Manitoba Hansard — 2 June 1998 (Sitting 57, 36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-57

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

.. ... _ .. •: · .. . ·· Fourth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker :'·\�;..J.J �� .• .... ,. . . Vol. XLVIII No. 57- 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, June 2, 1998

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Cres�entwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

3797 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 2, 1998 The House met at 1: 30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mining Reserve Fund Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Y. McCann, K. McCann and T. McCann praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Newman) to consider transferring the account of the Mining Reserve Fund to a banking service in Lynn Lake, should such a facility meet provincial standards. The Brandon Area Foundation Incorporation Act Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of the Brandon Area Foundation praying for the passing of

an act to amend the Br andon Area Foundation Incorporation Act. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Rail Line Abandonment Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS affordable transportation is a critical

WHEREAS under the Crow rate benefit, Manitoba was the cheapest place on the Prairies from which to ship grain but became the most expensive following the abolishment of the Crow rate; and

WHEREAS the Canada Transportation Act proclaimed on July 1, 1996, gave railways the ability to discontinue and scrap branch lines without public input; and

WHEREAS several lines were targeted immediately by CN for abandonment; and

WHEREAS CN gave notice on May 6, 1998, that the Erwood Subdivision will be discontinued in 1998; and

WHEREAS the loss of this line would severely impact upon the communities of Bowsman and Birch River as well as surrounding communities; and

WHEREAS in 1997, western grain farmers lost millions of dollars due to backlogs and delays by the major railways; and

WHEREAS as a result·the federal government set up the Estey Grain Transportation Review which is scheduled to release a report later this year. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the provincial government go on record requesting CN and CPR to not proceed with any discontinuance of lines until that report has been tabled. Mining Reserve Fund Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

An Honourable Member: Dispense. component of grain production; and Madam Speaker: Dispense.

37 98 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2, 1998

WHEREAS mining is an annual billion-dollar industry in Manitoba concentrated almost entirely in northern Manitoba; and

WHEREAS the Manitoba mining industry directly employs more than 4,300 people pumping more than $240 million in wages alone into the provincial economy; and

WHEREAS part of the mining taxes on operating mines goes into the Mining Reserve Fund; and

WHEREAS the Mining Reserve Fund was set up for the welfare and employment of persons residing in a mining community which may be adversely affected by the total or partial suspension, or the closing down, of mining operations attributable to the depletion of ore deposits; and

WHEREAS the Mining Reserve Fund had more than $15 million on account as of April 1998, despite withdrawals by the provincial government of more than $6 million which was put into revenue; and

WHEREAS many mining communities having contributed millions of dollars to the provincial economy for many years are now nearing the end of their known ore resources and as such this fund is extremely important to the future of these communities in northern Manitoba; and

WHEREAS in order for a new banking service to establish a branch at Lynn Lake it has been suggested that they would need a minimum of $12 million on account. WHEREFORE YOUR PETfl'IONERS HUMBLY PRA Y that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Energy and Mines to consider transferring the account of the Mining Reserve Fund to a banking service in Lynn Lake should such a facility meet provincial standards. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Commi ttee of Supply Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Cha irperson): Madam resolu tions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS French Language Services Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister responsible for French Language Services): Madam Speaker, I have a statement for the House. I am rising in my capacity as Minis ter responsible for French Language Services.

Madam Speaker, I am not sure if the official opposition has received a copy of the statement, but there were three copies provided in my tabling. It is my pleasure today to table in this House the review oft he provincial judge, Richard Chartier, on the operation of the province's French language services policy. In addition to the formal tabling, I believe we have a copy for every member that has been provided on their desks. Judge Cha rtier's report is aptly titled Above All, Common Sense. It focuses on making bil ingual services more readily accessible in desi gnated areas of the province.

We believe the report contains a reasonable set of measures to enhance the implementati on of the French language services policy of our province. The report comprehensively covers the areas that Judge Chartier was asked to examine, and it would be usef ul to summarize them. Fi rst, he was asked to review the government's statement of French language services policy that was tabled in this House on the 6th of November, 1989.

He was asked to comment on the text and recommend on updating it, making it more rel evant to today's context and clarifying and/or strengthening it, all with a view to ensuring more consistent and ef fective imple mentation of services in French. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain * (13 35) -

June 2, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3799 Like all policies, the FLS policy should be reviewed from time to time to assess vital matters such as its eff ectiveness and the changes in circumstances and needs. We also asked him to review structures and systems supporting the implementation of the FLS policy and comment on their eff ectiveness in light of the results of the assessment of the active offer and del ivery of services in French. Judge Chartier was asked to make recommendations respecting the existing and/or desirable ways to actively and ef fectively offer services in French.

The third aspect of the review was to examine the areas where Manitoba's French language population is concentrated to ensure that services are made avai lable to those who wish to use them. In the course of his review, Judge Chartier consulted with members of the French-speaking community and with government staff who were instrumental in administering the FLS policy. This government agrees with Judge Chartier that we can better meet the obje ctives of our FLS policy by making sure that our services in French are actively offered in those regions where our Francophone population is concentrated.

In addition, his recommen dation that community service centres be established to serve as outlets for government services in desig nated Francophone areas is an idea that clearly merits serious consideration. Madam Speaker, we are moving at once into the impleme ntation stage respecting this report. We have set up an imple mentation strategy team, composed of the Cle rk of the Executive Council and several deputy ministers and supported by the government's senior adviser on French language services and have asked them to report to the Premier (Mr.

Fi lmon) and myself as Minister responsible for French Language Services on practical methods of acting on the recommendations. We have also written to the heads of a number of provincial Franco-Manitoban organiza tions to invite them to submit opinions and comments on the report. We hope and expect to receive the implementa tion strategy and to begin implementation this fa ll. We will act as quickly as possible on Judge Chartier's recommendations. Madame Ia presidente, j'a imerais soulig ner certains points dans la conclusion du rapport de Juge Chartier.

II ecrit qu'il est: "important de chercher a trouver des solutions pratiques, immediatement applicables et surtout des solutions qui mettent en valeur le bon sens." Comme lui, je suis convaincu que toutes les parties en cause veulent une ameli oration de Ia prestation des services en franyais, d'une part, pour mettre en valeur le Manitoba, et d'autre part, pour assurer Ia vitalite et le developpement d'une communaute qui a beaucoup donne et qui donnera beaucoup au Manitoba. [Translation] Madam Speaker, I would like to emphasize some points in the conclusion of Judge Chartier's report.

He writes that it is "important to try to find practical solutions that could be applied immedia tely, above all, solutions that make use of common sense." Like him, I am convinced that all the parties involved want to improve the del ivery of French language services, on the one hand, to enhance Manitoba and, on the other, to ensure the vitality and developmen t of a community that has contributed much to Manitoba in the past and will continue to do in future. [English] Mr. Praznik: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Merci, Madame Ia presidente.

Je voudrais remercier Ie mini stre pour ce rapport aujourd'hui. Je voudrais dire que nous avons reyu ce rapport il y a 10 minutes et nous voulons avoir l'opportunite d'examiner, d'etudier ce rapport. Je voudrais dire quelque chose d'abord. Premiere ment, je suis heureux que no us avons un processus pour determiner, pour examiner Ies systemes a adopter pour !'amelio ration des services en langue franyaise au Manitoba. Je voudrais demander au gouvernement d'adopter un processus avec des dates pour determiner quand nous allons adopter ces recommandations.

Je voudrais, pour le Nouveau parti democratique, que nous ayons l'opportunite comme tous les gens et toutes Ies organisations au Manitoba d'etudier et d'evaluer toutes Ies recommandations dans le rapport. Je suis heureux que le ministre a dit que le Premier minis tre sera responsable de determiner le processus. Je pense que c'est quelque chose de tres important, que

38 00 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2, 1998 le Premier ministre du Manitoba determine Je futur de Ia langue franyaise ici au Manitoba. Je voudrais dire quelque chose d'interessant aussi, Madame la presidente. Nous avons determine que ce rapport a ete donne au gouvernement en mai 1998. Le ministre de Ia Justice a dit que Je Juge Chartier n'est pas en situation pour sie ger comme juge, mais il a donne son rapport il y a un mois. II serait interessant de determiner quand il a fini son rapport et quand le gouvernement a obtenu son rapport.

Nous aurons l'opportunite d'examiner les recommandations et de determiner Je futur de Ia langue franyaise au Manitoba, mais pour Ia plupart, nous allons adopter Ia position de tous Jes Manitobains qui veulent ameliorer Ia situation et determiner un bon futur pour tout le monde au Manitoba qui parle franyai s. Merci, Madame Ia presidente. [Translation] Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to thank the minister for this report today. I would like to say that we received this report 10 minutes ago, and we want to have the opportunity to examine it.

I would like to say firstly that I am pleased that we have a process to determine and examine the systems to be adopted for the improvement of French language services in Manitoba. I would like to ask the government to adopt a process with dates to determine when we will adopt these recommendations. For the New Democratic Party, we want to have the opportunity, like all other people and organizations in Manitoba, to examine and assess all the recommen dations in the report. I am pleased that the minister has stated that the Fi rst Minister (Mr. Fil mon) will be responsible for determining the process.

I think that it is very important that the First Minister of Manitoba determine the future of the French language here in Manitoba. I would like to note something interesting also, Madam Speaker. We have determined that this report was given to the government in May 1998. The Minis ter of Justice (Mr. Toews) has stated that Judge Chartier is not in a position to sit as a judge, but he provided his report a month ago. It would be interesting to know when he finished his report and when the government obtained it.

We will have the opportunity to examine the recommendations and determine the future of the French language in Manitoba, but in general, we will adopt the position of all Manitobans who want to improve the situation and to ensure a positive future for all persons in Manitoba who speak French. Thank you, Madam Speaker. *

(1340) Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon eighteen Grade 5 students from F.W . Gi lbert School under the direction of Ms. Jamie Da vison. This school is loca ted in the constituency of the honourable Mini ster of Health (Mr. Praznik). We also have fifteen Grades 1 to 9 students from the Ministic School under the direction of Ms. Sherri Perih and Miss Amber Kehler. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson).

Also, we have twelve Grade 9 students from Walter Whyte School under the direction of Mrs. Joan Cooney. This school is also located in the constituency of the honourable Mini ster of Health (Mr. Praznik). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Foster Care Hotel Use Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, in 1993 the Premier (Mr. Film on) stated that, quote, foster parents can be replaced. He was responding to the cuts his government was making to the foster home rates here in Manitoba.

