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December 12, 1989

34th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

APPLES

VISITOR

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

RETAIL STORE HOURS

NORTHERN ONTARIO HERITAGE FUND

MEDIA DAY

NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT

4-H CLUB

CO-OPERATIVE HOUSING

HIGHWAY SAFETY

PLASTICS RECYCLING

PRESS RELEASE

ORAL QUESTIONS

RETAIL STORE HOURS

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

RETAIL STORE HOURS

HEALTH INSURANCE

TOURISM INDUSTRY

HOSPITAL SERVICES

PLASTICS RECYCLING

PROPOSED HOSPITAL MERGER

PROPERTY ASSESSMENT

TRANSIT SERVICES

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE

ELECTRICITY DEMAND AND SUPPLY

HAMILTON HARBOUR

REGIONAL MUNICIPALITY OF NIAGARA

PETITIONS

ANIMALS FOR RESEARCH

NATUROPATHY

FRENCH-LANGUAGE SERVICES

LICENSING OF TOBACCO PRODUCTS

ORDERS OF THE DAY

COURTS OF JUSTICE AMENDMENT ACT, 1989

EMPLOYER HEALTH TAX ACT, 1989

The House met at 1332.

Prayers.

APPLES

Mr Miller: Mr Speaker, the apples that you see on our desks today are the product of Tom and Joan Haskett’s apple farm at Vittoria, and in the spirit of Christmas they are put there by the member for Norfolk. The variety is Empire. I just want to bring that to your attention, Mr Speaker.

VISITOR

The Speaker: Before I call the first order of business, I glance to the east gallery and see a former member sitting there. I would like you to join me in welcoming Ed Good, formerly the member for Waterloo North.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

RETAIL STORE HOURS

Mr Kormos: If indeed it is true that an apple a day keeps the doctor away, I hope it is not too late for this one. I am hoping it will do the trick.

This Sunday past was about as cold a Sunday as we have had down in the Niagara Peninsula and it was made even chillier by a biting wind. Notwithstanding that, large numbers of people, members of the United Food and Commercial Workers International Union, turned out along with their spouses and children, both big kids and little kids, and friends and neighbours to picket those A&P stores that were brazenly and openly defying the law of the province, A&P stores that were remaining open on Sunday requiring their workers to work on Sunday notwithstanding that we supposedly, and I say that very carefully, have laws against that sort of thing.

Without hesitation and with some pride, I joined those workers. Welland-Thorold and the communities around Welland-Thorold are communities that hold families in high regard, communities that have high regard for their churches, and there are many of them, communities that consist of workers who fought long and hard to make sure that there would be a five-day workweek. Now we see A&P, apparently with the support of this government, forcing workers to work on Sunday. It is wrong and those workers who picketed knew it. It is time this government took positive action to make sure it does not happen again.

NORTHERN ONTARIO HERITAGE FUND

Mr Harris: Now that the first annual report of the northern Ontario heritage fund has been tabled, it is clear the Peterson Liberals have again broken their word. They promised to spend $30 million a year for 12 years through the heritage fund. In the minister’s own words, “Its major goal is to promote and stimulate economic development in northern Ontario by providing financial assistance for single-industry communities experiencing economic disruption.” Yet we now know they did not spend one dime of the initial $30 million in support of this goal during its first year of operation. In fact, they spent less than $950,000, or about three per cent of the entire budget.

Few places need more help than Temagami. Last year the fund invested the grand total of $45,000 in the entire Temagami region. Yet huge companies like MacMillan Bloedel, in my riding I might add, Normick Perron and Westinghouse Canada each received $100,000 as small business incentives. Analysis also shows that virtually every recipient qualified under programs that existed before the fund.

The fund has now grown to $60 million. I have no doubt they will eventually spend this money. They will make all kinds of announcements as we near the next election. But where is the vision? Where is the leadership and the support for the exciting new tourism, transportation and economic restructuring initiatives that were so boldly promised by this fund? It was not created to simply rehash and dole out titbits from old programs at election time.

MEDIA DAY

Mr Ballinger: I am pleased to rise in the Legislature today and inform the members that today is Media Day at Queen’s Park for the press of my riding of Durham-York.

Durham-York is made up of five uniquely different municipalities within the regions of Durham and York which share many common features, including the type of media which covers the day-to-day life of our communities of Georgina, Brock, East Gwillimbury, Uxbridge and Whitchurch-Stouffville.

Joining us in the members’ east gallery are representatives from various newspapers, cable TV and local radio stations who do an important job of reporting and informing the residents of each of these respective regions with the up-to-date news, sports, community events, as well as some of the more provincial and national stories.

Communities the size that I represent rely totally on the dedication and community interest of these weekly newspaper, cable TV and radio stations to cover and promote local events. My communities would be lost without them.

Durham-York Media Day is an opportunity for me, as their provincial member, to provide an interesting afternoon at Queen’s Park that normally cannot occur due to the nature and importance of the role that they carry out on behalf of their communities. It is my hope that these people find the afternoon at Queen’s Park not only entertaining, but also educational.

NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT

Mr Pope: I rise today to repeat a call that I made to the Minister of Transportation (Mr Wrye) two months ago for a clearer transportation policy for northern Ontario. We have seen recently in the news media an extended decline in mineral exploration in northern Ontario, particularly northeastern Ontario, and I say to the Minister of Mines (Mr O’Neil), with no programs and no real incentives to encourage increased mining exploration in the Mining Act.

We have seen actual mines in production closing down in Latchford, Kirkland Lake and Wawa, with no alternative employment for the miners and for the communities there. We have seen mills closing down because of the softwood lumber tax that this government participated in. We have no program for diversification or modernization of the mills.

We have seen the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission pull the tracks out of Timmins. We have seen Air Canada service with-drawn from northeastern Ontario. We have seen no noticeable improvement in highway transportation north of North Bay. We see the ONTC, Ontario’s development railroad, withdrawing services from northern Ontario because of the closure of the mines. That is their excuse for reducing service.

What is clearly required of this government is a comprehensive transportation policy for rail, air and railroad transportation to benefit all of northern Ontario.

4-H CLUB

Mrs Sullivan: Across Ontario, 1989 4-H agricultural projects have now been completed and awards nights have been held to recognize the achievements of 4-H members. Today I would like to pay tribute to all 4-H members and leaders across the province, and in particular I would like to champion the work of 4-H clubs in my area, Halton region, which had outstanding success this year at the Royal Agricultural Winter Fair.

The Scotiabank Hays Classic at the Royal Fair attracted some 250 4-Hers from across Canada. Halton’s 4-H team was judged the premier club based on showmanship, conformation and herdsmanship. Halton’s entrants placed first in showmanship, in the summer yearling Holstein class and in the Jersey calf class.

In the National Beef Heifer Show, a Halton 4-Her was named Grand Champion Showman and she also exhibited the champion Simmental heifer. Halton also had a strong showing in the Queen’s Guineas and the Lawara trophy competitions.

Wherever they are, 4-Hers become self-confident, knowledgeable, active members of the community who have learned to do by doing. I am pleased to honour them today.

CO-OPERATIVE HOUSING

Mrs Grier: I rise to thank the Minister of Housing (Mr Sweeney). Unusual though that occasion might be, I want to thank him for allocation of co-operative homes in my riding of Etobicoke-Lakeshore. In his announcement on Friday the minister announced that BRC Workers Housing Co-operative, Marilyn Bell Housing Co-operative, New Toronto Housing Co-operative and Westshore Village Co-operative would all receive an allocation totalling 490 units.

I make the point because there is a real fear in the co-operative housing movement at this time that this government’s commitment to that form of housing is diminishing. The Czechs talk about the Czech spring in 1968. There is the sense in the co-op housing movement that the period of the accord between the Liberals and the New Democrats was the equivalent of the Czech spring when it comes to progressive issues such as co-op housing.

Co-op housing is a form of tenure that allows people to have control over their own accommodation. It allows tenants to have a say in how that housing will be managed. It allows people to have affordable housing that remains affordable because the increases in the rental allowance that is paid to the co-op is determined by the members themselves and by their demands.

I am very proud that in Etobicoke-Lakeshore we are going to have some new co-ops and I urge the minister to make sure that this allocation is only the beginning of a major commitment in Metropolitan Toronto.

HIGHWAY SAFETY

Mr J. M. Johnson: I would like to bring to the attention of this Legislature, especially the Solicitor General (Mr Offer), a very serious highway safety problem that exists in my riding of Wellington.

This morning I received a letter from fire chief Alfred Slade, township of Puslinch, county of Wellington, expressing serious concern about the lack of Ontario Provincial Police coverage for the area of Highway 401 which passes through the township of Puslinch. I understand that the police detachment serving this area is the third busiest in Ontario, but the level of its manpower does not reflect this fact. As a result, Puslinch township fire department personnel are called upon, when accidents occur on the highway in this area, to perform traffic control duties.

Chief Slade states, and I will quote directly from his letter: “Last winter we had a 40-car pileup on the 401 and only one police officer. Consequently, I had six of our firefighters tied up controlling traffic. The policemen we have in this area are terrific, but they can only do so much.... What we need is a traffic squad. With all the chemicals and hazardous materials travelling the highway today, sooner or later the fan is going to get hit and somebody will have to answer -- ‘Why?’”

Hopefully the Solicitor General will take some positive action in response to Chief Slade’s concerns.

PLASTICS RECYCLING

Mr Daigeler: I would like to congratulate the Minister of the Environment (Mr Bradley), together with the Society of the Plastics Industry of Canada and Trans-Ontario Plastics Recovery Inc for the completion of a report entitled Barrhaven Demonstration Project.

This study was done in my riding of Nepean. It concluded that plastics recovery for recycling is feasible for communities where the blue box program exists. The report will be useful to municipalities considering such a move. The communities of Mississauga, Guelph and Toronto also collect plastics in their blue boxes. The Barrhaven report should enable additional municipalities to undertake plastics recycling.

Although plastics are only a small portion of landfill sites by weight, by volume they can be as much as 28 per cent of landfill. Municipalities concerned with the costs of plastics recycling should consider not only the revenue generated by curbside pickup, but the environmental and economic costs of additional landfill sites.

Again, I wish to congratulate the minister and I hope he will work actively with other municipalities to include plastics recovery in their blue box programs, as was done in my riding of Nepean.

PRESS RELEASE

Hon Mr Offer: I rise on a point of privilege, Mr Speaker. Today I received a news release on the stationery of the Ministry of the Solicitor General. This release came via Canada News-Wire under date 11 December. I would like to indicate to the House that the information contained within this release did not emanate from my ministry.

I have received information from Canada News-Wire that due to a clerical error at Canada News-Wire Toronto, copies of a press release issued 11 December by the Ontario Teachers’ Federation were inadvertently delivered to Queen’s Park Press on Ontario Ministry of the Solicitor General letterhead.

Canada News-Wire has indicated that it is solely responsible for the error and apologizes to the Ministry of the Solicitor General and to the Ontario Teachers’ Federation for any embarrassment caused.

The Speaker: Order. I listened carefully to the member raising a point of privilege, however, it would appear to me that it would not be a prima facie case of privilege. I cannot see where there would be any contempt of the House. There may be contempt of the ministry, and I am sure that the minister can deal with that internally or externally.

