Manitoba Hansard — 58 and 1959 (Sitting 55, 27th Legislature, 1st Session)

27-1-55

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8: 00 o•clock Thursday, April 18th, 1963. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 3 -- passed. Item 4 -- passed. Item 5. Department passed. MR. PETERS: On item 3, I think there were some answers and I expect one. MR. WEIR: The Honourable Member for Elmwood enquired earlier whether or not an approach had been made on a subway. on Nairn Avenue. The answer is, not to my knowledge. The Honourable Member for Rhineland asked for the maintenance cost per mile on No. 32 Highway. The answer is in the annual report. It shows a cost of $461.33. The Honourable Member for Radisson, the Leader of the NDP, mentioned stakes going up on this particular

section of road which we have been discussing and he indicated that he thought this was a reason for early construction of the road. Well, Mr. Chairman, this I think probably was true and has been true recently in the not too distant past, and as it happens we are hoping that this may not always be the case, because we are attempting to get our planning far enough in advance so that.we have early engineering and some of our roads may be survey ed some little distance ahead of the actual project. Most of the on- site engineering has been done on this location and would not need to be done again.

He spoke about St. Anne •s Road and the only answer I can give there is that I1ll have it checked. I'm not up on the surface of St. Anne •s Road but I will have it checked, The Honourable Member for St. Boniface and his suggestion with regard to a commis sion, I think that the only thing I could say there· is that this is a matter of policy and, until such time as policy were decided, I have no comment, The only other point I think that I think I should mer,tion was that there were some re quests for traffic counts and traffic flow maps.

I regard this as inter-departmental reports and I am not prepared to make them available. MR. PETERS: Mr. Chairman, getting back to Nairn Avenue, the Minister did give me an answer that nobody had approached him to the construct�on of a subway or an overpass. Could he tell me if Nairn Avenue is a joint provincial -Metr� responsibility or is it just a Metro responsibility now? MR. WEIR: On Nairn Avenue we have contributed on the work that has been done, so it would be Metro and the Province of Manitoba. MR. TANCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I just have one question to ask.

I would like to know what progress has been made on negotiations between the Uniterl States and the Government of Manitoba regarding the Mississippi Parkway. MR. WEIR: Mr. Chairman, there has been no recent progress. The agreement has been signed, subject to the passing of legislation in the Congress of the United States, and it sits there at that point and the agreement is not binding until such time as the legislation is passed. MR. HILLHOUSE: Mr. Chairman, the other night I asked the Honourable Minister a question regarding a request which had been made by his engineers to the Municipality of St.

Andrews in respect to the reconstruction of No. 9 north from Selkirk to Netley. I think the request was that the municipality would pay one -half of the culvert costs under the CPR right of-way. At that time the Minister did not have the answer to that question but he said he would get it. Have you been able to get the answer? MR. WEIR: Mr. Chairman, the answer hasn •t come to me yet. If it doesn •t come by the time wc•ve finished Estimates, I'll convey it to you privately, MR. MOLGA T: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if I could ask the Minister whether the plans for one specific piece of highway in the Province of Manitoba - - it has a rather unusual situation in that it •s I •m sure the shortest piece of highway in Province of Manitoba with a number to it and I 'm referring to No, 19 highway -- total length, 3 miles. It hink that•s the sum and total of the whole of the highway, Now back in 19 58, Mr. Chairman, when this government first came in office, the then Minister of Public Works included No. 19 highway in his estimates and he then had it down as grading, gravelling and structures.

In the following year -- this was in November of 1958 --then in the summer Session of 1959, again itwas included in the estimates: No. 19 Highway, additio nal grav el and prime, The only difficulty, Mr. Chairman, is that the first project was not undertaken in the meantime and still hasn •t been undertaken, so obviously we were unable to proceed with additional gravel and prime, not having undertaken the original construction, Now this is back in 1958 and 1959, and since then we've had tbe sheets for 1960, 1961, 1962and this year 1963, andldo n•t find No, i9 Highway, the April 18th, 1963 Page 1337

(Mr. Molgat, cont•d.) • • shortest highway in Manitoba, just a question of three miles into the Riding Mountain National Park, the only entrance on the west' side, included, I wonder if the Minister could tell me what are the plans. MR . WEIR: Mr. Chairman, in everything that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition said, I could only find one mistake, It•s not quite the shortest highway. I think if I•m not mis taken, No. 29 is something less than a mile. It•s so small that we can•t mark it on the map.

It•s down at Emerson, the little connection between 75 at the Customs down there, but this is the only mistake that I could find in the statement that he•s made and all I can give him is the same answer that I gave him last year. Strange as it may seem I know to the honourable gen tleman, we have been unable to establish priority on this particular road. I am the first to acknowledge that there are times of the year when it makes it difficult. Also, the standard.of the road -- once you get to the Park you have a similar standard although it hasn •t got the drainage problems that it has on this side.

I think if we wanted to be real honest with one an other, I think that we would agree that one of the main problems in this regard is drainage and that the main salvation would be the drainage that it would provide to the area. , I don•t begrudge it to the area in any way, shape or form. I would like to provide it as soon as priority can be - established on this road, and it will be considered again for the program next year. I give no definite commitments to my honourable friend but it will be considered again for next year's program, and that•s about the only thing that I can say, Mr. Chairman. MR. MORRIS A.

GRAY (Inkster): Mr. Chairman, just one question, it will just take a minute. Would the government or the Minister of Publlc Works consider next time when they make their recommendations to the House about roads, to consult the two leaders in the House and they could probably change around-- I'm not suggesting spending more money-- I would like to spend all the money possible to satisfy everybody -- but if this is impossible, perhaps one of those on the list could be eliminated for that particular year and another one substituted. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the Minister for his statement.

It•s identical to the one he gave me last year. ,At least he•s being consistent in his approach. I'm sorry I didn't realize that there was a shorter highway in the province. I certainly couldn't find one on the map. Insofar as priorities, Mr. Chairman, I can only refer. him back to the estimates of one of his predecessors, way back in 1958 and 1959 when it apparently had priorities at that stage and was included in the programs twice in a row and has since disappeared. I'd only want to make this point on the highway. It•s not really a particular constituency problem, as the Min ister knows.

The highway really is of main concern to other people who are going into the Rid ing Mountain National Park. I admit readily that inside the Park the road is not as high stan dard but as he says, it hasn1t got the drainage problem and it's passable,

whereas the portion down on the flats is frequently impassable because of the drainage problem there and the shale problem, and insofar as getting tourist traffic into the Park, I would appeal to the Minister once again to let•s get this three miles cleared up. It•s not a big problem; let•s get it done and on the way. Mr.Chairman, I want to refer for a moment to the statements of the Minister regarding traffic counts. Now, did I understand him correctly to say that these were internal matters and not interdepartmental?

It seems to me that back in the 11good old days, " 1956 -- which is the particular one I have at hand here -- that these were public statements and that this in formation was available to any interested individuals, and I would recommend to the Minister that these be made public. The discussion we had this afternoon would not occur if my honour able friend made these figures available and obvious they be followed, then we would get away every year from the discussion that was involved.

I strongly recommend to him that_he make available to the Members of the House the traffic counts in the various localities and give us the diagrams. MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr. Chairman, when the Minister introduced his remarks at the beginning of his estimates he said he expected to hear from me in regard to No. 6 Highway. Well, he•s quite right. The Minister last year took the trouble to travel over No. 6, which I appreciate. The First Minister honoured us with his presence last year on Friday, July 13th, and talked to a number of people in the constituency, including some council members.

I wasn't present but I got the impression that they got the impression- some of them anyway -- that some s tepa would be taken on No. 6 Highway this year, Page 1338 April 18th, 1963

(Mr. Guttormson, cont1d,) •••• particularly north of St. Laurent. Last year the Minister was good enough to put some material on No. 6 north of St. Laurent towards Eriksdale, and for a temporary period the highway was certainly much better to travel on, However, I regret to inform him that the highway is in dire trouble again. There are potholes all over the high way right now, particularly north of St. Laurent, and hardly a motorist travels over this stretch of highway without getting a broken headlight or another broken part of his car.

I recall one in stance when I broke three headlights on one trip on the highway; and people are rather concern ed. They had been led to believe by various Ministers -- and I'm not referring to the present Minis ter because he made no promises -- but the First Minister did at a meeting at Ashern on one occasi on; the Attorney-General is quoted as having made a promise regarding No. 6, and up till this time the highway north of St.

Laurent has not been improved upon and at the present time it•s in a deplorable state --it's full of potholes --and I would like the Minister to advise me on what plans he has for this stretch of road which is causing a lot of concern. Some peo - ple have advised me they have written the First Minister complaining about the road and they -are very concerned about it. The traffic count, as I know it, I understand is very high on this particular stretch of highway and they•re very anxious that something be done. Nothing has been done since the former government . • • . No pavement has been put on north of St.

Laurent since this government took office, and there is a lot of concern over it. Perhaps the Minister could indicate what plans he has for it. MR. WEIR: Mr. Chairman, I think that all I can do for the honourable member is re peat for him the message I tried to give him last year, and when he speaks of promises I don•t think at least I'm reas onably sure that he •s not referring to me. because I don •t think I •ve been in the habit of mall:lng too many.

The only thing that I can say is that I'm not prepared to recom mend any expensive surface treatment on No. 6 Highway until such time as Grand Rapids is completed and the heavy traffic is over it and it's a fairly unequiv ocal statement I think .

This is the stand that I• ve taken and the department agrees with me, and the only thing that is being done is some construction this year and I would anticipate the balance of the construction from Grahamdale north as far as grading is concerned in the not too distant future, but I don't think I take the Honourable Member altogether by surprise when I give him this answe r. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Cha irman, in fairness to the Minister, he's never .made any promises in connection with this matter. It was other ministers of the Crown that have .

I think he made an error -- probably it was a slip of the tongue --when he said they were grad ing from Grahamdale North. I don1t believe that is correct; I think it •s Hilbre north. But could the minister indicate what might be done on a temporary basis. If the government isn't prepared to recommend hard topping on No. 6 highway until the Grand Rapids project is com pleted, could he indicate what they will do to ease the situation until he feels that they can go ahead with it? MR. WEIR: Yes Mr. Chairman, I can. Gravel and calcium is scheduled for 40 miles north of Eriksdale this coming year. MR .

GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, so what about between Eriksdale and St. Laurent which has gone to pothole s? I know the Minister had his department work on this stretch of road last year but for what reasons I don't know it didn't stand up, and it was my understanding that this-type of treatment would probably stand up for two years, and it just hasn't. Potholes are all over the :road for the most part between St. Laurent and Eriksdale, the area that was fixed last year, and it's virtually as bad as it was before the treatment was put on last fall. Now, is the Minister not going to consider doing something about this?

MR . WEIR: Mr. Chairman; all I can say is that we will have a look to see what we can do about that particular area. The only reason that I can think of that it might be this bad is probably the type of traffic that is over the road, and I really haven't enough information be fore. me to answer him definitely, but we will certainly have a look at it to see what can be done. MR . GUTTORMSON: And I understood the Minister to say that calcium and some other --what did you say, calcium and .... ? MR . WEIR: Gravel. MR . GUTTORMSON: .•••• gravel will be put on for 40 miles north of Eriksdale this coming summer?