His minister then stated that we want to have Jess chil dren in care. Regrettab ly, we have more child ren in care on a per capita basis in Manitoba than anywhere else in Canada, and regrettab ly, 71,000 child -nights were spent in

June 2, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 380 1 hotels and shel ters last year at a cost of $124 a day, eight times greater than the cost of foster homes. I would like to ask the Premier: have his policies for children fai led in that we have had more costs going to hotels and short-term shel ters and less resources going into long-term care and foster homes for our kids in Manitoba? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I thank my honourable friend for that question because it does allow me to indica te that we have been working very closely with the Winnipeg agency over the last year.

The numbers of children that were in hotel rooms last year were unaccepta ble. We have been working on a day-to-day basis with the Winnipeg age ncy to ensure that those numbers are down. I know that today we have less children in hotels, although the number does fluctuate from one day to the next, but there has been a concentrated eff ort to ensure that child ren are in alternate placements other than hote ls. Madam Speaker, there has been a signi ficant improvement as a result of that initiative. Caseloads Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the Child and Family Services management has said this is not an ideal way to operate . The children need a family environment. Front-line workers have said it has never been this bad. It is chronic. It is a scandal what is happening with aboriginal children in terms of the cuts that were made by this government and by this Premier (Mr. Fil mon) on extended families. They go on to say that the caseloads are twice as high as the expected standards across North America.

How can this min ister talk about prevention when their workers are so overworked with chi ldren in care that they have no time left in Manitoba to do preventative care in our communities, as they should also do in Child and Family Services? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): It is true that we have asked our Child and Family Services system to be all things to all children in the past.

Madam Speaker, I am more interested in ensuring that we put the dol lars up front so that child ren will not need the child welf are system in the future in the significant ways that they have in the past, because I agree that the number of chi ldren in care in Manitoba per capita is unaccepta ble. I am more interested in putting the money up front and ensuring that the community, through community partnerships, is looking to the early intervention programs that will not have need for the child welf are system in the future. Mr.

Doer: This is a heartl ess government that cut, for 80 percent of the child ren on welf are, Madam Speaker, their food benefits by 19 to 24 percent. We do not need lectures from the heartless Tories across the way on dealing with children at the earliest stages. * (1 345) Child Poverty Rate Reduction Strategy Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Oppositi on): Madam Speaker, their own report goes on to say that the main causes of driving children into care are child poverty and lone parents. The report goes on to say that lone parents have gone up 11 percent under this government in the last three years.

It goes on to say that we have the highest child poverty rate in Canada. It goes on to say that there is nothing that this government is doing in terms of the socioeconomic conditions for kids that will change the situation for five years. How can this minis ter fe ign interest for kids and this Premier (Mr. Fil mon) fe ign interest for kids in dealing with prevention when their own report says it is five years that will continue in terms of the desperate economic and social conditions leading kids into care? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Fam ily Services): The document that my honourable friend is quoting from is part of surveys and studies that were funded by our government, because in fa ct we believe that we needed to look in a very significant way to how we change the child welf are system and how we deliver services to families and child ren in a significant way. We have lis tened to all the research, the Fraser Mustards, and all of those people that have indicated to us that a dollar spent in early intervention and prevention saves us $7 down the road in taxpayers' expenditures.

That is exactly why we have put $20 million into early intervention to try to prevent adolescent pregnancy, to try to prevent children that are

38 02 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 2, 1998 growing up in dysfunctional families, by ensuring that the suppor ts are there so they will not need the child welfare system. Winnipeg Child and Family Services Caseloads Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, Winnipeg Child and Family Services says that the average caseload per worker is 38, but Mr. Rob Oberlin, testifying at the inquest into the death of baby Schmidt, had a caseload of 48 deaths. Since this minister will not have a review-[inter jection] Forty eight children on the caseload.

Will this minister, since she will not have a review of the workload, investigate and see if there is a correlation between an excessively high number of cases per social worker and child deaths, which seems to be the case that we are finding out at this inquest? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): The same document that honourable friends in the opposition have been quoting from and the document that Prairie Research did, the operational review, are one and the same document.

I want to quote a part of that document, Madam Speaker, that says: the result is that measures such as 40 cases per worker have no meaning and cannot be used to ju stify the need for more resources. It is true that some staff are very burdened; equally others are probably not. The survey of staff revealed that many respondents, over 40 percent of the staff respondents, believe that workloads are unfairly shared. Madam Speaker, that is exactly the issue that Winnipeg Child and Family Services is trying to address through their strategic planning process. Mr.

Martindale: Will the Minister of Family Services, who must have read the story in the Free Press about the testimony at the inquest wherein the special prosecu tor asked Mr. Humniski if he had any recommendations to improve the Child and Family Services procedures and prevent a tragedy-he said something had to be done about the workloads workers face; he said the number of files each worker has prevents them from doing the work they should be doing. Will the minister take this testimony seriously, and will she do something about it in order to prevent future tragedies? *( 135 0) Mrs.

Mitchelson: I think the issue that my honourable friend ju st raised is the same issue that workers raised when the operational review was done, and that is that staff said that some staff are very burdened and equally others probably are not. The survey revealed that st aff believe that the workloads are unfairly shared, Madam Speaker, and that is exactly what the Winnipeg agency is trying to get at with its strategic planning process on how to deliver services in a better way to the children and families in Winnipeg. Children's Services Government Strategy Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Can the Minis ter of Family Services, who says that the system is not working, tell us why? Since she has been the minister of this department for four years, the system that she is responsible for is not working. What is she going to do to ensure that children are protected and that improve ments are made and no more cutbacks will happen that will adversely affect children? What is she going to do to accept her own responsibil ity? Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I thank my honourable friend for that question, because again I want to be able to say to Manitobans that the issues today in Child and Family Services are signi ficantly different and much more complex than they were in the past. The statistics that come from the Winnipeg agency indicate that over 60 percent of the children are of aboriginal descent. We need the aboriginal community involved in the solutions.

That is exactly why, in our early intervention programs, we have partnered with the aboriginal community, aboriginal youth in a very significant way to try to help find the solutions. I know it is one of the issues that the Winnipeg agency is grappling with. We will make every effort to try to ensure that the solutions that are found for the aboriginal children that are in care have participation from those leaders in the

June 2, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 38 03 aboriginal community that can help us find the solutions. Child and Family Services Rural Manitoba Cutbacks Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, Morden resource centre was eliminated, and a co-ordinator has become a protecti on worker. A community development position in Por tage has been eliminated, and the position has become a protection worker. They are only a couple of examples of eliminated services in rural Manitoba.

Given that the minister was told in the 1993-94 annual report of Central Manitoba Family Services, and I quote: secondary prevention services funded through our operational grants have virtually been eliminated. A reasonable conclusion would be that, unless one funds prevention services, workloads in child protection will continue to increase. Given that statement, I would like to ask the minister how she can say her government is not responsible for the rising caseloads in rural Manitoba. Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I guess when we look right throughout the whole province, we recognize and realize that the issues affecting children and families are much more complex today than they ever have been in the past. I think that the solutions involve not only government solutions but solutions involving the whole community. That is why we are looking at the early intervention programs and partnering with people and organizations within the community to help to find the solutions. Government does not have all of the answers, and no one expects them to.

They expect that kind of partner ship and the community working together with governm ent to find the solutions and to find the solutions before children need the services of child welfare. That is exactly what we are doing with early intervention and the $20 million that we are putting in up front. Ms.

Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, given that today the Manitoba rate of protection workers to population is 1 to 6,000, double that of what it is in the city, caseload workers are as high as 1 to 40, and given that rural workers have to travel to see their clients, what step is the minis ter prepared to take to correct this situation within the agencies of rural Manitoba? Mrs.

Mitchelson: The whole process for new initiatives within my department and within govern ment as a whole, through the Children and Youth Secretariat, are initiatives that involve community and involve community in solutions with government to try to ensure that families get off to a healthier start to life, that there is more money put into prevention up front. One dollar in prevention up front saves $7 later on in services that taxpayers need to pay. We recognize and realize that all the research- * (1 355) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable Minister of Family Services, to complete her response. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you, Madam Speaker. We are looking at wellness of families, rather than having to deal with families after the fact. I know that my honourable friends across the way would rather see us pour money in after the fact. We choose and we have chosen in this year's budget to put the money up front and prevent the kinds of crises that families are experiencing as a result of not having that support in the initial years of life. Ms.

Wowchuk: Given that, because of cuts to prevention programs, her own report says that workers are closing files sooner in rural Manitoba because they do not have the resources to help and workers are afraid someone is going to get hurt, what is this minister prepared to do to reins tate preventative services in agencies in rural Manitoba? Mrs. Mitchelson: Again, I repeat, I know my honourable friends across the way want to see us pour more money into Child and Family Services agencies, rather than putting money into the regional- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

38 04 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2, 1998 Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Mitchelson: Rather than seeing the money go through regional health authorities to more public health nurses and more services in people's homes, rather than seeing money go into our child care centres and into people who will work right in the home with children and families, so they will not need the child protection services from the child welfare system . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson is attempting to be recognized. Point of Order Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yes, Madam Speaker, Beauchesne Citation 417 is very clear: "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." What the minister has essentially been doing is repeating the same nonanswer five or six or seven times. The specific question was about services to rural Manitobans who are being impacted by the cuts that this government has put in place to children. I would like to ask you to call the minister to order to answer the very serious question we are asking about kids in rural Manitoba.

Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order. Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, the subject under question here today is a very serious matter. The Min ister of Family Services is the only one in this House treating it that way. She is attempting to deal with the issues raised by honourable memb ers, and as she does so in a very serious and, might I say, caring way, honourable members opposite continue to heckle from their seats in a very rude manner.

The honourable member is not raising a point of order with respect to the honourable minister's answers . She is dealing with the issues being raised. Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, to be absolutely certain, I will take the matter under advise ment to research Hansard and determine the exact context of the question asked. *

(1400) Minister of Family Services Action Request Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, this Minis ter of Family Services has really abandoned her ministry, clear in a 62 percent increase in children in care, the highest poverty rates in Canada, cuts to preventative services for expectant parents. Clearly, this minister' s practices show that she is the minister not of Family Services but of a few pilot projects.

