Manitoba Hansard — 22 June 1989 (Sitting 25, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-25

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, June 22, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a ministerial statement. An Honourable Member : Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: Order , please. Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Apparently, there have not been enough copies for the critics in this particular area . Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker , I apologize for not having enough copies for the House. I had enough for the critics .

The item that I wish to table is an order to HBM&S smelter at Flin Flon, an order which was issued this morning under the Director of Environmental Control, the Department of Environment . The order deals with a number of concerns which have been raised with the emissions from the smelter and their possible impact on the quality of the environment and health of the citizens of Flin Flon . It deals with three areas. First of all, the company is required to reduce the levels of fugitive emissions to meet the provincial air quality objectives .

Secondly, they are required, in consultation with the community, to put in place an early warning system for the Flin Flon area which will provide notice of unusual weather cond itions which may result in the buildup of emissions which could cause health concerns. Thirdly , the company is required to prepare a contingency plan to deal with plant malfunctions which would lead to fugitive emissions. *

(1335) The order results from ongoing discussions with the community and the company and reflects the concern that our Government has for the health of citizens. Concerns with emissions are not new in the Flin Flon area , Mr. Speaker. When this matter was raised about a year ago in the House, it was difficult to deal with because there was no objective data available. The monitoring of air quality had been discontinued by the former administ ratio n in 1987, and the single monitor of the company was out of order.

My predecessor had the department re-establish a state-of-the-art air quality monitoring station within the town, which gives immediate readings to us on the 811 situation. Further, the company is ordered to upgrade its one station and add two more in order to monitor the quality of the air on an ongoing basis. Because of these actions, we were able to substantiate the concerns raised this spring, and as a result I wrote to the company asking for a plan to deal with the increasing problem of fugitive emissions .

The episode earlier this week resulted from climatic conditions and underlines the need for a contingency plan . This order and the steps which have been taken earlier underline our commitment to working with communities and industries to ensure that we protect our environment adequately. Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): I would like to say, first of all, that this order from the ministry of Environment is appreciated. I think it is a step in the right direction. I think the restoration of the monitoring program, which was eliminated a couple of years ago, is overdue .

I am also glad to see the participation of the company involved in the monitoring directly, as well as the Department of Environment. I think that is a correct step. The interesting thing is that the weather has not changed , the weather patterns, the characteristics of weather in the Flin Flon and immediate area, nor has the nature of the plant changed. I would have liked to see this Government move sooner on it, but then again we did not see much action by the previous administration, to say the least . In fact, monitoring equipment was removed. The issue of this plant though, Mr.

Speaker, is pollution controls that are required. Yes, for sulphur dioxide but, yes, for also other emissions out of the plant. I hope this Government will be striving to work in co-operation with the firm, HBM&S, and the federal Government in the putting in of the much, much needed plant modernization. I think what we need here is a close monitoring, not just of monitoring equipment watching things, but monitoring with eyes and ears of departmental inspection staff . I think what we need here is not crisis management but management of the environment.

We will on this side be encouraging this Government to take more and further actions on this matter . Thank you. Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): I am pleased that the Minister has seen fit to take action. I know that the people of Flin Flon have been looking for this kind of action for some months. Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that the problem the residents of Flin Flon have been experiencing has been worsening for the last year only, and result from two failings of this Government. One is to enforce the ambient air quality in the City of Flin Flon and the

Thursday, June 22, 1989 surrounding area , to enforce regulations that HBM&S should be required to live up to . The second of course is that now, a year and a half later, the negotiations for the modernization, which would have solved most of these problems , are floundering and seriously floundering .

I want to say as well that, despite the intention s outlined in the Minister 's statements, there are still some shortcomings with respect to obligations that the previous Minister undertook , that this Minister has undertaken, to inform the people of Flin Flon in detail of the nature of the elements which float continuously through the community of Flin Flon and the surrounding area, to insist that they be informed not only of the changes in weather patterns which might precipitate unhealthy conditions, but what is in that material which may pose a health threat . Mr.

Speaker , it has to be more thorough than simply a monitoring of the sulphur dioxide emissions and a reference of those emissions to the people of Flin Flon . They also have a right to know what additional materials they may be dealing with and what impact that might have on their lives and the health of their families . This is a first step . It is overdue by some months . The real problems in Flin Flon are not going to be resolved unt il this Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr.

Neufeld) gets off his hands and starts to negotiate on behalf of the people of Flin Flon, for Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting , for the Province of Manitoba . The deal should have been closed a year ago . *

(1340) Hon; Gerrie Hammond (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the 1988 Annual Report of the Manitoba Civil Service Superannuation Board . INTRODUCTION OF BILL BILL NO. 32-THE CITY OF WINNIPEG AMENDMENT ACT Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing) introduced, by leave, Bill No. 32, The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Ville de Winnipeg . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior · to oral questions, may I direct Honourable Members ' attention to the gallery where we have 32 students from the St. Matthew Elementary School in Saskatoon , Saskatchewan, under the direction of Mel Revet. Also, this afternoon from the Robert H. Smith Elementary School, we have twenty-five Grade 5 students under the direction of Carlotta Kulpak . This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Selkirk (Mrs . Charles) .

From the Southwood Elementary School , we have forty-four Grades 5 to 8 students under the direction of Richard Krahn . This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Penner) . 812 From the Cross Lake School, we have fifty Grade 6 students under the direction of Judy Halcrow . This school is located in the const ituency of the Honourable Member for Rupertsland (Mr. Harper) . From the Woodlands Colony School , we have thirty Grades 1 to 8 students under the direction of Alexis Einarson .

This schoo l is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Harry Enns). On behalf of all Honour able Members , I welcome you here this afternoon . MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Hon. Edward Connery (Minister responsible for The Workers ' Compensation Act): Mr. Speaker, I r ise on a question of privilege. Tuesday last, the Member for Selkirk (Mrs . Charles) attributed certain statements dealing with Work ers Compensation claim delays to the Office of the Provinc ial Ombudsman . On June 21, the Ombudsman, Mr.

Gordon Earle, wrote my office and stated the following : "This letter is to confirm that while our office has expressed concern to the Workers Compensation Board about delays in cases being heard and decisions rendered, we have mad e no report nor statements compar ing the operation of the Board under the current administration with the operation of the Board under the previous administration ." Mr.

Speaker , the Ombudsman 's office is an independent arm's length servant of the Legislative Assembly and should not be used by any Member in an attempt to legitimize comments made in this House of a crass political nature . I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay), that the Member for Selkirk (Mrs . Charles) apologize to the Office of the Ombudsman and the Members of this House for putting in question the impartiality of the Office of the Ombudsman, and I would table the letter from the Ombudsman, Mr. Speaker . MOTION presented. Mr.

Speaker: I will permit limited and strictly relevant debate concerning whether or not the matter has been raised at the earliest opportunity and a prima facie case of privilege of the House has been presented . Mr. Reg Alcock (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would ask that you take this under advisement, that you review Hansard . I think the statements made by the Member for Selkirk (Mrs . Charles) were entirely appropriate. She was bringing forward to this House information that all Members in this House have been provided relative to the performance of the Workers Compensation Boar d.

I think that a number of us have been raising this concern over and over and over again privately, as was requested, and seeing the situation deteriorate . I thi nk the statements that the Member for Selkirk (Mrs .

Thursday, June 22, 1989 Charles) made were consistent with information that we have received. I think that the role of the Ombudsman is to investigate concerns raised by this House . The remarks that she attributed were resulting from conversations she has had with that office . I do not think it is either a matter of privilege or inappropriate for this Member to be raising those things. •

(1345) Mr. Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, in taking this matter under advisement, I wou ld certainly point to Beauchesne 's Citation 31, which states quite clearly that a dispute arising between two Members as to allegations of facts does not fulfill the conditions of parliamentary privilege . I raise that point because I do not thi nk that there is any doubt in anybody's mind that the waiting period for workers comp ens ation is increased . About the only person in this province who does not rea lize that is the Minister respons ible for Workers Compensation (Mr. Connery). Mr.

Speaker , if the Minister responsible for Workers Comp ensatio n (Mr. Connery) wishes to insist on saying that Members should go on tou rs of the facility and that is sufficien t in terms of dealing with the problems facing injured workers, that is his business. I would suggest that he not waste the time of this House over what is clearly a dispute of facts, a dispute of facts I might say that we, in the New Democratic Party, know clearly is the fact that there is an increased waiting period.

I would really suggest that we get on with the proper business of this House, and not deal with this rather frivolous matter of privilege. Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, when the matter involves the Office of the Ombudsman, in no way could it be considered a frivolous question of privilege . I will read into the record the exact comments made by the Honourable Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Charles) in a moment. Let me say this is the first opportunity the Honourable Minister has had to raise this matter in the House. The comments made by the Honourable Member for Selkirk (Mrs.

Charles) are as follows: "Can the Minister, therefore, explain why the provincial Ombudsman's office and the Injured Workers Association say that under this Government delays are even worse than before?" Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. I would like to thank all Honourable Members for their advice. This is quite a lengthy letter that we have received from the Ombudsman. I will have to peruse Hansard and the information that has been made available to me. I, therefore, take this matter under advisement and I will report back to the House. ORAL QUES TION PERIOD Federal Sales Tax Revenue Neutral Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Finance Minister (Mr. 813 Manness) did not seem to have any idea as to what his jurisdiction and responsibility were with regard to the national sales tax. Yet he made the statement in this House that he would prefer that the national sales tax be visible in this province. My question to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) today is, what does he intend to do to ensure that this tax be revenue neutral in the Province of Manitoba? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker , contrary to the

preamble of the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs . Carstairs) , I was not unclear as to my view on the national sales tax of the federal Government as a federal Government init iative , and they are ultimatel y responsible for their tax . What I was a little uncertain was as to where in the Con stitution it was provided that Manitoba would have some say over the app lication of a federal tax. Mr.

Speaker , I must indicate that we have searched through the Constitution of Canada and there is an area that says: "An expression of a tax is a matter of commercial law which is in provincial jurisdiction." What officials in my department have been doing through yesterday and through today is trying to find out how it is that the federal Government, the federal Department of Finance , on the basis of that reference within the Constitution of Canada, is somehow suggesting that Manitoba somehow should make a decision as to how the federal sales and goods tax is applied.