Thank you. April 18th, 1963 Page 13 39

MR . SHOEMAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie has brought to light what appears to be an error in the annual report that is before us, and I would like to bring to light what appears to be another one. I refer to page 108 of the Annual Report, the first item on the page -- (Interjection) -- Page 108 in the annual report. District No. 5, it says, Plumas Waldersee Road, Work Order No. 91, Seal Coat, R. M. of Westbourne, 14 miles, expenditure $21, 329.36. Now, I take it from that that they are referring to the 14 miles between Plum as and Waldersee as having received a seal coat treatment.

It certainly has not received a seal coat treatment ; . in fact there 1s only three miles of it that are blacktopped. The other eleven miles, I think, had some grade construction done on it, but certainly there was no 14 miles there that received seal coat. Now it may be in error again, but if it is in error again, it makes me wonder just what part of the annual report that we can accept a·s being the gospel. If we have dug up two errors, how many more are there? Now, Mr.

Chairman, quite a little bit of discussion has taken place on both sides of the House as regards traffic counts, and I have always maintained that they are very, very impor tant. If a -- and I•ve asked this question on several occasions -- when does a municipal road become a secondary highway, if it is not by traffic count? When does a secondary highway qualify for a PTH unless it's established by traffic count?

And I raised this point three or four or five years ago and asked the then Minister of Public Works if a municipality requested a traffic counter from the department, would they loan it to a municipality to establish the traffic count to support their claim or request for a municipal road to become a secondary highway. The then Minister of Public Works suggested that that was possible, but he also recommended that it might not be a bad idea for the Union of Municipalities to buy a limited number of traffic counters that could be loaned or·rented to the various municipalities for this express purpose.

And I would like, Mr. Chairman, for the Honourable Minister to tell us, if he can, what in his estimation, or when in his estimation should a municipal road qualify as a secondary high way and at what point in a traffic count should a secondary highway qualify for a PTH number ing, or a hundred percent highway, or whatever you like. I think that they must consider, too, the foreign traffic through the area. Now, about a year ago now, the government considered that the Neepawa- Carberry road-- I don't know how they arrived at this decision -- but they declared that it would qualify for a 100 percent road.

I know that I had suggested at that time, and probably two or three years prior to that, that in my estimation 75 percent of the traffic on the Neepawa-Carberry road was foreign traffic, and I still maintain that is so and I want to thank the honourable minister for accepting it as a 100 percent road. Now when we are dealing on the subject matter of the Carberry road, I note, Mr.

Chairman, that on the projects listed on the green sheets that are before us on page 4, I believe, -- yes page 4 -- Item No. 5, Carberry-Neepawa Road, 8 miles, commencing at PTH No. 1 and north for 8 miles, that they propose in 1963 to grade and gravel this portion of what we refer to in Neepawa as the Carberry Road. And I want to thank the honourable minister for that. I might suggest that I might have been happier had he started from PTH No. 4 and work ed south, but at least we •ve got a start on it.

I would like to ask my honourable friend, has he considered -- no doubt he has given some consideration to this -- the proposed Highway No. 28? And by that I mean that

section of territory l;letween Neepawa and Cartwright. For some seven, eight, or nine or ten years, I guess, there has been in existence in this province an organization known as The Proposed Highway No. 28 Association, and the reason for it being an Association is that there is in United States a highway numbered 28 that commences south of Cartwright and leads directly to the Gulf of Mexico, and it's 28 -- U. S. No. 28. This organiza tion, in following through with that of course, suggested that inasmuch as the U.S.

Highway No. 28 stops at the border south of Cartwright, it would be common sense to continue that highway through to Manitoba, and continue up to Neepawa and thence No. 5 right up to Flin Flon and so on. Now on page 43 of the "Manitoba Highways Planning for Tomorrow, 11 under the heading "Urgent Needs as of January 1, 1960, 11 it shows, as outlined as an urgent need, this proposed No. 28 Highway. My two questions, Mr.

Chairman, would be, since it is a fact that they pro pose to do some work on the Neepawa-Carberry highway-- it isn1t numbered yet-- do they intend to number it -- it is a 100 percent road -- 28 in accordance with the request of the Proposed . Highway No. 28 Association, and do they intend to extend it to Cartwright eventually? Is that in Page 1340 April 18th, 1963

(Mr. Shoemaker, cont 'd.) • • • . their plans for the future? Now, there is another stretch of road that is in the vicinity of the Plumas-Wa ldersee Road, and I know that my honourable friend is familiar with this one; and it is the new road that was put in a year or two ago link ing Plumas to Langruth. You might call it the Plumas -Langruth Road. I think at the moment that it is only considered a municipal road. It•s a very important stretch of road because it does enable the people from Plumas to go to Langruth or the people from Langruth to go to Plumas, a distance of about 20 miles,

whereas in previous years they had to travel a distance of some 55· miles, I think, to go around, so they do consider it a pretty important road, and I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that surely this piece of road could now be considered a secondary highway. I don •t think at the moment that it is considered a .secondary highway, but I suggest that it might qualify for one, and probably all the municipalitie s have to do is request that it be a secondary highway. I would like to know the procedure in this regard. Mr.

Chairman, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition referred to the shortest highway in Manitoba. !think we have since learned that it is the second shortest highway in Manitoba, but !un derstand that plans are under way, and the se maybe joint provincial-federal plans for a highway somewhere from No. 19 highway to the new Agassiz ski project, that there is a road under consider ation, or a proposed highway that would lead somewhere from a point on No. 19 to the new Agassiz ski development. I would be interested if my honourable friend could tell us whether there are any plans for such a highway. MR .

TANCHAK: Mr. Chairm an, there •s one .thing !learned here today, that !have the honour to represent the constituency with the shortest highway in Manitoba. I hope that the Minister is right and !believe he is. He should know. We always considered this as an access road, because it leads from the 75 into Emerson and is practically the only good road that leads into the fair-sized town of Emerson, but ifit is a highway, then it's the same highway that was discussed here this afternoon, the St, Mary•s highway, or St.

Mary•s Road, because it's on the same road; it's just the extreme end of that road, following the Red River from Winnipeg here -- from the Red River along the east side and then it terminates at Emerson; goes through Dominion City, crosses the river at Dominion City and on to Emerson, and on from Emerson to the 75. So!hope that this was a good start. We •ve got some half a mile ofblack surfacing done. I hope the Minister keeps it up and keeps black surfacing it till he reaches the black surface part --on the St. Mary•s at the Winnipeg end. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Chairman, I take it we're on Item 4, and there 's two large amounts under •.••.• One is (a); there 's $3, 150, 000, and (

d) which is $3, 600, 000 . 00. I wonder if we could have some kind of break-down on these figures, especia lly on (d), 4 (d), which mentions Special Projects . Could the Minister tell us what special projects are included in this item? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, during the debate on bridges and roads in the past day, I have made two specific requests for traffic counts on a specific bridge. Do I understand the Minister, the Honourable Minister to say that he is denying this request?

I take by the nod of the head that he is certainly denying it, and I'm going to make this request in the form of an Order for Return. MR. CAMPBE LL: •.• ••••• probable that the Minister prefers to get a few more ques tions before he answers. I have not been in the committee all of the time that the discussion has been in progress and I may have missed these items that I• m referring to. I'd inform the Minister that I' m not talking about my own constituency. I, oddly enough -- he •ll probably be surprised to hear that the first question I •m going to ask has to do with the metropolitan area of Winnipeg.

Has the Minister given the House the information as yet as to how many miles in Metropolitan Winnipeg are considered as -- or designated as -- provincial trunk highways? And in addition to that, would he tell us the formula for the provincial contribution to those provincial trunk highways? I think I remember the one that obtained some years ago --I don't know whether that one is still in force or whethe r there is a changed one -- and is it on the basis of per mile, or is it on a flat rate or some other formula? Then I wanted to say a word about the contribution that was made by the Honourable the Member for St.

John's with regard to the proposal for the completion of the bridge on the Red River and work on the north perimeter. I think that this is an outstanding case of where the completion of a bridge will greatly increase the traffic count, and I would think that the infor mation that the Honourable Member for St. John •s has been asking for would not give the accur ate information as to the need of the bridge, because this is a case in point w�?-ere the traffic, April 18th, 1963 Page 1341

(Mr. Campbell, cont•d.) •••• in my .opinion, is much less now than that traffic would .be once the bridge is provided, and I'm one who certainly thinks that that bridge is necessary. In fact, I would be inclined to -- well if he didn •t dispute it --I notice he •s not in his seat now --if he didn •t dispute it he thought that the cost could be better, the expenditure could be better provided in other places. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I may ••• ••• MR. CAMPBELL: No, you may not. If the Honourable Member for St.

John's wishes to say something when he comes in, why I'd be very glad to hear him say that, but as I under stood him he had suggested that the expenditure that was provided for there could be better used in some other way. Well my honourable friend says ''no", but that's the way I under stood him, until he -- quite ffankly I'd rather have his explanation than my honourable friend's of what he did say, because I think that the explanation by the honourable member for St. John •s would probably be intelligible. MR. PAULLEY: I want to thank my honourable friend, the Member for Lakeside, for that compliment. MR.

CAMPBELL: You1re very welcome. Don't call it a compliment; call it realism. My opinion is that that bridge is very necessary; that the highway on both sides of the river is being prejudiced in its usefulness by the fact that the bridge has not yet been provided, and I would be inclined to criticize the government for delay in providing that bridge rather than in doing so now, because, Mr.

Chairman, to me it seems very evident that the traffic situation in Winnipeg proper, and in some of the suburbs as well, will be greatly, greatly relieved by the provision of these perimeter bridges, because you have this huge north-west area where the trucking industry -- and I speak particularly of it, although it is by no means limited to the trucking industry --can make use of that bridge to.go across to the east side where the mill ing industry and the packing industry and quite a bit of other industry is to a considerable ex tent localized, and then from the other point of view the area from the other side of the river that is wanting to go across into the main part of the City of Winuipeg proper, or any other place west of the Red River, can make use of that bridge.

And I would think that the traffic count will be immeasurab ly greater once the bridge is provided than it would be at the same time. I think this .is a case.where it.would give a completely distorted pic:ture t() ma�. the decision just on the basis of a traffic count alone, Then I want to ask my honourable friend the Minister if he dealt with the proposed or exact location of the east perimeter road. Is it to parallel the floodway exactly from the Trans Canada: Highway north to meet with No. 4? Does it parallel it further than that distance? What is the location of it?

If this has been dealt with, all the Minister needs to tell me is that it has been covered and I'll be glad to look it up; and if it parallels it exactly between those two pro vincial trunk highways, which side is it on? I assume on the inside -- the side next to the city. And is it to be built as a companion project with the floodway itself?

I would be inter ested in that discussion because I really believe that the perimeter roads .. are very important to the metropolitan area as a whole, and I believe that the completion of the perimeter roads --and I'm aware of the fact that in my opinion the east side does not suffer anything like the extent to which the north side does because Highway No. 59 is there to take that traffic to a considerable degree at the present time --but I would think the area would benefit by the wider .. route as well. I have mentioned to the committee on more than one occasion, Mr.

Chairman, that I'm one of the politicians who is willing to admit that he has been wrong sometimes, and I was one that was wrong -- I believe it now --in connection with the location of tlie perimeter highway to the south. I did my level best when I had some responsibility in the matter, I did my level best to try and encourage the engineers to find a south perimeter route this side of the university.

The gentleman sitting in the gallery at the present time drove with me and with some other ministers, and no doubt drove more times .than that with his own engineers and others, to try to find a route this side of the university, and I was one who was most anxious to see that that should be done, and I am afraid that I would have to plead guilty to having held up the work of the department to some extent in asking them to canvass that situation more and more care fully. And I am aware now, Mr. Minister, that it is better that we didn't find a route this side.

