April 1, 2003 GOVERNMENT SERVICES

COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Matthews): Order, please!

(Inaudible) Estimates Committee hearing for the Department of Government

Services and Lands. Before we move to introductions and into the examination of

the Estimates this evening, we need to deal with the minutes from the last

Government Services Committee meeting, and I would ask for a motion that we

accept the minutes as circulated.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: This evening we are going to deal with the Estimates of Government

Services and Lands. We are pleased to have the minister, who is going to answer

all the questions with the able assistance of his officials, some of whom I know

very well and some of whom I do not know at all but will get to know as the

evening moves forward.

Without any further ado, I will ask the Committee members to introduce

themselves and then, Minister, I would ask you to have your staff introduce

themselves. We will follow the standard format of the minister being afforded up

to fifteen minutes for introductory remarks. The Vice-Chair will then take

fifteen minutes to respond, and then we will go in time allocations of ten

minutes each. You may speak as Committee members or question the minister and

his staff as often as you wish, for as long as you wish, bearing in mind that we

normally allocate three hours for those meetings, and further bearing in mind

that if we got out in a more timely fashion, I think it would be acceptable to

at least the Chair and maybe to others who might be in the room, but we will not

rush it. We will do due diligence to our business.

Deputy Chair, if you would like to start the introductions.

MR. J. BYRNE: Jack Byrne, MHA for Cape St. Francis.

MR. FRENCH: Terry French, MHA for Conception Bay South.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA for Bay of Islands.

MS KELLY: Sandra Kelly, MHA for Gander District.

MR. McLEAN: Ernie McLean, MHA for Lake Melville.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Tom Osborne, MHA for St. John's South.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Minister.

MR. SWEENEY: George Sweeney, Minister.

To my left is Barbara Wakeham, Deputy Minister; Bill McKenzie, Assistant

Deputy Minister; Bill Parrott, Assistant Deputy Minister, Lands; Wayne Moores,

Manager of Financial Operations; and Jeff Mackey, Director of Communications.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

Okay, Minister, we will afford you up to fifteen minutes, if you want to take

that amount of time, to introduce your department's budgetary estimates, and

then we will proceed as we have indicated.

MR. SWEENEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I will begin with a brief description of the department. Government Services

and Lands consists of three separate branches: Government Services; Consumer and

Commercial Affairs; and Lands. The department has about 500 employees who

provide a wide range of services in various regions throughout the Province. We

administer more than eighty-five acts and process approximately 1.5 million

client transactions, and we generate approximately $83 million for government.

Our Government Services Branch provides accessible and efficient services to

the public and business community in the areas of public health and safety,

statistics, controlled use of land, and environmental standards enforcement. The

branch includes Government Service Centres, Vital Statistics, and Motor

Registration.

Our Consumer and Commercial Affairs Branch is responsible for ensuring that

consumer interests and commerce is facilitated. This branch includes commercial

registries, insurance and pensions, residential tenancies, securities, trade

practices and licencing, and Credit Union Deposit Guarantee Corporation.

Our Lands Branch manages the Province's Crown land, which is 95 per cent of

the Province. It processes applications to acquire or use Crown Lands, archives,

Crown title documents, and distributes maps and land related information. The

branch includes: Crown Lands, Land Management, and Surveys and Mapping.

Our department has a wide range of duties and responsibilities. I believe we

do a good job, and we are constantly endeavoring to do more, particularly in

improving consumer protection and awareness. We believe that collaboration and

consultation are important for providing services. We make every effort to work

in partnership with our internal and external clients, and try to find new and

more effective ways to carry out our responsibilities and serve the citizens of

our Province.

I would like to highlight a few of the current initiatives in the department

by branch, beginning with Government Services. As you all know, this winter the

Town of Badger experienced severe flooding caused by ice on three conversing

rivers.

Officials from the Government Services Branch were on site with emergency

measures officials from day one to assess the situation. During the various

phases of the emergency and now the clean up, departmental officials have been

at the site. This department had the responsibility to inspect domestic and

recreation vehicle and other fuel tanks in the community. These inspections and

assessments were often done in poor working conditions. The inspectors should be

commended for the work that they have done.

Last year the Government Services Branch hired seven additional environmental

health officers to test water quality in public water supplies. These officers

are certified inspectors who take samples from the tap end of the supply. We

hired six Newfoundland students last summer who had been studying environmental

health at the University College of Cape Breton. All six, I am pleased to say,

are employed now with us as environmental health officers.

Last year we switched almost all lab testing to public health labs in

hospitals instead of by our staff in office labs in the field. This has enabled

our inspectors to take additional samples throughout the Province rather than

spending time in the lab. This increase in funding to hire the environmental

health officers is part of the government's larger effort to ensure continued

safe drinking water throughout the Province in concert with Health and Community

Services, Environment, and Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Each of these

departments had also received budget increases to deal with water quality issues

in last year's budget.

Our Government Services Branch acts on behalf of the Department of

Environment with respect to spill response situations. We have eleven

environmental protection officers deployed throughout the Province to respond to

these situations. These staff monitor, on a rotating shift basis, the Canadian

Coast Guard environmental emergency line twenty-four hours a day, seven days a

week. Because some feel that the government should be cleaning up spills, I

think it is important to note that the polluter pays for the cleanup of spills

and not the taxpayer. No one may pollute with impunity.

We have recently placed two staff persons to take care of the used oil

recycling program which became law today, April 1. These staff are situated in

St. John's and Corner Brook and will be responsible for implementing the

program, along with the Multi-Materials Stewardship Board and the Department of

Environment.