So I would like to call on this minis ter today to take charge and respon sibili ty, to become the full Minis ter of Family Services and not to continue as a pilot projects minister, take a look at the whole and not address a few of the parts. Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I would tend to make the obs ervation, as a result of the questions that are being asked, that my honourable friends across the way are taking a very narrow view of providing services after the fact through the child welfare system, where we have taken the position that money up front is going to prevent the need for those child welfare services down the road. There is not any issue in the child welfare system that is not a serious issue, when families are living with dysfunction and children need to be protected and apprehended.

But I believe it is an issue beyond the services that the child welfare system can provide. We need public health involved; we need members of the justice system involved; we need members from the education community involved. What we are trying to do is take an holistic approach, unlike the quick-fix solutions that the opposition might talk about. Ms. McGifford: Ten years is a long, long time. Consul tation Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): I want to ask this minister, who knows that pilot projects are narrow

June 2, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 38 05 experime ntations which involve a few, when she will relieve the horrific caseloads, reconsider child welfare and consult with her colleagues in Saskatchewan who actually know how to create a child welfare system that works. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I honestly wish that we had a model of a child welfare system across this country that worked, that we could all follow and that we could all learn from, but it is not a reality. We always know-[inter jection] Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I wish we did not have to have a child welfare system, because I wish that every family was happy and healthy right across the province of Manitoba. But the reality is that we need legislation to protect children. We need services available to those children, but we want to make the attempt- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minis ter of Family Services, to complete her response. Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, thank you, Madam Speaker.

We are making the attempt to try to ensure that families are healthier up front with the sign ificant investment that we are placing in children and families today. God knows, the system has not worked in the past, and we have to make every attempt to try new ways of doing things and try to ensure that the resources that we are putting in place are the resources that are going to help families and children. Future Policies Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, given a child welfare system that does not work, 10 lost years in child welfare and the snip, snip, snip, cut, cut, cut Tory mentality, I would like to ask this minis ter how she plans to restore the faith of Manitobans in her ministry. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, $63 million, an increase of over 50 percent over the last five years, is not a cut to Winnipeg Child and Family-[inter jection] Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, $20 million in early intervention up front is not a cut; that is an increase.

We will continue to put the resources in where they are needed to try to keep families together and families happy and healthy. I make absolutely no apologies for that. Relocation ofVLT Machines Government Position Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, the Minis ter of Family Services concluded: by keeping families together and keeping families happy. The thoughts that go through my mind are the government's gambling policy and the negative social consequence of that particular policy.

My question is for the Minister responsible for Lotteries, and that is: does the government have any intentions of dealing with the whole issue of reallocation of VL Ts into more fair areas so that we do not have VL Ts in every community scattered throug h out the province? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the adm inistration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, we had a Lottery Policy Review Committee back in 1996, chaired by Mr. Larry Desjardins, that made a series of recommen dations of which we accepted the majority of them.

In fact, we went beyond those recommen dations, and in the case of VL Ts in Manitoba, we reduced them by some 10 percent. At the same time, we indicated that the issue of VL Ts would be reviewed every two years in Manitoba, and that review process is curr ently going to be underway in 1998 by the independent Gaming Commission here in Manitoba. Slot Machine s-VLT Machines Mr. Kevin Lamour eux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, following from one of the responses the minister ju st finished giving, the minis ter indicated 10 percent reduction in VL Ts.

3806 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 2, 1998 My question to the minister is: does he factor in also * (1410 ) slot machines as VL T machines, or are those something completely different, because my understanding is that the slot machine numbers have actually gone up? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, the 10 percent figure, I believe, relates to all machines, which are both VL T and slot machines, but they were taken totally out of the VL T stream which are the ones that are in facilities like lounges, licensed lounges and so on. But, again, I do not believe the member is correct when he refers to a current increase in slot machines.

I believe the levels of slot machines are the same as they have been for many years, the same as they were at the time of the study done by the independent Lottery Policy Review Committee chaired by Mr. Des jardins. Relocation of VLT Machines Government Position Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I will have to confirm that. My follow-up supplementary question to the minis ter is- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please put his question now. Mr. Lamoureux: Yes.

Will the Minis ter responsible for Lotteries make a commitment as to what this government's position is with respect to the whole issue of reallocation of VL Ts, not with the Gaming Commission? Does this government support the recommen dation or the belief that we need to start reallocating, relocating VL T machines in the province? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Man itoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, first of all, the issue of reviewing the VL T issue every two years was something that was announced on the heels of receipt of the Larry Desjardins Lottery Policy Review Committee. So we did indicate then that that review would take place every two years in Manitoba. I believe it is a responsible thing to do. If the member is referring to moving VL Ts within the current maximum allocation, there currently is no plan to do that that I am aware of, Madam Speaker. VON Services Government Action Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, if anything was learned from the Holiday Haven tragedy, it was that the Department of Health ought to take investigations of concerns, when raised, seriously and in some cases not accept the view of management in terms of the problems that are occurring. I continue to get complaints by patients and others about problems with the VON nursing service, not with the staff but with mis sed calls, with double calls and with serious problems being experienced by clients out there.

I am asking the Minis ter of Health if he is prepared to send in a team from the Department of Health to examine the management and operations of VON. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, the issue that the member has raised with me, from all reports that I have we are certainly aware of that difficulty, and he brings information that I have confirmed from other sources.

As the delivery of home care is within the jurisdiction now of the Winnipeg Long Term Care Authority, we have indicated very clearly to the CEO of that authority that they should be doing what they need to do to ensure that patients receive the care that is required, and ifthat involves sending in a team to work with the VON, if that involves gearing up their own staff to take more of the role that the VON is playing today, then so be it. They have the authority to do that to ensure patient care is properly delivered. Long Term Care Authority Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, the minister has indicated that he has given the authority to the Long Term Care Authority to carry out some activities. Can the minister indicate whether or not, as the issue is of a serious nature, this authority that he has given to the Long Term Care Authority, in fact, will be taken out and a team will be sent in to VON, not ju st to examine patient care, but I might add that VON for the past two months has not paid, until Fri day, the Blue Cross of all their employees, and many employees

June 2, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 38 07 actually tried to claim the benefits and were not able to because of the chaos at VON management. Is he now authorizing his st aff to move in there? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the Victorian Order of Nurses is a private organization. I do not have the legal authority to move in to take over their operation. If they, in fact-well, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) looks somewhat perplexed by that comment, but that is in fact true .

I do have the legal authority, where a personal care home or a hospital is at risk, to be able to make that move, but that is not the case with a home care provider. So their board of directors would have to allow that to happen. If they do not, then, quite frankly, and if they are not able to deliver service, they are not living up to their contractual obligations, and the Winnipeg Long Term Care Authority is certainly then free to find alternative ways of delivering that ser vice. The member's assessment of the problem, I think, has been fairly accurate.

I think as he, I would hope, would appreciate, we do not ju st have the legal authority to take over that organization unless it is a voluntary secession of management authority. Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): In addition, Madam Speaker, is the minister prepared today to write to MARN, the professional body of the nurses, either jointly or singly by the minister asking them to move in, to look at the nursing situation in order to protect the situation of nurses who find themselves in some cases in an untenable situation? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): The concern, particularly with respect to missed appoint ments, has been the key concern of the Winnipeg Long Term Care Authority. Certainly, if there are professional standards issues involved, MARN has a role to play.

Again, it is a private organization with a private board of directors, but I think very clearly from the question the member asked me a few days ago, I think the signal we have sent through this Legislature and through the Winnipeg Long Term Care Authority is we expect organizations like the VON, who have a contract to provide services, to deliver those services. If they are unable to do so at an adequate level, then the authority responsible has to make other arrangements. That is the power that the Winnipeg Long Term Care Authority has and I expect will carry out. Linnet Graphics Forgiven Loan Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, we have learned in the last two days from spokespeople in the industry that Linnet Graphics was indeed sold for a song, in their view. Madam Speaker, given that Linnet had a loan of $200.000 from this governmen t which was apparently forg iven, it had never paid interest on the loan, it did not meet any of the job creation targets-and I will table the job creation targets that the company had proposed. Of some 360 jobs it was proposing, it had 60 at the end of its ownership in the public sector, and that is fewer jobs than it had two years ago.

Madam Speaker, why was this company forgiven a $200,000 loan? Was that part of the deal with the Finance minister's brothe r-in-law? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, first of all, I would like to put clearly on the record that the negotiations that started with Linnet Graphics started far prior to this government getting into office. It was the previous administration that had started negotiations. The New Democratic administration, prior to our being elected in 1988, was when the initial agreement started to be developed.

To deal specifically with the question as it relates to the company and the jobs, today there are some 60-plus people working in the province of Manitoba that were not working prior to the arrangements that were made and the establishment of this company in the province of Manitoba. It has been sold. It has been sold for a profit for the people of Manitoba, of which the $200,000 was taken, or when you calculate it, we still made $234,000 for the people of Manitoba after the loan was in fact deducted from the amount that was received. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minis ter, who knows that the agreement was signed in 1989, that the

38 08 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2, 1998 draft agreement had only been entered into a year before and not years before, will he tell the House why he has forg iven a loan to this company when the company did not meet the job creation targets, did not ever pay any interest on its loan? Now we have forg iven a loan and r educed our stake in the company to far below the market value. Why did we forg ive this loan? It did not meet the targets. Is that the way you do business? Mr.

Downey: Madam Speaker, just to correct the record, discussions had started prior to 1988 with Linnet Graphics as it related to making a deal to make sure the company was in fact carrying out business in the province of Manitoba. The former New Democratic Party had in fact started discussions with the company before this government was in fact elected in 1988. The decision was made that the company is providing 60-plus jobs in the province of Manitoba. It is creating activities here that would not have been in the province of Manitoba.

They have to maintain their office here for five years, and we believe that the deal that was negotiated is a good one on behalf of the people of Manitoba. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, the minister has not answered the question. The question is: why did the minister forgive a loan, the conditions of which were never met by the company, the job creation targets were never even approached by the company, no interest was paid, and yet at the end of the day, we forgive a $200,000 loan, and according to industry sources, sell the company for a song? He has not answered why the government did this. Mr.

Downey: Madam Speaker, the member is well aware of the fact that the province had certain programs where in fact there were forg ivable loans for providing certain benefits to the province of Manitoba. The decision was made by the government that the benefits that the province rec eived by having a company here with some 60-plus employees-[in terjection] Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, if the member wants to keep talking, it is difficult to answer the questions.