Let me say clearly to the Member, our objectives with respect to the federal goods and services tax which is a federal tax, and I reiterate that again, is that we protect but not enhance-and again, I say protect, not enhance-our own sales tax revenues, and that we see implemented to the extent that we have any say a system which is fair and easily understood by consumers and business operators in the Province of Manitoba. Provincial Sales Tax Reduction Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a supplementary question to the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness), if he is stating today clearly that this tax is to be revenue neutral, will he guarantee to the taxpayers of the Province of Manitoba that he will reduce our sales tax in this province in order to make it revenue neutral if the federal tax is cascaded and is not listed as a separate item? •

(1350) Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): See, Mr. Speaker, what has happened here, based on all the ifs and all the suppositions by the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs), is the belief that their analysis somehow indicating that Manitoba is going to receive $40 million additional taxation is correct. Again, the research done by somebody in the Liberal Party is completely wrong , because the Liberal Party

Thursday, June 22, 1989 has failed to take into account the fact that the 12 percent sales tax on manufactured goods , now to become 13.5 percent, is going to be reduced to 9 percent. We put tax on tax on top of that and bring in $35 million. There will be a significant reduction in the area of Manitoba sales tax within that area . The Member also forgets that with the application of the new federal sales tax that $300 million in additional taxation will probably be removed from Manitoba and that will affect our economy . . .. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please.

I would like to remind the Honourable Minister that answers to questions should be as brief as possible . Cascading Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): The question is relatively simple . If a 9 percent tax is built in, the Government of this prov ince will reap additional benefits. If it is placed on top, they will not reduce . Can the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) tell this House if it is the policy of his department that they will not place provincial tax on top of federal tax? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance) : You see, Mr. Speaker, this is the problem .

The Liberals do not understand that 13.5 percent is the rate that is built in today. We are taxing on top of that , and we are bringing upwards of $35 million today and by way of provincial sales tax cascaded , to use her terms , on the 13.5 percent rate . That is going to be reduced to 9 percent. That represents a loss of revenue, not $40 million extra. Mrs. Carstairs: But the Finance Minister (Mr.

Manness) is not being totally clear with the people of this province , because many new services will be afforded and will be taxed that have never been taxed before , many new services, and everyone in this country admits that except our Minister . Mr. Speaker , why will this Finance Ministe r not tell the taxpayers of Manitoba today that they will be protected against this erosion , and it is an erosion , of federal tax into the Province of Manitoba and that they will not double tax these people? Mr. Manness: I cannot make it any clearer.

I said our objectives are to protect-that means there could be a loss-protect but not enhance the revenue that Manitoba receives through the implementation of a national sales tax . But just like the Leader of the Opposition indicated that she did not understand the fact that the rates on the manufacturing goods are going down from 13.5 percent to 9 percent, let me also say that the provincial economy is probably going to lose $300 million which is going to impact on th e corporate and personal tax rates.

So one cannot and the Government canno t make a judgment easily on the basis of some pure arithmetic supposedly used by the Members opposite . Indeed, you have to take into account all of thes e thi ngs, but 814 again it will be a revenue-neutral tax . We will not be taking out any more by way of cascading . That is the commitment to the peop le of Manitoba . Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, with a new question to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), you know we have some difficulties with Tories because federal Tories have been saying a long time that this is to be a revenue neutral tax.

Now we have a Finance Minister who says, well , maybe it is going to be a revenue-neutral tax- An Honourable Member : He did not. Mrs. Carstairs: He said, maybe . He also said , as the economy goes up, well , we may not give those benefits back to the people of this country- -(Interjection)- the federal Min ister of Finance . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Reduction Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The simple question is, will this Min iste r guarant ee to reduce provincial sales tax if it becomes essential to cascade the tax in the Province of Manitoba as decreed by the federal Gove rnmen t? *

(1355) Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker , I do not even have to answer that question . There were three " ifs " that I heard in that statement, but I will say this to the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs . Carstairs), my statement stands. It is the same statement that I made in this House last fall when we were in Session . I said this would be revenue neutral to the Provinc e of Manitoba . That stands. I say today, as I stand in my place , that we will not enhance our revenue from this .

For the Leader of the Opposition to believe that the argument, from her point of view, is so simple to believe that we are going to receive $40 million , she is wrong , wrong , wrong , Mr. Spe ake r, because in essence as the rate is going down from 13.5 percent to 9 percent , we are losing $22 million on th at side. So let her not try to get this Governmen t today to say that it is going to prov ide some rate below the 7 percent rate to offset something else , because they do not understand the basis of the application of either rate. Mrs. Carstairs: My fina l supplement ary question , Mr.

Speake r, and the 9 percent will go on , and on , and on, and on to services and products that have never been taxed before . Finance Minister Federal/Prov incial Meeting Mrs . Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): A final question to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) , will this Min ister tell us when he will meet with the

Thursday, June 22, 1989 federal Minister of Finance to make sure that the rule s affecting Manitoba, the rules he did not know anything about yesterday, will be clearly spelled out and the people of this province will be clearly informed? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): There are so many errors in the

preamble . The 9 percent ta x is not our tax , it is the federal Government's . We do not apply any tax against services in the Province of Manitoba, so the Member is trying to, in my view at least, confuse the issue . With respect to Manitoba 's rules, Manitoba is trea ted no different ly than any oth er province. The Constituti on of Canada applies to all the provinces . With respect to our officials coming together , Mr. Speaker, we are doing that on an hourly basis. I certainly will be meeting with the federal Minister of Finance on this issue and other issues , believe me.

But before that is necessary, let us find out , let us remove some of the confusio n as provided by the announcement in Ottawa yesterday. Environmen t Act City of Winnipeg Compliance Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings). In 1987, this Legislature passed a new Environment Act which was proclaimed Marc h 31, 1988. Along with many other advancements in that Act, and many of them long overdue even in 1987, was the removal of the exemption for the City of Winnipeg.

That is there was a phase- in period of about nine months to March 31, 1988 , dealing with the City of Winnipeg , the largest community in our prov ince, to have the full implementation of the Act in place.

Unfortunately, through last year's questions, we were not able to get the implementation of The Environment Act with the former Minister, and we were absolutely shocked when this House rose last December that shortly thereafter we had a bureaucratic committee set up between the province and the city to negate the effect of The Environment Act, to negate the licensing requirements, to negate the water requirements, to negate the ability of people to have public hearings .

My question to the Minister of Environment is, why has he not brought th at Act in its full force with the City of Winnipeg as part of his responsibilities as our Environment Act? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, we are actively working towards that end. Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker , we know that the City of Winnipeg, the old Gang of 19, the Liberal-Tory coalition , opposed the new Environment Act , did so publicly . (lnterjection)- If you will check Hans ard of July of '87, you will find it. We know that the old gang opposed The Environm ent Act . We know the . .

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Wolseley, on a point of order . 815 *

(1400) Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Yes, Mr. Speaker , on a point of order . The Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) from his place says , where was Harold Taylor, in response to the misinformation from the Member for Concordia about people opposing The Environment Act. I would like that Member to come clean on th is and state who voted against it. I do not recall voting .. . Mr. Speaker : Ord er, please; order, please. A dispute over the facts , as the Honour abl e Member knows, is not a point of order. There is no point of order. The Honourabl e Member for Concordia. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I did say that the Gang of 19, the Liberal and Tory coalition members at City Hall did oppose it, and I did not thin k the Member for Wolseley would be so sensit ive that he would have to stand in his place.

My question to the Minister of Environment, does he not think that two years is sufficient period of time for the City, our largest municipality , to comply with The Environment Act so that citizens dealing with water issue , sewage issues , sewage treatment issues, snow disposal , bridge construction and the other matters that other citizens have rights in the environment, would be covered fully under The Environment Act? Why is this Government kowtowing to the old Gang of 19 at City Hall and not implementing the full Environment Act? Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Speaker, there is a broad list of accusation in that statement from the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) . I am not sure who he thinks that I or this Government would kowtow to but frankly, Mr. Speaker, as I have said in my first answer, we are working towards bringing the city into compliance with The Environment Act. I think that he, along with everyone else in this House, would accept the fact that there is a certain realistic ability to conform to guidelines, and the city has been co-operating of late. Implementation Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): I would ask the Minister what legislative or legal authority does he have to not implement The Environment Act in the City of Winnipeg? What authority is he using to establish the bureaucratic committee with the city in not having citizens have rights that were passed by this Legislature? How can a Government circumvent this Legislature? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, there are occasions when to impose the ultimate strength of the law would put reason at jeopardy, frankly.

If we consider, for example, some of the very large undertakings that will have to be taken by the city, I think it is reasonable that we approach this through discussion and agreement, and we will very quickly make sure that we have an agreement that brings them underneath the Act .

Thursday, June 22, 1989 Mr. Spealter: The Honourable Member for Concordia , with his final supp lemen tary question . Mr. Doer: The Minister has just admitted that the City of Winnipeg is breaking The Environment Act, Mr. Speaker, and the Min ister is in complicity with the city doing that. Does the Minister not realize that The Environment Act can be law and implemented in such a way that the city can get licences for many of the big projects? It could have got licences a year ago for many of those projects. That is not contrary to the Act.

The licences can be granted , the public hearings can take place and this bogus argument about complicity with the City of Winnipeg is absolutely not relevant in terms of the 600 ,000 citizens in Winnipeg . Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, we are actively working towards that end. I suggest that the Member is not keeping in mind the reality of imposition of the law. Victim Assistance Funding Delays Mr. Paul Edwards (Edwards): Mr. Speaker , my question is for the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) . Grass-roots victims ' groups are being starved out in this province .

This Government has politicized funding in yet another community-based initiative area . Recommendations for funding for various victims ' groups from the Victims Assistance Committee went to Treasury Board in early April of th is year, and since that time not one penny has been paid out to a victims ' group in this province .

My question is, will the Minister stop saying one thing and doing another , and immediately spea k to his Treasury Board counterparts to get funding going again for victims' groups in this province, which sprang up very recently out of an initiative that was started in this province , which was unique in Canada, and which has led to these grass -roots community groups springing up? Now they are being starved out . Why? Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General) : The Honourable Member is wrong again , Mr. Speaker .

Victims ' groups in Manitoba are not being starved out , as the Honourable Member would put it. If the Honourable Member had his way, there would be no money left in the fund and he and his colleagues would not care how the money was being spent, and then victims in this province would be starved out in terms of funding assistance for them . Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, these are not my recommendations, these are recommendations of the Victims ' Assistance Comm ittee , a committee set up of experts and victims to deal with those funds - not me, not that Minister. That Minister is now in control of these funds.

Victim Assistance Committee Politicization Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): A supplementary question , one of these groups is the Mother Earth Group in Brandon, ano ther is the Victims' Services Unit sponsored by the Brandon Police Department. Will this Minister not stand up for vict ims throughout Manitoba and victims ' groups in his community and stop this blatant politicization of a fund that belongs to victims? Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): If the Honourable Member has an accusation to make , let him be specific about it. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable for St. James (Mr.

Edwards), with a final supplementary question. Mr. Edwards: Specific , I can get . The fact is that victims ' funds are being held up by this Government. Victims' funds -(lnterjection)- A supplementary for the same Ministe r, Mr. Spea ker, victims ' groups are going the way that the lntercultural Council went, the way that the Law Reform Commission went. This Minister is presiding over that process . Victim Impact Statement 816 Recommendations Mr. Paul Edwards (St.