The Motor Vehicle Registration division's e-commerce application for motor

vehicle registration renewals now handles over 10 per cent of all vehicle

renewals via the Internet. We are in the process of setting up a similar

Internet-based application allowing vehicle dealers to register their sales

directly with Motor Registration.

criminal code to increase the federal period of prohibition from driving for

impaired offenders. In addition, the criminal code now permits judges to include

provisions for reduction of the prohibition periods where iginition interlock

programs are present in a province's legislation. Many jurisdictions have also

implemented some severe penalties for repeat offenders and introduced vehicle

impoundment for drivers found driving in violation of a suspension.

In response to the federal changes a committee was established to review

existing penalties for persons convicted of alcohol offences. This committee

consists of representatives from safety, government and police groups. Their

mandate was to review and propose options in five major areas of driver

management as follows: driver licence suspension periods; administration

suspensions; education, assessment and treatment; vehicle seizure or

impoundment; and interlock devices. These areas represent the major issues

impacting persons convicted of alcohol related offences and also represent areas

that other jurisdictions have focused attention on in the past several years to

reduce impaired driving.

Last year a bill was put before the Legislature to amend the Highway Traffic

Act to incorporate changes recommended by this committee to increase suspension

periods, introduce an ignition interlock pilot project, and provide for vehicle

seizure and impoundment. This legislation would make our laws among the toughest

in the country. Regulations are currently drafted and shall be completed soon.

This week a ban came into effect to eliminate the use of hand-held cellphones

while driving. We have researched the use of cellphones by drivers, reviewed

legislative initiative elsewhere and acted in the interest of the public. There

are limits on human concentration and a drivers use of a hand-held cellphone for

dialing and talking results in less attention being paid to driving. We have

only banned hand-held cellphones at this time, but we, in no way, have advocated

the use of hands-free. The safest alternative is to pull over to make and

receive calls, or wait until reaching a destination to make calls. I think I

have gone through this so often in the past few days now, I am doing it from

memory.

I would like to move on to initiatives such as the Consumer and Commercial

Affairs Branch. Following a period of consultation, the department issued a

consultation paper on Automobile Insurance Reform in the fall of 2001. This

paper contained fifty-one proposals which would reform insurance for the benefit

of the consumer. Officials in the department then analyzed these proposals and

we drafted Bill 28 for the House of Assembly last fall. The bill did not pass

during that session of the House, and died on the Order Paper last month. There

are many good initiatives contained in Bill 28. Many of the changes are meant to

make insurance companies more accountable to policyholders and the government.

One example, to which many of us can relate, is the driver who lapses their

insurance. As it currently stands, a driver who gives up their insurance for a

period of time and tries to get covered must begin as a first-time driver paying

very high rates. The legislation would allow government to intervene in this

case.

Last year government also passed a bill which allowed for the appointment of

an advocate to represent consumers' interests at public utility board

automobile insurance rate hearings. This is another of the proposals contained

in the consultation. During the consultation process consumers sent us a clear

message. They did not think that their interests were being fully considered by

the parties involved and many indicated a clear mistrust in the overall

automobile insurance rate setting process. Government heard these concerns and

they responded to them. Both New Brunswick and Nova Scotia are presently in the

consultation processes and many of the issues of Bill 28 are reflected in these

consultations. Our department has made a commitment to do more in the area of

public education. We hired an educational coordinator to develop consumer

education programs for insurance and other financial areas such as: investments,

pensions, real estate, and prepaid funerals. Also, additional funding has been

provided for the development, printing and promoting of consumer education

material.

Last year's budget provided for a new financial examiner for a securities

commission to provide enhanced monitoring of activities in this area. It is

necessary because more and more consumers are investing in mutual funds, the

stock markets and educational funds. We found out there are approximately 5,000

registrants selling securities in this Province.

On another consumer issue, I have continued to explore high credit card

interest rates. The previous minister had written to the federal minister

responsible for consumer affairs asking for action to be taken on exorbitant

credit card interest rates, and I intend to carry that issue forward again in

the next few months. Considering the fact that interest rates are still at

historically low levels, rates charged on some credit cards seem to be

excessively high. Given the reluctance by card issuers to lower the rates, the

federal government must review this matter to determine how consumers might be

better protected.

April is Financial Awareness Month. Our department has many activities

planned for this year, which include a Web site. We are having an educational

display to be erected in shopping malls starting soon and other projects as

well. This project is undertaken in partnership with the North American

Securities Administrators Association and the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of St.

John's. Financial literacy is essential to the financial stability of all

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. We want to ensure citizens are in a position

to make well-informed, educated decisions about where and how they invest and

manage their personal outcomes.

Finally, last but not least, a quick look at our Lands Branch. The Lands

Branch has successfully implemented phase one for provincial-wide application

processing and a Crown titles registry system. The new system has enhanced

decision-making and provides access to all land applications entitle data at all

regional offices. Previously, only regional information on application was

available in a given area. To expand on this process, this year we will be

linking the applicant and titles data basis to our GIS electronic maps and

creating an application layer. When completed, a client will be able to visit

any of our Lands offices to view the land title and the application maps of any

location in the Province. The computerization of the land use atlas, which is

twenty-one layers of land use data, and our ongoing scanning of Crown documents

will further enhance the management of the Crown land resource and the service

quality to our clients at all our offices.

A number of cost-sharing projects have recently been completed with the

federal government GeoConnections program. One was the collection and

interdepartmental distribution of administration boundary data. A second project

has enhanced the integration of mapping data within government. My officials are

currently exploring new opportunities for partnering with the federal government

to further enhance the integration of the Province's mapping data sets. All

federal maps at the scale of 1 to 50,000, and 1 to 250,000, have been converted

to digital format and are made available throughout government on a single data

server. This has eliminated tremendous duplication and the maps will soon be

available for public viewing on the Internet. Cost-sharing projects with

municipalities and public utilities are ongoing to replace outdated maps and

create new maps. Approximately 150 map sheets are added to provincial inventory

per year. New projects this year will be in the Bay of Islands and Northeast

Avalon.

