P"RELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT Rouse of Assembly For the period 3:00p.m.- 6:00 - p.m. Thursday,February 24, 1'977.

February 24, 1977 The House met at 3:00P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 529 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like to welcome to the House of Assembly today a delegation from the Birchy Bay Town Council and the delegation is . composed of Mayor Otto Pope and Councillors Aaron Laite, Alvin Mews and Allen Quinlan. I know all hon. members join me in welcoming these gentlemen to the House of Assembly. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. John's East. MR. MARSHALL : I rise on a matter of personal ~rivilege arising from an

article appearing in The Evening Telegram's edition of this afternoon with the fantastic headline "Smallwood takes Marshall to task." Now, Mr. Speaker, the reason I am ~ising on this particular

article in the naoer is because of the headline mainly, because such a headline imputes that there l-Tas something to take the person to task about. Now unfortunately I was not in the Chamber yesterday,and the

article indicates I was not in the Chamber,but I would like to note that I missed about fifteen minutes of the entire session to date\and that was yesterday because of pressing personal matters that I do not need to go into here. But may I say concerning the whole

article and the statements by the hon. member, I regret that I was not here yesterday, that I merely read in this House, Mr. Speaker, what was said in this House by the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) on June 3, 1976. I merely read that~ and I merely read what was confirmed exactly by the hon. member last Friday in this particular House, and that was to the effect that between $10 million and $15 million a year was paid out of the public chest in return for private donations. One does have to be too much of a genius to put this over the 14:10

February 24, 1977 Tape No. 529 NM- 2 MR.. MARSHALL: entire term of the administration of the bon. member to come up with a f;gure between $230 million and $400 million. I want to emphasize, Mr. Speaker, it was not a personal attack on the hon. member,as he seemed to take it, but it surely and certainly was an attack on his custodianship of his government, his custodianship of the affairs of this Province. And · as far as The Evening Telegram saying that the bon. gentleman took me to task, I take the news media of this Province to task, Mr.

Speaker, for not reporting such a blatant admission by a former Leader of this Province. What kind of government can we expect in this Province if leaders of former administrations are able to make such statements in the House and they go unnoticed by the press? Surely to heavens if this is not noticed by the public of this Province, Mr. Speaker - MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I must now point out to the bon. gentleman that he is within his right in rising . on a point of privilege with respect to an explanation of personal matters.

I quote May as saying in regard to the explanation of personal matters the House is usually ·indulgent, will oe~t a statement of that character to be made without any question before the Rouse. No debate should ensue.thereon~but if another member is involved in the personal statement he is generally allowed to give his own view of the matter and to say whether he accepts it or not. I understand the hon. gentleman is speaking in reply to an explanation arising from the remarks made by the 1451 -- t .

February 24, 1977 Tape No. 529 NM- 3 MR. SPEAKER: hon. gentleman from Twillingate yesterday. But I do wish to point to his attention that he may not debate the matter. The hon. member for St. John's East. MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Obviously the ruling is quite correct. I should just close by saying, what kind of licence does this give to future governments in this Province if admissions like this are allowed to go unheeded bv the press and be public. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Heasr! Hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR.. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I am pleaded to announce the appointment of Mr. George B. Maca~lay,Q.C., presently Assistant Deputy Minister of Justice,to the position of Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General. Mr. Macaulay is a graduate in law from Glasgow University and commenced practicing his profession in 1953. Following his call to the Bar,Mr. Macaulay practiced law privately and then in the British Government service. In 1968 Mr. Macaulay joined the office of the Department of Justice in Newfoundland as a senior legal draftsman and 1452

February 24,1977 Tape 530 AH-1 MR. HICKMAN: ·was appointed Assistant Deputy Minister of Justice in 1970,~He _was called to the Bar of Newfoundland in 1968 and appointed Queen's Cqunsel in 1972. Mr. Macaulay is married with three children. He assumes his position as Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General immediately. Mr. Speaker, I am also pleased to announce the appointment of Mr. Keith J.H.Mercer B.A., B.C.L. , as ~~sistant Deputy Minister of Justice and Assistant Deputy Attorney General effective immediately. Mr. Mercer is a native of St.

John's, attended Bishop's College,and was the winner of the Junior Jubilee Scholarship in 1962t He graduated from Memorial University with a B.A. degree in 1966, successfully completed first year law at _Queen's Unive~sity foll~wing which he was elected Newfoundland's Rhodes Scholar in 1967. Mr. Mercer obtained a B-:A· (]urisprudence)from Oxford·. University in 1969 and a B.C.L. from that same institution of learning ·in 1970. Mr. Mercer was admitted to the Bar of Newfoundland in 1971, practiced law until 1974~at which time he joined the staff of the Department of Justice. Ron. members will recall that Mr.

Mercer also servec as Assistant Clerk and subsequently Law Clerk with the House of Assembly. He is secretary of the Rhodes Scholarship Committee for Newfoundland and is married to the former Harriet Pearce of St. John's. MR. SPEAKER: Ron. leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: • Mr. Speaker, 'tve on this side of the House greet with pleasure the ne'tvs that Mr. Macaulay has been promoted to .be the_ Dept!ty Minister of Justice,and Mr. Keith Mercer has been promoted to be the Assistant Deputy Minister of Justice and we certainly offer our congratulations to them, Sir, and to their families.

Both gentlemen have had eminent careers at the Bar, Mr. ~fucaulay for a longer period of course than Mr. Mercer, and Mr. Macaulay having practiced at the Bar of Scotland before he became a member of the Bar of this province. Many of us , Sir, have had the pleasure of working with these gentlemen. Indeed it was the administration of which I was formerly a part, the 145J "

February 24,1977 Tape 530 AH-2 MR. ROBERTS: administration led by the gentleman from Twillingate, that - ~a<! brought !~r. Macaulay into the province and that made him the Assistant Deputy Minister of Justice at the time that Mr. Cyril J. Green Q. C. left office as Deputy Minister of Justice and ~~r. Vince McCarthy, now J~dge McCarthy,was promoted to be the Deputy Minister of Justice , Mr. Macaulay , I think~is well known to ~e~hP-rs of the Rouse, Sir. Mr. Mercer equally well known because,as the Minister of Justice has told us, : Mr. Mercer has served with distinction at the Table of the House, Sir.

We wish both gentlemen well, and I am sure, Sir, they will give the government the very best of legal advice, Sir, and I can not resist saying that I think the government could use such advice and continue to use it, Sir. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR.. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STP~CHAll: Mr. Speaker, I wish to present a petition on behalf of 96 residents of the community of Fox- Harbour in St. Lewis Bay - ~n the southern part of the District of Eagle River. The prayer of the petition is as follows,"We the undersigned being residents of St.

Lewis, Labrador,do petition the government of Newfoundland and Labrador to construct a road in the community of St. Lewis. This proposed road would be approximately three miles long and would connect the outlying areas of the harbour with the school, as at pres~nt the children have to travel to school by boat and ski-doo. At certain times of the year it is impossible to get around the harbour by any means. We know the Minister of Transportation visited the community this Summer and is well aware of our desperate situation.

This is our second petition for a road, and if some positive action is not taken with this one, we will have to' take our request for a road beyond petitions !1 Mr. Speaker, I do not know exactly what 8etion I intend to take, 1454

February 24,1977 Tape 530 AH-3 MR. STRACHAN : but the people of Fox Harbour are very hard working. _It_ is a very vi.goro~ communiey. ·The people have made every attempt to maintain the footpath, the one footpath- which goes around the community. During the Summer they have very great difficulty because the - goods _are __ unloaded at the wharf, a small wooden wharf · at one extremity of the community, and the only way the · goods can be moved to the homes is across the harbour by boat,whiCh requires a good deal of work.

Additionally at freeze-up and break up there is a great deal of danger, and in fact there have been two deaehs over the last six years, ~ which'people have to travel back and forth across the harbour on very bad ice. Fox Harbour is out c _ _ -- 1455

February 24, 1977 Tape 531 PK - 1 Mr. Strachan: on a headland,and the ice there breaks up much earlier than North, and the ice moves back and forth a great deal, and they often have to go around the land by machine or sometimes across by ski-doo, and there have been two deaths. Additionally,when the ice is not firm enough to move across~the people have got to go around the back way, around the pond to school, and they have to take the children on cold mornings in komatiks to schoo~ and pick them up and take them . . back.

The children, additionally, have often got to wear . life jackets.on a cold morning in Winter, it is very difficult to strap eight, ten, twelve children in life jackets and take them across the harbour to school, and pick up them at night. I think they have an excellent case here for a road around the community. It must be one of the few communities in this Province which does not have a road around the community. I know the minister travelled with myself and the member from Naskaupi C·!r.

Goudie) into the community • We saw that the people had made every attempt, they had taken the heads off forty-five gallon drums to build their own culverts, to maintain the small footpath. They are concerned that they have a fish plant which is unconnected to the community, and they cannot utilize the fish plant. And I think they have an excellent case here, Sir, for · the immediate construction of a road this Summer. I know that the minister has looked at the situation, and I am hopeful that in replying to the petition he will give the people of Fox Harbour at least some good news on this situation.

I support the prayer of this petition, and I wish to lay it upon the table of the House and refer it to the department to which it relates. SOME BON • MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Terra Nova. 1456

February 24, 1977 Tape 531 PK - 2 MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I wish to present a petition on behalf of 700 residents scattered throughout the communities in the Southern part of my district from Port Blandford to Winter Brook. Also, Mr. Speaker, there are petitioners here supporting the petition from the districts of Bonavista South and Trinity North residents who are very concerned about this vital matter. There are approximately, as I have said, 750 petitioners. This petition was p~esented to me today by a Delegation from Bunyan's Cove, five men who are presently in the galleries today. Mr.

Speaker, the prayer of the petition, and I shall read it, AN HON. MEMBER: From what communities and coves? MR. LUSH: The petition ?Port Blandford, Bungan's Cove, Cannings Cove, Musgravetown, Bloomfield, Lethbridge, Brooklyn, Portland, I Jamestown, Winter Brook, and then communities in Bonavista South and communities in Trinity North. AN RON. MEMBER: Ex~ctly which ~ommunities? MR. LUSH: I really do not know. I could read them,if the minister wanted, as I go down through because they are from various communities really, and I have not looked at them.

So I will take a look at that, and I will give them as I look down through: Port Rexton I can see here, I do not know if that is - Bonavista; Sweet Bay, Charleston, Princeton, Summerville, Sweet Bay, Plate Cove, okay? The prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker./'To the hon~ House of Assembly; the petition of we the undersigned,being residents of the electoral district of Terra Nova,humbly showeth that we protest the abominable condition of the road from Port Blandford to Musgravetown, and we therefore petition the government ·- to upgrade and pave this road as soon as possible:' And,Mr.

Speaker, the prayer is similar from the petitioners of Bonavista South supporting the petition. Mr. Speaker, in support of the petition I want to say that as expressed in the prayer of the petition that the road is in a deplorable condition,~ are talking about fifteen miles of road from Port Blandford to Musgravetown, and over this road daily several 1457

February 24, 1977 Tape 531 PK- 3 ~. ~U$b: hundred students travel back and forth to school from Bungan 's Cove . to Musgravetown, from Grades V upwards right now,and there are plans to phase out tl:te elementary school ' 1458

February 24, 1977 Tape no. 532 Page l - mw Mr. Lush. in which case all of the children from Bunyan's Cove will be transported over this road, from Bunyan's Cove to Mu~g!av~town I The road is in a tremendous state, Sir, of disrepair, and it is doubtful whether the _ roa~ _ will make it through the Winter. As a matter of fact,the last time I was over the road - now granted there was a bit of a storm - but the last time I was over the road I thought that I would have to come back via the Clarenville route. Mr.

Speaker, I should express the concern of the residents of Bonavista South and Trinity North that when they have to travel Westward, that they would naturally like to use this road, the Port Blandford route which is a much faster route to go West ,but the road is in such a deplorable condition ., tlia.t - now they have to go the Cabot Highway and the Clarenville route, which is on a round trip forty miles longer. And thus they are concerned for this upgrading and paving of this particular road. And, Mr.