We got far more benefit out of Linnet Graphics than we did out of ManOil, that lost $16 million from the people of Manitoba, and MTX, that lost $29 million in Saudi Arabia. I will put our deal against theirs any time. Airports- Northern Manitoba City of Thompson Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson, on a point of order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Actually, Madam Speaker, I have a question. But if you want, I could raise a point of order on the last answer. I just thought it spoke for itself. Madam Speaker: I apologize.

I just assumed the honourable member for Thompson was up on a point of order. * (1 420) Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, airport access is critical in northern communiti es, and nowhere is that more true than in Thompson. Right now we are in a position where negotiations have broken off between the City of Thompson and the federal government related to the future of the airport, and the mayor of Thompson has made it very clear that essentially the federal govern ment is refusing to negotiate and is trying to force the City of Thompson to take over the airport in a very untenable situation.

The City of Thompson is asking the provincial government to get involved. I would like to join that call, and I would like to ask the Minis ter of Highways and Transportation: will he get directly involved in putting pressure on the federal governm ent to be reasonable and come up with an agreement which will not result in the closure of the Thompson airport as soon as the year 2000? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Tran sportation): Madam Speaker, the federal government made decisions without consu ltation with the provinces or affected communities to institute the national airports policy which in Manitoba involved, I believe it was seven different airports that they wanted to devolve to local communities. They have actually achieved that with every airport except Thompson, and

June 2, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 38 09 there are some ongoing issues under discussion. Hopefully, discussions can be maintained between Thompson and the federal governmen t to reach a conclusion that is good for the Thompson airport and the region of Thompson. Mr. Ashton: Well, Madam Speaker, will the minister take action now, given the fact that negotiations have broken off and the City of Thompson has made it very clear there are no real negotiations going on, only ultimatums being forwarded to the city?

Will the minis ter speak out by speaking directly to the federal government and urging them to be reasonable and come out with an agreement that suits the needs of the city of Thompson? Mr. Findlay: Madam Speaker, as with all airports involved in this devolution process, we will assist where and when possible, but we will not accept, as a province, federal respons ibilities. Clearly, there is an issue with regard to ongoing capital maintenance of an airstrip that is federal responsibil ity which they should not be allowed out of, and we will support that particular principle.

Airports-N orthern Manitoba City of Thompson Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): My final question is to the Premier, who has been saying do something. I am doing something; I am raising it. I would like to ask the Premier: will he do something? I realize he has not been close to Thompson for the last little while, certainly close to the airport, but will he raise the issue with the federal government? I am raising this, not criticizing the provincial government.

I am pointing the finger where it belongs at the federal government, but I am asking the Premier and the provincial government to get involved and support the city of Thompson. Hon. Gary Film on (Premier): Obviously the minister has explained carefully, I think, to the member for Thompson where the ju risdiction lies. The jurisdiction lies with the federal government who has unilaterally decided to offload the respons ibility to the local munic ipal jurisdiction, and he is pointing out that, as the member for Thompson, the member for Thompson should be appealing directly to the federal Minis ter of Transport.

That is where the ju risdiction lies. We would ju st like him to understand that so he can better serve the needs of his people by understanding where the ju risdiction lies. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Madam Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. On May 7, 1998, during Question Period I took under advisement, in order to peruse Hansard, a point of order raised by the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid). In his point of order, the honourable member asked that I review Hansard as to exactly what words the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) had used.

Hansard shows that the member for St. Johns said: "When was he"-referencing the Minis ter of Justice-"t elling the truth, Madam Speaker? To the reporter yesterday or in the House now or are they both lies, are they both ruses, I ask the minister." At the time I asked the honourable member for St. Johns to withdraw the word "lies." The member for Transcona argued that the word "lies" was used in reference to statements and was not used in reference to any member of this Legislative Assembly. The honourable member for Transcona did not have a point of order. The honourable member for St.

Johns clearly referenced the Minis ter of Justice (Mr. Toews) as not telling the truth and described comments made by the minis ter as "lies." To return to the original matter, on May 7, I asked the honourable member for St. Johns to withdraw the word "lies," and I am now requesting that he do so. Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Well, I notice the minis ter never answered the question, but I withdraw. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable member for St. Johns.

3810 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 2, 1998 MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Manitoba Telecom Services Mr. Ben Sveinson (La Verendrye): Madam Speaker, members opposite continue to live in the past with outdated policies and unworkable concepts. The latest to come from across the way is a plan to bring Manitoba Telecom Services back under public ownership. The most noticeable thing missing from this idea is where the $1. 7 billion and the estimated $500 million for systems upgrading would come from.

While not a party shy on creating new taxes and raising existing taxes, as they did from '82 to '87, most Manitobans shudder at the idea of another NDP term in office. Let none of us forget that during the period between April of 1986 to March of 1988, the five Crown corporations under the NDP lost a grand total of $3 17 million. As well, in just six years, the NDP government tripled the debt accumulated by all governments over the preceding 102 years. The new global economy has changed the business landscape throughout Canada. There is no going back, as the NDP would have us do.

One needs only to review the Thompson Citizen to get a good idea of what Manitobans think ofNDP policies. The Citizen wrote: the NDP seem to be stuck in the policy area where they were 20 years ago. The nationalization of MTS, along with their proposed 32 -hour workweek, only confirms that the NDP-according to the Winnipeg Free Press-be lieves government's sole purpose is to spend more on every thing and stick someone else with the bill. That someone else, Madam Speaker, unfortunately, was the people of Manitoba. Thank you. Child and Family Services Policies Mr.

George Hickes (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, the crisis in care of children at risk created by policies of the provincial government has been well documented. In the past six years, the cost of keeping these children in hotels and shelters has increased by more than $10 million. Last year, the province paid for children to stay in hotels and shelters for more than 71 ,000 child nights. This is an extr emely expensive and unproductive way to deal with these children, but it has become a major policy decision of this govern ment.

The province eliminated funding for the Foster Parents' Association more than five years ago. It cut funding of foster parents and then wonders why there is a shortage of foster parents. Over the past seven years, the number of permanent wards of Child and Family Services has risen by nearly 50 percent to more than 1,1 00. Aboriginal children are the main victims of this government's policies. As much as 60 percent of the children in Child and Family Services care are aboriginal, more than twice the percentage than when this government took office.

The services and standards of care are suffering, thanks to a government that simply does not care and is quite prepared to ignore the problems it creates. Ins tead of any commitment to deal with the huge increase in case loads, shortages of foster parents, the lack of super vis ion or accountability, the government is content to announce a series of small pilot programs. After I 0 years, it is time for more than temporary pilot programs and to listen to the children who are at risk who are calling on this government to please do something. Thank you, Madam Speaker. * (14 30) Fred James Ross Mr.

Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, this past weekend, Stonewall resident, Fred Ross, received the prestigious Governor General's Caring Canadian A ward for his long-standing service to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. The award was presented Saturday evening at the RCMP Veterans' Ass ociation annual meeting, attended by several hundred retired and active RCMP of ficers from across Canada. Fred Ross has a long history with the RCMP, and he is a deserving recipien t of the award.

The honour, which ranks just below the Order of Canada, is given to people and groups whose volunteer efforts provide extraordinary help or care to the community. Throughout the years, Mr. Ross had demonstrated cons iderable dedication to the RCMP members and their families. His efforts have included helping

June 2, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 381 1 members who are ill and providing help to families of deceased RCMP veterans. He has also worked extensively with RCMP members on pension and ins urance matters. As well, Ross has long been an organizer of a golf tournament used to raise money for the Slain Peace Officers Fund. His colleagues say the Governor General's Caring Canadian Award is long overdue and well deserved. Once again, I would like to congratulate retired RCMP officer Fred Ross for his outstanding devotion to his fellow of ficers. All have been well served by his efforts. Thank you.

Philippine Independence-tOO Year Anniversary Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, this coming June 12 will mark the I OOth year of the proclamation of Philippine independence from being a colony of the Spanish empire. To everything, it is said, there is a season. There was a season for slavery and oppression which lasted for 300 years. Now it is the season for freedom and independence which now marks this hundredth year.

Therefore, it is proper that this Friday, June 5, 1998, starting at 6 p.m. there will be a cultural presentation at the Sisler High School at 13 60 Redwood A venue to start this commemoration. On Su nday, June 7, 1998, at 8:30 in the morning, at the City Hall quadrangle at 51 0 Main Street, there will be an opening flag ceremony attended by many different organizational groups. At approximately II :30 a.m. there will be a picnic at Kildonan Park lasting until early evening.

On Tuesday, June 9 at 6 p.m, again at Sisler High School, there will be a trivia contest for high school students sponsored by the Manitoba Fili pino Writers' Guild. On Thursday, June 11 , starting at 6 p.m. again, there will be an oratorical contest on Rizalism: The Foundation of the Fi lipino Spirit at the Prairie Exchange Theatre, on the third floor of Por tage Place Complex. On Saturday, June 13 , 1998, 6 p.m., there will be a Philippine independence ball at the Winnipeg Convention Centre at 375 York Avenue. On Sunday, June 14 , 9 a.m., there will be a picnic and games at Assiniboine Park.

On Thursday and Friday, June 18-19 from 3 p.m. to midnight, there will be a Philippine village festival at the Red River Exhibition at 3975 Portage A venue. Fin ally, on Saturday, June 20, there will be the bir thday celebration at Casa Bueno restaurant at 340 Henry A venue. Everybody is invited. Thank you. The Maples Youth Justice Association Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): I rise to mention an event that is going to happen in The Maples tonight. It is our sixth annual general meeting of The Maples Youth Justice Association. I am looking forward to this event.

Tonight is the first time that our ju stice committee has held such an event. Usually we have a very informal barbeque, but we are having dinner tonight at Garden City Inn. I know the Minis ter of Justice (Mr. Toews) is coming, along with a number of officials from Commu nity and Youth Corrections to celebr ate the work that the 18 members of the youth ju stice committee have been doing over the past year. The work that these people have been doing, the countless hours they do, has to be celebr ated and commended.

The theme of the night tonight-! do not have the exact words, but the idea that I got from an invitation that I got from the YWCA-that a hundred years from now no one will remember what kind of car I drove, no one will remember the size of my bank account, but if I make the differen ce in one child's life, it will make a difference a hundred years from now. I think, for the 18 people in our youth ju stice committee, they are trying to make a diff erence to at least one child's lif e.

