Manitoba Hansard — 23 November 1989 (Sitting 77, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-77

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, November 23, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct Honourable Mem bers' attention to the gal lery where we have from the Niverville Elementary School sixty Grade 5 students. They are under the direction of Ma ry Wiens. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Min ister of Highways and Transportation (Mr . Al bert Driedger). On behalf of all Honourable Mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Decentra lization Policy Transfer Notice Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): My question is for the Premier (Mr . Filmon). Mr. Speaker, there is not a single Member in this House who is not sup portive of a decentralization polic y. We all know that too much decision-making is in the City of Winnipeg and not enough in our rural communities, but the heavy -handed and insensitive approach that this Government has taken has sent shock waves throughout the Civil Service of Manitoba.

Eigh ty-five hundr ed Winnipeggers and their families are now wondering where they are going to be living next year because of this Government's uncaring and callous appr oach. Why has this Premier and this Government left 8,500 Winnipeggers and their families waiting in the dark over the Christmas period into 1990? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, this is such nonsense that-you know you- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Filmon: Mr . Speaker , first, here we have the Liberal Party trying to do all things for all people, trying to be all things to all people on both sides of the issue.

They are the ones who said prior to the last election that they agreed with decentraliza tion. They are the ones who have asked questions. They have asked questions about when we were going to decentralize. Their Leader sent out a communique very recently saying, why are we taking so much time? The fact of the matter is that we have made a commitment to decentralization in this province. We are going to move services outside the City of Winnipeg close to the people.

We are going to serve the people better by making those services provided for them in areas throughout this province, and we are going to do it in a caring way by consulting with the people before they are asked to move their positions 3161 and make sure that they are involved in the entire process. Mana gement levels of Government and indeed civil servants will be treated in a caring way and treated in a way tha t respects their rights and their resp onsibili ties as civil servants. That is why, Mr . Speaker, we are not making blanket announcements outside in other areas of the province.

That is why we are not going to argue here with the Opposition in this Leg islature. We are going to deal with the people who are involved, the civil servants thems elves, to make sure that this is done in a planned and orderly fashion- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Carr: If the Premier intends to be caring, Mr. Speaker, he is off to a brutal start and you can ask 8,500 Winnipeggers about that. Who are the 500 Winnipeggers who are going to be moved? What departments do they work for? What jobs are they?

Why will the Premier not tell them now who they are so that the other 8,000 Winnipeggers will not have to worry about where they are going to live a year from now? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, to begin with, the task force about decentralization was announc ed in the Throne speech. The task force was appointed on June 6 by the Minister of Rural Deve lopment (Mr . Penner) to identity potential candida tes, sections of Government for being decentralized outside the City of Winnipeg.

They had extensive consultations throughout with management people in Go ver nment to offer up suggestions as to what would be appropriate candidate areas. So the management level of the public service has been totally involved.

In terms of the host commun ities, the task force received presentations from countless municipal jurisdictions throughout the province and met with every single one that requested a mee ting with the task force to see what they had to offer, to get their ideas about what might be appropriate services to deliver in northern Manitoba, in central Manitoba, in western Manitoba, in southern Ma nitoba, throughout this province, Mr. Speaker.

Under all those circumstances we wanted to ensure it was well-planned and that it would take place over a period of time so that any adjustments that would have to be made throughout the Civil Service and involving people would be made carefully and with consideration and in the best possible manner. Tabling Request *

(1335) Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speak er, that is not what thousands of civil servants are saying in Winnipeg

Thursday, November 23, 1989 tod ay. Our phones have been ringing off the hook this morning with nervous public servants in the city, and the Premier is talking about a careful plan. Where is the plan? What were the criteria that were used to make these decisions? Is he prepared to table that in the House today? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr . Speaker, let us begin by now saying that we have on the record where the Liberal Party is. They are opposed to decentralization of Government services. They are opposed to dealing in a fair and consider ate manner with public servants.

They want to have Government from on high impose solutions on problems and ignore the wishes and the will of the people who are going to be affect ed. We are going to be working with those people. We are going to tell them about the plans that we have for decentralization and we are going to ensure that unit by unit they are given the knowledge that they will have to have of positions that are being moved. I might emp hasize, Mr. Speaker, it is positions. Those positions are being moved.

Those people have an agreement, a col lective agreement that entitles them to certain rights and resp onsi bili ties and un der those circumstances we will be dealing with them fairly as an emp loyer in consideration of all those rights and re sponsibili ties on both sides of the collective agreement, which is the only fair way to deal with it. Of course, the Liberals who have never had any management experience, never been in Government, and know nothing about that process, they know nothing of that process- Mr. Speak er: Ord er, please; ord er, please. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. Mr.

Carr: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . The only politician in this province who is making cheap political points is the Premier, who goes out to Brandon to make a blanket announ cement like the one he did yesterday. (interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. Mr. Carr: With a new question, Mr. Speaker, to the Premie r, and let the record show that the Liberal Party in Manitoba, in its campaign platform in the last elec tion, suppo rted a policy of decentralization, a compassiona te policy that cares about people, not the clumsy heavy h anded appr oach of this Go ver nment.

This Government's commitment to recy cling is making annou ncements over and over and over again, which is I am sure what it intends to do with this policy. We would like to get some information out of the Premi er. How were these positions cho sen? Was there consultation with the rural communities? When will he make that public so all Manitobans can judge what he is trying to do with his high-handed approach? Mr. Filmon: I cannot believe this Deputy Leader has obviously got questions written out and he does not li sten to the answers. I said to him that the task force consulted broadly throughout the province.

It received dozens and dozens of written briefs and it met with every single municipal jurisdiction throughout the province that wanted to meet with them to offer the host community as being a base for future Government operations. They gave us all of their advantages and all the opportunities that they saw for decentralization. Second, it was developed from within the Civil Service by going through department by department with the senior mana gement and selec ting through their knowledge and judg ment what particular un its of Government would be appropria te to be moved outside the City of Winnipeg.

So it came from within the Civil Service, out to the task force as recom mendations and those recommendations were gone through and sifted through for the approp riateness of the re commendations. We also dealt with the host commun ities, the potential host communities out there in the municipalities throughout the province, Mr . Speaker. The consultation has been extensive and the process has been a very positive one. Transfer Notice Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr .

Speaker, to the Premi er, if all of these consultations have taken place and as much detail has been given to it as the Premier says, why do these people holding positions have to wait until March to find out where they are going to live next year? * ( 1340) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we have a numb er of issues that have to take pl ace. (interjection)- Mr. Speaker, the Member for St. James (Mr . Edwards) is going through his histrionics as he usually does. Not understanding the issue, all he can do is bellow out there.

The fact of the matter is we have processes that take place to respect the rights of our civil servants and to respect the colle ctive agreement. We also have leases that we have to deal with in terms of space currently occupied by Gover nment, units of departments. We have an Estima tes process that has to be gone through to ensure that this is carried through in a proper vein and that money is budgeted for the various expenses that have to do with moving these people. All of these matters have a process and take time.

We are making sure that people have an opportunity to move at times that are convenient to them. We are spacing this out over the summer months, both this coming year and the following year to ensure that childr en do not have to be moved out of school, that movements can take place when people are not in school. All of those things are being done with the care and the consideration of the people involved in it, Mr. Speaker . We unde rstand the problem. The dif ficulty is that the Liberals made promises when they do not unde rstand anything of the process- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. 3162

Thursday, November 23, 1989 Announcement Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): The obvious question to the Premier is that if he is not ready, if it is going to take all of this time to dot the i's and cross the t's, why did he make the political announc ement yesterday in Brandon, keeping 8,500 public servants waiting in the dark? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): The i's have been dotted, the t's have been crossed, the analysis has been done. Now we have to deal with the people to ensure that it is done in the most consider ate, careful and well planned process, Mr. Speaker. Does the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr .

Carr) not und erstand that we occupy space in Winnipeg? We have to deal with the leases and the shifting of space requirements, Mr . Speaker . Does he not realize that we have to find rental and lease space in the host commun ities? Does he not realize that we have to ensure that the trans fer of services is done in an orderly fashion. He does not understand anything of the process. All he does is get up and criticize- Health Sciences Centre Emergency Department Upg rading Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Thompson. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr .

Sp eak er, throughout this week we have been raising the issue of the problems in the health care system relating to extended care beds, but that is not the only problem that the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard) is not dealing with. There are major problems in terms of emergency care in this province. This morning I had the opportunity to tour the Health Sciences Centre to see, Mr. Speak er, first hand the problems in that facil ity, a facility that was cons tructed in 191 1.

I have a letter from the Health Sciences Centre staff pointing to the bugs, mice, the di rt, the overcrow ding in the emergency facility in that hospital. What I would like to ask the Minister is, why was there no annou ncement in the capital budget of anything to alleviate the facilities there which combine the 19 11 facility and two ATCO trailers? Why was there nothing for the Health Sciences Centre emergency ward in the announc ement earlier this week by the Min ister of Health? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr . Speaker, I believe that the emergency

section of Health Sciences Centre is in architectural design. Those plans are not completed, hence could not be comm itted to construction. Mr. Ashton: Mr . Speaker , I am su rprised at the Minister's response. He supposedly toured this facil ity, as I had the opportunity this morning, and why has there not been an announcement when in this capital budget, a five-year capital budget, there is no mention whatsoever of the Health Sciences Centre?

I would like to ask the Minister what is going to be done to deal 3163 with the fact that the patients who have to have operating procedur es taken are at risk, because it can take as long as five minutes to get them to the operating room which is on the sev enth floor. What is the Minister going to do to prevent any major disasters occurring at that facility? Mr. Orchard: Mr . Speaker, I realize my honourable friend from Thompson is wanting from Opposition to solve every single Capital problem that he may lay his hands on in the health care system of Manitoba.

It is too bad that he was a voice in the wilderness when in Government with an opportunity to do some of these projects and allo wed his Government to freeze them for nine months of 1987. * (1 345) Mr. Speaker, the redev elopment of that

section of the Health Scienc es Centre I believe folds under what they call the HC or the PC Project. It is a project of patient care or health care. I do not know what the latest terminology is. That is a $15 0 million commitment which includ es a podium for service commitment, new emergency and other facilities at the Health Sciences Centre. Mr. Speaker , plans for that redev elopment, that very major redev elopment, are not completed. Those were part of a three-stage, three-phase development announced in 1978 that have not yet developed the plans to develop them.

Those plans are in process with discussion between the hospital and the Manitoba Health Services Commission. Health Care Faci lities Ex tended Care Beds Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker , it is scary to see that this Min ister of Health does not realize what is happening in the health care syste m. Talking of emergency care, the Concordia Hospital yesterday had to shut down its emergency facility because of the lineup of patients in the hallway who need extended care facilities. That is taking place while Deer Lodge sits empty with 85 already constructed hospital beds.

I would like to ask the Min ister of Health when is he going to deal with the increasing ramifications of the crisis in terms of emergency care and extended care in this province. When is he going to deal with that and stop talking about his plans and his health advisory networks. When is he going to deal with the real concerns in the health care system? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health ): Mr . Speaker , I realize my honourable friend has been Health Critic for some short two months and now has all the answers to health care in the Province of Manitoba.