I think it's better to have the highway the distance that it is, and I think that has probably Page 1342 April 18th, 1963

(Mr. Campbell, cont•d.) •••. been true in connection with the east highway, because I was one that really thought that 59 at that time would be an acceptable long-time east perimeter highway, but I can see now that it's better that we should have one further east as well.

So I do not try to pretend that I foresaw all of the things that were going to happen in the future, but I think that one thing that was done in those days, and I'm prepared to give the main credit of it to the engineering staff of the department, and particularly to George Collins who worked day and a lot of the night in order to try and find good locations, and my honourable friend the Minister will know what I mean when I say that in some particulars we had to sort of work in the dark, because it was advantageous to the public interest that not too many people should get too good an idea of where we planned on going -- and this took a lot of doing; and I give a lot of credit to the people, particularly to George Colllns, the Deputy Minister, for the work that was done at that time.

And it won't be perfect, of course, but I think that taking it by and large the perimeter routes around this city were designed just about as well as could possibly have been done under the circumstances that existed at that time. It's all very well to say that if we had looked at them a few years earlier that it would have been easier to do, It would have been a lot easier yet to have done it back in 1910, or •20, or 130 -- but who really expected that we were going to face this kind of a situation as quickly as we did?

I think that the perimeter route situation here is something that has an immediate effect on the traffic situation within Greater Winnipeg as a whole, and I think that the completion of the perimeter route -- and my .only criticism of the government is that they have not pressed ahead with the perimeter route as quickly as I think they should have done - I think that the com pletion of it will mean that the bridges within Metropolitan Winnipeg, the bridge situation will be considerably eased by the completion of that route. So I1m sorry if I have misquoted the Honourable Member for St. John•s.

I listened very carefully to what he said; he said it twice, and if he feels that he should correct it, I'll be very glad to hear his corrections. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I just rise on this particular point. The Honourable the Member for St. John's has just left the Chamber for a wee while on business pertaining to hiS position as an MLA, I may assure you, Mr. Chairman. But I do want to, I think interpret or re-emphasize what my colleague from St. John's said this afternoon in respect of the peri meter road.

If I recall correctly, and I, too, listened very intently to what he said, he said that insofar as the bridge is concerned that is suggested on the north perimeter road crossing the Red River, that he was all in favour of it, On the other hand, however, he questioned whe ther the expenditures for clover-leafs, or the likes of this, in the perimeter road should be done at this particular time.

So I want to say to the Honourable Member for Lakeside, whe ther he would like to listen to me or not -- and as far as that honourable gentleman and myself are concerned I think we do have differences of opinion now and again, and will continue to have them, I presume, as long as we1re both in this House -- but I do want to emphasize again, Mr. Chairman, that my colleague from St. John's was not opposing in any way, shape or form the building of the bridge as contemplated in the connecting link of the perimeter high way around Greater Winnipeg.

Again I say, he emphasized the fact that this bridge was necessary as are other bridges. He emphasized the fact that the Redwood Bridge is a bridge which has almost outlived its use fulness because of its age and would have to be replaced, or another one in its stead. He did the same in respect of the Louise Bridge, but he did not object to the completion of the bridge in the north perimeter route, and I want to make that statement following the Honourable Mem ber for Lakeside who, in his opinion, or as he listened, as he said to the Honourable Member for St.

John's this afternoon, the Honourable Member for Lakeside said, 11as he understood it. 11 This is that the member was opposing the bridge on the north perimeter route, and I think that the records should be corrected at this particular time, or at least the remarks of my honourable friend for Lakeside. The Member for St. John's did not oppose the building of a road across the Red River north of the City of Winnipeg, He •s in favour of it; he is not in fa vour of many of the cloverleafs and the likes of that that are before us in the plan that we have in this House at the present time, · MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, it usually develops that when my honourable friend the Leader of the New Democratic Party and I get into an argument that it t*es more time April 18th, 1963 Page 1343

(M r. Campbell, cont•d.) •••• tban the value that evolves therefrom, but I just happen to have, and I didn't know tbat I had it here when I first spoke, 'the Hansard of what the honourable gentle man said, page 1299, and I think it pretty easy to take from it that it was the program that is outlined that he was objecting to. Now, of course, it is not only a bridge, but it's the program, because he begins by saying -- middle of page 1299 -- 11Mr.

Chairman, I understood from tbe Honourable Minister when he spoke of this magnificent looking plan which is in this Chamber dealing with the north perimeter highway, that it was planned that all this work was to be com pleted witbin the next three years, and I assume from what I heard that it is planned that the bridge will be completed, tbe cloverleaf intersections, tbe graded highway. Before I go fur tber with what I have to say, I wonder if the Minister could nod or shake his head so I'll know.

He is nodding his head, so that I understood him correctly. 11 Then he gave credit for the fore sightedness of the government -- preceding government -- and 11let tbem accept tbe credit as they please. The foresight in planning a perimeter highway is that of seeing to it that as an urban area grows it will be properly serviced with this type of highway, 11 and so on, 11But I cannot justify in my own mind the urgency with which tbe government has proceeded with this perimeter highway.

I would have been satisfied had the necessary work been done to secure the rights-of-way� to see to it that the land was reserved for construction at a time when the traffic would justify it; but I do not believe that the traffic today justifies the expenditure of the money today and in tbe next few years which is planned in this work. 11 Well, I, -- MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if my honourable friend .••.•.. MR. CAMPBELL: No, my honourable friend I happen to have the floor-- (Interjection) -- Courtesy is a two-way street, Mr. Chairman •.••••• MR .

PAULLEY: I wanted to save you from the embarrassment of the next two or three sentences of my honourable member's discussion in tbis House. MR . CAMPBELL: ..• .••• that•s fine. The honourable member's here now and he can speak for himself.

Now, what I would want to say .as one who does not bear a reputation for urging great extravagance as a general practice, I want to say that the experience that I have had in this kind of planning means that it•s much more economical in the long run if you do the whole job at one time, because it1s very easy to see from what we have seen up to date that it will be needed within a few years. And I cmifess once again tbat we have seen mistakes made in our time in not having looked forward far enough.

I1m s.ure that lots of other govern ments have done the same thing, and I would say that the time to do this job is when you •re building the bridge, because it's a way more costly to do it later on. If you want an example of it -- and this comes in our time, and I never try to escape the implications of a situation of that kind -- all you need to do is look at the bridges, the two Assiniboine bridges between here and Portage la Prairie on the No. 1 Highway. There's a. case of a serious mistake having been made by not looking far enough into the future.

This was in our time, and I'm not asham ed of it because we were not the only government concerned, and this is something that will indicate to you how mistakes can be made, because this was an agreement between the two gov ernments, federal and provincial, and if you will go back and search the agreement of that time you will find that the Trans-Canada agreement at that time provided only for a bridge of that width, and we made a mistake, in Manitoba, in that if we had caught the significance of it at that time, we would have out of provincial funds alone widened those bridges to four lanes, and we•d have still saved money by doing it that way.

But these things happen in many many cases, and I'm sure that I would want to say to the ;Minister that I tbink that they would not save but they would waste money if they didn't do the whole job at one time. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, as indicated by the Honourable Member for Lakeside there is some difference of opinion between the two of us, he took the time to take a look at the Hansard of April 17th and he quoted from Hansard on Page 1299 a few of the remarks that were made by my honourable colleague the Member for St. John's. He could have continued, however, Mr.

Chairman, in reading into the record once again the remarks of my colleague, when he went on to say, following the remarks that the Member for Lakeside has quoted; so I want to, even though my honourable friend for Lakeside would not allow me to interject while he was speaking, to place correctly on the record the reference of my colleague from St. John's in respect of the bridge. I think it might have saved the Honourable Member from Lake side a little embarrassment if he had continued to read just two more sentences from where he Page 1344 April 18th, 1963

(Mr. Paulley, cont•d.) .••• stopped, Mr. Chairman, and I want to just read those sentences following where my honourable friend from Lakeside cut off. My friend from St. John's had stated that in his opinion he didn't think that the traffic counts would justify the completion of the perimeter road on the east side of the river. He went on to say, "but I do not believe that the traffic today justifies the expenditure of the money today and in the next few years which is planned on this work, 11 dealing with the question of the perimeter highway.

"I wonder, " and I'm quoting from Page 299, the Honourable Member for St. John's -- (Interjection) 299, the one you quoted from -- or 1299, the one you quoted from -- my honourable colleague goes on to say: 111 wonder, and I'll make a categoric statement so that it can be challenged, I would suggest that not sufficient origin destination studies have been made, nor traffic counts taken to indicate a justification for the extensive work which is now planned for the immediate future. 11 Then my collea,.O'Ue went on and this is the significant point, Mr, Chairman.

He states, "I believe that the bridge is justified; I believe it's necessary; I believe it is justified mainly because we don't have sufficient bridges south of that bridge and therefore since the govern ment has announced that there would be a bridge there, many of us feel that it is necessary to proceed with it. " My Honourable friend from Lakeside would not allow me to draw this to his attention, Mr. Chairman. I've done it now and I sincerely trust and hope that the Honourable Member for Lakeside who said that he was listening very closely to the remarks of my colleague from St.

John's when_ this matter was under discussion, will now know that insofar as my col league is concerned he•s in favour of the bridge as I've stated to the Honourable Member for Lake side. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, it must be very edifying for the Honourable Member for St.

John's to sit here and listen to his speech being interpreted by -- (Interjection) -- two such good interpreters, and I was making the point --I didn't intend to confine my remarks only to the bridge; I was speaking of the-whole program, and if we would just read from where my honourable friend, the Leader of the New Democratic Party, left off; if we would just -read again towards the bottom of Page 1299: "I can•t justify in my own mind much of the elaborate work which is planned on the east side of the bridge, although I realize that there has to be be cause of the proximity of the highway to the river, there must be a overpass planned, 11 I•m not trying to criticize my honourable friend's point of view except to point out the fact that I believe that here is one case of where thg traffic surveys in advance will not tell the whole story because that road cannot be made use of in the way that it will be until the bridge is built, and I think that is the point of my remarks, MR .

CHERNIACK: •.• , ••• I do appreciate the fact that the words I said were of some use to some honourable members to carry on the debate. I apologize for not being present. I was waiting to speak to the Honourable Leader of my honourable friend from Lakeside and_ it's a good thing I came back because apparently he .is still busy. Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't want to continue the discussion that has already taken place. I've listened to it with interest and I think that the words which I have heard read from Hansard are still the words with which I agree.

I did make the point at the stage where my honourable friend from Lakeside stopped reading, and I went on to say something about intersection traffic lights, and I would beg to remind both the Honourable Member from Lakeside and members of this House, that if you go on Portage Avenue west, and I wonder at the fact that the Honourable Member from Assiniboia has not mentioned it, you do come to an intersection just north of - he did mention it, I'm glad to hear that -- you come to an intersection just north of the peri meter bridge where there's a traffic light, and if ever I thought that there was justification for an overpass it would be on the No. 1 highway out west, but instead of that-- and the Honourable Member from Lakeside believes that this should have been done.

I don't know which govern ment did it; I'm too new around here to give credit or lay blame, but I'm in the fortunate posi tion that I don •t have to worry about which government did anything that has been done recently; but whichever government did it according to the Honourable Member from Lakeside was short sighted, If, however, the intersection there was correctly planned, obviously the intersection planned for the north perimeter -- and that•s what I dealt with -- is not needed yet and is not justifiable, and I must tell my honourable friend from Lakeside, whose experience is so much greater than mine, that I have learned a little bit in the last few years and that is that traffic counts do not tell the story alone.

