Volume XL Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH ·GENERAL ASSEMBLY · OF NEWFOUNDLAND Third Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 64 18 June f987

The House met at 3:00p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Oral Questions MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I had a question for the Premier and then we were going to go to Career Development, · but the· Premier is not here. I presume the Minister of Career Development and Advanced St~dies (Mr. Power) is here somE!WherE!? SOME HON. MEMBERS : He is here now .. MR. K. AYLWARD : I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies.

We would like to know if the minister or anybody in this government has . bothered to determine how many young people in the Province, ages sixteen to twenty-four, are unemployed at the present time? Have they bothered to determine the exact numbers? If they have, could he tell us the number? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, obviously the member, like all the rest of us, receives the monthly . reports from Statistics Canada that says how many people are employed, how many people are actively in the work force.

If the member wishes I can get him a copy. I believe I have L3418 June 18, 1987 Vol XL one here somewhere in my desk and I would gladly give him a copy of · it. The ~nemployment rate among young people is something that we are gravely concerned about, if that is the point he is makin, and we are trying to alleviate that as much as possible through the make-work programmes that we have. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K.

AYLWARD: Is the minister aware - I will table the . figures because we cannot seem to get the government to admit the numbers, and I think there is a good reason for that - there are 114,000 young peoplE! from sixteen to twenty-four in the Province and at the present timE:' 34,000 of those people are working? Does the minister know that of that figure there are 61,000 people classified as e!ither students or discouraged young people who are not seeking work?

Could the minister tell us if his government has done any research on th~ amount or the numbers of people who are discouraged and young people who are not seeking work because they feel they cannot find any employment? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, again, all of us in this House read the same monthly report that comes :in, which shows the number of workers actively s e e k i n g wo r k i n the Pro v in c e , those that are, obviously, unemployed, and those that are E!mployed in the Province. We arE! alwa·ys concerned about that.

The only target group that WE! identified in our $12.5 million No. 64 R3418

make-work projects this year .was youth, that is, below the age of twenty-four, and we did that because that is the group that has the highest unemployment rate in Newfoundland. The rate is higher amongst young adult males below -age twenty-four than it is even for females below age twenty-four. It is a subject of great concern for the government. We have identified and targeted that group in our make-work projects at $12.5 million and we hope to be able to alleviate the situation as much as we. possibly can. I just want to say, Mr.

Speaker, that sometimes in Newfoundland we think these are only problems relating to our jurisdiction when, in effect, they are a problem of e~ery Western. jurisdiction which has a tremendous amount of young people unemployed. It is something whic.h is of great concern to us and we are trying to improve it, but it is something that is not fully within Newfoundland1s control, to employ all the young people in the Province. MR. K. AYLWARD: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr.

Speaker, I will table from our Research Bureau, from limited research powers that we have, the information for the minister so 'that he can become aware of the numbers of unemployed people out there. Would the minister tell us, since his. government has no res.earch done on the exact numbers of disenchanted young people who are not even looking for work, and l3419 June 18, 1987 Vol XL since his government go by the .

Stats Canada figures on youth unempl~yment, could he tell us, besides the one or two programmes that you have brought in, one of them being an initiative that we have suggested, are his ministry and the government going to be dealing with the youth u·nemployment catastrophe of 40 per cent and upwards, if they have four or five initiatives· that they will be bringing forward within a few months to deal with a crisis in this Pro0ince that is double and/or triple most of everywhere else in·North America? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR.

POWER: Mr. Speaker, first of all, to say that we have no research done· is not accurate. We obviously dep€~nd upon Statistics Canada to givE• us ·the monthly figures as they brE!ak down a comparison of our Province and other provinces.' The fact is that our goVE!rnrnent, and many agencies of government, are extremely concerned .about youth unemployment, which is part of the total unemployment situation in Newfoundland which is larger and higher than it is in any other part of Canada. The programme that we have, !:he $ 12 . 5 mi 11 ion , is on e. way to alleviate that. But, Mr.

Speaker, there are other ways to do it. The $213 million investment that we make in post-secondary education in Newfoundland, which also comes under my jurisdiction, is one way to really help young people access meaningful employment and get away from the No. 64 R34-19

short term unemployment, syndrome that many of into. ten-week them are So, Mr. Speaker, we are spending vast amounts of money in this Province through my department, through the Department of Rural Development, and through i;he Department of Fisheries. All the­ initiatives that we take in this Province to make sure there is long-term, meaningful employment are all things that help youth, because ·they are part of the large~ problem of ' the unemployed in Newfoundland. I do not deny for one moment what the member has said, that there is a very serious problem in youth unemployment. We, Mr.

Speaker, are trying ·to identify that, but it is is just difficult. Two or three weeks ago · I represented Canada at a conference in Germany whereby the OECD countries, the Western countries of the world, were worried · about unemployment and labour market adjustment. Youth · unemployment was the highest priority at that conference. They identified for the twenty-seven countries involved something like 30 million IJnemployed, Mr. Speaker. Newfoundland has part of that and we are doing as much as possible to alleviate it. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Bonavista North. MR.

LUSH: I have a question for the same minister, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the minister is aware that projections by the Conference Boa~d of Canada and by his own Finance Minister (Dr. Collins) L3420 June 18, 1987 Vol XL predict that unemployment will decrease by .5 per cent in the next two years? That ·is one-half of 1 per cent over the next two years. It will drop from 20 per cent in 1986 to 19.5 per cent in 1988, one-half of 1 per cent. In view of that, Mr.

Speaker, is thE! government now telling the young people, and the adult population for that matter, that they can expect no relief from this disastrous, scandalous, and outrageous tragedy and travesty of ,youth unemployment? MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, the difference between the Conferepce Board of Canada and the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is that we were elected to do things in this Province to alleviate unemployment and to solve other social and economic issues in this Province.

We are trying to do that to the very best of Newfoundla·nd 1 s fiscal capacity. Simply because the Conference Board of Canada says that we are going to have only a 5 per cent reduction in unemployment does not make it so. MR. LUSH: Not 5 per cent but .5 per cent. MR. POWER: That Conference Board, Mr . Speaker, has been inaccurate, it has not always been right on the money in all of its projects over the last ten years or over the last five years. We haVE! an economy in Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, what we are . trying to improve in many significant ways, as we did with Kruger in Corner Brook, as we did with FPI.

No. 64 R34 .20

Members opposite violently oppose things like the Sprung project and the innovative kind of ways we are trying to develop new industries in Newfoundland. Members opposite cannot have their cake and eat it too, and say, on one hand, we should create employment, and, on the other hand, we should not do things which are new and modern. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. ·MR. SPEAKER: The hon. th.e member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I want to remind the minister, first of all, that the unemployment reduction rate we are tal k-ing about is not 5 per cent, it is .5 per cent, 1/2. of 1 per cent, and the prediction_s were made both by his own Minister of Finance and the Conference Board of Canada. Both, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, in view of this small improvement, if a corner store closes in St. John1s we will be up to 20 per cent again. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: · So, Mr. Speaker, will the minister please address the question?

In view of these startling facts that have been predicted by his own minister and substantiated by the Conference Board of Canada; will he now acknowledge that his government is doing nothing to reduce youth unemployment in this Province? L3421 June 18, 1987 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, the member takes great liberty in interpreting statistics.

The -Minister of Finance . has not predicted anywhere, to my 'knowl~dge, that we are going to have a . 5 reduction in unemployment over· the next couple of years. SOME HON. MEMBERS: The budget! MR. POWER: A report was in the budget, not saying that that report was done by this government or supported by this government. We are doing, as a government, a whole range of things to reduce unemployment in Newfoundland. Tomorrow I will make· another statement announcing creation of another several hundred jobs in Newfoundland.

Members opposite will get up, uniformally, individually, and criticize the fact that we· have a make-work programme in Newfoundland, that we -have created some jobs, in excess of 2,000, using the $12.5 million fund that we have put in the budget for this year. Members opposite get up and say you should not do the programme this way or you should not do the programme at all, and next day they say that somehow or other they are the only persons in the world who are concerne!d about youth unemployment~ Mr. Speaker, youth unemployment, and unemployment in general, is the highest· objective of this No. 64 R3421

government. We are going to continue OD with the programmes that we have in Fisheries, in Forestry, in Agriculture, and in the new business initiatives that we have taken this year. They are not going to come without general improvements in the marketplace, without general improvements in the ec 'onomy. We cannot ·become, as you oftentimes try to be, like the socialists hordes who say ·that every employee must be an employee of government. There is a way to stimulate the economy. There is a way to create meaningful jobs. And, Mr.

Speaker, we are going to continue ·along with those good programmes that we started this year and in years past. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. .MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: To the same minister, Mr. Speaker. It is interesting to see the m;i.nister praise the make-work programmes that the entire government condemned three years ago. When is the government going to face the truth about the 19,000 young people out there who are unemployed, recognize ·it as a crisis,· and give Newfoundland and Labrador a specific plan to deal with this 36 per cent unemployment rate?

When is government going to go to the young people with a specific plan to cure this devastating problem? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, anyone who sat in L3422 June 18, 1987 Uol XL this House this year during the Budget and Throne Speech realizes that this government is taking initiatives relating to youth unemployment as well as unemployment in general, through our Youth Entrepreneurship P~ogramme and our post-secondary education system, which is a very importan -t factor and should not in any way be diminished.

The fact is there are no easy fixes when it comes to solving youth unemployment whether in Newfoundland, in Canada, the United States or any of the free Western world. You cannot simply solve unemployment by forming government programmes. Education is an integral part of that, and the $213 million that thj.s government is investing l:his year on behalf of the citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador to make our education system function· is a direct way to create meaningful jobs in this Province.

The othE!r initiatives we have taken, creating a fund of $12.5 million, identifying 40 per cent of it for unemployed youth I targeted towards hiring young people, are meaningful ways to get youth involved in the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador. It ts not going to solve all the · problem and I suspect that for many, many years to come there is no way that any provincial government in any part of Canada is going to be able to find the fiscal resources to s-olve ·all of the unemployment problems in its area. It is a general economic problem.

As our marketplace improves 1 • as our education system combines and dovetails with the marketplace, then you will find that we have more meaningful employment created I Mr. Speaker. I only say that the members opposite who criticize soundly ever programme that we bring in on this side, are No. 64 R3422

saying one thing one day and something else the next day. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for St. Barbe. MR.· FUREY: It is one thing to be educated but when they are educated, ·where are the jobs? What does the minister say to the ~ducated young people quoted in The Globe and Mail two weeks ago, and one in particular who said, 'There is nothing here for me in my Province. I am the son of a fish plant worker. I intend to work long enough unloading crab to buy a one way ticket to Toronto'?

Now what does this minister and this government say to that young person and the thousands of young people who are educated and have to leave their homes? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: I say to that member, Mr.

Speaker, and hopefully through him to the people of the Province who seems to somehow diminish.the value that education plays in getting employment, that there is a tremendous difference between the number of employed people who have post-secondary education and the· unemployment rate with those persons who have no post-secondary training, who have not graduated from high school.

If the member is somehow or other insinuating that education is not a meaningful tool in creating employment in this Province, or anyplace else, he is totally, totally out to lunch when it comes to what is the new, progressive North American L3423 June 18, 1987 Vol XL approach to creating meaningful long-term employment. MR. FUREY: A 'final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. th' member for St. Barbe. MR.