ORAL QUESTIONS

RETAIL STORE HOURS

Mr B. Rae: I want to go back to the Attorney General again today and try to ask him a simple question as to why it is that, while

section 8 of the act involving retail stores makes it very clear that the Attorney General has the discretion to apply to the courts for an injunction when he has reason to believe that the law is going to be broken, he is not gathering information with respect to which stores are planning to open on Sunday and he is not himself bringing an injunction to make sure that these stores remain closed.

Hon Mr Scott: The answer is the same as I gave yesterday.

Mr B. Rae: I wonder if the Attorney General can stand in the House and tell us what is the average length of time that it takes for a case to be heard in the county of Peel and in York region? Can he tell us how long he thinks it will be before any charges that are laid in the month of December 1989 are heard?

Hon Mr Scott: It depends on whether the accused is in custody or not, whether it is a bylaw enforcement matter or not, or whether the matter is given urgency by the presiding judge.

Mr B. Rae: I can tell the Attorney General, from my experience of cases that I have known in York region and in Peel, that cases are being delayed by as much as a year and a year and a half before they are heard; that in some instances cases are taking so long to come to judges that judges themselves are throwing them out on constitutional grounds. That argument is being applied with respect to many charges that are coming before judges.

I want to ask the Attorney General, does he not realize that the law is seen as a joke, that it is seen as a scoff law, that its enforcement is seen as a joke, that his actions are seen as a joke and his failure to bring an injunction sends the clearest possible signal to these stores that they --

The Speaker: There seemed to be about three supplementaries in that.

Hon Mr Scott: I did not hear any question. I heard sort of a windup, but there was no question.

The Speaker: New question, the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr B. Rae: I think we have seen arrogance. The question was, does the Attorney General not realize-

Hon Mr Scott: I did not hear any question.

Mr B. Rae: I have seen arrogance in my time but never such --

Hon Mr Scott: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: If the honourable member would like to put a question, I would be delighted to answer.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Have you all finished? New question.

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

Mr B. Rae: My question is to the Minister of Housing. I would like to ask the minister this question. There are now 42,000 families on the waiting list for assisted housing. There are at least 54,000 applications from co-op housing groups and nonprofit groups throughout the province for funding from the ministry for the future. Now, the ministry has just completed its program, called Homes Now, with its most recent announcement with respect to nonprofit housing. I want to ask the minister, does the government of Ontario intend to bring in a new program, an Ontario program, funded exclusively by the Ontario government, for the funding of nonprofit and co-operative housing in Ontario?

Hon Mr Sweeney: I would remind my honourable friend that at the present time Ontario is the only province in Canada that has such a program. In fact, over the three-year period covering 1988-89-90, it will be producing more nonprofit housing than all the rest of the country put together. So Ontario is doing a lot.

I would also point out to the honourable member that the capital cost of that program is in excess of $3 billion, and the accumulated subsidy cost of that program when it reaches maturity in 1993 will be in excess of $900 million, compared with $150 million when this government was formed in 1985. So there has been tremendous progress there.

Obviously, the government is going to have to look very carefully at its total housing policy and total housing initiatives over the next year or so to determine where it goes from here. That decision has not yet been made.

Mr B. Rae: No one denies the fact that Ontario has a program which was negotiated during the period of the accord. No one denies the fact that there is a need. While the Attorney General (Mr Scott) is laughing and showing his general contempt for the rest of the world, I can tell him that there are, in fact, 20,000 homeless people in Toronto, as well as the tens of thousands more who are underhoused and poorly housed, which led to the view in his report in 1988 there are some 200,000 households that are caught in the cycle of homelessness.

I want to ask the minister why he would not be announcing a continuing commitment from the government of Ontario so that people could know that in fact their applications were going to be considered and that their place on the waiting list meant something, rather than simply meaning that they are on a waiting list for nowhere.

Hon Mr Sweeney: The honourable member was correct when he said that the bulk of the 30,000 units for Homes Now have been allocated. I believe the last figure I saw was that 28,000 out of the 30,000 have been allocated. But I am sure the honourable leader of the official opposition is also aware of the fact that this is a long way from completed projects. He will be well aware of the fact that many of these allocations were given in 1988 and are in terms under construction now. The allocations which were just given yesterday, in many cases, will not be completed during 1990 or even into 1991, so we still have a long way to go on the existing program.

What I tried to suggest to him in my first answer was that we have not yet formulated the next step in the entire affordable shelter program. That is part of the process that is coming up. But right now we are in the middle of a very ambitious program. The 30,000, I would remind him, started just last year, and it is going to take us a couple of years to work that one through the entire system. We have a couple of years to decide what the next step is going to be and what form it is going to take. That decision has not yet been taken.

Mr B. Rae: If the minister just said the ministry has a couple of years, that is absolute nonsense. It does not have a couple of years. We have a whole co-operative and nonprofit movement out there with plans on the books, with plans that are ready to go. We have the cost of land spiralling and escalating in many parts of the province to the point where land is no longer affordable for many people. I cannot believe the minister honestly believes he has a couple of years.

Let me ask the minister, when he has 42,000 people on a waiting list, when he has 54,000 applications in, is he seriously saying he can afford to wait one or two years before he announces his program for the future?

Hon Mr Sweeney: What I tried to suggest to the honourable leader was that the program that is currently in place will take at least two years to work its way through. I am not suggesting that we wait until that one is complete before we start the next one. I recognize he is saying that there has to be some lead time, and decisions will be made in sufficient lead time, as we have all the way along.

I would also remind the honourable leader of the official opposition that we have an ongoing cost-shared program with the federal government which is providing somewhere in the neighbourhood of 5,000 to 6,000 units a year. We are still working on that. That is part of the process as well.

The third thing I would point out is that I have met with the nonprofit association and the co-operative association and indicated to them that, along with these kinds of projects, I want to work with them with a wider base of projects that are going to provide affordable housing. The nonprofit one is not the only route we are going. We are going to continue to go that route, but we want to expand it even beyond that into other types of housing.

RETAIL STORE HOURS

Mr Brandt: With some degree of trepidation, I have a question for the Attorney General. In the spirit of Christmas -- I do not want to upset him and I do not want to get him angry -- I simply want to know if the Attorney General is aware that York region has indicated that any charges that are laid in connection with the breaking of the law as it relates to Sunday openings will probably not be heard until February 1991.

Does that concern the Attorney General, and if it does concern him, what action does his ministry intend to take either to assist with the particular backlog of cases or to help correct the situation, which is obviously not a particular problem that we can live with here in the province of Ontario?

Hon Mr Scott: If I may say so without ruining the interim leader’s leadership chances, that is an excellent question.

It is essentially the same question as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr B. Rae) asked, but the trouble with his questions was, if it is going to rain tomorrow, that is bad management on the part of the government; if the sun comes up, it is because it was mentioned in the accord. So I am really delighted to get this question from the honourable member and to explain that in Newmarket, which is the regional town for York region, there is a significant backlog problem which has existed for five or six years which leads to out-of-custody cases being tried about a year or 11 months down the pike.

A year ago we established delay reduction committees in the six communities in Ontario which have this kind of delay problem, this kind of historic problem which is connected with very large growth in those communities. Those delay reduction committees, under the leadership of the local judge, have been working well. Because disposition rates have improved and delay times have been reduced, often very significantly, we have put new resources into those regions. The honourable member will know, I believe, that two new judges and three new crown attorneys have been promised for Newmarket. Those positions are being filled at the moment and we hope to have those new resources in place shortly.

I am very grateful for the question because it allows me to remind honourable members about this delay reduction.

Mr Brandt: The Attorney General is going to be even more grateful for the supplementary.

The supplementary is, recognizing that judges have rather arbitrarily established 15 months as the period of time in which they will simply dismiss charges because of the charter reservations that they have and the consequences of those delays, can the minister give any assurance to this House that charges now being laid by the police forces in York and other regions where there are court backlogs, will be heard, certainly within that 15-month time frame or earlier if at all possible, so that those who are illegally opening on a Sunday, who are breaking the law, who are causing havoc at the moment with respect to Sunday shopping laws will, in fact, be prosecuted in the appropriate manner?

Hon Mr Scott: I can give the honourable member the assurance he wants. I would just do so adding one reservation. The honourable member refers, and we see it in the press, to suggestions that judges have picked 15 months as the time, if there is delay, beyond which will lead to a dismissal of the prosecution. In fact, the appeals that have been taken from those judgements to the Court of Appeal for Ontario are not supporting that conclusion, and in the circumstances, when the results of the appeals are looked at, it cannot be concluded that there is any arbitrary time or, indeed, that the time is 15 months.

But I am very conscious of what the honourable member says. I think we can give the assurance that he requires. This government has made plain to communities which, for demographic reasons, have big population increases that if they will establish delay reduction committees to work with the bench within existing resources, when those committees begin to produce results, as they have been doing -- delay times in Ottawa were reduced from 15 months to nine with no new resources -- new resources will be provided, as they have been in York region.

Mr Brandt: The Attorney General said some time ago, “Persistent violators will be dealt with in accordance with the provisions of the legislation. The act now permits the Attorney General or a municipality to apply for injunctive relief against persistent violators. I have no doubt that this route will be pursued soon, as a sufficient case can be made for so doing.”

I would suggest to the Attorney General that over 80 stores which have chosen to be open over the course of the past few weeks, illegally, support the position that he took in his statement that a case can now be made to vigorously pursue these particular individuals and corporations.

Would the Attorney General share with this House whether in fact it is his intention to become more actively involved, as is his right under Bill 113, I believe it is, but

section 8 of that bill? Will the Attorney General take the option that is available to him and vigorously pursue this matter in order to stop the kind of illegal openings that are happening each and every Sunday, and have for the past few weeks?

Hon Mr Scott: As I indicated to the honourable member yesterday, and presumably will have to indicate every day until the Christmas shopping season is over, we have decided what the appropriate role for the Attorney General under

section 8 is, and what role is appropriate for the municipalities.

The honourable member will be glad to know that the municipalities in southern Ontario have recognized that, and the municipality of Metropolitan Toronto and the regional municipality of Peel have commenced those proceedings. We have indicated repeatedly, and I am delighted to emphasize again, that if there are difficulties that the regional municipalities have, as there appear to be in one instance as a result of the Honourable Mr Justice Potts’s decision, we will be delighted to support the municipalities in advancing their case.

As I said the other day, I have communicated that in written form to Chairman Tonks in Metropolitan Toronto and I make the same pledge to any other community that has commenced or is prepared to commence an injunction proceeding. We will support them vigorously.

HEALTH INSURANCE

Mr Brandt: My question is to the Minister of Health. As the minister is aware, as of 1 January 1990, this government will be introducing an employer health levy to cover what was previously known as the OHIP premiums that were paid by individuals. Some of these individuals who previously were paying their own premiums under OHIP will no longer be required to do so as of 1 January 1990.

If those individuals, who are receiving bills now for the first quarter of 1990, refuse to pay and for whatever reason end up in a hospital in January, February, March or April 1990, the minister has indicated that they will have access to the health system. She has not indicated who will pay for an individual who has refused to pay the OHIP premium for the first part of 1990. Could she now clarify for the House who will pay that particular charge if the individual ends up in the hospital or requiring the attention of a physician in that period of time?

Hon Mrs Caplan: As I begin the answer to this question -- the leader of the third party has asked this question before -- I would encourage him and members opposite not to create confusion around this matter, and I will try to be very clear.