I agree with him. But origin and destinat�on studies do tell April 18th, 1963 Page 1345

(Mr. CherniacJ.t. cont •d.) • • • • you an awful lot, and if you would start with the people who are travelling south in the north-western portion of the perimeter -- I mean northwest of the perimeter -- and find out where they are going, We knew their origin, What is their destina tion?

And if we discovered that they're go ing to Elmwood or East St, Paul, that justifies a forecast of the traffic that would go over the bridge and would get into difficulties in the inter section, but if you discover that where they are going is continuing to be west of the Red River, then it questions very much the justification for an elaborate intersection. Now I felt and I feel that the perimeter was justified, The plan for getting the land was very much justified, The bridge is justified.

I even mentioned the overpass that I see on the east side of the river is justified because of the proximity of the road to the river, I think it can•t be done otherwise, But that intersection which I think would cost a lot of money I don't think is justified; wasn•t justified to my mind by the Minister's statement that it was economi cally ,--I forget the words, but they were good -- they were a good sequence of words about the economic justification, He did not convince me of that, He didn't try, because he didn•t bring any figures; he certainly didn't justify it on the basis of statistics.

I hope I have some how clarified the position I took, MR . GUTTORMSON; I don't know whether the matter was discussed when I was out of the House or not, but what plans are made for the perimeter road north of Portage Avenue at the race track, at that particular point, and are you planning to put a cloverleaf at that parti cular area? MR . MOLGAT : Mr.

Ch airman, while the Minister is answering regarding this particu.� lar matter on the perimeter route, could he in fact give u.s the projected plans for the comple tion of the perimeter -- all those portions that are still not connected -- so that we can have an over-all idea of what his plans are for the completion of this important artery in the Winni peg area, MR .

WEIR: Well Mr, Ch airman, if I might reply to some of these remarks that have been ma de, I think I'll start at the bottom end with the perimeter highway, and the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has enquired about the completion of the perimeter highway, It's im possible to tell exactly because it will be determined largely by what happens as the various sections are joined together, The

section north of Portage that was enquired into by the Honourable Member for St. George; all that has happened so far is purchase of right-of-way, We1ve been purchasing considerable right-of-way on the strip going north from the race track and we have no sche duled date for completion or for grading of that

section as yet, As I replied to the Honourable Member for Assiniboia the other day, right-of-way has been -- or some has been and some is being negotiated for in term s of a great interchange at the junction, Traffic density doesn•t warrant it at this stage of the game. There is considerable difference, if I may be so bold as to mention it following the remarks of the Honourable Member from St.

John's, between the intersection at No. 1 and the intersection at that 4 and the perimeter, one being that No, 4 is a heavier travelled route, the other being that No. 59 is a heavier travelled route; the other being that No, 9 is there and you have one intersection carrying traffic on the east end, There are short periods· during the year when there is heavy traffic at that particular intersection, and the heaviest time is the season of the year when the races are on themselves, lt1s a re latively short period of the day, It•s only affected really when the races are coming out, when they have to cross the traffic going in, The majority of traffic goes with the yield and there is no stop, So actually there is a terrific difference between these two intersections, The Honourable Member for Lakeside enquired as to how many miles of highway within Metropolitan Winnipeg, The answer is 27.585 miles.

I presume when he was speaking of the grant arrangements he was requesting -- the maintenance grant is $1,000 a mile. MR. CAMPBELL: •••••••.••••••• MR.

WEIR: Well, construction -- in some areas it's 100 percent in some of the out lying municipalities, and some areas -- it's 60 -40 with the Metropolitan Winnipeg, the streets that they have taken over, and some areas the Province is paid 100 percent of either two or four travelling lanes with the understanding that the municipality will do the parking lanes as their share when the time comes when storm sewer is installed and the other various techni calities that do come up, Page 1346 April 18th, 1963

(Mr. Weir, cont• d.) .••• The Honourable Member for Emerson mentions No. 29 highway that he would like to see extended for several miles. All I can suggest to him is, keep on bringing it up, keep on re minding us. I'm sure that this is needless advice, that we will be hearing from him from time to time. There are no further plans for No, 29 highway at the moment. The Honourable Member for Gladstone mentioned quite a variety of things .

One was the spot in the Annual Report which referred to 14 miles of seal coa ting , For his benefit, in the department we refer to the entire road from No. 4 Highway North as the Plumas-Waldersee Road, The part that was seal coated was the 14 miles immediately north of No . 4 Highway, between there and Plumas , but in the department it•s referred to as the Plumas-Waldersee Road, He mentioned the construction on the Ca rberry-Neepawa Road, and the reasons for taking over, The primary reason for taking over at the time it was taken over, was the in creased traffic that was generated by the location of the potato plant at Ca rberry and the diffi culty that was being experienced by the municipalities in that particular area, He questioned No. 28 Highway and I think that it would be grea t to say that it would be our intention to even tually complete No. 28 Highway from Neepawa south to Cartwright .

With regard to secondary highways and hundred percent roads, it's a very difficult thing to put a fine line as to where they qualify because one of the important reas ons as he mentione d, and I'm sure realizes, is the percentage of foreign traffic that is going over the road.

On some occasions the re can be a lot of traffic, but it's municipal traffic and it 's felt that the responsi bility should lay with the municipal authority, He mentioned the difference between secondary and main market roads, and strange as it may seem, it is not always -- it's not always the most economica l means for the municipality to have shared work done by having the roads upgraded to a secondary highway, While the snar ing is 75-25 as compared to 40-60, the secondary highway standard calls for a higher standard, is maintain ed by the province of Manitob a, or by arrangement with the municipality, and the muni cipality is billed for 25 percent of the work, There is more work done and their 25 per cent in many instances comes to more money than the 40 percent of the lesser standard road did. originally, so in all cases many municipalities find it's not in their interest to go to a sec ondary highway standard.

Then the Honourable Member from Rhineland mentioned 4 (d), Aids to Municipalities, This is the appropriation from which the regular and special grants are distributed to the mun icipalities. The $10, 500 grant and the special grant for school division bus routes, etcetera, are all taken out of this appropriation. MR. CAMPBE LL: Mr. Chairman, I think the Honourable the Minister omitted to men tion the east perimeter highway. MR. WEIR: Mr . Cha irman, I'm sorry, I had it marked down too .

I mentioned in the House the other day, as a result of the question from the Honourable Member from Radisson, that it would appear that construction of this

section of the road, the eco nomics would dictate that it be constructed in conjunction with the floodway and that the earth being removed for its floorbank could be used for the highway, Your question with regard to ; does it parallel the floodway all the way to 4? I re ally can•t say, I can• t recall. It 's possible I can get the infor mation for you. I •m not aware of it, It parallels it on the inside for at least some consider able distance. Whether it•s all the way I•m not sure. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to thank my honourable friend for the questions to my answers or vice versa but there was one answer that he failed to give me, and I asked him in particular about any proposed highway from PTH No. 19 within the Park to the new Agassiz Ski Development, Now, I know -- I• ve said this before that it could be considered strictly a federal project, but does my honourable friend know of any project that has been dis cussed between this province and the Federal Govermnent for a highway of any kind, from PTH No. 19 to the proposed -- well it 's not proposed; it •s in the process of being developed now, the Agassiz Ski Development there, because I know that the people in Neepawa, who are finan cially involved in this Agassiz Ski Development, intend that it should be a summer resort area as well as a winter resort area, MR.

WEIR: Mr. Chairman, I know of no such road, MR , MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman,. I just wonder if I can get some clarifi�ation from the April 18th; 1963 Page 1347

(Mr. Molgat, cont• d. ) •. • •• Minister on some of the items here in his estimate, page 4 of the green sheet. The Wekusko-Wabowden or Thompson Road. Now it1s referred to there in the sections 6G; 5G; 4G; and 2G; and these don't mean too much in relationship to the map. I wonder if the Minister could detail those in relationship to the map, so we can see how far the road will get this year, and then if he can give us the completion date for the balance? MR . WEffi: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'd be glad to try. There are not too many points of identification along that particular road, but

Section 6G is at the south end. It is the first stretch from the south end, going up from Wekusko and it's under contract. Much of the dirt is in place and must be compacted during the summer of 1963. ·

Section 5G is the next stretch, and I'm not too sure of the mileage here, Mr. Chairman. I would think probably they're -- oh, possibly 20 mile. stretches. It runs actually from the Mitishto River to the Kiski Creek, and it's under contract, but there •s little can be done with it before the fall of 1963. 4G runs from Kiski Creek to Wabowden, will be tended in the fall of 1963 • .

Section 3G that runs from Wabow den to Sasagiu Rapids, or Grass River, is completed.

Section 2G is to be tended the fall of 1963, and --

section 2G runs from the Sasagiu Rapids to -- I have no identifying point there - it's approximately halfway to Thompson -- it1ll be tended the fall of 1963.

Section lG is com pleted. Our target, if everything goes well, will be to have some traffic over the road the late fall and winter of 196 4, with probably considerable of the gravel having to be placed in 1965. MR. MOLGAT: I thank the Minister for his statement, Mr. Chairman. I want to go on to another subject now, and the Minister is familiar with it, but I just want to get exactly what is the procedure, and that's with regard to holdbacks on contractors and bonding and so on.

Now, my honourable friend is having troubles in this, but I just want to get from him, exactly what is the policy of the department regarding holdbl".cks? What is the policy regarding bond ing? And is this policy applied on all contracts ? MR . WEffi: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the policy on holdbacks and bonding is the same on all contracts. The holdback is 15 percent of all the progress payments up to the final, and what is required for the release of the holdback is a statutory declaration from the contractor, stating that all the accounts in relation to the project are paid.

There 1s a performance bond of 50 percent on all of the contracts and the difficulty that has arisen is that some of the claims that are outstanding, there is some area of disagreement as to whether or not all categories come under the bond. This is before the courts now. We •re hoping that this decision of the court will settle the cases that we have. If it doesn't there has been considerable research done by the department to see what in these various cases -- what changes might be made in the performance bond to ensure payment of these accounts.

The De partment is in a rather difficult position in these things. There are some outstanding claims where partnerships are involved and the partners get into a little family scrap between them se lves, and you can •t get a release for holdback monies; you just can1t settle the thing..

There is some thought being given as to whether the system that is in operation now should prove to be not what we think it is, that possibly two forms of bonding should be considered; one which would leave the individual who had a claim against the contractor have a bond in such a manner that the individual with the claim could sue the bonding company direct. This isn •t possible at the moment.

It•s a kind of a triangle, and it's a very hard thing to know just exactly what stage we•re at, but the answer to his question I think is, that there is a perform�ce bond of 50 percent on all contracts; there's a 15 percent holdback on all contracts. The difficulty sometimes comes in measurements of these things, and you get a dispute as to what the mea surements actually are, but under almost all, if not all conditions, the holdback has been suf ficient to pay the just claims.

Now there have been some cases where some of the claims have not all been completely justified in connection with the contract, where you'll get a claim of a machine company, for instance, who haven't been paid for the machinery. They1ll put a claim in, and maybe even a garnisheeing order, and seize the equipment, and they don•t produce the claim, and the equipment was maybe used on more than one job and there 's the matter of dis tribution. So it's rather a complex situation in all. We hope that it will be resolved in the very near future. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, I'm sure the Minister has looke� into this because I know that he•s had a number of complaints on the subject, and that quite a number .of the con tractors are in, I think, some difficulty regarding this •. During the discussion of the Attorney- Page 1348 April 18th, .1963

(Mr.

