May 13,

RESOURCE COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Mr. Harding): Order, please!

We are ready to begin now, so I call this meeting to order.

First of all, welcome to everyone here this morning. The procedure we try to

follow is that after the Clerk calls the subhead, the minister will have fifteen

minutes to talk about his department, followed by the critic who will have

fifteen minutes, and then we try to alternate between Opposition members and

government members, ten minutes each. It has not been working out that way, just

the same, but anyway it gives everybody the opportunity to speak.

Now, I would like to ask the members of the Resource Committee to introduce

themselves by name and district.

MR. O'BRIEN: Kevin O'Brien, MHA for the District of Gander.

MS JOHNSON: Charlene Johnson, MHA for the District of Trinity-Bay de

Verde.

MR. HUNTER: Ray Hunter, MHA for the District of Windsor-Springdale.

MS FOOTE: Judy Foote, MHA for the District of Grand Bank.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA for the District of Bay of Islands.

MR. REID: Gerry Reid, MHA for the District of Twillingate & Fogo.

Mr. LEWIS: Andy Lewis, Opposition research.

CHAIR: I would also like to welcome our staff here this morning.

Minister Shelley, would you like to introduce your officials that you have

here this morning?

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I am delighted to here this

morning, my first experience at this. I am looking forward to it as I did in

Opposition. I want to welcome everybody here.

First of all, I will introduce my staff who are with me. There is Gary

Norris, as most of you know, the Deputy Minister, on my immediate left; Brent

Meade, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Culture and Heritage; Vic Janes, ADM of

Tourism and Recreation; and directly behind me is Gerry Crocker, the Director of

Finance and general operations.

I know, traditionally, if it were in the evening we would have had supper

but, of course, we did not have that occasion. I was in early enough to have

breakfast, so maybe we should have organized that. There is a rain check there

if we can do something at some point. Breakfast would be 7:00 a.m., I would

assume.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: I thought about it earlier, because I think every time I

have done this, actually, it was evening and there was usually a supper,

compliments of the minister. As a matter of fact, I have done it with the

minister. I appreciate that and I would like to return that same compliment if

we can arrange something. I will certainly make note of that.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Shelley.

I will ask the Clerk now to call the first subhead for the Department of

Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

CLERK (Ms Murphy): Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.1.01. You may proceed now, sir.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you.

You have called the subhead and now we can start.

I will begin with some introductory remarks. I will try to keep it as brief

as possible so I can give you all the time you want and need and more.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: You can spend as much time as you want.

I will start by just making a few general comments that I have written, but I

may break off from a few of these to make some other comments, and as we go

through it, of course, we will continue.

For the Budget 2004-2005, the department's total gross budget is

$32,747,800. This budget will support key objectives of the department,

including economic growth and employment in the tourism industry, cultivation of

contemporary arts, protection and promotion of the Province's cultural

heritage, promotion of sport and recreation and the benefits of active living

and the well-being of the people in Newfoundland and Labrador. Budget 2004-2005

outlines some specific investments that the department will undertake in the

coming year to meet the objectives.

First of all, of course, as I mentioned yesterday, the $1 million in tourism

marketing will effectively bring the total tourism marketing budget now to $7

million. Just on that note, I have always compared it to the other Atlantic

provinces, which, in fact, are our competition. They are our neighbors and our

friends but they are also the main competition when it comes to tourism in

Atlantic Canada. That is the intension and sight, of course, of people coming

from across the country and throughout the United States and around the world,

about the Eastern Coast of Canada.. Our competition is our Atlantic partners. As

a matter of fact, I do not have the numbers with me this morning, but I sort of

remember them, and I think Nova Scotia is the highest in tourism marketing,

somewhere around $9 million. We are up to around $7 million now, so we are

getting close on par with P.E.I.. I think P.E.I dropped a little bit last year

and so did New Brunswick. We offer similar things when it comes to the tourism

package.

The increased funding will allow us to gain ground on our Atlantic

competitors and will result in increased visitation, and increased employment

revenue for tourism operators and communities in which they reside. Over $2.5

million has been allocated to encourage and support the continued success and

growth of creative artists and cultural industries in the Province.

Specific investments include - and these are the main ones of course: The

CEDP program, the Culture Economic Development Program, which you are familiar

with, and that has been there for quite awhile, is at $825,000 again. The

Heritage Foundation of Newfoundland and Labrador, and there is quite a history

behind that, I am trying to make sure that they are still in operation. This

year we have allocated $250,000 to that. The Newfoundland and Labrador Film

Development Corporation have $180,000 in operation. The French Heritage

Celebrations, which is specific to this year, and, of course, there has been

some funding from the previous administration, this is what we have added to it

because this is the summer of the French Shore Celebrations. We have helped out

there with an amount of $150,000. The Music Industry Association of Newfoundland

and Labrador, for the first time, with $200,000. The Newfoundland and Labrador

Arts Council and grants to Arts and Culture and Heritage organizations, of

course you are familiar with them and we can go through those in detail.

The Rooms, as many of you are aware, Budget 2004 has outlined the decision to

defer the opening of The Rooms for one year. This decision was taken to help

address the fiscal situation of the Province and will result in an estimated $2

million savings. I add to that, with ongoing discussions and so on now - and I

would be glad to update you on it anytime. I will say to the critic, that we can

have discussions about that. We have already started with different arts

communities, on the decision to defer the opening. On the bright side of that,

also to include the arts community in a more meaningful way in the opening of

The Rooms next year, which we will be opening next year. I will say that in the

Estimates and I have said it in public and officially anywhere. To include a

positive note on that, it is the arts community that, as a matter of fact, the

critic asked me to meet with, and I did that. It will give them a more

meaningful involvement in the actual opening when The Rooms do open.

With the combination of the fiscal restraint and the fact that decisions on

the readiness of the opening of The Rooms for this particular year - if we had

to go through with the opening this year at the time that was suggested, there

were some possible complications with that, right from the actual construction

to the actual exhibits and it would have been a rush to get it open this year.

That is feedback from all aspects of it. I am certainly willing to answer any

questions or discuss that with you. Besides the fiscal restraint of opening this

year and the savings, was the whole issue of actually being ready to open The

Rooms this year. I am certainly going to entertain any questions on that.

While we recognize the value of The Rooms project, we also recognize that

during times of fiscal restraint difficult decisions have to be made, and this

was one of them. As I say, we will continue to discuss those. We remain open

with the significant part of the long-term sustainable plan for Newfoundland and

Labrador into the future, with The Rooms as part of that plan. The Rooms will be

completed. Of course, we will get an update on the actual construction phase and

so on, within days actually. In the meantime, we will strive to offer and make

accessible as many programs and services as possible within existing facilities

such as the Provincial Museum and the Provincial Archives. There are some plans

to use and utilize those as we head into the summer.

Beginning this summer, we will also move collections - this is information

for you - belonging to the Art Gallery Provincial Museum. This is from meetings

and so on, and was suggested by you, as a matter of fact, to move Provincial

Archives to temperature controlled vaults at The Rooms. As a matter of fact,

that is something that was suggested and it is a good idea. In other words, if

we can use those temperature controlled vaults down there - because one of the

criticisms of the arts and so on is, where they are in the Province they are

actually deteriorating because of lack of temperature control and those types of

things. Those vaults are down there. We will get a final update very soon on

when they are ready and so on, so we can actually put things in there even

though The Rooms is not open. They are empty vaults with the temperature

controls and all of that type of thing in place. The security and actual

preservation of the arts can go ahead. There is no reason why that cannot go

ahead.

I do not see it in these notes here, but, for example, on the weddings and so

on, they will be able to go ahead. If people understand that it is an empty

building, they can use The Rooms. One of the reasons for the weddings was the

view, that is what they liked about it, so they can still use that. Anything we

can do to accommodate those type of things, we will do, and continue

consultation with the people who have booked things and so on.

This will ensure that these important collections from all three institutions

are adequately stored until they are put on public display, when The Rooms

actually opens. While we realize there is a concern about delayed opening, I

have met and will continue to meet with representatives of the arts and heritage

communities to answer any questions they may have and to seek their views on the

actual opening. This extra year will allow government to work with these

important stakeholders and The Rooms' Board of Directors to ensure that when

The Rooms opens it will be a facility that we can all be proud of.

Mr. Chairman, I am not going to go on with a lot more in opening because I

know in questions back and forth we will repeat these things, that these will be

brought up again. These are just some of the points but, of course, I invite you

ask questions. I will say to you, that the update from yesterday and the

indicators, we are getting those continuously from our shows that are around.

The ministers who have been involved with that know that continues, with the

officials that travel to these travel media shows. I will have some more updates

as we go through the day.

I can tell you - and I think it was the Member for Grand Bank who mentioned

it in one of her statements earlier - the indicators we are getting, as we get

every year, are just steadily growing. Every time we get a report it is better.

The timing for it and the international travel - I guess that says a lot, to be

related with the trends in the world, especially. It is amazing. Sometimes we

think these things are far away from us, but actual trends in the world are

landing people in places like Newfoundland and Labrador and Eastern Canada for a

quite, pristine, safe place to go. The timing is good for tourism, and I look

forward to your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Shelley.

Before I get to the Committee members, I just want to remind the officials

here this morning that the proceedings are being recorded for Hansard and if you

answer a question that you identify yourself before you speak.

The critic now, or the Vice-Chair.

MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, I am going to pass on to the critic for the

department, the Member for the Bay of Islands.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

First of all, I am not used to being called a critic because I am so

easygoing.

MR. SHELLEY: That is news to me.

MR. JOYCE: The second thing I will say, Mr. Chairman, is that even when

someone else is footing the bill, Mr. Shelley still will not take me to

breakfast.

MR. SHELLEY: (Inaudible).

MR. JOYCE: I guess, if it was after six o'clock he would have no

problem, but early in the morning he usually has a problem.

MR. SHELLEY: Actually, I was here very early this morning, 6:30 a.m.

MR. JOYCE: First of all, as the minister mentioned - I will go to page

162, because there are a few people in the room concerning the arts community

and The Rooms. For their pleasure, so they will not have to sit all day

listening to us going through the details, there is a bit of information there.

First of all, I thank the minister because I met with the group and I asked

the group, would it be better to sit down with the minister first, and myself

and Jack Harris asked the minister to meet with the group and the minister did

so. Thank you very much. I acknowledge that you did meet with them on the

request and they had no problem whatsoever. Thank you very much for that.

Going to The Rooms, Mr. Minister, as you know it is a big topic, not just in

St. John's but all over. I know what you just said, but is there a commitment

that The Rooms will open next year and is there a date confirmed for that?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, there is a commitment, number one. A date, I will tell

you, and I have said to the group, as a matter of fact, and some other people -

I have had many other contacts, by whatever means, even people stopped me,

people in the arts community. The date I want to set is in conjunction with the

people I am speaking with in the arts community, and including the board. The

board has made, as a matter of fact, some suggestions already. I am meeting with

them very soon. I think there is a scheduled date with the board very soon. I

want to tell the arts community, not just the board, that I want to hear what

they are suggesting. I will tell you here that there are suggestions of Canada

Day and some are thinking June 24 th . That is something that I would

like to have discussed and people would have input on it. I am inviting anybody

in the arts community to suggest dates. Some people think those are good dates

and some people think they are not. Maybe they should pick their own date.