Speaker, as well, there is no industry in the area which means most of the men work out of the area, and I they also have to commute over the road daily and causing a lot of wear and tear on their cars, trucks or whatever, and causing unnecessary expense to the people. Another point, Mr. Speaker, which I have raised in this House before, and that is the people in that • part of the district do not get any benefits from the Terra Nova National Park, from the tourists.

And the reason, of course, is that they do not have sufficient services in that part of the district, and the--roads certainly are an important part of the --- --- services that must be provided in this area before the people·of this area can reap sufficiently from the spin-off of the tourist potential in the Terra Nova National Park~· Mr. Speaker, as I have said before, the road is in terrible condition. The people have been very patient, and I am sure that the Minister of Transportation and Communications that he, I expect, in the past,when he was respresenting this part of 1459

February 24, 1977 Tape no. 532 Page 2 - mw Mr. Lush. the district, that he has presented similar petitions from the people of this district and still, Sir, to no avail. And they are today counting on the sympathetic consideration of the minister since he knows the situation very well. And I · too would hope - - ~h~t th~ -~~~~ster ~uld give this matter his very serious consideration, and hopefully that we can get some monies allocated this year for the upgrading of this particular road. Mr. Speaker, I ask to have the petition placed on the table of the House, and referred to the appropriate department. SOME_ HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I just want to say a few words in support of the petition so ably presented by my hon. friend, the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) on behalf of almost 800 constituents in the districts of Terra Nova and Bonavista South. It is a terrible thing, Sir, terrible, terrible, It must be awfully frustrating for these people to have to tolerate these conditions especially, Mr. Speaker, when the Minister of Transportation respresents one of these districts.

And I do hope, Sir, that the minister and the government will pay attention to the plea that was made by my han. friend on behalf of his constituents ; to have some money set aside, whether it is all provincial or whether it is a joint venture by the Province and the Government of Canada . , __ b_ut at least these very dangerous and hazardous conditions of that road, Sir, should be rectified at early a date as possible. The ~zo_¥ - ~s-very·- ~angerous. There are a lot of curves in it. It is rough. There are a lot of hills that need to be eliminated. And I do not think I have to tell the minister.

I would like to hear the minister respond to what my hon. friend said in presenting the petition seeing that the minister's own district is involved. And I might say, Sir, that I am very glad indeed also to 1460

Febnarv 24, 1977 ~. Nearv. Tape no. 532 Page 3 - mw note that the delegation. who brought the petition in to my hon. frie~d is sitting in the gallery, in the people's House when the petition · 1451.

February 24,1977 Tape 533 IB-1 MR. NEARY: is being presented. So they will be able to see for themselves whether or not this government is genuine and sincere in helping the people of this Province and whether anything will be done to rectify this situation. SOHE RON. 'ME!1RERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SD1MONS: I will yield to the minister if he wants to respond. Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I support the petition presented by my friend and colleague from Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush) on behalf of the 750 people ~n his district, the district of Trinity North, and the district of Bonavista South. Mr. Speaker, my friend from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) has the petition. MR. MORGAN: There are more from Bonavista South. MR. SIMMONS: I heard him say that a number of the signatures are of residents in Trinity North. ·And if the minister wants to contradict me on - that be aay, but I. would take t~ word-of my friend before I would take the word of my other friend. In the districts of Trinity North,as I was saying, Mr.

Speaker, Bonavista South and Terra Nova we have a number of thousands of people who would like to avail of more ready access to the Western part of the Province, a shorter distance than going the Cabot Highway, ready access to Gander airport,for example,and so many other examples of the kind of convenience and indeed necessity the improved road would provide. At the risk, Mr.

Speaker, of being just a little bit too tongue- in-cheek, let me say to the people of those communities and their representatives in the House in the gallery today~that on behalf of the government; even though I am not a part of it- I can tell them that the road qill be done within three years, done, upgraded and paved~because we are told by this government that all roads in the Province will be upgraded and paved within a five year period of 1975. So it is only three years at most. I would enter a special plea that it be done a little sooner in view of the particular needs. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

MR, SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. 1462

February 24, 1977 Tape 533 IB-2 PREMIER MOOFES : I also rise in support of the petition,knowing the area,and knowing the people,and also knowing the priorities of the Province. All these roads have to be done in time, and speaking , on behalf of this government, Sir, I can say that in time they will~ as opposed to . the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d 'Espoir (!.fr. Simmons) who obviously is getting his advice from Mr. Levesque. SO~ HON • . ffiMBERS: ·Hear, hear! MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. ~~- · ROBERTS: ~r.

Speaker, if I may say a word or two in support of the petition without getting into the smart ·alecky comments of the Premier. AN HO~. MEMBER: Ordel"! }1R. ROBEPTS: Yes, }fr. Speaker, order, and if it is in order for the Premier to make smart aleck and inane comments, then it is equally in order for me, Sir, to refer to them. I would like to support the petition, Sir. I think the prayer is a very reasonable request and I think it should be granted.

In so doing,! would like to point out, Sir, for the benefit of anybody in the gallery who is listening, and for the members of the House,that the ministers have been told by the Premier not to speak in support of these petitions, Sir. And I find that to be both significant and disheartening .,because it sho~rs, Sir, that the ministers,and the Premier as their leader,are not the least bit interested. in these pet.itions which come forward. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am not allowed to debate the matter and so I shall not. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! ' At the - beginning of the hon. gentleman's remarks I did not intervene because when there is an infraction on one side then one can obviously expect there is going to be a somewhat similar infraction on the other side. But ~ that quia pro qui having been finalized I must return to a strict application of the rules. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: I thank Your Honour, and as I understand Your Honour's 1463 ·.

February 24, 1977 Tape 533 IB-3 MR.. ROBERTS: ruling,what Your Honour is saying is that two wrongs in Parliament do in fact make a right. Which is a new doctrine. · ~rr. Speaker, I think the prayer of the petition is a very reasonable one. These people have a right to adequate road connections. They do not have them now.

And given the fact that we have seen such very large assistance coming from Ottawa,and therefore we are seeing a lot of the road work done - the Bonavista North road entirely under DP~E with ninety . per cent federal, the Northern Peninsula ~oad entirely under DREE with ninety per cent federal, the road to Burgeo entirely under DF.EE with ninety per cent federal, the Burin Peninsula road was paid for by DREE, the -road to La Scie, the road to Baie Verte, and then subsequently the road to La Scie again ninety per cent federal, I think, Si-r, that the - AN HON. MEMBER: The Loop Road. MR.

ROBERTS: I mentioned the Loop Road through Bonavista North. I think, Sir, that it is only fitting that the government of the Province show some concern. I would think, Sir, as well in view of the fact - and I welcome this - that large sums of money have been and are being spent in the neighboring district of Bonavista North - I am sorry, Bonavista South - MR~ NEARY: Both. MR.. ROBERTS : Bonavista North is entirely federal . •' 145~

Tape No. 534 NM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: and of course the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cro~s2_ t~ld ~s why they are being spent there. MR. MURPHY: Where should the federal government spend their money? In Russia. MR. FLIGHT: No, not down there. MR. ROBERTS: No, Mr. Speaker, the federal government get their_ money from the t~ayers, of all Canadians; Mi. Speaker, including the bon. gentleman from St. John's Centre who doubtless pays his share of taxes and Sir, if I had an income as large as his I would gladly pay my taxes too, Sir. And, Mr.

Speaker, the fact remains that this Province is substantially the gainer, substantially the gainer on federal/provincial transactions. I would like to see us more the gainer. Mr. Speaker, the point I am making is that in Bonavista South, Sir, we are seeing large sums of money spent,and I welcome that. I think the road down the South Shore of the old Cabot Highway, good to have it upgraded; . . . good to have the road from Amhers~ Cove-is it? _-across to·- Catalina is being upgraded.

I welcome it, delighted to see it,and t hope, Sir, that the Minister of Transportation, since apparently he is not to speak in support of this petition,will show the same concern for the people who have signed this petition, the!same support for these peopl~, Sir, as he has shown for others. After all, Sir, many of them were his constituentsi he knows many of them personally; they know him perso~ally, Sir, and that should lead him to look upon their concerns with a tender regard and I very much hope that . the petitions so ably presented by my friend for Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush), Sir, will meet with success and we will see the work on this road started this year. Thank you~; SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! 1465

February 24, 1977 Tape No. 534 NM- 2 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. SOME RON • . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! _......-..;;;;;....;=.;;;.;.;.,.....:=:::.;;::;;;:;::=.~-- ---- - - ·- - - . MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, just to say a few words in support of the petition.

The road leading from Musgrave Town across through ·Bunyan's Cove and on to Port Blandford is indeed an important link in fac_t _ to the southern part of Bonavista Bay and parts of Terra Nova district,and also o~_the Tr~nity Bay side of the Bonavista Peninsula, -~e~~use- it is a link with the western part of the Trans-canada Highway in that direction towards Gander and on to Grand Falls and these places where many of them commute back and forth daily to work. But that road is an example of any ~ther roads around the Province which need upgrading and paving.

Last year,in the hon. gentleman's district of Terra Nova~ approximately $1 million was spent by this administration, strictly provincial funds,to carry out reconstruction in preparation for paving and Mr. Speaker, out of a total of approximately $12 million, $13 million around the Province provincial funds I would feel it is a fair allocation to an Opposition member of the House of Assembly and rightly so. Mr. Speaker, the petition warrants consideration as all petitions brought before the House of Assembly.

It does not necessarily mean when a minister stands to sup~ort a petition~that he is going to automatically allocate funds to have the road work done. It depends on budget restraint. It depends on how much funds are allocated totally around the Province. It also depends on what assistance we can get from the federal level of government. We have approximately 2,400 miles of gravel road around this Province. In fact the exact amount is just 2,450 miles of gravel road, rough gravel road in many cases. It cannot all be done in one year. It cannot all be done in two years.

But hopefully,with the assistance from the federal level of government, through the assistance of DREE agreements,we can carry on with 14&6

February 24, 1977 Tape No. 534 NM- 3 MR. MORGAN: the magnificent work we have been doing the past three years,and in . ~b._E! _ ~~;---~~r~e ~;_ four years all these roads will be done in our Province. SOME RON. MEMBER: MR.. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: Hear! Hear! The hon. member for Conception Bay South. Mr. Speaker, I rise and I will probably be out of order so I will give the Speaker notification now to keep an eye on me. AN HON. MEMBER: Keep an ear on you first. MR. NOLAN: An ear on me, correct.

I certainly support the petition,particularly in view of the fact that the : minister did stand to address himself to this particular petition,and of course I would think perhaps some of it would be welcomed by those who are in the area who are in our pu~lic galleries today. However, surely the press and this House must have noticed the fact that my hon. friend here, when he referred to Fox Harbour,had no seconder at all, and the conditions he described. And this to me leads to what you have in the resolution we are going to be dicussing on Wednesdays and why we have problems with Labrador and other areas.

I know I am out of order. All right. PREMIER MOORES: Three of them sp~ke to this one first. MR. RIDEOUT: It is a good point though. MR. HICKMAN: He says he is out of order,but obviously saying that one is out of order,and admitting that one is out of order does not give an hon. gent ieman--the-right to be out of order. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. 1467

February 24~ 1977~ Tape 535, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker~ to _ ):~a_t so-called ~. point of order the Minister of Justice, Sir, better than anybody,would know that merely admitting one is out of order, Sir, is not enough to cure a default because he himself has fallen into that trap~ Sir~ on occasions. Mr. Speaker, I submit that my hon. friend, while he may think he is out of order, Sir, in fact is not out of order and I say that for two reasons; first of all,you are not out of order, Mr.

Speaker, you are not out of order, not even the Premier is out of order, Sir, until a~d unless Your Honour so rules. And secondly, I do not think my friend and colleague from Conception Bay South (~~~ Nolan) said anything that was out of order. ~11 he was doing was supporting the petition and in so doing he made a reference to what passed in this House earlier on. As I understand the rules of this House, Sir, that is not in itself out of order.

