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November 8, 2001

37th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2001-Nov-08 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Thursday 8 November 2001 Jeudi 8 novembre 2001

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

CONGENITAL HEART DEFECTS

AWARENESS DAY ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LA JOURNÉE

DE SENSIBILISATION

À LA CARDIOPATHIE CONGÉNITALE

ARCHIVES AWARENESS WEEK

ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LA SEMAINE

DE SENSIBILISATION AUX ARCHIVES

CONGENITAL HEART DEFECTS

AWARENESS DAY ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LA JOURNÉE

DE SENSIBILISATION

À LA CARDIOPATHIE CONGÉNITALE

ARCHIVES AWARENESS WEEK

ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LA SEMAINE

DE SENSIBILISATION AUX ARCHIVES

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

PAYMENTS FOR LOW-INCOME CHILDREN

VOLUNTEERS

REMEMBRANCE DAY

DIWALI

POLICE OFFICERS

REMEMBRANCE DAY

GOVERNMENT POLICY

LABOUR DISPUTE

REMEMBRANCE DAY

VISITORS

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE

ON ESTIMATES

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

INTERJURISDICTIONAL SUPPORT

ORDERS ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001

SUR LES ORDONNANCES ALIMENTAIRES

D'EXÉCUTION RÉCIPROQUE

PEOPLE'S ACCESS

TO THE FACTS ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR L'ACCÈS

DU PUBLIC AUX FAITS

OPTOMETRY AMENDMENT ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LES OPTOMÉTRISTES

VISITORS

BRAIN TUMOUR

AWARENESS MONTH ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LE MOIS

DE LA SENSIBILISATION

AUX TUMEURS CÉRÉBRALES

REMEMBRANCE DAY

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

INTERJURISDICTIONAL

SUPPORT ORDERS

ORDER OF BUSINESS

ORAL QUESTIONS

GOVERNMENT POLICY

COMMUNITY CARE ACCESS CENTRES

ONTARIANS WITH DISABILITIES LEGISLATION

COMMUNITY CARE ACCESS CENTRES

LONDON HEALTH SCIENCES CENTRE

DURHAM REGIONAL CANCER CENTRE

PAYMENTS FOR LOW-INCOME CHILDREN

YOUNG OFFENDERS

FOREST INDUSTRY

ADULT LITERACY

MINIMUM WAGE

OAK RIDGES MORAINE

TOURISM

NORTHERN TRANSPORTATION

ACADEMIC TESTING

LEGISLATIVE PAGES

PETITIONS

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

PERSONAL NEEDS ALLOWANCE

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

ADOPTION DISCLOSURE

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

HIGHWAY 407

COMMUNITY CARE ACCESS CENTRES

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ONTARIANS WITH DISABILITIES

ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LES PERSONNES

HANDICAPÉES DE L'ONTARIO

Thursday 8 November 2001 Jeudi 8 novembre 2001

The House met at 1000.

Prayers.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

CONGENITAL HEART DEFECTS

AWARENESS DAY ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LA JOURNÉE

DE SENSIBILISATION

À LA CARDIOPATHIE CONGÉNITALE

Mr Spina moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 117,

An Act to proclaim Congenital Heart Defects Awareness Day / Projet de loi 117, Loi visant à proclamer la Journée de sensibilisation à la

cardiopathie congénitale.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): The member has up to 10 minutes for his presentation.

Mr Joseph Spina (Brampton Centre): I'm very proud to be bringing this bill forward to the Legislature. I'd like to give a bit of a description

and talk about some people to whom this is very important.

"Congenital" means inborn or existing at birth. A congenital heart defect occurs when the heart or the blood vessels near the heart don't develop normally before

birth. Congenital heart defects exist at the time of a child's birth, and were originally thought to be a rare occurrence. Today the medical community has identified congenital heart defects as one

of the most common birth defects and as the leading cause of defect-related deaths.

Medical research has identified more than 35 different types of congenital heart defects. They are present in about 1% of live births and are the most frequent

congenital malfunction in newborns. In fact, in most cases scientists don't know how they occur. One out of every 100 live births is affected by a defect or defects. Ontario has the highest per

capita.

Over 50% of children born with CHD will require at least one surgery in their lifetime; 20% of these children will not survive the first year. More children are

born with congenital heart defects than with Down's syndrome, spina bifida and HIV combined. Canadian doctors perform over 3,000 pediatric cardiac surgeries per year, with Toronto's Sick Kids

Hospital performing approximately 600 per year. There are in existence about 82,900 children under age 18 living in Canada with some form or forms of CHDs.

I want to acknowledge a group in the members' gallery that has come from across Ontario, some from as far as London and Woodstock, to see this important topic

debated here in this Legislature. These are everyday people who have been touched by someone with a congenital heart defect. This group is led by Debi Smart, spokesperson for the Children's Heart

Association for Support and Education, acronymed CHASE. She is also the founder of the heart and stroke congenital heart defects fund, and proud mother of 3-year-old Matthew, who is with us

today.

I'll give this as an example of many children who have these problems: Matthew was diagnosed during his mother's pregnancy with tricuspid atresia, ASD, VSD, and

a hypoplastic right ventricle. Matthew was born in Mount Sinai Hospital in April 1998 and was immediately rushed to Sick Kids, where he would undergo his first heart surgery the next morning. It

was five days later when mother Debi could hold him again. After 13 days, he was finally sent home on medication. At the age of six months, Matthew had his second heart surgery, the first of a

two-stage operation. In this surgery, they rerouted the blood from the top half of his body directly to his lungs. As Debi has told us, it was an excruciating experience to endure, seeing her child

in the intensive care unit, paralyzed, with so many tubes, wires and intravenous lines. The surgery was on a Monday, and the family was finally able to have Matthew home on Saturday.

Because there has been so much trauma to his tiny body so early in life, Matthew's teeth have been decaying, and dental surgery was performed last year to try to

repair some of that damage.

Matthew was to have the second stage of his surgery performed in November 2000, which would reroute the blood from the bottom half of his body directly to his

lungs. However, his doctors felt his heart function was not strong enough and that the risk of complications and chances of death outweighed the benefits. So Matthew has been placed on two

different medications and goes back in for tests again. His family prays that the medicine will improve his heart function.

Also in the gallery -- I'm happy to see that they were able to change their appointment at Sick Kids for 10 am this morning to this afternoon and join us today

for this important event -- is Michael, son of Joanne and David Hills from my own riding of Brampton. Joanne, by no coincidence, will be president of CHASE for 2002.

Michael was born with a defect known as hypoplastic left heart syndrome. A normal heart has four chambers, two collecting and two pumping chambers. Michael was

born with only one. Incredibly, he was not diagnosed until he was five and a half months old. Joanne and David, like most parents, were devastated, but comforted by the confidence they had in the

staff at Sick Children's. Within a 36-hour period before and after Michael's first surgery, he endured three cardiac arrests. Since then, Michael has had two more heart surgeries, three cardiac

catheterizations and numerous tests.

Michael is on a blood-thinning medication because he is at risk of developing a blood clot and having a stroke. He is also on blood pressure pills to help his

heart pump more effectively. Michael is three and a half years old and has spent over six months of his life in hospital. At some point in time, Michael will need a transplant.

The Hills have acknowledged that their lives have changed and they live each day for Michael's heart. They balance risks and consequences associated with

Michael. They hope that CHD Awareness Day will help show people the miracles of life. The disability is hidden, often behind a scar or scars on the chest. Michael will begin school next year, and

his parents have to start to put their trust in others to look out for Michael's interests.

Thirty, 40 or 50 years ago, most babies born with a congenital heart defect or defects died at birth or died very young. In the present day, most children can be

saved, and many grow up to lead a full and active life. I know a couple named Linda and Gene who in 1947 saw their two-year-old suddenly turn blue. Not knowing how to diagnose it, he was treated

for rheumatic fever with antibiotics. Of course it didn't make much difference, but he was able to survive. At age 5, he was finally diagnosed with some sort of heart defect. At age 11 it was

determined that he had to have a bypass, because blood wasn't getting to his lungs. He lived. At age 26 he had full open-heart surgery for a tetralogy of Fallot, repairing not only the hole between

the ventricles but also other parts of the body that needed to be repaired through that procedure. That child was me.

I understand the pain these parents are going through, because my mother and father were in the same place. Seeing a child in pain and not being able to do

anything about it is the worst feeling in the world. The wait for surgery and handing over a child who doesn't look sick is another terrible experience. Not knowing if he will have a normal life is

a terrible burden. These are the things that parents of CHD children live with on a day-to-day basis. Normal, everyday things suddenly become so important. Youngsters like Matthew and Michael can't

handle a large daycare setting, and it's difficult to find places that will look after the children on a regular basis. That is why awareness is needed. Until now, parents like Debi and Joanne have

relied on Internet support groups such as PDHeart and CHD-Ca. These are international groups that support the mothers and fathers and families of children born with congenital heart defects.

People around the world have been contacting government officials about proclaiming an awareness day. Almost all the US states, as well as many countries, have

proclamations in place. It is crucial that parents, pediatricians and all people who work in health professions have a greater awareness of the potential for CHDs among newborn babies. All are

encouraged to learn more about congenital heart defects, to participate in this special observance and to support its valuable goal of raising public awareness of a serious health matter that

affects newborn babies.

To all the children with CHD, I ask that the Lord keep you in the palm of his hand, and may the people of the world understand that these are special

children.

The Acting Speaker: Further debate?

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): I think it's important that we go on the record that we will be fully supportive of what's been put

forward today.

This is about children. We've had a lot of debate in this Legislature in the last little while about the cuts that have taken place in London. I read the

background material that was provided to me by the honourable member. He steered me to a number of Web sites to help me in my awareness of what's happening. As you go through the Web sites, they

take you to different places, different sites. One of the sites they lead you to is the London Health Sciences Centre. In fact, one of the sites for information and resources on congenital heart

diseases talks about pediatric cardiology departments. Do you know the only one listed? It's the London Health Sciences Centre. It talks about the London Health Sciences Centre and the great things

it does for adults and, more important, for pediatric cardiology services to the people of southwestern Ontario. It talks about the different services that are provided at the Children's Hospital

of Western Ontario and the great things they've been able to do to help kids in southwestern Ontario.

The tragedy is that as we stand here today, we've got a program that helps kids in southwestern Ontario. Because of budget constraints being put forward by this

government, we're seeing this program, which helps kids, destroyed. We had a debate in this Legislature this week about this program, and we Liberals wanted to see a halt to the cuts to this

program. It didn't happen. The government voted to allow these cuts to continue.

I can understand that the member is emotional about this. I do, because while I've never had to deal with this, I've met a lot of families over the past month

that have had to deal with this and that go through what these families have gone through. Here we are, as individuals, standing up -- it's so important that we stand up and bring awareness to this

issue. We have to bring awareness to this issue. But I implore all of you, as we bring awareness to the issue today -- and I'm sure there will be unanimous support in this Legislature for the bill

that's in front of us -- to look in your own hearts and think, if we're going to bring awareness to a program and the important things it does, why we as legislators would allow a program to be cut

that does the very things we want to do here today.

I want to talk -- and I'm not trying to make this political. I'm just trying to bring it back --

Hon Rob Sampson (Minister of Correctional Services): Not very much.

Mr Peters: Well, obviously -- I'm not going to go there; I'll leave it.

Hon Mr Sampson: You should.

