Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 106 (29th Legislature, 4th Session)

29-4-106

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

• TH E LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Tuesday, June 6, 1972 INTRODUC TION OF GUESTS 2713 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for . . . Oh, I beg your pardon . Just before we start could I draw the attention of the honourable members to the 'gallery on my left where we have 90 pupils from the Miller Collegiate , Grade 11, under the .direction of Mr . P .J. Voth and these students are from the constit uency of the Honourable Member for Rhineland. On be half of all honourable members, I bid you welc ome to the Assembly. COMMITT EE OF SUP PLY (CONT'D �) MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR . BARKMAN: You sound like a real healthy group. Mr . Chairman, I intend to speak only basically on one aspect of the Minist er's Estimate s. I have for some time wanted to make some remarks on what I think is of great concern to many of the people in Manitoba . Mr . Chairman , I'd like to address some remarks on the su bject of multi -culturalism and I feel that the Manitoba Government should be encourag ed, or should be encouraging our cultural diversity through the Department of Cultural Affairs.

I feel that our diversity and our individualism is basically also our stren gth and I think governments - and I' m talking to this government - should be doing all in its power to encourage the expression of our cultural mix. As the Prime Minist er said in a Winnipeg speech recently, and I wish to quote him on this, and I quote : "C anada's population redistribution has now become so balanced as to deny any one racial or linguistic component an absolute majority . Every single person in Canada is now a member of a minority group.

Linguistica lly our origins are one-third English, one-third French, and one-third neither . We have no alternative but to be tolerant to one another's dif ferences . Beyond the threshold of toleranc es we have countless opportunities to benefit from the richness and the variety of a Canadian life which is a result of this broad mix. The fabric of Canadian unity is as resilient as it is colourful . It is a multi-cultural societ y." This, I believe, is an important statement . It is a view that I think most Manitobans have or share and our identity as Canadians is again I say rooted in our diversity.

Diversity that is demonstrated by the cultural fact of Canadian life . I know that we in Manitoba can learn to rejoice in and not fear cultural diversities for we are still a province that is building and know that there are strengths to be gained, and truths to be learned from our multi -cultured inhabitants . Immigration to Manitoba from Europe and Asia has given us an unique ethnic and cultural mixture that has perhaps added a fibre to our society - a fibre which we should be bound and determined to preserve and not permit to be smothered.

You can name so many: Germans, Ukrainians, Italians, Hunga rians, the Dutch , the Jews, the Scandinavians , Chinese, Japanese , Icela nder, just to name a few. I want to urge this government, Mr . Chairman, to resist the pressures that would fuse us into a bi-cultural society . There are natural as well as political pressures which threaten us with the loss of our ethnic flavour, and I submit that these pres sures should be resist ed.

We will not benefit , I think all of us would agree that we will not · benefit from as similation but only from the development of a strong identity in the context of a multi -cultural society . My concern required me to bring these remarks before this Assembly . I have for some time felt that something should be· said and I want to ask the government to es tablish the political structures and the framework within which our cultural minorities can continue to flourish .

I believe that unless certain basic rights are nailed down by law it will be too easy for the ma jority to abrogate the culture rights of the minority and that is why I am asking what we should be presenting, and we will later on, in fact it is Bill 64 that just came up yesterday, a couple of days ago, the Bill of Rights which will be discussed during this ses sion . Mr . Chairman, Manitoba is not and has never been a melting pot . We've always glorified in the diversity of our people. We on the prairies perhaps have a richer cultural blend than the people of some other regions of Canada.

While we do not wish to see fragmentatio n into ghettos , we must protect, and we must encourage , those who wish to continue the development of thdr cultural diversity . That is why we require laws which will protect the minority . Mr . Chairman, those who are concerned with the protection and the preservation of French language rights should be ass ured that multi-culturalism is in no way, or in no way

2714 June 6, 1972 (MR. BARKMAN cont'd.) ... interferes with their legitimate aspirations. I want that very clear because I'm not making this - I'm not trying to say these words for that reason. I believe that French and English are the two major languages in Canada and none of us doubt this, and for that matter are the two basic languages in Manitoba and I think we agree that each is socially and quite politically significant. By creating a linguistic climate in which French can flourish the principle of diversity is encouraged. Those who dismiss the French fact also tend to dis miss all other cultural facts.

However in acknowledging the justice of the French fact however we in Manitoba should make it clear that there is also need to a means by which the third force of Canadians, many of whom live in our provin ce , can preserve their languages and cultures whenever they're gathered in -- especially when they're gathered in sufficient groups of their respective communities. Manitobans should be - that while the country as a whole can have two languages, and region or province within the country is I believe encouraged, or encouraging regional languages and is entitled to national support to accomplish their objective.

That is why I think the speech that was made not so long ago was so important for it gave the commitment of the Federal Government that the recommendations of Book 4 of the B and B Commission that so many of you have studied- I have not studied it intensely but it's finally we might say, at least that part of the B and B Commission has been improved. And those are the recommendations that promised Federal financial support to all of Canada's cultural groups.

I also think the Federal Government's public recognition of the cultural fact , and particularly perhaps as it applies in Manitoba is monum ental , a very monumental step forward, and I think it is to be applauded by all Manitobans , for that matter by all Canadians of goodwill. Let us now get down to a few specifi cs , Mr. Chairman.

Some of the programs that I feel should be developed, or encouraged, by the Manitoba Department of Cultural Affa�rs are: language interpreters in our courts and government institutions to aid those who are new to Canada and not familiar with either of the two languages; swift passage of the Bill of Rights , that I mentioned before , that would make it illegal to pass laws that make distinctions , or create preferences, on the basis of national or ethnic origin , and which would guarantee the free practice and enjoyment of one's cultural traditions; encouragement of such programs as the Avenue of the Nations in the new Convention Centre Complex perhaps; the construction of a cultural heritage park complete with a museum depicting the history of the cultures and the many racial origins of the people of Manitoba; perhaps more government assistance to those ethnic and cultural groups that are willing to share with the general community their customs and celebrations and such events as the Minister mentioned this morning , or this afternoon , one for example the Ukranian Festival at Dauphin -we can name others the Icelandic Festival at Gimli, and of course the Aberfest right here in Winnipeg - Octoberfest , I should say.

We look forward, Mr. Chairman, to the day when not only French and English are taught in our elementary schools but when students will be able to learn - I do not say necessarily taught in an elaborate way, but be able to learn the lnaguage of their parent. The curriculum in all schools should be expanded to include education for all our young people perhaps in the customs and the history , and the tradition, of all the racial and ethnic cultures that are found in our society.

And I think we must in particular make sure that all our young people are taught the aims , and the values , and the aspirations, of our native population , for only then can we achieve the understanding that I think we are looking for. There are many other areas where we have the ability to act, and there are many areas where we are currently acting for that matter.

I merely wish to affirm to this Assembly that we should be and are constant, con sistent in our belief that Manitoba can grow and prosper without the forced assimilation of the cultures that make up our society, that multi-culturalism is a worthwhile goal. Mr. Chairman , unity and uniformity are entirely different goals. In a world threatened by tribal anarchy there is no challenge more timely than to prove that people of different languages and people of different cultures can live together within a single sovereignty. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR.

ARTHUR MOUG (Charleswood): I just have one or two comments to make , Mr. Chairman , in regard to this. I was looking at the News Service item that came out in January in regards to Gimli and it looked like that there was pretty elaborate dollars being spent out there , and I wanted to ask the Minister for some explanation. There is $1 10, 000 for a marina that was going to accommodate 50 boats , and this is hard to say the advantage or disadvantages on that; $189, 000 to be spent on a fishing village, and there would be some park and tourist and

June 6, 1972 2715 (MR . MOUG cont'd) ..... information facilities, and some extra lands going to be involved. There 's also a paint-up, spruce-up, campaign going to be going on, a removal of eyesores for $100, 000. 00. Cu ltural historical alterations in a museum and the Viking Ship for $40, 000. 00. Lakefront development for 135.

That was the key figures in it with the exception of the trailer park to accommodate 150 permanent trailers, and I que stion if it was 150 trailers that were transient in their vein and coming in and out of the area, I would say that the $205, 000 would probably be money well spent, but when it's permanent trailer facilities to acc ommodate 150 trailers, I would like to know what the length of the permanency of the trailers are.