All residents of Ontario will have access to health care services as of 1 January and beyond as we go through the transitional period, as we move from premiums to taxation as a method of funding health care services. Clearly, all residents who receive their last premium notice prior to 1 January are expected to follow the instructions accompanying their last premium notice, as is the reality today.

Mr Brandt: The minister in this House has said repeatedly that she wants factual information to be shared with the 9.5 million citizens of Ontario. In the interest of pursuing that common goal of having factual information, will the minister state simply -- and remove from her vocabulary the word “access,” because I am not at the moment asking a question about access to health facilities; I am asking a question about payment upon access to those facilities. If an individual refuses to pay the OHIP premium because in his mind he is being double billed, will he in fact be billed in the first quarter of 1990?

Hon Mrs Caplan: I want to say to the leader of the third party that I believe the Treasurer (Mr R. F. Nixon) very ably, as he always has and l am sure always will, has answered the question regarding the issue that the member opposite raises, and, I think, fully to the satisfaction of most objective observers. For the interest of the leader of the third party, we are communicating directly with residents regarding payment of their last premium notice during this period of transition. I would say to him again that I would encourage him not to create confusion on this matter and I would state again that in fact all residents will have access to health services in the province of Ontario.

Mr Brandt: Somehow or another, in spite of my attempts to remove the word “access,” which is a different question entirely, the minister has included that in her response. Let me try the question another way. Since she has consistently taken the position that doublebilling is not part of the format of the introduction of the new employer health levy, maybe the minister could indicate to the people of Ontario, in order to keep this information factually correct, how much additional money she is collecting as a result of the change in system from OHIP premiums to the employer health levy.

And before she answers the question, I am going to tell the people of Ontario it is well in excess of $400 million.

Hon Mrs Caplan: I say to the leader of the third party that I am proud of the initiative of this government to convert from a premium to a tax levy. I would say to him that it results in a $1-billion tax cut in the pockets of the taxpayers, the people of this province. That is very fair. It was recommended by the Social Assistance Review Committee report on welfare reform, and he should be supporting this as well.

Mr Brandt: It’s not a tax cut and you know it. Don’t mislead the people of Ontario. That’s nonsense.

Interjections.

Mr Brandt: Answer the question for once.

Hon Mrs Caplan: I would ask him to stop trying to confuse the people of this province. We are committed to the principles of medicare --

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Cousens: If anybody is trying to confuse them, it’s you and the Liberals.

Hon Mrs Caplan: -- which are, and I will spell them out for him, universality, reasonable access --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Are you finished wasting the time? Order.

TOURISM INDUSTRY

Mr Hampton: My question is for the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. The minister will understand that tourism is a very important economic activity in northwestern Ontario. Tourist operators and community representatives regularly attend sport shows in several midwestern United States cities in order to market our tourism activities. They are somewhat dismayed, however, that the Ministry of Tourism and Recreation does not attend many of these sports shows and does not offer marketing assistance or information assistance in order to attract tourist dollars from the US midwest into northwestern Ontario.

Can the minister explain why his ministry has abandoned many of these sports shows and does not perform an aggressive marketing role on behalf of tourism in the northwest?

Hon Mr Black: I should first of all tell the member that his facts are incorrect. I am not sure where he is getting them, but he is obviously not getting the correct facts. My ministry is continuing, as it has in the past, to support tourism operators from across this province. It is continuing, through the Ontario travel association program, to provide moneys for regional marketing programs. It is continuing to do marketing at regional trade shows across the United States.

Through some of the television and radio advertising we do in the northern and northeastern United States, those states which border northwestern Ontario, we are continuing to feature northern Ontario and northern Ontario destinations in our advertising. I am not sure where the member gets his facts, but they are not correct.

Mr Hampton: Maybe it would help if the minister attended meetings when the Northwestern Ontario Associated Chambers of Commerce come to Queen’s Park to talk to cabinet. They made it very clear to the Premier (Mr Peterson) and they made it very clear to the Minister of Northern Development (Mr Fontaine) that they are quite upset that the Ministry of Tourism and Recreation does not attend these sports shows. The ministry used to attend them. The ministry used to perform a very valuable, specific function; that is, explain regulations.

Whether they be Ministry of Natural Resource regulations or whether they be accommodation regulations, the ministry used to explain these types of things to potential clients, but the ministry is no longer there. So representatives of the Northwestern Ontario Tourism Association --

The Speaker: Are you coming to your question?

Mr Hampton: -- and the chambers of commerce want to know why the ministry is not there and why they have to do its job for it.

Hon Mr Black: I am pleased to tell the member that the Ministry of Tourism and Recreation still has a strong presence at trade shows in the United States. I will repeat the comments I made earlier: We continue to provide marketing support through several media. Now surely the member would not be expecting my ministry to continue to do things as it did two or three decades ago. Times change, marketing strategies change, the tourism market is changing and we need to keep up to date. I want the member to know that I have travelled extensively in northwestern Ontario since my appointment.

I have met with tourism operators from across the northwest and will continue to do so. We are happy to work in partnership with them.

HOSPITAL SERVICES

Mr Eves: I have a question of the Minister of Health. In the absence again today of the Premier (Mr Peterson), I would like to return the minister to the issue of the Stella Lacroix inquest and the coroner’s jury’s recommendations. On 12 October 1989, the Premier said in this House, and I quote:

“As I understand what the Minister of Health has just said, there is a system in place but the system was not used....”

“So the question is: Why was the system which is in place and, to the best of my knowledge, functions well most of the time, not used?...The beds were available....The question is, why was it not used?”

Does the minister still stand by the Premier’s statement of 12 October, and hers on many subsequent occasions, that there was a province-wide, emergency care hotline number and system in place and Dr Nesdoly and everybody else was to blame for not using the system?

The Speaker: Thank you.

Mr Eves: Because that is what he said. I just quoted what he said. Will the minister not now stand up and admit that she was wrong?

Hon Mrs Caplan: I think it is very important when we discuss these issues that we recognize that the existing system, and we refer to our health care system as a system, we say that it is good. In fact, we know that some of the features of the existing system are that it is unco-ordinated and fragmented, and we are working together to develop networks. What the Premier was referring to was the letter, which I tabled in this House, from the Toronto General Hospital outlining the system that it had in place. The Toronto General Hospital, at the inquest, stood by as factual the information in its letter. I think that letter was presented to this House in good faith.

Mr Eves: The question is not whether or not the letter was presented to this House in good faith. Nobody is questioning that. Vickery Stoughton, the author of the letter, himself admitted during the coroner’s inquest that there is no provincial-wide system and there is no hotline. It is an emergency phone in the emergency department of the hospital. That is all it is.

Interjection.

Mr Eves: That is not what she said. I quote from her on 12 October --

The Speaker: Order. I am afraid the member is having to shout for some reason. Perhaps the member would place his supplementary.

Mr Eves: I am shouting to get through the minister’s thick skull.

The Speaker: Perhaps the member would just want to remain seated and not ask a supplementary, because we do have a standing order that we do not like abusive and insulting language. Do you have a supplementary?

Mr Eves: Mr Speaker, first of all, I would like to withdraw the last comment. Second of all, I would like to ask my supplementary.

The minister has said in this House on many occasions that we have a world-class health care system. I think that when the Premier and she herself, as Minister of Health, go out of their way to make disparaging remarks in public about a member of the medical profession, which have subsequently been proved by a coroner’s jury to be inaccurate and unfactual, the very least she can do as Minister of Health is stand up and be world-class herself, admit she made a mistake and publicly apologize. For the last time, will she do that now?

Hon Mrs Caplan: The quote that the member has read into the record in the House today is a direct quote from the letter from the Toronto General Hospital, which it stands by as being completely accurate and factual.

Mr Eves: It’s not factual.

Hon Mrs Caplan: It was presented to this House in good faith.

Mr Eves: It’s not what the coroner’s jury found.

Hon Mrs Caplan: I would say to him that the evidence before the coroner’s jury was that in fact that information --

Mr Eves: You’re wrong again, Elinor. Are you on vacation or what?

The Speaker: Order. I would remind the member for Parry Sound of standing order 20(b). Every member has the right to be heard without interruption by any other member except on a point of order.

Hon Mrs Caplan: That information was made available from the Toronto Hospital to hospitals outside of the province. The Huronia District Hospital had that information and Dr Nesdoly said that he knew of the number and decided not to call. Those were the facts. I had never questioned medical judgement. That letter only stated what was in existence at the Toronto General Hospital.

I would say to the member that I announced last June our intention to establish regional numbers to develop a network to share information. That is what we announced in June; that is what we are moving to implement. I would say to the member opposite that it is very important, when we talk about the health care system today, to realize that every hospital has its own system and that the health care system, we believe, can be improved by developing networks, sharing information and working together to provide the information --

The Speaker: Thank you.

Hon Mrs Caplan: -- that doctors, hospitals and consumers need to make informed choices.

The Speaker: New question. The member for Nepean.

Mr Daigeler: We will see whether my question will elicit as many interjections as the previous one.

The Speaker: And to which minister?

PLASTICS RECYCLING

Mr Daigeler: It is to the Minister of the Environment, and he is always a pleasure with the opposition.

I was very pleased to learn that my own neighbourhood of Barrhaven was recently the subject of a Ministry of the Environment study on plastics recycling. This study found that plastics recovery is feasible through the blue box program. However, some people in Ottawa-Carleton and also, I understand, in the Toronto area, are raising questions about the economic viability of plastics recycling. Can the minister comment on these questions?

Hon Mr Bradley: Yes, I certainly can. I want to commend those who have been involved in the Barrhaven project because I think it was particularly useful. There are several communities in Ontario that are involved in plastics recycling -- Mississauga and Guelph and here in Toronto -- as well as Barrhaven. The demonstration project, certainly in my view, proves that such a project can work without requiring on-board compaction equipment and with only a small amount of extra time.

Mr Sterling: You going to pay for the loss, Jimmy?

Hon Mr Bradley: This is a good point. I am glad the member for Carleton has brought this out, because some people will try to point out that recycling is not cost-effective. What they do not take into account are the following things: the landfill site selection, the cost of expropriation, the loss of farm land, the cost of operating a modern, safe landfill site, the closure of the landfill site and the perpetual care and monitoring. I am convinced that if people will take into consideration what the real costs of landfill or incineration are, they will decide that, not only for the environment but for the bottom line, recycling is superior.

Mr Daigeler: I am glad that members of the opposition are taking an interest in this question, which I think is of very great importance across the province. My neighbourhood of Barrhaven took a great interest in this project of plastics recycling and I certainly hope we can continue this program. Can the minister outline what initiatives his ministry is taking to encourage new technologies and new markets for plastics recycling?

Hon Mr Bradley: I could probably name many, but I will pick only a couple of examples. First of all, our industrial 3Rs program provides assistance for all industrial and commercial sectors to take advantage of new opportunities for waste diversion from either landfill or incineration. Activities eligible for funding include feasibility studies, process or equipment modification or evaluation, demonstration projects and research.

There are a couple. Custom Cryogenic Grinding Corp received a grant of $541,000 towards a recycling plant for plastic, rubber and leather. The plant now under construction will be able to process 13 million pounds of plastic. Polymer Development Corp recently received a grant of $610,000 to help establish a scrap plastic recycling operation of municipal, commercial and industrial plastics presently destined for disposal. I will not go into the details of that, except to say --

The Speaker: Thank you.