Molgat, cont•d. ) •••• General's Department I brought up some claims that had origin ally been in this department and passed on to the Attorney-General -- the DeVries case against Sveinson, for example -- and as I indicated then this has been going on for five years , Now there's another case again, and I'm sure my honourable friend is familiar with it, that•s the Keyway Construction case� Now here 's a case where I'm told that this particular contractor has had equipment repos sessed because he simply has not been able to pay his bllls and yet he has a legitimate claim, I believe, against the prime contractor in the case.

Now did the gov ernment have the same amount of holdback in that case and did it control the holdback? Why is it that this sub-c ontractor is unable to get paid? MR . WEIR: Mr.

Cha irm an, in that particular case -- and I1m not aware of any repos sessi ons on his equipment because I know I did everything that was pos sible to attempt to save his equipment, and at the last point I heard he hadn't lost equipment, but something may have transpired in the meantime that I don •t know anything about, But one of the difficulties here was a dispute in judgmenf on the figures, and there was a large area -- actually we are dis puting the amount of money that the contractor maintains that we owe, and there is consider able holdback and the bonding company are not accepting our figures and we_ are not accepting the contractor 's figures, and we have sent the matter to Court for a decision as to what the actual amounts are, and there is no reply yet.

Examination for discovery has been held and it's in process, and'it•s one of these delaying things , I don't know how we speed them up, It's unfortunate that we have some of them -- they1re more difficult ones -- but apparently in this particular area and the season of the year that it was, there was considerable shrinkage and swell; there was room for argument in the measurements that were taken by the department and by the contractor, and we1re see-sa wing as to the amount-that is actually payable, MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, I appr eciate that in this particular case, I think the Minister is right, that he and his department have done everything they could within their power to get this matter settled, but the fact still rem ains that insofar as the individual con ce::ned, it isn •t quite as long as the other case I was citing, but this one does go back to work that was done in the •••••.•• well, mainly the summer of 196 0; that.•s the majority of it; and here we are into 1963 , Well, I•m sure the Minister himself -- in fact his actions, I think, have shown this, that he1s sympathetic to the -case.

But what is a contractor to do? How is he to opera te if he has no more assura nce of getting his payment than what apparen tly has been thA case? I wonder if the Minister in this particular case could tell us wheri this came out of his own department and into the hands, I presume, of the Attorney- Gener al's department, if tha:t is the proc ess . And also what was the amount of holdback on the prime contractor in this case? MR . WEIR: Mr. Chairman, I donrt think that I1m re ally at liberty to do that with the thing before the court . I don rt know the legal

interpretation here but I 'm afraid I 1m treading on pretty thin Ice. HON. STERLING R. LYON: Q. C. (Attorne y-General and Minister of Public Utilities) (Fort Garry): •· •••.•••. I could help, I'm not sure of the exact status of the case myself, Mr. _Chairman, to further enlighten the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, but I do under stand that the case is at issue.

In other words, that a statement of claim was issued and that a statement of defence has teen filed; examinations for discovery, accord ing to hearsay in form ation that I have, have been held, thereby placing it, I would suggest, in the sub judice category, It's, of course, quite proper to talk in a general _sense about this general type of case, but to get into the particulars of this case might pre judice either one side or the other and I1m sure my honourable -friend would appreciate that. MR. MOLGAT: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I appreciate that this may be before the courts but .surely there 1s nothing impro per in getting the dates of the sequence of events, is there? MR . LYON: •••.•.••• I don•t rec all whether that's an issue or not. It may be an issue. MR. MOLGAT: Well, but, it may be of issue, that is, what happened in the contract it self, but sure ly it•s not an issue the stage at which this moved from the Department of Public Works into the Attorney-Gene ral's Departm ent. Surely this is inform ation that we can obtain, is it not?

Because presum ably, and I know in the case of the DeVries case where I have a great deal of correspo ndence on the subject, I was advised specifically that on such a date the case was no longer in the hands of Public Works and then in the hands of the Department of the Attorn ey-General. Now my question in this one is : when did this step tl:\ke place? April 18th, 1963 Page 1349

MR. WEffi: Mr. Chairm an, I don't have this information with me. My best judgment would be something just less than a year ago last summer some time, or sprilig, There had been negotiations; there was bankruptcy iii the case; it was quite an ilivolved situation.

I would think iii the neighbourhood of a year ago, The solicitor that was handling it iii the Attor ney-General's Department left the employ of the department, and rather than start a new soli citor iii all over again we retained the solicitor who had left the employ of the government to carry it out, There was some difficulty iii -- I think the solicitors for the bondilig company have changed twice -- once or twice anyway -- iii the process, and it's been just an awful job · to try and get everything together. MR.

MOLGAT� I appreciate the Minister may not have the information on hand, I won der if he could get me the specific dates and give me the information later on, on this, I take it from the Minister•s statement that the department is concerned about this situa tion and they appreciate the importance of it to contractors.

I take it further from his state ment that after these court_ cases then they will consider changing their bonding techniques and their requirements, I would strongly recommend that this be established once and for all, be cause the way it seems to be now is that as soon as a dispute rises, the bonding company seems to scurry away somewhere and nothing can be settled, and as a result these things drag on and on.

Now this, I think, will have a detrimental effect on ·the contracting trade in the provilice, and as a result, on the work that will be done in this department, So I hope that next year when we meet here that these matters will be settled and that the department will have established a clear-'cut -- as much as these things can be -- procedure, and that the contractors will know exactly where they stand and that these long cla ims going over periods of four and five years will no longer be appearing before us. MR. LYON: •••••. ••• point there, Mr. Chairman.

I think I explained to my honourable friend during the Att orney-General•s estimates that in the bulk of these cases the Crown is not privy to any of the claims that are beilig made at all, and if there is any rectification to be made, it is a rectification to be made in so�e source outside of a Crown agency. If people go bankrupt, I don•t think that the Department of Public Works can be blamed for that. If people do not pay their accounts the Department of Public Works cannot be blamed for that.

So I wouldn•t, from a legal standpoint, want to hold out too much to my honourable friend, even though the Depart ment of Public Works may make some changes, or consider some changes, in their bonding techniques as a result of advice or ilistruction that they may get from Court decisions, I think he should remember, as well, that considering the large number of contracts that thi s depart ment enters into, with these bonding arrangements the significant fact is that so very few of them have resulted iii situations such as he has spoken of tonight, and those situations again, I underlilie, arise, not through any error or malfunction on the part of the department, but rather because of financial difficulties that are encounte:red by the contractor or sub-contractor.

MR. MOLGAT: That is, provided, Mr. Chairman, that the department follows the hold back procedures exactly as they should, In this regard I would wonder if the Minister in addi tion to giving me the dates when this was transferred to the department, whether he would also give me the hold-back amounts on this particular contract, because this, I think, is very much part of the case, • • • • • • • • • • continued on next page Page 1350 April 18th, 1963

MR . CHAIRMAN: • • . passed. Item 5 -p assed. MR . JOHNSTON: Mr . Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Earlier on in the day we were told fairly clearly that a member should have no hesitation about speaking up for people in his constituency and what I have to say now is of a very minor nature in the over-all plan of things for· Manitoba. · However, the people who are involved feel quite strongly about it and they feel that it is detrimental to their interests in the situation I'm going to describe.

Now, in the highway systems of Manitoba, I believe that from the Ontario side to the Saskatchewan side on Trans-Canada there are no other fences or gates or obstructions of any nature other than the one I am going to describe, and the people who have businesses behind this fence feel quite strongly that they are being discriminated against and they have specifically, that is, two out of the three people affected, have asked me to raise this point and see if there cannot be a sat isfactory solution. I'm referring now to a fence in what is known as the Little Portage area about one mile east of Portage la Prairie.

These people tell me, and I believe from observa tion, that this is the only fence on the Trans-Canada Highway in Manitoba and, while there are openings in this fence, they feel that they are being deprived somewhat of an amount of business off the highway that their business depends upon. I have here the financial statements of one of these businesses and he feels quite strongly that in the past four years one of the reasons for a downhill drag, so as to speak, in his business is due to this obstruction.

Now I know the de partment and this Honourable Minister are conversant with this particular stretch of highway and fe.nce, and it has been said in the past that it .has been placed there for safety reasons and quite possibly he has a point on this. However, it is the only such obstruction on the highway as far as I've been able to gather, that is, access on or off the highway, and could not this par ticular problem be cleared up by proper marking instead of a barricade? Could it not be re solved to the satisfaction of the people who are behind these barricades ?

I would ask the Hon ourable Minister's consideration on this. At the same time I'm speaking I would like to draw his attention to the divided highway that approaches Portage la Prairie from the East on No. 1 and, as the Honourable Minister well knows, it's a single track each way and there has been representations from the Portage Council that they thought this particular stretch of highway where it divides and comes across a railroad track at that particular point is not satisfactory. I be lieve they have written once, if not twice, in the form of a resolution asking for this bottleneck area to be corrected.

I am wondering if the Honourable Minister has both of these problems under consideration and if he can give an answer at this time. MR. WEIR: Mr. Chairman, I think in regard to that I might say that one of those prob lems is under consideration, that of the two-laned area there. Certainly there could be more desirable situations looked after when we get so that we can improve that particular situation.

With regard to the guard-rail, which I prefer to call it, in front of the business places at Portage la Prairie, I know of no other identical situation with the business places that close to the highway on No. 1 highway, where traffic is inclined to go, where the ditches are closed in this particular area, and the reason the guard-rail is there is for safety reasons. There have been accidents in that area.

The department went to great pains to light the area so that it was possible to see the approaches, and the neon lights that are available on those particular approaches and the signing that has been done for these businesses, I quite frankly can see no reason why someone wanting to eat, sleep or fill with gas, couldn't stop or wouldn't stop at any of those points. MR . JOHNSTON: Mr . Chairman, is the Honourable Minister suggesting that if these particular businesses rearrange their lights in such way that it would not lead to confusion there that the fence would be taken down? MR .

WEIR: I made no such suggestion. MR. JOHNSTON: I'm asking, I wasn't suggesting that you'd made the suggestion. I'm asking if you would consider this request. MR. WEIR: The answer is "no". MR. GUTTORMSON: I'm a little disappointed when I look at the estimates to see that Item (

e) is a reduction of $75, 000. 00. Those of us who have a lot of unorganized territories in our constituencies will find that there111 be a reduction in the amount of work, I'm afraid, as a result of this reduction in the over-all amount. Could the Minister indicate yvhy there's such a Aprll 18th, 1963 Page 1351

(Mr. Guttormson, cont1d.) ••• sharp reduction in the amount of money to be spent on market roads this year? MR. WEIR: I'm having trouble, Mr. Chairman, finding a set of estimates. That was Item what? MR. GUTTORMSON: Yes, Item (e). MR. WEIR: Well the answer-to this is that with the amount of work that has been going on, there has been some of these roads, ·minor number, that are in other jurisdictions being paid for from some other appropriation. But the real answer is, this is the number of projects that are coming in from the' districts that we are anticipating doing this year. MR.

GUTTORMSON: I'm sorry, what is it -"' you say that there are fewer projects - is that what I understood you to say? MR. WEIR: In some areas there will be some less projects than there have been in the past. There is some areas that will not be receiving quite as much work as they had before. MR. GUTTORMSON: Well, if he's having trouble fin�ng any places to put the money, le an help him out very easily. MR.