Now if he goes much further, Sir, I think he is probably out of order,but I do not think he intends to go much further • I think he has made the point and I submit, Sir, he should be allowed to carry on without this harassment from the Minister of Justice, Sir. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member was certainly in order while he was speaking on the material allegation of the petition. He appeared to ~egin to speak with respec.t to a material allegation of a former petition~and i; he were to -----continue to speak on a former petition he would be out of order.

But knowing the bon. gentleman as I do, I am sure he will be speaking on the material allegation of this petition. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: I felt like asking, looking over at my hon. friend, was it I Lord? But anyway I have fliiished --------- ----- - 1468

February 24, 1977, Tape 535, Page 2 -- apb MR. NOLAN: what I had to say on that matter. I just wanted to get a word in~ SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bellvue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I am not rising to support that petition. I have a petition to . present on behalf oi some residents of the community of Butter Cove. Following these two previous . petitions with. ·large numbers of . - ··- - · -- .. -- -- · . - -· names, perhaps this petition might be considered unimportant because of the small number of names that we have here. There are only nine names on the petition.

They surnames, Mr. Speaker, are all . the same, and the names are all the names of men. So the wives in this case apparently did not bother to sign their names. These p_etitioners, Mr. Speaker - well,let me read the prayer. It says: "We the undersigned residents of the community of Butter Cove do hereby re~uest that government make monies available for the drilling of an artesian well in our community." There are several thin~s that could be said here. Number one ~ _Mr. Speaker, they are ~sking that monies be made available simply for the drilling of an artesian well.

It appears from that that they are quite happy to do the other - _WO~-~~ perhaps ._ at their O'tm expense. I know I have had a number of calls from various communities in the district of Bellevue, a number of coves, Norman's Cove, Long Cove, Dildo Cove -well not Arnold's Cove because they have water and sewer, Sir, the got it a few years back - Gooseberry Cove, Garden Cove. There are a great many coves in the district of Bellevue but, Mr. Speaker, there is at least one town in the district as well, that is Blaketown. Mr.

Speaker, last year out of thirty- six communities, and out of at least 'twenty water committees in these various communities looking for an artesian well,and .. - ·- · - in some instances looking for monies to hook up existing -14 &9.· .

February 24, 1977, Tape 535, Page 3-- apb MR. CALL.AN: artesian wells, artesian wells which were drilled in previous years for different reasons, only one amount of money, Mr. Speaker, only one ·artE!sian well which bas ------ ------ -·- - been drilled through a LIP grant a few years back, only one amount of money was made available in the whole district of Bellevue, thirty-six communities. In Blaketown, I think, $2,000 or $3~~<!_0_ ~s __ ~de av'!~ia~le.

MI:· Speaker, beside the coves that we have in the district of Bellevue,there is also a community which has the name Swift Current, and there is no doubt about it,the current is swift there. It runs through the park that I talked about to the Minister of Tourism a while ago, Piper's Hole, and 1470

February 24, 1977 Tape 536 PK - 1 Mr. Callan: the current is swift, but Mr. Speaker, it is not swift enough to give an adequate supply of drinking water to residents who live in various parts of that particular community. The coves that I speak of, Mr. Speaker, have lots of water but then that w~ter is not suitable for drinking either. Mr. Speaker, there is much that could be said. All I hop~ when I support the prayer of this petition, all I can say is that I 'hope that the present Minister of.

Municipal Affairs,under whose jurisdiction the Water Services Division comes, I hope that minister will not be as~ cruel~ 'perhaps is a hard word to use, as the former Minister of Municipal Affairs. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear, hear! MR. CALLAN: Mr •. Speaker, I suppo~t the prayer of this petition and I ask that this petition be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from LaPoile. AN RON. MEMBER:. That is okay, get up. MR.

NEARY: I get the temptation to get up and give my hon. friend a hand to try to get this deep water well drilled down in Butter Cove, to try and get some drinking water for these poor people down there. I agree with him, Sir, that it is very harsh and cruel indeed in this day and age for - I presume it is nine families, there are nine men and that would be about nine families, multiRlY that by four, were you would have about thirty-six or thirty-eight people - AN HON. MEMBER: They might be all bachelors. MR. NEARY: Pardon? AN RON. MEMBER: They might be all bachelors. MR.

NEARY: They may be all bachelors, but I have grave doubt, Sir, that you would find nine bachelors concentrated anywhere - AN HON. MEMBER: Ask Buddy , he knows, he lives down there. 1471

February 24, 1977 Tape 536 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: - in a small Newfoundland, ·~~ity. It .would be very rare indeed, although it could happen, Sir. It could happen, it could be a crowd that came over from Switzerland or come from-aways .• Jhat is about all you would find, you know, the same sex living together in various Newfoundland outports, they would have to be come-from-aways, or they would have to come from Switzerland somewhere, for some kind o~ a protest, they are trying to hiae from something.

But I am sure if they are Newfoundlanders that they have families, and you will probably discover that there are thirty-five or forty men, women and children involved. I would submit to the House, Sir, that this is the first time probably in the whole history of Butter Cove that a petition was presented on the floor of this House, and it is probably the first time, Sir, that Butter Cove has ever been mentioned in this hon. House.

And I congratulate the hon. g-entleman for making such a strong case _ ~Althougb there were not 700 or 800 or 1,100 or 2,000 names on the petition ~ ,my hon. friend made a very strong case on behalf I of his constituents in that community of Butter Cove. Mr. Speaker, I was hoping as I listened to the hon. gentleman .Present the petition that he would tell us how Butter Cove got its name • . There are a lot of places around Newfoundland that it would be very interesting indeed to find out how they got their names. And this is one of the communities that I would like t9 find out how it got its name, Butter Cove.

And maybe the hon. member and · myself can have a private conversation outside after, and I will find out how Butter Cove gats its name. But I do support - .. , MR. MURPHY: I can tell you by the number of zoats. MR. NEARY·: By the number of votes? MR. MURPHY: Goats. HR. NEARY: Goats. ~ see~ - Well . it could be, Sir. The bon. member from St. John-'s Centre always bas the answer.He is quick wit, . always there to lend a helping hand, Sir. But nevertheless, Mr • Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition, and I hope that every hon. member of this House will take the advice that my hon. friend from 1472

February 24, 1977 Tape 536 PK- 3 Mr. Neary: Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) just gave the House; do not base your decisions to support a petition on the number of signatures on th~petition, or the number of people in the galleries. If it is a good cause get up and support it, do not discriminate. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: MR. NEARY: And I regret very much that I omitted to ~upport the petition presented by my friend from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan). AN HON. MEMBER: Retroactive. MR. NEARY: But I am doing it now retroactively, Sir. ~d I support all petitions - MR. DOODY: Whatever the cause. MR.

NEARY: No, no whatever the cause, they have to be for a good cause, and this is for a good cause • It is for a drop of drinking water. My hon. friend the Minister of Finance all he has got to do is get up in the morning,turn on his tap, and out comes the water from Petty Harbour Long Pond - MR. NEARY: all. From Windsor Lake. - or from Windsor Lake; from Windsor Lake,no problem at AN RON. MEMBER: He does not know what he is drinking. MR. NEARY: And the hon. gentleman never had the experience of lugging water in buckets. MR. DOODY: I did indeed in Kelligrews for many' a ·year-. · MR.

NEnY: But, Sir, it is a very worth~hile cause and I hope that the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing can set aside .-- 1473

Februrary 24, 1977 Tape no. 537 Page l - mw Mr. Neary. a few hundred dollars in this fiscal year to give the people in Butter Cove a drop of drinking water. SQME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: I, too, would like to support the residents of Butter Cove in their search for an artesian well for water for their community. I come from a district which is plagued by the need for water, and I realize the concerns of the people of Butter Cove. Mr.

Speaker, before the last election in my district, there were some thirty or forty wells drilled, and after the election the Department of Municipal Affairs could·not find where they were. I bad to go and locate them for them, and after tWQ years they still have not had pumps or anything else put on them.

Now, you know,·these are people, small groups of people, in small areas throughout the district, and when you talk to these people and realize how far they have to go for water - and one of the basic privileges, I suppose, of life is water and a proper road - then you realize that there is something desperately wrong. And I do hope that the minister will ·see fit to provide these people with water, and I would like for htm to take a look at my district as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The member for St. George's. MRS.

MACISAAC: I, too, would like to add my support to the petition from Butter Cove for a drop of drinking water. Coming from a district where I have twenty-three communities, just in ~ district alone which are .in need of drinking water. not iust a few people in each community, but the entire community. And iD, some areas people are hauling water in pails and buckets and · anything that they can find for miles and miles around. In some cases

February 24, 1977 Tape. no. 537 Fage. 2 - mw Mrs. Macisaac. they have to drive ten, twelve miles to the Trans-canada Highway, or probably the Minister of Transportation was kind enough to have his men fix up a little spring in the area. But it is a terrible thing when you do not have drinking water or water for any other household use.

And I think that it is just a lack of concern,or maybe the fact that ninety-nine· per cerit of us have never known what it is all about to have ' to run next door or down the street or to another town or brook to look for a drop of water. .We have been probably brought up in an environment where we just have to turn on the tap. This is not the case in the outlying communities. And I sincerely hope that the Minister of Municipal Affairs will send some of his people out into the district to take a look at what is going on and the inconvenience that is caused to our people who have no water. SOME RON.

MEMBERS : Rear, hear! MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. membe~for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir. MR~ . MURPHY: H~ is r~ally_auxious to get to his feet. MR.. SIMMONS~ That is right! That is right! You better believe it, too. MR. DOODY: The minister wants to speak. MR.. SIMMONS : There is lots of time. Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to yield for any minister, particularly that one from Municipal AffairB-. -Perbaps he would like to support the petition, have the courage of his convictions as did his friend the Minister of Transportation. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: This . is a subject, Mr.

Speaker, that we can all pretty rarely - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 1475

February 24. 1977 Tape no. 537 Page 3 - 1llW MR. SPEAKER: I have to state now what I stated on a couple of occasions last session,that is, _ if an han. member wishes to make a point of order, then he must do so in the regular fashion by standing and making it.But not sort of coaching,or what could be regarded as coaching or statements of'order'or~r. Speaker! It Should be done by standing and making a point of order rather than what could be regarded as directions to the Chair in another manner. The han. member. MR. S IMM.ONS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The subject of this petition, Mr.

Speaker, is one that strikes a cord for all of us who r~present rural districts. The member for St. George's, ~s~ Micisaac), the member_ ~or __ Pori; _ ~~- !or~ - (Mr. Hodder) and others of us can cite, and have cited,many examples where the need for an adequate source of drinking water is a very real one. It is a need they wrestle with every day of their lives, and I could be mentioning communities like, Francois, and Grey River and MacCallum in my own district again in support of the prayer of this petition. 147R

February 24, 1977 Tape 538 MR. SI~NS: The member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) in presenting the petition made reference to the former Minister of Municipal Affairs. Now we have a new minister and I hope we can hear from him. And perhaps instead of Brutal Brian we can have g.::nerous ·Jerry., and perhaps he can be generous ~~ere the need is greatest to help those people in Butter Cove and the many doze~s of ~.~~e.r ~-o~:f,ties throughout this PTovince who are without an adequate water supply, help them to get it. The Premier has often talked about priorities. I cannot think, Mr.

Speaker, of any greater priority than the one which is represented in the prayer of this petition. SO~ RON • ~mMBEP.. S : Hear, hear! ~-· SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. T.ffiiTE: Mr. Speaker, I cannot let the moment pass again as a member of this House representin~ a rural district in Newfoundland with twenty communities without water and many of them large communities, without getting up and supporting the petition presented by the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan)on behalf of the people in Butter Cove. Mr.

