Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, MAY 3, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 63

May 3, 1974 The House met at 10:00 P.M, Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no, 1490 Page l - MW MR, SPEAKER: I would like to welcome to the galleries a delegation ftom Random Island who are presently visiting various departments in the interest of their various co1D111unities. On behalf of all honourable members I sincerely welcome you to the galleries today. We have just presently entering the galleries what will ultimately be about 112 Grade V students, from MacDonald Drive here in St. John's,with their teachers, Mr. Brace, Mrs. Wallace and Mrs. Clarke.

On behalf of all honourable members I sincerely welcome you to the galleries today and trust that your visit is most interesting. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS: RON. J.C. CROSBIE (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce today that the government, upon the recommendation of the Board of Directors of the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation, has appointed Gregory W. Canning, currently Vice-President of Finance of the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation, as the new President of the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation, effective May 16, 1974, which is the day following the effective date of the resignation of Mr.

Roland Avery as president of the corporation, Mr. Canning now thirty-six years of age was born in Merasheen, Placentia Bay. He is married and has four children. He graduated from the Placentia High School in 1952, attended the University of Moncton and Carlton University at various times between 1963 and 1971 and graduated as a registered industrial accountant in 1967. He has diplomas in mathematics, computer systems, management information systems and computer, managerial mathematics, models, computer programming and computer systems design, 5116

May 3, 1974 Tape no. 1490 Page 2 Mr. Canning worked with the Royal Bank of Canada in the years 1952 to 1958; the Royal Canadian Air Force in the years 1958 to 1967 and was then appointed Manager of Systems and Procedures Branch of the National Capital Commission at Ottawa, 1967 to 1972. He then became Manager of the Financial Information Services of the Canada Post Office and on March, 1973, he was appointed as Vice-President of Finance of the newly organized Newfoundland Liquor Corporation and he occupies that position at present.

The Newfoundland Liquor Corporation will be taking the necessary steps to recruit an executive vice-president for the corporation inmediately. The government and I as the minister responsible are delighted that a man of Mr. Canning's ability and experience has been found to occupy this very important position. He will be responsible for a business having 280 employees, thirty-six outlets and an estimated $32 million in sales during the present fiscal year, with a $3.5 million operating budget and an expected $26 million net profit. The government has every confidence that Mr.

Canning will continue the new programmes and procedures started at the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation by Mr. Avery and himself. MR. S. A. NEARY: Mr. Speake!, we want to congratulate Mr. Canning on his appointment. I understand that Mr. Canning is the nephew of a former member of the House of Assembly, Mr. Pat Canning who served twenty-three years in this honourable House. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, Sir, no prejudice but I would say that this is going to be a very hazardous occupation in the future.

I would say that the mortality rate is going to be high in that position, I do hope that as a result of Mr. Canning's appointment, Sir, that the price of the poor man's champagne in this province will be lowered as was promised by the administration prior to their taking office. 5117

May 3, 1974 Tape no. 1490 Page 3 PETITIONS: CAPT.WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present a petition. I might say, Mr. Speaker, that this petition is a follow up of two or three other petitions I presented from the same area. This petition is signed by 484 voters in the Communities of Joe Batt's Arm, Bard Island and Shoal Bay.

The petition calls for the upgrading and paving of the road from the Fogo Island Central High School, which is at the centre of the island, The petitioners feel that the request should receive the utmost consideration when the estimates for the Department of Highways are debated in the House of Assembly. Seven school busses travel over this road every day carrying between 400 and 500 children, to and from school.

Also the people of the above mentioned c011DDunities have to travel over the same road to obtain medical attention, At times during the winter and early spring this road is impassable and therefore students have to miss many days of school and people needing medical attention have difficulty in getting to the hospital, Mr. Speaker, in supporting this petition, it is appropriate that this petition should be presented today when the minister is piloting his estimates through this committee, This road in particular, Mr.

Speaker, is,as the petitioners say, very dangerous at most times because there is very little gravel left on that road now to grade, It is graded down almost to the bare rock. There is a hazard of slippery conditions, which I am sure the honourable minister is quite familiar with. I have made approaches to him. The last approach I made to the honourable minister was when I was given the impression that he was going to take some action on getting sand or some kind of material to spread over that road during ~lippery conditions. However, Mr.

Speaker, before anything really can He done with the road, I think it should be upgraded because certainly,as the minister I am sure is well aware he, as Minister of Highways, takes 5118

Hay 3, 1974 Tape no. 1490 Page 4 the responsibility for the safety of people travelling over that road and other roads. I do not mean to say that he takes the responsibility for people who are careless or drunken drivers or anything like that. As far as slippery conditions are concerned, I think the minister realizes that he is, as minister, responsible for the safety of people who travel over that road, especially the school children. Mr. Speaker, I would ask the minister to give this petition very serious consideration.

I ask that it be received and laid on the table of the House to have it referred to the department and to the honourable minister which I am sure it concerns. Hit. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support this petition from the people of Bard Island, Joe Batt's Arm and Shoal Bay. I believe that the Hon. Member for Fogo had brought in (I aa not sure if it were a petition for roads or not) a petition from that area last year and he soundly wrapped my knuckles after we left the Chamber for not getting up and supporting it,because I am a native of Bard Island.

Being a native of that area, I am very much aware of the conditions of the road, although I must say that they have improved considerably since t left it some twenty years ago, more than twenty years ago actually. The school busses which have to travel from all over the island to the centre, to the high school, certainly, like many other parts of the island I suppose, suffe _r from road conditions, the children riding on the busses. I have no doubt, Sir, that the Minister of Highways and the government will give this petition very favourable consideration.

I am very pleased·, Sir, to support the prayer of the petition. HON. E. M. ROBERTS (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, if I may say a word or two in support of the petition so eloquently presented by the gentlelllail from Fogo and so ably supported by the gentleman from Trinity North. 5119

May 3. 1974 Tape no. 1490 Page 5 I think the people living in this part of Fogo Island are a good case for the expenditure of some money to improve their roads. I think it is the sort of money that should have been 5li0

May 3, 1974 Tape 1491 (Morning) PK - 1 spent before some of the other projects which were done. I think, Sir, that a province and I realize there is help from Ottawa on this, a substantial help,but the province that can afford to lash out $25 million or $30 million to put a great arterial highway down from the Trans Canada Highway to the West End of St.

John's should be able to find a few thousand or a few hundred thousand dollars for the needs of the people living in this part of Fogo Island, the people who look to the road not to provide them with more adequate transportation, with speedier transportation or to enable great huge transports to carry goo~back and forth but people who look to a road to provide them with any transportation, to provide them with access to medical services, to provide them with access to their schools, to provide them with access to and from the rest of the province and the rest of Canada. So I think there is a good case, Sir.

I sometimes think, Sir, that the government and all governments, Sir, are prey to this. The so-called previous administration I fear at sometimes was led astray, ~hen you look around the province, Mr. Speaker, and you see the needs of places such as Fogo Island. We have a delegation in the gallery this morning from Random Island. I suspect that one of the matters they are raising is this question of the roads on Random Island. There has been some controversy about it recently.

Indeed I believe the delegation at one stage took a longliner or a delegation took a longliner up to Clarenville because the roads were so bad they could not get on the roads. They could not drive on them, Maybe they were dramatizing their case but they did make the gesture. They sometimes think that we should divert some of the monies that are being ploughed into Harbour arterial roads and that sort of facility and put them into the smaller roads, the less dramatic roads, the less prominent roads but the roads servic .es. which are after all the basic, essential So I support this petition.

I hope that the Minister of Transportation and Cmnmunications will be able tci provide them with the money this year. He 5121

May 3, 1974 Tape 1491 (Morning) Pk - 2 has not told anybody what he is going to do with all of the money he is asking the House to vote him. Let us ' hope he can find whatever is needed, be it $20n,noo or $300,000 for the people of Fogo Island,and find it this year. The honourable Member for Harbour Grace . MR. SPEAKER: 1-'R. H. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave of the House to present a petition on behalf of some sixty-nine residents of Bannerman Lake Road in the Town of Harbour Grace.

I know this is in the municipality of Harbour Grace, Sir, but this road is leading to the old airstrin and it is in a very deplorable condition. In the summer it is used quite extensively by tourists. The prayer of the petition, Sir, is that the road be upgraded, and paved I trust. Sir, I know it does not come under the Department of Transportation and Communications but I beg leave to table it, Sir, and it will be forwarded to its respective department, MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Labrador North. MR. M. WOODWARD: Mr.

Sneaker, we on this side of the Rouse would like to speak in support of the petition presented by the Member for Harbour Grace. It was signed by some sixty-nine residents of the Salmon Lake Road. ls that the road? MR. YOUNG: Bannerman Lake Road. MR. W00DWARD: Bannerman Lake? Yes, we cannot hear them very well over there. I think the P.A. system or they are getting very weak or the P.A. system is bad or faulty or something. very well, Mr. Speaker - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. It is not coming through MR. WOODWARD: The dull evidence is showing through.

We would like to speak in support of the petition and trust that - the Hinister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, I suspect, is responsible for it not the Minister of Transportation and Communications, I trust the department will give the people of Harbour Grace sufficient funds to have that particular road upgraded and paved, I think, that is the prayer of the petition. AN HON. MEMRl'R.: Hear! Hear! 5.122

May 3, 1974 MR. SPEAKER: Tape 1491 (Morning) PK - 3 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN ORAL QUESTIONS The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. S. A. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the minister responsible for Rousing I am going to put my question, I think . to the Minister of Finance because he seems to know it all any way, since that is the policy on that side of the Rouse.

Would the Minister of Finance indicate to the Rouse seeing that the government, his government and the minister responsible for Housing, have been so vocal on this matter of the federal eleven per cent sales tax, ~ould the minister indicate to the House that his administration intends to drop the eight per cent sales tax on building material as an indication of good £•1th and a measure to reduce the coat of housing for our people? HR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Finance. Hor. J.C. CROSBIE: (MINIS'l'ER OF FINANCE): ~r. Speaker, I suggest the honourable gentleman read the Bµdget Speech. AN HON.

MEMBER: That means it is going up to nine per cent. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker ·, I wonder if the minister would indicate if his government have taken any steps to subsidize interest on mortgage payments on new homes purchased by our people? MR. CROSBIE: I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the honourable gentleman read the Budget Speech, where it is mentioned in the Budget Speech that there is a scheln'e to that effect, to be instituted this year in certain areas. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister would indicate what page in the Budget Speech he is referring to? MR.

CROSBIE: Put it on the Order Paper, ~r. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister would inform the Rouse if his government have taken any steps towards allowing payments on the nrincipal to be deducted as an exemption from the provincial income tax? . MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I am afraid the honourable gentleman will have to COD!lllunicate with ~r. Turner who is one of his colleagues in Ottawa. He is the federal Minister of Finance who determines those 5123

May 3, 1974 Tape 1491 (Morning) PK - 4 matters. Perhaps if the honourable gentleman were to wire him, he might consider it for his budget on May 6. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, a supplementary question. It is not my place I am not the government, Sir. Would the minister indicate if his administration or if the minister himself has taken this matter up with Mr. Turner, because the initiative has to be taken by the province? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I have taken many matters up with Mr.

Turner that will be of great henefit to this province, if they are responded to favourably but as I explained in the Budget Speech many of the points made have not been responded to favourably; but I will keep trying. 'MR. NEARY: It is zero today, Sir. I wonder if the hon. Premier is in a better mood than the Minister of Finance. Could the Premier indicate to the House if negotiations are going on with the Japanese regarding the establishment of an aluminum industry in Newfoundland or their becoming a customer for any of the power from the Lower Churchill? MR. SPF.AKER: The Ron. the Premier. HON. F. D.

MOORE~ (PREMIER): The situation is, Mr. Speaker, that we are having talks with the Japanese. As a matter of fact right at this time we left to come up here this morning and we have to go back after question period, the Minister of Industrial Development and mysel~ but there are no commitments being made at this time. These people have shown an interest to establish industry outside of Japan and. if they have interest in Newfoundland it will be on the best terms that can be gotten for the province. But anyway, this House will be advised in plenty of time before any major decision is made, Mr. Speaker. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. I wonder if the Premier could indicate just what part of the province the government are thinking about recommending for the establishment of an aluminum industry. Is it the East Coast, the West Coast, the Southwest Coast? Mil.. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, that will be up to any People who establish here. They are being shown sites all around the province, of course, they are 5124

May 3, 1974 Tape 1491 (Morning) PK - 5 the ones who will be investing the capital and they will be the ones primarily who would be lilak~ng the decisions. Certainly we would have some influence on it but until such time as they have done an assesament of and evaluation of each of the sites, I think it would be wrong to identify any one area. MR. NEARY: A sunplementary, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the Premier could indicate if Bell Island is one of the sites that the govermnent have in mind? MR. MARSHALL: That is out of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, I think that question is probably out of order but I will say that the pri~pals have been shown around the province and certainly if they deem to choose Bell Island, we would give it very serious consideration. But I would like to say at the same time that I do not think for this purpose it would be on the priority list. ~ut it is too early to say, Mr. Speaker, to identify any single area. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speake~, I wonder if the Premier could indicate if the Japanese Industrialists who are here in the province at the present time are interested in iron ore development in this province? HR. MOORES: MR.