PROPOSED HOSPITAL MERGER

Mr Reville: My question is for the Minister of Health. There is a panel reviewing the decision-making process about the merger between Women’s College Hospital and the Toronto Hospital. The city of Toronto’s medical officer of health is looking at the proposed merger from the perspective of access to health care, but we do not yet have the promised vision statement from the two boards and people are becoming increasingly concerned that the Toronto Hospital is being handed a blank cheque. Will the minister tell us what her view is of the future of Women’s College?

Hon Mrs Caplan: I want to say to my critic opposite that I have confidence in the boards which govern the hospitals of this province. I often refer to them as nonprofit private corporations. The ministry, as the member knows, has agreed to an independent review of the process leading to the merger decision. It is my understanding that that team -- if it has not already been announced, it will be very soon -- will review the process that led to that decision.

Mr Reville: I have a lot less confidence in the track record of hospital boards involving the public in wide-ranging discussion about their future than the minister seems to have. Quite frankly, I remember, as an outside viewer, a 1983 statement by a gentleman member of this House, who is now the Premier (Mr Peterson). He said that there had to be wide public consultation with all the people affected by the decisions being involved. He said that on 15 February 1983. Further, the minister -- and he meant the minister of the day -- had an obligation to table in the House and share with everybody concerned all the facts about rationalizations or mergers of services.

Will the minister take the Premier’s advice and table in the House all the information that she has about this merger so that people can assure themselves that the culture of Women’s College Hospital will not be lost?

The Speaker: Thank you. The question has been asked.

Hon Mrs Caplan: I think I should declare openly in this House that I was born at Women’s College Hospital, just so that if that matter comes out in the future, members might know. I would say to the member opposite that hospital mergers begin as initiatives from the hospitals. They are decisions that rest with the independent hospital boards.

I want him to know, however, that the ministry and I have been speaking about the importance of hospitals working together. They decide best how to do that, but it is important that we look at how services are provided and focus our attention not only on the process of decision-making, but also on ensuring ourselves that we have the most effective quality care whose results, often referred to as outcomes, will lead to a healthier society.

Mr Cousens: In spite of the fact that the Minister of Health was born at Women’s College, we support it anyway.

The Speaker: Your question is to?

PROPERTY ASSESSMENT

Mr Cousens: My question is to the Minister of Revenue. On 17 October I asked the Minister of Revenue his views on Metro Toronto’s proposal for market value reassessment. At that time, he indicated that the matter was under serious review by his ministry. It is now almost two months later and I would like to ask the minister, once again, where does he stand on market value reassessment for Metro Toronto?

Hon Mr Mancini: The matter is still under serious review.

Mr Cousens: Metro’s commercial sector is going to be subsidizing Metro’s property tax proposals. Commercial establishments will also be paying a new tax, the commercial concentration levy. A committee for Metro’s finance officers has been established to prepare the implementation plan for market value reassessment. The Minister of Revenue will be paying $11.5 million for a study to assess the property values in Metro. Is Metro’s proposal for market value reassessment a fait accompli?

Hon Mr Mancini: The proposal is just that, the proposal of the corporation of the greater Metropolitan Toronto area. It is a proposal similar in some aspects and dissimilar in other ways to the more-than-600 reassessments that have already taken place here in Ontario. For a reassessment to take place the local municipality, the region or the county, must in fact pass a resolution asking for such a reassessment to take place. The responsibility, of course, therefore lies with the local municipalities.

Mr Cousens: So what are you going to do about it, Remo?

The Speaker: The member for Markham had already asked a supplementary.

TRANSIT SERVICES

Mr Matrundola: My question is to the Minister of Transportation. We are all aware of the problem of traffic congestion in Metropolitan Toronto, and in spite of the federal government’s cuts to Via Rail, our government has been making great strides in encouraging people to use public transit.

One way we have been encouraging public transit is through the expansion and promotion of GO Transit, especially the concept of driving to the Station and parking the car there. His ministry has been doing an excellent job in this area, perhaps even too good of a job.

In Willowdale, at the Old Cummer GO station on Leslie Street, there is a very serious problem. There is very limited parking. The parking lot is normally filled to capacity quite early in the morning and people who drive to the station often have nowhere to park. I have three parking tickets here from local residents who could not find parking spots, so they parked at the side of the parking lot.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Maybe the member should be careful with his request. However, I would like to hear a question.

Mr Matrundola: Thank you, Mr Speaker. They are not my parking tickets; they are parking tickets of constituents of mine. I want you to know that. These people parked at the side of the parking lot, not blocking anyone and not on a fire route. As there is quite a bit of vacant land surrounding the GO station --

The Speaker: The question?

Mr Matrundola: -- can we expect any expansion of the parking lots so that people can take GO Transit to work without facing any fines for supposedly parking illegally?

The Speaker: I have to ask the minister, did you hear the question, or would you like to hear it again?

Hon Mr Wrye: I should tell the honourable member I received a parking ticket on Saturday morning while I was selling newspapers for the Goodfellows back in Windsor. I hope my friend the member for Windsor-Riverside got one as well, because we left at about the same time. I paid the ticket, and I certainly would not want to leave any impression that I have anything but sympathy for the parking ticket. Please do not send it over here on a supplementary.

I can tell the honourable member that we do have a problem at Old Cummer station and indeed a lot of stations on the GO route, as the very outstanding expansion of that system has led to some difficulties in terms of parking. We are having a meeting, I believe next Wednesday, with the affected councillors and indeed with those who are involved in studies in North York, as phase 2 of the planning study that is now under way in terms of expansion of the parking facilities at Old Cummer station. It is a problem we are trying to resolve.

Mr Matrundola: Even though the honourable members of this House may think this is a funny thing, it is not funny for those people who go to work to earn a living and park their cars there and they find a parking ticket when they come back home.

In the meantime, can the minister ask GO Transit security people to use their discretion not to ticket cars that may be parked illegally, provided of course they are not blocking anyone or interfering with the traffic flow? Furthermore, can anything be done to void those parking tickets that people have received from GO Transit?

Mrs Marland: Bill, it’s your chance not to be a Scrooge.

Hon Mr Wrye: There is a suggestion that in the spirit of the Christmas season perhaps I should announce that all tickets are voided, but GO Transit certainly has the authority in this area to hand out tickets and I would not want to impinge upon its authority.

I can say to the honourable member and to the House that the enforcement officials of GO Transit, who do on occasion give out tickets, also on a lot of occasions do use the discretion that is given to them and try to show some sensitivity in such cases. We realize we have an important challenge. I hope that members of the public, recognizing that we do have these challenges which we are trying to meet, will also meet the challenge in their own way by enhancing the amount of car pooling that is being done in an effort to alleviate some of the problems that are occurring.

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE

Mr Allen: I have a question for the Minister of Community and Social Services. A constituent of mine, Janice Reidel, a 44-year-old nurse afflicted with severe arthritis, has had to retire. She applied successfully to vocational rehabilitation for a program, but when she applied to family benefits for a personal support allowance she was refused because she has in excess of $3,000 in a registered retirement savings plan which arose out of the transfer of her pensionable savings as a nurse into an RRSP, which is currently in trust with a company.

Is that fair, and what is the minister doing about the asset rules that would relieve persons like Janice Reidel from the kind of treatment that she has received in seeking to retrain herself for a new occupation?

Hon Mr Beer: I am not aware of the specifics of the particular question the member raised. In terms of the amount, I know that is at the limit of what is allowed by the federal government at this time. We have received from a number of people questions around this, and at the last federal-provincial meeting of ministers responsible for social services we raised this issue in terms of looking at how we could make some changes to reflect changes in the world around us and problems of the sort that the member mentioned. I would be certainly prepared to look at that specific case, but it does go beyond what we in the province are able to do ourselves in making changes to those rules.

Mr Allen: This question was laid on the minister by the Social Assistance Review Committee, as he may recall. The legislation under the Canada assistance plan allows us as a province to determine what is or is not a liquid asset and to establish our own asset ceiling. Secondly, the CAP guidelines permit assets above ceiling if the money is in a special fund or trust for purposes deemed socially important by the provincial administration.

Is it not important that Janice Reidel have a hedge against being one of those single poor women who are one of the most important and difficult poverty sectors we face? Is that not a socially important consideration for this administration?

Hon Mr Beer: Indeed, and I think that would be one of the directions we would want to go. I would have to say that in making changes to the specific rules and guidelines, we have to be aware of what their implications are. I can tell the member that I will look specifically at this case to see in which way we can help and provide assistance. I say as well to the member that we are looking at that specific matter; it has been raised with me during the fall by different organizations, and we are trying to come to some determination of how we can help.

There are some areas with respect to this question where I believe we have been able to make some positive changes around the question of assets, but we have not been able to fully deal with that issue. I will make the commitment to deal specifically with the individual in question and to continue to try to resolve the broader question.

ELECTRICITY DEMAND AND SUPPLY

Mr Cureatz: I have a question for the Minister of Energy. Last week my colleague the member for Leeds-Grenville (Mr Runciman) asked the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology (Mr Kwinter) whether he was concerned about the lack of electricity being provided to Ontario industries.

I have been contacted by the president of Lasco Steel, located in the town of Whitby. I represent a portion of that municipality. He indicated to me that three days last week he had to shut down his plant and send 250 employees home, because Ontario Hydro could not produce electricity. This is while Ontario Hydro is telling us to unplug Christmas lights, and at the Darlington generating station, located in my riding, there is a huge billboard all lit up with Christmas lights saying, “Season’s Greetings.”

Would the minister please confirm to this House that the reason Ontario residents and employees are suffering a lack of electricity is that this government has not made adequate plans since it has taken office and since the accord in 1985?

Hon Mrs McLeod: No, I will not confirm that

interpretation of the facts. Last Thursday, when the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology was asked the question about interruptions of power to specific industries, I had just returned to my own riding of Thunder Bay from witnessing the signing of the Manitoba purchase agreement, which is a part of the plans that Ontario Hydro is putting in place to ensure security of electricity supply in the future.

I heard the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology very correctly indicate that the only industries which had their power interrupted were those that had a portion of their power purchase on interruptible contracts, knowing that at points of potential shortages, very short-term shortages, power could be interrupted for short terms. As I am sure the member is aware, those companies secure that power at quite reasonable rates in return for that prospect of its being interruptible, and Ontario Hydro has a very remarkable rate of ensuring reliability of electricity and has very, very rare shutdowns even to its interruptible customers.

As the member knows, I am also aware of the plans Ontario Hydro is currently putting in place to ensure long-term supply.

Mr Cureatz: Speaking of the Manitoba agreement, how could the minister and her administration agree to signing a contract worth billions of dollars when in the first place that kind of money could be spent in Ontario on the construction of a new station, for instance a Darlington B? Secondly, why would she enter into the agreement before Ontario Hydro has even announced its demand-supply options study, which was supposed to have been announced in September, then October and then November?

Hon Mrs McLeod: I am sure the honourable member is well aware that negotiations on the prospective out-of-province hydro purchases have been going on for some time. It was important to determine whether or not those negotiations could be successfully concluded, both for Manitoba Hydro, which is looking at a very major power generation project which is important to that province, as well as for Ontario Hydro, so they would know whether or not the prospective purchase of out-of-province electricity could be a part of those plans, which in fact they are going to table with the government very shortly.

I think the honourable member will be well aware that we have announced an environmental assessment review process, and the Manitoba purchase agreement will be a part of our environmental assessment review. As to the issue of why out-of-province purchase is a part of the options that Ontario Hydro will want to present, I think Ontario Hydro is looking at a diversity of options, and I think that there will undoubtedly be other proposals that Hydro brings forward in its plans.