Speaker, I have said many times in this House - and I know I will say it many times again - that it is pretty easy for the people in the St. John's area and in the larger centers not to be concerned about the problem of water in rural Newfoundland. They do not have to experience it and therefore they cannot be concerned about it. But I it is, Mr. Speaker, one of the most serious problems in Newfoundland. It is probably the problem that I get the most complaints about from my district.

While we realize the theme of the government's cutbacks in spending and this kind of thing, we also know that there are people out there, Mr. Speaker, who need water and we hope that this government will provide water.Even if it is only artesian ~~lls, Mr. Speaker, then let it be that. I invite the Hinister of Municipal Affairs, }Tr. Speaker, who has not had very much to say in this House since he was appointed to the new portfolio, to stand and - MR.. SPEAKE F.: Order, please! 1477

February 24, 1977 Tape 538 IB-2 'MR. SPEAKER: I must point out to the hon. gentleman,and indeed to a couple of previous speakers,that in my understanding it is not in order to refer or to debate upon whether other members have or have not spoken to the petition. I did not intervene first because it could have been a sort o~ _ pa~sing _comment, and one does not wish to analyze each word and each phrase. But if it becomes a consistent practice,which it .would.now appear to be becoming, then I think it would be improper. }"F_ • WHITE : Mr.

Speaker, I j~st want to conclude by saying I would be very interested,as all members would be,in knowing how the Minister of ~unicipal Affairs feels about this particular matter. MR. DINN: _How_ good are you at all. ~. SPEAKE!'.: The hon. ~Ainister of ~!unicipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: ~I. Speaker, I had to rise with all of these people wanting to hear me speak on a petition - SO~ EON • MIDffiERS : Hear, hear! MR. DINN: - for artesian wells, one of the top priorities in my department in the Water Services Division. I am surprised to hear hon. members opposite criticize this area of my department. MR.

WHITE: 1-~R. nnm: MR. ROBERTS: MR . SPEAKER:· ~. ROBERTS: We have not criticized Water Services. Certainly you have. We have, ~r. Speaker - A point of order - A point of order has come up.

I welcome the minister into the debate,and I realize he does not have much opportunity and so he may not be familiar with the rules.B~t:: Sir, I would like nothing better than to be able to debate the minister's Water ·services- -iHvision, hut - I understand we are not allowed to do it on a petition, Sir, and the minister,! submit, either has or is about to slip over that thin but wavering H .ne that divides support for a petition,on the one hand,which is in order,from, o~ the other hand, debating,which is not in order.

Now if the minister feels we should not criticize his department, Sir, I think he should have another -thi~k - ~~min~. But unfortunately it is not in order now although I - and I know I speak for a number of 1478

February 24, 1977 Tape 538 I'B-3 MR. ROBERTS : my colleagues, Sir, all of them I think - would very much like to be able to debate the conduct of the Water Services Division. I could list the wells drilled in my district that are still awaiting the pumps, the wells drilled at the direction of the lady who was kind enough to run for the Tory Party against me, Sir. But to the point of order, Sir, I think the minister is about to slip over the line and I would ask, Sir, that either he be drawn to order 1 or .if not corrected, we all be extended the same privilege~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR.

HIOOfAN: To that frivolous and vexatious and ill-considered and unprecedented and harassing point of order raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, may I draw to Your Honour's attention the very lucid submission made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition a few minutes ago when he said that an hon. gentleman 147~

February 24,1977 T.ape 539 AH-1 MR. HICKMAN:is not out of order until he is ruled out of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.. HICKMAN: This point of order is raised by the bon. the Leader of the Opposition simplyin that he suspects that the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs is about to debate t~e services provided by a particular division of his department,and thatif therefore he is about to debate it , he will then be out of order. Mr. Speaker, I . . .. -- --do ~summit this is a frivolo~s and vexatious point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: I will not rule the bon. !1inister of Municipal Affairs out of order 0 He was very close to the beginning of his remarks. I would point out to him,however,that in continuing them, his. remarks must bear upon the material allegation of the petition which is the provision of water services in a certain rural community and must be very closely related , necessarily related to the material allegation of the petition and not government policy in general wit~ respect to water sarvices, municipal affairs , etc. The bon. minister. SOME RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, with respect to all petitions for water in Newfoundland,certainly this government is concerned and attempting to do what it can,and certainly the bon. me~er from Bellevue, that will be taken into consideration with all the other things we have to do this year with respect to artesian wells, etc. and hopefully that will be one of the ones that will be completed this year. I SOME HON. MEMBlm.S : Hear, hear! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS TO WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GI.VEN. MR.. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to reply to a question placed orally yesterday by the bon. gentleman from Baie Verte-White Bay with regards to the determination from analysis of tests carried out by the Department of Transportation or for the Department of Transportation with regards to the possible asbestos dust, the· possibility 1480

February 24,1977 Tape 539 AH-2 . -MR. MORGAN: of asbestos dust being in the road dust on roads like ___ the Coachmans Cove Road and the Seal Cove Road and the Baie Verte Peninsula. The department engineers took samples from seventeen locations on these two roads. The s~les wera ~nalysed and tested by the geogology department of the Memorial University, by Dr. Thompson and Dr.Vatre. These tests were done under a X-~y defraction system,or an electron scanning system,and these tests report back to department indicated that the tests did not determine that there were asbestos dust in the road dust.

Therefore the position of the department now is we will await the report which will be filed with my colleague, the Minister of Health, from Dr. Selikoff and when that report is received then the department will be in a position, after getting the report from Dr. Selikoff,determine what action to take from there. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: Hon Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, now that the Minister· of'Justice distinguished himself by- PREMIER MOORES: The Fire Department. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, the Premier says the Fire Department, I would think , Sir, the minister has quenched his ardour. Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Premier, it grows out of the continued activities of Greenpeace and Mr. Weber and these other knights in tarnished armour who have come among us. Have the government prepared,or have they had prepared for them a programme of advertising and publicity which is designed to counter the increas~gly viciously b~~~ecCpubii~ity compa~gn being carried out by the Greenpeace people and by Mr~ Weber and by whoever else, Mr. Davies and all of these kooks who come from away,determined to tell us how to run our lives in this province,Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker ',no we have not put together any counter publicity campaign .The cost of such a campaign, when you have taken 148-1 ..

February 24,1977 Tape 539 AH-3 PREMIER MOORES: into consideration the sort , ef· appeal ~at-~­ ;, been....., raised by these peop.le who, ~e Leader of the Opposition, I think, put it very well when he described them,and people who '1pportunists :£n theit' own rlght. .... - . ---. - ·- . - -------- -- - I think a counter campaign to undo the sort of publicity that these people have creat~d in-, particularly I would suggest the U.K. and Western Europe and also to a degree in the U.S. would be a colossal amount of money and 'I th~, Sir, after hearing the last hour in this House I would suggest the money . 1482

February 24, 1977 Tape No. 540 NM- 1 PREMIER MOORES : after hearing the last hour in this House I would suggest the money we have in this Province, we know our traditions, we know our principles and we know our values, Mr·. Wel?er or no one else is going to change that. I hope there are enough sensibly minded people throughout this world who will _understan ~ ~hat qur problem is ~ithout a pu~licity campaign. And rather than spend money in that regard, Sir, we would rather do it on the services for the people of this Province. SOME BON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker. MR..

SPEAKER: A supplementary? MR.. ROBERTS : Yes, a supplementary, Sir. ·The Premier may have adverted to this supplementary, Sir, but I would like to put it to him squarely and he can answer as he wishes. Are the government prepared to c~rry out such a compaign either _within Canada or throughout the world.And let me say that I am the first to realize, as the Premier has said, Sir, that to attempt to counteract this publicity on a world scale might be very, very difficult but I am growing increasingly concerned about the fact that it is not being answered even in Canada, Sir'.

Are the government prepared to carry out a campaign to counteract and to tell the truth,is what I am suggesting? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Well I think, Mr. Speaker, that can be done through the Rouse and with the co-operation of our own media who after all have the access to the CP and the other wires that go across this nation. It can very easily be pointed out what the cost is to this Province. The fact that the seal herd eats in effect six times the .amour,t of fish of the total inshore fishery in this Province. These facts are known.

The fact that the only predator of the seal of any consequence is man. Facts that are

February 24, 1977 Tape No. 540 NM- 2 PREMIER MOORES : reason, that are based on the economics and the economic t.pact on this Province. I think we have to depend on that, Sir, as opposed to any specifics. Surely Newfoundlanders or Labradorians do not have to have it explained to them. Surely the Federal Department of Fisheries, through Mr. LaBlanc, who has already said on many occasions he backs the seal hunt and certainly it is his responsibility to explain why.

We will co-operate in any way possible to put forward the position, but to mount a specific campaign, Sir, I think is giving too much credit and credence to Mr. Weber and Mr. Davies and all these other · mi~begott~n people. MR.. ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS : A further supplementary, Sir. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, does the Premier still feel, and I say still feel, I am not sure he has ever spoken on this but his colleagues have, that the best way to treat these people is simply to ignore themZ By these people I mean Mr. Weber and his friends. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier.

PREMIER MOORES: I think I answered that yesterday, Mr. Speaker. The fact is -I do think it is better to ignore them. I think they have got enough sympathy and income for making martyrs ~f their c::ause and of themselves as leaders of those causes. I think they . are dealing with a bleading heart audience that are do-gooders and on the wrong subject. They do not understand what the seal hunt is about in this Province. They do not understand what the tradition is and what is in many ways a hard way of life.

It is all very well to come from the comfortable pew of some sociological arena like some of these people have but I suggest, Si~,. it is better to spend ~t in Uganda than it is the front in Newfoundland. 1484

February 24. 1977 'rape No. 540 NM- 3 MR.. SPEAKER: Another supplementary? MR. ROBERTS: No, Sir, I just merely wanted to give notice that I will ask the Premier to debate this this afternoon on the Late Show. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) followed by the hon. member for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. J. Winsor). MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to put a question to the hon. the Premier' in connection with the Newfoundland Light and Power Company and electrical rates for the people of this Province.

Is there any foundation at all or could the Premier state the position of his administration now in relation to Newfoundland Hydro taking over the Newfoundland Light and Power Company as was disclosed in a story in The Daily News, this morning~ · ·MR~ ·sPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : I do not know what~ ~as in The Daily News, Mr. Speaker, but there is no intention~to my knowledge or to government's knowledge,that hydro,and if they did intend we would know, there is no intention for them to take over Newfoundland Light and Power at this time. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary question for the hon. the Premier. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. I MR. NEARY: Would the hon. the Premier indicate to the House if it is the - intention of the government in this session of the House to appoint a select committee to look into this whole matter of the distribution of power--iii Newfoundland 'l PRWIER MOORES: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

NEARY: Would the hon. the Premier indicate to the House if it is the policy of his administration now to bring the power down from Labrador to distribute to the Island of Newfoundland and if so will it be sold to Newfoundland Light 14-85 •

February 24, 19n Tape No. 540 MR.. NEARY: and Power Company or will Newfoundland Hydro distribute that power themselvest MR. SPEAKER: The · bon. the Premier. PREMIER MoORES: First of all, Mr. Speaker, the question is somewhat hypothetical because in order to bring the power down froa:_Gull_l;sland 7 as an example,we need a customer for the other half of that power. There is some 1600 megawatts of power there, 800 megawatts. can be used in th&· ~-l~fi .. par~. of the Province , NM- 4

february 24, 1977 Tape no. 541 Page 1 - mw Premier Moores. and the other 800 megawatts, there has to be a customer for it. Now whether that is Quebec Hydro, whether it is the Maritime Energy Commission now or whether it is the industrial customers that can be located on the site in Labrador or here in the Province, that is the first question that has to be ~nswered. Upon the deliverance of that power to the Island part of the Province if. and when -=--aii<Ll hope it is shortly · . .=-rt happens, I would suggest that the distribution system would be the same as it is at the present time. MR.

NEARY: Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the hon. Premier then tell the House, in connection with a meeting that was held-between the Leader of the Opposition and Mr. Levesque, if in fact the development of the hydro in Labrador was discussed? Has the Premier met with the Leader of the Opposition or has the Premier agreed to meet with the Leader of %be opposition in connection with this matter? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Not yet, Mr. Speaker. I would look forward I to having a report from the Leader of the Opposition.