That is an incredible intellig ence and an incre dibly fast learning curve. Mr . Speaker, let me tell my honourable friend the Member for Thom pson that there has seldom been more co-operation between the facilities delivering health care in the Province of Manitoba and the

Thursday, November 23, 1989 Man itoba Health Services Commission to develop those very plans that are now in either commitment to construction or will be in the very near future, either through completion of architectural design or through the tabling of the Health Ad visory Network Report, which is going to tell us how to deal with staff and patient delivery services at Deer Lodge, Concordia, Grace and Municip als, a global concept of the system that has never been taken before and will result in resolution of problems. Emergency Department Shutdowns Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): I will tell you what the people in the health care system are saying, and I will quote from a letter I received, a copy of which the Min ister will be getting, "I am outraged at the recent Government allo cations for impr oved health care services ." I would like to ask the Minis ter, final ly, if he is also aware -I mentioned about the Concord ia emergency room shutting down yesterd ay-is he aware that other emergency facilities have attempted to shut down and have only been stopped by the co-ordination of the ambulance service from doing so?

Is the Minister going to stand idly by while Concordia Hospital and other Emergency Departments are closing down while the He alth Scie nces Centre facility is grossly over burdened? Will the Min ister act to deal with the emergency crisis in this province? Hon. Donald Orchard (M inister of Health ): Mr . Speaker , in the course of my honourable frie nd's question he indeed gave the answer. There has been for the entire month of November an excessive demand on the emergency services of the hospitals throughout the City of Winnipeg.

That has resulted in an interfa cility co-operation program to avoid the kind of problems that happened yesterday at Concordia. It has been working very successfully, because hospitals are co operating with each other to resolve a problem which is caused by an increase in demand for beds in the hospital sys tem. * (1350 ) My honourable friends, the New De:nocratic Party, want to leave the impression that there has never been a November lineup for bed pla cement. That happens every single year. This year it is being co- ordina ted by the hospital administration to assure that patient safety is guaranteed.

Health Sciences Centre Emergency Department Upg rading Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): The Health Sciences Centre emergency room is one of the busiest in Manitoba. It sees about 60,000 patients per year. This hospital receives all trauma victims from Manitoba, accepting al! burn patients out of Manitoba, and it has the highest activity in the city. Staff members are not only dealing with all these patients, but also dealing with bugs, mice, dirt and extreme temperature variations, Mr . Speaker. These people freeze in the winter and overheat in the summer .

Can the Minister of Health tell us, how can he just ify this by ignoring such an important issue as the emergency room of the Health Sciences Centre? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I have already answered that question when posed by my honourable friend from Thompson. Sur ely my honourable friend from the Liberal Party is not suggesting that we build a new emergency at Health Sciences Centre without plans whereby to make that construction possible. Mr. Cheema: This has been in place for the la st 40 years. He has ignored the issue.

The waiting room has a facility for five to six patients only, with no ventilation procedure and mice for comp any. Can the Minis ter of Health tell us, how can he justify that the critical patients' family has to wait in that room, and justif y ignoring those patients? Can he jus tify that today? Mr. Orchard: I have never defended outdated facilities at the Health Sciences Centre. Those outdated facilities in the emergency have existed for a number of years. They were part of a redev elopment project annou nced, a three-phase redeve lopment project .- (interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The Honourable Member for Dauphin (Mr . Plohman) and the Honourable Min ister of Finance (Mr . Manness) are carrying on their private conversation. If the Honourable Mem bers would like to do so, you can do so outside the Chamber. Mr. Orchard: In 1978, the then Government announced a three-phase redev elopment of the Health Sciences Centre. One phase was comm itted to construction and com pleted. The other two phases have never been completed in terms of architectural design and the plans therefore to unde rtake the construction. Mr.

Speaker, I cannot answer for the inactivity, why plans were not comp leted in the six years that Howard Pawley governed the health care system in the Province of Manitoba. The Manitoba Health Services Commission is working dil igently with the adminis tration and management of the Health Scienc es Centre on the HC or PC project, whichever vernacular one wishes to make '. That is a $1 50 million projected commitment and capital reconstruction at the Health Sciences Centre. Capital Fun ding Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kil donan): Mr.

Speaker, the people of Mani toba are fed up with the political manipulation for the allo cation of the resources for our health care. The Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard) talks about the Health Advisory Network. He has created this phenomenon for his inefficiency. Can he tell this House tod ay, assure the people of Manitoba and the Health Scienc es Centre that he will give the funds in the near future to make sure all those patients and families are protected?

They are serving 60,000 patients per year, all the victims of trauma and the burn patients, not only for Manitoba but from north west Ontario, from Saskatchewan also. 3164

Thursday, November 23, 1989 *

(1355) Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I can absol utely guarantee without equ ivoca tion my honourable friend the Liberal Health Critic (Mr . Cheema) that if we have the ability to dir ect the health care system for 15 of the next 20 years it will be compl etely renewed and comp letely revam ped, it will be balanced, and there will be health care facilities available in rural Manitoba, something my honourable friend from the Liberal Party criticized in last year's budget. They want everyt hing in Winnipeg and nothing in rural Manitoba. Consumer Protection Fraudul ent Car Repairs Mr. Paul Edwards (St.

James): Mr. Speak er, my question is for the Minister of Consumer and Corpo rate Affairs (Mr . Connery). Yesterd ay, we saw an investigative report about an auto repair shop in Winnipeg. The report made a strong case that this shop routinely made fraudulent repair estimates. Can the Min ister inform the House today what investigations have been on this particular shop and what measures are presently in place which are supposed to prevent this type of fraud being perpetrated on Manitobans? Hon.

Edward Connery (M inister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I appreciate the question from the Member opposite. For six and a half years the NOP sat on legislation that could have been brought forward to protect the people. That legislation is now before the House and hopefully it will be passed by Christmastime. We realize the deficiency in legislation was not there to make those sorts of investigations and to bring those people to accou ntabil ity, and I hope with the support of the Liberal Party we will get tha t passed by Christmastime.

Consumer Protection Leg islation Regu lations Enforcement Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr . Speaker , as the Min ister is no doubt aware, la ws are one thing, enforcement is another . Wha t new enforcement initiatives will be put in place to deal with the new rules which this Minis ter is proposing? Does he have any ideas for enforcing the laws which may be in place?. If they are not in force, the fact is the people of Manitoba do not benefit from those laws. Hon.

Edward Connery (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): It is unfortuna te that the Member-and it is a good question, but they do their research by the news media again-but this is very serious legislation and we are very proud to bring it forward. We will be taking whatever action is requir ed after the legislation is passed. The legislation is not passed. We do not know what amendments might be heisted on it by the Opposition. Once the legislation is passed we will watching. Wh atever needs to be done our department will take that appropria te action. Cost Analysis Mr. Paul Edwards (St.

James): Mr. Speaker, this is reminiscent of the Min ister of Justice (Mr . Mccrae) bringing in drinking and driving legislation, saying there was going to be an educational package and then not doing it. This Minister is saying he is going to be bringing in some tough legislation. How is he going to enforce it? ***** Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Point of order, Mr . Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Elmwood, on a point of order. Mr. Maloway: Mr . Speaker, on a point of order, this caucus introduced that very Bill last year. The Bill has been on the Order Paper for- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr.

Speaker: Ord er, please. Order. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. ***** Mr. Edwards: Well, there is a rush to claim credit, but the fact is neither of those Parties have come up with any ideas about enforcement. That is the critical issue. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for St. Ja mes. *

(1400) Mr. Edwards: I have a final question for the Minister. Is the Min ister considering implementing-and I heard the Mi nister of Finance (Mr . Man ness) yell it from his seat in the last ques tion-a ghost car program, as is presently run in Ontario, that would randomly and anonymously spot check auto garages to ensure they are engaging in proper business practices? Has a cost analysis been done of- An Honourable Member: Let us hear the question, Paul. Mr. Edwards: The Min ister of Justice (Mr . Mccr ae) is a little disa ppointed I am not asking him a question tod ay, maybe later on.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speake r: Ord er, please; ord er, please. The Honourable Min ister of Consumer and Corpo rate Affairs. Hon. Edward Connery (M inister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): The origin of that 3165

Thursday, November 23, 1989 legislation goes back to 1975. The NDP sat on it all through the six and half years that they were in place. When we took office , the former Min ister of Consumer and Corporate Affa irs started to work to make sure it came through . When I took office in that department we brought it forward . If the ghost car program is something that will assist us, we will be reviewing all of those opt ions that are before Government. First of all, we are putting forth some of the best consumer legislation that this province has said is very sorely needed .

Hopefully it will be in place by the end of this year. Those options tha t are required to enforce it will be taken . Day Care Workers Standards Compliance Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): I would like to ask the First Minister a question based on a very serious letter that was sent today to the Minister of Family Services (Mrs . Oleson) from the Manitoba Child Care Association. That letter makes some very serious allegations .

Basically it says, " In our opinion the current classification procedures of child care professionals , under the direction of your department , is in direct contravention of the current legislation ." I would like to ask the First Minister , given those serious allegations, will he forward this letter today to Legislative counsel to determine if legislation is being broken by his Minister of Family Services , her department and thereby this Government? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier) : I will await receipt of that notice, at least of that letter , and I will read it very carefully and be able then to respond. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: I would like to ask the First Minister if he will go much beyond that, since he knows about the chaos in the classification system and the apparent non-compliance of legislation. Will he undertake a complete review of this perceived erosion of standards caused by apparent non-compliance of legislation? Will he make a commitment today to correct any policies by his Minister and her depar iment result ing in the erosion of standards? Mr. Filmon : Of course, we have all of these qualifications of perceived and apparent and all of these behind the question .

Given that the information the Member for St. Johns brings to the House is not alway s totally reliable, I will await the receipt of that letter and review it very carefully before I respond . Manitoba Child Care Association Class Action Suit Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns) : I have a fin al question to the First Minister .

Given that this is such a serious situation , that the Manitoba Child Care Association is considering a class action suit on behalf of child care professionals , will the First Minister agree to their request if they proceed with that class action suit , that his Minister and his Government release all relevant documentation under the Freedom of Information Act? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Spe aker, I have received th reats from the Mani t oba Child Car e Association before . I will look at them carefully .

Let me say this, this Governmen t will ensure that the highest possible standards in day care will be adhered to in this province under all circumstances for the pro tection and the interest of the children in care. Free Trade Agreement Subsidy Negotiations Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Though I seldom exercise my right as a Member of this House to question Ministers, I rise today due to the concern and confus ion created earlier in the week by a series of questions on the free trade subsidy negotiations . Mr. Speaker , my question is for the Minister of Industry , Trade and Tourism (Mr. Ernst) .

As I understand , as I would appreciate that all Members of this House understand , the ramifications and the importance of those negotiations , my question is, could the Minister please outline to this House the present state of those negotiations as they exist today? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry , Trade and Tourism): Yesterday the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs . Carstairs) delivered a rather vicious attack on my integrity during her questions with regard to free trade subsidy negotiations . Apparently she had telephoned the U.S.