FUREY: Is the minister saying that he has no plan for the 36 per c~nt of young people who are unemployed, no plan for those who are unemployed without eduiation, and no plan for those who are educated and unemployed? Is that wha~ he is saying this government is saying? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Career Development .and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, absolutely not. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, I remind the MinistE!r of Career Development and Advanced Studies of the nine recommendations of the House Royal Commission Report, numbers 105 to 113 inclusive. Mr. Speaker.· Re·commendation 105 recommends that both the federal and the provincial governments provide funding for youth employment programmes in this Province, and that it should be increased substantially, ~nd I ask the minister why has that not been done? Why is it that this government has not adopted that recommendation? And why is it that this government has not No. 64 R3423

co-opera ted with government in an Recommendation 105 this Province? MR. SPEAKER: the federal effort to put into effect in The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR: POWER : Mr. Speaker, as members opposite ask their questions, I really begin to wonder about the education system at all. · It was ·this government that . set up the Royal Commission on Employment and Unemployment. It was that party that opposed it, Mr. Speaker. It is this government which followed as many recommendations from the Royal Commission as we could possibly do.

Last year we had $7.5 million in -job creation projects, this year we put in $12.5 million. If someone does not think that going from $7.5 million to $12.5 million is not a substantial increase, then I do not know where you got your mathematics training. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, that we have combined our programmes in many ways with the federal programmes. The Job Creation Programme for Summer employment for · students, the make-wo~k projects of the federal government are in very many ways comj:>atible with the programmes we have.

The fact is the federal programme has training requirements involved, because the federal government realizes - the Liberal Party of Newfoundland may not real:Lze this - that you have to have a training component in many make-work projects , Otherwise, when the projects are finished - the old twelve week syndrome does not work - it simply leaves the person in exactly the same quandry that they were in before, with no better L3424 June 18, 1987 Vol XL skills, no better able to access a permanent, meaningful job.

So the fact that we have training programmes, the fact that many of the persons who are trained while they are working on federal programmes are trained in our provincial post-secondary institutes, the fact that we have a provincial programme, the fact that we have made substanttal increases in the funding, are indi~ations that this government is listening to the royal commission that we set up, Mr. Speaker . · SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, the minister is aware and knows full well that the $3 million House study is sitting on the shelf, in many rE!spects, and is wasted tax dollars, ju st as ta x dollars were wasted on the Orsborn Royal Commission Report which recommended that two has pi tal s on the Burin .Peninsula close wh~n the regional hospital opens, and tha t was thrown out the window as well. Let me ask the min:lster, Mr. Speaker, what is he going to do about Recommendation 10'7?

Is the minister prepared to do .what it says, 1 Both orders of government, 1 - federal and provincial - 1 should co-operate in forming an intergovernmental .commit tee which will design and implement public policies for youth employment and avoid unnecessary duplication of effort 1 ? What has the minister and this administration done about No. 64 R3424

that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker I the Royal Commi s sian that we appointed on this side - because we were legitimately concerned about unemployment problems in Newfoundland and not about playing games we set up the Royal Commission - made two hundred a.nd thirty or forty-odd recommendations. · Some of the recommendations the member mentions probably because he does not realize that there are many I many federal - provincial interdepartmental committees that co-operate on developing new programmes for .

Newfoundland and Labrador, both for . youth unemployment and for others. I deal on a regular daily basis with the federal minister, Benoit Bouchard. My staff deals on a daily basis with Mr. Bouchard 1 s staff, in Ottawa and in the Province, to develop programmes that· are joint, that are compatible, and that will, as much as is fiscally possible, relieve the unemployment problems of youth or adults in Newfoundland. · MR. SIMMONS: Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS: Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I found rather useful the discourse on mathematics.

If the minister is really preoccupied with the subject he should keep in mind that the youth unemployment rate was 25 per cent ·when his administration came into power and it is now 40 per cent. That is L3425 June 18, 1987 Uol XL the operative math here . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. R. Aylward), the member for Torngat (Mr.

Warren), pro tern, stated to the media today - I heard the actual tape of his rather impressive voice on air this morning - it is the ministers who decide who gets the seasonal jobs in this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, that we have confirmed what was dE!nied by thE! Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews) and by the Minister of Career Developmen~ and Advanced Studies, I wond er whether the Acting Premfer (Mr.

Ottenheimer), in the noticeabJ.e absence, understandable today, I believe, but the nOIAJ prolonged absence of the Premier from the House, answer a quesU.on that needs some answering, in vi ow of the statement by the member for Torngat this morning, that it is the ministers who make th E!. decisions on season .al jobs, decides who get the jobs in this Province, which is a contradiction of what the Minister of Cultur·e, Recreation and Youth has said - I am repeating the question becausE! the minister was preoccupied a moment ago - in view of that, would the Acting Premier now say why this hiring appro_a ch of having · the ministers make the job decisions is being followed?

Would he not agree that such hiring ought to be left to the Public Servite Commission and/or the Canada Employment Centers in the interest of fairness? MR. SPEAKER: No. 64 R3425

11~ The hon. Leader. the Government House MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I believe it is government policy that the vast majority of hiring is done through the Provincial Public Service Commission. Then there are programmes with a sort of special orientation, which it is hoped to get going as quickly as possible, programmes with special qualifications, one of which, for example, would be the requirement of a 40 per cent youth component, and necessarily students, but students included therein.

And in certain specific programmes, and usually these, or many of them, have a limited duration, government feels that it would get this programme moving and functioning, and people working and receiving pay and all of that process, much more expeditiously by having a specific departmental initiative in that instance. But, I repeat, the vast majority of hiring, maybe 90 per cent - I do not know what per cent - would be through the Public Service Commission. MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. SIMMONS : Mr.

Speaker, I say to the minister that all - not percentages, unless he wants to talk in terms of 100 per cent - seasonal hirings under the sponsorship of this government are being done not · through any Public Service Commission, but, as his colleague, the member for Torngat Mountains said this morning, by individual ministers. L3426 June 18, 1987 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS : Not true. MR. SIMMONS: Now, Mr. Speaker, that is no"t only an ·unfair system, but it is also very, very partisan.

Would · he give an undertaking to the House that that highly partisan, highly unfair system will be disconnected forthwith, and that existing mechanisms, such as the Canada Employment Centres will be used? I hear the rationale about the need to expedite, but I. submit to him that the Canada Employment Centre can expedite for him . Or failing that, why does he not put it into the hands of some senior people in the departments and remove from it the smell,- the stigma of partisanship, which it has acquired because of the current practice? MR. TULK: A good question. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon . the Leader. MR. OTTENHEIMER : Government House Mr. Speaker, of course, I would not concur with the 'premise upon which the hon. the Leader of l:he Opposition's question is based and ~hat is partisanship of the government in these hiring programm-es. So I would not agree with the premise. I would say that in these limited and specific programmes the government's policy of having departmental hiring and I would not say every department has a minister, so I suppose the department includes the minister ard all of the people in it, but it is essentially de~artmental rather than an No. 64 R3426

individual minister doing it -the government has found it probably not perfect - I thing few systems are -but that it has achieved the objective of expediting these programmes, getting people to work and getting pay cheques into their pockets and getting projects stq.rted. So we feel that it has wor.ked quite well. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: I have a _question for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout), Mr. Speaker.

Will the minister confirm that there are rivers in Newfoundland open for. the sports· salmon fishery without river guardians in place, without river guardians being hired, even though the rivers are indeed open, salmon are running, and the rivers are subject to poaching. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: The hon. gentleman 'surely knows that the provincial Department of Fisheries do not supply guardians on rivers in the Province. There· is another minister, present in the House, I believe, who has· m~nisterial responsibility for inland waters and recreational fisheries.

My plate, to be quite frank with you, Mr.. Speaker, is full enough with other problems in the salt water fishery and on the shore. I have ncit had a chance to worry about the sports salmon fishery, to be quite frank with you. MR. FLIGHT: L3427 June 18, 1987 Uol XL Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, salmon have a probJ.em in the salt water as well as in the fresh. It was not long ago when the minister curtailed the salmon fishery, shut down the salmon fishery because of his concern for the resource.

So, I again put this question to the minister, who I believe does have a responsibility. ·rhe very survival of the salmon fishery depends on the protection of {:he rivers. Either the salmon reach the spawning grounds or· there is no salmon in the comii"IE!rcial fishery. Now, poachin~3 is rampant in rivers where there are guardians, the minister well knows what will happen when there are no guardians, so why is the minister turning a blind eye on this? Why is he letting his counterpart, the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Siddon), off the hook -if you will pardon the pun, Mr.

Speaker - and why does he not go to his federal counterpart and have that. minister ensure that the Newfoundland rivers are fully protected all the time? Or is l:he minister concerne'd that this might be another fisheries issue where he would be ignored? MR. SPEAKER: Th~ hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I take no lectures from the han. gentleman on protecting the interests of the ~ommercial salmon fishermen of this Province. It was onJ.y a fE!l.\J weeks ago_ I went with the union and a committee of salmon fishermen to Ottawa to look for No. 64 R3427

changes to protect the interests of the commercial salmon fisherm~n of this Province. It was only a few weeks ago · that I announced funding for enhancement on the Exploits River through the provincial Department of Fisheries. I take no lecture from the hon. gentleman, but the fact of . the matter is that constitutionally there is another level of government in this country responsible for inland fisheries and river guardians. It is not me.

There is another minister in this House who is cons ti tut .ionally, and under the legal framework of our Province, responsible for answering the question, so let the hon. gentleman direct a question to the minister responsible, who is in this House. MR. FLIGHT : A final supplementary, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor- Buchans . MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, it seems the Minister of Fisheries wants to s laugh off what is an obvious ~esponsibility. By the way, he gave an undertaking that he would d ~a 1 with · t hi s las t y ear . MR . SPEAKER : O_rder, please! MR.

FLIGHT: I want to put my . final supplementary to the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. Will the minister confirm that any river that has now got a fish warden, a guardian, will have no guardian protecting it wi tl1i n ten weeks, .because all the river guardians are being hired for a period of ten weeks only, and when L3428 June 18, 1987 Vol XL they have worked ten weeks they are finished? So any river now that has a guardian in place will have no guardian ten weeks from now. Will the minister confirm that?

And while he is confirming that, will he tell us has he got any concerns about the safety of our rivers and about the way that our rivers are going to be abused under this system? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS : Yes, Mr. Speaker·. I do have concern about the rivers and the salmon resource that is so very, very important for the people of ~he Province. As my colleague has said, he takes a back seat to no one when it comes · to looking out for the fish resource, in this case the salmon fishery, for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Now, with regards to the guardians on the rivers, Mr·. Speaker, th~~rE! has been discussion ongoing for a period of time with the federal ~overnment, particularly federal Fisheries and Oceans, which hirE:~s the guardians, and so on, on the rivers. We haue been talking to the federal government because we are very, very co.ncerned about it. Just a few days ago, in a meeting with the federal Mird.ster of Fisheries (Mr. Sidden), which I attended with my colleague, the Minister of Fisheries, we rnade these and other points to him. Yes, we are very concerned, Mr.

Speaker, that some people are only being · hired for ten weeks, but we are trying to address that as best we can. MR. BAKER.: Mr. Speaker. No. 64 R3428

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Gand~r. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries and it has to do with surveillance in his area. I believe that both he and the federal minister agree that surveillance is one the keys to protecting fish stocks on the Grand Banks.

