Manitoba Hansard — 19 March 1962 (Sitting 33, 26th Legislature, 5th Session)

26-5-33

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legis lative Ass embl y Of Ma ni toba DEBATES an d PROCEED INGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Vol. VII No. 33 2: 30 p.m. Monday, March 19, 1962 . 5th Session, 26th Legislature ---- - -- -P-ri-nt-ed _ b _ y _ R - . S - . Ev- an-s.-Q -ue-en-'s-P-rin-te-r-fo-r -th-e -Pr-ov-ln-ce_o_f M - a -ni-to-ba- , W - i -nru- ·peg

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 p.m. Monday, March 19th, 1962. Openin g Prayer by Mr . Speak er. MR . SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Notice of Motion Introduction of Bills HON. STEWART E. Mc LEAN (Minister of Education)(Dauphin) introduced Bill No. 78,

an Act to amend The County Courts Act; and Bill No. 77,

an Act to amend the Surrogate Courts Act. HON . GEORGE BUTTON (Minister of Agriculture) (Rockwood-Iberville) introduced Bill No . 85,

an Act to amend The Livestock and Livestock Products Act . . MR. KEITH ALEXANDER (Roblin) introduced Bill No. 82,

an Act to erect the Village of Roblin into a Town and to enlarge the Boundaries thereof and to amend The Municipal Boundar ies Act. MR . S. PETERS (Elmwood) introduced Bill No . 83,

an Act to amend The Employment Standards Act. MR . SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Labour)(T he Pas) : Mr . Speak er, on a point of order, I would like you to consider this on the grounds of anticipation , as I believe that this matter was raised in the Throne Speech. MR . RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the NDP)(R adisson): Mr .

Speak er, on the point of order, may I suggest to the Honourable the Minister of Labour that until the Bill is printed and before us, it will not disclose to all of the members of the legislature what is the contents ofthe Bill; and further to that, Mr. Speaker, may I suggest to the Honourable the Minister of Labour that the Empl oyment Standards Act covered a wide variety of legislation pertai ning to labour and I suggest that there 's no point of order at this stage. MR . SPEAKER: I would say that I will take it under advisement. I don't know too much about the subject matter of the Bill until I read it . MR .

PAULLEY: Mr . Speak er , I suggest that the first reading be proceeded with, and if there is a point of order, and if the government wishes to reject it, the time to do it is on sec ond reading after the bill has been printe d, and, at that time the ruling be made as to whether or not it is in order . How can you rule on som ething that is not before the House? HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce)( Fort Rouge) : The point I would make at this time, Mr . Speak er, is that Mr .

Speaker has exp ressed the wish to rese rve the item and make his statement at a later date, and it would seem right that the House accord that privilege . MR . PAULLEY: On that point, Mr . Speak er, may I again humbly suggest to you that even you, Sir, do not know the contents of it until it is printe d and before the House . MR . SPEAKER: It would ap pear to me that in the introduction of the Bill, while the con tents of the Bill is not known, we should proceed with the printing of those bills so I can have a look at it and see whether it's in order or whether it's not .

Once it's introduced into the House it is rather difficult for a Sp eaker to rule it out. MR . PAULLEY: •...•. did you say once it's been introduced--(interjection)--<>h yes, but do you not agree with me, Mr. Speak er,. that it should be proceeded so that it may be printed and make your ruling at that time. MR. SPEAKER: I will direct the printing of the bill so-- MR. PAULLEY: .•. ••. in order that there be no difficulty, that the motion is at the pres ent time acce pted by Your Honour ? MR. SPEAKER: No, no, I wouldn't go that far to accep t the bill until I-- MR . PAULLEY: Then, Mr .

Speaker, may I respect fully ask you, Sir, how are you going to rule on the matt er, and how are the members of the legislature going to consider whether or March 19th, 1962 Page 821

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd.) •..•.• not your ruling is in order if they have nothing before them?- (interjection)--So I would suggest to Your Honour that you accept the motion for the introduction of the bill as proposed by my honourable colleague this afternoon; allow the bill to be printed and when the contents are revealed, then if Your Honour is of the opinion that the subject matter is out of order, you rule at that time .

May I suggest, Sir, that the same thing holds true of any other piece of legislation dealing with the whole of the Province of Manitoba; that you don't know the subject matter of any resolution until it is printed, or any amendment to any bill until the subject matter is properly before us . So I respectfully suggest to Your. Honour, that you accept the motion for the introduction of this matter, and then, if Your Honour is of the opinion, after that is done, and when it is printed, that it is in conflict with the announcement in the Throne Speech, then you rule it out of order.

You cannot do it now, may I respectfully suggest. MR . EVANS : It seems to me we want to get to the same ph:lce, Mr . Speaker. We want to determine whether or not any bill is in conflict and if it's permitted within the rules of the House to allow the Bill to go to first reading and to be printed and the subject matter to be considered, and then the validity of the Bill to be challenged at second reading, and your ruling given at that time, then that would certainly be accep table to this side of the House .

There is no desire here to see any Bill introduced if it's not in conflict with, or in anticipation of legislation that's al ready announced. MR . PAULLE Y: I appreciate then, Mr. Speaker, that I have the support of the Leader of the House that this should be acc epted at this time and that Your Honour make his reading when the Bill is printed and the subject matter before us . MR . SPEAKER: I would accep t the Bill on one considera tion, and that is when it comes up for second reading that I will have the right to rule whe ther the motion is in order or is not in order.

Technically speaking, I believe that it's usual that if the Speaker accepts a motion he has difficulty in ruling it out of order at a future date, but-- MR. PAU LLEY: Mr . Speaker I would agree that you would have the right on introduction for second reading to rule the subject matter of the bill out of order. MR . D. L. CAMP BE LL (Lakeside) : Mr .

Speaker, I submit on the point of order that it goes a little further than that, and that it is not only up to you as Speaker of the House to make a move in this connection; but if after the Bill is printed, if the Honourable the Minister or any member of the government decide that it contravenes or anticipates legislation, that they are bringing in, then all that is needed is for any one of the Ministers of the Crown to stand in his place and state that the government is bringing in legislation on this matter and you automatical ly have to rule it out of order. MR .

SPEAKER: Under those conditions I'll accept the first reading of the Bill. Mr . Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR . NEL SON SHOE MAKER (Gladstone) introduced Bill No. 67,

an Act to validate By-law No. 567 of the Rural Municipality of Langford and By-law No . 1611 of the Town of Neepawa. MR . W. B. SCARTH (River Heights) introduced Bill No. 92,

an Act to incorporate St. John's Co llege Endowment Foundation. MR . SPEAKER: Before I call the Orders of the Day, I should like to call the members' attention to 30 pupils, Grade VIII, from Gordon Bell School under the leadership of Mrs. Brown. This sc hool is situate d in Wolseley constituency and is represented very ably by the Honourable Duff Roblin in the Legislature, the Premier of Manitoba . MR . GILDAS MOLGAT (Lea der of the Opposition)(Ste. Rose) : Mr . Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I'd like to address a question to the Leader of the House . MR . SPEA KER: I just have one more item .

Before the Orders of the Day I should also like to introduce to the members of the House a group of people from the constituency of the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture, the constituency of Rockwood. This group of people came in speci fically to Winnipeg to witness the Session of the Legislature this afternoon and I would suggest the members be on their best behaviour so they will not take any wrong impress ions home to Rockwood to bother the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR . MOLGAT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker--I'm sorry, I thought you were through with the announcements .

In the absence of the Attorney-General I would address this question to the Leader of the House, Mr. Speaker. In view of the reports of the troubles at Brandon, has the Page 822 March 19th, 1962

(Mr . Molgat, cont' d.) . •..•• governme nt started an investigation of the whole question of the Brandon Gaol and the handling of funds and of prison ers ? MR . EVANS : Yes, Mr .

Speak er, I am able to inform the honourable gentleman that I have read the account and received such inform ation as I was able to get from the Depart ment of the Attorney-General, and I am informed that an investigation was launched some time ago by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, "Mlo have been given instructions to undertake the most comp lete investigation of this incident and the officials at the Gaol in question have been instructed to provide the most complete co-operation with the investigation. MR . MOLGAT: Mr.

Speaker, could the Minister indicate when he expects the investigation to be completed , and whether a report will be submitted to the House ? MR . EVANS: I am not able, I'm afraid, to answer those questions . I am not aware how long the investigation will take. I'm sure by the time it's completed the Attorney-General will be back, and I am sure that he will make the announcement as to what furtherst eps willbetaken . MR . MOLGAT: Mr . Speaker, a subsequent question.

Will this inve!ltigation cover the other gaols in the province such as Dauphin and Headingly where there is a possi bility of this same situation existing, or will it be confined to Brandon? MR . EVANS: Mr . Speak er, the only investigation of which I am aware is the one into the gaol at Brandon. Doubtless if the Attorney-General finds a situation which requires looking into either further in Brandon or elsewhere he will proceed accordingly. MR. DAVID ORLIKOW (St. John's) •••..• assume that the reason the RCMP is called in is that there may be criminal matters involved.

I'm not too concerned with that, but I would like to ask the Attorney-General when he comes back, to answer a few questions on this matter. First of all, was the Attorney-General's Department aware of the system which was in operation at the Brandon Gaol in respect to the priso ners ' money; second, did the Attorney-General's De partment give approval to that system; and third, does a similar system of handling money pre vail at Headingly or at any of the other provincial institutions ? MR .

EVANS: As my honourable friend indicated, these questions will be conveyed to the Attorney-General--they'll be taken as notice now, conveyed to the Attorney-General's. He will be able to answer when he retur ns . MR . ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George) : Mr . Speak er, the Leader of the House said the investigation was launched some time ago. Could he tell us what he means by some time ago? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speak er, I'd be glad to tell you the course of events. This is a memo provided to me by the staff of the Attorney- General. On the 2nd of March, 1962, Matthews called the Attorn ey-General's Departm ent .

Matthews is the name of the individual concerned in this incident. He did not identify himself as an ex-inmate but merely made inquiries as to how he might collect monies owed him by a guard. He was advised to place the matter in the hands of his own lawyer and proceed by civil action. Matthews identified the guard as William G. McKeag. On the 7th of March, as a result of information received from Matthews, a press cor respondent with the Free Press called the Superintendent of Brandon Gaol asking for informat ion relative to the handling of inmates and their prope rty.

Following this call the Supe;rintendent had Guard Officer McKeag before him and confirmed that he had in fact borrowed money from Matthews . The Superintendent then asked McKeag for his resignation since he had committed a serious breach of gaol regulations. McKeag tendered his resignation in writing at that time effective the same day--as a matter of fact he departed immediately for his home and did not even continue his duties the rest of that day.

The 15th of March, the Free Press correspo ndent visited the gaol at Brandon and in the absence of the Superintendent obtained from the Deputy Sup erintendent general inform ation relative to the handling of Matthews' pers onal funds while an inmate in that institution. Sixteenth of March, the Free Press corre spondent called at the office of the Director of Correction, Mr . A. J. Kitchen, where he spoke to Mr. Kitchen. He reco unt ed his information and requested further information on the internal administration of the gaol.

He was informed that the information he wanted could only be given Vli th the authority of the Min ister. Mr . Kitchen immediately informed the Minister of the press corres pondent 's visit and the Minister requested the Deputy Minister to order a full investigation. The Deputy Minister instructed the RCM Police to investigate the matter and submit a full report . On the 17th of March --the

article ap peared in the Free Press, on the 17th of March, 1962. MR . GUTTORMSON: Could you tell us \\hat was the date of the res ignation of the guard? March 19th, 1962 Page 823

MR . EVANS: To repeat, Mr . Chairman, the 7th of March. MR . E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead) : Before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. It has to do with crop insuran ce, reinsurance.