Trade Office in Washington to try and find out what the state of negotiations were. Well, Mr. Speaker, she was wrong yesterday , she was wrong the day before, and she is wrong today. In support - Some Honourable Members : Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker : Order , please ; order, please. The Honourable Minister. Mr. Ernst: In support of my statement , l et me tabl e before this House the report of Mr. A. L. Hallid ay, who is the chairman of the Canadian Subsidy Negotiation Commit tee before the House of Commons Standing Committee on External Affairs and International Trade .

Let me read two excerp ts of tha t, they are very shor t. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker : Order , please . Order , please. I would like to remind the Honourable Minister that answers to quest ions should be as b rief as possibl e. Th e Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speake r, I have a supplem enta ry question . Given the importance of this issue , I wou ld ask the Minister if he could inform this Hous e as to the channels of communication within Canada th at th e Government of Canada has established in developing our position in those negotia tions ? Mr.

Ernst: As most people who are in the business of politics and of Government in this country know , ther e 3166

Thursday, November 23, 1989 are certain channels to be followed when dealing with foreign Governments. The bumbling and bungling of the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) and her agent the Member for Transcona (Mr . Kozak) in going to Wash ington avoided all diplomatic protocol in this countr y. Those actions have em barrassed Canada, have emba rrassed Manitoba, and on top of that may well have jeopardized the free trade subsidy negotiations. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, order. ***** Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): Point of order. Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Member for Transcona, on a point of order. Mr. Kozak: Mr. Speaker, the Min ister is free to say wha tever he wants in this Hous e from his own ideological perspective, but my discussions- Mr. Speaker: The point of order . Mr. Kozak: -with our friends to the south related only to matters of public record- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. What is the point of order? Mr. Kozak: -and 250 million Americans can analyze printed material as well as I can.- (interject ion)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order .

There is a dispute over the facts.- (interjection)- Order. ***** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber for Lac du Bonnet, with his final supp lementary question. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speak er, I have a final sup plementary question to the Min ister of Ind ustry, Trade and Tourism (Mr . Ernst).

Given the impor tance of those negotiations to industry in this province, could the Minister please tell the House what position the federal Government has taken on the conduct of those negotiations in ensuring that the Canadian position is not jeopardized by forays into the U.S. by parties that are not part of those negotiations? -(interjection)- Mr. Speake r: Ord er, please; ord er, please. The Honourable Member's question deals with a matter which is not within the resp onsibili ty of this administration, therefore, out of order. Would the Honourable Member kindly reph rase his question? Mr.

Praznik: This issue is of great importance to indus try within the Province of Manitoba. Could the Mi nister please tell the House if he is aware of what stand the federal Government has taken with respect to the conduct of those negotiations to ensure our position is not jeopardized? Mr. Ernst: Mr . Speaker -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. The Honourable Min ister of Indus try and Trade. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker , let me quote two excerpts from the report that I tabled just a few moments ago. First, this is the report of Mr . Tony Hallida y, the Chief Negotiator for Canada.

"We are currently operating under a mandate from Min isters which authorizes a set of preparatory activities -" ***** Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Mem ber for Thompson, on a point of order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House Leader): I realize that you have been trying to get the Mem ber to addr ess the questions that deal with matters within his responsi bil ity. I distinctly remember the Member for Lac du Bon net (Mr . Prazn ik) ask a question of awareness.

I cannot see in any way, shape or form how the answer of the Minister has any relevance to the question from the Member for Lac du Bonnet, and I would ask you to call him to order because it is not in order, first of all, to deal with irrelevant matters, and second of all, it is an abuse of our scarce Question Period time, as outlined in Beauchesn e's Citation 410(3). This is a comp lete waste of time. The Minister has already tabled this document. If he wishes to make a ministerial statement that would be the appropriate time to deal with the detail, not our Question Period time. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the Honourable Member for Thompson (Mr . Ashton), the Honourable Min ister quoting from the document has been asked to table the document. The Honourable Min ister is quoting from another document? Mr. Ernst: No, the document that I referred to, Mr. Speak er, has been tabled in the House. Free Trade Agreement Subsidy Neg otiations Deadline Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): I am very sorry as a Manitoban today that the needs of democratically elected officials in this province are awkward for our Ministry of Trade and for this Government.

For the past two days the Trade Minister has told us we have 10 months to prepare to defend Manitoba's economic development programs in the Canada-U .S. subsidy negotiations. The Min ister admits that a vast range of important programs, programs relevant to our economy , vital at both the federal and provincial lev els, are open to question. Does the Minister deny that the deadline for an agreement will be reached long before 3167

Thursday, November 23, 1989 June of 1991, which marks the end of Congress' fast track authority over the negotiations? *

(1410) Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): If the Member for Transcona, during his clandestine visit to Washington had taken the time to ask what was happening , and if his Leader had taken the time in her phone call to the trade office in Washington to ask what was happening , they would have found out . What they would have found out was 1990 , according to the document that I tabled a few minutes earl ier, 1990 is the year of preparation . No negotiations will take place before January 1, 1991. That is in the document that went before the House of Commons .- (interjection)- Mr.

Speaker: Order . The Honourable Member for Transcona . Subsidy Negotiations Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): I would like to table an opposing view of the time frame for negotiations , that of the chairman of the House of Representatives Small Business Committee, who knows a great deal more than this Minister . Is the Minister willing to co operate in placing 100 years of Canadian and Manitoban economic policies on the firing line in negotiations lasting only a few months? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, the opinion of one person that the Member for Transcona (Mr.

Kozak) talked to in Washington I think does not compare to the opinion of the Government of Canada set forth before a House of Commons committee. Mr. Speaker, the chief negotiator for Canada went before a House of Commons committee and there is his report to that committee. I have tabled that, not some opinion from the Member for Transcona or somebody he happened to talk to in Washington . Mr. Speaker : The Honourable Member for Transcona has time for a very short question. Government Support Criteria Mr.

Richard Kozak (Transcona): The person I talked to and the other people I talked to were not just somebody , Mr. Speaker . Will this Government announce today that its support for the Canada-U.S. Trade Agreement is contingent on the successful defence of Manitoba's economic policies in the subsidies negotiations? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I know that the Member for Transcona is feeling embarrassed.

He ought to feel embarrassed over this situation for he embarrassed his country and he embarrassed his province in Washington to talk to people about trade negotiations outside of the diplomatic protocol of both nations . Mr. Speaker, any Minister of the Crown of Manitoba doing the same thing should also follow those diplomatic protocols and certainly even offi cials of the Government of Canada must follow those diplomatic protocols. So I understand, Mr.

Speaker, the Member 's embarrassment and I think he ought to do the honourable thing and write a letter of apology to the External Affairs Department in Ottawa and a letter of apology to the Premier here. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired . ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker , I move , seconded by the Honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr.

Speaker , in the Chamber would be Energy and Mines ; and outside the Chamber , Health . MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Comm itt ee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Health ; and the Honourable Member for Burrows (Mr. Chornopyski) in the Chair for the Department of Energy and Mines. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-HEALTH Mr. Chairman (Harold Gilleshammer): I call this committee to order to discuss the Estimates of the Department of Health.

When we last met we were on item 6. Manitoba Health Services Commission , Administration $19 ,990,800-the Member for Thompson. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Chairperson , I know the Liberal Critic will be here very shortly. The suggestion of the Liberal Critic, and I concur with that , would be that we deal with the Health Services Commission as one entity . There are a lot of questions obviously that will be raised, but if the Minister is co operative on that I would like to start by asking some questions in terms of the capital project , and perhaps if we can deal on the first line item with all the MHSC .

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Chairman , I just want to point out to my honourable friend that up until the Commission, any time I have suggested that we deal with the whole item , both Opposition Parties had said, oh, no, no , no, we have to go line by line . Now my honourable friends want to deal with all issues at once . I have no problem with that except that today, because we have been going line by line, I do not have any hospital staff here . I do not have any personal care home people here and I do not have any medical line people here that can handle the questions. 3168

Thursday, November 23, 1989 If my honourable friend wants to have that kind of staff standing around waiting for the odd question here or there, I do not particularly think that is productive. We have wasted quite enough staff time throughout the department of the Min istry of Health already in the consideration of these Estimates. I would suggest to my honourable friend that any questions he wants to ask in capital, we can answer any of those questions.

I would prefer to have line-by-line consideration of the Estimates of the Commission, so that I can have appropriate staff here to answer those questions when they are on the Estimates and not away from their jobs for the next several days or however much time my honour abl e friends wish to take in debating the Commission Estima tes. I would prefer to go line by line and we will answer any capital questions any time during the line by line consideration. Mr. Chairman: Our practice in committee here has been to go line by line and we are on the administration line at this time. The Member for Thompson. Mr.

Ashton: It is unfortunate the staff is not available. Perhaps we need to get some better communication, because based on last year' s Estimates and the Min ister remembers it well, MHSC was dealt with all in one sitting, as I under stand it. I think he has reminded, cer tainly the Liberal Critic, of that on various occasions.

I am not suggesting that is going to be the case this year, I very much doubt it, but I think perhaps if we can get some better communication, I am certainly more than willing -I have tried and I know the Liberal Critic has tried as well throughout considerations to be as co-operative as possible in regard to staff time and trying to commun icate what line items we expect to be on and what line items will be coming up in the next few days. If the Minister wants to do it that way, we will do it that way, and begin with some questions on the capital.

I do not know if perhaps the Liberal Critic has some other ideas in terms of procedures, but if the Min ister wants to deal line by line, I guess we will deal line by line and begin with capital. Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Chairperson, just wanted to-I just came late, but I wanted to correct the Min ister that we did not waste anybody's time , in the Estimates process. If the staff is here, we are trying as much as possible to make sure their time is used. I do not think in my view that we have wasted anybody's time, and I would like the Min ister to withdraw those words, please. Mr. Orchard: Mr .

Chairman, I stand by the statement and there is nothing to withdraw. *

(1450) Mr. Chairman: It appears we are in agreement to go lin e by line and to proceed with this on the administration line. 3169 ***** Mr. Chairman: The Member for Kildonan, on a point of order. Mr. Cheema: Mr . Chairperson, how can the Minis ter jus tify that we are wasting staff's time here? He has to withdraw this. Mr. Chairman: A dispute over the facts is not a point of order . We will proceed with Admi nistration. ***** Mr. Ashton: Mr . Chairperson, I am not raising a point of order, I am just getting into the discussion.

I find the last comments by the Minister to be very unfair to Members of this committee. On a number of occasions, either to the Minister or to members of his staff, I and the Member for Kildonan (Mr . Cheema) have tried to give the best indication possible as to when we will be on certain line items. On a number of occasions the Minister himself was able to tell staff not to be waiting in the comm ittee to deal with various items. What staff are here or not here today are the decision of the Minister . We were not contacted in terms of what we expected to be brought up tod ay.

Perhaps if the Minister was so concerned about the use of staff time he would try and commun icate a little better with Memb ers of this comm ittee. As I said, last year the MHSC was dealt with in one da y. Toda y the Mi nister has obviously made the unilateral decision that it is not going to be, it is not required to call the various staff in. That is not based on any conv ersations with Members of the Opposition. If anybody has been sitting here unnecessari ly, or has not been called when they should be called, the Minister should be the one that should take responsibility for that.