Mr Peters: I should go there. Why are you allowing this to happen? Why are you allowing these cuts to take place in London? Children now have

this surgery available to them in southwestern Ontario, and you're going to force them and centralize the services to Sick Kids in Toronto. Come on.

This is a letter I received from Dr Yves Ouellette, who is in pediatric critical care medicine at Children's Hospital of Western Ontario: "The loss of cardiac

surgery services will have a profound effect on all pediatric care delivered at the Children's Hospital of Western Ontario. Pediatric cardiac surgery is a key program at CHWO. Approximately 250

children with congenital heart disease are treated at the Children's Hospital of Western Ontario. Most are admitted to the pediatric critical care unit for some time before and after surgery," some

of the very surgeries these children over here have had to go through. "The program is foundational and fully integrated with most of the other programs offered at the Children's Hospital of

Western Ontario."

One family talks about their young child being rushed to the emergency department at the children's hospital. Without the close proximity of the children's

hospital and the cardiac services, it's not likely that she would be alive.

Here's another family from Kitchener -- this was in the Kitchener-Waterloo Record on October 15, 2001: "A Kitchener family and their infant daughter who has

congenital heart disease are victims of health care cuts in another region." This young lady "was born with half a heart. When she was five months old, she had life-saving surgery at the London

Health Sciences Centre." The program is disappearing.

We're talking today about congenital heart defects. Look at the heart programs that have been announced to be cut by the London Health Sciences Centre: cardiac

transplant, pediatric and adult; cardiac arrhythmia surgery -- I saw a reference to that in the materials the honourable member put forward -- pediatric cardiology surgery, another program that's

being cut.

This is from Dr Kostuk, a cardiologist at the London Health Sciences Centre, dated October 9, 2001: "London came to be recognized as one of the leaders in

cardiovascular medicine. Two developments that contributed to this recognition were heart transplantation and arrhythmia surgery. Now that other academic centres in Canada have developed similar

programs we have learned that the London Health Sciences Centre will divest itself of these important programs....

"We cannot afford to lose pediatric cardiac surgery, cardiac transplantation, arrhythmia surgery or endovascular procedures. The fallout from loss of these

services will be profound. Inevitably it will lead to the loss of other support services. We will lose our ability not only to attract, but to maintain the young clinician/investigator. These are

the very individuals that are vital to maintain" London Health Sciences's "high standards of patient care and clinical research into the future."

As you look at the material that the honourable member provided as background for us to refer to as legislators to support this, it took us to the Web site in

London:

"The Children's Hospital of Western Ontario at the London Health Sciences Centre is one of three tertiary pediatric cardiovascular centres in the province.

Pediatric cardiology offers a wide range of cardiovascular services for children in southwestern Ontario. These ... include fetal echocardiography for prenatal diagnosis of congenital heart

disease, as well as a comprehensive range of invasive and non-invasive diagnostic procedures. Pediatric cardiology is an integral component of the pediatric heart transplant program, a co-operative

venture between the Children's Hospital of Western Ontario and the multi-organ transplant service at the London Health Sciences Centre."

In dealing with cardiac surgery, adult and pediatric:

"The London Health Sciences Centre provides the only tertiary pediatric surgical service between Toronto and Winnipeg. This service has developed both in volume

and complexity, with almost all aspects of pediatric heart surgery offered to infants and children. In addition, children from across Canada are referred to" London Health Sciences Centre's

"service for heart transplantation."

We're going to support this resolution, and it is something we must do to recognize what families have to go through. But I think it's incumbent on every one of

us in this Legislature to ensure that we provide the best services we possibly can to all our citizens and to not centralize services in Toronto, that we continue to maintain services for children

all across this great province, from London to Ottawa to Kingston to Toronto. Don't allow these cuts to continue.

To the member, I commend you for bringing this forward today.

The Acting Speaker: Further debate?

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): Thank you kindly, Speaker. Thank you for the chance to speak to this.

New Democrats support the bill before the Legislature today, of course. At the end of the day, the bill, I'm confident, will pass second reading. At some point

it will be put forward for third reading. It will become a statute. It will be in the statute books, and people who are inclined will be able to access it in the RSOs, the Revised Statutes of

Ontario, or on their statutes of Ontario disk.

But really, it's the families and friends and neighbours of children who have suffered from congenital heart disease who will carry on, as they have before and

without this legislation proclaiming February 14 as Congenital Heart Defects Awareness Day, with the knowledge that perhaps here in the province of Ontario, and hopefully in other jurisdictions as

well, there's been some statutory notice of the significance of that day to them.

When this bill passes second reading, this Legislature, short of third reading, will have been completed with the bill. It will then be put into the books. It'll

be there. It'll be there forever. And we'll move on to other things.

These families will continue raising their children. They'll continue going to incredible reservoirs of courage that I can't even begin to imagine -- the

strength that families, that parents of kids with congenital heart disease, have to muster to permit them to carry on, the strength their kids have to acquire, even the most infant of little kids,

the courage, the strength, the tenacity.

By passing this bill, have we done them the service we would like to think we have? I fear that perhaps we've betrayed these children. The bill proclaiming

February 14 as Congenital Heart Defects Awareness Day will pass, but the real commitment has to come from our collective commitment to invest sufficient resources in health care and in supports for

families struggling and coping with congenital heart disease in their children. The real commitment comes in our investment of resources to make sure medical resources are available to every family

at the earliest possible opportunity.

There are incredibly compelling comments reported in the Windsor Star, where Dr John Lee, a leading pediatric surgeon, says, "Parents in Windsor and across

southwestern Ontario have a right to be very worried for their children. There is an overwhelming fear right now that the whole pediatric program will be decimated because of the decisions

announced in London this week."

We've got a government that's been driven by its passion to provide tax cuts for the very wealthy, to provide more and yet more tax cuts for profitable

corporations like the big banks with their billion-dollar-a-year profits, knowing full well that every penny of those tax cuts is going to come from the education budget or the health budget. Those

are the two big-ticket items in its budget that the province of Ontario ought to be investing in.

We heard from the Ontario Hospital Association recently, here in Toronto and persistently and continuously across the province in community after community where

hospitals are based, that hospitals are facing ongoing crises because of the lack of funding for those hospitals and those services. London pediatric was compelled to make some very dramatic

decisions about the types of services it's going to be able to continue to provide, as a result of its suffering under the burden of a huge deficit as it has struggled with the underfunding and the

cuts to its budgets, cuts that are not cuts when they appear on a linear basis from year to subsequent year in budgets, but cuts that are real cuts when one examines (1) the increased demands

placed on London and its specialized services, and (2) the increased demands on hospitals across the province as we see aging communities, certainly in Niagara, one of the oldest communities now in

Ontario. We see incredible new stress on hospital services, on health care across the board, and a government that would rather give tax breaks to profitable corporations, a government that would

rather give tax breaks to the highest-paid, the wealthiest people in this province.

I disagree fundamentally with a tax break at the expense of health care. I disagree fundamentally with a tax break at the expense of education. I believe that in

a civil society, in a civilized society, in a caring society we don't force families to fend for themselves. We don't impose on them yet more and more burden, more and more cost by way of user fees

or the extraordinary expenses that families, parents of children with congenital heart disease and quite frankly any other number of ailments, have to bear as their own personal burden when they

have to travel great lengths, great distances to achieve medical care for their children, to acquire medical care and the appropriate medical services.

As a New Democrat, I believe it is impossible to sustain the largesse the Conservative government has provided for its corporate friends and its wealthy friends

and at the same time demonstrate any sense of responsibility to health care in Ontario or any sense of obligation to the families of children with congenital heart disease.

Every person who feels compelled to vote for this bill proclaiming February 14 Congenital Heart Defects Awareness Day ought to be committing themselves today to

rolling back this government's corporate tax cuts for wealthy, profitable corporations, and indeed to rolling back some of the obscene tax cuts for some of the wealthiest people in this province,

to ensure that there are adequate revenues, adequate investments in hospital care, in specialized hospital care, in research and in supports for families of children who suffer from congenital

heart disease and any number of other ailments as they take on incredible burdens out of their passion for their child's welfare and well-being, out of their love for a little baby born with the

defects that have been enumerated, knowing full well that kids die because of the increasing scarcity of medical resources.

The corporate tax cuts of this government have to be held to large account for the burdens young children with congenital heart disease continue to face and for

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I'm very pleased to join in the debate with respect to the bill brought forth by the member for

Brampton Centre, who gave a very impassioned and personal speech with respect to his reasons for bringing forth the act, which is to proclaim Congenital Heart Defects Awareness Day. The act reads

very clearly that, "February 14 in each year is proclaimed as Congenital Heart Defects Awareness Day." I think that not only the member's intent but also his reasons for wanting this to happen are

very fundamental and should be well received by this House.

I want to read something from the Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada in terms of dealing with the causes of congenital heart defects:

"Congenital heart defects are present in about 1% of live births and are the most frequent congenital malformations in newborns. In most cases, scientists don't

know why they occur. Some are caused by viral infections, such as German measles. If a mother contracts German measles during pregnancy, it can interfere with the development of the baby's heart or

produce other malfunctions. Certain conditions affecting multiple organs, such as Down's syndrome, can involve the heart as well. A high number of congenital heart defects result from excessive

drinking or using drugs such as cocaine during pregnancy.

"Forty years ago, most babies born with congenital heart defects died at birth. Those who lived were often seriously incapacitated by their defect. Today, most

children can be saved and many grow up to lead full, active lives. Although there are still many challenges that research is struggling to solve, the past 40 years have seen tremendous improvements

for children born with congenital heart defects."

Certainly that goes without saying in terms of the member for Brampton Centre's story about himself and what he and his family faced in this situation.

Also, the public should be aware of the Hospital for Sick Children cardiac programs. They are the largest cardiac programs in Ontario. They treat a total of

1,000 kids per year. They perform a high percentage of neo-natal surgeries under the age of one month; they perform 110 to 120 surgeries per year.

The only pediatric heart transplant hospital in Canada is Sick Children's. They perform a procedure called the ABO mismatch, where a heart of one blood type is

transplanted into a child of another blood type. They've been doing this surgery for five years and only one has been done in the United States. There are 7,000 to 10,000 outpatient visits per year

at Sick Children's. A number of these are for checkups and adjustments of medicines.

Also, the Sick Children's cardiac programs perform fetal echocardiography, as well as at Mount Sinai and Women's College Hospital. Ultrasound 17 weeks into

gestation can detect and identify cardiac defects in utero. When women are giving birth, they can immediately treat and provide the proper care for the infant. They also provide specialty

outpatient clinics like nutrition clinics, monitor diets, watch weight gain, and provide visits by nurse practitioners. The idea is to move children out as soon as possible because children get

better quicker in their home environment. Outpatient clinics also pick up problems that may occur. The child can be quickly diagnosed and treated safely. As well, they educate post-op parents on

how to look after their children, to look for warning signs etc, and provide family teaching materials.

Certainly, for my riding of Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford the Hospital for Sick Children plays a vital role in providing that particular service that we fundamentally

need in my area; it's been very well received and obviously is needed.

I'm speaking on the bill. I'm not getting off into the rhetoric that was brought forth by the other people who have spoken on this bill, but I'll say that the

member from Brampton Centre has brought forth something that I think is necessary in terms of public education and communication, to have February 14 in each year proclaimed as Congenital Heart

Defects Awareness Day. I hope that the members here focus on what is trying to be accomplished here in terms of information and certainly public education, something that is important to the

children of this province in terms of their health care.