NEARY: 5125 They have not expressed any interest in that, Mr. Speaker. Well, Mr. Si,eaker, I wonder if the Premier would

May 3, 1974 Tape No. 1492 NM - 1 indicate to the House if he intends to raise this matter in view of the fact that there are substantial amounts of ore in Labrador and on Bell Island, if the Premier could indicate if he intends to raise this matter with the industrialists while they are here. MR. PREMIER: Does he want me to answer that? MR. NEARY: I do not care. I would he happy to hear from the Minister of Industrial Development. Go ahead, come on! ~ D0012!:_ Now what was the question? MR. NEA'P.Y: A question I put to the Premier, S:lr, that 1 would like the minister to answer if he can.

Will the government raise the matter of the surplus iron ore deposits that. we have in this province with Japanese industrialists while they are in the province, I am thinking about the ore reserves in Labrador and on Bell Island. Will the minister, you know, try to interest the Japanese firms in these? MR. DOODY: These people who are here now are part of a trading group,as most of the Japanese people work.

They have assured us they will talk about the iron ore reserves, deposits, both the ones that have been worked in the past and the ones that we hope to work in the future,with their principals,and hopefully stimulate some int'erest. But as T say it is simply under discussion and we are not ready to p,et involved in the reactivation of the Bell Island mines at the present time. ~- NEAJ!Y: Not ready to p;et involved. MR. DOODY: No, we are not able to announce the reactivation of the Bell Island mines at the present time because it is very much in the early talking stages. MR. NEARY: I realize that, Mr.

Speaker, and I would not want to build up people's hopes falsely but - MR. OOODY: It has been raised . MR. NEARY: Jt has been raised? >.(R. DOODY: It is in the talking stap;es. MR. NEARY: All I am askin~ the minister to do is to indicate to the 5i26

May 3, 1974 Tape No. 1492 NM - 2 House if it will be brought to the attention of not only the Japanese interests but anybody else who comes to Newfoundland who is ' interested in steel? MR. DOODY: He does not have a copy of that contract he had before doe~ he? I do not want to go back over the same ground if I can avoid it. MR, NEARY: Mr. Speaker,,no wonder I did not want the minister to get up and answer the question. He is too witty, Sir. He is too clever and witty.

Would the minister indicate then just what developments are taking place concerning the establishment of a steel plant at Come By Chance and will this involve iron ore, you know in Newfoundland, either on Bell Island or Labrador? Just what is happening in that regard? I asked the minister a question I think it was last year about this and they said it - MR. DOODY: No, it was only about one month ago. MR. NEARY: A month ago. Well I am asking again now. What is happening there? ~- DOODY: The steel mill in Come By Chance is a study that has been done bv the OREE people.

They are studying some six sites in eastern Canada in the hope of establishing a steel operation. If we can convince them to establish in Newfoundland then we will certainly try to get them to use Newfoundland iron ore. But as I say it is a study that has been done to establish where the right sites should be. To the best of my knowledge DREE has not even committed the final amounts of money that are necessary to establish such a mill. If it does happen it be in Newfoundland, I would hope that it will tum out to be somewhat more successful than the previous steel mill t'1at we had here in the province. J'ofR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, supplementary and I hope the minister does not mind me being a little bit patriotic on this matter, but is Bell Island - MR. DOODY: I would love to see any sign of decency. 5127

May 3, 1974 Tape No. 1492 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: Would not Bell Island be the obvious place for - - --- a steel mill. T mean you have the ore right there, large reserves of ore. Would the minister indicate if Bell Island is one of the sites that is being considered for this new steel mill? l'!R. DOODY: Strangely enough, Sir, despite the fact that the people in 0ttawa must be aware by now of the iron that is on Bell Island, Hell Island was not one of the sites that they asked to see, although we did tell them that it was there. They said that they had been aware of that, that the member for St.

John's East, Jim McGrath, has been pushing for it for some time. But nevertheless they felt that the Come By Ch&nce area would be a better site. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, the member for Burgeo is usin)! his mental telepathy this mornins:>:. I do have a question, Mr. Speaker, concerning the Conne River area, a couple perhaps. FirsF I would like to address to the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation.

I understancl this may be the appropriate minister, I have asked a similar question of the ~inister of Transporation before and I believe at that time he indicated it was a matter. for the other department to which I referred. In anv event,I wonder would the Minister of Rehabilitatinn and Becreation indicate whether his department is presently negotiating with the federal government and ispecifically the Department of Indian and ?lorthera Affairs concerning funding for the proposed Conne River Causeway? MR. DOYLE: '1r.

Speaker, J can answer that question in a general way this morning by saying that my department negotiates with the federal government on the grounds of the overall total involvement on the joint federal-provincial agreement for native peoples. As to tlie breakdown of the total amount of money which is now up to Sl.5 million a year, that has not been decided as yet but I will undertake to !!et the specific information for the member for Monday. Our involvement is to get the total amount of money and the breakdown is done afterwards. S128

:'-fay 3, 1974 Tape No. 1492 ~IR. SI~NS: Could the minister indicate whether there have been snecific discussions in relation to the need for funding for the causeway?, ~ DOYLE: There have been, Mr. Chairman, yes. MR. Slm-!ONS: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Transportation about the same matter, at least an aspect of it. Is he aware that the present contractor there, Eas,tern Road Builders, have been dumping some rock into the river on the ~orrisville side of Conne River, immediately opposite the . community itself?

The effect of this has been that the wharf that was there has been buried underneath about thirty to forty feet of rock and the effect of that in turn is that people are having an awful job gettinp supplies into the cormnunity. I wonder w~uld the minister indicate that he would undertake to look into this matter with a ~iew to having some temporary makeshift arrangement or probably a bulldozer.I am told, a day's work by a bulldozer mirht solve the problem in the interim but the problem now is that there is quite a high embankment there created by the fill.

I wonder would the minister undertake to have something done about this matter to facilitate getting supplies and groceries and nassengers across there on a regular basis? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation am! Communications. MR. HICKEY: :Mr, S_peaker, the honourable gentleman raised the question earlier. I took it up with my staff. I am given to understand that certain emphasis has been made already to make improvements there and I am assured that the situation as he outlines is being corrected and it will be corrected, MR. SIMMONS: This is supplementary.

I raised the question this morning because at ten minutes to ten this morning the situation has not begun to be corrected and I have had representations as late as this morning. · I wonder if the minister would undertake to expedite this. It is a considerable inconvenience to the people involved, more than an inconvenience it is a hardship really. 5129

'lay '3, l 97l, Taoe No. 1492 NM - 5 I wonder would he undertakp to expedite thP ~atcer and pi ve me a reonrt oerhaos nn what his findin~s on thP nro~ess on the job are1 MR. III CKf.Y : Yes, Mr. Speaker, 1 certainly will. It nas -been my underscandinp that the contractor has some responsibility here. The work 1s not comnleted,as the honourable member knows. There is some additional work to be done there anyway and it has been my understandin? that something had alre ady been done. 1 rep.rec if what the honourable member savA 1s correct and I assume it is.

I regret very much that it iR not done because l had indicated and i had made a request that the situation be looked into. ORl>ERS OF THE DAY: On motion of the honourable Minister of Finance, a Bill, '

An Act Resoectin~ The De~i~nation hf Beneficiaries Under Retirement Savinp.s T'lanR," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable Minister of Finance, a Bill, 0 0

An Act Resoectin11; Cert ain Provisions Of Certain 'fining Leases Made And To Be ~ade Under The Av.ree~ent ForminA The

Schedule To The Act No. 41 Of 193A As From Time To Time herto.fore amended, " read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomor row. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole, on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. r.: ~ 0 ,.; .I. ,J

May 3, 1974, Tape 1493, Pagel apb Morning COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Order please! · Yester _day, shortly before adjournment, a matter arose in an exchange between the honourable the Leader of the Opposition and the Member for St. George's. Certain remarks made by the Member for St. George's were called to my attention by the honourable the Leader of the Opposition as to whether or not they were parliamentary. I find in my research of the precedents and the material available that while the remarks may have been inelegant and out of order they were nevertheless not unparliamentary. MR.

NEARY: I wonder if Your Honour would give us the countdown? MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): We have consumed forty-two hours and fifty- five minutes, which means that we have thrity-two hours and five minutes left. MR. ROBERTS: Has t~at clock been checked? MR. NEARY: How about if the electricity goes off, Sir? What happens then? MR. ROBERTS: speeding it up. I hear that the government House Leader has been up MR •. CRA!JUWI (Stagg): We will porbably be in the dark. MR. NEARY: I do not want the committee to be in the dark. I do not mind the building being in the dark, Sir. What happens if something happens to the clock?

If t~e electr~~ity goes off for ·ao· h~ur,do we lose that hour? Is anybody keeping a check on it? A double check? MR, CHAIRMAN (Stagg): The clerk has - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: What was that, Sir? Just a second now, I am trying to get an answe.r from the Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg) : I do not know if the honourable member's coD111ents are facetious or not but we at the table are equipped with wrist watches as well as the clock on the wall. MR. NEARY: I am not trying to be smart, Sir. Last weekend the electricity was off in this building.

I do not know for how long but I was wondering if thatwere deducted from out time? I came in here - - 5y31-···

May 3, 1974, Tape 1493, Page 2 -- apb Morning last Saturday, Sir, and the power was off. MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Order please '. Shall 1701-01 carry? The honourable the Member for Labrador North: MR. WOODWARD: Before we carry 1701, I would like to have a few brief words to try and determine the type of policy that the minister has in his department and in his government concerning the connection or some type of provincial policy, We have,! suppose, a situation that is entirely different from most provinces in Canada because we are divided into two parts.

Although we are divided into two parts and we look very heavily to Ottawa for federal subsidies for the connection between the two parts of our province, it is indeed a provincial responsibility. The Province of Newfoundland and Labrador is one province although it is separated by water for some vast differences. Our people in the Labrador portion of the province are subject to some very heavy expenses when trying to communicate with or get to the island portion of the province.

I want the minister to tell this committee if they have any plans or policy in his department or government to bring in some sort of uniform rate for travel so that people can travel for the same distances for the same amount of money. I know that the type of travel that we have in Labrador is quite expensive during the wintertime. We have tried for a number of years to have a ferry link between the island portion of the province and Labrador so that people could transport automobiles down to the island during their summer vacations.

We have had no success so far and I understand that this year we will not be having a ferry service, We will be getting one additional, conventional vessel that is absolutely useless to us and will not suit the needs and the purposes of the people who want to travel. I was wondering what is the policy of the government? We now have,as I understand and with the take -over of BRINCO we have indeed probably taken over a number of miles of highway in Labrador. 5132

May 3, 1974, Tape 1493, Page 3 -- apb Horning I auspect that -ybe the minister can tell us if now the road from Esker to Churchill Falls and the Tote Road from Churchill Falls to Goose Bay will be taken over by his department when they indeed take over the Upper Churchill and they finalize the agreement with the BRINCO people. That road has been extended down to Goose Bay by way of a Tote Road and no doubt there is a need, an inaediate need for one bridge.

After that there will be, there can be and there should be an all-year-round-weather road from Goose Bay to the railroad at Esker, so that out people will be given the opportunity to travel from Esker down to Sept Isle in Quebec and then on their way to great parts of the mainland; if they cannot get any suitable transportation down to the island. Maybe the lliaister can tell ua what his policy is in that re•pect, or. will he continue on and say; "Oh no!

We do not want to accept the responsibility for those particular roads because they are going to coat .us a lot of IIOtley and we are going to have to do snow-clearing and .all this sort of thing. We are going to have to do the maintenance so we rather think that we will leave your people in the state of Limbo that exists today." It is a very unhappy situation. Maybe the minister can tell the coadttee,when he speaks again, Hr. Chainum, what his government plan . to do 1.n· thia respect. I would like to emphasize the fact that it is provincial.

It is not fecleral, The provincial govermient should connect those two,parts of the province. I do not want to get on highway conatruction but I think it is within the scope of this Heading~ the Hf.nister's Office, Mr. Chairman, that he should in •- way or another tell us why. Why? Although the federal govenment'have not said that they wiif.not spend any 11011ey on the Trans~Labrador Highway, this type of highway they say is a choice between the tran misaion lines .nd a highway across Labrador for the p eople who live there.

I underatand,from reading a report a couple of days ago in the papers, When the Minister of DUE, Don Jamieson - there is some 5133

May 2, 1974, Tape 1493 , Page 4 -- apb Morning doubt that we will get both projects or if both projects will be financed, I came out publicly and stated that the peop.le of Labrador should be consulted. I understand,in lookin g at the paper here today, that the Premier and the Minister of Industrial Development are meeting with some Japanese interests for the development of an aluminum plant and there were a couple or three places mentioned . The rumours that I have been hearing throughout the province are that we should possibly look very strongly at the Bay O'Espoir Area.