If the Minister is not going to be co-operative, we will deal with capital and other items tod ay. For the Mi nister to accuse the Opposition Members of wasting committee time is an insult. This is one of the most important departments in Government. We have spent the amount of time that is required, we have asked a lot of good questions in comm ittee, Mr. Chairperson, and will continue to do so. ***** Mr. Chairman: On a point of order , the Honourable Mi nister of Northern Affairs. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I came in here to listen to the Esti mates of the Department of Health and I have heard the Member for Thompson (Mr . Ashton) do nothing but criticize the Minister unfairly. He is the most co-operativ e Minister and I think he is wasting the time of this committee and that is not the purpose of it. It is to discuss the Estimates of Health. Mr. Chairman: Order, please; order , please. The Member does not have a point of order. On a new point of order, the Member for Kildonan.

Thursday, November 23, 1989 Mr. Cheema: With all due respect to the Min ister of Northern Affairs, he came very late and he does not kno w what happe ned five minutes ago. We asked the Min ister of Health (Mr . Orc hard ) some thing very reaso nable. We have been co-operating with him. Now alm ost 80 percent of things are done and now the Min ister is showing his real- Mr. Chairman: Order, please. The Member does not have a point of ord er. Can we proceed at this time then with line on Admin istration $19,990,800.00? On a new point of order, the Honourable Min ister of Northern Affairs. Mr. Downey: Mr .

Chairman, I bel ieve it is unparl iamentary and the Rules do not allow for any Member of a committee or the House to make any comment as to whether a Member is present or absent in comm ittee and/or in the Legislature. I would ask the Member for an apol ogy. Mr. Chairman: On the same point of order, the Member for Thompson. Mr. Ashton: I was just- perhaps the Liberal Mem ber, instead of saying the Min ister did not know what he was talking about because he came late, should just rephrase and say the Min ister did not know what he was talking about. That would be a totally accurate statement and parliame ntary.

Mr. Cheema: I did not mean to offe nd the Min ister but, Mr. Chairperson, before any person makes a comment he should at least have the background on what happened a few minutes ago. Mr. Chairman: I thank all Honourable Members for their input. Can we proceed at this time to- there was no point of order. ***** Mr. Chairman: Can we proceed at this time to the line on Admin istration? Mr. Ashton: The Min ister has indicateci he will answer questions on capital.

I would like to begin in that vein by asking the Min ister, in terms of the Capital Program, if the Minister can give a breakdown-we are dealing here with the capital Estima tes for '8 9-90, also budgetary projection for the five-year period April 1, 1989 through 1994 which is a standard practice in terms of capital. I would like to ask the Min ister if he can give a breakdown in terms of what funds are being expended on projects already approved, what funds are being expended on new projects, and when those funds will be expended -h ow much in this year and how much in upcoming fiscal years? Mr.

Orchard: Is my honourable friend asking in terms of capital construction? Mr. Ashton: Capital construction. Mr. Orchard: I believe the figur e on projects in process right now that were committed to construction last year, and I am only going to deal with the major projects that were committed last year. I believe the number is close to, and these are just about $54 millio n under construction right now. Mr. Ashton: How much then is the figure for projects now approved for construction for this fiscal year? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, some projects that were com mitted in last year's capital Estima tes have been compl eted, for instance, the Erickson hospital and personal care home; for instance, an emergency outpatient expansion at Morden hospital. I am not sure of other ones, but the projections are that the major projects announced this week, given to my honourable friend Monday night and subsequently appearing in the Free Press as a story the next morning, are $247 million in rough approximation, $246.5 million. Mr.

Ashton: That is the figur e for the capital expenditur es total on those projects , or is that figure for this fiscal year? Mr. Orchard: That is the total expected commitment of capital resource to compl ete the construction of the major projects that were part of, I believe,

Schedule II in my honourable friend 's capital Estimates book. Mr. Ashton: Over what period of time are these projects going to be completed? Mr. Orchard: The intention of Government is to have construction commence on these projects by the end of 1990, and depending on the nature of the project, the size of the project, some will be comple ted in early '91, some will be comp leted in late '91, and some will take until '92 for completion, some of the major projects. Mr.

Ashton: So essent ially we are looking at the funds being flowed over three dif ferent fiscal years in the case of particularly the large projects? Mr. Orchard: That is correct, and that is the same as what happened in every capital budget. That is the same as what happens, for instance, in Education capital, Highways capital. Mr. Chairman, that is expected to have the $240-plus million flowed by mid-1992, no glitches in the tendering process, no unacceptable tenders. Mr.

Ashton: The Minister broke out the figure for those that are already in process, and I am just wondering if the Minister could give a breakdown between those projects that were already approved and those projects that are new projects. Mr. Orchard: The projects already appr oved are those in

Schedule I. Mr. Ashton: The reason I am asking for this information is that in previous capital budgets that information has been part of the introd uctory comments. In this particular case that breakdown has not been given, and I think it is important that it be made quite clear to people as to what the overall figures we are dealing with are. 3170

Thursday, November 23, 1989 Essentially the Minister is giving the figure for

Schedule I. I would like to ask what is the total figure for

Schedule II. That is really the breakdown I am looking for, the difference between I and 11 , and the differenc e in II between those that have already been approved , because some of the projects have been previously approved, and those that are new projects as announced in the capital Estimates . I go back to the '86-87 period, for example, and information was given on those currently under construction , which the Minister has given , those projects now approved for construction , and it breaks out a figure for those that were not previously approved . That is the breakdown I am looking for, that latter distinction . *

(1500) Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I would refer my honourable friend to page 4 on the capital Estimates document wherein it discusses Projects In Construction (Sche dule I). At the present time, there are 17 major projects with an estimated value of $54 million which are advanced in the construction phase and which are expected to be operational within the next 12 months. I believe that is the breakdown my honourable friend was seeking and indicating was not part of the introductory remarks.

Secondly on page 4, next paragraph, Projects Approved For Construction , approval is provided to proceed to construction during the next year for another 28 major projects valued at $241.5 million and a number of minor projects valued at $5 million, total $246 .5 million. I believe that is the information my honourable friend sought and said was not part of the opening remarks . Mr. Ashton: In previous Capital Programs, it was a breakdown of Projects Approved for Construction,

Schedule II, in two categories, those that were previously approved and those that were newly approved. In 1986, for example, the figure for projects approved was $255.4 million, and it was stated in the first paragraph that of this amount, approximately $112.5 million are for projects not previously approved. I am wondering if the Minister can provide a similar breakdown which is not provided in

Schedule IV.

Schedule IV provides the first amount of information, Projects Now Approved for Construction, but does not net out the already announced projects and new projects. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman ,

Schedule I, immediately following page 5, capital Estimates: Pine Falls is a project currently under construction announced last year, sod broken approximately July, construction ongoing at present . Vita is a project under way with I believe the foundations being poured or completed and poured.

The Gimli-Betel personal care home is a project announced last year, now close to completion in construction . 3171 The Benito facility, combining personal care homes and acute care hospital beds replacing an outdated hospital is now under construction , sod turning in July of this year, expected to open possibly early spring. The Neepawa-Eastview Lodge is a project currently under construction. The Erickson hospital is a construction project of a personal care home combined with acute care hospital beds replacing an old , outdated hospital in Erickson, and it was committed to construction in 1981.

It was sod turned in approximately June of last year. The ribbon was cut on that facility at the first of this month . The Virden hospital is a replacement of the old hospital in Virden, which is under construction right now , sod turning , as a result of accepted tender, in August of 1988, now with the roof on it. Manitou , a new personal care home , acute care hospital facility, approved for construction in 1981, subsequently shelved and frozen , now being under construction , opening next year, sod turning June , 1988. Morden hospital , sod turning early July 1988, completed and functional.

Foyer Notre Dame , upgrading the facility to accommodate program change , construction under way. Fred Douglas Lodge in Winnipeg, a significant increase in the number of personal care home beds, sod turned mid-1988 , under construction. Health Sciences Centre, Phase II and Ill of emergency power upgrade, in construction; upgrade of equipment, operating room 2 and 10 for cardiovascular surgery and cystoscopy, in process of renovation. St. Boniface, an expansion of the Z block to accommodate UNISYS administration and training, I believe completed; radiology upgrade and equipment, St.

Boniface Hospital , equipment purchased, installation ongoing. Sharon Home , upgrading of the dietary, sod turning in July of this year, construction underway. Tache, renovations to accommodate maintenance. Those are projects under construction . Mr. Chairman, let us now go to

Schedule 11, and I will take my honourable friend through the proposed construction projects totalling $246.5 million. If my honourable friend wants to go through them line by line, we can, but I am sure my honourable friend can read what the new projects are , where they are and the explanation . If he needs any clarification as to the explanation as to what those projects do, I would be more than pleased to provide that to my honourable friend . What my honourable friend is seeing, I think, reasonably clearly laid out in the Capital Program are: (

a) those projects approved last year and currently under construction in various stages of completion, and; (

b) Schedule 11, which are projects for which architectural drawings and design were either completed in the last 12 months or have been completed for sometime and

Thursday, November 23, 1989 have been committed to construction so construction can commence within the next 12 months. Following that,

Schedule Ill are projects which are now moved to architectural planning and are in various stages of architectural planning or will be within the next 12 months. Then I can take my honourable friend to

Schedule IV, which are projects for which, by and large, design has been completed. It is awaiting a decision of the Health Advisory Network Extended Tre atment Bed Review for decisions on what construction ought to be proceeded with. Sched ul e V indi cates th ose projects for which functional programming has been approved this year, or is in process from past years, the Health Sciences Centre major redev elopment, including the emergency rooms that my honourable friend mentioned is part of that major redevel opment in projects approved for functional programming. I refer my honourable friend to

Schedule VI, Facilities for Future Consid eration as Projects. Those are projects, as listed there, for which the communities and/or the sponsoring organizations have approached Government to say, we belie ve we can meet a need, or we need Government to consider an upgrade of our existing facilities. That is

Schedule VI. Does my honourable friend have any questions of clarification? Mr. Ashton: All I have been asking for is the same type of information that was provided in 1986, and I believe it was provided in previous reports. It relates not to

Schedule I, I made it quite clear, it relates to

Schedule II, Projects Ap proved for Construction. That was to get some indication how many had already been announced by the Min ister and how many of them were new projects, because I go through the list and a number of people I kn ow in the health field have been commenting that a number of the projects that were already announced in previous years, that distinction was recognized. *

(1510) As I said -I will just read it again from the 1986-87 Five-Year Capital Program. It listed the projects now approved for construction, which is essent ially

Schedule II in the new document. It listed the amount which was for projects not previously approved. That is the breakdown I am asking for. It was provided by the department and the Min ister as a matter of course in 1986-87 and in previous years, and I would just like the Min ister to provide that same breakdown as well. If he cannot do it at this point in time, I am sure we can have that information provided to us at a later date. A number of these projects, the $245 million, have already been announced.