Is there any limit on how long one person can move in with one trailer, or are we only accom modating 150 families at the cost of something like $1400 each, and do they get that site first come, first served, basis, and when they have it do they keep it, and for how long ? I realize there is a very substantial grant from the Federal Government here; it's on a 75-25 basis with the Federal Government putting up 1. 1 million and the Provincial Government putting up 366, 000 .

I was wondering what other towns in the Provinc e of Manitoba are getting this considera tion, Gr is it simply the Town of Gimli and the Lake Winnipeg area that's mentioned here. It seems to me that it's a lot of money to go into one area, and partic ularly on the trailer site because I mentioned the 205, 000 going in simply to get 150 permanent trailer sites. One other thing I wanted to mention, Mr. Chairman, was grants that have been given out for different organizations, cities, municipalities, that have their annual do's, be it a summer festival or a winter festival.

I notice that it seems to me there's somewhat, bit of favoritism going towards the City of St . Boniface with their Festival du Voyageur. They operated in the early part of 1971 with a deficit of $114, 000 -I never did find the outcome of that, to find out whether or not the Provincial Government or the City of St. Boniface of that day, made up this deficit that the organization ended up with in their 71 operations. But I -- (Interjection)- pardon? I know. Neither do you. You take your shot of standing up . Don't keep talking by the seat of your pants.

And I can say, out of reading my comic books, I don't turncoat as does the Minister that's presently talking by the seat of his pants. After the statements you made about the Member for St. Boniface ye sterday, and the statements you turncoated and said to day, pleading to get back into that Cabinet, now we'll talk about people of credibility, now we'll talk about people of credibility. I'll get back to what I was saying, the $114, 000 that - they had a deficit in that area last year, Mr . Ch airman . It seems to have disappeared with everybody coming out happy.

The Provincial Government in the calendar year, or just over the calendar year, say February 71 to January 72 gave grants to the City of St . Boniface for the Festival du Voyageur, at least the Festival du Voyageur operation of $20, 000, and the Ci ty of Winnipeg gave them a grant of $35, 000. 00. I think this should be spread out a little more evenly to let say the Charleswood operation with their Ch arleswood in Motion days coming up at the end of this week .

They've got no grant at all from the Ci ty of Winnipeg so far, and certainly none . from the Province of Manitoba or the department that the Minister is responsible for. And when we asked for a small grant, even a $500 .0 0 dinner to be sponsored by the Provincial Government for the Dominion Playdowns of the Legion curling, we were denied that. And I think that it was interesting to note that the Free Press came out with an

article in the front page of the paper on March 30/72 saying the Voyageur Festival $329. 00 in the black. Well it's easy to understand if you are going to get that kind of money given to you . It's more than -i t would be about $1.5 0 per capita grant given to them. And somebody noticed it and wrote a letter to the editor in the Free Press shortly after their festival was over on April 12th and he said the Free Press March 30th had a headline "Voyageur Festival $329 .0 0 in the Bl ack" . Smaller print revealed that the festival received $72, 000 in grants from the Province, the Ci ty and Federal Governme nt .

Also that the $100,000 deficit of 1971 was erased; that more money is required for next year as they are expanding . It is obvious that any community program could go over their heads in debt and let the three levels of government bail them out, or would they ? A lot of community programs could show a $300. 00 profit if they received a $72, 000 grant. Now I have no objection to that, Sir . I would like to see governments spending money and putting it out towards smaller areas such as St . Boniface, but I also say such as Charleswood.

But to think if the Minister is controlling, or having any influence over the Cabinet to spend more monies into an area such as St . Boniface, and if they wiped out the deficit from the past year and also put in with the Ci ty of Winnipeg, which is all basically coming out of the same monies that Charleswood exists in, that they're getting $1 .5 0 per

27 16 June 6, 1972 (MR . MOUG cont 'd) . . . . . capita grant, I think it's unfair that it stops there. Something else I would ask the Minister to explain when he's up answering the que-stions that have been asked of him is in regards to the Hecla expropriation for the golf course and the park site you 're putting up there.

What changes are made in the expropriation proceedi ngs, if any - and I am quite sure by what I see in Order for Return that the land has been acquired in a good many instances -i f most of those that are involved in the expropriation, the land owners, if they're satisfied for the most part, and if most of the expropriation is finished with now. Thank you. · MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR . BEARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to take this opportunity of congratulat ing the Minister on a first run and the department of as he calls it, mixed up department.

In fact I was quite surprised when it included peanut butter and sausages. I just wondered what else is included. I am sure he'll do a good job and with this I thought maybe we'd pose a few questions for him. I would start off with parks.

There are a fair amount of parks in the province and I would wonder what the policy or what thoughts the Minister had in respect to federal parks; what his thinking is on the policy of the Federal Government parks in the Province of Manitoba, taking into consideration Riding Mountain Nati onal Park, their policy of doing away with the cottages and turning it into a widerne ss area.

It is not in keeping with the thinking of the many com muniti es that surround the area, and the many communities that in fact have supported Riding Mountain National Park and �ade it what it is today, and certainly knowing those people, and living there for many years, I am sure that I speak for them when I say they are very unhappy with what is taking place.

I know that nothing can be done about it on a provincial level but cer tainly I believe that protests should be put in to tlie Federal Government in respect to their thoughts on the federal policy respecting the Ri�ing Mountain National Park insofar as Manitoba is concerned. Now thinking again about the federal park polici es, there is some thought under way about a Northern Federal Park and this has been debated for some time, and if the Minister would consider some questions on that, and is it good for an area to have a Federal park? Would it in fact fence off a number of resources forever?

Would it really create extra dollars for Manitobans? Would it promote tourism and sportsmanship more than the area now enjoys? Would it be good for the province, Manitobans, and tourism, or would it only fence off a little more of Manitoba and take it out of the responsibility that the province has for that area and place_ it in Federal Government hands and take it away from the people of Manitoba?

I believe this is the concern of all the people in the north and you can find debates on both sides of the question and it is one which I think will have to be solved one of these days one way or the other, and I believe it can best be done by a decis ion being made as to what area the govern ment would give, or be prepared to hand over to the Federal Government for a park. On community recrea tion I think it's an important branch of this department. It is certa inly one that can reach into most of our small communities.

I think the financial problems · seem to be the hazards regardle ss of the size of the community and while it would appear that both our youth and adult rebel on over-organized society, we do find that people experiment with drugs and turn to drinking when they find that they have time on their hands, and I would hope that both the Federal and the Provincial Governments can offer additional financial leader ship in this area. The continuing security of York Factory remains a concern to inany of us.

I understand that our Federal Government allocates money acc ording to the number of annual visitors to a given area. Thi s does not meet the need of York Factory. While some security anJ some work is being financed, I would hope that we can be assured that this part of the history of Western Canada can be further protected. Lastly, roadside parks are a new and growing tourist industry that promises to outgrow most other aspects of the tourist industry. Camper trailers provide a new industry and the user requires a place to park.

It is usually a means of family travelling and they require space to park and use water and sewer and electrical outlets. I would hope that this government could encourage business people to develop more of. thi s type of accom modation so that we can meet the needs of this new approach to vac ationing in our province. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR . BOROWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I'll be very brief, I really hadn't intended

June 6, 1972 2717 (MR . BOROWSKI cont'd) .. .. . to speak, Mr. Chairman , but I just remembered I had a couple of beefs and I thought that this would be a good opportunity to bring them up. One of them has to do, Mr. Chairman , with grants to the various organizations around the province.

I notice that every year there 's bigger and larger and more grants given out to various organi zations, and yet good ones like the Trappers Festival , the Flin Flon Trout Festival, the Dauphin Ukrainian Festival, and now the new one that's just set up in Thompson, the Miners Festival, which I understand will be the largest in the western hemisphere, which is going to be, I understand, opened by the Minister in July, the 15th I believe , and incidentally I am challenging the Minister to a drilling contest at that festival.

But my complaint, Mr .C hairman, is - and also the Member for Roblin -m y complaint is, Mr. Chairman , that it seems that we are locked in on a donation that hasn't changed for years and I ask the Minister to consider increasing the grants by 50 or lOO percent.