As far as the actual date, we will be setting it very soon, but I want to

make sure the door is open for anybody in the arts community who would suggest

certain dates and what reason they are suggesting them.

MR. JOYCE: Will you present that in writing to anybody, or myself, once

the date is set?

MR. SHELLEY: Once the date is set, I will notify you, I will notify the

board immediately, and anybody else. I think even looking at a date is

important. If you do say Canada Day, some people agree with it. That is just an

example, by the way, one of the suggestions I have heard from people who I have

spoken to. I said, you decide and discuss that. I am not stuck on any particular

date. I think the arts community should have a particular say in that. I will

notify you as soon as we have a date.

MR. JOYCE: Perfect.

The other thing is - this is an issue that I have mentioned to you and the

arts community asked us to relay it to you, which obviously you are well aware

of, you have taken steps to correct it - to have some of the art, which they

feel is not being properly stored and maintained, moved to the temperature

controlled area. Is there a time set for that? Is that ongoing, started yet or -

MR. SHELLEY: I am not hearing you really good.

As far as that goes, that is being worked on right now as we speak. I will

try to get an update on it for you as quickly as possible. Basically, this is my

understanding - maybe I will ask the Deputy to respond too - as quickly as we

can do that and accommodate in any way, in that facility, for conservation

purposes, conserving art and so on, in those vaults which are there now - it

would be no extra cost - then we will do it.

Gary, do you want to respond to that?

MR. NORRIS: Mr. Joyce, I think what we are going to do is, probably in

the next several weeks we will start that transfer. We are trying to get the

provincial archives up and running again. They are down packing, and they are

going to open in the next couple of weeks. The art gallery is closed for the

next year. There is no reason why some of that material, in terms of art work,

cannot be moved. In terms of the museum, they are going to open, I think,

probably mid-June. There is stuff down there that can be moved in as well. It is

going to start, certainly within a month.

MR. JOYCE: How much money is going to saved by not opening The Rooms?

That is the question. Sometimes we hear $2 million, $1.2 million.

MR. SHELLEY: I will respond to that.

The number we had was approximately $2 million. I will say approximately,

because it may even be a conservative amount. I will try these numbers off the

top. I have heard $2.3 million to keep the facilities we have now operating. I

believe that is the right number. In other words, for the archives and the

museum to keep going as is.

MR. JOYCE: Is there any breakdown of the savings?

MR. SHELLEY: That will be the breakdown. This will be the basic breakdown

of it. It is $2.3 million to keep what we have operating now. It is $400,000, I

understand, from Transportation and Works, to basically keep security and heat

in the building, so that is $2.7 million. This is where we can get right down to

the nitty-gritty details of it, very soon, I think. We said $400,0000

miscellaneous. That is for unpacking and miscellaneous, (inaudible) expenses,

and those type of things. You add all of that up and it is $3.1 million. Those

are our expenses. This is the comment I want to make today, which is very

important I believe, as it was sort of lost in the debate. That would be $3.1

million. We have come to a number, which is not a final number, and this is the

whole argument on part of The Rooms not opening.

I will say this here in the Estimates this morning, as a new minister in this

department, from the time I went there until the time we were trying to decide

on whether The Rooms would open, we had never settled on the appropriate amount

to open The Rooms. This year, if there is an advantage at all, it will give us

the time to discuss that. I have heard, as the minister, and I have stated here

this morning, $6.6 million was mentioned by the board to open it. Officials in

the department were saying somewhere around $4.1 million or $4.2 million. We

were somewhere around the middle when we were considering opening for this year,

at around $5.1 million. That $5.1 million target has not been finalized. It

could be a bit more, when we finally decide to open it next year. Who knows

that? That is the whole idea. With this whole year, we will get time - and I am

quite clear frank about this, because I have sat in those meetings to find out

if it is $5.1 million. This year will give us the time, with the board, with

officials, and with people in the arts community, to find a final number that

will open The Rooms for next year. As of right now, I cannot tell you what it

is.

If it is $5.1 million, and it could be more - that is why I said it was

conservative to save $2 million. If it is $3.1 million to keep it as is for this

year, closed, and $5.1 million was a target that we had set to possibly open The

Rooms, then there is a difference of $2 million. What I am saying, if there is

more to open The Rooms, it could end up to be $5.2 million, $5.3 million, or

$5.5 million, then we are actually saving whatever that extra amount is. That is

why I tell you those numbers.

MR. JOYCE: That is why I gave you a chance to clarify it, because you

hear different figures.

When the final figures are in, will we be able to get a breakdown of the

actual savings, the anticipated savings, once this is finally done?

MR. NORRIS: Yes, Mr. Joyce. I can probably give you a little bit of a

breakdown now based on a $5.2 million or $5.3 million budget. Our core, as the

minister said, is about $2.3 million. That is the existing staff we having

working in the institutions right now together with operating costs. To move

into the new building, for heat, light, security, you are talking about $1.7

million. Just to heat that building is about a $1 million expense, $900,000. In

terms of extra staff that would be hired, because the facility is three times as

large in terms of programming space than what we have right now, to hire extra

staff - we have a board of sixteen or seventeen members for the governance - it

could be anywhere up $1.6 million, and to offset some revenue here probably

$300,000 to $400,000. That brings you down to around $5.2 million or $5.3

million.

MR. SHELLEY: That is why we say around $2 million.

MR. JOYCE: Once the funding is determined, would you mind forwarding me a

copy of the actual breakdown?

MR. NORRIS: We are working it through with the board, and certainly the

board is having input. The ADM, Brent Meade, and myself met with the board, with

the Chair and the Vice-Chairman specifically, and are starting to work through

the numbers. We will do that over the coming months.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Perfect.

For the board itself, the Terms of Reference and I am sure the legislation,

has that all been put through? Is that all in place right now?

MR. NORRIS: The legislation right now is not. It is drafted. It is not

ready to go into the House for this session. It will be ready for the fall

session, I expect.

MR. JOYCE: So legislation is not in place yet?

MR. NORRIS: No, no. It was not finalized.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Another concern that was expressed to me on several occasions is the

curators. There is a concern that some of the professional people that were

working there are laid off now and may not be around next year, because, of

course, they cannot sit around for a year waiting to see if they are going to

get some work. Their concern is that they may lose some professional people.

MR. SHELLEY: That is a good point. I am glad you asked the question here,

because I have talked about it to a point in some of the meetings we have had.

It is something that needs to clarified for everybody's sake.

First, I want to do this, Mr. Chairman, welcome people from the arts

community here. There are some of them here and I think that is a good idea,

because with the more information you get a lot of the times, the picture comes

clearer. I am glad you are here and I welcome you here this morning.

I am going to let Brent respond in a second, but I just want to say this: On

the transitional staff that were working up to that point when we made the

decision, of course, their contract would have run out in June. Some of it was

in June. Some, at this point right now, are back in the transitional movement,

as we speak. I think it is six or seven back right now out of the twenty-four.

It was twenty-four. Some would have finished anyway in June, with the transition

that they were doing. There are seven back now, and we may be using some more of

those in the next little while. I will let Brent carry on with that now.

MR. MEADE: Twenty-four transitional positions were eliminated. Of the

twenty-four positions, they would break down basically into two groups. Some of

them would have been working on projects that were very specific to transition,

as preparing documents and preparing collections to move into The Rooms. Once

that was completed their contracts would have been completed, clearly.

Another group would have been working on other parts and other functions of

the institutions and there would have been the hope that they would have

continued into The Rooms Corporation. Obviously, with the delay this year, as we

move into our HR planning and our budget planning for the opening next year,

that is when we will determine exactly how many of the twenty-four can come

back. Of the twenty-four that have been laid off, six have been recalled back

now. No, it is seven. There are seven that have been called back now and are

working within the institutions, six with the provincial museum to finish the

permanent exhibit, and that was an important part of obviously moving into The

Rooms, to complete the permanent exhibit. They are on contract until the end of

October. A curator position with the Art Gallery of Newfoundland and Labrador

has been renewed as well.

MR. JOYCE: The curator has been renewed?

MR. MEADE: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Perfect.

MR. SHELLEY: Just to -

MR. JOYCE: Go ahead.

MR. SHELLEY: Just to keep on with that, the number twenty-four, it really

was confusing in the beginning. The twenty-four transitional staff, as I

understand it, all of those would not go into permanent staff when The Rooms

opens. Some people believe that they were part of a transitional staff. There

are some who we can use at this point who are important, especially for the

permanent exhibit. That is what is key. That can continue on, that is being

done, and I think that is important to note.

MR. JOYCE: Their concern, Minister, was that in order to open The Rooms,

say by next May or June, you need those people on staff now to get The Rooms in

place, to get the art gallery set up, and to get everything set up. You cannot

say you are going to open in June and go down and get staff hired in June to

start opening in June. It has to be done - I do not know - five or six months

prior.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: The other thing, Minister - and I am sure you are aware of it

because I mentioned it yesterday. Congratulations on the statistics, by the way,

for tourism. It is great for the Province, and anything that is good for the

Province is good for all of us. As I mentioned yesterday, the quicker we can get

a confirmation out, of the date that The Rooms is going to open, the better

opportunity we will have to start getting national and international exposure

back into the Province. That is their concern. This year for different reasons,

as you mentioned, probably giving more time to do it properly, whatever the

reason - if we can get a date out as soon as possible, the arts community can

start exposing The Rooms all across Canada, North America, and all over the

world. That is their big concern.

Their other concern is, if we are going to open, say, June 1 next year, is

that the planning has to start almost now. I am no expert, but you need people

on now to get The Rooms ready for next year, six, seven, eight months prior. It

is no good to have people just come on. I do not know if you want to respond to

that or not. That is the main reason why the community itself, the arts

community, would like a date, so that they can start promoting it again. When

they have the art shows coming through, it is almost like a tour and they have

to fit it into the tour somehow. The quicker we know the quicker they would

know, and the quicker we would be able to promote The Rooms.

MR. SHELLEY: I want to say that I totally agree with you, we need a date.

I want a date, as early as we can get it. As I said, by consulting with the

board and anybody in the arts community who wants input on that, in setting a

date, we are going to try to get that date. I agree that is a priority. You are

right, the timing needs to be clarified. Of course, that will lead into some of

the comments you made yesterday on the exhibitions and so on. I am willing to

answer anything on that, to update that, because the fact of the matter is that

this estimates committee gives us a great opportunity for that particular issue,

which, because of other issues, I feel has not got the, I guess, public view and

so on lost in so many other issues throughout the last month or two. Let's put

it that way. We need to clarify then, so that we are all working together on

this.

I want to give the message, which I have given to the group and I will give

to you as the critic, that I want to work with the arts community to set that

date and to move to that date. We made a decision for this year, agree or

disagree or indifferences or whatever. My attitude is to work with the

community, work towards that date, and to open this properly when we open it

because the history of it is long and it is going to be important for this

Province. I agree with setting a date and getting ready.

MR. JOYCE: I am not trying to get a date here now, but is there any time

frame when there would be a date decided upon?

MR. SHELLEY: The best answer and the most frank answer I can give you is,

as soon as possible in conjunction with the board. Anybody who wants to have

input - and I have put that out publicly - anybody who wants to have input, and

certainly the people in the arts community, from any angle, even if it just

suggestions through e-mails or phone calls or another meeting with the group

that you mentioned already, any type of communication like that, the point being

the faster I can get those communications, then we can all sit down, go back and

forth through these dates and set a date. So, as soon as possible, and I will

give you that date when we have it.