I think one key thing that people in the health field were looking for was that breakdown which had been provided pre viously and is not a part of the '88 document. Will the Minis ter, if he cannot provide that information now, provide it to us at our next comm ittee hearing? Mr. Orchard: That information is provided in the capital approved budget. Mr. Chairman, the projects in construction, I cannot take you through every one of them-that is

Schedule 1-1 cannot take you through every one of them and tell you when they were approved for construction. I do bel ieve that Vita was approved for construction in 1981 and languished for seven NOP years. I know Manitou was in that categor y. I believe Benito and Erickson were also in that catego ry. I cannot answer for what held-out promis es were made to the health care field by the previous administration. I am not answerable to that. I am simply giving to my honourable friend projects that were committed to construction by this Government last year and which are under construction right now.

Some of them, as I indicated last year, were in communities that had waited 10 years for construction to commence after being promised and promised and promised. We initiated those construction projects, they are within

Schedule I. Mr . Chairman, I take my honourable friend to

Schedule II.

Schedule II tells my honourable friend what projects, throughout the Manitoba health care system, it is the intention of this Government to commenc e construction on within the next 12 months. My honourable friend in Government may have announc ed some of these projects 10 years ago or 15 years ago. I do no t kno w, because they never commenced construction. The commitment we had made here Tuesday of this week is to commence construction in the next 12 months on the projects as appearing in

Schedule II. I cannot answer for what promis es my honourable friend might have held out as a Memb er of a Government that promised much and del ivered little. I am simply laying out the capital budget of this Government that we intend to commence construction on in the next 12 months. Mr. Ashton: I am amazed at the extent to which the Mi nister is evad ing the answer on this question. I am not asking about

Schedule I. In 1986 there were the same listings that were given as currently exist tod ay, but a breakdown was given from those projects now approved for construction of those projects that were not previously approved. In case the Minis ter has forgotten, in 1986-87 there was a continuation announc ed of $234.7 million, which was under construction. That is the equivalent of the $54 million figur e in this particular document. There was also indication of $255.4 million now approved for construction, this is the current

Schedule II. That information, yes, is included in the Minister's document. In the first paragraph of the 1986-87 document there was a br eakdown of the amoun ts not appro ved previously. The Minis ter is not giving that information now. I am not just talking about items that were approved by previous Governments. One point that had been raised -I know one thing that is frustrating to people in the health care system is that a number 3172

Thursday, November 23, 1989 of the projects in

Schedule II have already been announced . I heard this, today, at the Health Sciences Centre, people were saying, how many more times is the Minister going to announce the same thing. I think if the Minister wants to be open and factual to this committee that he should undertake to provide a breakdown of how many projects were not previously approved and appear in this document. I think that is only fair. I am not just talking about projects approved by a previous Government, I am talking about projects approved by this Government, either this year or last year.

I do not see why the Minister-and they talk about being an open Government-is not answering my request for a breakdown for figures that were provided by the then Minister of Health , Larry Desjardins. I believe the Minist er was critic at the time, Health Critic in 1986- 87. He can correct me if I am wrong. He was the Health Critic, and he was given that information as a matter of due course. I am asking it from the Minister , and I would like to ask him once again, will he provide that information, the breakdown of those projects newly approved and those projects previously approved which are under

Schedule II? I am not talking about

Schedule I whatsoever, I am talk ing about

Schedule II. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, these projects are approved for construction, all of them for the first time by this Government. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-the Member for Thompson. Mr. Ashton: Well, the breakdown, using the same criteria, was not given before the Minister-a number of these projects are not new projects, they are valuable projects , I am not saying that, as of themselves, but if the Minister wants to continue to use those global figures there is very little we can do about it.

What I would like to get some indication from the Minister then-if we should move on to other areas to try and get answe rs. There are figures in terms of projects approved for architectural planning . What I would like to ask the Minister is, what the cost figures are for the

Schedule IV projects; Concordia Hospital, Grace General Hospital and Phase I of the major redevelopment of the Winnipeg Municipal Hospital? Mr. Orchard: Just over $60 million, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Ashton: Sixty million dollars for each project? Mr. Orchard: Just over $60 million. Mr. Ashton: Is that a total of the three projects or is that for each? Mr. Orchard: I believe that was the question you asked was, what are the cost of those three projects, and it is just over $60 million. Mr. Ashton: The total project would be over $60 million.

I would like to ask the Minis ter- and we have dealt with this in the context of the Health Advisory Network before. Now we are seeing the growing pressures on the system that are growing daily from the fact that the

Schedule IV projects; the Concordia Hospital, the Grace General Hospital, the Winnipeg Municipal Hospitals have been put on hold while the Minister awaits the decision of the Health Advisory Network. What I would like to ask the Minister is: when is the Minister going to make a decision on these projects? Quite simply, when will these hospitals know what to expect, if anything, from this Ministe r? Mr. Orcha rd: Well, you see there is an asterisk on

Schedule IV, and that asterisk indicates that once the Government receives the Health Advisory Network review on extended-treatment beds announcements may follow in the balance of the fisca l year. That is the desire of Government, to make announcements given workable recommendations from the Health Advisory Network. Mr. Ashton: I have seen the asterisk, it says "may" follow . You will have to excuse us in the Opposition if we are a little bit skeptical. The Health Advisory _Network was budgeted for $500,000 last year. We did not realize, I am sure, in committee-I am sure the Member for Kildonan (Mr.

Cheema) did not realize-that was a "maybe" figure . I think people, in discussing in the Health committee last year, would have expected far more to be happening with the Health Advisory Network, given the vital decisions that are resting on its report. So I would like to ask the Minister-rather than saying " may" -will the Minister commit himself, today, to a decision on these three projects by the end of this fiscal year? Mr.

Orchard: It is fully the intention of this Government to make appropriate decisions flowing from the Health Advisory Network to resolve the committed construction projects, one before Government for approximately 20 years at Municipals involving a 400-plus bed redevelopment at Municipals. Might I remind my honourable friend, when he is wanting a commitment from this Government-a decision that in the 20 years that Municipals redevelopment has been an issue before Government my honourable friend's Party was Government for 15 of 20 of those years and made no such commitment. Mr.

Chairman, the other two projects have been before Government, I believe, since 1985. It is fully the intention of this Government to resolve the issues of those three facilities plus the 88 beds that we have available for immediate service in the system at Deer Lodge when the Health Advisory Network gives us, hopefully, guidance and recommendations in terms of the types of beds we ought to have in the system, the numbers of those types of beds they believe would be appropriate in taking the Health Care system into the next century, and hopefully where the most appropriate location for those beds ought to be. Mr.

Ashton: In other words, the Minister will not commit at the end of the fiscal year. I would like to ask then, 3173

Thursday, November 23, 1989 if the Health Advisory Network does recommend the approval of these projects, will the Minister -a fter using the Health Advisory Network as a reason for not making a decisi on-will he abide by the recommendations of the Health Advisory Netw ork? If they say build the three projects, will the Government build them? Mr. Orchard: Mr . Chairman, my honourable friend is now living in the Liberal land of "if". I cannot prejudge what will be part and parcel of the recommendations of the Health Advisory Network.

If I knew what their decision was I could answer that question, but I do not have the Health Advisory Network in front of me and any of their reco mmendations. * (15 20) When I have those recommendations I will respond in very short order to those that may well include reconstruction at all three facilities, if that is an appropriate response to the Health Advisory Network, but my honourable friend is asking me to commit to something that may not be recommended. I cannot react to a hypothetical "if" question. Mr. Ashton: I will put it more simply if the Minister wants.

Will the Min ister abide by the decision of the Health Advisory Network? I have just outlined that - (interjec tion)- We ll, okay then if the Minister is not going to answer we are getting the answer from the Min ister of Finance (Mr . Ma nness) and the Mi nister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey). The answer is, no.

Essent ially we have been waiting for this much wanted Health Advisory Network, and as was, I think, raised in comm ittee at the beginning of this dis cussion in the general context, the Health Advisory Network could come in with a recom mendation for all three facilities to be constructed, and the Min ister could turn around and say no, which really I think begs the question why the Min ister has been putting such great emphasis, using it as such a large excuse in terms of the Health Advisory Network. If that is going to continue to be the policy of the province I would like to ask then, dealing with

Schedule V projects, what is the time frame for

Schedule V projects? We mentioned earlier in Question Period, both Opposition Critics, about one particular need in the Health Sciences Centre. What is the time frame of the

Schedule V projects, Projects App roved for Functional Progr amming? Mr. Orchard: That is a var ying time frame, Mr . Chairman. Some of them may well have the functional program ming approved and within agreement of system needs with the Manitoba Health Services Commission in rather short order, others may well take long er. Mr. Ashton: The lack of clarity in terms of that is going to be cold comfort for some of the individuals who have been stunned by the fact that their particular facilities have not been included in terms of this year's capital program ming.

I find it interesting looking at the overall situation in terms of the Capital Program, because the Min ister must have done quite a selling job, in terms of the Premier (Mr . Filmon), in trying to suggest there was far more in it than is actually turning out to be the case. What we are finding day after day this week are the omissions from the capital project. If the Minister wants to go back-you know it is interes ting how he will g�oss over what happened for a number of previous yeacs. I think the Mi nister should take the time to look ai what was appr oved for capital projects over the last number of years.

I am not just talking about the last 18 months in which we have had I believe the $95 million figure that was mentioned by the Minister, but even going back to 19 86-87 when the ongoing construction itself was a quarter of a billion dollars, when projects were app roved were of a sim ila r magnitude. What the Min ister is going to have to deal with, in terms of capital projects in their generality over the next period of time, is a growing concern, a growing frustration.

We have seen it from the Concordia General Hospital, we have seen it from the Grace General Hospital, we have seen it from the Winnipeg Muni cipal Hospital, we are seeing it in terms of Deer Lodge. We are looking at a situation where the Min ister is going to have to move and a "may" is not good enough as far as people in those facilities are concerned because the whole system is getting affecte d. The Min ister is going to have to move as soon as possible.

It is not acceptable that the Min ister is putting so much attention on the Health Advisor y Network and then at the next breath saying, well, even if they go and recommend all three facilities, still overrule them. So we are in that situation, Mr. Chairperson. We are also in a situation, where in the terms that they scheduled five of the projects that are for approved for functional programming, there are once again indefinite time lines.

I would appr eciate a detailed breakdown, if the Min ister can give it, in terms of the time frames for the facilities that are listed, because I do not think that the general answer is going to satisfy people in those facilities and in those communities. I think that is very important because this is not just a document that reflects the 1989 fiscal year. It is, as all Capital Programs are, a five-year capital project document for the next five years.

I think there are some very real questions being asked this week, following the release of this particular document early in the week, by people in many of the facilities that are either not appr oved, for whatever reason, are in the various other categories of architectural planning, or in terms of awaiting Government review, or approval in terms of waiting approval for going further than functional programming. I think it is important information for the Mi nister to provide.

As I said, the information that was provided in previous documents was perhaps somewhat less self congratula tory , somewhat less exaggerated, but was more detailed and was more useful information. It is fine for the Min ister, and he is an expert at this, to mak e anno un cements and then further announ cements and then further annou ncements of 3174

Thursday, November 23, 1989 the same project. I was at the Health Sciences Centre and they were cynical about this Minister. They went through this project, listing, and they said, well, he has announced, he has been cutting ribb ons in the psychiatry facility on a regular basis since he has been a Minis ter. That is the Min ister's option.

