Volum e 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNO.LAND THIRTY-sEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, MAY 7, 1976 Number 59 SPEAKER ; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER ,.

"ay 7, 1976 '!'ape 2530 The Fouse met at 10:00 A.". ~'r. Speaker in the f'ha:lr. l'P. SPEAK~R: ~. SPEAY.EJ' : ~'R. ROBERTS: On'!er, please! STAT~TS BY MINISTERS: The hon. Lea!ler of the Oppositi.on.

I am not po:lng to make a ministerial statement, IB-1 obviously, but in linE' ,,,:lth thE' tradition that this House takes note by resolution of cPrta:l .n events in the Province, may I be permitted P.ither to ~ove or to second - it ~ight be appropriate for the House Leacler on the p:overmnent !'Iitie to move it in the absence of the Premier - that the House has extentled congratulations, Sir, to two of our colleagues in the !louse, fello"' members who have been appointed as chancellors of the two new dioceses of Central Newfoundland and of F.;ostern Net~foundland and Labrador, the latter being the House Leader himself and the former being the gentleman for St.

John's East (Hr. "arshall). It Nas with a very great deal of pleasure that I learned, Sir, that a former member of the House,and a man who may return to the House at some po:lnt,but a former member of the House, ¥r. Clyde Wells of r.orner Brook has been appointec1 chancellor of the Hestern diocese or the diocese of Uestern Newfoundland.

I think 1 t t~ould be appr.opr:l_ate Sir, anil either I move :It in my own name or I will give '-'BY to the government Honse Leacler if that is his wish, that we should send a suitable resolut:l.on or a suitable indication of our acknO'I>'ledgement of this anil our conp,ratulations to ~!r. lvells .• ~'1'. NEA.ll.Y: T''ho t¥orked on the new synod, I think. }~. ROBPJ'TS: Yes, I was going to mention that. ~'R. !lEArY: }<r. Hells tvas one of the architect•. }'l'. POBEPTS: I think tve should send a suitable indication of our feel i.np,s on this oc.casion. ¥r.

Clyde Wells is well known I knotv to all of the members of the Rouse. Re served with distinction in this House on bot'P sides in the - I am not sure if it was the thirty-fourth or thirty-fifth General Assembly, the General Assembly elected in 1966. 7 0 {j 1

~·~~y 7. 1976 Tape 2530 I~-2 I"P.. nom:rrrs: lie served as a member of the l'mallwood Adronistration until he left it on a tMtter of pr inciple and then stood and fough t for his beliefs fro~ the ~ppositio n side . Re has been very active 1n many facets of puhl:!c life incl udin g in particular the work of the Anglican Church in the diocese of Newfoundland and Labrador and now in the ~estern diocese. fie was one of the tnen who was very involved with the Archbishop, the Rt. Rev. Pobert L.

Seaborn, under the Archbishop ' s direction in preparing the moves which bavenow resulted in the creation of the three new dioceses. Altogether a most appropriate choice for the i~ortant position of chancellor,and 1 would suttSe&t, Sir , that the nous e would wish )lr. llells well, to conp.ratubte him on his appointment and to wish him a long and a successful tenure of the office of chancellor. 1 would hope, Sir, in due course a lonp and successf ul tenure of other public offices hecause I believe , Sir, that n r.

C:lytle Wells has done T'!llch for the p.ood of this Province anti 1 believe he has much more yet to do , Sir . SO>'E liON • ~7.1-'BET>S : Rear , hear! 70 G2

May 7, 1976 Tape 2531 PK - 1 The bon. Minister without Portfolio. Mr. Speaker, it certainly gives us great pleasure and as the hon. Leader of the Opposition has moved the motion by all means rather than as he said deferring to me to move it, I will certainl y accept the fact 'that he has II'OVed it, and gladly for our part second it. Mr. Wells,as he says,was a distinguished member of this House. He has had a distinguished career in his profession. He has done a great deal of work as has been said in setting up the new system.

And certainly I am sure we all are very, very pleased that he has been chosen to be Chancellor of the Western Diocese, and I think we can certainly speak for our side when I say that we agree and extend congratulations to him, and that he be suitably written from the House. Hear, hear! k!.!!• SPEAKER : The bon. member for TWillingate. MR. J. R. SMALLr!OOD: It is one of the fine offices tfiat any one might hold in Newfoundland, and I add my congratulations to the gentleman who has received it. 'MR ._s~_EAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. HON. J.

CROSBIE: I would like to say a word on this, because it is Clyde Wells,of course, who we are congratulating on this appointment. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is this in order? MR. CROSBIE: Yes, it is quite in order. MR. SPEAKER: I think the hon. gentleman is adding his words of congratulations with respect to the appointment of Mr. Wells. MR. __ ~ Does that mean that anybody then can add theirs? ~. SPEAKER: Yes. - - - --- MR.__fROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, having disposed of this intervention, let me carry on and say that I would like to add a few words because of the fact1 that of course during several years here in this House Clyde Wells was a member at the time that I was. We were both members of the original Liberal Reform group • SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CROSBIE: And the predecessor to - I suppose it is the predecessor 7063

Hay 7, 1976 Tape 2531 PK - 2 M'r. Crosbie: to the present Liberal Reform group. And for several years Mr. Wells tried to reform the Liberal Party, but it was not possible under its then Leadership. And of course another attempt is going on now, I do not know if it is necessary or not. But I certainly have a high appreciation of that gentleman's abilities and I am sure he will do a first-class job as Chancellor of the Diocese on the West Coast of the An~lican Church. SOME liON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~iinister of Tourism. HON. T. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, on Friday, April 30, I informed this House about the big game licencing system for 1976. In conjunction with introducing this system my department will be tightening its enforcement activities particularly in relation to illegal hunting of big game. I propose amending

Section 19 of the Wildlife Act which now provides for the cancellation of a licence held by a person convicted for any offenee related to moose or caribou and further provides that the magistrate may prohibit that persons from holding a licence for a period of three years from the date of conviction by increasing the period of prohibition to five years in the case of a first offence and increasing to a lifetime suspension for a second or subsequent offence occurring within two years of the previous conviction and making such suspensions mandatory.

I realize these measures are severe- However, if we are to make our wildlife resource available for future generations so that they can have the opportunity to enjoy their share, I feel such measures are absolutely necessary to help curb the apparent increase in this illegal activity. I would also like to clarify a number of points which have been raised in relation to the new licencing system. We had hoped to have applications for big game licaaaes in the hands of the general public by this weekend.

May 7, 1976 Tape 2531 PK- 3 Mr • . Rickey: However, logi:st;ics have ude it impossible for us to meet this deadline but We hope to have most ·Of the dlstributio~ e.ompleted . by Tuesday of nex-t week. t~e are proces •aing .U applic~tions rece ·ived by the Wildlife DiVision as of Midnight, .June 4. 197·6. AJly appl:l.e'atlon received ' after that d4te will b.e disqualified. btreme 70 65

~~ay 7, 1976 Tape 2532 IB-1 MR. HICKF.Y: care shoul11 be taken in making an application since those applications incorrectly completed will also be disqualified and will not be returned for changes. I might point out, ~r. Speaker, the reason for this is that time will not permit it. We would never get all the applications taken care of if we were to return them or indeed attempt to make the changes. The party system is experimental and its success will depend on the integrity of the hunting public. For those people who elect to hunt on a party license I stress again that only one animal can be taken.

The onus is on the holders of the party license to ensure that only one animal is taken on that license. Should two animals he taken on a party license the second animal will be treated as an illegal k111 and Uhe full extent of the law will prevail. I ask for the full co-operation of the hunting public in thjs matter. There are some 10,494 moose licenses available this year in thirty-five moose management zones. There are also 1,470 caribou licenses available in eight caribou zones.

Zone maps will be distributed with the big game applicaU.on form to assist prospective hunters in choosing the area in Which they may propose to hunt. I should also like to inform members of the House that there will be no black bear season this year. The number of black bears taken by big gam.e hunters is insignificant. However black bear license sales have increased The "nole matter of black bear licenses and open seasons is being thoroughly reviewed by my wildlife division and a new pol:!cy will be developed in this regar11.

However until the assessment has been fully completed and the policy developed the season will remain closed. ~·!J!. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. ~!J!. WAITE: I would like to say a couple of words in connection with that. First of all we welcome the severities announced by the minister with respect to the poaching and the breaking of the law with respect to the hunting of moose and caribou in Newfoundland. For a long time I have maintained, Sir, there was far too much poaching going 7 0 G l!

''ay 7, 1976 Tape 2532 IB-2 "P . Til-liTE : on 1.n Newfound] and and the most severe measures poss:!.ble should be 1.rop]emented w:!th respect to cutting out poachin!! because there :l.s a Jot of it going on in Newfoundland, more than most people realize and heing done by not just those whom you would suspect, the criminally incHned that ~'oulcl be doing :It, but done by other people as well. I am sure the minister knows 1-1hat I am talking about.

Tn relat:lon to the applicat:lons, I assume what the minister is sayine there is that the date has been changed from f.fay 17 to June 4 for the submission of appJications. This was a little bit - I worried about this first when I saw it because I wondered if people hac1 enough time to get their appl:!.cations and get them filled out to get them fn and so on and so forth. So '{.7e we] come this change and I am sure moose hunters across the Provinee will be happy about that. I am glad to see the blac~ bear licenses done away with.

They have only been used as an excuse by hunters to get in the woods "d th a p;un in the last few years and it is half the reason for the larr.e amount of poachinp th11t has been p:oing on. ~o I think it is a ~oocl thinp:. """" ~PEAKEF: ~ "P • PE r.KFOlm: NOTir.ES OF HOTION: '!'he hon. ~!inister of Hunidpal Affairs and Housing. ~·r. Spe11ker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow as~ leave to introduce a. bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of Corner Brook Act". (Bill No. 33) I'T'. SPEAKEP : The hon. }'in is ter of Health • ~'T'. H. roLLINS: Yr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask le11ve to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Solemnization Of ~'arri>tfl:e .A.ct, 197lf. 11 (Bill No. 54). ¥R. SPF.AFE~: The hon. l'l'in:l.ster of Provincial Affairs and Environment. ~'R. }f!Tl'IPHY: Hr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorro~' I will ask ]eave to :Introduce a bill, "An Act To 'Register ~'ortgage Brokers And To r.ontrol The Anount Of Bonuses To Be Charged Ily }<ortgage Brokers And 1!ortgage !.enders." (Bill No. 55) 70G7

~ fay 7, 1976 'tape 2532 IB-3 VR. SPEAKF.R.: The bon. 1-{in:f.ster of J-ustice. 1'T!. RIOOV,N: ~~r. flpeaker, I giv~ notice . that I will 0t1 tomorrow ask lel\ve to introduce a b:fll, "An AC!t To Amend The Companies Act." (RtJ J No. 53) A.~'R!' TO QllEflTIONS FOP WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: }"'. ST'F.Alffil!: 'P . Hnn~R: ~e bon, Yinister of Education. I .1ust ,;r.;~nt to -an!!lole'l' a question aa~d yesterday by the hon. membet; for Terra l'qova (¥r. Lush) regarding the school tax colle.ctt:lon. The baJ.l park figure when the authority began here was $4 million or $4,100,000.

As I said that ~.rasa ball park figure .• They rev;l.sed it this year when they saw how things were coming in when the:f .r assessments had gone out to $3.6 million. Now the total take or the total amount paid to school boards at the end of the. fitst nine month period is $1,924~01)0. That 1.s $600,000 more or forty per cent ll'!nre than the total for last year in assessments. It m.ust be borne in mind that 70 G

Hay 7, 1'17F. HR. nousr. : I' Tape 2533 RH - 1 lRst year's assessments, of course, were taking into account arrears in the p~tst also. If it comes in at the same rate now without picking up the final arrears they wi lJ collect about, by the end of July this year when their ye11r is up,ahout $2.7 million which is double the amount that was taken in hy assessments last year. There is approximately $1 million then under the assessment of ~3,,; million or $qnn,nnn under. Of course, a lot of this is made up - first of all in the business, they have not been able to ~et ·the husiness, the total co-operation.

They have about $300,000 outstanding on husiness. There is about $200,000 on the Federal Government. They have not been a'ble to get the poll or the exemptions from the Federal Government. They are co-operating now with their employees. There is about $200,0'10 to set up the structure and another $200,000 outstanding in poll tax. So \vhat I am saying is that it will be double the amount of the assessment last year hy the enrl of July. Right nm,r it is forty per cent above the assessment of last year. ORAL (lUl'STIONS: li'F.

SPFAKI'.R: The hon. memher for Trinity-Bay de Verde, and then the hon. memher for LaPoile. l'!R. l'. ROHJ': Mr. Speaker, I \~ould like to direct a question to the l-iinister of Transportation and Communication. Has the minister received a telegram from the to~ council of Ray de Verde requesting his immediate attention to the hazardous conditions of the rock cut entering that particular community because the frost action of the past Winter, has loosened the entire face of the cliff and rocks are presenting a serious hazard to the traffic goin~ to that particular community?

Has the minister received a teler,ram from the town council? MR. SPl'.AKF.n: The hon. }linister of Transportation and Communication. lffi. J. HORGAN: Mr. Speaker, yes a telegram was received approximately tt~o l'eel<s ago from the town council of Bay de Verde indicating the need for some corrective ac.tion. The same matter was discussed with the council sometime this p>~.st ~.Jinter at a meeting ~1ith them in my office. I referred 7ocn

'lmr 7, 1"'71'>. ~T-. HORGAN: Tape :'533 RH - 2 t1•r. te1 cp.:rm'l to a maintenance engineer and as ken him to have the maintenance forces in tl1at area take some corrective action. ~-IR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for Trinity-Ray de Verde. ~ supplementary.