James) : My final question , has this Government yet, a year after receiving the evaluation report on the Victim Impact Statement project , come to any conclusion as to the validity of this projec t and whether or not it should be an ongoing funded project under the Victims ' Assistance Committee? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The Victim Impact Statement project is a project not just involving the Province of Manitoba, so that we cannot act totally on our own on that matter .

I would like to ask the Honourable Member to be clear about what he means by politicizing the Victims ' Assistance Committee. Would the Honourable Member please expl ain what he means by politicizing the Victims ' Assistance Committee? Core Area Initiative Renewal Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker , my question is for the Mini ste r of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme). In March of 1991, the mandate of the Core Area Initia tive project will run out.

Since co-operation between the federal and provincial Governments is at best aggravating and conti nues to be so, there is reason to be concerned about the federal Government's commitment to the revitalization of down town Winnipeg . Just last week, the federal Minister resp ons ibl e said that he would only consider negotiating a renewa l to the core if it was a top priority of this Government. My question to the Minister is simple . Is renewal of the Core Area Initiative a priority of his Government ,

Thursday, June 22, 1989 and has he had any conversations yet with the federal Minister? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, first of all, it was this Government under Sterling Lyon, under the Honourable Member, Gerry Mercier, who was involved in the original Core Program. It was not only Mr. Mercier however but myself as a member of City Council was involved in the original Core Area Program , ongoing negotiations, always with the federal Government. We do meet policy , we do meet with the other partners and shareholders and that is still going on.

As he has suggested, that particular program will not be finished until 1991 and the funds can flow until 1992. Mr. Carr : The re was no reference in the answer to the priority his Government places on renewal of the core . Winnipeg Revitalization Initiatives Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): With a supplementary quest ion , we now know tha t there will be addition al suburban developments taking away more and more from the centre of our city. We now have 250,000 square feet of commercial space which has been approved in the southwest portion of the city.

My question for the Minister is, what does he intend to do to stop the hemorrhaging of the core of the downtown of this city, and what specific steps can he announce to this House? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): If the individual across the way would pull out the latest Core Program on the enhancement , look at all the building and all the structures throughout the Core Program, look at that and then come back and suggest that these three shareholders did not co-operate in developing the downtown core . Core Area Initiative Public Hearings Mr.

James Carr (Fort Rouge): With a final supplementary to the Minister, any renewal of the Core Area Init iative will require a detailed assessment of the successes and the failures , running up to 1991. Does the Minister intend to hold public hearings , and just what process will he ensure is undertaken to make sure that the people of Winnipeg have the best opportunity to express their opinions? •

(1410) Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): The three sha rehol ders have met and will continue to meet at policy in determining the assessment of the present core and the previous core programs. At that time, at the assessment and if we evaluate it, then we will go and make that decision. 817 Air Ambulances Access Policy Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Acting Minister of Health (Mr. Derkach).

Can the Acting Minister of Health indica te why this Government has chosen to follow a policy which allows medical staff, rather not medical staff but staff of the Department of Health, to override decisions of physicians to transport patients by emergency evacuation from northern Manitoba and, in their doing, jeopardize lives and put the health and safety of individuals in jeopa rdy? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): In order that the Member for Flin Flon may receive a thorough answer to that, I will take that answer under advisement and have the Minister of Health report back. Mr.

Storie: A follow-up question, perhaps the Minister could also indicate why a constituent of mine by the name of Orla Czettisch with a serious blood disorder , after a request by her physician to transport this patient immediately to the Health Sciences Centre corroborated by a resident at the Health Sciences Centre, was denied access to the air ambulance in a move which the doctor indicates was a serious shortcoming and seriously jeopardized this woman's life? Mr.

Derkach: I respect the serious nature of that question , and certainly I would be pleased to take that question as notice for the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). Mr. Storie: A final question to the Deputy Premier (Mr. Cummings), Mr. Speaker, this is not the first incident of a life-threatening nature. Some months ago, a similar case where a blood disorder- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Does the Honourable Member have a question? Would you kindly put your question now? Mr. Storie: -a similar case.

Will the Deputy Premier assure the people of northern Manitoba, the people of Flin Flon, that this Government is not sacrificing a valued medical evacuation service, not sacrificing it to save money, not sacrificing it for the convenience of medical staff , staff in the Department of Health and- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please ; order, please. There is a question there. The Honourable Acting Minister of Health. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker , I would certa inly be happy to take that question as notice for the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard), because I do think that he is the one who shou ld probably come back with the complete answer to the Member for Flin Flon.

Thursday, June 22, 1989 VIA Rail Usage Mr. Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, preliminary statistics from VIA Rail for the first three months of 1989 indicate that there has been an increase in usage of 36 percent. Canadians have responded to the Prime Minister 's call to use it or lose it by indeed using it. Can the Minister of Transport ati on (Mr. Albert Driedge

r) tell us today what is he going to do to ensure that we do not lose VIA Rail in Manitoba? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highway s and Transportation): Mr. Speaker , first of all, it is not with in my jurisdiction or responsibility to make a decision on that . However, from the time that the first reports came out on VIA Rail, I wrote the federal Minister of Transport indicating our concern and hoping that he would look at all alternatives . The indications are that no decisions will be made until the report is coming down.

At that time, we will have a chance to look at the impact that it will have on Manitoba, and then we will continue to make our representation on behalf of the people of Manitoba . Federal/Provincial Meeting Mr. Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): Can this Minister tell this House if he will lobby the Minister of Transpor tation in Ottawa to secure a commitment from VIA that Manitoba is going to be secured the services from VIA Rail? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker , it is precisely what I have been doing and will continue to do. Port of Churchill Grain Shipments Mr.

Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): My final supplementary to the same Minister , Mr. Speaker, we have heard that grain will be shipped through Churchill this summer. When will the first shipment be loaded at Churchill in 1989? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker , based on the much publicized trip of some people from this province to see the federal Minister of Transport as well as the Minister responsible for the Wheat Board and the letter that was made reference to, maybe I could table the letter . I would like to read it. It says, " Dear Mr.

Richford : Thank you very much for yours of May 24. As usual, you have given thi s subject a very thorough analysis . I shared your letter with my colleagues , as well as those in our marketing

section . We expect to do some business in Churchill this year. It may not be as large a quantity as we would all like, but maybe more than some seem to expect. All of this is, of course , depending on a number of factors ." 818 Mr. Speaker , there is no firm commitment. We are lobbying and we hope all Manitob ans are lobbying with us to try and see whether we can get some grain through the Port of Chu rchill. Health Care Northern Staff Shortages Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) , and it is in regard to the growing crisis in the health care system in northern Manitoba . Mr. Speaker, those are not my words , those are the words of the admin istrators, the boards and the staff of many healt h care facilities in the North . In The Pas, there are 10 general practitioners instead of the 16 that are requir ed . In Thompson, there are five, as compared to the 13 or 14 that we had two years ago, but is the bare minimum number to serve the popula tion area. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) what action this Government is takin g to ; deal with this critical shor tage of general practitione rs across northern Manitoba . Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I regret that I do not have the news rele ase here with me, but I know that yesterday the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) made an announcemen t specifically addressing that concern, a concern that we all share, that people in this province , regardless of where they live, ough t to have access to competent med ica l assistance and medical treatment.

One of the great concerns of course that has been there, and was there during the term of office of the former NDP Government, was the fact that we did not have enough practitioners there .

So the Minister announced a $400 ,000 special program of providing incentives for doctors to be practising in rural Manitoba , an opportunity for doctors from outside the country to have their credentials approved on a much more expedient basis so that they could be practising in rural and northern posts , and other initiatives such as the reconstitution of a new Standing Committee on Medical Manpow er, including doctors from rur al and northern Man itoba, with the specific mandate to ensure that we address that problem by bringing more doctors into rural and remote areas of our province to ensure that people everywhere in this province get a standard of health care -that all of us believe in.

Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker , in Thompson there was not a shor tage until just this past year, so the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) should not try and politicize the very serious problem . Thompson General Hospital Anesthetist Shortage Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): But I would like to ask the Minister, in light of his answer, why the First Minist er (Mr. Filmon) has rejected the urgent request of the board of the hospi tal in Thompson for this First Minister and the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard ) to

Thursday, June 22, 1989 intervene to prevent the loss of the anaesthetist who is losing his qualificat ion in Thompson because of the stringen t requir ements of the College of Physicians and Surg eons , requirements that involve the fact that he has not had practice in community health , which is not relevant at all to his practice . Why has the First Minister and the Minister of Health refused to intervene to save the anaesthetist position in the Thompson General Hospital? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , you know I find it somewhat amusing that the Member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) is suggesting that I politicized the answer by referring to the fact that there have been shortages in this province in areas of medical manpower that have existed well before our Government cam e into office , but it is okay for him to ask a question implying that all of these problems are as a result of the electio n of this Government . That is absolu te nonsens e, Mr. Speake r. We are doing things which were never done by the fo rmer admi nistration.

I have listed some of the initiatives in my previou s a nswe r- the Standing Committ ee on Medica l Manp ower, the $400 ,000 of targeted assistance, the approval of people from out of the country with their medical qualifications getting certification here . All of thes e t hings are initiatives of this Government to address that very problem , and he ought not to stand here in this House and sugges t that this is a problem of this Government . This Gov ernment is providing the solution; his Government caused the problem , Mr. Speaker . Mr.

Ashton: There were 13 physicians in Thompson just over a year and a half ago. There are currently five . This Government has failed to- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The Honou rable Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) , with his final supplementary question. Mr. Ashton: I have a final question, since the First Minister has not answered my second question , and that is in regard to the serious- Mr. Speaker: Order , please. *

(1420) Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I realize that the First Minister does not have to answer questions . I only merely made men tion of the fact that he did not answer the question . Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The Honourable Member is quite aware of the fact that we do not make any comment or references to the fact , whether or not we receive an answer . That is totally out of order. Will the Honour able Mem ber for Thompson kindly put his final supplementary question? Maintenance Funding Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker, I have a further question to the Minister , and I hope he will 819 answer the quest ion. That is in regard to th e serious problems with both m aintenance and funding for staff and for capital resources , once again in the Thompso n General Hospital and throughout northern Manitoba. In view of the fact that the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) has refused to acknowledge the fact that a problem exists , will the First- Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order, please. The Honourable Member is going to put his question now? Mr. Ashton: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Put your question then, please . Mr.

Ashton: In view of that fact , Mr. Speaker, will the First Minister now respond to the very crying needs in the Thompson General Hospital , given the fact that they have filed a document with MHSC as of this week pointing to the need for major repairs to the Thompson Genera l Hospital, repairs that the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) has been denying are necessary? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , for the information of the Member for Thompson, in the last Budget that we passed in August of 1988, there was a projected increase of funding in health care well above inflation, well above 7 percent.

