tape No. 2437 EL-2 MR. STIRLING: Mr. Chairman, are we now having a new ruling that it is not acceptable to say that somebody is not giving the whole truth? MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT) : I have ruled that there is a method - if you do not like my ruling, you know, you can appeal it to the Chair. MR. STIRLING: Well, I have no argument with the Chairman. And I am not questioning the ruling. I am looking for some direction as to what is now parliamentary. Are you now saying that without even checking Hansard you are saying that I have to withdraw - what? - the tone in which I said something? MR.

MARSHALL: Do what the Chairman said. Do you know what you are going to do? You are going to end up having even less people here in the House than down in Beaconsfield last Monday night if you (inaudible). MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please: The Chair has made a ruling and I ask the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Chairman, I withdraw wnatever it ~s that you want me to withdraw. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, you withdraw it. MR. STIRLING: I have withdrawn whatever it is you wanted me to withdraw, although I do not know what exactly it is that you have asked me to withdraw. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR.

STIRLING: MR. CHAIRMAN: have left? MR. STIRLING: Shall the amendment carry? No, Mr. Chairman. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. How much time does the hen. the Leader I now have a new ten minutes, I presume. Every ten minutes - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 6574

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2437 EL - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr.Chairman, in order to give my colleague,the Leader of the Opposition,an opportunity to carry on the strong case that he was putting forward in the belief that there should be no authority put in the hands of the minister for the things that were outlined in this particular

section of the bill, in order for him to carry on, not lose him momentum, I am __ .,_.~ glad to have the opportunity to intervene to give the hon. gentle­ man a chance to speak again. But I know the President of the Council (W.Marshall) is waiting for me. HR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT) : Order, please! If I just might pass along this in­ formation to the han. member for LaPoile(S.Neary). MR. NEARY: Sure, boy, go ahead. HR.

CHAiru-1-AN : I am sorry to interrupt him-,but I was thinking of Committee of Supply where each member speaks for ten minutes.But,indeed 1 the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has thirty minutes 1 therefore, he will have an additional nine minutes remaining. MR. NEARY: Well, in that case we will give him another thirty minutes because SOME HON. HE1'1BETIS : Oh, oh~ MR. NEARY: - the. President of the Council is over there MR. HANCOC:K: You cannot beat Munns, 'boy: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR.

NEARY: The President of the Council is laying for me, waiting for me because I believe a year and a half or two years ago, I was one of the -I believe I was the only one in this House who suggested that 6575

-' --- --- June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2438 DW - l MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Ray Simmons,who has been a champion in the cause,on behalf of wildlife and the people who like the outdoors in this Province 1 that government was designating too large an area for water- sheds in this Province. And I concurred with Mr. Simmons and I said at the time that I thought he was right and I even went as far as to say that I saw no reason why fishing should not be allowed in Windsor Lake. So I know the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) is laying over there now just waiting for me to get up and speak against this amendment.

Then he will get up and trot Hansard out and say, 'There you go,the member a year or two ago was in favour of this and now he is against it'. But, Mr. Chairman, I believe the point here is that - and I agree with Ray Simmons ; by the wa~who writes that column for The Evening Tele- ~ and I always read well, I do not always read it but every chance I get I pay attention to it because he is a very practical individual, a very common-sense individual who has a great understanding of the outdoors in this Province.

I really think that in a number of cases we have gone too far in restricting activities in watershed areas. I have no doubt that if the matter was put to the people of this Province of whether or not you should allow fishing in Windsor Lake,it would become a highly charged emotional issue and the people of St. John's who have to drink the water would probably vote against it. They would probably say, 'No, there should be no fishing in Windsor Lake'. You would probably have the same thing from the people in Gander as far as Gander Lake is concerned,and you would get the same reaction from the people - 6576

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2438 AN . HON. MEMBER: Not all over. MR. S. NEARY: No, not all over. But in Stephenville you would get the same reaction because the people who are drinking that water would be in deadly fear that the water would become polluted. But in the case of Gander Lake, of course, we know DW - 2 that aeroplanes are landing there, we know that fishing is allowed, we know that boating is allowed in Gander Lake and the people are still drinking the water. We know that in Stephenville the same thing happens.

But in the case of Windsor Lake, of course, you are not allowed to fish, you are not allowed to swim .. There is quite a watershed there as far as Windsor Lake is concerned.