In the field of Land Management, my officials continue the development of

area plans to facilitate the orderly development of cottage developments in

conjunction with other government resource management departments and the pulp

and paper industry.

Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, thank you very much for this

opportunity. I welcome any suggestions or questions that you might have.

CHAIR: Thank you.

I will now call head 1.1.01 and we will commence the debate. I would remind

all members participating in the committee, and from the minister's staff, I

think it is necessary to identify yourselves each time you are speaking for

purposes of the recording process.

Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

First of all, I would like to congratulate the minister on his recent

appointment as Minister of Government Services and Lands. Just for your own

information, it is a department that I worked with for seven years a few years

ago. As a matter of fact, I worked with Bill Parrott many moons ago. I am going

to ask a few questions with respect to your comments and then maybe get into the

actual numbers themselves in the Estimates.

With respect to the cellphone legislation that was first implemented today, I

am just wondering: Are there any negotiations or talks with the insurance

companies to see - in the future would the insurance rates actually drop because

of the - should be - reduced number of accidents related to cellphones?

MR. SWEENEY: I have spent the past month meeting with insurance

companies. It has been, pretty well, an open line of communication between the

department and, I think, every insurance broker and provider in the country, and

meetings are still ongoing. As this is day one, we are hoping to see some notes

with results. So, there is potential, we hope, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the comment on hands-free, you said: the

department is not advocating the use of hands-free cellphones. I am just

wondering, how far could we go with something like this? I have a hands-free, I

have been using it for the past year or so actually. It is voice activated. I

just say home or office, whatever the case may be, and the number will ring for

me. But to talk about barring hands-free, I mean, that is probably not as

distractive as having someone sitting in the car next to you and talking back

and forth to the individual, or you had a cup of coffee on your lap, or whatever

the case may be. I do not know if the department is actually considering barring

hands-free?

MR. SWEENEY: At this point in time there is no desire to ban hands-free.

There have been a number of questions raised in the past few days, as you might

be well aware. As somebody said to me yesterday: Well, what is the difference

between a cellphone to your ear or a cup of coffee? Well, chances are, going to

work or going for groceries, or going somewhere, you might only have one cup of

coffee but using the cellphone, you might make twenty calls. Each time you reach

for that phone and start dialing, obviously, it is more of a distraction.

Hopefully, we will deter from that.

MR. J. BYRNE: When you mention motor vehicle registration, is there any

consideration given - and I thought I heard somebody say some time ago - with

respect to bringing back motor vehicle inspections? It was cut out a few years

ago. I am just wondering, are there any talks of reimplementing motor vehicle

inspections on vehicles over two, three or four years old, whatever the case may

be, for licencing?

MR. SWEENEY: No, not really. I think you have to keep something in mind,

that motor vehicle inspections have never been done away with. They have never

been eliminated. Every time there is a transaction between a garage or a

personal sale, vehicles are inspected.

MR. J. BYRNE: If I had a car and had it for four or five years, then car

is getting older. That is what I am thinking about, because garages, if they are

selling you a car, for their own protection they are going to have inspections

done anyway.

MR. SWEENEY: And the same argument would apply, if you own a car that is

four or five years old you would make sure it was maintained and in good running

condition.

MR. J. BYRNE: Most people would, but there are a lot of people don't, I

would say.

Another point with respect to motor vehicle registration and insurance

companies. We know - and you mentioned in your lead in - that some people will

get their insurance to get their licence, and then cancel their insurance after.

Are there any negotiations going on between the insurance companies and Motor

Vehicle Registration that once that person cancels their insurance it is

automatically put into the Motor Registration Division so their licence will be

also cancelled?

MR. SWEENEY: At present there is no system in place, as there are in most

provinces, but we are trying to come up with a reasonably price solution to it.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what I was going to ask you next. Are there any

costs done up on this, any costing?

MR. SWEENEY: Barb.

MS WAKEHAM: Ontario has a pilot project out now with the insurance

companies so that when insurance lapses they can do the registration with their

motor vehicle registration. That pilot is still ongoing. We are waiting to see

what the results of that are. Depending on what the cost implications are, then

we will look at that kind of a system for application here. Right now we have

nothing in place, but there is one province actually doing a pilot.

MR. J. BYRNE: We will let someone create the wheel first.

MS WAKEHAM: Ontario has a heck of a lot more money than we do.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am not saying we should not. I am just saying probably a

smart thing to do is let them do it first and have a look at what they did.

MS WAKEHAM: Yes, and we are in constant contact with them in regard to

their pilot.

MR. J. BYRNE: You also mentioned seven additional water inspectors. Is

seven sufficient to handle the workload within the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador, or do we need more?

MR. McKENZIE: With the seven, that now gives us thirty-six positions.

Beyond water, they are also doing the food establishment inspections, septic

systems and so on. With the addition of the seven, now to thirty-six, we are

pretty well meeting the Canadian guidelines of sampling. We needed those

additional seven, but we are pretty well there now.

MR. J. BYRNE: With the geography of the Province and the way the

population is spread out, would there be more inspectors in the urban areas

than, for example, a more rural area? I am just thinking about the travel time

or what have you.

MR. McKENZIE: There are nine inspectors in St. John's; four in Harbour

Grace; three in Clarenville; one in Marystown; one in Grand Bank; three in

Gander; three in Grand Falls; one in Lewisporte; one in Springdale, St. Anthony,

Rocky Harbour; three in Corner Brook; two in Stephenville; one in Port aux

Basques, and two in Goose Bay.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, that is (inaudible).