In this Budget that we have just passed last week, the increase in health care spending is again in excess of 7 percent . We are committing ourselves to $400,000 specifically targeted at getting medical practitioners into rural, northern and remote areas of this province . I will take the rest of his question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), so he can tell him the further responses to the specific question about the Thompson General Hospital. Boating Regulations Speed Limits Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, as a result of input to a public hearing on voting regulations, Winnipeg City Council last night passed its recommendations for this city's first set of boat speed limits. The speeds of 50 km night and 70 km day on the Red, and 10 km night and 37 km day on the Assiniboine require provincial concurrence before forwarding to the federal Government for inclusion in the Canada Shipping Act Regulations. Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme), will the Minister explain how his department will expedite the transmittal of the city 's requested boating regulation to the federal Government?

Also, will he confirm that the boat speed limits will be in place this summer , as is expected by City Council? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, first of all, it was this Government that suggested the 10-point plan last November. This particular Government also would make sure they passed on to City Council that public hearings be held . Due to some delay at the City Council level, the public hearings were not held until last week.

Thursday, June 22, 1989 We, along with the member from City Council who is in charge of the committee responsible, had written a letter just recent ly to the federal Government suggesting that these be tried to be put in place for '89 . We will do everything in our power on thi s s ide to suggest to the federal Government to have them in place for '89. The latest suggestion is they will not be in place for '89, by the federal Government. Rivers-Winnipeg Management Plan Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Mr_ Speak er, in the last two Throne Speeches, enhancement of Winnipeg rivers was emphasized.

When will this Minister finally announce a program, and I am not talking about the 10 points he just referenced, but a proper river management and river enhancement program with some meat to it so that Winnipeggers can see what his Department of Urban Affairs is initiating on this very important recreational and natural resource? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker , I am delighted that the Member across the way has taken notice of the Throne Speech . Yes, in the Throne Speech , we suggested -and I can say to him he will be delighted when we lay forward our plan . Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Memb er for Wolseley , with a final supplementary question . Mr. Taylor: Mr. Speaker, there are many lacks of activity by Government to assure the protection of Winnipeg 's rivers. We can talk about bank stabilization, pollution, hazards on the river. What is the Minister doing in the way of specifics in co-operation with the -(lnterjection) Thank you , Harry. What is the Min ister doing to encourage the co-operation and the act ivity of his colleagues in Cabinet to make certain there is a concerted all-Government initiative for the enhancement of those rivers? Mr.

Ducharme: Mr_ Speaker, to the Member across the way, I am sure he will be delighted when we bring forward our management on the river ways. We are in full co-operation with all Members of Cabinet dealing with this program when we bring it forward. I am sure he will like every part of it. Drought Assistance Payment Delay Mr. Bill Uruski (Interlake): Mr. Speaker , farmers of this province and of western Canada have been waiting for over a year or almost a year for payments that wer e announced by the federal Government for drought assistance.

The partial payments have been made to date . but there has been no word from them as to when the final payments will be made. I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) whether he has any word on this matt er from the federal Government because there are a number of federal-provincial agreements that have been moved 820 aside, and can he advise when farmers of western Canada will receive the benefit of the drought assistance program that was promised in November of 1988. Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): I can tell the Member the fastest information that we have is that the federal Government believe that they are on target with their announcement of the cheques going out in July of this year, the fin al cheques. I can tell him that the interim che ques that were mailed out put some $45 million of money into the pockets of Manitoba farmers , and the anticipated - and I will use the word "anticip ated" - final payment will put approximately another $125 million into the pockets of Manitoba farmers. Herd Retention Program Payment Plan Mr.

Speaker: The Honour able Member for the Interlake will have time for one very short question . Mr. Bill Uruski (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, on another federal-provincial agreement, I asked the Minister of Agriculture , dealing with the Herd Retention Program and the Feed Security Program . there is a dispute under way that the federal Government is not prepared to pay the legitimate claims of assessments made to farmers under the Feed Security Prog ram . Can the Minister indic ate whether farmers will be paid or will they have to wait or what will be the result of that dispute that is currently under way? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): I would also like to tell the Memb er that we have on two separate occasions written the federal Minister asking him to authorize the Crop Insuranc e Corporation to pay that additional money that should be going to lives tock producers under the Livestock Feed Security Program because of changes in the percent production figu res through a review committee that was put in place jointly by the federal-provincial Government. Unfortunate ly, I have to tell him at this point they have not conceded to that request.

They have continued to say no, it doe s not qualify, but we continue through telephone conversations and through communications at the staff level, to put our case forward . We do believe we will win the case and that will even tually happen but, at this point in time , they have not conceded yet. Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENTS Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, can I have leave to make an non-politic al statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave ? (Agreed) Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): Mr.

Speaker, it is with sadness that I rise to inform the House of the passing of Ron McBryde. Ron was diagnosed as having leukemia

Thursday, June 22, 1989 on May 22, and he passed away in Calgary in the Foot Hills Hospital yesterday. The former Member for The Pas served the Legislature from 1969 to 1981. He will be missed by his many friends in Manitoba and his wife and two children. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I may just have leave for a brief non-political statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Firs t Minister have leave? (Agreed) Mr. Filmon: On behalf of the Government caucus, many of whom sat with Mr.

McBryde in this Legislature , I might indicate that we share the sorrow and the sadness expressed by the Member for The Pas. We will suitab ly recognize Mr. McBryde's service at such time as the motions of condolence come forwa rd later this Session. Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, do I have leave to make a brief non-political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave? (Agreed) Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker , I would like , on beh alf of the Liberal caucus , to add our voice of condolence to the family of Mr. McBryde.

Although none of us sat in this Chamber with him , he was certainly known to many of us for his reputation. He was an outstanding Manitoban, and we wish the best for his family . We would like to join in the expression of condolences today . Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker , may I have leave to make a non -political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Selkirk have leave? (Agreed) •

(1430) Mrs. Charles: Continuing on the sad note , Mr. Speaker , I wish to stand today and invite others to express my deep sorrow and sadness at the events occurring in China with the continuing executions of students who stood for freedom and democracy . We who represent the essence of that through a free democratic process I think can appreciate as much as anyone the nerve and the heroism that took place to stand in defiance of an autocratic state.

I would wish to express to all citizens in our province of Chinese origin, to all visitors in the country as well, that we extend to them our sympathy and sorrow , as well to the families definite ly involved in th is circumstance. I would ask, on behalf of this Legislature , that perhaps we cou ld consider asking the country of Canada to extend all possible help to citizens wishing to stay in Canada for their protection , and most of all may we consider and take time in our day today to think of thos e who have sto od for freedom and are losing all they have for the essence of their cause . Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Yes, might I have leave to make a non-political statement? 821 Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? (Agreed) Mrs. Mitchelson: I want to add to the comments of the Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Charles) and indicate that I think all Members of this House - it does not matte r what political Party - have to be very thankful , Mr. Speaker, for the opportunity we have in this great country of ours, Canada, to speak out and say what we feel without any threat of being violently attacked in any way.

Our hearts have to go out in sympathy to those in other countries who are not as fortunate as we are to have the freedom to speak, the freedom of Assembly , the freedom of choice without any severe repercussions . We all shoul d join together and extend whatever we can, as a province and a country, to those in other countries that are less fortunate than we our sincere feelings , and any help that we can give as a country to ensure that they are safe when they are away from the country , that they should not have to be forced to go back to an unh ealthy and unstable situation.

We, on the Conservative side of this House, want to join with all Members I am sure to I suppose hope that things can improve. I sense that in China it is going to be a long time before they have the opportunity to experience wha t we do in this country. We want to extend and think about those kinds of things on a daily basis as we conduct our affairs. We can , as a matter of fact, agree to disagree on certain things and still live in harmony in this country and this province. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Yes, I would like to join-leave for a non-political statement, please . Mr.

Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave? (Agreed) Mr. Doer: I would like to add the voices of the New Democrats on this very important issue , Mr. Speaker . It is horrifying , to say the least , for all of us to have watched the last three weeks of events in China that has culminated in the beginning of a reign of terror that we know in our democracy not of, a reign of terror that had unilateral slayings , a reign of terror that had unilateral arrests, a reign of terror that is having unilateral trials , executions with very little right of appeal.

One would suspect , and hopefully it is not true, that it will continue on in a totalitarian way to attempt to expunge the light and extinguish the light of hope and democracy that was expressed in the world some month ago . Mr. Speaker, we join with the Chinese community in Canada and Manitoba and the students in this country in terms of support, but I also say in this House that we will have to evaluate very strongly as Canadian citizens our equal and measured response, in terms of our activity with the country of China.

I hope as we respond to the totalitarian action and the unilateral executions of people standing up for democracy that we are prepared as a country to put our principles first and our economic activity with China second, and that

Thursday, June 22, 1989 we are prepared to take a strong and unequivocal stand on this issue, as Canadians, because that is what we believe in, a democracy with rights. We do not believe in a totalitarian state with executions. We will have to speak with our principles, not just with resolutions and words . I would hope that we act in a measured way in dealing with this very, very unfortunate circumstance in our world . Thank you very much. Mrs. Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): May I have leave to make a non-political statement? Mr. Speaker : Does the Honourable Member have leave? (Agreed) Mrs.

Yeo: Following two such speeches of a very serious nature , I wonder if I could perhaps come on with a lighter vein. One of the most enthusiastic and energetic activities has been taking place in my constituency for the last couple of days, Mr. Speaker, and I am referring to the 55-Plus Games .

In discussing their involvement with the participants in these activit ies, many of them have said to me that they were very active little leaguers long, long ago , and after moving into the whirlwind of home and family and work activities, they had to relinquish some of their sporting activities , and their abilities seemed to suffer somewhat. They are saying that now they can move, once again with vim and vigour , now that their life has settled down somewhat and their home responsibilities are somewhat less, that they can move into these activities with a lot of vim and vigour.

The lift and the inspiration that I personally receive from these very busy, happy, active individuals certainly makes me look forward to the not too distant future. The base at Westwin is to be commended for providing such an ideal location for the games, a faci lity that enables both indoor as well as outdoor activities . Watching the runners, the dart throwers, the bowlers , the walkers , reminded me of my couple of years as a fitness instructor for a group known as Elderobics. It also reminded me of a quote by Ralph Waldo Emerson : " Nothing great is ever achieved without enthusiasm ." Thank you , Mr.

Speaker . COMMITTEE CHANGES Mr. Kevin Lamoureux {Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I have a committee change . I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Transcona (Mr. Kozak), that the composition of Standing Committee on Industrial Relations be amended as follows : the Member for St. Vital (Mr. Rose) for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) ; the Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) replacing the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) . Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I also have a committee change . I move, seconded by the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr.