If the Mi nister wants to recycle announ cements of capital projects, if the Mi nister wants to recycle announcements of the Trust Fund, if the Min ister wants to recycle the Health Advisory Network, we will give him the recyc ling man of the year, person of the year, whatever award he wishes us to create for him.

I do not think he should attempt to pacify, as he did today with questions that were raised and as he has done throughout this week, facilities that are not part of this document, by this smooth talk about how they just have to wait for the Health Advis ory Network, how they just have to wait for the various other project appr oval stages. I have a whole series of questions in terms of specific items. I realize the Liberal Critic also has a number of items too.

I just want to say that in terms of what we are seeing in the capital construction project as the week progresses, we are seeing that the Minister still has not dealt, still has not dealt with a number of major problems in the system. What we are finding is that they are having an accumulative effect. I was talking to people tod ay, staff of the Health Sciences Centre, and they are saying things are backing up through the system.

When the Concordia Hospital does not have appr oval of the facility lis ted in this document for 60 extended treatment beds there are patients backed up in the hal lways, so the Concordia Hospital does not accept emergency patients who are then sent to other hospitals, such as the Health Sciences Centre, where there is overcro wding already. This is all taking place while we have an 85-bed facility alr eady constructed that the Mi nister still has not acted on. It is already constructed.

You know the Min ister likes to have it-he does not like to have it just both ways, he lik es to have it three or four different ways. He tries to suggest there was not major construction under the New Democratic Party. That is not true; it is fact ually inaccurate. * (15 30) Mr . Chairperson, he likes to suggest that it is just a matter of time in which we are dealing with it.

I am suggesting to the Min ister that the Concordia Hospital, the Grace General Hospital and the Winnipeg Municipal Hospital do not have that time, the Health Sciences Centre do not have the time for the Minister to get his act together in terms of the Health Advisory Network or whatever else the Min ister needs to get that into pl ace. The Mi nister said earlier in Estim ates to myself that I do not have to make decisions. We ll, the Min ister I think also feels he does not have to make decisions on some of the major projects that we are faced with in this capital budget.

He has become the ostrich 3175 Mi nister in terms of the Health Advisory Network. He has put his head in the sand. When the Health Advisory Network brings in its report we will deal with the problems. The people, the grass-roots people out there are saying the Minister has to deal with it himself personal ly. They are totally cynical about the process of the Health Advisory Network, Mr . Chairperson. They are asking some very serious questions this week about where we are going in terms of the health care system, because it is be ginning to back up.

The lack of a decision on the Deer Lodge and the Concordia, they are both aff ecting each other. The lack of a decision on Concordia is affect ing emergency rooms throughout the city. The Min ister today talked about this great co ordination that is in place to prevent hospitals shutting down. The Minis ter should know that hospitals-it is only because they are being told they cannot close down that they are not doing that. If that was not in pla ce, we would see not only the Concordia but several other hospitals on an almost daily basis closing down their emergency facilities.

It is all because of the backlog in the system. I would ask the Min ister, I would ask him in all seriousness, in all fairness, if he would provide that information, if he would provide a commitment first of all in these three projects, not to have maybe have a decision by the balance of this fiscal year but to have a decision by this fiscal year. That is decision making. I would ask the Minister if he would also give a message to the other facilities, the ones that have been approved for functional programming as to when the decisions will be made.

They are growing cynical about whether this Minister will in fact make the decisions in tho se particular areas. All the soothing words, all the rhetoric is not going to pacify the people who are out there on a daily basis. I talked to them this morning at the Health Scienc es Centre and we have been talking to them all through this week at the hospitals in this city and across this province. They are asking some very serious questions about the priorities. They are also asking very serious questions about the inaction of the Minister.

There is a feel ing that the Health Advisory Network process, if it had any legitim acy, which it could have, if the Minister had put these decisions on a fast track. They are saying it has very little legitima cy because of the delays of this Minister because he has put his head in the sand and he is putting off major decisions without any kind of time lines whatso ever. We already saw earlier in Estimates this action plan for 1990, the Government promise in terms of health is rapidly disappearing.

We are se eing less than a month and a half now, we have covered less than 40 days now before we do reach 1990 and we do not even have some of the basic decisions. He is only just beginning to get the Health Advisory Network together. He is only just beginning to get the Promotion Trust Fund together . He is only just beginning to deal with the capital needs of various hospitals. He has been too busy out there cutting ribbons, three and four and five times over, recy cling announcements instead of dealing with the health realities that are out there.

Thursday, November 23, 1989 If he would start talking to the grass-roots providers of medical care in this province, start talking to the patients, he would find there is quite a different story than he paints in this comm ittee. It is sad, it is unfortunate, that this Minister has done this consistently and people are saying this week, they are saying to Mem bers of the Opposition, they are saying to the patients, the health care providers are saying to the patients, they are saying this has gone on long enough.

They have no confidence left in terms of this Min ister and his Health Advisory Networks and his Health Promotion Trust Funds, when he cannot get them even in operation. All he can do is recycle announcements. That is not good enough. We are going to be demanding accountabil ity from this Minister, not maybe a decision on those three hospitals, we want a decision by the end of the fiscal year. We want information on the other projects that are lis ted in this document. We want more than just listing them, we want to know what the time frame of this Minister is. This is a five-year document.

We want to know where this Min ister is going to be in year one and year two and year three and year four and year five.- (interjection)- That is if he is still Min ister . I thank the Mem bers for rem inding me that this Min ister might not be Minister for five years. I apologize to the people of Manitoba for suggesting that unfortunate- Mr. Chairman: Order, please; order, please. I have recognized the Ho nourable Minis ter. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend was first elected in 1981 and not only has he learned nothing, he has act ua lly retrogressively progressed.

My honourable friend, the Member for Thom pson (Mr . Ashton), and I apologiz e to the people of Manitoba for his new appointment as the Health Critic and his obvious lack of knowledge, because he does not understand the process that was follo wed whilst he was in an NDP Government from 1981 on. There were commitments on functional planning which were made. Those have no particular time frame. They will be unde rtaken over a period of time. They are su bject to subs tantial discussion and consultation between the Commission and the facility proposing. Let my honourable friend whistle in the wind all he wants.

He has gotten the most comp lete information that has ever been tabled in the capital Estima tes in the one that is before him. The problem is he does not like-oh, well now my honourable friend who asked all the questions appears to be leaving. I would hope he has the decency to stay around. ***** Mr. Chairman: The Member for Thompson, on a point of order. Mr. Ashton: I do not know if it is against Beauchesne's to refer to possible future absences of Mem bers, but I should explain to the Min ister I do have a meeting with the CMHA. I will be attending that for a number of minutes.

I will be reading the Min ister's comments in Hansard. I mean no disrespect to the Member and this comm ittee, but I do have a mee ting which is already scheduled with the CMHA. The Member for Dauphin (Mr . Plohman) will be sitting in on the committee on behalf of the New Democratic Party. My apologies if the Minis ter takes any offence to this, but I will read his comments in Hansard and I will read them in detail. Mr. Chairman: The Mem ber does not have a point of order . ***** Mr.

Orchard: It is unfortunate that my honourable friend does not have the ability to stick around as critic, because I so much enjoy his lack of kno wledge in the system dem onstrated every time he makes a point. Mr . Chairman, the NOP in general and my departing friend in particular , are constantly talking about-we are talking to them at the Health Sciences Centres, or we are talking to them at the Concordia or we are talking to them at the Misericordia or some other institution. We never know who those "thems" are.

For instance, we do not know who the "thems" were that the Leader of the New Democratic Party was talking to when he asked the question about the drain pipe, the Doer drain pipe at the Misericordia Hospital, that allegedly was leak ing radiation, I bel ieve was his question. It was a drain pipe that was installed undersized to drain water, and at the time that my honourable friend, the Leader of the New Democrats (Mr . Doer) after talking to them at the Misericordia, the time he was posing his question in the House, the drain pipe had been fixed for three wee ks.

My honourable friend said he was talking to, my honourable friend the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr . Doer), was talking to some "thems" again at the Mis ericordia Hospital and a sewer broke, Doer's sewer broke. What had happened is the sewer had plugged up, and in attempting to unplug the sewer at the Misericordia, it broke. When the sewer is broken you cannot flush toilets. My honourable fri end, the Leader of the New Democratic Party, in complaining about his sewer pipe, was saying that people were carrying waste pails and dumping them someplace else, and that was a wretched thing to do.

According to the question of the Member for Concordia, the Leader of the New Democrats, the alternative was to leave them in the rooms with the patients. Now surely the New Democratic Party policy is not that when a sewer breaks you leave pails sitting around in the rooms with the patients, but that is what one would conclude. As my honourable friend, the Leader of the New Democratic Party, who got his information from "them" at the Misericordia, was talking, the sewer had been fixed. The difficulty was they did not put his name on the

section of the pipe, Doer's sewer, fixed at his request. I apologize to the MLA for Dauphin (Mr . Plohman) for having to take this information back to his colleagues, but his colleague talks about "them" at 3176

Thursday, November 23, 1989 the Health Sciences Centre who say I have been cutting ribbons at the Health Sciences Centre on the psychiatry building . Well, the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) is misleading the House deliberately or wit hout knowledge, because there has never been a ribbon cutting at the psychiatry facil ity at the Health Sciences Centre. There have been a number of ribbon cuttings of ophthalmo logy upgrade, of bone marrow transplant, and I could go on and on , all up and running , serving the people of Manitoba in a better fashion.

I make no apologies for participating in those ribbon cuttings; they are very good events for the people of Manitoba. My honou rable friend, the Member for Thompson, as Health Critic for the NOP (Mr. Ashton), asks for some decision-making, he says people want decisions. The people of Manitoba got $241 million, a quarter of a billion dollars worth of decisions this week on capital projects. They know where they stand , and they know that this Government, once committed to construction will proceed with construction. My honourable friend'. the Member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton), again has been talking to those illu sory "thems" at the facility who say, well, you know, that simply is not good enough, we simply do not know. *

(1540) I want to tell you, I think I read comments from some of the administrato rs at those various facilities who were very, very pleased with the decisions, the initiatives, the commitments by this Government, knowing that they are going to carried out for the betterment of patient care at each of their respective facilities . Obviously, the individuals quoted in the newspaper were not the phantom "thems" that the NOP so constantly refer to as having talked with . My honourable friend, the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), wants decision-making, and maybe my honourable friend, the MLA for Dauphin (Mr.

Plohman), because he sat around the Cabinet Table unfortunately, the Member for Thompson did not, or maybe it is the other way around-but maybe my honourable friend, the Member for Dauphin, could ask how tough the decision was in 1987, after the Session adjourned with approval to proceed with capital budgets, how easy the decision was by the NOP Cabinet under Howard Pawley, the Member for Dauphin as a Member of it, to freeze the capital budget and not undertake any construction, not undertake any construction from mid-1987 until we were elected on May 9, sworn into Government on May 9, 1988, how easy a decision was that?

In all the time that my honourable friend, the Member for Dauph in, was sitting around a Cabinet Table deciding to freeze capital budgets and not provide new construction in the health care field, his $30 million bridge to nowhere was being built in Selkirk over top of houses as a tourist attraction for the people of Manitoba. How easy was that decision made around the NOP Cabinet Table, to do absolutely nothing in construction of health care facilities but to freeze them? Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend, the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), says this co-ordination between hospitals is a bad thing.

