Time : 8 :OO p.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 18 March 1980 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR . CHAIRMAN, Morri s McGregor (V irden) : 2. (a) (l)--pass - the Member for Rossmere . I call the committee to order. MR . SCHROEDER : Ye s. We were discuss ing the aspect of Safety and Research . The Minister spoke just before we broke up for supper, and I had assumed when I loo ked at the Est imates that the

section under Number 3. Planning and Design for $1 ,4 11 ,000 dealt with Safety and Research , and that basically that amount of money was spent in order to ensure that there was safety to the best of the ability of the department in the operation of the highway . Am I correct in making that assumption? MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, to a certain extent because in the design of a road you incorporate as much safety as you can. In other words, taking out hazardous corners, poor bridge al ignments , that sort of thing .

But part and parcel is safety analysis on traffic , etc., within this appropriation as well. MR . CHAIRMAN: 2. (a) (1 )--p ass ; 2. (a) (2 )--pass; 2. (b) (1 )-- pass - the Member for Ste. Rose . MR . ADAM: I wonder if the Minister could advise us in regard to laboratory and materials what he has to report to us this year in new materials or new inno­ va tions that have taken place in the past year. MR . ORCHARD: I'm certainly pleased that my honourable critic has brought this matter to the House because I have great news to report . What we are doing this year , Mr .

Chairman, in laboratory materials, as you will note by the SMY sheet that we are increasing our staff complement by two , what we are doing , Mr. Chairman, is putting a mobile laboratory and a core driller on the road during the construction season to analyze materials as they are being laid down on our roads , to make sure that our quality control is vastly - well not vastly improved but is improved. MR . ADAM: Is that the short commentary that the Minister has to make to us? Is that all that 's happened in the last year in regard to experiments of materials and so on? MR . ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the member asked me what are doing , and that 's the dramatic new thing we are doing . staff by 5 percent in this department to accommodate a more gram of the materials that go into our construction program . dramatic new thin gs we We are increasing our intensive testing pro- As wel l, over the past year, numerous activities have been ongoing .

A number of staff have attended various information meetings on surface quality , and we have done the normal things under this appropriation , Laboratory and Mater ials, plus added the mobile lab and core drilling unit to our staff complement to ensure greater quality control on our construction jo bs . MR . ADAM: The $50 ,000 or $56 ,000, or not quit e $56 ,000, is just the staff man years salaries; is that it , the two • - 1139 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 MR . ORCHARD: The two additional SMYs plus general salary increase and we do have some normal annual increments in there as well. MR . ADAM: My understanding , Mr. Chairman, is that there were some experi­ ments undertaken last year in regard to dust- free construction with a material called terrazime, and another one that has also been experimented with called verglimic . Is this a Swiss product? I wonder if the Minister could tell us the results of those experiments . MR .

ORCHARD: On the terrazime experiment, we won 't be able to properly evaluate that until this summer's driving season is well passed . We ' 11 get a pretty good feel for it on that , after this summer's driving . MR . ADAM: Could the Minister tell us just how much road work was done with this kind of ••• what is it , anyway? MR .

ORCHARD: Terrazime is a compound that has come to us from a firm in Alberta and basically, as I understand the process of terrazime, it 's a clay stabilizer which firms up, stabilizes the clay component in your road base and allows you to make almost, if I can make a non-engineering comparison , almost a soil cement-like sub-grade with th is terrazime and clay mixture . It 's a stabili­ zing and hardening agent for clay. MR . ADAM: Would that allow us not to use chloride in our road works? MR . ORCHAR D: That would be a net result , but that wasn 't necessarily the prime function for using terrazime.

Along with the hard surface which you would lay an oil surface on top of, an oil treatment , you would naturally end up with a dust on the surface, but primarily terrazime has been experimented with not only by our department but by a number of municipalities in terms of the sub- grade stabilization to lower construction costs over conventional methods . MR . ADAM: How much have we done? I asked the Minister awhile ago to tell me how many , what have we done. Half a mile , a mile, five miles, ten miles? MR . ORCHAR D: About five miles. MR. ADAM: About five miles. Is there a cost to that? What is the cost?

Is there a big cost? MR . ORCHARD: We 'll have to get that figure for the Member for Ste. Rose , but it seems to me that in some of the work the municipalities did at home , I think around $10 ,000 a mile wou ld give you the ••• MR . ADAM: How much ? MR . ORCHARD: $10 ,000 a mile sticks in my mind from memory only from some of the work that a municipality in my constituency did, but don 't quote me . We 'll get a firm figure . MR . ADAM: Where is the five miles? Where is it? What kind of conditions MR .

ORCHARD: We 've got the strip east of Winnipeg, I believe it 's on PR 205 , and you can only use the terrazime system with a clay subsoi l. If you 've got a sandy subsoil it 's not effective , it has to be a clay type subsoil . MR . ADAM: And what about the other product? MR . ORCHARD: The verglimi c. MR . ADAM: Yes. - 1140 -

Tuesday , 18 March 1980 MR . ORCHARD: We 've got to test incorporation of that on the asphalt overlay on the overpass west . that? MR . ADAM: On the overpass MR . ORCHAR D: Over Portage Avenue on the bypass . MR . ADAM: Oh , I see, west . I see. That 's the only place that we have MR . ORCHARD: Yes. MR . ADAM: I see . That 's all for now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rossmere . MR . SCHROED ER: Yes. On the item of laboratories and materials. I take it this is the area where your department tests materials which are being used to construct our hig hways in the province . Is that correct? MR .

ORCHARD: That's correct, yes . MR . SCHROEDER : What is the general procedure? Is this done for every road that is on occasion you have inspectors going out and scooping up material to see whether it meets qualifications or what are the criteria on which you decide to do this testing? MR . ORCHARD: In preparing a road job, for instance you may have (

a) base and (

c) base , the quantities of (

a) base and (

c) base will both be tested several times throughout the batch, like you may be talking 10,000 yards, considerable quantities, 20 ,000 yards, 50 ,000 yards. It will be tested on an ongoing basis on each job to assure that they 're within the specification tolerances for that part­ icular grade of materia l. MR . SCHROEDER : Do you generally have someone on site to do the testing or is the material taken into the city to a lab or is it a combination? MR . ORCHARD: We have both testing available, on site for on the spot quality control and then more extensive tests if necessary in Winnipeg . MR .

SCHROEDER : How often does it happen percentagewise that the material is found by your laboratory not to be satisfactory and is therefore rejected? MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, that 's not an easy one to put a figure on but it 's not all that large . In terms of percent, I wouldn't even want to put a percent on it . MR . CHAIRM AN: 2. (b) - the Member for Lac Du Bonnet. MR . USKIW : Yes, Mr. Chairman, I wou ld like to ask the department whether there are any jurisdictions in North America which have found a way of dealing with the problems of our climate and what it does to our road system?

Perhaps it 's the input we put into the roads, I don't know, but if you go into the United States it seems to me in the northern states their climate is not much di fferent than ours and yet we don't see the surface deterioration as we have here in Manitoba. What is it that we are doing wrong or what is it that they are doing more than we are doing that makes it so? It 's probably money but •• MR . ORCHARD: Well, Mr .

Chairman , I think what often happens to us north­ erners when we visi t our neighbours to the south , we end up on their interstate freeways which are magnificent structures and I think probably the only road that we have of comparable construction standards in Manitoba might be TransCanada - 1141 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 Highway which by comparison --( Interje ction )- - Well the honourable member indicates it doesn 't compare . I think by and large its pretty close. But the construction methods that wou ld vary between the interstates and here might be in terms of several inches of aggregate for base and several inches of concrete for the riding surface to give them their apparent durability over ours on the interstate system itse lf.

When you get down to North Dakota 's secondary road system, I'v e spoken to those people and they don 't enjoy any particular magic fonnula for keeping their secondary roads in shape . They 're having much the same problems that we are. They 're finding that , due to changing factors , their secondary system isn't able to stand up as well as they would like to see it stand up. MR . USKIW: Well , Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could quantify for us the di fference in cost per mile as between our TransCanada and their inter­ state?

What is the difference in cost and what is the longevity of the road , the difference? MR . ORCHARD: It wou ld be, Mr. Chairman , not the easiest cost comparison to make. I suppose those kind of figures might be, but if we got a standard, a con­ struction standard for an interstate hig hway and compared it to the construction standard that we have in the TransCanada , we could probably come up with a do llars per mile difference in construction cost . That information is not available here tonight . MR . USKIW: Well, Mr .

Chairman, I'm not trying to be precise , but is it half a million do llars a mile , or is it a quarter, or is it 100 ,000, what parameters are we looking at? MR . ORCHARD: My Deputy indicates to me that Interstate 29 was approxi­ mately $400 ,000 per mile , wherea s Trans-C anada came in at about $200 ,000 per mile . So we 're talking roughly multiples of two . MR . USKIW: Twice the cost. MR . ORCHARD: Those are rough figures. Those aren't precise figures, but I think he 'd have a ballpark ratio of about 2 to l? MR . USKIW: Well , Mr . Chairman, let's pursue it another step then.

If we were to double our expenditures on that kind of a highway , on a per mile basis , what would be the reduction in maintenance costs per annum, or whatever the yard­ stick is , given the fact that we have a much better road to begin with? I'm wondering whether it 's six of one and hal f a dozen of the other over a 20-y ear period , is really what I'm trying to find out . MR . ORCHARD: Mr .

Chairman, when you 're talking concrete as we were in that case, there's very little dif ference in maintenance to our construction standard to the American construction standard, and I guess the problem I would face, as other Minist ers in this department have faced in making that kind of a decision, is do you spend all your money on a few miles or do you attempt to upgrade many many more road s; and we are , Mr . Chairman, always working with a limited budget which doesn 't lend itself to putting $400 , OOO or twice the money per mile in.

When we can get a riding surface th at 's going to stand up for, well, for example, No . 3 Highway , that concrete

section to Carman that 's been down 20 years and has had very minimal maintenance; last summer it had some patchin g and other than that I th ink it 's been very minimal maintenance. MR . USKIW : The whole point of my question is, Mr . Chairman, that if you spent the extra money to begin with and over a reasonable period of time you recovered that di fference in maintenance savings , then it 's not altogether a bad argument to say , let's do the job right in the first place. If there isn't that much to be saved by maintenance savings , or less maintenance cos ts, then of course I won 't pursue the argument . But if it 's a trade-off situation and you end up - ll42 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 with the same dollars virtually , there's a lot of argument to be made for going the best route to begin with , going for the higher quality or hig her standard con­ struction . MR . CHAIRMAN: 2. ( b) (1 )--pass; 2. (b) (2 )--pass; 2. ( c) (1 )--pass . The Member for Ste. Rose . MR . ADAM: I'm wondering, these figures that we see here, the first one I notice that comes to my attention that last year it was shown in the - I don 't have last year's Est imates book - but we show on the left- hand column here $497 ,000, and I see in Hansard that it was $486,5 00.00.

Does this mean that we 've spent actually more than what was appropriated? MR . ORCHAR D: adju stment. That , Mr . Chairman, is the adjusted vote for salary MR . ADAM: Salary adjustment. Okay . What 's new in surveys? Are there any changes? MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, we 're operating with the same staff complement and basically the same branch offices, the program in this division hasn 't changed from last year. MR . ADAM: There's one vacancy; that will be filled, I presume . MR . ORCHAR D: It will be filled in the course of the year , yes , Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas. MR .

RONALD McBRYDE: Mr . Chairperso n, I as sume this will be the

section under which to enquire as to the Surveys and Titles and to enquire into acquisi­ tion of right-o f-way; and I wonder if the Minister could explain the problems and the present situation in regard to acquiring right-of- way for • • • MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, the acquisi tion of right-of- way is not part and parcel of Department of Highways . That comes under Land Acquisition Branch , Government Services. We basically file a plan of survey for the right-o f-way that we may require in upgrading a road , and it is then Government Services via Land Acquisition Branch which does the acquisiti on. MR .