Praznik), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Industrial Relat ions be amended as follows : Mccrae for Manness ; Driedger for Praznik. 822 ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Culture , Heritage and Recreation (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty . Mr. Speaker , Agricultu re in the Chamber ; Highways in the committee room.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transportation ; and the Honourable Member for Burrows (Mr. Chornopyski) in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture . *

(1450) CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION Mr. Chairman (Harold Gilleshammer): We will call this meeting to order to consider the Estimates of the Highways and Transport ation Department. We left off last day on No. 2. Operations and Maintenance, (

d) Bridges and St ructures :

(2) Other Expenditures , $95, 100-the Honourable Minister . Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Chairman, before we get into that , I had taken certain questions as notice, and I am prepared to table information for the critics . There was a question that was raised on the dust control treatment , calcium chloride versus lignum sulphate. I have that information here which indicates how much we have used. Also , I have on the second page , these conclusions and some recommendations that we have here. I would like to table one for each of the critics. Further to that, Mr.

Chairman , I also have information here which is dealing with the cost of implementing interprovincial weights and dimensions. Costs will be incurred in upgrading existing bridges on the system not able to carry the new inter provincial weights. I have some of that information and I would like to give a copy to each critic . I have two further pieces of information here , one dealing with private rentals . The information that I will be showing here indicates the amount of private rentals during the last five years . I will give a copy of that information to the critics involved.

The final piece of information that I h ave is information regarding the Department of Highways and Transportation ,

Summary of Consultants presen tly engaged by the department in Bridge Design and Evaluation Work. We have the consultant's name , the type of work performed and agreement completion dates. I would like to table those as well.

Thursday, June 22, 1989 Mr. Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): Mr. Chairman, before we go into Estimates , I would like to ask the Minister just one question . In his annual report, there is a

section which states Studies and Statistics

section . Does that come under Planning and Design? From what I could see in your book , Mr. Minister, it is, but I might be wrong . Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, the Member is correct. It comes under Planning and Design. Mr. Mandrake : I will start by asking the Minister what planning and design has his department put in place for the by-pass in Headingley? Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Just on a point of order. Mr. Chairman: The Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: Are we not dealing with Other Expenditures under Bridges and Structures? Mr. Chairman: Just for clarification , we are on 2.(

d) Bridges and Structures :

(2) Other Expenditures, $95,100 .00 . Mr. Plohman: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the Planning and Design comes as No. 3. We have to go through Transport Compliance, District Offices an d Other Jurisdictions yet , before we get there. Mr. Chairman: Maybe we could revert to Other Expenditures. Mr. Mandrake: Under Transport Compliance, could the Minister please explain the note,

(2) Recoverable from Canada, you have now a total expenditure of $2,142,900 .00. Does that include that $90,000 that is recoverable from Canada, or is that over and above? Mr. Chairman: I believe we are on another

section of the-we are on 2.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures. Mr. Mandrake: I thought everything was passed. Mr. Chairman: No, we are still on 2.(d)(2). Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairm an, I was just going to clarify for the Member that we had not dealt with Other Expenditures. I do not have a question on Other Expenditures. I have one on

(3) Bridge Maintenance. Mr. Chairman: Item 2.(d)(2)-pass. 2.(d)

(3) Bridge Maintenance, $863,000-the Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman , this is a rath er substantial amount . Is there any major work on bridges in this

section and, if not , what is the upper limit of expenditure on any one bridge in this $863,000.00? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, that figure represents basically maintenance, repairs on bridges , the sandblasting and painting of bridges, and we have 823 approximately 2,800 bridges in the province. There is an ongoing program of general repairs. The Member asked, what is the maximum that we would classify under repair before it is considered capital. I do not know wheth er there is specifically a range. By and large, construction or capital would be when we do a major undertaking.

This would basically deal with jus t general repairs. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman , for example, would you do redecking of a bridge under this section, or would that be under capital? Mr. Albert Driedger: I am told, Mr. Chairman, that is under minor structures we would do the decking. On major bridges that would be a capital undertaking . So there is sort of maybe a discretionary call when it would be, depending on I suppose the size of the bridge and the amount of work involved when we talk of decking.

But other than that , I think there is a little bit of leeway I assume in terms of when it is Maintenance and when it comes under the capital. Mr. Plohman: So that the only bridges that would be replaced or major work done on them would be in the Capital Program that we would see there . There is no other allowance or allocation of dollars for bridge, major repairs on bridges, or is there-repairs or replacement? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman , we have another $700 ,000 that we have under Maintenance, under Construction, but that is dealing with smaller bridges, under emergency situations where a bridge maybe goes down because of an accident, because of some fault , whatever the case may be. There is another pot of $700,000 that deals with those kinds of things. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, that was under the Maintenance

section of the $54 million Maintenance Program that we passed earlier? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman , no, the $700 ,000 is under the Capital Construction Program. Mr. Plohman: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: 2.(d)

(3) Bridge Maintenance, $863,000-pass. 2.(e)

(1) Transport Compliance: Salaries and Wages, $1 ,748,100-the Honourable Minister. Mr. Albert Driedger: I believe before the Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Mandrake) raised the question under this

section about the $90,000 recoverable, I want to indicate to him that is the federal portion of the National Safety Code costs. Mr. Mandrake: What I am trying to say is, is it included in the gross figure that you have listed in here, the $2 ,142,900, now with minus $90,000.00? It would be a lot less , would it not? *

(1500) Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman , I am not quite sure if I understand the question here.

Thursday, June 22, 1989 Mr. Mandrake: $2,142,900 is being expended, the total expenditure for the end of the year. Does that figure include the recoverable from Canada of $90,000 .00? Mr. Albert Driedger: I understand . The $2,142,900 , that is the full capital expenditure, and it includes the $90,000 .00. The $90,000 is then recovered and goes into general revenue . Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman , could the Minister indicate what portions of the National Safety Code remain to be implemented in Manitoba, whether any further legislative changes are required? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I would like to indicate to the Member that actually comes under a different

section . However, we will have a sheet prepared which will indicate various stages of implementation . There is no further legislation required to implement the National Safety Code. In fact , we are just in the throes of proclaiming as of July I further portions of the National Safety Code, and under the

section that deals with Driver Vehicle and Licensing , Mr. Coyle 's department. I will table the information on that to bring an update as to exactly where we are at with the National Safety Code. Mr. Plohman: The other area is the Weights and Dimensions Program . Is that now fully implemented in Manitoba and in all other provinces as well? If not , which ones have not, if the Minister has that information? What is the status of Manitoba 's implementation?

I also want to ask the Min ister how the discussions have proceeded with the City of Winnipeg with regard to the implementation of increased weight limits because of the changes that were made nationally? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, the Weights and Dimensions Program is implemented right now. However, we have until 1992 to make sure that we have all the roads and structures up to standard to be able to carry those kinds of weights . At that time , there would be no restrictions . We have certain construction that is under way right now in terms of bridges.

By 1990, we are supposed to be having no restrictions on any of these bridges . Mr. Plohman: I had also asked about whether other provinces are complying with this implementation date as well. I would like an answer on that. The Minister mentioned 1990 for provinces having all their designated routes up to par, up to standard . If that is not possible, it would seem with a major struc ture such as the one over Portage Avenue at the Perimeter , could the Minister elaborate on that? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, it is my understanding that what is meant by 1990 is that we would be able to handle the traffic so that there would not be a restriction on it. In the case where we have a potential problem like t he Portage West - am I correct?-that we would be able to route traffic in such a way that there would be no restriction on that. Mr. Plohman: So, Mr.

Chairman, what the Ministe r is saying is that on the sheet that he has given us, the 824 cost of implementing into provincial weights and dimensions, $9.65 million , that all of those particular projects listed will not be completed obviously by the end of the 1990 cons t ruction season, but other provisions will be made . The Minister is saying that he has been given additional time to actually get the work completed . Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, that is correct. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman , what about the impact on the City of Winnipeg? Where is that at?

I understand that there are a lot of structures that would be affected by this if they were to implement the higher weights in the City of Winnipeg . Has that been done? Has the City of Winnipeg now approved all of the changes that were approved by the Province of Manitoba? Are they going to apply to the City of Winnipeg? Are there going to be exemptions , or what is the status of that? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, first of all, let me indicate that there has been major concern expressed by the Manitoba Trucking Association in terms of the routing within the City of Winnipeg .

At the present time , we have the Perimeter around the city. There are certain routes designated which allow flowing of traffic from one industrial area to another , but they have to circumvent the structures in many cases. We are discussing with the City of Winnipeg and have not completed, but we are close to completion in terms of making an agreement , in terms of having the studies done as to which structur es will be able to carry certain weights so that possibly routes could be reschedu led .

There is a major concern by the city, but we have good dialogue going with them as well as with the Manitoba Trucking Association in terms of trying to alleviate the problem . However, I think the Member , having been involved in this himself, knows full well there are long-term implications in terms of, first of all, doing the study . Then if the structures are found to not be able to carry those weights , that is why the present system we are using whereby if we cut a pie of the city , that they have access to the Perimeter, can use our provincial routes to cut into a different area .

But at the present time , as the Member is well aware , they cannot necessarily use some of the bridge structures within the city limits . Mr. Plohman: I am aware of that and there is really a big problem there . That is one of the reasons why we wanted to have the implementation postponed until some of these things could be worked out , in Manitoba 's case particularly , because Winnipeg is a separate jurisdiction with regard to this. We cannot really deliver for the City of Winnipeg when we agree with the other provinces .

That could be rectified with legislation, of course , but there would also be the consequent political implicat ions of doing that . That means ther e are enormous additional costs that will be identified in these studies , in addition to the $9.6 million to the province as a whole or to the City of Winnipeg which is another jur isdiction within the province . Would there be any way of quantifying those costs at the present tim e and, if not , would they be determined from these studies?

Thursday, June 22, 1989 Secondly, at the present time , are there any serious log istical problems taking place because of this, with trucking firms having to offload at the Perimeter and so on , because they cannot bring in those loads that have been designated on our highways? *

(1510) Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, the Member asks for a figure as to what the costs would be to the city in terms of upgrading the structures. We are negotiating with the city right now in terms of the cost sharing to have that study undertaken . In the meantime , the unloading aspect of it is not necessa rily a problem at this stage of the game becaus e we have certa in routes where they can come into their main base . The problem that we have right now is the transportation inside the city from point to point.

I would like to indicate that we realize , I think everybody realizes what the problems are , the truck ing associ ation , the city, as well as ourselves as a province . We are having good dialogue and we think that we can come to agreem ents in terms of how these things should be done, in terms of cost sharing , which structures have to be considered , how we can do the routing . It is not going to be an overnight thing.