I never cease to be amazed myse~f, because I have to go back and forth over that road quite often - when I was living on Bell Island I went back and forth there just about every day - and I never cease to be amazed at the people who will say that you should not be allowed to fish in Windsor Lake when everything else - when the run-off down there is running into Windsor Lake, there are culverts across the road, The water runs along the side of the road down there, there are culverts across the road and the run-off runs into Windsor Lake.

And God only knows what is going out in that lake.I have seen cars out in the lake, I have seen beer cartons in that lake, I have seen garbage thrown in Windsor Lake. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman, I think that members. of the House would have to agree that if you are going to cure the problems of Windsor Lake,that you would have to move the highway, you would have to 'move the road further back, the road is too close, the road goes right along by the reservoir, right along by Windsor Lake, the road goes along there. 6577

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2438 Dvl - 3 MR . 5. NEARY : And I would suspect that there are all kinds of pollution going into Windsor Lake far worse, in my opinion 1 than if people were allo\ved to fish there. I have no .doubt but a little bit of fishing goes on there now . I would say some of the prize trout on ~~e 24th. o£ May have come out of Windsor Lake. But anyway, Mr. Chairman, I am not saying now whether I am for or against allowing swimming and boating and fishing in Windsor Lake.

But I will say ~~s - and I am rea lly sincere about ~~is - thac ~~e area that has been allocated as a watershed is too great an area. In the ponds right now, for instance, surrounding Windsor Lake - there is a pond going down ~~e Old Broad Cove Road , there is a pond where the overflow from Utis pond goes into Wincsor Lake,ane you are allo\ved ' 6578

~ June 12, 19.81 Tape No.- 2439 . EL - 1 MR. NEARY: to swim there. There is swilllrning going on there all the time. And if you go down Bennett's. Road you will find tllat t.ti.ere are S"Ullliiler cottages, all the moneybags. have their cottages down there,and they are built right on a lake and the overflow goes into Windsor Lake. AN !ION. MEMBER: They do everything there. MR. NEARY: Pardon? They do everything there. They have septic tanks. MR. MARSHALL: Is that the watershed area? MR.

NEARY: T.ti.at is a part of the watershed area.And I am not p~i.nti.ng this out now to embarrass anybody, I am just- I mean,these are facts, these are statements of fact. MR. MARSHALL: Wliy do you not get your act to- gether? MR. NEARY: Well, our act is together. MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudililel MR. NEARY: No, I agree with the Leader of the Opposition. I agree with.. him, Mr.Chairman, that th.e reservoir itself should be restricted. MR. MARSHALL: You never disagreei with the fanner fanner, former, former leader. MR. NEARY: Who was that? MR. CALLAN: MR. NEARY: A former, fanner, former leader.

Who was the former, former, former leader? Moores, I suppose.Maybe Frank Moores. Mr.Chairman, let me make a statement for the. benefit of the hon. gentleman. I nave been - I am now going into my nineteenth.. year in this House, going into my nine- teenth year. Next June I will start my twentieth year. And I have not changed my style, I have not changed my content. I have not changed one little hit. although the press sometimes think I have changed. I arn just as vocal. I stick by my principles just 6579

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2439 EL - 2 MR. NEARY: as much now as I did the first day I sat inside the rails over there on that side of the House. I have not changed a bit. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: And I have seen leaders on that side of the House, Leaders of the Opposition come and go and I go on forever and I still have not changed and I have no intention of changing. And if I have something to say in this hon. House,as my hon. friend from Exploits ~r.

Twomey) knows, I am going to say it whether it be good bad or indifferent, whether it be right or wrong, where if I hurt somebody's feelings in saying it, I am awfully sorry to have to do that. But I have things to say and I want to say them and I have a few things to say on this part­ icular amendment. I think what the Leader of the Opp­ osition is getting at,and he has a good point,that the reservoir, itself-take ?etty Harbour, Big Pond - now, that feeds directly into the pipelines that carry the distribution of water into the homes in the city of St. John's, the same as Windsor Lake.

And then there should be no swimming, there . sl'lould be no allowing people to wash cars, or dump garbage or anything in the main reservoir. But in the watershed itself-and perhaps the medical men who are more know­ ledgable in these things than I am.can tell us if water purifies itself if it has to run long distances. r do not know. Does it? Because my hon. friend wlio is an expert - DR. MCNICHOLAS: It filters. MR. NEARY: It filters ..