I don't know when they were increased but I understand some of them haven 't been increased in many years and it seems to me that these get togethers do a great deal of good for the community and the province, and some of them ·are great tourist drawing cards, and it seems to me if the Minister is going to be serious about promoting tourism, not just outside of Manitoba but also outside the country, that he should make these things here as succ essful as possible . It requires a great deal of money, Mr.

Chairman , to run these various festivals , so I hope that the Minister will find a little more money in his budget, if not this year certainly next year, to put into them . It seems to me that if we can find money to spend on places like Hecla Island -I believe $7 million -w hich in my opinion is nothing but a glorified swamp, a white elephant without a head . If this government can find $7 million plus to spend devel oping that, surely they can find some money to give to these various organiz ations, but equally , Mr. Chairman, to do a little up north.

I don't like to criticize my colleagues but the previous Minister seemed to suffer from geographic astigmatism . I couldn 't get him to spend any money up north and in desperation after touring all the major northern communities a,s the Minister of Highways, and looking at the tourist facilities, I was ashamed to you know even discuss the matter when I found for example in Gillam there was two tables . Here there was a comm unity of about 2500 people and there were two picnic tables; there was no fireplac es.

Thompson on the other hand has had some improvement but still on the weekend we have people waiting with their weiners and hamburgers and stuff, lined up trying to get to a fireplac e. It costs, I understand, about $65. 00 to put up a fireplace and I hope to heavens that this Minister will have a little more imaginati'on and get up north and tour the areas, find out what's going on, find out what the needs are , and start spending a little money. ·we are not asking for grandiose schemes like Birds Hill Park or Hecla Island, or some other expensive project, just little things . The people I believe , Mr .

Chairman, are just a little bit sick and tired of bigness , you know, grand schemes, vote catching type of schemes. People up north don •t want big schemes. They . want wee little things, consideration. A little bit here of that $7 million that's being spend in Hecla, Mr. Chairman, I suggest to you that you could develop parks in every major community in Manitoba, and still have money left over.

I'm asking the Minister to reappraise his priorities and the department priorities, and I' m sure they are not the same yet but I hope they will be after he has been in his portfolio for awhile , that he will set the direction and decide where the money is to be spent, and spend a little money up there .

I see every day announcements made that we are giving money to the Women's Lib and we are building these glorified barns for the hippies to travel across Canada, but somehow, somehow it seems that when somebody asks for a buck for some good project, there just isn't the money, and I ask and I plead with the Minister to really seriously look at the north. You know and I know, Mr . Chairman, that people, tourists do not come to look atour crocuse s, or ourwild oats, or our rhubarb patches, or whatever you have here; they come down here basically to fish, to swim, and to participate in water type of sports.

Well where is this plac·e, Mr. Chairman? It sure as heck isn't down south, it's up north. And yet the government seems to think and .act as if northern Manitoba didn't exist - and I' m not talking about the other departments, I'm simply referring to the Touris Branch, because I have praised the government on many occ asions for developing the north, but in the tourist area it's lleen the forgotten child . The previous government neglected it; this government has nothing to be proud of in that area . I hope that the Minister will look into the question and see if he can find a little more money for us .

I am not going to deal with the censorship question , although it does fall under the Minis ter, I notice there are innocent kids up in the gallery . I don't want to say anything that will

2718 June 6, 1972 (MR. BOROWSKI cont'd) .. .. . offend them, so I will deal with that when that bill comes into the House. l\IR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourab le Minister ... MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to answer some of the questions now. can ask my honourable friend from Thompson not to worry because our priorities are certainly up north considering that in the five months that I've been in charge of this department I've had very little occasion to travel through the province - this is something that I hope to do after the session is over - and I can tell my honourable friend that I've had four trips up north.

On the first month we took all the directors of the different branches and we went to Thomps on , to Churchill - there was no fishing at 40 below zero, not for me anyway. _..:(Interjection)-- Well they didn't bite me. Anyway we were in Thomps on, in Snow Lake , in Flin Flon, in The Pas - (Interjection)-- no we missed Lynn Lake. We were going back; we couldn't land there because of a storm. I can tell you that we had a very good meeting with the - they were open meetings. We met with the different people interested in parks, in tourism and recreation.

We have learned quite a bit and I can assure you that our priorities are up north. We asked for more people in recreation; we have one more consultant - that's a consultant for the north. We had one more and he's going up north. We had one consultant also for the Cultural Affairs, and that person will be situated in the north and hqpefully he will be somebody from the north. We have done the same thing in tourism. We have an extra man only. We were granted only one man at Estimate time , and they are all up north. Fairly soon they will be headed by Gordon Taylor, Mr.

Gordon Taylor of our Research and Planning Branch who will assess the ·information that we already have and that then we'll be able to move in the north. I said this afternoon - I mentioned the games. Well we're starting on the north - there will be northern games this year - to help these people. So we certainly know that the north has been neglected in the past; we feel that the priorities should be up north, and we'll do everything we can to assist these people.

We've invited many of their leaders in recreational fields to come to Gimli also with the rest of the people in education , and we are aware of what is needed up north , and I can assure my honourable friend that we won't forget the north. As far as grants, this is something that we hope to have a clear cut policy on gra:1ts. It has been a little difficult. Now we have grants that are the maximum of $25 00. 00. This went to Thompson and to The Pas and Trapp-ers Festival , and the others, but we'll have another look at that. This is something that we hope we could increase also.

Now while we're talking about grants -m y honourable friend from Charleswood mentioned the Festival du Voyageur and he mentioned the fact that there seemed to be favouritism shown the City of St. Boniface , and of course it's no secret that I am the Member from St. Boniface. So I would like to answer my honourable friend to tell him that in 1970 or 71 the Fesitval did lose money. I had nothing to do with it; I wasn't a member of the Cabinet. I can tell my honoutable friend that the City of St.

Boniface - at the time it was still the city , it was before January 1st - made a request; they wanted to cover all the deficit because some of the businessmen of St. Boniface were affected.

The Minister in charge of Urban Affairs at the time -o f course you remember that any money that they had had been frozen; they had to have permission from the government, and the Minister, the former Minister of Urban Affairs, the present Member from Inkster , devised a method that was acceptable by all, it was a way to involve differen; levels of govern ment, and the province decided that they would help to the tune of a maximum of $15, 000 if the two-thirds came from other areas , from other sources, and that enabled us to get $15 , 000 from the Federal Government and the city of course was given permission to pay their share of the 15 , 000 from the amount that they had.

They could have very easily paid the full amount from there , and who would have lost out? This money now is in the coffer of the Cit:r of Winnip eg , whatever they had. So I want to reassure my honourable friend that there is no favouritism in there at all; it is something that will be probably in co-operation with the people from Manisphere. They're talking now of a Festival du Voyageur, the Winter Festival for the city, the city at large , and we certainly will help them promote this.

It is not only a tourist attraction, just an ordinary festiv al, but there is the cultural aspect also and we intend to keep on helping these people but not at the detriment of anybody else. I 'm sorry that my honourable friend mentioned again this dinner that was refused. I told him once , I'll tell him again, this has nothing to do with this department. There is the Hospitality Committee that is chaired by Mr. Benson and this department has nothing to do with it, and I gave the reason why it was refused. --(Interjection)-- What high school girls? I 'm talking about the Legion thing now.

June 6, 1972 2719 (MR . DESJARDINS cont'd) ... .. I don't lmow what he means by high school girls. There are ce rtain rules that are being followed, they are followed by everybody, and we looked at this again if we could -- if we feel that there is something that is not adequate; if we feel that some people are not getting their proper share , we will always be ready to change this. I think that it 's the last thing that should be done accuse this department and this government of playing politics on this.

Beca use everything we've done and every grant, we've shied away from this, including the capital program that we have , we are trying to have this come by the municipalities themselves and make their rec ommendation . There is no doubt that we will always be criticized; we accept this critic ism . It's better than to stay in mothballs. We're going to do things and we'll be criticized, but I can assure those that want to believe us that we will not play favouritism . -- (Interjec tion)-- I can't understand . -- (Interjectio n)-- That is uncalled for, Sir . This is most unfair.