McBRYDE: Mr . Chairman, through you to the Minister , I wonder if the Minister could inform me as to the acquisit ion of land so that he can upgrade and pave Highway No . 283, whether that land has been acquired yet so he can proceed with that work , or whether the Minister does not have that right-o f-way as yet . MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, we can check that information with Pl anning and Design and provide it to the member tomorrow. MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would appreciate that because this particular acquisi tion has been going on for four years now. MR .

ORCHARD: We 'll provide you with that information. It 's not complete yet . MR . McBRYDE: I wonder if the Minister could outline in a general way what the problems are , why it 's taken four years to acquire that right-o f-way . MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, I can only assume that we 've got a problem with a, or several , land owners that have yet to be resolved , and I can provide you with the details tomorrow as to the exact location of the land that still isn 1 t acquired for the purpose. - 1143 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr . Chairperso n, I'm just trying to remember the proper word s, but I wonder if the Minister , when he is making that inquiry and provid ing more information tomorrow, could tell when the province began its expropriation of that particular land, and how long after initial negotiations they undertook expropriation? MR . ORCHARD: Certainly . MR . CHAIRMA N: 2. (c) (l) - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR . ADAM: Mr . Chairman, this is the department that looks after the acquisiti on, is it? No? MR .

CHAIRMAN: 2. (c) (l)- -pass ; 2. (c) (2) --pass ; 2. (d) (l) - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR . ADAM: Yes, could the Minister tell us how many bridges did we con­ struct this year , and is our program under the Highways Improvement Program cost­ -shared with the federal, is that program ongoing , are there still more bridges to construct? How many have we done this year? MR . ORCHARD: Mr .

Chai rman, we 've got 20 bridges outside of • • • when I mention 20 bridges those are considered to be, let's call them a major bridge , we have an ongoing fund which allows us to replace smaller bridges on PH 's which come up as a matter of urgency, and that isn 't included in the 20. We may replace two or three of them for instance in this construction year. But we don't have any particular timing on them. They 're a matter of an emergency replacement , shall we say .

There are no funds available via the hig hway strengthening program which is where we received funds for the past several years for the upgrading , strengthen­ ing of our highways and portions of that going of course to bridge and structure rebuilding . MR . ADAM: Then the program that we undertook in previous years , has been completed insofar as the funds that we had available . Is that correct? MR . ORCHARD: As far as the funds that were available on the hig hway strengthening program , yes they are expended. MR .

ADAM: Yes, last year the Member for Flin Flon had a concern in regard to a bridge on No . 10 and he wanted to know if a bridge that the Minister had mentioned in his comments, whether it was a bridge at Bakers Narrows and the Member for Flin Flon asked the followi ng : "Does that take in the bridge at Baker 's Narrows that you ' re going to replace for a higher load capa city . 11 And the reply from the Minister , 11 I'm advised by staff that is the one remaining bridge on the designated route ." And Mr. Barrow said , "Just the one , there are two bridges. Does that just include one bridge?

There 1 s two bridges in that area ." And the Minister replied , "We call it one location, there are two bridges involved ." And Mr . Barrow said , "They will both be replaced in this program? " And the Minister replied , "Money permitting they will be replaced ." So I presume that they have been replaced or they haven't been replaced? MR . ORCHARD: Those bridges were not replaced under the hig hway strength­ ening cost sharing . The money ran out before those bridges were replaced. We will be replacing them but it 's going to be at provincial expense ; it 's going to be our expense .

We 're rebuilding one and moving the second one . So we are actually going to be building one new bridge. MR . ADAM: Is that shown on the program? I doubt whether that is shown on the program so where are you going to get the appropriation to do it? MR . ORCHAR D: It 's not on the program but it isn 't going to be built this year , Mr. Chairman. - ll44 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 MR . ADAM: I see. So , they were not built last year and they're again not going to be built this year . MR . ORCHARD: That's correct. MR . ADAM: So some distant day in the future they may be built? They will be replaced before they fall down? Mr . Chairman, how many bridges have we replaced th is year , 1979-80? MR. ORCHARD: All the bridges that were in the program have been completed, Mr . Chairman. MR . ADAM: There's no figures for that, how many bridges we replaced? How many on secondary roads? MR . ORCHARD: We 'll have to give the member an exact figure tomorrow on PTH and PR . MR .

ADAM: Good enough . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas. MR . McBRYDE: Mr . Chairper son, I think the Minister is aware of the pro­ blems with the bridge that 's been constructed at Grand Rapids , the main bridge over the Saskatchewan River on No . 6 Highway . The problem there, Mr. Chairperson, being that the - a number of problems. The bridge has a very high camber ; it 's arched quite extreme so it 's hard to see very far in front of you when you' re driving over it . The bridge is also affected by fog because there is open water below the Grand Rapids hydro damn .

And the other particular local problem that 's very concerning related to that is the fact that there are a large number of pedestrians from the Grand Rapids Reserve that walk into town over that bridge , and I wonder what definite actions the Minister has taken so far on the request from the people of Grand Rapids to have improvements to that bridge to make it a safe situation . One of their requests was, Mr . Chairperson , for improved lighting on that bridge so that pedestrians could be seen easier.

Another one was to ensure that the sidewalks were kept clear at all times so that pedestrians wouldn 't have to walk on the main roadway and could always use the sidewalk. I think the Minister is aware of that situation so I wonder if he could report to us what actions have been taken by the deparment. MR . ORCHARD: Well, Mr . Chairman, we had instituted several measures to help alleviate the problem the re . First off we lowered the speed limit down to I believe 50 ki lometers.

The second thing we did was instruct the department to make sure that there was a high level of maintenance on that walkway this winter so that we would encourage the pedestrians to stay on the sidewalk. And then the third thing that we are hopefully undertaking this summer is the installation of a pedestrian guard rail.

Not so much to ass ure that anything else happens other than the pedestrians stay on the sidewalk and dont 't inadvertently wander back and forth because that bridge does have a high camber and your line of sight as you approach in a vehicle is not all that great and that 1 s the prime reason why we lowered the speed limit so that we have slower moving vehicles crossing the bridge . MR . McBRYDE: Mr . Chairman, I was going to get the Minister to confirm that he has budgeted and has plans now to do the guard railing; and secondly, does he have any plans to improve the lighting on that bridge? MR . ORCHARD: Mr .

Chairman, we are going to install the guard rails this summer . The lighting was not something that we were going to undertake . MR . McBRYDE: Mr . Cha irperson, that was one of the main , I think, recom­ mendations from the people of Grand Rapids, was the light ing aspect of it . Anyway, Mr . Chairman, to move on to another ; there's a provincial road that goe s through the Fair ford Reserve and a bridge over the Fairford River and that bridge - 1145 -

Tuesday , 18 March 1980 seems to me as a non-engineer to be getting pretty shakey, I wouldn 't want to take something over it when there is high water, and I wo nder if there is any concern by the department or whether there is any money for further maintenance or repair work on that particular bridge? MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chai rman, that bridge is on a main market road and the department hasn 't been advised of any request for upgrading on that bridge . MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, could the Minister , one, clari fy the legal si tuation on that bridge , whose respons ibility that bridge is, whether the province is 50 percent responsible or what would be the arrangement, and then, who would the request or the concern come forward from? MR . ORCHARD: I'm sorry , I was anticipating your question and I missed it . MR . McBRYDE: Yes, the question to the Minister , Mr . Chairperso n, was the - what was it again? Who is responsible for that bridge , and is the province only 50 percent responsible or 100 percent?

And secondly , the second part of the question was, where would the concern, where would the request for repair on that bridge come from? MR . ORCHARD: That is a main market road , and when main marke t roads are within the territory of Reserves, we share the cost with the federal Department of Indian Affairs on a 50-50 basis. In terms of initiating the request to have the bridge upgraded or a study done on it to see if it was structurally sound , I would assume the Band Council would initiate that kind of a request , Mr. Chairman. MR .

McBRYDE: So the Band Coun cil would make a formal request to the Minister for engineering studies on that bridge to have its condition checked out and recommend repairs if any were necessary? MR . ORCHARD: Yes, that would be the proper procedure. MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr . Chairperson, again through you to the Minister, one of the items on the list of the residents of Norway House, when they visited us at the Legi slative Building last summer , was a request for a bridge in that com­ munity .

I believe one bridge , as they have some there now, and I wonder if there is any planning at this stage or whether the engineering feas ibility studies have been done on that bridge, and cost estimates done, and whether there is any inten­ tion of work being done on that bridge . MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, the design for the bridge has been completed. We have got an approximate cost . We have got a location picked out , and we are in the process of - at least the last information I have received from the department - negotiating the land right-o f-way for location of the bridge . MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr .

Chairperson , as I understand the Minister 's rela­ tionship with the Manitoba NORTHLANDS Agreement, I'm wondering if this particular bridge has been one of the items put forward to the NORTHLANDS Co-ordinat ing Committee to the federal government, whether he has actually asked to have this in his submission to the Department of Regional Economic Expan sion , to include it in the Manitoba NORTHLANDS Agreement. MR . ORCHARD: The NORTHLANDS ' money that was available was expended before we got to this bridge , so it isn 't part of the NORTHLANDS ' funding . MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr .

Chairman, I assume from the Minister 's other answer that, in fact, there is not funds for actual construction budgeted for this year ; is that correct? MR . ORCHARD: No , we have funds budgeted for construction this year . MR . McBRYDE : For construction of this bridge for this year? - 1146 -

Tuesday, 18 March 198 0 MR . ORCHARD: That 's right . MR. McBRYDE: Okay . Mr . Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could give us an indication as to some of the cost estimates or projections for that. MR . ORCHARD: In the neighbourhood of $800 ,000 , Mr . Chairman . MR . McBRYDE: Mr . Chairperso n, this is one reason why I wanted to get some breakdown earlier from the Minister in terms of the NORTHLANDS Agreement but he was unwil ling to give me that information until we get to those particular items , but they wou ld help as we proceed through this

section "Others ", and I wonder, now, if the Minister has changed his mind and is willi ng to give me some informa­ tion on the Highways part of the funding under the NORTHLANDS Agreement. MR . McBRYDE: Mr . Chairman, there has been discussion for a number of years on a bridge at Berens River and I wonder MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, might I offer a correction . We just checked that and, in fact, the $800 ,000 or rough cost is part of NORTHLANDS funding for this year . It is part of the $3 million or about $3 million we 've got left over to fund this year , and that project is included in it . MR .

McBRYDE : I thank the Minister for that My next question to the Minister was in regards to some discussion of a bridge in that community for a if the Minister has done any initial planning, propos al. informatio n, Mr . Chairperso n. Berens River . There has been number of years, and I wonder engineering studies on that MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, there's no funding for that bridge this year. MR . McBRYDE : Mr . Chairperson , I wonder how far long that is in terms of has there been any engineering studies or is there money for that , or is there zero funds for any work on that . MR .

ORCHARD: The Bridge Department has done studies on the location . That much work has been done, Mr . Chairman. MR . McBRYDE: Mr . Chairman , earlier on in these Estimates we had some dis­ cussions of the Cross Lake road and I'm wondering, under this particular

section , if the Minister could give us some indication. My recollection of the original guesstimates on the construction of that road is that there were two bridges required and if I'm wrong there would be three. I wonder if the Minister could inform us of the engineering work that's been done in terms of the bridges to put an all-wea ther road into Cross Lake , and whether those will be included under NORTHLANDS ' fundings and whether those bridge will be proceeding this year, as well as the construction that 's presently under way. MR .

ORCHARD: As I mentioned to the member on Friday , cable ferry is what will be used there . There are no bridges on the road construction that 's being undertaken right now. MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr . Chairman, I'm assuming then that the Minister 's department did some cost esti mates of bridge construction and I wo nder if the Minister could tel l me how many costings there are on that road and what the cost estimates were if they were actually going to use bridges on that ro ad. MR . ORCHARD: Well, we ' 11 have to get that information from Planning and Desig n . We don 't have it available this evening . MR .

McBRYDE: Mr . Chairman , I wonder if the Minister could make sure of the number of crossings and the proposed methods of each crossing , because there might be two or three crossings on that particular road so there might be a combination of cable ferry, fill-in or whatever , a causeway or whatever . - 1147 -

Tuesday , 18 March 1980 Mr . Chairman, that 's the questions I have under this section. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR . USKIW: Yes, Mr . Chairman. I would like to ask the Minister whether or not there is any work contemplated , or what is the pos ition of the government with respect to the Winnipeg River bridge , that narrow one north of Lac du Bonnet, the old railroad bridge that was converted to a Highways Department bridge . We 've dealt with that one before. The question is its narrowness and what can be done about it in order to facil itate a flow of traffic in a reasonable manner .