And I am sure that he, like the government, never made any commitments to give away the power from Labrador to Quebec as had happened in the past. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. J. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the bon. Minister of Public Works. Would the minister indicate to this House when he will be answering a question which I asked pn Friday, February 11? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. ROUSSEAU: The hon. minister made a statement last week that he would. I have, and I hope that within the next couple 1487

February 24, 1977 Tape no .. 541 rage Mr .. Rousseau. of days. And the hon. member, if he reads the newsp•pers ,1 shOUld know - · -·- -- - t~;_~e hon. minister has been tied up. But I am not trying to mislead the House. I gave a commitment that it would be done, will be done. I have the draft in my desk. If I can get at it tomorrow morning, I will. If not, it will be early next week at the latest possible date. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Stephenville. - ·-MR .. MCNEIL Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Finance..

Has the government received any preliminary recommendations from the Advisory Board of Labrador Linerboard concerning its future? And if not, when does the government expect to receive the preliminary report from the Advisory Board? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: The Terms of Reference to the Advisory Committee were quite clearly set forth - I think it was back in November - and it was a six month period given at that time. Since that time, of course, the market conditions have deteriorated. The committee has been working overtime, as it were.

There was a meeting yesterday of the Advisory Committee, and I understand once again that they got updates, and they have sent their various sub-committees, and .: their various people that they got working with them out with more detailed instructions to pursue various areas of cone~ and bring in further information. I have been told that there will be another meeting, and I think it is here in St. John's, within a week or ten days of _ ~he , advisory group. At that time perhaps they will be in a position to give us a preliminary report, or preliminary bunch of suggestions or recommendations or whatever.

Up to this time we have not. It is a very complex problem. It is a big problem. It is a big area· of concern, and they are working at it very diligently and very hard, and, you know, they are doing it as quickly as they can. And they will report to us as quickly as they can. 1488

February 24, 1977 Tape no. 541 Page 3 - mw A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. MCNEn.: Is it true that the former Minister of Mines and Energy, John Crosbie, recommended that the Labrador Linerboard be converted to a paper mill some time ago? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DOODY: I cannot honestly say whether Mr. Crosbie recommended that or not. He certainly did not recommend it to government or to Linerboard. Whether he recommended it to somebody else or not, obviously, I am not in a position to say. But that recommendation was not made to government or to the board. MR.

HODDER: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Is the minister aware that two new paper mills are presently being constrdcted in Canada at the present time, one by Reid and another by Kimberley Clarke1 And does this not indicate to the minister that there is a demand for paper products in Canada at the present .time? ·MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DOODY: I was aware of the fact that there was a demand for paper in Canada and the world the first day that I took office in this building, Sir.

There have been innumerable I quantities of paper drifting across the desk and beyond, and to me the · major mystery is why there is a paper problem at all. I am not being facetious or smart alecky. I mean the question itself was obviously meant in that way. MR. ROBERTS : No, Sir! MR. DOODY: The Reid mill is not a linerboard mill, as I understand it, nor the other one. And our problem right now is with the linerboard mill, and that is what the advisory group is addressing itself to. To ask me if I am aware of a paper shortage or the need of paper, an ongoing 1489

February 24, 1977 Tape 542 IB-1 MR. DOODY : ~~-ket_ ip.___!~- world. You know, it simply does not apply itself to that particular mill. - . -.MR ~ HODDER: . ~e -~re ~al~ing about conversion • MR. SPEAKEP_: A supplementary. 1-!R. ROBERTS: ~r. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. If I may say so, Sir, it is wrong~ and I think he is doing the gentleman for · Port au Port _(l'!~_ · _ Hod~j!r) __ ~disservice, Sir. I could raise a point of order if hon. gentlemen want because the hon. minister has no · right by the rules of this House to question the motives.

But I do not think the minister meant to question the motives. I think he just slipped unwittingly into it. Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is this. Is it or is it not part - . of the terms of reference _of the Advisory Group that the government have appointed to advise them with respect to the future disposition of Labrador Linerboard Limited, is it or is it not part of their terms of _reference to consider,among other questions 1 the matter of whether or not it would be advisable and desirable,under the circumstances 5to convert the Linerboard Mill as it now is into a newsprint mill? ~. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: ~r. Speaker, that I guess was the reason for what appeared to be my irritation at the question because it was publicized at the time quite clearly that all the options - and the hon. member was present at the meeting when the options were outlined to the public in the area in the presence of the Advisory Group who were invited in. And I might say that they were a group of experts in the industry, a group of people who are well equipped to advise us orooerlv on wh~r. course of action we should take in that respect.

One of the options that was quite clearly defined was the advisability of converting to some other product. That is why I felt that the question was not meant in the best interests of the problem as it is now. It was certainly not meant in any other direction. The 1490 ·.

February 24, 1977 Tape 542 IB-2 MR. OOODY: _!= _e_~~-C?! _!~_!~renee that were given to the group were as the hon. Leader of the Opposition outlined 7 very b~~ ~~~ · One of them was to examine the possibility of a conversion to a more profitable and reasonable product · line. To say that, "Am I aware of the fact that Reids are building another mill," obviously either presupposes the fact that the hon. member was not present at the thing or he has not read the terms of reference of the Advisory Committee. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SI¥.MONS: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Public Works. It refers again to the matter raised by my colleague earlier, the member for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. J. Winsor). It refers in particular to page 109 of the Auditor General's report. I believe' though my question is somewhat different than the ones he has taken under advisement earlier.

I wonder would the minister indicate whether in view of the contravention of the law as po,inted up by the Auditor General in paying out $2.6 million to three unidentified companies, compani~s A,B and C, whether in view of that the minister has made any efforts or intends to make any efforts to recover the amount of $2.6 million, actually $2,644,756, whether the minister has made any effort or intends to make any effort to recover the amount of $2.6 million which has been paid out in contravention of the law as reported by the Auditor General? MR . SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public Works. MF_.

ROUSSEAU: I am going to go on a basic assumption that whatever was signed for by an inspector and was paid was for work done and it was not illegal. ~aybe the Auditor General may feel that the method - that is his prerogative. But I am going to assume that. But I say this again, - when I am in a position within the next couple of days, okay - and I am not misleading the House - in the next couple of days I ~.rill do that. Okay. AN. RON. MEMBER: We have been waiting for weeks. MR. SPEAKEF: A supplementary. MR. S !M}f()NS : Mr.

Speaker, this supplementary is based directly on the answer whiCh the minister has just given me. The Auditor General 1491

February 24 ~ 197'7 Tape 542 IB-3 ___ , MR. SIMMONS: has mentioned that public tenders should have been called. He also points out in reference to these same amounts that the work orders under which the officials were operating had limits of $100. And yet we unde-rstand that many of the purchase orders and work orders were in excess of that amount. AN HON. MEMBER: The minister can explain. MR. S!MMONS: All right. Well the minister will have an opportunity to explain that. My supplementa_ry ~_or the minister, }(r.

Speaker, do I interpret from what the minister has just said that he is condoning the practice which his officials followed in paying out these amounts'Z Albeit let us assume the work had been performed and perhaps performed satisfactorily - that is another question - but is he condoning the methods, t~e procedures which have been used in paying out this $2.6 millie~ without the calling of public tenders and through the issuance of as many as 480 work orders on a given day for the same job? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public Works. 1~92 ·-

February 24, 1977, Tape 543, Page 1 - apb MR. ROUSSEAU: ___ ___,I will_ answe-r _:f,e_f_Q~ the th.ird __ ti~. __ _ I will make a statement on the matters covered by the Auditor General in respect to the Department of Public Works in the next few days. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. - MR. SIMMONS : Would_ ~he minister agree to take under advisement, in particular, the question of whether or not : . he .. C:on~~nes;ih~minister condones the practice followed by his officials in this matter? MR. DOODY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: A point of order. I have to interrupt the hon. member. MR.

DOODY: I have to ask the bon. Speaker, is the word "condones" parliamentary in this context? To me, my memory of the die tionary, "condone" means that one presupposes something wrong has been done and in asking the hon. the minister if he condones something it presupposes that he is guilty or his officials are guilty of something that is absolutely wrong. That has not been demonstrated to my knowledge, Sir, and I ask · your ruling on that. MR. MORGAN: Hear, hear! I Good point. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

ROBERTS: To that point of order, Sir, I'do not ' have the dictionary in front of me, I have The Evening Telegram in front of me and some of their spellings I think should be looked at in a dictionary ." .But-· Mr. Speaker, I think the Minister of Finance is right in spirit but wrong in what he says. The word "condona t ion" in my understanding, Sir, does not have such an implication. And certainly I know that my friend and colleague from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Sfmmons) did not intend any such connotation at all. I think the word • is properly and appropriately used.

I do not think he was casting any aspersions upon the Minster of Transportation. If he were, that would be improper. ---- -- -- AN HON. MEMBER: Manpower. ·-

February 24, 1977, Tape 543, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: I an sorry, the Minister of Manpower. MR. NOLAN: The Minister of Public Works. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry, the Minister of Public Works, you know, in this manifestation, the gentleman from Menihek. It would be improper to cast aspersions upon his character. MR. NOLAN: There is a bucket too. MR. JtOBERTS: Mr. Speaker, it is a bad day in the House. The Minister of Justice knocks over a glass of ·water and apparently a page has knocked over a number of speeches or something out there and I assume - maybe the member for Exploits (DR.

Twomey) could whip out his M.C.P. card and will not void his seat if he goes and treats the gentleman me~iically. Mr. Speaker, I think the point is not well taken. I do not think the use of the word "condonation" or "condone 11 in this context is unparl'iamentary. I think the question which ·-;y-. frf~nd from Burgeo-Bay d 'Espoir asked was . ----r- ~ - -- quite in order.

All that is happened, the Auditor General made certain statements giving his opinion~that is not an accusation of illegality, but it is certainly a statement by the Auditor General that in his opinion certain acts which were admittedly done ought not to have been done under the legisla~ion and the .question is; does the minister condone it? In other words, does he agree with that~ I think, Sir, that is a relevant question. I think it is a perfectly proper question and I think that my friend should be allowed to ask it. I notice Your Honour now has a dictionary · that Your Honour is reading.

The trouble with the dictionary, Sir, is -that the- -cast of characters is so varied. The plot is not bad. But in any event, Your Honour, I do think my colleague was in order to use the word. MR. SPEAKER: With respect to the particular word, as bon. members know, while there are so-called lists, the latest 1494

February 24, 1977, Tape 543, Page 3 ~ apb MR. SPEAKER: edition of May says that really whether a word, and certainly the vast majority of words are in order, a lot depends upon the context. Different dictionaries give different

definitions. The definition in here is to pardon or overlook voluntarily. Bearing in mind that it is the context, it was not my understanding that the bon. the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir meant to imply any wrong- doing on the minister's part. Perhaps the sfmpliest way to dispose of it is if he will inform me whether that

interpretation is correct, that it was not his intention to imply any wrong­ doing. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I could solve the problem by withdrawing the word and r~phrasing the question. I asked the minister would he take under advisement, with a view to including in his prepared answer concerning this matter - MR. ROBERTS: You have made no implication. Do not leave the implication that you meant it. MR. NEARY: May we continue, Mr. Spea~er? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I will rephrase.the question if I may.

I wonder if the minister would take under advisement and with a view to including in his prepared answe» concerning the matters we have raised with reference to companies A,B, and C, those three mysterious, unnamed companies, would he indicate whether he approves, whether he finds that the procedures used by his officials in dispersing the amount of $2.6 million is 1495

February 24, 19.77 Tape 544 PK- l Mr. Simmons: within the terms of reference under which these employees operate, these public servants operate? Also I would in case there is any doubt at allJmake it clear that I was casting no aspersion on the minister at all in using the word 'condoning' earlier. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. ROUSSEAU: I accept that, Mr. Speaker~ No this minister does not condone and the other fifteen ministers individually here do not condone, and collectively government does not condone any contravention of any law of this Province.