I 'm not going to start in name calling and in this question I'll tell my honourable friend that yes we believe in the bilingualism, and we believe in multi-cult uralism and this leads me -- the statement made by my honourable friend from "La Verendrye , and I have no hesitation in saying that I agree with everything that has been said, and I was going to say that I' m sure the government does, but I was going to say that probably all the members of this House did, but after the remark from the Honourable Member for Charle swood I' ll let him speak for himself .

We certainly believe in this question of multi-culturalism; we don't believe in the melting pot. We feel that you can have unity and diversity and we'll do everything in our power to do more than pay lip service to this. You lmow that we 've had first reading of a bill that would enable to change the Act of the department, the departmental Act, enable us to name a multi cultural council , and we intend to start on this fairly soon, and then we will have a meeting of the multi-c ultural group represented; there' ll be delegates sent by the different organizations , different cu ltural groups.

I mentioned this afternoon that we hope to co -operate with the Federal Government in opening this building, the former Bank of Commerce, Imperial Bank of Commerce, and we hope that we will be going on the right track. I might say that some independent observers were in Toronto last week where they had - in Heritage Ontario - and they tell us that Manitoba is away ahead. They cited Manitoba as an example in the field of multi-cultu ralism , and I can tell my honourable friend that I thank him for his remarks, and he can rest assured that this is the direction that we are moving on without any hesitation at all.

Again I' d like to invite all the members of this House to come in to Folklorama and see the different pavilions that we'll have around July. We'll have all the different groups and I think that it would be worthwhile. My honourable friend from Charleswood also spoke about Gimli. I can tell him that Gimli was a different situation . This was the area where we -- the Gimli air base was closed and some 250 civilian staff were left unemployed, and if you remember the Minister of Industry and Commerce induced the Federal Government to come in on a program.

The Federal Government paid 75 percent of a total of $1, 466, 000 . 00. Now this is being done . It was slow in starting because we had to have the okay of the different -- the Town of Gimli and the Rural Municipality . It's true that we have a trailer park that is going on now. It'll be for transient only so you won't be staying there at that park for a long period of time. We 'll take care of that on Grindstone Point in Heel a Island. There 'll be some change in the town.

The historic works include provision of a building for the Icela ndic Cultural Corporation Museum and there is -- involves the construction also of a typical Viking sailing ship. At the present they're moving their -- working on the Gimli Arena. There will be some improvement made there and the Sandy Hook Community Club. Part of the programs have been approved already. It is not something that is chosen by the Provincial Government but by a committee of the .. people of Gimli , and we're progressing in this also.

As far as Hecla Island is concerned my honourable friend should remember that the Land Acquisitio n Branch comes under the Attorney-General and this department has nothing to do with the acquiring of the property. I can say that we 've had meeting s with the people of - many meetin gs with the people of Hecla Island, some of them with just the summer residents . I think that they're satisfied with the offer that we gave them and the same thing with the permanent residents .

We are ready to give these people a lifetime lease back on the island and I think, that if any of them are not com pletely satisfied, and this is only what's expected when your property is taken away from you, you always want more money; you always feel it's worth more , and this is something that is under the Land Acquisitio n Ac t.

2720 June 6, 1972 (MR . DESJARDINS cont'

d) I think I answered my honourable friend from Churchill about the community recreation in the north and the campsite parks. Well we are progressing in this also. If we could ever leave the Minister's salary I'll have the members of my staff -- I might be able to give you a little more details on that . We have also the trailer park. We have the new trailer park going on in Pinegrove Halt.

This is somewhere near Hadashville and Richer and it'll be a combined transient campground of 110 units; the wayside picnic areas and two highways rest areas all located within the immediate space of the newly four lane Trans-Canada Highway between Hadashville and Richer. Pinegrove Halt is unique not only in loc ation and de sign but also in the fact that the rest areas will be snowplowed and the washrooms heated for winter use by traveller s, and will be operational this year. So we're moving in this direction also.

Now back to my honourable friend from Roblin who was the first one up and unfortunately I 'm only getting to him now. I'll try to give him some of the information that he wanted. He wanted to know about the young people that are employed by the department, the students. Well we have a total of 526 students working for this department during the summer, so I think that we're helping out in this respec t, and they're certainly helping us . I hope that my honour able friend saw this walking tours that we have. We have some charming looking young ladies who will help the tourists.

I think it was my honourable friend who was talking about killing them with kindness, no tender loving care . So this is what we 're trying to do with the tourists. We'll try to give them the information. We have personalized letters going to them and we are getting replies that they feel that all the provinces should do like Manitoba.

They feel that we are closer to them instead· of just sending them some folders, and once they come here we 'll try to give them the information at the Ontario border, or at the Saskatchewan border, and then we' ve opened other sites - I think this is something that the Honourable Member from Morris wanted. He wanted something away from the city. We've got a long way to go in this.

We want to improve that also, but in the city also beside in the Parliament Buildings, we've opened new tourist information bureav at the Polo Park, we'll have at the main shopping centre at Polo Park, at the airport, at Eatons and the Bay, and we'll try to help. We are staffing thi� with young students also for the summer . As far as our dealing with the agencies and the regional tourists I might say for the first time this year we are giving them conditional grants of $1,500 each, and then there are other matching grants that we will have in some special programs with them.

We will also make a fair contribution to the Winnipeg Tourist and Convention in order to help them promote tourism also and to sell this Convention Ce ntre. I hope my honourable friend from Thompson is sleep ing when I mention that . We also help the different Chambers of Comme rce . It's not very much but we 're helping them to sell their communities with grants from $200. 00 to $400 . 00; and we are also working quite clo sely with the regional groups and the community groups, the agencies .

We have the annual and regional meetings , and I might also inform my honourable friend in the same Act that I mentioned a few minutes ago, we are proposing a change that will enable us to name a tourist advisory council and we intend to do this in the near future . We are also co -operating with the Federal Government , who are doing the same thing, and they wanted us to send them a few names. We've also had seminars on marketing, hospitality, selling , and so on, and we invite the people in the industry also.

We ask them to join us in mall promotions in the United States, in Bismark and Gra nd Forks, and so on, and this is also doing quite well. I have some very good news also -- this is another que stion my friend wanted to know, how we measure the statistics. Well I can say to my honourable friend that the visitors to the province, let's see , foreign visitors are measured by Statistics Canada. DBS, and we accept these as accurate . These are the border crossing counts.

Interprovincial travel is measured by sample traffic counts and personal interviews by the Deparment of Research and also by a new Federal Government Canadian survey . Now I have good news . ·I'm pleased to advise that the latest tourist information has just been recei ved from Stati stic s Canada which shows that Manitoba has a 28 percent increase in the number of U ,S. vehicles entering the province for the period January 1st to April 30th . This is by far the best entry increase shown by any province in Canada for the same period .

It is also worthy of note that this four-month period represented 19 percent of our total U. S. vehicle entries last year so that the increase during this year is not an insignificant one . This fine increase and the fact we are getting through to our next market area, particularly the winter promotion which we have conducted in the last two years are now paying off, and I have

June 6, 1972 2721 (MR . DESJARDINS cont'

d) the table here from Statistic s Canada and for the four months, for instance, New Brunswick has gone down, decreased; Quebec had a decrease; Ontario a decrease; Manitoba went from 60, 071 to 77, 082, which is a 28 percent increase. Saskatchewan had a decrease; Alberta had a very very small increase , and British Columbia a decrease, and the Yukon had a small increase , so Manitoba had a large increase and practical ly all the others stood fast. --( Interjection)-- I don't know, I guess it's socialism. And I think that my honourable friend quoted the figures, the money spent by the tourists also.

I think that in 70 there was $135 million. We feel that in 71 it will be 141. 50, so this is also an inc rease. In the province travel -- this is something that my friend said that had been going on for two years. It's been going on only for one year, so it is quite difficult to measure anything. From the survey that we've made , and so on, we know that it is a success, but it will take from three to five years before the travelling habits of the people of Manitoba is changed and we hope that they change in this direction , that they'll go up north and in other parts of our province.