As for Ontario jobs, there are some very positive spinoffs, not only in terms of reliability of electricity but in terms of economic opportunities for northern Ontario, through this possible purchase.

HAMILTON HARBOUR

Ms Oddie Munro: My question is to the Minister of the Environment. The development of Hamilton’s waterfront is of great interest, excitement and concern to all Hamiltonians. As the minister knows, our plans are wide-ranging and diverse, and I was pleased to note his involvement in CHCH-TV’s recent program dealing with the waterfront. It is important to note we recognize that environmental cleanup and restoration of our harbour is critical to development of the waterfront.

My question is, can the minister tell me when he will be in a position to arrange a meeting with the city of Hamilton on the cleanup activities proposed for the Lax lands?

Hon Mr Bradley: I think the member would know that the land was expropriated in 1984 by the city of Hamilton for recreational purposes and that in 1986 there was an undertaking and actual processing of taking some contaminated soil away for appropriate disposal. It was discovered subsequently that some 13,000 tons of waste still has to be taken away to make it usable.

The city, I understand, has now put forward a formal proposal. I know the mayor, Bob Morrow, is very enthusiastic about this and is eager to proceed with it. It offers a lot of opportunity for Hamilton. Certainly, I think we should be in a position next week to have the Hamilton district office of the Ministry of the Environment meeting with the city of Hamilton to look at the details of that proposal and to come forward with a funding formula.

I already gave a commitment in 1986 on the part of the provincial government to participate by providing funds from our environmental security fund to assist in this regard. That offer stands, and I am very pleased to know that in the very near future there will be a meeting between our officials to work out the details.

Ms Oddie Munro: I am looking forward to the outcome of that meeting. With respect to the environmental cleanup of the harbour, could the minister indicate the potential impact of the municipal-industrial strategy for abatement regulations affecting the iron and steel sector? What is the status of the implementation of such regulations?

Hon Mr Bradley: There will be an impact. The first

part is dealing with some remedial work; the second part with some preventive work. As of 1 November 1989, the MISA monitoring regulation went in for some seven iron and steel plants in the province, including the ones located in the city of Hamilton.

Final discharges to waterways will be monitored daily for four different substances, three times a week for 12 contaminants and weekly for eight to 12 substances. Monthly and quarterly monitoring for a group of contaminants that sums 86 to 149 contaminants will also take place. There will be monthly biological monitoring that will be required, involving toxicity tests on mill effluents using rainbow trout and water fleas.

With the results from this in hand, there will be formulated a very tough program of abatement, which is the second portion of the regulation, which will have the preventive effect of bringing further reductions in the contaminants that will be going into the waterway, with the final goal being the virtual elimination of persistent toxic substances going into Hamilton harbour.

REGIONAL MUNICIPALITY OF NIAGARA

Mr Wildman: I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs regarding the $400,000 Niagara regional review report which was completed by Professor Harry Kitchen of Trent University and to which the minister has requested reaction.

The report proposes to abolish single lot severances of good agricultural land, a recommendation which is directly contrary to the opportunistic suggestion of his colleague the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr Ramsay) in a speech to the Niagara Federation of Agriculture on 21 October that restrictions on urban development of farm land be eased.

Could the minister clarify whether he or the Minister of Agriculture and Food speaks for government policy in this matter?

Hon Mr Sweeney: I am fairly certain that my honourable friend is well aware of the fact that Harry Kitchen’s report is Harry Kitchen’s report; it is not the government report. When I went down to Niagara to officially make the report public, I made that very clear to the people down there, including all of the municipal officials, and I must say to my honourable friend that there was some strong difference of opinion.

Hon Mr Bradley: How could you leave him time for a supplementary?

Mr Wildman: The Minister of the Environment wonders why the minister left time for a supplementary. Could the minister indicate how long he intends to leave time for reaction and when he, as the minister responsible, will be stating government policy with regard to land severances of good agricultural land in the Niagara region?

Hon Mr Sweeney: We indicated last week that we wanted reaction by 31 May 1990 and that how widespread the reactions were, or how closely they were, would determine how long it would take me to give government reaction.

PETITIONS

ANIMALS FOR RESEARCH

Mr Wildman: I have a petition signed by approximately 3,400 residents of Ontario, mostly from the Metropolitan Toronto region, requesting that the Parliament of Ontario pass into law a bill prohibiting the use of animals in cosmetic and product testing; that is, Bill 190. This raises the total of signatures to approximately 76,400 residents of Ontario supporting Bill 190’s passage. I have added my name to it and I support the petition.

NATUROPATHY

Mr Kanter: I have two petitions, each gathered by naturopaths practising in my riding and each signed by approximately 100 residents, many of whom are residents in my riding, asking the Ontario government to introduce legislation that would guarantee naturopaths the right to practise their art and science to the fullest without prejudice or harassment. I have signed each of these petitions and would present them to the Legislature.

FRENCH-LANGUAGE SERVICES

Mr MacDonald: I have three petitions from the Quinte area that I am presenting today. All of these petitions were signed by citizens who oppose the French Language Services Act. I have affixed my signature according to the standing orders.

Mr Matrundola: I have a petition to the Honourable Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

“We, the undersigned, beg leave to petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows;

“Whereas the French ethnic population of Ontario at the time of Confederation was less than 1.85 per cent, and

“Whereas all ethnic groups residing in Ontario at the time of Confederation can claim to be founding people, and

“Whereas the French Language Services Act of the province of Ontario creates a special status for 4.5 per cent of the provincial population, and

“Whereas the creation of a special status for one ethnic group discriminates against all other ethnic groups comprising 95.5 per cent of the population and is a source of disunity within the province,

“Wherefore, the undersigned humbly pray and call upon the Legislature of the province of Ontario to pass legislation repealing the French Language Services Act, being the Statutes of Ontario 1986,

chapter 45.”

It is my duty to present the petition, which is signed by 36 residents of the riding of Willowdale. The petition calls upon the Legislative Assembly to repeal the French Language Services Act. As required by the standing rules, I have affixed my signature.

The Speaker: I might remind the honourable member, he might take another look at the new standing order 35 pertaining to petitions.

LICENSING OF TOBACCO PRODUCTS

Mr Allen: I have 11 names on a petition to the Honourable Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario which is essentially a demand for the licensing of tobacco products which they argue should not be left to the whim of municipalities as provided under the Municipal Act but should be included in provincial legislation. They urge the Minister of Health (Mrs Caplan) to move speedily in that direction and ask her why the government has not, to date, introduced a licensing system to control this, since it is the only hazardous product available in Ontario, the sale of which is not controlled by government.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

House in committee of the whole.

COURTS OF JUSTICE AMENDMENT ACT, 1989

Consideration of Bill 69,

An Act to amend the Courts of Justice Act.

The Chair: At this moment, I would like to list all possible sections on which members would like to make comments, propose amendments or ask questions. I have in front of me government motions for sections 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 and 8. Do other members have a list of proposed amendments?

Mr Sterling: It might be easier, in this bill, to list the sections to which there are no amendments.

The Chair: There being no other proposed amendments, let us have a look at

section

Section 1:

The Chair: Mr Polsinelli moves that clause 90(1)(va) of the act, as set out in subsection 1(1) of the bill, be struck out and the following substituted therefor:

“(va) the method of calculating the amount to be included in an award of damages to offset any liability for income tax on income from investment of the award.”

The Chair: Did the parliamentary assistant provide copies for everyone?

Mr Polsinelli: I understand the critic from the official opposition does not have copies of the amendments. They were delivered yesterday to the substitute critic, who was acting on his behalf, but I will ensure that copies of these amendments are sent also to the critic.

This motion would broaden the language of the proposed act to ensure that the rules committee can provide for rules for all circumstances that may require gross-up calculations. In particular, this

section gives the rules committee of the Supreme and District Court the power to make rules that will guide the court in making calculations for what is known as gross-up. The current wording makes this possible, but only where it relates to the cost of future care. This broadens the rules committee’s powers in that section.

Mr Sterling: Before I get to the substance of the amendment, as I have mentioned and as you pointed out, Mr Chairman, we have a bill with seven substantive sections and we have nine amendments. I want to ask the parliamentary assistant what kind of consultations have gone on with the Advocates Society and the Canadian Bar Association, in particular, and the rules committee, with respect to the amendments which are being presented by the parliamentary assistant at this time?

Mr Polsinelli: I am informed that the rules committee has copies of all the amendments and these particular amendments are as a result of comments on the bill since its introduction and first reading.

Mr Sterling: When did they receive copies of these amendments, and have the Canadian Bar Association and the Advocates Society, who deal with these on a day-to-day basis, also received copies of these amendments?

Mr Polsinelli: I am informed that the Advocates Society has not received copies of these amendments.

Mr Sterling: When did the rules committee receive these? Have they considered them and responded to these particular amendments which are being put forward at this time?

Mr Polsinelli: The rules committee does not have these amendments. I understand that they do not need them. They have a request to develop all the possible rules that will be developed as a result, not only of this act but also of Bills 2 and 3.

Mr Sterling: That is kind of a strange answer, that I guess they do not need them because they could do anything anyway, with or without the statute, so why do we need the amendments in the first place, or why do we need the statute in the first place?

Basically, as I understand it, this statute gives them certain parameters to work within. What I would like to know is whether or not there has been adequate time for response. Notwithstanding the desire of everybody to get on with this, I cannot emphasize enough my concern as to whether or not it is wise to do so at this juncture.

Mr Polsinelli: I am advised that we do not normally circulate these to the rules committee. The rules committee makes the rules as a result of the legislation that is passed by the House. In terms of this particular legislation and these amendments, we have consulted with the bar, both the practising bar in Toronto and in Ottawa, and the official guardian’s office. Once this legislation is passed, there will be an obligation on the rules committee to develop the rules as a consequence of this legislation.

Mr Sterling: I am not referring to the amendments as proposed in Bill 69; I am referring to the amendments to the amendments which we were given yesterday -- the amendments to the amendments. Because I know those amendments were drawn over the weekend and in fact were being drafted only yesterday, and we received this version of the amendments only during question period, at approximately 2:30 yesterday afternoon, I would be greatly surprised if in fact the member had consulted with the bar or the rules committee or anybody else with regard to these amendments which he is presenting today in committee of the whole House.

I guess he is confirming that on this package of amendments, these nine amendments which I have on my desk, he has not consulted with any of the profession or the rules committee other than the general consultations that might have taken place prior to the presentation of Bill 69. Is that correct?

Mr Polsinelli: I would have to agree with the member for Carleton. As a result of first reading, we consulted, as I said, with the bar, both the practising bar in Toronto and in Ottawa, with the official guardian’s office and with private practitioners. As a result of our consultation with those individuals, we developed these amendments which we feel will satisfy some of the questions and concerns that they had as a result of the bill. They feel these amendments will make this a better, more palatable and fairer bill.

Mr Sterling: My only concern when we are amending rules like this, a lot of which in effect acts in a retroactive way to existing court actions that are under way in the court system already, is that in fact they be right and they be logical and they be well thought out. Our most recent experience with other court reform has indicated that the Attorney General’s office has not acted always in that manner. I, of course, speak of Bills 2 and 3 which, 10 days after passing, were amended by another bill which indeed was amended during the legislative process once again.