MR. McKENZIE: We cover it all, yes. As I say, because we are doing things

like food establishments we are doing a lot in St. John's, Harbour Grace and

the Northeast Avalon.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the food establishments, probably two or

three years ago - I think the Auditor General addressed that in her report - the

food inspections of all the different restaurants and that. There were some

serious - what is the right word? - I will not say breaches, but there certainly

were not enough inspections being done because they just did not have the staff

to do it. Has that improved to an acceptable standard now do you think?

MR. McKENZIE: Yes, I think we are pretty well there. We are supposed to

do - up until this new year - one a year, no matter what the establishment. We

are doing this on behalf of the Department of Health. They have shifted to a

risk-based approach now. Something like a convenience store might only get

inspected every two years,

whereas a place like Hotel Newfoundland might be

quarterly or so on. With the additional staff we are pretty well up to speed on

that as well.

MR. J. BYRNE: That kind of leads me - I am jumping around a bit, I know,

but I am just going through a few jot notes when you were speaking. You talked

about the spill response. Something came to my mind when you spoke of that, and

that was the spill up in Gros Morne probably two or three summers ago. It went

out into the ocean and you had to put in berm and all of this. That was cleaned

up. Has that been followed up on and is everything fine there now?

MR. McKENZIE: I have not heard anything recently on it. I think where it

was essentially federal land, federal officials and Parks Canada handled that

and did an excellent cleanup from what I understand, but I have not heard

anything recently on it.

MR. J. BYRNE: It was there for some time.

MR. McKENZIE: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to Crown Land, how many applications do you

get a year now in Crown Lands and how many will be actually processed per year?

MR. PARROTT: We get approximately 3,500 applications a year. All those

applications are processed to various stages. Because of the nature they come in

throughout the year, some of them are finalized in that year and others are in

various stages of processing. We have a turnaround rate of - as an application

comes in, we try to have it screened and registered within a week to ten days.

MR. J. BYRNE: Registered and then it has to be processed, the title

prepared and sent out and what have you?

MR. PARROTT: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: What is the normal time frame for that these days?

MR. PARROTT: I believe the normal time frame now within the department is

forty days, but that can stretch out. There is a time frame for referral

throughout the various government departments tacked onto that. The applicant

has a year to get it surveyed. That can be extended out to another year on

request. There could be difficulties in the survey or in the boundaries, or

things like that. Each individual application is on its own merits, but the

standard average is we try to have it processed within thirty to forty days.

MR. J. BYRNE: You also mentioned maps and documents being put on the net

and having access through the Internet. How far along are you on that? I know

the Registry of Deeds falls under the Department of Justice. I have often

questioned before with respect to combining the Registry of Deeds and Crown

Lands Registry and having access to it all without having to come in and

actually do the search in here. How far along are we on that?

MR. SWEENEY: We have a registry in deeds now.

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, I did not realize that. When did this happen?

MS WAKEHAM: Since 1996.

MR. J. BYRNE: That long ago! Where have I been? In the meantime -

WITNESS: It is only you who can answer that question.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have not been at the surveying since then.

Can engineering companies, surveying companies, law firms, or whatever the

case may be, go into the net and do their searching outside, say from their

office, versus having to come into the building and do it?

MR. PARROTT: For Crown Lands or the Registry of Deeds, the answer is no.

In the Crown Lands Registry we have computerized all of the data basis on the

information on the title documents. We have also computerized the base maps.

Those are available now at five regional offices throughout the Province. So we

are probably a little bit farther along than the Registry of Deeds that is

available throughout the Province. The next step is to upload this information

into the Internet so anybody would be able to access it. It is a very expensive

process - the fire walls, the securities, vulnerabilities. The minister referred

to in his opening remarks, we are in the process now of scanning the documents,

the actual grants, leases and licences. These will be tied into the maps so you

will be able to view both. This will be at the regional offices of course first

and then throughout government.

MR. J. BYRNE: What kind of dollars are we talking about to do that, to

get it up and running so people outside the building could actually have access?

I know there will probably be a fee charge (inaudible).

MR. PARROTT: We have not gone as far as to look at the Internet because

you are looking at security assessments, et cetera. I believe the security

assessments and things like that are probably in the $50,000 to $60,000 range,

but you have to have the documents scanned, which we are doing. So much is being

done in-house and so much would be done on contracts, depending on availability.

All the work in creating GIS was done in-house by our own people - highly

skilled people, I might add - to put together the program they have. Of course

everything is being done with a view to making it accessible throughout the

Province.

MS WAKEHAM: I will answer the question on the Registry of Deeds, because

we are much further behind on that. We have just finished doing the sculpting

analysis for a new custom made computer system for deeds and we will start that

process within the next month or so, and hopefully we will be having

registration of deeds on-line come next April or May.

MR. J. BYRNE: I can see that, but there must be a tremendous amount of

workload dollars to go to Registry of Deeds down here and get all the deeds that

go back to whenever, hundreds of years back, and actually scan them, or whatever

way you would do it, and put them into the system. Has there been any cost done

on that, what it would actually cost to do that, or would you plan to do it

in-house through, say, Crown Lands, or something?

MS WAKEHAM: No, it would be doing their own system. Certainly we are

looking at, downstream, having the two system, two registries, interconnected.

Now, whether or not they use the same system or they use a linking mechanism, so

that you can just hit a folder and hit the Crown titles data, that is another

thing.

Basically, what we are doing with the deeds and the companies, because both

systems are going to be upgraded, is that we are working out a deal the same way

we worked out a deal with the personal property securities where we had the

company do the thing up front and we just paid off, amortized it, through the

revenue stream over a period of years. So, we will be doing the same thing. I

did not bring the figures with me for the actual cost for the deeds and

companies but it has been costed out and the process is going ahead.

MR. J. BYRNE: So progress is being made.