It 's an issue that 1 s always raised locally up there and I don 1 t know what the traffic volume is, bu t I know that there's quite a backup at either side of that bridge during the summer months. MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr . Chairman, there are no plans for any new structure there in this year 's program. MR . USKIW: The question I have though , Mr . Chairman, is whether or not there's any way of wi dening the present structure . MR . ORCHARD: We 'll check that out for certain but it appears doubtful if that bridge could be widened . MR .

USKIW: Does the department have any idea what the cost wou ld be to then add either a brand new bridge or another lane, independent of the one that exists? MR . ORCHARD: We don 't have any figures at hand here this evening . If the member would like a gue sstimate on the cost , we can provide him with that. MR . USKIW: Well , Mr . Chairman, it seems to me that I don 't know wha t the sol ution is. I have to assume that it 's an expensive proposition to talk about a new bridge . Does the department have statistics to indicate the severity of traffic jams in that area?

What 's the traffic count that goes across that bridge? I'm sure the department has been monitoring that for some period of time. MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, we no doubt have those traffic counts on record but of course they're not with us this evening . MR . USKIW: The point of my question is, Mr . Chairman , do the traffic counts justif y an expenditure of money in order to facilitate the traffic flow? That's in essence what I'm trying to get at.

And is the Minister in a position to say, yes , there is jus tification for some work to be done there, or no , the traffic is not significant enough for an expenditure of dollars? MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr . Chairman, when we get that information on traffic count, etc., etc. , I can give the member an indication of where that bridge replacement wou ld fit into the overall priorities that we have to work with in the province. At this stage of the game I can't give him an indication whether it 's a pressing need or a very remote need. But we will undertake to provide that kind of information to him. MR .

USK IW: Well , Mr . Chairman, I know that it 's not a remote need; I just don 't know how it stacks up with other needs in the province relative to the same vo lume of traffic , and that 's the point I'm trying to make . MR . ORCHARD: Well, Mr . Chairman, I can't offer any more comment until we get the traffic counts and we 'll provide those tomorrow or , for certain, on Thursday. MR . USKIW: Well, Mr .

Chairman, wou ld the Minister be prepared then to provi de, for the benefit of this commi ttee, a number of such projects with their traffic counts in order to indicate some sense of priority as to which sort of - ll48 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 location is the one heading the list , in terms of whenever moneys are made avail­ able, in terms of their traffic flow , and so on. MR . ORCHARD: If the Member for Lac du Bonnet would like , we could probably pull out some traffic counts on, for instance, the bridges that we 're replacing this year , to give him a comparison and the dollars that we 're guesst imating them to cost and make a general comparison to the dollars to be invested there, for the traffic count there, certainly . MR . USKIW: Yes.

My next question with respect to bridges has to do with • Well, there are two questions . One has to do with a new bridge location north of Lockport that has been studied for some years now by the department, and the other question, Mr .

Chairman, is when are we going to receive an answer with respect to the approach to the existing bridge at Selkirk, the area across the flood plane which the department has been looking at now for a good number of years as to finding a solution to the virtually annual flooding that takes place in that area and which forces the traffic many miles around in order to get to its destination? And especially truck traffic , Mr . Chairman; heavy trucks have to go all the way round the perimeter if that bridge is closed . MR . ORCHARD: Well, Mr .

Chairman, in this year 's Est imates we 've budgeted moneys for a study on the Selkirk br idge and its location to find out where a proper location wou ld be, and part and parcel of that study is an effort to alleviate, the best way we can alleviate, some of the flooding problems that he 's indicating . MR . USKIW: Yes. Well, then to pursue it further , Mr . Chairman, is the Minister saying then that he is looking at the question of a new location for a new bridge that wou ld also answer the flood problem or is he abandoning the existing location? MR . ORCHARD: Mr .

Chairman, I'm not saying that the proposed bridge or the bridge that may well go in there is going to alleviate the flood problem com­ pletely. That is a question which is going to get hung up of course on how many do llars it 's going to take to provide that kind of protection. Sometimes you have to, unfortunately, make a trade-off between economies and in realization of abso­ lutely no flooding . MR . USKIW: Mr .

Chairman, I wou ld really like to know whe ther the depart­ ment is looking at two bridges or one bridge ; whether they 're looking at the existing one plus one or whether they 're jus t looking at the existing one. MR . ORCHARD: Hopefully, we will come up with the most economical , whether it be exising plus new, etc., when we undertake a complete review of the needs in the area and also the changing patterns of traffic flow in there, which we hope to accommodate for some 25 to 30 years, if and when we decide upon a location. It 's not just for one location for one year.

We have to make sure we invest our dollars wisely in that structure. So , you know , basically I guess what I am saying is I can't tell you whether we 're going to eliminate the old one and put in one , leave the old one and put in a brand new one at a different location. That 's the purpose of the study . MR . USKIW: Well, Mr .

Chairman, jus t for the benefit of the Minister , and I don •t fault him if he doesn 't know the history or the full story , but there was a great deal of discussion within the department about a new bridge , additio nal to the one that is in existence now, that would link up the road to Stonewall across to the 44 Hig hway on the east side of the Red. Now I am pleased to hear the Minister say that they are looking at it from the point of view of tying in traffic arteries and, at the same time, facilitating the bridge problem, the flood problem .

And if that were the case, then it really wou ld follow or flow from the suggestions that I have made to the department for a number of years now that we ought to really look at traffic flows when we talk in - 1149 -

Tuesday , 18 March 1980 terms of building and new structure across the Red River , so that we take a com­ pletely futuristic position in terms of location . And if that were reasonably located, then I don't think that people wou ld be upset , Mr . Chairman, if they had to travel a few mi les out of their way to the new location if the old location was flooded , and so, that makes a lot of sense. What amount of do llars have been allocated? I thought we did location studies for the last two or three years , Mr. Chairman.

As a matter of fact, I know that in 1976 , I believe, we had given instructions to the department to do location studies. Surely there must be something determined by this point in time ; it • s now four years later. MR . ORCHARD: Well, Mr .

Chairman, as is not unusual with a rapidly growing traffic area like Selkirk , your choice of a best location is the old moving target again and the tie-in with the Stonewall Road is a consideration and the tie-in with the Selkirk by-passes is another consideration and , you know, I think we 're taking the right attitude in attempting to provide the greatest utility in that crossing location that we can for the present and the growing traffic flows that are going to be in that area. MR . USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman, it would seem to me that if there is to be a new structure built , I would hope that it be a structure that would be futur­ is tic , that it would be a four-lane structure , even though you may not have four­ -lanin g of hi ghways on each side for the moment , but that it be so located that it wou ld facilitate traffic in and out of the Town of Selkirk in particular. That is the heavy area of traffic flow. I know that the department had some ideas of simply linking up the Stonewall Road with Highway 44 just east of the Red but considerably south from Selkirk.

And with the 59 Highway having been built and Henderson Highway having been rebuilt, it would seem to me it might make a tremendous amount of sense to link in 45 and the Stonewall Road somewhere closer to the Town of Selkirk than to the community of Lockport , as an example. It seemed to me that might service the traffic flow much more in tune with what the public wish wou ld be than to simply make a link at a convenient geographi cal location per se .

It doesn 't take much imagination to swing a road in a couple of miles one way or the other if it 's going to make a world of di fference to the community involved . MR . ORCHARD: Fair comment. MR . CHAIRMAN: 2. (d) - The Member for St . Vital . MR. WALDI NG : Mr . Chairman, when the Minister was replying to my colleague for Ste. Rose about bridges and preparing small ones on an emergency basis he said that the department has an ongoing fund to deal with it . May I ask him what he means by an ongoing fund? MR .

ORCHARD: We 've got a set-aside fund of about $800 ,000 or $900 ,000 to undertake emergency repairs and replacement of some of the smaller bridges that aren't part of when the road program is drawn up , aren't part of the construction appropriati on . It 's an emergency replacement fund and has been in existence for a number of years . MR . WALDI NG : Mr . Chairman, the word "ongoing" suggests to me something that carries on from year to year and it 's one fund that is still there and is added to and is taken from .

Is this what the Minister is inferring and how does that square with the statement he made earlier that all appropriations lapse at the end of the year. MR . ORCHARD: Well, it fits in quite well. As I say , we 've got about an $800 ,000 addition each year and , should we not expend it, we 're in rather difficult straits . But we 've got some 2, 800 bridges and on an annual basis it is proven out through past experience that we pretty well have to expend. It 's not a choi ce of trying to, it 's pretty well have to expend that kind of money each year on undertaking emergency repairs. - 1150 -

Tuesday , 18 March 1980 MR. WALDING: Mr . Chairman, the Minister really didn't answer the question as to whether it 's a fund that does continue over from one year to the next or whether any amounts from that $800 ,000 or $900 ,000 that he mentions do in fact lapse at the end of the year . MR . ORCHARD: Well, anything that is left over of the appropriation cer­ tainly will lapse , but it 's replenished .

Each year we make an appropriation to that fund to assure that we always have dollars in place to undertake an emergency repair program which is unforseen when we draw up the road program and select our major bridge locations for replacement. MR . WALDING : Could the Minister tell us which appropriation that $800 ,000 to $900 ,000 co mes under, Mr . Chairman? MR . ORCHARD: 15(6 ) , Mr. Chairman. MR . WALDI NG : Mr . Chairman, I don 't have a 15(6) ; mine only goes up to 9. MR . ORCHARD: Well, we better call it Resolution 8 5 then, Appropriation 6, No . 6. MR . WALDING : Thank you , Mr . Chairman, I have it now .

I am not sure whether the question was asked at the beginning of the Estimates but I would like to ask the Minister whether there were any special warrants in this department since April lst? MR . ORCHARD: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR . WALDING : Would the Minister give us details of them, pleas e? MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman , we 've got a special warrant in the amount of $6 ,5 98,8 00 .0 0. MR . WALDING : Is that one si ngle warrant and was that the only one issued , Mr . Chairman? MR . ORCHARD: Yes , Mr. Chairman, it 's one single one and it 's the only one. MR .

WALDING : Can the Minister indicate the purpose for the special warrant and the date of its issuance and what has it been used for? MR . ORCHARD: I would have to check on the exact date for the member. We 've got roughly $1 million in the general salary increase . We had an increased winter maintenance budget last year because of the pro longed spring, and we had extra gravel that were used to restore the provincial roads which were ruined by the • MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR . ADAM: I wonder if the Minister , while we 're on that item, if he would gi ve us a breakdown on that in dollars. MR .

ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, the figures are roughly available and I don't know whether it would be necessary to give the exact dollars that we have in here or not . We 've got a number of items , in cluding a $2 million over-expenditure in our construction because of last fall.

We had two things working in our favor on this special warrant , if you want to call it working in our favor ; we had an extremely poor spring which caused unusual levels of expenditure in the spring season and then we had a very good fall which gave us an extra sho t in the arm in the construction season and got a little more construction done than what we had anticipated. - 1151 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 MR . WALDING: I wasn 't asking to have the amount broken down into very great detail . I wou ld like to ask the Minister then that , apart from the $1 mil­ lion that he has still unexpended from the special warrant, can he then assure us that the two major reasons for the special warrant were , first of all, the flood­ ing that we had last year and the opportunity to do a little extra construction in the fall? Wo uld that be the reason for the MR .

ORCHARD: As long as you include the general salary increases , as well , because that took up very close to $1 million and it wasn 't only the prolonged winter and the extra maintenance, it was the spring weather which caused us to have to put extra gravel on provincial roads , so it was the prolonged winter and the long brea k-up period in the spring . But yes , and plus the construction period resulted in the majority of our special warrant. MR . WALDING : Then, Mr . Chairman, since the Minister indicated to my col­ league from Ste.