I no ticed in the reading of the Federal Hansard of February 26th, that the Prime Minister of Canada in replying to a question in this regard, stated that up to that time there had been no formal re quest or submission from any of the provincial governments with regard to reinsurance , and went on to say in reply that there had been some informal contacts between officials of the two departments . My question is: has this province as yet made any formal request or submission with a view to asking the federal government to assume some of the liability through reinsurance?

When I say formal I mean government level. MR. HUTTON: Yes, there has been formal requests at the ministerial level, but I expect that the matter has not as yet come before the Executive Council of Ca nada, and in that respect it would be true that a formal request of the Province of Manitoba has not been considered by the federal cabinet.

But nevertheless there have been prolonged negotiations , it is true at the administra tive level because it is a highly technical and involved matter and it is in our interests in promoting our case that the members of the staff at Ottawa should understand our proposal in detail, so the pronouncement that you have related to the House doesn't cause me too much con cern. I know that the matter v.i.ll come before the federal cabinet in due course . MR . GUTTORMSON : Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Acting Minister of Public Works.

On Friday he indicate d he would look into the matter of policy regarding the us age of salt on the highways . Is he prepared to tell us today? MR . WALTER WEffi (Acting Minister of Public Works)(Minnedosa) : Mr. Speaker, with regard to salt on the highway, I might say that the information that I wanted was just brought to me in the House about two minutes ago. I haven't had much time to go over it but the general procedure that is followed under icy conditions are as follows :

(1) The removal by ice blades on motor patrol, and these work only where there is sufficient thickness so that the materials can be broken clear without damaging the surface of the pavement .

(2) Sand treated with chemical. Sand is placed in stock piles in the fall and to prevent it from freezing and becoming .unmaneage able, chemical is added . Chemical on the surface of stone helps to bond it to the ice surface . Without this the sand would be kicked off by fast moving traffic . Chemical content varies from 3 to 5 percent .

(3) The application of pure chemical. When methods (1) and (2) fail and where it is considered too dangerous to leave the roadway untreated, this latter procedure applies , gen erally to Trans-C anada Highway and PTH No. 75 and only rarely in those areas, this due to the high traffic volumes on these two roads . The general policy and methods have not been changed for some years, although the extent of use was increased on instructions from the former Min ister following complaints from the public as to poor road conditions "lillich were alleged to be the cause of fatal accidents .

In 1962 the paved mileage of highway system was approximately 940 miles . In the winter of '61 and '62, 1, 865 tons of chemical were ordered for 2, 908 miles of paved surface or surface-treated highways . The road in question, in another note that I have here, in 1962 has only been treated for salt twice . I think pos sibly it would be \\1. se for me to comment on the investigation that I prompted following the report in the Free Press on Friday; and that the actual winter maintenance project which was concerned in this report began on Monday, March 12th.

Snow and blowing snow occur red with moderately high temperatures causing the snow to stick to the pavement. This was compacted and glazed by traffic forming ice which became dangerous for traffic . On Tuesday motor patrols were sent out and removed as much ice as possible, but due to the slickness of the surface and the very thinness of the deposit, weren't able to remove all of it. On Wednesday a maintenance crew was sent out and applied straight chemicals to the surface, which of course softened the ice . This was followed by motor patrols which pulled the slushed ice off the surface road.

On Thursday the crew working out of MacGregor went out to patrol their beat and to check the effectiveness of the work carried out on Wednesday and to check for any minor areas which were still considered to be dan gerous . The crew stationed at MacGregor travelled to the east end of their beat--approximately 10 miles. They were flagged down on the highway when they were returning to MacGregor by the .reporter who asked them if they were using pure salt . He was told by the foreman that they were. The reporter asked him how far they were going .

The foreman told him that they were going to Sidney, which was the end of their beat . The newspaper Page 824 March 19th, 1962

(Mr. Weir, cont'd .) •• � ••• reporter then told the foreman he wanted pictures of the salt-spread er being started, of the salt being spread and that he would like to be able to get into the truck and take pictures from that position . The truck mo ved a short distance out of MacGregor before they approached the first ice area. The foreman then raised the box and started the spreader. At this point the newspaper reporter climbed into the box of the truck and they proceeded down the road. They travelled about 200 yards to the first ice .

The foreman found that the tempera ture had risen to a point at which the ice was starting to disintegrate and on his own accord de cided it was unnecessa ry to place chemicals . He then stopped the truck, lowered the box, stopped the spreader; the reporter got out, and the truck proceeded west to the junction of PTH No. 34, thence south 11 miles to the end of his beat, the hill north of the railway cross ing, to make sure it was not icy, turned around and at the end of the beat returned to the junction.

By this time it was obvious that further ice treatment was unnecessa ry due to the rise in tempera ture; therefore he returned to MacGregor. This was merely a normal action on the part of the maintenance foreman who co -operated within the limits of his duties with the reporter--allowing him to examine the truck, climb into the box, etcetera. He did not, however, apply any salt simply because it was unnecessa ry. When he was asked earlier by the reporter whether he intended to apply any more salt, he said he probably would since he did not know at the time that futher application would be unnecessary.

The foreman denied vehemently the statement in the Free Press that he had travelled south at 65 miles per hour, claiming that he never exceeded 45 miles per hour. The truck was tested this morning by the Superintendent of the Highways Branch with a new speedometer and it was found that the m-aximum speed the truck would reach when empty was 58 miles per hour. The foreman states the allegation of a partially filled bag is incorrect. He said that approximately three empty bags were miss ing when he unloaded--th ese having blown out. But he did state em phatically that they were empty. The statement in the

article alleging the foreman had said that the Highways Branch had started an intensified salting program is incorrect. In fact this

section of Trans-Canada Highway has only been treated with straight chemicals twice during the winter. Once on two curves following freezing rains in the fall, and the seco nd time was on Wed nesday, March 14th. MR . GUTTORMSON : Mr. Speaker, a subsequent question. What is the normal amount of salt used in the mixture on highways ? What is the percentage? MR . WEIR: Mr. Speaker, to repeat, chemical content varies from three to five percent . MR . SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No . 39 . The Honourable the Minister of Public Works . Mr. Weir presented Bill No. 39 ,

an Act to amend the Public Works Act for seco nd reading. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR . WEIR: Mr. Speaker, I think that parts of this Bill were explained at the time it was introdUced in Committee . There were one or two things that I think were missed at that particu lar time ; namel y--and one of the main reasons for bringing the Bill in at this particular time is that there appears to be a certain amount of confusion in the minds of people in Manitoba as to lOO% ro ads, other roads and various types of roads in Manitoba and it was felt that it would be wise to clarify it.

The other thing is that these roads that the Province of Manitoba has been con structing over the past number of years on a lOO% basis have still been under the control of the municipality . The municipality had control of weight and various things like that and the number of roads that there are getting to be constructed on a lOO% basis bring it to the point that the con trol should be vested in those that have to pay for the building and the maintenance of the road, and it was felt that it could be done best this way and calling them all by the same name.

There are problems on these roads with regard to parking in some areas where there are narrow bridges that are--in areas where fish can be caught; there are dangers of people standing on narrow bridges and the pos sibility of them being badly hurt. And it's desirable, I think, that the control of these roads be vested in the Province of Manitoba. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I was interested in this Bill at the time when we were con sidering the resolution preceding the bill; I wondered whether this was not a gimmick to expand the provincial road system, and said so at that time .

I haven't been convinced otherwise, but it does appear to me in this bill that there is something that the Minister should inform us before we pass this bill for sec ond reading. While I appreciate the fact, Mr. Speaker, we shouldn 't March 19th, 1962 Page 825

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd .) .. ••.. deal with specific sections within the bill, it does appear to me that there is no directive, other than that of the Minister, as to what the construction of these roads should be. It appears to me by the terminology of the bill that if it was desirable for the Minister to classify a wagon trail as a provincial road, it was perfectly within his power to do so. Now generally speaking, we have our various types of road in the province in our shared roads with the municipalities .

Th ere's a certain level of construction that has to be done by the municipality to share in such things as market roads, and then when they bring them up to a higher standard a different percentage of construction grants is awarded to the municipality. But as I read this particular bill it simply states provincial roads shall be constructed and main tained to such standard as the Minister may deem neces sary or desirable in each case; and not necess arily to the standard to which any provincial trunk highway shall be built.

I'd like a full explanation from the Minister as to what this legislation means in respect of this . As I men tioned before, it's quite conceivable that in order to enhance the appearance of the annual road map of the Government of Manitoba that all we'd have to have was an additional amount of num bers or symbols to indicate roads, which wouldn't of neces sity mean that these were roads of a standard sufficiently high for traffic throughout the whole year . --(interjection)--Yes. Actually, as my honourable friend the Member for Lakeside with his interjection has just said: This appears to me , Mr.

Speaker, to be another Order-in-Council deal where the government can simply build roads behind a desk. We'v e seen a lot of thatparticularly since my honourable friends took over the Government of Manitoba. And I want the assurance--I want the assurance from the Minister that when we're dealing with this piece of legislation that there should be more spelling out of the type of construction. We know that as we go into some other jurisdictions and pick up a road map we see that classified as a highway, on the map and quite often it's going-through a muskeg or a bog and we get bogged down.

Thus far in the Province of Manitoba we haven't had that because we do take our chances on such things as municipal roads but they're not indicated on the map other than that. I think that this is too important a matter because the Minister of Industry and Commerce is always telling us of what he is doing to attract tourists to Manitoba; hoyv we have to make pro visions for the tourists in Manitoba, brush up our motels and do many othe-r things in order to make our tourist industry attractive to all of the people of the North American Continent, and, in particular, to our Canadian friends.

And if as the result of this--as I called once before a· gimmick, and on the face of this legislation it appears that I was correct in that--that if this is all it's going to achieve then I'm sure that it will be detrimental to the Minister of Industry and Commerce . I would like to have an expansion from the Minister of exactly what is mea nt by the roads constructed and approved by a Minister.

I would like the assurance from the Minister and from the government that these roads that are now going to ·be called provincial roads and are going to be placed on the map as such will be up to at least a minimum standard in order, as I pointed out, that the tourists who are coming in to our province and, indeed, our tourists with in our province, are assured that the roads are truly all-weather roads and are of capable stan dards. MR. PETER WAGNER (Fisher) : Mr.

Speaker, I just want a little bit of clarification on these roads, because as far as I'm concerned I don'� know how they are proclaimed now, because there is a ce rtain road by the name of second 68 which is Fisher Branch-Sylvan and it's declar ed as a highway. And that highway particularly in some places is lower and worse than a 50/50 basis road that we build them in a school district.

Now there's a portion of a road in Gimll con stituency and in Fisher constituency called Junction No . 7 Highway from Fraserwood Junction to Arborg, and it's a very great road; it's wide and high and it's gravelled and, as far as Wagner engineer is , it should be classed as a highway, and yet it is not proclaimed. And why I say it's not proclaimed as a highway due to the fact that I asked this legislature and the Minister in the past to build access roads to towns in the same standard as the highways and I was told and re ferred all the time that it is not a highway yet--it's not proclaimed .