This is an area where the y will need that power from the Lower Churchill,to get it down into Newfoundland, ,:" ·l ~, ·:J .l. .., 4

>-{ay 3 , 1974 Tane 14Q4 (~orning) PK - l and if that power in any wav is goin!! to jeopardize the construction - well if the honourahle m:f.nister wants the rule of relevancy - if the ~inister of Finance want to do that, Mr. Chairman, he can - Mr. ROBERTS: We are talking ahout the p,overmnent's highway policy. I am talking about the minister's policy. I have had the onnortunity to read a, well a brief, brief if you want to call it that. lt was prenared by the minister's department and his counterparts in Ouebec.

It was a very, very weak presentation to Ottawa concerninF; - when you are looking for an exuenditure of some $460 million. It merely dealt with generalities,giving population figures and mileage figures and a route marked out in black lead nencil. There were no studies done. There was no money spent on making studies so that they could present a suitable presentation.

It was merely a couple of clerks sitting down in the minister's office or some place and drafted un a few statistics and say­ ing, "Look, take this off to nttawa and ask them for $460 million for a Trans Labrador Highway." Now that presents a number of problems, Mr. Chairman, maybe the greatest nroblem is the fact that we should not at all, when we think in terms of transnortation and economics, maybe we should not at all be looking this way.

Maybe our government because of the dif(erence, the great,vast difference that exists, although we are politically a part of Newfoundland and Labrador we should maybe,from an economic and the transportation point of view, look with and go the route that the Oueb~~ neople are already using. Extend the service that exist today from Montreal or Quebec City that is going into Blanc Sablon, extend that particular service all the way down the Lahrador r.oast as far as maybe Goose Bay and then continue on to Nain.

This is an area where maybe the economics are far better than dealing with the Island nortion of the province. I ·venture to say right now,that one of the great needs for a Trans Labrador Ri11;hwav is the fact that we should have a connection from the Forteau Area into the Goose Bav Ar.ea, so we can have a continuous supply of 11;oods goinr in to have that service running from Quebec into Blanc ~ablon, I think it goes for a period of maybe nine or ten months of the year without any interruption 5i35

~fay 3, 1074 Tape 1494 (MorninP.) PK - 2 from ice or anything else. So maybe rather than looldnp: at i:;ix months of the year or running a ferry serv:!ce out of Lewisporte or St. John's or runninp; the ty-pe of service that we are not.,, in the event that ,~e are not p:oinp: to p;et ~ , a hip:hway, '1r. Chairman, then we should look at extendinp: the service that is alreadv connected hy a body or a mass of land and gettinp; away from the nrovincial services and tyinp; into the Ouebec services.

This mayhe malres more economic fiense, if we are not going to spend any monev from a nolHical sense. .A.nparently, Sir, the Lahrador knot of some 40,nOO does not have much of a political impact on that administration on the other side of the Fouse. They do not seem to pav too much attention to I•hat the neopl e of Lahrador are sayinJ?. There is no aoubt that in Lahrador, Mr. Chairman, our people are researching different routes of transoortation. Thev are researching dffferent means of trani:;portation.

They are going as far as to research the nossihility of tying in to the Ouehec svstem hecause it will make more economic sense that :It is to be trading with the Island of !Jewfoundland. So these are the que,;t:1.ons that I would like the minister to answer. ~ayhe he can also tell us, I understand with this $100 vote that he has in the estimates, he can have h:!.s officials do some research in th:ls resoect. Rut it :Is an area - it is an area. Now then with the change over and take over of BRINCO, maybe we can utilize the existing road that I mentioned.

Maybe we can have a link where t.,e can reduce that transportation cost of some twenty-two cents a pound for fresh fruit and vegetables. The minister does not seem to , .. be that concerned about it but if he were huying fresh fruit and vegetable~ in Hanpy Valley and he naid a buck :<:eventy-five for a turn1.n or a buck thirty-three for a head of cabhap:e, maybe he would have a different feeling towards it, "Mr, Chairman.

So we t.10uld like to think in terms of this year; Mavhe with the province now controlling the Uooer Churchill and the goinp; ahead with the development of the Lower r.hurch:111, of upgrading the road from Goose Ray into r.hurchill Falls, the government taking over the existing road 5136

May 3. 1074 :PK - 3 which they already have jurisdiction of, from r.hurchill to fsker. Maybe this is the uav but we will not be tradln~ nor the 11rovincP. will not get any benefit from thl trade. Why should we be penalized in that portion of the province by trading with the Island when the cost is twenty to thirty oer cent more than it is here on the Island portion of the province?

So mayhe the minister can tell us that we should have a link wherelv we aan bring our fresh fruit and vegetahles and any other commodities of goods that we need into the railway line at Esker and then we can have it transoorted by truck on the year around basis into the conmunities of Churchill Falls, Happy Vallev and Goose Bay and maybe by further distribution by aircraft into the coastal communities. This is an area that we would like to !';et at. The other area that I am thinkin!'; in terms of, Mr.

Chairman, is the fact that in the event that we have not seen the provincial nolicy on highways, we have not seen any indication of the minister or his government making any attemnt to start a Trans Labrador Highway.

I have said on a number of occasions in this House. if we only had as much as $5 million maybe $7 million, $5 million to $7 million, just to make an attemnt,to ake an attempt to start that highway and then in turn go to the federal people and say, "Look,we have done our little bit, would you please help us·?" But there has not been one attempt other than a docmnent that was useless and weak and that was presented to Ottawa. The Minister of Finance I am sure would have th•own it into the waste paper basket if he had seen it; and set about to do something better.

The~e are the areas, these are the type of government policies that I would like to hear from the minister, Mr. Chairman. The other important thing as I mentioned before and I will repeat myself again, it is not a federal responsibility to connect, we are a nrovince. Sure the federal should assist but we are a province. That side of the border or the Straits of Belle Isle should have the same policies as this side of the Straits of Belle Isle. But what do get? There is not one damn cent in that budget for that 4,800 residents this year. AN Hor. Hr,,IBF.R: There is $lorl. 5131

'lay 3, 1~74 Tar,e 14!14 (!-!orninl!) PK - 4 MJI. }!OOnWARD: There i!l SlM. A,'! HON. ME'-11\F.R: Inaudible. tfR. WOODWARD: I W'.:1111,,ratch my languape. t wi.11 watch it very, very closelv. T •iill watch the honnurahle member when the estimates come ur, and the ~oodies come out and see what he is iet t ing in his district in hi~ hroads. AN TION. !'4P.!llf.lt: We never p.ot anythin~ :In tlolenty-t hree years. ''11. l"M"PAR TI : ''ay I h,we the opoortunitv. !fr. Chairman, may I have the onnortunitv - '!R. CHAIR~AN (S!AGC): nrder. please! MP. . wnonwA11n: No,•1r.

Chairman, t her e is not one cent in the whole of thi s budget for Labrador . The mini ster should -I have asked over a couole of years, thPre is not one iota for construction of highways . So is t hat the oolicY? I want the minister to tell us what his policy is. Well in the event that there is no federal money, well from here ·_unt11 eternity, turn around and say, "No, ve will not snend any money. '' Thf.s is the type of th:ln~ that he Rhould come out and tell the oeople of Labr ador . Tell them.

Say: "NoYe are not goinp. t o spend any money on the Trans Labrador l:lip.hway until such time as t he fed eral's a~ee to fund it.' Then we can in turn take our stand as to what we should do as far as that administration ar e concerned. Labr ador today iR in an utter s t ate of Limho, with a lack of oolicy. Labrador today is the same as the electrical - 5138

1'.ay 3, 1974 Tape 1495 (morning) . IB-1 The honourab]e Minister of Finance is going to promote industry in the island. There is no word of promoting industry in Labrador. We, if it comes to a choice and a showdown, Mr. Speaker, I suspect that you will see the residents of Labrador objecting to the government spendin~ $500 million or maybe more than $500 million no,.,, maybe as much as a billion dollars on a transmission line down to the island of the province to promote industry here when in turn that portion of the province is not even considered for major industry.

So, aaybe the minister can give us some of his views and not to be interrupted as the committee has heen continuously interrupted by a few backbenchers getting on their feet and adding nothing to the committee, Mr. rJtairman. Maybe the minister who we are paying and where he has got a ' vote in here of $34,000 - he is paid to develop policy by the people of this province - maybe he can tell the committee what his policy is as far as the road construction in Labrador is concerned, MR. MARTIN: I trust, Mr. Chairman, that the honourable minister has been keeping notes.

I rise at this time with apologies to the honourable member from Labrador North. I think what I have to say will support what he has said. I would like the minister to answer us both at the same time. We were both talking about government policy as it reflects upon Labrador, I have three or four questions which I will add to those put forward by the honourable member from Labrador North. I will be as brief as possible. I agree when he says we are going to get a scratch.

Regardless of whatever good will and co-operation mav emanate from the cabinet , and the ministers ·on the other .side, we are seeing no more than an extension of the policies that were followed by the former administrations. I do not blame this entirely upon the ministers of the cabinet because policy by and large is formulated by the civil servants and merely adopted by ministers. Since we have most of the civil servants who had formulated policies for the former admi.nistrat1on formulating policies now, we cannot expect to see any fundamental change. 5139

'May 3, 1974 Tape 1495 IB-2 As I have saic:l before, :If ~,e are !!etting anything more out of this cabinet than we have gotten out of other cabinets, it is strictly a matter of degree. We may be getting a few more dollars but that :Is all. I would like to start off and the minister can write down his questions: No.(

l) from my side of the fence: What is the government's policy on ferry service. There are two ferries that we are talking about here. The honourable member from Lahrador North dealt with the one between Goose Bay and Lewisporte, I would like to deal with the one in my district, between St. Barbe and Quebec. Now, contrary to what honourable members on the other side may think, Blanc Sa~lon is not a community of this province. Rlanc Sahlon is :In the Province of Quebec. Many times we hear them refer to everything on the Labrador from ~ain to Blanc Sablan. Well, let me set the record straip,ht, Mr. Chairman.

Blanc Sablon is across the border in the Province of Quebec. The ferry across the Straits of Belle Isle,much to our shame and disgrace,should be a provincial responsibility. It is a federal responsibility connecting two provinces. It is totally, totally inadequate. I do not think that we are asking too much, if this administration is sincere in saying that they want to bridge the gaps between the two sections of the province, to have a reasonable, sensible ferry service connecting Labrador with the Island of Newfoundland.

I would like the minister to tell us, not what he is goinp: tn do - I suspect that he is unable to do very much with the money at hand in this fiscal year - but I would like him to tell us what his policy is regarding ferries. The second concerns the upgrading of highways. I have listened to the members from St. Barbe and White Bay saying, w:!.th some justification on their part, that surely their ~ighway, the highway through their districts has got to be the worse in the province .

I think it was just that they forgot about the time when they were across the Straits and had to travel on that Red Bay - L I Anse-au-Clair

~ay 3, 1974 Tape 1495 IB-3 highway or perhaps they are right because this really does not deserve to he called a highway in the first nlace. It is merely an access road. It is nevertheless the main arterial road for one third of the people of the district of Labrador South between the connnunitics of L'Anse-au-Chair.on the border with Quebec,to Red Bay. It is true that a relatively small number. of vehicles use that road.

It is true that relatively speaking again there are not very many people living along that highway but to the people on that side of the Straits, that particular stretch of highway is just as important to them as any other stretch of highway is to any other portion of the population of this province. It is not enough, Sir, to say that we are going to get a couple of hundred thousand dollars for upgrading. That is merely holding the line. I do not think we will be out of line in insisting that this stretch of road be upgraded to at least the standard of the St. Barbe Highway across the Straits.

That standard is pretty low at the moment but if we could at least get our highway in Labrador Sou th upgraded to that standard, I believe tre should be making ·great progress. I would like the minister to tell us what his policy is. I aJD not asking that he detail what he intends to spend or where. What is his policy on the upgrading of roads in Labrador? I have heard many petitions presented for everything from upgrading of gravel highways to paving. Now, Sir, we in Labrador South have many priorities. We .know what our priorities are. Strange as it may seem, roads are far down the list of priorities.

We do not expect the minister to make great expenditures to link up the communities of Labrador South. We realize the impossibility of this overnight, over twenty years, over fifty years. There are other things that have to be done first. We would like to see some kind of an ongoing policy of construction so that when we finally get our highways we will know that the money that has been spent has been spent wisely. 5141

May 3, 1974 Tape 1495 We do not expect that we are goinr to get roads overnight hut we do expect that some of the tax dollars that we are raving for gasoline will he Sl'ent upon transportation. AN HONOl'RABLE MF.1-'BER: There are only thirteen memhers in the committee. Could we have a quorum, please? MR CHAIR1"AN: Ping the hells. 5142

- May 2, 1974, Tape 1496, Page 1 -- apb Morning MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): Would the clerk please count the House. We have a quorum. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. M.MAR.TIN: One cannot trust anyone these days. Mr. Chairman, when we are talking about provincial policy on transportation and communications, I would like to lay a couple of things in front of the honourable Minister of Trasnportation concerning the development of a transportation policy, a long-term transportation policy in Labrador. To reiterate: We do not expect miracles overnight.