I am pleased that he p~t t_hat on the record, that hospitals in the City of Winnipeg for the last number of months, in co-operation with the Manitoba Health Services Commission and their respective managements, have been co-operating to assure that the greatest level of patient care is available with fluctuating patient loads at the emergency . I am really pleased that the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashto~) has put the NOP position Party policy down, that kind of co-operation is not good among the hospitals and Government in the Province of Manitoba .

I can understand from whence he wants to make that statement because there was none of that kind of co operation when the NOP was in Government. The NOP created an atmosphere of animosity, them and us, hatred and vilification of anybody delivering quality care in the system in Manitoba. There was no co-operation between Government and the various facilities. That co-operation now exists because staff at the Commission are charged with the responsibility to lead that co-operation throughout the health care system in this province and it is working. The NOP policy says no co-operation between hospitals.

That is outrageous, Mr. Chairman, that is genuinely outrageous. Not even my honourable friend, the Liberal Health Critic would make that kind of a statement because he know~ the level of co-operation between management in the ~ospitals is a very positive direction that is working to iron out problems that come up from time to time. My honourable friend, the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), will read these remarks as he has indicated . I want him to read, because he took the time to mention Concordia Hospital.

My honourable friends in the New Democratic Party, and bear in mind Concordia Hospital has been in the old constituency of a former Premier of this province, Mr. Schreyer. There was an approval in 1966 to build Concordia Hospital, a new facility, replacing the existing one in Elmwood . The proposal was for one of 200-plus beds. Approval was changed in 1971. Now 1966 I believe was the years that Premier Roblin was in office . I do not know who the Health Minister was but there was approval provided to Concordia to build 200-plus beds. There was an election in 1969 and the NOP came into power.

Subsequently, in 1971 the approval for Concordia Hospital was not given at over 200 beds it was reduced to 133 beds by an NOP Government in 1971 led by Premier Schreyer, in constituencies held by New Democratic MLAs, some of them in Cabinet. In October 1974, construction was completed on Concordia Hospital at just over 130 beds . In 1980-81 in the Capital Program tabled by the Honourable Bud Sherman, there was a proposal with approval for architectural planning to add 136 beds to Concordia Hospital.

The NOP came into power in 1981 and in May 1982 they approved to add those 136 beds plus an expanded emergency and operating department in 1982. In 1983 they had the bed tower remaining in functional planning. Then in 1984 they approved some ICU expansion, some emergency upgrade and some not-for-admission surgery but there were no additional beds approved in 1984. This is during an NOP Government's time. Having received plans to build a 3177

Thursday, November 23, 1989 200-plus bed hospital in 1966, November 1985 approval was given by letter to-or Ma y in 1986 by letter to Concordia to go to 60 extended-treatment beds. Mr. Chairman, the Leader of the New Democratic Party, the MLA for Concordia (Mr . Doer), is strangely silent as to why the Schreyer administration in 1971 virtually cut the plans for Concordia Hospital in half, why they cancelled an appr oved plan in 1982 for 13 6 more beds.

Now they say it is a dir e emergency that has to be acted upon when they have been Government 15 of the last 20 years that Concordia redeve lopment has been before Government. That is the kind of cynicism that will keep the New Democratic Party as a third Party Opposition Party, as a rump of the Legislature for years to come. The board and the executive of Concordia Hospital know who has cancelled and pared back and cut back on Concordia Hospital in terms of its beds, and it is every time an NDP Government has been elected. Mr.

Chairman, I have had su bstantial discussions with the executive dir ector and the chairman of the board and others at Concordia Hospital. We are prepared, because we recognize that Concordia Hospital is an under sized hospital. It is the smalle st commu nity hospital in Winnipeg. We are prepared with appropriate recommendation to commit to construction. We are prepared to do that, because we believe it would be right if it is recommended to do so. Mr . Chairman, tha t do es not answer why commitments were made at two other facilities and never proceeded with, so we are seek ing that answer as well. Hence,

Schedule IV, Mi sericordia, Concordia and Grace. Decisions will flow from the Health Advisory Network that is provided for in this capital budget. Mr. Cheema: Mr . Chairperson, while we are on the capital expenditure, I raised this one que stion in the House today and the explanation was given to the Min ister. In fact I worked at Health Scien ces Centre and in fact today again I visited. I did not not meet with them, but I met with the nurses, doctors and the orderlies and patients and some of the other people who were outside the Health Sciences Flmergen cy. The Minister is well aware of the situation.

I was told that the Min ister was there sometime maybe six or eight months ago. * (1 550) The situation at the Health Sciences emergency is deplorable. When you enter through the trailer you go to the desk. The desk is a very small area, then on the right side of the desk there is a small room to house two patients, patients mostly are violent and with difficult mental conditions. That room is a major cause of disturbance for the recept ion desk as well as for the patients who are coming in for a simple registra tion.

Then you go to the next, on the right side of the desk there is a small room which could house not more than four to five people at any given time. There are a number of holes in those walls all around. The ventilation is extremely poor. I was told that they are putting in mice traps in that area and that place is for the families of critically ill patients. It think it is very unfortunate that situation exists. Next step you go to the observation unit. There are five beds only .

This hospital is a major hospital, 60,000 minimum patients coming not only from Manitoba, from Northwest Ontario and Saskatchewan for major trauma cases, all the burn patients, and some in very critical conditions. this five-bed observation unit is very, very inadequate. Even the sp ace between two beds you cannot even hardly walk and I think the Min ister knows about the situation. When you turn right in the same building the room for the resuscitation for about five to six patients and that room is again very inadequa te.

Then the other major problem comes that the O/R at the seventh floor and the emergency room and the trauma and everyt hing is handled on the first floor. The time taken from the observation unit to the seventh floor could vary from time to time. All these conditions are really deplorable and not only-it give a really bad image that such a tea ching hospital with all the abilities to deal with the situations and today the physical structure of the building is not acceptable to any person. I am sure the Min ister would agree with that but how are you going to solve the pr oblem here?

As the Mi nister indicated that they have a so-called H2 project where it is going to turn over the whole

section and that will also include the emergency section. Can the Min ister clarify toda y and give assurance to the people at the Health Sciences Centre that something will be done in the near future, or the planning should be there to make sure that this important part of the services are protected, and patients and families are given not only the best care there they are receiving already but under a very comprom ised situation and I think this is overdue? We know that the financial situation, after spending $240 million, it may not be possible this year but something must be done in the near future.

I will give the Minister a chance to clarify so that I can tell not to those "them" but to all those concerned individuals that the Government is moving in the right dir ection. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I have no argument with the inappropria teness of the emergency entrance at the Health Sciences Centre. It is simply not a functional emergency and has not been for the better part of two decades really because prior to 1975 trailers were brought in as a temporary measure.

Let me take my honourable friend step by step through this because I think it is important to understand what kind of commitments have been made in the past. We came into Government in 1977, and I recall the announcement that Bud Sherman made as the Mi nister of Health. It was a three- phase redev elopment of the Health Sciences Centre, inclus ive of this area. Planning began and design began and I think ground broke on the first project which was Children's. Second and third phases were to take in and have this area of the hospital rev amped. It is the HA project in which this is a part of, I indicated PC or HC.

I was not sure of the vernacu lar but the HA project was part of the phases announc ed in 1978. 3178

Thursday, November 23, 1989 Now, Mr . Chairman, because today my honourable friends in the New Democrats are pointing their fingers at this Government who should have resolved that because we have been in Government for 18 months I have to give you a very political an swer. The plan � and the redev elopment of that emergency department went nowhere from 1981 to 1988. I simply tell my honourable friend I was an MLA during the whole time, but I certainly was not in Government. There was no prog ress made in terms of developing the second and third phases at the Health Sciences Centre by the NDP.

There was not progress. The situation is not a good situation. We have as part of the functional pr ogram ming the major redev elopment of Health Sciences Centre as part of the Capital Program. It was last year because we recognized that as being a very critical area for redev elopment. Ha ving said that, it is a major commitment of resource for tha t redev elopme nt because you start with the emergency basically at the ground lev el.- (interjection) - Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have that information.

Let me tell my honourable friend that had there been a solution to the emergency department at the Health Sciences Centre ready for construction this summer , it would have been part of this capital budget. I would have committed and had the comp lete supp ort of my colleagues in Cabinet and Treasury Board and in Government to move with that redev elopment, but the plans have simply not been developed and as soon as they are developed they will be committed to construction. I can give my honourable friend that guarantee.

If it were not for dedicated staff there, many, many tens, if not hundr eds of dedi cated staff, that Emergency Department would not work in those kinds of conditions. The physical layout is bad as my honourable friend has said, et cetera. That is recognized, it has been that way for 15 years. I made the comment in Question Period and I will repeat it here today because I am dead serious. If we have the opportunity to guide the health care system for 15 of the next 20 years, there will be a signif icantly improved health care system for the people of Manitoba.

I simply say to my honourable friend we cannot repair every difficulty in the health care system in 18 months and two capital budgets; it will take a number. I simply tell my honourable friend, with this specific project of emergency at Health Sciences Centre if plans were available we would have committed construction. Such plans, unf ortunately , have not been developed to date. Temporary solutions are very, very difficult to achieve. One of the things I sup pose we could do is add more trailers, but I do not think that is a reasonable approach to do and we have not pursued that as a logical alternative.

We want to develop permanent plans that will fit into the context of a redev elopment of the Health Sciences Centre. When such plans exist and are available this Government will move on them posthaste. I thank my honourable friend for his obs ervation because he is correct. He is correct, it is not an acceptable area of care in a complex the size of the Health Sciences Centre. Mr. Cheema: The other day the Min ister announced the capital expenditur es and certainly in the House there 3179 are certain issues that we are definitely concerned with.

In the press and publ icly , we have otherwise applauded the Minis ter moving in the right dir ection. That is being rational. You cannot criticize if things are happening in the right dir ection because you are in Opposition. I asked him the question very specifically in the House because for him, or for any Government, right now is a good opportunity to look for the direction in the 19 90s and the year 2000. How are we going to save tax dollars in the long run? One of the things that could be done and one aspect is the ambula tory care at Health Sciences Centre.

Seven Oaks has an out-patient surgical expansion that they are going through. They are using the obstetrical floor which was unfortunately abandoned by the previous administration. This could be expanded in the other community hospitals. I was disa ppointed not to see any plan in the capital expenditure even in the long run if the Government has any solid plan to divert the resources towards more ambula tory care. * (16 00) You just have to look at the other jurisdictions and any smart Min istry of Health in Canada is moving towards that. I think Ontario is one of the examples.

The executive dir ector of the Mani toba Health Commission must be aware of all those changes they are making. I will ask the Minister now to reconsider , or if he has a plan, can he explain to us the plan for the ambulatory care facilities for the future so that the money can be saved and we can continue to provide the best possible care to which we are all entitled? In Ma nitoba we are cer tainly not doin g as bad as compared to other places. Mr.