Rose this afternoon that the balance of the approved authoriza­ tion as of a year ago is likely to be expended by the end of March , clearly the figures that we should be comparing here is not $137 million to $14 9 million , but more like $143.5 million to $14 9 million, which would then indicate to me , Mr. Chairman, that the increase in Hig hways is more of the nature of $5 .5 million than the $12 mi llion which would appear from reading the Est imates. Would this be correct? MR . ORCHARD: Well , close , Mr .

Chairman, except that we did lose under lapse of two are as, $1 ,66 8,0 00 or thereabouts , about $1 .7 million that we lost in the lapse which equated to the capital overexpenditure on our construction bud­ get . So that , b Y and large , the majority of the increase that we have by special warrant , has taken general salary increase and the adverse spri ng weather takes up the majority of it . MR . WALDING : Mr . Chairman, the lapse to funds there that the Minister refers to of $1 .7 million, I think, was surely for the previous fiscal year , 1978-79 .

My comparison was with the 1979 -80 year as with the projected 198 0-81 year . So the lapsing really had nothing to do with the spending for the year which we are just ending . MR . ORCHARD: Yes, the lapse is in last year's capital. MR . WALDING : So what we are then looking at , Mr . Chairman, when it comes to Highways , is an increase of some $5 .5 milli on for the coming year over the actual for the year 1979 to 1980 . MR . ORCHARD: Did you say what figure increase actually? MR . WALDING : The figure I used was $5 .5 mi llion, Mr .

Chairman, and I arrived at that by adding the $6 .5 million that the Minister mentioned in Special Warrants to 137 that 's shown in the Reconciliation Statement for the last year , which brings it up to $143 .5 million. I am then comparing that with a 149 that the committee is being asked to approve for the coming year, the di fference being $5 . 5 million. MR . ORCHARD: Rig ht . MR . WALDI NG : No further questions , Mr. Chairman . MR . CHAIRMAN: 2. (d) (1 )- -pas s; 2. (d) (2 )- -pas s; 2. (e) (1 )--p ass . The Member for The Pas. MR . McBRYDE: Mr .

Chairperson, I wonder if the Minister could tell us just very briefly what this

section does, first of all. MR . ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, this traffic

section is very legitimate. It 's involved in a number of the traffic-related activiti es in the de partment such - ll52 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 as signals at intersections, your electronic flashing lights at your median di­ vides, when you 've got construction ongoing you 've got your sequential arrow signs that divert traffic from one lane to the next , pavement markings , the kind of identification and signin g proj ects, that we see on the hig hways. MR . McBRYDE: Mr . Chairperson, through you to the Minister . Where do they count cars? Where do they count traffic? In this

section or somewhere else in the budget. MR . ORCHARD: No , traffic counts are done under Planning, which is Appro­ priation 3., the next gro up. MR . McBRYDE: Mr . Chairman, just in case I happen to miss

Section 3, I would like the Minister to - or maybe I could forewarn him that I'll be asking for traffic counts on the Easterville Road , Camperville Road and 283. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Ros e. MR . ADAM: Yes. I'm just wondering on this particular item, if there has been any studies made in regard to the intersection of No . 5 and PR 235 ; there have been a number of serious accidents , including some fatal accidents , on that particular section, and I'm just wondering if any studies have been made to im­ prove the problem there .

There is a filling station there and there is a number of posts with reflectors on and if there 1 s traffic coming from the west and anyone approaching that curve to turn to the west , it just almost blanks you out there , because of some of the signs that the business establishment - which is a legitimate business and we cer­ tainly don't want him to move away from there - we just want to know if there's any possibi lity or any studies made that we can improve there , because I know of at least two deaths that have taken place there, and maybe more .

There has been some other serious accidents where very serious injuries were involved. MR. ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, that intersection is Distric t Engineer and the RCMP to see what might be a some of the problems that are at that intersection . well, if I recall, from some of the correspondence. MR . ADAM: That motel is no longer there. MR . ORCHARD: That burned down, didn 't it? under some study with the good solution to solving There 1 s a motel there as MR. ADAM: It burned down , yes .

But I mean further east I think is where the accidents occur, is on that big curve there , with the business establishment, with the lights of the garage, the Shell sign there , and if you 're coming from the south , really - even the other day when I was driving there - a car coming from. the west to go east and maybe going to make a turn and turn at that filling sta­ tion, you 're just blanked out completely. So it 's a very serious accident-prone corner and I know that the Chairman brought up sane points last year in some of the problems he was having in his area, and I just thought I'd bring it up .

Also I'd like to ask if, I think under th is Appropriation here , the Highway Metrification, which nobody likes too well, but I guess that 's all complete now, is it , the Highway Metrification Program? MR . ORCHARD: By and large, all the road signs are converted to kilometers now. MR . CHAIRMAN: for Ste. Ros e. (e ) (1 )--pass ; (e) (2) --pass ; (e) --pass . (f ) (1 )-- The Member MR . ADAM: Yes. Could the Minister tell us how many district offices there are and where they are si tuated? - 1153 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 MR . ORCHARD: There are 12 District Offices . They are at Selkirk , Stein­ bach , Carman, Boisseva in, Brandon, Portage la Prairie , Minnedosa , Dauphin , Swan River , The Pas, Arborg and Winnipeg. MR . ADAM: Yes. I'm just wondering , looking at the Highway Program , where some of the ••• the Arborg District office, perhaps part of Dauphin. Is there one in that area, too , Lac du Bonnet or is that Steinbach? MR . ORCHARD: Selkirk is the District Office. MR . ADAM: Selkirk?

It seems the way the program has been set up this year that some of these District offices could just as well be closed down. Is there going to be any ••• ? I notice that there's an increase in staff of 12 .

Where are these people going to be situated since most of the major construction will be in southern Manitoba? --( Interj ection)- - I'm concerned about the people who work on a part-t ime basis at these particular District offices, are they going to be transferred to other areas where all the work is going to take place, or are they going to have to go on • • • Their unemployment usually runs out come April and May and they usually go back on the highway for the summer months, but in view of the fact that there's practically no hig hway construction in all those areas represented by New Democratic Party members, I'm just wo ndering what is going to happen to all these people who worked in those areas?

Are we going to close out the Dauphin District of fice, the Arborg and Selkirk , or are we going to reduce the staff? Where is all these 12 people going? MR . ORCHARD: Well, the Member for Ste. Rose has asked a number of questions. First of all, construction is not the only undertaking that our district office has, so that the level of activity in a di strict office is not solely related to the construction program in any particular area. There 's the ongoing maintenance that has to be undertaken, and patching and sig n changing, and all the number of routine duties.

Now it has been past practice, an accepted practice in the department, where the road program does, from year to year , vary from area to area. • • • Call them "surplus staff" , in the district offices , will be and are redeployed to areas where they may be needed to undertake construction projects. MR . ADAM : Ye s. Well, I had made a note here on my Est imate Book that it appeared that the dist rict offices, some of them, would be relegated to road maintenance offices rather than to be in charge of any construction .

But my main concern is, what is going to happen to all those part-t ime workers from those areas who are depending on this work all summer? Will they be called up to go to other areas and to long distances from home and disruption of inc ome for the summer months , because of the policies of this government , who sees fit to build out of 900 mi les of road , probably 700 and 800 miles in southern Manitoba , most ly? I'm excluding northern Manitoba here . I wasn't able to talk to the Member for Flin Flon on what 's going up in the north there . We 're really shocked , Mr.

Chairman, on wh at 's taking place and we 'll go into that when we get into the Construction and the Maintenance , I suppose. But could the Minister assure us that those people who have been on call for a number of years, 7, 8 years, 10 years in some cases I suppose and perhaps longer , being on call to the district offices every spring as part-t ime employees, will they not be called this year in those areas , like Dauphin and Arborg and Selkirk? MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr .

Chairman, certainly a great number of those people are going to have their routine job , because as I have said , the part-t ime employ­ ment in these offices is not solely hinged upon the construction program . There is a peaking of activit ies in the highways program in the summer months because that 's when we do a vast majority of our maintenance and our summer maintenance work is a high level of activity . Those who have undertaken construction work will have available to them the job opportunities where available. - 1154 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 MR . ADAM: In view of the fact that there is going to be a major decrease from some district offices and we see here a request for 12 extra SMYs . Where are these SMYs required if there is going to be a surplus of people in three or four dis trict offices? Surely you don 't need to have a district office in The Pas. We sure could close it out for this year or at least cut the staff down by 50 per­ cent. And we could cut the staff down in Dauphin by 50 percent and we can cut the staff entirely out in Arborg , or 50 percent. We 're just going to be dealing with maintenance.

Where do we need 12 extra people, where are they going to go , Mr. Chairman? MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the 12 extra people are taken on by district offices in accommodating the integration of the transportation services into the Department of Highways . And we have taken on 12 of the construction division and they have become part of the staff complement that was ne cessary when our depart­ ment workload increased because we took over the transportation services . MR . ADAM: Mr .

Chairman, I was looking at the figures here a while ago and it will be a little difficult to find the page, but I think we thoroughly looked into the transfer last year and it seems to me that there was 24 2 or 252 people that were transferred over because of this transfer. And I am just wondering where are they all now? Where are they all deployed? Is that in the construction area, the 796 that we see here further down? MR . ORCHARD: No , Mr . Chairman.

What we had in the construction division of transportation services was 44 SMYs from last year, from 197 9 -80, and of those 44, our dist rict offices have taken on 12 SMYs and at the same time, of those 44, as the Member for Ste. Rose is well aware, part of the construction function in Northern Affairs involved a water services program and as a result of that some 15 SMYs were transferred to the agricultural department to become part of their water divisi on ; and of the 44, 12 as I say , were absorbed within our dist rict offices, 15 went to agriculture and 17 SMYs were declared redundant and eliminated . MR .

ADAM: Well, it seems to me , Mr . Chairman, that there were 242 , Mr . Enns advised us last year. How many of these were laid off and how many were absorbed in other departments? MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, now I don't know whether the Member for Ste. Rose has arrived at his 240-so me-odd members.

We 've got 44 under the construction divi sion of northern transportation services which became part of the Department of Highwa ys ; and in that particular 44 category , or 44 SMYs, as I say , we were able to use 12 of them to accommodate within our district offices the construction function that was undertaken by the transportation services divisio n prior to incorpora tion, or prior to amalgamation; 15 who were involved directly with the water services went to agriculture and 17 , in that particular category , were declared redundant . So 17 jo b descriptions were no longer needed after the amalgamation. MR .

ADAM: There were more than 44 people involved in the transportation services, were there not? MR . ORCHARD: Well , that may be, Mr. Chairman, that may well be, but not in the construction division which we are referring to here where the 12 men come from that went into our district offi ces. MR . ADAM: I see . Is that the 12 we see here? MR. ORCHARD: Yes . MR . ADAM: That 's a transfer from transportation services, and I thought that was done last year . - 1155 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr . Chairman , it was done last year and we have now fully integrat ed them and put 12 of them into our district offices, 15 to agricul­ ture and 17 were SMYs that we do not need and were declared redundant. MR . CHAIRMAN: (f) (1 )-- pass; (f) (2 )-- pass ; (f} --pas s; (g ) (1 )-- pass. The Member for Fort Rouge. MRS . WESTBU RY : Thank you , Mr . Chairperson . I hope I'm going to be in the right category here . Is this where I can talk about gravel trucks on the highway? MR . ORCHARD: Mr .

Chairman, that would all depend on what the discussion on gravel trucks is going to be abo ut. MRS . WESTBURY : Well, there is quite a lot to be said . I'm concerned about the fact that they - and I suppose this is in part an Attorney-Gener al 's matter , I don't know, but it 's something that happens on the highway anyway . And the fact that they are not properly covering their trucks. MR . ORCHARD: Tarped , they 're not tarped. MRS . WESTBU RY: • they're not tarped.

Their method of driving and I don 't care whether we 're talking about private truck drivers or employees of rather large companies who send their trucks up on the hig hway , their methods of driving , and I have complained directly to companies, are really appalling . I think it obviously has to be a police matter as well. But one of the things I have noti ced is that in my frustration the licence plates seem to be on the back of the cab, and when they get the part with the gravel on it there's no licence plate at the back so that you can report them to the appropriate author ities.