My honourable friend talks about historical sites, and I must admit that he 's right. We are quite concerned because very little has been done by our department and by the govern ment in the past. This is something though that will change. We're concerned about this and we have plans to speed up the historical site marking program, and also we have set up a

section within our department to prepare a historical program that will include researching the significant sites, preparing interpretive or rec onstructive plans and building this into a meaningful development program. We are working -- we are going into this -- we admit that very little has been done in the past but we don't intend to ,.-w e have quite a forceful advisory committee on this who is pushing us all the time, and we hope that we will improve. As far as the parks, the cost in the parks, the fees, well this is something that we have to be very careful.

My honourable friend tells us that we must kill the tourist with kindness and as a former colleague of mine used to say, get them to linger a little longer in Manitoba so there fore we don't want to price ourselves out of the market, and then let 's remember that this is good to help tourism to be kind to the tourists that visit this province , but also we must remember that we owe a cer tain amount of facilitie s, and so on, and we must help the people of Manitoba, and this is what we are doing. I think that we have to be careful, we don't want to overcharge.

My honourable friend asked me a personal opinion to legalize gambling. Well legalized gambling sounds very good, and there is no doubt we have the lottery now which is a form of legalized gambling. This is something that could bring in money, that we could throw back in sports, or help in housing, or any other thing, but thi s is something that we are not going to be rushed in because it has to be controlled.

If we ever do we '11 have to make darn sure that it is controlled and this is once that the government would have to control and the govern ment might not have all the ability to operate these things and we are free of the -- I say free, maybe there are some undesirables in this country but we are not afflicted like most of the cities in the States with the Mafia and the crime ele ment and there is no doubt that when you have legalized gambling that you will a'ttract crime and thi s is something that we have to be careful before we move. This is my own personal opinion I might say.

Now as far as the National Park , thi s is another thing. We want a second National Park but we are not going to be rushed into this. This is something as the First Minister said we can develop provincial parks. I don't agree with my honourable friend from Thompson when he knocks Hecla.

I think that Hecla will not be a white elephant; I think that in a few years - there is need in that area and as I said this afternoon we have to provide for leisure time of our people , I hope that we'll have more Heclas and more Whit eshell areas in Manitoba and I hope that we 'll have something like that up north in the not too distant future. --(l nterjec tion) - Yes, we have our priorities in the north, we want to develop the north, but we don t have to knock Hecla for that. Hecla is going to take care of itself.

It's something that is needed and I think it 's something --I hope that I'm right and this is something that we will prove will be beneficial for the people of Manitoba. I think these are all the -- I tried to answer all the questions, Mr. Chairman. The mosquito problem doesn't only bother the tourist it bothers the Minister of Tourism , Recrea tion and Cultural Affairs I can tell you and I don't know who is in charge of mosquitoes. Thank you. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle -Russell.

272 2 June 6, 1972 :MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell) : Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have just one problem I would like to bring to the attention of the Minister and it deals with the operation of houseboats in provincial waters and provincial parks. It appears, Mr . Chairman, that the cottage owner has to pay his regular fee for the privilege of establishing his cottage.

The trailer people have to pay for their camping privileges but apparently a houseboat owner can dump his liouseboat into any lake, he doesn't have to pay for any parking privileges anywhere and also, Sir, it is the opinion expressed by some people that it is doubtful whether the regulations that exist at the present time are enforeable insofar as the operation of houseboats and their compliance with the ordinary laws regarding pollution and waste disposal and such like.

I would like to ask the Minister if he has any intention of bringing forward legisl ation at this session which would deal specifically wit h thi s problem so that what appears at the present time to be a loophole in the law will make those people that operate within the provincial parks all conform to the standards that should normally . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The hour being 9:00 o' clock the time has arrived for Private Members' Hour. Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker , the Committee of Supply has directed me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR .

SPEAKER: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Logan. :MR. WILLI AM JENKINS (Logan) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honour able Member for Ste. Rose, that the report of the Committee be received. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. PR IVATE MEMBERS' HOUR :MR. SPEAKER: Tuesday night Private Members' Hour. First item Private Bills. Proposed motion of the Honourable J.l.?:ember for Inkster. Bill No. 26. MR . GR EEN: Mr . Speaker , may I have the indulgence of the House to let this matter stand? (Agreed) :MR.

SPEAKER: Proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Radisson. Bill No. 60. Stand? (Ag reed) Pu blic bills. Adj ourned debates on second reading. Proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Rupertsland. The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR . JORGENS ON: Mr. Speaker, I won't go back to the private bills but the Member for Radisson who was over here trying to get some illuminating information, is now back in his seat. Perhaps we'll be able to proceed with his bill. MR . SPEAKER: Go back to Bill 60? (A greed) The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR . SHAFRANSKY presented Bill No. 60,

an Act to Incorporate Transcona Country Club, for second reading. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR . SHAFRANSKY : Mr. Speaker, I was asked to introduce this bill on behalf of the members of the Transcona Cu rling Club and the Transcona Golf Club who a1·e planning to join to form the Transcona Country Cl ub.

The Transcona Curling Club is fairly old and has to be rec ontructed and they find that the cost of rebuilding it at the present location is going to be such that it is not going to be too feasible so they finally got together with the Golf Club which has fairly large spacious area around the present clubrooms. There is adequate room to ex- . pand the type of building that would include facilities for curling in the wintertime aPd golfing in the summertime. One of the big problems they find that it is difficult to keep staff, to find staff every time the season change s.

The Transcona Cu rling Club had a problem finding an icemaker, the Transcona Golf Club has a problem of finding a greenskeeper and they find that if they join the two clubs together it will be possible to keep the same person who generally works in the summertime with a golf club, in the wintertime with the curling club that they would be able to retain staff on a year-round basis, give --(Interjectio n)-- Pardon? No, they'll be increasing employment opportunities.

Because of that fact that they'll be able to keep the se club facilities open year round, they 'll be able to provide much better service and at the same time give the people of the community of Transcona that type of faciliti es which are going to be meeting their requirements. The Transcona Country Club is going to be primarily a workingman's club . It 's not I think --(Interjecti on)-- Pardon? The fee? I' m not sure about

June 6, 1972 2723 (MR. SHAFRANSKY cont'd) ..... the fee but it is not anything like the Niakwa or the St. Charle s, I assure you of that. They find that in order to ... MR . SPEAK ER: Order, please. MR . SHAFRANSKY : They find that in order to get adequate financing it was necessa ry to get a private bill passed in order that there be that type of continued executive responsible for whatever mortgages that is incurred by the club. I hope that thi s meets with the necessa ry explanation and that the members would let it proceed to committee stage. Thank you. MR .

SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Rupertsland. The Honourable Member for Radisson, Bill No. 34. MR . SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Speaker, I beg the indulgence of the House to have the matter stand. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 41. The same gentleman. MR . SHAFRANSKY : Stand? MR. SPEAKER: Proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Radisson. The Honour able Member for Emerson. Bill No. 43. MR. GABRI EL GIRARD (Emerson): Mr.

Chairman, over the past few days I've had a chance to read over the bill and I'm satisfied that the explanations given by the Member for Radisson were in fact the ones that should have been given. The bill in itself is designed to bring into line the present requirements of the Manitoba Trustees' As sociation and when we consider what the trustees ' organizations were of the past it's only normal and natural that this kind of Act would have to be neces sary.

I would suggest that the pressure and the intimidation and the harassment that the Mem ber from Radisson had to urge me to bring this matter to second reading was unjustified be cause of the urgency of the bill not bei ng such that it needed that kind of harassment. However, I accept it because I know it was all in good faith. Thank you. MR . SPEAKER put the question. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a few comments in connection with Bill 43 which proposes to set up the Manitoba As sociation of School Trustees.

The school trustees have had an association for many years and the last bill that was passed was passed in 1965 when the two organizations, the Urban School Trustees' Association and the Manitoba Association of School Trustees merged and now we find that they're coming in and proposing a new Act. I don't think the member sponsoring the bill gave too much information on the second reading and on the introduction of the bill. I feel that most likely there are reasons for bringing this bill forward at this time.

The original association was part -of the Manitoba School Trustees' Act, this is going to be a special Act now. I find that the objects of the association are very similar to that of the previous organization and I would just briefly like to comment on them. The first one states, "the first object is to promote and advance the cause of education in the province." This is very good in my opinion and we need an organization to do this. However, recently I think all members of this House got letters from the various division boards opposing aid to private schools.