It is going to take a fair amount of time to be able to do that, but we are certainly trying to give every consideration to our trucking indust ry in terms of trying to make it easier for them, because our position is now as it was in the past , that we are very concerned about the impact of our transportation industry on the economy in Manitoba . We are trying to comply within reason as fast as we can in terms of making it easier for them . Mr.

Plohman: One last question on this, the Minister is insinuating , I would say, that the province is going to have to foot part of the bill for upgrading these routes and structures to meet these dimensions, these new weights and dimensions . I do not expect him to say that he is at this time, because that is a matter of negotiations and to what degree. I would think that is an area that the city will obviously expect the province to do so. I would wonder whether they have indicated that the basis for their discussions will be that there will be some cost sharing from the province? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman , that is why part of the negotiations that are tak ing place right now deal with the study itself. If we participate financially in this study, it could be conceived that we are committed to participate financially in the structures , and really that is not within our jurisdiction. This is why we are trying to find some common ground, because we do not feel that it is within our responsibility as a province to get involved in these kinds of commitments for their structures.

We have enough difficulty with our own , within the province, that we do not necessarily want to participate with some of the structure upgrading within the city. However, I might say that our discussions even with some of the other projects surrounding the city are positive . It is not an antagonistic kind of discussion that is taking place, we are working . 825 The Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Angus) just left , but he raised a question of Highway 75. There are various aspects of cost sharing and arrangemen ts that we are trying to work with them.

I have to indicate that the dialogue is relatively positive , the relationship is relatively positive . We are trying to make it work . Mr. Plohman: One additional question then, the national highways policy that is currently being pursued by the provinces , in which the Deputy Ministers are very much involved in this Province of Manitoba through the Minister who has expressed support , as I did and our Government did before, to try to get some fair sharing by the federal Government, I ask this at this time in this context.

If routes have been identified that would be cons idered cost shareable by the federal Government , and would that alleviate any of the cost burden that might take place as the results of the weights and dimensions increases in the City of Winnipeg? Mr. Albert Driedger: First of all, I should clarify this . The negotiations with the city in many cases take place through my colleague , the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme) . We have a committee there that is set up and they are doing most of the negotiations .

Further to the national highway route , we have an agreement between all the provinces in terms of an established route. That was Phase 1 and the federal Minister , I believe , has accepted that as well. Phase 2 now is to establish the costing, where the money is coming from, how each province has spent- Mr. Plohman: My question is- Mr. Albert Driedger: I am getting to the answer. I was just trying to give a little bit of background . . . go into this in detail. I am very excited about it.

However, under that program, there is no provision to address the shortcomings within the City of Winnipeg and their structures. An Honourable Member: There is. Mr. Albert Driedger: There is not . Mr. Plohman: Oh, okay. Thank you , Mr. Chairman. Mr. Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): In my travels, I have spoken to several truck drivers. They are informing me that there are a lot of carriers who are carrying dangerous goods on their vehicles and going through the weigh scales. They are not being inspected because they do not have the identification on the vehicle .

As per the regulation , are you supposed to have an identification on the front and the back? Mr. Albert Driedger: I believe it is part of our regulations that anybody carrying hazardous goods has to have them properly identified. If they are doing a sneak-in, our inspectors, when they do their inspections, are going to catch them . They will be dealt with accordingly. I would like to think though that the majority of our commercial truckers , especially who make their living

Thursday, June 22, 1989 at this, are very responsible. They know the weights, they know what the regulations are , and I do not think that too many of them would deliberately try and circumvent the regulations that are in place . Mr. Mandrake: On the same topic, Mr. Chairman , if there is, is there any criteria by the inspec to rs who check the trucks as they go through there randomly , or they only check when they have a suspicious feeling that the vehicle is not right or not carrying the proper commodity? Mr.

Albert Driedger: Under the National Safety Code that is in place, we will do our spot checks at random throughout the country. Nobody really knows when they will be stopped and checked on this thing. I have to indicate that our inspectors are all trained in terms of hazardous goods, etc. They are quite qualified and know what they are doing. Mr. Mandrake: Just one final question , please, last year when we were discussing Bill 21, the Minister had provided me with a regulation over and above Bill 21 as to the hours of service. Has that regulation been put in place now, or what is the status of that regulation?

Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I would like to indicate that the Government has just given approval to certain aspects of the National Safety Code that we will be proclaiming, and then we will be coming forward with the regulations any week now in dealing with hours of service, as well as a few other items in there. Mr. Plohman: Well, we will want to ask more questions about the Safety Code when it comes under the Mot or Vehicle Licensing, as the Minister indicated. I wanted to ask something about the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Program .

The Minister is aware now, if he was not before , that his colleagues, the Minister responsible for Workplace Safety and Health (Mr. Connery) and the Minister responsible for Environment (Mr. Cummings), have made some changes in regulations for labelling of goods . Carcinogens , for example, are no longer labelled specifically as to their specific chemical. They are using generic labelling , which is a serious concern to us. Our Leader , Gary Doer, has raised it a number of times in the Legislature .

My question to the Minister is, how does that impact on the transport of these dangerous commodities because they have to be transported, and yet they are not apparently labelled properly according to the changes made by this Government? Will that mean that the transportation of these particular carcinogens are in violation of the Dangerous Goods Regula tions that have been established by the federal Government and the provinces over a number of years and now implemented by all jurisdictions? *

(1520) Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman , I would like to indicate that all chemicals have to be labelled now and there has to be an inventory kept of everything that goes on. I am talking of the Department of Highways 826 and Transportation . Any chemicals that we deal with are all labelled right now and kept , and there is no change from previous in terms of how the department deals with chemica ls within their department. If the Member is asking the impact or if there is any change in terms of the trucking industry itself hauling chemicals or hazardous material , I do not have the answer for that.

I just know that from the department, we have had no change and the department has been very aggressive . They have been very positive in terms of how they have been dealing with this in the past. I am very concerned about it and that is why I repeat again that all chemicals within the department that the department has any jurisdiction over are all labelled and inventories kept, and there is no change in the way they do it. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that the Minister is concerned and I hope he would be.

I am concerned and I think all Members are very concerned about the transportation and handling of dangerous goods , particularly the identification of those dangerous goods, in this case, changes having been made by Workplace Health and Safety as to those in storage and handling . So the question was , does this affect the transportat ion of those goods? I would think, if they are not labelled specifically for storage but they must be labelled for transportation, that there is rea lly no advantage to the companies with the changes in terms of regulations.

But I would like the Minister to find out whether, in fact , those changes that were made by his Government are going to impact on the regulat ions that are there for transportation of those same carcinogens. If they are, that means that there would be further implications that maybe have not even been contemplated yet by the Minister. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I will try and answer it as best I can. The department has to label everything.

Trucks have to be properly identified in terms of units that move any of the hazardous chemicals , and the inventory is kept of all this material, wherever it is moved from, as far as the departments are concerned . That is why I raised the question before. Is the Membe r referring to other hazardous goods that are being hauled by, let us say, comme rcia l haulers? We have the regulations in terms of compliance where we do the checking and they have to adhere to that. There is no change in that respect.

If there is any change , and we certainly are not changing anything from the Highw ays and Transportation end of it, in terms of how we handle chemicals , but if there is any change in the commercial hauling of it, I do not think I have that information for you because there is nothing that has really changed in our department, in terms of the way hazardous goods are handled . Mr.

Plohman: I think the Minister might want to che ck that out , because certain ly Workplace , Health and Safety have changed their regulations for levels of these chemicals in the workplace and the labelling of those containers and the emergency procedures and so on .

Thursday, June 22, 1989 These have all been changed by regulation by this Minister's Government. The question is, how does that impact on the transportation of these dangerous goods? I would think that the Minister may not have the answers now, but he might want to get a circular from the other Ministers, from the other departments, and find out, get assurances from them tha t there will be no impact if that is in fact the case, or is it an area that maybe is still to come up in terms of a problem area with these changes, if in fact they are implemented as they were envisaged by this Government?

The Premier has indicated that he is reviewing that now and that maybe they will be changed back , but in the meantime the new regulation stands and I am attempting to find out whether it impacts on the transportation of tho se same goods that have been changed now insofar as how they are handled in the workplace . Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I can indicate to the Member that there is no change in terms of how the department or our complianc e officers treat the transportation of hazardous goods , in terms of they have to be properly labelled , they have to be properly contained, properly marked .

When our compliance officers check them, they know exactly what they are talking about. So there is no change in terms of how our compliance officers deal with the hauling of hazardous goods. Mr. Plohman: Perhaps there has not been up to now , but wait till they are challenged on it, because if there are some changes made in terms of the labelling, it is very possible that the compliance offic ers in this Minister's department have not been advised of those changes yet.

That is why I am asking these questions , because these changes were just recently made and they have far-ranging impacts and we want to know whether in fact there has been a communication with the other departments as to how this affects them. It is not just good enough to say, well , there is no change. We want to know, if there is not , whe ther there has been in fact inform ation prov ided to the department by another department that in fact there is no ch ange and it does not impact in any way on the way this department condu cts its business . Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, I would have to indicate that, to date, there has not been any change . There has been no indication of change coming but we will check and see whether there is any contemplated differ ent direction coming forward . We are certainly not aware of it at this time and, per sonally, I do not antic ipate it but I will make sure and check with the various other depa rt ments to see if there is any contemplate d differen t directio n coming down . Mr.

Plohman: Just finally , I would ask the Minister to check with Environment, with his colleague and Workplace Safety and Health to determine this very clearly and provide us with that information at the next sitting if he is able to. Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): A brief question, the Min ister may have addressed this already, but the 827 question - I have done an awful lot of travelling to urban centres in North America and the majority of them , as you approach the city, there are signs tha t indicate that transpo rters who are transporting dangerous goods are designated to follow specific routes.

I recognize that the trucking industries have routes that they go on and they transport them , but I do not understand how a new driver who is transm ittin g dyn amite or gasoline or anything of that nature knows what roads he shou ld go down or what roads he should not go down . It seems to me that the question is, why have you not looked at putting on the Perimeter Highway, on Highway 1 for instance where they come in or Highway 75 where they are coming in, truckers who are transport ing dangerous goods follow-in Edmonton, they do it with a little symbol. An Honourable Member: If not , why not? Mr.

Angus: Yes, if not , why not? Mr. Albert Drieclger: Mr. Chairman , I am told that when you transport hazardous material or dynamite, things of this nature, you need a spec ial permit to do that. That permit designates specifica lly the routes that you are allowed to travel. I thi nk the companies that do this kind of transportation are very much aware of it. They establish beforehand the routes tha t they would be allowed to travel when they handle these kinds of materials .