We realize that it costs money but we do expect that they wfll at least have a plan. We have heard petitions presented for paving and for upgrading of all sorts. I received a petition from Paradise River, a little co-tmity at the head of Sandwich Bay. They were not asking for a road, they certainly were not asking for pavement, they were asking that the department make a tidy sum of $88,000 available to travel a bulldozer through the woods between Cartwright and Paradise River to open up a trail so that they might be able to get their snowmobiles through. That would keep them satisfied.

That is the kind of thin,: that we are talking ~bout, Mr. Chairman •. Back in the days of COllllldssion.of Government there was at least a policy of clearing trails and erecting shelters along the co~t, and it was a fairly good system while it lasted. Since confederation that has deteriorated to the point where there are no more trails and there are no more shelters,with a couple of exceptions. Most of our highways are.provided by nature,and that is fine.

But we would at least like to see some kind of a system whereby we know when we are going out for a htmdred or a hundred and fifty mile journey between two co1111111unities that if a blizzard should come along we at least can see the trail and if we have an emergency we can get into some kind of shelter. That to us would be just as impott:ant as the paved Trans-Canada Highway from St. John's to Port aux Basques. I do not think, that is asking fox too much, Sir. 5143

May 3, 1974, Tape 1496, Page 2 -- apb Morning I would ask the minister if perhaps he could include in his transportation policy a scheme for the clearing of trails between each community, for the building of shelters, for the construction of lightweight bridges (merely to hold snowmobiles crossing the brooks and streams) and that this be surveyed and built in such a manner that it could be upgraded over a period of time to become eventually dry-weather roads, access roads and finally, in some distant future, a highway system. That is the kind of policy we would like to see implemented.

I have some suggestions that I would be prepared - I will not bore the committee with it but I would be preapred to sit down with the minister and his engineers and discuss as to location and priority. In that same line, I would like to ask. that the minister consider establishing highways construction depots in a couple of other communities along the coast to take care of the annual construction and maintenance of trails and dry-weather roads. The problem is, Mr.

Chairman, when we go to the department and ask them for a strip of raod between point A and point B, they get their accountants and their engineers to draw up cost figures and they find that the cost is prohibitively high because it is necessary to get a contractor with his heavy equipment to go in an come out. The cost of transportation of heavy equipment in and out is the factor that brings the cost prohibitively high. It is not simply the construction work that costs, it is the transportation in and out.

Therefore, since the priorities are low and since we are talking about relatively unsophisticated trails and roads, we ask that the department station, in the first instance at least, in one community,in Mary's Harbour, a permanent depot with two or three tractors and a back-hoe and whatever, so that they can have an ongoing progra11D11e of road construction north and south from Mary's Harbour towards Lodge Bay, Red Bay out . towards Fox Harbour, back north towards Port Hope Simpson.

Every year we are caught up in this foolish federal government scheme of LIP and Winter Works and it is generally too late to get to

May 3, 1974, Tape 1496, Page 3 -- apb Morning work by the ti,ne the things are proven. If there could be some kind of arrangement worked out between the provincial and federal governments to have this kind of an ongoing programme so that the men could be hired for winter works when they get off fishing, to continue with the road building work until the weather makes them stop and then quit for the season.

This is a far more sensible way of spending public money than digging down through fourteen feet of snow to clear a stump, get ten feet cleared every day and then cOUle back next day and have to clear fourteen more feet before they can start going again on winter works. That is a stupid, silly waste of federal money, public money. I would ask the minister if he would include in his programme and in his policy the establishment of this kind of construction depot in several places along the coast. I think of n.o better place to start than ~ry's Harbour. The fifth question concerns that of air transport.

We have at the present only one airstrip in Labrador South. It cannot really be called an airstrip. It is located at Red Bay. It was built with a grant, I think from the provincial government some years ago~for a flying pastor who used a light aircraft to visit his pastoral charges. It is not adequate for the landing of any kind of aircraft that can carry any amount of freight or passengers. We need another twelve hundred feet added on to this strip to make it useable. Twelve hundred feet is not very much.

We have been trying without success to get the federal government to put in main airstrips in three other localities. We have not gotten very far. I think it is also a provincial responsibility to see that secondary airstrips are placed in the mller communities, because in the spring during breakup and in the fall during freeze-up we are left for a period of approximately two 1110nths with no way in or out,since the aircraft have to use either the open water or the frozen bays.

I would like to know whether or not there is a policy on airstrips, whether or not the minister does consider it a part of the .. . , 4-;-; .i :>

May 3, 1974, Tape 1496, Page 4 -- apb Morning res~onsibility of the Government of Newfoundland to take care of this kind of thing in Labrador as we are truly a separate part of the province,being made that way by government policy. While we are on airstrips I should like to point out too ·that last year we requested of the department a subsidy to allow a certain airline flying south from the Labrador Straits to continue that service. This service is used to bring in fresh meats, fresh fruits, fresh vege tables and this kind of thing, perishable goods on a sustained basis. 5.i4o

)fay 3, 1971,. Tane ll,97 C!orninr:) The trezsurv board apparently dickered for nany nonths. Finally it was approve<! but hv the tiTI'P. it was improved, wel 1 i.t was practically use-· less hecause three nonths had pone by when they could not brinp. in these articles. '.·!e are r.rateful 1 for what we P.ot hut it is a case of beinp a little too late. Those are all of the ~uestions I have. I have two nore connnents, one in sunnort of the rnem'ficrs froll' St. llar1'e anti White Bav conc.ernin?, t'"te Great Northern J>eninsul a Pighway.

I would ooi.nt out, Sir. that the Great 'forth em 'Peninsula Pip.hway is as irmortant to us, the Straits Area of Labrador South,as it is to those oeoole who live alonp. that highway because if we are cominl!: out of Lahrac!or <;outh we must use that. That is in fact our arterial hi~hway to Labraitor. The other thini,> concerns the coastal hnnt service. I realize it is feneral but it is being staffed h•1 people from the Island of New­ founi'J and. I think that is one of the reasons •?hy we itre get tin~ such poor service.

The 111emher fro!'I T.ahrador ',orth r,entioned that we should attel'!Pt to h;ave an extension of the fJuebec serv:!.ce comin~ down the :·lorth Shore and l'O all the wav tn 'lain.

I <lo not think I would he out of line but I can say that we are un<lertakin,,- to nc!"otiate with Ar.;ency ' 1riritir,e to see whether or not thPv wil 1 inclurlp Lahraclor norts as their nnrts of cal 1_ :tnrl to encoura~e our ),115inessl'!en to establish economic ccmtact •••ith people in Sept I] es an-l )<r'ltreail so th'1t we will l•e ,lP.al In~ "" t1'e r.11] f instec10 o~ <lown the 'lort 11c:ist Co,ist ?.nd the ·:nrth1-1est r.o?.st "" "8"'"n11nc.'.] an<". . r think i ~ "e cnn est?.hl i,sh ti,is ,-.,e, ,:-1!] 1 hai.r~ ";"T1 11c~ hette-c- cont .:J.c t ~ Tn closi.P'."' T w0nl,l inst ask the ninister if hf' c.an,witl,0ut giving "'"'"-Y any tra<le sPcrPts. exnlain to 11s what is ~overnr1ent policy on roads, on air strips and on water transportation? !-ffi.

F. ROTTF: "Ir. Cr.airman. hefore the 'llinistc-r answers the questions -- - - - m1t to him hy the menher for L.1rn1dor <:outh, l woulrl J ike to stan,1 :,nn <;11»nort everytl-iing that the '"'P:"ih er for Lahra,~or '-outh hns .s,;:i r!. T ,1o se <'l•in'."' nor,i_.,..;-, t-i on for .1 1,\i s trict whicl-i "i 11 ta1·e :l.n t'i f' verv

section 5147

• T,me J 4<:7 (l'orninr) RH - ?. of L11braclor that 1u1s t he nresent road. T sti] 1, Sir, sticl · tC' r.iy oririnal i=itate!"ent that the Great '.Torthern Penins1ila l' i r.hwav is the worst hi1:hway in this Province, the mainlancl

section and the island section,because I 1-\ave had the exucrience of travel ling over the so-called roa,1 in Labrador South '1.nd it rea lly cannot he classified as a road at all. As a matter of fact, 'Mr. C~ud rmm, when my colleap,ue fro!'l Whit:e Bay 'iouth and myself were travell inr the road by car between Pinware am' Red Bay, each one of us refused the other to drive the car over that particular road he- cause it was such a frip:hteninp ex!)erience. It is an extremely danF:er- ous situation. I understand that this

section of road is bein!!; usecl by school buses which takes kids back and forth to school to the hip:h school in Forteau. Sir, it is an obstacle course and it is an extreme danger to the lives of. the students. Only one other point, <;fr, I would like to make this point. If the Premier is sincere in tryinf' to establish a union, a true uniC'n between the mainland and the Island portion of our Province, I think it can he hetter done by establishing a reasonable, physical transportation link between th!? Island portion of the Province and the Labrador

section of our Province through a reasonable road on the Great Northern Peninsula through an adeouate ferry service between St. Barbe and a community on the Newfoundland si<le of Labrador, not the Quebec side,and reasonable docl'.ing facilities for the ferry service. I think this would P,O much further in establishing a true union, a true link between the. two portions of our Province than simply giving , Labrador three and one half seats or a split seat, the Straits of Bell Isle,which would coI11prise of what is now St. Barbe North and part of Labrador South.

I do not know whether the member for Labrador South meant to mention an item contained in the Royal Commission Report, whether it slipped his mind or whether he intends to bring it up later . P.e will make that point later. So, Mr. Chairman, I will not make that point. I voul<l like to say that I do support the member for Labrador South for ohvious reasons an<l that if a true union is going to be established 5148

May '3. l<:17t,. Tape l497 (Morninp) RH - 3 I can see no hetter way than providing an acleouate. physical transportation service be~•een these twn portions of the Province. AIi HONOURABLE MEMBER: - ----- Mr. Chairman, nerhaps - 1ffi. CTIAIR:'!Af! _ (~tagp) : If the honourable member would permit. T vould like to welcome to the galleries today from Whitboume Central Hii?h School in H'hitbourne f.ifty-four grade VII and VIII students with their teachers,Mr. Gosse antl •~rs. Delahunty.

On behalf o~ all honourable p.entlemen I welcome you to the galleries today and trust that .your visit here "'ill be interestinr, anrl informative. The honourable the mel'tber for F'ogo. 'IR. Ii. ,.r. 1-TINSr')R: I am not ROing to present tt·e honourable minister with wy few ouestions at this time but T was wonderinc,: if he is r,oinr, to cleal with the nnlicy of ferry and air strips hecause I rln not !See the point of the minister havin~ to po all over it a~ain. If he is J?Oing to real with it now ~then I would sup,;,;est to hi.tr1 that T have the prohle~ in F'O?O ~!strict.

T ,u,, sure the T'linister is a,,mre of the ferry service to Chanae TsJanrl aml the rond across to Chani,e Islands to enable " better ferrv service. ~o t~1at is the ferey service. The Foi,o service ! t •hin1: . is o,-,erati n~ ve!'v ,,reJ] an•~ rhe!'e are no corml aints there except rlurinr. thE' winter sea,;on.

Thm there is the matter of air strips, If there be a policy on air strips, then I t'iink the !T'inister should deal with I1hat is roinr. to hapncn in the ?e.neral policv in such "lace:; as Chan<'e Tslancls anrl For,o 'Island whe.n• at certain tic"e.s of the yec1!', esneci.ally this time of the year ,-Jhen they arc unable to Oflerate on sc1ie,htle 1'ecause o~ ice conc'.f tions, an idr ,;tri,:, will "rnvit!e the npor,le ,,,1th some l~inrl of service. Bearing in.

Minrl of cc,ur,;e that :It :Is ven• e:<nensive to travel by air craft ,mc1 the ..,inister throurh his office ,lirl arramre . last year an,1 the year t,efore 1:or subsi,!y, but this thini;,: would lmve to he liorn in ~ind beca\\se peonle cannot use aircraft for nr1vate transnortlation to and from the Tslanrl. ~o if the ninister 1-,ou]j pive us a ~eneral nolicy of air strips 5149

1'a'le 1497 (~'nrn inr,) RP - 4 and ferry s<'rvices tl1en that would save hoth him ancl myself . !-!R. CHAIRMAN (1'ta p,p..) : The hono,n:ab-le t he ?-linister of Tran s portation ancl Cnm~uni catio ns . ml . T. P . R1CY.EY: ~ft:. Chairm an, possihly t i;houJ .<l de.Al wit h the points raise.cl hy the honourablP. Member for Labrador South as the items hv lar~e that he raised are interestinv. ones , positive type sugpes t ions and so on. lli.s first question was "llhat 1s our policy on f erry service'?· · As the mernher for f'or.o ,;,entionecl this ao!)lies to him as we.lJ .