Mr George Smitherman (Toronto Centre-Rosedale): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'm sorry to interrupt the debate but I wanted to take an

opportunity to extend a very warm Ontario welcome to a group of students visiting Ontario from France, along with their teacher and host, a great friend of mine, Greg Lawrence.

The Acting Speaker: You would know that's not a point of order. Welcome. Further debate?

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): I'm pleased to join the debate, to lend my support to the bill and to commend the parents and the

young people who have encouraged us to do this.

We're all familiar with various challenges that young people face. Collectively, by investing in finding solutions, finding cures, finding medical advances,

we've been able to change the course of events for young people. Fortunately, in Ontario there are just so many examples of that, where 30 or 40 years ago young people who may have faced these

challenges now have some terrific cures and remedies and can look forward to a very healthy, active and successful life. I welcome you here, particularly the young people. I always love to hear the

sound of young voices in the chamber.

Bills like this are helpful. They do focus attention on issues. They remind us that with a little bit of investment by all of us we can make some fundamental

changes. I think all of us have experience with some people who were born with significant heart defects that through medical advances have been either significantly reduced or cured, and thank

goodness for all of that.

I do think it is, however, important to remind ourselves that those do require public investments. I go back to the issue I've been raising for many, many

months in the Legislature, and that is that we have to debate our priorities in this province. I do believe it's timely, because we have a bill before us that is designed to get corporate taxes in

the province of Ontario 25% lower than in the United States. I say to all of us, there's no magic in finance. If you choose to have taxes in Ontario dramatically lower than our competitors in the

US, public services in Ontario will be dramatically lower. I would also say to the corporations that the statistics that the government provide us suggest that every employee in Ontario has health

coverage that costs $2,500 per employee less in Ontario than in the United States -- Michigan or any of the US states -- because of the way we fund our health care system.

I do think that all of us need to not only debate the merits of the language in the bill, but also to debate our actions here. I repeat, not only does the

government want them 25% lower, they've told the federal government to cut corporate taxes federally by another $7 billion to get them 45% lower than the US. That's what Mr Harris and Mr Flaherty

have been urging the federal government to do. We asked a question as recently as a week ago today: why would you want corporate taxes 45% lower than the US? At the same time, by the way, the

Premier wants the federal government to provide more funding for health care but he wants them to cut corporate taxes by another $7 billion. So I would say to the people in the Legislature --

Mr Garry J. Guzzo (Ottawa West-Nepean): That's how you get the money. You know that.

Mr Phillips: Mr Guzzo is making a point that perhaps he does support cutting federal corporate taxes by another $7 billion when we are told by

the Minister of Finance we have a severe problem to fund our health care system in Ontario. We will support the resolution very much, but we also think that perhaps it's time for the government to

take action. Rather than corporate taxes 25% lower than the US, let's have them competitive.

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): I am standing in support of Mr Spina's private member's bill today. I believe in awareness days for

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker: Order.

Ms Churley: I would say to the parents who have their children here today not to worry about them making a noise, because you can see they're

quieter than some of the members on the floor from time to time. So don't worry about it. It's a very pleasant noise as compared to the heckling that happens across the floor from time to time. Now

be quiet over there.

I am very happy to support this bill before us today. It's infrequently in this place that we share with each other human stories, talk a bit about who we are

as human beings and what we've gone through in our own lives. I, I'm sure like everybody, was very moved and touched by Mr Spina's personal story, and we're very happy to see him here alive and

well and boisterous, causing all kinds of trouble in the House every day from time to time.

I do want to welcome the parents and their children here today. I would say that as a mother of grown-up children now who was very lucky in terms of overall

these children growing up without major health problems, with sisters and brothers who have children overall growing up without serious problems until recently, where, in our family, my brother's

daughter -- my brother is a year younger than I and we're very close -- at the age of 15, so you can never take anything for granted, was diagnosed with a tumour on her pituitary gland. This was

over a year ago. We were shocked to the core and devastated, and we're still living with this. There was an operation; it was not totally successful and we don't know what's going to happen. My

brother and his wife -- they have two other children -- are going through the terror of living day to day not knowing what's going to happen to this beautiful eldest child of theirs. We spent time

together as a family, all of us, over the summer. It's very difficult. I only have a tiny glimpse of what it must be like for you to have your beautiful children and have to live with this day to

day.

I also learned from my sister and brother, however, that you do get on with life, because you have to. You take your kids out, you have fun with them and you

do the things that you do on a day-to-day basis, but as well you carry that with you all the time. I believe that this is important because, as I started to say, awareness days are important. I

agree with people when they say that it's just to bring awareness to the issue, and then there's the whole issue of how we spend our tax dollars. I'm concerned about what's happening in London,

very concerned about the health centre there. I'm concerned about what's happening overall with our health care system. I agree that we need, as legislators and as people, to talk about what our

tax dollars pay for and the value of those tax dollars.

But I also believe -- and the reason I'm glad this resolution is here before us -- that most people, unless you're directly affected with congenital heart

disease, don't think about it. It's not one of those high awareness ones. I'm involved in some breast cancer awareness and prostate cancer awareness and all of those kinds of diseases out there --

multiple sclerosis -- that are life-threatening, terrible diseases, and we've all in some way been affected by them. But how often do you hear congenital heart disease talked about? How often is

there an awareness of parents like these here today who are living day to day with this?

Do you know what's important about bringing this awareness to the Legislature? Every year now, on February 14, we're going to get up and talk about this and

hopefully, because we're talking about it and other people out there who have to live with it are talking about it, we will bring in the funding, the public policies, the support groups, more

research and all of the things, more and more than we're doing now because of an awareness. I'm hoping that out of this resolution today, which no doubt is going to be passed -- with great pleasure

-- people will learn more about the disease and will be wanting to sponsor more walks, more awareness, and out of it will grow more opportunities to do more research and find newer ways to try to

make these children healthier and live long, happy lives.

The other thing we should bear in mind is that although, as I understand it, children are born quite frequently with these heart defects, it can happen to

children at any time. I have a story here from a young girl who's involved in trying to save the London children's pediatric critical care unit. She has written a little story about it. She says:

"My name is Mary Klein. I received a heart transplant on December 3, 1998, and this is my story. I was in grade one when I got sick with a virus that affected my heart." Then she tells the story of

getting sicker and sicker and eventually having a heart transplant in that unit. As I was reading through the story it seemed to get happier and happier but it ends with, "I found out recently that

I will need another heart soon. This one is not working properly any more." She's going to have to go through that again.

All of us who feel that our children have escaped that and we're happy, you never know; it could strike. We need, on behalf of all Ontarians and particularly

those children here today, to pass this resolution today.

Mr Norm Miller (Parry Sound-Muskoka): It's my pleasure to rise today to join to the debate on Bill 117,

An Act to proclaim Congenital Heart

Defects Awareness Day. I think the member for Brampton Centre has brought this bill forward in large part because of his personal experience as a survivor of congenital heart defects. I think that

often happens around this House. I'm sure the member for Toronto-Danforth and her experience of adoption and finding her son is a large part of the reason she has brought forward her vital

statistics bill which is being debated at this time.

I'd like to join in the debate and read a letter from some parents who are involved with this who are here today: Michael and Carol Ferry, who I believe are

here with their kids, Justine, Michael and Natalie. Their letter states the situation very well, so I'd like to read that into the record.

"Dear honourable government member:

"I am writing you on behalf of the many people of Ontario whose lives are affected by congenital heart defects. Ranked as the most common birth defect, it is

estimated that almost one in 100 children are born with some type of defect. At least 35 types are now recognized. While some of these children are repairable or require no surgery, a full half of

these children will face one if not many surgeries in their lifetime.

"In July 1998, my daughter Natalie was born with a complex heart defect" -- and I might not get some of the medical terms perfect here -- "called hypoplastic

left ventricle with double outlet right ventricle, an atrial septal defect, a ventricular septal defect, stenosis of the mitral valve and an open patent ductus. This is a very severe birth defect

requiring several complicated open-heart surgeries. Until recently" -- that being 1983 -- "this defect was considered fatal and very few options existed. Her first surgery took place on September

29, 1998, at the age of 2.5 months, after several misdiagnoses. After months of cardiac checkups, several catheterizations and numerous other tests were followed by her second open-heart surgery in

April 1999. Finally, her third and final open-heart surgery took place January 11, 2001. The surgeons were happy with her recovery and she is doing extremely well since. Her heart will never be

`corrected,' and since hypoplastic left heart syndrome is the number one heart defect requiring transplantation and the field of cardiac surgery becoming more diverse each day, children like

Natalie are surviving longer and her chances of leading a normal life are increasing.

"Since my daughter's initial diagnosis, I have been spending my free time trying to educate and inform people about congenital heart defects." That's what this

bill is all about, trying to raise awareness of this problem. "There is quite a strong Internet presence offering their support to parents who have children with CHDs, but off-line there seems to

be little media attention given to CHDs and even less education. Most of the attention for heart disease seems to be focused on acquired heart disease and while I agree that this too is an

important area to focus on, CHDs are also important and further education about them needs to be done.

"I am respectfully requesting that you support our bill and set aside Valentine's Day as CHD Awareness Day. A day of remembrance and celebration of the great

medical advances, which keep children alive, would honour the unseen battle that children and adults with CHD fight daily. Creating a day of this kind would also help to lift the barrier of

ignorance that is in the public about CHDs. This would make a significant impact on the families who currently are coping with these diseases as well as families who will have this disease touch

their lives at a future point. The cardiac floor at Toronto's Sick Children's Hospital is always full of these little innocent patients."

That's from Mrs Carol Ferry, mom of Justine, aged seven, Michael, aged four, and Natalie, aged three, and husband Michael. Thank you very much for that

letter.

I'd like to add my support to this bill and hope that it accomplishes its goal of raising awareness of congenital heart defects with the goal of bringing about

more research and eventually a cure for many heart defects.

The Acting Speaker: Response?

Mr Spina: Thank you to the members of the government and, as well, particularly the members of the opposition for expressing their support for

this bill.

The guests in the gallery are wearing a red-and-blue ribbon which signifies the red and blue blood that flows through a normal heart, and it's important that

we remember that.

Parents are fortunate that today we have the technology and the practitioners in health care and the support groups internationally with the government-funded

program. In 1957, the bypass surgery I had the first time cost my father a year's salary. We are fortunate today. My second operation, which was open-heart surgery in 1972, was fully funded by our

health care system.

Funding for cardiac care continues to exist and has not been reduced. But London has other issues beyond funding. We appreciate what the member from

Elgin-Middlesex-London says. I think it's important that we remember what is happening and try to rectify the situation there. But they do provide excellent care, as does of course the Hospital for

Sick Children.

In the gallery, as I said, are Matthew, Michael and Krista. For them I want to say, with all the other children across Ontario, we hope they will survive as

successfully as I have. Darlene, who is with us, is another adult survivor. These families come from Hornby, Brampton, Woodstock, Mississauga and Toronto.

The important thing is that awareness means knowledge, and knowledge means appreciation for the health care needs of these children. At noon, after the vote,

if we are successful, I'll be asking for the bill to go to the standing committee on finance and economic affairs so that it can get due process in time so that we can declare February 14,

The Acting Speaker: This completes the time allocated to ballot item number 31. I will place the questions related to its disposition at 12

o'clock noon.