Can the minister assure the House, Sir, thnt there ~•ill he a thorough scaling of the eli ffs as requested going into Bay tie Verde because the anst~er that the minister just gave me tvas the s:1me answer the tlele11ation got last Winter and nothing has been done since. ~m • srEATrF.R : The han. l1inlster of Transportation and Communication. tn;>. ~!ORGAN: No, !!r. Speaker, I cannot assure them that there will be a total scaling of that cliff.

But I have asked the engineering staff afl well as the maintenance staff to take a look and to give recommendations, in other tvords, the engineering staff to recommend to the maintenance forces exactly what precautionary measure and what corrective action should be taken. HP.. ROI-IF.: Let us hope we do not have a tragedy. f'<R. SPEAKER: The hon. mewher for LaPoile. HR. S. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I would like to dlrect a questfon to the H1.nister of Hines and Energy, Sir, fre"'h back from the federal-provincial conference in Ottmva.

I would like to ask the minister what position this government is takin~ regarding the new energy policy and the increase in heat:lnp.: fuel and p;a~;oline? Is the government's policy any different from th.'lt of the official Opposition, that they go along with it? Is this p,overnment fighting the policy tooth and nail? Hould the minister enlighten the House as to whether or not they have managed to straighten ·.out Ouebec •rH~\ -regard to the boundary situation, that it is non-negotiable? ~!R . ST'EAJ'ER: The hen. "inister of }lines and Energy. TTON. J. r.ROSBIF.: ~'r.

Speaker, with respect to the second part of the 'JH<"~tion first, ~'r. Speaker, Quebec has certainly been straightened out. 'P:ere is no further straightening to be done. They knm~ our position perfectly clearly on the boundary or any sale of land in Labrador. So that is bein~ man(' perfectly clear. ''R . NFARY: No recent plan? 70i0

l;~ y 7' 1°7 6. Tape 2533 RH - 3 }ffi. CROSJHF: I think I just answered the question, }~r. Speaker, that they kno"' our position on the boundary and t.hat we would not sell them any land :l.n Labrador. There is no change s!nce I last spoke on the matter in the House last ~•eek. As far as oil and ga.s prices are concerned the Province's position has heen and still is - the Premier was presenting it yesterday - that it is recognized that the federal ROVernment's case, that the price of oiJ and gas has to be allowed to rise gradually towards world levels, that this case is not one that one can argue with, that 707t

May 7, 1976 Tape no. 2534 Page 1 - mw Mr. Crosbie. overthe next few years this has to come about. That is the federal government's position and most provinces accept the fact that that is so.

Our position this year has been that any increase this year should be a minimal one because of the present economic situation, because of the present inflation, the present unemployment, and the fact that the economy is coming out of a recession, that any increase this year should be kept as low as possible and $1.05 is the lowest increase that anyone has suggested?or we have suggested that it should not be in excess of $1.05, the increase on July 1 or whenever that is permitted. The reasons for the fact that there has to be some increase has been outlined by the Government of Canada in detail.

They have detailed those, the fact that their tevenue on the export tax in Western oil is declining, that that revenue plus the ten cents a gallon excise tax they imposed on gasoline last year are not giving them sufficient revenue to meet the subsidy they are paying on Eastern oil, the fact that we have to encourage frontier development and exploration for oil and gas in the Arctic and off the East Coast of Canada and so on and so forth. It has all been detailed in their •tatement. The Province's position, as I say, Mr.

Speaker, is that we feel any increase this year should be minimal, kept as low as possible, and that is the position we have put forward. There has been no agreement on it. There is not going to be any agre~t on it. There was no agreement on it yesterday. The Premiers are not going to agree. There is no unanimous agreement on what should happen and, therefore, the matter has to be left to the Government of Canada to decide with the Government of Alberta, and the Government ·of Saskatchewan. There is nothing any of the other provinces can do.

It is only the Government of Canada who has the jurisdiction and the authority to either continue a subsidy or to permit an increase or not permit it. 7072

May 7, 1976 Tape no. 2534 Page 2 - mw Mr. Crosbie. So now it will be in the hands of the Government of Canada. And what they are going to suggest I do not know, The highest amount that has been suggested seems to be $2.00 a barrel. This seems to be suggested by the producing provinces. MR. NEARY: What is the price now? MR. CROSBIE: The price now is $8.00 a barrel, and there is a subsidy of roughly $5.50 in Eastern Canada which the federal government pays. What seems to be suggested is that it may go up to $2.00 a barrel.

On the other hand because we have been arguing and other provinces have been arguing it should be aa low as possible this year in view of our economic circumstances. It is possible that it will be less than that. But there will be an increase. There is no doubt. It will be between $1 and $2. The top figure anyone suggested is $2. MR. NEARY: What about the subsidy? MR.

CROSBIE: Well that would mean that the Government of Canada would reduce its subsidy by that amoun~ If they agree that the price of gas or oil is going up $2 a barrel, then in Eastern Canada they would reduce their subsidy $2 a barrel, and the Eastern Canada price will go up $2 a barrel.

The price in the United States, the average price in the United States now - and they have a different system, they have a system of old oil and new oil, and it is quite a complicated system - is about $10.80 a barrel, and everyone has urged that the price in Canada certainly must not exceed the price in the United States because of trade .competition and the like. So the general feeling is that it will be somewhere between $1 and $2 and now it is in the hands of the Government of Canada to make a decision with Alberta and Saskatchewan. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Ur. Speaker, a supplementary.

A supplementary . Could the minist ·er then give the House the forecast, say, for the next five years? The minister has told us 707J

Hay 7, 1976 Tape no. 2534 Page 3 - mw Mr. Neary. that this year it may increase if the recommendation of this Province - and I presume the minister did not make it clear that this Province was joined by the other Atlantic Provinces in this matter to 7 07 ·~

May 7, 1976 Tape 2535 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: try to hold it to $1.05. But what about the next three to five years will there be drastic increases? And would the minister indicate whether or not any money that is collected in the way of revenue of the public treasury, the Government of Canada and so fiorth will be used to increase exploration off our shores, off our Continental Shelf as we are led to believe or will it all go into the public treasury and just be used for other purposes of general revenue? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR . CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, we have not recommended any move to the Goverrunent of Canada. The Government of Canada has its own policy and it is instituted, and it has the jurisdiction and control, and it has instituted, you know, its own recommendations and it started this whole system of subsidization for which we must feel ourselves to be very lucky. We are not recommending that there will be any change this year. We are simply stating that if there is one that it should be kept as low as possible.

And we cannot in all fairness, you know, disagree with the Government of Canada's position that there has to be some change, although we feel there should be a gradual one. As to what happens to the revenue that is very complicated. Any additional revenue, some of it goes to the producing provinces in taxes, some of it will go to the Federal Government, the oil companies will get an increased cash flow from it from which they use the cash flow to go on with further exploration and development in the Arctic and offshore areas. That is very much to be desired.

Now in our own offshore area Eastcan is pressing ahead this year. They will have an · extansive programme off Labrador. And, you know, that could cost considerable monies. So our own effort off the East Coast of Canada, the Labrador area is the most prospective, plus the North East Newfoundland area. And there will be considerable activity this year. MR. F. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The bon. member for Lewisporte. 7075

May 7, 1976 Tape 2535 PK - 2 MR. F. WHITE: I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether or not he gained any information while he was in Ottawa with respect to the Federal Government's position regarding the subsidization of electrical rates in the Atlantic Provinces and whether Newfoundland would come under such a scheme? ~fR. SPUKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, as hon. members know there are already subsidization of - I think you said electrical rates, was it? - HR. WHITE: lo!R. CROSBIE: Yes.

The hon. gentleman I guess is referring to, at least I assume he is referring to the position put forward by Nova Scotia that they should have a special assistance, because most of their electricity is produced by oil fired steam plants, MR. NOLAN: They have no hydro MR. CROSBIE: Yes, they have some ~ydro. Yes, I think, 65 per cent of Nova Scotia's energy comes from oil. Well they put forward a plea that they should get special assistance. P.E.I. is 100 per cent. Newfoundland, I think, in the year that just ended, was about 15 per cent.

Of course all of our rural areas or most of our rural areas are oil, the diesel areas. And the steam plant at Holyrood is coming on to be used more and more now, and will be fully, you know, operating most of the time from now on. So our percentage use of oil fired steam power will be increasing, Rut Nova Scotia has made a plea to the Federal Government that they should have special assistance. The position we have taken in this Provtnce is that you cannot isolate just one thing like that. It is true that Nova Scotia has a special problem because most of its electricity is generated from oil.

But in devising any programme of assistance it should be based not on just that factor, you have to look at the per capita income of the people in each province, you know, the cost of living in the province, the unemployment figures and all the various indices. And if that is done then Newfoundland would have a stronger case for special assistance than Nova Scotia. You just 7 07 6

May 7, 1976 Tape 2535 PK - 3 Mr. Crosbie: cannot take one piece of the picture and just look at that. Now the Government of Canada has indicated wherever this has come up, at least at the Energy Ministers meetings and Finance Ministers meetings,that they are not gming to agree to any special assistance for Nova Scotia and P.E.I. I do not know, well the subject probably came up at the Prime Minister's meeting yesterday, and,you know, the Premier will be able to comment on that. So their position certainly up to date is that there will be no special assistance. Now the Premier and I had a meeting with Mr.

Gillespie on Wednesday morning, this is Friday, Wednesday morning in which we reviwwed the whole situation with him and the importance of hydro. And we have put to Mr. Gillespie our disappointment on the energy statement, I do not know if hon. gentlemen opposite have received copies of that, they probably have, the Government of Canada's book that they just sent out on their energy policy for the next few years. The very disappointing lack of any men~ion of hydro~ there is a mention of hydro, but just an incidental one, the policy concerns itself with oil and gas and pipelines and the like and nuclear.

And our disappointment at the fact that they are not giving any great emphases to hydro, and they seem to ignore hydro, 7077

l"ay7,1976 T11pe 2536 IB-1 ~IT'. r.RO~BU': nnd the Jmportance of developing a hydro :Inventory. '!'he federal r:overnwent should help finance that, more assistance on transmission lines and even hydro development itself. Those general matters were cl:lscussecl with )<r. C:ilJespie on Wednesday and I think that he was nu:lte :Interested in the points being made, he and his off:lc:l.als. And vie 11-re hop:l.nr: they w:llJ become more active in the hydro field.

T'p to now the Government of Canada has pretty well left it up to the provinces to develor hydro or to have their own pol:l .cies on hydro. l~:l]e they have offered assistance on transmission lines 1 and they will supply fifty per cent of the financin~ for the first nuclear plant in any province, you knm• their role has been rather an in~tct:lve one in the field of hydro development. We pointed out to Hr.

Gillespie that there is not difference between, in theory or in practice, an oil and gas tr1'tnsmission line which they authorize to be built.to go across provincial boundaries, oil or gas pipeline which they h~tve done no" for years. Under the ~NA Act I think these ;~re works declared to be for the general or national i.nterest of r:marla.

There :1 s no clifference bett~een a line that carries oil an<:l. ga~ t;rh:fch is energy and a transmission line) and that the Government of r.anada should consider transmission lines to carry electricity in ex~tctly the same way and treat them the same vray as they treat o:!l ani! gas pipelines. In oil and gas for exaMple they do not ask Alberta or ~'an:! toha or Ontario, can we have permission to put an oil and gas pipe- l:lne across your province. They go ahead and do it because they have the pmo~er under the m~A Act to do it and they could do that for dcctr:!r1ty. ~o we also discussed that w:l.th ~'r.

Gil] esp:f_e and energy milrtf'rs r:cner11lly but in parttcular hydro. ''!'. 'lEAPY: ~·r. ~peaker, " question to the minister- }IT'. SPJ\AKEP.: Actuallv I had indicated to4the han. member for r.onception Ray South (r·•r. Nolan) that I would recognize h:f_m and he has been waiting for some time. So I th:!.nk I shall do so now. There may to~ell be further supp]ementaries later on. If the hon. member for Conception Bay 7078

~·av 7, 1976 Tape 2536 IB-2 ~. SPF.AY.ER: South~ (?.,.r. Nolan) wishes to yield obviously that is his privHege. With respect to supplementaries as hon. members know the general rule is that there will be suppleaentaries by members at the discretion of the Speaker. There have been a number and one of the factors I take into consideration is,you know,whether there are other members who have been waiting for some time to put a question. Nothing of course precludes coming back to the subject again. The rules are quite elastic there. They say there can be a number depending upon the discretion.

I think one of the factors one has to bear in mind is whether there are other members who obviously wish to ask a question which is not supplementary. So I would recognize the hon. member for Conception Bay South. As the hon. members know there is nothing to preclude coming back to the subject of the previous questions later during the Question Period. HI'. NOLAN: Thank you, ''r. Speaker. I thank you very, very much because I wanted to ask this question as we have been on this situation regarding the 1'in:lster of }'ines and Energy since we started the Ouest :I on l'eriod.

I was fearful I may not g~t some of the questions in that I hed for the ~<inister of Transportation and Communications. 1,Tith his permission <1.nd the permission of the House I have a question rer.ard:l.np a number of items actually. One is the Trans-Canada Highway and the negotiations that have been going on regarding funds from Ottawa for the Trans-Canada 1and the DREE projects on roads that are currently underw«y which we h«ve had no public discussion on in this House to the best of my knowledge at the moment' and for that matter the Summer maintenance pror,ramme.