May I say that we have a Director of Transo ortation in my rleparti:tent, the per son of Mr. Ed . {l ' llri en, anrl possibl y it has been one of the busiest civil servant development services in the oast year. His visits to mainlan d p~rts have been somethin 2 more than once a week for the whole y ea·r. In fact so much so that one !!'an is j ust not caoable of dealinj!: with t his whole area of transport ation . !"or t he firs t time, Mr. Chairman, a real effort. i s being made by this ROVernment in the entire area of transportation. Could we have a quorum, plea s e ? MR. CHAIRMAN: Do we have a quorum? 51 50

May 3, 1974 Tape 1498 (morning) IB-1 MR. CPAIIWAN ("R. STAGr.): For the benefit of visitors to the galleries today, the procedure which we are now going throurh is a procedural matter whereby there must be fourteen members in the committee at all times. That is to constitute a quorum whereby the committee, in this case the Committee of the Whole, may transact the business of the House. Consequently, we are now ascertaining whether there will be fourteen members to carry on the business of the committee. We have three minutes in which to gather that number around us. Order, please! We have a quorum.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Do they have to be seated to have a quorum? MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. STACC.): Order, please! While the committee during the three minute recess may have certain other formalities which are not observed, when the committee ts in session it is desirable that honourable members reswne their places and not wander aimlessly over the chamber. 1\ffi. HICKEY: ~Ir.

Chairman, as I was saying the government for the first time since Confederation is making a real effort in the whole general area of transportation to pinpoint the problems and to develop policies such as the member for Labrador South so adequately pointed out. The whole purpose of the exercise, ~r.

Chairman, is to pin down the real problems and to provide a kind of representation on behalf of this government in this province at the federal level with vari6l1S committees and agencies, departments and what have you so that the plight of the people of Labrador and the other isolated parts of the province and indeed, Mr. Chairman, the entire province . is determined and put forward in~ most forceful fashion. ~r. Chairman, it would be rather ludicrous for me to attempt or to indicate to this committee that there is a final package in terms of transportation policy.

I am sure, in fact I believe that the member for Labrador South recognized that and indicated that this is not what he is looking for today. I do just want to say that this whole area is heing worked at, is being pursued vigorously. I and my department hope in the very near future to add some additional staff to the nivision of Transportation 51!,l

May 3, 1974 Tape 149'! IB-2 As I indicated earlier, it is impossible, it is a completely impossib+e task for one man. My department has the blessing of government tn this. effort. We hope in the not too distant future to add to our division so that we can even make a more meaningful effort than we have during the past year, in the months that lie ahead. With regards to the first question of the honourable member for Labrador South in connection with ferry service. The ferry that he refers to, ~r. Chairman, I am quite familiar with.

Let me say to him that the enti.re ferry service throup;h all parts of the province is being Pursued with the federal authorities, those ferries that come under federal jurisdiction or receive subsidies from the federal p;overnment as well as provincial ferries, for ~•hatever might be obtained or whatever might he forthcoming by way of assistance of one kind or another, all directed, Mr. Chairman, in an effort to improve what can only be classed as a most inadequate service at the present time. Mr. Chairman, I do not hesitate to accept responsibility for the level of service at the present time as such.

As the minister responsible, I do not hesitate for a moment but, Mr. Chairman, I do not have to point out to the conunittee I am sure that we are attemptinp; to pick up, to try and rectify and correct what has gone on for a long time,which is basic neglect of this very vital service to a great number of our people. t do not propose to be a miracle worker nor docs this administration. Therefore, it is only natural to assume, Mr.

Chairman, that solutions will not come overnight, arc not available overnight and indeed to suggest it or in fact to accept such solutions.in the long-range, in the lonp; - term would be just pure chaos because it is a verv involved problem,generally speaking. The member for Labrador South referred to Rlanc Sablon and brought to the attention of the committee that that community is not a part of this province. Mr. Chairman, it is very appropriate that the member did. I am not sure how many people realize that. I attempt to do the same thing at every opportunity. ''r. Chairman, if there be 5152

May 3, 1974 Tape l.4Q~ IB-3 anything ·that gans me as a Newfoundlander, it is to find that in order to travel from the island part of this province to Labrador one embarks fr0111 Newfoundland and goes to Quebec. in order to get to ·the other

section of the province. Surely, 'IKT, Chairman, this administration cannot be blamed for that. I do agree that if it were to continue indefinitely, by all means we would h><ve to ·accept blame:• 1-fr. <'hairman, we are attempting in a very real wey. Th.ere have been discussions. There have been negotiations on this very problem, this very ferry service that we refer t.o. The Director of Transportation, as I said, ts very much 1.nvolved in this whole ;1rea, We hope that within the coming year. at some P?int to be able to de·termine at least to a reasonable extent a policy with regar~s to ferry service.

I can assure the honourable member for Labrador South and indeed the honourable 111e11lber for Pogo and every other honourable membe.r who has in his const:i.tuency a ferry service, cm the one hand that has federal involvement or on the other hand that it is purely provincial, that the whole question ts heing looked into an.d discussed and studied. To thin!<. or to suggest that a s.ol ution fc:ir one is the answe.r. certainly to my mind is not correct. There has to be 11n overall 5.1. 53

Tape l4Q9 ('lornin~) RT: - I policy for ferry service throughout this T>rovince be it the Labrador

section or the l slan-1. "''ds, •~r. Ch1tirman, is what we Rre working tmv'ards. There is the ouestion for example with rep,ards to the ferry ser­ vice as to, esneci.ally the one to the Labrador section, the time it operates. not to mention the hoat itself, the service it provirles, how lon~ it onerates, the effort that is beinp made to keep it operatin~.

I am sure the me1"tber for Labrador South will agree with l"le that somethinr, better can her.one to keeP that ferry operatinr longer, for a longer l'eriod of time at least during each year than has h1tppened in the past. ('e hav.e nade rerrcsentation and we are continuinr t_o nake re!'re­ sentation to the Canadian Hater Comnittee.which is !'art c,f the CTC, expressin~ our concern about this, our complete OPposition to the kin,1 of service that is heing provided, as we are making representation to the same organization with regards to water ferries under their iuris­ ,\iction such as the one the honourable memher for Fo<>o just mentioned.

With regards to that particular one, for the benefit of the honourable member for Fogo, I shoul-1 point out that I have held discussions with a number of people on that ferry service, the ferries to Change Islands, and there is a ouestion, Mr. Chairman, of re-routing the ferry insofar as Change Islandi, is concerned. ·T·!heth~r that is a practical thing to do or not yet remains to he seen.

The. peonle ,seem to have a very genuine case and -presently we are attewnting to investigate and to verifv the points made by those people that " to re-route that ferry would faciliate the operation much longer and much more often during the year especially during the winter months when under the present system from where it operates we are being asked to provide air subsidy which, as the member for Fogo pointed out, is not necessarily an adequate service anyway as it can only take freight and passengers as such. So, Mr.

Chainnan, I think it is safe for me to say and I think that at this moment the most I ca.n say, the department being new, having only had the past year to attempt to work at this problem,is that the entire 5154

'!;iy 3. 1117t,. Tape ll; 0 9 (Morning) Rll - 2 question is in hand. It is hein~ worked at. It will continue to be nursued and hopef•11ly ,md we are honcfnl that durin~ the comin~ yeaT.' we will make the kind of in-roads which will rnal•e oossible at least some kind of statement of oolicy with regards to this kind of service. "ossibly, while t am on ferry service. it mi1>,ht be wise to deal with air services an,1 air striosi; ~fr. r.riain,,,m, the same thin::t apolies ¥ith re!'ards to air service, landin~ strins and air subsidy. A~ain ny clepartment, the persqnsof ~•r.

O'Rri.en an,' myself, have l'l'lrle stronP, renresentations to the Feder;il r.overnmer,t with regards to air services throuP:hout the "rovince, throu!!h ~!OT. '·'e were due to 70 to !·foncton a 1ittle while avo, a few weeks a:--:n. ''e had to cancel out. '.le just could not make it becanse of the stri!,e. l'e hor,e to visit r~oncton and to sit t!o•m and tliscuss,in some -letail wav, :itr services with rei,ards to the whole Province. the question of 11ir suhsf,'ies. the ouestion o" ] 'Ind- in!". stri.ns,. Tn terr,s nf n no11.c:r, ~lr. Chairman.

T th:!.nl.'. -1.t 1s fair to say ~ "ener.,l •··-~.v .It ~:i.nnrit,obvi011,s],,, !:it- aPn11Pcietc s' in ~f!tt1.il until final "iscn!'<si.ons hnve taken ,-,1 ace ann until such til'le as sOl'le a,=!'.reement is l'lade with the l'e<leral Government in teTI"s of what assistance may be forthcon.inp. '."he noJicy of this povernr,,ent, ''r. r.h,drr,an, 1s nuitP cJear and that is to imnrove · air seriices 2nn to i1'lnrovP the role o• the third 1.eveJ carrier throu~'iont this "rovinae, tn wor 1-: strPnunuslv ann with .~_1_1 of the vi~or th<1t is Possi.1a1e to re,.o,,e isCDlation. to increase th.e n•nber r,f :iir strins,in the isolated arear: especial Iv. to Rttach so"1c nrioritv to the air strips th:it ·-,e wcmlc1 ,lo Pi rst versus ot1•cr. areas. '-f!'?.. fl.

"AR'T'TN: noes t'ie -:>rovincial r.overnmcnt :tccept the resnonsibility ------- f'rir the r,rov:f sion of. air strins or ~oes the 0 rovincir!l rovernr-Pnt loo le unon this as a >'e,:leral resr,oni::ihilitv? 'fl'.. 111<1'.EY, lfr. ChaiT111an, I sunpose nne woulrl say thnt wherever we r.,:m. wherevPr WP feel we have a case we ~-•oul-1 1,one to convince the "eneraJ r.overn..,ent that thev are res;1onsihl e. /o.s the honom:-able member kno,-.,s

''ay 3, 197l,, Tane 1499 (Mornin~) RP - 1 evPry dolJ.sr thot we c:,n es~v,. rrnvinciallv :neans tl,nt we c,an direct i.t to some other area where it is vHallv neec1ecl. A roUcy with rep:ards to total responsibi] ity is nnt yet cletemi.necl. This hopefully wil] be acconnlishecl,again <lurin~ the cominp year. I think it is fair to sav that we :ir.e clear. on a number of points. cer.tRinlv we ar.e much !'lore knnwlerlpi>ah]e now than ,,e were let ufl sav six months ar.o. It will den encl on just what t!1e Federal Government's decision is.

The Federal Government acknowlenge that they have resnon­ sihility to a certain clel"ree. Pe are sayinr. to them on the other hand that we feel their responsihil ity is r,,uch greater. or at least i ~ not responsihi.lity for takin!' the initiative,responsihility to provide funds so that the Province may nrocee<l to develon such air strins. This. Hr. Ch11.irroan. is all heing work eel at with the hope that a clear-cut no] icy can be estahlisheci. I t!-iink it would he wrone: for me to say in detail what we feel the resnonsihility is at this point in time.

I cio not wish to ieopardize the discussions that are presently taking place. Certainly I can say that in our orinion the Federal Covernment have much more resnonsibility than up to a few months ago they had acknowledged. I think I can also say that their attitude has improved somewhat.

So I am hopeful that we will be ahle to reach an apreement with re!!'ards to the devel.onment of additional air strips, the provision of navir,ational /lid~ li!!'htin:?; systems for existinr. and new air strips, an ap;reeMent to cover air suhsi<lies throughout the "Province wherever reouired and when­ ever re<]uired. '-'hile on the matter o.f air subsidies, Mr. Chai man, in connection with what the member for Labrador South ha<l to say with rep:arc-ls to the most recent request, our most recent involvement by way of air suhsj~y.

I can to some extent agree with him that it is so necesscry to have a c]ear-cut policv for. air suhsitlv so that when the need arises •~e can move into hip;h r.ear, 5156

:-tay 3, 1974 Tape No. 1500 I hear so to sp15ak~and very quickly implement that subsidy so that the people whom we are providing the subsidy for, be it directly or indirectly, receives the benefit then and NM - 1 not necessarily have to make an individual decision on each and every one.

I assure the honourable ;n,2moer that I agree with him totally, that the p.overnment agrees, that this is beinr . pursued, that a clear cut policy will be annunciated in regards to air subsidies and hopefully at the saTT1e time an agreement ,,ith the fet!era] p.overnment by way of their participation from the financial point of view. ,,1r.

Chairman, the mem.bc>r for L:-ibr:1dor South wi s.u's to know the policy of upr.:radinr, highways in the Area of Lahrador, I want to assure ;·1ir. tt1at our policy for uprrading the P.::istinr, roads in Labrador is simi 1 ar tn the pol ic:: on the i c:land part of the r,rovtncf' - absolutely no diff P.rcnce.

If ""'-'thin'.'; '~" ;ir"' indeed anxious and determined to do everythinp. we can, as quick as we can, because we realize the condition that• especially the road in his area, the condition of it, the problem that it presents in the winter.which is similar to lf not worse than , the sections of the C:reat :fortliern Peninsula. There is no t!ifference, ''.r. Ch;iirrn;m, no difference in tems of priority, no <lifference in policy of lll'f,radin~. \,le are determined to cs quickly as riosaible proviJc the sa!!'e service, the same level or the sa,:ie stanclar.d 1-1herever possible.