I think the other part that our committee has learned in the past year-a number of us have been victims of crimes ourselves and we take into a lot more consideration than we ever have that as ju stice committees we are not only responsible to the youth we are working with but the victims too. I am looking forward to tonight, and I hope all members will support the ju stice committees in their areas. Thank you. MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTA NCE Crisis in Child Welfare Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Osborne (Ms.

McGifford), that under Rule 31 , the ordinary business

3812 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 2, 1998 of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the record numbers of children in care, the huge workloads for social workers and the overall crisis in child welfare in Manitoba. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Before reco gnizing the honourable member for Bur rows, I would remind all members that under our subrule 31 (2) the mover of a motion on a matter of urgent public importance and one member from the other party in the House is allowed not more than five minutes to explain the urgency of debating this matter immediately.

Mr. Martindale: Madam Speaker, I believe that my motion is in order because we have been finished the Estimates for Family Services for some time now; I have already used my grievance; we have new information that was just obtained very recently, and although I could write a resolution on this topic, it would not get debated during this sessio n. I believe that we need an emergency debate because there is a crisis. There is a crisis when children are in hotels and four-bed units.

We know from Winnipeg Child and Family Services that this continues to be a serious problem, and these are the most expensive placements at $124 per day. In the strategic planning document, Winnipeg Child and Family Services says that in 1997-98 there was a huge jump in the use of short-term placements. I believe there is a crisis when the workload for social workers is supposed to be 15 families per worker, according to the American child welfare organization, but the average for Winnipeg Child and Family Services social workers is 38 families per worker.

I believe there is a crisis when a worker testifies at the inquest into the death of a baby that he knew the workload was too high because a baby died. I believe there is a crisis when the worker in this case testified that he had 48 cases. Well, who is saying that it is a crisis? Madam Speaker: Order, please. Could I please request those members having private meetings to do so outside the Chamber? I am experiencing great difficulty hearing the honourable member's comments relative to the urgency of the debate. Mr. Martindale: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Who is saying that there is a crisis?

Is it just the official opposition in the Manitoba Legislature? No. Is it just the Children's Advocate who in one of his annual reports said that there is a crisis in child welfare in Manitoba? No. Who else believes there is a crisis? Well, I believe the Minis ter of Family Services (Mrs.

Mitchelson) believes there is a crisis because yesterday in Question Period she said, and I quote, "the way that we have been doing business for years and years and years in the area of the child and family services system is not working, despite the fact that we are pouring more money into the system year after year." So, not only do I believe that there is a crisis in the child welfare system, not only does the Children's Advocate believe there is a crisis in the child welfare system and people testifying at an inquest into the death of a baby, but this Minis ter of Family Services also believes there is a crisis in the child welfare system because she says that it is not working, and what is she doing about it?

Well, this is an opportunity today for the Speaker to recognize the need for an emergency debate, so that all members in this Chamber and all three parties represented here can articulate their ideas for making improvements to the child welfare system so that children are afforded protection, so that children do not die in the care of child welfare and so that this crisis can be solved, that we can find some practical solutions to these problems. Theref ore, Madam Speaker, I think you should allow for an emergency debate to go ahead.

Now the spending by Winnipeg Child and Family Services is estimated in '97-98 to be $67 million, and the minis ter respon sible for this spending, who approves their total budget, says that the system is not working. Well, what is the government doing about it? Well, this minis ter, the minis ter of pilot projects announced tiny little dribbles of money to try and solve this problem, but her pilot projects are not going to solve the crisis in child welfare.

So I would urge you to allow this emergency debate to go ahead so that we can debate it in full this afternoon in the Manitoba Legislature and give the government some good advice, because that is what they desperately need. Thank you, Madam Speaker. * (1 440)

June 2, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 3813 Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, as was pointed out during Question Period, the matter which is the subject of the honourable member's motion this afternoon is an extremely important matter. Honourable members opposite use the word "crisis" to describe virtually every matter they bring before the House. I think they sometimes forget that the real crisis is in the family, where Family Services are required to deal with children in those families. I think honourable members opposite forget that is where the crisis really is.

The crisis is not in this Chamber but in those family circum stances. With that in mind, Madam Speaker, our Minis ter of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) is extremely dedicated to her work. She is extremely mindful of the responsi bilities of herself and her department, and the problem raised by the honourable member is something already acknowledged by the honourable Minis ter of Family Services. In 1998, we see the incidence of children being lodged in hotel rooms reduced from that which was existing in 1997.

The minister would be the first to say that that is still not satisfactory and that there are still issues to be resolved. That is why we have a Department of Family Services. That is why we have a Winnipeg child agency. It is to deal with the crises that occur, unf ortunately, in families from time to time, and they need to be there and running. The challenge has been, the challenge discussed today between the honourable member for Bur rows (Mr.

Martindale) and the Minister of Family Services with regard to opportunities for debate-we have had the opportunity of the review of the Estimates of the Department of Family Services. We also have the opportunity of concurrence which is coming up. But that aside, honour able members opposite need to be remin ded from time to time that every single matter they bring in here they refer to as a crisis, and after a while honourable members opposite themselves will confuse members of the public about what a real crisis is. I remind them again, the real crisis is in the family when these circumstances arise.

The honourable Minis ter of Family Services is working hard with the department and Winnipeg Child and Family Services to address the matters. The honourable member for Bu rrows seems to suggest that there is some kind of quick-fix solution to this kind of problem, and, by having a debate this afternoon, the honourable member for Bu rrows, all by himself and a few of his colleagues, can give the Mini ster of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchel son) the advice she needs to make this crisis pass. Madam Speaker, the honourable members are clearly wrong.

They display a total lack of understanding about what Family Services is all about. I am reminded very much of their own pitiable record when they were in government, and there has been significant improve ment in the support from the governmen t of Manitoba to these matters in the days and years since. But by the definition of what amounts to a requirement for an emergency debate, I regret to suggest that the honourable member for Bur rows (Mr. Martindale) has not made his case.

He has made his case, as the minis ter has done, that the matters are extr emely important and, indeed, of crisis proportions for individual families. The honourable member also needs to understand and be reminded that the Minis ter of Family Services, in any event, would not be able to discuss the matters related to individual files. That would be an inappropriate thing for the minister to do, and I suggest other members, too, but other members do not seem to care about that, but our minis ter has to care about that and be responsible, unlike what we see sometimes from honourable members opposite.

So, with due respect, the honourable member has raised his point, Madam Speaker, but I believe he fails on the points of where he needs to succeed. Point of Order Mr. Martindale: Madam Speaker, on a point of order. The government House leader says that I do not care about matters of individual cases and confidentiality, and nothing can be further from the truth . We do not want to talk about individual cases or anything that is confidential. We want to talk about what the minis ter said, that the system is not working. That is the issue today.

3814 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2, 19 98 Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order. Mr. McCrae: On the same point of order, I accept what the honourable member says, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: However, the honourable member for Bu rrows did not have a point of order. It was clearly a dispute over the facts. *** Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader has approximately 30 seconds to complete his remarks. Mr. McCrae: Just to wrap up, I do respect the honourable member for Burrows and his wish not to break the rules.

I wish I could say the same thing about all of his colleagues, but unfortunately I cannot always do that. Madam Speaker, this is indeed a serious matter. The Minis ter of Family Services is treating it that way. But the matter, as raised by the honourable member, does not fall within the ambit of the rules, and therefore his motion should not be allowed. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I thank all honourable members for their advice on whether the motion proposed by the honourable member for Burrows should be debated today. The notice required under Rule 31. ( 1) was indeed provided.

According to Rule 31 and Beauchesne Citations 389 and 390, there are two tests for a matter of urgent public importance to proceed; one, is the subject matter so pressing that the ordinary opportunities for debate will not allow it to be brought out early enough, and two, has it been shown that the public interest will suffer if the matter is not given immediate attention. With respect to whether there are other opportunities to debate this matter, I note that the Estimates of the Department of Family Services are concluded.

The honourable member for Burrows could, however, use the vehicle of an Opposition Day motion. Further, I am not convinced that the public will suffer if the matter is not debated this day. Therefore, I am ruling the matter does not meet the criteria set by our rules and practices. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): A point of order, Madam Speaker. We cannot challenge, according to the rules, your decision. But I would ju st like to point out that Opposition Day motions require notice. We do not have control over when they are called.

That is done between the government House leader and the opposition House leader, and we cert ainly cannot table an Opposition Day motion and have it dealt with on the same day. The reason we moved the emergency debate was we felt it should be dealt with today, and I do have some concerns if that particular opportunity is seen as taking away the ability of members to raise emergency debates. If we filed an Opposition Day motion today, we might not see it until next week.

So I am not challenging your ruling; we cannot do that, but I do have some concerns about that aspect of the ruling, Madam Speaker. * (1 450) Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order. Mr. McCrae: On the same point or order, Madam Speaker. You cannot call a matter a crisis in the same breath that you call it chronic, and that is what the honourable members seem to want-to have it both ways. I do not take issue with what the honourable member for Thompson says. The rules for an Opposition Day are laid out in the rules.

On the other hand, you are right, Madam Speaker, and I do not feel very comfortable reflecting on what you have already said, except that you are right that Opposition Days are available, grievances are still available to honourable members in the New Democr atic Party, unless they have all used them. The honourable members opposite understand the rules that grievances are to be used once. I cannot

June 2, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3815 recall what the honourable member for Bu rrows (Mr. Martindale) grieved about before, but you know, you need to-honourable members understand the rules of this House, and they make sure that they are provided with ample opportunity to discuss the matters that they want to discuss. I did also, in my comments, refer to the fact that concurrence is still available, and that is not too far off. If other opportunities need to be made available, honourable members maybe can talk with me.

But I do not want to discuss in the House my private discussions with the honourable member for Thompson because we, I think, work very co-operatively in getting a lot of the business of the work of the House done and, on matters before us, bringing them to us. But I do not think the point of order is an appropriate way to deal with a ruling of the House of the Speaker. In the past, those rulings could be challenged and often were, but the rules now say the ruling of the Chair shall not be subject to appeal.