MOLGAT: In view of the proposed Nelson River development, I wonder if the Min ister could indicate whether plans are being made now for the extension of the highway from Grand Rapids nort h or from his present Wabowden-Thompson into the Nelson project. MR. WEIR: Mr. Chairman, no definite plans have been made with regard to the road yet, but there has been a winter road cleared from Grand Rapids nort h to Playgreen Lake which will provide a winter road for Norway House.

This has been cpmpleted and it also will provide a means of access for us on surveying and so on and so forth when we get to this point for the extension north. ' MR. MOLGAT: ..••. roughly the same road, Mr. Chairman. Are there any plans to connect the present Gypsumville-Grand Rapids back to No. 10 highway, that is across the top end of Lake Winnipegosis? MR. WEIR: Mr. Chairman, none for the immediate future. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, last year we urged from this side of the House, to obtain the policy on market roads. Has the Minister considered any change in this policy?

I believe the present_ policy is 60-40, and in the unorganized it's 50-50. Has the Minister con sidered possibly changing this in favour of the municipalities in the unorganized? _ MR. WEIR: Mr. Chairman, part of that statement is correct, part of it is wrong. On the main market roads in the unorganized it's a 100 percent in the Province of Manitoba. It's the school district roads that are 50 percent. There is no thought of changing the policy at the present time. Depending on what happens with the report of the Michener Commission there might be some possibilitY. MR.

GUTTORMSON: Yes, the Minister is quite right. I meant school roads, not main market roads. MR. CHAIRMAN: •••• passed. Item 5 passed. Department xn , 1 -- Administration. HON. ROBERT SMELLIE (Minister of Municipal Affairs)(Birtle-Russell): Mr. Chair man, when the First Minister approached me on the day before this session opened to undertake this portfolio I felt rather like the coloured gentleman who had just been convicted of ten counts of arsen and sentenced to 99 years on each count.

When he asked the judge, "Judge this going - to be mighty hard for me" and I got much the same answer as the coloured gentleman did when - the judge said, "Well Rastus you just do the best you can. " Last September a copy of the statistical information for municipalities in Manitoba for the fiscal year January 1st to December 31st, 1961 was mailed to each municipality and to each member of the Legislature. I hope that the honourable members had some opportunity to consider this information. I would draw your attention to one or two points in that information.

For the first time this information included statistical information with respect to the Metro politan Corporation of Greater Winnipeg, and an analysis of investments also for the first time. There is some changes in the statistics. The Rural Municipalities of Assiniboia, Charleswood and North Kildonan were transferred from the rural

section to the suburban sec tion. The Town of Tuxedo was transferred from town classification to _suburban. The City of West Kildonan was transferred from suburban to the city section; Brooklands was transferred from the village to the town section; and Transciona was transferred from the town

section to Page 1352 April 18th, 1963

(Mr. Smellie, cont' d. ) • • • the city section. The comparat ive sum marized statistics was included with the statistical report and these two documents are complimentary; the former is a source of inform ation respect ing trends in municipal finance in Manitoba, while the latter is a source of information respec ting particular municipalities. The total taxable assessment of the municipalities in the province has continued to in crease, and for the fiscal year 1961 was $70, 473 , 500 greater than the year 1960 . This repre sents .an increase in taxable assess ment of 6.1 percent over the previous year .

The total taxes imposed in 1961 were $9, 398, 140 greater than in the year 1960, an increase in total tax imposi tion of some 14. 2 percent. Tax collections in 196 1 were 98 . 97 percent of the total taxes im posed. All classes of municipalities showed a decline over the percentage tax collections com pared to 1960. This decline has been in the collection of tax arrears and in the sale of lands for taxes. In 1961, 86 .0 6 percent of the current levies were collected as opposed to 85 .8 per cent in 1960.

At the same time 11.4 7 percent of the collections in 1961 were from arrears of taxes as opposed to 12. 9 in 1960. Title sales and agreeme nts accounted for 1. 17 percent of collections in 1961, compared to 2. 51 in 1960. Tax collections to the end of December, 1962 appeared to be more favourable than in 1961, but we haven't got the final figures as yet. Col lections improved in 1962 in all classes except suburbans , where the percentage of collection is lower by some 2.4 3 percent. Tax arrears increased in 1961 by $1, 446,4 00. 00.

The figures shown in the printed statisticals are not directly' comparable because of the transfer of munici palities from one classification to another. A comparison of the increase in arrears in the various units as they are listed 1961, shows that arrears increased in all classes of municipali ties -- rural, $166, 884; suburbans, $146, 689; villages, $61, 800; towns , $204, 976; in cities, $886, 103. 00. Despite this there were 22 more municipalities operating on a cash basis in 1961 than there were . in 1960.

In. addition 127 municipalities, or an increase of 11, completed their year's operation with a cash surplus . During the past 10 years this is the greatest number of municipalities in a cash surplus position since 1952 when there were 128. Municipal investments as at Dece mber 31st, 1961 amounted to some $25-1/2 million .. This represents an increase of some $2 .6 million over 1960. The assessment program con tinued in 1962. Assessm ent revisions were carried out in 151 municipalities and complete re assess ments were carried out in 10 other municipalities in time for the 1963 roll.

The field assessm ent staff that was formerly in charge of local government district assessments has been transferred to the Provincial-Municipal Assessme nt Branch and henceforth all assess ments in the local government districts will be handled by the Provincial-Municipal Assessor. Provi sion is being made for the es tablishment of district assess ment offices at Dauphin, Minnedosa, Morden and Souris.

It is expected that this decentralization of staff will bring the staff in clos er proximity to the municipalities they serve and that such will ease the burden on the assessors and assist them in maintaining and revising the assess ments of the various municipalities under the jurisdiction of the provincial municipal assessor. It is hoped that it will also enable more frequent, orderly and complete physical reassessm ent of the various municipalities.

Electroni cally produced assess ment rolls and tax rolls are now being provided annually to all of the muni cipalities under the jurisdiction of the provincial municipal assessor and to all local government districts, except Mystery Lake and Snow Lake. This program will be extended to those two lo cal government districts as soon ·as the physical reassessme nts are completed. Mr. Chairman, I would like to pay compliment to the wonderful staff in this department.

The co-operation that I have received from them to date has been everything I could ask for and I look forward to the next months and years in this portfolio; it promises to be very interes ting with the developments in this most important field of activity which are presently taking place. Now I would invite questions of the honourable members and no doubt they will have cer tain advice that they will feel constrained to give me ·and we'll be pleased to hear it at this time. MR.

CHAmMAN: If we're going to make remarks or ask question� concerning any specific item as ou tlined under 2, 3, 4 that we reserve our re marks till then, on any specific item there. The Member for Portage. MR. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I feel somewhat like the Honourable Min ister of Municipal Affairs does, that I, too, am relatively new to this and in replying to his re marks I have nothing of a contentious nature to say. I might have one or two .suggestions that April 18th, 1963 Page 1353

(Mr. Johnston, cont1d. ) ••• ar� not deeply thought out, but if there is any merit in the·m, I offer them in this vein. Now, one of the problems that are facing municipalities in general, and I'm speaking only from my own experience, in particular in Portage la Prairie, that the tax rate on real property which is after all the main source of revenue to a city or town or municipality has about reached the saturation point and there is deep concern amongst the muni cipal people on the number of homes that are defaulting on their taxes.

It is reaching alarming proportions where there is -we ll there is great concern amongst municipal people, that it's either a case of. pushing people out of these homes in some c.ases or trying to. make some sort of an arrangement for them and carry them on the books and carry them further and further, and in the future we are going to be faced with trying to answer this problem, where in the provincial fields we all know there can be hidden taxes added on here and there, there can be certain measures taken that will raise funds for the treasury, but in the municipal field the majo:;:o tax comes in the form of a business tax or a real property tax on the home owner and it all falls due at the end of the year when someone with a very modest income between $200 and $300 a month, but they do happen to have scraped up the money to buy a home or buy an equity in a home and they find at the end of the year they're faced with a tax bill of anywheres in the neighbourhood of either under or below $30 0. 00.

Now this has cause9. much resentment to people, possibly they don't understand that most municipalities have a high uncontrollable rate· that the mayors and councillors and so on are faced with raising this money and they pinch pen nies and scrape away and cut down services that are desperately needed in their other areas - and I'm speaking again from our own experience of Portage la Prairie, where possibly I believe 70 percent of the tax bill is uncontrollable to the municipal people and the only possible place they can cut down or save is in the other 30 percent, where out of this money they have to sup ply necessary services that people have come to expect.

Now as I say, I'm much in the same position as the Honourable the Minister, that I certainly do not know all the answers, and I'm bringing this problem forward with the hope that it will be looked at in the future.

Now, the Honourable Minister made a statement to the effect �hat there are more muni cipalities getting on to a cash basis , and I say that these people certainly deserve a salute for their work if they're able to do this, but on.the other hand there are other areas, other small towns or cities or whathave you, where they are faced with the problem of raising debentures to carry on expansion programs,. ari.d in some cases �- now I must state thifi quite clearly _::_ that in some cases, people who are elected to these offices and face these problems have not had prior experience or sufficient background in this work, that I believe one suggestion that I would like to put forward now is some form of training program or seminars, things of that nature, where some of these people who have these huge responsibilities thrust upon them, are given some. guidance and some grounditJ.g in the.work that.lies ahea9. of theil}.

No\V, I say again, from my own experience that in the City of Portage la Prairie we have had fine co-operation from the municipal board and we have had much guidance, but I do honestly believe that if we'd had some help some years back it would have been of greater benefit and the fruits of it would have been more evident to day. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I haven't too much on this, nevertheless I'd like to bring in a few recommendations to the Honourable Minister. I think first of all that it might be a good idea if this department should give some leadership in this question of Metro .

I think that we've had this Metro situation for a few years now, there is a comm.ission studying this, I know, but I think that it's time that the people of Manitoba get some directive and some leader ship from this government. It is about time, we've had two or. three years now of bickering be tween the municipal men and metro and I think that this should stop immediately.

If we're go ing to get anywhere, if the people of Manitoba will be well served, this has to stop and has to stop between the different municipalities, especially between the City of Winnipeg and the Met ro officials, because this is not conductive to good management to the proper way the city should be run.

I think that Metro will have to receive some backing or if the government has no confidence in Metro, well then they should do something about it, this can't keep on like this, the way its been going of -- the government will close their eyes whenever anything happens, I think it has to -- it can't stay on the fence any longer. It is something that was created by not only the government, but the members of this House, and it's time that they either get some backing one way or another. I know that Metro ·has been accused of many things, many things Page 1354 April 18th, 1963

(Mr. Johnston, cont'd. ) • • • they deserve no doubt, but there's a limit to what you can accuse this group without -- this group has been accused of practically anything that happens, even I think for some certain Acts of God practically. I think when we're talking about Metro, the government should gi ve some indication as to what help Metro and the people in the Metro area will receive from the government. The government has been accused of lacking in this even by some certain members of the government.

There again, those people will not be able to do a job if they don't know how they will get revenue and how much help they will get from the govern ment, I think that this is very important, if we're going to get anywhere we need some leader ship in this respect from the government. There is something else that I would hope that the Honourable Minister will have some thing to say on this report of the Municipal Inquiry Commissi on in Manitoba. We received this report not too long ago and I wonder what the government expects to do with this.

There's the question of a certain town in Manitoba here that's had it pretty tough in the last few years and I refer to Churchill. I certainly hope that the Minis ter will have some re port on this too. I've had a chance to visit Churchill on a number of occasions and I know that these people are being very hard pressed. The freezing of certain prov:incially-owned lots out there has caused a hardship .