He r,ientione<l the road to ':eel r.ay as did thP. honourable ,rv.e··:ber for St. llarbe :lorth. I would be less than honest if I did not ap.;ree with both of them. Having travelled over the road,I think it is fair for me to say ti,at the road to ':e<l Bny should have never been there in its present route or present loc.1tion. That is water unclcr the briclge. It is there and there is not very much 0ne can do at t ;1is point in time without a huee; e;,,.pem1iture or certainly a larr,e expenditure of funds. A nunlier of questions come to mind 5157

'!ay 3, J.')i I, Tape :;o . 150') L>efore one zec:s lnto heavy expe nditure wi t h rcr,arc'~ to rer nutill .. t h,'lt roa d or 1,1akinr, tllC' c!1ang"cs in it that ar-, necess.iry. '.\!! - 2 1 t is ']Uite conc civ.iblc, ' Ir . Chairma n, that

section of road l>e tied into the Trans l..nbr.1Jor !lin ln,ny. This is one of til e renSO"nS that we nre no:; quit!.' clear at chL"l poi nt in time as to wi1at J ixection we should zo or what course we should pursue in terms of makinr the kind of improvem2n ts in that road that arc necess ary. Again, ~lr . Chairman, an item which I neglected to mention with regards to c!,e !erry chat runs to l.llanc ~ablon, the Community of Red llay, wh.ich has a harbour , accordin g to fairly r eliable source$, which ls :inst adequate.

T:1ere is the sugl!,cs tion hy a ~re at number of people tha t if that fern· O1Joi:.1tctl from Reil Bny i.t would operate in smoother water. be able to operate. I can as!'>urc the honou r able member for l..ao>"rador South that coMider~tion has hecn r,iven, this whol e are a !in,; heen looked into, a ny relocatio n of that ferry. r think it is fair to say thnt this ROvernment "isb anc! l>elie ve that it s hould be re"locate tl so th:it 1,1hen you travel from within the province at leas.t you land in your own province.

Any relocation of that fer ry will onl}' he do11e after a thorough investi gation of all possible por ts . J would soy t o the honourable me.,,ber fo r Labrador South thnt Red llay is very high on that list , so is the question of t he Trans Labrador !lighway . At present the proposed route again of the community of Red Bay i s :tlso a matter of discussion, a matter of study at the moment . The honourable member asked another question about linking up the_ communit"ies in his consti tuency because they were in Labr"ador p,enerally.

I c,in agree with him that this is necessary and tell him that t here need be no doubt in his mind,that this government recogru?.e this too. I can tell him tbat I aj'!ree wholeheartedly with his sur,gestion of trails opening up those communities and that those trails should only 5.158

'1'ay 3, 1974 Tape ~o. 1500 be opened up after some kind of survey by my engineering staff is done,to determine a future role so that there is no waste of funds. As the honourable member mentinned, even if a bulldozer were to cut through a trail wherein people can travel until such time as it is possible to link a community NM - 3 by means of road, at least the trail is there, the route is there, we know what the terrain is like, we have some idea of cost. At least the~e is some systematic approach, some kind of Round policy fer the future.

I assure him that this is in line with out thinking and he is dead on and I would hope that before too long and I indeed would welcome the opportunity to sit down and discuss it with him, with my officials. He mentions a matter of shelters on such trails for people who have to travel by ski-do and I think this is a reasonable point as well. The honourable member mentioned the location or the establishment of small depots. This, Mr. Chairman, is something which we are looking at at the moment..

There might well be, in some areas at least, tied in with the kind of shelter the honourable member refers to for the travelling public. At the moment, Mr. Chairman, we have four districts in the province in terms of my depart111ent, four regional district, directors or regional direetors. They are more regional than district. I would prefer to say regional directors. I can tell the honourable gentleman that serious consideration has been given to creating a fifth. This would be of interest to the member.; for St.

Barbe North, White Bay North, those people who have problems, as we have problems,in keeping l:he roads open and so on. Some of our district directors have too much territority to cover for our supervisury staff. It is clear to us that it is necessary to increase the number,to create a new region. Certainly I would lean very heavy towards the Labrador secti.or: and another sectfon to make up that fifth. I think that this would go

part 5159

May 3, 1974 T-ape No. 1580 of the way to solvinit a lot of the problems which we have to come to .grips with and which are not very easy to find solutions t o u nder the presen t system. It is not a matte'r, Hr. Chairman, of just adding staff. It is not a matter of making it easy for someone. else. It gets right down to the level of service that we "are able to provide. Some of the rer,ions as 1 have indicated that our dis trice directors have to cover and our supervisory staff have to cover there are just too many miles to go and we are looking seriously at reducing., and the overall managing of 51 tiO

May 3, 1974 Tape No. 1501 N!'i - 1 the whole province by the creation of a fifth district. I think, '{r. Chairman, ~hat is about all the questions the member for Labrador South raised. ile mentioned the coastal boat service. I can say to him that while this is under federal jurisdiction, again my department is as heavily involved as we can be with Canadian National. There is a committee set up of which Mr. O'Brien is a member. There have been a number of meetings. It is being set up on the basis of regular meetings. Again, Mr.

Chairman, I do not want to belabour the point but I think it has to be said that for the first time, the very first time in this province, something very meaningful and some real effort is being put into the entire area, the general area of transportation. All that can come from this, !1r. Chairman, . is good, because there is so much to be done, the whole matter of freight rates, transportation problems ~enerally which heretofore received only lip service and in most instances not even that. So, Mr. Chairman, I hope I have adequately answered the questions as raised by my honourable friend.

If not, if I have missed any, if he wishes to raise them again I shall be most happy to deal with them. I think I have covered them all. Mr. Chairman, I will attempt to deal with the points made by my honourable friend from Labrador :forth. The member for Labrador North wanted to know what our policy was with regards to travel, transportation in terms of travel, travel to and from Labrador. What I am sure the honourable member is aware,is we provide certain subsidies to air service. Admittedly some of this took place prior to our taking office.

The whole question of transportation.as I have indicated in answer to the honourable member for Labrador South, is being pursued. Labrador is, while it may appear, ~Ir. Chairman, on the surface, because we do not continue to make announcements about Labrador, if the honourable member is of the opinion that Labrador and the problems related to transportation are in a vacuum,then I assure him he is 5161

'lay 3. 1974 Tape No. 1501 Nl1 - 2 very wronp , because many of our problems in the area of transportation, many of the crises, the emergencies that arise in this province certainly are related, are in Labrador. i!o one, "Ir. Chairman, can honestly say that this administration has paid lip service to Labrador. Ifo one can say that , that is not correct. It is not a valid statement. There has been more done, Mr. Chairman, and while there are many, many problems to be solved and a r.reat deal to be done yet, there has been more effort hy this government than any previous one.

There has been more recognition and I am the first to say that recognition is not the answer to the problem, but it is important, Mr. Chairman, to a lot of the people who live in thr.t

section of this'province more recor.nition and more awareness by this administration than ever before. I can ap:ree with the member for Labrador South,or the member for St. llarbe North I think it was, who said that under redistribution, by creatin~ another district which will span the Straits, that does not bring Labrador into the province. Of course not. It is not meant to do that, 'Ir. Chairman. It will help. It will help. Certainly we do not propose to say that it will solve the problem of that body of water or the transportation problems that are connected therewith.

It is just another step, another example of recognition to Lahrador, which is Jong ovc,rduc, l~r. Chairman. The member for Labrador 1forth referred to the roaJ to F~J.:r,r _jn Cilurchi ll F'alls .. in r.oose hay. He 11ants to know if the province intends to take it over. Wrll, '.Ir. C~1airrnan, ,111 roads in the province. to rr,y knowled~c, are provincial roads. They !'lifht wel 1 110., s,,a,eonP else might itavc some responsibility for th<'!::' at a partjcular perj ,:-..-' of tice.

I am sure tl1e honour ab 1 e "1!'mber realizes that thP ,]c,vr• 1 op,.,ent of tl1e Lnwcr f:!lllrd1il l, t1ta t the area in question js vital to tl,at clevelcirr.1ent. ,/ork ci:rn to be done for that dPv 0 loppien t. T an: still unsure, '1r. Chairman, as to whether the honourable member is in favour of the Trans -Labrador Highway or whether :1e is 5162

'lay J, 1974 Tape No. 1501 :;1-1 - J not. I regret that I iiave to say that but this is exactl 1 the i.-ay he comes across. r,ec;iuse on t 11e one hand he points up the nC'cr's of the neople of Labrador !,y ,,uy uf transportatj_on problems, on the other ham'! i,e l,:,vels a blast at this administration by nretending to know what has ::cone on iu relation to the Trans-Labrador I want to tell the honourablc gentleman that he does not kno,,. lie ltas; not the fo;.'.gicst notio11. H?,. :JUOD\liAr.n: :;o one else does. '.C:L liIC,Q:Y: I ,io. riis eovernnent does. The people w110 s!1ould h,ow do.

The federal sovC'rnment i\.no\/cs now. T,,e Province of Quebec knows. ''r. Chait"T",an, let :ue say to the honourahle p.:cntleman; I would like 1=-0 be in good for,, today liP.cause it riled me a llttle bit when sor,eone with t:,e intellirence that ti1e ,,oaourable r,cntleman has, who knows better, to stand in th;is llouse and in liansard on April 9 and arain toc:,ay says and I will r1ot read it. I have read it. I have digested it. It has turned my stomach so I cannot forret it.

So 1 quote it from memory, ''A couple of clerks determined a pro!'osal, a joint proposal on behalf of the two provinces of ~uebec and ::-Jewfoundlami, in recmes tinr. fed.,ra l assis.tance for the Trans -Labrador h i13hway, '' :,r. Chairman, there are no words to describe that statenent. If there are, Sir, they are unparliamentary and I will not use them. I do not knm·1, as I said earlier, I run at a loss to know what the honourable mcnher, what mileage he hopes to r:ain, what point he wishes to make, what he hopes to acco1aplisi1, because this road, 1[r.

Chairman, is vital to the honourable gentleman and ltis people, just as vital, Mr. Chairman, as lt is to the member for Labrador South. The honourable zentleman says he read that proposal and I say to him now,he did not. i{e made us his statement _on April 9. I bad personally delivered that joint proposal the r,revious Friday, which was just three days before. !low does the honourable gentleman explain that? How does he? Re was in this !louse on ':onday. The offices were closed Saturday and Sunday. :•r. P,or.ipkey did not have it. 5163

Hay 3, 1974 Tape No. 1501 Ail HO:/. '11:''bi.:R: Inaudible. MR. mc;,;J:Y: Mr. Rorn-pkey did not h:ivc it. '.·lr. Jamieson did not have it. No one !lad it. . .'\N HOiL 11E'.1TIER: Inaudible . :::-! - 4 'ffi. ll1Cl.:~Y: Mr. Chairman, I know whercfrom I sneak. I have been on this project sinCf~ day one, 5.164

May 3, 1974 Tape no 1502 Page l - MW last July while the honourable member says that two clerks preparec that. I would like to tell him that I consider that an insult, a complete insult, Mr. Chairman, which is unforgivable, not to me but to the people who work long and hard in both provinces to develop that proposal that is a complete insult, What is more, Mr. Chairman, I would like to stay around this Chamber for a little longer so I will not say what comes to me right away. That statement is totally untrue.

The honourable gentleman haa either deliberately misled the committee.If he has, then he should be asked to do something about it, or he misled the committee through ignorance of the whole question. It is either one or the other, What he says, Mr, Chairman, is totally false. It is untrue, Is he a miracle man? Does he fly to Ottawa and open the offices, the federal offices and break in and read a document? That document was delivered hy hand! It was delivered by hand, by me! MR. WOODWARD: I have a copy of it. MR. HICKEY: The honourable gentleman has a copy of what? MR, WOODWARD: Of the document. HR.

HICKEY: Who did the honourable member get a copy from? Was it Mr. Gallean, the member for the north shore, which includes the area of St. Agustines? Is that who the honourable gentleman got a copy from? MR. WOODWARD: Yes. MR. HICKEY: He did not get it from Mr, Jamiesion because Mr, Jamieson did not have it. He did not get it from Mr. Rompkey because Mr. Rompkey did not have it, He certainly did not get it from Mr, Marchand because he did not have it. AN HON. MEMBER: The honourable gentlemen is only bluffing. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Chairman, Mr, Gallean is the only gentleman outside, who is a member of the National Assembly in the Province of Quebec, the negotiating team made up of officials and the two ministers who had access to that document even in its preliminary stages, AN BON, MEMBER: There is a leak in the honourable gentleman's department. 5165

Hay 3, 1974 Tape no, 1502 Page 2 MR. HICKEY: I have no leak in my department, I know where there are a few leaks on that side though, If the honourable gentleman is going to stand here and tell me that he read the document that I delivered, then he has a leak himself. MR, WOODWARD: (Inaudible). MR. HICKEY: Mr, Chairman, that document was worked at, the necessary detail was provided, it is not just a small brief. MR, WOODWARD: _MR. HICKEY: MR, WOODWARD: MR, HICKEY: Fourteen - pa,;es, Fourteen pages? (Inaudible). Mr.