Now I realize that :l.s tyinl!; a lot into one and I can appreciate the fact that the m:!.n:lster may not want to answer one of the questions that T h<1ve t:led in here. That is entirely up to him. But I know that this :Is a matter of 11:re>~.t interest to many areas of the Province and I would apprednte any information he could provide at this time. >'Tl. SPEAKEr: '!'he hon. t!inister of Transportation and Communications. 7079

•·:w 7, l tl7f Tape 2536 IB-3 •·r . l'pen'-Pr, Jn reply to these fluestions~ with regards rn thl' "'rnnf'-rpn:ocla Piph.:ay ancl our negotiations ~!ith the fetleral rovP.rn!"'!nt, our rPquest!< MPcle to thel!l, as n re11nlt of MY l!leet1nrs .,ith thP. fcclcra1 off:ldAls in the surface cliv1sion of the "1nistry of '1'rnn::pnrr- .1pprnxil"l\tPl)l t•·•n 1~eeks aro, "" TueRday of ne;r.t week f.our tnp officials will hP here in the Province meetinr first of all l!itb myself and ll'V officials on next Tuesday afternoon. On lvednesday they ~rill be leavinr ~t. John's to travel the Trans-r.anacla ~:lehway fr<'m ~t .

John ' s to l'<'rt aux Rast~ues to carry out an inspection of the hi~hway and to make a report to their ~inister. I am hopinp. thAt as a result of my meet:ln~s with them that they will make recommendations. I All' all'o hoping while they are herP. in the ProvJnce that they ,..HJ pet 11 first hnnd look at the increased volume of traffic, espectAll y the t-ractnr-tuUer traffic, on the Trans-Canada Ri,:thway. Th·ls ill an fl"f>r>Ttant factor. So they w'lll be J eaving St. John 's T understancl ~ednes~ay ~rniny after my meet1~g with them on Wednesday anrl trAvell:ln~ from here

.• May 7, 1976 Tape No. 2537 NM- 1 MR. MORGAN: to Port aux Basques and their trip will be approximately three days in the Province. So I am hoping that the recommendations will be made to the minister that something be done with regards to the reconstruction and the upgrading work necesaary on the Trans Canada Highway. With reference to the nREE projects in the Province, all hon. gentlemen will probably see the tender call today in the papers. The Federal Minister of DREE, the hon. Mr. Lesaard, has given my department the authority to call tenders for seven projects and these are now listed in today's paper.

The DREE agreement has not been signed to date but because of the lateness in the. season and because of the short construction season we have in this Province, at my meetings in Ottawa ··recently I requested for them to give us authority to call tenders on the projects that we feel would be obviously included in this year's agreement and for us to go ahead and call tenders to ~et the contractors moving and the projects under way. Now these projects are today called and the tender call is in today's publications of the papers.

But there is no actual agreement signed so hecaue of that I cannot comaent on what projects will be carried out and what we anticipate will he included in the two year agreement. With regard to the summer maintenance programme and the work we will be carrying out this summer, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House that May 12th. this year will be the commencement of our summer maintenance prosramme and it will this year end on the 28th. day of September.

This is a change of policy from previous years based on the fact that every Fall it seems that my department gets caught with its pants down,if you wish,and snow storms come along and there are situations where our men and equipment are not prepared for the Winter season. This year I am going to make sure that this is not the case. We are going to cut off the summer maintenance programme the end of September so it will give the 7081

May 7, 1976 Tape No. 2537 NM- 2 MR. MORGA.~ : men the month of October to prepare for the Winter. And as of May 12th., in fact next Kondayl! have assigned this year a special crew to do line markings on our roads in the Province. I am givinp, top priority to the Trans Canada Highway. They will commence work next week and they wil ~ be doing nothing else this summer only line markings.

And in conjunction with that, in doing the line markings first of all on the Trans Canada Highway I will be removing these controversial signs we have on the Trans Canada Highway which now read, "Slower traffic keep right," a firm deci~ion is now being made. These signs will be removed in the month of May, as soon as the line markings are completed. As the line markings are done the signs will be removed as well, and the new sip,ns will read, "Keep right except to pass." SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. MORGAN: So, Mr.

Speaker, with reference to the regular maintenance units, also this year we will have a special unit in each region of the Province which will be assigned to carry out local road work in unincorporated communities where we have local roads but the communities sometimes are left out. In the fall of the year they still are requesting to get some local road work done. So this year there will be special units designed and assigned to do that kind of work, just local road work in these unincorporated communities. }ffi. SPEADB.: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy which grows out of a statement he made I believe in response to a question here in the House a week or ten days past about charter flights originating here in St. John's and it is hack in the news again today of course. Could the minister tell us whether the government's position is that we should be allowed to have charter flights coming out of St. John's and going -you know originating in St. John's and going directly to where they will, London as a rule, or whether all flights would have to originate as they now must, 7082

May 7, 1976 Tape No. 2537 NM - 3 MR. ROBERTS: as I understand it, in Gander. To go Overseas you must go to Gander. A charter flight cannot come from St. John's, it must originate from Gander. Could the minister tell us,you know, what is the government's position on it and I ask him because he is the man who made some statements here i n the House as ! say a week or ten days past . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker , the position in St. John's Airport has not changed. International eharter flights · have been permitted in the oast to originate f rom St.

John's and should be permitte .d now to originate fr0111 St . John's. That is for groups of people leaving from St. John's. 70 8:1 .. ....

~ay 7, 1q76, Ta~e 2538, Page 1 -- apb 'fR. CROSBIE: There have been difficulties in the last several months with implementing that, where several charter flights have not been permitted to leave from St. John's because of sugp:estions by the Department of Customs and so on, that they do not have the facilities to properly serve them. For the last ten years, twenty years, I do not know what period of time, chartPr fliehts have, for groups that originated in St. John's left from St. John's and returned to St. John's - the St. John's Board of Trade and other groups. MR. HICKMAN: And the schools. }fR.

CROSBIE: And the schools and others. Recently several groups have been refused this permission for their charter flights to leave from St. John's. One is a group of Naval Veterans who are leaving in June, who have been refused that facility, second was a group of children from one of the high schools here in the city who had to go to the expense of getting buses and be driven to Gander for the same purpose. So the government's position, as I understand it, is that that service should continue from St. John's. And that is an entirely different matter and it ~as no connection whatsoever with St.

John's having any status as an international airport. The government's position on that has been very clear, and is still quite clear. The Government of Newfoundland supports only one airport in Newfoundland, on the Island of Newfoundland as an airport that should have international status, and that is Gander Airport. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CROSBIE: The government has never suggested, does not suggest now, and does not intend to suggest that St. John's airport should have international status. MR. ~IURPHY : Or Deer Lake or Stephenville. MR. CROSBIE: Or Deer Lake or Stephenville or any of the r~st.

There should be one international airport on the Island of Newfoundland and that is Gander. Now the difference between that 7084

~ay 7, 1976, Tane 2538, Page 2 -- apb MR. CROSBIE: and the position, say of St. John's now, the position on originating charter flights is quite simple, that other airports in Canada with the same status as St. John's at other airports in Canada with the same •tatua as St. John's originating there. The flight can leave from that particular airport, such as London, Ontario. 1~R. NF.ARY: You cannot have your cake and eat it too. MR. CROSBIE: You can have your cake. It is not a question of having your cake and eating it too. If St. John's had status, if St.

John's had the same status as Gander the position would be that any flight, international flight, could choose to land in St. John's. Any charter flight,no matter where it originated from or from what countrytcould choose St. John's rather than Gander or Gander rather than St. John's. MR. NEARY: Are you Acting Minister of Transportation, or do we not have a Minister of Transportation now? HR. CROSBIE: . I have been asked a que•tion and I am answering it, Mr. Speaker. We do not suggest that this should be so.

Our position is very firm that Gander should have international status and should be the only international airport in Newfoundland and should be the only airport from which scheduled international flights depart or land. It should be the only airport at which Trans-Atlantic flights of any description should be permitted to land. But with respect to St. John's Airport 9we feel that where fli~hts originate in St. John's, charter flights, of groups in St.

John's, that the past practice should continue and that these occasional flights which might amount to four or five or ten a year should be permitted, as they have been in the past, to leave from St. John's. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile, then the hon. the member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. NEARY: ------ }!r. Speaker, I want to get back to the Minister of Mines and Energy again, it is such an impor~nt subject. I will put two questions to the minister to save the trouble of having to ask a second question. Could the minister assure the

~~Y 7, 1976, Tape 2538, Page 3-- apb MR. NEARY: House that if - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I did not hear the hon. )!;entleman, or it too:k s0111e time for me to realize exac ,tly what he was asking. I would suggest that he ask one question at a time. 'MR. NEARY: One quest.ion _at a time? All right, Your Honour. I would like to a.sk the minister if the ~overDDient will lower the provincial tax on gasoline in order to off-set the severE blow that the increase in gasoline and heating fuel is going to have on the consume.r in this 'rovince? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Mi.nister of Mines and Energy. MR.

CROSBIE: The government will suggest to the Federal Liberal Government in Ottawa, that it drop the additional ten cents a gallon exc.ise tax on gasoline that it imposed last year if .there is any increase in the price of oil or gas. This government,as hon. gentlemen ~. in its fina~ial position is not in any position to d:rop the tax;es on gasoline or anything else. The federal government is. They imposed an additional ten cents last year and they could quite easily remove that.

The effect of a two dollar increase, I think, in the price of oil would be about six or seven cents a gallon on gasoline, and the federal gover'l1!11ent could just adjust that by taking off their excise tax they imposed last year. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. 70 fi

May 7. 1976 Tape no. 2539 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: In connection with the offshore drilling for gas and oil off Labrador by Eastcan can the minister assure the House that if there is a discovery offshore that the oil or gas will not be piped into Quebec Province, that it will be kept in Newfoundland and that Newfoundland will get the revenue? And can the minister tell us if there is anything new on negotiations for the offshore rights on gas and oil and minerals? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, you know, no government can speak so far ahead of the event about gas o~ oil or whatever. And, of course, unless the Province of Newfoundland is found to have, as we suggested does have, jurisdiction over gas and oil it will have no authority in that area at all. The only way we could control the situation would be if we owned the oil or gas. Even if we owned the oil or gas the federal government, under the BNA act has complete authority over external affairs, over international trade, over inter-provincial trade, over gas and oil pipelines that go from one province to the other.

So these suggestions would have to be made to the Government of Canada. In addition, Mr. Speaker, if huge volumes of gas were discovered off Labrador and the market in Newfoundland and Labrador was limited - we could use whatever gas we could to develop industry here first - there would bound to be a tremendous volume of gas that could not be used here, and it would be silly to say that it could not be exported anywhere else and, therefore, the oil and gas fields could not be developed at all. I mean that would be a piece of stupidity.

So the han. gentleman's question, you ~ow, raises issues which would take very many years bef6re they would become pertinent here. Because even if gas is found off the coast of Labrador in commercial quantities I am advised that it would be at least ten to twelve years before the technology for developing and utilizing it can be perfected. MR. NEARY: Well the hon. the Premier says four to five years. 7087

May 7 • . 1976 Tape no. 2539 Page 2- mw MR. CROSBIE: Oil is different. If oil was discovered in commercial quantities off Labrador, I understand that within two to three to four years they could be producing oil, because oil could be taken from the producing wells by tanker. Gas, however, is a different matter. Gas can be liquified, but with gas you have to operate twelve months a year. With oil you could take it for six months and you shut the thing down for six months if the ice is bad and so on. MR.. SMALLWOOD: NdC! gas? MR.

CROSBIE: Well, not gas, because gas - the installations that take out the gas and so on apparently give a lot more problems, and the technology for that is going to be a lot more complicated. At least that is what I am advised anyway. MR. SPEAKER: There is only time for one additional question. The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, this question to the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

The announcement that he just made that the signs on the Trans Canada highroad will be changed from keep right except to pass or slow draffic keep right, that will be changed over as the new yellow lines are painted on. Does the minister intend to have his department educate the general public of Newfoundland to this change, which is going to happen so quickly? Mr. Speaker, there is a big difference. Right now"hhe motoring public have accepted those signs, ''slow traffic keep right." And there is a lot of difference, and they do not bother to read them any more because they know what it is.

Will there be an effort made to advise the public that from now on the traffic regulation is keep right eacept to pass? }fit. S~R: !he hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Again, Mr.Speaker, we will be running ads and as much publicity as possible to the changing of the signs. We intend to commence the changing of the signs around the 20th of May, and have them completed in a week or '708S

May 7. 1976 Tp.pe no . 2539 Page 3 ~b:. . Morgan. the .ma:itiJIIum ·two week period, all 'Ch$JJ.ged at the 01Ul tiJIIe, Between now and t.hen we will be running ads and as much as possible through the media to give the people the information in regard to the chang~g of these signs. ORDERS OF THE ~.Y: On motion that the House reJJolve itsel .f into Conmdttee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 708!)