MS WAKEHAM: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Just one other thing from your lead-in was the credit card

interest rates. I do not know if there is anybody who has a credit card who

would not be concerned on this issue - and even the banks. The services fees and

the charges that the banks are charging, it is getting to be scandalous and

ridiculous. What do you expect could be done with respect to the interest rates?

You would really think they would come down. What are they charging now, 18 per

cent, 20 per cent, maybe?

MR. SWEENEY: Depending on which card you have, I think some of them go up

to 18.75 per cent and even beyond that, but there are some that you will get an

envelope in the mail offering you a 4.35 per cent or 4.75 per cent six-month

special discount, but that is only to get you over to their card and you are

back in the same boat again.

It is a major problem for consumers. A lot of people, especially those who

are, I guess, caught or victimized by credit cards - I say victimized because

everybody loves to have their credit card and if you do not control it on a

month-by-month basis.

I guess one of the things that we can do in an effort to lobby the banks and

the financial agencies to get their rates down, and the federal minister to help

us, is probably spend some of our advertising budget on consumer awareness and

the education program.

MR. J. BYRNE: When you mentioned that, though, I got the impression, for

some reason or other, that you would look to the federal government to possibly

- I do not know if this could even be done because you are treading on dangerous

ground here, in my mind, because you are talking about -

MR. SWEENEY: Regulating it.

MR. J. BYRNE: No, setting rates at a maximum above - you know, if they

are giving you 2 per cent or 3 per cent for your money, and then they are

charging, like, 18 per cent for their money, I mean there would be a maximum,

like it would be double or triple type of thing. Would you expect government to

actually bring in legislation to control that?

MR. SWEENEY: I am not sure you can, really -

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what I am saying to you.

MR. SWEENEY: - because, you know, what you are doing is you take - it is

not forced upon you. You are entering into a contract or an agreement with

somebody and it is your choice as to what rate you take. I think the biggest

problem with that is just getting into recognition that the rates are high and

ask the federal minister to look at lobbying with some of the financial

institutions. That is about as far as we can probably go with it.

MS WAKEHAM: The Consumer Measures Committee, which is a committee that is

set up under the ministers for consumer affairs has been looking at the credit

card issue for about eighteen months now. Industry Canada, who is the federal

partner with respect to consumer protection, is dealing with these issues like

the issues of disclosure for credit.

What we are doing right now is just that they have set up four or five

education modules, they have put them on the Net, so that what we are trying to

do is, we are trying to get the young kids starting off just to inform them of

just what kinds of problems they can run into if they do not have full

disclosure of what the costs are going to be in terms of getting that credit

card and how to use it in a fiscally responsible manner, so we are doing that.

We are also doing a new cost of credit disclosure, so that will force the

companies to give all the hidden information because a lot of people do not

understand.

We have some places like Canadian Tire that actually have an interest rate of

35 per cent, not 18 per cent, not 24 per cent, 35 per cent on their cards and a

lot of people are not aware because there is no disclosure requirements. So we

are working on the disclosure part. We cannot regulate how much money you charge

for a service, but we can make sure that the companies give full disclosure with

respect to the cost incurred by using that card. So that is where the emphasis

has been for the ministers of consumer affairs for the last year. We will have

cost of credit disclosure legislation coming in probably the fall.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the banks and the rates and the credit

cards, whatever the case may be, I think that something has to be done with the

services fees and charges. What they are doing is bordering on criminal in my

mind.

MS WAKEHAM: It is atrocious.

MR. J. BYRNE: I will give you an example. I have a son in university. He

went away to university a few years ago, and we opened an account for him so

that he could transfer back money through the Net type of thing, convenient. He

is here now going to MUN - tying to keep it as minimum as I can type of thing -

and not long ago he went over, you know, overdraft. If you go over $5, they

charge you $5. I saw this, so, of course, I balanced it out for him and then a

week after on the thing they charged nine cents for the overdraft interest, went

into the overdraft by nine cents, and they charged $5 for the nine cents. I

mean, that is ridiculous, that is disgusting.

MS WAKEHAM: It is just as disgusting with the automated tellers where

they are charging you $2.50 for a transaction on a $20 bill. Your daughter or

your son - I have my kids taking money out of the things, too, and it is a real

problem, but the thing is that most of the people do not understand. They have

not been told what all the hidden fees are associated with different

transactions. That is where we are trying to educated the people. Ask a

question. Ask the bank when you do something: What is it going to cost me if I

do this? That is where we have to get the people - because if the people start

understanding what the actual costs are, they will stop using those services and

that will force the banks to come down.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am okay for now before I get into the actual Estimates,

if somebody else wanted to -

CHAIR: Okay, we will take another intervention, but you can see why

Canadian Tire can give away all of that money - 35 per cent.

Terry?

MR. FRENCH: I Just have a couple of questions, actually, not pertaining

to the actual numbers. I was just fortunate enough to have 500 litres of fuel

delivered to my basement floor, so I have a couple of questions on oil spills.

The minute that the environment is notified of a spill, such as happened at

my house, who would be responsible to clean it up? Would you guys insist that

someone come immediately?

MR. McKENZIE: This was in your basement, Terry?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. McKENZIE: A line broke or something?

MR. FRENCH: No, no, it was just an overfill of a tank.

MR. McKENZIE: Of 500 litres?

MR. FRENCH: Five hundred litres, a great spill.

MR. McKENZIE: The obligation is clearly on them to have it cleaned up

instantly. I would assume a reputable company would not even need any urging to

do that, they would instantly take it upon themselves to clean it up.