ARCHIVES AWARENESS WEEK

ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LA SEMAINE

DE SENSIBILISATION AUX ARCHIVES

Mr Johnson moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 116,

An Act to proclaim Archives Awareness Week / Projet de loi 116, Loi proclamant la Semaine de sensibilisation aux archives.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): The member has up to 10 minutes for his presentation.

Mr Bert Johnson (Perth-Middlesex): Last month, I attended the annual Italian Canadian Conference put on by the University of Toronto's Frank

Iacobucci Centre for Italian Canadian Studies. I was there to present to the university a copy of the book Bravi, Italians in the Town of St Marys, Ontario, a book written about the Italian

heritage of that town in my riding. I know my colleague Mr Guzzo will appreciate that book of heritage.

I tell you this because I feel it's very important that we protect and document our heritage for future generations. For the same reason, I have tabled this

bill,

An Act to proclaim Archives Awareness Week, 2001.

Archives are one of this province's hidden treasures. Many people have never visited their local archives or really thought about the service they provide.

Archives store, maintain and catalogue documents, photographs, audio and visual recordings, maps and other materials which make up our history. Archives collect and maintain original, unpublished

and published, often irreplaceable material, which, if not handled properly, can be permanently damaged or destroyed. I understand, for instance, that one of the preservation methods for documents

after floods is to immediately, or as soon as you can, freeze it, and it will become almost freeze-dried, and that will preserve most papers as well as we possibly can.

Archives are the place people can turn to find out more about their ancestors and their heritage, but many people are unaware of the resources available to

them.

Two weeks ago, I took some time to visit the Stratford-Perth Archives, and you know what? I learned things about the history of the city of Stratford and the

county of Perth that I didn't know, despite having lived in the region most of my life and representing that area for the last six last years.

During my visit, I did some research into my own history. The archivists, Lutzen Riedstra and Carolynn Bart-Riedstra, who are in attendance in the gallery

today, found for me a picture of the house I lived in in 1959 when I attended teachers' college in Stratford. The house was on Trinity Street, and I remember my landlady, Mrs Costello, with a great

deal of affection. It was a project of the archives in Stratford to take photographs of every house on every street in the city.

I was fascinated to see the catalogue of photographs the archives has and would like to see other residents made aware of these valuable resources. An

increased awareness is exactly what the Archives Awareness Week bill will accomplish.

Lutzen and Carolynn also made me aware of an interesting archival project they undertook for the millennium. The Stratford-Perth Archives worked with grade 11

students from Stratford Central Secondary School and interviewed women in the community who can be described as war brides -- women, mostly from Britain, who were married during World War II to

Canadian soldiers stationed overseas and after the war came to Canada with their new husbands.

This was an excellent opportunity for students to interact with people in their community and develop an understanding of the challenges and experiences faced

by those war brides. It also gave students the opportunity to see first-hand the importance and usefulness of having archival records, not only about personal experiences from World War II --

sometimes those of their grandparents -- but the importance of having archives in their community. Our community and future generations will benefit from having this information available.

Lutzen and Carolynn have worked with the Grade 11 students from Stratford Central Secondary School on other projects and work closely with their teacher, Susan

Stock.

In my hometown of Listowel, the local archives have been in their new home in the Listowel public library building for just over a year now. I was pleased to

be able to attend the official opening last year and to meet Sonja Robbin and Cathy Wideman, who are clerks in the Listowel Archives.

Currently, the Listowel Archives has a joint display with the Listowel Public Library this week to recognize Remembrance Day and the activities of our

veterans.

I wanted to mention examples from the Stratford-Perth Archives and the Listowel Archives, because they illustrate the important work that archivists are doing

in our communities. This is why I've introduced this bill to help raise awareness of archives, so that people can develop a better understanding and appreciation about our past.

Many of my legislative colleagues here this morning will be familiar with the annual Ontario Agriculture Week celebrations. Several years ago I introduced a

bill in this Legislature to designate the week before Thanksgiving as Ontario Agriculture Week. For the past four years, archivists from the Archives of Ontario have put together an archival

display of photos that have helped highlight the accomplishments and historical significance of the agri-food sector in Ontario. This year I was pleased that Carolyn Gray, Kate O'Rourke and James

Allan from the Archives of Ontario were able to provide an exhibit that was displayed outside the legislative dining room during Ontario Agriculture Week. This is an example of how archives make

Ontario aware of its archival treasures.

Another example that helps demonstrate the importance of archives and archives awareness is the CBC mini-series entitled Canada: A People's History. It's

interesting to note that for this 30-hour mini-series, the CBC collaborated with the National Archives of Canada and made use of 2,600 maps, paintings and photographs, as well as more than 200

moving images.

It's easy to appreciate the importance of archives, not only at a national level but also for our province, our communities and our families. If we are to

understand the people, events, emotions and struggles that produced the present and will shape our future, it's important that all the pieces from our past are preserved intact.

By having an Archives Awareness Week, the public will hopefully think more about their local documentary heritage and endeavour to preserve their own

documents, whether they are family photographs, journals, letters or community or corporate records. We all have an interest in heritage, because our heritage is our personal connection with our

community and with our past.

The Archives Association of Ontario is endeavouring to make the resources its members hold more accessible to all Ontarians through modern technology. The

archives association has developed ARCHEION, Ontario's archival information network, an on-line searchable database of documents available in the province's archives.

While this database is far from complete, it serves as a reference tool to provide information about archival holdings and services. The database links

together and provides a central gateway to province-wide information about the records of schools, colleges and universities, municipal and provincial governments, hospitals, religious

organizations, First Nations band councils, social and local community groups, business institutions and corporations.

I have brought forward this bill at the request of the Archives Association of Ontario, which represents 250 archives in this province as well as 300 other

members. This association lists increased outreach activities and increased awareness as one of its goals. By creating an Archives Awareness Week, this Legislature would support that goal and help

archives continue the important work they do.

Before I finish, I would like to recognize three other people, who are in the members' gallery to witness today's debate. They are Heather McMillan, executive

director, Archives Association of Ontario; Michael Moir, president of the Archives Association of Ontario; and Peggy Mooney, director of the archival operations branch of the Archives of

Ontario.

I want to point out that it was Carolynn Bart-Riedstra's year as president of the Archives Association of Ontario a few years ago that brought about this idea

of an awareness week to cast more light on the good work they do.

I also want to thank my colleagues in the Legislature for being here this morning and to thank those of you who have agreed to speak on my private member's

bill.

The Acting Speaker: Further debate?

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): I want to commend the honourable member for this initiative that he's put forward and also his work

in recognition of Agriculture Week. These are two weeks that Mr Johnson and I think are of extreme importance.

A lot of us don't realize how important is the onus on each of us to preserve the past for future generations. The Ontario archives have been serving the

citizens of Ontario for 98 years. It was established in 1903. It does a very important job of preserving the heritage of this province. I think it's incumbent on the government, and I certainly

urge the government, to do everything it can to continue to provide not only stable funding but increased funding of the Ontario archives, because once these records are gone, they're gone. We

can't allow that to happen. In this day and age when we're seeing a massive number of municipalities disappear, we have to ensure that as these municipalities disappear the archival records do not

disappear. But it's happened.

I've heard countless cases of municipal amalgamations where somebody didn't have the foresight to preserve records, or they thought, "We'll just keep the

assessment rolls; that will be sufficient." But there are a lot of other documents generated in a municipality that need to be preserved for future generations. So we can't allow that to happen,

and we need to give the resources to the Ontario archives to make sure we know what is out there and that it's not going to be lost.

We can't allow things to happen like a few weeks ago when I was out on a tour through my riding and visited a local women's institute. The women's institute

owns an old school, and they've done a wonderful job preserving the school. I asked them, "Where's your Tweedsmuir history?" Well, a number of years before, somebody had decided to houseclean, and

the Tweedsmuir history went into the burn pile. You hear about that a lot. A lot of families clear out the house when somebody passes away. The furniture and the china are the important stuff, but

the family photos and documents and letters end up in the burn pile. We need to do everything we can to increase awareness of our archives.

From a genealogical standpoint -- genealogy is one of the fastest growing hobbies out there right now -- every one of us should try to do what we can to learn

where we've come from. That's another reason we need to have archives to preserve these records.

I look at my own county of Elgin. The county of Elgin had the foresight years ago to save its records. They didn't have a proper repository for those records,

but they found storage space and squirreled them away. They had individuals over the years who recognized that some day this stuff was going to be important. I commend the county of Elgin, because

what they've done is hire an archivist and committed the capital dollars to establish an archives, and they've made the long-term operating commitment to keep that archives alive. So I commend the

county of Elgin for the foresight they've had to keep the heritage alive for future generations.

But I think too, as we see the Ontario archives down here at 77 Grenville with their storage repositories, they're cramped for space. I know Management Board

is looking at initiatives to try and help the Ontario archives, and I think that's good, but I don't think we need to have everything centralized in Toronto. You have the Perth archives. We have

the Elgin archives now. But why don't we look as a government at establishing regional archives? I can look at my own county of Elgin as an example.

The St Thomas Psychiatric Hospital is soon going to be vacant. The place is built like a bomb shelter. It's never going to burn down, it's dry and it has the

ability to be turned into a formal archive. Why don't we look at regional archives, use some of these institutions that are being taken out of use right now? Let's establish a regional archive for

southwestern Ontario as an example. It's very interesting: there are six wings, so you could have the Essex wing, the Kent wing, the Lambton wing, the Elgin wing, the Middlesex wing and the Oxford

wing -- six wings, six counties -- preserve those records. I think we need to do everything we can to support the archives and not allow our heritage to be destroyed.

I commend Mr Johnson for bringing this forward. I know a number of people chuckled. My first statement in this Legislature was about archives, but I'm

passionate about it. I think it's important that we do preserve our past for future generations, because if you don't know where you've been, you certainly don't know where you're going.

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): I like the bill. I'm going to support it. Other New Democrats are going to support it. I like archivists. I

like archives. There really are several different worlds we're talking about. We're talking about the Ontario archives, and I've been down there. My greatest interest has been in the photographic

collections. The photographic history that has been accumulated there of every part of Ontario -- small town and big city alike. I uncovered, and as a matter of fact we got them distributed out

through the community by way of printing them up, incredible, great archival photos from Thorold South, for instance, from Crowland, from Fenwick and Ridgeville and Fonthill, from old Welland, the

old Welland court house during its construction in the middle of the 19th century -- an incredible collection of resources. And my only personal exposure so far has been to the photographic

collection.

That's big-city province of Ontario. Reference has been made to the need for smaller towns, places like Welland, with its museum facility. You've got to

understand that small-town museums have changed dramatically over the course of, I'd say, the last 15 to 20 years, because they are now no longer just display places for antiquities; they are

becoming increasingly, and increasingly importantly so, archival repositories. These small-town museums need resources to do their job properly. Even here at the Ontario archives I read that 25% --

if I'm wrong, folks, tell me -- of the paper collection is regarded as brittle and beyond use. Do you know what that means? It means if you pick it up, it's going to crumble like dust. And that

number is undoubtedly growing, notwithstanding the best efforts and the best application of the most current technology.