Now I would like to have some clarification what we call a highway, whatwe call an. off-standard road and all this nature, because, in my opinion, if that second highway 68 is called a highway with, such low standard of road and this road No . 7 with such a high quality standard road, and yet this one is proclaimed and that one i.s not. MR. EDMOND PREFONTAINE (Carillon): Mr . Speaker; I was on my feet about the same Page 826 March 19th, 1962

(Mr . Prefontaine , con t'd.) •.• ••. time as the Leader of the NDP was up, to bring about the same point . Maybe I might bring it in different words . If I understood the Ministe r well, I think he told us that the purpose of this bill is to end the confu sion that exists in the province with res pect to different appellations of roads like other roads are lOO% roads, and he now brings in pro vincial roads. I, for one , believe that we might be heading towards more confusion beca use these provincial roads would be built of different specifications .

Apparently there 's no set specifica tions set in the bill; it would be left with the Mini ster. Maybe they'll be all about the same stan dard I suppose--let us hope that they will. But I don't see why it should not be stated in the bill itseli rather than leave the Mini ster at liberty to building these roads at the standar d that he wishes depending on the circumstance s. So what will be in the future the difference between a provincial road and a provincial trunk highway? These two appellations are pretty close.

Some of these _roads will be of the same standar d apparen tly, according to the working of the bill, of the same stand ard as the provincial trunk highways ; others will be of a lesser stan dard. And I don't see that we will be getting away from confusion . Maybe we might have the same conf usion after the bill is passed. The purpose of getting rid of confusion was good, but I won der whether we will have less confusion after we have passed this bill. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr .

Speaker, it is a principle of our House that we are not supposed to discuss the indiv idual clauses of a Bill at the time of second reading , and that instead we are supposed to deal with the principle . I suggest to you that there are at least three principle s contained in this particular bill and I think that gives us the opportunity of discussing the differ ent sections that contain those principle s. One of them is that men tione d by my colleague from Carillon and the honourable the Lead er of the New Democ ratic Party.

I shan't deal with that one any further than to emphasize what the Leader of the NDP said when he mentioned the fact that this governm ent, Mr. Speaker, after spending a great deal of time criticizing the roads that had been built by the former adminis tra tion , within a few months of taking office, apparen tly decided that those had been very good roads after all, because they proceeded to raise the classification of them and give a much higher . weight limit on a great num ber of them .

No change whatever in the roads, but a great change in the thinking of the government after they took office, because they raised the weight limit appar ently -having decided that these were much better roads than they had led the people of the prov ince to believe. Then there is anothe r principle that I think should be noted here, and that's the one con tain ed in the first clause .

There was a good bit of discussion at the time that the int roduction of this bill was considered in committee about whether the, in the light of the estimates that we have placed before us for the Public Works Department, to what would be the highway program this year, the provincial trunk highway program , beca use the estimates are down from a year ago and even the maintenanc e of highways is down, so a lot of the me mbers were wondering about that.

But here we see in the first clause of this bill that the Lieutenan t-Governor-in-Coun cil may, · by order-in-council, declare a highway or a portion of a highway, including a highway or a portion of a highway that has previously been declared to be a provincial trunk highway, to be a provincial road . In other words, not only have we received no assurance of the provincial trunk highway program, but this bill now takes authority to reduce the mileage of provincial trunk highways by making portions or all of such highways into provincial roads. Well I think, Mr.

Speaker, that we re ally need an explanation--not of what that means, because it's mighty clear what it means-- but I think we need some inf ormation as to what the government in tends to do in this regard, and if they don't intend to change the provincial trunk highways or some of them to provincial roads, why have a clause of this kind? Then in the fourth paragraph of the bill, Mr .

Speaker, if I read it correctly, we see where the government is taking authority here to just-automatically--without any action at all except to cancel the provincial road designation--to automatically get out of the care of it and turn it back on the municipalit ies .

Well now this is one of the things that to rural municipalit ies has been a real problem in days gone past, and I'm sure that both my honourable friend who no w is Acting Minister and his predecessor, I'm sure that both of them know of many delegations from municipal councils coming in to urge that if even a small portion of a provincial trunk high way is being abandoned beca use of a change in location--how they urge that the government would continue to look after at least the mainten ance of that road. But if this bill goes through in its March 19th, 1962 Page 827

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) ....•. pre sent form , Mr. Speaker, we're simply saying that by nam ing an effective date back goes the road to the municipality concern ed. Well I certainly think that we need some explanation of what is proposed in that regard. lVIR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister is closing the debate . MR. WEIR: Mr . Speak er, if no one else has anything to say, it might be well if I attempted to answer one or two of" the comm ents that have been made . The Honourable Leader of the New Demo cratic Party talks about "gimmicks ". Well, Mr .

Speaker, if this is a gimmick, then I sub mit to you that probably all of the other Acts that we have dealing with roads, of being able to move them up and down, are also a gimmick. This bill does nothing more than incorpo rate the same term s and conditions as now exist with regard to lOO% and other roads, with regard to provincial trunk highways, or with regard to main ma rket roads . By order-in -council a provincial trunk highway can be sent back to a ma in ma rket road.

I think, although it doesn't seem to be the case of the people on the other side, .that there has to be a certain amount of room left for common sense regardless of who the administra tion is . These powers exist at the mom ent and I haven't noted any abus e of these pow ers by either the former government or of this one . The Honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party spe aks about just drawing lines or maps and wagon trails and calling them provincial roads . He appears to have the idea that this . creates goodwill.

I would like to suggest to the Honourable Leader of the New Democra tic Party that if any government did that to me and I got on that road that it would be the poorest piece of goodwill that they had ever pulled. He talks about being bogged down on other territories . Well I guess he has travelled more on other lands than I have because I have found their des criptions of their roads equally as accurate as our own and have really had no difficulties .· The Honourable Member for Fisher--poor, poor old Fisher-- We don't get any money up in Fisher for roads .

Well, he talks about all different types of roads; he talks about provincial trunk highways and all of the other aspects . I think all of the men have touched critically on one of the main portions of the Bill is that lOO% roads are sometimes put into areas that may not warrant prov incial trunk highway standards and there is no other group of people that are in a posi tion to build the road; and I think it's reasonable to assume that the pople that build the road, the pe ople that spend the money should assume control of it .

We 've the power to build the roads now but we have no power to exercise the normal rights of the road over them . The Honourable Member for Carillon talks about confusion . Well I don't know, Mr . Speak er, I think that he has generated more confusion than all of the rest of the fellows that have spok en. There didn't appear to be a great deal to what he said. He attempted to say what had al ready been said in a different manner but I think that the same answe rs would apply. Now the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition has decided that we should talk about weight limits on provincial trunk highways .

I'll be quite ple ased to talk about it, but I think that it mi ght be more appropriate if we left it until estima te ti me. There are diff erences of opinion on that . They've been expressed in this House before . Ten chances to one they will be express ed during my es timate s, and I'd miss my guess if they aren't talked about for a few sessio ns yet to come .

But the idea of reducing mileage of provincia l trunk highways to provincial roads, I think that it is quite pos sible--quite possi ble indeed, that as some new provinc ial trunk highways are es tablished on new locations , that instead of turning the road back to the municipality to look after, particularly in the case of black,-topped roads, that it would be more to the point that the road be maintai ned by the Province of Manitoba who have the equipment to maintain black-top. Most municipalities don't have this type of equipment .

It is as necess ary to have the opportunity of giving back the authority, and giving back the respons ibility of these roads where it is nece ss ary to the municipality, as it is necess ary with regard to provincial trunk highways .

We have many, many laws on the books in the Statutes of Manitoba that if they were to be abused, could be abused and abused to no end, but I think that we all--! know that we on this side, even if we were on the other side , I think, would be in a pos ition to leave a certain am ount to the judgment of the people that were sitting on this side, that they wouldn't be ridiculous about some of these things and carry things to the ultimate conclusion that they could go to . Now Mr. Speaker, I don't know whether I've answered all the questions or not .

I think that I've answered most of the ones that deal with the principle of the bill. I will be quite happy to take anything else that there mi ght be up in Commi ttee, and I have no apologies whatsoever to Page 828 March 19th, 1962

(Mr . Weir, cont'd .) .••.•. present for bringing in this bill . Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No . 44 . The Honourable Minister of Health . HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Heal th)(Gimli) presented Bill No . 44,

An Act to amend The Health Services Act, and Bill No . 49,

An Act to amend the Department of Heal th Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. MOLGAT: Is the Minister making a statement at this time? MR . JOHNSON (Gimli) : Mr . Speaker, this is the Bill which sets up the Manitoba Hospital Comm ission under the Department of Health Act, and also the Manitoba Health Co uncil which will replace the present Advisory Commis sion under the Health Services Act, which is the Bill which preceded this one this afternoon, and I would like the committee, or the House, to be clear in this regard.

Really , the amendments in the previous bill simply replac e the Commissi on with the Health Co uncil and the composition of that Council is spelle d out in detail in the se.cond half of the present bill before us . The composition--dealing with the Manitoba Hospital Commission, I think the highlights are simply spelle d out here, tha t there will be the Chairman, who shall be a civil servant, and up to a total of five members may be appointed to such Co mmission and their method of remuneration and duties are spelled out.

They are really charged, as it were, with supporting the Commiss ioner in dealing with the operation of the Plan in constantly review ing current and capital programs and matters of policy which will be brought to the Minister . I would point out that this is spelle d out so that, IbeJ,i eve it's understandable on direct reading- the principle --! feel that this reading is the main thing--the principle of doing this is, as I have enunciated at the first reading, to get that support at the top, which I feel is so necessary in what is now one large utility .

With respect to the Hospital Co uncil, I would point out to the honourable members that the composition of this Co uncilis a compositionofthe councils whichnow exist under the Advisory Commis sion under the Health Services Act and the Manitoba Hospital Co uncil in that it provides, as the Bill points out, for the Deputy Minister and the Commissi oner to be on this Council --C ommissioner of Hospitalization--plus eleven appointed by the then Governor-in-C oun.cil, three of whom shall be nom inated by the medical profession,

whereas under the Heal th Services Act and the Advisory Commis sion there was the same provision, similar lywith the municipal authorities and appointments, this is simi lar . Under the Hospital Co uncils we had a member of the Associated Hospitals on that Commiss ion and we've made provision here . Likewise on the Hospital Co uncil we 've made provision for a member of the Ca tholic Hospital Conference --that is here--and then again, three citizens who shall be appoint ed atlarge .

To this Heal th Co uncil the Minister is permitted to place any matter of concern to the Health Department before the Co uncil and the method of their remuneration is similar to the method adopted under the Advisory Commiss ion under the Health Services Act. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for his statement on this. We had a discussfon, as it was, under the committee earlier, and I don't intend to go over it all at this stage.

It seems to me that the Bill covers more ground than what I had anticipated from our dis cussion in committee, and we'l l have further questions when we come along to the com mittee stage in law amendments when. this comes up. In particul ar, now we have the details of the com position of the Comm ission. I note that there's provision made that the Chairman shall, and the members may, be members of the civil service, if I read the Bill correctly.

We'l l be interest ed in knowing there what the plans are once we're in committee stage, and in particular will this be a competition; will it be held under normal civil service examinations and so on, or are the appointments to be made separately ? As well, are members of this House authorized to be members of the Commis sion, or are they not? I see no explu sion in the Bill. Those are about all the comments I would make at this time, Mr. Speaker. We certainly will have further ques tions when we come up to law amendments committee . MR. PAULLE Y: Mr.