Hay 7, 1'1 71> . 'fape 2541'1 lUI - 1 " r <lc.r, nleas e! The motion hoe fo re the ous{'. is tha t I'U''head 101- ll l ht- rertuce c by the amount of $14 ,7 83 . The ~on . 'inistet of ~rovincial Affairs and Envir onment. Ref ore ~ ~e anj ourned last night I Ha!': trying to say a f~'W wor<ls - ''R. SHALLPOOD: We are going to have a vot.e. ~m. ~·J.TRJ'HY: Oh, a vote? Oh, I see. ~'R. ROBERTS: No, no, no. (), no~ no. HR. ~mRPHY: What is on the go here boys? S'11W !10~ . . IE1JIFRS: Oh , oh ! I sur.pcsted that last night and - 'lL SNAJ.Ll</00!): The re is agreement that we vote. ~m . NURT'P.Y: Is there? MR.

S~LWOOD: There is hearty agreemeftt, 'IR.· !1PRI'HY: Yes, very good, I will only be two minutes. MR. ROBEllTS: I am not in agreement, Mr. Chairman. MP. • ~10RGAN': Fe will be taking a long time to vote. ·}ffi. WELLS: There was an agreement. MR. ROBERTS: No, there was not. HR. 1VELLS: There was not? MR. ~'URPHY: Rut, Mr. Chaiman, r do not want to wute any space, we only have seventy-five hours to do these esti:roates and I would like t.o get through lnth them. Please do not hang the House up. Nr. Chairman, I did rise last evening, I was on my feet for seventeen minutes and I spoke for one and a half.

The rest was taken with points of order. But I did sit down tmen the point of order was raised, of cours~. But there was seventeen minutes ~.rast;ed out of the seventy-five hours last nir,ht. fly only purpose to stand up, Sir, is to support the a,ctions taken hy the Minist .er of Health. I think he has done an excellent job in this, and to allay, if I can, a,gain the insinuations made by the Leader of the 7090

Hay 7, 197(i. l!R. }IURPilY: Tape 2540 RH - 2 Opposition as to the competency of the Minister of Public Health. Now it is nothing new to this Rouse, Sir, to have the Lead.er of the Opposition stand up and nssassinate 1 or try to, any minister of this Crown. 1 am doing a history now - MR • S1"'l'iONS : HR. ~IURP!TY: lffi.. SU!HONS: !In. Cl!Alll.'IAN: heen raised. Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. 1 am doing the history now, Mr. Chairman, of the - ~!r. Chairman - Order, please! Order, please! A point of order has }ffi.. SINI10NS: Nr. Chairman, the minister a moment ago talked about the ~•aste of time last night.

Well probably so. But he is the instigator of that waste as he is right now again. He has just said now, Mr. Chairman, no ifs, ands and huts or ~eneralities, he said that the Leader of the Opposition '1ad stood up and trien to assassinate. Now, Mr. Chairman, apart fro!'l the fact that that ridiculous statement could only come from that minister, it is quite unparliamentary, quite unparliamentary for him - ancl he knows that, Hr. Chairman - to attribute that kind of motive to any 1'1ember of this House. It is even too raw for that minister, ~!r. Chairman. ur.. ~'llRT'l!Y : !ffi.

SIHHONS: r.et back and teach kindergarten where you came from. If he does not want us to waste a whole morning as he thinks He riid last eveninp.; hy inter;ections ,~{ell he can stay within the rules. I ~mnt to hear what he has to sav about the minister. So few have said anythinr. good ahout the minister. I am anxious to hear what the minister h11.s done. J have not heard in this committee yet and I am prepared to sit here and listen. ~m. NURPHY: }<P.. SH1HONS: Is the rentleman making a speech now, Sir? Rut I am not prepared, Nr. Chairman, to sit here and have him flaunt the rules in the name of dignity.

I'R • 11URP!1Y : · ~~-. CHA IR1~L\N: As I was - A point of order has been raised. I think that the bon. m:tnister ol,viously used the phrase very metaphorically. I do not see where it '·Iou] d he in the documents availah le to us ,strictly unparliamentary. Rut 7091

''ov 7, 1t'17C.. Tape 2540 RH - 3 1•r 1"1111 fr.ll.l'"' : T think that t he hon. minister may wish to rephrase the remar~ so as to ~i vP. a cl~arer idea of his meaning. The hon. miniSter . ~ ~~ . l!ITRPI!Y: Thank you, ttr. Chairman. I did not mean that the Leader of t he Opposition had put a contract out for the bon. ~.inister of nealth. llut T did say , Si_r, by his remarl•,s insinuatin~ the incompetency, the utl:l"r di.sregard for human sufferin y. and utter callouaneaa with regard tn rlenlinR with ot~er human beings .

I think it was entirely unjustified, I'P.rhnp!; not justifi.ed but tvpical of the Leader of the Oppositi on. t nn roow, Sir, at t he present t ime doing a lit tle history of remar ks pass ed l>y that same J-on. ~l"ntleman tdth reference to all the ministers of this House. Tt ~r1.11 rn.'lke VP.TV interestinr. rfl arlin~ when T p.et it all done. As fa r as t he T.ea<ler of t he Opposition's att i tu!le is concerned, Sir, it remin ds me of the storv 1 heard yesterday where the ladv in grea t worry ohoned the doctor and told the doctor that her young son had swallowed a twenty -two bull et .

The iloc tor of course was qui te reassurin g and said, "Do not worry. ~o not do anyt~in~. I will be there as soon as I can. But for heavens sake cto not point him at nnyhody . " I think it ia t he fact that the J,ende r of the Cpposi tion, if he points at someone at all prepare, prepare fo r :tnnihila t ion political or in any other way . 70 92

May 7, 1976 Tape no. 2541 Page 1 - mw Mr. Murphy. Mr. Chairman, with reference to all the statements where there has been nothing done, I have two files here just on Bale Verte alone, from my Department of Environment, not talking about Health, and I did look back as far as I could for some case history of what is happening with regard to asbestosis or any other disease in the area of Baie Verte, The first correspondence I come across is dated March 14, 1974. Now I do not know how far back the previous government went with making sure that another St.

Lawrence would not occur in Bale Verte, and this letter is a aemo from Mr. Downey, Assistant Deputy Minister of Environment to the then minister, Mr. Gordon Dawe. And it says; "Following publication of Time Magazine January 28, 1974, many people concerned with the abbestos mines at Baie Verte became very uneasy. Their medical

section daalt in some detail with the closure of an asbestos product plant, and it was pushed out of Pennsylvania and faced severe expenditure to meet United States environmental costs. This

article created a major stir in the Baie Verte area." Now this was January 28, 1974. I do not know how long that mine is there. It must be ten or twelv~ years. I am not quite sure on it. But this is only t974. "And the unions particularly were somewhat alarmed and made statements in public and to the press requesting action and assurance that they, too, did not have serious asbestos dust to contend with." That was the first indication that I have in the files of the Environment Department with reference to this query about the dust menace in the asbestos mine. And we immediately dispatched an inspector to Advocate Mines on February 14. This

article appeared on January 28. Some two weeks afterwards, the Department of Environment dispatched one of the inspectors down to Bale Verte to talk with people and sound them out on just what the feelings were with regard to the mine. And there is a paragraph here; "Since then over a dozen copies of a standard letter from individuals to Mr. Bill Rompkey 7093

Hay 7, 1976 Tape no. 2541 Page 2- mw Mr. Murphy. I think he is the M.P. for that district - (copy Bill Rowe, M.H.A.) - Uow I think Bill Rowe had gone out before 1974. Am I right on that? He was the M.H.A. for thE· district. But this is in brackets. - has been received. And this deals with a letter from the very people in the area who had sent this to Rompkey in Ottawa, M.P., the Ron. Mr. Bill Rompkey and a copy to Bill Rowe who was the M.H.A. This was in this memo with reference to this. And our department at the time had held discussions with a Dr. Robert Ferguson, a biologist in Hontreal, Dr.

Clinton Edmunds, regional director of EPS, Halifax, and these gentlemen got together and had a look at the whole question and promised they would take some action on it. And I do not intend to go right into the whole question of what has been happening. But I want to repudiate without any doubt in the world, without any doubt in anybody's mind, and that is why I got a bit upset yesterday when I jumped up and demanded that the Leader of the Opposition was - 'I do nat know what expression to use, because I was so disgusted.

But for him to insinuate that a Minister of tha Crown - and he referred to the Minister of Health_this time- was so callous and this government was so callous that we had no worry at all about Baie Verte which is an absolute reversal of the true facts. Because we have done flUite extensive work in the area. There is a joint committee of Health, Mines and Energy, and Environment together with Manpower, that have been meeting regularly on all this.

And if anybody thinks that an answer or a cure can be found even by the great doctor who he referred to, who is coming in here shortly to look at the thing, it is going to be a long way out, because when we talk about curing these things, and we look at St. Lawrence, as the han. member for Grand Bank (Mr.Hickman) says - and here again I would like to congratulate the member for the area of Baie Verte (Mr. Rideout) because he has got a very, very serious problem on his hands and perhaps haif of it may not be the disease itself 7091

May 7. 1976 Tape no. 2541 Pagtt 3 - mw ~tr. Murphy. but it may be the anxiety and what lies underneath it, the fear. Perhaps fear is a greater cause at this time than the actual disease itself. We have looked at all areas of it, and my department particularly are not dealing within the mines. This is the occupational hazard. But let us not forget the hundreds and perhaps thousands of sm.all children and people outside the mine on the whole Baie Verte Peninsula who could be affected by this air. 7095 • ,... ...

Hay 7, 1976 IB-1 ''T' . 'Tnl'TlV: -- · - - --- And the mcm1, er mc>nt1c>nerl that and I IJaS amaze(! when my c'lepartl!'ent told me 11. few mc>nths Bf!"O that the tailings on this type of stuff ,,,as heing h;>nlef! frotr the ndne aT'.:! people IJere using j_t to put on their c'lr:hreways. Here was a ] ethal ~~eapon if you like and not one darn thing done 11hout it, .1ust spread on the !'line.

And the pit ~.mere the ta:IJ:tngs come out, it ts just brought out on a conveyor and dUIIIped. ~1e have recommended, "'r. r.hai1"11'an, that these tailings be wet down te keep the clust from p,ettinr. into the air because it is lethal as far as we know. As f11r as the "'ater :Is concerned, tests have been made to f!dnktnr; IJater. 1-Te have sent the samples to d:lfferent groups and from each group we p,ot a different reading of the content of this water. That 1s one of the problems we have.

If anybody th:lnks that because th:l.s c1octor "'hoever he may he will come tomorrow and next week there wtll he a cure, let hiT!' forget it. MR. RlDEOtrr: Nohody is suggesting that. 1 '1' • ''l'l'PRY : l•:e had tuber.cuJosis for htmdreds of years . T'o not let us get any impressions that this is going to be a cure all and c1o not Jet us talk that because the Minister of Health is not prepared to nonate ten nollars per head that he is going to destroy Baie Verte.

Let us not forget tJ,at, '1-'r. r.ha1rman, and let us not insinuate it by any means, that $5,000, $50,000, that $5 m:l]1:1on may be spent before w~ find an answer to this prohlem. I r,et back again to tuberculosis. ~\l e livec1 wHh it anc1 anyhoc1y who had people or friends who were put in that sanitarium in on Topsa:ll Poan years ap,o and they openec1 up the window to give them fresh air, "''hat thev needec'l, and most of them diecl of pneumonia because they froze to c'leath. Rut "'e got aureomycin.

There was the 1"1iracle drug for tuberculosis and tha.nks he to God - and I say this - that P-reat stric'les have been made and there are an awful lot of poeple connected w:l.th the nepartll'ent of Health in the party who must take sol'le crerH .t for the great steps forward. 709!i

'lay 7, 1976 Tape 2542 IB-2 ~'1'. ~f!TT>J'JW: But if anyhody thinks that this problem is going to be an """'sy one to solve, ]et us just not rush. It will be solved at some tiTTle in the future.

Rut I will just say this now, that as far as my department is concernecl, the nepartment of the Environment, and as f11r as the T'P.pa!"tment of Pealth is concerned, l>'ines and Enerp.;y and everybody P.lse in this government are as much aware of the problem and have as much concern for human ri~ht for Newfoundlanders as anybody sitting on the other side of the Rouse and let us not forget it. no not value a life in l!a·f.e Verte at ten dollars per head or $5,000 whatever the case might be.

Let nohody say or insinuate in any sinister way, to try to restroy a gentleman who has got more compassion in his system than h1'!.J f the crm•r on the other side pnt top:ether and I refer to the han. l'inister of "flealth, a gentleman who came up the hard way. Re worked for hh; livelihood, sJ aved Uke a great many of us. He was not born t,•:fth a silver spoon in his mouth I w:lll guarantee you that. He came to tl1is House here-hecause the people sent him here hecause they felt he tvas the type of person v1ho should be in this han. House. I have known the han. !'f"ntlel'tan :fn politics since 1966.

To me he is an out!ltand:lnp r:entleman and I wUl not sit in my seat whether I am out of order or not to hear him insulted and castip.;ated hy someone who llas not p;ot as much worth in his siX foot frame as the hon. gentleman h1'!.s in one of his fingernails. I say that and. the gentleman who said it, he can grin now wi.th that leer he has on his face but it is time for the rentlem<~n to realize that he has got to grow up. li/e all grow up anr h1'!.ve compassion for each other.