I do not know whether there would be an advantage to having signals up on, let us say, Trans-Canada , because you have the var ious arteries if we were going to address it as a random problem. By and large , the individual companies that haul this kind of materia l invariably know when they apply for their permi t which routes they are allowed to travel on. *

(1530) Mr. Angus: Mr. Chairperson, this will be my final question and then I will leave it to the critic to follow it up if he thinks it is significant enough . The comment then is the signs are generally symbols that indicate that dangerous goods follow along a particular route, and they are designated to keep these trucks off of, out of, and away from residential areas and from people , but the signs show someth ing else. They show individual motorists and/or d ri ving public that these are designated dangerous routes, and it gives them an opportunity to avoid those particular routes if they want.

So it is a two-way messag e that is being given in a very simple and , it seems to me, a very inexpensive method . I often wondered why this is not done in Manitoba , to direct these transports away, and to give the general motoring and living publi c a bit more comfort , if you like , and degree of knowing that those types of things are taking place. With that , it is not really a question , Mr. Chairman, to the Minister. I will leave it with him as the Minister of the department to deliberate and decide whether he wants to do it or not.

Thursday, June 22, 1989 Mr. Albert Driedger: I would just like to indicate that staff has been looking at that possibility. I am prepared to say I would like to compare it and see what other provinces do. You have to accept the fact that the towns, cities and villages all have their own traffic authority where they can designate some of these routes, so it is not quite that simple to do . I appreciate the suggestion, and staff has indicated we have already started looking at some. Mr. Mandrake: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for the answer on those signs because in fact I was going to bring it up myself.

The only question I have and that is that presently Manitoba has got, if my memory serves me right, under Dangerous Goods, which the department has brought out, I think it is a hundred and-a-few list of dangerous products, yet the federal Government has got something close to 900. Which one is the Manitoba Government or the Highways and Transportation going to use to identify the dangerous products, the Manitoba one or is the regulation going to be from the federal? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I do not know. Mr. Mandrake: At least he is honest. Mr.

Albert Driedger: We have our Man itoba regulations that our compliance officers, by and large, have to deal with the Manitoba regulations. Those items that are listed as dangerous goods within the province, that is what our compliance officers are working with. How we deal with the federal issue, I do not know. I will find out, the hazardous goods that are listed under the federal directory. Mr. Chairman, I am told that we have to comply with the federal list as well. Mr.

Plohman: As I understand it, the provincial regulations and federal regulations were developed together in consultation, and the identification of all those hazardous lists were compiled together through working committees and so on. The provincial list includes the federal list and therefore it all applies, which would be consistent with what the Minister just said insofar as dealing with all of those products listed in the federal list as well as what is in the provincial list. I do not even know why there would be a need for another provincial list, unless it expands further than the federal list.

You would think the federal list would be all-exhaustive . It would be something I would think the Minister could identify for us as to why indeed there is a provincial list. Does it go further than the federal list? If so, why does the federal list not include them as well? Maybe there are just some amendments that have to be made to the federal list as times goes on. This is obviously something that would have to be added to each year as new products are identified and reviewed . Perhaps the Minister could provide some information on that . Mr.

Albert Driedger: I will acquaint myself with all the information I can on this issue and come back with it. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass - pass. 828 2.(eX2) Other Expenditures $394,800-the Member for Dauphin . Mr. Plohman: Just one other question on this area, Mr. Chairman, there are 56 staff, no increase, and yet the compliance has been increased . I would think the burden of compliance has been increased because of the Safety Code and The Dangerous Goods Act having been proclaimed recently. Is the Minister able to continue to do a satisfactory job without adding additional compliance officers here? Mr.

Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I would have to indicate to the Member that under Driver and Vehicle Licensing there has been some additional staff added for the implementation and inspection under the National Safety Code. Basically, we have three teams with three per staff, which are the roving teams that do the inspections so there is sort of, not necessarily confusion , but part of it comes under the compliance aspect of it here and part of it comes under the

Section No. 6. Driver and Vehicle Licensing. Mr. Plohman: I would like to get at that time then an overall report as to how the department is coping with the additional burden, and whether indeed it is able to cope with existing staff to do the job . It was my understanding that there would be rather substantial numbers required as these new programs were fully implemented. I just wanted to get some clarification when we discuss ii under that other

section . Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-pass. 2.

(1) District Offices : ( 1) Salaries and Wages $8, 188,300-the Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, there is a program, Grant in-Aid, and Local Government District Roads. Has that program been developed and approved by the Minister at this point? Mr. Albert Driedger: Yes, the program has been approved , but that is under Related to Capital, under

Section 8., Aid to Cities , Towns and Villages ; Work in Local Government Districts and Unorganized Territories; and the new program, Municipal Bridge ... . Mr. Plohman: Okay, thank you . We will just deal with it there then, thank you. Mr. Chairman: 2.(f)

(1) Salaries and Wages $8, 188,300 - pass. 2.(fX2) Other Expenditures $909,500-the Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, before we pass that, I wanted to ask the Minister whether the districts have it follows up on the other questions I had the other day about tendering versus hourly. There has been a rather substantial change in the dollars that have been spent on private rentals on an hourly basis in the last five years, from some over $9 million in'84-85 down to $4 million to $5 million, and

Thursday, June 22, 1989 then last year was an exceptio n, I understand , because of some unusual circumstances-almost cut in half . At 15 percent savings on that work , it would indicate some $600 ,000 saved per year, it would seem to me. I do not know if that figure would be right on that 50 percent reduction , because it would be tendered - SO percent of that $9 million would be tendered-and you incur a 15 percent on average saving , so that it would be abou t $600 ,000 per year saved on $4 million each year becau se of the program to move to tendering rather than hourly, as was previously done to that extent.

Are all of the districts now working on the new rules that were applied - and I should not say new, I guess in'85-86? Have they been evaluated and are all the districts continuing to be satisfied with tha t system of tend ering or are there some changes con templated there , because it was done rather quickly, and there is always room for evaluation of these prog rams ? *

(1540) Mr. Albe rt Driedger: Mr. Chairman , the system seems to be workin g well. The Member knows ther e is a grea t deal of th is private rental work that is not suitabl e for tendering because of the nature of the kind of work that is being unde rtaken. There whe re it is possible , I think the districts feel comfortable with it. It seems to be working well. So I thi nk, based on the results that we have had , that we would cer tainly continue along that line , prov iding , like I say, there is certa in work that is maybe not suitable for tendering at the present time which our crews undertake . Mr.

Plohman: When the Minister says that certain work is not suitable for tendering, does he mean that it is smaller than $10 ,000 in magnitude or does he mean some other reasons why it is not suitable? Mr. Albert Driedger: Some of the work is very minor. Some of it i s of short-term duration and it is spread across the province . Sometimes it is of an urgent nature wher e we have not got time to go through the process . For example , maybe there is a faulty bridge or something like that, that needs immediate attention where the tendering process would take too long . These are sort of the things in a general basis .

It is very hard to define specifically. I use the bridge as an example, but there are other things that maybe, because of the urgency, time involved, the minor nature, that it does not lend itself to tendering. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, I understand that. It was just a question as to whether the $10 ,000 threshold was still the one that was applied under most circumstances. Mr. Albert Driedger: Yes, it is. Mr. Plohman: Oka y. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-pass . Item 2.(

g) Other Jurisdictions:

(1) Gross Expenditures $5,587,000-the Member for Assiniboia. 829 Mr. Mandrake: I will just go down to No. 3, Mr. Chairman . Would the Minister again explain to me the Recoverabl e from Canada , $150,000 , is that included in the $1 .922 million? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman , the figure on the right-hand side, $1 .922 million, is a total expenditure.

Out of that , if the Member can see under Recoverable from Other Appropriations, this is wo r k that we undertake for villages, for Local Government Districts, wherever we do some work where we charge the work to that community or organization or to other departm ents. It could be Natural Resources , and the $150 ,000 is part of th e total amount which we recover from the federa l Governmen t. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-pass. (gX2) Less: Recoverable from Other Approp riations , $3,665,000-pass.

Resolution No. 73: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $75 ,271 ,300 for Highways and Transportation, Operations and Maintenance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1990-pass . Item 3. Planning and Design and Land Surveys: Establishes design criteria and plans for the development of a primary and secondary road system , (

a) Planning and Design:

(1) Salaries and Wages, $1 ,824 ,500 .00. Perhaps the Minister would like to introduce his new staff. Mr. Albert Driedger: Ladies and Gentlemen, Mr. Ken Jardine . Mr. Chairman: Item 3.(a()1 )-the Member for Ass iniboia. Mr. Mandrake: We have had discussions with the Minister on this particular issue, the by-pass for Headingley . Back in 1983 , representations were made to then the Honourable Mr. Uskiw about this, and the residents of Headingley were very opposed to this by pass . Is this by-pass still in the planning stage or has it been cancelled? What is the status of it?

If it is in the planning stage, have they done any acquisition of land , rights -of-way, etc ., whatever is required for this by-pass? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, there was a study undertaken nine years ago on the Headingley by-pass . It has been sitting there for some period of time . At the present time, we are proceeding with doing an updated study on it. The basic plan has been approved in principle. We are starting to move in terms of trying to protect the land for the by-pass. Mr. Mandrake: Mr.

Chairman, on that by-pass, could he provide me with a copy of the design for that by pass , and where is it going to be located? Mr. Albert Driedger: I have no difficulty because we are not trying to hide anything. I would want to offer to the Member the possibility of maybe coming forward

Thursday, June 22, 1989 together with staff and having a loo k at what has been designed to some degree . The reason why it is not that simple to bring it forward and just present a copy to the Member is because we might have to clear off all these mikes here . I want to sincerely say because the Member represents the area and has some major concerns, has expressed them to me before that we will make provision to be able to have him come and maybe have a presentation done by staff as to what the study indicates what we are looking at doing . Mr.

Mandrake: We have gone through th is back in 1983 and the previous Member for Assinibo ia raised this back in'84 . We are constantly hammering away at the previous Government, and now this Government. The people in Headingley are very, very upset about that by-pass, and that reason being why, because all we are doing is transferring the problem from the present highway onto the north side of the highway. Now, we have two arteries that could be used , one being the CN tracks on the south and the other one being Saskatchewan Avenue .

Now, if we were a compassionate Government , we would look at those alternatives , but nobody seems to care about Assiniboia . Well, I am not going to tolerate that. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman , lest the Member gets too vexed , I do not think the Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Mandrake) is an engineer and neither am I. I basically depend on staff. The Member says it has been studied since 1983. It has been obviously . What we are doing right now is updating it. However , there are certain other problems developing with this.

At the present time, we are not even sure whether Headingley will be belonging to the city or not. Now , that leaves -(lnterjection)- Mr. Mandrake: That is still in my area . Mr. Albert Driedger: Well, regardless wheth er it is in your area or not, at least there is some concern if they do secede from Winnipeg and they would start developing residential developments in the area. It all has an impact as to how we treat this highway . I think after having waited nine years since the study was undertaken, I think that we would be irresponsible .