I would .like to ask the minister if ·on Monday and Monday night, during his trip around Conception Bay aboard the patrol vessel Leonard Cowley, taking this particular vessel off patrol on the Grand Banks and using it for a little pleasure cruise, I wonder if during that pleasure cruise meeting, cocktail party, whatever it was - did he dis cuss the importance of 100 per · cent surveillance with the federal Minister of Fisheries? MR. SPEAKER: The 11on . the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, first of all let me say . to the hon. gentleman that while the Leonard J.

C~ley was patrolling around Conception Bay, a Canadian Forces frigate was replacing her oh the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks, just in case he happened to be concerned. Secondly, did we discuss surveillance? Yes, Mr. Speaker, because, say whatever you like, when the present administration .­ and we disagree with them from time to time when we must ~ took over in Ottawa 40 per cent of the vessels on offshore Newfoundland had observers on them.

Today, as L34-29 June 18, 1987 Vol XL a result of the actions taken by the present government, and in particular by the present minister, 100 per cent of all the vessels, domestic and fored.gn, . in the 200-mile limit off Newfoundland•s East Coast have observers on them, 100 per cent against 40 per cent IJJhen another administration was in Ottawa, Mr. Speaker. That is real progress. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the member for Gander. hon. the MR.

BAKER: I wonder what frigate was taking the place of the Cape Roger, the only other patrol vessel that we had, which at the same time was sitting in dry dock in Nova Scotia. I wouJ.d like to ask thE! minister if he also discussed with the federal minister the reason why the Cape Roger was in dry dock in Nova Scotia instead of on dry dock in Newfoundland, where dock workers need the work? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. RIDEOUT: No, Mr. Speaker, I did not ask the Minister of Fisheries that question at all. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed.

At this stage I would like to welcome to the Speaker•s gallery Mr. Mickey D~vine and Mr. Alan No. 64- R3 4-29

Thatcher, Uice Presidents · of _Abitibi-Price. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Orders of the Day MR. OTTENHEIMER: Order 4 . On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider certain bills, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. · Committee of the Whole MR. CHAIRMAN : Order, please! A bill, Community Province." "An Act To Establish A College· System In The (Bill No. 13) On motion, clausE!S 11 through 19, carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall clause 20 carry? MR. FENWICK: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the member for Menihek. MR.

FENWICK : It is my impression that when we adjourned the debate last time the amendment I had proposed to one of the clauses was up for debate. Has that been voted on yet? I am sorry. I missed yesterday 1 s session, so I am not sure. L3430 June 18, 1987 Vol XL AN HON. MEMBER: Yesterday was Private Member 1s Day . MR. FENWICK: I k now, so I am pretty sure it was not on. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, with reference to that, we are now on Order 4, Bill 13. I think the hon. gentleman is referring to another bill. MR. FENWICK: No. MR. OTTENHE.IMER : The han. gentleman is refE!rring to Bill 13, is he? MR.

FENWICK: I thought it was Bill 13 . To the point of order, Mr. Chairman. It· is my understanding that we proposed an amendment to one of the clauses in Bill 13, asking that an instructor be included. It is my understanding that the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies had been debating that particular amendment at the ·time we adjourned the debate, and I was waiU.ng for the vote to be called on that particular amendm~nt. If it has been called, Fine, but I did · not hear it being called. MR. CHAIRMAN : The han . the President of the Council. MR : OTTENHEIMER: . Mr.

Chairman, .I arn not saying 'that is not the case. I do not remember. I recall that th1:!re tJ.tas an amendment but I do not recalJ. whether it was voted on or not. I think the question now. is that that clause has been passed and we are onto an additional clausE!. That was an amendment on an No. 64 R3430

earlier clause, but I rest in the hands of the Chair on that. I recall there was an amendment. I cannot say that I rec_all whether it was disposed of or not. I do not know. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: My understanding, Mr. Chairman, is that you would have to call a vote on the amendment prior ~o going on to the actual clause itself and then onto subseqUE!nt clauses. I tJJa s wa i t i n g for a c a 11 _ a n d I d i d not hear one. I just want to know if the Chair disposed of if the last day or not, but I do not believe we voted on it then. MR.

CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, we are now checking the minutes. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, if I may. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS: . I recall what the gentleman from Menihek is saying to be the case, that there was before the Committee an amendment to clause 10 relating to the makeup of the board. Now, it was a clumsy amendment but that is beside the point, I think the intent is understood. If the Chair has inadvertently failed to call the vote on the proposed amendment to _clause 10, I suggest we revert to accommodate the gentleman for the purpose of the vote alone.

The question had been called, and if we want to go back to take a vote L3431 June 18, 1987 Uol XL on the amendment, we here would have no objection to doing that. MR. CHAIRMAN: /Order, please! We will take a short recess, by leave of the House, and we will clear this matter up in just a few minutes. Recess MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! On June 15, 1987 thE! han. the member for Menihek moued an amendment to clause 10, seconde!d by the han. the member for St. John 1 s East.

The hon, the member for Menihek spoke on the amendment, as did thE! hon, the Minister for Career Development and Advanced Studies, and thE! minister adjourned the debate because time had run out. The amendment has not been voted on. If it is the wish of the House, we will now vote on clause 10. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Me~ihek. MR. FENWICK: What you are saying, then, is that we are at the point IJJhere we ~'lre discussing the amendment. Is. that the ruling? I am trying to figure out where we ~re at this particular point. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon, member may speak to the amendment. He has t~n minutes. MR. FENWICK: · Just to clarify the position, Mr. No. 64 R3431

Chairman, since the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies adjourned the debate, I thought he would have been recognized to then clue it up. So I assume he has adjourned the debate and he has finished his discussion? MR .. CHAIRMAN: The han. minister did not ask to be recognized. MR. FENWICK: So, we will assume he has finished.

Just a few comments to clue up the particular debate. · I think the minister, in his rebuttal to the arguments we made that an instructor should be on the Board .of Directors, argued a number of what I thought were particular archaic and, quite frankly, medieval concepts of what should be done in terms of the community college or an educational university of any kind. To backtrack a bit on the argument, the Bay St. George Community College, which was established in · 1975, has, for the last twelve years, had an instructor as a membar of i~s Board of Directors.

The instructor, along with one of the students and a selection of individuals from t·he community, comprise the board which made the decisions abo~t how the college was to operate, and it also made a ~onsiderable number of decisions that have affected the welfare of the instructors, themselves.

This House, back in 1975, in its wisdom accepted the idea that instructors should have more than just a master/servant relationship with the institution, and it felt for the ·good of the institution that an instructo~ should be on L3432 June 18, 1987 Vol XL the board to allow for that kind of input and to make sure that communication was a two way street.

It is my experience, from having worked in that institution for· a number· of years, that that system worked quite well; the instructors in the institution were quite responsible in putting very good people on the Board of Directors and they accepted that as their share in t:he responsibility and the management of the institution.

Now, the minister has never sa:Ld that that particular experiment in worker · democracy, if we want to put it that way, has been a failure, all he has done is br·ing out the very rare circumstances where he felt that that instructor may sometimes be in a position where his or her individual course may be affected and, therefore, would be in a position of conflict from the point of view of being an instructor and bedng a mE!mber of the board that may make a decision to either continue the course or discontinue it.

I would suggest to the minister that in that case the individua1 be'ing in a conflict of interest, just as any .other board mE!mber in a conflict of interest, would then have to withdraw from the decision that was to be made. In other words, they would say, 1 That is my course you are talking about. Obviously I am in a conflict of interest position here, I will excuse myself while the matter is being debated by the board.

If that is the only argument the minister can come up with for discontinuing what has otherwise been a very positive practice, the n I wo u 1 d s u g g e s t i t i s n·o t a very good argument at all and I would anticipate that the minister would then bring up other No. 64 R3432

arguments he may have as to why this change should be made. Mr.

Chairman, we are talking about setting up five new community colleges, we are talking about a major new experiment in terms of the educational institutions of our Province, we are talk~ng about tremendous new initiatives that hopefully will propel our vocational system, our post-secondary system into the twentieth century in such a way that these are strong credible institutions that do the jo~ of educating our young people so that they can receive employment, and I think it is a shame if the minister himself. through some mysterious fear that instructors will contaminate the Board of Directors for making decisions in the best interest of a community as a whole, and the students, should insist on the instructors not being part of the Board of Directors.

I think it is time for him to revise his thinking, to bring himself into the Twentieth Century and just · look at the university, which has that model and has that concept, and to say, Yes, this is a sensible and a reasonabie thing to do and, therefore, vote for our amendment which I think will strengthen considerably the boards themselves and, thereby, the community. colleges that are being established. I urge all members in the House to vote for the amendment. MR. CHAIRMAN ·: ·shall Clause 10 carry? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Go away! Sit down! MR. CHAIRMAN : L3433 June 18, 1987 Uol XL Order, please! AN HON.

MEMBER: He is as king for a division, Mr . Chairman. He cannot, can he? MR. WINDSOR : No division, Mr . Chairman . The motion is carried : MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is carried. Shall Clause 10 carry? MR . FENWICK : Division. AN HON. MEMBER: You only have two . AN HON. MEMBER : You have to have three . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Shall Clause 10 carry? SOME HON . MEMBERS: Carried. On motion, Clause 10 carried . MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause 11 carry? Just for through carried going to clarification, ClauSE!S 11 19 have already been and vote!d on.· We are move to Clause 20.

On motion, Clatises 20 through 32 carried. ·On motion, enacting clause, carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the title carry? MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman. No. 64 R34-33

MR. ·cHAIRMAN : The hon. the member for Mount Scio - Bell Island. MR . BARRY: Before you carry the title, I want to ask the rninis.ter, in ter·ms of the boards of these community colleges, how are they selected? The point has been made before in the House and I think the minister accepted it with some degree of approval that there should be local community involvement more so than having the appointments made from the commun.i ty by the minister. . I was wondering if the minister could indicate where ·his thinking lies?

At what point in time are we going to s~e the election of community college boards as, I understand, is the trend in other parts of the world where they have community colleges? Because these are not community colleges if thE!Y are going to end up as institutions where the boards are appointed by government. MR. POWER : Mr . Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han . the Minister for Career Development and Aduanced Studies. MR. POWER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a point on that.

Basically, al1 the Boards of Governors, for the sake of being expeditious if nothing else, ar.e now ·appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. We are more than happy to take recommendations from any community sponsored group, such as a town council, or a rural development association, or any active organization, in the community, or any · individual, for that matter. L3434 June 18, 1987 Uol XL In effect. many of the advisory committees that w~ put in place were as a· result of recommendations which came from those sources.

For this, in order to get the Boards of Governors in place, in order to get the community colleges established, we will be appointing the Boards of Governors. I would envisage that before the next round of boards have to be appointed, three years from now. we will be into a ·stag•:! where we will be quite capable of having elections for those types of boards. Whether there will bE! a full board elected or partial boards, I am not really sure yet, but I certainly have no personal hesitancy in saying that I favour· having the full boards elected.