If indeed the law has been contravened then steps will be taken to rectify that. I can assure the hon. -· SOME BON. MEMBERS : .., Oh • oh !_ MR.. ROUSSEAU: Pardon? No and that will be taken under advisement; I - think that is a responsible question, and it will certainly be taken under advisement. But the minister does not - whate~er word was finally settled on 'condone' which I accept in the spirit it was given - . AN BON. MEMBER: Condone'l . - - MR. ROUSSEAU: -no, nor does gov~rnment.

And if anything _was done and pointed out by the Auditor General as being illegal I can assure bon·. members it will be rectified. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: I will allow one further supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: This is going to be a long prepared answer so we might as well have it complete as possible. Again with reference to the same subject.of three companies, I wonder would the minister take under advisement the matter of informing us, the House that is to say, the names of the three companies involved. MR. NEARY: Come down "boy" and I will tell you. MR.

SrnMONS: For that matter, I- believe, I could tell the member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary).But I believe it should be in the public record, or if not some documented reason from the minister as to why he thinks it is not in the best interest to be in the public record? MR .. SPEAKER: The hon. member from LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. - Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of 1496

February 24, 1977 '!ape 544 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: Fisheries; Sir, if he would give us a progress report on the first pilot joint venture project currently underway in this Province? Where the fish is being landed? The communities in which it is being landed? How it is being transported? And who is paying the transportation of the fish? Paying the cost of transportation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W .. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, the first fish to be lande .d under the 6,000 ton joint venture proposa~- ~- - be~ng _lande~ in Harbour Grace ·· where it is being pro~essed,firstly,by Ocean Harvesters Limited in. that community, and also the Fishery Products PUmt in Marystown. The fish is· being transported by truck from Harbour Grace to Marystown, and the reason 3 of courseJbeing that the facilities in Marystown were inadequate at the time to accommodate· the ship, and the fish would have to be transported anyhow from another port.

And the wharf, I think, in the shipyard was tied up or too busy consequently the fish had to be unloaded in Harbour Grace at this time and transported to Marystown by truck. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ' MR. NEARY: Well would the minister indicate then if this is going to continue in the future? Is the fish going to be unloaded in Harbour Grace and transported to Marystown? And who pays the cost of the I transportation? Does the transportation of the fish have to be subsidized by the government? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, this is strictly a one shot pilot operation, and what happens in 1977 might not necessarily be repeated in 1978 or thereafter. As I said before this is a QUe shot 6,000 ton effort, and not likely the same kind of a project will be undertaken in 1978 • There. will be a different approach taken to it in that year. MR. s. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. 1497

February .24, 1977 Tape 544 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: I wonder if the hon. the Premier, Sir, could tell the ' House, the ·han. the Premier is probably familiar with the situation, why all that fish cannot be processed in Harbour Grace, why it has to be taken down to Marystown? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Well I think, Mr. Speaker, thete are two reasons really as my hon. colleague the Minister of Fisheries said. Lfirst of al~ the . principle of landing in one port for ships that are coming in on the one shot basis has validity.

But to answer the hon. member's question, there are two things that have to be considered in any landings in the future by boats man&ed by Newfoundlanders, owned by Newfoundland companies or whatever. It obviously will be ---·---··-- ---- four but not any more than that, port landings because there are only so many ports that can (

a) handle these boats, and certainly only so many ports that you could put in the repair facilities, the net lofts, the spare parts, all the servicing that has to be done for this sort of very sophisticated fleet. The reason for the fish going to Marystown and to Harbour Grace is twofold. One Marystown is a deep water port now. It has got a year round fishery operation. Theoreticall y ------------------------------------------ ---------------------------- 1498

February 24,1977 Thpe 545 AH-1 PREMIER MOORES: the work skills at Marystown are more developed than an inshore plant would have. But the objective is,as the fish is landed from the 200 mile limit,is that the fish will fill up those inshore plants so that they are year round plants.

But in order to make a valid judgement on what skills have to be developed, what vocational skills have to be applied, what efforts have to be done by industry and government~ it was felt this year. that half the fish should go to a deep-water plant which has the year round skills developed and half to an inshore plant that only operates seasonally J normally, s ~ -~ that we get a difference in the two costs, so we know what upgrading of skills has to be done or just what the differential is.

In other words>to to try-in the pilot project · .• ~art of the information or knowledge that we want to obtain is to find out how the inshore plant and the - offshore plant, the year round plant, how the skills differ, so that we know what the challenge is ahead in the future at vhich time when hopef ~lly, with that resource that all the plants in the ·province are year round. MR. SPEAKER: One further supplementary. MR. NEARY: I thank the hon. Premier for trying to straighten me out but I still have not got the answer to the question , who is paying the cost of transporting it, is it the West Germans?

Is it the Fishery Products in the case of Maeystown or Ocean Harvesters ? Are they being subsidized to look after · die t':an~por~atiori and the unloading costs of these ships ? The expense of refrigerated trucks~ PREMIER MOORES : r would assume that it is probably part of the government effort on the cordination on the cost of the whole thing. I would say that probably the transportation is something 7 in order to find out the information I mentioned a moment ago,is probably somP.thin~ -· -that _comes through our account. I can take notice of that 14~9

February 24,1977 Tape 545 AH-2 PREM!ER. MOORES: question as can the minister and let you know definitely. But there are certain costs that - I know for instance the fish plants are putting in the thawing equipment which is needed. The Germans . as you know as putting up the observers, providing the logs and all the information from a technologica 1 point of view that has to be brought forward. I think as part of our arrangement, probably the transportation . in order so that we. can compare the two plants for future decision making and vocational programmes that may have to be put on.

I th!nk thatis probably for the Department of Fisheries., locally, but I will take notice and let the hon. member know. MR.. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the Premier tell us, in Harb~ur Grace and Marystown approximately how much storage capacity is there in each plantl In view of the fact that the fish being landed by the Germans is not for immediate processing but processing maybe months from

now, therefore a immense amount of storage obviously would be needed that is controlled - temperature storage, I do not know what that temperature would be, the Premier would know. Could he enlighten us on those points1 PREMIER MOORES: Actually, Mr. Speaker, the temperature is be·tween minus ten and minus twenty Fahrenheit ._The cold store capacity at Harbour Grace, I do know for · obvious reasons,is about 4000 tons • MR. SMALL~OD: · ··Metric. PREMIER MOORES: 400 Metric tons cold store space. Marystown) I . -would suggest,is probably about half that, but that is 6000 tons of finished product.

The total landings is only 2400 tons, this is the time of the year when the fish from the inshore fishery certainly is being shipped out and I would suggest for the amount of fish included 1500

February 24.1977 Tape 545 AH-3 PREMIER· MOORES: in these parti,cular joint ventures, there will be, or this particular joint ·-v-enture, there would be no problem whatsoever as far as storage faci1ities are concerned. ·MR. NEARY: A supplementary question. ·- - - MR. SPEAKER: Time is up. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER:· Order 1 - the adjourned debate. The hon. member for Terra Nova. SO'ME BON. MEMUERS: Here, here! MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I just want to review for a couple of 'I minutes some of the points that I was making when I adjourned the debate on Tuesday • I was describing the economic .and financial picture of the province and I had sa;ld that the government had failed to come to grips with the financial and economic problems which face this province today. I listed · the tremendously high rate of unemployment in the province · today,. 1501

February 24, 1977 Tape no. 546 Page 1 - mw Mr. Lush. 29,000 peo~le unemployed for a rate of 17.1 per cent in January, the highest rate of any January since 1966. Indeed, the highest rate for anv month since 1966. Mr. Speaker, I also made the point that the largest single industry in this Province today is unemployment. That is the largest single industry, Sir - unemployment. And again in January of this month 45,000 people approximately 45;000 people - on unemployment. Mr. Speaker, last year the Government of Canada ;poured ·into this Province in UIC benefits $173 million.

This year it is speculated that it will go to over $200 million. Mr. Speaker, the only thing -thatis keeping the body and - - -- - -- ·· . - - ··- · .. - - .. - -- -- - souls together of the people of this Province ~ is this unemployment insurance. But, Mr. Speaker, it is not a very sound way to build up the economy of this Province. Mr. Speaker, I had also made reference to the fact that the government, this present government, since 1'972, have doubled the provincial debt. The debt at the end of this year, at this point now, is approximating $2 billion. Mr.

Speaker, if we are too, again work this upon a per capita basis, the same as with the rate of unemployment, we would find out that this is double the national average. The Gross Provincial debt is doubl~ the ' national average. - Mr. Speaker, it is not a very pleasant pict~re, not one that any of us should be happy about. Mr. Speaker~ , I had pointed out that the --~ - government had failed to come to grips with the financial and economic problems that face Newfoundland today.

I further explained how the government _ had built up around it a bureaucracy, that militated against defective and expeditious decision making, and a bureaucracy which had rendered the government powerless, the effect of which, Sir, serving to alienate the people from the government of this Province. Mr. Speaker, I was pointing out, as well, getting up close to where I finished, how the government had circumvented and abandoned 1502

FebrUary 24, 1977 Tape no. 546 Page 2 mw Mr. Lush. their policies that they had enunciated in 1972 for the development of this Province. And I was pointing out how these - polici~s, these long-term policies, these long-term plans were now, Mr. Speaker, being substituted for short-term plans motivated only by political expediency. I had said that the policy d_ied quickly and that rigor mortis had set in very rapidly. Mr. Speaker, I was about to make the point, I was about to say precisely what circumstances caused decay,decedence and decomposition to set in, and Mr.

SpeaRer ~--that was when the government abandoned the principle that was to be the firm foundation on which all of the policies, on which all of the philosophy of this party was to be built. And, Mr. Speaker, I referred to the abandonment of the great philosophy of inter-regional equity. Mr. Speaker, this was abandoned, and in its place the government reverted to traditional cheap type of politics. Mr. Speaker, I ~as referring to Bonavista North when I was alluding to the fact that the government had reverted to traditional cheap politics. Mr. Speaker, let me say from the beginning, ~---· . 15: &~-

February 24, 1977 · Tape 547 PK- 1 Mr. Lush: I do not begrudge any of the benefits that Bonavista North has received from this government. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: I am rather happy about them, naturally I should be, my home is in Bonavista North, - SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: - and I am very delighted about it. But, Mr. Speake~~ I am not happy about the principles under which these monies were spent. And, Mr.

Speaker, the _hon._ .member from Bonavista North.., as I said,told . us the story; he told us about all of the developments in Bonavista North, the road work that was going on, water and sewer, but, Mr. Speaker, more is to come to Bonavista NoTth. And I was referring to a letter under the signature of the Premier of this Provine~ distributed to the residents of Dark Cove, Gambo and Middle Brook a day or so before the election. Mr.

Speaker, I do not think it comes from Confederation Building, I do not think it comes from Confederation Building, as a matter of fact I believe it came from a basement probably of a relative of mine, I do not like to say it, ' but you cannot help it about your relatives, and I think the bon. Minister of Social Assistance probably knows a little bit about this letter. And the letter - this is what it states, Mr. Speaker, a day before the election circulated in Dark Cove, Middle Brook and Gambo, Mr. Speaker, an example of cheap politics, politics of the lowest form. Mr.

Speaker, it says "The Go~ernment of Newfoundland had a meeting with the council on June 22, 1976, and it has made the following commitments'.' The council meeting was June 22 but it was - what time was the election? what day? AN RON. MEMBER: The 30th. MR. LUSH: The 30th. - the letter was conveniently kept until the 28th. or the 29th. - and these were the commitments from the government, Mr. Speaker, to the people of Dark Cove, Gambo, and Middle Brook, water, sewer and sewerage treatment facilities for all 1504-

February 24, 1977 Tape 547 , PK- 2 Mr. Lush: of Middle Brook, Dark Cove and Gambo, .' a start to made this year and the project to be completed in three years. Now, Mr. Speaker, what the Premier of this Province must do is tell the people what are the financial arrangements for this particular project. Is it the normal, conventional arrangements that was given to other councils in this Province? Or is it something beyond and additional to that? Point number two, Mr. Speaker - The hon. member should ask the Premier about that. ¥.It.