And this is something that I found extremely frus­ trating when I've been up on the highway and I don't know who , if you or somebody else is able to look after that. I was just concerned with the general inspections . I was wo ndering if the weig h station, for instance, can't be brought in to help with the inspection of these vehicles. We get gravel and dust all over the cars as they pass and it 1 s really quite appalling, Mr . Chairperso n. MR . ORCHARD: Mr .

Chairman, let me assure the honourable member that in some regards I sympathize with her in some of her concerns , because I have met gravel trucks and got sprinkled .

It is a matter which is subject to police en­ forcement, and in terms of the specific traffic inspection function , that our people will undertake at the weig h scales which is primarily the only place they come in contact with these people, is to recommend to them that ind eed they tarp their loads or to assure . • • You see, if they are going through the weigh scales first off, they are apt to have a heaped load that is subject to falling over the sides because they are close to a scale and will be prosecuted or charged for overweigh ts.

And that primary contact with our traffic inspection people normally , and I say normally , because there are always exceptions, there's not that great a problem with gravel in a position to fall off or blow off on oncoming traffic . And I can appreciate the problem on the identification of the plates. It 's pretty hard to say to a police officer that that big red gravel truck dropped the gravel on you when you just met 25 of them on the road . I suppose there is no other way if you can't get the licence plate, is to take the fleet cab number off the truck to identify a specific truck unit .

It 's an ongoing problem and we certainly com­ plaints from time to time on that . MRS. WESTBU RY : The only time I'v e been able to get a decent identification on the licence plates is when they are tailgating me so close that I can get it in my mirror . And, you know, this isn't necessarily all that reassuring . MR . CHAIRMAN : (g ) (l)--p ass . The Member for Ste. Ros e. -- - 1156 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 MR . ADAM : There is an increase of approximately $100, OOO in the highway traffic inspection and also perhaps a $40 ,000 or $50 ,000 increase in Other Expen­ ditures. Well, there is 4 SMYs increase ; could the Minister give us an overview of what 1 s happening here? What these people are going to be used for? And why such a substantial increase in this traffic inspection? MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, the increase of the $9 5,0 00 so me odd dollars that the Member for Ste.

Rose refers to in Salaries is due to the 4 additional inspectors that we are bringing on staff this year as well as general salary increase in normal increments. We are in a, I guess , a rather unique situation in that we 're having to change our staffing patterns at both the West Hawk Scale and the Headingley Scale. Those Scales, Mr.

Chairman, are operated on a 24- hour basis and due to some employee concerns about single men staffing on the graveyard shift , that concern has been recognized and we 're now staffing the graveyard shift with two people, primarily for security purposes, I guess, it would be fair to say . And that's resulted in having to add 4 inspectors in order to now

schedule a shift on the basis of 2 at midnight instead of the 10-4 shift pattern that we had in place prior . MR . ADAM: The Minister mentions staff increases in this appropriation. I didn 't think that there were any increases in that because I believe the last time we met the Minister indicated to us that the agreement hadn 't been signed yet with Civi l Service, with MGE A. MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr. Chairman, I think ••. MR . ADAM : That came under. • • I'm not finished . MR. CHAIRMAN Well , the Minister is speaking though . MR . ORCHARD: Let the Member for Ste. Ros e. MR.

ADAM: The Minister in his reply to the Member for St . Vital , he mentioned that there were special warrants is sued last year in order to to pay those salary increases. And I am wondering what 's happening this year. MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, whenever we 're discussing an item, I think it 's always best that we talk apples and apples, and oranges and oranges, and not apples and oranges.

There is a ma jo r di fference between the MGEA negotiation on salaries for existing Civil Service employees, and the increase of $9 5, 000 where we are in fact adding 4 brand new staff men, or staff persons to the inspection staff. It 's an entirely unrelated situation that has no correlation whatsoever to the ongoing discussio ns, negotiati ons between MGEA and the Civil Service Com­ mi ssion .

The MGEA fit in this discussion because some of the inspection staff voiced the complaint that they did not think it was safe for them to be on the midnight shift by themselves, with which the MGEA concurred and required us to double-staff the graveyard shift , a totally unrelated si tuation. MR . ADAM : Yes, I understand that perfectly well. I'm not arguing that point , that it 's going to cost us $100 ,000 or $95,0 00 more for four staff, SMYs .

I was advised by the Minister awhile ago that when I questioned the difference of the figures on the left- hand column here , as far as Surveys and Titles, that was because of salary increases. Now , the $95, 000 doesn 't disturb me because we have more staff on, but the Minister indicated that part of this increase was for increase in Salaries. Is that not correct then? Perhaps the Minister would want to correct him self on that. MR . ORCHARD: Mr .

Chairman, in each and every appropriation that we 've dealt with under Salaries and Wage s, part of the increase has been for the general salary increase and in increments. That 1 s been the case in every single Salary and Wage appropriation we 've had to date. We budget a certain amount for general salary increase, but we do not budget sufficient to cover the total salary in­ crease. That 's where the catch-up comes in. - ll57 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 MR . ADAM: Is there anything else that the Minister could tell us on High­ way Traffic Inspection? MR . ORCHARD: No , Mr. Chairman, basically the ongoing duties of our Highway Traffic Inspection Division are to assure that franchises, equipment licences, dimensions , weights are all adhered to according to the regulations that we 've got in place and to make effort to protect the integrity of our hi ghway system by proper and legal use of the hig hway system bY the driving public . MR . CHAIRMAN: (g ) (1)- -pass ; (g) (2 )--p ass .

Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $10 ,4 35,5 00 for Highways and Transportation, Management Services and Engineering--p ass. 3. (a ) - the Member for Emerson . MR . DRIEDGER : Thank you , Mr . Chairperson . I have a few concerns about Planning and Design . When your departmental people work in terms of PTHs and PTRs in terms of taking up rig ht-of-w ay , is there a standard formula that is being used throughout the highways? MR . ORCHARD: If I understand the Member for Emers on 's questi on , is there a standard wi dth of right-o f-way that is acquired for road reconstruction?

MR . DRIEDGE R : That 's right . MR . ORCHARD: By and large, yes , although it can vary for our heavier roads, the ones that are going to be 80 ,000 to 110,0 00 pound, gross vehicle weight s, we will generally acquire a 200-f oot rig ht-o f-w ay . On some of the prov­ incial roads where the traffic is lighter and not, say , as numerous as the 1,0 00- 2 ,000 vehicle per day average that we have on our PTHs , we can go for some­ what less of a right-o f-way take . MR .

DRIEDGER : The reason for raising this question was that I listened to the former Minister of Highways this afternoon explaining the need for long-term planning and the situation in Manitoba , where we have one major city where over half the population lives in Winnipeg , I can foresee that on the main arteries leading into Winnipeg where they should be definitely long-range planning in terms of poss ible four-lani ng, et c. , etc.

When we talk of forgotten constituencies, something like Emerson , where we have lesser traffic coming through , I wondered whether the same rules sho uld apply in a si tuation like that, where at a time when we ' re concerned under land use policies, about use of agricul tural or losing agricultural land, whether we should apply the same kind of criteria in situations like that as we do closer to the city . MR .

ORCHARD: Well , we can get into an interesting discussion here , and I don 't disagree in general terms with what the Member for Emerson is saying that , for instance, and let's use a corridor which is familiar to all of us around th is table, the Winnipeg to Selkirk corridor , where we have had substantial development pressure , substantial strip development along the highways .

Definitely the cir­ cumstances of control, sho uld we be able to go back 25 years and impose them, wou ld be much more stringent in that area where there is hig h traffic count and high development pressure than quite possibly it would be for an area such as yours and, let's say , down in the Piney area. Our concern sho uldn't have to be nearly as much as it is in that Selkirk area.

However , the main purpose of particularly our · PTHs is to offer , not only local traffic acc ess to a decent hig hway , to a good hi ghway , but generally they provide through corridors and in accommodating through traffic the main objective is to get them from point "A " to 118" as quickly and as hazard-f ree as possible . That's where we can say that the same sort of rules may well apply , even in Piney , in terms of putting a subdivision with access on to PTH . MR .

DRIEDGE R : I can well appreciate the concern but normally , when we get closer to the larger centres, we have a much heavier traffic load type of thing and I'm wondering whether it would be • • • You know, just a suggestion that your - 1158 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 department has all the traffic counts available, in terms of traffic moving in and ou t on the various roads , whether a different set of standards could be used on the more extreme rural areas than we do closer to Winnipeg . MR . ORCHARD: I think there is a certain degree of latitude in that right now to accommodate some additional access to , particularly PRs , not necessarily PTHs , particularly the main thoroughfare PTHs , but that 's certainly a subject that I haven 't got a closed mind on and I'm open to sugge stions and discussion on it . MR .

DRIEDGER : I just wanted to make the point that possibly sometimes , maybe, your departmental people get a little over-zealo us in terms of the right­ -of -way that they acquire and tie up , which in some areas possibly isn't quite warranted. Thank you . MR . CHAIRMAN: 3. (a ) - the Member for Inkster . MR . GRE EN: Mr . Chairman, I have a less important point , I think, but, nevertheless, it 's one that I'd like to raise and that has to do with signs and one particular sign in particular.

The Member for Lac du Bonnet would be also , perhaps , familiar and make sure that I'm not making a mistake but I've noticed it on several occasions and I still think I'm right . When you are coming 59 South to Winnipeg and you hit the Perimeter Highway , the sign says Brandon to go on to the Perimeter , and Winnipeg straight down 59 . I am thinking , Mr.

Chairman, in the context of touris t who doesn't know Winnipeg, as a stranger , because that 's the way I frequently find myself driving in other places, if I was driving on the highway coming into Winnipeg, I would not know that I could get to Winnipeg by taking the Perimeter and going down No . 9. I would drive , because that says Brandon and when you go straight , it 's Winnipeg . The Member for River Heights is nodding , so maybe he has seen that as well.

Now, I wou ld assume , and I'm not saying that it 's a great number of people but a large major ity of people driving down 59 would know that they could go the Peri­ meter and come in through North Winnipeg, but I'm talking about the person who is not familiar with Manitoba, who may come down Highway No . 15 or may come down Highway No . 4, having taken the sort of scenic route, rather than No . 1 east from the Falcon Lake area.

If he goes up No . 4 or if he goes up No . 44, if he goe s down No. 15, then he will - excuse me, he won 't hit it by 15, he has to be on 44, excuse me - that, and maybe I'm being somewhat chauvinistic , I don 't know , but I think that the way in which you see Winnipeg best is coming through the north end of Winnipeg, that you come down, you see the large Ukrainian Church on Redwood and Main, which stands out as a beacon. You drive through the north end, which is a wonderful place, as we all know. You see the older downtown area and then the Richardson Building as you approach Portage and Main.

You don 't get that kind of a view going down 59 , which brings you into St . Marys Road ; not St . Marys Road , Marion, you come in on Marion. You go straig ht down 59 , you have to come in through St. Boniface, that 's what I'm saying . --( Interjection)-- I'm sorry , all right , I don't know the street, al though I do it all the time myself.

I believe that there should be a sign there saying , "Winni­ peg via North Main" , or "via Main Street", or "via Highway 9", so that the driver who 's coming in has an option of either going straig ht or making that turn and hitting Highway 9 and taking the cloverleaf into Winnipeg. And I'm not an expert on why they sig n things in that way ; I rather suspect that the people who make the si gns hope to keep traffic off that route , so as to relieve what may be a heavy traffic load going through to Main Street.

But it wouldn • t largely interfere with the amount of traffic that comes in because you 're just dealing with people who don 't know the area . A person who knows will pick whatever route he wants , in any event. A person who doesn't know, they follow the signs. He drives and is guided entirely by the signs and you cannot tell, coming 59 towards Winnipeg, that you can get to Winnipeg by taking the Perimeter and going down No . 9. Now, is there a reason for it that has es­ caped me?

I believe I may raised this in the House several years ago and nothing was changed, so is there a reason that has escaped me as to why it must be the way it is? - 1159 -

Tuesday , 18 March 1980 MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr. Chairman , I certainly appreciate the member's observation s. It 's the first time I've heard him mention this. MR . GREEN: No , you weren't here . MR . ORCHARD: No , that 's the first time I heard him mention that. MR. GREEN: Is it rig ht MR . ORCHARD: The first observation I might have , Mr.