Chairman, I do not wish to make this honourable committee a gambling committee but would the honourable ~entleman, when he steps o.utside the Chamber, like to put some money where his mouth is, Would he like to lay $500 on that? l know he has money to burn but if he wants to t•ke me up, he is on, He has himself a deal, Mr. Chairman. I will produce that document and show him that it is not fourteen pages, It is far from it. It is not just a small brief.

It is not an inadequate brief, It is a well-prepared, researched and developed brief which clearly states the advantages, the great advantages of that road to both provinces. The honourable gentleman has the unmitigated gall to stand here and mislead this committee and its members, his own constituents and indeed the people of this province, It is dispicable, Mr. Chairman, Dispicable is the only way that it can be described. Does the honourable gentleman think he is making political hay? He is not. The honourable gentleman is only harming himself. Mr.

Chairman, I would suggest that even the people in his own district at the moment do not know where the honourable gentleman stands in terms of the Trans Labrador Highway. MR. WOODWARD: Tell us how far the $100 is going to go , MR, HICKEY: The honourable gentleman need not make jokes about the $100. Is he not familiar with estimates? Was he not a minister of the crown r.: ·) 6-­v .1. o

May 3, 1974 Tape no. 1502 Page 3 for a short time? Does he know what $100 is put in the estimates for? It is put there as a token vote for when a project starts. In the event that it starts, the money can be put in under that heading. The honourable gentleman pretends to be ignorant. Mr.

Chairman, if the honourable gentleman wants j to do something and make his contribution for his constituency, for the people of Labrador and for the people of this province generally, then let him get on the bandwagon and support that road and not be picking holes in and trying to minimize the importance and trying to play down and run down that document that was presented to the two federal ministers. It is like a good many more things. Mr.

Chairman, we will all play politics from time to time but it is unforgivable when a politician plays politics with something as important as that kind of a project, a project of such magnitude, a project that will see isolation broken, disappearirig for the first time in this province. To have someone, Mr. Chairman, attempt either directly or indirectly, either intentionally or unintentionally to sabotage that project. The honourable gentleman has stated as well that it is either the transmissi011 line or the Trans-Labrador Highway. Who says that? AN HON. MEMBER: Ottawa. MR.

HICKEY: This government does not say it. Ottawa says it. Well then if Ottawa says it, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Jamieson, through the mouth of Mr. Rompkey, should be ashamed of himself. Does he give the honourable gentleman information? Will he talk to the honourable gentleman when he will not talk to us? MR. WOODWARD: He said it publicly, _MR. HICKEY: He has not said it publicly. The honourable gentleman, Mr. Chairman, has become so political. I swear he is praying that,for Mr. Jamieson and company to adopt that very attitude. He would like to put this administration 5.16 I

May 3, 1974 Tape no. 1502 Page 4 in the position where they might have to decide. Is that what he wishes to do? Is that all that is so important? MR. WOODWARD: (Inaudible}. MR. HICKEY: Is the road important so that his constituents can have a good road for a change which they have not had before, so that something can be done by an administration that recognizes the problems in Labrador and in his constituency which he did not recognize, Mr. Chairman, while he was a minister of the crownl SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Chairman, I almost get sick when I hear the honourable gentleman refer to what is not being done in Labrador - I have the greatest regard for the Member for Labrador South - when he refers to the inadequacies of service,to the problems related to Labrador or indeed any other member of this House except the honourable gentleman. I do not want any misinterpretation of that, Mr. Chairman. The honourable gentleman and I get along very well but purely from the political point of view. The honourable member was a minister of the former administration with resporusibility for Labrador.

The former Premier brought him into his cabinet, and he has the audacity to stand here and say something to me about the Trans-Labrador Highway or what is not being done or what should be done. What did the honourable do while he was in office? Will he tell me or will I tell him? MR. WOODWARD: (Inaudible). MR. HICKEY: Nothing, Mr. Chairman, absolutely nothing. He was not allowed to do anything. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Order please! All honourable gentlemen have the right to engage in this debate at the proper time.

While the topic may be such that honourable gentlemen cannot restrain themselves, I suggest that under the rules of this committee they must do so until they .have the opportunity to get the floor. 5168

May 3, 1974 Tape no. 1502 Page 5 MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chai.rman, the.re is reas.ou in all tbi1).gS. One C8DJ)Pt be black and white at the same time or VDe cannot be hot and cold. The honOUl.'able gentleman must accept re.spQnsibility far what he did not do and the initutives that he did not take. MR. NURY: Could we have a quorum. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Ung the bells. I direct honourable gentlemen to the rules that when the Chairman's attention or the Speaker's attention is drawn to the fact tbat there. is not a quorum . - the allqation was made that there was no quor.um and the Chairman,•.-in this case it is myself, made his count and ascertained that the

May 3, 1974, Tape 1503, Page 1 -- apb Morning alleged fact was in fact fact. There was not a quorum and the bells had been rung. SOME HON , MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR. CHAIRMAN (Stag g): Order please! Order please! AN HON. MEMBER: Who the hell does he think wants to - MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg) Order please! Order plea~e! SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg) : Order please! Honourable gentlemen - AN HON. MEMRER: You! You! MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Order please! Order please! AN HON. MEMBER: You yo-yo. MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Order! MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) MR.

CHAIRMAN (Stagg): I direct honourable gentlemen to the fact that while the debate on the estimates may have been suspended for a short period of time this committee is still functioning and the ordinary rules of parliamentary procedure are still in effect. The three minute suspension does not give honourable members the liberty to turn the proceedings of this chamber into something which is unparliamentary or would lower the dignity of the institution. MR. SIMMONS: the - Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: I am glad to hear MR. CHAIRMAN (Sta gg) : Order please!

The committee is not functioning for the purpose of points of order. The honourable member may raise his point of order when the quorum has been ascertained. We have a quorum. The honourable Member for Hermitage: MR. SIMMONS: On a point of order. I heard the Minister of Rural Development refer to someone .over here, I believe me ,- AN HON. MEMRER: He believes? MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, I rise really on two points of order. The first is that I -wo~ld ask you to request the Minister of Rural Development to observe the rule of speaking only from his own place in in the House.

I have been listening to him babbling on there for the

May 3, 1974, Tape 1503, Page 2 -- apb Morning last half hour from every other place in thecommittee. That is my first point of order. The second is that I heard him refer to one of us over here, I believe me, as a slimey eel. I maintain that that is unparliamentary and I ask you to rule on it. MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Order please! The two points raised by the honourable Member for Hermitage are legitimate points. They were such that they drew the Chair to its feet during the brief lull for the quorum count.

As far as the Minister of Rural Development is concerned, the rules are quite clear that an honourable member may not speak except from his own place. Certainly, I do believe that the appellation with which he referred to one of the honourable members to my right, I think it was the honourable Member for Hermitage, is one which comes within - SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Maybe the honourable minister - MR. WILSOij: (Inaudible) MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Order please! Order please! Maybe the honourable minister might.like to clarify his statement, if that in fact is what he did say.

Of course, maybe the honourable member to my right might be complimented. MR. SIMMONS: To my point of order, Mr. Chairman: I distinctly heard the Minister of Rural Development say; "Slimey eel." The Minister of Finance may not have as good hearing. Let the Minister of Rural Development get up and either deny it or withdraw it, one or the other. Either will satisfy me. MR, DAWE: On that point of order, Mr. Chairman: If the Chair did not hear the remarks how can the Chair rule on them?

I contend that any member on that side can point a finger over here and say; "You called me a dirty name", come up with a name like "slimey eel' and expect the Chair to rule on it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! Order please! While honourable members are entitled to use or attempt to use whatever devices or subterfuges or whatever comes to their minds in attempting to get matters into the debate, I thought that the expression I heard from

May 3, 1974, Tape 1503, Page 3 -- apb morning the honourable the Minister of Rural Development was in fact one of these unparliamentary phrases, in fact, the words "Slimey" - AN HON. MEMBER: Take it back. MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): However, may~e the honourable minister would like to clarify his statement and maybe rephrase perhaps - AN HON. MEMBER: Withdraw! Withdraw! MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): If not withdraw so that the ordinary proceedings of this committee can proceed. MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, is it unparliamentary to be an eel or not be an eel? Is it unparliamentary? AN HON. MEMBER: Only the words. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Order please! The honourable the minister should not ask the Chair for a ruling of what is or what is not. Maybe the honourable minister would like to clarify what he did in fact say. If he in fact said that the honourable member or one of these honourable members to my right was slimey, and also, for the benefit of all honourable members, the Chair does not particularly like to be dragged into a prolonged debate on a matter which really should be insignificant. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Order please! Maybe the honourable minister might like to set the record straight.

MR. REID: There is certainly a possibility that I did say he was a slimey eel. By all means, Mr. Chairman, I will certainly take it back if I said it. AN HON. MEMBER: It could not have been a mistake - MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Order please! Again for the benefit of all honourable members I suggest that this particular exchange has taken up five minutes of the time of the committee. I would also suggest to honourable members that the use of an unparliamentary phrase which is withdrawn after considerable importuning from the Chair adds nothing to the dignity of these proceedings.

A withdrawal after a lengthy discussion such as this may or.may not in fact be a with­ drawal. I direct all honourable members to give this serious

May 3, 1974, Tape 1503, Page 4 -- apb consideration when further matters of this type might arise. The honourable the Minister of Transportation and Communications: Horning MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, when we were called to order I think we were discussing the Trans-Labrador Highway. Mr. Chairman, as I said earlier and I repeat; if the honourable member for Labrador North has any interest in his constituency and the people that he represents, indeed all the people of Labrador of whom he frequently speaks about and rightly so, why does he not, Mr. Chairman, adopt a positive approach to this whole question?

Why does he not help in whatever way he can to bring about that highway? Why does he not lend whatever support he can to bring about the development of the Lower Churchill? What milage, Mr. Chairman, what good is there in, what value is there in the honourable · gentleman attempting to sabotage, pick holes in, play down either one project or the other? Are not both important to Labrador as indeed they are to this whole province and all its people? Does he not stand for the development of the Churchill and the final development of Labrador by means of the Trans-Labrador Highway? It is inconceivable, Mr.

Chairman, that the honourable member and the honourable gentlemen in this committee or a person in this province could indeed be against either one of those projects. lis I have said earlier, all it can mean to this province is good, good value,not to mention the unlimited potential that will be opened up in Labrador by way of mining, tourist trade, fishing, recreation, forestry and it goes on, Mr. Chairman, to no end. This administration is attempting vigourously to realize the development ot the commencement of both projects,and what do we find?

We find a member of the opposition, a Newfoundlander and what is even more astounding, Mr. Chairman, a gentleman who represents that part of the country which has seen isolation the like of which ls not known in any other part of this province and very few parts of Canada.

May J, 1974 . Tape lSN (}lornin!!) RH - 1 How can the honourable p,entl.eraan in conscience clefend that particular nosition? Mr. Chairl'lan, if the honourable r,entlel'lan insist that hP has seen the document or a document, not the one that was nresented 'to both feceral n5nisters. if he say he saw that. nr. Chairman. that is com­ nletely untrue hecause it is an iMnossihility. AN t!ONOHRAP.LF. ~~ER: Is the honour ah 1 e ,>:entleMan cal lin ." the member a 1 ier. ''IR. HICV-.:V: _a ____ _ T rlo not use that phrase, 1-!r. C.h:iirrna11. T used it :i few years ago aml T p:ai,1 for j t.

I have learned MV lesson. ,: have TT1ellowed with the nassin~ of t5rne. >-fr. Chainnan, T was tn O'Jf!Osition. 1t was the thinr to do then .,s we find it is still the thin .~ to <lo certain thin!":s "lhen von are in onrosition if you seek to TTlllke political mileafre. political hP..y or what have you. "Ir. f'.hail'.T',m. I tell the hononra1'le gentleMan ripht now, r.ian f,ishion, he <lid not see the final rloCUTTlent that was nresented to th<> FPderal Govern,:,ent, that 1 ner,rnnal lv dPlivered. 'fr..

Chatman, fnrther­ !'1nre the reason T ,a;.i,y he clid not see that document anrl the reason T s;iy to "hir;, that i.f he had not seen that ,focunent therefore he rloes not lrnm,, •rhat the --lncnnent contains hecansP there we>re chnn<'es ,.,a,1e in that pr0pos:-1J ri~',t to tli.e Lrnt Minute hcfore signature in n,1ebec r'ity. Tn •act, tucnty 1,inutes hc•ore tl1at rlocu1"ent was sip,ned thf:'re Herp sheets t;,_ken 01 1t and c~1anr:es rru~de. Therefore. ~!r. Ch:iiman, 110w can t',,:, '.1cinourahlr. gentlenan say he saw the docul'lent? .. It if, 11 very roor production. Tt is :,ieaninp.less.