LUSH.: - secondary roads paved, roads aleeady within the water and sewer area will be paved next year; the remaining roads will be paved after the water and sewer facilities are installed:· Why would not the people of Bonavista North vote for the hon. member? If I were there I would have voted for him to get all of this. Why not? MR._ RIDEOUT: Vote for the government. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, but again the question needs to be asked, the question has to be asked, Mr. Speakers ' w~a~.a~e the terms? ~~at are the terms for the construction of these secondary roads?

Are they again within the provincial-municipal street paving programme which is an arrangement between the :?rovince and the municipal governments on a sixty-forty deal, 60 per cent by the governm~nt and 40 per cent by the council. Is that the arrangement, Mr. Speaker? Is that the -arrangement? Or does it go beyond that? And if it goes -- - .. -~ ~ beyond that, Mr. Speaker, can I expect a siliii.lar agreement in the district of Terra Nova, in the municipaL ' areas- of -~ l~vertown and Musgravetown? Why not, Mr. Speaker'~ ~eyiiot~-~s government said that it subscribed to inter-regional equity which means, Mr.

Speaker, spending the monies of this Province equally in all districts. And, Mr. Speaker, a further little tidbit, and this is the one that I like, this is the one that I would have voted on,this basis, becaus .e I live on that particular street,"if paving equipment is in the area the -Church Hill Ro~d ;:Lii b e paved thi~-y~r. II . - --...-··· - .. - .. --- - -------- . 1505

February ~4, 1977 Tape 547 PK- 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Naturally I would have voted for that. And I am happy that it is done, Mr. Speaker, it is done,all but the hill, now there is a little hill not done, and I am glad now when I go to visit my parents there,and Paul Thoms ,who was the member for here, when I go and visit those people I can drive over a comfortable street, Mr. Speaker, and I am glad about it. I do not begrudge any of this, Mr. Speaker, to Bonavista North, I do not begrudge them one single bit. But I _have said I obje~t on the principles, Mr.

Speaker, because it digresses from the philosophy enunicated by this goverument,that, Sir, of inter-regional equity. And this, Mr. Speaker, was done during a by-election time. It is an indication, Sir, of cheap politics. Politics that the people of this Province will no longer tolerate. 1506

February 24, 1977 Tape 548 IB-1 MR. LUSH: ~r. Speaker, also to show that this government has abandoned its policies for the development of this Province and instead substituted a policy - Mr. Speaker, I find it difficult to concentrate, ~r. Speaker, on what I am _· trying to say. MR. SPEAKER: Order, pl~ase! The hon. member requests silence while he is speaking. The hon. member for · Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, !.had said the government had digressed from its policy for the development of this Province and had reverted to cheap politics instead, , a policy, Sir, that is determined by political expediency.

They have abandoned their policy. They have abandoned their belief in _ in~er~regi~nal equitypand I quoted Bonavista North as an example. Mr. Speaker, I could quote several others. I could quote to you, Mr. Speaker,the district of Bonavista South. In Bonavista South - we heard the minister when he got up to speak to the petition - and, - ~·: Speaker, I -.;~as surprised at the lack of subtlety. He made no bones ab~ut it, that the government had dispensed -.;~ith this policy of iliter.::regional equit:y. He told us.

He said he spent $1 million in my district and he said that was good for an Opposition member's district, a blatant admission, Mr. Speaker, not even subtie about it, blatant admission. Mr. Speaker, the member mentioned that there was $1 milliop spent on road construction in my district. Well, Mr.. Speaker, I cannot rationalize that figure. In my district I think I know of all the roads. I visit there quite often ·, vecy: vis-ible there. r lcilow I all the roads. The minister mentioned $1 million. Well, Mr.

Speaker, the only thing I can say is that there were not more than eight miles of road constructed and upgraded in my district. I will stretch it a couple of miles and say ten miles of road. And the minister said that was $1 million. . l·7ell, Mr. Speaker, in the minister's o~m district there were thirty-one miles of road upgraded and reconstructed and getting ready for pavement, thirty-one. Well, Mr~ Speaker~ - MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker - 1507

February 24, 1977 Tape 548 IB-2 MR. SPEAKER: Is the .hon. minister rising on a point of order? MR. MORGAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would ask the hen. gentleman when he stands in this hen. House to make speeches that he would not mislead the House,either intentionally or otherwise,by giving incorrect information and not giving the facts.

If the hen. gentleman is going to refer to occurrences or activity in any part of the Province, whether it be in my district or some other.hon. gentleman's district, I feel it is of the utmost importance that this House not be misled by misconstruing the facts. 'I would ask Your Honour to ask the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) to retract any statement lvhich was made which was incorrect, which he knows is incorrect and therefore is untrue. MR.. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Trinity-Bay De Verde. MP .• ROl.JE: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. Sir, I submit that that is not a point o~ order.

My colleague is stating the figures in the numbers that he believes are correct. He has researched them. The hon. minister has not provided any proof whatsoever that my colleague's figures are wrong or misleading to this House,and I submit it is only a difference of opin~on between two members. MR.. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, to that point of order also. I find that, you know, it is a very specious thing. I find it inconceivable that the minister can get up and ask my colleague to withdraw something when he has not given us any evidence that what j my colleague says is not true.

Sir, this is no point of order for something:as foolish as that. MP.. SPEAKER: Order, please! There does seem to be a difference of opinion in regard to certain sta~istics. And possibly the best way it could be disposed of,is -if the hon. member would in continuing his remarks clarify what he might admit is a difference of opinion between himself and the hon. minister. Would he care to clarify, to expound a little further o~ those statistics • . It may clear up the area that we are concerned with here. The hon. member for Terra Nova.

February 24, 2977 Tape 548 IB-3 NR. LUSH: ~~. Speaker, I have no idea where I went wrong. I have no idea of any figures that I quoted or any statistics that I quoted that were not right and proper. 1509 - , -

February 24, 1977 Tape No. 549 NM- 1 MR. LUSH: I would -suggest that the minister should tell me where I went wrong. Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge they are right, they are accurate in every detail. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Order, please! If the hon. member therefore is informing the House that he has made statements which he understands to be full and correct,! would rule that he is in order to make such remarks and I would ask him to continue. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, thank you, very much. I was merely ·- saytng.

Mr. _Speaker, that the hon. minister had said that ther~ was $1 million spent in my district,and I was not refuting that other than to say·~! was trying to 'draw a comparison, I was trying to make a ratio,if you will. I was saying that to my knowledge there is certainly not more than ten miles of road paved in my district and that was $1 million. ·· I remember distinctly reading a statement from the minister not too long ago which said that for thirty-one miles of road that he was allocating $1.5 million for road construction and upgrading and paving and so on. Mr.

Speaker, there ceTtainly seems to be some inconsistency there if we work out the ratio, But that is all I was painting out, Mr. Speaker. In the district of Trinity North, Mr. Speaker, $5 milliott .•were allocated. The minister mentioned I was very fortunate, I ought to be very thankful, I ought to get down on my knees and thank the government for giving my district $1 million - AN HON. MEMBER: In Opposition. MR. LUSH: $1 million in an Opposition member, which is supporting, Mr. ·speaker, the thesis which is supportirg the whole idea of what I am trying to say. The hon. member from Trinity North (Mr. C.

Brett) announced recently that there was going to be $5 million spent 1510

February 24, 1977 Tape No. 549 NM- 2 MR. LUSH: in his district on reconstruction and upgrading . and paving of roads and for installation of water and sewer services, Mr. Speaker. I just use these examples, Mr. Speaker, just to show that this government has dispensed with its policy of inter-regional equity. It is a good policy, Mr. Speaker. It is a good policy. ' The only thing I am condemning the government for is abandoning this policy. Mr.

Speaker, in abandoning this policy, in having reverted to old traditional and outdated politics, politics which the people of this Province will no longer accept, policy based on political expediency and political advantage, Mr. Speaker, in doing that the government . have inflicted . a "tremei:i.d.(ius - . punishment on Liberal districts, Mr. Speaker, a punishment similar to that inflicted on Tantalus.

Now I do not know if we know about Tantalus but for the benefit of.hon. members Tantalus was the son of th~ go~ Zeus, and Tantalus was being punished, being punished for l~aking . out secrets of the Gods., and for the benefit of the media, and for the benefit of the particular newspapers, I want everybody to understa~d that Tantalus was not a member of the Liberal caucus. Tantalus was the son of the g~d · Zeus. And Mr. Speaker, he had given ·- . --------+- - -- - out some secrets.

He had let out some secrets. ___ So __ t~_!!~_!sh him they threw him in a lake of water . up to .his chin and every time Tantalus got thir~ty and stooped to drink the water, ! the wat~r receded, it ebbed back, every time he stooped to drink the water just flowed back.. And overhanging the l ike were grapes,and every time Tantalus reached for the grapes, the grapes just went up in the air. Mr. Speaker, that -is exactlr ' the analogy with the district of Terra Nova. We have got prosperity all a~ound us~ - --~ _ have got the words of the member for the district of Bqnavista North (Mr.

Cross) :-we have got prosperity all "':_ ~ ... - - ---· --- 1511 . - .

February 24, 1977 Tape No. 549 MR. LUSH: around us, Sir, but every t ·ime we reach for · the water, every time we reach for the grapes,we are punished because we have elected a Liberal member, Mr.. Speaker, and I wonder what is wrong with me. SOME BON~. _MEMBERS: Bear! Hear! NM- 3 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, it is most frustrating. It is most frustrating. Mr. Speaker, I have mentioned that the government, they have abandoned their policies, the good policies that they had in 1972. And, Mr.

Speaker, they have not lived up to the commitments that tl!ey have made to the people of this' Province, the, commitment to create employment, the commitment to treat all of the areas of this Province equally, 1512

February 24, 1977 Tape no. 550 Page , 1 - mw Mr. Lush. Mr. Speaker, to do away with patronage and graft and corruption. I could go into that, Mr. Speaker, but I do not intend to. I am sure that other hon. members will. But I just want to show, Mr. Speaker, I just want to say once again that this present administration, that this present government,is now a party without any policies, without· any strategies, . for the effective and efficient development of this Province. I pointed out the tremendously high rate of unemployment. I pointed out some of the deficiencies in the economy of this Pr9vince.

I brought before hon. members the excessively high Gross Provincial debt. And, ,Mr. Speaker, I feel like a·Tory almost when I talk about that topic, because that is a topic that I never thought I would have to raise with this particular government. Remember when hon. members were in the,Opposition~how they condemned the present Liberal administration for the provincial debt, the Gross Provincial debt. Mr. Speaker, this government, they have done very well. They have doubled it since 1972. MR. SMALLWOOD: Trebled it. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, that is a bleak picture.

It is a dismal picture, and one that we are not proud about. None of us should be. But, Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House, we do not believe the picture should be this way. We do not believe the, picture' should be this way. Mr. Speaker, in this last Speech from the Throne, this last document, the government called for sacrifice on the part of the people. · They called for harder work, and a greater commitment. sacrifice, and hard work, and a commitment to that type of a record. Mr. Speaker, I was · saying that we do not believe,the situation should be that way.

We believe that we can turn things around in this Province. We believe in the people of this P~ovince. We believe in the future of this Province. We believe, in order to get this Province moving, it-is going to take a lot of·hard work, hard laborious work. It is going to take 1513

February 24, 1977 Tape no. 550 Page 2 - mw .· Mr. Lush. - a tremendous amount of dynamic leadership. Mr. Speaker, we are going to have to dispense with this cheap type of politics, this type of politics that is concerned only with staying in power, and making promises to people, promises which mean nothing. Mr. Speaker, I submit to you today that we can change things around in this Province. It might be too late, Mr. Speaker, for this administration, it might be too late politically to do it. It might be too late.