The faith we have in old videotape and now CDs may not be quite warranted, because the evidence isn't in yet. It's going to require the passage of time to

determine how effective these media are for actually preserving their content, because there's some speculation, notwithstanding the claims of the industry manufacturing this stuff, that in fact

the lifespan in terms of it being utilizable as a recording medium is far shorter than anybody anticipated, even as short as 20 and 25 years.

Just the other day at the National Archives -- it's incredible, the stuff. I ran across the deposit, if that's not an inappropriate word, of Jerry Gray. Jerry

Gray was one of the founding members, along with Jerry Goodis and Simone Johnston, of the Travellers. They were a Canadian group, very progressive politically. They identified themselves with the

good cause, with the good fight, with trade unionists and the progressive movement. They emulated the Weavers from the United States. In fact, they were at the front of the Canadian cultural

movement fighting McCarthyism from Canada. They were mentored by Pete Seeger, who encouraged them to carry on performing. They were at picket lines across this province, across this country. They

became incredibly popular. They penned the Canadian version of This Land is Your Land, which, as you may know, is Woody Guthrie's socialist anthem in response to God Bless America. As a kid, I was

proud to sing that socialist anthem penned by Woody Guthrie. How many of us didn't sing This Land is Your Land in elementary school songbooks?

But the Travellers: it was Jerry Gray's deposit in the National Archives. The Travellers travelled -- they did travel. Having penned -- I just wanted to let

you know, because I learned this from the Archives, right? -- the Canadian version of This Land is Your Land with the permission of Guthrie, who was still alive at the time -- he died in 1967 --

they gave all of the royalties, because it was a huge-selling song and it made a fortune, to the Woody Guthrie trust fund to raise his children, because Guthrie of course was very sick with

Huntington's chorea and died in 1967.

I just wanted to illustrate. I mean, you stumble across these incredible gems, and I was concerned about the modest quantity of items in the Jerry Gray deposit

with the National Archives. There's some CBC television film footage -- or kinescope I suspect it is, because it goes back to the very first and second years of CBC television broadcasting here in

the country -- some audiotape. This stuff is very, very fragile. If this stuff isn't attended to -- and the volume of stuff even at the national level, in the National Archives, is so huge because

there's a paucity of resources there too to enable archivists to do their craft, to do the things that they do best and (1) preserve it, (2) duplicate it so you've got backup and (3) catalogue it

so people can access it. One of the problems with underfunded archival services is you can have room after room of material -- am I right or wrong? -- and if the archivists and the people running

that archival facility don't have the resources to catalogue, well, it might as well be in the burn pile because it's going to disappear, and disappear incrementally, increasingly so over the

course of the years as more and more stuff is piled up on it.

Rosario Marchese has been persistent in this House in terms of advocating tougher heritage legislation, in terms of protecting heritage sites and heritage

buildings. We need that kind of legislation. None of us is as young as we used to be, but in my lifetime we've seen the disappearance of some incredibly valuable buildings and places. We just

witnessed the opportunity for this government to preserve the site and the foundation of a former Parliament building down in the south end of Toronto, closer to the lakeshore. Surely it's in the

scope of the intent and the spirit of this legislation for this government to want to embrace the opportunity that Rosario Marchese, the member for Trinity-Spadina, has presented to them, saying,

"Here's our chance to preserve a site and, yes, some concrete, real hard-rock evidence of a very significant historical site." Do you remember the Mercer Reformatory, the women's reformatory south

of here in what was then downtown? Do you folks remember Mercer Reformatory, the incredible Gothic building that was? Do you know the building I'm talking about? Too young? Mercer Reformatory, the

women's reformatory, was an incredibly frightening building, as prisons are inclined to be, but the loss of that building and what it represents in terms of understanding the history of this city,

this province, this country, is just incredible and it's incredibly acute.

Here we get down to where the rubber hits the road. It's not good enough to pat our archivists on the head and say, "Good job, archivists." They know they're

doing a good job. They're doing it with broken tools and with inadequate resources. They're doing it with insufficient space in which to put the stuff that has to be put. They're doing it, working

as hard as any professional could ever work, and working well beyond the call of duty, knowing that notwithstanding their best efforts, stuff is still going to be lost. That's not right; that's

wrong. It's not enough to pass Archives Awareness Week. What good does it do to be aware of archives if we don't support the archives, if we don't invest in them, if we don't put resources into

them, if we don't build the facilities? We have the capacity. Just think of the capacity we have in this province, using the Ontario archives as an anchor, as the provincial base, as the source of

support and expertise to develop archival facilities across this province, big city and small.

I think of the Ukrainian Labour Temple in Welland, down on Ontario Road. I've seen their archives, not preserved in an archival manner, but preserved out of

love of the history of that great institution, that workers' centre, the place where people rallied, one of the rallying points for the Crowland relief workers' strike, back when the government of

the day forced these workers to work at gunpoint for their social assistance. It sounds familiar, doesn't it? These workers in Crowland had the audacity to say, "No, if you're going to force us to

work, we're going to organize into a union and you're at least going to pay us wages that permit us to feed our kids." The response of the government of the day was to bring down Hepburn's hussars

and force them to work at gunpoint. Some things just never change at all.

In any event, the Ukrainian Labour Temple has this incredible collection of material, and it struggles along, quite frankly, with Varenyky's Perogies sales on

Friday mornings to maintain that building, to maintain the facility and to maintain a place to keep so many of these photographs, records, newspaper clippings, documents and letters and stuff that

is memorabilia in one sense, but incredible and significant historical reference material in another.

In places like Welland, places like Pelham, if communities don't have museums, the libraries are more than eager to help participate in this archival function.

Libraries would love to see their capacity expanded so they can perform not only the active, hands-on daily research, reading, computer work, Interneting sort of stuff, but so they can also have

the place, which is a secure place and a place where archival material is documented.

Sometimes it's the most innocuous and seemingly irrelevant thing, but you look at the passport of an immigrant from Europe or any number of other places from

the 1920s or 1930s, you look at the boat card, the shipping card that accompanied them, stamped, showing which ship these folks came over on, and you know what? A lot of those folks were illegal

immigrants in their own right; they were.

I've talked to many an old Ukrainian, Hungarian, Pole, Italian. With the comfort now of Canadian citizenship well secured, they will acknowledge that, yes,

given their desperation as economic or political or religious refugees, their situation was so oppressive that, yes, they broke the law, they lied. They sometimes misled the authorities, just like

refuseniks out of the Soviet Union who were seeking entry to Israel. It's acknowledged. I've just read Chaim Potok's book, his history of one family in the refusenik movement. He chronicles the

deceit that Jews in the Soviet Union had to resort to, to get out of the Soviet Union.

These are and were, I suppose, illegal immigrants, but I applaud them. I applaud the courage of these immigrants. I applaud their willingness to do what they

had to do to save their families, to make life better for their kids and their grandkids. At the end of the day, I'm the kid of one of those kinds of immigrants.

This sort of material is disappearing daily as people get older, as people pass away and families move on and get rid of the clutter and the boxes of material

and the shipping steamer containers of material. This stuff is disappearing rapidly and we have a limited time frame in which to preserve it.

The author and sponsor of this bill has got to move on beyond this bill. We've got to support this bill today, but we've got to use this as a jump-off point

for a major campaign to generate a mobilization by libraries, museums, archivists across Ontario to launch a major campaign to get resources out there, because this is SOS. It really is that level

of emergency. This stuff is disappearing. It's disappearing into the blue boxes, into the garbage bins, into the ashbins, into the fire bins of any number of backyards on a daily basis. It is far

too valuable to see slip away.

I refuse to let our history, as preserved and recorded, reflect only the history of the very wealthy and the very elite, the ones who have the money and the

resources: the Eaton family and the what-have-yous. I refuse to let them monopolize the recorded and preserved history of our province and our country, because the real history of this province and

this country is the small immigrants, the little people. I have no hesitation calling them "the little people." Those are the kind of people who came from the little villages like where my family

came from, peasants who came here and who possessed these huge collections of everything from photographs to marriage certificates that constitute the real history of this province and our

greatness.

We've got to fight and we've got to treat it as an emergency scenario to get resources out there into communities, big and small, to give them the tools to

develop archival facilities, to run them properly, to staff them, to properly catalogue and preserve and collect this type of information.

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I'm very pleased to join in the debate with respect to the bill brought forth by the member

from Perth-Middlesex,

An Act to proclaim Archives Awareness Week. The act reads, "The week beginning on the first Monday in April in each year is proclaimed as Archives Awareness Week." I want to

indicate my support of the member for the work he's done in this area, and I certainly hope the House would support this bill today.

Archives are an important part of any community, but I have to say that I believe the area I represent is served by the best regional archives in the province.

The Simcoe County Archives, founded in 1966, was the first county archives established in Ontario.

The Simcoe County Archives lists on its Web site two principal roles, and I quote from the Web site:

"The first of these is the preservation and promotion of Simcoe county's cultural and visible heritage. The archives collects, preserves, and makes accessible

to the public, the documentary history of Simcoe county. The archives' extensive and important collection of maps, photographs, original manuscripts, magnetic and digital recordings, newspapers and

other records make it one of the most highly regarded `regional' archives in the country. The archival collection documents the political, social and economic history of Simcoe county. In addition

to private manuscript collections, the archives houses the records and documentary histories of schools, churches, businesses and all manner of institutions, and its earliest record, an original

map, dates from 1540.

"The archives' second role is to provide efficient permanent records management services to the executive, management and administrative departments of the

county of Simcoe, and also to serve the same needs of the municipalities which comprise the county. The archives provides storage, organization and public access for the permanent retention,

non-active public records of the various levels of Simcoe county government."

The Simcoe County Archives serves Ontarians and others who are researching their own personal heritage and ancestors. This archives has census records

available dating back to 1861, farm and business directories dating as far back as 1866 and information collected from headstones and monument inscriptions from many area cemeteries.

As the member for Perth-Middlesex has said, these services are very important to maintaining the history of our citizens, our communities and our province as a

whole.

With greater public awareness and interest in our archives, those archives could be further improved. Individuals might be encouraged to turn over any

documents or photographs they have stored in their attics or basements to the archives, where those materials can be properly stored, maintained and catalogued for future use.

Greater public interest could also encourage greater corporate involvement in archives, both as contributors of documents and as sponsors of projects. Archives

are facing one of the largest projects they've ever faced: creating an on-line catalogue of archival material. The AAO's program, ARCHEION, will someday make archives easily accessible from

people's home computers anywhere in the world.

For these reasons the Archives Association of Ontario has made raising public awareness part of its mandate. By supporting this bill, I support that goal and

our archives.

The National Archives of Canada contributed extensively to the CBC miniseries Canada: A People's History. Those are just some of the good works that can

contribute to our society. Archives can also contribute to cultural tourism.

I also believe that the Simcoe County Archives, in terms of the type of work it's performing and its representation here today at this debate on this public

bill, certainly is significant. I welcome the participation and the attendance of members of the archives authority.

I'm pleased to speak on this bill and I'm confident that it will receive the support that it deserves.

Ms Caroline Di Cocco (Sarnia-Lambton): I want to commend, first of all, the member for Perth-Middlesex for his bill,

An Act to proclaim

Archives Awareness Week. Although I want to commend him for that part of the support, if you want, to the archives association, I want to reiterate what my colleague from Elgin-Middlesex-London has

stated, and I also heard the member for Niagara Centre and others speak about the fact that the support to the archives association means more than that. It has to mean more than that.