It :lir! not !1a1• do the iob. Tt was conpilen hy a couple of clerks in r.y office. ·· '.•That an ir,sult, '1r. Chairr,an, what an insult towards.'a worthwhile proiect, a worthwbile effort on the part of this administration, SOTi'lethinR .. ~-'r. f:he.irman 7 that should have hee.n rione a lon?, time ?.go. There woulr! be a ro.:irl across T,.:ibrador todav if the forMer Premier had not been on the Irick that he H.:is on at the tii,,e, afraid, ~r. Chairman, to open un Lahr..:idor. Afraitl of what? Afraicl some oeople froM ')uehec 5174

·•ay 3, 1 n7r, . ~1' - 2 W<'nld c:oMc in. Are thev not in the-re :mr-niv? ,~.r., they not we] come? Is this not one countrv? no Pe put un 1'.'lrri c,1des or stone walls to ~eep out the nP.on1e of 0uehec or any other Province? What <".hout, ~·!r. <:hairm:m, if the Province of nntario turned hack l'lnrl '1rove hol"C every :,e•,foundlanrler th:it is thl"re? It is iust sense1 ess, nure senseless, at-solute ho?.Wns1• for soMeone to trv and iust:lfy that ldnc1 of a position. ·•r.

Chaiman, the honourat>le irentlernan referret1 to, when he referre-l to transportation he snr>:gested, H nossit-ly there would he nepotiat:lons with or an ai>reement with people in nuebec in terms of shiJ1ment of r.:oods. ~Ir. ChairMan, it :Is on1v natural that the nolic:y of this p,overnment tmu1cl he that we want Lahrador and the husiness of Lahrador for the peflnle in this Province. l"!r.

Chnirman. it is not the policv of this P,overrunent and it will never he that we would holr' those !"eoole in isolation or 11ee ther.t r,o without the necessary i,;oods they re".luire 1ust because of a transportation nro­ b1er.i. noes the honourable rentleman fee.] th11t iTI makinr st11'.h a statment that that is "- kini! of hl A<'1':r,,ail, thR.t that is so ~-•rong? Surely nohody 'Aill suir.,i:est that the people of Labrador s'io1 ·lc1 not have fresh VP~etahles or fruit or ·meats or the neces!lary items, essentVtl i tl"!'lls. T.f thP.y can i:et ther1 there easier, cheaper, who coul-1 "oaflihly onpose that?

Until such time, Mr. Chairman, as we are in ;i no!lition to clo somethinl'! ahout it, i.s there anythinr. wronr.: with thr. neonJe of Labrador tradinv ~omewhr.re else? ~s l said before. Mr. Chairman, docs not this Province trade very 'ir.avily with mainland Canr!A? If we were to rely, }1r. Chairman, only and solelv on what this T'rovince ororluces. thrre wo11l r1 he one great

-~ May 3, 1Q74. Tape 1505 (Norning) RH - l nul'lber of starvin_g people. So I would hope, Mr. Chairman, that the honourable r,entleman wns not implyinP: or sayinr, or indicatin~ in a kincl of blaclo'!ailing way that, "We had better do somethinp. about the transportation oroblems or the people of Labrador are ~oing to trade with so!'leone in ~fontreal or Sept 1Jes or sol'lewhere else, ~Ir. Chairman, wh11tever improvements th11t c11n be brought ahout in Labrador, short-term •-1h:lle the long-term is beinp, worked out, must nbviously have the consent or aporoval of this ~overmnent or anybody else.

How could anyone seriously object to free trade, object to P:ettin~ essential food iterns or items at hctter prices? Let me remind the honour·able p:entleman that he does not 1have to sav to us that if improvements are not m11de hv this Province that the trac1e nr the business is goinr. to r.o to someone else.

This is not the criterion by which we develop an overall transportation policv and hring about the necessary improvements - of course not, '!r. r.hainnan, we "Ire already wel 1 11long the course of develop- :In" that poli.cy anr1 trvinf'. to imr,rove conditions for the people of Labraclor in ..,;,ny ,lif.ferent wnys. Two o~ t'iem, two of the n:i.-jnr oro- iects, prohRl:-ly, '·'r. r.ha:lrman, that will not be surpassed by way of ro11cl constmction or hydro development in the history of this Province, on those t,,o major nro1ects. we find the honourahle gentletoan' s straddlinr­ the fence.

T say, '•fr. ~hainn11n, that that is no nosition f.or the honoura't-le ~Pnt1e!'1an to t;ike. As a m;,ttcr. of f"!ct it is a rather dan!!:erons one. ~o, "r. Chair:r.an, I c1o not know ho" hard one has to try to convinc~ the honourble r.entlel!lan that everything -,,nssihle is bein~ done to brin~ about the Trans-LaJ:.raclor ]!i.p:1way as is everythini> possihle heing done to brim~ about the ,levelonr.Pnt of the Lower r.hurchill. :fr. C'hP.1T.r.ian, there should he no confnsion over the two pro1ects hecause they ro hand-in-hand, hand-in-~love. hath nro1ects.

I do not Ir.now why t'ie honourahle i:>:entleman vould call into Question the deterrnininp: - AN llONntTRAP.Lf. ~U:T'J',ER: Do we have a quor,tl'I in t'h,e committee? 5176

"-ay J. 1<17/i. Tape 15'15 ('lot"nin,:,) JlJl - 2 '!R. r,l'AIRNA:, (Stap.p.): '·'e have a 11uorum. A~l HONOURABLf. ~~113ER: Inaudihle. HR. CfTAIR'1A'i: l,e r:!o have a 'luorum. AN Hm!0UP...AP.Lf. '-!E}ll\ER: Inllwlibl.e. Mr. ChairTian, the mer.tber for !lnnitare is not ~oin'! 11b go out. J'e is too much of a p,entleman for that. llc is too nuch of a itcntlc­ ,.,an for that. He is not goinp to run out and crc11te,:1ncl reduce the numbers substantially. Mr.

Cha:!.T'lltan, may I 11.r,J'leal to the mel'lber. for Labrador North and say t_o hilll in a11 sincerilty that whatever our differences mir,ht be. w'1atever his criticism of Me,or mine of h.in, can we not a!!ree, can we not say to one another that we lioth strive to bring about the same encl results, 118l'lelv, the Trans-Ll\brador P.iv,hway, the develor,111ent of the Lower r.hurchill; for those are the tvo are"ls that he seems to he confusinf!. those are the tt~o areas that he seems to be criticizin,:z.

Does he not ap;ree that both of thoRe pro,1ects should have the complete support of every 1'!ember of this House and that failinr that, while it mav not stop either project from ~oinP. ahead,Sir, it certainly will not help. ~r. Chairman, Y appeal to him to rethink his decision and to call into question in his own mind the nep;ative attitude that must be read into his remarks when he critici?.es both of those r,rojccts, when he tends to set one project ap.ainst the othet", This is 1>urely and wholly a ne~ative anproach. Mr.

Chairman, t aM even not convinced yet that the honourahle p;entleman wishes that impression to ret ahroad or in fact that re even thinks or sees his rP.marY.n as nr.Rninr that. ~r. Chairman, I assure you that this js exactly how he is coming across, not only to me, not onJy to this side of the House but indeed to the peo!)le oF this i>rovince. T. would sur,p;est to him that the time is ripe (r.,r hiT"I tn restate his nosition or rethink his position in relation to both of those ~ro1ects.

The charp.e that,And he made that charp;e on A~ril ~. the charp.e that this p;overament, this administration wiflhes to develop the Island cf newfoundland,

'fay 1, 197 4. Ta:,e 1505 (MOR.i'IING) RE - 1 !Ir. Chairrmm, that to 1'1e is a most irresoonsible statel'lent. I 2m not sure, Mr. Chairman, what that statement smacks of. That statement can mean a ~-~hoJ.e host of thin~s. It can set a whole host of people thinki.ng,particularly in Lahrador. Is the honourable gentleJ'lan sug­ <"esting that we too shonJ r1 h1we a separatist l'lovement? Is that what he is suggestinr.? If so, Hr. Chairman, he shou] r1 have the courape to state it very nlainly, very hlunt:ly, not the lea~t, very boldly so that every honourable p,entleman in this honourable House may debate that.

T am sure that he ivill not find any supflort in this l'rovince, certainly in this Fouse for any suggestion or anythinp; which would border on it. It is a bit late, ~rr. Chairman, for the honourable <>entleT'lan or anyone e]se to start pointinf! out the deficiencies of service, the lack o" service or the ane-old problems of Labrador ,md apply them to the threat or anvthinp near seflaratinr. It is a bit late for that, 'fr. r:haiman. 'T'hp tfr,e f"nr tl1at is lnnr.: gone.

The time for that w"s when there w"s an a-tministr.ation here that did next to nothing to show an interest in Labrador, to recognize Labrador, to recop:nize where. a r.reat c'eal of the .,,el'llt}i of" thii, T>rovincP is anc' the re•,enne comes from. Mr.

Ct:iirr,,an, this administration hrts proven beyond any shaclm~ of a doubt its: :interc~t. its r1esire to develop Labrador. not for the roo,1 of t!1p ishmd nart of t11is Province as the honourable ~entleTcan Sllf"!<;ests, wl1ich is an in.--esponsilile statement as 1 saic:1 eerlier, but for the overall benefits and the overall p.:ood of all the neople of this Vrovince inclucling first anc foremost the peonle of that g:reat lanrl­ ~ass of Labrador. Pow does he reconcile all of this in his mind? He cannot, M'r. Chairman..

He is inconsistent. l'.e cannot be for the Trans-Labrador Eighway and al';ainst the hydro development:. ne cannot be for the hvdro development anrl al';ainst the Trans-Labrador P.b;hway.. There is no way. Any person in this Province if he would sit clown for a moment would very quickly realize the impact of either one or both of those projects, ,,rha t thcv Pill meal' to this Province. There is no way anybody 5178

:•ay "\. 1 °71,. '!.I" - 4 could 1'c at?II irist cj tl•c-r one . tt 1.s i nconcet vc:1?· t P. . Mr. Chai roan, ho>< t!1P. hono m;-ahle .r.entleman or anyone else - J tlo not siMJ. e him out althou p.h t-c has nadc certain statements. MV rennrks ;,re :mnlicd to all honourab lA r,,CMhers - row anvl:lot!y co11lrl lift ?. !inpr r to slow un th!' nrocess of develo !"­ mcnt either ,:,f t"e hyclro <levclornent a t: t ha Lower :;',u r chill or t he '!'rans - Lahrado r l'iP.hwav. Mr. r.hairman . f & the honou rah le ~entlernan has an cxnlanntior for !ti i< pnsitinn as sta ted, I should like to hear it.

'fay 3, 1°74. Tane 1snfi U'orninp:) RH - 1 '!R. Cl!ATRMA\J (Stagg): Shall 1701-01 carrv? The honourable the member for Labrador North. MR. '!. '.'OnDWARD: !-'r. Chairman, after sittinp: and listening to the honourable minister for the last half an hour exnlaininp: to this com­ mittee their policy on transportation and col'l!11unications and what they have done, I will tell you what they have done, Mr. Chairman, what they have r1one for Labrador. How are we going to nrove to the neople of th:1.s Province that we have a nolicy if we do not set about doing some- thing. That is the verv point I want to rnal<-e. 'lr.

Chairman. That is the very point I want to make. J'fR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Order, please! Order, nlease! The member for Labrador North must resume his nlace while the Chairman asserts his authority. The member for Labrador North while he noes have his place in the House is entitlerl to be heard in silence. While certain 111e-r,hers to mv left may wish to inter.1 ect and have things to add to the debate of course they know that there is a time allocated for that. That time arises when the honourable member has resumed his place. MR. WOODWART>: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Policies, we have heard of nolicies.

We heard the Premier when he visited Labrador tell us that we were going to p:et the Trans-Labrador llip:hway. I have made it a T>oint, Mr. Chairman, to do research in Ottawa. Ue have the best renresentative in Ottawa,in the nerson of one Tiill Rompkey,that ever represented Labrador. Pe have not seen the '1inister of Transportation and r::ornmunications. c·Je have maybe heard from his Director of Transportation on a couple - AN F.0Nl')URABLF. Mm!ffP.R: Inaudible. MR. :lOODT.JARD: T will distribute gas as well. tc 'l RON0URABLE ME~IBER: Inau,Hble .

MR, HOODllARD: Ves. but there are a lot of people who will he distrihutin~ p.as. 1-rr. ~peaker. what we have heard frol'! the JT1inister in this comr.iit tee toclav is an utter. utter - 1: wou] d say mislea-:lini;, the nub lie of this Province aR well a~ Lahrador hecause we have seen no policy. The policy, 5100

Ta:>t> 15n< ("ornin~) we h nvP. seen no T'o1icy. J havP n cor,y, 1i1r.. Ci1:1irr,:::in~ of t h e r,ror,os:tl~ the i oirt pronosal t11,it ,,ms nresenteri to Otta·•m. I hav,:• " copy. T can fi, ,l it ir ry Files. T havp ;i conv. T hPV<> witnesses that I can produce anrl brino- in this llouse, that there was a copy of that document passe<l over to rne and I react it. A~l 1!0!111URABLE )1E)IP.'ER: Tn~11riirlP, '-'R. P(lOTilJARTI: - -------- T t is fourteen pares of ,and it is a bilin<>ual docll'nent - it is not'iinr, but 11tt