MR. JOYCE: To be the fair to the arts community, the groups that I met in

the arts community, they want to work with the department. They understand the

co-operation that they have with the arts community. Of course, their

displeasure was shown in a number of protests and -

MR. SHELLEY: I appreciate that.

MR. JOYCE: - that is part of it, but they always express that they work

well with the department, so there is no hesitation for them, at any time, to

get involved with the Department of Tourism, I can assure you of that. One of

the reasons they wanted to meet with you personally, to explain what they were

doing, to be up front with you, is because they know once this is open they are

going to have to deal with your department from here until eternity anyway. It

is an issue of where they had to express their concerns and displeasure, and I,

as the critic - I, as the opposition for Tourism. I just do not like critic.

MR. SHELLEY: No, I understand. May I just make a comment on that, Mr.

Joyce?

MR. JOYCE: Sure.

MR. SHELLEY: The fact of the matter is, as you said, a member of the

group, on your suggestion and Mr. Harris's suggestion, I think it was just a

couple of days after, came to the decision to sit in on a meeting, even at the

highest point of their frustration, just finding out the news and so on, I

sensed even then that once the decision is made we have to move forward from the

decision. I respect your take on this from the Opposition's position too, that

you have handled it the right way. I will say that to you. A lot of times things

can get muddled, as we know, in the political field. This is so important, I do

not think it is the time to play with it and that is why the door is open to you

and the members of the community. I just want to move ahead with it. There was a

decision made, but do you know what? I think when we do open this next year, it

will be bigger and better than we even planned for this year.

MR. JOYCE: I will just ask the last question that was on my mind, and

this is coming from me. Was there ever a cost analysis done for keeping The

Rooms open as compared to closing it, for the amount of shows they would lose,

exhibitions, tourism, et cetera?

MR. SHELLEY: The deputy will speak to that.

MR. NORRIS: Yes, there was, Mr. Joyce. We have twelve exhibits that were

scheduled to open in The Rooms had it opened this past summer. We are losing two

exhibits, and the total cost of the loss of those two exhibits is approximately

$9,000. The other exhibits will be coming forward next year. As a matter of

fact, one of the exhibits is going to open next month. It is the French exhibit,

it is an archival exhibit, of various documents coming for the first time from

France, that will be displayed, now, down in the museum even though it is an

archival exhibit. We are fitting that up for, I think, the end of next month.

That is the cost.

MR. JOYCE: Can I get a copy of that?

MR. NORRIS: I can give you that.

MR. JOYCE: I do not want anything that is confidential to you or

anything.

MR. NORRIS: No, no. You can certainly have it. This lists the various

initiatives and stats.

MR. SHELLEY: You mentioned some yesterday, I think, in your response, the

exhibits and so on. That was a fair update. I was hoping for a question on it,

to be honest with you, to get it clarified. That is important, because those

people had planned to come this year. We have contacted them, I think - Brent

can update this shortly - but out of the twelve we contacted most were

enthusiastic. I think it was over 90 per cent, if I remember the number, who

said, we understand you made a decision there, but we are certainly enthusiastic

and interested for next year, including, by the way, the Board of Trustees with

the National Gallery. We have contacted and talked to them, they understand the

delay for this year, and are enthusiastic about making those dates for next

year.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Just on more of a closer note: The Corner Brook

Exhibition Centre in Corner Brook was canceled. Was that a cost-shared

agreement, federal-provincial?

MR. SHELLEY: Brent will answer that in a second, but I would like to

comment on the Exhibition Centre first of all, and this was in the budgetary

decision. When you look at it overall, the big picture, I am glad that you asked

the question. If we are sitting down here with a $47 million facility, which is

going to be an icon for this Province, and we have to open it - it is delayed. I

will just restate that, because I have to put the exhibition in perspective.

Brent can give you the particulars of the cost-sharing and the history of what

was going to happen in Corner Brook. At this time, we cannot open this for this

year, we could not make a just decision saying that we are going ahead with the

Exhibition Centre at this time. Anything that we can do on the West Coast to

enhance that community, outside of building another Exhibition Centre or going

ahead with the Exhibition Centre, we will do it. At this time, we cannot see, in

the financial situation we talked about and the situation with The Rooms,

proceeding with the Exhibition Center.

MR. JOYCE: Is it cost-shared, federal-provincial?

MR. MEADE: There was no cost-shared agreement with the federal government

on the Exhibition Center, it was to be provincially funded.

MR. JOYCE: I guess I am just a bit curious, because during and before the

election it was highly touted by certain candidates out on the West Coast as a

great feature to Corner Brook and the fine arts program in Corner Brook, and all

of a sudden it is just cancelled. The total justification was monetary and it

will not be reconsidered? Am I correct in that? Because it was cancelled, it was

not deferred.

MR. SHELLEY: I want to make a point on that. I will have to verify this

and I will get it for you, but as far as the cost-shared part of it, I

understand the MP for the area at the time was looking at some type of funding

to -

OFFICIAL: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: Right. If I understand correctly, and I will get this

clarified, it never did come, the federal response there.

MR. NORRIS: The minister is quite correct, there was representation made

to the federal member. He had indicated publicly that there was going to be

support. When we heard that, we wrote him on that point, asking for him to

confirm that and we did not get confirmation.

MR. JOYCE: Is it cancelled? Is it off the books, not considered? It is

the fine arts community out on the West Coast with a degree in the fine arts,

and it would be great. As you know, and I am sure the officials know, the

Cormack museum was going to move up there. It was going to be a smaller version

of The Rooms for the West Coast, which was great for the whole West Coast.

MR. SHELLEY: I will respond to that.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: I heard different

interpretations, and I guess everybody can

interpret and everybody is going to do different

interpretations. The project as

is, that was on the books, is cancelled. I met as late as - and this is an

update for you - yesterday afternoon with the President of Grenfell College. I

explained the situation, why we made the decision this year, as I just said to

you. If we can look at other ways to enhance or bring forward a new proposal or

to add something else or to update things out there, all of those options, which

were looked at before, by the way, by the previous Administration, updating, I

think, the museum at Grenfell - they were looking at some upgrading. I forget

the amount of money, and I even saw the amount. Well, you would know it, and we

can get that for you. It was suggested upgrading the museum that was there. I

think it was somewhere around $500,000, if I remember properly. All those

options were looked at before. With the cancellation of the Exhibition Center,

as is on the table, whether there is something done next year, an upgrade to a

point, or in two years time, that you put another exhibition center on the table

as a new proposal, that is open.

MR. JOYCE: The one right now is cancelled?

MR. SHELLEY: The one now is cancelled!

MR. JOYCE: The other big issue, and is not just St. John's but it is

all over Newfoundland and Labrador, and I met with people in Corner Brook, is

the art procurement.

MR. SHELLEY: I will make some comments on that.

MR. JOYCE: That is $200,000 that was beneficial to -

MR. SHELLEY: I am glad for this question, to confirm it, coming in as a

new minister in that department, the list of art procurement. I can tell you, on

the second day after walking into the office as minister, I got a full update of

the Art Procurement Program as it stands. Nobody would argue, and I certainly

would not, that it is a great program and we want it to continue. For this year,

not just on budgetary - as a matter of fact, it had a lot to do with the

situation of the art procurement as is, and it really bothered me. On the second

day I was there I started the inventory. As a matter of fact, I started right in

my own office, signed everything that was in my office. I asked the same thing,

to go through the entire department, which is still ongoing. To find out there

was so much unaccounted for, to find out there were so many artist in the past

who have talked about the state of the art, not only where it was but the

condition it was in, was it being preserved, was it in some hall where nobody

saw it, was it damp - all of those concerns came out in a review that I saw.

Right away, not just the counting of the paintings and where they were at the

time, all the art, not just the paintings, and the condition of the art, I could

not, as a new minister, get those answers at that point. That is why we are

doing the inventory, why. it is continuing now. As of today, I think, there is

close to 90 per cent of the art accounted for, so it is almost completed. I

think, even your own offices, everybody right throughout the Province, have been

doing this inventory. That should be completed, I understand, within weeks. That

will be finalized. The whole accountability, every piece of art, 2,347 - I must

remember the number - is the total of what we have so far. That is almost

accounted for. It should be completed within two weeks. Hopefully, it will all

be accounted for at that time, when we will give a full report to you; and also

the condition of it at the time.

Right now that is passed on to the art gallery. The Art Procurement Program

is passed on to them. For this year, it was not just solely a budgetary

decision. There is a saving of $200,000, but the condition and the

accountability of the art, as of now, is not completed. When it is completed, I

am hoping to continue with that program for next year.

MR. JOYCE: So it was not just a budgetary decision?

MR. SHELLEY: No.

MR. JOYCE: Again, I am not arguing the point, because the art that is in

the offices under Work Services and Transportation, all of our offices have to

left the Premier's office in Corner Brook we had the inventory sent out and it

was from Work Services. It was never done by the Department of Tourism. Work

Services were the ones where we signed art in and out.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, but it is in our department, the Art Procurement

Program.

MR. JOYCE: I know the art procurement is, but if you are looking for art

and if you have to keep track of the art, it is done through Works Services,

MR. NORRIS: This is the understanding, this is the way it is, actually:

Our department, Tourism, Culture and Recreation, has responsibility for the

acquisition of new art works as well as the maintenance of those works. In other

words, if you move offices, you are supposed to advise our Art Procurement

Officer, Pat Donnelly, of the move. He would arrange to have the art work moved

with you and a record would be kept and put in our database, as to where that

artwork is now located. The gentlemen from Transportation and Works may

physically pick up the piece and move it for you as you are moving, but they are

not even supposed to do that. I know they do it, because have done it for me in

terms of my movement, but really the Art Procurement Officer is the person who

is supposed to move it. Really it is not Transportation ands Works, it resides

within our department.

MR. JOYCE: Well, I can assure you what I signed had a Transportation and

Works headline, and the person who went around my office to check every piece of

art was Transportation and Works, and then when I-

MR. SHELLEY: I will make a comment on that.

MR. JOYCE: I am just saying what I signed. I am not saying it is right or

wrong, I am just saying, if this was a concern for the art procurement because

of what is happening - and, of course, I am not being confrontational.

Obviously, there is government confusion there. It is not your department, it is

Transportation and Works. I was confused, I did not know that was the procedure,

to be honest. I did not know.

My concern is, here we have the local artists being hurt, $200,000, because

we have government bureaucracy. Obviously now, as you are saying, Minister,

there is over 90 per cent, as of today, accounted for. I know, about a year to a

year and a half ago the Auditor General did it and when they came back they

found 97 per cent and 98 per cent of the art, and it was all accounted for.

There were one or two pieces missing, though, when they dug into it. I think out

of all of the art there were ten pieces that they could not find. That was going

back since 1989, and this was, I think, a year and a half or two years ago,

because I sat on the Public Accounts.

What is happening, here is $200,000 hurting the local community, because -

and I am apart of it because I was there for fifteen years - the Department of

Tourism has now cancelled this. They did not know where the art was, which we

all assumed - and I am sure the minister, when you were in Opposition, when you

got art you contacted Mr. Baker who worked with Works Services.

MR. SHELLEY: Well, I would just like to respond to that.

MR. JOYCE: Sure.