It might be too late, because I believe that the people of this Province have had their fill, It might be too late politically, but, Mr. Speaker, it is not too late for the good of Newfoundland'. It is not too late for the good of this Province. It is not too late for the good of the people of NeWfoundland and L~brador to try and stimulate the economy of this Province, to try and do something for those 29,000 people who are unemployed. It is not too late, Mr. Speaker. Sir, I believe it is not too late to make a new start. It is not too late to make a new beginning. Mr.

Speaker, I would hope that the present government will take stock of what is happening, aud, Mr. Speaker, to ~~~lop~again go back to the policies that they initiated and enunciated in 1972, go back to those policies and develop a strategy for the implementation of these policies. Mr. Speaker, let us ' go back to the policy of. inter-regional equity. And let us practice, Mr. Speaker, what . we preach. And, Mr. . Speaker, I support this amendment for the reasons given and for other reasons not given. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hen. member for Mount Scio. 151~

Tape No. 551' NM- 1 DR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, we are now in the third week of this session and as per usual about half ·of the time is being wasted by the hon. member for LaPoile- (Mr. Neary). In fact I thin~ the most productive day was last Friday when the hon. member was absent. MR. ~Y: Hear! Hear! DR. WINSOR: But today I would like to speak on a matter that effects one third of our population and that is the St. John's Urban Region Study. My district of MOunt Scio is particularly ~volved and I have_~ few oQservations. _Xany years ago we realized that lack of controls would bring chaos.

In fact Mundy Pond should never have happened,and since it did it has cost many millions of dollars to correct it. Efficient expenditure of tax dollars is the prime reason for some sort of regional control. By 1991, 65,000 more people will be living in_the St. John's urban region. We are already late in planning to cope with the resultant problems, hence no delay can be justified. · There are many recommendations in the Henley Report that will never be implemented. But there is a consensus by just about everyone that some sort of regional control is necessary.

Because of the public's fear that another sort of bureaucra~ is to be set up,I would favour the name of the regional council. We already have Metro Board and in fact this in one way would be an elected group to a board ~hich would take over the functions of Metro Board with possibly many more powers. The make-up of the regional council, as suggested by the Henley Commission,! feel is quite fair. But there will be further discussions on this and probably adjustments made to ' give representation to all areas that are not absorbed into a larger or expanded city of St. John's. To service this region we 1515

February 24, 1977 Tape No. 551 NM- 2 DR. WINSOR: will have to have much input of federal money and some provincial input as well. We have to decide now what is the best way to cope with the existing problems and to plan for the future. This governs any decision that govermnent must make. We cannot continue as we are,but maybe more study is required. Mr. Henley has stated recently that these were the deliberations of three men, and the conclusions of three men,but they are not infallible and possibly a further study will be required before much of the report is implemen~ed.

But in my opinion it is an excellent report and will be - ~on$idered as a milestone in future years in the development of this area. Some have suggested that it is too concerned with the economic problems and not enough thought is gone into the sociological areas. Newfoundlanders are very independent --- -- - people and government should have much more dialogue with the people in the area before we change -the status of any particular community.

The following are the assignment of functions to the regional council; the water supply system, trunk sewerage system, solid waste disposal methods and locations, public transportation, planning and development, assessment and building functions, property tax and collection of these taxes.

The assignement of functions to local councils proposed -- - --·- -- --- are the installation of water and sewerage in the _council area under .- the control of the Water and Sewer Authority; the supply -- . -- of water and disposal of sewerage within its boundaries and the coll~ction of ~olid waste and the delivering of same to an approved site; the construction and maintenance of local roads. Now the Henley Commission states that the Commission --- 1516

February 24, 1977 Tape No. 551 NM- 3 DR. WINSOR: regards it as discriminatory and unfair that some people in the ~egion should be required to pay for the full cost of services to their property, while others expect to have the services provided at federal or provincial expense. The Commission recommends that a principle of recovery of capital cost should be applied in new subdivisions and the' provision of " "additional services to areas seeking such services.

Moreover the report recommends - - that it should be .forciblY .. pointed ~l:lt to buye~s 9f semi-serviced or unserviced lots that should such services be made available to them at ·a future date,that the then owner of the lot will be expected to pay the full cost of such services. To help pay for these services,the report recommends that the regional council would institute a capital value property tax based on assessed market valu~ to finance regional services.

Now the local community would only institute a property tax when and if these services, these major services such as water and sawer,are supplied to the community. 1517

February 24, 1976 Tape 552 IB-1 DR. WINSOR: The St. John's urban region is now faced with a heavy capital expenditure for ~Y'ater and sewer services in the region. The cost of the Bay Bulls water system will be about S28 million and the cost of the trunk services to service the region ~Jill be an additional $34 million. So the total cost of the water and sewer services to the St. John's urban region up to the boundaries of the communities will oe approximately $62 million. Of course~a large part of this will have to come from federal grants, the balance from provincial and municipal sources.

As Metro Board will remember,there was great opposition expressed in the press and to members of the Rouse of Assembly and to the provincial government in 1971 when Metro first considered introducing assessment property and business taxes and user charges in the metro area, when utility services were first-brought on stream. In 1971 the locally raised revenue was only $35,500. Five years later,in 1976,that amount that Metro raised had risE7n to $600,000. And in 1977 the expected revenue of the Newfoundland Metro Board is $850,000.

So you can see if Metro Board had not instituted these charges that the provincial government would have been called on to subsidize these services to the area by the amount of the taxes and so on and user charges introduced. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must now point out to hon. members the thr~e topics which will be debated at five thirty. They are in the following order - this is -the- order in which they were submitte~- the first one, hon. member for LaPoile (Mr ~ Neary) arising out of a question asked of the bon.

Minister for Fisheries with reference to the subject matter of radio and television station publicity to opponents of the seal fishery. The ·se cond matter, the hon. member for Lewisporte , (¥r. White) arising out of a question asked of the hon. Minister of Trans .portation and Communications on the subject of the Change Islands ferry situation. And the third, the bon. Leader of the Opposition arising from a 1518

February 24, 1977 Tape 552 IB-2 MR. SPEAKER: question asked of the hon. the Premier with respect td the government's position encountering adverse publicity accruing to the Province from the words and actions of Mr. Webber and various similar minded individuals and groups. The hon. member for Mount Scio. DR. WINSOR: In its report,the Henley qommission pointed out the need of fostering local fiscal responsib~lity and decreasing the dependency of communities on provincial handouts. This has been one of the objectives of ~.fetro Board.

The area under the juri~diction of Metro Board is about 350 square miles and the population it services is about 19,000 at this time. Only .those properties in serviced areas pay property tax and user charges. In 1977 taxes and charges will be paid by over~ I think, 1,800 dwelling units. Business taxes will be paid on all commercial and industrial properties whether or not they are in serviced areas. • Metro now -has to pay its share of cost of extending trunk services which will eventually service the areas now without sewer services.

It must pay its share of the cost of maintaining the new Bay Bulls Big Pond water services. It must also pay its share of the cost of maintaining the Robin Hood Bay dump site which is used for practically all households serviced·by ~etro area. It must also, under the regional plan approved last Fall by the provincial government,carry out the detailed planning for the ~~etro area. For this reason Metro Board will seek permission to put into effect in 1978 a property tax covering all properties under the Board's .jurisdiction. The only alternative would be larger subsid~es from the provincial government.

It is most probable that other unincorporated areas in the region which have not yet brought in property and business taxes will do so in 1977 and if not certainly in 1978. Among those that will have to do so if utility services are to be extended to their citizens are Conception Bay South, Holyrood, Paradise, the Goulds, Torbay and Pouch Cove. not a regional form of government is : 1519 Whether or '

F~bruary 24, 1977 Tape 553 PK- 1 Dr. Winsor: introduced, property and business taxes will be. Certainly these can be instituted in a more efficient and effective way if the Henley Commission recommendations are carried out _pertaining to a regional council. In my district of Mount Scio at this time Portugal Cove and St.?h~llips are preparing for a local government .• Boundar~es are b~ing discussed. and satelite communities,such as . Windsor Heights,will be approached as to their wish if they want to join Portqgal Cove or to remain separa -te under control of the proposed regional council.

In the_ St._ Phf:11ips area.,discussions are or shortly will be commenced with the Local Improvement District of Hogan's Pond and St. Thomas. as to their joining St. Phillips in one local government area. It must be stressed again that the proposed regional council will have elected representatives either directly or indirectly and hence there will be no taxation without representation. Also taxation rates will be decided on the level of services received rather than the type of local government opted for by a community.

Now _Air,port H~ights,which is that area bounded in the North by Windsor Lake and the South by Hunt's Lane, on the West by Pippy Park, and on the East by the Airport, has been very active recently in petitioning for some sort of local government •. Government I has decided that community council status is not desirable or certainly is not the correct form of local government for this urban area. And as I see it now, this community has four options; one is to remain as they are under the Metro Board or the proposed regional council with a representation on this council.

Two, either to opt for amalgamation w-ith St. John's , and again I see this not as a taking over of this community by St. John's but a co~in~ t~e~thP.~ to work out their mutual problems. A town council status would be number three, but without a stronger commerical tax base, I, myself, do not think this would be particularly desirable. A rural district council, there is a possibility that this may be the answer there. --- --------- ---------- -· - ------- 1~20

February 24, 1977 Tape 553 PK - 2 Dr. WINSOR: .. _It is more for small communities in a particular area, and possibly in the Airport Heights region this certainly should be considered~ where the councillors are elected on sort of a ward system rather than at large as in a town council. It has the same authority to collect taxes and to institute property taxes as a town council. Water and sewer services seem to be in the cards for this area in the near future. A trunk sewer to service tha Northeast area, including Wedgewood Park, Virginia Park, and the Airport and Airport Heights should be started next year.

Plans have just about been completed, and certainly, I think, in the next year or two that we will see effective beginning of work on this particular water and sewer system. A new service road recommended by the St. John's Urban Regional Study and previous reports , this will take traffic from the built up area of Portugal Cove Road s~arting at Bel~s Turn, sweeping in by the Airport, and then joining Portugal Cove Road just beyond Roncalli ~chool, and this has been very badly needed for the last few years. This survey also has been completed and work on this road should start within the next year or two.

Water I would be going to this area probably at about the same time, I understand, as the sewer services are installed. The Airport -we have heard about this recently. There is to be a major expansion over the next five years '. ,culminat~:_~!!-~he large terminal which should be about four or five years in the future. But ·the Department of Transport has an extensive- plan pretty well finalized for the Airport, and certainly it will have quite an effective on the area of Airport Heights.

There should be many opportunities to discuss this area with the citizens group and the citizens over the next few months, and I am sure we will arrive at a reasonable solution. Now to correct a few statements made by my hon. friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) in a speech on February 14, he states, 1521.

February 24, 1977 Tape no. 554 Page 1 - mw. D.r • Winsor. "I think the denturists charge a . ten per cent increase in their fees ·, and the denturists" - in British Columbia - "nobody knows how much they charge. Probably the sky is the limit." I have had the opportunity, -Mr. Speake~ of checking -myself, and these are -the facts; Dental mechanics in British Columbia have contracts with .the _ go~ernment,as do the dentists,to supply dentures for the social welfare programme. Outside of this programme the dental mechanics do not have a fee guide.

It is understood that they charge what traffic will bear,so their fees fluctuate. There have been cases documented in British Col~bia by the ~al~ board which show that denturists have charged over $300 for an upper and lower denture. - . In Nova Scotia,fees of the denturists approximate · those of the dentist. Now the only published fees of denturists I could get was from Alberta, and this is the 1977 published fees of denturists. The standard upper is· $156.60 and the standard lower $156.60 • So and upper and lower set costs the public $313.20. MR. NEARY: What would be the cost in Newfoundland? DR.

WINSOR: The suggested fee in Newfoundland for a standard upper and a lower is $82.00, plus laboratory charges. ' It is the suggested fee schedule. In 1975 - it has not changed since then. There is no fee

schedule per se. It is· a suggested ' fee

schedule for new dentists coming in