I suggest a point of order on the same point falls short of an outright appeal but perhaps ought not to be entertained in view of all of the other opportunities honourable members have. Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I appreciate his advice; however, he did not have a point of order ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, would you be so kind as to call the bills listed for third reading on page 2 oftoday's Order Paper? THIRD READINGS Bill 3- The Elections Finances Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): On behalf of the honourable First Minis ter (Mr. Filmon), I move, seconded by the honourable Minis ter of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Bill 3, The Elections Finances Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le financement des campagnes electorales et modifications correlatives), be now read a third time and passed. Motion agreed to. Bill �The Agricultural Credit Corporation Amendment Act Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, (on behalf of the honourable Minis ter of Agric ulture (Mr. Enns)), I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Bill 5, The Agricultural Credit Corporation Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Societe du credit agricole), be now read a third time and passed. Motion agreed to. Bill 6-The Animal Liability and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, (on behalfofthe honourable Minis ter of Agricu lture (Mr. Enns)), I move, seconded by the honourable Minis ter of Cu lture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey), that Bill 6, The Animal Liability and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi sur Ia responsabilite a l'egard des animaux et modifications correlatives), be now read a third time and passed. Motion agreed to.

Bill 7- The Public Utilities Board Amendment Act Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, (on behalfofthe honourable Minis ter of Consumer and Corporate Aff airs (Mr. Radcliffe)), seconded by the honourable Minister of Cul ture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey), that Bill 7, The Public Utilities Board Amendment Act (Loi modificant Ia

Loi sur Ia Regie des services publics), be now read a third time and passed. Motion agreed to. Bill 9-The Mines and Minerals Amendment Act Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, (on behalfofthe honourable Minis ter of Energy and Mines (Mr. Newman)),

3816 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2, 1998 seconded by the honourable Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), that Bill 9, The Mines and Minerals Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les mines et les mineraux), be now read a third time and passed. Motion agreed to. Bill 15-- The Dutch Elm Disease Act Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): I move, (on behalf of the honourable Minis ter of Natural Resources (Mr. Cumm ings)), seconded by the honourable Min ister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Bill 15 , The Dutch Elm Dis ease Act (Loi sur Ia graphiose), be now read a third time and passed. Motion presented. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Yes, ju st very briefly, Madam Speaker.

We do understand that with Bill 15, The Dutch Elm Dis ease Act, has been in place for a number of years now and is a major legis lative tool in terms of protecting Manitoba's urban ecosyst ems.

These changes, from what we understand, are fairly consistent with The Sustainable Development Act and are fairly suppor tive of that. * (1 500) We understand that they address tree purging techniques and wood disposal options and the need to better define tree enforcement procedures, and that responsibility for things such as the certification of things like tree pruning has moved from one department over to another department. There is always a great deal of concern with trees in our urban centres. It seems every year there is a great deal of discussion about Dutch elm disease.

They are beautiful trees, and where government can assist in protecting our trees, I think, is a positive thing. Therefore, this particular bill is quite suppor tive of it. Thank you. Madam Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is third reading of Bill 15 , The Dutch Elm Disease Act. Is it the will of the House to adopt the motion. Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. Bill 17 - The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minis ter of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey), that Bill 17, The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'Assemblee legislative), be now read a third time and passed. Motion presented. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Again, very briefly, we understand effectively this bill does allow for things such as the Deputy Chairperson of Committee of the Whole. This will also allow the three sittings during the Estimates process. Madam Speaker, there is no doubt that there have been a number of changes that somewhat speed up the Estimates process. There still are some changes that are, in fact, necessary, and I am hopeful that we will see some of those changes.

I think of LAMC and our rules, the idea of putting into part of our process, or part of our procedures, the time lines. I was a big fan, for example, of the need to have second readings prior to summer, third readings in the fall time. This way it allowed opportunities for more public consultation which I think would have been a positive thing.

I hope it will not be too far in the distant future when we will see positive changes that have been exclu ded from previous discussions, whether it is provisio nal rules or a legislative amendment act, because it is definitely going to continue to be somewhat of an issue over the years, I am sure. Thank you. Madam Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is third reading of Bill 17. Is it the will of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, would you be so kind as to call Bills 25, 21, 4, 12, 14 , 16, 36.

June 2, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 38 17 DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 25-- The Highway Traffic Amendment Act Madam Speaker: To resume adjourned debate on second readings, on the proposed motion of the honourable Minis ter of Hi ghways and Tr ansportation (Mr. Findlay), Bill 25, The High way Traffic Amendment Act (Loi modifiant le Code de la route), standing in the name of the honourable m(:mber for Flin Flon. Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): I would like to put a few words on the record, Madam Speaker, regarding Bill 25, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act.

As the minister has pointed out on April 15 last, as he introduced the bill, the amendments contained within the bill are largely of a housekeeping nature. There are four issues with which the bill deals, four basic issues. The first issue is reciprocal exchange of licences. All other Canadian ju risdictions have either bilateral or unilateral agreements with foreign countries regarding the use of their drivers' licences in Canada or the use of our drivers' licences in other eountr ies.

At present, recipr ocal arrangements are limited to within Canada and the United States, and I believe there are some limited arrangements with NATO personnel as well. Therefore this amendment which authorizes the minis ter to enter into agr eements with foreign ju ri sdictions regarding licence exchange is indeed timely. It is timely because at the brink of the 21s t Century, we can expect to see many more tourists, many more business people coming to Canada, and vice versa. A lot of our people will be going overseas or into other foreign countries.

Although it is true that we can drive in many countries with an international driver's licence, this still requires time and money, and there has to be a way of streamlining this. I believe that this is indeed a way of updating and modernizing, so we are very supportive of this. As well, I am happy to see that the amendment builds in certain safeguards, namely licence reciprocity will only be considered where there is suffici<mt proof that the foreign countries licence qualifications are as stringent or more stringent than our own.

I know that Class 5 and 6 licences, the requirements for them vary considerably from country to country. I happen to know a bit about this, Madam Speaker, because some of my relatives in the Netherlands run driver-training centres or driving schools, and they inevitably talk about how hard it is to get a licence in the Netherlands and how easy it is in Belgium. Now, I do not know if that is true or not. So there are great variations, and we want to make sure for safety's sake that those people granted the right to drive in our country have licences whose requirements exceed our own or are as stringent as our own.

The second amendment, Madam Speaker, deals with repealing the need for fidelity bonds in the trucking industry. Since the trucking industry is now largely deregulated, whether we like it or not, there is little or no need for higher motor carriers to hold fidelity bonds for COD shipments. Other ju risdictions, for example Alberta and Saskatchewan, have also done away with these fidelity bonds. Since truckers from out of the province are not required to carry the bonds, it would place Manitoba truckers at a severe economic disadvantage should they be virtually the only ones forced to carry fidelity bonds.

We have also checked with the industry, and they are very supportive of this direction. Fidelity bonds, therefore, have become redundant. If there is a dispute between the carrier and the shipper, these disputes are normally resolved internally or they could also be resolved by litigation, as has been done in the past. As the minis ter has pointed out, there have been only three cases in the past 15 years where fidelity bonds were actually used. The third amendment, Madam Speaker, involves altering the release-of-information provision regarding medical information.

It is an attempt to make The Highway Traffic Act congruent with the new Personal Health Information Act. Only under limited circum stances can an individual be denied access to his or her personal health information. Prior to this, that is prior to this bill becoming law, a person could only access his or her medical records if the physician who supplied the report gave consent.

3818 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2, 19 98 With this bill, The Hig hway Traffic Act fits in with The Personal Health Information Act, and access to medical information can only be denied if it endangers a person or identifies a third party who supplied the inf ormation in a context where confidentiality can reasona bly be expected. The last amendment, Madam Speaker, is a repeal of some unproclaimed amendments relating to a revised definition of commercial vehicle and requirements regarding the registration of leased public vehicles.

These unproclaimed amendments are redundant because of the vehicle registration rewrite of 19 94 as part of the MPIC Autopac 2000 project. So we are pleased to support this bill, and we look forward to moving it on into comm ittee stage . Thank you. Madam Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 25, The Hig hway Traffic Amendment Act (Loi modifiant le Code de la route). Is it the will of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. House Business Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): On a matter of House Business bef ore we proceed, there will be a number of bills. I understand there is a potential that a number of bills could get passed, and it would be our intention, just so everybody knows, to set a committee for Thursday evening of this week, 7 p.m. [interje ction] Morning? I will come back to you later with this, Madam Spea ker. Sorry for the interruption.

Bili 21-The Commun ities Economic Development Fund Amendment Act Madam Speaker: To resume adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Mini ster of Energy and Mines, Bill 21, The Communities Economic Development Fund Amendment Act (Loi modifia nt la

Loi sur le Fonds de developement economique local), standing in the name of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindal e). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Burrows? Some Honourable Members: No. Madam Speaker: No? Leave has been denied. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, I would just like to make a few final comments. We are going to be passing this bill through the committee. It is a relatively minor bill. It gives additional power to the board of the CEDF in terms of its own aff airs.

I do want to put on the record, this is another example of the kind of vision that the Ed Schreyer government, the NDP government in the 19 70s had. Here in 19 98, we are still seeing the activity of CEDF putting in place that vision. The vision is of the ability of northern communities to be able to develop economically on a basis of community economic development.

I want to suggest to the government that into the next millennium, what we need is to build on that vision, the NDP vision of the 19 70s, and adopt community economic development not only as something that is supplied in the case of the CEDF, not only as something that is supplied in the case of a few programs in rural developmen t but as a keystone, a cornerstone, if you like, of our economic policy in this province. I would like to point to our neighbours to the west in Saskatchewan . When they brought in their budget, they put community economic development first and foremost on their economic strategy.

In fa ct, their budget document goes to some length talking about the community economic development strategies in that province, and they have had a very great deal of success by working with communities and regional develop ment authoriti es. I point to what has happened in Saskatoon, for example, which is a world leader in using the agricultural community and the expertise of the university and applying it to world leading products. I put that on the record because I say we should be doing the same kind of thing in this province.

June 2, I998 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA ��----------�==�==� 38I9 What we need as well is to recognizt� the role in terms of community economic development of both local governments, which is important, but also in terms of the co-op movement and also many of the community development corporations that we have in place, other organizations such as CUS.O, women's organiza tions. I point to what happened in Ontario where women's organizations were fundamentally involved with the Rae government m terms of community economic development. * (15 IO) I am glad that the Minister of Rural Development (Mr.