Speaker, I have one or two comments I would like to make in connec tion with this Bill. When the matter was before us in resol ution I suggested to the Minister that because of the fact that the public more and more are becoming concerned with the matters of payment under the Department of Health, and in particular hospitalization, that I thought that they should be brought more and more into a position where they may follow the whole of the question of the activities within this very important segment of our normal life . March 19th, 1962 Page 829

(Mr . Paulley, cont'd .) •.•••• I would suggest to the Minister--in the Bill it is mentioned, three or five members of the Comm iss ion--! would suggest to him and to the government that they give very serious consider ation in sel ecting the members of the Commi ssion, that a member presum ably to represent the citizens of the province at large be a member of this Comm iss ion .

I appreciate the fact that in sofar as operational details and knowledge of the operation of hospitals and the medical aspects of it is concerned, that in those sectors that you should have people who are well versed in these particular functions ; but I do suggest to the Minister that it would be well--and I'm not making any suggestion of any particular individual representing any particular group of the citizenry at large --but I do respectfully suggest to him that some--may I say, Mr .

Speaker--"or dinary Joe" be a member of this Comm iss ion in order that there will be some semblance of public participa tion as divorced from profess ional participation in this Commission. Another point that I would raise with the Minister on seco nd reading of this Bill, Mr . Speaker--! note that the Commission itself is to make a report to the Minister following the end of the fiscal year in each year .

I would suggest that he give consideration to an amendment so that, in addition to the report being made to the Minister, that a report direct of the Commis sion be laid before this Legisla ture when it meets � I am not quite positive whether under the present Hospital Insurance Act this has to be table d before us .

I know that the Minister has an obliga tion to report the activities of his department to the Legislatur e, but I would suggest in the legi s lation itself it may be as well that the report, in addition to being made to the Minister, it also be mandatory that the Commis sion makes its report to this Legisla ture. Those are the only comm ents that I have at this particular time, Mr. Speaker. MR.

JOHNSON (Gimli) : In closing this debate at the seco nd reading, I'll be glad to discu ss with the members at the law amendments comm ittee any details which come to their attention, but it certainly has been the intention in writing the Act that the Chairman of the Commis sion should be a member appointed to the civil service and not necess arily the others at all . We hope that these will be ordinary Joes, as the Honourable Leader of the NDP has said, and reflect the confidence of the public at large .

I think it is understood that--as I understand in the writing of this Bill with the Council--it's understood that .the Minister should certainly be the one who re ports the activities of this body to the Legislature, and also it's always understood that the people at large have the right of appeal to the Minister. Mr . Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried . MR . SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No . 50 . The Honourable the Minister of Health. MR . JOHNSON (Gimli) presented Bill No. 50,

an Act to amend the Hospital Debentures Guarantee Act for second reading. Mr .• Speaker put the question. MR . JOHNSON (Gimli) : Mr . Speaker, at the time when the resolution concerning this Bill was before the House I think I explaine d about all there is to exPlain in this particular bill. This is the authority being sought to amend the Hospital Debentures Guarantee Act to increase the amount of the guarantee with respect to the Dauphin General Hospital by $10 0, 000 .

This was occ asioned by the need for complete renovation of the older hospital and it was felt during con struction, as I have explained before, that it would be more ec onomical to proceed with that at the time they were developing the new wing, and this further extension is required.

I am begg ing the indulgen ce of the Commi ttee in this respect in that we did extend it a year ago and we thought we had the thing in hand but this is some ·additional expense which was shared with the local people and under this guarantee as I pointed out to the Co mmittee provision is being made for another arrangement re hospital financing which will be before us under the Hospital Services Insurance Act I believe--or the Hospitals Act-- Mr . Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 51.

The Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce . MR . EVANS presented Bill No . 51,

an Act to amend the Business Development Fund Act for seco nd reading. Mr . Speaker put the question. MR . lVIOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister making a statement or not? MR . EVANS : .•...• special statement to make, Mr . Speaker. The Bill provides for two Page 830 March 19th, 1962

(Mr . Evans, cont'd.) .••••• matters . One is to enable the Consolidated Fund to loan an addi tional $10 million to the Manitoba Development Fund; and the second is to provide that the rates to be charged by the Consolidated Fund on monies so loaned are to be set by the Lieutenant-Gov ernor-in-Co uncil . MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Lakeside, that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Sec ond reading of Bill No. 53 . The Honourable the Provincial Secretary. MR. EVANS presented Bill No. 53,

an Act to amend the Civil Service Act for second . reading. · Mr . Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried . MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Minister for Welfare . The Honourable the Member for Selkir k . MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if--this being Government Day and now that we have come to these resoluti ons--! wonder if I could ask you to call the adjourned debate on the propos ed resolution of the Honourable the Minister of Education which ·stands in the name of the Honour able Member for Pembina? MR.

SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Min ister of Education. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MRS. C. MORRISON (Pembina): Having taught school for a number of years, Mr. Speak er, I feel that � have first-hand knowledge of the problems that arise not only for the pupils but for teachers as well, when families with school age children move from one area to another. In our present day society our population seems to be continually growing more and more mobile and this does presenta very real problem for those families having school age childre n.

It has been said that at least one-third of the children who start their education in one place do not finish it there . Indeed it often happens, Mr . Speaker, that during the elemen tary and secondary school years, a family migrates several times. When the breadwinner comes home from the office and announces to his family that he is being transferred and they will have to move to another province in spite of the fact that this very likely means a fine promotion for him, yet the first reaction is concern for those members of the family who are in school .

And there is much dismay over the fact that the textbooks, the standards and the methods they will have to face will be very different, and if the move is being made late in the term perhaps means the children will have to spend another year in the same grade--a loss of time which is never apprec iated, and which, in some cases, may cause considerable financial hardships. Then too, Mr . Speaker, if the textbooks have to be purchased by the parents this means quite an added expense . It would s eem to me, Mr .

Speaker, that the purpose of education is the same in any country; and when we consider that a country like England with a popula tion well over 40 million has the same system of education for its entire population, it seems very unnecessary that Canada with · a population of 18 million should require a separate system of education for each of its ten pro vinces . I realize that in Can ada the area is much greater but peoples needs and proble ms are the same and in this day and age space means nothing.

Not only does this separate educational sys tem for each province present the problem for the school children , Mr. Speaker, but also for those teachers who might wish for a change and decide to spend a term in another province . After making a move they find that their methods do not fit in with the different methods in the other province, the curriculum s are different, and in order to teach in another province, they must get a permit; and in order to get a permit, they will likely have to take a refresher course to acquaint themsel ves with the methods of that particular province .

By this time they wish they had stayed where they were . I believe, Mr. Speaker, that with a more uniform curriculum across Can ada more time could be given to developing educational research on at least the basic subjects and more time to developing a thoroughly adequate curriculum . I feel, Mr .

Speaker, that a more uniform edu cational program across Ca nada would mean that when that very important segment of our soc iety, the working family , finds it is in their best interests to move to another province, the com plications would notbe,nearly so great, because for the children in school their education would not be jeopardized and it would be little different for them than a move within their own province. I believe too, Mr . Speaker, that greater uniformity in the educational system across Ca nada March 19th, 1962 Page 831

(Mrs . Morrison, cont' d.) •. .••. would create among Canadians greater unity, a mo re real sense of national citizenshi p. And so , Mr . Speaker, I do approve in principle the formation of commis sioners for the promotion of uniformity of school curricula and textbooks in Canada, and that the Minister of Education be autho rized to propose the formation of such a body to the ministers res ponsible for education in the various provinces of Canada . MR. ORLIKOW: Mr. Speaker, I move, seco nded by the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks the debate be adjourned. Mr.

Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . EVANS : Mr. Speaker, I wonder if it would suit your convenience to call the motion for going into Supply. MR . SPEAKER: Would you move the motion. MR . EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House res olve itself into a Committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Maje sty. Mr.

Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House reso lved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for St. Matt hews in the Chair . MR . CHAIRMAN: Department-- MR . JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr. Chairman, before we get going today I'd like to put my little house in order here--some of the questions that were left with me the other evening . First of all, I think I would like to explain to the Member from Selkirk when he asked me if I could get a copy of the res olution passed at the MGEA Meeting.

I understand that the first report that was made with respect to hu mane treatment--Pm not criticizing the Press I think maybe this was discusse d--how ever, these resolutions are before the Secretary at the MGEA and I assumed I've had one but the se have not been presented to a joint meeting of Cabinet and the Civil Service Commissi on to date, so I don't think it would probably be proper for me to table such a resolu tion.

However, what I was trying to do at that time in my estimates was to tell the honourable members that me mbers of the attending staff and the superintendent had taken the trpuble to send me a note with respect to the meeting.

Now while I'm on that subj ect, along and concurrently with that we spoke of--some refer ence was made by myself so I asked for it--as to the turnover of staff in our provincial institu tions and I've done some homework on thi s, and in the Annual Report--this little report made by the department--you will see on page 78 the total number of hirings and separations for the calendar year '61 at the bottom of the page .

Now this has always appeared imposing to me, but apparently has been the practice, as I indicated the other night, for some years, that is th ere's always been a heavy turnover of staff in the se institutions ., I had the se broken down and actually in the three htstitutions in 1961 the hirings in Brandon were 129 or 10 .9 a month; Selkirk 148 or 12 .4 a month, and Manitoba School l04 or 8.6 a month . Th ese hirings total 38 1. The diff er ence between the 38 1 and the 877 is the provision of summer relief and replacements when people are sick.

Such a high staff complement is actually--most of th ese hirings are for thi s temporary relief. Secondly, the number of separations totalled 326 in the three institutions last year. I inquired into the reason for the turnover in personnel, and as I indicated, it is in the female groups classed as nurses 1 aids, pupil nurses and institutional nurses I.

The main rea sons are that a goodly number of the new graduates within in their first two years employment as graduates resign to take up homem aking positions, and to seek further educational status as either RN's or nursing instructors; or to seek other employment outside of institutional life. The other great turnover is in pupil nurses who are recruited twice yearly for psychiatric nurse training.

A number of these sever the ir connections with the school within the first year and the following reasons have been given: failure to qualify in the exams, not liking the course of training, marriage, returning to school for further academic training and proving unsuited to psychiatric nursing. Nurses aids are assigned sometimes to establish vacancies in nursing pos itions until qualified staff are available through graduates from training school, in order to main tain sufficient personnel in the wards. The other question that was asked in respect to this was the staff ratio.

The ratio I have worked out, the over-all staff ratio taking the total patient load to staff, works out at 2. 5 in the Manitoba School, 2.8, at Selkirk and 3.1 at Brandon. In the St. Amant Ward it's a ratio of about Page 832 March 19th, 1962

(Mr . Johnson (Gim li), con t'd.) ••••. one to 1. 9. These are for the sicker children. I just thought I would clear that particular question if I could. The second question was the number of acres, the number of farms, the total acreage on the three institutional farms--the Honourable Member for Brokenhead--1 will give him a copy of this, but the acreage at Brandon is 2, 000; Selkirk 1, 357, Portage 75, for a total of 4, 133 acres. There are 243 cattle at Brandon, 209 at Selkirk, 160 at Portage for a total of 603 ;.2 23 hogs at Brandon, 164 at Selkirk, for a total of 387 . No hogs at Portage.

We have horses on hand which are loaned from some agency, and one of the reasons for this is that some of the in mates, a few of them , can carry out sm all duties around the premises using horses rather than heavy machinery.. There are 19 farmers at Brandon; 16 at Selkirk; 10 at Portage. I understand the farm complement has not varied much over the last ten years or for some time; these pos itions are filled through the Civil Service Comm is sion and the farmers are on a 44 hour week. And I thought I'd like--1 have a copy of this for the Member from Brokenhead.