C~d knows it is hard enough to survi.ve in this tvorltl without having someone across the l'ouse try to de.stroy you with a few words, }'r. Chairman. That is ••hy T get so worked up when I hear these castigations, I have been listeninp; to it for a great many years, Sir, when the han. gentleman sat here leering over the shoulder of the member for 'l'willingate (Mr. Small~•ood) at us poor little people over there. 7097

~'Ay 7, 1976 Tnpe 2542 lB-3 ~·~~: Ar; T r;;~v, ''r. l"hniTll'tm, I f. eel w.l thin my hePrt aod Roul tlmt roohoc!v, 1-ut nohody , !>as mo1:e compassion for people t han the hon. "jni~<trr of r. ~nlth . T say that and if anybody ca1:es to say oth e ndae T td] 1 stanc! ur 11nv till'c and challenge him. fle 1 s a family man \.'i tb ~ lnrr.r fn~ily anc! fo1: anybody to say that he 1:efuses $5,000 ~e1:ha~s to ""crificP hull'..an lifC's in Baie Verte , ~~r. C.hninnan, I think it ill a cliss:rllce th~t such worc!s were ever utterec! in t his hon. P.ouse. I !"'IY that. A~ain, 7098

May 7, 1976 Tape No. 2543 NM - 1 ~m. mJRPIIY : Sir, I do not wish to delay the House, But I just sav that all government departments are very much concerned. Whether I am the member for Baie Verte or St. John's Centre, wherever it may be, I have as much interest tn Newfoundlanders, in all people as anybody else in this lion. House, Sir • And I just urge in the name of charity if nothing else, that the hon. Leader of the Opposition for God's sake would grow up and get some sense and try not by insinuation to make a laughing stock- I can go right through it.

I look at every member in this House where down through the years he stood on his feet there, Sir - MR. NEARY: His old school buddy heard from hi• the other night on television. MR. MURPHY: - and slurred and insulted everybody in this hon. House; He should thank nod every minute of the day, Sir. MR. ROWF.: A point of order, MR. MURPHY: He should thank God every minute of the day. - MR . ROBERTS: Do not take him so seriously. fo!R. MURPHY: - that he grew up where l:ie did not have to worry like some of us. ~R. CHAIRMAN: A point of order. MR.

ROWE: Sir, I just sat here for the past several minutes and listened to the language of the hon. member for St. John's Centre and I draw the Chairman's attention to •ection 154 (3~ on page 130 of Beauchesne. "The imputation of bad motives, or motives different from those acknowledged, misrepresenting the language of another, or accusing him, in his turn, of misrepresentation, charging him with falsehood or deceit: or contemp~uous or insulting language of any kind; all these are unparliamentary and call for prompt interference," presumably from the Chair. '1R. M1TRPHY : Tell us something.

Tell us what it is all about. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. ROWF.: Mr. Chairman, am I going to be heard or what when I am making a point of order? Sir, the hon. member for St. John's Centre has used langauge in the last ten or fifteen minutes that iG9D

May 7, 1976 Tape No. 2543 XR. ROWF.: comes under the category of that subsection (3) of

section 154, and I would like to bring the Chairman's attention to this and ask that the member not continue on with this type of insulting language. MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Chairman, to that point of order. Your Honour I would submit that my han. friend who has suddenly NM- 2 become an expert on Beauchesne did not state what the point of order was. Re did not state the language, And if the bon. member is going to make a point of order, Sir 0 he has to quote the words that the bon. gentleman said that were offenaive or unparliamentary.

All the bon. member did was to read from Beauchesne and did not state any of the words that are uncomplimentary that are insulting or unparliamentary and I would submit, Sir, that it is not a point of order. 'IIIR. W. CARTER: Mr, Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: To that point of order. I would like - last nip,ht we saw the bon. member spend twenty minutes I think it was debating what turned out to be not a point of order. Now they talk ahout the time left for the estimates, I think there is nine hours left now.

I want to get the Department of Fisheries estimates before the Committee. I am anxious to get them before the Committee. MR. NF.ARY: Public Works and - MR. W. CARTF.R: But if bon. members -opposite do not co-operate or insist on wasting.the H6use tfme, Mr. Chairman, by raising useless points of order, well then I am going to be denied the chance to bring my estimates before the Rouse and the Honse will be denied the chance to discuss my estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! When a point of order has been raised of course comments certainly can be made by hon. members.

But the rules do state, and I can only go by the rules, that the comments should he directed to the point of order specifically and not to any 7100

May 7, 1976 'ra1>e No. 2543 NM- 3 othe1: topics even though they might have an indirect relationship to it. The comments should be specific and directly to the point of order . If there are no further comments I have con~ulted the saction that wa.-> read hy the hon. member for Trinity - .Bay de Verde · (!11:. Fo:we) and my

interpretation of the first phrase i~; that untruths, falsehoods , deliberate falsehoods may not he imputed to an hon . member. I do not think the hon. minister did do such

an act. The second phrase concerns itself :with insulting l anguage. I thi,.nk the hon. minister stated his opinion as to what the hon. r.eader of the Oppositio n said on a number of occasions hut 1 do rot think that by statin~ thos e facts that he undertook to insilt the hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~ly interepretation would be that he made a statement as to his understanding of the hon . Leader of the Opposition ' s remarks in the past. So l would not consider that a point 6r order is befor.e the Chair. M.R. l"lJRPHY: Thank you Mr. Chainnan . I am going to clue up now anyhow because I get so carried aYay 7101 .•· ....

May 7, 1976 Tape 2544 PK- 1 ~t:_._M~r~ when I see what is happening in this hon. House. We can debate any subject, Sir. But I grew up among a lot of young people and I tried to tell them that if there is one thing you have to do in the 1mrld have respect or try to have respect for the other fellow whether it is in sport or anything else. And when I see here repeated last night or yesterday, what I have seen of this hon. House so often, look, Sir, I really grieve. And as the hon. member for Twillingate(Mr.

Smallwood) uses the phrase "Wherefore and whither tending 1 " I wonder in God's name where we are going to end up. This Chamber is supposed to be two sword lengths or something across the House here. Perhaps we might get to that. Perhaps we would be more honourable, Sir, if we did engage in some kind of physical combat rather than use the tongue - AN RON. MEMBER: That might happen too by the way. MR. MURPHY: ~!R. CHAIRMAN: Yes. I can appreciate it reelly. Order, please! Please would you allow me?

Before further proceedings I am sure the hon. members would wish to grelt eleven students from Grades VIII and IX _from Bishop Abraham Junior High in St. John's, who are in the public gallery with their teacher Mr. James Butters, and also ten students from Grades VIII and IX at the Lake Melville High in North West River with their teacher Mrs. June Blakie. And I understand that the students from Labrador are here in St. John's on an exchange visit. We certainly greet them. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HO N. E. ROBERTS: Thank you, Sir. Mr.

Chairman , let me say at the outset that I do not intend to reply to the remarks made by the gentleman from St. John's Centre, the Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment~ I think as he himself said he got somewhat carried away, and I will let the matter rest at that. I could deal with eveyything he said, in the same way as he dealt with the things I said, I would hope with a little less passion and a little more 710~

May 7, 1976 Tape 2544 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: claritY, but I do not intend to play the sort of game he wants to play. What I said in the Committee yesterday and what I say again today is that the Minister of - I have said nothing about the Minister of Health personally, the only people who feel that is the hon. gentleman opposite, and that is just a political tactic to try to divert and to skirmish and everything else. What I am speaking about is the minister's conduct of his office.

And I think the minister's conduct of his office and the respect which I mentioned has not been what it ought to have been and what it should have been. I have listened to what he said in the Committee last evening, and I assume he will have a few more words to aay. I would certainly hope so. And I am far from satisfied with the way in which he has responded to this question. Whether or not the motion is silly is for hon. members to decide. The gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) feels it is silly. Well that is his privilege. He has been around this House for a long time.

He has done some things that people accept, and he has done some things that people do not accept. I will find it if he is to vote against the motion, presumably he will, I will find it somewhat amusing to see him and the gentlemen opposite in the same political hed, truly hath it been said that politics aoth :make strange bedfellows. It may just be a harbinger of the coming coalition that we hear so much about, that is going to come into effect. But, Mr. Chairman, I guess I just blew my invitation to lunch, did I?

The Minister of Fisheries will have to have another lunch to make up for the one I am not going to get. Mr. Chairman, let me deal with a point that the Minister of Fisheries raised. I will not say that he did not know better, I believe he felt he was within the --rules, but as Your Honour ruled he was out of order. The government would like to call the Fisheries estimates they tell us this morning, and they asked us whether we would agree not to say very much more on Health. Well I can say two or three things on that. First of all, Sir, we would like to see the Fisheries estimates called. Indeed my friend 7103

~~:ty 7. 1 C) 76. VP.. 110lll\RTS: TaT'e 2545 RH - 1 ""rl c-nll e>Rgue, the r,ent1 e>man from Burin-Placentia \-lest (l'r. Cann1nF,) acting in onr !,,_,,,, f or flT'PalrinP; for us as a grouT' has put dmro. a motion to allow rlrhate on tl1e fisheries estimates. 1-'e would very much lil:e them to be "allo<l. Tlut ue nrc not r,oing to give up $1'l7 million l·rorth of expenditure- ! nr. sorry~ "~ }11'1\llV: Has tin;> :f. t. ''R. ROBERTS: Hell I am 1uat responding to what the Minister of Fisheries s;drl. I do not t~Jinlr that is a ;1aste of time. There is a rule ar.ainst nrrc11 es!l rP.peti.tion a.nd I - MR.

NEARY: How about your colleague? liT' • f:OllF.RTS : No, l'ly colleague has heen acting properly. I must say I vr>ry much appreciate the ·~ay he has heen acting ~ecause in view of the, you l:now, the ;1ell 1:nown Tory tactic of trying to get me which is underlying a] 1 the deb ate, I '"ou] d like to have somebody stani:l up once in a lvhile and v!'ntnre a word or two in my behalf. But the point I am making, Mr.

Chairman, ts that we do want the fisheries estimates to come off, very anxious to, ancl parti.cuJ arly in light of the news that came yesterday that the government o• f:anacla have sRir'l, "Look, if you guys made a mess of the 6ear lleplacement Pro~ranune as you i!id hecause it is a provincial administration we are not roi nr, in ""Y l-my to p~y t-h11t." So now we are stucl< with the whole shot. T rw1 ~orrv? MR. NEARY: 1\r-. ROBFl'.T S : When did that come in? It has been in. The minister has been a~1ay. It has been on the> radios , in the newspapers. I am sorry? MR. DOODY: "'R. RO!Il'RTS: rm . 'R.OTII'R'rs: Who?

Quoting the hon. Mr. Le~lanc. ()h, oh! !-.'ell I ~.o not lcnow ;,hat corresponclence the minister has had. 'lr. Lpl'.l '"'C h11s said not1,:fn!' to me. I am just relayinp, what I have heard on t'le radios. I am not sa.ying they are correct or :Incorrect. 7101

t!a y 7, 1976 . Tape. ?545 RH- 2 lffi. ROJ\1\RTS : I am just rslayin~ what I have heard. I do not know if hon. gentlemen opnoslte, "r. Chairman, listen to the radio in the mornings. I have a 1 HtlP. schedule. You can hear VOO< at quarter to ei~ht and you can hear CJON at eir.ht o'clock and at eight thirty you p,et the CRC National follmved by a CJ\C local. It is a good way to get all three of the major radio stat:f .ons. MR. DOODY: That would be your peanut series. m: . CTTA IRHA '1 : Order, please! Order, please! The motion before the Jlouse, of course, debates the hon. ~Tinister of Health's salary.

So I >vouJd .1ust point out to hon. members that this is the topic under dchate. And lYhereas inci.dental remarks can he rnade concerning other snh1ects, these should he purely incidental and not be gone "into in any r,rP.at cletaiJ. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HR. ROl\F.RTS: Thank you, l!r. Chairman. HR. NEARY: I woultl like to rise on a point of privilege, Sir. ~rn. CJIAIPJfAN: A point of privilege has been raised. .,.i'R. 'lFARY: A point of privilege. I would lilre to set the record stra1i>;ht, Sir.

Hhen the r.overnment Rouse Leader approached me about the llealth estimates he rlid not ask me to restrict my remarks in connection \vith the estimates. He l'lerely asked me if I lYould be very much longer on the Health estimates. There is a big difference, Sir, in what the Leader of the Opposition 1ust stated. I presume he put the same question to the Leader of t 11e Liberal Reform Party and the Leader of the old-line Liberal Party. It was not to try to close off the discussion. It was merely, the lvay it was put to me, "Pill you be very much longer on the Health estimates?" There is a big difference, !-1r.

Speaker. I think the Leader has done the C:overnment House I.eader an injustice in the way that :ft "as put to members. Orner, 11lease! 7105

Jfav 7, 1<17(,. Tape 2545 RH - 3 ''\. ROlll'RTS : T11e>re is no point of privilege there. You know, we are '" '" i.n g ;~ con s t:mt - Order, please! If the hon. the Leader of the Opposition "oul.d pernit mer I v ould take it that this was an explanatory remar k rather t lum, s t rictl y spea k ing, a point of privilege. TI1e hon. Leader of the Opposition. IIR. ROBERTS: Thank you, }ir. Chairman. I have made no reference to anything which was said to or by the gentleman from LaPoile(Mr.

Neary)• I am .1ust merely saying ~•hat I said. l.;)'ell if we ~~ant to talk about hcing lonp, on it, the hon. gentleman from LaPoile has used up more timE' in this committee, I l~ould think, as one member, and he is only one member - he may he an independent member but he is one member - certainly used up more time than the fifteen men and women who sit in our grouo here and the four gentlemen - ".R. NEARY: ~ m . R.ORF.RT S : That does not spealc very well for you. It certainly does, Sir. It shows that quality is not equated with quantity. SOME !!ON • HEI'tBERS : Hear, hear! HR.