They are community colleges and. as we have done in Newfoundland with progressive mcides, . like we have done with the school boards where. I think, 75 per cent arE! now being elected, I would like to also see having 100 per CE!nt elected for community college boards in the not too distant future. On motion, title carried. Motion, that the Commit tee report having passed Bill No. 13 without amendment, carried. MR. OTTENHEIMER : Order 5. Bill 12 . A bill, 11

An Act Respecting The Establishment And Operation Of The Institute Of Fisheries And Marine Technology, The Fisher Institute Of Applied Arts And Technology And The Cabot Institute Of Applied Arts And Technology. 11 (Bill No. 12) On motion, Clauses 1 through 10, carried. No. 64 R3434

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause 11 carry? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN .: Order, please! The hon. Council. the President of the MR. OTTENHEIMER: With respect to Clause 11 - and I think hon. gentlemen on the other side have a ~opy - there is an amendment which I would propose on behalf of the minister who introduced the bill. The purpose of it is to clarify the structure and composition of the board and the amendment is as such: I move that Clause 11 of Bill No. 12 be amended by striking out subclauses (2), (3) and (7) and by substituting the following:

(2) A Board of Governors of an institute continued as a corporation under this

section shall consist of not more than eleven members appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council.

(3) The Lieutenant-Governor in Council shall designate one of the members as chairperson and one as vice-chairperson. Subclause

(7) A board shall also include one member appointed by the minister who shall (

a) be a full-time studerit of the Institute nominated by the executive · body of the student association of .that Institute, .and (

b) t:wld office for a one year period only. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: L3435 June 18, 1987 Vol XL Mr. Chairman, obviously the same principle that would apply ·to the community colleges should apply to the Board of Directors of the institutions as well. I find it lamentable that the minister has not seen fit to put it in there.

I still argue that an instructor on the Board of Directors is a desirable thing, and I think it would have been a good idea for the Fisher Institute, the Cabot Institute, and the Institute of Fisheries and Marine Technology to also have instructors on them. I am not going to propose an amendment, because I think it is somewhat of a futile exercise given the events of the last. tE!n minutes. However, I would still like to put on the record our objections to the fact that there is no instructor on. th ·e Board of Directors of these institutions. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the minister in moving the amendment could tell us what the change is insofar as Clauses 3 and 7 are concerned. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Clauses 3 and 7 are the same, t think. MR. TULK : It does not make any sense . MR. SIMMONS: You pull them out and put them right back in. I just wondered if there was something we were missing. MR. OTTENHEIMER: No. 64 R3435

On conferring with the legislative drafts people, it is a question of the verbs, 'designate' and 'appoint'. Apparently there were both words, 'designate' and 'appoint' . MR. SIMMONS: I can see the change insofar as what you have done in sub (2), whic~ is moue from ·the old (3) 'the appointment by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council' to the new (2). Right? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes. MR. SIMMONS : The phrase, 'appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council', is now in the new sub (2), and that necessitated repeating Clause 3 without that phrase. I still do not see what the difference is in sub (7). MR.

OTTENHEIMER : Well, in sub (3), of course, there is a difference. MR. SIMMONS : That is what I say . MR. OTTENHEIMER: It is changing 1 appoint' to 'designate'. The old one: 'the Lieutenant-Governor shall appoint the members of the board and shall designate one of them as Chairperson'. The new one says, 'the Lieutenant-Governor in Council shall designate one of them. 1 I suppose in terms of legislative drafting it is neater. On motion, amendment carried. On motion, clause 11 as amended, carried. On motion, clauses 12 through to 32, carried.

L3436 June 18, 1987 Vol XL Motion, that the Committee report having passed Bill No. 12 with amendment, carried. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Qrder 6. Bill No. 39 . A bill, "An Act To Memorial University Act." (Bill No. 39) Amend The (Pensions) Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Order 7. Bill No. 27. A bill, "An Act To Amend ThE! Financial Administrations Act, 1973. 11 (Bill No. 27) On motion clause 1, carried . MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall clause 2 carry? MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The hon thE! member for Bonavist.a North. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Chairman, previously we expressed our concern with clausE• 2 of this particular bill, stating in the main that we thoug ·ht that this particular measure gave the government too much power, it was too extensive in its scope, that it . indeed .. nuilifies

section 30 of the Financial Administration Act which clearly lays out how the government might transact its business with respect to the purchase of goods and services and work rendered. We believe this particular clause No. 64 R3436

wipes out, nullifies all of the checks and balances, and all the protection of the public purse given under

section 30. This particular clause allows the government to do just about . anything they wish with respect to work being performed for the public service. Mr. Chairman, we are not talking about peanuts here. For example, this particular clause would allow the government to do the very thing that the Auditor General criticized them for in this year•s report of the Public Accounts when he criticized the government for prepaying somewhere close to $3 million for asphalt without these goods being provided, without the asphalt being received, in this particular case, and this is only one of the number of abuses that can take place if we were to allow the passage of that particular

section today. It allows the government to do all kinds of things outside of the provisions, outside of the checks and balances given under

Section 30 of the Financial Administration Act. That is why we are afraid of this particular section, Mr. Chairman, it allows for all kinds of abuse and it is certainly not necessary. The minister mentions that it is to take care of petty cash. Well, again, if that is what is necessary ,the minister should have specified that in the bill. Mr. Chairman, $3 million is not petty cash. It is not petty cash, so it opens up the way for all kinds of abuse; it allows the government to circumvent the Financial ·Administration Act in just about any way they ~ee fit to do so. Mr. Chairman, I want to introduce L3437 June 18, 1987 Uol XL an amendment which is as follows: To moue the deletion of

Section 2 of this particular bill entirely. I have copies for the Minister of Finance and Mr. Fenwick. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Beauchesne, Standing Order 773, Clause 6 states: 11 An amendment to delete a clause is not in order, as the proper course is to vote against the clause standing part of the bill. 11 I will have to rule that the amendment is not in order. MR. TULK: Which one? MR. CHAIRMAN : Standing Order 773, Clause 6. The han. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman .

I would like to make a Few VE!ry brief comments on clause 2 of this particular bi 11, and I would lib:.'! to speak through you, Mr. Chairman, directly to the Minister of Finance and ask him, as I did a couple of days ago, if he would consider withdrawing this particular

section himselF, seeing that the amendment is not in order and we would have to· go through a voting procedure which, obviously, we, on this side of the House, cannot hQpe to win. And the reason is very simply this, that I really cannot see for the life of me why it is necessary for the government to circumvent

Section 30 of t~e Financial Administration Act. I do not understand why a notwithstanding clause has to be put in there No. 64 R3437

which effectively circumvents clause 30, because clause 30, as the minister knows, contains all of the safeguards that have to be there to ensure that proper authorization is given for the spending of money. Now, the minister, in reply to me a e>ouple of days ago, said that in here they say • subject to the regulations•, and that, in fact, new regulations are going to be made to ensure this particular bill also has safeguards. I would say to the minister it would be totally and completely irresponsible for me to vote for a bill that negates Clause 30 of the Financial Administration Act without first knowing what regulations are going to be in place that would apply to this particular

section w·e are talking about now. It would be totally and completely irresponsible of me, or of anybody on this side to support

Section 2 of this bill without knowing ~hat the regulations are going to be that are going to . govern that SE!Ction. Mr. Chairman, without those regulations, this gi~es a carte blanche to government, it gives almost a blank cheque, to totally ignore very essential safeguards in the Financial Administration Act. I would appeal to the minister on the basis of common sense. Does he not realize that we could not possibly support this unless we knew what the regulations were and that he should not put forward this particular bill unless he comes forward with the regulations? Who knows!

What if this bill passes now, there is an election tomorrow, a new government get in there, and there is a new Minister of Finance who is not as responsible as the L3 4-3 8 June 18, 1987 Uol XL present Minister of Finance maybe, and he gets in there and then, all of a sudden, he says, 1 I do not. have to follow

Section 30 of the Financial Administration Act•? So I would appeal to the minister to voluntarily withdraw this particular

section o~ to table the regulations that govern this

section before we vote on it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman . DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. CHAIRMAN : The han. the Minister of Finance . DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I had grave doubts until the hon. member mentioned that there might be a Finance Minister other than myself and a vision came to my mind, 'My God, we might have a Liberal Finance Minister at some future date, a couple of centuries from now, and he certainly might do something that he should not do. 1 So I really do have to respond in a very serious way to the member because of that remark. I think we have to understand a couple of things. Firstly,

Section 33 is presently there for petty· cash purposes and it is there for petty cash purposes limited only to travel expenses. N01.u, this amendmen't is an amendment to that act to expand that petty cash approach to something other than the travelling expenses, and it is going to be done under regulations which will lirni t the auailabili ty of this for expenditures. I have no problem telling the han. member what regulations we intE!nd to put into effect. Incidentally, No. 64 R3438

we could not put them into effect until the amendment was brought in because you cannot bring in regulations until there is a

section for the regulations to apply to. We intend to have the Comptroller General authorize the making of such an advance in respect of payments where prompt expenditure must be made and the normal payment facilities are not practical or immediately available. So the Comptroller General is limited to that extent. There has to be prompt payment. You cannot go through the usual rigamarole. He has to satisfy himself that prompt payment is required. And, secondly, that it is not practical to go through the other way or the means of going through the more elaborate way of confirmation is not available.

Secondly, this t.uill only be done if, in the opinion of the deputy minister, the advance is of such a nature as can reasonably expect to cover just that expenditure. It cannot be more than that. The deputy minister is charged with the responsibility of asking for an advance that is only reasonable for this prompt expenditure that must be met. Finally, notwithstanding anything else, no advance may exceed $1,000. Covering the whole thing, despite those other restrictions, there is another restriction saying that no advance can exceed $1,000. So it is quite clear that this is petty cas h we are t a 1 king about.

The regulations will have these limitations on them. So the fears that the hon. member for Bonavis ta North (Mr. Lush) and the hon. member for Gander (Mr. Baker) have, I think were legitimate to L3439 June 18 , '19 8 7 Vol XL bring up. I have no problem with that. However, I think our regulations will confine this to the petty cash situation. There is a petty cash provision in that act now, but it is too limited. It is just for travel. I think everyone can realize that if you are trying to run anything, you have to have a petty cash account for the incidentials and incidential s are not only lirni ted to travel.

So I can assure han. members, this is just for petty cash. I think it . is a reasonab1e thing to do a~d the regulations are quite ~lear on it. MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN : The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS : Just a quick word becauSE! I hear what the minister is saying, and it is all very well meaning, but I want to refer him to another set of events under the predecessor administration of Premier Moores and show him what not only can happen but did happen in similar circumstances. Then I . want to make a suggestion to him which might accommodate the situation.

I take him back to the Public Tender Act of 1974 brought in by the Moores Admini~tration in which we were given great assurances by the then sponsoring minister, Mr. Mars hall, that with the appropriate de .tailed regulations, there could be no abuse. In 1 9 7 6 there 1.ua s a fire at thE! Fisheries College. The day after the fire, a government fire inspector certified that the amount of damage was of the order No. 64 R3439

_ ... of $28,000 to $30.000. That was the limit of it, about $30,000. Three years later government paid out to one contractor alone $576,000 in respect of that fire. I.t was done under a mechanism not unlike the one here where there were to be work orders not ex_ceeding $10,000 each at the time.

Through a series of work orders, multiple work orders to the same contractor, thereby avoiding the public tender call, thereby leaving the effective decision as to who got the work to the discretion of a middle level bureaucrat, a mechanism similar to the one here was utilized, I say. abused, as was subsequently found by the Mahoney Inquiry and· some court proceedings. It tAJas abused to the extent that was never intended by the legislation. Mr. Chairman, we understand the minister is well-intentioned and he has given hi~ undertaking to the House about the $1,000 limit.

He has heard the concern of the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush) and the member for Gander (Mr. Baker).