MR. SHELLEY: As a matter of fact, you are right, there is confusion about

it. When I was getting briefed, as you do as a new minister, about different

programs and everything, that was another thing that came out, who really does

it, who is not supposed to be doing it and who is supposed to be actually

handling the art. I have had artists who have said to me that they saw their

paintings down in a hall. Not knowing where it was, who was being accountable

for it, and the whole program, to be quite frank about it, the accountability of

it, that is why I think it is a good move right now. I think all of us will

agree that the Art Gallery itself will now handle that, once we have a handle on

it in its entirety, where it is, the condition it is in, whether we should move

some into vaults and protect it, or whether we should restore some. All of those

things now will be with the Art Gallery and all these issues, including the one

you just brought up, we will get a handle on. In a nutshell, I do not think

there was a handle on it overall. I had criticism about it, as an Opposition

member myself. I think this will get it back on track, knowing exactly where

every single piece is. That is our responsibility. If there is one that we do

not know of, we have to find it, find out what it is, plus find out the

condition of it, give it to the Art Gallery under the new Rooms corporation, and

on a go-forward basis have a better account of the whole situation.

MR. JOYCE: I am going to ask you a question that I know is hard for you

to answer, and I may be putting you on the spot.

MR. SHELLEY: Go ahead.

MR. JOYCE: Seeing that there was confusion within the government and all

departments, not just your department, and, of course, I was confused on it

because I know what I signed, when I got it and who came in to sign if off for

me, is there anyway within the budget of Tourism, if the art is found, to put

some kind of replacement in for the art procurement, even if it is not $200,000,

just something for a small initiative? Now, I am not asking you to change your

budgetary process here, but something within the Department of Tourism somewhere

along the way. I know, Minister, you know, and I know the staff knows, this is

great for the local artist.

MR. SHELLEY: Oh, I know.

MR. JOYCE: It gives him a little boost. If you do that, I can assure you,

you will not hear a word from me that the budget is changed or you found money

within the department. I am not trying to put you on the spot, but is there

something you would consider, if you find out most of the art is where it is

supposed to be, or maybe moved to another office, or somebody did not take it

with them or something like that? I can assure you, the arts community that I

spoke to on the West Coast and in St. John's feels that it was a totally

budgetary cut because it was not important.

MR. SHELLEY: First of all, it is very important. I deal with artists

myself in my own district, and I have had comments for years, as Opposition, as

to how important that was, a small amount of money that meant a lot. As a new

minister in this department, I appreciate that and I know how important it is.

It was not strictly a budgetary decision. It was the fact that I was dealing

with what I dealt with the second day I walked into that office, which artists

had described to me over the years, you know, at different times: Where is it?

Is it in good shape? What do we have? A full handle on it, is what I just said

to you. As far as consideration for something for this year, at this point in

time I cannot commit to that. I mean, we are under a fiscal situation. You do

not want me to go through that spiel again today. If there was money that we

could use or if there was something that I could do, I would like to do it, but

I certainly would not be able to commit to it here today.

MR. JOYCE: I am saying, within the budget. I would not expect you to be

able to go to Treasury Board to get additional funds. I am saying, something

within the department, for example, if the cost estimate for The Rooms is a bit

lower, or the opening is a bit lower somehow, or once you get your final

analysis of The Rooms, if you were going to save $2.1 million and you find out

you saved $2.4 million or $2.2 million within your own budget. It is not a

request to go to Treasury Board to seek more funds, because I know that would be

over and above. I am just saying, once you do the analysis of The Rooms and the

opening up the new gallery now, if there are some savings within there, just

consider it.

MR. SHELLEY: I will put it to you this way, if there was - and that is a

moving target now as far as nailing down this number, because we are going, as I

say, to work with the board and work with the arts community on doing it - and

if there is money found, I would look at it.

MR. JOYCE: Excellent! From you, Minister, I take that as a fair

commitment.

MR. SHELLEY: I appreciate the question, because I feel the same way about

the program as you do.

MR. JOYCE: Just the makeup on the board - and I am not going to get into

it because the legislation is not here - do they have the number of people, not

the individuals but the number, selected for the board, the number to go on the

board?

MR. NORRIS: I am sorry, Mr. Joyce, I did not hear the question.

MR. JOYCE: The number of the people to go on the board for The Rooms.

MR. NORRIS: There are eighteen people on the board, as we speak, with one

official, which is the ADM of the department. I attend meetings as well. We meet

on a quarterly basis. Dr. Priscilla Renouf, who is the head of the archeology

department at Memorial University, is the Chair. The Vice-Chair is Mr. Tom Foran.

They are a very committed group of people representative throughout the

Province, business people, people in the arts community, of various persuasions,

visual artists and the like, a very good group of people, I have to say.

This coming year, albeit The Rooms is not opening, they have their work plan.

They are going to be looking at a strategic plan that will be something that

will be followed by the staff for years to come in terms of how this facility is

going to operate. That is going to be a big piece of work. The fact that The

Rooms is not opening does not mean that this group will be sitting idly by doing

nothing.

They were disappointed. The minister and I met with them, the Chair and the

Vice-Chair, the day the Budget came down. They were disappointed, but they

recognize there is an opportunity to move forward and to lay out a good plan for

the opening next year.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Minister, I will just give you an opportunity to respond to this, because it

is a concern that was expressed to me, that I said I would express to you and

give you a chance to clarify it. There has been concern expressed, rumours which

I cannot confirm, that the roof is leaking on some of the art.

MR. SHELLEY: I will respond to that.

MR. JOYCE: I am bringing it up, so you can respond to it.

MR. SHELLEY: I have heard that comment from people in the art community.

I understand, too, in the provincial archives building - as a matter of fact,

that was one of the suggestions, that I go for a tour there - in particular,

there was a leak, dampness and so on. I am going to get an update on that, even

a tour if the facilities, very soon as a matter of fact. I have heard the

comment much like you. As a matter of fact, I have heard it a few times. I think

it was in our meeting with COMA that it was mentioned, and I think the board

mentioned it, some dampness and leaking, that sort of thing.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Yes. Because of that comment that was brought to us - and I

just do not recall who the group was. I think it was COMA that mentioned it

also. Everybody pretty well mentioned it. That is the reason we are looking into

that now, to see if we can move some things into The Rooms right now, into those

vaults, to get them away from that situation. Anything we can do to mitigate

that problem, we are going to do it and we are going to do it as quick as we

can.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Joyce.

MR. JOYCE: I am just going to take a break. My colleague wants to ask a

few questions. I am sure I will be back again.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Before we do that, I would like to give the opportunity to the government

members on the Committee to see if they have either question or not. Members on

the government side, do you have a question at this point in time? No one, okay.

We will move back to Mr. Reid.

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, I guess I have to be the bad cop today. I am going to make a few

comments and I do not want you to be personally affronted by these comments,

because I have known you, I guess, since 1993, and I have always found you to be

a very honest and upfront individual. You made the comment that The Rooms were

definitely opening next year, and if it were up to you and you only, or your

officials, I would certainly take their word as well because I have worked with

them and found them to be very professional, very upfront, very honest

individuals, and if you gave me the commitment that it was opening next year,

and it was your decision and your decision only, or your department, I would

take that to the bank.

Unfortunately, your Premier, Mr. Williams, visited my district prior to and

during the election and made commitments in rooms around my district, not like

this one obviously, but town council offices and so on, and gave commitments to

these people that he broke in the last few months. Again, it has nothing to do

with you, because I believe what you are telling me. Unfortunately, my colleague

from Grand Bank here, the Premier, Mr. Williams, gave a commitment to the people

in that district during the election that he was going to build the hospital

there. In fact, the steel was up on the building. It is my understanding that in

the next few weeks we are going to see bulldozers - the steel is coming down, if

it is not already down, and we are going to see bulldozers bulldozing those

footings into the ground. We will have to wait and see if the commitment will be

honored, and if The Rooms will open next year and not some time down the road.

Your colleague, the Minister of Education, Mr. Ottenheimer, went to Gander a

week before the Budget came down and gave a commitment to the school board in

that area, some fifteen or twenty individuals, that the school boards would not

be amalgamated this year or reduced in number. If I were in that meeting, I

would have believed Mr. Ottenheimer, because again I have known him for the last

ten years, and I am certain that he did not deliberately mislead these people.

The point I am trying to make is that, having been a Cabinet Minister myself,

I know the process you went through in the pre-budget consultations, I also know

that you fought, in the Budget, I am sure you did, to have enough money to open

The Rooms on schedule, and I am sure you fought for the procurement of art, that

portion of your budget. I have been there. There are things that you fight for

that you do not get. I have also sat around the table with some of the same

officials that you did in Treasury Board, where every time there was a need for

more money for The Rooms - I think that the original estimate was probably $40

million and now it is up to $60-something.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible)

MR. REID: Forty-seven-something. Every time that came up, I heard what

some of the officials in Treasury Board said about extensions onto The Rooms.

My point, I guess, is, I certainly hope that your Leader and the Minister of

Finance honor the commitment that you made here this morning, because, to be

truthful with you right now, if they were saying it here today I would certainly

doubt it. I would not put a lot of faith in the commitment when one considers

the number of commitments that were made to my district that have since been

broken, such as to eliminate the cost of ferry rides in my district, and then

increase them by 26 per cent. I can go on about opening the hospital on Fogo

Island, and we find today that only half of it is going to open, and the list

goes on and on.

I do not mean to insult you, because, like I said, if it was you and your

officials telling me, certainly I would not even be talking about it. The fact

of the matter is, you still have the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board to

deal with and you still have the Premier. I guess, until we see it in the budget

next year and the announcement is made, then I will have more comfort that it is

going to be done.

What is the cost of operation of the buildings that are currently operating

with regard to art and heritage in the Province, like the museum, the archives,

and all that?

MR. SHELLEY: Two point three million dollars.

MR. REID: Two point three million dollars. When you say that you do not

have the additional money, you factored in what it is costing us to operate

these facilities they are compared to?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, we have that cost in there.

MR. REID: You also said that you were going to try to get the vaults at

The Rooms opened for artifacts and art, and that the meeting room or the banquet

room upstairs, you are going to try and get that opened as well. Have you also

looked at the cost of, basically, mothballing The Rooms even though you are

going to keep these two, hopefully, in operation. When you actually did the

budget on this, you looked at that as well and you are still - what? - $1

million short you are saying?

MR. SHELLEY: The deputy can go ahead and answer that.

MR. NORRIS: The cost of mothballing, in terms of heat and light and some

minimal security, Mr. Reid, is around, I estimate, between $400,000 to $600,000.

That is estimates given to us by the Department of Transportation and Works.

MR. REID: Were you the deputy minister, Gary, when the briefing was given

us last year on The Rooms and the opening of The Rooms.

MR. NORRIS: No, I wasn't. I have been there just over a year now.

MR. REID: Yes. There was a woman in your department who gave the

briefing. I think she has since moved to another department. I forget her name.

MR. NORRIS: Heather MacLellan.

MR. REID: Heather MacLellan, yes.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding in that briefing that

she gave to Cabinet, that The Rooms were, basically, going to pay for themselves

in terms of operation. Is that correct?

MR. NORRIS: No, I would not agree with that comment. The revenue that is

estimated right now that we would generate, I think, would probably be in the

$300,000 to $400,000 range. As time goes on, you may build some further

excitement into that and get more people through the place. That is probably a

conservative estimate, but there is no way it is going to pay for itself.

MR. REID: So, you are saying $300,000 to $400,000. Once The Rooms are

complete and open, what is going to be the cost of operation again?