Chairman, if this was to the benefit of the tourist public, who are unfamiliar with Winnipeg and the scenic route that the Member for Inkster has indicated in coming into downtown Winnipeg, woul d "Winnipeg vi a North Main" mean anything to those people unless they knew that North Main was the scenic route type of thing? MR . GRE EN: They would at least know that there are two ways . The way it is now, you think if you turn that sign you go to Brandon, period . I mean that 's the way to Brandon, not the way to Winnipeg ;

whereas it is a way to Winnipeg , and a person coming in at least knows that I can turn here or I can go straig ht . I can take my choice. Some traffic would then take the North Winnipeg route. Now, how you indicate that this is a - and I can't even say it 's a more scenic route ; I don •t want to run down the other route - but at least it ' s an option al route and some North Winnipeg • • First of all, I think it 's a better view of the city , myself; I think it 's the best view coming in from that area.

Secondly, it wo uld , I suppose , do something for some of the enterpreneurs in that area, some of the drive-ins or restaurants, etc. , would get some of the traffic that is just arriv­ ing in Winnipeg. As the way it is now, that escapes them completely. And I hadn 't been approached by anybody to say that I'm losing business . I'm not sug­ gesting it from that point of view. I'm suggestin g it from the point of view of indicating to people that there is another way of getting into Winnipeg from High­ way 59. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas. MR . McBRYDE: Well, Mr .

Chairperso n, the Minister indicated this is the

section that does traffic counts and I know that the department guards those traf­ fic counts as if they were the formula for the Atom bomb or something . MR . ORCHARD: Zealously. MR . McBRYDE: But, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if they would loosen up their security enough to give me some information on a couple of roads in my area that I mentioned earlier . MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr . Chairman, we wou ld want to have of course the utmost assurance from the Member for The Pas they have no ulterior motive in requesting this traffic count information. MR . McBRYDE: Mr .

Chairperson , one of the uses that the department gets upset about is if you use these traffic counts and say , well, there's more traffic on this road than that one , therefore you should upgrade this road first before you upgrade the other one . And, Mr . Chairman, that 's precisely one of the reasons that I want the traffic count. MR . ORCHARD: Are there any particular roads that the Member for The Pas would like traffic counts on? MR . McBRYDE: As I mentioned earlier , Mr .

Chairperson, the Easterville Road or the Easterville shortcut to Winnipeg joi ns No. 10 and No . 6, and the comparison to that would be further down No. 10; that is if there's a traffic count below the Eastervi lle cut off , between there and Swan River or between there even and Over­ flowing River , if they have that information. - 1160 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, we have a traffic count on 327 just west of the junction with No . 6 Highway . Would that be of value? MR . McBRYDE : Ye s, Mr. Chairman, that wou ld be of value. That would give the traffic both going to The Pas and going to Eastervi lle. MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman , we haven't got them here but if the Member for The Pas would like to give me a list , we can make those available. MR . McBRYDE : Mr . Chairperso n, for it to have some accuracy you would need a couple of traffic counts on that road, if they have them.

I' 11 take whatever they have in terms of information . If they have one where the Minister mentioned, that is fine, and if they have one further on that wouldn 't count the Easterville traffic that 's travelling between Grand Rapids and Easterville or Winnipeg and Easterville but would grab the The Pas-Easterville traffic, that is further west o f the Easterville turnoff. MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, when we get on what is classically known as the Easterville road , that portion that 's beyond the surface

section that goes up to Easterville itself, we don't maintain traffic counts on that stretch of road , the by and large undeveloped

section of road . We don 't have traffic counts on that. MR . McBRYDE: I'm sorry , Mr . Chairman, the Minister lost me when he says "undeveloped" because hopefully it 's going to be even more developed than it is but it 's a main road at this particular point in time , as the traffic count will show. MR . ORCHARD: Rig ht . But to explain my comment on "undeveloped", the mem­ ber , I think on Friday, indicated that that road should have been in this year 's program and was not, and that 's what I meant by the unreconstructed portion of the Easterville road , shall we say . MR . McBRYDE: Mr .

Chairperson , one other purpose of these traffic counts is some comparison or to understand where the traffic is moving . So then besides the Easterville road traffic count , then a traffic count on No. 10 south of the East erville Road ; that will be between the turnoff to Easterville and Overflowing River or anywhere between Swan River and that turnoff would do . The other traffic count, Mr . Chairperson, that I would like is Highway No . 610 , the ManFor access road and the second ManFor access road which is unnumbered, which is known as the Umpervi lle Road. MR . ORCHARD: Excuse me , Mr . Chairman.

The member wants the traffic count on the ManFor access road . MR . McBRYDE: On the ManFor access road , No. 610 , Mr . Chairperson . And I would also like MR . ORCHARD: Are those one and the same , though? MR . McBRYDE : Yes, 610, that 's one ManFor access road . There's a second ManFor access road that is known as the Umperville Road and that cuts a number of mi les off a person going from The Pas to ManFor .

I'm informed by the workers at ManFor that the Umperville Road in fact has as much traffic on it or more traffic on it than the ManFor access road because it 's a shortcut for the workers who work at ManFor . Mr . Chairperson, I believe that road of course is also used by the residents of Umpervi lle and passes through part of The Pas Reserve . I know that there's been a traffic count on that particular road so I wondered if I could get the figures from that particular count . MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, if we do have that Umperville Road count, yes , we 'll make that available. - 1161 -

Tuesday , 18 March 1980 MR . McBRYDE: Mr . Chairperson, the reason I would like that especially is for a comparison because the Minister is planning on spending some dollars this year on 610, the main ManFor access road , a nd I've been urg ing the Minister , the government, even the previous government, Mr . Chairperson, to do some work on the Umperville ManFor access road because that road is , I understand from the wor kers , more used and these figures will give me that informatio n, whether or not that Umperville Road is used more than the main ManFor access road and paved one . The other one , Mr .

Chairperson , is the traffic count on Highway No . 28 3, whi ch is the other one that the Minister should be proceeding with work on. It 's paved on the Saskatchewan side. It 's paved part- way on the Manitoba side, but there's a

section that 's not paved and that 's been in the planning , as I said earlier , for four years or five years. So if we 'd get some count from that particular road to see if that would back up my contention that people from Flin Flon and Thompson use that road as well, we 're going into Midland, southern Saskatchewan . So , Mr . Chairperson , those are the key ones . But I'm assuming that as situa­ tions come up during the year that the Minister wou ld also be will ing to make that information and other counts available to myself, and other members, from our side of the House.

I wonder if he could just confirm that. MR . ORCHARD: Well, we will m1iJ.ke the traffic counts that the member 1 s requested , available. There may be a couple of them that we just don 't have , and if we don't have them, well, we can't make them available. MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr . Chairperson, my other question on this

section is a more general one, a nd that is: How do the decisio ns get made in terms of what is to be designed and what is to be planned? MR . ORCHARD: Well, Mr . Chairman, there are a number of factors enter into what goes into the planning and design stage , safety factors as we 've mentioned earlier on . There is the general condition of the road surface. The traffic count is a consideratio n. The util ity of the road, i. e. is it a dead-end road servicing, let's say, a dead-end group of communities? Is it part and parcel of a major thoroughfare or a major traffic corridor?

There are a number of factors fit into the equation of what road it 's going to survey and design . MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr . Chairperson. The Planning and Design

section of the department would be a Winnipeg or a centralized function. Is that correct? MR . ORCHARD: No , not completely . This particular appropriation deals with our Planning and Design divisi on, which is located in Winnipeg. But each of our dist rict offices has a Planning and Design function inherent in the district offi ce, as well. But this is the central co-ordinatin g gr oup . MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr . Chairperso n.

I wonder if each regional office, then, prepares its prio rities in terms of things that should be planned and designed and forwards them to the Assistant Deputy Minister, or the Deputy Min­ ister. How does it work? MR . ORCHARD: Each district has a, I suppose you would say , a set of prior­ ities that they have for the ir particular dist rict, and they are fed in to the system by a Planning and Design in Winnipeg, for an eventual decision on a total road progra m. MR . McBRYDE: Mr . Chairperson , does this

section then - and I'� not sure what the designation of the person in charge of this particular

section would be called , whether it 's an ADM or a director, or whatever - are dec isions made there then or does it go straight to the Minister 's office, or how does it work? MR . ORCHARD: Well , as the Member for The Pas can well appreciate, the number of requests that we receive from the di strict offices plus the number of - 1162 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 provincial requests , which ori ginate in the Planning and Design directly in Winni­ peg, which they are the overall planning authority for the total province to get - as you can well appreciate every district office has parochial interests - and the planning function has to correlate between a balance of parochial interests and the overall provincial need in a given area.

And each district office, coupled with the Planning and Design in Winnipeg , will have a number of projects which are going to be put before the department any given year for any given value of construction voting, and I think it 's fair to say that there's rough ly three times the requests in terms of work requests, to the amount of funding that is projected to be available to undertake that con­ struction , at least three tim es . So a considerable filtering out has to be done to priorize a road program on any particular year . MR . McBRYDE: Mr .

Chairman, the planning and designing stage would be like one stage of a series of stages have to be gone through before we get to drive on a new high way , and I'm wondering whether the decision to do planning and design is basically a decisi on to construct, or is there a number of plans and desig ns done before any decision is made, that it will go beyond that stage? MR . ORCHARD: Mr .

Chairman, if I understand the Member for The Pas' ques­ tion, the planning and design stage itself does not necessarily mean that next year you ' re going to go into construction , because maybe when you undertake your planning and desig n , you will run into some unique problems that take longer to resolve . But planning and design is the initial step to the upgrading of any road . No road goes directly into a construction type of thing . You have to have your sur­ vey and design done at some point in time.

If you need it rig ht away , that has to be done at some point in time , before you get to your construction program. MR . McBRYDE: I'd ask the Minister then, Mr . Chairperson , if there's ever, or very often a no-go decision, i.e. the design work is done, the planning work is done and then that road is never constructed. MR .

ORCHARD: It might even be fair to say that that decision is probably made more often than the decision to construct, because as I've said , on any given year the plans and designs for roads, there might be three times as many roads in the program ready to be constructed as can be undertaken in a given year because of the limitations of the budget. So naturally I think there's more times a road is turned down for construction than there are times when a road is approved for construction . MR . McBRYDE: Mr .

Chairperson, how long would it take then for the Highways Program that the Minister presented us with last week? What is the lead time required? When would the planning and design work for these particular bits of work have been done? MR . ORCHARD: Well, that would vary quite a little bit . Some of the plan­ ning and design may well have done four and five and six years ago .

Probably the mi nimum time it could have been done for actual construction, which is what I think the Member for The Pas is referring to, would be probably two years ago because you have to have your planning and design and rig ht of way , which is generally a two-year step . MR . McBRYDE: Mr .

Chairman, I guess I was pursuing this line of questioning because I am wond ering if I have been unfair to the Minister giving him the full responsibility for the present program and the fact that it seems to be, espe­ cially in this other area and in certain constituencies , giving him full blame or credit for the fact that there seems to be a lot more work being done in Conserva­ tive constituencies than NDP constituences, if in fact the planning has been done and had to be done one or two years ago in order to get the program ready to go .

So maybe I've been unfair to the Minister giving him the full responsibility and blame for what I see is the existing program when some of that should go to the - 1163 -

Tuesday, 18 M arch 1980 previous Minister , who is not here , and whom I was givin g some credit for for being more fair in terms of the allocation of hi ghway expenditures. But, Mr. Chairman , it wou ld appear then from the Minister 's comments though that this

section does planning and design , also would get considerable di rection from the Minister 's office in terms of what priori ties are and where to proceed with the design work because of the time consuming and expensive work to prepare for new road building and upgrading or paving of a gravel road , etc. I am assuming then, that at this particular stage , the planning and design stage, that the Minister wou ld have a pretty direct input and I wonder if the Min­ ister could c omment on that. MR .