I know that at the time the government had not decided what would be done if the townsite would be changed or not, but nevertheless these people were very, very discouraged and it's pathetic to see the people of that area, not knowing, not having any ambi tion, they seemed to have lost all ambition, and· it was pathetic to watch these people. I hope that this is being remedied; I understand that certain steps were taken and I hope that the Min ister will be able to elaborate on this also.

Now before I sit down there is only one more point and this has come back time and time again -- I see that I've pleased somebody by saying that I'll sit down pretty soon. But, this point nevertheless is an important point and I hope that this is the right minister that I bring this to. It's the qLtestion of fires that we have in the greater Winnipeg area.

I think that it would be advisable to have some kind of a law - I don't know if in municipal law or where it should go, but something has to be done to stop this business of letting a fire -- either a house, a residence or a business burn while two municipalities are tossing a coin to see who is re sponsible. That has happened over the years .

It happened again in early December of this year that the flames caused about $200 ,0 00 damage around Fort Whyte while the City of Winni peg and the Municipality of Fort Garry were tossing a coin to see who should be responsible and apparently nobody should be responsible. I can't say that I've got

an Act ready now, but I think the government would be well advised to work on this to decide to have some law that would make it mandatory to stop the fire first of all and then to fight it out after. I think it would be a lot cheaper like this; it would make a lot more sense; it would _save property and we might also save lives. MR. GROVES: Mr. Chairman, I'm probably going to incur the wrath again of the Hon ourable Member from St. Boniface, because I want to say a few words under this department on the subject of Metro.

I can assure him however, that I have no intention of speaking for a half an hour, and also that on this matter on which I'm going to speak now, as was the case on the matter that I SJ)Oke about this afternoon, very strenuous representations have been made to metro by officials and by the citizens of St. Vital. We nave set up, or the Provincial Government has set up a review commi ssion, and they should be congratulated, I think, for their actions in setting this up.

We passed at the last session of the Legislature the necessary legislation and a few months ago the personnel of this commi ssion were announced and they are already working. Metro under the original Act had a four-year term. This term by the legislation that was passed was cut approximately in half. This of course was a very serious step that this Legis lature had to take because we all realize that the bickering, about which the Honourable Member from St. Boniface spoke some time ago, was getting rather serious and was. tending to get out of hand.

However, the make-up of this com mission and the contents of the brief that have been submitted to them to date, indicates that there could be in the recommendations of this commi ssion, some pretty drastic recommen dations insofar as our present metro setup is concerned, and I think that the Metro Council as it's constituted at the moment should recognize this. I realize that we can't expect them to stop their work but nonetheless I don't think that they should proceed, partic�larly with long April 18th, 1963 Page 1355

(Mr. Groves, cont1d. ) • range high cost projects until such time as this com mission has re ported and we, and they, are in a position to know what our eventual metro setup is going to be.

I think that if metro council does proceed with any long range liigh cost projects and thereby commit the taxpayers of Greater Winnipeg to debt and charges in this connection, that it's wrong, because the present members of the metro council may not be members of a metr.o council de pending on the recommendations that are made by the Review Commis sion, or the members of this council may well be a minority group on a council that may be proposed by the Review Com mission.

So I repeat that I think that it's basically wrong for the present metro council to go ahead with any long range high cost projects until such time as it is definitely established what form metro is going to take in the future. One of the projects which very definitely affects the people of the City of St. Vital is metro's proposed intention to put a sewage lagoon in the City of St. Vital. Metro proposes to put this lagoon in the City of St. Vital, although recent newspaper reports indicate that they have delayed the implementation of this for some two years.

But Metro can unless they speci fically ask the province for financial aid in establishing this project, can go ahead with it with out the. approval of the council or the people of St. Vital, and there is no doubt in my mind that when metro makes up its mind that they are going to go ahead with this project that they will and they will not consult the council of the City of St. Vital. I want to place on record now the fact that if metro does intend to put a sewage lagoon in the midst of the City of St.

Vital that they're going to have a real fight; they're going to have to fight with me; they're going to have to fight -- (Interjection) -- they're going to have to fight with every single member of the munici pal council, including the mayor and they're going to have to fight with 100 percent of the city's residents. It will be quite a fight I can assure you, because we are all against any work, whether it be a sewage lagoon or any other work that's going to endanger the health or lessen the desirability of living in this area.

I would suggest that perhaps metro might consider going back to their original choice of a site for this sewage disposal work in the constituency of the Honourable the Attorney-General -- oh he1s not in his seat. Both Mr. Bonnycastle and Mr. Bole live in Fort Garry; the original choice of a site for a sewage disposal work was in that municipality.

They even bought, I believe, property for that purpose, and I would suggest that if they're so anxious to have a sewage disposal plant or particularly a sewage lagoon in the south end of Greater Winnipeg that they should take on the job of trying to sell iUo the people of Fort Garry. -- (Interjection) -- Yes, if they want one they can have it cheap. I think that when Metro is considering projects like this that the one thing that they must take into consideration-- and perhaps this is most important of all, and that is public accep tance -- and the public in St.

Vital and their elected representative do not accept any decision of Metro to put a sewage lagoon in the middle of their city. This proposed lagoon is in an area where expansion of Greater Winnipeg may eventually go and I would suggest that in a few years time we might find that this sewage lagoon is surrounded by potential urban growth. So I want, Mr. Chairman, to put on record on behalf of the residents of St. Vital, on behalf of the council of St. Vital, and on my own behalf, my strenuous objection to Metro proceeding with this pro ject in our city. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, I wouldn't want to let the Minister's salary go by on this occasion without saying a few words to the Minister. I think it's the first of the estimates of the new Ministers that we have had a chance to discuss in this House and I want to wish the Minister well in his work. I know that with his past record, particularly his association with a fine regiment like the Little Black Devils, that he will be a strong fighter in the traditions of our regiment along with the Minister of Industry and Commerce. I wonder if the Minister could in his subsequent statements, Mr.

Chairman, enlarge upon his views on the Fisher report. Whether he could tell us what the government intends to do with the Fisher report at this time in view of the royal commission that has been established and what is to be the likely course of that report on which the municipalities have worked now for some I think, three years.

I'd ap preciate as well if he would express his views on state ments that were made by his predecessor last fall and possibly what action the department in tends to take on these,· because his predecessor is quoted in the newspapers as saying at the time of the municipal convention last November, that some council members are taking uncon stitutional liberties which violate the Municipal ·Act and he has quite a few statements made in Page 1356 April 18th, 1963

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd. ) . • • that regard, that a number of the municipalities in the province apparently were not following the law and that the councillors were taking action that was not justified and was not in particular recorded, were acting without justification or without the rights of council. I wonder if the Minister could indicate to us whether this is a serious prob lem and exactly what the department intends to do about it. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, I'd first like to wish the.Minister success in this department and assure him that my knowledge of his staff, his deputies and other members who are working under him, would justify my saying that he will have strong support from trained competent people. I, too, am looking forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about the Murray Fisher report -- 1 forget its formal name -- but we know what it is , and to see what steps will be taken by the department to properly assess, review the report and to give us the benefit of the thinking of the Department of Municipal Affairs.

My main reason in rising is that I'm sure that the Honourable Member from St. Vital would like to have certain of his remarks corrected in that he would not like, I am certain, to give art impression of facts which do not exist. The reason that prompted me particularly was his statement that the thoughts in Metro are to plant the lagoon in the "m iddle of the City of St. Vital".

I think those are the words he used, and unless Metro has changed its thinking since last November, I can tell him that the land that was being looked at as the likeliest place for a lagoon system -- if there were to be a lagoon system -- is outside of the perimeter and I think outside of the area of the Metropolitan Corporation of Greater Winnipeg. I hope that St. Vital grows and grows in all directions but I would assume that it would take quite awhile before St. Vital or Transcona or any other part of the country in that direction would get anywhere near the planned portion of the lagoon area.

I can also inform the Honourable Member from St. Vital that before these lagoons would be proceeded with, there would be a great deal of investigation such as we discussed here some weeks ago and which I do not want to repeat, but there would also be some practical experience from the Charleswood lagoon system.

It also seems to me that if you want to worry about health hazard, which I don't think ever was really a problem with a lagoon system, then the dumping of raw sewage into the river surely is not one which is healthful for the residents who live on either of the river banks, and therefore I think it would be a much more positive ap proach to the problem of lagoons for the honourable member to assure himself firstly that I'm right in saying that these lagoons could not be proceeded with without the approval of the Pro vincial Department, I think, of Health, nor without the approval of the Federal Government, which I think will have to make substantial contributions to it.

I might also suggest that a positive contribution could well be made without bringing in the names of two of the people associated with council and suggesting that because they live in one or another area of the metropolitan council, rather of Metropolitan Winnipeg, that they are interested in send ing lagoons further away than could be near to the place where they live. I don't think that is a fair suggestion. I can't believe that the Honourable Member from St. Vital really wanted to make any inference against the people involved. I doubt if he would want to cast reflection on their motives in this respect. MR.

GROVES: I want to assure the honourable member that there isn't too much in what he said that I disagree with. I hope that he's correct when he ,says that metro council will not proceed with the construction of a sewage lagoon in St. Vital without a great deal more in vestigation. And if I did say "plant a sewage lagoon .in the middle of St. Vital", and I think I did, then I would withdraw that remark because I know where the proposed location is. How ever, there is a strong feeling amongst the people that live in the southend of St. Vital that it will not be too many years before St.

Vital has at least expanded out to the perimeter road, and even if it expanded that far, there is a feeling amongst the people -- and I share that feel ing - that having a sewage lagoon that close to what could well be a first-class residential area, would not be desirable. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to say a word or two on the Minister's salary. First of all may I join those who have wished the Minister the best in his new occupation.

I don't think I need to say to him that he has one of the toughest jobs of any minister of any govern ment department and that while his over-all expenditure in his department may only amount to $430, 000, the responsibility is far greater than any comparison with the figu�es concerned. April 18th, 1963 Page 1357

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd. ) I want to say to both the Honourable Members from St. Vital and St. John's, I appre ciate the remarks of the Member for St. Vital insofar as the southern part of St. Vital is con- · cerned, and I want to warn my colleague that if he suggests the proposed sewage lagoon should be in the south part of St. Vital, .he's not only going to have the Member for St. Vital on his hide, he's going to have the Member for Radiss.on as well. . MR. CHERNIACK: I can handle you. MR; PAULLEY: Well, I'm very pleased to .hear from my .colleague from St.

John's that he can handle me, but I wonder -- he might find out in due course on a subject of this nature, Mr. Chairman, that his Leader is a little bit harder to handle than he es timates at the present time. However, I do. wish to the Minister of Municipal Affairs every success in the short period of time that he will be the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I say short period of time, Mr.

Chairman, advisedly, because in view of what has happened over this last couple of years, we never know how long a government will choose to remain in office, or how long it will be in office as the result of the dictates of the electorate. Reference has been made to the Murray Fisher .Report and while I appreciate the fact that there are a couple of other commissions also sitting, dealing with the matters pertaining to our Municipal and School Board Corporations, I would suggest to the Minister, however, that there is much food for thought contained in the Murray Fisher Report.