He can accommodate that concern because he will not always be there, and there will be a time when another minister u.lill be in charge, but more to the point, there will be a time when those regulations might get changed because those regulations, which now have $1,000 limit, do not come back to this House: So if ·the minister is correct in saying that the intent is in terms of petty cash only and that the proposed regulation will have a $1,000 ceiling, why does he not follow the suggestion given earlier by my friend for Gander and write into the legi~lation, write into this clause here, why does he not write a dollar limit into it, whether $1,000 or L3440 June 18, 1987 Vol XL ~- .... -----~~- $2, 000?

Why does he not write in a reasonable dollar lirni t, instead of leaving· that to the discretion of . the regulation drafters and instead of allowing it to be put in the regulations which could bE! changed without reference to this House? I say to the minister, ·if he would accommodate that particular suggestion, we could then consider supporting his

Section 2 here. Our concern is the possible abuse of the new powers being giuen under

Section 2. MR. BAKER: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Gander . MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wo u 1 d a 1 so 1 ike to point o u t to the minister that some of the wording that he used in the regulations, for instance, 'prompt payment required', and so on. seems to ITIE! one way to gE!t around having very slow payment, because there are cases where government has a reputation for being slow paying bills that come in and so on.

One way to get around that is to streamline and speed up the certification proces-s, and perhaps he would be better advised to go to work on the certification process itself rather than put something in here which he says is petty cash. The $1,000 lim.it is fine as far as I am concerned, but there is another way to get prompt payment other than totally short-circuiting the process, and that is to speerl up the process. So I would just like to make that one additional point. DR. COLliNS: No. 64 R3440

Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance . DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I hesitate to bring this up, and I do not do it in any confrontational way, but strictly speaking what seems to be being debated now is the principle of this bill, and we are now in third reading not in second reading . I just had to bring that point out. The reason why, Mr. Chairman, we do not put a dollar .figure in there is that, as everyone knows, inflation is a fact of life. So perhaps it is going to be reasonable now to make it $1, 500 and the only way we can do that is to come back and get an amendment in the House.

So these sorts of things usually are accommodated in regulations, and regulations have to be tabled in this House, so there is nothing secret about them. There will be no, shall we say, ballooning of that dollar amount without members of this House knowing about it, because any change in the regulations will be tabled here. If han. members are really concerned about this, I suggest they could bring these concerns up next year.

We will be sitting here again next year, and if there is reaT abuse from . this point, han. members can bring forward some evidence of that abuse, either in this House or to me privately, and I give them an assurance that if there is a legitimate reason to further amend t hi s c 1 au s e of this a c t , we wi 11 certainly do it. But, as it is, we think that this is a totally reasonable way to go, and the regulations give all the assurance that is necessary at this stage in the absence of demonstrated L3441 June 18, 1987 Uol XL nonworkability or abuse of the thin~.

So we really ~annat accommodate the Opposition on this because we feel that it would bE! unreasonable for us to do so, and we are reasonable pe!ople. So, if we have to come to vote, I guess we will have to come to a vote. MR. BAKER: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN : The hen. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I am not an expert in legislation, let me say first, however, j_t seems to me that it would be nice if we could draft legislation and leave it so wide open as to be able to say, Well, there will be no abuse because we trust what is going to happen.

It see!ms to mE! t. hat w he n 1 e g i s l at ion i s d e s i . g n e d it should be designed in such a way as to avoid that possibility.

This is the point I am making: If it does open up a possibility of abuse, if it does open up the scenario that the Leader of the Opposition suggested, if it does open up that possibility of abuse, then perhaps we should not do it, then perhaps we should go back and say, All right, before a paymE!nt is made there has to be the proper certification: we ha•Je to have documents saying that the goods are received, or the services have been rendered satisfactorily, and it has to go through the whole process.

Maybe we should go back to that and say, No, expendi tur ·c:!s of money like this have to properly certified and if it takes a few days too long, then we wi11 do our best to sp.:~ed up the process. It seems to me that the minister is saying we have to . have No. 64 R3441

some trust here, we should wait and we will do this, and if there is any abuse a year or two down the road, the Auditor General will pick it up, or members on this side will pick it up, or whatever, it will be picked up and then the changes will be made. My . experience in that, of course, I would say to you, Mr. Chairman, is that once we . get into a confrontational situation after something is done, then what we have is cover-up and denial and all this kind of thing .. So it is not as easy to get at ·then.

I would suggest to the han. minister that · it is still better to not have the possibility there, it is still better if we left clause 30 of the Financial Administration Act operative. MR. CHAIRMAN: . Shall clause 2 carry? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall clause 3 carry? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Carried. MR. TULK: Division on clause 2, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall clause 4 carry? MR. TULK: Division on clause 2, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Division . Call in the members. Division MR.

CHAIRMAN: L3442 June 18, 1987 Vol XL All those in favour of Clause 2 please stand: The han. the Premier, the han. the Minister of Justice (Ms Verge), the han. the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey), the hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout), the han. the Minister of Mines (Mr. Dinn), the han. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications (Mr. Russell), the han. the President of the Council and Minister of Energy (Mr. Ottenheimer), the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), the han. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms), the han. the President of Treasur_y Board (Mr.

Windsor), the hon. thE! Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young), thE! han. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Mat thews), the han. the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Butt), the han. the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle), the han. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. R. Aylward), the han. the Minister . of Social Services (Mr. Brett), the han. the Minister of Development and Tourism (Mr. Barrett) 1 Mr. Baird, Mr. Patterson I Mr. J. Carter, Mr. Tobin, Mr. Peach, Mr. Parsons, Mr. Woodford .. MR.

CHAIRMAN :· All those against clause 2 please stand: The han. the ·Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Simmons), Mr. Hiscock, Mr. Flight, Mr. Tulk, Mr. Barry, Mr. Kelland, Mr. Lush, Mr. W. Carter, Mr . Gilbert, Mr. K. Aylward, Mr. Efford, Mr. Baker, Mr. Furey, Mr. Kelland, Mr. Decker, Mr. Fenwick, Mr. Long. MR. CHAIRMAN: We have twenty-four in favour of No. 64 R3442

clause 2 and seventeen against. The clause is carried. On motion, clause 2, carried. On motion, carried. cl~uses 3 and 4, Motion, that th.e Committee report having passed Bill No. 27 without amendment, carried. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Order 8. Bill No. 38. A bill, 11An Act Corporations Act11•• To Amend The (BillNo. 38). On motion clauses 1 through 34, carried. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Order 9 Bill No. 37 A bill, 11An Department Of And Northern (Bill No. 37) Act To Amend The Rural, Agricultural Development Act.11 On motion, clause 1, carried.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall clause 2 carry? MR. KELLAND: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The han. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want a few minutes particular bill, Mr. because of the impact it and the stated purpose L3443 June 18, 1987 on this Chairman, will have of the Uol XL minister when he introduced the particular bill to expedite the operations of the Rural Development Author·ity and to rnake it more efficient. There are many parts of the bill which I see the sense of and can support, but there are also parts which concern me.

I gave notice yesterday I would be introducing an amendment, or amendments, but I have decided, Mr. Chairman, to perhaps take a different approach, to discuss this in committee and perhaps ~all upon the good sense of the minister to consider c:t suggr:~stion or two that I am abou-t: to rnake to him. I particularly refE!r to subsection 3 of thaf particular clause, where the biJ.l speaks of the membership of the authority. Mr. Chairman, as membE!rs will SE!E!, there are two paragraphs which outline the membership.

Paragraph (b). of course, indicates that not less than three and not morE! than five be appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council to hold office during pleasu.re. Now,

whereas that is intended. I tJ.Jould guess, to be represent.3ltiVE! of l:he Province and areas of the Province, and areas of concern of the Province and not just· geographic, to .ensure that all applications to the Rural Authority are g:iven just and fair consideration as to their merits and whether or not they will receive funding, it strikes me that there is an oppoJntunity here for the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development to indicate to the· House of Assembly ctnd to the Province. and to those peopJ.e interested in rural development, he has ~n opportunity here· to allow. the greatest possible input into the decisions taken by the No. 64 R3443

.... authority. The public perception, Mr. Chairman, of the Rural Development Authority, as is the case with many other boards and so on set up by government, and appointments made by government, is that this is just another vehicle by which political friends can be rewarded. Now, I am not particularly saying that that is my perception necessarily or the perception of the official Opposition, but the public perception . is that here is an opportunity for the government to reward ·those people in our Province who support them politically and partisanly.

Now, if that is the public perception, and I am sure the minister and other members of the House have heard that particular view expressed and they have received complaints that that is the case, the minister does, if he would consider my suggestion, have the opportunity to do something about that and to show, in fact, that, as he claims, the Rural Development Authority is not an organization or a board set up by government to reward · political friends only, but, indeed, is set up to further enhance and make possible rural develoment in our Province.

The amendme!nt that I had intended to propose for this bill was that the minister and the government .would consider appointing, or having appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council, a member of the official Opposition to sit on that board. Had I proceeded along those lines, I would have provided the wording to make that amendment to the bill appropriate. Ho~ever, in consideration and after . discussion with rny colleagues, I have decided upon a L34-4-4- June 18, 1987 Vol XL different approach. I will put this suggestion to the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Aylward).

Even without amendment of his bill, it is possible, I ~elieve, to follow this suggestion. Would he consider arrangfng it so that a member of the official Opposition could serve as a member of the Ru~al Development Authority Board? The minister and the government are concerned about what the public perception is, and they certainly have to be concerne~ about what the public perception is. Forgetting all other considerations, to appoint a member of the official Opposition to the board would take away from the criticism that. it is a closed shop put in ·place to reward political friends. It would allow input.

We are also duly elected members of the House of Assembly who should have input into eVE!ry action, every expenditure of public money in this Province. This would provide a vehicle for that to be accomplished as well. If, Mr. Chairman, the mtnistE!r and other han. members of this House believe or want us to believe that. there is absolutely no . possibility at all of, to use a bit of hackney phrase, hanky panky or political reward, let me lay on him a ·situation that rnight be considered hypothetical or may not. be hypothetical, but to give you a . possible example.

Let us say a political friend and supporter of the· government operates a business somewhere in the rural part of our Province. Let us say a particular businessperson, who, for argument 1 s sake, is in the No. 64- R34-44

building supplies business,_ gets himself appointed, through his friendship with the minister and members of government, to the Rural Development Authority. He is in a position to help in the decisions as to who gets funding under the Authority. Let us say there are a number of applications for proposals for rural development which would require a considerable amount of building supplies in order to carry out the project. Now, the businessman I first mentioned is sitting on the Authority and he assists in making a decision to approve some of these applications.

He can then go back to his rural community and offer credit -he may have even pre-arranged credit -to the successful applicant in getting, let us say, $50,000 worth of building supplies to carry out his rural development project.

The businessman who has applied might respond and say, •well, there is a little doubt about whether or not I am going to get enough money to carry out this project. • The member of the board appointed by the minister and the government says, 1 But there will be no problem with that, I will make sure you get the money •, or 1I have already made sure you will ~et the money•, and he allows that successful applicant to draw down credit with him before any other supplier of that particular type of material has an opportunity to even discuss the matter with the man who has the application before the Rural Developme-nt AuthorJ ty< He guarantees a $50,000-·s«l'e for himself or some oth,.er figure, $50,000 is purely an example figure.