MR. NORRIS: My own personal view is about $5.2 million dollars minimum.

MR. REID: That is certainly not the impression that I got in that

meeting. Maybe I am wrong, because I kept saying to myself in the room, I will

believe it when I see it, you know, if it is going to pay for itself, and it is

not meant to. I can remember going to a conference in Whitehorse the year that

they had the flood in Manitoba, the Red River, and that city was devastated. It

was a mayors' and government officials' conference and the Minister of

Recreation, Culture and Tourism for Manitoba, I think, was there and they were

announcing that they were building something similar. She said: It may sound

strange that where the province has been devastated and it is going to cost us

hundreds of millions of dollars to repair, we are still proceeding with the

construction of this building because it is our belief that every generation

should build something to pass on to future generations and costs should not be

a concern. Even though we are faced with hard times here in the Province, I

agree with the lady from Manitoba, even though it was the first time I heard it

said that way. I do not think that either art or recreation in the Province

should be looked on as a cost recovery project, because that is not the reason

for it.

If you are saying it is only $300,000 or $400,000, that seems to me to be

somewhat low all the same, if you consider that obviously you are going to have

to pay a fee to get in there and you are going to have these exhibits that are

coming from around the world and you are going to be hosting banquets and

conferences, because that is what it was touted for, as well. Government hosts a

number of conferences around this city and most of them, I would think, right

now are held in the hotels. At least we could be using a facility that the

Province owns and pay the Province even though we are paying it out of our own

pockets. At least it would not be going to the private individuals and companies

that for the most part do not even have their headquarters here.

That is the comment and again, Minister, I hope I did not insult you with my

comments but I needed to say them. I do not know if my colleague from Grand Bank

wants to talk about The Rooms before we move off that.

CHAIR: We will soon have to get into the questioning on the subheads.

MR. SHELLEY: That is up to them.

MR. REID: It will not take as long to get through the subheads. We will

go through them line by line, but obviously there are not a lot of changes there

in your department. So that will not take us very long.

CHAIR: Ms Foote, you may go ahead now.

MS FOOTE: Thank you.

I do have some observations, but let me start as well, as my colleagues have

done, and speak about our confidence in this minister. I sincerely believe that

his heart is in the right place and that he fully intends to do everything he

can to ensure that his department and this government does what it needs to do

in terms of promoting this Province and ensuring that, at the end of the day, we

preserve our culture and our heritage.

Having said that, I do have some concerns, and my colleague from Twillingate

& Fogo alluded to some of it, and that is, any kind of commitment that we

would get from the minister I take wholeheartedly, but I would be very

concerned, even if it came in writing, I guess, at the end of the day, given my

experience over the past six months. I hope that we are wrong, I hope that, at

the end of the day, The Rooms will indeed open and that it will not become a

white elephant. It is unfortunate that it is not opening in June as it was

intended to. I see it as a wonderful facility, a recognition of the importance

of the arts and our culture, and the fact that we were, for the first time,

going to have a purposely built facility. It is unfortunate that it has been put

on hold. I think it reflects poorly on the government and on the Province as a

whole, because obviously it was being looked at throughout the country, the fact

that we have so many exhibitions that were scheduled to open there and now have

to go back into the roster as it were, and the touring, and probably not get

here for some time. Having said that, it is a great facility and I would

encourage you to do everything you can to make sure that it does indeed open

next year.

I guess it is just an observation in terms of the tourism industry, as part

of growing the economy of this Province. I think that we have all talked about

the opportunity that is there, and opportunities lost as well. Speaking as the

critic for Innovation, Trade and Rural Development and the value of the tourism

industry to Newfoundland and Labrador, particularly to rural Newfoundland and

Labrador, when you consider that we have so many communities in our Province

spread out around ten miles of coastline, it is really important for us to come

to the recognition that we are not going to have a lot of industry in those

rural parts of Newfoundland and Labrador. What we have and what we have to build

on is the opportunity there from tourism.

I would encourage the minister to do everything, during his tenure as

Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, to make sure that the support is

there for those who are, in fact, helping us grow that industry. No matter where

you live in Newfoundland and Labrador, there is an opportunity, but we need to

encourage our people, they need to be given the support to make it happen. I

know that, within the Department of Innovation, Trade and Rural Development,

there are opportunities. There is SEED money, and so on and so forth.

I am curious, in terms of growing the economy and the tourism aspect of that,

what kind of support is there in the Department of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation to help those who are doing what they can, or want to, to try and

start businesses in rural Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. SHELLEY: I will make some comments and then I will pass it over to my

ADM.

A couple of things I am really strong on, and I agree with you, in talking

about rural Newfoundland - every indicator I got back, after being five or six

months in this position, the key and the reason we are getting the indicators

from around the world is, they are coming for the culture and heritage of this

Province.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely.

MR. SHELLEY: There is no doubt about it, and that is why The Rooms is

world-class and in the future it will be an icon. I agree with that. It is

unfortunate for the year's delay. I agree with that. I went through that

process and, as the Member for Twillingate & Fogo said, he knows that

process. I want to move forward with that and I appreciate the criticisms, I

have done it myself. I want to look forward to it, I am a very optimistic person

anyway. Every time I have had anything to do with these indicators - I did a

half hour radio show into the Eastern Seaboard, and we were only supposed to get

ten minutes. It was not so much me doing the talking, but with the few comments

I made I went from being allowed ten minutes to being allowed a half hour. Do

you know what they zoned in on? The people, the culture and the heritage, and

the safe place we live in. We got another indicator back just a couple of days

ago, and that is the same response she got in Montreal.

What I am saying to you is, the culture and heritage combined with what you

are talking about in rural Newfoundland - because that is what they want to do,

they want to drive into a place like Twillingate with no lineups and no big

confusions and just experience the people. On that particular radio show, what

kept coming back was 9/11, in a funny sort of way, but the thing about the

people here. You are right, we have the product, we have the raw product. What

we have to do now is the product development strategy which I wanted to give a

couple of comments on, and how we are trying to help the people in rural parts.

I am trying to help them all of the time. I know members are getting these

questions; I want to do a bed and breakfast, I want to do that. The product

development strategy, which your administration - and I commend you for that -

has been moving with that with ACOA for the last couple of years. It is just

about complete, will be complete probably within weeks.

Basically, what that will give us, in all fairness for all of us, is an idea

of what we have on the ground. It is great to say that we are going to increase

marketing, and it is great that people are going to be coming here, but we have

to have our things on the ground, although we have our natural things, as you

said. We need those B&Bs, we need RV parks and sewage dumping sites, and all

those things. We have to know what we have. That is going to be coming very soon

and I think that is really going to lay out for all of us, as a provincial and

federal government and ACOA, what we can do to help the groundwork get done so

that people can come to places like Fleur de Lys and Twillingate and so on,

because that is what they are coming for.

I think it is an important part that your administration started and I will

commend you for that, because we are seeing draft copies of it now. It is about

to be completed very, very shortly. That is going to be our blueprint for

building our structure on the ground. As I said, marketing can keep on growing

but we have to make sure that we keep up with our product.

I would ask the deputy-

MS FOOTE: If I could just interject for a second. Have you budgeted

anything for this or are you just going to wait and see the strategy first and

then determine in the next budget what your requirements are going to be?

MR. SHELLEY: There is some budgeting done to help as much as we can on

the ground, but as far as the actual product development, I think that has to go

hand in hand with that. You need that for your blueprint, your foundation

really. You would understand, as a minister, that you have to have that to move

on to your next stage. I think that would be the crux of it. I think it is going

to be something that a lot of people have input on. I am looking forward to it,

to be honest with you.

I ask the ADM to make some comments on what we do to help. Basically, as you

know, we are not in capital, not in tourism, but to help as much as we can.

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. JANES: The minister has really summarized it very well. Rightly or

wrongly, we do not have large amounts of money in terms of direct capital to

help with opportunities. What this strategy is doing for us - and, by the way,

the strategy is been developed with support from the federal government, ACOA in

particular. I think that speaks very well, because ACOA has, over time, put a

lot of money into tourism development. We have found, over time, that without a

defined strategy the funding does not always go where it should go. It goes

where people think there are needs, but without a strategy sometimes the needs

can be a little bit misplaced in terms of moving the agenda forward. The fact

that we have ACOA on side and quite prepared to look at further development of

the tourism industry against that strategy is really important to us.

We will certainly, as officials, once that strategy gets into place and we

begin the process for the next budget year, be making recommendations to the

minister and his colleagues, that we do need to begin to put some resources

ourselves against tourism development, in partnership with the fund that is

available through various federal and provincial funding agents, such as ITRD,

to build the actual on-the-ground infrastructure. We clearly have a ways to go

on that score, but I think the development of this strategy is really going to

put us in a great position to go forward in a partnering kind of way with

funding agencies and with whatever resources we can identify within our own

department to begin to, might I say, have the product development catch up with

our marketing. Over the last bunch of years we have done a great job on

marketing. I think the numbers that the minister alluded to recently in his

statement show that we, in fact, have been growing quite significantly over the

last five or six years, but we also recognize, within government and within

industry, that we need now to ensure that our product development keeps pace

with our marketing.

MS FOOTE: Would the strategy be looking at four seasons, because I know

that in a lot of cases we tend to focus just on the one season and miss a lot of

opportunity there?

MR. SHELLEY: Just to make a comment on that, and also to add to what you

were talking about earlier: Definitely the four seasons, I have always believed

that; our winter tourism, the snowmobile industry, Marble Mountain and all of

that. Not only that one, which I think is going to explode in the next couple of

years, the skidooing industry especially - I should say snowmobiling industry -

not only that, but our shoulder season. The shoulder season in Newfoundland,

especially the fall -

MS FOOTE: Indian summer. That is the time to do it.

MR. SHELLEY: Indian summer, which is my favorite time of the year, by the

way. The colors on the West Coast and all over the Province, really, through

Green Bay and all that area, I think that is the big thing we have been missing.

On that note, I just want to let you know that we are a couple of weeks away,

with the additional money we put in this year - and I think everyone will be

pleased with this - because last year our numbers showed that 15 per cent more

people stayed home and had their vacation here, as I said in the statement

yesterday. We will be doing in-Province ads, which I think your Administration

suggested also. I have always been strong on that, because many people take off

on their trips, but there is so much we can do in our own backyard. That is one

point.

The other thing you mentioned, up to this point before our development

strategy - two points - we have to have the feds on side. We cannot do it

ourselves and you know that. The good news on that is Canada tourism, and we are

getting all kinds of indicators from them. I met with the heritage minister, the

federal minister. Canada tourism is going to try to pick up because of what

happened with SARS and, West Nile and so on. We need them to look at the

culture, heritage and potential here and say, we are going to partner with you

on your strategy, which they helped us build. That is one thing.

The point I will make about it is this, that over the years, yes, we have

built trails, we have been there, we were all over the place, and that is fine

to do. I have helped get funding, and I know all members have, for things in

your own area, but we have that now and I think it is time to get a handle on it

and look at the big picture. I think, with the development and with Canada

coming on side with that, the federal government, it is time now to have a

focused, planned development from here on in.