ROBERTS: Hy friend and colleague from Baie Verte::-~Jhite Bay(Mr. Rideout) last night said a few things that every member in the Rouse thought wa~ well sa:i.d. I do not want to get into that. lolhen I am after elephants, r:r. Chairman, when I am after elephants I do not ~•ant to be diverted l>y rahbits. '!m~. 1-Tr. Chairman, let me come back to the point under discussion.

T >'ant to tal1 ·. about the !'isheries estimates and I will gladly agree to flit 11ny rmy time, at any hour to talk about them.Because I think if this House adjourns ~d.thout discussing the Fisheries estimates it will have been one of the p,reatest collapses of our duty to the people. But, Sir, this r:ommi ttee has met for forty or fi.fty or sixty hours, whatever we have been now. It is the government's decision not to have called Fisheries unt:! .l here now petting near the eleventh hour, metaphorically speaking. 7105

Hay 7, l 976. Tape ?.545 '!R. POBERTS: That is the govern.;ent's c1ecision. They can say that the Hinister of Mines and Tlner!':Y IJas away and so he •,;as. But the "1-"inister of Fisheries has been faithful in his attendance here. It is no reason not to call them simp] y because the ~!inis ter of Mines and Energy happened to be away. He has hPen in Ottava. 7107

"'ay 7, 1Q7fi Tape No. 2546 NM- 1 rm. ROBERTS: I know he has been on government business, Sir, I do not doubt that but only one day was he there on business "h "lc11 could not have been deferred. Other days, meetings and things, these could have been scheduled next week. The House of Assemhly and the people of this Province do not dance to the convenience of any hon. minister. And so let it not he heard to be said that because we are going to take - I may 'gell be another half an hour or so on some points I want to raise in connection with the minister's conduct of his job.

Let as not hear the Minister of Fisheries say, "Oh well we ar~ against discussing the Fisheries estimates." If "the Fisheries estimates are not discussed at length, Sir, it is the fault simply and solely of the government of this Province, simply and solely. They could have called them at any time, Sir. We did not have to go into Social Services or Education before we went into Fisheties. Of course not. Mn. SMALLWOOD: And they can accept the han. member's motion. MR. ROBERTS: They most certainly can. As the gentleman from Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) says, they can accept the motion put by my friend and colleague the ~entleman from Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Canning) which would open up that iniquitous seventy-five hour rule only in respect of the Fisheries estimates. But we will see. We will see Sir, whether the government ate willing to use their majority in the House for that pnrpose. We will see. AN HON. MEMBER: He might disappoint you on that. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, nothing would give me more pleasawe than to have an opportunity to discuss the scandals down there, the bad administration, the - well I am out of order hecause Your Honour has already ruled I cannot get into that. Let me come back to the Minister of Health, Sir, and let me - ~ffi . NF.ARY: The Summer GAmes scandal too, do not forgetthat. MR. ROBERTS: Well fine but we cannot discuss that under Fisheries unfortunately. I have found a way to talk about the Scrivener scandal on Health and I think that is something anyway, 7103

May 7, 1976 Tape No. 2346 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: I welcome the hon. gentleman's - MR. ROBERTS: Well the hon. gentleman welcomes me. I mean he was up Htst night talking about asbestosis and how he was the first man ever to raise it, you know all I would say, Sir, is he should have a look at the Hansards. And he and I were then together in a parliamentary group. We have had a schism in the political sense. He now sits there and I sit here. I hope there is no personal schism.

There is certainly none on my part, Sir, and I am sure none on the hon. gentleman's part but all I will say is that the asbestosis thing has been a hobbyhorse with me for many years because I think it is a very real problem, a very real problem:·and T am profoundly dissatisfied with the way in which the minister has approached i~. And nothing said by his friend and colleague the gentleman from St. John's Centre (Mr. Murphy) who you know has an opposition mentality. He was too long over here. He lost his breadth of vision. MR. t1URPHY: C&rry on now. MR. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman says carry on.

He got up and devoted fifteen minutes - MR. MURPHY: Try to be decent, for God's sake. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, he gets up and he spends fifteen minutes, gets up fifteen minutes, Mr. Chairman, calling me everything he can think of within the parliamentary lexicon and then when I merely make the reference that the hon. gentleman in my opinion has an opposition mentality .• he was too long in the trenches, too long, taking the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and now that he is in government he is not able to deal with them, not able to respond in a positive way as a minister.

He has got a negative approach to everything. I think he was too long in opposition. It can happen to men and it happened to the hon. gentleman and I say that and I go on to say that I used to admire him in Opposition. It was not easy to be in Opposition with three men, the gentleman from St. John's East Extern.(Mr. Hickey), the gentleman from 710 !)

>.fay 7, 1976 Tape No. 2346 NM- 3 MR. ROBERTS: St. John's East (Mr. Ottenheimer) as he then was, he now represents another seat in this House, and the gentleman from St. John's Centre (Mr. Murphy) constituted the entire opposition after the 1966 election and it was not easy and I admire the way they "7ent at it. But you know I do not want to get into a row with the gentleman from St. John's Centre. That is a waste of time and not very helpful to anybody. I do not think the Minister of Health, Mr. Chairman, has responded in any meaningful way to our points about asbestosis.

We did not say that he was trying to polson people in Baie Verte. That is what the Tories say we said, trying to twist and to distort and to try to wiggle out from under. What we said, the gentleman from Baie Verte -White Bay (Mr. Rideout) and myself, what we said is that the Minister of Health has done nothing to discharge his responsibility. We have here an admitted, problem, a very serious problem. The gentleman from Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood) agrees on it. The gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) agrees on it. We agree on it. We all agree on that. But the Minister of Health, Sir, has done nothing about it.

We all acknowledge that jt is essential that we have an independent - MR. SMALUIOOD: That is hardly so. MR. ROBERTS: It certainly is so. We have acknowledged and all agree that we need an t.partial and an independent study. MR. RIDEOUT: MR. ROBERTS: MR. RIDEOUT: "'R. ROBERTS : At once. At once. Immediately. Immediately, precisely. We have asked for it in this Committee time and time again in y~ars gone by.

I read last year in Committee a letter I had had from Dr, S~llikof and I hoped that would touch off an enquiry because that letter advanced certain opinions and the opinions were to the effect that there was a very real 'potential hazard and it should be looked at and the government ignored that. Then we had Mr. Leo Barry who was at that time, it was just after the 71~0

May 7, 1976 Tape No. 2346 NM - 4 MR. ROBER!S: election, still a Minister of the Crown. He had not resigned his office as Minister of Mines and Energy. He had been defeated in his constituency. He had not .been returned as a member. He had been decisively rejected by his coastituents but he had - you know he was cleaning off his desk and he made a commitment then on a W 5 programme and I read that transcript. MR. CANNING: Was he still making promises after that? MR. ROBERTS: My friend from Burin- Placentia West (Mr. Canning) asked if he was still making promise•.

Yes,he was still making promises after ~e was out of office. MR. DOODY: Was the programme taped? MR. ROBERTS: No, I think the programme was done live. MR. CANNING: I do not believe it. He belongs to Placentia Bay too. MR. ROBERTS: Miss Gosse, or Ms. Gosse, I am not sure of her marital status, said that it was you know, this comes to you live. It was a Sunday night from Toronto and the election had been the week before, three or four or five days before, So we had that commitment and that has not been hnnoured and now we get the situation where an independent expert meets the two necessary tests.

He is independent, and he is an expert. And the minister gets up and attempts to pour scorn on Dr. Sellikof that he is only a researcher. I am sorry I heard the minister's speech, And the strong opinion that I got from what the minister said was that he was scorning, pouring scorn, heaping scorn upon the - MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I cannot permit this to continue. What I said last night 1 and the record will show,is I did make the statement that Dr.

Sellikof is a researcher and he was coming to Baie Verte in a research capacity, but I also qualified that and said, "I suppose now I will be accused dif saying that he has got no interest in the people in Baie Verte." I said, "I know he has an interest in the people in Baie Verte and everywhere else." The Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Chairman, should withdraw that statement because that is not true, 7111

:'lay 7, 197fi Tape No. 2346 NM - 5 l'fR. ROBERTS: }lr. Chairman, to that point of order, Sir, there no point of order. The very best that the han. gentleman can claim for his position is that it is a difference of oninion. I am r,ivin~ my

interpretation of what I heard him sav here in this Committee. I have not misquoted him. I have not accused him of anything improper within the parliamentary sense and all he is doing, Sir, is abusing the points of order procedure to try to enter into the debate. Well, Sir, I say that he should be told that when his turn comes he may debate it, until then he should not debate it and he should desist from raising specious points of order, Sir. MR. ROWE: I said the same thing last night. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order, please: Han. members on a ~onsiderable number of occasions arise on what they consider to be points of order which the Chair ultimately rules to be explanatory points. I would think that this falls into that category and I would ask the hon. Leader of the Opposition if he would continue his remarks. MR. ROBF:RTS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The point I am making is that the Minister of Health attempted, I am not saying deliberately, I do not know whether he knew what he was doing or not, I can only judge from the words that I heard spoken. The Minister of Health attempted to portray Dr.

Sellikof as being a - the minister did not say, "Oh well we are against people," or anything,or Dr. S~llikof is not interested in people. He would have it appear that Dr. Sell1kof's only motivation for coming here was that we had an interesting little research problem down here. We had an asbestos mine that has been going for ten or twelve years and boy that is something we have not looked at before. Well I think th at is a disservice to Dr. S~llikof and to the Mount Sinai School of ~edicine. The minister said that the rich and wealthy school as if somehow they did not need research assistance.

Sir, where does the minister think places get research funds. Why did the 7112

'fay 7, 1976 Tape No. 2346 NM- 6 MR. ROBERTS: United Steelworkers have to retain Dr, Selliknf to make the investigation into the Tetford Mines, the asbestos mines in Quebeccand I am not sure if the United Steelwork~rs, no the CNTU, the National Trade Union Confederation, the French Language Union Federation retained him. MR. NEARY: This is the same union down in St. Lawrence, MR.ROBERTS: My friend from LaPoile, this is the union that represents the workers at the fluorspar mines in St. Lawrence. And you know unless they get research funds they are not going to be able to operate.

They have not come to the goverument on bended knee. No. They have said they will not accept help from the company or from the union and that is right and proper. My friend from B*ie Verte - White B*Y (Mr. Rideout) dealt with that point and dealt with it admirably. So I say to the minister that I am going to vote for this motion not that I feel it will carry and indeed I do not particularly want to deprive the minister of his salary. But it is the only way I can express my lack of confidence, my contempt for the way in which he has approached this question. All he has to do, Sir is stand and say if Dr.

Sellikof and his crowd need money, if they can show a need we will entertain a request from them for a grant. And let him not hide behind anything else. No. MR.. SMALLWOOD: Would the hon. member agree that that is ex~ctly what the government are almost certainly doing even if they do not say openly and publicly that they will7 MR. ROBERTS: No, ~r. Chairman, I would not agree with the hon. gentleman. I would remind him a coalition has not yet come. He does not need to speak for the goverament. The government have not yet said that. That may well be what they do.

But all I want is the minister to say it and if the minister 7113

May 7, 1976 Tape no. 2547 Page 1 - mw Mr. Roberts. would say that. Mr. Chairman, if the minister would give us that undertaking that if Dr. Sellikof and his crowd, his fourteen or fifteen doctors and technicians will come and say, "Could you give us $5,000 to help defray the hotel expenses while we are here and a car or two to travel around in?" then I would ask leave to withdraw the motion. If that were granted well and good. If not I would be prepared to vote against my own motion. I have that right. I would ask my colleagues to vote against it. I put the motion down because I believe these men, Dr.

Sellikof and his associates, deserve some assistance. I think it is proper the government give them that help. And it was only after the minister rejected the request which had been made by my colleague, with Dr. Sellikof's knowledge, not in Dr. Sellikof's behalf, with Dr. Sellikof's knowledge, and as I explained it to the Committee, we volunteered. We said, "Doctlor we will try to help. We will try to get some money." It was only after that that we raised the matter here.

If the minister will make that commitment now here in the Committee I will ask leave to withdraw the motion and if it is not granted, if we do not get unanimous consent for it, I will vote against my own motion. I will be happy to do it. I have no quarrel with the minister as an individual. I have every quarrel with the way in which he has handled this question. I think it has been callous, cold, heartless, and well beneath what a minister should be doing. The gentleman from St. John's Centre spoke of the Minister of Health's compassion. I do not argue with that.

All I say is, here is an example to prove it, a few thousand dollars to show to the men who work in Baie Verte and to the people of this Province, a few thousand dollars, $5,000. It would not even cover the travelling expenses of some of these ministers. We have ministers over here, Mr. Chairman - (We do not ask. As an opposition we have taken the decision not to request ministerial travel allowances, because we are not so sure that that is really what the House should be doing. It is picayune. It is petty stuf~ - but we have ministers over here, Mr. Chairman, who spend $5,000 or $10,000

May 7, 1976 Tape no. 2547 Page 2- mw Mr. Roberts. a year just travelling, just travelling hither and there, What did the European jaunt cost? I bet it cost $10,000 or $15,000. A first-class air fareover, first-class air fare back, that is $1,000, and there were five or ten ministers - AN HON. MEMBER: Five ministers. MR. ROBERTS: Five ministers, was it. - and a handful of officials who went. We are not asking a lot of money. All we are asking is the government show a little concern, put a little money to support their words. We have had it from the lips out.