I 'm just questio ning this aspect of division boards coming out with a statement of that kind when here in the objective , the very first objective is to promote education and yet they are coming out opposing the private schools. I think this is rather unfair that our division boards should come out opposing our private schools in this province. Certainly I think our private schools are doing a commendable job and that I think this is uncalled for of the division boards to come out in that respect.

Certainly if some assistance should be given to these schools it would not lessen the support to the public school system as such and that any monies given to the private schools would be over and above; and certainly as has been stated by the Premier. that thi s would not be the same type of assistance or same amount as that made to the public school system at the present time. And even here in the public school system we have various amounts of support and the public system is not even supported on an equitable basis.

So I think there is lots of room for the Trustee As sociation to advance education, to advance equality , to advance equality of opportunity t-o the stude nts of this province because we have not got equality of opportunity either in our province as to date and when the division system, unitary system was brought in this was heralded as the system that would provide equality of opportunity. I don't think we 're very much nearer to that fact than we were at the

2724 June 6, 1972 (MR . FROESE cont'd) .. ... time when it was first brought in . The second object ive here is "to arouse and increase pu]JHc interest in educational a affairs." This is also commendable I think they are doing thi s, although I think much more could be done in thi s regard.

The third item is "to engage in researoh and study of matters of educational policy." I think up to the present very little has been spent by the Trustees Association for the purpose of research and probably the government should be considering establishing grants toward the Trustees Associatio n' for this purpose because we are giving grants to many other organizations for the purpose of research; we are giving large amounts to the University of Manitoba, to other organizations and I think it would be warranted to supply some grants to the Trustees Associa tion for thi s purpose.

And while I 'm discus sing thi s point of financial support, originally the Trustee s Associations did get a grant annually from the province. I' m just wondering at this time whether this is still the practice , whether this is still in effect. I don't see anything in the old Act of 1956 that this is still the case, but prior to that the Trustees Association did get an annual grant from the province. I think it was around $5, 000 annually . There are three more objectives here, I ce rtainly don't have any quarrel.

The next one is "to promote efficiency and improvement in the fulfillment of the duties of trustees and exercise of the powers of trustees under the laws of Manitoba. •r I know that they have carried on work shops from time to time wi th newer trustees coming into office and acquainting them with the provisions of the School Act , the responsibilities and so on, which in my opinion was very valuable to these people coming into office, and that the associa tion provided thi s type of service. This also is comme ndable in my opinion and should definitely be carried on.

The next point is "to co -operate with the Department of Education of the province and with other organizations in Canada or else we are having aims and objects the same as 'or similar to those of the association ." Here again the trustees are active in various governmental com mittees set up by the department and they cert ainly assist and fulfill their functions in thi s respect. I know of several committee,s of the department in past years where they participated very actively.

At one time they even undertook to do some work in connection with merit rating of teachers but when the report came in I don't think ever anything was done . Here I think the matter ce rtainly is worthy of discussion and is also worthy of consideration but how to tackle the job, this was the complex thing. Who would carry on these merit ratings? Who would do the assessing of the teachers job and how he was fulfilling his dutie s? So nothing ever came out of it and to date I don't think anything has been done along thi s line.

The next and the final one, objective , is to take any measures not inconsi stent with this Act of any other Act of the Legislatu re , or any regulations or rules, made under the authority of

an Act of the Legisla ture that the association deems neces sary or advisable to give effect to any policy adopted by it wi th respect to any question direc t, or indirect, affecting the purposes and objects of the association. I don't think I need comment on that one. I briefly want to mention a few other things contained in the bill . One deals with the matter of honorary members and I know from the old Act, or the 1956 Act, that only those who were recognized, only the immediate past presidents were recognized, that is of the Urban As sociation and the former Manitoba Association of School Trustee s.

Now I find that there is a change, that they are going back and will give rec ognition to all former presidents of the Association of both organizations. I think thi s is comm endable because these people also in their day have done a lot of work and received wide rec ognition. Dr. Cuddy of Sanford who has now passed on. He moved to British Columbia and he just passed away I think thi s last year. He was well known. He was one of the people who sat on the commis sion - J forget what year it was.

Was it in 1956 or thereabouts and I forget the deputy minister of the pro vince at that time who chaired this particular commission, and they brought in many and varied rec ommendations, some of them have been acted on, others have not. It was thi s particular commis sion that also rec ommended aid to private schools. Mc Farlane was the chairman of that commis sion - the name just es caped me momentarily. I think in other res pects the bill before us is very similar to the former bill.

I notice also that by-laws will have to be confirmed annually, those made within the current year, so that this is no different than that of the former Act . I also find that the provisions of the bill I think are to the effect that they will do what is reque sted of the associat ion at this time and date . The by-laws were incorporated in the former Act; these are not incorporated in the new Act. The former Act had the by-laws right in it and which set out the province into various

June 6, 1972 2725 (MR . FROESE cont'd) ..... districts and each district would elect delegates to the executive or the board. There has also been a change in that all trustees in the province are now being rec ognized and all will have voting rights at conventi ons. I think thi s is also an improvement and on the whole I think the bill is definitely an improvement on a number of things that I feel were present in the former Act. There's no fee

schedule in the present Act so that I take it that the power is there for them to collect fees in order to operate. So, Mr. Chairman, with those few words, I certa inly will support the bill on second reading. MR . SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion ? (Agreed) .. .. . continued on next page

2726 June 6, 1972 :MR, SPEA KER: Having exhausted public bills, we now go to resolutions. Resolution 2. The Honourable Member for Riel. :MR, CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise on a point of order. I wonder if since we were closing debate on Resolution No. 1 last evening, and it has dropped to the bottom of the Order Paper, but since there are no other speakers on it and debate was being closed, whether the House would like to .grant leave to complete the closing of the debate. MR. SPEAKE:Ej.: Is it the pleasure of the House to revert to last night ' s resolution.

The honourable member has had six minutes, he would have another 14 minutes to go to finish his time. Can we agree - agreed ? Well do we have unanimity or don't we ? All those in favour please say aye. Against. We do not have unanimity, I 'm sorry. Resolution 2, in the name of the Honourable Member for Emerson. The Members that have spoken on it are the Honourable Member for Emerson, the Honourable Member for La Verendrye, the Honourable Member for St. Matthews, the Member for Roblin, the Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose amended it, the Honourable Member for Lakeside, the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs, and the Honourable Member for Rhineland. The motion is open. Could I have the pleasure of the House to pass the motion ? (Agreed) So ordered. Resolution No. 3 -- (Interjec tion) -- as amended, that 's correct. The motion as amended. Agreed to adopt ? No. 2 has been adopted as amended. Re solution No. 3 the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Birtle-Rus sell , and amended by the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose.

The Honourable Members that have spoken on it are: Member for Birtle-Russell, the Member for Thompson, the Member for La Verendrye, the Member for Ste. Rose amended it, the Honourable Attorney-General, the Honourable Member for Gladstone, Winnipeg Centre, Lakeside, sub amendment by the Hon ourable Member for Birtle-Russell (defeated) , the Honourable Member for Cresc �ntwood, Morris, Flin Flon, Souris-Kil larney, Rock La ke, and the Honourable Minister of Agricultu re. The motion is open. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion as amended ? The Honourable Member for Rhineland. :MR. FROESE: Mr .

Speaker, I just want to raise a point of order here. When a resolu tion has an amendment before it, I think we should vote on the amendment first, and not just have a call on whether we agree. I think there should be a proper vote. :MR. SPEAKER: Well the resolution is before the House, with an amendment by the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, and a further amendment by the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell . Resolution No. 3. :MR, SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the sub-amendment lost. :MR, JORG ENSON : Yeas and Nays please, Mr. Speaker. :MR, SPEAKER: Call in the Members.

Order, please. The division is in respect to Re solution 3, amendment proposed by the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, and further amended by the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. A STANDING VOTE was taken the result being as follows: YEAS: Messrs. Barkman, Bilton, Blake, Craik, Ferguson, Girard, Graham, · Henderson, G. Johnston, Jorgenson, McGill, McKellar, McKenzie, Moug, Patr ick, Watt and Mrs. Trueman.