MS FOOTE: I want to go back again to the importance of the arts and our

culture, and the preservation and support of it. I think we know that today our

artists are known worldwide. We constantly see reviews of what our artists are

doing in mainland papers and being talked about no matter where you go in the

country and in the world. It was always my pleasure, wherever I traveled as a

minister, to take along, as gifts when you go to those countries where you are

expected to bring them, locally made products, preferably something made by our

artists. They were always so well received, and it was always with great pride

that you talked about the fact that it was made in Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MS FOOTE: I am just wondering, because I am not aware, having never been

the Minister of Tourism and Culture, whether or not -

MR. SHELLEY: Wanted to be, probably.

MS FOOTE: Quieter than some of the ones I had, I expect..

Having said that, I was just wondering: Is there any kind of program

available - and I did not see it in the Estimates or maybe I missed it - to

support artists when they travel and have their shows, or to encourage them to

have their shows outside the Province, to promote themselves and their products?

MR. SHELLEY: We will get to specifics and I will ask Brent to comment in

a second.

I will tell you one thing, I strongly agree on that because I was with Mr.

Hill at the only conference I went to this year, because for various reasons we

could not get out of the Province, and he was talking about his sculptures and

so on, and I was actually standing there when he was showing some of his

sculptures and I saw the interest from people. That is what attracts you to the

Province. I will say this to you, that I was in, I think it was Ottawa, back two

or three years ago, and Conrad Furey, my next door neighbor who is a renowned

artist, I grew up with him, you would see his stuff on the walls, everywhere you

went, and they identified him with the Province. You are right, our artists are

world renowned. This French Shore this summer - we are hearing talk now, that

why they are coming here has a lot to do with our artists and culture and so on,

and I think it bodes well for us.

Brent can give some specifics on the program.

MR. MEADE: In the Budget, there was announced $825,000. It shows up under

Grants and Subsidies for Cultural Economic Development Program, which was to

continue the work that was under CEDA. It was done last year, it was done again

this year, and in that there is a touring and export component.

The other thing I should tell you is that we are now presently working with

the Association of Cultural Industries, Industry Canada and ACOA, in developing

an export strategy for the arts in Newfoundland and Labrador.

MS FOOTE: Excellent.

Back to the procurement program, because I, too, want to voice my concern

with the fact that that was cancelled. While I accept your explanation, I think

that it is an unfortunate decision, because I would have thought that the two

could have taken place simultaneously. I know from experience in having talked

with these budding artist, especially those coming out of Sir Wilfred Grenfell

College, that they need all the encouragement and opportunity that they can

access. Of course, they were always very excited about the opportunity to have a

piece of their work accepted as being good enough to be part of the government's

procurement program. I want to pass along my regret on that, and I think I

mentioned that when I spoke in the House on one occasion, that it was really an

unfortunate decision taken by the government.

You know I am from the Burin Peninsula, and Saint Pierre and Miquelon, the

gateway to Europe.

While my preference always, of course, is to encourage tourists to stay in

Newfoundland and Labrador, many of them do tend to go to Saint Pierre and

Miquelon, and we need to take advantage of that. I think we have been doing

that, but not to the extent that we can or should. I find that there is a real

opportunity there that we are not capitalizing on. I mean, where else in the

world do you find that you can visit North America and, at the same time, within

half-an-hour, be in Europe? We have tourists - and again I speak from experience

because I have a bed and breakfast down in Grand Bank, and, interestingly

enough, about half of the tourists come there en route to Saint Pierre. So, you

always encourage them to spend more time in Newfoundland and Labrador.

I think, there is an opportunity there, that I talked about when I was the

Minister of Industry. I talked with my colleague at the time, Julie Bettney,

that this whole idea of doing some packaging of visiting North America and

Europe in the same deal, you know. Again, because of my relationship with Saint

Pierre and Miquelon, the friendship there and the relationship that we have

developed over the years, it never seems to be taken advantage of. I know that

they were interested. I know that you were kind of dearth of staff when it came

to having someone spend a lot of time on the Burin Peninsula. I think, in fact,

the one person was shared with Bonavista and other areas. I know that you did

not have a lot of support, and I know he did his best.

I guess I want to throw it out and see if it is has ever been a matter of

discussion among your officials who have been there for sometime - I know Vic

has been around for a while - to pursue this opportunity that I think we are

losing sight off, even if we were to do some package tours with Saint Pierre and

Miquelon where you would spend four days in Newfoundland and two days in Saint

Pierre. To be honest with you, one day is sufficient in Saint Pierre, one day

and one overnight. There is nothing else to see or do there, you know. The rest

of the time would be spent in Newfoundland and Labrador. It is that experience,

the French, the fran ais,

that experience of being able to go by boat for half an hour and you are there

and spend the day, spend the night and then come back to Newfoundland and

Labrador. I throw it out, because it seems to me, in the eight years that I have

been involved and have been pushing this, it always seemed to be that you did

not have the staff to really focus enough on it. I sincerely believe that it is

a missed opportunity.

MR. SHELLEY: I will just make a comment on that. I have been there, and I

know exactly what you are talking about. You are sort of leaving to go into the

old world. I really enjoyed it there. I think it is something that we can add,

because there is certainly nothing there now, as you know. There is no package

there. I have had a couple of brief discussions on it, but I will tell you that

I am certainly open to that. That is something we can add to that whole picture

of our package you know. As you said, you come to Newfoundland and Labrador, but

you can also enter Europe that way. I do not know what the officials know from

the background and history being taught them, but I am certainly open to making

a package or doing something to develop down there.

MR. JANES: Ms Foote, there is no question that that is an opportunity and

it is one that has been long recognized as well. From a departmental

prospective, what our Industry Development Officers - Norm Morris is the person

who services that area.

MS FOOTE: And he does a good job.

MR. JANES: Yes, he does. He covers a lot of territory. What we do is we

attempt to work with local companies, local tourism operators, and, of course,

the Heritage Run Tourism Association, as well, has a great relationship with

Saint Pierre and Miquelon. They together work things. They together do look at

packaging, so there is some packaging going on, but the packaging primarily

happens at the local operator level, operators in Saint Pierre and Miquelon and

operators on the Burin Peninsula. When they do the Heritage Run marketing piece

with their brochures and so on, you will see some of that. We, as a department,

in no parts of the Province, really get directly into packaging. We encourage

operators, we encourage regional tourism associations, to do packaging because

packaging is clearly a positive way to go. We recognize the potential, as I

said, with Saint Pierre and Miquelon. We do not do it ourselves anyway, as a

matter of course. It is not what we focus on, but our staff will focus on

facilitating that.

MS FOOTE: Vic, I hear you, but I think that is the problem, what you do

as a matter of course. This is not an opportunity that you have in any other

part of the Province. While I hear what you are saying is a matter of course,

here is an opportunity. When you talk about the Heritage Run Tourism

Association, they are volunteers and they really do not have the wherewithal,

the financial resources, and the expertise. They do have some paid staff, do not

get me wrong, and they are very good at what they do, but they really need

support from your department, Minister, to really take this initiative and move

with it. It is different, it is an opportunity that does not exist anywhere else

in Newfoundland and Labrador.

I am going to ask you if you would really look at this. I do know that Saint

Pierre and Miquelon are very interested. In fact, they have some of their

brochure information in the chalet in Goobies and I think in Clarenville, so

they are trying to, as well, work with us. In fact, they paid for a couple of

the students, I think, that we had in the tourist chalet in Goobies a couple of

times.

MR. JANES: It could well be, I am not sure.

MS FOOTE: Again, that relationship is there - you are right, absolutely

right - with the Heritage Run, but I really would encourage you to look at this

opportunity because it is there and I do believe it is a missed opportunity. I

sincerely believe that if you do a package of a week, you are going to end up

having your tourists, 90 per cent of that time, in Newfoundland and Labrador. It

is just the reality of the situation, of the circumstances, and what there is to

see and do in Saint Pierre.

MR. SHELLEY: I will just comment on it. I agree with you on the

uniqueness, that there is nowhere else, and it is an opportunity because of its

uniqueness.

I am scheduled, I think, because all meetings have been pushed off a bit, to

meet with the Heritage Run very soon, and to get down in the area, to have it

described to me. I think there is an opportunity here. I am going to keep

open-minded to that and have a very good look at it and see if there are other

ways, too, besides the actual package. For example, as we go forward developing

our web sites and linkages and so on, there is a lot more information which can

be tapped into that. We are really looking at that now, and that is going to

help a lot of places, like you are talking about there, to get on that big

picture.

MS FOOTE: Of course, you have the Francophonie celebrations this year.

Francoise Enguehard, who is involved with that, is from Saint Pierre and

Miquelon.

MR. SHELLEY: Aren't they doing a run? If I remember correctly, they are

going to do a boat run over there. It is going to be exciting.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: This whole French thing, by the way, will put things on the

map as far as what we have in the Province. It is going to be another

opportunity. By the way, the good thing about the French celebrations, I

believe, is that it is not just this year. We are getting messages, we just

received one the other day, from the West Coast of France saying they want more

involvement with this Province, not just for this summer but as they carry on,

because Terra Neuve is very important to them in that country.

MS FOOTE: Of course, the other thing they were telling me on Saint Pierre

and Miquelon is that they have tours that originate from Paris and they come to

Saint Pierre and that is it.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MS FOOTE: They were offering to promote packages with us, in Paris, so

that people who were flying into Saint Pierre would get the boat in Saint Pierre

and come across to Newfoundland. Of course, we have the boat that tours

Newfoundland as well.

MR. SHELLEY: I think there are lots of opportunities there.

MS FOOTE: Tremendous opportunities there for us if we want to take

advantage of it.

MR. SHELLEY: I have my own personal interest in the French, being

connected to the French. My ancestors are from France and we keep getting told

all the time, that of all the Atlantic Provinces, when you talk in France, they

are interested in the myth, the whole idea of the boats that came here, the

French boats and so on. There is a community on the West Coast of France named

after the boats coming to Newfoundland, named in their honor.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: I think we have to build on that opportunity of France and

their connection here. If we do tap into your area, for instance, Saint Pierre

and Miquelon should be a pivotal point of that..

MS FOOTE: And, of course, Placentia.

MR. SHELLEY: The whole thing.

MS FOOTE: I just have another subject that I want to touch on, and that

is the Newfoundland and Labrador Summer Games. They are going to be held in

Marystown, and we are all looking forward to that. We were glad that we were

able to get them on the Burin Peninsula. What kind of support is your department

providing for those games?

MR. SHELLEY: I will let the ADM comment on the specifics of it, but I

will give you just a quick comment. It will not take long. I know, from playing

sports down there - I was supposed to be down there this weekend, as a matter of

fact, for provincial basketball, but we cannot go, right, Mr. Joyce? I have been

down there many times on sporting events. I said when they came in, because I

know them well, they would do a first class job, and I have no doubt that the

games are going to be some of the best ever that we have seen in the Province.

MR. JANES: The Newfoundland and Labrador Games Program, as you are aware

of, Ms Foote, is one that has been around for twenty-odd years, and within that

program we provide direct assistance to hosting communities in the amount of

$150,000. That money goes towards the operating costs of the games, all of those

costs which they incur to actually stage the games. In addition to that, we take

care of transporting all of the athletics to the site and that usually costs the

department another $120,000. Of course, it is fairly high because of the cost of

flying the athletics from Labrador. That is the biggest single portion of that

cost. The Island athletics are transported by ground, bus usually. That is the

basic contribution that we would make, and again that is against a formula, an

established program. That is what it is.