We are updating it now, but I do not think that we would want to initiate any activity. Certainly, I think it will probably lead to more cause to try and look at the by-pass which is, I believe , slated north of the existing route . If that would be the case that we will proceed in that, we would protect that area very diligently in terms of not allowing access into there to have the free flow in there, and let this present site or the present road be the commercial development where everybody has access into the city.

So it is not that cut and cried and simple in terms of saying well , you know, let us do the by-pass or not do the by-pass. There are many things involved at this stage of the game and certainly the fact that we are 830 updating it, looking at it very closely. I want the Member to come and have a look at exactly what is being proposed and the arguments for and against . Mr. Mandrake: Mr. Chairman, I have just only one more question left , and then apparent ly the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) wants to ask something about this particular by-pass . Mr.

Chairman, th is by-pass has been in the drawing stage since back in 1983. I appreciate what the Ministe r is saying, believe me. But the way the design was back in 1983, the way I had seen it-you know I am not an engineer-but the way it was designed at that time , it certainly did not meet with a proper criteria of the way it was designed. It was coming back onto the main road where the by-pass is, right onto the road in which way it is located right now.

So I wish that the Minis ter would please understand that when he says I get vexed about this, I guess I would get vexed about it because we are doing it right in my own area. The other question being is that I do not know how many years it is going to take for the Minister to have this by-pass started or even contemp lated. Would he offer me any kind of assurance that the highway between Headingley and the Perimeter be resurfaced to a point whereby at least it is driveab le? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, I would have to indicate honestly that we have not designated that portion for resurfacing at this stage of the game. I do not know whether I am in a position to make a commitment on that - Mr. Mandrake : Would you consider it? Mr. Albert Driedger: We will look at it. We will look at it in view of exactly what has to happen in terms of whether we pursue a by-pass or not.

I will accept some of the recommendations from the Member once he has had a chance to meet with staff, look at the options that our professional people have brought forward, and certainly maybe have some suggestions that we could maybe work at, at that time. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, just on this particular issue , I noticed in the program that the Minister had west Perimeter Highway , west of Headingley, 6.4 kilometres complete functional design.

Now he says he is just updating the study or something, but I think that when I w as Minister I believed that this was not necessary or practical at that time , and that is one of the reasons why I did not pursue it. At one time , I thought it was and I had a complete report and all the maps th at the Minister is referri ng to and looked at it, but I think we have to look at the reasons for thi s in the first place. That was the highway at that point. *

(1550) Perhaps it is not acceptable through an area that is populated , but if we look where Highway No. 1 goes through Winnipeg as it presently does, although we have the Perimeter , there are certainly a lot of areas

Thursday, June 22, 1989 where you have to have a slowed speed limit and so on as we go through Winnipeg. Here the lower speed limit has resulted in pretty well dealing with the probl em. I have not heard of too many deaths on that

section of the highway in the last number of years as a result of the lower speed limit. An Honourable Member: None. Mr. Plohman: None as the Member says and I agree, I think that the problem has essentially been solved . I do not know that there is to be any major expenditure done at that point. At least , if there is a major rerouting, the Member probably has a point. Rather than putting a by-pass around Headingley , look at alternate routes into the city if at some point in the future that has to be done.

I question why the Min ister would even bothe r updating this study at this time and resurrecting this thing that has been a thorn in the side of people in Headingley when it is probably not the right solution anyway, at least in my mind . Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, all I would like to indicate, as I did before, is that we are looking at updating the information that we have. We have requests from the city in terms of the ball park that is going to be establ ished there. We have the applications for residential development taking place in the area. All these things have impact.

It will be retained as status quo . Nothing would change that much in terms of the traffic on that route . A person could resurface it and leave it there but that is not the case . There is a tremendous amount of pressure being applied and this is one of the reasons why Headingley is looking at seceding, because they feel that they want even more activity out there and that the city is controlling that end of it.

I can indicate th is, that there will not be any monies expended until there is some resolve to the present concerns that are being brought forward in terms of will they stay or not , and what is the developmen t potential for the future in the area. Mr. Mandrake: Mr. Chairman, back on Septembe r 20, 1988, I had asked the Minister to look at considering the elimination of the bridge connecting south Headingley on PTH No. 334 . Of course , he told me that they are cont emplating on redoing this bridge. I am just wondering, I do not see it in the plans as to any initiatives being taken in this field.

Could the Minister possibly advise me today as to what his plans are in that field? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman , I am very pleased to indicate to the Member that we are completing the survey and design and we will be doing the acquisition of right-of-way . Mr. Mandrake: There are more problems in Headingley than that, Mr. Chairm an. As I had raised the question in Question Period with regard to the ball park that is being constructed right now, the city has now passed a resolution that they can have up to 450 parking stalls there. That means 450 cars are going to be going past my house.

That , I do not mind. What I am very 831 concerned with is how are they going to get into that ball park. I realize he is going to tell me the city has got to survey it first. Would he consider talking to the city and maybe offering a suggestion that they use an entrance from the lights at the drive-in? Talk to them and offer them a suggestion. Maybe this is what they need. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I want to indicate to the Member that we are in discussion with the City of Winnipeg .

Just further to the concerns that were raised before , one of the th ings they did not miss is that we are looking at establishment of the Red River Ex out in that area as well. There is tremendous pressure coming down in terms of how we deal with that , so there is dialogue going on. Our departmental people as well as the city departmental people are well aware of these things that are moving , maybe even before we become aware of them sometimes, and certainly are working very closely in terms of trying to address what could be done to alleviate some of the problems. Mr.

Mandrake: Sir, that lends to another question. That is exactly what I am trying to point out to this Minister. The by-pass is going right by or very close to the Assiniboia Downs . If we put Red River Ex out there on a permanent site, we are going to have to do some major modifications to that

section of the highway because we are going to have increased traffic coming in there . I can live with that because we are going to have Red River Ex out there , but it is just that it may not work . Mr. Albert Driedger: I am very concerned because at the rate the traffic is increasing there, I might not even go to the horse races any more. Mr. Mandrake: Tell me about it. I live there. Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): The planning that was to occur on the West Bakers Narrows Bridge I gather has been completed .

I am wondering if the Minister can indicate what the planning indicates the cost of that structure will ultimately be. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, first of all, I would want to indicate to the Member that the Bakers Narrows Bridge is on the program for this year, and I accept the thanks and the gratitude from the Member for Flin Flon graciously for the fact that it is on there. Mr. Storie: I have not given it yet . Mr. Albert Driedger: Oh, I am sorry, I misinterpreted that.

I would just like to indicate seriously though that one thing we are doing, we are trying to upgrade the bridge because we feel that from the time it was designed , our bridge people are now redesigning a little heavier type bridge so that it can take more traffic. We felt that from the time it was initially designed, I do not know how long ago it was , but we are upgrading the designing on it. It is still on the program . Mr. Storie: I have been around long enough to know that starts to sound like this project may slide. I have

Thursday, June 22, 1989 already acknowledged that the Minister of Highways (Mr. Albert Driedger) has approved this project. I very much appreciate it and the citizens of Flin Flon do. I mean that sincerely . My question though, is this redesigning likely to delay this project? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman , no. In fact , we are planning - we believe that we will be tendering this project this fall and the cost of the bridge is $2 million. Mr. Storie: I would like to follow that the Minister unfortunately indicates that Flin Flon giveth with one hand and taketh away with the other .

I just received a letter from the Minister-and I want to thank him for being kind enough to forward it to me personally that informs me and the citizens of Flin Flon that the Flin Flon Motor Vehicle Branch will be closing. *

(1600) I want to say to the Minister that I am dismayed , am shocked and I am frustrated, I guess, that this Minister has decided that a city the size of Flin Flon, one of the largest cities in Manitoba , does not deserve and the people of Flin Flon do not deserve to have first-class treatment from his department. He will be laying off people who have been employed in the department for 13 years in one case and for 17 years in another case, I believe. This is not acceptable treatment.

I want the Minister to justify to this committee and to the people of Flin Flon this callous treatment of a major city and its citizens. Mr. Mandrake: Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: Point of order? Mr. Mandrake: Point of order , we are supposed to be going line by line. The Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) does have a very, very valid point and I would never belittle him for asking that question, but I hope he would ask that question in the appropriate

section of our Estimates . Mr. Storie: On a point of order. Mr. Chairman: On the same point of order, the Member for Flin Flon. Mr. Storie: I appreciate the concern raised by the Member for Assiniboia . I recognize that this is somewhat out of order, but I am not a Member of this committee . I have other duties and other responsibilities, critic responsibilities. The committee does display leniency from time to time with respect to the ordering of questions, and I would ask for some leniency while I pursue this for a couple of minutes . Mr.

Chairman: I would thank Honourable Members for their input , and perhaps the Minister can just briefly clarify it for us. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, the unfortun ate thing is that if we do this because - and I am not trying to evade the issue , I am prepared to deal with the issue, 832 but under Driver and Vehicle Licensing. I have my staff who can get the answers for you . I can give you a general statement on that, but I do not have my registrar here who is responsible for that department to give me that information .

When we get to that issue , I want to try and provide the answers as to why, and I am prepared to discuss that . I am not trying to evade the issue. Mr. Chairman: I thank the Minister . We will return then to Planning and Design: Salaries and Wages . Mr. Mandrake: We are on to the by-pass kick today, Mr. Chairman . I was happy to see that the Minister took the initiative and did a study. I forget the name of the group that did this study for him on the by-pass for Morris.

My question is, would he please tell me when we are going to be able to have the result of that study and where the route is going to be located? Mr. Albert Driedger: The consultants are still conducting the hearings in the area there. They have not completed their hearing process and until they come forward , once they have completed that , have gone through that with staff , then they will come and make a presentation to myself. At that stage of the game, a decision will be made . Mr.

Mandrake: Just one last question on this and I appreciate the answer , could the Minister provide the critics with a copy of the questionnaire that was being sent out and whatever these consultants are asking the people , so that we know what they are being asked , particularly the questionnaire that the Minister had made mention of when he sent out the newsletter? Mr. Albert Driedger: I have no difficulty . I think we can probably get a copy. It was the consultant who actually sent out the questionnaire. I am going to try and get a copy of that questionnaire . Mr.

Mandrake: They also make a presentation to the various groups that attend these meetings , and I would like to have a copy of that dissertation on their part. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman , if it is available . I do not know whether they make a verbal presentation . We hardly do. It is pretty hard to table that, but whatever is available in terms of what they have had presented to them , we will try and get that from the consultants and give it to the Member . Mr. Chairman , just a l

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-25
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 25.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	cc542261541fd8f178deed110d6868f4b4c1d549

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