One of the roles of government is not only to provide this kind of support, which is an integral part of supporting the archives, but there's also a role of

government in ensuring that the professionals who preserve, interpret and process these documents have the resources that they need to continue their work. That's all part and parcel of this,

because we can have the best archives in the world, but if we don't maintain the numbers of the professionals required and if we don't have the facilities and consistently upgrade them, improve

them and add to them, if we don't move forward in those areas, we're only going to move backwards.

Today, as you know, we have very little protection when it comes to our heritage buildings. One of the unfortunate aspects in this Legislature is the fact that

when it comes to government policy, since my time here, there's been an indifference to heritage. That's the best way I can describe it.

I toured the Archives of Ontario a couple of times and I found them absolutely fascinating. One of the most interesting aspects of it is the actual technology

they have in preserving some of these rare documents so that they'll be there for posterity, but also making them available because of the technology they have to put them on the Web site and to

have people leaf through without damaging the original pieces. That's a great deal of technical and professional work. I have a sense that when it comes to actually supporting it with a fiscal

backup, I believe the Ontario Conservatives this day have, I'll use the word "indifference," to this aspect of our cultural heritage.

I was speaking with my colleague from Toronto Centre-Rosedale, and he spoke to me about the lesbian and gay archives, for instance, that he has a personal

interest in. It helps us to understand what our identity is.

One of the things I have done in my search, if you want, of identity is that I co-authored and did some research on the history of Italian-Canadians in my

area, as a way to be a part of this Canadian diversity that we have, this Ontario diversity. That's what the archives do: they preserve the history of Ontario's peoples and all of these wonderful

stories and anecdotes.

I find that when we sit around at caucus that the member for Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke is a wealth of information when it comes to historical information

about this political setting. Again, turning back to the archives -- I'm not trying to say that you're an archivist or that you're a museum of sorts -- I want to say that it's really important that

we maintain and support the archives association, and I thank the member for Perth-Middlesex.

Mr Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North): It's really nice to stand here this morning and support Bill 116, the Archives Awareness Week Act, 2001, by

our colleague Mr Johnson from Perth. We've talked a little bit about archives awareness in the past and I'm really pleased to see that Mr Johnson has taken the initiative.

I would also like to take this opportunity to welcome all these fine young students here this morning. It's great to see them here. We're talking about the

archives of the province of Ontario. I don't know if you know what they are yet, but you will know over the next few minutes when we vote for this bill.

I would like to take a moment and speak as well to something my colleague from Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford spoke on, and that's the Simcoe County Archives. It's too

bad I couldn't have gone ahead of him because he stole some of my thunder with some of his comments. But as a person who spent 18½ years in the county of Simcoe as reeve of a community, I'm

very pleased that the county of Simcoe was the first county-based archives in Ontario, dating back to 1966. If you've ever had an opportunity to visit an archives at the county level in the

province, I commend you for it. If you haven't, I would ask, if you ever have an opportunity to visit Simcoe county, that you come to Midhurst and have a look at the archives there. You'll find

what they've done with the archives in Simcoe over the last almost 40 years now absolutely amazing.

I would like to give a little bit of history on the Simcoe County Archives. As I said, the original archives were founded in 1996 as part of Simcoe county's

Canadian centennial project. That was an amazing project. Everybody remembers Expo `67 and all that type of thing. Norbert Moran commenced his duties as Simcoe county's first archivist on May 2,

1966, and the transfer of the county's corporate records to its new archives took place later that month. The archives opened to the public on November 22, 1966, as the 2,200-square-foot addition

to the Simcoe County Museum was unveiled for the first time. That's where the archives are today.

In January 1975, Peter Moran followed his father as the second Simcoe county archivist, a winner of the J.J. Talman award for pioneering efforts in the field

of local archives.

Peter oversaw the evolution of Simcoe County Archives into one of the finest regional archives in the province of Ontario, as well as in Canada. A specialized,

4,000-square-foot controlled environmental structure was opened in February 1980 as the archives continued to grow. As I said earlier, the addition in 1992 effectively doubled the size of the

archives to 8,000 square feet. The person I actually got this information from, Bruce Beacock, was named archivist in 1994 and a year later, in 1995, was given the permanent position as the Simcoe

county archivist.

I know when we talk about archives -- and the member from Elgin-Middlesex mentioned it -- about how many records have been destroyed over the years in some of

the smaller municipalities, I was really pleased to see that when Simcoe county restructured in 1993 and 1994, all of the records from the 33 municipalities were taken to the archives and

preserved. I know it was a big project because you had literally roomfuls of material that had to be documented and set aside so that the staff at the archives could work with it.

The archives around the province are not very vocal. That's for sure. We don't get a lot of resolutions or lobbying days here at Queen's Park from the

archives. But I compliment the member from Perth for his foresight. It brings some attention to the archives here in the provincial Legislature. A lot of people don't even know what they are across

our province. That's why I did mention it to the young people in the audience. It is important that we preserve our past. I know, as Mr Tascona mentioned, we have records at the Simcoe County

Archives dating back to 1540. That's the original maps they have.

With that, I compliment the member for bringing forth this bill. I think everyone in the House will support it. I would hope that you'll continue with these

fine thoughts that you've come forward within your private member's bill and your agriculture week etc. Thank you very much.

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke): I'm pleased to rise and support the motion standing in the name of our friend the member from

Perth, the Laird of Listowel, in drawing our attention to the importance of archives. I want to happily endorse the bill and use this opportunity this morning to say a couple of things to the

provincial Legislature here in Ontario about our provincial archives. I do so in a very ecumenical spirit because I want to observe that the province of Ontario has, without a doubt, one of the

truly great archival collections at 77 Grenville Street and elsewhere. And we have, without a doubt, the worst physical space in which that material is located of any of the provinces or the

federal government across the Dominion. That should be of concern to this Legislature.

It is not a fault of the Harris government. Quite frankly, the blame can be shared by provincial governments over the last 25 years. How many of you here have

been over to that eight- or nine-storey office building about two blocks from here? Again, a great collection in a perfectly awful place. Because archival material is, as we all know, so very

important for both social and economic reasons, we owe it to the people of Ontario, these young people in the galleries behind, among others, to better display the materials that we have not very

far from this place. We have hundreds of thousands of photographs and maps and other very valuable materials. We have no exhibition hall here in this great metropolitan centre of Toronto. Why is

that? Why are we not taking advantage of that great resource at a time when we know that things like genealogy are booming? Archives on-line are bringing tens of thousands of new people into

contact with this information, as the member from Niagara was rightly pointing out: all kinds of new Canadians very interested in knowing something about their roots and their connection now to

this new land of theirs.

A famous Canadian academic and the second Dominion archivist, a remarkable character, Sir Arthur George Doughty, who ran the National Archives from about 1904

to 1936, said, in a public remark in 1924, the following: "Of all national assets, archives are the most precious. They are the gift of one generation to another, and the extent of our care of them

marks the extent of our civilization." Powerful words. Strong medicine. Boy, by Doughty's standard, we here in the province of Ontario don't measure up very well.

I want to make the point as well: previous speakers have done an excellent job of saying that in their communities there are wonderful local archives. In the

Ottawa Valley, which I am proud to represent, I have several. Two come to mind this morning. Heritage Renfrew: people like Marge Lindsay and Dave Lorente and Jim MacGregor and many others -- some

of them well-known and related to the Minister of Corrections -- have done a fabulous job with the Renfrew archives. Down the road in Arnprior, we have the Arnprior and District Archives: a great

collection exceptionally well organized and presented by Laurie Dougherty and others like Peter Hessel, who was instrumental in bringing about that Arnprior and District Archives collection, which

among other things highlights the great lumber heritage of the Ottawa Valley -- great stories.

I'm finding, as I'm sure all members are, that something seems to be happening. I think the member from Barrie just pointed out that we have this series

running on national television, Canada: A People's History. There's a tremendous audience for that. I don't know whether it's this increasingly rootless suburban world that we now all seem to

occupy that is making people wonder about their roots and their past. I simply want to support the member, congratulate him for bringing this forward; and I want to say in a very bi-partisan way to

this Legislature that not only should we support our friend from Listowel, but we should know this: we have a fabulous collection in an absolutely appalling location. We have done precious little

to highlight that collection for its social or its economic value. I think in supporting our friend from Listowel we should collectively try to do something about that.

Mr Norm Miller (Parry Sound-Muskoka): I rise today to join the debate on Bill 116,

An Act to proclaim Archives Awareness Week, which was put

forward by the member for Perth-Middlesex. I'd like to also take note of the fact that there's a school here from Burlington today -- the John T. Tuck Public School -- here in the gallery and

welcome them to the Legislature.

Certainly, I know the Archives Association of Ontario has been instrumental in bringing forward this bill and supporting it. There has been an Archives

Awareness Day the first Monday of each year, and this bill would extend that to a complete week. The day has been very successful in the past, and this would extend it to a week to raise awareness

further of archives.

I rise today in support of this bill because I see an ever-increasing interest in our history. Over the past few years, countless books in Parry Sound-Muskoka

have been written by authors such as John Macfie from the Parry Sound area. I have one of his books, Logging Days in Parry Sound. He's written several books. In fact, I ran into him at a Legion

event about a month or so ago and he made me aware of his latest book, which I've got a copy of. Robert J. Boyer in Bracebridge, a well-known historian and former member of provincial parliament

for Muskoka, has written several books on the history of Bracebridge and the Muskoka area.

This interest has also brought about the refurbishing of some major pieces of our history; in particular in our area the Segwun steamship was relaunched in

1980 and continues to take thousands of people around the Muskoka lakes every year, running from the spring right through into the fall. More recently in Huntsville, a group of steam train and

history enthusiasts brought back the Portage Flyer. The Portage Flyer is a narrow-gauge steam train that transported vacationers to Bigwin Inn of Lake of Bays, a whole mile-and-an-eighth-long run

from Penn Lake to Lake of Bays from 1904 to 1958. The Flyer, which now runs out of Huntsville's Muskoka Heritage Place and was just recently brought back into service in the last couple of years,

was the smallest commercial train in the world. I had a chance to ride it this summer when the Lieutenant Governor of Ontario visited Bracebridge and Huntsville and in fact went for a ride on the

Flyer herself.

In the west side of my riding, the Parry Sound fire hall, built in 1893, has been refurbished and attracts locals and tourists interested in the area's

history.

Such projects cannot be accomplished without historically accurate information, information that is usually and sometimes only found in archives.

As much as such organizations turn to archives to help them re-create aspects of our history, individuals also turn to archives for their own heritage or the

history of their possessions. At the annual Muskoka antique boat show, many of the launch owners love to show off their spectacular wooden launches. Without archives, much of the information having

to do with those beautiful launches and boats would be lost, and that extra added dimension would be lost.

Right now in the West Parry Sound District Museum, which is a very active museum in the town of Parry Sound, you'll find an interesting exhibit about

temperance and prohibition, something maybe some of the members of this House could learn something from. This exhibit has been researched and developed by the Peterborough Centennial Museum and

Archives.

As the member for Perth-Middlesex has said, the Archives Association of Ontario is trying to raise awareness of archives and their role in our society. Passing

this bill is one way we can offer our support to that endeavour.

I might add that in my area there seems to be certainly a lot of recent awareness to do with history and archives. In fact, tomorrow I have a meeting with

Barbara Patterson, chair of the Muskoka Heritage Foundation archives task force, and also another meeting to do with history.