Derkach) is lis tening because I say to the Minister of Rural Devel opment, he should be arguing more within cabinet to get his department and community economic development higher up on the agenda. I want to see the next budget, if they care to bring in another budget bef ore an election, include the same kind of profile for community economic development that we saw in Saskatchewan. I say to the minister, learn from Saskatchewan, because the NDP in Saskatchewan has built co operation with the co-op movement, and it has a strong strategy.

I say to the Minister of Rural Development, he should save his breath for his cabinet col leagues, because they are not giving enough focus to community economic development in this province. I want to see the next budget document spend as much lime in a high profile way as did the Saskatchewan document. I say that in a constructive way, because I can reference numerous things that can be done in this province. I look at northern Manitoba. For example, there is a lot more that we can be doing in the area of marketing our products. I will give the minister a quick example, and I have raised this with CEDF.

We have many aboriginal communities where people produce handicrafts, a major abil ity to do that, and I say to the minister, what we need to have in place is more assistance to communities on the marketing end and to development of co-ops. I point to the minister, and I do not blame the minister for this, but this government, one of the first things they did was to get rid of the initiative brought in by Jay Cowan, the Minister of Co-op Developmen t, a very signi ficant initia tive in the Co-op Development department.

They basically have ignored co-op development, and there is a great opportunity in northern aboriginal communities on the co-op side, I say to the minister, because he is aware of this. There have been many criticisms of things such as the REDI program, which has had very limi ted success in northern Manitoba. It has done far better in southern Manitoba. But, you know, there is a tale of two provinces.

You could cut a line from Hig hway I, you may go a little bit higher in some areas, but in northern areas of this province, including the Parklands and the Interlake, you still have persistently high rates of unemployment. You still have many communities which are very much looking for diversification. My own community of Thompson, for example, is going through tough times because of the economic circumstances, the mining industry and other areas. But, you know, in northern Manitoba we have more than 20 percent unemployment right now officially, and that does not include a lot of people in aboriginal communities.

I say to the minister, northern Manitoba in particula r has been left out, left out, well, economically it has been left out of the kind of circumstances, and I look at what is happening, say, in Morden-Winkler and some of the areas around there, many of the communities in southern Manitoba. I will go by the words of members opposite. There may be even labour shortages in some parts of the province. I know that is the case, and it is not the same as in southern Manitoba. We do not have a labour shortage in northern Manitoba. When I say we are being left out, I am saying economically.

There is a real problem, and you have a tale of two economies in this province, outside of the city of Winnipeg. You have basically south of Highway I, there have been some difficulties in the flood areas, and I acknowled ge that, but if you look at what has been going on in Morden-Winkler, there are labour shortages in many cases. In northern Manitoba we have an excess of people looking for work. We do not have the kind of megaproje cts we have had, such as Limestone, in place. Mining is downsizing in Thompson. We have

3820 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2, 19 98 had the first direct layoff s really in Thompson history, direct layof fs, oh, and it is related to the price. You see, I am saying to the minister, I am not blaming the government for the price of nickel. What I am saying is that northern communities are that much more anxious right now about diversification, and, well, the minister says they are helping northern communities. I am saying to the minister, you have got to help more. You have got to do more, and I give you specific examples.

I always believe, by the way, in not just criticizing, and there is enough to criticize with this government. I mean, I could spend my entire time in this speech criticizing the government but, at the beginning, and I think the minister may have missed this, I said that CEDF is a good example. It started with a vision in the 19 70s with Ed Schreyer. It has been continued by various governments. The current Mini ster ofln dustry, Trade and technology nearly destroyed it in 19 89, but, you know, it survived that. It is doing well.

It has got a good board, and I say that, you know, the board, they are obviously appointed by the government. I know their politics, but I say it on an individual basis, and I have said that, that they are a good group of people and the boards of CEDF have done well under various dif ferent governments. I have a lot of respect for people who have been involved in the past, the NDP, Nestor Dol insky, by the way, who is just recovering from a health difficulty, but he was involved in the 19 80s on the board from Flin Flon. There are a lot of people who have been involved over the years.

The current board, I give them a lot of credit. I say that because, you know, my belief is that as northeners, one thing where we have an advanta ge, we fight during elections but we sure can work together in between elections. That is what the CEDF is based on. [interjection] The minister is talking about the one-stop shop, which is not quite a one-stop shop anymore actual ly. The Women's Enterprise Centre has moved out of the building, but I say to the minister, it was a positive move. It was a positive move with CEDF when it was moved to Thompson.

That was about the one real advantage of decentralization in 19 90, the movement of the CEDF office to Thompson. I apprecia te the minister does not often get the opportunity to sit in on CEDF hearings, but I have said this in the past. One time I actually put out a press release praising the CEDF for having a good year, but it was not published by the local paper, because they felt it looked too much like a positive PR thing for the government. I belie ve when things work, you give credit where credit is due. CEDF works. CEDF, if anything, can be expanded in the future.

That is what I am giving this speech on the basis of. You know, I think sometimes members opposite-! still remember a fe w years ago when the Mini ster of Education wanted to vote agai nst something because I proposed an amendment in committee, and the Minister of Labour accepted it. It was the sort of thing that if l proposed it, she had to be against it. It was kind of a knee-jerk react ion.

I say to the ministers opposite, we have dif ficult economic circumstances, but all I am suggesting is that the model that could be followed is CEDF; the kind of model of economic development that could be followed is community economic development. There is a lot more that could be done. I can make specific suggestions anytime, anywhere to the minister, to any one in this government about economic development. It is something I have a great deal of personal involvement with. My background is in economics. I have taught community economic development for the Univer sity of Manitoba through IUN.

I have been involved in the community. I have been pushing this for many years now. I believe in fact that the Department of Co-op Development should be in fact rein stated in the form of a community economic development department. I believe there should be some restructuring to bring in the programs and put them in the appropriate forum. I can give the minister lots of suggestions, because the end result is that we cannot ignore the economic circumstances of the northern areas and many remote rural areas in this province.

I say anywhere you go, the further north you get from Highway I, the more you run into economic difficulties, higher rate s of unemploy ment. Even, for example, in the Parkland Region, I know that the member will point to the need for greater

June 2, 19 98 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA ----�----------------------- 38 21 economic diversity in the community of Dauphin and surrounding communities. It is clea r, that is part of the challenge. The same thing in Swan River. The same thing at Interlake. I would suggest very much in, well, Churchill, you know, we have difficult circumstances in Churchill with the rocket range not proceeding right now.

The bottom line, and I want to put this on the record because I believe that community economic develop ment is very much the way for the future role of northern Manitoba, I mean on the kind of level we see in the province of Saskatchewan . I do not take away from anything that has been done by the government. I have said this in the past, I will give credit where credit is due on specific programs. When it comes to programs like REDI, which have not been applicable in northern Manitoba to the extent they should, the minister knows this is an ongoing concern of northern municipal leaders.

I will give him suggt::stions on that too. The reality is that we have to understand that in southern Manitoba, you have small manufacturing that is doing quite well. In northern Manitoba, we have not had the experience with that. We have difficul ty in access to markets. For example, the member for Portage (Mr. Faurschou) represents the fourth largest city, community in the province. I represent the third, a very similar population, very dif fe rent economies. There are a lot of things that could be done in Portage that you just cannot do in Thompson.

So we have to look for different ways of supporting communities and working with them. I believe, by the way, that you can mak<e a difference, particularly in providing expertise. I want to suggest on the record too, more can be done in terms of tourism, particularly in terms of ecotourism in northern Manitoba. We are not even doing what the province of Quebec is doing. I can tell you, I came down from Thompson on Monday.

There were people from Germany who have come all the way from Germany to see our ecosystems, whether it be in Churchill, which is the major draw, but there are more and more people understanding that there is opportunity to not only go to Churchill but to access tourism opportunities through Thompson, through Flin Flon, which has a long-developed tourist potential. I say that has got to be built into our system. We have a government at times that tends to forget that in terms of forestry policies, for example, in regards to Tolko. Concerns have been expressed there.

I think they should be directly involved in making sure that there is proper harvesting of our forest resources. It does not hurt the environment and does not hurt other tourist potential, ecotourism being a classic example. * (1 520) I raised this concern with Tolko recently, for example, on the bay line to Thompson. Local residents complain that logging is taking place right up to the rail line itself .

While that may be within the cutting rights of the company, I am suggesting, and I have suggested to them in writing, that I think it would be advanta geous to keep the kind of wilderness people want to see when they come on the trains, when they come up for reasons of tourism, to keep it visible and not to have logging, clear cutting of any sort take place up to a rail line, any more than you would on a road. You do not have that happen in roads. There are buffer zones that are built in. There are supposed to be buffer zones that occur as well. I say that those are positive examples.

We have got to start building that into our economic strategies. Tourism is one of the growth industries in the world. I say we are fa lling behind particula rly in marketing ecotourism, aboriginal tourism as well. There is a lot of opportunity to take people on the trap lines. There are a lot of people who could get a lot of value added from that. We are missing the boat I think in terms of aboriginal handicrafts. We are not working as a government, providing marketing expertise. I can tell you, the funding is often there. There are three or four lending agencies now, lo an circles.

The bottom line in a lot of case s: we do not have the kind of marketing and professional expertise in place to assist communities to chart their own course. I believe, Madam Speaker, there is no excuse that we have continuing high rates of unemployment in northern Manitoba. I believe that we can plot a strategy now. It will take a long time. But I look at it this way, and I

3822 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2, 19 98 want to put this on the record: I want to suggest that we adopt a policy in this province and we call it the aboriginal advanta ge. We have an economy which is increasingly fa ced with a challenge and that is a signific ant number of seniors, the growing age of our population, and the relative increase of our senior population as relative to our working population. But, if you look at demographics, the growth population in this province, particula rly if you look at the age, is aboriginal people.

I believe if we worked in partnership with First Nations communities and Northern Affairs communities, if we put in place the kind of innovative education and training initiatives that were put in place in the 19 70s by the Schreyer NDP government, the 19 80s by the Pawley NDP government, I believe if we can train and educate that workforce and develop more opportunities in the community through community economic development, through economic development such as ecotourism, through other initiatives such as marketing the traditional handicrafts and traditional customs of aboriginal people, I believe we can be in a position of having a great advantage from that.