To me that is a totally unfair L3445 June 18, 1987 Vol XL and, to be quite frank, a totally corrupt method. Within the public perception, that is not just a hypothetical statement. The people out there in rural Newfoundland and Labrador believe that that is what is happening. They believe it. In fact, every single minister and member of this House, whe~her they are on the government side or on the Opposition side of the-House, has heard that. I would challenge the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. R.

Aylward) to get up in the House and dE!ny, for example, that he has heard that the Rural Development Aut.hori t.y has been used to provide poJ.itical plum. ·MR. BUTT: I never heard such a complaint. MR. KELLAND: The Minister of the Environment (Mr. Butt) indicates that he has never heard such a complaint. I suppose it is only to be expected because the Minister of the Environment very in~requently hears anything of importance in the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member•s time has e!apsed.- SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! By leave! MR.

CHAIRMAN: By leave. MR. KELLAND: No. 64 R3445

May I? MR. CHAIRMAN: You may continue . MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, the hon. the Minister of .the Environment is somewhat of a heckler of note, not in the class of some of the others, of course, but perhaps he would not want to descend to that level anyway. To just clue up, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the leave. I really believe that the minister here has an opportunity. He will have a chance to stand and respond to this.

I ask him if he will consider having appointed to the Rural Development -Authority a member of the Official Opposition to sit on a regular basis along with the other members of the Board, have input, and have some say in the decision-making of the Rural Development Authority to remove all or a considerable number of the complaints about it being an organizati6n set up to reward the friends. of · the government. If he would consider doing that, the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development, besides his many other attributes, would in all likelihood go down in history as the first.

The minister indicates he will probably go down amongst his colleagues a · lot quicker. However, he would go down in history as an extremely courageous and innovative minister.

The question is, of course, even though he would obviously have to admit that my suggestion is a logical one, one that makes sense, one that would give indication that his .department is straight and above board and deals with all L3446 June 18, 1987 Vol XL rural applications in a fair and equitable manner no matter what your partisan believes are, no matter what the believes of the applicants are, he would have to admit that that would remove a lot of the doubt that exists in the minds of the rural people of Newfoundland and Labrador. AN HON. MEMBER: They need it . MR. KELLAND: Yes, of · course, exactly .

The minister publicly stated that the whole idea of the · Rural Development i!luthority is to insure and help and facilitate rural development in our Province. It dOE!S not say a mE!ans by which we can facilitate the aims and objectives of our political friends and reward them for services rendered. Mr. Chairman, I t.~.Jould 1 :ikE! to challenge the minister to rise in his place, give consideration to the suggestion and go down in history as the most innovative and perhaps, knowing the context of the government, the most courageous minister I have seen in the House of Assembly. Thank . you, Mr. Chairman.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN ; The han. the Agricultural Development. MR. R. AYLWARD : Minister and of Rural, Northern If I guess would did thal, Mr. Chairman, I one consultation is that I not be scalped for it, maybe. No. 64 R3446

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member asked me a fairly pointed question. He tries to leave the impression that it is a widespread feeling around the Province that the Rural Development Authority is there to give political favours for people looking for loans, Mr. Chairman. He as ked me if . I heard it. before. Now, I must admit, yes, I have heard it. I have heard it on two separate occasions or from two separate groups.

One was in the committee system of this House when the hon. member brought it up before, he did mention it, and the other only time as minister away from the House of Assembly that I have heard it - and it is ironic the way it did happen and I cannot be too specific about the person who said it to me but if I did the hon. member would know - the only way it was put to me that the Rural Development Authority was being political is that we are afraid to refuse the Liberals while the Tories, in a certain area, cannot ge:t: any money. That is an actual fact. As a matter of fact, it was . in a Labrador region. Mr.

Chairman, the members of the Rural Development Authority include three min_isters, nof. three MHAs or three · individual people. There are three ministers, whoever happens to be minister of a department at a certain time. Rural Devel-opment, Forestry and Fisheries. The main reason for this originally is because we dealt with a resource loan board, This has been expanded somewhat . now but that was the initial reason for it.

The other pE!ople on the . board represent private business people or private individuals or L3 4-4-7 June 18, 1987 Vol XL different interests throughout the Province, one of whom lives in Gander. He is involved with the Rural Development Association or council which gives a broad outlook on the Rural Development side of it. There is a women from the Bay of Islands - Corner Brook · a·r e a . She i s a n u r s e , I be 1 i e v e by profession, but gives a specific flavour to the board.

There is a businessperson involved in crafts from the Clarenville area which gives another pers~ective on the board and there is an accountant from the Central Newfoundland· area on · it who give some business expertise to the board. The loans are not approved lightly, Mr. Chairman, and that can be borne out by the success rate of paybacks that the board has .. On 9ur Sawmill Assi~tance Programme, they get good scrutiny and our Sawmill Assistance Programme has something like ovor a 90 per cent pay back t.o that. So, if there were al legations of just political payoffs, Mr.

Chairman, you would not get such a success rate. The loans are considE!rE!d VE!ry seriously. There is a very serious review done of staff ~ithin the Department of Rural Development. There is a businE!SS division of our department, Mr. Chairman, that goes over this very thoroughly and they will give some recommendations to us on the 1,1iability.

We deal in tourism applica~ions with the Department of Development and the Tourism Advisory Board; in Fisheries we deal with a Fisheries Advisory Committee; in Forestry we have a Forestry Advisory Committee to give ~s advice as board members because we might not be experts in specific details. No. 64- R344'7

..... This is how the applications are approved, not on a political basis. I do not know the politics of the people on the board except three · members I could probably guess, the three ministers. The people are put on the board for specific reasons, to represent all around . the Province and ei t.her to represent a business flavour or a craft flavour or a tourism flavour, most of the things that we do deal with, Mr. Chairman. · The hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Simmons) mentioned the explanatory notes of the bill the other day when he spoke and T think the Minister of Justice (Ms Verge) explained it.

These explanatory notes are put on their by the Legislative Counsel. It has nothing to do with the minister. What he has explained here is the intention of this act to create a fund so the Rural Development Authority can be more efficient. Most of the changes there, Mr. Chairman, are the same as are in the other parts of our act, with a couple of small clarifications. One is that a certain amount of people would constitute a quorum, Mr. Chairman. I think I have ahswered most of the hon. member's questions. MR. KELLAND : Mr . Chairman . 'MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. the member for Naskaupi . MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. I do not think 'the minister answered my main question, whether or not he would consider appointing a member of the official Opposition to the board to keep it honest, I suppose we L3448 June 18, 1987 Vol XL could use that term . A few other things occurred to me when I was listening to the minister trying to explain his position on this. I would suggest to him that if he has only heard the complaint about political plums and political patronage twice since he has been minister, then he does not listen very closely to what the people in rural Newfoundland and Labrador are saying.

I have only be!en a member for two years and I have heard it many, many more times than that, and in districts 1.1.1hich would surprise the minister, and by people who would also surprisE! the minister. However, just . recently in the House, Mr. Chairman, the ministE!r ·made a Ministerial Statement in which he outlined that sixty-seven applications had recently been approved for rural development funding under the Authority. At that time I raised some questions with him in my response on whether or not he would provide a detailed list of those app~oved applications .

I would 1 ike to see, as the critic for his department, a detailed 1 is t which would include the names, addresses, and/or locations, and the description of the project. . Now, if we are to be a responsible Opposition reviewing what the government is doing and making constru~tive criticism and suggestions, then that sort of information should be in our hands. So, this would be the second time I have asked him. Would the minister also ·provide a detailed list of all applications, those that were turned down, which would include the names, the addresses, and/or locations, and the project descriptions.

Why No. 64 R3448

not? Why would he not? I am asking him again if he will do that. I am interested in his comments about a good record of payback. He uses that as an arguml?nt to indicate that there could be no political patronage or political re!Alard. MR. R. AYLWARD: I did not say that. MR. KELLAND: The minister suggests he did say that. He implied that. not MR. R. AYLWARD : I did not imply it either . MR. KELLAND: The minister implied, I believe, · that because there is s u c h a go o'd record of payback, it would m·ake it very unlikely that patronage could be involved here. In other words, what the minister said, Mr.

Chairman, is that if he used the Rural Development Authority to reward his Tory friends or political friends, the payback · might not be as great as it is right now. So I would have to ask the minister, is he saying, if that were the case, · Tories are not responsible people in the Province? If you carried out his implication to its logical conclusion, that is exactly what he was saying there. He can confirm that one way or the other. On the positive side of the bill, Mr. Chairman, and there are many positive sides, we could say putting the non-revolving fund directly to the Authority is a good moue.

I believe that that will expedite getting the funding out to those who have had their L3449 June 18, 1987 Vol XL applications approved. · There are other parts as well u.Jhich I will not go into. There may be other members who wish to .discuss this at this stage, Mr. Chairman . Thank you very much. MR. R. AYLWARD : Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR. R. AYLWARD: Minister -and of Rural, Northern One very brief comment. I J.eft an inference that becaL..lse of the success rate it showed ther'e was no po 1 i tical patronage .

The message I was trying to convey was that because of the successful pay-back of most of our programmes, it shows that they get very good scrutiny through the department; the recommendations are logical, they come from advisory committees we have throughout the public system, and they are dealt with on i:l business basis, not on any other basis. I do not care about political parties or anything. That is tht::~ impression I tried to leave, that because of a good pay-back, they are dealt wit .h strictly on a business basis. And it is a good loan programme.

We get better pay-backs than some of the finance companies and banks in the P~ouince because we are very careful about who w~ give the loans to, and we want to make sure that the business to be supported will be a good businE!SS for some part of our Province. . On motion, carried. clauses 2 and 3. Motion, having that the Commit tee report passed Bill No . 37 without No. 64- R3449

amendment, carried. MR . OTTENHEIMER: Order 10. Bill 43 . A bill, "An Act To Anomalies And Errors In Statute Law 11 • (Bill No. 43) Remove The Motion, tha:t the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. MR. OTTENHEIMER: I moue that the Committee rise, report progress ~nd ask leave to sit again. On motion, that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr . Speaker returned to the Chair . MR. SPEAKER: Order, ple·ase! The hon. the member for LaPoile . MR. MITCHELL: Mr .

Speaker, the Comrni ttee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report 8 i 11 Nos . 1 3 , 3 9 , 2 7 , 38, 37, and 43 without amendment and Bill No. 12 with amendment and ask leave to sit again. On motion, adopted. report receive-d and MR. SPEAKER : When shall these bills be read a third time? MR. OTTENHEIMER : ·Now, by leave. SOME HON. MEMBERS : No, no leave. MR. SPEAKER : The Chairman of the the Whole reports Committee that it of has L3450 June 18, 1987 Vol XL cons ide red ·the referred and has report Bill amendment. When be received? MR.

OTTENHEIMER: Now . matters directed No. 12 shall the to it him to · w-.i t h report On motion, amendments read a first and s e co .nd time. MR. SPEAKER : When shall · the bill be read a third time? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Now. MR. FENWICK: No leave. MR . OTTENH EIMER: Mr. . Speaker, we do not need leave. We understand the:~ hon. gentleman does not wish to observe what have been certain traditional procedures in this House, and that is all we can do about it. We do not need leave. MR. BARRY: They have no interest expediting Province. the business of in t:he MR.