I will go to the substance of the present motion. Under Bill 69 as introduced on 23 October of this year, the minister has indicated the method of calculating the amount to be included in an award of damages for future care to offset liability for income tax. That is what he had in the original proposal on Bill 69, which we passed on second reading yesterday. He has now changed that to this amendment which changes certain words of it, and I find those words more confining, not more generic in how they are laid.

I did not get the sense that the parliamentary assistant was pointing to that. Under this proposal, he is saying, “the method of calculating the amount to be included in an award of damages to offset any liability for income tax on income from investment of the award.” To me, those words are more confining than those that he originally had. Is that his intent, to confine, or is it to give the rules committee more power?

Mr Polsinelli: It is clear that our intention is to broaden the scope of powers that the rules committee would have. If I can give an example to the member for Carleton, we would not think, for example, that it is inappropriate for the rules committee to consider other than the income tax aspects, which would normally have been taken into consideration under the first amendment. With this amendment, they would be able to consider, for example, the loss of future income from a dependant that the plaintiff would have been entitled to, if not for the accident or for the tort claim. So it is clearly our intention to broaden the powers of the rules committee in developing rules.

Mr Sterling: The intention with regard to this amendment is to give the rules committee some powers, but this amendment to the amendment which we are debating today adds the words “on income from investment of the award.” If the parliamentary assistant did not have those words in it, as Bill 69 now has excluded those words, to me, that gives the rules committee more power to make calculations and rules than what he is proposing today. In other words, he has seen between 23 October and today a need to limit the power of the rules committee on setting the method of calculating these amounts. If that is correct, I would like to ask him why he wants to limit the rules committee in that regard.

Mr Polsinelli: I am advised that the key to the amendment is that we are now removing the words “for future care.” What we are doing with this is just clarifying the

section and we believe that the net result will be a broadening of the powers of the rules committee.

Motion agreed to.

Mr Polsinelli: I would ask the unanimous consent of the House to place this next amendment.

The Chair: Why?

Mr Polsinelli: We have been advised by the clerk that, otherwise, this amendment would be out of order because it refers to a subsection that was not initially amended by Bill 69, as a result of which we are technically required to ask for unanimous consent of the House to place this before the House.

The Chair: Is there unanimous consent to place this amendment?

Agreed to.

The Chair: Mr Polsinelli moves that

section 1 of the bill be amended by adding thereto the following subsections:

“(3) Subsection 65(2) of the said act, as enacted by the Statutes of Ontario, 1989,

chapter 55,

section 2, is amended by adding thereto the following clauses:

“(ua) the method of calculating the amount to be included in an award of damages to offset any liability for income tax on income from investment of the award;

“(ub) the discount rate with respect to the rate of interest on damages for nonpecuniary loss.

“

(4) Section 65 of the said act, as enacted by the Statutes of Ontario, 1989,

chapter 55,

section 2, is amended by adding thereto the following subsection:

“

(4) Rules made under clauses (1)(p)(ua) and (ub) shall be reviewed at least once in every four-year period.”

Mr Polsinelli: When Bill 2, the court reform bill, is proclaimed, it will make changes to the constitution of the rules committee. This motion will add a subsection that preserves these amendments after Bill 2 is proclaimed.

Motion agreed to.

Section 1, as amended, agreed to.

Section 2:

Mr Polsinelli: We have no motion with respect to this section. However, it is our intention to delete this

section from the bill. This

section codifies the court’s power to do a gross-up calculation and this motion repeals it so that it can be merged with the next section,

section 129.

The Chair: I will explain to you that the correct procedure is to vote against this

section standing as part of the bill. Therefore, you may move it, so we can vote against it.

Mr Polsinelli: When you call that

section 2 of the bill be carried, I will say no.

The Chair: In that case, let’s simplify this even more. Shall

section 2 stand as part of the bill?

Section 2 negatived.

Section 3:

The Chair: Mr Polsinelli moves that clause 129(1)(

b) of the act, as set out in

section 3 of the bill, be amended by striking out “requests an increase” in the first line and inserting in lieu thereof “requests that an amount be included.”

Mr Polsinelli: We feel that this is an improvement on the wording of clause 129(1)(b). It is not a substantive motion.

Motion agreed to.

The Chair: Mr Polsinelli moves that

section 129 of the act, as set out in

section 3 of the bill, be amended by adding thereto the following subsection:

“(2a) In considering the best interest of the plaintiff, the court shall take into account,

“(

a) whether the defendant has sufficient means to fund an adequate scheme of periodic payments;

“(

b) whether the plaintiff has a plan or a method of payment that is better able to meet the interests of the plaintiff than periodic payments by the defendant; and

“(

c) whether a scheme of periodic payments is practicable having regarding to all the circumstances of the case.”

Mr Polsinelli: We feel that this gives the court a bit more flexibility and guidance in determining what the best interest of the plaintiff is. It would not be, for example, in the best interest of the plaintiff if the court were to order a structured settlement which would be beyond the policy limits of the insurance of the defendant’s insurer or in similar cases where the court feels that it is not in the best interest of the plaintiff, it can refuse to order a structure and can look at some alternative judgement.

Mr Sterling: I had understood, with what was already proposed in the act, that the court would have a pretty unfettered discretion to make whatever order it thought was right. I am just somewhat concerned about whether or not, when taking into consideration the best interests of the plaintiff, the parliamentary assistant should consider whether or not the defendant has sufficient means to fund an adequate scheme of periodic payments.

I just wonder whether or not the argument might be put forward that, as often happens in family court cases, the defendant loads himself up with a tremendous amount of debt obligation, almost on purpose, to avoid any periodic payments he might be required to make either for his spouse or for children. Therefore, I just wondered whether this could be interpreted in any way as acting against the best interests of a plaintiff spouse in a family court situation.

Mr Polsinelli: We do not see the situation of a defendant loading up on debt to avoid a structure, because the alternative to that would be a lump sum payment.

Mr Sterling: I know the parliamentary assistant is relatively new to the bar, but notwithstanding that, I think it only takes a very short period of experience in the family court to understand what happens. Often a spouse, primarily the man, wants to avoid making any kind of maintenance payments for his wife or his children and goes out and buys a big expensive car with high payments on it and then submits his budget to the family court and says that his take-home pay is, for the sake of simplicity, $2,500, but he has $600 in car payments. I do not know whether this encourages the defendant to do that kind of thing. Quite frankly, I do not know what the necessity of the

section is in the act.

Mr Polsinelli: I am having some difficulty understanding how this would apply in a family law action. My understanding is that it only applies to actions that are generally personal injury actions. In this type of situation, what we have is the court having to make a decision between a lump sum payment, a judgement for X amount of dollars, or whether it would be more appropriate and in the plaintiff’s better interest to award a structured settlement that would cost $120,000.

When we are talking about periodic payments, we are talking about the monthly or regular payments that are made pursuant to an annuity, or some type of structure that would be imposed by the court in this type of situation. Again, what we think this does is provide the court with some guidance in determining what the best interest of the plaintiff is in this particular situation. If they find that a structured settlement or a particular structure is not in the plaintiff’s best interest, they may order something else such as a lump sum payment, for example, or a different type of structure.

Mr Sterling: I want to refer the parliamentary assistant to subsection 129(1) of the act where it says, “In a proceeding where damages are claimed for personal injuries or under

part V of the Family Law Act.” That is why I am referring to the family court situation which could result when combined with a personal injury. But that is no question.

Mr Polsinelli:

Part V of the Family Law Act that is referred to in subsection 129(1) is the

section that allows for derivative actions to be placed by the relative. It is narrowly defined as to who can bring that type of action, but if a parent were to bring a derivative action on behalf of a child who was injured tripping on a sidewalk in front of a grocery store, or something in that nature, it still narrows it to a personal injury type of action.

Motion agreed to.

The Chair: Mr Polsinelli moves that

section 129 of the Act, as set out in

section 3 of the bill, be amended by adding thereto the following subsection:

“

(4) If the court does not make an order for periodic payment under subsection (1), it shall make an award for damages that shall include an amount to offset liability for income tax on income from investment of the award.”

Mr Polsinelli: This motion makes the subsection clear in providing first that the gross-up is to be ordered if a structured judgement is not ordered. Second, it broadens the language so that the courts’ power to gross up is not limited to the cost of future care.

Motion agreed to.

Section 3, as amended, agreed to.

Section 4:

The Chair: Mr Polsinelli moves that subsection 130c(4) of the act, as set out in

section 4 of the bill, be amended inserting after “but” in the second line “shall be disclosed.”

Mr Polsinelli: This is not a substantive amendment. It just improves the language of the amendment.

Motion agreed to.

The Chair: Shall

section 4, as amended, carry?

Mr Kormos: Mr Chairman.

The Chair: Yes. On

section 4?

Mr Kormos: Yes, please. The

section refers to new sections, amendments proposed by

section 4. Sections 130a and 13Ob talk about damages for personal injury. It is surely ironic that this legislation would speak of damages for personal injury. The parliamentary assistant gave the illustration of a person slipping and falling on a sidewalk, perhaps on a patch of ice left behind by a negligent property owner who showed a complete lack of care for pedestrians, people using that sidewalk in front of his business or in front of his home.

What happens is that in this province, if this government has its way, the person who slips and falls on a piece of ice that was negligently left behind by a property owner will be able to get compensated for his or her pain and suffering, for his or her damages for personal injury, exactly what these sections talk about. But if that same person here in the province of Ontario is struck down by a drunk or a negligent or a careless driver, this government is saying no.

That same person who is struck down, whose legs are broken, whose back is broken by a drunk or negligent or careless driver, will not be able to seek compensation for personal injury, will not have 130a and 130b considered on his or her behalf, because this very same government that proposes these amendments now is at the same time telling people who are going to be the innocent victims of drunk, negligent, careless and reckless drivers, “No, we are going to deny you the right to be compensated for your personal injuries.”

There will not be any talk about collecting damages for personal injuries by way of compensation because they are going to be protecting that negligent or drunk or careless or reckless driver and they are not going to be permitting the victim to accept or receive or even claim compensation for pain, for suffering, for loss of enjoyment of life.

Indeed, what we are speaking of, of course, is the juxtaposition of this particular Bill 69 with its predecessor numerically, that is, Bill 68. Bill 69 on the one hand speaks so boldly of damages for personal injuries, but Bill 68 took away the right of at least 95 per cent of all innocent injured accident victims, motor vehicle accident victims here in the province of Ontario to even think about being compensated for their personal injury.

I am wondering if the parliamentary assistant could comment on the irony inherent in that particular juxtaposition.

Mr Poisinelli: It is usually very difficult for me to comment on irony, but I will bring to the member’s attention that the advance payments that are contemplated under this bill are presently available to individuals who are involved in auto accidents under

section 224 of the Insurance Act.

What we are doing is extending that provision, or not necessarily that provision but a similar provision, to all tort cases and not just auto cases. So the slip-and-fall case that I gave as an example earlier would not be entitled to the same benefits as someone who was involved in an auto accident today would be entitled to.

Mr Kormos: It is incredible that the parliamentary assistant could say that because he knows or he certainly should know that Bill 68 is going to take away the right of at least 95 per cent of those innocent injured accident victims to look for compensation for personal injury. How can he talk in the manner that he just has? He knows better than that. Shame on him.

Section 4, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 5 and 6 agreed to.

Section 7:

The Chair: Mr Polsinelli moves that clauses 140(2)(g), (

h) and (

i) of the act, as set out in

section 7 of the bill, be struck out.