ORCHARD: Well , you know, the plannin g and design , I certainly , as Minist er, as all Ministers , not only in this administration but in previous ad­ ministrations , have had a very direct input as to where the planning and desig n on roads and the road program goes to in the province. And that has always been the case , Mr. Chairman.

The planning and design in terms of my particular interests as the current Minister, is to try and acc ommodate some of the road upgrading that needs to be undertaken in this province because of rail line abandonment as one immediate concern that we have in the province, and naturally we had diverted some of the pla nning function to address that very urgent and very pressing problem. MR . McBRYDE: I don't think I have any other questions on this subject. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MR. FILMON: Mr .

Chairman, just in response to the matter that was raised by the Member for Inkster earlier , having gone before the Highway Traffic Board on a number of occasions on behalf of the city and had discussion regard ing the si gnage with the transportation and traffic planners of the Highways Branch , I know that some of their considerations are, that as people are driving on the highway and you have sign s up, that it 's well to keep the verbiage on the signs to an absolute minimum because they 're driving at 90 or 100 kilometres an hour and it becomes confusing if you give them several optio ns .

I sugge st that if you were looking at a sign such as he is suggesting , say Brandon , you could say - or Winni­ peg via north Main, or Winnipeg via McPhillips , then you start to offer them many options and it becomes rather confusing and tends to actually be a danger factor . I think you would find that as you were approaching there, earlier on would have a si gn that had the Maple Leaf emblem and a No . 1 that said West Brandon via Peri­ meter or via 101, which is the numerical designatio n.

That would be maybe a mile or 2 kilometres before you hit the sig n that actually says Brandon West , so they would define it ahead . And I think they have to assume that people who are ap­ proaching the city are approaching it with a map like this, so that if they are coming to the Perimeter they know ahead of time that they can go di rectly through St . Boniface into Winnipeg, or if they want to take their options and they know they are coming in, the map tells them they can go on to one of the other desig­ nations such as north Main or McPhi llips .

That, I think , are some of the considerations that the traffic engineers have . And they like to keep the information on their sig ns to a minimum. I know we tried to convince them on behalf of the city to put some additional information on signs at the Perimeter and it ended up taking us three or four meetings to con­ vince them of this. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Inkster . MR . GREE N: Mr . Chairman , I thank the Member for River Heights for at least something that has the rationale of an explanation. Having been experienced in driving , and doing a lot of it, it doesn 't work that way .

You don 't • • • espe­ cially when you are comi ng to a place like Winnipeg, which is not a tremendous metropoli s, it 's 550 , OOO people , you follow the signs and get to Winnipeg . And the fact is, if you are coming in on 59 , you miss the north Main route. It 's not a terrible problem which should cause anybody to lose any sleep , but I would ask the department to look at it and see whether , when you 're coming south on 59 , you - 116 4 -

Tuesday , 18 March 1980 can't do something more sensible, or more informative , about advis ing that there are other ways into Winnipeg . Speaking of signs , I too was a municipal councillor back in the days of the Metropolitan Corporation of Greater Winnipeg, which was foisted on the citizens unilaterally by the provincial gover nment. I like to use those terms now, Mr . Chairman, with respect to municipal governments, so I will revert to them. And I can remember an argument , out of which , to this day , I can not make sense out of .

The idea of having traffic routes through Winnipeg , which could be iden­ tified , was an excellent idea. If one wanted to go from the northern part of the city to Charleswood , and one had a map and could follow the major routes , there'd be no problem. But they insis ted on numbering these routes like 90, 80, 70, and I said , "Why do they have to be numbered that way? Isn 't it possible that somebody will look at that 90 and say 90 kilometres?" At that time it was 9 0 miles, or 80 miles.

And they had like encyclopedic explanations as to why it had to be that way , none of them which made sense, as far as I am concerned. And now we have all of these sig ns in Winnipeg , which are route sig ns, and a person not knowing that they are route si gns - and many Winnipeggers don 't know route signs, look at them and they see a figure which could be a speed limit . Now , it 's been my impression that highway signs avoid that.

I mean, No . 9, everybody knows yo u're not going 9 miles an hour ; No . 44, No . 15, No . 610, etc • • But in Winnipeg the route signs are go, 80, I can't think of all of them, but they are signs which --( Interjection )-- there are 50 and 60, well that's jus t awful. If they're that bad, then it 's even wo rse . And I know this is not your juris­ diction bu t --( Interjection)- - well, 41 I don't think a person would mistake as a speed sign ; 50 , yes, but not 41 ; 75 is a tough sign . 75 is a sign , because I think that Highway 75 extends and extends .

In other word s, if you started chang­ ing that number, it extends down rig ht through the middle of the United States, No. 75. 83, well, but 83 is not a speed sig n. I don 't think anybody wou ld recognize 83 as a speed si gn. 75 is a problem. --( Interj ection)- - They've changed whi ch? Well, if they 've changed some of the route signs, then I would hope that they would change the others so that they cannot be mistaken. MR . CHAIRM AN: 3. (a)- -p ass. The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW : I tried , Mr . Chairman , to follow up on the Member for Inkster on the point of the sig ns .

The member makes a very good poi nt , Mr . Chairman. For the tourist or the person who is not fully familiar with the road system, who hasn 't studied the map idn advance, it is a problem. They do get mislead . I know that I've had a number of MLAs who couldn't find my particular residence, because when they get down to No . 44 Highway , it says Selkirk that-a way , and so you take the Cloverleaf. You take a diffferent route altogether ; it doesn 't say Selkirk further down north , you see . So I suppose it 's something the department should take a look at .

If you look at Lac du Bonnet, there is a sign just before you get to Sedden' s Corner, and it 's Lac du Bonnet straight ahead , but it should be Lac du Bonnet through Milner Ridge , but it doesn 't say that , you know. So people head straight down to No . 11 and 44, which is quite a piece further . You could go a short cut, ten miles less , through Milner Ridge and you come right into town . So there are a number of these anomalies, and I don 't want to be terribly critical. I think the Member for Inkster made the point , and I would hope the sign department takes note of it and perhaps comes up with some thing .

I ju st wanted to support the position that the Member for Ink ster. MR . GRE EN: Thank you for your support . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas. MR . McBRYDE : Mr . Chairman, while we 're on these large matters of urgent public concern , there is some validity in that. I am still personally mad at the City of Saskatoo n, because three times trying to just go through it , I got lost because it 's not posted well enough to tell you how to get through the place; you have to stop there. - 1165 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 And in light of the signs that the Minister mentioned, I'l l mention another one that the Minister might want to take a look at while he 's looking in that particu­ lar area . And that is, when I first came to Winnipeg, I guess probably the first or second session I was in , I wanted to go to this place called Birds Hill Park , and so I just got in the car and drove out 59 , that would be the way to get to Birds Hill Park .

And there was a sign that said Birds Hill, and it pointed off, so I went up there and found this nice little community but I couldn't find the park there anywhere at all. Along with the sig n that says Birds Hill, whi ch is the small community there, there should be another sign that says the park is straight ahead . A ma jo r point for you to consider. MR . ORCHARD: Rig ht . MR . CHAIRMAN: 3. (a)- -pass ; 3. (b)- -pass . The Member for Inkster . MR . GRE EN: Mr . Chairman, is it proper on this item to dis cuss a great separation? Mr.

Chairman, I believe that , agai n, this is with in the confines of the City of Winnipeg , but it is part of the provincial program I believe, in co-operation with the city that they discuss these major thoroughfare s, and par­ ticularly such a thing as a great separatio n. Now we 've had the experience, Mr. Chairman , in north Winnipeg, of having it acknowledged without a shadow of a doubt that there is need for an additional route crossing the CPR tracks .

I believe that when I was born, which is fifty years ago , there was the Main Street Subway , the Salter Bridge might not have been built, it was built in the mid- Thirt ies, the Arlington Bridge , and the McPhillips Subway . That 's what you have now. That 's 30 , 45 years of progr ess . And in the meantime, the population of that area has, oh , I would think it would be four times at least. I mean, you 've had all of West Kildo nan, you 've had Tyndall Park.

And for years , north Winnipeg has been put off on the basis that they were going to get heaven, that they shouldn 't settle for a different route, because they were going to get - the Messiah was coming . The tracks separating central Winnipeg from north Winnipeg were going to removed and therefore why build another route if it 's not going to be necessary? And, I suppose , when you hear that for the first time, it sounds plausible. But, in the meantime , the linking of central Winnipeg to north Winnipeg has been avoided year, after year , after year on the basis that there may be a rail relocation .

And if anybody says , "Are you in favour of rail relocation? ", it 's like saying , "Are you in favour of motherho od?" Yes, I am in favour of rail relocation. I don 't di spute rail relocation. But I do say that one should not avoid making the artery on the basis that rail relocation may never come , and if it does come , we will have an addition al artery . It 's possi ble to build an over­ pass which would travel at a separated level from the ground , even though it didn't cross rails , and that is done in many cities.

I mean, there are many thoroughfares which cross over land where there are no railways underneath . So, if Winnipeg is to have rail line relocatio n, that 's all very well and go od. But, in the meantime , there should be something done to deal with this problem. And it 's acknowledged , nobody di sputes it, nobody says that you don 't need another route. I am , Mr .

Chairman, going to suggest that , at the very least - and I •m not even sugge sting this , that it should be the least - that there should be another grade separation going into north Winnipeg, and I suppose the obvious place is Keewatin , where there is a completely new area the re, the Tyndall Park area, and north of Tyndall Park , the Inkster Industrial Park , is held up and it 's more than five minutes . Some , I think Mr . Doern , the Member for Elmwood , used to talk about that there's a law that you can't block the intersection for more than five minutes .

Now , the Nairn overpass came, after much agitation on that point . Well, there should be, in addition to Sher brook and McGregor , in addition to rail line relocation , none of which we 've go t, but in addition to these other thin gs that we don't have , there should be a grade separation on Keewatin so that the traffic does not have to wait to go to those streets . And I am jus t wondering whether there have been any discussions with the city of Winnipeg with regard to that type of a facility for north Winnipeg . MR . CHAIRMAN: 3. (a)- -pass ; 3. (b) . - ll66 -

Tuesday , 18 March 1980 MR . GRE EN: Mr . Chairman, can I have an answer to the question, whether the city of Winnipeg has made any application to the provincial government for that type of facility , for grade separation at Keewatin? MR . ORCHARD: To put it into a country boy's terminology , you 're talking about the McGregor overpass? MR . GREEN: Oh , no, this is in addition to the other things that we don't have. We should have another thing that we don 't get, and that is that there should be a grade separation planned for on Keewatin, which we have to wait until MR . ORCHARD: Mr .

Chairman , I'm advised that we haven't had any discussions with the city of Winnipeg on the Keewatin one . MR. GREEN: There has been no discussion? What you 're telling me is that the city of Winnipeg has never approached the provincial government for a grade separation at Keewatin. MR . FILMON: It 's in the five-year capital plan and it has been approved both by the city and the province. MR . GREE N: It 's been approved both by the city and the province? MR . FILMON : Rig ht . MR. GREE N: I'm getting that from the Member for River Heights. MR .

FILMON : As former chairman of Works and Operations, that 's factual. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Minister . MR . ORCHARD: But , Mr . Chairman, if I might - under the block funding that we have undertaken with the City of Winnipeg - that may well be part and parcel of their five-year capital budget for upgrading , but it 's nothing that the dollars aren't specifically earmarked by the provincial government to go into a specific project , a block of dollars are set aside . MR . GREEN: I gather that the City of Winnipeg has indicated that this is in their five- year plan.

What is the plan - the five- year start from, the year 2000? MR . FILMON: 1979 to 1984. MR . GREE N: 1979 to 1984 ; so we 're even ta lking within four years , if the city of Winnipeg proceeds as planned, there will be a grade separation on Keewa­ tin. Thank you. MR . CHAIRMAN: 3. (a)- -pass ; 3. (b)- -pass . Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,4 11 ,000 Planning and Desi gn--pass . Committee rise. Resolved that there be granted to for Highways and Transportatio n, SUPPLY - LABOUR AND MANPOWER MR . CHAIRMAN, Mr . Abe Kovnats (R adisson) : This comniittee will come to order.