OTTENHEIMER: That is quite true, no interest in expediting the business of the Province. He is probably aware his hon. ·comrade, last evening, would not agree to come back for three hours. I mean, I know everybody needs their sleep, but surely he could ·have sat until eleven o~clock! Order 11. Bill No. 2 . The adjourned reading of a Amend The Department Act, No. 64 debate on second bill, "An Act To St. John 1 s Fire 19'72 11 • (Bill No. R3450

2) . MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Mount Scio - Bell Island. MR .. BA ·RRY: Mr. Speaker, I adjourned the debate, and I had just briefly pointed out that we have received representation - I would assume all members of the House have received representation - from the St. John's Firefighters Association expressing concern about what is contained in this bill. We want to have some further information from the minister before we are going to be in a position to support the change in legislation that the minister is. seeking. Now the point made by the St.

John 1 s Firefighters Association is a reasonable one. They were before an arbitration board with respect to determining whether or not Fire Captains fell within the collective bargaining unit, in other words, was the union entitled to bargain on behalf of Fire Captains, and the question .arose, were Fire Captains management in such a way that they ·should not be part of the union?

The arbitration board decided that although Fire Captain·s exercise some of the duties of management, they did not e~ercise the types of duties that would require them to be excluded from the collective bargaining unit; they were not involved in the receipt of confidential information, they were involved in some discipline but not .the types of discipline that would mean that they should be excluded from the bargaining unit. L34-S1 June 18, 1987 Uol XL AN HON. ·MEMBER: In the .eyes of the arbitrator. MR. BARRY: In the eyes of the arbitrator .

So, there was an arbitration award and the question now is whether this is an attempt to get around the provisions of the arbitration award, to, in other words, subVE!rt and undermine the arbitration process in this Province . Because that could be the consequence of this pa~ticular legislation. MR. SPEAKER: . Order, please! I wonder would the hon. mind if I interrupted him moment? MR. BARRY : No, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: member for a There are three questions for thE! Late Show tonight.

The first is by the hon. mt:~mber for' Gander who is not satisfied with an answer he got from the Minister of Fisheries on surveillance; the seconcl is by the hon. the member for Windsor -­ Buchans who is not satisfied with the answer he got from the Minister of Fisheries regardtng river guardians; and the third is from the han. rnernber for Stephenville who is not satisfied with .an answer he got From the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies on youth unemployment. The . hon. the member for Mount Scio-Bell Island. MR. BARRY: So the position that we haVE! now, Mr.

Speaker, is, although ·this proposed amE!ndment does not refer to Fire Captains, it does refer, No. 64 R34S1

as members can see, to Shift Superintendents. Shift Superintendents are going to be excluded now, by legislation, from the bargaining unit. Well, as u..Jas set out in the directive of Fire Chief Stanley, dated March 4, 1987, a directive to all personnel, 11 Sometime ago I submitted a proposal wi t.h a view to the reorganization of the St. John's Fire Department. This proposal has been approved by Treasury Board ~nd the Lieutenant-Governor in Council has appointed fou ·r .additional Shift­ Superintendents.

As well, approval has ben granted for the positio.ns of nine additional Fire Lieutenants abolishing nine firefighters positions. 11 He goes on to say, and this is the crucial point, 11 This reorganization will result in the abolition of eight positions of Fire Captains, four of these positibns will be abolished with the appointment of four Shift Superintendents and an additional four positions will be abolished by attrition. Effective March 'L 1987, Fire Captains will no longer be assigned as officers in charge of East End and Kenmount Fire Stations.

These stations will be under the command of Fire Lieutenants only. The remaining four stations will continue to be commanded by a Fire Captain and a Fire Lieutenant.

The Fire Lieutenants assigned to East .End and Kenmount stations will be under the command .of a Shift Superintendent . and each of the two assigned to each shift will have command of three stations and overall command of six stations when required. 11 So the concern of the association is there appears to be an attempt to do by the backdoor what the L3452 June 18, 1987 Vol XL management of the fire department was not able to do by the front door in the arbitration process.

In other words, having lost the Fire Captains to the collective bargaining unit, they are! now taking the approach of doing away with the Fire Captains, abolishing the position of Fire Captain, bringing in new appointments of Shift Superintendents, but amending the legislation - this is the important thing - amending the legislation to specifically ·exclude Shift Superintendents .. If Shift Superintendents are doing the same work as Fire Captains, one has to ask whether they should excluded from the collective bargaining unit.

If they are not doing the same work, then thE! minister should explain what additional duties will the Shift Superinte.Qdents be performing that WOUld entitle or . jUStify thE! exclusion from the · collective bargaining unit. That is the problem in a nutshell, Mr. Speaker. We do not want to see the undermining or e!rosion of the arbitration process. In order to get our support for this .bill, the mi n i s t e r i s go i n g to h a v e to give us more information in her closing remarks than she has given in the opening. · MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek . MR.

FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Just to look over proposals that are this particular legislation, it is not No. 64 some of the coming from piece of a large - R3452

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I understand the hon. member has already spoken on this. MR. FENWICK: No, Mr. Speaker, I have not. I tried to speak to . it but it was ruled the official Opposition would have the first response to it. The hon. member for Mount Scio-Bell Island (Mr. Barry) was the only person 'who has spoken to it other than the :minister. AN HON·. MEMBER: He is correct. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: If you look at the legislation, Mr. Speaker, you see that there is only one thing being accomplished here. It is not a major revision of the structure of the fire department.

It is not. a case of trying to reorganize it completely as we are doing with other things, such as the Community Colleges Bill q.nd the Institutes Bill and so on . All it does is create a situation where the Shift Superintendents are outside the bargaining unit by statute and that is all it does. That is the only change it makes over the current legislation in there. So one asks oneself why this is the only thing that is being looked at.

When we receive a copy of an arbitration award which dealt with this matter at length, one becomes somewhat naturally suspicious that there may be an attempt, shall we say, by using legislation to achieve what could not be accomplished at the bargaining table and through the arbitration process. If that is the case, L3453 June 18, 1987 Uol XL then you wonder where the good faith bargaining is on the part of the provincial government.

Of course, we have not really seen an enormous amount of good faith ·bargaining on their part for the last several years anyway, so perhaps we should ~xpect this kind of approach to it. I would also like to table for the members in the House - I think all of them have received it so it is just a matter of reviving -peoples• memories - a letter dated March 4, 1987, from Mr. . Stanley, the FirE! Chief, a directive, it says, to all personnel. I·t says, 11 Some time ago I submittE!d a proposal tJ.Jith a vietJ.J to the reorganization of the St. John's Fire Department.

This proposal has been approved by Treasury Board and the Lieutenant-Governor in Council has appointed four additional Shifl Superintendents ... So here you have it, llllr. Speaker, an indication that four additional Shift Superintendents a1ne being created. As you continue on with the memo you see, 11 As well, approval has been granted for thE! positions of nine additional Fire Lieutenants, abolishing nine fire fighters• positions. This reorganization will result in the abolition of eight positions of Fire Captains. 11 In other words, Mr.

Speakrir, we have in exactly the same memo that indicates four additional Shift Superintendents, the · statement by the Fire Chief that eight positions of Fire Captains will be abolished. If we look at the arbi tra· ·tion award, the arbitration award was entirely involved with the question of whether or not Fire Captains should be members of No. 64 R3453

the bargaining unit or not. The arbitrato~ indeed ruled that the Fire Captains should be. So what we see at this point is an abolition of eight of these positions of Fire Captains and the establishment of four additional Shift Superintendents in exactly thE:1 same memo. Then, without any coincidence whatsoever, a piece of legislation coming down saying, by Statute, that the Shift Superintendents will not be members of the bargaining unit. Mr.

Speaker, it is very rare that such a conclusive case was made · where the Legislature is now being used to achieve in one form what could not be achieved through the arbitration process. I will table the letter itseif although I think all members have received a copy· of it. · Now, Mr. Speaker, in historic terms, services such as fire fighting cannot be allowed to take

part in · the same kind of collective bargaining process that other units have. In other words, Mr. Speaker, it is not our wish, and I do not think it is the wish of ~nybody, that the normal negotiating process, conciliation, then followed by the right on both parties to withdraw services or to lock people out, in other words, the strike lockout routine, this normal pattern is not acceptable when you have a service such as fire fighters.

So the legislation governing collective bargaining in absolutely essential services, such as this, includes the right to, what is called, 'interest arbitratio~· at the end of the process. The argument would be that the two sides would sit down and would negotiate, and when they · L3454 June 18, 1987 Vol XL came to a point where they had negotiated all that they could settle between the parties, they would then take what remained and refer that to an Arbitration Board, and no .t binding Arbitration Board, but an Arbitration Board because by its very nature arbitration is binding. It can be nothing else.

This referral then cpmes back from the Arbitration Board with the rules under which the parties will live. Now, we have clearly seen, through the combination of the arbitration award, the · memo from Chief Stanley, and the legislation, that there is an attempt here to withdraw the Shift Superintendents from the bargaining unit by legislation, and, in effect, have them replace the Fire Captains who, by arbitration, were deemed to be reasonable members of the particular bargaining unit itself. If that were to continue to occur, Mr.

Speaker, we would have an erosion of the arbitration process which is the · only guarantee that the fire fighters in this Province have that there will be an independent examination of their case and that they will have some chance to achieve tJJhat other bar·gaining units, per force, must accomplish by using · the conciliation and, then, the legal strike route. I would suggest to the han . minister, the President of Treasury Board (Mr. Windsor), and to the Minister of Labour (Mr.

Blanchard), if we continue on in this direction, then we lAiill see the individuals covered by a process which ends in arbitration thoroughly ·· dissatisfied with seeing it threatened by arbitrary actions on the part of the government through the Legislature and its ability to make laws. No. 64 R3454

Then the disrespect for the process may become so strong, we will end up with the unfortunate situation of seeing walkouts occur in essential services such as fire-fighting. So, Mr. Speaker, I do not consider this a light amendment at all. I think it is extremely important to realize that the St. John 1 s.

Firefighters, · Local 1075, clearly sees it as a means of the government achieving, through legislation, what it was unable to accomplish in arbitration and th~t their faith in the process, which is the thing that keeps collective bargaining alive in areas such as fire-fighting will then be extremely diminished and, as a result, we may see some very unfortunat~ actions occur. I would ask the government to be very careful in passing amendments whic ·h do this. I would also suggest that it is not an inappropriate time for government to see the error of its ways and to repent.

We will allow the minister to stand up and repent to any means that she wishes and to either wi th.draw the bill from the Order Paper and say, • It was a mistake and we should not have ~one it, 1 or to join with the official opposition and ourselves, who will be quite happy to vote down the piece of legislation and allow the situation tp remain where it is. I think, Mr·. Speaker, if that were the situation, we would protect the collective bargaining situation and we . would not be in a position whereby we would end up with a tremendous amount of mistrust on both sides as a result of it.

So, with those comments I will sit L3455 June 18, 1987 Vol XL down and allow the minister to give her final rebuttal and, of course, we will have some more to say about it in terms of rebuttal to her comments when we get to the committee stage. MR. SPEAKER: If the minister speaks now she will close the debate. The hon. the Minister of Justice . MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . The st'. John Is Fire Department indeed provides esSE!ntial se,rvices to the population of St. John 1 s and the periphe!ral communi b.E!S. The department has about 300 members.

It is a hierarchical organization with six different tiers, six different ranks. At the top there is one fire chief below which are two chief assistant chiefs. The thir·d tier is the rank of Shift Superintendent, a position added in 1983, a position clearly performing high level managerial and supervisory functions. The fourth level is that of Fire Captain. Next is Fire LieutE!nant and then the fire fighters. We have, as I say, one chief and two assistant chiefs. We have had four Shift Superintendents and we are moving to have eight Shift Superintendents.