Mr Polsinelli: I think they are fairly self-explanatory.

Mr Sterling: I cannot understand why the parliamentary assistant wants to take these particular clauses out when basically this

section is trying to give direction to the court to punish litigants by varying the rate of interest that they might be able to receive on their damages by taking into consideration various factors.

The first of the three factors that they want to erase from the original Bill 69 is “the fact that a step in the proceeding was improper, vexatious or unnecessary.” In fact, if a litigant, a lawyer or a client through his lawyer takes a step that is improper, vexatious or unnecessary, quite frankly we believe that that litigant should be penalized in some form. Otherwise, the whole thrust of this legislation will be lost. We want this legislation to encourage people to act in a reasonable, sane manner in dealing with litigation before our courts.

The next one that was removed is “the fact that a step in the proceeding was taken through negligence, mistake or excessive caution.” Again, we believe that if in fact a party is negligent in the action, causes an undue delay, causes a party to not receive the damages within time, that should be penalized as well in a striking of the interest rate that the defendant should be entitled to.

The third one they are striking out is “the fact that a party denied or refused to admit anything that should have been admitted” during the proceedings.

In other words, if a particular fact is self-evident to everyone and one of the sides requires, for instance, the proof of a fact which is self-evident and can be proved perhaps with some difficulty by bringing witnesses from afar or providing affidavits or whatever proof is necessary, if that can be admitted up front, it saves the time of the court, it saves the expense of the court, it saves the expense of the litigants, and therefore we believe that it should also be reflected in the interest rate that the judge hits when he is deciding on damages in the final analysis.

Quite frankly, we do not understand why the government wants to take out these three sections which we believe would speed up, would lead to less cost in litigation, when that is what the whole bill is all about. Perhaps the parliamentary assistant could explain it.

Mr Polsinelli: The three clauses that we are taking out, clauses (g), (

h) and (i), we believe are covered by clause (f), and that is what we have been told by the practising bar. That

section says “the conduct of any party that tended to shorten or to lengthen unnecessarily the duration of the proceeding,” and we have been told by the practising bar that that effectively covers those items that are listed in (g), (

h) and (i). So there is no discretion taken away from the court in determining the plaintiffs entitlement to interest.

The other factor that we should take into consideration is that these are items that really apply to the cost of the action, and the judge has the discretion under the rules of civil procedure to take these particular items into consideration in awarding costs. In fact, clauses (g), (

h) and (i), which we are taking out of this particular bill, are very, very similar in wording to the rules of civil procedure.

The Chair: Any other comments? Ready for the vote? Is it the pleasure of the committee that the motion carry?

All those in favour will please say “aye.”

All those opposed will please say “nay.”

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

Motion agreed to.

Section 7, as amended, agreed to.

Section 8:

The Chair: Mr Polsinelli moves that

section 8 of the bill be struck out and the following substituted therefor:

“

(1) The amendments to the Courts of Justice Act, 1984, enacted by this act, except for the amendments enacted by subsections 1(3) and (4),

section 4 and subsection 6(2), apply to causes of action arising after the 23rd day of October, 1989.

“

(2) The amendments to the Courts of Justice Act, 1984, enacted by

section 4 and subsection 6(2) of this act apply to,

(

a) actions commenced but not settled or adjudicated upon before this act comes into force; and

(

b) causes of action arising after this Act comes into force.

“(3) Subsections 1(3) and (4) come into force on the day that

section 2 of the Courts of Justice Amendment Act, 1989, being

chapter 55, is proclaimed in force.”

Mr Polsinelli: Consultation has told us that some of these amendments, particularly the guidance to juries on quantum, appeal court power to substitute their assessments or the advance payments provisions, should be made available to the practising bar and to the plaintiffs as quickly as possible. Accordingly, we are making those amendments.

The Chair: Any comments? Ready for the vote? Is it the pleasure of the committee that the motion carry?

Motion agreed to.

Section 8, as amended, agreed to.

Section 9 agreed to.

Section 10:

Mr Sterling: I have not submitted an amendment to

section 10, but I thought that a more appropriate name for the

short title of this act would be the “Fifth or Sixth or Seventh Courts of Justice Amendment Act, 1989.” I think that would be more appropriate. I am not sure what number it is. Perhaps the parliamentary assistant could tell me how many times we have amended the Courts of Justice Act this year.

Mr Polsinelli: The member for Carleton, being a practising lawyer, knows that the Courts 3 of Justice Act is a very comprehensive document that controls the structure of the legal system and the administration of justice in this province. Quite frankly, I do not think we can have enough situations where we try to make it better, more equitable and fair for the people of the province.

Mr Sterling: I am concerned that we make it right when we do it. The past experience has been that it has not been right. I expect that early in March, when we reconvene, we will have the Courts of Justice Amendment Act, 1990 before us.

Section 10 agreed to.

Bill, as amended, ordered to be reported.

EMPLOYER HEALTH TAX ACT, 1989

Consideration of Bill 47,

An Act to impose a Tax on Employers for the purpose of providing for Health Care and to revise the requirements respecting the payment of Premiums under the Health Insurance Act.

The Chair: As usual, I would like to list the proposed amendments. The clerk assistant has just delivered a fine package of third-party motions.

Hon Mr Mancini: With your permission, I would like to move down and also have permission for my officials to join me.

The Chair: Please go ahead, Minister.

Hon Mr Mancini: I understand we have not yet received the reprinted bill. We believe that three government motions were carried in the committee. I want to ask whether or not you could confirm that, or if you do have a reprinted bill, we would prefer a copy.

The Chair: We have a reprinted copy here on the table. It just came in today, by the way.

I wanted to ask the member for Beaches-Woodbine, have you circulated copies of the proposed amendments to sections 40 and 41 that you just submitted?

Ms Bryden: Yes.

The Chair: Including to the interpreters and Hansard?

Ms Bryden: No, I did not.

The Chair: No? Can I remind members, it is habitual procedure, two hours ahead of time, to give seven copies to the table so that we can give them to all the clerk assistants, legislative counsel, Hansard and interpreters, please. Thank you.

I have quite a number of proposed amendments, sections 1, 2, 3, 7 ,20, 20a, 32,36, 40 and 41 from the official opposition;

section 41 also from the government;

section 41 also from the third party. Does that cover it, more or less? There are no more unannounced proposals to come forward.

In that case, can we look at subsection 1(1),

definitions, as a third party motion?

Hon Mr Mancini: Excuse me, are we starting from the beginning again? Are we not starting from where the committee left off? We are asking for your guidance on this.

The Chair: From what I have been told, we start on

section 1 from scratch.

Hon Mr Mancini: Does that mean the government must remove its amendments?

Mr Sterling: No, they have been passed.

The Chair: I have been told that the amendments that you had passed before are already in the reprinted version, so you do not have to deal with those again, but as this is a different committee, we have to start from scratch at

section 1 again.

Hon Mr Mancini: You are saying maybe we are going to give the member for Cochrane South (Mr Pope) another chance. Is that what you are telling us, Mr Chairman?

The Chair: That sounds like a fair

interpretation.

Hon Mr Mancini: I think in the spirit of the season, we should allow that.

Mr Sterling: On a point of order, Mr Chairman: I want to make it clear to the minister that if he reads the standing order, he should understand that it is not in the spirit of his giving us anything. We, as members of the Legislature, have the right to present amendments at all stages of the process, in committee, or even if the committee is usurped by the government members and it is sent back here, we have the right to present those amendments.

I appreciate his kindness in the spirit of the Christmas season, but surely if he wants to convey to us his good wishes, he will do it in some other manner after we prorogue or we leave this evening -- perhaps take all the members involved in this out to dine with him this evening or something of that nature.

Ms Bryden: On the point of order --

The Chair: No, it is not speaking on a point of order, it is just an explanation. I just want to say, in the spirit of the House, let us proceed with the member for Cochrane South.

Mr Pope: As I was saying, in order to expedite this process, and I mean that, I wanted to ask the minister if he could reply under

section 1 to a number of questions that we have. Will he confirm the information that was given by the member for Middlesex (Mr Reycraft) and Mr Orsini last week in the standing committee on finance and economic affairs on Thursday, 7 December 1989? It is found on pages 36 and 37 of the instant Hansard report.

We just want to get the minister to confirm that in fact for January, February and March 1990, the payroll tax will bring in to the coffers of the province of Ontario approximately $500 million in that three-month period. I will quote the answer from Mr Orsini on page 37. “There are no premiums collected in the January-February-March period, but the payments made for January, February and March would amount to over $400 million, approximately $435 million.”

I want to expedite this exercise here, and we can get on to the amendments. Will the minister confirm that the employer health tax will bring in, in January, February and March, $500 million in payroll tax and, at the same time, OHIP premiums collected for the same period will bring in an additional $435 million?

Hon Mr Mancini: We have had long and continuous discussions, I believe, on this particular matter. I think I have told the House and the honourable members as often as they have asked that under the system that is in place now, where people are paying premiums, we are in fact covering 13 per cent of the health care bill. Under the new system, we will be covering 16 per cent of the health care bill.

I believe the honourable member knows full well that under the old system, which was premium driven, some employers paid full premiums on behalf of their employees, some paid partial premiums, some employers paid no premiums at all. We are putting health care on a firm financial footing. We are asking all employers to make a contribution to the funding of our health care system, and as I said at the beginning of my remarks, we are going from a system which provided 13 per cent of the health care costs to a system which is providing 16 per cent of the health care costs.

Mr Pope: Maybe this is going to take a while. I guess we will have to put very specific questions. Will the minister confirm the member for Middlesex’s opinion, given to the standing committee on finance and economic affairs on Thursday, 7 December at page 36 of the transcript from instant Hansard, that approximately $500 million will be paid under this legislation by employers in the province of Ontario for the months January, February and March 1990?

Hon Mr Mancini: If memory serves me correctly, I believe the employers’ health levy will bring in approximately $2.1 billion. The OHIP premiums brought in were $1.8 billion. The new employers’ health levy will be bringing in an extra $300 million.

At this point I would like to add that OHIP premiums have in fact been frozen since 1984-85. If OHIP premiums had not been frozen, if OHIP premiums had gone up equal to the consumer price index, OHIP premiums next year would be bringing in not $2.1 billion, which the employers’ health levy is bringing in, but $2.6 billion.

So I do not care which way the members of the opposition try to dissect this particular matter, we are in fact bringing in less money for the support of health care under this new system than we would otherwise have brought in if we had adopted the old system which had been in place and supported at that time by the Conservative government and, from my understanding, the Conservative Party of today.

Mr Pope: That is contrary, by the way, to the testimony of the minister’s own officials in the committee. He has just reversed his position in which he formerly said three per cent more was coming in.

We will go on until we get the answer. Will the minister confirm the statement of the member for Middlesex made to the finance committee, which I have given the minister a copy of, that in January, February and March 1990, $500 million will come into the coffers of the government of Ontario under the employers’ health tax levy?

Hon Mr Mancini: With all due respect to the member opposite, he is not going to direct me to answer a question in a specific way. The member opposite has the right to ask any question he wants in any manner that he likes. I have the right to put the facts on the table and I have the right to speak for the government here this afternoon and to tell the taxpayers who are watching that if this government had endorsed the system that the member left us, OHIP premiums would be bringing in $500 million more than the new employers’ health levy will bring in. Those are the facts.