My time is running out, so I'd like to offer support to this bill. I'm sure it's going to be successful in raising awareness that can help generate support for

archives.

The Acting Speaker: I would remind members of the gallery that we love to have you here with us, but you cannot participate in any way in the

proceedings.

Response, the member for Perth-Middlesex.

Mr Johnson: I just wanted to express my appreciation for all those who have taken the time to express their opinion and enter the debate, and

we should take those suggestions and ideas into consideration as this bill goes forward.

I did want to sum up my own feelings about the participation and the support for the bill. Yes, there is always need for more money in government programs to

support such worthy projects as archives. I think the member from Renfrew makes a very good point when he points out that -- here, for instance, we have students visiting us from different areas,

including Burlington. They may take in a trip to the Royal Ontario Museum, which has a very good presence up on Queen's Park, up Avenue Road, so close that it can be taken into consideration for a

school trip to this place. Our archives aren't in the type of facility that lends itself to that sort of trip, and maybe that's something that we, as legislators, should be looking at so that

students, in the years to come, could visit the Archives of Ontario, in particular, when they come and visit places in Toronto like the CN Tower, the Science Centre and those other provincial

landmarks in our midst.

I did want to thank all those who participated in the debate this morning.

The Acting Speaker: This completes the time allocated for dealing with ballot item number 32. At 12 o'clock noon I will place the questions

related to these two ballot items.

Mr Joseph Spina (Brampton Centre): Mr Speaker, I wonder if I could ask unanimous consent that the questions be put forward now?

The Acting Speaker: The standing orders are quite clear. Because this is private members' business, this obviously is not a whip situation.

The vote cannot take place before 12 o'clock noon.

Hon Cameron Jackson (Minister of Citizenship, minister responsible for seniors): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'd like to engage the House

and advise that the grade 5 students from John T. Tuck Public School are present in the House today from the great riding of Burlington.

The Acting Speaker: Thank you. As you know, that is not a point of order. They've been introduced now twice, and that's terrific. It was great

fun to have them with us.

CONGENITAL HEART DEFECTS

AWARENESS DAY ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LA JOURNÉE

DE SENSIBILISATION

À LA CARDIOPATHIE CONGÉNITALE

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): We will now deal with ballot item number 31. Mr Spina has moved second reading of Bill 117,

An Act

to proclaim Congenital Heart Defects Awareness Day. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Mr Joseph Spina (Brampton Centre): I thank all of the members of the House for supporting this. I would ask if the bill could be referred to

the standing committee on finance and economic affairs.

The Acting Speaker: Mr Spina has asked that the bill be referred to the standing committee on finance and economic affairs. Agreed?

Agreed.

ARCHIVES AWARENESS WEEK

ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LA SEMAINE

DE SENSIBILISATION AUX ARCHIVES

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): We will now deal with ballot item number 32. Mr Johnson has moved second reading of Bill 116,

An Act

to proclaim Archives Awareness Week. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Mr Bert Johnson (Perth-Middlesex): I request that the bill be referred to the standing committee on finance and economic affairs.

The Acting Speaker: Mr Johnson has asked that the bill be referred to the standing committee on finance and economic affairs. Agreed?

Agreed.

All matters relating to private members' public business having been completed, this House stands adjourned until 1:30 of the clock.

The House recessed from 1201 to 1330.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

PAYMENTS FOR LOW-INCOME CHILDREN

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough-Rouge River): This government has been working on the backs of working-class people and the poor. The government

continued to make a mockery of working-class people this week when they proposed to give $100 back for each child in households making under $35,000 a year. Tell me, now much money has this

government taken from the people of the province?

Let me just quickly reflect. When they came into power, 22% was cut from the income of the poorest people in our province, rent control was completely

dismantled and the squeegee kids were sent off the roads. The fact is that now the deathbed repentance comes. They're giving $100 to poor people, hoping they can buy these votes.

Speaking to the poor outside, they said to me, "I can see through this government. They gave away all this money before to their richest and best friends and

now are giving this token $100 hoping it is going to kick-start the economy." Can you imagine, $100 for a poor family will kick-start this economy? The people are seeing through this. This deathbed

repentance will come home to roost one of these days when we have the election and we have Dalton McGuinty and a good team of Liberals running this government.

VOLUNTEERS

Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough Centre): Several weeks ago I had the privilege of attending the Scarborough support services volunteer

recognition night. Scarborough Support Services for the Elderly Inc is a non-profit agency whose mission is to initiate and implement programs and services that improve the quality of life for the

elderly, disabled and/or chronically ill adults in their efforts to remain independent in their own homes in Scarborough. Their goals are to encourage and support the ethnic provider agencies; to

work together to allow for easy access to programs and services that will benefit their community; to work with service providers and funders to ensure that policy changes are sensitive to their

client and staff needs; and to continue to encourage corporations, schools, service clubs and religious organizations to work with agencies to maintain the volunteer spirit in the community.

The work and commitment that the volunteers have shown to this organization is simply outstanding. They help with Meals on Wheels, snow removal, grass cutting

and homemaking, just as a few of the things they do.

It's important to take the time to say thank you to these outstanding people and the outstanding service all of them have provided to my community which has

made Scarborough a better place to live, work and play.

REMEMBRANCE DAY

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-St Clair): This weekend, I know all members will be participating on Sunday in the laying of wreaths at cenotaphs

throughout Ontario as we commemorate Remembrance Day, and later today we will have an opportunity to reflect more on that.

I wanted to report to you that on Sunday I will be attending at the cenotaph in Windsor. I will be attending Branch 12, the Paul Martin branch of the Royal

Canadian Legion. I'll be laying a wreath at the Riverside branch in the great town of Riverside as well as the Colonel Poisson branch in Tecumseth. I will join with our entire community in not only

remembering those who gave their lives in World War II, but I wanted to take an opportunity today to pay tribute to the Royal Canadian Legion and all they do not only in our province but right

across the country -- a remarkable contribution in so many spheres of activity.

In our community, the list of their contributions and good works goes on and on and on, whether it be for poor kids or capital infrastructure projects. I

really think all of us should reflect on the Legion and what it does for our home communities and for the people in them.

Today I wanted to pay special tribute to the ladies' auxiliary in zone A1, the zone of the Royal Canadian Legion in the Windsor area. Ina Whitson, Esther

Robinson, Marion Kawala and a number of other ladies do just a terrific job on behalf of the ladies' auxiliary of the Royal Canadian Legion in our area. As always, I look forward to joining with

them as we remember those who gave their lives for us. I want to pay special tribute to all of them for what they do every day in our community.

DIWALI

Mr Raminder Gill (Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale): Next Wednesday, November 14, Ontario's South Asian community will celebrate Diwali, the

festival of lights. Over 1 billion people throughout the world celebrate Diwali. India, Guyana, Trinidad and Tobago, Malaysia and Fiji will also join in the festivities.

We celebrate the end of the harvest season and the Hindu New Year. In preparation for Diwali, prayers are offered to Lakshmi, the Goddess of Wealth, and to

Lord Ganesh. Lamps called deeyas are lit in every home. Sweets are prepared and shared among family and friends.

The festival marks the return of Lord Rama to his kingdom of Ayodhya after 14 years in exile. Diwali also commemorates the many triumphs of the gurus in the

proud history of the Sikh faith. As well, it marks the return of guru Hargobind Ji to the city of Amritsar after his release from captivity of the Mughal ruler Jahangir.

Diwali is a central event in the calendar of the South Asian community and a vital part of our heritage. I hope all members of this House will join in

supporting my Bill 98, proclaiming South Asian Heritage Month for the hundreds of thousands of members of my proud community.

Namaste. Happy Diwali to all.

POLICE OFFICERS

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): As Remembrance Day approaches, it is appropriate that we pause and reflect on the profound selflessness and

courage that many Canadians have demonstrated through the years in the course of their duty to preserve the rights and freedoms we enjoy. To put oneself in danger to protect our society, our laws

and our values as Canadian citizens is

an act we can never repay, but we can always remember and honour those special men and women. It is with this in mind, and in keeping with my new private

member's bill entitled the Highway Memorials for Fallen Police Officers Act, that I honour the lives of another group of heroes: our protectors, our law enforcement officials.

It is shocking that since 1903, over 200 Ontario police officers have been killed in the line of duty while working to preserve our rights, our freedoms and

our safety, police officers like Constable Joe MacDonald and Sergeant Rick McDonald, both from Sudbury, Sergeant Margaret Eve and Constable James McFadden from Chatham-Kent, Detective Constable

Bill Hancox from Toronto, Senior Police Constable Thomas Coffin from Midland, and Constable Michael Gula from Niagara Falls.

It is to honour these people and all police officers who have died while on duty that I introduced my private member's bill. I urge the Ontario government to

pass it quickly. As citizens of this great country and this wonderful province, we must never forget those police officers who have given their lives while attempting to safeguard ours. We must

never forget.

REMEMBRANCE DAY

Mrs Julia Munro (York North): It is a privilege to speak today about one of my constituents, Sutton resident Mr Ed O'Connor, a veteran of

World War II and an author. He has written a book called The Corvette Years. This is Mr O'Connor's first attempt at writing a book. He was surprised and flattered when his book was mentioned in

Pierre Berton's new book, Marching as to War.

O'Connor recalls in his book that the corvette was one of the toughest ships ever built and a difficult ship to sail in. He served aboard the HMCS Morden.

O'Connor's ship was involved in an incredible rescue effort. The liner SS Winnipeg II was torpedoed and sunk by a German submarine. The small corvette picked up 194 survivors along with the 70 crew

members. The ship was bulging at the seams. Some survivors were injured in the blast. A doctor, also a survivor, worked with those other survivors for three days without sleep. It took four days to

reach Newfoundland in a wicked gale.

The surviving shipmates still stay in touch. The last surviving corvette, the HMCS Sackville, is now a memorial in Halifax.

Sunday is Remembrance Day. I want to thank you, Ed O'Connor, a veteran who has left a legacy so that we will always remember those who served and particularly

remember those who gave their lives for their country and for our freedom.

GOVERNMENT POLICY

Mr Ernie Parsons (Prince Edward-Hastings): This is useful lesson number three for the 50 or so leadership candidates across the aisle. I would

ask that you pass my comments on to Mr Eves because he's not here.

I continue to read with fascination the Blueprint, Mike Harris's plan to keep Ontario on the right track. I do notice the tracks have been diverging a little

bit over the past couple of weeks, but nevertheless I realize that you have done a substantial number of initiatives that are great stuff that aren't in the book and I want to give you credit for

them.

You people increased the northern travel allowance. Oh, just a minute, that was Dalton McGuinty and the Ontario Liberals who caused that to happen. You only

did it because we were right.

You passed legislation about the Oak Ridges moraine. Great stuff, except that it was Dalton McGuinty and the Ontario Liberals who caused that to happen. You

only did it because you knew we were right.

You want to protect children from prostitution. Great effort, but it was Dalton McGuinty and the Ontario Liberals who initiated that bill. You did it, again,

only because we were right.

The families of the victims of OC Transpo: That happened only because Dalton McGuinty and the Ontario Liberals made you do it, because we were right. It wasn't

in the book. It wasn't your idea.

Replica guns: you laughed when a private member's bill was introduced on replica guns. You subsequently passed it because you knew we were right.

Now do the next thing: approve funding for macular degeneration, because you know we are right.