We have had twenty-six Fire Captains and are moving to have eighteen Fire Captains. We are moving to add nine Fire Lieutenants and the complement of the department will be maintained at about 300 members. Mr. Speaker, this biJ.J. amends the st. Jolin • s Fire Department Act by adding four words, •and the Shift Superintendent 1 , so that. in

section 20 of the Act, which provides for the composition of No. 64 R3455

the bargaining unit and outlines those positions covered by the -·collective agreement, the Act will accord with practice. Since the position of Shift Superintendent was added in 198 3. that position has been part of management, it has not been in the bargaining unit. The position involves high level management and supervision and clearly belongs in management. ·Above the rank of Shift Superintendent are two Assistant Chiefs and one . Chief, three personnel out of 300 personnel. As members opposite have pointed out, a year or so ago there was an arbitration involving the St. John 1 s Fire Department.

Many issues were put before the arbitrator. The arbitrator ruled in favour of the union on one issue only and that issue was whether or not Fire Captains, of whom there were then about twenty-six, who had always been part of management and who had never, prior to that arbitration been, in the bargaining unit, should remain as part of management or come out of management and go into the bargaining unit. The arbitrator ruled in favour of the union and recommended that the · Fire Captains, of whom, as I say, there were twenty-six, come out of management and go into the bargaining unit. That has been done.

The arbitration award was accepted and that was done. So the Fire Captains are now in the bargaining unit along. with the · Fire Lieutenants, below them in the hiera~chical organization., and the firefighters. So the only personnel of the St. John 1 s Fire Department who, in practice, are now not in the bargaining unit are the Shift Superintendents, the Assistant Chiefs and the Chief. L3456 June 18, 1987 Vol XL Now, Mr.

Speaker, this amendment simply will make the act accord with reality and practice in spelling out that the Shift Superintendents, along with the Assistant Chiefs and the Chief, are indeed part of management and that ·is a reflection of the nature of their work. It is only reasonable that in a force of 300 members at least eleven would be part of management. Mr.

Speaker. the reorganization of the department outlined in Fire Chief Stanley's- memo, rE!ad by thE! member for Menihek. was done for sound management and financial reasons 1 it is to add to the number of Shift Superinten~ent positions, enough so that there will be two Shift Superintendents covering each shift so that one Shift Superintendent can be supervising three fire stations on each shift. We have six stations, two shifts, and we need in all, eight Shift Superintendents.

We are subtracting from the number of Fire Captain positions, from twenty-six to eighteen. but we are adding to the number of FtN~ Lieutenant positions by nine so there will be more opportunities for the rank and file firefighters to advance. Mr. Speaker, recently leaders of the firefighters union met with me, the President of Treasury Board and the Minister of Labour to express to us some concerns about the reorganization.

In that meeting there was no suggestion, not that ·I understood, that t:he reorganization was perceived by them as in any way undermining the arbitrator 1 s award and our acceptance of the arbitrator 1 s award. They did express, however, some reservations about the reorganization, which I and my colleagues undertook to assess. No. 64 R3456

But, Mr. Speaker, the content of this bill does not have anything to do with the arbitrator•s award. It simply says that Shift Superintendents, who are not addressed in the arbitrators award, will not be in the bargaining unit . Thr::y have never been in the bargaining unit. It will reflect pas ·l: practice, which is · that the Shift Superintendents as well as the two Assistant Chiefs and the Chief will be part of management. MR. BARRY: Would the question? MS VERGE: minister permit a Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would be happy to entertain a question from the member for Mount Scio - Bell Island. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Mount Scio - Bell Island. MR. BARRY : The minister is giving a very clear explanation, but it leaves one wi t h the que s t ion if t hi s has been the practice and if everything is going fine, why are we wasting the time of the Legislature in bringing in legislation that is not going to make any changes? Why is anybody concerned with having the legislation tied in with the reality?

When the minister says she did not get any representation with respect to this being an erosion of the arbitration award, the minister did . not receive a letter from the President of the Firefighters Association - did she? - which I understood was circulated to most MHAs, if not all. I will send the minister a copy if she did not get it.

L3457 June 18, 1987 Vol XL It says very clearly there, 1 It seems as if Chief Stanley with the approval of Treasury Board has now decided to take the rout e of abolishment of Captains and eventually making them Superintendents through taking them out of the bargaining unit . • This is Mr . Pii:t.man, the Firefighters• President. He also says, 1 When legislation is used to erode away bind ing arbitration, then I think this could set a dangerous precedent in today•s society•, and he makes a very good point there. Is the minister saying she has not received this letter from Mr. Pittman? MR.

SPEAKER : The hon . the Minister of Justice . MS VERGE : Mr. Speaker, I was re ferring to a meeting that I had, along with the President of Treasury Board and the Minister of Labour, quitE! recently, I think it was within the past two or three weeks, with leaders of the Firefighters• Union.

In that meeting thE!Y did indeed express concerns about i:he reorganization and about the reduction from twenty-six to eighteen in the number of Fire Captain positions at the same time as there will be an increase from four to eight in the number oF Shift Superintendent positions, and an increase by nine in the number of Fire Lieutenant positions. I did not understand from th eir presentation to us that they see that reorganization as any kind of erosion of the arbitrator•s recommendation, which was accepted and adopted. All I atm saying is that Shift Superintendents who were added in 1983, perform No . 64 R3457

top-level managerial functions. They are immediately below the two Assistant Chiefs. They have always been in management. They have never been in the bargaining unit. The act would have come in before 1983, and this is really a housekeeping amendment simply making the wording of the act accord with reality since 1983. Mr. Speaker, with those comments, I move second reading of the bill. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! On motion, a bill, 11

An Act To Amend The St. John's Fire Department Act, 1972, 11 read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No 2) MR. OTTENHEIMER: Order 12. Bill No. 6 . Motion, second reading of a bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Conflict Of Interest Act, 1973 11 • (Bill No. 6). DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance . DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, just a few words on this. This is the first amE!ndment to this act, although it was brought in in 1973. Since that time, there have been changes in other legislation that should be reflected in this act. For instance, The Revenue and Audit Act has now been changed to The Financial Administration Act, and the Comptroller and Deputy Minister of Finance has now bec6me the Comptroller General of the Province, that type of thing.

It is those changes that this L34S8 June 18, 1987 Uol XL amendment will take care of. Secondly, under the act as it presently stands, the Minister of Finance is responsible for the administration of the act. However, the conflict of interest regulations established under the act place the responsibility for those regulations on the Public Service Commission, which, of course, reports to the Minister of Public Works and Services.

So this amendment to streamline the administration of the act would put the responsibility for all aspects of the act under the onE! minister, that is, the Ministe1~ of Public Works and Services. The act rela ·tes more to personnel matters than it does to financia1 matters, so it seems logical to do that . The a c t a 1 s o c u r r en t 1 y co v e.r s a 11 employees except seasonal and contractual employees. Even though certain seasonal and contractual employees, such as forest rangers, can accrue pens~onable service, they have seniority and that typE! of thing, they are excluded from the regulations.

However, the regulations apply to certain categories of staff with even less status than those, part-time workers and so on, so there is a certain illogicality there, and the amendment corrects that situation by extending coverage to all seasonal and contractuaJ. employees, but then gi'ving the Lieutenant-Governor in Council the authority to ·designate non-applicability to certain groups. And that seems a more reasonable way of doing this thing, that everyone is includ ·ed but then certain people may be excluded, rather than in the act including some individuals with a great level oF status and No. 64 R34S8

responsibility others. and excluding Finally, there are a few other minor . changes encompassed in this amendmen 't: name changes. For instance, The Civil Service Commission Act is now The Newfoundland Public Service Commission Act. So that name change is affected. Then there are certain title changes and certain other positions are added. One of the positions that will now be encompassed under the conflict of interest regulations is the Senior Legislative Counsel. Of course, that was not included in the 1973 act because, persumably, we did not have such a person at that time.

So the bill brings up-to-date and makes the of the act more sensible, brings it up-to-date in titles and positions. second reading . MR. LUSH: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: the act coverage and also terms of I move The hon. the Minister for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH : Mr. Speaker, it makes sense to have the whole administration of The Conflict of Interest Act under one minister.

I suppose it matters little which minister is given the responsibility of carrying out the act as long as the act is carried out competently and carried out in a vigilant manner to ensure that all regulations under the act, and all the rules and regulations ~nder the act are followed to the letter of the law. Mr. Speaker, we find no objection L3459 June 18, 1987 Vol XL with bringing the entire act under one ministry as long as the rules and regulations, all which is encompassed under The Conflict of Interest Act, is carried out in an efficient and effective manner .

The other aspect, we understand, is to bring it up-to-date, to include more individuals, more groups, and this kind of thing. So, Mr. Speaker, on the face of it, we certainly see nothing wrong with what has happened here today. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the me~ber for Menihek . MR. FENWICK : Mr. Speaker, I think I would probably feel a lot bE!ttE!r if it. was another minister involved in the change to the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young). As a matter of fact, I have some strong questions about why we have the Public Service Commission in with the Minister of Public Works and Serv:Lces.

MaybE! we should be looking at moving the Public Service Commission to somE! other ministry. Mr. Speaker, I would like to adjourn the debate. MR. SPEAKER : The debate is adjourned by the hon . the member for Menihek. Debate on the Adjournment [Late Show] MR. SPEAKER: There are three questions for the Late Show. I call on the hon. the member for Gander. No. 64 R3459

MR. BAKER : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today, in Question Period, I had a question for the Minister of Fisheries. The reason I asked the question is quite involved . First of all, we were discussing the surveillance of, in this case. salmon rivers, and my question canie immediately after that. The minister was making comments concerning the concern about surveillance on salmon rivers, and I wanted to point out - AN HON. MEMBER: It has to be on Gander Lake. MR. BAKER: It was not on Gander lake.

On Monday, in Conception Bay, the minister and the federal minister, and I believe some other ministers, were out on the Leonard C~ley, which happens to be one of two patrol boats that we have to protect our concerns in the offshor·e in terms of fishing. I believe they went out te!n o 1 clock in the morning and spent the day and overnight out there. The thought entered my mind that here was a boat that was supposed to really be out doing patrol and doing surveillance, and

whereas it is nice if there is a meeting of Fisheries Ministers to take them on a cruise somewhere, it seems to me to be a little out of place to bring in the Leonard Cowley, a patrol vessel, to provide the ministers with, perhaps, a meeting - I suppose they had ~ meeting on board the boat - but also with a cruise ~round Conception Bay that I am sure they all enjoyed. The minister answered, of course, that there was a patrol boat, that a frigate was out doing the patrol work that the Leonard Cowley L3ll-60 June 18, 1987 Uol XL would ordinarily be doing. I thank the minister for his answer.

But it raises another rather interesting point, Mr. Speaker. How much did it c·ost to bring a frigate here and to. put a frigate out patrolling when we have two patrol vessels to do the job? I realize that one of them was in dry dock, which makes it all the more amazing that the Cowley would then be used for this. I understand, as well, that the Cowley is still in town. I b~lieve I saw her- this morning. The Cowley is still in town .for some reason or other. So, the Cowley was pulled off patrol services and at least prolonged her stay in St. John 1 s for one more day while . the minister and other minist