NAYS : Messrs: Adam, Barrow, Borowski, Boyce, Burtniak, Cherniack, Gonick , Gottfried, Green, Hanuschak, Jenkins, Johannson, Mackling, Malinowski, Miller, Pawley , Petursso n, Schreyer, Shafransky, Toupin, Turnbull, Uruski , Walding. CLERK: Yeas 17; Nays 23. :MR. SPEAKER: In my opinion the Nays have it and I declare the sub-amendment lost. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. :MR, FROESE : Mr. Speaker , I was paired with the Honourable Minister of Tourism.

Had I voted, I would have voted for the amendment. :MR, SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. :MR, BEARD: I was paired with the Minister of Industry and Commer ce, Had I voted I would have voted yea. :MR. SPEAK ER: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment to the resolution? The Honourable Member for Pembina. :MR, GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina) : Well, Mr. Speaker, we had a very simple, clear cut resolution here before the House. Since I came to the House we •ve been talking about cattle rustling. We spoke other years about bringing in branding, or other registered brands,

June 6, 1972 2727 (MR . HENDERSON cont'd) ..... and inspection of them to try and elimi nate it. We have had people that are losing cattle. Cattle has become worth more money, and a single steer can be worth as much as $325, 00 , and more , without any trouble. We have a penalty here of only $2 50. 00 and we have some thinking it's too much. I just don't know why you don't intend to act this session, How long do you want to wait ? The farm people have been waiting on this. We had hearings of the Agric ultural Committee throughout the country. What was the purpose of the hea rings ?

I'm sure that we were told on many occa sions that they wanted some thing done about cattle rustling. Nothing has been done. Here we had a member from Ste. Rose -- he knew about it , he ta lked about it -- who tried to stall it. Then we had an amend ment , whic h was a good amendment and said that we should do something about it this session, but we didn't do anything.

He listened to the Member from Cresce ntwood that -- thinking that it's quite all right for people to rustle -- we remember how he put forth his case -- or have we a government that's so concerned about things like Autopac, Unicity, and aid to private and parochial schools , that they can't do things that affect the ordinary person, and especially the farm people , who they say they are trying to help. What's it all about anyway? I think this is a resolution that should have been passed rather than fooling around with a lot of the other nonsense we do fool around with.

And to bring in amendments to a good resolution and then when it's amended again to make it reasonable so you can do something , you vote against it. MR . SPEAK ER: I should like to remind the honourable member that one of the rules of the procedure is we do not refer to decisi ons that have been made in this House. We just made a decision on the sub-amendment therefore I would suggest the honourable member stay away from that topic. The Honourable Member for Pembi na. MR . HENDERSON: Well thanks, Mr.

Speaker, but I must say that I'm very disappointed and I don't see how this motion is any good without that amendment -- sub-amendment. MR . SPEAK ER: Is it the pleasure of the House ? The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to add a few comments to the remarks of the honourable member who just spoke on this resolution because I happened to sit in the hearings of the Agricultural Committee in my constituency and heard the views that were ex pressed there that day, and I think it was a general consensus of opinion -- (Interjecti on) -- in the town of Roblin.

I think the general consensus of opinion was loud and clear and if I understood the members of that committee that day, and those I spoke to afterwards, I got the message that every member in that committee agreed with that type of legislation should be coming forth with this session, and I again I quarrel with that committee. If that committee is not going to go out in this province and do the work that they were supposed to do, and charge the fee that you're charging and not listen to the people on this type of a resolution, then I think it 's a wild goose chase.

Why have the Agricultural Committee charging around the pro vince listening to the wishes of the people ? Is this the social justice that the Honourable First Minister talks about all the time ? The justice of the people where they're asking for a simple little resolution. It isn't going to cost anybody anything and they want it. It's that simple. But , Mr. Speaker , this again is this great government , you know , progress; the government of tomorrow with the drive and the force for the little guy.

Here 's the little small farmers of this province who are suffering the problem of rustling being shot down the drain by a -- I'm surprised that the Member from Ste. Rose had the guts to put this kind of an amendment to that kind of a bill. I really am. He's a farmer. He's one of the guys that talked about rustling. -- (Interjection) -- Oh yes , he's talked about it . Now let him go back to his con stituency , Mr. Speaker , and tell the people of Ste. Rose what he's done to this resolution.

And if he doesn't tell them , I'm sure going to tell them that this is the kind of a member that they send in to the Le gislature to look after their problems. It was interesting, if you read this amendment it 's actually a joke because the first line he says there in the amendment "eliminate the words 'Assembly' :' What's this Chamber all about, Mr. Speaker ? Does he want us to amend it out in the backyard of this building , or downtown in a hotel room, or where ? That's the wisdom of the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. He says strike out the words "Assembly".

That 's the progress of this kind of a government, Mr. Speaker. I regret it ; I regret the decisi on of this government and I'm very unhappy tonight to tell the people of my constituency that this government does not support some kind of legislation for the control of cattle rustling in this province. MR. SPEAKER put the question on the motion as amended and declared the motion carried on division.

2728 June 6, 1972 1\ffi, SP EAKER: Resolution No . 25. The proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Riel. 1\ffi. CRAIK : Mr. Speaker , I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Arthur , that

WHEREAS the climatic conditions of Manitoba render energy costs a particularly impor tant part of the cost of living, and

WHEREAS low energy costs are an important requireme nt for many industrial under takings, and

WHEREAS Manitoba energy consumers appear likely to experience substantial increases in the 1970s in the cost of natural gas, oil , electricity, and other forms of energy, and

WHEREAS the Manitoba Pu blic Utilities Board now has a limited jurisdiction in the control of energy costs, and

WHEREAS most of the major decis ions affecting the supply and cost of energy to Manitobans is made by the Nati onal Energy Board or the agencies of other provincial govern ments , and

WHEREAS the Manitoba Government should exert all possible influence on the National Energy Board, or where possible on other provincial energy authorities to insure equitable energy costs for Manitoba, THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this government consider the advisability of es tablishing a Manitoba Energy Board whose responsibility would include a watching brief on the patterns of energy development in Manitoba and other provinces and the northern territories, examination of the negotiation_s between the National Energy Board and other energy controlling agencies , examination of the implications of continental energy agreement proposals and to make recommendations to the Manitoba Government on these and other such matters which contain energy cost implications to Manitoba consumers. 1\ffi.

SPEAKER presented the motion. 1\ffi. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. 1\ffi . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker , it 's said that politics is the art of the possible and therefore we always tend to deal with those things that are emergencies and I would doubt that there is a very large segme nt of the population that would consider the matter of this resolution to be a matter of day to day urgency. However , Mr. Speaker , the matter is urgent for those people in Manitoba who wish to enjoy reasonable costs for power and for other energy sources in the foreseeable future.

I bring the resolution into the Legis lature because the signs that exist on the national scene and on the provincial scene are ominous. We've had a number of warnings coming from economists of some repute , and energy conservationists of some repute, and to some extent from the National Energy Board through their productions of energy estimates which they put out for Canada, and all of these point to the requirement to plan for our future energy supply. Some of the information which we get is alarmist, other of the information is very much on the conservative side. Somewhere in between, Mr.

Speaker , lies the answer. But when you look at it in the long pull even if the optimists are correct we are very likely to be in a · very difficult energy position within a matter of decades , and if the alarmists are correct we are going to be in difficulty within ten yea rs. So there is no alternative but for us to plan. Manitoba is caught in the position of being a province with very little energy other than its electrical energy.

The oil resources which we have in the southwest part of the province are not enough to be considered seriously in providing energy for the province even if we did look at it on a provincial basis. Therefore other than our hydro power which we have in northern Manitoba we have to look outside the province for that energy source. And as we know gas and oil supply most of it , either for heating our homes, driving our industry, or provid'ng us with our driving force for transportation.

So we have to depend on this source for the supply but we also have to depend on outside forces in the control of the cost of this energy. And so far the cost of supply arid demand, the laws of supply and demand have ruled. And these laws tell us that an increase in prices is coming. We also have to depend on the National Energy Board whose policies deci de by and large what energy reserves should be kept in Canada for our own particular use. It's no secret, and I think it 's well known, that the interests of the provinces that contain large energy sources have now become primarily export oriented interests.