MR. FRENCH: The thing about it is, of course, as you know, a lot of the

oil companies now have distributors. Then the oil company says the distributor

should be responsible, and the distributor says, well, somebody was supposed to

have this taken out of there, and the oil company says, we were supposed to do

it but it is still the distributor's fault because they should not have done

it, they have been coming here for four years. In a case like that, basically

what happened, it took a couple of days for anybody to kick in here. I kicked

in, of course, immediately, but I noticed it did not seem like Environment was

notified immediately. The guys were great, by the way, but I just figured they

would have an action plan to act instantly or force someone to act instantly.

MR. McKENZIE: It is hard to just instantly force. I do not know if they

have the right to just instantly sort of insist that you or the distributor or

the fuel company pay the money. One assumes in those cases, I say, that one of

them, the distributor or the fuel company, would have just recognized their

responsibility or, if there were a dispute, one of them would have done it and

would have sorted out the responsibility and the expense afterwards.

While they have certain powers after the fact, right on that spot it is hard

for them to say: You spend the money, you clean it up, if there is some dispute

as to whom the responsible party is. It is the responsible party who is

responsible for cleaning it up.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Do the officials keep an eye on it? Even though they have been notified

instantly, I have not had a big lot of contact with them, just to ask them the

process and when they become involved. Basically, I assume that they wait until

they get a report from an environmental engineer.

MR. McKENZIE: Yes, when it is in a basement like that, I do not know if

they would even make another trip back, Terry, because they would assume the

homeowner is on top of it and it would be done that way.

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. McKENZIE: If it is outdoors, no man's land and so on, they are more

likely to try to keep an eye on it.

MR. FRENCH: In the case where there is a homeowner who is having problems

with a company, and they believe they are at stake and so on, could they come to

you guys and have your officials contact oil companies on their behalf?

MR. McKENZIE: Yes, we would do that just to see, in terms of who might

have been responsible for a given spill.

MR. FRENCH: And insist that - if it wasn't cleaned up, you wouldn't

partake in the actual cleanup and bill somebody for it down the road, would you?

MR. McKENZIE: No, but if they are reluctant, yes. Ultimately, we would

get a ministerial order against them saying: You clean this up.

Then, if within a certain time period of thirty days they did not, they are

open for prosecution.

MR. FRENCH: I am fortunate enough that the cleanup is started and so on.

I have often wondered, because of that delay, and I am sure there are a lot of

other people who - I thought about an elderly couple who could be in that very

same boat. Would they have aggressively pursued it or would they have just left

it? If they would have, your department would have intervened after some time?

MR. McKENZIE: Yes, we would have gone and forced a cleanup. The only

issue in the situation you described seemed to be the dispute as to whether it

was the distributor or the fuel company which might have slowed it down.

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. McKENZIE: If it was absolutely clear-cut, if they were one and the

same company, then clearly it would have been that company's fault instantly.

On the spot we could have issued an order in that case.

MR. FRENCH: Just to change the topic a little bit. On the cellphone

legislation, are you going to do an advertising campaign now or will it be done

broadly throughout the Province, through the networks throughout the Province?

MR. SWEENEY: Terry, I know you have been tied up with your oil spill but

we have a pretty good campaign going. It has been in the papers for a couple of

weeks now, and through some radio ads, that sort of thing. I think the best

advertising we have had has been from the news channels. They have hit every

major news station or news hour that is in the Province.

MR. FRENCH: Is that done in-house or is that somebody else, a company

outside?

MR. SWEENEY: No, in-house.

MS WAKEHAM: We have done it.

MR. FRENCH: It is all done in-house.

MR. SWEENEY: All of it was in the vicinity of $20,000.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, and it all comes out of the advertising budget?

MR. SWEENEY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: The only other thing I was going to ask - this came up this

morning - in your department, do you guys have political staff or just staff at

the Minister's Office? Basically, I would like to know a number of how many

political staff you have in the department.

MR. SWEENEY: I have an executive assistant and a secretary.

MR. FRENCH: So there would be two political staff, there would be none

within the department?

MR. SWEENEY: No.

MR. FRENCH: Fine, thank you.

MR. SWEENEY: Now there is a departmental minister's secretary who is

there.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, okay.

MR. SWEENEY: She has been there for twenty-something years.

MR. FRENCH: That would be political -

MR. SWEENEY: I have two people.

CHAIR: Thank you, Terry.

Probably we will just rotate right through to get anybody else who might want

to intervene.

Ernie.

MR. McLEAN: I have a couple of questions. I think they probably know what

I am going to ask.

CHAIR: Really? You have an unfair advantage though.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, I agree, but I have to congratulate the minister on

being appointed to the ministry. He has a great group to work with because I

worked with them for awhile.

I just want to ask a question. On the Estimates it indicates there are five

regional manager positions that you accounted for in the Salary brackets. I was

just wondering if one of those was Goose Bay?

MR. SWEENEY: Bill, would you like to answer that one, or Barb?

MS WAKEHAM: Mr. McLean is referring to the position for Labrador. We have

a director's position there. We have also gone to Treasury Board and asked for

an increase in our salary vote to be able to put that position in place. We have

not received a favourable response from Treasury Board at this point and time.

Mr. McLean is aware that - I think there have been at least a dozen overtures

made to try and get the dollars necessary to put this position in place. We are

doing the best we can to cover off the requirements for Labrador without the

position. We do have Rick Curran - I always get Curran and Conway mixed up. We

have one in Central and one out in Corner Brook. We have put additional some

staff - we had a change of staff in Labrador. We now have two positions; one is

on maternity leave. We have just filled the EPO position and the EHO position,

which is this week.

WITNESS: And the electrical next week.

MS WAKEHAM: And the electrical next week. While we do not have the

director there, we do have able staff to take care of most of the activities. We

will continue pursuing Treasury Board, but we have not managed to do it yet.

MR. McLEAN: I have to get it on the record that I am really fighting for

it because I think it is a very necessary position with the issues which are

always arising in that area. The management of that particular office should

really take place out of there. So I will leave that one.