Also, typically the community - and I think it is the case, as well, with the

Burin Placentia games in Marystown - will receive support through Municipal and

Provincial Affairs. In fact, they have made an application to MAPA, and with the

support of our minister and Minister Byrne, funding has been made available to

do some capital work. The notion here is that within our department and the

Newfoundland and Labrador Games, we no longer contribute to the capital cost of

the games, and that is known upfront by the communities that bid to host the

games. However, we do work with - and, as I just alluded to in this case, it was

successful with MAPA, in providing funding to help them do some of the capital

pieces that are required to stage the games.

MR. SHELLEY: I think that it is coming into place really will, actually.

MS FOOTE: In conclusion, I guess, Minister, I would just like to

encourage you to continue to support the Heritage Foundation of Newfoundland and

Labrador. I had heard that, at one point, it was in danger of losing its

funding, but I am so pleased to see that you have re-established that.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MS FOOTE: I guess it is $250,000?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MS FOOTE: It is a very important entity.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MS FOOTE: It does what we need to have done, and that is preserve our

heritage and our culture. If you look at the work that it has done in the years

that it has been in operation, I think it has been invaluable. I would encourage

you to continue to support that.

MR. SHELLEY: I agree. Thank you.

MR. JOYCE: I have a few questions, and then I will just go through a few

line items. As the minister mentioned, we should have been in Marystown on the

weekend playing basketball. I have to say for the record -

MR. SHELLEY: I have a good reason for not going, I do not know what yours

is.

MR. JOYCE: Some of my finest days were when the minister guarded me in

basketball.

MS FOOTE: That was quite the challenge, I would expect.

MR. SHELLEY: I did not have to move very much.

MS FOOTE: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: I did not have to do a lot of running, put it that way.

MR. JOYCE: Back to The Rooms for one second, and I guess it is just a

point of information more than anything. I know the competition for the building

facilitator has closed. Do you know when that person will be hired?

MR. SHELLEY: I did not hear that.

MR. JOYCE: The building facilitator for The Rooms. I know the competition

closed two or three weeks ago.

MR. NORRIS: Yes, you are right. The competition was held and it closed.

It was held in abeyance for a couple of months until such time as we found out

what the budget was. An offer, I believe, has been made to a candidate and I

believe that individual has accepted. The building maintenance person will be

probably in place by the end of the month and will oversee the mothballing of

that facility.

MR. JOYCE: That is one of the concerns, that the art work cannot be moved

in until the facilitator is hired there to get the building open. End of May;

perfect.

Before I go to line items, for myself, out on the West Coast, the parks, the

provincial parks -

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, that is not on there.

MR. JOYCE: No, no. I am not talking about the parks themselves, I am

talking about tourism for the parks. Out in the Bay of Islands we have a

provincial park. Is there any way to help promote the provincial parks, the

smaller parks that are tucked away like, say, in the Bay of Islands, York

Harbour or Lark Harbour? It is a well-used park, but a lot of times it is not as

high profiled as some of the bigger parks. Once people get out there they love

to stay because it is a great area. So, just promotion of tourism for the

smaller parks.

MR. SHELLEY: I agree with that, by that way. First of all, parks is under

Minister Osborne's department now, but as far as promoting, we still do the

promoting. The good news is, as I just mentioned to you, we had an increase in

parks' business last year and it looks like the trend is going to continue.

People are getting back to that and getting into our parks. As we do this

advertising, which should start in a couple or three weeks, the first

in-Province TV ads, we are going to be promoting such a thing as Get Into The

Parks. I think, that is going to help a lot of them.

MS FOOTE: Can I just ask a question? With the parks being under

Environment and Conservation now, does that mean any funding they would be

looking for they would have to go there, like putting in the dump stations?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MS FOOTE: So, that is now through -

MR. SHELLEY: That is all under Conservation, yes. We are just into

promotion and marketing.

OFFICIAL: Promotion is what actually (inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: That in-Province thing should help the parks, I would think.

It is good for it too.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, I will just go through a few line items. Subhead

1.1.01, Salaries for the Minister's Office: How many people are -

MR. SHELLEY: I think I will let Gerry give the specifics on it, but it

basically is the extra position and overtime.

MR. CROCKER: What was the question?

MR. JOYCE: The number of positions.

MR. CROCKER: (Inaudible) four positions.

MR. JOYCE: Four positions, okay.

Subhead 1.2.01.01: How many positions is that, as there is a bit of an

increase there in Salaries?

MR. CROCKER: Yes, there is a small increase in the Salaries. That would

just be for step increases annualization. The number of positions under the

Executive Support would be, a Deputy Minister, two Assistant Deputy Ministers, a

Director of Communications, a secretary to the Deputy Minister, and there are

two secretaries to the ADMs also. That is a total of seven positions.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, have there been any layoffs in the department across

the board?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

The number of positions is nine across the entire department. We are trying

to minimize as much as possible. Actually, there were seven layoffs because two

were already vacant. There are seven layoffs for the entire department.

MR. JOYCE: Have you got a breakdown of the areas?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, we have those. The breakdown is, two Clerk IVs, a word

processing equipment operator, a Clerk II, the art procurement officer, one rec

consultant, one policy analyst and another Clerk IV. I did not see that, so

there are three Clerk IVs and a Trades Worker I. That is nine positions, but two

were already vacant, so there are actually seven layoffs.

MR. JOYCE: Are you going to hire back the art procurement person?

MR. SHELLEY: The art procurement, as I told you, would go over to the Art

Gallery. To get the specifics, I wonder could the Deputy explain that?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

The art procurement program was administered directly in the department. It

has now been transferred over to The Rooms Corporation, and it is now falling

under the Art Gallery director. He has a number of staff there who can

administer this in terms of technicians. We saw there was an opportunity to

realize some savings, therefore, we gave notice to the art procurement officer

of layoff the day of the Budget.

MR. SHELLEY: Really, it is only six, if you look at it from that

perspective. That will be done now through the Art Gallery, and the art

procurement officer was not needed here because we would not have it anymore.

Really, it is six layoffs throughout the department which is very minimal. Any

one is too much, but for departments and comparisons and so on we have managed

to keep it fairly minimal.

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 1.2.02, Transportation and Communications.

MR. NORRIS: I would like to speak to that.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay.

MR. NORRIS: It shows here that the budget for 2003-2004, Mr. Joyce, was

$51,600. There was a substantial increase in revised for 2003-2004 to $107,000.

MR. JOYCE: I think we are talking about different -

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHELLEY: You said subhead 1.2.02, didn't you?

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 1.2.02, yes.

MR. NORRIS: I am sorry.

MR. JOYCE: What I was going to ask was about 1.2.02.03, Transportation

and Communications, actually.

MR. CROCKER: What is the question?

MR. JOYCE: What is that money used for?

MR. NORRIS: That is the department allocation for postage, for phones and

travel. While the travel portion relates strictly to the admin, the phones and

the postage costs refer to the whole department.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, in subhead 3.1.01, Culture and Heritage.

MR. SHELLEY: Culture and Heritage, yes.

MR. JOYCE: Number 10.

MR. SHELLEY: Grants and Subsidies?

MR. JOYCE: Yes. Have you got a breakdown of what those grants and

subsidies are?

MR. SHELLEY: I will let Brent be more specific about that, but that is

the $825,000 for CEDP and $150,000 for French heritage, $250,000 for the

Heritage Foundation, those type of things.

MR. JOYCE: Would they be able to send me a copy of -

MR. SHELLEY: Of the breakdown, sure.

MR. JOYCE: Just send me a copy to save time from going through it.

MR. SHELLEY: Those are programs that hopefully we hung onto to like

(inaudible), and they can tell you how they are spent and so on.

MR. JOYCE: There is a bit of an increase there and I was just wondering

where the increase came from.

MR. SHELLEY: I think the increase was on the CEDP, wasn't it?

MR. CROCKER: That includes the $825,000, and also restated from the

previous year.

MR. SHELLEY: Do you want to clarify that, then?

MR. CROCKER: The variance there, there is an increase of $579,000

overall. That includes the $825,000 for CEDP, the $150,000 for French, and the

$,250,000 for the heritage. There was a small reduction of $40,000 under

cultural events and the rest will be a restatement of the CEDP that was budgeted

last year under ITRD.

MR. JOYCE: If you could just forward that later, it would be great.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: During the election, and I just ask where it is, the Premier

committed the extra money for advertisement for Tourism. What line item is that

under there now?

MR. CROCKER: It is under 2.1.01, Tourism, 06, Purchased Services. That

would be the marketing budget there.

MR. JOYCE: Purchased Services?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes. We contract the marketing, which is with the same firm

that is being used.

MR. JOYCE: So, that is the extra million?

In Recreation and Sport, 4.01.01, 10, Grants and Subsidies.

MR. CROCKER: There is an increase there of $423,000. A portion of that

relates to the game cycle and there is also new money there, $288,000, in

connection with a new sports policy federal-provincial agreement.

MR. SHELLEY: I would like to make a comment on that, that you would be

interested in, I know. We just signed this agreement. We have had it out

publically but it was with the federal government, it was bilateral with the

federal government. With my background, of course, as a Phys Ed Teacher, I am

really pleased with this one. Of course, it was taken on by the previous

administration, and we finally signed it off and so on, which we will partner

in.

Basically, there are three prongs to that particular agreement. You hear so

much about obesity and the problems with fitness and so on, long-term. Well,

this one, I think, you will like. The three prongs: One is to help assist more

of our provincial athletes go to national events, which is good, so there is

additional money there.

Secondly, is to do a festival of sports, and that you might be interested in,

in that a lot of the parts of the Province cannot do that. The Member for Grand

Bank will understand this one, because you did the pilot for us. Basically, the

smaller communities cannot host provincial games. This will allow smaller

regions - Grand Bank did it, I think it was two years ago now. They piloted it

and did a great job. They had thousands of athletes down there. This will assist

in a number of ways to help host the festival of games in smaller, rural parts

of Newfoundland and Labrador. That is the second prong of it.

The third prong is my favorite, personally, that for Grade 7 to 9 studies

show that this is when they drop out of sports and get away from fitness and so

on in school. Anything that you have to do with Grade 7 to 9 in your community,

with hosting any type of sporting event, we have funding available in

partnership with the federal government to allow you to go ahead with anything

that would encourage Grade 7 to 9 to participate in any sport or any activity.

MR. JOYCE: Is it for tournaments, or it is just for -

MR. SHELLEY: Any kind of tournament, any type of events, sporting events

where there is physical activities by Grade 7 to 9.

MR. JOYCE: Will there be applications for that?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, there is an application process. We are just finalizing

that now as we speak, as a matter of fact. Maybe Vic can update us on it.

MR. JANES: Yes. This project, Mr. Joyce, is being done in conjunction

with the School Sports Association formally referred to as the High School

Sports Federation. The intention is to try to put in place activities which

stress less competition and more participation. We all know that throughout the

school system, whether it is junior high or high school, those children who are

really serious about sports have an opportunity to compete in school games and

so on. However, the intention is, as the minister said, is try to get at the

other large portion of the school population who do not do anything, are not

really into sports and do not want to be highly competitive. This is an effort,

and it is being called a Festival of Sport, and it will be a planned program

with applications driven through the School Sports Association to involve as

many children as possible in forms of physical activities, through sport, as I

said, with less emphasis on competition and more emphasis on participation.