I have some oth er copies if any other members wish copies. Here, you'd better give some more of these out- where are they? MR . CAMPBEL L: Mr. Ghairman, as long as the Minister read the figures on to the Han- sard, it wouldn •t be necessary to give the copies . ' MR . JOHNSON (Gimli): Thank you. The next question was the Honourable Member for st. George . The Member from St. George asked about the--1 told him I would give copies of the correspondence to the Pharmaceutical Association and the College of Physicians and Surgeons which I'm glad to do.

I should report to the House, I think I may have expressed this probably a little differently to what I had intended the other evening. In actual fact, what happened was that during the Royal Commis sion hearings, a statement was made by the Pharmaceutical Asso ciation with respect to the use of certain coded prescriptions and the use of drugs.

I had heard nothing of this officially but apparently it had come up about 1952, and I asked, by telephone, the Executive Director of the College to give me a report from the College of Physicians and Sur geons as to what they knew about it, and they wrote me to the effect that the episode that had occurred in '52 had been investigated at that time . Since then they had heard of no further· charges and were willing to look at any charges that may be placed before them and did not know of any coded prescription practice whieh was actually going on in the province .

They also point ed out in their letter that the present Medical Act permits a qualified medical man and veterinary graduate to dispense certain drugs . I thanked them for their letter and, in the meantime, I then received a letter--! asked the Pharmaceutical Association for a report which I received and their letter made reference to the fact that possibly coded prescription practice was continuing. I therefore felt--this letter also suggested to me that a citizen committee might be formed to look at the whole problem.

And not being able to recognize and define the actual problems I wrote letters to both the Pharmaceutical Association and the College of Physicians and Surgeons and suggested to them that they better sit down together and have a frank discussion and whether in disagreement or no, advise me in what areas there was agreement or not, in order that I may better determine whether a committee should be formed to go further. Copies of my replies, Mr. Chairman, will be placed with the Honourable Member for St. George. I think that's all the questions . I notice the member from St.

Boniface--with respect to the advancement of the registration from 27 to 20 weeks, really becomes a matter of--as I point ed out--of uniform legislation. The only difference in practice I would suggest to him is the fact that they now have to get a burial permit for the gestation under 27 weeks and down to 20 weeks which they didn't have to get before. With respect to certified death certificates I think the ans wer I gave is the proper answer.

The c� rtified death certific·ate is seldom asked for and the thing is that Vital Statistics are considered very confidential documents and if ever someone asked for a certified certificate from us, the Minister has to give approval because the cause of death may be a matter of family concern. The Member from Selkirk brought up the possibility of amending the Marriage Act to show names of witnesses; and my impression is that

section 33 (1) of the Vital Statistics Act is clear. Every certificate, it states, shall be admissible in court, in any court in the province as prima facie evidence of the facts, and my advisors tell me that before there was organ ized registration in the province, the method of witnesses was expensive, but now that they have such highly or ganized registration services etcetera, and the fact that the registration certificate is admissible March 19th, 1962 Page 833

(Mr , Jobnson, (Gimli), cont'd) •..•.•• in any court, that he thought that this was all that was really required . In wonder if •..•. is that •.... MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE (Selkirk): •••..•.•.. raising that question, the certificate isn't admissible.

My point was this, that the Court insisted -- before you could present the certifi cate, they insisted on the church certificate being presented, if available, and if there was no church certificate available, you had to present the certificate from the department, and you also had to prove who the witnesses to the marriage were, and there's no information given on the official certificate giving the names of the witnesses, Mr . JOHNSON (Gimli) : But Mr.

Chairman, in view of the fact that the Act states that the certificate from the department is enough, is that not enough to satisfy the Judge 's, Sir .. .•.• MR. HILLHOU SE: •••.• but the Judges don't . MR . LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface) : Mr . Chairman, there's an answer that I re ceived from the Honourable Minister which still isn't quite clear . I don't think the Minister understands my point . On this question of registration of stillbirths . The Minister seemed to think that I'm trying to trap him or something.

I did admit three times, and I'll admit it again, that this was a difficult thing and that I had agreed with the change in the Act, that I knew full well the rea son for this changing of the Act and I realize that it just creates a stillborn now, that while it used to be a fetus between 20 weeks to 27 weeks. But let's forget about this then. My point is this, that all stillb orn -- all stillborn now must be registed; therefore if that is re gistered the cemeteries will insist on a proper grave ; therefore the pe ople will have to go to a funeral home and it costs them up to $100.

I mean this is an important point . This is not a battle between the former administration or this one . I don't mean anything like that at all, or because there was some changes, they have created a few more stillborns, this is just the thing that ha.s brought it to my attention . But I think before the next session, anyway, that I would like to see the Honourable Minister take this into advisement and consideration and try to arrive at something where we will have the registration of the stillborn done in the hospital or by the De partment of Health as is done now anyway, and save that money to the people .

That's all I'm con cerned about. This is not a question, it's more a suggestion and I might state that Pm not worried about this Act. I think it's a good thing if it's g.oing to help with research; help medicine, I'm all for it, and I voted for it. So I can assure the Honourable Minister this is not a trap at all but ···. a suggestion. MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr .

Chairman, in the letters the Minister has just forwarded to me -- in the first sentence of the second paragraph it says: "I do not believe that any purpose would be served by the presentation of your letter to the Legisla ture ." This is the letter written to Dr •. , , .•.. from the Minister. Did this organization ask that the letter be presented to the Legis lature? MR . JOHNSON (Gimli): At that time in conversation with him when I received his letter he suggested that I make this public whenever -I wished.

I told him that it's entirely possible that I might be asked to table -- this might come up during the Legislature -- but I suggested to him before Il iad more information, I didn't think it was of no real value to the Legis lature at this time . This was just a suggestion from him that he could release it if he wished or I could release it if I wished, the letter which had arrived from their Association. I felt that until I had further clarification, this communication to me really didn't clarify the thing any more than we had orig inally known it. MR .

GUTTORMSON: Has the Minister any objection to us tabling the letter that he received from Dr •. .....•. MR . JOHNSON (Gimli) : No, I'd be glad to table it, if you want it. MR . GUTTORMSON: Fine, thanks. MR . SCHREYER: ·Mr . Chairman, one of the purposes of Comm ittee of Supply is to give members on this side a chance to suggest means of achieving economy, although we don't do that too often I suppose, but I would like to suggest to the Minister that even if this isn't a matter of great concern or interest to him , he should investigate the matter of the institutional farms .

He said that it's been about ten years since the staff ratio was altered or changed. I'd suggest to him that it could be time now to have a look at the ratio of staff to the amount of work that has to be done on these farms because it is, to me, pretty alarming or -- well it's significant to note that on a 2, 000 acre farm, half of which is pasture, leaving about a third for cultivation, that you have Page 834 March 19th, 1962

(Mr . Schreyer, cont'd). , ••• 20 people there on staff to run it. I don't !mow, but for what it's worth, I sugge-st that it's time we had a look at this with a view to achieving some economy iri operation. :MR. ARTHUR E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Re the

section OJ:! Psychiatric Services , I'd like to ask the Minister -- looking in the report I notice in regard to accidents to personnel, or to staff, that for the Selkirk Mental Hospital it seems an extraordinarily large ratio of female to male patients that were injured in the performance of their duties. Is there any special reason for this ? :MR. JOHNSON:(Giml i) : ..••. � •• who were what, Sir? :MR-. WRIGHT: Page 78 of the report, with regard to accidents to staff. :MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): No . No special report in respect to this.

I'd be glad to find out the cause in each case and let the honourable member !mow, either now or after estimates, but I don't !mow of anything specific or any hazard there that's causing •••. :MR. WRIGHT: .•..•. interested in accidents of a major nature . :MR. CHAIRMAN: As the Commi ttee rose we were considering resoluti on 49 , item 6, Commu nity Mental Health Services . That's where we are . Passed? :MR.

MOLGA T: Did I understand the Minister correctly to say that he had not received the copy of a resolution from the Manitoba Government Employees Association with regard to staff and care at the Portage Home ? :MR. JOHNSON (Gimli) : Mr . Chairm an, quite frankly , I phoned the Secretary of the MGEA the other day and he said this resolution had not been brought forward by their Association to the Cabinet as yet. I didn't think it was proper that I should table a resolution which -- it is my understanding they usually take these resolutions in their final form to a joint meeting of the Ca binet and the Commission.

Now he did advise me that in the final draft resolution the word "humane" had been deleted from the resolution -- "inhumane" I should say. :MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, the news report that was out at the time indicated that· this had been done at the meeting. It seems to me that if employees of the particular insitution concerned are the ones who proposed this, that the Minister should have followe d it up immediate ly and got a copy of the resolution because this surely is very important to him.

If .employe es within the institution feel that it isn't being properly handled then with all haste the Minister should obtain the information from them to see what the trouble is . I'd strongly urge him to get a copy of the resolution at the earliest possible time. :MR. JOHNSON (Giml i) : •..•.• made this clear . The reason I brought it up, Mr . Chair man, and said what I did on this question in the House was for the very reason the Leader of · the Opposition has suggested.

I did -- as soon as I heard of this press release I immediately con taced my officials -- the Deputy Minister got busy to find out what this was all about.

In the dis cussions of the resolution as I understand it, this charge was made and the Superintendent of the Institution wrote me and told me that the staff were quite upset, especially the Chief Attendant and others who'd been working there for many years, with this _charge, and they wanted to give me .a letter which would assure me that they didn't really believe that there was any inhumane treatment going on in that institution, and have assured me as clear ly as they could in the lette r which I read to the honourable members .

My information is that that particular word was deleted from the resolution which will be presented; and the resoluti on, as I understand it, deals largely with the staff ratio at the institution. :MR. ORLIKOW: It's one thing for the Minister to get a report from the Superintendent or the CChief Attendant -- their opinion may be the correct one or it may not be -- it may be in line with what the employees at the institution believe or it may not be . It seems to me that the ·gov ernment employees held their convention; they discussed, I presume, all the resol utions which they had before them.

They made amendments and I see no reason why the members of this committee could n't have the final resolut ion. It may be that the original resolution which was pro posed by one person, or a group of people , may have gone too far, but surely it would be of value to this House to !mow what the government employ ees , and particularly the government employ ees in those institutions feel .

Even if all they think is that the ratio of staff as compared to the total number of patients is too small, this would also be of importance and of lE lp to this committee, and it seems to me that we ought to be able to get a copy of that resolution , that it's not a secret until lt1s been presented to the Cabinet . After all it's been passed by a convention of the employees March 19th, 1962 Page 835

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd) •. .• which, as I understand it, permits the press to sit in and report the proceed ings ; and that being the case I can see no reason why we couldn't get a copy of that resolution. MR . SPEAKER: • • . • passed. MR . JOHNSON (Gimli) :· li.'Ir. Cha irman, I could table a statement by the Portage number one delegates to the .Government Employees Association to Dr . Atkinson of 25th February, which is the only communication, officially, that I have had in respect to this whole matter, if that would be agreeable . MR . CHA:rRMAN: Six passed. MR. :MOLGAT: Is that the resolution ....• MR .