I have no doubt but that it probably purifies itself, out you have water, an overflow, a run­ off going into Windsor Lake from long distances away and I believe in these ponds and rivers, where the water is given a chance. to purify itself, I think fishing should oe allowed in these ponds and lakes. 6580

June 12,1981 TApe No. 2439 EL - 3 MR. NEARY: Well, I bel~eve that makes a bit of sense and I hope that tne concern raised by Mr. Ray Simmons on a number of occasions in his column that he writes, The Out- doors, in The Telegram, I hope his concerns will be taken into consideration. So I am betwlxt and between on this one. I am with the Opposition, with the Leader of the Opposition on polluting the reserve~ as the water supply , and I can also see the advantage of the amendment.

But I am very concerned and I think the Leader of the Opposition raised a very valid point when he talked about the competence of the people who would ad­ minister this act and that is a matter of concern. That is a matter of concern to me. It is a matter of concern to all the members of the Opposition and it is a matter of concern to the people of this Province. Mr. han. friend, I think,the mem­ ber for St. John's Centre ~r.

McNicholas), who is very knowledgable in these matters,knows what I am talking about when I am talking about the ponds and the rivers and the streams around the Summer cottages and Summers homes and so forth- But , Mr. Speaker, it is the competence of the individuals. We had a case the other day, as the Leader of the Oppos~tion pointed out,where the min­ ister responsible for the Env~onment,in connection with the spruce budwor.rn,told us in answer to a question that he had not seen the environmental irnpact-~r 6561

""' . June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2440 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: the contingency plans, ~ case there was an accident or plane eras~ in connection witn the spruce budworm. And then when he got caught and he was embarrassed and he did not want to be scolded by the leader of the party, then he thought that he would try to weasle his way out of it. And ~at is w~ere somet~ng less than being factual to this House came in. That is when the incorrect information was given. The hon. gentleman trying to save his political scalp, then got up and changed his story, switched his ground and it was obvious, Mr.

Chairman, what the hon. gentleman was doing. We are not allowed to say what he did but it is so obvious. It would be unparliamentary to say what the hon. gentleman did. But it was so obvious to everybod~. The hon. gentleman felt so uncomfortable and red in the face, and wild-eyed and frustrated and desperate that we knew what the hon. gentleman had done, he ·got caug~t. And he got caught in something that was unparliamentary. We are not allowed to say it. So we would not want to see that happen, Mr. Chairman. We are very concerned about the strengths of this government.

We have a leader of t~e government, of the administration, who is strong in some ways but terribly weak in other ways. He is strong on confrontation. He is strong on attacking the Government of Canada. He is strong on attacking business and industry. He is strong on attacking unions. But ~e is too weak to develop the Province. He is too weak to negotiate agreerrents with Ottawa. He is too weak to develop the natural resources of t~s Province. So he has his strengths and his weaknesses. You know, Mr. Speaker, he means well. The Premier means well. He is well-intentioned.

But he is too weak to really do the job, too weak for the job. So t~e same t~g applies to ministers all the way down the line. He is 6582

June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2440 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: very weak on manpo~er. H:e has the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), for instance, wfio will not give up his law practice. He wants to be a minister, and he was to practice law at the same time. And he has a Minist~r. of Justice (.Mr. Ottenhe.imer) who cannct get interested in anything. He has a Minister of Justice who would prefer to be Speaker. I believe it was a mistake to - MR. MARSHALL: Perhaps the hon. gen .tlernan might like to do something about the (_inaudible) . MR.

NEARY: We ·have a Minister of Justice who cannot get interested in anything, who would like,still,to be Speaker, and I think that is the job for which he was best suited. And we can go all the way down the line, right down to the Minister of the Environment (_Mr. Andrews), which was a desperation move, a move to try to maintain some. kind of balance of power in the Cabinet, that saw the hon. gentleman brought into the Cabinet. But they are very, very low on competent manpower on the government benches, very low.

And as a consequence of that incompetence, ineptness on the part of ministers, they cannot reshuffle the Cabinet. There is no way you can reshuffle the Cabinet. All you do is just take the old deck of cards and deal it over again. So I am very concerned, Mr. Chairman, I am very concerned about putting authority in the hands of that minister and a number of other ministers on the other side of the House, most of the ministers, as a matter of fact. I am very concerned about giving them too much authority, I do not think they are capable of handling it.