If we had endorsed what the member had left behind, many employers would not be making a fair contribution to the support of our health care system. If we had endorsed the position that the members opposite left behind, the $1 billion that we are returning to Ontario citizens would in fact not happen. The individual people who are paying their own premiums would not be receiving the $450 million tax break that they are receiving under this legislation.

The people who have had their OHIP premiums paid for them would not be receiving the almost $400 million in tax breaks, because the OHIP premiums were in fact a taxable benefit as judged by the Department of National Revenue. We are returning $1 billion to the taxpayers. We are instituting a fair system of raising part of the money that is needed to support a $ 14-billion health care system in this province.

Mr Pope: The member for Middlesex, as he is noted in the transcript of instant Hansard from the economic affairs committee of this Legislature, is the parliamentary assistant, I believe, to the Treasurer (Mr R. F. Nixon) of this province. He stated -- and I have given the minister a copy of his statement -- on 7 December, just last Thursday, that his estimate of the employer health tax yield to the province for January, February and March of 1990, will be $500 million. All l am asking the minister is, will he confirm what the parliamentary assistant to the Treasurer has said about the benefits to the Treasury of the province of this tax?

Hon Mr Mancini: My understanding is that we are taking in $2.1 billion for the year. That is a fact.

Mr Pope: Will the minister indicate whether or not the member for Middlesex was wrong when he said, last Thursday to the members of the standing committee on finance and economic affairs, that for January, February and March $500 million would be raised by the employer health tax levy? Was the member for Middlesex wrong or right?

Hon Mr Mancini: I assume that in the first three months we would take in a quarter of the $2.1 billion, which is -- the honourable members can figure it out. I am assuming that these large employers are paying monthly and the small employers are paying quarterly. I am assuming that these payments will come in over the course of 12 months and we will take in $2.1 billion. I have said that right from the very beginning. I do not think we have made that a secret. We have put the facts on the table very clearly.

I say to my honourable friend across the floor that we have said from day one that health insurance premiums would bring in 13 per cent of the health care bill. We have said that the employer health levy would bring in 16 per cent. We have said very clearly that had we continued with the system that was left there when we assumed power, OHIP premiums would be $2.6 billion and not the $2.1 billion that we are taking in through the employer health levy. We have also verified for the honourable member that we are requesting all employers to pay, and that was not the case before.

Mr Pope: If the minister is saying that the annual benefit to the Treasurer from the employer health tax levy is $2.1 billion, will he then confirm that what the member for Middlesex said last Thursday to the committee was correct, that the payments for January, February and March of 1990 under this legislation will amount to approximately $500 million?

The Chair: Minister. No? The member for Cochrane South.

Mr Pope: I am waiting for an answer. I will ask the question again: Will the minister confirm, using his own numbers, that for the period of January, February and March of 1990 the yield to the Treasury from this legislation, from the employers under the employer health tax levy, will be $500 million or $525 million? That is all I want to know. I want confirmation from the minister.

Hon Mr Mancini: I have answered the honourable member’s question several times.

Mr Pope: Actually, the minister has not, and I will continue to ask the question until the minister answers it. Last Thursday in the committee, the member for Middlesex said that the yield to the Treasurer from the employer health tax levy is $500 million. I asked 20 minutes ago for the Minister of Revenue to confirm that the member for Middlesex was correct in his statement. I have yet to have an answer. The minister refuses to use the words “$500 million.” I want to know what the take for the Treasurer is for the months of January, February and March of 1990 in this levy.

Hon Mr Mancini: To try to be as helpful as I can to my friend, whom I have known a good number of years, the take for the employer health levy will be $2.1 billion per year. I am assuming that in three months’ time we will take in 25 per cent of whatever that total is.

Mr Pope: Could the minister give me the result of that calculation from his own mind? If we divide $2.1 billion by four, which is the three-month period of January, February and March 1990, that gives $525 million. Am I correct that this is the number for January, February and March -- $525 million?

Hon Mr Mancini: The honourable member opposite knows that I answered his question fully several times and answered it the first time he placed this question.

Mr Pope: This minister refuses to use the words “$500 million.” He refuses to confirm what the parliamentary assistant to the Treasurer said last Thursday in the standing committee on finance and economic affairs. He refuses to do so even though we are dealing with this bill and we have a right to have those answers.

Last week, the member for Middlesex told members of this Legislative Assembly that it was $500 million. I am trying to shorten this process. The minister does not want this process shortened, so I will keep asking until hell freezes over. I want to know whether or not the take from this employer health tax for January, February and March 1990 is approximately $500 million.

The minister will not answer. The minister will not answer that question. Will the minister answer this question: Will OHIP premiums paid in addition to the employer health tax levy for the period January, February and March 1990 amount to $435 million, as Mr Orsini testified last week before the economic affairs committee?

Hon Mr Mancini: The government is faced with the need to increase the level of health care funding. The honourable member knows that. At present, OHIP covers 13 per cent of health care costs. The government could have increased the OHIP premium rate to provide health care cost coverage to 16 per cent -- we could have done that -- which is approximately the level that will be covered by the employer health tax.

I want the honourable member to listen to this because he may want to get up later and say that we have not answered his questions. I want him to pay close attention to this: The cash flow impact of increasing OHIP premiums for an employer who is already paying 100 per cent of the OHIP premiums will not be any different to the cash flow demands that will be experienced as a result of the employer health tax startup. In fact, small employers get a three-month cash flow break.

The coverage becomes academic at this point. If the other option of staying within OHIP with increased premiums, if that particular avenue had been taken by the government, the employer obligation, I believe, would have been considerably more than it is today.

Mr Pope: I asked the minister to confirm statements that I did not make, that no member of the committee made, but that Mr Orsini made on behalf of the Ministry of Revenue last Thursday in the economic affairs committee. He himself testified, on page 37 of Instant Hansard for that day, that OHIP premiums paid in the month of December, due in the month of December, for the period of January, February and March 1990 would amount to $435 million. I think we are entitled to know whether that is correct or incorrect.

Hon Mr Mancini: With all due respect to my friend across the floor, he or some of his colleagues have put that same question to the Treasurer in the Legislature. The Treasurer has responded to those questions. I have been asked myself at different times about this particular matter. I have answered the member’s queries. He asked me just a moment ago for an explanation. I provided him a full explanation. He now wants to repeat his question, which is the same tack that he took just a few minutes ago on another matter.

I am prepared to proceed with the legislation. I am prepared to answer the member’s questions as best I can. If the member feels that he finds the answers unsatisfactory, all I can tell the member is that l am giving him the details as I know them.

Mr Cousens: Well, you don’t know enough, then.

Hon Mr Mancini: I am answering his questions. As for the interjection from the honourable gentleman behind him, I want to reiterate what I had the opportunity to say only last week, that my officials thoroughly briefed the members of the opposition who were serving as critics or support critics. They received the identical information that was provided to me.

The First Deputy Chair: Before we proceed for much longer, we are in committee and the member has every right in the world to ask any question he wants. The beauty of this place is that the minister has every right in the world to answer in any way that he sees fit. We can do this until the cows come home. It does seem to me that we have reached a point where the member has put his question many times and made his point. The minister has indicated his position many times and made his point. It certainly is getting a little repetitious. Why do we not try it one more time and then perhaps we can go to work for the afternoon?

Mr Pope: I think it is clear that this minister will not answer. He wants us to support his legislation, yet he will not answer rather basic questions. That is in line with the strategy of this government when it comes to bilking the people of this province in additional taxes. They will not answer for their legislation, nor do they have any idea of the impact on people in their daily lives of the legislation they are introducing here.

For two weeks the Minister of Health (Mrs Caplan) has steadfastly refused to admit that people are being double-billed. The people of this province are paying twice for the months of January, February and March 1990 for their health care system. An individual who comes to my constituency office with an OHIP premium notice in the month of December is being told to pay it, even though it is applicable to January, February and March of 1990. That same person, who will now be covered under the employer health tax payroll deduction scheme, will actually be subject to and be part of a double payment for OHIP services in this province for the months of January, February and March.

This minister, the Minister of Health and the Treasurer have stonewalled and refused to admit what they are doing to the people of this province, and that is bilking them out of hundreds of millions of dollars. They refuse to admit it. All that we had to have from any minister in this government was the gumption to stand up and tell the truth, that individuals were being asked to pay OHIP premiums for January, February and March of 1990 at the same time that their employers are going to be asked to pay a payroll tax deduction for January, February and March of 1990. We have seen nothing but stonewalling from three ministers in this government over the past three weeks on this issue.

Now we have a Minister of Revenue who will not confirm statements made by the member for Middlesex, a member of his own party and the parliamentary assistant to the Treasurer, who stated, in the transcript of Hansard last week from this committee, what the employer tax levy would bring to Ontario for three months in 1990, and by an official of the government to the same committee, on the very next page, that OHIP premiums for January, February and March would bring in $435 million, a clear statement by officials of this government that there is double taxation going on, and we cannot get one responsible minister to fess up and tell the truth to the people of this province about what is going on.

I think it is time we got some straight answers from a government that wants us to support its tax measures. If they do not want our support and they are going to plow ahead, that is fine, but the fact of the matter is that not one minister will stand up and admit what these officials had the courage to admit to the committee, that there is double taxation going on here and that there is a windfall to the Treasurer. Not one of them will say it; they do not have the gumption to come clean with the people of Ontario. We are just getting started on this debate until we get the truth.

The First Deputy Chair: Does the minister care to reply one final time?

Hon Mr Mancini: Yes. I can understand the concerns that come from across the floor because they support an OHIP system. My colleague across the floor would rather have OHIP premiums than an employer health tax, I know that. They have spoken out against the new employer health tax. They would rather have a premium-based system where some employers pay all of the premiums, some employers pay part of the premiums and some employers, I say to my colleagues here in the House, pay no premiums at all to support a health care system that we are very proud of, a health care system that costs a great deal of money to operate, $14 billion this year and more next year.

OHIP premiums, I want to say to the taxpayers who are watching, brought in 13 per cent of total health care expenditures. The new employer health tax is going to bring in 16 percent. Sixteen per cent of what? Sixteen per cent of $14 billion. We are not putting the entire load on employers, large or small. We are asking employers, large and small, to pay a fair share. We are giving a break to small employers. We are charging small employers only the half rate. We are putting $1 billion back into the pockets of Ontario citizens.

People who paid premiums through their own personal financial contributions will no longer have to make those payments. That is $450 million going back to those taxpayers. Individual citizens who had their premiums paid for them paid taxes on those taxable benefits. Now that is no longer the case, nearly another $400 million going back to the taxpayers.

Finally, and in conclusion, the member says that we are not answering the public’s questions. That is not true. I have been answering the public on a regular basis. With your co-operation, Mr Chairman, I would like to read into the record a letter that I just signed and put in the mail, if it is in order.

Mr Cousens: How can it be in the mail if it was just signed?

Hon Mr Mancini: This afternoon. It is addressed to a certain individual living within the province and it reads as follows:

“Thank you for your letter of October 24, 1989, regarding the elimination of Ontario health insurance plan premiums and the introduction of the new employer health tax in Ontario. The present OHIP premiums, currently payable by individuals or an employer, have long been viewed as being somewhat regressive in that they place a large burden on those low-income families that do not qualify for premium assistance. As a result, the government made a commitment in 1985 to eliminate OHIP premiums and at the same time introduce a system of universal health care.

“Also, the Social Assistance R