JOHNSON (Gimli) : No, it makes reference to the statements made in the press and is signed by two of the delegates to the convention plus the area Vice-President, Unit President, Councillor and delegates . MR . MOLGAT: .. ..•• if the Minister would table that, Mr. Chairman . My only point was that if there are employees in the institution who feel that the institution isn't doing what it should, then surely, knowing the Minister as I do, I know his interest in the thing and he would immediately take action. What the people on this side want to know is what action was taken.

What was said originally, in the first place -- was the news report correct -- and if there is a basis for the charge that was made, then let's get it settled. MR . JOHNSON (Gimli) : .••••.•. Mr . Chairman, can rest assured that I want to make absolutely certain that if that was said at that convention, if such inhumane practices were occurring, I wanted assurance from my staff whether that was happening or not, and when I made _my enquiries they apparently disturbed meml:ers of my staff at Portage la Prairie who have sent this letter in to me which I'd be glad to share with the committee. MR .

MOLGAT: I think it would be good if the Minister would table that •.•.••.. MR . JOHNSON (Gimli) : . • . • • . through the committee that there is no such inhumane practices going on in. our Portage institution. MR. MOLGAT: We would also be interested in one thing further, of course --. is that the employee or employees who made the statement at the convention, will not be discriminated against or any action taken against them like the Member from Fisher was reading the other day in his letter. MR . JOHNSON (Gimli) : I assure the committee that the civil servants in this Department have every freedom pos sible.

MR. PAUL LEY: Mr . Cha irman, on item six, I must apologize because of the fact that I wasn't here on Thursday evening and I'm wondering on what item the discussion is taking place now . I would suggest that it's an item prior to number six. I don't know if the Minister intended to make a statement in respect of item six or whether he's done it. I can't find any record as to any general statement in respect of item number six. It appears to me that this is one of the very important items dealing with psychiatric services . I note there there is . considerable additional monies to be expended in this

section and if the Minister hasn't, I would like to hear a statement from him as to these additional expenditures and what they intend to do in respect of community m ental services . MR . CHAIRMAN: .•• .•.•.. if the Minister has anything to add to it. We had practic ally completed it when we came to the adjournment . MR . JOHNSON : (Gimli) : •. ..•.• I like to talk about this program . I pointed out to the committee when the Leader of the NDP wasn't here that we have added another team this year to the communi ty mental health program , which you will see reflected in the estimates .

That includes medical personnel, psychologists, social workers and increased supplies . This "supplies" item there is largely drugs for maintaining these people in the community, and other expenses - travel. The Broadway Home has the same number of people as last year and they're keeping track of more boys at the present time .

I think the honourable member is familiar with the , operation of Broadway Home where we strengthened that -- I think it was last year -- we have the three social workers, the house mother and so on, and if you recall with the implemen tation of the 40-hour week we had increased personnel. They're continuing to do a good job supervising some boys at a farm outside Winnipeg here, and there are some girls who are coming back and forth. The Deputy Minister of Health and Welfare serve on that advisory committee. The grant Page 836 March 19th, 1962

(Mr. Johnson (Gimli) , cont'd) ••.. for training of mentally retarded outside of provincial insti tutions -- as you know, a little over a year ago we inc reased the grant -- was it, to $20.0 0 if a child attends a half day or 85% of the half days we consider that a full grant, and the number of children under that of course increases yearly. I will be bringing in a small supp lementary bill. If you note, last year we passed $57 ,2 00 and then about June the Association came in -- they were very anxious to get going with a day centre , to which they requested a grant of $20. 00 per child.

We concurred in that because we wanted to see it go forward, so really that went up from 57 to 77 and this year they're planning on taking up to lOO children in the day centre. In their brief they mention pos sibly extending the children going to a day centre below six years of age and over .21, but I think we all agreed at a meeting that it was better to let them take 100 children of all ages -- we didn't want to stipulate between a five and a six year old or an 18 and a 21 year old, dependent on the individual circumstance, and suggested they go up to 100 this year.

So about $80, 000 of that $106,00 0 is for the ma intenance of children in the day centres at $20 .0 0 a half day and $40.0 0 a full day. These are the many schools , as you know, throughout the province where we help to ma intain these children; and then the grant to assist them with the increased activity at the day centre . They have quite a centre going in the. day facility in St. James, and I believe Steinbach1s increasing their day centre activities . Then the grant to the Child Guidance Clinic is a yearly grant, and we of course, I think, pay for all the psychiatric salaries at the Child Guidance Clinic .

This grant to the -- at Sept ember '61, there's establishment of 53 people : 2 psychiat rists, 11 psycholog ists, 20 social workers, 4 reading therapi sts. The approximate cost of operating the Clinic will be $110, 000 and the provin cial share of the oper ating cost of the Clinic -- that's what this $35, 000 is -- we share that with the City as you recall . The balance of course is payable out of the Federal Health grants -- the balance of all those sa laries I mentioned .come out of our health grant appropriation in the Health Depart ment.

This is a special vote that we have to make because the federal pe ople you remember, don't approve more than 70% of any cost toward salarie s. We have to make up the rest. We can get so much out of gran ts. The $343, 000 is made up of the $320, 000 it will take this year to increase the St. Am ant Ward from 84 to 110 at $8 . 00 per child per day . In addition to that we have now 197 children being maintained in total outside of institutions where we give on a needs basis extra assi stance to parents with mental defectives at home . I have a list of the individuals here; there are 96 cases whom we're assis ting.

Quite a few of th ese, probably a little over half of them we're able to assist under the Social Allowances Act and the others are in this appropriation . If we have a child who is mentally deficient who is being ma intained in his own home or in a care-facility other than St.

Am ant -- there are a few in some other facilities; if these peo ple are in receipt of social allowance of if there's the opportunity to utilize the Social Allowances Act for this. pur pose, we place these -children, they're paid out of the welfare app ropriation in order to gain 50% reimbursement . 'The ones that we can't sneak throtigh, and that's about half of these cases , we don't· place on welfare -- I. shouldn't use the words sneak through-- we pay for directly out of the health ap propria tion.

And these sums vary from, for instance , around $25 to $40 a month; - in some cases we're paying $75.0 0 a month for a boy on special placem ent where there's pos sibly hop e of rehabilitating him into some form of employment . We can get that in some cases -- we might be able to utilize a vocational training agreement more for that in the future. We're going to try.

Some of them in the Children's Aid Societies of eas tern, western and central Manitoba, we pay around $2 . 00 a day for the children they' have placed in foster situations who qualify, and every one of these cases must be screened by the provincial psy chiatrist as to mental retardation and the degree of it. Our total estimate in this figure here in 1958 was $60, 000; it's now $343, 000 .0 0. You can see the increase from last year of $175, 000.0 0. • • • • • • . • • continued on next page March 19th, 1962 Page 837

MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, at the risk of adding any impetus to a newspaper

article that suggested that I may be defecting across the way, may I compliment the government on its extension to the St. Am ant Ward in my constituency. I indicated in a previous debate that this was one of the things that was dear to my heart when I first became a member of this Legisla ture, and I comme nd them for their activities in this very important field. I would like to hear from the Minister, though, in connection with the amount of grant to the Child Guidance Clinic of $35, 00 0. 00. I think this is the

section that I can properly raise this point. It seems to me that the Child Guidance Clinic are doing a tremendous job. As I understand it, this $35, 000 simply means a contribution of the government to the already esta blished Child Guidance Clinic. I would like to draw to the attention of the Minister that, in the opinion of many, the services of the likes of the Child Guidance Clinics are not available across Manitoba at the present time. It seems to me that this is an area that requires expansion.

I'm informed that in many cases in our rural areas , and I think that this is what the purpose of this clinic is, at least to some degree, that it is not until the child arrives at school at the age of six that there is any disclosure of retardedness of the child or mental handicap or some physio logical defect in the child itself. Now I appreciate the fact that we have throughout the province health clinics and the likes of that, but it does seem to me that here is a field which requires a considerable amount of expansion on behalf of the Department of Health and the services to the people of Manitoba.

I've been informed on many occasi ons that when a child arrives at school at the age of six, that because of the lack of any qualified personnel to physically analyze the individuals that they are considered as -- I use the term very loosely -- the dumb individuals. Quite fre quently itis only a handicap of hearing, a handicap of sight or some other similar handicap that, if caught earlier or if adjusted at the particular time, could assist that particular child in its schooling.

It seems to me that it's unfortunate that in too many cases it is not until the child reaches the ages of nine and ten and eleven and upwards that it is disclosed that it is a physical handicap to the child rather than mental. In the meantime , the progress of the child in its schooling is arrested. It's my understanding that in the urban areas , and particularly in the City of Winnipeg, this can be diagnosed at a. rather early age; but the same facilities are not available in the rural areas or, at least, it is not caught early enough. l!m wondering if the Minister, and I trust and hope, Mr.

Chairman, that I'm on the right item to raise this particular question, but I wonder if the Minister could give us any indication as to where -- or any consideration that they are giving to an extension of these services into this field. From the numerous requests made to me from various areas of the province, it seems to me that this is a problem of some considerable magnitude that possibly the depart ment should be laying greater emphasis to. I wonder if the Minister would care to comment on the problem that I have raised. MR . JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr.

Chairman, I would like to answer this question because I never had the opportunity -- and at the risk of being as long-winded as the Leader of the NDP - it gives me the opening to tell. the com mittee of some very interesting developments. The Child Guidance Clinic has grown just by leaps and bounds since it was opened a couple of years ago, as you can see from the large number of psychologists and social workers .

I would point out that the type of service they give , for example in psychology, they saw 1, 500 new cases and giving psychology examinations; reading instruction, 223 ; speech and hearing, 660 ; visiting teacher, 1, 828 ; and psychiatry, 80. Their case load, new cases, were 4, 000. Their previous known problems in these areas amounted to 1, 700 and they have a total of 6, 105 procedures going on. Now this division is through health grants and through this $3 5, 000 where we share one-third in the total operating expense of this section.

The Leader of the CCF has made re ference to the fact that very often these children aren:1t:picked up, and I think this is the point you were making, before they get to school. Pereniil.ll;y.;, the· Member for Inkster has a resolu tion on retarded children and pre-school deaf and so· on: a'S' possibly being the cause of slow learners once they get into the school. A great deal of study has gone into this and !'.have the concurrence of the Society to tell you just what has d.eveloped in the past year.

The Rehabilitation Agency, the Society for Crip pled Children and Adults, have been very anxious for some time to develop a school for the handicapped child, a pre-school development centre. They had visualized this centre much Page 838 March 19th, 1962

(Mr . Johnson, (Gimli), cont'd.) ....• along the lines as visualized by the Child Guidance, but primarily concerned with pre-school deaf and with cerebral spastic children. It was also my concern, however, that we do not duplicate the rehabilitation facilities we're creating at the Rehab Hospital which these children would be able to utilize, where there will be audiometer testing and so on and where there will be the physiotherapy and other skills there .

Also, we are most concerned that there be not any duplication of psychiatric services that might be rendered say through the Pre-school Development Psychiatric Clinic at the Children's Hospital. So very fortunately, we have been able to work with the Society, the Children's Hospital and the Rehab Hospital towards creating the type of facility in Greater Winnipeg for the handicapped pre-school child . .

In that, we have got an option at last on some land across from the Rehab Hospital where we would be able to create a small facility to accom modate -- they estimate about 50 children to start with anyway -- and where we wouldn't have to duplicate rehabilitation and psychiatric skills which are built in across the street. But it gives a non-hospital setting and orientated at getting some help to these children. So the honourable member has brought up a very good point and I think this is a very good start in Manitoba.