Now let us reach into the government's pocket and put a few dollars on the table. That is all we are talking about. Mr. Chairman, I have just been given a cutting from the Globe and Mail , the Toronto Globe, for Wednesday, April 28, which is very recently, an item written hnder the by-line or over the by-line whatever the correct phrase is, of Ms. Joan Hollobon, who is the Globe and Mail's 8~ience reporter as I understand it or medical reporter, a very skilled and knowledgeable journalist. I think it is worth reading. I will read it all if people wish.

If not I will read some of the, what I consider to be, relevant abstracts, because this is very much in point. The headline is, Lung Cancer Producej One Out Of Five Deaths Of Asbestos Workers. And I read this to show exactly how serious is this potential problem and that series of th.e problem shows why there must be an independent investigation and the need for an independent investigation shows why the government should pony up a few thousand dollars. "Lung cancer is the cause !if one in five deaths among asbestos workers according to Dr. Irving Sellikof of the Mount S!aai School of Medicine in New York.

New figures show that the death rate climbs as the' lapse of time from first exposure lengthens. One day's exposure may be enough to produce lung cancer - and now I am in trouble, a word I literally do not know how to pronounce- mesothelioma."

May 7, 1976 Tape no. 254 7 Page 3 - mw Mr. Roberts. Is there a doctor in the House? Your Honour is a medical man, when Your Honour is not presiding here. Does Your Honour know how to pronounce that word? Could Your Honour help me? MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member may not ask the Chair a question. With the agreement of the House I would be glad to answer the hon. gentleman. MR. ROBERTS: Well I literally do not know how to pronounce it. SOME RON~ MEMBERS: Agreed: MR. CHAIRMAN: Mesothelioma. MR. ROBERTS: Mesothelioma. I thank Your Honour, and if you want my MCP number, I will send the card in, Sir. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. ROBERTS: In any event, "One day's exposure may be enough to produce lung cancer and mesothelioma twenty or thirty years later," Dr. Sellikof said. "A recognized expert on the effects of asbestos on health, Dr. Sellikof 1 s report to the American College of Physicians in Philadelphia is reported in the current issue of the Medical Post, a journal published for Canadian doctors. " It goes on, but it does not really add very much. It expands upon what has already been said in the opening paragraph. Sir, that is the case quite simply.

All we want is an assurance from the minister that he will, if asked, and if a significant case is made. Dr. Sellikof told me on the phone on Friday night past when we spoke that all they are looking for is some help. All they would accept is some help with their expenses in Newfoundland. They will have to hire a couple of cars I guess. They are coming into Deer Lake, and going from Deer Lake up into Baie Verte by car, and they will be around for two or three weeks. They may have to come into St. John's. The university are helping them.

A number of the doctors there have - I do not know if assigned is the word - have agreed to work with them and to give them 711G

~~y 7, 1976 Mr. Roberts. Tape no. 2547 Page 4 - mw technical advice. They are going to be doing, not only tests on the asbestosis, they are going to be doing a complete physical on every man there. They are going to do the complete blood tests. It used to be SMA 12, but I gather they are now up to SMA 25 which is the type of blood fractionating machine they will be using, and so the men in that mine will get what amounts to a complete physical, and it may pick up things completely unrelated to asbestosis. There may be men there who have a diabetic condition.

Well that would be picked up or the other things that can be picked up from a regular physical. That in itself should be worth $10 a head to the government. Indeed if Dr. Sellikof were licenced to practise medicine in this Province, which he is not, but if he were, he could presumably seil the bill into Medicare for his general physcial assessment of each of these 500 men, and that would be - what is a general physical now, fourteen or fifteen dollars in the fee scale ? I forget what it is. But that in itself would probably amount to the money.

So all we are asking is the Minister of Health to be what we consider to be reasonable and to show the compassion which he is alleged to have, and which I am prepared to concede he has. Mr. Chairman, there are a number of other points I want to make with respect to the Health estimates, but if the minister wanted to deal with this asbestosis question I will yield to him, but, you know, I want to came back into the Committee. There may be other members. I would have to compete with them for Your Honour's eye and be recognized.

Bit, you know, I said some harsh things about the minister's conduct of office, and I make no apologies for that.I believe they were warranted. The minister obviously does not agree. I would not expect him to agree, and I am glad one or two of his colleagues rose to defend him. That is a good thing too. But I am deadly serious. }ffi. NEARY: Does the Leader of the Opposition know if there has been any great conflict between the minister and Dr. Sellikof. 7117

May 7, 2976 Tape no. 2547 Page 5 - mw MR. ROBERTS: Not to my knowdlege, but I mean I have not asked Dr. Sellikof nor have I - I am not privy to any. Dr. Sellikof got in touch with me, because I wrote to him - }1R. NEARY: I remember. MR. ROBERTS: - three or four years ago. I saw an

article in a magazine and knowing, and we raised it here in the Committee, we talked about it in caucus, and I wrote to him out of the blue, and I said, "Do we have a problem? Do we have a potential problem? " And he wrote back, and he said, "Yes, you very well may. You have an asbestos mine." And then we started raising it here in the Committee, and in the House and on debates, and my friend from Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout) has quite properly made it a major effort right from the day - MR. NEARY: Excuse me, but I would assume that if Dr.

Sellikof comes to Newfoundland that he will get in touch with the Minister of Health or somebody? MR. ROBERTS: I do not know. }fR, NEARY: As a matter of courtesy if nothing else. And then the whole thing could be probably thrashed out. MR. ROBERTS: I have no idea. I know he has been in touch with the minister's officials. HR. NEARY: I see. MR. ROBERTS: The minister told us that, and Dr. Sellikof has told me, and he has been in intimate association with the university. That would be one research outfit to another research outfit.

But I said, "Where are you getting your money?l' - when he first told me three or four weeks ago or a month ago whenever it was that he was coming. And he said, "Well, we have some funds. They are limited, but we have some research grants, and we could use them." "Well," I said, "what about the company?" And he said, "No, they are paying for X-ray plates, because they are general physicals as well, but that is all." ''Will it take any money?" And he said, ''Why?" I said, "What about the union?" He said, "No." It was for the same reasons.

And then I said, "What about the government?" He said, "Well, we have not asked them." 7118

May 6,1976 Tape no . 2547 Page 6 - mw Hr. "Roberts. "Well," I said, "I cannot speak for the government." HR. H. COlLINS: They have not asked . MR. ROBERTS: Well, that is true they have not asked. I am not disputing that . I said that last night, or yesterday afternoon. My friend from Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout) said it. Mit. HURY: So the Leader of the Opposition is suggesting now they voluntarily get involved. MR . ROBERTS. Yes, I think the government should come forward. Well let me go on. I went through th.e narrative yesterday or la~t evening, but I will go through it again. 711!l ... ...

l'ny 7, 1976 Tape 2548 IB-1 >~T'. 1'0ll"f':T'TS: T.Pt mP -" note T n,., im•t r;:lven- Dr. Sel]jkof to]cl my fr:lencl from l\aie ~·erte-Ph:lte 1\ay (Pr. T':lcleout) in a phone conversation that he himself r-ets no snlnry ont of this. I mean let that not be th'at we are looking fnr money to P"Y• you know, a man's salary, no. I saic!, "v!ell look nr. there i" no re11.son the p,over.n111ent should not kick in a few bucks. 1,1ould you take l'loney :If the government '~ere to make it available?" He said, "Yes.

Thev 11.re neutral, they are indepenc!ent." I said, "~-Tell I feel they should do it." Then I sa:fd, "Have you approached the government?". Jle sntr'l, "No". "WeJl," I sa:fd, "would you mincl if I did?". I said, "T 11m not the rovernl'lent", ancl T "t-rent throup,h a l:fttle const:l.tut1.onal lect11re. n>. Nl\1\l!Y: Yes T know. "T: hearcl all about 1.t. I'T'. T!01\EJITS : I in fact asked my fr:lencl to write and that is why he did ••r:fte as the mel'lher for the cl:l.strict ann as a l'lan who :l.s so interested :In :f_t. ~o a] J I want '1 s the min :I ster to give us an assurance. I w:l.ll then call nr.

Sellikof or the !T':fnister can anc! say, "Look if you would like to send in an application, if you would Hk.e soU'e help, send us a letter. Tel] us ~.<•hat you want it for, how much you want and, you know, ~-·e are preparecl to clo it if you can prove a case." I do not think that :Is unreasonable. That js essentially the request ~•h:lch the pentle!'lan fnr 1\n:l e ''erte-1·1hite Tl<tY (Mr. R:l clenut) tTlade :In the letter which I read to the romm'1ttee ye~terdav. You knov• -If the U':ln:lster p,ot up antl said, "Ye" ,.,,. ,,r-111 tln 1t..

Tell Sellikof to r;et :In touch with us", that would he the en<" of it. '"' 1.-'IHT'f': '1erv reasonable. _:'r. 1'01\F"'TS: T think it is el'linently reasonable. Nm.r, t'r. Chairman, the l'lin:fster has sl:fppecl out, I hope not for a cigarette. But :If the l'lini "ter v•ants - aPd 1 say that he cause it is such a terrihle health Menece - hut :! f thP. m:fnister •>~ants to deal "rith this asbestosis thing T rdl 1 rlacUy yielc1 to hitr and let hi111 because we can col!'e back. I have a nnmher of other points I want to d.eal with a.nd one or two of the!!' I think l'lre verv 1T11'1jrtr.

Tf the I"inister wants to speak I r.r:f]l yield to hiM, ~'r. rha1Tl'lan, and then let hil'l deal with. this asbestosis thtB.g and 7120

''ay 7, 1 <'!76 Tape 25411 IB-2 "" T'nJlf.l'T~: thr.n ro on fn'TT' tl1erC'. nut T rlo feel very stronp;ly about it, Sir, :me" that is ,.,hy "e 1T'>~c:1e the l'!ove ,.,e (lid. ~'Y friend from Ba:l e ~·erte­ Phite '!lay (l'r. T'i c1eout) fer.] s enually stronply and I think 1110st 111embers nf the rn!'11'11ittee rlo.

Tf the 111inister "~<'nu]d just tell us that the ~overn!T'ent are prepare(! to give the money, if a case can be made anc1 the case woul (l be for accol'!T!Iorlation and for travel and for expenses incurred within NevrfotmdJand, 1¥ithin th1.1' Province. 1' ost of the money ,.mulcl, I suppose, stay :In the Province in the hotel and in the car rent11J ~" or ,,rhne,rer :Is :f_nvoJvec1 like that. I 1¥ill ask leave then to •dthdraw my 1'10t:lon. Jf that 'l<•ould not be pr:onted - it would ta~·e unll.nil!1ous consent as I unc'lerstand the rule - then I would be prepared to vot.e ap:a:!nl't :It Hhen it comes to a vote.

Th11t is whatever the ro1T'!'1ittee deci~ec". llut vl 1 I want :1 s to S£'e that the r;overnll'(' .nt do soTI'ethinl! to l1el p th11t stuc1y. That :Is the sole and s:ln.p,le purpo,;e of what I am up to. So I Fill y:le],! to the !'1:1nister. I understand he '!<•ants to ,;peak. I 1vi J J then come hacl ' . T ~<nmt to talk then about the Health Sciences renter in Carbonear :md some other thinps. But let us take c:tre c:f the asbestosis 11111tter first, Hr. r.ha:lrman. ~' 1'. r.HAT""'AN: ''1?.

COLL TN~: 'P.ear, hear: The han. ~·:In :I ster of f!eal th. ~lnl·'• "r. r.hail"JT1an, I rlo not know if the Lea.der of the OpposH:Ion I·Jas in h:ls se11t 1 :1st n:l f!ht I¥ hen I re-emphas:lzecl again our posit:lon ~r :!th reg>~rcl to nr. Sel1ikof's proposed study of the asbestosis proble., :In l',a:fe ''erte. J s aiCI l11st ni!'ht and I '''ill try and recal] exactly what I did say and that Pas this, that while ''e hac" receivecl no direct coT11!'1nn:lc.Rt:lon fro"' T'r.

Sel.J1kof, no formal request for any monies, 1Je cl:ld receive a requef;t frol'l the hon. we!T1roer for Ba:le Verte-~\'h:l te Bay ('M'r. l'icleout) ind:l.cating that he ha<1 heen in touch w:lth nr. Sellikof anc1 T'lr. Sellikof thou~ht that ,,e, the provinc:lal government, shoulcl contribute someth:lnr :In the orc1er of $5,000. This ,.as di!'!cussecl very carefully by people down :l.n the department and in fact by sowe of my colleagues as well. In v:lew of 7121

Tape 2548 IR-3 !fr. rOLLINS: - ----- - information which '·'e h<1<l ,.hich :!n<Hcated that nr. Sellikof was a bit cnrcful, he ~ir not <mnt to he beholrlinp.; to anynne in his stuc1y, he c'i rl not lv<mt it tn he !latd and certainly l•!e <'r>ttl rl not 1vant it to be s,;,J th<~t rmv I'"rticular party - anrl three parties poss:lbly could be involver', the nnion!l, the company and the government -he "'anted to come tn and ~o r~n -inrlependent study and be behoJ d:!n~ to no one. No" lnf't n1p;ht I al!lo said that "'P h:>ve hac1 E<everal meetings i'l the c'ep11rt!"ent, nr. rolohan and 1-'r.