I believe aboriginal young people in many cases should be treated by this government, in their declining years here as a government, over their short period of time that they have left, as an advantage for this province. I talk to a lot of aboriginal people and my message as a northern MLA, who is proud to work with First Nations people, is it is time for governments to stop seeing aboriginal issues strictly in terms of problems. Yes, there are social problems; there are issues related to such matters as residential schools and other issues that have to be dealt with.

But I say we should be dealing with aboriginal young people as the hope for the future of this province. If we can provide training and we can provide job opportunities for the aboriginal youth of this province, particularly in northern Manitoba, I say the sky is the limit in terms of economic development, and we going into the next mil lennium, I believe, become leaders in this country using our diverse population. I think also the fa ct we are relatively a small province. I talked with representatives of the third largest city. We are still only 15 ,000 in terms of population. We can work together.

Community economic development applies much more here than it would say in a large province such as Ontario, because we do know our communities. We are all neighbours in this province. We can work together. I say that, because at times I think the government has a shotgun approach to economic development. They do not understand that basis. They certainly do not understand it in the North. They have not worked co-operatively with northern communities. The Cross Lake situation most recently was a good example of that. We have a Premier (Mr. Filmon) that is very rarely seen in northern Manitoba.

When I mentioned the Thompson airport in Question Period earlier, I know that he has on occasion been to Thompson. He certainly has not driven, but I do not expect that. He has not even been to that airport recently, so I understand why he is not all that concerned about the situation at the airport. I think that if there was no airport anywhere in northern Manitoba, this Premier would not notice the dif ference. But, if they closed it in Davos, Switzerland, he might have a real problem then. Or Geneva. I must say I feel better, I sleep better at nights knowing that the Mini ster responsible for I, T and T (Mr.

Downey) is of f for another trip for one week in Geneva defending our interests. I am sure he def ended our interests really well in Geneva, Madam Speaker, but I am only saying this because we-if there is a bit of a cynical edge here, it is because northerners, well, after I 0 years of this government we are getting more than a little bit cynical. But, you know, I do not want to dwell on the fact that northern Manitoba has very li ttle fa ith in this government right now, because even so long as they are in government for one more day, I want them to be doing something for northern Manitoba.

I look forward to the day-and I say this in all truthfulness. I believe there is a very good possibility in the next period of time that the government will finally have the courage to call an election. I tell you, the people of northern Manitoba and many people throughout rural Manitoba and many areas that this government has taken for granted for a long, long time cannot wait for the opportunity to get a change in government. I loved the member's state ment earlier, Madam Speaker. We were talking about rural policy. The member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) talked about

June 2, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 38 23 MTS, when he voted against 78 p�:rcent of his constituents. You know, I look forward to the NDP candi date in La Verendrye in the next el ection asking that member where the heck he was in 19 96, which way he voted when his constituents said not to sell MTS. This government has taken rural and northern Manitoba for granted now for a decade. I say to them enjoy it while it lasts.

Count every day you have left in government as a blessing, because as soon as the people get the opportunity in an election, you be tter watch out and you better never, ever take for granted places in rural Manitoba where you have ruled, the so-called yellow dog country. There are a lot of voters in constituencies who have always supported the Conse rvatives who are now saying the Conservatives have not supported us. You better watch out, because there will not be anywhere near the kind of saf e seats that you have taken for granted in the past.

You better watch out because the people of rural and northern Manitoba are waiting for the opportuni!ty. Call that election and you will find out. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I just wanted to put a fe w words on the record with respect to Bill 21 before it goes to committee. I recognize that it, in essence, assists in facil ita ting the Communities Economic Development Fund. The member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), who is obviously fairly knowledgeable about this particular fund, spoke quite well in terms of the benefits of economic development.

Government does have a role to play. Given that these are not necessarily what I would classif y as controversial amendments-they are quite supportive-we would not have any problem in terms of seeing it go to committee. But before I sit down, I just wanted to add a little bit to what the member for Thompson said.

I can recal l-and I am not too sure if it was through REDI or one of the rural economic development groups-when I was going through, I believe it was, an annual report, and in the annual report it made ref erence to lobsters in the province of Manitoba, where in Manitoba we would be raising lobsters for the local market.

There are, no doubt, many dif fe rent ideas that are out there, and government does have a role to fac ilitate where it can in many dif fe rent ways, whether it is the rural Grow Bonds or HydroBonds or the Communities Economic Development Fund, capital type projects, that these types of things are neces sary because it does assist in fac il itating and diversifying, if you like, the local communities.

One of the reasons why I would ultimate ly argue that Manitoba and particularly the city of Winnipeg does relatively well during the highs and lows of a business cycle is because, relatively speaking, for our population, we are fai rly well diversified. The member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) talked about nickel prices and the benefits of having a diversified economy, that if , in fact, you have fluctua tions in the prices of nickel, you are going to have individuals being hired sometimes in the business cycle; other times, they are going to be laid off. * (1 530) It is nice to be able to have other sectors in which there is employment so there is more of a sense of security, so people can weather the storm, if you like, when it comes time for some form of layof f in one area.

Madam Speaker, we see that in many rural communities, in particular up North where there might be a mine clo sure or something of that nature , the impact is most dramatic. That is why when we look at in itiatives such as the Communities Economic Development Fund that has been around for many years now, we have to recognize not only the short-term benefits but the long-term benefits. With those fe w words, we would like to see it go to committee. Thank you. Madam Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?

The question before the House is second reading Bi ll 21, The Communities Economic Development Fund Amendment Act. Is it the will of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Speaker: Agreed. Agreed and so ordered.

3824 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2, 19 98 Bill 4- The Child and Family Services Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Speaker: To resume adjourned debate, on the proposed motion of the honourable Mini ster of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), Bill 4, The Child and Family Services Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modif iant Ia

Loi sur les services a !'enfant et a Ia famille et modifica tions correla tives), standing in the name of the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Transcona? [agreed] And also standing in the name of the member for Broa dway (Mr. Santos) who has 21 minutes remaining. Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): I am not going to use all of the 21 minutes.

I just want to say that chi ldren are the most helpless element in our socie ty, and theref ore the helpless ones needs the concern and love of those who are strong enough to support them. Of course, we expect parents to be the first ones to come to the aid of their own children. Without the parents, chi ldren will have to go through this world without any guide or help. It is only that we should realize that if we neglect our children, we are creating not only problems in our own family but also problems for the entire society as a whole. Theref ore I would like to speak about the virtues of a good mother.

A good mother is one who can give comfort and stabi lity and confidence and trust to their own children. To a child, a good mother means food. It means their bed, their warmth, their shelter. Chi ldren want to be near the mother whenever they can. If we take away children from their own natural parents, the child will be helpless and they will feel a lack of confidence and a lack of self -esteem and self -respect for themselves. There is no substitute for the care and love and concern of a mother. She is the ever-enveloping, nourishing, protecting eleme nt in the lif e of a young child.

Of course, when mothers are working because of necessity, economic necessity, they have to hire babys itters who are practically strangers to the child, and the child will have to be more or less dependent on these strangers. There are substitutes for parents but the substitute will never be as good as the mother herself . In terms of Bill 4, we created the Office of the Children's Advocate to become an officer of the Legisla ture. This is good in the sense that it gives autonomy to the occupant of the Office of the Child ren's Advocate .

It means the Child ren's Advocate can exercise independent discretion and relative independence. According to the report of the subcommittee, it is this kind of rela tionship, direct reporting to the Legisla tive Assembly, that will ensure greater openness and greater accountability on the part of the occupant of the Office of the Children's Advocate. Moreover, it gives that person the opportunity to give constructive critical feedback on how the child welf are system and agencies are operating within the system with a view to improving the system.

We should remember that child ren are the future citizens of our country. They need all our love, our concern, our care. Just throwing dollars and money on the system cannot make up for the impaired psychological and social ingredients in the psyche when they are growing up when they fe el that they are very insecure and there is no love and concern surrounding their environment.

Whenever the infants are dying in their cribs, in their beds, whenever the chi ldren are hungry and crying, whenever the children cannot adjust and adapt to their environment, we are creating problems not only for ourselves but for the rest of our community. The neglect of children means the increase in del inquency, increase in crimes and violent behaviour among teenagers . Of course, if af fe cts even our justice system.

All of these are interconnected, and the more we pay more attention to the care and welf are of our chil dren, putting that as the virtue in the highest order in our system, the less we will have problems in our society. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, I have a few comments that I would like to make with respect to Bill 4, The Child and Family Services Amendment and Consequ ential Amendments Act, and I will be fa irly brief to give other members the opportunity to comment on this bill as well.

June 2, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 38 25 This is an imp ortant bill, I believe, in that it does make some changes with respect to the Child's Advocate .

I can remember discussions that took place in this Chamber and in public with respect to the government's previous legis lation for the enactment of the Child's Advocate, and I remember at that time, my collea gue our critic for Child and Family Services pointing out very clearly that it was, in our viewpoint, very improper to have the bill at that time and the government indi cating that they wanted to have the Child's Advocate report directly to the minister responsible for Child and Family Services instead of to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

We fe lt that it was impor tant that the Child's Advocate have the opportunity and some latitude or freedom to speak out cl early on the needs of children that were in care and that Advocate could point out, without any fear of inte rference in any way, the needs of the system, the needs of the children of our province.

By the government bringing forward their earlier legis lation forcing the Child's Advocate to report directly to the Minister of Child and Family Services and, indeed, to the government, which was the appoin ter of the Advocate, it put the Advocate under some difficult circumstances in having to, or being caught in a position where they would have to be answerable directly to their political masters for the individual who was holding the Child's Advocate job.

But this Bill 4 does make some changes to the role that the Child's Advocate does play within our province and allows the Child's Advocate now to report to the Legisla tive Assembly of Manitoba, which, we think, is a positive move.

It will give us as legis lators and as representatives, 57 representatives of our communities throughout the province, the opportunity to hear at first hand the comments oft he Child's Advocate and, I hope, will give us the opportunity in future, too, to be able to ask questions of the Child's Advocate should those questions come to mind or we have issues that would be brought forward to us as representati ves from our particular constituenc ies. So we think that would be a positive step.

I lis tened to the debate that is taking place in this Chamber now for the better part of a week with respect to problems within the Child and Family Services department. In fact, there is a crisis that is occurring within the department, I believe, from the inf ormation that I am seeing and hearing that leads me to conclude that there seems to be a

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-57
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 57.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	cc7c5cc4639919cc9a137473b1dc931a265132cf

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