I would point out that the Kinsmen Club are most anxious to play a large role in this and the Society would operate it. The Kinsmen Club has collected a substan tial sum of money to assist the Society and to get this built. I think they probably will cover the cost of the building, I believe, or they have a large portion of it on hand, so this was the reason the Society wanted to get on with it.

I think this is an example of -- and I would pay my respects to the Society and to the Sanatorium Board and to the Board of the Children's Hospital for the tremendous co-operation we got in these three areas , where we do achieve the best in what we are after , and not unnecessary duplication of services . So their start has been made below. No. 2. In rural areas , the Child Guidance Clinic at Brandon has operated for some time and I believe is going forward. I've had some recent commu nications on that but I just can't recall the details.

However, I do want to say so mething, possibly at the risk of -- without being too critical in any way -- but my own feeling is that we're better to extend as we are , · through our_ hospitals or the com munity mental health services, who can act as good assess ment centres in travelling to the various parts of the province in making the initial assessment for all agencies.

I think we have to co-operate with the voluntary agencies such as the Associa tion for Retarded Children, the Society for Crippled Children and Adults who, as you know, now send out travelling teams to different parts of the province to examine children periodically throughout the year . I think as we extend com munity mental health services to rural Manitoba, we will be a resource in this area of pre-schoolers and schoolers. With respect to the type of child guidance activity, I think it is extremely worthwhile.

I think that the development of a pre-school centre for handicapped children may help a great deal in earlier recognition and we would hope, in time, relieve the Guidance Clinic of much of its present load. I think as these things go forward, we certainly do have to expand within our resources and ability to do so . There's one area here that bothers me a little bit and I don't think we have resolved this , and discussions with the Associ ation for Retarded Children either, the availability of say the pre-handicapped school centre and the Child Guidance Clinic and so on to children outside of Winnipeg.

Are we going to create large institutions to house these children during their treatment or, because our concept in adult psychiatry is to do the opposite, to tear down the large residential institutions. This is a problem that we have discussed at length -- I have -- with the Asso ciation for Retarded Children. I personally feel that in the future we shouldn't create large institutions of any kind to house these children. It would be better to work on hostel arrangements to permit people to come in and have their children at tend these things first.

I would like to see them , in other words, assessed at the local level. I would like to see them then be able to avail themselves of these facilities but, as you say, the present centre is bulging with the work it has in Greater Winnipeg and the suburbs of Greater Winnipeg. I think a facility like this at Brandon would be another step forward at the present time. These very hard core problems that resolve with the "Association for Retarded Children and the Society for Crippled Children who are the agents , the organizations ca rrying forward large parts of this program in the rural ar eas.

I can't give you an exact blueprint of the future , however, at this time because there are some very difficult problems to be resolved here. March 19th, 1962 Page 839

MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the Minister for his statement. I agree with him that in the larger areas such as the Greater Winnipeg area and the Brandon area that there are facilities of this nature , and I also appreciate the fact that periodically, or where they know of cases , the Society for the Retarded Children do go out into the country. But it seems to me that there is no organized approach at the present time. I think the Minis ter indicated this and I .think he was quite frank when he said that there isn't a blueprint at the present time for overco ming this problem.

I think it's a step in the right direction, Mr. Chair man, when a Minister of Health recognizes that it is a problem . Now I would like to offer, for what it is worth, a suggestion or two to my honourable friend. I mentioned the fact that, generally speaking, a retarded child is not revealed as being a re tarded child until such time as it reaches school and this , in itself, is a problem.

It could be that a travelling psychiatrist may attend the various health clinics in the province which are fairly widespread, and also the -- and what is it they call them -- Baby Ca re Centres - Pardon? -- Day Ca re Centres -- and then be able to ascertain closer at hand the probabilities of mental deficiency or other physical deficiency that is likely to retard the child in progress at school. Now then, we have set up here in the Province of Manitoba, in most of the areas , our larger school divisions.

Now then, I'm wondering whether or not it would not be possible to utilize some of the facilities in the larger high schools where a teacher -- and I noted the other day I believe that there was still about a thousand one-room schools in the province of Manitoba -- that where a teacher suspects a problem of this nature, that these children may be referred to a centre within the area for proper diagnosis and care -- or at least guidance. Now I agree with the Honourable the Minister of Health that the trend, and it is a proper trend insofar as psychiatric treatment is concerned, is away from the large centres.

I'm not suggest ing that all of the children say, that are discovered, should come in to the Greater Winnipeg or the Brandon or Selkirk are a, but I am suggesting that it is a problem; and the big problem, to me, appears to be early diagnosis of this child. That's why I suggest to him that maybe through the facilities of the larger school areas , through the facilities of the schools, the Baby Care Centres and the Health Centres, that these problems may be discovered long before the child actually reaches the school age .

That, to me, seems to be the problem. · It seems to me from information that is being forwarded to me, that in many cases a parent really isn't aware of the situation of the child until such time as they hit school, and then when they do get to school, the problem becomes evident. It seems to me that where we have here in the Greater Winnipeg area, and generally the urban areas throughout the whole province , a considerable amount of facilities for diagnosis and early discovery, that here is an area insofar as child guidance is concerned and psychiatric treatment, that the government could well expand.

I offer, as a suggestion, that possibly through the administration of the larger school areas -- and it may not be worthwhile, . this suggestion -- but it may be an area in which some of the corrective treatment can be made .

For instance, our high schools, under the secondary schools division system, only deal with children in the secondary grades and up- wards. · Now I would suggest that in the primary grades , within the school division itself, that any individual school certainly could not have a teacher there qualified to look after a retarded child; but I would likewise suggest that, within the boundaries of a school division, a special class for retarded children under the age of those who go to the secondary schools may be pro vided.

In that way, then the service may be extended at least to all of the school division areas in the Province of Manitoba. If we simply leave it as it is , apparently at the present time, in the primary grade, the child is just, shall I say, suffered in the classroom.

If these children were brought together -- this would not mean centralization in the usual concept of centraliza tion -- but if the children were provided with the facilities in the rural areas within the boun dary say of our present school districts, and provision was made -- and I'd suggest that this wouldn't be a responsibility of the school division as such, because of course they're responsible for the higher levels of education -- but here may be an opportunity for provision of the mentally retarded children within a larger area and yet it would still make it on a commu nity basis.

Our school divisions of course, as the Minister knows, have made provision for bus travel through out pretty well all of their areas , and in this way the child who may be retarded in a particular area could be brought in to a centralized area within the district itself for special training. In Page 840 March 19th ; 1962

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd. ) . • • • • that way, I think, Mr. Chairman, that the facilities that are the privilege of those of us in the Greater Winnipeg area may be extended to those in the rural area. I think that this would go a long way to help solving some of the problems that the Minis ter may have in this very important field. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr.

Chairman, while we're still on Item (6), I gathered from what the Minister said that the grants for the training of mentally retarded children out side provincial institutions, which has been increased from $206,0 00 , does not tre an that the grants per child have increased but rather that the enrollment has increased. Am I correct in that? Further,. it seems that the classes that we have in the rural parts have difficulty in getting along. Some have difficulties for reasons other than the next one. I would like to know what .the government's policy is in regard to capital grants.

Are any capital grants made available to these associations that look after the retarded? We have groups in our particular area back home , and one of these groups has now acquired their own school. They've been canvassing the businesses in town; they've canvass.ed in the rural areas . People are willingly participating and making it possible for these classes to get ahead. They're beyond what the government gives in grants . They're completely dependent on the charity and the gifts that are made to them in the com munity.

Another matter which I feel is important, and which has created difficulty in smaller and rural areas, is, who is responsible for declar ing a child retarded when they are in school ? I think this has resulted in proble ms . Is it the responsibility of the teacher to declare them as such and that tlie School Board will then not allow them to attend school, or has the Inspector got the responsibility in this respect? I think these matters need clarification so that these people will then know what the score is, and they will try and have their children attend classes for these further retarded children. MR.

ORUKOW: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister just one question. When he discussed the matter of mental health he announced that the government was going to encourage the Winnipeg -- I think that's the words he used -- encourage the Winnipeg General Hospital to establish a 150-bed unit for people who are acutely mentally ill. I looked at this list of pro jects which we got from the Minister and maybe I just don't know where to read it.

I don't know whether it's under Winnipeg General Hospital, an extension to provide 160 additional beds in 1966-67; or on the next page, psychiatric facilities attached to General Hospital, various loca tions , 163-64. Can the Minister tell us when he hopes that that 150-bed unit will begin? MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr. Chairman, with respect to the last ques tion first, I just hope and pray we can get on with that immediately -- the planning. Number two, the Member for Rhineland -- the $106, 000 , as I indicated, is up largely because there is greater enroll ment.

The grants are still the $20 .0 0 per half-day and if the child attends 85% of the time he gets a full grant for ten months of the year. It also includes the expansion in the last year into a grant of $20. 00 per student who registers at a day centre. This is the large increase there. As I said, we are budgeting for up to 100 in the day centres now. There are 48 I believe at the present time attending day centre classes from these people. At the present time, for the train able retarded that you are referring to, I know we have not developed a capital grant program .

The Kinsmen Club have largely in the various com munities been carrying this to date. We must always keep in mind that 10 years ago we had nothing going in this field and certainly the Asso ciation for Retarded Children and Adults have done a tremendous job. I would like to point out to him who is responsible for declaring a child retarded or in a certain category. This is something that only an expert should give an opinion.on. If I have a child, I want to be sure the opinion I'm getting is the best.

In all cases where grants are given to private institutions, the provincial psychiatrist must put it in writing to us that the child is in a certain category. I would also point out to you that just ten years ago, to the average chap practising in rural Manitoba who ran across a case of this nature, hope or under standing was a fraction of what it is today. Secondly -- an acceptance of these children. Tre mendous strides have gone forward and there are going to be much bigger strides in the future. In those days you had no recourse to expert opinion in the com munity.

For the Leader of the NDP, I'd like to recall since he was out of the House, the other day I pointed out how, for example em anating out of Brandon and Selkirk with our Com munity March 19th, 1962 Page 841

(Mr. Johnson (Gimli) , cont1d. ) ..... Mental Health teams, for instance in the Selkirk area the psychiatric team wrote every physician prac tising in the Inter lake and in Eastern Manitoba and said: "If we can be of service to you, we're here" -- and they're going around. Through our health units we can have these children referred by the public health nurses , by the social workers , etcetera, and when the team comes around on their assessment, these assess ments can be made . Many of these cases I would suggest you divide into the educable and the trainable, with no strict rules in between.

I think initially we must develop, for instance the pre-school handicapped centre; we must develop sheltered workshops as pilot projects and see how we get along with them. Certainly there are going to be children assessed in the rural areas who are going to have to be brought in for assessment say at the Rehab Hospital, for assessment at the psychiatric level at the Children's . Then, through our community mental health teams, we would hope to carry as many as we could in the commu nity.

This whole area is under con tinuous review and I would hope that in the years to come that we can tell a better story every year for the exceptional children. MR. CHAIRMAN: We have given a lot of time to this . We have covered it very thoroughly and I do hope we'll make progress quickly, because we haven't completed psychiatric services when we pass this item. We left Item (4) open and that has to come into the picture yet. MR. M. A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr . Chairman, it's very unfortunate that any time I get up after being silent here for weeks, the remark comes always from the Chairman: "Let's go ahead.