I wou ld direct the honourable members to page 70 of the Main Estimates , Department of Labour and Manpower. We are on Reso lution No . 91 , Item 3. (e) (4) , Canada-Man itoba Northlands Agreement--p ass . The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. - ll67 -

Tuesday , 18 March 1980 MR . SAMUEL USKIW: Mr . Chairman, I was just going to address the member behind me . What item are we on, Mr . Chairman? MR . CHAIRMAN: The one I just stated, I th ink. Item 4; no , I'm sorry , it 's item (5) (e) Subsection (4) , Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreement. MR . USKIW : Ye s, there's no figure opposite that. MR . CHAIRMAN: I've run into that prob lem before . It 's listed , so it is under discussion. MR . USKIW : I see . I wonder if the Minister would explain to us what that particular item is for . HON. KEN MacMASTER : It was all gone through before the break, Mr.

Chair­ man, but I can certainly go through it . I t's the northern travel program to ass ist peo ple in the northern communities, to help them have the opportunity to travel to other parts of the province of Manitoba. Last year , there were approxi­ mately 1,8 00 children that took advantage of that particular program , of which many toured this particular building . MR . CHAIRMAN: I'll just add to it . It is Sub (

a) Northlands Youth Travel, and (

b) Less: Recoverable fron Northern Affairs, and there is money allocated to those departments. The Honourable Member for Churchi ll. MR . JAY COWAN: Yes, thank you , Mr. Chairperson . Well, the Minister indi­ cated how many people took advantage of that program last year . Could he indicate how many people tood advantage of that program in 1977 , 197 8 and 1979 , and who is anticipated to take advantage of it in 1980? We 're talking about numbers of students now. MR .

MacMASTER : In the previous year there were 1,2 00 ; last year there were 1,861; and we project about the same number next year , approximately 1,8 00 again . MR . COWAN: Mr . Chairperson, I just want to check and make certain I am on the right item here . I have a number of press releases from the Information News Services discussing the Northlands Travel Plan. Would that be the particular program under discussion now?

And it says that on February 2, 1979, it says that the Minister said that he expected that 2,2 00 students will be able to participate in an educational travel experience through the assis tance of this program . Last year , he said , just over 2,0 00 students, grades 3 to 12 took part , so in 197 8 we would have 2, OOO students and then it would be expected I guess in 1979 to be 2,2 00 . And then in 1980 , we see the same news release, and we don 't have the specific ••• excuse me , we do have the specific numbers.

It says, "D uring the 197 8-79 program year , assista nce was provided for 45 travel grou ps , including 40 schools, and a total of 1, 207 students ." So there seems to be a wide discrepancy here on the actu al students participating from year to year, and also on the anti­ cipated rate of students participating and the actual numbers of students partici­ pating . Perhaps the Minister could take the opportunity to explain why it is that dis crepancy seems to follow from year to year . MR . MacMASTER : I can't explain it entirely .

I know that in the year 1978-79 there was approximately 80 percent of those that were eligible to apply , and so applied , and that equalled 1,2 07 . I know that last year, there was 91.4 percent of those eligible to apply that applied, and that equalled 1,861. So, the 8 or 9 percent that did not show a desire to participate in the prog ram would have brought it up over 2,0 00. We co uld proj ect quite easily another 2,0 00 next year . I am saying with the excellent increase in participation , there is a good chance that next year it might be 2,0 00 . MR . COWAN: Thank you, Mr . Chairperson .

Well, in the press release on February 2, 1979 , it said that the Minister said last year , he said just over - ll68 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 2,0 00 students, Grades 3 to 12 , took

part in this program . Is that a correct figure then, that just over 2, 000 students took

part in the program in 1977 - it wou ld be the 1977- 78 year? MR . MacMASTER : I haven 't got that number for 1977- 78. MR . COWAN: Well, that 's from his own press release, Mr . Chairman. I'm not certain as to whether I'm interpreting the data correctly or not. But the point that I would like to make is that the funds for this have stayed constant , or have stayed relatively constant , yet we know the cost of travelling . Anyone who trav­ els to and from the north knows the cost of travelling has increased drastically over the last number of years .

So , if that is the case, and if the funds have stayed constant , what we 've actually seen is a decrease in the service under this particular program. And it is a program that 's of some value to - well, it 's of great value - to the students in the north , because it gives them an opportunity to come down to visit this building, which is of some si gni ficance to some , but also to go into other parts of the city to acquaint themselves with the city.

So , we can only hope that the level of the fund ing for that program keeps up with the level of inflation so that at least, at the very least, the same number of students will be able to participate in that program in the future. It 's not a majo r point , but I think it is a pertinent point that one has to make , that infla­ tion is eating away at a number of the programs , and that they are suffering service- wise because of that .

So , having made that point , I wo uld just encourage the Minister to build in increments in this program so that the inflationary rate does not soon dissip ate the program entirely. MR. CHAIRMAN: (a)- -pass ; No. 91 --p ass . Resolved that there $8 ,242, 900 for Labour and Manpower. Item 4. Acquis ition/ Construction The Honourable Minister . (b)- -pass ; (4)- -pass ; (e) --pass . Resolution be gr anted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding Manpower Division , $8 ,2 42, 900--pass . of Physical Assets, Reso lution No . 92 --pass . MR . MacMASTER : Mr .

Chairman, the Acquisition/C onstruction of Physical Assets is composed of three items : Manitoba Special Municipal Loans Program, which is for $1 million ; the Community Services Service Worker s' Proje ct for the City of Winnipeg , a program that we cost- share with the city to enable them to take people off the welfare roles and put them in meaning ful employment throughout the city, $182 , OOO; and there is $30 , OOO, which has been an ongoing thing for the last several years .

This is the air compressor stations for the Fire Commis­ sioner 's Office, and that will supply three of them for areas throughout the province. MR . CHAIRMAN: (4 ). The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS . JUNE WESTBU RY: Could I ask the Honourable Minister if he would elab­ orate a little bit on the city employment program , $1 82, 000 .0 0.

Does he have a report on how - I have had·' reports up till about a year ago - how many of those people have moved of f this program into regular employment outside of this, and what the turnover is, and how many have sort of fallen back onto the welfare roles as not having found the program successful? I know it was working very success­ fully. I just hope that it continues to do so . MR . MacMASTER : I don 't have the precise assessment of the program .

It 1 s another area that I have said on the way through that we think we sho uld reviewing along the exact lines as the Member for Fort Rouge said , where they are going and how successful the program is . Her words echo some of the words that I spoke of here two or three times , in fact, before we broke at suppertime, where I said that all programs of this type, all of them, should be reviewed as to the clientele and where they go , and to follow up on them and see just how successful your program is, and to keep in touch with them and see what success they're having as they enter the other work market. - 1169 -

Tuesday , 18 March 1980 We know that there are 33 positions , and we know that during the course of the years, these pos itions are filled by other people . We do not have a total number of involvement from last year ; we 're waiting for the final audit from the city, to go over it with them. We hope at that particular time to initiate a follow-up of whether - let's pick a figure - 12 people got into this program out of the 33 and moved on to better jobs . We certainly hope that is the case .

We 're going to be reviewing the audit with the city of last year's - what is deemed to be a "success" , and I put success in quotation marks because I'm sure we can do a better job of it . And together in the forthcoming year, we 're going to put in a system where we know, in fact, and we have a follow-up , in fact, of where the people are going after they 've leave this particular program . So , the points that the member has made are very legitimate ones, I agree. I have said repeatedly that that's the type of follow-up that we plan on doing with all our progra ms. MRS . WESTBURY : Mr .

Chairperson , I take it then that the Minister will share that information with the House when he receives it . Thank you , Mr. Chairperso n. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Log an. MR . WILLIAM JENKINS: Yes, thank you , Mr . Chairman. There seems to be a mi snomer in the heading of this department. From the figures that the Minister has gi ven us, the item is headed Acquisition and Construction of Physical Assets, but the Minister is now talking about programs . I understand that the first one is a Manitoba Municipal Loans proj ect. Am I correct in what the Minister said; $1 million?

The one for $182, 000 is a joint project that they have with the city of Winnipeg, which is again labour-orie nted, and the only amount that I think the Minister - I just didn't quite get what he said , it 's something to do with con­ structing of fire stations or somethi ng , $32 1000. Can the Minister explain why it is headed up Acquisition and Construction of Physical Assets , when we are really not constructing or acquiring physical assets for this line that appears in the Estimates?

And while he is getting that information , I wonder if the Minister could explain why we see nearly, well, in fact, over a $4 million reduction in this program from last year, which we had an item of $5 ,2 55,0 00 and th is year it 's $1 ,2 12 ,400 .00? Of the program that was in place last year, how much was actually geared to acquiring or constructing physical assets that are required by the department, and how much of that item that is under consideration at the present time was in actual jo b- oriented , labour-intensive projects, or programs ?

Because either there is a wrong description of what this line in the Est imates are , because I take it , to my understanding of the English language, acquisition and construction of physical assets is something tangible that you can see. And if they are - I'm not arguing that we shouldn't be spending this money on these types of projects , but I think that there is something wrong with the heading of the item as we see it here.

Because if we are only acquiring $32 ,000 worth of actual physical assets out of the $1, 212 ,4 00 , I think that the Minister owes us a better explanation than what he has given us so far . MR . MacMASTER : Mr . Chairman, the Municipal Loans Program is, in fact, partly a capital intensive program where the government many years ago set up a large fund to work with municipalities, and that fund is comi ng to an end this year . The program , all stages of it, ends this year , this fiscal year .

The $1 million is meant to carry over any of the programs that haven't been quite com­ pleted, so th at 's why it 's under Capital and Physical Assets. The air compressors certainly are pieces • • they ' re assets ; they are compressors that go to air compressors. And the other program was from the Inner City Works Program which was, I sup­ pose, one time, some place, possibly had some capital in it , and this is a chunk of it th at 's been carried over in that particular heading . It 's a good point .

I suppose that could fit better some other place, and I'll take that particular program • • • I' 11 keep that program in mind next year and locate it someplace else as a cos t-shared program with the city of Winnipeg on manpower development of some type. - 1170 -

Tuesday, 18 March 1980 MR . JENK INS : Then the $182, 000 item , the Minister said that this program is coming to an end. This is the end of the progra m, with the exception of the one that we cost-share with the City . Is that what the Minister is saying? MR . MacMASTER : The $1 million Municipal Loans Program, that 's at an end this month , March . Next month , I'm sorry . And the $1 million we ' re asking to carry over next year to finish off the projec ts .

The other two programs are not ended, and next year I'll certainly take into consideration that inner city works ' program , and I think it 's fair to say , we 'll locate that some other place. MR . JENKINS : Of the reduction from last year to this year , how much of that was under the Manitoba Municipal Loans ' project last year? Was the bulk of the $5 million - $4 mi llion of that remained here was for Physical Assets? MR . CHAIRMAN: (4) --p ass . The Honourable Member for Welling ton. MR . CORRIN : Ye s, Mr .

Chairman , through you to the Minister , I wanted to know if it would be appropriat e, and I presume from the sort of questioning that has been going on , that it wou ld be, to discuss welfare subsidi zed employment programs relative to the City of Winnipeg on this particular point . -- ( Interjection )- - Yes , programs that are subsidi zed by th is level of government in the welfare employment related area . I say that to you , Mr ••• MR . CHAIRMAN: • honourable member that this is Acquisition and Con- struction of Physical Assets , rather than we lfare subsidized programs . MR .

CORRIN : Yes, and I don't what I - I wasn 't listening . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Mr . Chairman, the Honourable Minister admitted that one of the items, in respect to this , which is a cos t�shared city and provincial item, is not really physical acquisition of any assets , but is a cost-sh ared employment pro­ gram, and I think that 's what the Honourable Member for Wellington is trying to refer to. MR. CORRIN: I thank the honourable member for his ass istance. I should have probably been paying more detailed attention to what had transpired. Mr .

Chairman, as I'm sure the Minister is aware , roughly in January of 1979 , the federal government by virtue of its Canada Works ' grant regulations , was called upon or saw fit to withdraw its support for an employment program in the inner city of Winnipeg , known as the Community Home Services ' project . At that time , there was considerable controversy because neither the fede