So I think that is a very valid point and it is something with which the people of this Province should be very concerned. We like to see progressive legislation. We will get up in this Rouse and we will agree with legislation when we think it is good, as we have done, when it is 6583

_ , ___ .. _,.. __ ~-- - June 12, 1981 Tape. No . 2440 " NH- 3 MR . NEARY: in the interest of the. ord:Lnary people of th.i:s Province. l'l'e will vot e. against, and speak­ against le gislation when we do not think it is in. tiie. interest of th e.people of tl'tis Province. But I believe from here. on Ln., from now until the time the Tories are trufed out in this Province, that we should vote against every amendment to every bill that gives an incompetent minister more autliori"ty. MR . NARREN : Rea.r, hear! Re is incompetent, ·I will tell you that. MR . NEARY: And in this particular instance , Mr. Chairman, only in a couple 6534

June .L2,.L98.L Tape No. 2441 AH-1 MR. NEARY: of short weeks since that minister has taken over that particular department,we have rea.Lly seen how incompetent and inept that min~ster is. Games. He shagged up the W~nter M~. WARREN: .MR. NEARY: That is riaht. He forced them to resign. He has not got a clue about the environment, not a clue. He has the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) unset with him now. I mean,the man is just like Joe Blyxfgit, he has a dark cloud over him all thR time and he is going to dig a hole much deeper for himself in the future. The han. gentlRman does not do his homework.

He might have a golden voice for radin bur. you nePd a few morR quali~icati~ns than that ,Mr. Chairman, to be a minister. MR. WARREN: from a lake. Bo~ he does not know a pond MR. NFA~Y: My hon. friend the member for Menihek (Mr. Walsh) , I believe, would make a good minister. MR. WARREN: Sure. MR. NEARY: I have gotten to know the han. gentleman since we went on thePublic Accounts Committee and the han. gentleman , I think, would make an excellent minister. But I do not know why the two or three good ones they have over there are by-passed. I do not know why the member for Bay of Islands (Mr.

Woodrow) is continuously by-passed. The member for St. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas) would make a good minister, if you could only persuade him to give up h~s professional activities. He nas oeen offered a Cab~net post and he wi.Ll not go in for the simple reason that he nas the same problem th2t a certain gentleman in Corner Brook has ,who says that he wi.Ll not run in po.Lit~cs unt~l he makes nis first mJ.ll~on. He wil.L not come back ~n politics until ne 6565

-----·------- · June 12, 1981 Tape No. 2441 AH-2 MR. NEARY: makes his first million. And the hon. member for St. John's Center (Dr. McNicholas) has the same problem. What we need, Mr. Chairman - MR. STIRLING: St. John's North will soon be back in. MR. NEARY: I think what we need is to gut her out. MR. STIRLING: The member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) will soon be back in the Cabinet. ~ MR. NEARY: The member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) will never be invited back in the Cabinet, never, never, never! MR. STIRLING: Yes, yes. He is working hard on it. MR. TULK: He should be there now. MR.

STIRLING: He is going to replace 'Dinn'. MR. CHAIRMAN(BAIRDl: Order, please! We are on the amendment now, I assume. MR. STIRLING: Yes, we are talking about the authority of the minister. MR. NEARY: The hon. member for St. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas) - I am glad to hear the hon. gentleman say he has made his first million. I want to congratulate him. All he has to do is find a few more people like Geoff Stirling and he will not be long before he will have his second million made. So, Mr. Chairman, therein lies the problem.

The real concern of my hon. friend h~re - and I think he must have gotten the message through by now - is the ineptness and the incompetence of the minister. It is putting too much power in the hands of people who could not run a Sunday school picnic. MR. WARREN: That is right. MR. NEARY: That is the problem. And I believe for that reason the Leader of the Opposition has persuaded me at least - the other arguments, I think I have dealt with them, the other points, and I raised this matter myself a year or two ago and was very glad to do it, but the other agrurnents, I will ·straighten them out.

And I know the 6566

--- ----- --- - June 12,1981 Tape No. 2441 AH-3 MR. NEARY: non the President of the Counci~ is ready to get up on his feet now and say, get your act together, you know, you are being hypocritical anout it and all this,but I hope, Mr. Chairman, that I nave given the reason, the maln reason wny we are reluctant to vote for this bill and that is because we do not nave a competent minister . You cannot trust that minister. You cannot p