Orchard: First of all, let us not say that it is only because Government commits money at the Health Sciences Centre to a renewed ambulatory care area that ambula tory care is not going on at the Health Sciences Centre and at other hospitals. It is very much a component of each and every hospital. Not-for admission surgeries have been routinely performed at every Winnipeg hospital, incl usive of and including many rural hospitals that go for not-for -admission surgical procedures where there are minor surgeries. I know that happens. That is the way the system is moving.

I guess our mistake is that we did not cut enough ribbons the first time there was a not-for -admission surgery done at Carman hospital, or at Mi sericordia Hospital, or at Seven Oaks Hospital, or at Concordia, or at Victoria, or at Health Sciences Centre, or at Grace, or at St. Bon iface. Then I think maybe the ND P just accused me of cutting too many ribbons. I mean, it is going on. What is proposed in terms of the redev elopme nt at the Health Sciences Centre is a redev elop ment of ambulatory care into one central area.

I think my honourable friend, having worked in a hospital, a significant amount would agree it makes an efficient use of space, resource, and personnel. That is the redevel opment at the Health Sciences Centre. Many areas wherein they provide ambulatory services will

Thursday, November 23, 1989 now be centrally located in the redeveloped area. That will provide, we hope, a significantly improved level of patient care and an opportunity to expand the amount of ambulatory care not-for -admission procedures to be unde rtaken with a revamped facili ty. We are stuck quite frankly on whether we save money, because some of the projections made by the Health Sciences Centre are that with this redevelopment project in ambulatory care, costs will go up, not down, as my honourable friend and I expect .

I generally expect that the costs ought to go down if you proceed to more not-for -admission procedures and more ambulatory care. We are proce eding with the reconstruction from a patient-care aspect at Health Sciences Centre, but we are doing it with the latest figures we have. Once comp leted there is going to be an additional operating cost of almost $3 million a year. We have yet to finalize that because that is part of budgeting in years down the road. Hospitals throughout the city- Victoria has a very, very ambitious not-for- adm ission surgical program, and I think a pretty successful one, too.

It was spearheaded and led by the medical staff there in conjunction with the administration and in discussion with the Commission. I think it is unfortuna te that if we think just because we announce an ambulatory care project at the Health Sciences Centre that magically ambula tory care appears. It has been there all along. It is a growing trend in the system. What we are doing with this redev elopment is putting a significantly improved capital environment, or work environment in place to make the project able to expand and offer a wider variety of services. (Mr .

Helwer, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) I accept my honourable friend's advice because it is sound advice in terms of moving towards as much ambula tory not-for-a dmission care as possible in our institutions. It is that kind of dir ection which will reduce the hotel demand component of the hospital system, which my honourable friend kn ows is a very expensive portion of health care in the Province of Manitoba. There is no question that we may be behind the U.S. system in general in terms of our average length of stay and the not-for-ad mission procedures that we do in Canada versus what is done in the U.S.

Clearly we emulate in our medical system often those kinds of advances. What was an average length of stay in the U.S. probably five or six or seven years ago is where we are toda y. We are simply a little bit behind, and no one argues with early discharge, for instance, of surgical patients. It used to be, I am told, that when one had open-heart surgery there was a 14 -day plus recovery period. Now to my amazement those individuals are often dis charged in as li ttle as eight da ys, and sometimes even seven days which is a phenomenal change in the use of the hotel function of the hospital, if you will.

All of it is still probably delivering better quality care, so more beds and more use of beds in the system is not necessarily indicative of higher quality health care services. Mr. Cheema: Mr . Acting Chairperson, when I was asking the question I am definitely well aware of some of the ambula tory care facilities, but the plan for the future has to be there. If anyone is arguing with the Mi nister of this admin istration that it is going to cost more money, that is wrong.

The initial cost is going to be there when you are expanding the system, but eventually it will save you a lot of money and that is very clear. I think the ambulatory care facility at Health Sciences will definitely be helpful for the recertification of some of the programs. It was expressed by the Ur ology Department that the ambulatory care facilities was one of the requirements for the Royal College and I think that is a positive step. That would be very helpful. I will go to my next question about the Concordia Hospital.

We have heard, definitely in the media and certainly I have talked to the pe ople-I have talked to the executive director at the Concordia Hospital. The problem is twofold there, it is not only one. Only one problem has to be brought to the atten tion-and provide extended care beds, that would relieve the whole pressure, but that is not going to do the whole job. The problem is that you are serving a 10 0,000 population and it is the population of Tr anscona, Elmwood, North and East Kildonan, and East St. Paul. This hospital is on the 59 Highway and in the summer the load increases dramatically .

After Health Sciences Centre, they are the No. 1 hospital that has the maximum emergency care. The space in the emergency unit and the observation unit is not adequate. Prov iding 60 beds will solve the problem but not to a large extent, and we are going to see this problem again. I think what we have to look at is the angle of providing more space for the observation unit, plus giving more room for the emergency care.

On an average, the statistics from the Health Services Commission are clear, 25 personal beds at Concordia are occupied by ch ronic-care patients so by giving 60 beds you may relieve 25 beds, but in the hallways and observation unit space is not going to be decreased. I think that has to be looked at. I think we should look probably at both angles rather than looking at one. * (161 0) The Min ister has said recently in reply to the Mem ber for Thompson (Mr .

Ashton) that the extended care committee will bring the solution by the end of this fiscal year, but in reply to my question at the beginning of Estimates the Mi nister said that the extended care comm ittee will brin g the solution or bring the recom mendation by the end of this month. That was the reason I did not particularly raise the question about the extended care facility in the Question Period, because we have already done it. I was the first one to the tell the Min ister of Health (Mr . Orchard) about the Deer Lodge situation and how we are going to reallocate the resources.

Can the Minis ter confirm today that the extended care committee will bring this recommendation by the end of this month? Mr. Orchard: No, it will not be by the end of this month. It will be in December. Mr. Cheema: Is the Min ister saying the statement he made two weeks ago was not a correct one or there has been-what is the reason for the change now? 3180

Thursday, November 23, 1989 Mr. Orchard: No, the information I gave my honourable friend was accurate as given to me. I simply gave my honourable friend what their best guess was when they were going to report. My honourable friend might be able to go back to Hansard, in May, and I think I probably was saying something around the end of October was the expected time for report when my honourable friend last asked. As a matter of fact it was the third week in November and I give myself that extra week of time by saying the end of this month.

They are indicating that they will not have the report ready until December now. Let me tell my honourable friend I am frustrated over the length of time it takes. I do not particularly enjoy sitting in the House having people ask, when is the Health Advisory Network report coming down? I would like to say the thing was tabled and we have decisions to make because that is what I like to do. When one asks a group of experts to undertake-and recall the risks that I was telling my honourable friend.

I do not control the agenda over there, because there is no majority from the department is a member of any of the task force or any of the committee. We cannot force them to make a decision, either of our liking or of our timing, but the issue is of significant importance to the system. I am prepared to take my weekly shots from the Members of the Opposition, not my friend, my honourable friend is always most kind to me. I am willing to take those shots in the hope that the report will be a thoughtful and compl ete one when received.

I have indicated to my honourable friend the other day, we intend to take action on the report when received. No Gov ernment-as my honourable friend from Thompson wanted a guarantee that we were going to implement every reco mmendation. I mean, it is obvious he has never been around a Cabinet table or around the decision-making of Government because no Government can make that guarantee unle ss they are prepared to absolutely and completely mislead the people to whom they were speaking. Mr.

Cheema: The Min ister is a man of experience in political life but if you watch the news and you listen to the media, the public perception right now is that those 85 beds are empty, and how much it is costing the taxpayers of Manitoba when we have Concordia Hospital. The problem did not develop in a day, but it has been there. I think it is very dang erous for any political Party but certainly even for Opposition, the real Opposition, the Liberal Opposition, more difficult because we want to make sure the taxpayers' dollars are used properly. At the same time, how long can you wait for the decision to be made?

It has already been about six months since those beds were ready, 85 beds. I think the Minister should probably tell those membe rs to facilitate as soon as possible. The other thing is: are we smelling an elec tion? All the announcements are made and now this may not be very positively receiv ed. If we wait until summer and then the holiday time and maybe next year the Premier 3181 (Mr . Filmon) is going to dr aw up the date and that is it.

I want assurance from this Min ister that the report will be ready, at least by the end of this year, so that a decision can be made so we do not have to go through this time after time. The Minister should be able to calculate that, multiply 85 by $300 whatever, it is a lot of money. Taxpayers' dollars are being wasted. I can see, as Opposition Health Critic, that many tax dollars are being thrown away. I want the Min ister to tell me today-gi ve me an exact da te whatever, today or tomorrow if it is possible. Mr. Orchard: That is exactly the assurance I would like to give my honourable friend.

My honourable friend talks about the dolla rs that are being wasted because some 85 beds are being occupied in Concordia or wherever in the system, and that all we have to do is move those patients to the 85 beds at Deer Lodge and we are not wasting the money at Concordia or anything. Mr . Acting Chairman, does that presume that when you staff those beds and feed those patients at Deer Lodge, you do not have costs? We ll, of course you do. We are into a debate that is not even worth being in because (

a) there is budget appr oved for the operation of those beds at Deer Lodge. So money is not the issue. Appropriate use is the issue, and I have gone through this time and time again, and I will go through it again. My honourable friend wants to be a responsible critic and a responsible Opposition Mem ber. I give him credit from time to time; he actually is, not all the time. (interjection)- I mean, he has insulted me a couple of times, you kno w. Anyway, I do not mean to make light of the issue. You have to appreciate the context of Deer Lodge Hospital.

Deer Lodge Hospital is probably with the redev elopment, emerged as one the premier rehabilit ative and seniors facilities in Canada. I do not think there is any question about that. It has been a significant investment, not by the Province of Manitoba, it was how the capital dollars came through the federal Government through an agreement that was struck in 1979 and 1980. So when my honourable friend the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr .

Doer) says, "we built the Deer Lodge Hospital," again he is either deli berately or otherwise trying to mislead the people of Manitoba because that was the federal Government's capital contribution. We supervised the construction, but it was not our capital dollars. Our resp onsibility is to operate that facility and operate those beds. That is the largest cost in health care.

Capital decisions are the easy ones because you can make them today, the bills do not come in for a year or two or two and a half years later, the additional operating costs do not come in for an extended period of time, so you are a hero today. As I said before last year, I would be the most popular Health Mi nister in the Province of Manitoba simply by announcing a billion dollars worth of capital projects and every body would be happy, with few excep tions,

Thursday, November 23, 1989 until the bills come in. I want to sh are with my honourable friend just one figur e. We have committed $246 million worth of capital construction projects this year. The operating costs that will be accruing to the system in 19 91- 92 with compl etion of those facilities are $60 million, inclu sive of principal, interest and extra operating costs because of increased function, because 185 are new personal care home beds.

The $245 million are not costing us anything while the construction goes on, but there is $60 million of additional costs awaiting us in '9 1- 92. * (16 20) When Deer Lodge was built with the federal Govern ment's dol lars, not the provincial Govern ment's dollars as was alluded to by my honourable friend, the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr . Doer). We assumed the operating costs. Those 8

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-77
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 77.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ccb191efe4146e68d29af76840659dbe7eb11d01

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