Tom SelJ ars, the neputy Y.inister, "r. 10 :!ppert, trv asRjstant deputy min:lster anfl other people :In the rlepartl"ent, al 1 verv knm•ledp.;eahle, capable an<' dedtcated civ:! 1 servants. !'c h:1Ve a~rcerl - there h<ls been consultation w:lth the co!l'pany, "'ith "r.

Black lvhe> is the chief of staff, chief of med:l.cal staff at the lloylen Hosp:!tal in Ba:!e Verte '"ho incidentally does a lot of the 1-1ork for the co!T'pany, lvhen T. say for the company for the miners there - Pe have al 1 Ppreerl and I have cUrected. !lTV staff to leave no stone ltntnrnerl and J th:! .nk that :!.s a term I uRed last n:!.p;ht - to leave no Rtone unturned fn tern!~'< of as!l:!st:lnp.; fir. Sell:l.kof and h:ls st11ff wherever posRihle.

If it !lTeans purchasin!" and :1 t coul rl very t.•ell mean purchas:lnp some ;~rlrHt:lonal types of more soph:lst:l.cated types of <'<'lldpmcnt than we now have, tf ~t ll'eans thr>t ~•e will certainly flo it. Fe •dlJ !'lave 1'111 of our records available, everything. The sky is the 1 i.1"1t. Not.· T <~lso s<!:ld .last night that :!.n the event after t>r.

Sellikof co!"P~'< in, in thP. event that it can be shmm - anrl I am sure he m:!.ght he ilhle to s}H'W :It - that there :Is a need for some f:!nanc:!al support T 1-•i 11. only he ton rlad «nd I am sure the Province will be onlv to<' rlni! to no vhat ,,,e can to ass:lst him. ~·r. Chai=an, that i" " repent of '"h" t T ,;a1" l11st ni.ght. I cannot say anymore than that 11ntiJ l'r. Sell iknf <>rri.veR and ,.,e can s:lt do•vn and have a dis cuRs :I on T •.•ant to he very careful oi' ,.,hat :r Cll" say:lng. T1r.

""llil-l'f i,; not hrrf' vf't. lle has mnde statements that he does not Pant tl'" I'OI"p;tnv tCl pArtidpate financially, he ,>oe" not want the union. T nm not sure at this parti.cul.ar time if he ,,•ould want us hut I still do 7122

Hay 7, 1976 Tape 254!1 IB-4 ''1'. CflLT"IN~: not rloubt the sinceritv ;mel the truthfulness of the hon. member for Baie Verte's(Mr. Rideout) request. But I can reassure h:lm aga:l.n that anythine we can do in equ5pment, in co-operation, with staff, with vehicles and with money if necessary we will do it to make sure once anrl for all that vre p:et to the hot tom of this problem in Baie Verte. T hope ancl I believe that ''e will pet a p.:ood report from nr. Sellikof. l''r. rhai Tl'lan, there is not much more I can say.

I can talk all morning I suppose but not say anymore than I have just said now rerarding the asbestosis problem in Eaie Verte and :nr. Sellikof 1 s trip ancl resenrch stucly, '~hat ever we mip,ht cal 1 :1 t. Now, the hon. T.e"lcler of the Opposi t:l on last night requestec1 that I would table the contracts bet'''een the government and Scrivener Nelvfounrlland J,lm:lted with regard to the Health Sciences Complex and thP ra1ebonear hosp:l tal. I inc"icated at that time that while the money for the r.arbonear hospHal l·ras :l.n my estimates, and it is, and there is a reason for that which T am sure the hon.

Leader of the Opposition reme!'lhers because he was H:lnister of Health I believe at the til'le when th11t project '"as ber;inninp.: to get off the ground as it were, I believe that it Nas at h:fs sugp.:e,;;tion that the supervision for the construction of the Carbonear facility ~rould come to his department he being the ndnister. Vf! • ~OBFT>TS : "1'. C:OLLIN~: No, not C:Arbonear. Not Carhonear. ! ~· l'ORFVTS: Scrivener came first. Carbonear came afterwards. ~,., r.nLLJN~: Yes, okay. It is a case of location. l'TI. P.OBFPTS: Yes. HR.

COLLINS: I·Je are dealing w:lth the same peopJ e but it is a case of location~ That is true. But that was changed after the people changed the government. l'"R. P013EPTS: ~'"R. COLLINS : Phat wts the change? v!ell the responsibil:lty for construction revertet! back to publ i c vrorks . ~"!'. ROBERTS : Now it has Moved back to health again. 7123

Tape 2548 !B-5 . ~!.l'l ~..:_ ;'o, it 1~ not in Health. !"T'. T'nnr.:nTC::: ~lo, ''en 1 th ,,,as never responsible. I'T'.~T.T..!.TN~: "r. ChairTr;m, I am speak:l.ng in terms of what my officials t~ll ~P in the rlays of the - an~~ay it is not important really. It js not :Important. I do not wean to make any further points on it. "nt wh11t I am say:lnf': :Is that the Department of Public 1-iorks is the a!'ency oi' ~overnment which goes out and does all construction. The f11ct that the moni.es are in the nepartment of Health has got no real 1--earinl' on :l.t. l·'l! • po_RET>'rli : ~IR.

COLLINS: ~ousseau <'!oes :l.t. No~' I di<'! not say a word '~hen the Lea<'ler of the npposition ~.,as speak:lnp.:. I just sat here and l:l.stened and said nothing nhout :1 t. I undertook laRt n:lght to discuss the tablinr: of the r.ontracts '•ith Scrivener with l!IY colleague, the hon. l":l.n:f!;ter of Publ:lc Porks and Services. I also said that I would discuss it with my ~oJlearues in r11binet :If that were necessary. That we d:!.d last nip:ht after we left here :md thi.s moroin~_>. I also checked ~o•itb my o~m people c'mm :In the department and we have nothing down there to table. It :Is 'in Public T•'nrks.

As a consequence of further meetings with my r.olleap;ue here anr1 with some of "'Yother colleagues ~1e have decided to tahle - I will table :It now - the contracts hetween government and '·'e have only one copy my col league tc1J!" !"e hat the f,ct that T·!e are tahHn[! it, I a.m sure that he can ;-~t TTinre c.opi E'S :1 f T·•e want them. ~o. "r. r.hairman, I ito not kno,., what else I can say about thE' ashPstosis h:lt.

T have respondet't on three occasions to it and the T.NI~er of: the Opposition indicated last n:l ght that this was one of the l".nst :IT!'portant c'ocuments and he would not move :In his position at all vH hnut the tah 1:1 ng of that. Fell there it 1 s. ~W. NEARY: to h.1vc a copy. 'T • r.nr.L nw: ronld the minister get copies mace1 I would like The TTouse can ret them made. Let the House make them is prohnh1v the h~st thinp.

Hay 7, 1976 Tape 2549 PK - 1 The bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: I thank the minister, and I had not said the contracts-were the most important documents. I said the matters to grow out of the contracts are,in my view, a~ong the most important ever to come before this Committee. And I thank the minister for tabling the contracts. I think that is the right decision, and it will certainly make,! would hope,matters go more quickly.

As I said to him I knew that he was not in possession of them ministerially, but I explained why we had to ask him, partially because it is his money in the parliamentary sense. He is asking the Committee to vote the monies, I think, it is $6 millions or $7 millions to be spent this year. And even more importantly it looks as if the Public Works estimates will never come up for discussion, it will go through, it will slip through under the guillotine, the closure rule, the seventy-five hour time limit. And so there will never be any discussion of the matter unless we raised it here now.

Now I thank the minister, as I said I would, I will ask leave to Hithdraw my motion,if it is granted well and good, if not, then it has to be, you know, voted upon when it is the appropriate time. But as I understand the rule, Mr. Chairman, I need unanimous consent to withdraw a motion, so I would ask or I ask Your Honour to ask or whatever is correct if that is the wish of the Committee. I feel that our purpose has been achieved. I will be in touch or I will ask my colleague and friend the gentleman from Baie Verte- Hhite Bay (~1r. Rideout) to he in touch with Dr.

Sellikof to relay the minister's words as they were given here in the Committee a few minutes ago. HR. COLLINS: Dr. Sellikof knows them already. }IR • ROBERTS : ~e will get the extract of the Hansard. Well I do not think that Dr. Sellikof knows them already. Although MR. COLLINS: -·----- I cannot say for sure, but I expect he does. MR. ROBERTS: Well he may, I mean I have not spoken •~th Dr. Sellikof since Friday evening last. That is seven days past, I do not know what has gone on in those seven days of course, but then 7125

May 7, 1976 Tape 2549 PK - 2 ~re wi] 1 go on from there. And so if that is in order, if I could have a look at the contract, Your Honour, it has been tabled, but there seems to be a lamentable delay in getting material frrnm the t~hle of the House to the member. MR. NEARY: They are getting them done today. MR. ROBERTS: Are they? MR. ROBFRTS: But then I would like to have a look at it any ~ray. You know, for example, that letter that the gentleman from Kilbride (Mr. ~~ells) tabled last week from Mr. Andrew Crosbie, I have never seen a copy of it.

It has never been sent to my office or here that I am a1~are of. l'IR. NEARY: I got a copy of it. ~m . ROBERTS : Well the hon . gentleman - MR. NEARY: I have it here. "''R. ROBERTS: Yes. But I mean things are supposed to be distributed automatically, and some times it takes a while for them to get from the table. But any way I will ask leave to withdraw that motion, if it is the wish of the Committee, and then we can go on and talk about some other matters on the Health estimates. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CHAIR'MAN: Order, please! If the hon. minister would just permit me one remark.

On the point brought up by the hon. Leader of the Opposition,! would certainly undertake to see what the hold•up is in the circulation of the documents and papers table.d. The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. All I a~ked was for leave - '!~ . CP.OSJ\TF: -------- I believe I have the right, Hr. Chairman, to speak jn the Committee the s~rne as the hon. gentleman. t·!l': . ROBERTS: ~ -· ---- - Why not? ~r. Chairman, it has nothing at all - 'IT'. CROS!IIl' : __ _ ... __ _ The bon. gentleman is finished his remarks. 'IR. RORP.RTS: ------- No~I have not. No. No. No I have asked - MR. CROSBIE: If you have not - 7128

Hay 7, 1971\ Tape 2549 PK - 3 ~ffi. ROBERTS : - leave to withdraw ~ motion, if it is granted well and ~ood, if not then well and good equally. "!R. CROSBIE: I want to ask some questions before. MR. ROBERTS: Well he can ask all of the questions he wants, except as a minister he is not allowed to ask questions of the ministry. MR. CROSBIE: I want to ask questions of the bon. gentleman 1that is all. MR. ROBERTS: Sure. 1-'R. CRm>RIE: I have a question for the bon. gentleman. ~fR. ROBERTS: Sure. But let us get the motion out. "'R. CHAIRMAN : Order, please! SOME RON • MEMBERS : Oh, oh! l4R.

CHAIRMAN: ------ Order, please! The rules indicate that a motion on the Order Paper or a motion put, proposed to be put can be withdrawn with the unanimous agreement, and I would ask the House is it the unanimous agreement that this motion be withdrawn? lffi. CR0SBIE: ----- Mr. Chairman, you know, before this matter comes up I want to ask the hon. gentleman a question? MR. CHAIRMAN: ------- I understand the unanimous agreement is not given at this time. SOME HON • MEMBERS: No . 'fR. CROSBIE: I mean the issue is not dealt with yet. Surely before unanimous consent is given we can discuss or ask a question. MR.

ROBERTS: You can ask any questions you want, but I mean if leave is not given - lfR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CRflSRIE: The question does not arise yet, because it has not, you know, I just want to ask this question. I had missed the debate last night, Why is this Dr. Sellikof and his group dealing with Opposition?and this question~ ~~y is not Dr. Sellikof and his group dealing with the government or the Department of Health? MR. MURPHY: Three guesses. Of course - l!R. ROBERTS : Mr. Chairman, I will do my best to respond to the hon. gentleman. 7127

May 7, 1976 Tape 2549 PK - 4 tiR. CtlAIRHAN: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ------- MR. ROBERTS : - for legitimate reasons, he was not here last night 11t alL Dr. Sellikof, although the hon. gentleman's memory would serve him if he would cast it back, I approached Dr. Sellikof three or four years ago.- 'Tom' pass me that file- I read the odd book or magazine, I suppose we all do. Is it in here? MR. RIDEOUT: Oh ye.s! MR. ROBERTS: And I came across an

article in a magazine called Saturday Review, I believe, and it had quite a long piece about asbestosis. I said, "Well we have an asbestos mine, ... aybe we have an asbestosis problem,''so I took my handy little dictation book nnd I wrote a letter off to Dr. Sellikof in July 1973, and back came an nns~.,er in due course, and all that has come out in the House before. It was extensively debated last year and other times. So nr. Sellikof called me one afternoon three or four months ago now to say that they had decided to come.

And he had not been in touch with me before because he had been in touch with the company to see if they would co-operate, and they had agreed, and to be in touch with the union to see if they would co-operate, and the union had agreed. And that is why he has been in touch with me. He has also been in touch with the minister's officials, he has also ~een in touch with the University and I know not with whom else. I mean Dr. Sellikof is not approach~•g the government through me. nr. Sellikof is approaching me in my capacity as a member who showed a lot of interest in this problem three or four years ago and since.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member of Mines and Energy. Well then, Mr. Chairman, on that point, you know, this whole debate appears to me to be extraordinary. You know,it is used for political reasons, that is all this is. SOI<!E RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MP. ('ROSJllE: It is completely political. Dr. Sellikof has never approached the government officially, he may have talked to the government offic