LABOUR DISPUTE

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): For almost five months now, 20 weeks, workers at Kennedy House Youth Services in Uxbridge have been locked

out by the employer, the largest maximum security jail for young offenders in this province. Today I join these workers, members of OPSEU local 361. They're here with us in the Legislature today at

a rally where they demanded that this government start to take action to bring about a fair settlement and end this lockout by the employer.

This is just one more example of what a sham this government's propaganda campaign around young offenders really is. When it comes to actually taking

responsibility for locking up dangerous young offenders, the government has privatized the operation, given away the farms and given away the store to private sector operators and then stood aside

while Kennedy House demands mind-boggling concessions and then locks out these workers.

In fact, you should know that communities across southern Ontario have been put at great risk because young offenders from this maximum security facility have

been transferred to, among other things, open security facilities.

Kennedy is still receiving its money from the province, the taxpayers are being gouged and these workers are left out to dry. All these women and men want is a

fair settlement. It's time today for the government to face up to its responsibilities. Intervene, take action and do the right thing for once.

REMEMBRANCE DAY

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): I believe that this year Remembrance Day will have a different impact on many more millions of

people around this world. It is because every Remembrance Day we talk about the great World Wars I and II, the wars since and the wars that are always continuing, particularly in the Middle East.

Now we have added to the wars the most heinous enemy ever, that being the enemy of terrorism and the terrorists who take

part in that.

I will be at the service of the Royal Canadian Legion's Branch 82 at the cenotaph in Port Credit on Sunday the 11th. It will be with great pride that I stand

there thinking about all the brave men and women who continue to sacrifice their lives in the protection of freedom and democracy. I will also be thinking about my own father, who died on February

4, 1945, just three months before the end of the war. He served in the Royal Navy out of Britain.

Then, when I come home from that service on Sunday, I will be returning to my own husband, who served for five years overseas. He was born in Prince Albert,

Saskatchewan, joined at the age of 18 and returned to Canada when he was 23. He landed in Europe on D-Day plus nine and is one of those modest veterans typical of so many with whom we uphold our

love, our pride and our gratitude.

VISITORS

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Just before we continue, I'd like to bring to the members' attention in the members' west gallery Mr Walt Elliot,

the member for Halton North in the 34th Parliament. Please join me in welcoming our former colleague.

Mr Ted McMeekin (Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough-Aldershot): I'd like to draw the members of the Legislative Assembly's attention to two special

guests from the great riding of Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough-Aldershot who are here today: Mr Don Johnson and Mr Erin Kersten. They're here on a study tour of Ontario democracy.

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE

ON ESTIMATES

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough-Rouge River): I beg leave to present the report from the standing committee on estimates.

Clerk at the Table (Mr Todd Decker): Mr Curling from the standing committee on estimates reports the following resolutions:

Resolved, that supply in the following amounts and to defray the expenses of the following ministries and offices be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year

ending March 31, 2002.

Interjection: Dispense.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Dispense. Thank you.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

INTERJURISDICTIONAL SUPPORT

ORDERS ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001

SUR LES ORDONNANCES ALIMENTAIRES

D'EXÉCUTION RÉCIPROQUE

Mr Young moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 131,

An Act to facilitate the making, recognition and variation of interjurisdictional support orders / Projet de loi 131, Loi visant à

faciliter le prononcé, la reconnaissance et la modification des ordonnances alimentaires d'exécution réciproque.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The Attorney General for a short statement?

Hon David Young (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs): Mr Speaker, with your permission, I'd prefer to make a statement

during ministers' statements period.

PEOPLE'S ACCESS

TO THE FACTS ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR L'ACCÈS

DU PUBLIC AUX FAITS

Mr Wood moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 132,

An Act to amend the Public Inquiries Act / Projet de loi 132, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les enquêtes publiques.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mr Bob Wood (London West): The

short title of this bill is People's Access to the Facts Act. It amends the Public Inquiries Act to allow any

member of the Legislative Assembly to propose a resolution to set up an inquiry into any matter that the act allows. The resolution either designates one or more persons who are to conduct the

inquiry or requires the Speaker of the Assembly or the Lieutenant Governor in council to appoint them. The assembly is required to vote on the resolution within 60 sessional days after it's

proposed.

This in effect gives the Legislature itself the same power to call inquiries as the cabinet now has. Surely this power should rest in the hands of all the

elected representatives of the people. Democracy and transparency do work.

OPTOMETRY AMENDMENT ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LES OPTOMÉTRISTES

Mr Kormos moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 133,

An Act to amend the Optometry Act, 1991 / Projet de loi 133, Loi modifiant la Loi de 1991 sur les optométristes .

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye."

All those opposed will please say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it. Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): This bill amends the Optometry Act, 1991, to allow optometrists to prescribe therapeutic pharmaceutical

agents for the treatment of certain eye diseases.

Mr David Caplan (Don Valley East): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'm very interested in the member for London West's bill. I seek unanimous

consent of the House that upon printing of the bill, it immediately be given second and third reading consideration some time when the House next meets.

The Speaker: Unanimous consent? I'm afraid I heard some noes.

VISITORS

Hon David H. Tsubouchi (Chair of the Management Board of Cabinet): I'd like to recognize in the gallery representatives of Nikkei Heritage

Day, Japanese Canadians of this province, who are here today: Grace Omoto, Betty Moritsugu and Frank Moritsugu.

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): I ask members of the House to recognize my son Erin and his lovely wife Rebecca, who are visiting from Halifax.

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Education, Government House Leader): I believe we have unanimous agreement among the House leaders to have the

order for third reading of Bill 14,

An Act to encourage awareness of the need for the early detection and treatment of brain tumours, immediately called and decided upon without further debate.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is there unanimous consent? Agreed.

BRAIN TUMOUR

AWARENESS MONTH ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LE MOIS

DE LA SENSIBILISATION

AUX TUMEURS CÉRÉBRALES

Mr Wood moved third reading of the following bill:

Bill 14,

An Act to encourage awareness of the need for the early detection and treatment of brain tumours / Projet de loi 14, Loi visant à favoriser

la sensibilisation à la nécessité du dépistage et du traitement précoces des tumeurs cérébrales.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Be it resolved that the bill do now pass and be entitled as in the motion.

Mr Bob Wood (London West): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank all members of the House for their co-operation in passing this bill. This bill

is going to save lives both here in Ontario and, I think, throughout Canada. Thank you to all.

The Speaker: I thank the member for that kind gesture.

REMEMBRANCE DAY

Hon Cameron Jackson (Minister of Citizenship, minister responsible for seniors): I believe we have unanimous consent for each party to speak

for about five minutes on Remembrance Day and then have a moment of silence.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Agreed? Agreed.

Hon Mr Jackson: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker and honourable members.

More than 80 years ago, from 1914 to 1918, our nation sent 425,000 soldiers overseas to fight in the First World War. Those Canadians -- students, brothers,

husbands and sons -- went overseas to fight for a just cause and for democratic freedoms. These young men fought in a series of costly and bloody battles, and by the end of the First World War more

than 69,000 Canadian troops had died and 172,000 were wounded. They died fighting at Vimy Ridge, Hill 70, Bourlon Wood, Mons, Passchendaele and Ypres. In that final battle, our Canadian soldiers

were exposed to German gas attacks, yet continued to fight. They showed amazing tenacity and undaunted courage in the face of this terrible peril.

Today, there are fewer than 500 Canadian veterans of the First World War still alive. This Sunday, at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month, marking

the moment in 1918 when fighting in the First World War stopped, we as Canadians are asked to pause and remember the sacrifices of those thousands of men who left their homes, their families and

their friends and died fighting for the cause of freedom.

On Sunday, let us also be extremely grateful to the more than one million men and women from Canada and Newfoundland who served in the Army, the Air Force and

the Navy in combat during the Second World War from 1939 to 1945. Let us also remember the more than 47,000 Canadian men and women who died and did not return from their battle for freedom.

Canadians lost their lives fighting in Dieppe, in Normandy, the north Atlantic, defending Hong Kong, during the liberation of Italy and many other important campaigns in the air, on the sea and on

land. This Sunday let us remember those fallen soldiers.

Let us never forget the 516 Canadian soldiers who died in the Korean War almost 50 years ago. The battles of Hill 355 and Hill 187, among others, saw Canadians

fighting through swamps and rice fields, through torrential rains and snow.

I have a deep and personal awareness of the sacrifices made by Canadian veterans. In my family, my father and four uncles signed up to serve their country in

wartime. Five went overseas and four returned. Growing up, I took immense interest in trying to understand what happened to my father and to my uncles as I listened to their stories of that war. I

remember how hard it was for me to listen to my father, knowing that he enlisted at age 17, barely half way through high school, and exposed himself to such peril at such a young age. These were

very young men and women.

For many of today's generation of young men and women, hearing first-hand accounts about the great sacrifices made by great Canadians is all too rare an

occurrence. For that reason, and thanks to the efforts of the Dominion Institute of Canada and this government's Ministry of Citizenship, over 50,000 students across Ontario over the next three

years will get the rare privilege of hearing a veteran recall in detail the hardships encountered while serving our nation overseas. Through our Memory Project these students will hear about the

battles that were fought across the oceans, about the friendships that were built in times of war and about the bittersweet joy of being able to return home when many friends and comrades did not.

It is fitting too that students should be the ones who hear these inspiring stories, as the soldiers were quite literally the same age as they are when they journeyed overseas to war.

Ultimately, many of these veterans will not be physically able to tell their stories in schools. The average age of our Second World War veterans today is 79,

and our Korean War veterans average 72 years of age.

services for veterans in Ontario. We were fortunate to work co-operatively with Veterans Affairs Canada. Our province has earmarked a total of 250 long-term-care beds as veterans' priority access

beds. This was a first for Canada and started here in Ontario. We started in northern Ontario and, because of the success of our pilot project, we expanded across Ontario. Now a total of 81

facilities have priority access beds, including 29 facilities with 100 priority access beds in northern Ontario.

Our government continues to work in partnership with Veterans Affairs Canada on behalf of Ontario veterans. Our one-stop-shopping pilot project for veterans in

London, Middlesex and Grey has resulted in better, more streamlined service for veterans, who would otherwise have to deal with a number of different departments and a number of different

governments. It's been very well received, and we want to thank Veterans Affairs Canada, which continues to work closely with the province of Ontario.

When any of us pause beside a war memorial, the names we read are representative of a silent library of lost lifetimes. Each name is a young Canadian whose

hopes and dreams were cut short by the ultimate sacrifice made on our nation's behalf.

This Sunday, once again our veterans who came home will shine their shoes, put on their medal-emblazoned blazers and go on parade in tribute to their fallen

comrades. Those who can still march do, and those who are now too frail will watch and wish they could join the ranks. Whenever the veterans march, we are filled with admiration. As a member of

Branch 60, Royal Canadian Legion, in Burlington, I will join our veterans with pride, with admiration and reverence.

We must honour our veterans' memory, we must protect the freedoms they fought and died for, and we must remember them. As a new generation, as legislators, as

protectors of our democratic heritage, we must remember the immortal words of Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae:

To you from failing hands we throw

The torch; be yours to hold it high.

If ye break faith with us who die

We shall not sleep, though poppies grow

In Flanders Fields.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): In a legislative body which, by its very nature, is partisan and often confrontational, there is an

occasion when partisanship is set aside and consensus is easily reached. That occasion is the las