The highway enforcement officers, you have identified fifteen. Is that an

extra one for the southern highway that has just been built? We were looking at

one position for -

MR. McKENZIE: I do not think we have advertised for that one yet, Mr.

McLean.

MR. McLEAN: Does that fifteen include - because it is your salary.

MR. McKENZIE: I do not think it does, no. I would have to check on that

one, I am not sure.

MR. McLEAN: So it will be a position that will not be filled this year,

in this year's Budget?

MR. McKENZIE: I do not think it is there, but you will have to forgive

me. I will have to check to see whether that was one of the fifteen, the

Southern Labrador one.

MR. McLEAN: Okay, thank you.

MR. SWEENEY: I will certainly (inaudible) any time, whenever you want to.

My first day in the office, the first person who comes in through is Ernie.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you, Ernie.

Tom.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have just a couple of general questions and then we will refer back to the

Vice-Chair for some of the number crunching to start.

Talking about homeowners insurance - and this issue came up in an earlier

Estimates meeting today with Housing, actually. There are a number of instances,

especially in the older part of the city and probably older homes throughout the

Province, where homeowners insurance is being discontinued by the insurance

companies for a variety of reasons. Either they are cancelling it because their

oil tank was installed six years ago, and even though it is a perfectly good

tank, it does not fall under the current regulations. Even though the homeowner

does not have to replace it immediately, according to the new regulations the

insurance companies are cancelling their insurance, which is very unfortunate.

There are other cases where the insurance company will come in and inspect

and because they are living in a twenty-five or thirty year-old house and their

electrical is no longer considered up to code, even though it is still perfectly

good, they are cancelling it unless they bring their electrical up to code. Some

of these homeowners have not had any claims against their insurance. Is your

department planning to take any action to try and address this situation?

MR. SWEENEY: We have already discussed that with the carriers, and

discussions are still underway. I think, for the most part - and Barb you can

probably correct me - but there are people receiving insurance in the downtown

area. It is a matter of shopping around.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Yes, but what is happening is somebody who has had

insurance, which is a high rate anyway - I know on my own home I am only paying

a couple of hundred dollars for home insurance. In the downtown area, because

homes are attached - or even homes in an older neighbourhood, a thirty-year old

neighbourhood - in some cases it is happening, where they are paying $400 or

$500 now, when they are cancelled by one company, what is happening is they shop

around and can get insurance now at $1,200 a year. So they are paying three

times as much. The same company that cancelled Mr. Jones is picking up a

customer just around the corner from him and charging him $1,200. It seems to me

like there is collusion within the industry.

MR. WAKEHAM: I do not think it is a matter of collusion within the

industry. It is certainly nothing that - and we have done a lot of work with the

insurance companies on this. One of the biggest problems we have with homeowners'

policies is that it is not mandatory. Home insurance is not mandatory. It is not

like automobile insurance where everybody has to have it. You will find that

there are a lot of people, especially out around, who just do not carry any home

insurance.

The insurance companies establish their price or their premium for the policy

based on the risks. We have no ability to regulate. We have nothing within our

guidelines within the insurance act that regulates home insurance policies

because they are not mandatory, therefore we cannot regulate them. There has

never been, to my mind, and nowhere in North America that I am aware of, where

there is mandatory home insurance policies. Basically, the insurance companies

can determine what the risks are. If they say the risk increases threefold

because you are in an attached house in a downtown area where there are older

homes and the potential for fire is greater, then they can assess a much higher

rate for that premium.

We have talked to the insurance companies. A lot of the insurance companies

got this, even to the point where a lot of people cannot even get insurance, no

matter how much they pay for it. We have been working on the problem of, at

least, making sure that if somebody has a house that they can get insurance even

if they have to pay a higher premium. We have enough of a fight right now trying

to make sure that we can even get people who want insurance to be able to get

insurance where they were in a high risk category. Because it is not mandatory,

we do not regulate it. All we can do is keep working on the insurance companies.

Unlike the automobile, where we can put underwriting guidelines in and say:

you can't discriminate on age or you can't discriminate on your vehicle, or

if you have had a lapsed premium or for whatever. We cannot do that with

homeowners policies because we do not regulate it.

CHAIR: Thank you, Tom.

Jack.

Now that we have gone around once I will recognize anybody who indicates they

would like to intervene.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

As you were speaking, it popped in my mind - I should have asked it earlier

actually. With respect to inspections, some time ago there was a story in The

Telegram concerning buses, bus inspections, the life span, basically, and

that some buses, school buses in particular, that some companies go to the

mainland and buy buses that are probably ten years old, that are not allowed to

be used in other provinces, and bring them back here. It seemed like the

industry was complaining with respect to not enough inspections and/or the buses

themselves that are being permitted to be used here in the Province. Is there

anything on that? Would you like to elaborate on that?

MR. McKENZIE: The regulations require them to be inspected twice per

year, and they are met. We never slack on that one. Each bus is inspected twice

per year. Other deficiencies occur between those six month periods, I suppose,

but they do get their twice-a-year inspections.

MR. J. BYRNE: The inspections, now that you mentioned that, apparently

there are a lot of problems with the brakes and the mechanical systems

themselves within the buses within that six month period. A lot of the buses -

as many as 25 per cent of the buses - are taken off the road when you do

inspections, so that means these buses have to be transporting people and/or

children, younger individuals, and are not safe to be on the roads. Has there

been any thought given to, as they do in other provinces, say, if a bus is

beyond a certain age it is out of the system?

MR. McKENZIE: I do not know if we have looked at it to that degree of the

age of the bus, but with respect to those deficiencies we take them off for

almost anything - turn signals and so on - it is not necessarily brakes and so

on.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I know that.