" All afternoon and the last four or five days I haven't said a word. I haven't opened my mouth. Everybody talked for half a dozen times. The moment I get up there is criticism. Well, I'll obey your order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item (6) -- pass ? MR. PAULLEY: No, let the Honourable Member for lnkster speak. MR. CHAIRMAN: Let the member speak? MR. PAULLEY: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GRAY: If you think there's no discrimination. MR. MOLGA T: No, there's no discrimination. MR. GRAY: You say there's no discrimination. Okay, I'll take your word for it.

There was some discussion this afternoon, an interesting discussion, about discovering children who are mentally -- not altogether well -- to detect the disease before they come to school. I really don't know whether even the school teacher or the medical men at the schools can, and have the time, to detect a mentally disturbed child in the first year or two at school. Now what I would suggest -- a crazy idea -- and it may help. Why not have ·som eone who is a specially trained psychiatrist and a child psychologist publish a little brochure -::-one or a few -- for the mo'thers at home.

Firstly, urge them while the child is young, to spend less time socially; play less cards ; and run less to the hairdressers; and look for an hour or two specially spent with the child. I'm quite serious about it. I think this is the only way and the best way for a mother to detect, while the child is young, whether there is any disturbance. If there is, perhaps the remedy can be applied immediately and save the child's future . . Then the next thing is, which has to do with the Department of Education, cut down the attendance of the school population.

In other words, less children in a classroom so the teacher, with a little bit of direction from the Health Department, can also give some individual attention to the child. You must not forget, a child who is not properly healthy could become a tremendous expense in the future to the state; and with a little bit of expense now, perhaps the retarded child, or the prospective retarded child can be saved. So many laymen discuss medical sub jects, and I'm taking the liberty of suggesting my two cents worth to you, Sir. MR. MOLGA T: Mr .

Chairman, if I may, a specific question to the Minister with regard, to the boys taken out of the Portage Home . I be lieve they're taken here to the Broadway Home, are they not, and then put out in jobs ? That is the policy now? Well, my question is this, Mr. Chairman. ·Let us assume that a boy comes out of the Portage Home and finds employment and that the employer is prepared to take this youngster on for a reasonable rate of pay, not the normal rate of pay under the Labour Department but a pay that nevertheless the boy could get along on his own, but isn't prepared to guarantee him employment for full time.

Will the Page 842 March 19th, 1962

(Mr. Molgat, cont1 d. ) .•... government be prepared to take him back again at a later date as a ward of the government should he become unemployed? Did the Minister follow the question? MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): A boy placed in employment under the over-all watchful eye of of the social worder from Broadway Home placed in the commu nity -- Oh yes, these people need a lot of continuing support in the commu nity and it's the philosphy of the staff to follow them. I would inform the commi ttee that I'm amazed at some of the results. I think we've got to go further to get these children.

One little boy working in the laundry at Portage for a few years has been placed succes sfully on his own, living alone in Winnipeg now. The doors of the Broadway Home are always open to him for socialization or to come and see, and we make it a point to· keep in touch with these children. MR. MOLGAT: I think this is of importance to the em ployers, Mr. Chairman. I think there are a lot of em ployers who would be prepared to take some of these youngsters on, but once they take them they feel that they have accepted a responsibility.

If they cease to be wards of the government by reason of becoming employed, then the employer might feel that he ac cepts a long term responsibility which he may not be able to do. If they could have the assur ance that if they take them on at a living wage that the person concerned would no longer be directly a ward of the government and would be on his own, but should he become at a later date unemployed be able to return again, I think it would help out the youngsters involved. They would feel that they are actually on their own.

I think this to many of them is an impor tant factor and similarly the employers would be more readily available for cases of this sort. MR. CHAffiMAN: Item (6) -- passed. Now we revert to Item (4) which was left open. Manitoba School for Mentally Defective Persons . Item (4) -- passed. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, the Minister will of course be giving us the information he said earlier that he would? MR. CHAffiMAN: Health Division. (

b) Health Services.

(1) Administration -- passed, (2) -- pass? MR. ffiLLHOUSE: Mr. Chairman- - No. (2) . Mr. Chairman, I would like to speak on this Environmental Sanitation. As everyone here knows, I'm neither a chemist nor a sanit:iry engineer, and perhaps when speaking on this subject I'm forgetting about the old adage that "Fools go where angels fear to tread. " But I feel that this is a very important subject. I feel that the pollution of our rivers and streams is one of the greatest health sanitation problems with which we are confronted today.

I can't see any immediate solution to that problem and I realize full well that it's going to be a long-range program which is going to cost many millions of dollars. Now when the Metropolitan Corporation of Greater Winnipeg was incorporated by act of this Legislature, the responsibility was vested in that Corporation for looking after the collection and disposal of waste within the boundary of the Corporation and the control of pollution in the rivers passing through that area but extending beyond the boundaries of that area. South on the ·R ed River they extended as far as Ste.

Agathe; north on the Red River they extended as far as Lockport; and west on the Assi niboine River they extended as far as Headingley. Before the formation of the Metropolitan Corporation of Greater Winnipeg, the Greater Winnipeg Sanitary District had a comprehensive investigation survey and assessment of pollution problems made by two consulting firms of sanitary engineers.

I understand that the over-all cost of implemen ting the recommen dations made by these sanitary engineers will be in the neighbourhood of $35 to $40 million, and that it will take several years before the work can be accomplished, even if it is started now. Now I feel, Mr. Chairman, that imposing the total cost on Metropolitan Winnipeg for these works that have to be done to implement the report of the sanitary engineers is neither fair, just, nor equitable; and I give the following reasons for my statement.

In the first place , the Metropolitan Corporation of Greater Winnipeg has been invested with the responsi bility of looking after the pollution of the Assi niboine and Red Rivers within the areas that! have designated. Now a large amount of the pollution in the Red River arises in the United States, and a great deal of the present pollution in the Red River resulted from policies in the past over which Metropolitan Winnipeg had no control or no jurisdiction.

Another reason which I give is this, that one source of pollution, and perhaps the most dangerous source of pollution with which we are confronted today, is that which is caused by synthetic detergents. The March 19th, 1962 Page 843

(Mr. Hillhouse, cont'd. ) ..... Metropolitan Corporation of Greater Winnipeg, although it is invested with the control of pollution, can exercise no control whatsoever against the use of these detergents. Now for these reasons I feel that part of the cost of the sanitation works that have to be done in order to cure pollution in the Red and Ass iniboine Rivers should be borne by the Province of Manitoba, the Government of Canada and Metropolitan Winnipeg. When the sewage disposal plant was constructed in Old Kildonan, that was a joint project of the three levels of government.

Now why it was a joint project on that occasion, I don't know the reasons , but I presume that one of the reasons was that they were dealing with an inter national waterway. Now I further feel, Mr. Chairman, that since it's going to take from three to five years to implement, by appropriate works, the recommendations of these two firms of sanitary en gineers, that some immediate steps should be taken in order to flush the Red River. Now there are several ways by which that can be done: by the construction of the Shellmouth dam or the Holland dam or by diversion from Lake Manitoba.

I realize that the first two methods are going to be rather costly, but at the same time, on the basis of a conservation measure as well as a health measure , I think the cost would be jus tified. Now I have to speak to this committee, Mr. Chairman, as member for Selkirk, because within the Constituency of Selkirk is Lockport, and Lockport has been suffering an intolerable situation which amounts , in my opinion, to a public nuisance of the most offensive type . I refer specifically to the terrible odour that exists at Lockport during several months of the year.

I also refer specifically to the amount of foam which gathers in the river there at the locks and, on some occasions , that foam has even got as high lj.S the deck of the bridge and has been blowing on the windshields of passing motorists. Now I'd like to refer to a document which was prepared by the Department of Health. The title of the document is : "E valuation of River Pollution in the Greater Winnipeg Area.

" This was submitted to the Department of Health by its Engineering and Sanitation Branch, and on Page 18 we find this : "Generally speaking, the volume of water flowing in any stream and the amount of oxygen contained in that water is a measure of the capacity of that stream to as similate and purify the sewage which may be discharged into it. If the quantity of sewage is not too great or the sewage too strong, it will be purified and no nuisance will be created.

However, if the character of the sewage is very strong, or if the quantity is greater than the diluting ability of the water ih to which it is emptied, then nuisance results and fish and fauna cannot survive." This has occurred in the Red River downstream from the outfall and has given disastrous results. On October 6th, 7th and 8th, 196 0, there was a large fish kiU in the Lockport area. 13 miles down from tre outfall. The fish kill was investigated by A. B.

Sparling, Provincial Sanitary Control Commissi on Engineer, and his report is as follows : -- now I don't intend to read all· of his report but I wish to read the first part of it -- he says: "On October 8th, 1960, Mr. Kooyman of the Fisheries Branch and I went to Lockport to check a reported fish kill on the Red River. We arrived at 6 a. m. in order to precede any sunlight action on the waters and found in the lock area many fish either dead or in distress .

Oxygen sam ples were taken and the water was found to be devoid of oxygen from the dam upstream to Kildonan Canoe Club, but 8. 5 p. t. m. was detected at the Bergen cut-off. Below the dam at Lockport, 7. 1 p. t. m. of oxygen was detected. ABOD tests at the lock area revealed a demand of 10 p. t. m. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the point that I wish to make is. this , that unless s.omething is done to inject more oxygen into the Red River we are not only going to continue a nuis.ance which is an intolerable nuisance, which is as.king too much of the people of that area to bear, but we're also going to completely destroy one of the best fishing grounds in Manitoba. Furthermore, we're going to put a large number of people out of work in that area, people whose lives for generations have been spent providing fishing boats and bait for fishermen and anglers from Winnipeg. Now· I feel, Mr.

Chairman, that this is a matter which demands immediate atten tion. I don't know how the government is going to create more oxygen in that river, but more oxygen must be created if the fish life there is to survive and if the people down there are go ing to be given an even break, which they are not getting. Now another matter which I mentioned was. the indiscriminate use of what I'm referring to as "hard detergents", and I designate a "hard detergent" as a detergent which will not Page 844 March 19th, 1962

(Mr . Hillhouse, cont'd .) ..••. biologically decompose in a water solution or with oxygen. Now the effect of the use of detergents has been studied in the United States; it has been studied in the United States; it has been studied in Great Britain; and it has also been studied in Germany. Germany tries to get the manufacturersof detergents to co-operate with the government in manufacturing a detergent which would be soluble in water; a detergent which would be amenable to the processes of purification, which is part of the scheme of any sewage disposal plan.

The manufacturers in Germany would not co-operate with the government and, as a result of that, there is now before the Bundestag in Germany a bill to prohibit the manu facturing use of hard detergents in that country. I would like .to read from Page 871 of the Journal -- Water Pollution Control Federation, which deals with this German Bill. -- No, 881, I'm sorry. This

article reads: "Information recently was received relative to new legislation in Germany aimed at the control of detergent manufacture, distribution and use. The information is summa rized as follows: A bill has been introduced in the German Parliament Bundestag which would make it unlawful to manu facture and/or distribute or use certain detergents or detergent compos itions co ntaining such surface active co mpounds as addends to washing. laundering or cleaning compositions or pro ducts .

If such substances do not meet prescribed standards with respect to either their bio degradability or decompos ition in water, only permissi ble for uses as synthetic detergents would be substances that can be subjected to bio logical degradation in water purification plants , in natural waters and/or in the soi l. " Now this

article goes on to show what effect detergents have had on the water supply in Germany; what effect dete

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-5-33
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 5th hansardpdf 33.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ccab7f56a48f998f9dc960a781209933dde71e3f

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).