I want to make re ference to Page 40 of the report, wherein the commission report, or suggest, that separate acts should be enacted for cities, towns and villages, regional or intermunicipal units and rural municipalities. This matter, particularly, Mr. Chairman, the matter of

an act fo:r:-cities, separate act for cities, has been before the House, I think, . for many years now and nothing has been done, insofar as we're aware in the House. It may be that the Municipal Advisory Board and the Ministers . of Municipal Affairs have been considering this matter, Mr. Chair·man, but as far as we're concerned in the House we have had .. no reports at all. Possibly the Minis ter might be in a position to indicate what is being done in respect of a uniform act for the cities . The ques tion of Dece mber 14th is a question that has been raised in this House on one or two ocqasions •. Mr, .Chairman, a�

d) think that Jt.would be prpper for me .iust to.refel:' to one or two incidents in that election, .because of the fact that the Murray Fisher Report sub stantiates the policies to a considerable degree that we of the·New De mocratic Party advocated in the recent election insofar as municipal governments were concerned -- namely, the ques tion of easing the burden on taxation for schools, health and welfare from the municipal tax payer. I was quite happy, quite frank ly, when I first read the Commission Report to see that they substantiated in part, at !east, our c.ontention ..

I'm also cognizant ()f the fact, Mr, Chair- . man, that recently the representatives of the Union of Manitoba MUnicipalities and the Urban Municipal Asso ciations have met to consider the report and in their wisdom have decided that at the present time it would not be proper for all of the recommendations of the Fisher Report to be ado pted, particularly insofar as easing the burden of the municipal taxpayers and they suggest that it should be a fixed mill rate above which all costs would be absorbed by the Pro vincial Government. I had an opportunity, or at least a challenge some weeks ago, Mr.

Chairman, from the Honourable the First Minister -- I think it was as a result of the statement that I made while we were discussing the motion of confidence in the government. The First Minister told me that he would prove to me that a statement that he made at Swan River, that the proposals that were made by my Party in the general election respecting taxation on municipal taxpayers if our plan was adopted would amount to a hundred million additional dollars of taxation in the Pro vince of Manitoba.

I challenged the Honourable First Minister on this and he told me that he would be able to prove, I think in his words, to my satisfaction, that he was correct in stating that this would be a hundred million additional dollars tax burden on the taxpayers of Manitoba. I tried without avail apparently to convince the people of Manitoba that this would not be addi tional taxes but rather a transfer of the burden of taxation from the local level to other levels including that of increased income tax.

However, I don't know whether the First Minister and I should get into a debate on this particular question tonight-- (Interjection) -- You're ready? Fine! Then, Mr. Chairman, maybe we'd better get into it. Because as I read all of the reports Page 1358 April 18th,1963

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd. ) • • • of the costs on the municipal government, the whole tax imposi tion of the municipal governments for the year 1961 -- and this is the last year for which we have a report -- the whole municipal tax imposition in the Province of Manitoba, including rural municipalities, the suburbans, villages, towns and cities was $75, 725, 000. 00. We ad vocated that the present municipal share of schools amounting to $34 and 3/4 million should come off of the taxpayer, absorbed by the province.

The question of municipal welfare that was being paid for the year 1961-62, amounted to approximately $1 and 2/3 million. This amounts to a figure of around about $36 million. So I say to the Honourable the First Minister , where, Sir, did you find your figures of $100 million in respect of our proposals when the total tax imposition on the municipalities was only as I say, $75 and 3/4 million at the present time? It will be most interesting to hear from my honourable friend. Now 1 must say this, Mr.

Chairman:, lest the First Minister reminds me of it, that the people of Manitoba did not agree, at least insofar as their vote was concerned, with the pro posals of the New Democratic Party, I think only because they didn't understand our proposi tions and they may have been aided and abetted by the statement of my honourable friend the First Minister at Swan River. The Minister has told me that he is going to set me right, if right I should be set.

But I again want to come back to the Minister of Municipal Affairs insofar as his task is concerned, that notwithstanding the Murray Fisher Commission Report; notwithstanding what the Michener report may evolve; or the report of the Committee that's investigating into Metro Winnipeg, the fact of the matter is undoubtedly, and I think, positively, that the burden of taxation on the local level has reached a high, a high to the degree where many people, parti cularly our elderly citizens, and those on fixed incomes are more and more getting into the sphere where their tax imposition might eventually lead to the loss of their property as the re sult of municipal taxation.

Suggestions have been made in some quarters that the burden of taxation should be .••.. so that the people of this group that I've just spoken of do not have such a high burden as those in the greater income brackets. I want to say to the Minister that this is particularly true insofar as local improvements are taking place in many of our suburban areas.

I know many of my good friends in the City of Transcona with whom Pm more intimate than anywhere else, who are on old age pension and fixed incomes are finding it ever more burdensome the expansion of facilities within the muni cipality -- roads, paved roads, sidewalks, ornamental lighting. These are deemed to be de sirable by our local councils -- and I think possibly they are correct -- but it is unfortunate, I think, that the burden is falling on those least able to pay as well as those who are able to. I would say to the Minister, or he may say to me, "Well this is up to your local council".

I say to a .considerable degree it is up to the Provincial Government to make sure that the total levy of municipal taxes is not too great for anyone to bear. Now, I'm not going to pursue this matter or prolong my statement on the minister's sal ary, Mr. Chairman. I await with anticipation the Honourable the First Minister justifying his statements at Swan River. He has indicated that he's quite prepared to do so and possibly after I have received my education in mathematics, statistics of my honourable friend, I may have a word or two to say back to him. MR. ROBL IN: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if my honourable friend would mind if I contin ued this discussion with the Honourable Leader of the NDP party, because it's true, I did pro mise to do my best to prove or to indicate the basis of my argument that opposed his in the campaign about the cost of his program. But there is one thing that I want to establish at the beginning and that is to point out what I actually said at Swan River, because I can tell from my honourable friend's line of argument that he didn't really get the correct report lodged in his mind, let me say, as to what I said at Swan River.

So·I have taken the precaution of bringing my speech along with me and I have it in my hand and I can now report to my honourable friend what I said -- and incidentally, I checked the newspaper reports and I find -- if my recollec tion is correct -- they reported what I said with reasonable accuracy so that it may be that my honourable friend jumped to a conclusion. What I said was "We have made an estimate of the cost of implementing the program; that is, the cost to the Provincial Treasury". Now let's be clear about that.

What I am proposing to discuss is the cost of the NDP program during the recent election as it affects the Provincial Treasury. Now it goes without saying that my April 18th, 1963 Page 1359

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd.) .•• honourable friend proposed a transfer, but as far as the Provincial Treasury is concerned -- and this is important, because· he went on to say how we should raise the money -- as far as the Provincial Treasury is concerned, the amount is in the neighbour hood of $100 million. Now let me tell you how that sum is arrived at and I have in my hand here a very handsome and persuasive document, being the New Democratic Party's program for the future of Manitoba.

This one was issued in support of my good friend Don Swailes and I don't know how I got it because I'm not in his area, but anyway, here it is. And these are my calcu lations of the cost of the program. I, first of all, put down 'the cost of education, excluding de bentures by the way, being one of these items that will be transferred to the Provincial Trea sury, and on the 1961 figures that's $33, 400, 000 -- that's tax reform. "T he New DemocratiC Government will acceptfu11 responsibility for municipal health, education and welfare services .

" And what is the cost of that --$34. 4 million for education, and for social services which is health and welfare the sum in 1961 was $4, 500, 000 giving a total of $38, 900, 000 for tax reforms. Then we come on to social security, "the New Democratic Party will provide health, dental and opti cal care for all. We will also enact legislation for portable pensions , including civil servants . We will increase pensions to senior citizens to meet the rising cost of living.

" Well I have made an assumption here as to the cost of providing this. medical service and I take it to be the cost of doctor, dentist, optical and drug and the general items that are usually included in dis cussions of this sort and I conclude that the cost of that in Manitoba is about $35 million a year, that may be on the low side because the costs of drugs are very heavy -- my colleague the Min ister of Healt h says it's too low -- but anyway I put it in at $35 million. Then, of course, they're going to provide hospital care as well, without premiums, according to this promise as I inter preted it.

Health, dental and optical care that includes the hospital premium, that's $13 mil lion. Then I see that old age pensions for senior citizens are to be increased. Well now, how should we look at that? I assumed that my honourable friend would raise the pension to $75 . 00, that would seem to be a fair assess ment, and when you figure that there are 57, 000 old age security pensioners, plus 5, 000 old age assis tance pensioners, at $10. 00 a month for 12 months in the year, you get a figure in the neighbourhood of 7 -- $7 and a half million .

So - again, my honotirable fr iend, the Minister of Health says it's low, I hope that -- it's a fair figure, I trust. Anyway, for this social security plank I get a total of $5 5,4 million. Now we come to another one which looks a little expensive and that is education. It says here, "the New Demo cratic Government will provide free education at all levels as a democratic right;" There's more, but that's the main part of it. Well, I interpret that to mean university, when it says all levels, and I figul-ed out what that might be worth.

It seems to me that first of all, if it was going to be free they'd relieve all the university students of the fees they were pay�g. Well if you add all the university fees and the college fees together it comes to about $3 million. But there was another plank in the platform, I believe -- it isn't listed on this statement I admit, but I think it is nevert heless a plank in the platform -- that there would be $1, 000 provided for every student on their entry into university.

Now, I hope that was part of the platform, because I certainly took it to be part and I costed it, and on the basis of 13, 000 children going into uni versity each year, which would be the case if they all went -- and I have to admit that's an out side figure, because they wouldn't all go -- but in that case I gave myself a little leeway per haps, and if you require $39. 00 per annum at 4 percent at the time that a child is born to raise $1, 000 by the time they're 18, and when you consider that there's a new group coming in each year it means that you have to provide $507 thousand cumulatively for 18 years to get a standing position on this cost.

And if you take the average figure over the 18-year period it would am out to about 4. 6 million dollars, so I took that average figure. That gives a figure for univer sity education as about $7. 6 million for the implementation of this plank. 1 Well there's a lot of other things here. They're going to establish Churchill as a ma jor seaport; develop the Nelson River and encourage industry to build in Manitoba; they're go ing to encourage producer co-ops; establish a ministry of co-operatives; provide a compre hensive crop insurance plan and provoke marketing boards.

The Federal Government will be asked to assume 50 percent of the cost of such a program. They're going to have consumer advisory councils ; there's going to be floor prices under the fishing industry -- and we know what that means with respect to subsidies from the States; marketing boards and co-operative enterprises and a great deal more will be done for the Indian and Metis in the various projects that might be proposed for them. And I really didn't know what to put in for all that, so I Page 1360 April 18th, 1963

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd. ) .•. didn't put anything in, I just threw that in, but when I added up the figures that I got in the first instance, they came to $101, 900, 000, so I figures that if I had been a little bit, perhaps over-enthusiastic in arriving at some of those figures, that perhaps the fact that I had not put in anything for the rest of the program, which as I say is quite am bitious, that might sort of -- one would offset the other - I wouldn't be really doing any seri ous injustice to the NDP if I said about $100 million.

Now I want to be clear that I said in my speech that this was the cost to the Provincial Treasury - and it can very well be argued that even if every figure I gave is correct that $38 • 9 million which is a transfer from the municipal taxpayer to the provincial taxpayer should really be separated and looked at separately, and I admit there is that argument with respect to that.

However, my position was this, that the cost I was concerned with was the cost to the Provincial Treasury, because you were transferring or assessing these charges to a system of taxation which only the Provincial Treasurer could handle, namely, income and corporation tax. So it seemed to me that if you were going to make these adjustments, whether they were transfer payments or whether they were new sums was relatively immaterial as far as the tax structure is concerne

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-1-55
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 1st hansardpdf 55.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ccbfebaea295947b140f98a0a6d698986644dadd

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