The Nation al Energy Board on the other hand is vested with the responsibility of looking after the interests of those provinces that do not have large sources of such energy. Well l suppose, Mr. Speaker , in effect what

June 6, 1972 2729 (MR •. CRAIK cont 'd) • we have is -- in Canada a very large consuming population in eastern Canada, and a very large production area in western Canada, with Manitoba in the middle and taking advantage of the transportation means that takes that oil and gas to market. However on the way through as I said we have no, or very limited control, over what the price of that commodity is to the residents and to the industries of Manitoba. Therefore this resolution recommends that the Manitoba Government consider the advis ability of setting up a Manitoba Energy Board.

Now it 's true that your powers, the primary powers will always remain with the National Energy Board, and to some extent we will always be subject to the powers of those provincial governments that control their natural resources.

It 's probably quite debatable whether the change that was made in the National Constitution, I guess it was the -- I don't know whether it was a change in the BNA Act , or at least it was a change in the initial laws of the land which put primary resources under the control of the Federal Government back in the early days of Canadian history, However about 1930 , during the 1930s a very significant change was made that vested the responsibility of all the primary re sources with the provin ces.

It seems unlikely , although it may be advisable from Manitoba's point of view, to recommend that control of natural resources would be better for us in Manitoba if they were back under the sole jurisdiction of Canada, It seems doubtful, Mr. Speaker , that this is going to happen so in its place what I'm recommen ding here is that a Manitoba Energy Board would have the responsibility of being a watchdog on behalf of the province rather than a governing authority, because it really does not have the power to govern as far as I know.

It certainly has no power of jurisdic tion over , with out some sort of special legislation or consideration by the national government, it would have no power over the energy sources passing through the province, Therefore it is essentially a watchdog type of board, It is a board that I think would not be costly, I think it would be a mistake if the government allowed it to become costly because there is no need for it, What this calls for is a board whic h would be made up of knowledgeable people in the areas of gas economi cs, of oil economics , of other sources of power economics , including hydro power, and I say that with some reservation, Mr.

Speaker, because I would say God help us if the powers that be if Manitoba Hydro were given exceeding powers in such a board, But I think that it is possible to establish a board without going to excessive costs. These type of people are in Canada , they can be drawn on for the purposes of advis ing the board, and the board in turn drawing to the attention of the public, and particularly to the attention of the government , the problems whic h face us in energy supply.

Therefore in proposing this resolution I put the caveat on it that I would be very hesitant to present it if I felt that it was going to amount to a significant added cost on behalf of the taxpayers of Manitoba to set up a watchdog committee that was in turn going to do an awful lot of work that could not be brought into force through some sort of legislation, but would be a group that could nothing more than simply advise the public and advise the government on the problems whic h face them.

I didn't have a great deal of time in presenting, putting together the documentation for the resolutions as I didn't expect it to come up tonight , but I do have some documentation that I think perhaps is worth drawing to the attention of the Legislature and this has to do with the reserves of our natural resources, We have heard a lot about the movement of gas and oil from the Arctic; we know that in the Arctic Islands that a bountiful supply see:ins to be eminent; and we also know that now that the Federal Government and Pan Arcti c, who hold the largest reserves of natural gas in the Arctic Islands, are looking at a pipeline route to bring it to the south.

But it appears that in the view of many who appear to know that even if this gas is brought down, and I want to quote here from an

article from the Canadian Financial Journal: "To get the gas out of the Arctic locations they will doubtless require a higher price to justify the fantastic cost of building the necessary pipelin es. So energy resources to drive our cars and the wheels of industry, heat our homes and generate much of our electrici ty , are going to cost us a lot more from here on in". You can count on it, That's one of the reference sources , Mr. Speaker , from which I think the comments that is made is valid . We also know - and this particular

article goes on to remark on the energy crisis in the United States. "In Washington the Federal Power Commission predicts a worsening shortage of natural gas for the next 20 years. A situation compounded by the lowering of domestic out put, In 1971 the demand in the U . S, reached 24. 6 trillion cubic feet of which 900 billion cubic feet went unsatisfied, " So already the shortage has set in in the United States . The commission

2730 June 6, 1972 (MR. CRAIK cont'd) , • , , , forecasts these deficits will grow to nine trillion cubic feet by 1980 and to 17 trillion cubic feet by 1990, providing strong argument-s for the proponents of gas pipe lines from the Arctic down the McKenzie Valley and now of course from the Arctic Islands hopefully through the Province of Manitoba. In oil , the picture is much the same. In the u.s. , Secretary of the Interior, Rodgers Morton .indicates that the conventional ratio of 80 perc ent domestic supply has now gone by the boards. He said the .U. S .

Government is already faced with urgent requests to import additional petroleum, Supply from the Alaskan ore slope is not likely for another three years, and even then it will not significantly improve the U. s. dependence on imports. What North America badly needs about now is a major discovery in the Arcti c, preferably the eastern - but it 's in the central - or better still in the Atlantic offshore area.

If the full estimated potential of these areas is realized, meaning upwards of 100 billion barrels of oil , it would pull the rug out from under the Arabian Gulf and Venezuela Governmen ts, but is that what the big multi-national companies want ? After all their interests there are even bigger than they are here in Canada. Well, Mr. Speaker , I think that that last comment adds to the argument that we can't just look at Canadian reserves but even if there are reserves offshore and elsewhere, we are still not protected against rises in energy costs.

Therefore I think again that it is necessary for us to provide a watchdog committee on behalf of Manitoba to insure that our input is heard when all these negotiations take place . The major requirement now is that the public interest be heard from in all these negotiations , and as of now, as of now, we don't have that voice , and I would say that as of now also there is no evidence that this government is moving very rapidly to even be conscious of what is happening with regard to the transportation of energy through Manitoba in a location and at a time when we may have that added requirement.

The National Energy Board regularly puts out statistics on our energy supply. They started out very optimistically two years ago saying that we had no problems at all. We had talks then of an international power and energy alliance being formed. Up until two years ago we had Canada knocking on the door of the United States, begging to sell its reserves of oil and gas. Two years ago the gas came off the quota list from the United States; with good reason, they were starting to get short and now we have Canada just beginning to realize the gold mine, more valuable than gold that we are sitting on.

Also and quickly on its heels , Mr. Speaker , there is no question that we are going to find that the quotas or embargoes on oil export out of Canada will be gone forever and again we are going to experience the same reaction as we have with natural gas.

Suddenly after knocking on the door of the United States for decades to try and sell them more and more oil and gas to keep our economy geared up, we are suddenly going to realize that all of a sudden we have a commodity that is in such demand that we are going to have to look out for our own well-being to insure that it is not exported at such a rate that we find ourselves left short. So we have a completely changed pictu re, and it has all happened , Mr.

Speaker , in a matter of one or two years , a completely changed attitude; and the attitude changes faster here in Manitoba than it changes in Alberta or Saskatchewan or those areas that have more energy supply. And it certainly changes more rapidly'· Mr. Speaker , the attitude changes more rapidly in Ottawa , whose function it is to protect our interests.

What we are striving for in presenting this resolution to the government is to see them act and establish an energy board that would have liaison with the national energy board and be able to present our interests to them to know that there are people and industries in Manitoba whose well-be ing is much more vulnerable to energy supply because of our colder climate than it is in the areas of the south , in the southern United States where they have learned over the decades to not treat their energy supplies with the same degree of respect that we have develope here in Canada.

And again I emphasize in the colder climate where the heating bills in our houses and the lighting bills in our houses can range from 5 to 10 perc ent of some family budgets and become a very significant factor. May I close , Mr. Speaker , and I see you watching the clock here, saying that I trust that this resolution will find accep tance generally in the House and that we can proceed with the formation of this energy board that can operate in the best interests of Manitoba. MR.

SPEA KER: The hour of adjournment having arrived , the House is accordingly adjourned and stands adjourned until 2:30 tomorrow afternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-4-106
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 4th hansardpdf 106.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	cc66e322e2809359d6faf5de6bc7b1964fa09e41

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