MR. SHELLEY: I really pushed this one as soon as I saw it becoming

available, because I coached school teams and I know you have, and when you get

the thirteenth and fourteenth and fifteenth athletic who does not make the team

every year, the basketball team, this gives an opportunity - if you want to

bring you're a, b, c and d team and break them all up and let everybody play,

there is no limit. Basically, this lets everybody play. As you know, I have

picked those teams and felt bad about that, that you could not take the other

five that never made the team. Studies show that they give up, they get

discouraged, they give up the activity and therefore there are obesity problems

and so on at that age. This encourages them to take everybody on. Grand Bank did

it and did a great job. I forget the number they had there, but they had a huge

number participate down there in Grand Bank.

MR. JANES: I, too, do not know the number, Minister, but that program,

the Grand Bank one, of course, was under the regional games concept and they had

literally 1,000 kids come from smaller communities who do not normally get to go

up and compete at provincial games and so on, but they did come together. It is

the kind of games, in that case, that can be done very efficiently because the

boys and girls do not come and stay overnight, so the whole accommodation piece

is not a part of that. It is a program that involves a lot of people at low

cost. Now, of course, with the funding through the sport bilateral with Sport

Canada, we are able to actually support more of that happening in regions

throughout the Province.

MR. JOYCE: Just to clue up, I say to the minister.

MR. SHELLEY: I was going to say, we can get you the details on that, the

program and application process.

MR. JOYCE: I will send it out to the schools in the Bay of Islands area.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, through the federation.

MR. JOYCE: Not only did I drop people, but I know what it felt like to be

dropped in Grade 7, 8 and 9.

MR. SHELLEY: I can understand why you were dropped.

MR. JOYCE: They used to call me the donkey, because I used to get the

flick all the time.

MS FOOTE: And you are still getting dropped.

MR. SHELLEY: In all kinds of ways.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, thanks for your forthright answers today. I know a

lot of people, especially in the cultural community, will be pleased that there

will be a date set. Soon they will be in The Rooms and a lot of the major

artworks will be properly stored and maintained.

To the staff who I have dealt with over the years across the Province, there

has been excellent co-operation with the staff and myself, I know, and with a

lot of the groups, as well. I know Mr. Janes quite well, over the years going on

different events, and I can assure you that Newfoundland and Labrador is well

represented when they get off the Island. I know Mr. Janes is a major component

and the rest of the staff in the department. Over in Western Newfoundland and

throughout, the staff are excellent people to deal with. Their hearts and souls

are into it.

Thank you for your forthright answers and thanks for your frank discussion. I

thank the officials for their input. This is not confrontational, this is just

sometimes the way we operate, so please do not take any of this personal,

because it is not. It is just trying to get answers and this is way we operate

sometimes. It is just part of getting the answers. From my personal point of

view, thank you very much, as the opposition for Tourism. I thank you for your

answers.

I have to say, Minister, of course, this is not usually done, but when it

came to The Rooms issue, instead of making a big political issue, I am glad that

we could sit down and work together with the arts community. It would have been

great to beat the government over the head with a mallet on The Rooms issue but

I do not think we would have gotten as much accomplished, and the thing was to

get the goal accomplished. When myself and Mr. Harris came to you and asked you

to meet with the group, you did quite willingly, and I thank you for that. I

think now, because of co-operation with the arts community, yourself, myself and

Mr. Harris, the results have been put forth and who is going to benefit is

Newfoundland and Labrador. Finally, I can say, we can see that co-operation does

work sometimes in politics. I thank the officials again.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Joyce.

Ms Foote.

MS FOOTE: I still have a couple of questions, and I am encouraged to

heard about the Festival of Sport. I think that is a wonderful initiative, and I

am glad it is going forward. Again, it is interesting when I talk about the

relationship between Saint Pierre and Newfoundland and Labrador on the Burin

Peninsula, in particular, when we hosted the Burin Peninsula Summer Games, Saint

Pierre participated.

MR. SHELLEY: They came to that.

MS FOOTE: It was amazing. The feeling was just wonderful, and I would

encourage more and more of that, because, again, the exposure to another culture

meant so much to the young people who participated in those games.

MR. SHELLEY: Absolutely.

MS FOOTE: They went away raving about the experience and wanting more of

it, because, of course, who are they going to compete with? Not Saint Pierre and

Miquelon.

MR. SHELLEY: There is a uniqueness there.

MS FOOTE: It is an opportunity for them as well.

I was just wondering, when you look at 4.1.01, Recreation - Operations, 10,

Grants and Subsidies, and you elaborated on what was included in that, I am

curious as to whether or not there is any money available for community

playgrounds. There used to be and I know that communities in my district availed

of that. Is there any funding there for that now?

MR. SHELLEY: I will make this comment - and Vic can be more specific -

basically, there are some small grants, as you know, and we are hoping to

continue with that. Each member will get a $2,000 grant. That type of thing can

be used in that particular - are you talking about capital for playgrounds?

MS FOOTE: This was in addition to that. There was always some money you

could avail of for community playgrounds.

MR. SHELLEY: Vic, maybe you can answer that.

MR. JANES: Yes. Within our municipal capital program we have two

components. One component, that you just alluded to, is where each one of the

electoral districts is allocated $2,000, and the MHA disburses according to the

need and so on within the region. Also, there is a portion of money left that is

used, and it is application driven. When a community does have a need they come

forward. Very often it can be things like playground development. Quite often it

ends up to be something where a component gives out in a major facility in a

community, i.e., a chiller goes in an arena and they cannot make ice any longer,

or there is a bad roof leak in a recreation centre. There is not a lot of money.

The total program is $227,000 for both components, so by the time you back one

component there is really only $120,000 left that can go on the application

driven side of that equation.

MS FOOTE: When will we hear about the $2,000 grants for each district,

because normally we would hear about that in January.

MR. SHELLEY: We will hear about that very soon. We are just trying to

finalize that, with everything sort of backed up because of the situation with

the strike and so on, but we will know about that soon. As Vic said, most of

that goes to those types of things he mentioned. There are small amounts there,

you know, $500 to $2,000, that type of thing, if there is anything left for such

things as playgrounds, through an application process.

MS FOOTE: Okay.

Under Culture and Heritage, 3.1.05, I have to ask about the funding for the

Newfoundland and Labrador Film Development Corporation. Obviously, there is no

federal revenue this year, which of course means that the Film Development

Corporation will get a grant of $180,000 only, I am assuming, based on what I am

seeing here. What impact is that going to have on the Film Development

Corporation?

MR. SHELLEY: That is our portion, the $180,000, but what I understand is

the feds are going to complement that and we will end up back at the same

amount.

MS FOOTE: So, they are going to come back? I notice there are no federal

revenues. They are going to come back with another $385,000?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes. They have not made the commitment by the time that the

Estimates where done, but we understand that this will be the same..

MS FOOTE: Good..

I guess, in closing - I am looking at your budget for 2003-2004, the initial

budget of $562,000 and revised $606,000, and still your estimate for 2004-2005

is $567,000. I am just curious. You say you longer have responsibility for parks

and the art procurement program is not up and running this year. Where are the

savings? Where do we realize the savings as a result of those two initiatives on

longer being part of the department?

MR. SHELLEY: Are you talking about the overall amount, now?

MS FOOTE: Yes, the overall amount. I would have thought I would have seen

greater savings there.

MR. CROCKER: Do you mean because the parks and the wildlife is not

included anymore in Tourism?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. CROCKER: Well, the budget would have been restated in the other

department, Environment and Conservation, so you would not see our - a restated

original budget is what appears in the Estimates. So, you would not have -

MS FOOTE: Oh, without it.

MR. CROCKER: Right. Exactly.

MS FOOTE: Oh, I am sorry. Okay.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate your frankness and the depth with

which you answered the questions. It is really a good opportunity for us to get

these answers because, of course, we are asked questions all the time and it

makes it a lot easier for us when we have the complete knowledge, or as much

knowledge as we can gain, from an opportunity like this.

So, thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Foote.

Before I call a vote on subheads, I am just wondering if anyone else would

have any questions or comments for the minister or his officials?

MS JOHNSON: Just a quick comment. Being from a rural district, certainly

we depend on small business which is interrelated to tourism and so on, so I am

certainly appreciative of the budget, the assistance there. Also, one final

thing I have to say, you know the people of this Province will certainly

benefit, because I do not think there is a better fit for this department than

the minister who is there.

MR. SHELLEY: I thank the member, but I want to say, just in concluding,

the fact of the matter is this is a positive department and I have a great

staff, as other ministers who have been there know, especially my predecessor

who did a good job. You know, this is something that everybody in the Province

knows is growing and this could be positive. I wish my Opposition - I will not

call him what he does not want to be called - member was here. I have known him

a long time, and I have dealt with it as an Opposition member, being

constructive. With something as sensitive as The Rooms and so on, I appreciate

that a lot of times in Question Period, especially, things can get muddled. You

used this opportunity here to ask those questions and we will communicate and

move forward. My attitude about the whole situation, and not just The Rooms but

anything that appears to be negative - it is a delay and it is something that we

have to move forward with. I think, if we involve everybody in that process - I

still believe, and I will state here today, that a year delay, in a sort of

roundabout way, may give us that advantage of involving more people in the

process. Then, when we do open The Rooms, because it is for years after we open

it - as one artist had said in one particular meeting: One year is a short time

in the life of arts and culture.

I know it is a negative, but I say to the member now that he is back, the

approach that he has taken I respect, because I had it for eleven years when I

was there. I was constructive most times. I know it happens that we get off

track sometimes in the sitting of the House of Assembly, but we move forward

with what we are talking about because it is positive for everybody. I like

involving people, and I think this is going to be a way of including more people

in the arts and culture community in a say on this great icon that is going to

become part of our tourism and be a foundation for us in years to come.

I appreciate all the questions today, and I have worked well, I have to say,

with the member so far to date. Any time he has questions, he knows he can ask

me and I will give him answers as straight as can be. We are going to see us

move forward.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Thank you too very much, Mr. Shelley.

Any further questions?

I ask the clerk now to call the subheads.

CLERK: 1.1.01 to 5.1.01 inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall subheads 1.1.01 to 5.1.01 inclusive carry?

AN HON. MEMBER: Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 5.1.01 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total heads carry?

AN HON. MEMBER: Carried.

CHAIR: Carried.

CHAIR: Shall the estimates of the Department of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation for the fiscal year 2004-2005 carry, without amendments?

AN HON. MEMBER: Carried.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, total heads

carried.

At this time, as the Chair, I would like to thank the minister and his

officials for a fine job this morning. It is certainly obvious that the minister

is very appreciative and understanding of the department that he heads up, and I

think that came through and the people on the committee certainly recognized

that. I would also like to thank our staff here this morning here again, the

researcher with the Opposition, and also the members on our committee.

Before we adjourn, we have the minutes of the meeting that was held last

night of the Resource Committee, so I would like to ask for a motion now to

adopt these minutes.

MR. JOYCE: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Joyce. Seconded by Mr. O'Brien, that the minutes of

Wednesday evening, May 12, be adopted as circulated.

All those in favour, aye'

AN HON. MEMBER: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, nay'.

Motion carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: The only other thing now is, the next meeting will be held this

evening at seven o'clock here, and at that time we will debating the Estimates

for the new Department of Business.

With that, I would like to ask for a motion to adjourn. Mr. O'Brien.

MR. O'BRIEN: So moved.

MR. O'BRIEN: This meeting is adjourned.

On motion, Committee adjourned.