MR. McKENZIE: I took some comfort in the news story in that we were

catching all of these deficiencies and were taking them off the road. It would

nice if they were perfect, and we never caught them because there were no

deficiencies, but at least we were catching them at the time.

Generally, I think they are in good condition. After thirteen years they have

to come off the road. It is this gap between - in some provinces it is nine or

ten years and our thirteen year maximum is what the news story was concentrating

on.

MR. J. BYRNE: The industry out there are saying - again, this is not your

department, it is the Department of Education and/or, I suppose, the school

boards themselves - that if they would put out contracts like two or three year

contracts versus every year they could go out and get decent equipment. I think

this is something that needs to be looked at for the safety - especially of the

school buses - of the children in the Province. I know that is not an issue, but

if there were a limit put on the buses, the age, I think in combination with the

contracts, well then something could be done. Maybe your department and the

Department of Education should get together and work something out on that.

MR. McKENZIE: That is a good idea.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the Estimates themselves, the Minister's

Office, subhead 1.1.01.06 Purchased Services, you had budgeted $8,800 and there

was $29,900 spent and you have budgeted $8,800, the same this year as you had

budgeted the previous year. Why did it go up $21,100?

MR. SWEENEY: That is related to an increase in promotional costs related

to entertainment and business meeting costs. Last year in particular there was a

lot of consultation going on in the department with the minister, and a lot of

other people coming in, especially Bill 28, insurance people, and other

components that come through Government Services. There were a tremendous amount

of business meetings incurred.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, thank you.

Subhead 1.2.01 Executive Support. You had budgeted Salaries of $635,000,

spent $771,300 and this year you are back to $677,900, so you went up something

like $135,000 and even this year you are still up $42,000 from last year. Why

that extra bump there, that $771,000?

MR. SWEENEY: Basically what happened there was, Salaries went up due to

the reallocation of approved information technology funding which we provided

for the development and maintenance of the department's Web site. That funding

was used to maintain two temporary positions. We had a computer systems analyst

and a computer support specialist.

MR. J. BYRNE: So they were brought in, and they had not been budgeted

for?

MR. SWEENEY: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Under .05, same subhead, there $35,000 budgeted and you spent $92,000,

Professional Services. What were those services?

MR. SWEENEY: Those services were - there was an increase there due to

additional advertising costs associated with the consumer issues. Those costs go

up or down from year to year; they vary.

MS WAKEHAM: Is that Professional Services?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, Professional Services.

MR. SWEENEY: Professional Services, yes.

Okay, that one, 05.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, 05.

MR. SWEENEY: That was to do with the - remember I mentioned in my opening

remarks about a Consumer Advocate dealing with the Public Utilities Board

issues? That was Peter O'Flaherty, of the law firm of Goodland O'Flaherty.

That was an extra cost that was incurred there.

MR. J. BYRNE: Fifty-seven thousand.

Under 2.1.01.06 Purchased Services -

MR. SWEENEY: Under 06.

MR. J. BYRNE: - you had budgeted $111,000, you spend $88,900, and now you

are back up to $111,000. What were those Purchased Services?

MR. SWEENEY: That included $100,000 that was budgeted in 2002-2003 to

deal with advertising for consumer issues. All the monies were not utilized in

2202-2003, but we expect that it will be used this year.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you are saying that you spent $111,000 on advertising?

MR. SWEENEY: No, we spent $88,900; we had $111,000 budgeted.

MR. J. BYRNE: For advertising?

MR. SWEENEY: Yes, there are a lot of issues that are in that department.

Remember, there are eighty-five acts that are there.

MR. J. BYRNE: But didn't you just say that on the previous one there

was some money spent for promotion there?

MR. SWEENEY: Yes, in promotion, and then we also had the advertising for

consumer issues like the cell phone part of it. What else Barb? I am only there

a month, so -

MR. J. BYRNE: Does any money from this subhead go to the -

MR. SWEENEY: Absolutely not.

MR. J. BYRNE: You know what I am going to ask.

MR. SWEENEY: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Good things are happening.

MR. SWEENEY: No, absolutely not. Not a cent from the department actually

went into that.

MS WAKEHAM: The $100,000 is not just for (inaudible). This covered off

the cost of the town halls, the publication of the consolation document on Bill

28, it covered the cell phones, it covered the Don't Drink and Drive, it

covered the stuff that we did for the impaired driving, it covered some of the

consumer issues that we had on cost of credit, it covered brochures that we had

printed. I mean, I can go in and give you a full listing if you want.

MR. J. BYRNE:

Section 2.1.02.01 Residential Tenancies, Salaries, you had

budgeted $388,000, you spent $436,000 and this year you have budgeted $637,000,

which is almost, I won't say double, but pretty close to double, what you

actually had budgeted last year. What is going on there?

MR. SWEENEY: Let's see. From $388,000 to $436,000, that came about as a

result of filling an unfunded position in that sector, and to go up to $637,000

this year, the salary increase is a result of a redistribution of salary

positions from Trade Practices that we just talked about earlier. There were

four positions actually from Trade Practices and Licencing to Residential

Tenancies.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought there was a policy in government - maybe you have

cancelled it or whatever the case may be - that there was a hiring freeze on.

MR. SWEENEY: These are not new positions. They are transferred positions.

MR. J. BYRNE: Transferred?

MR. SWEENEY: They were transferred down from Trade Practices and

Licencing to Residential Tenancies, which reflects the difference.

If you notice, up in Trade Practices, it went from $671,000 down to $545,000.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under 2.1.03.12. Insurance and Pensions, Information

Technology, you had budgeted $75,000, you spent $77,500, and this year you are

budgeting $125,000.

Something just came to my mind, before you answer that question, and that is

with respect to computers and information technology. It probably deals with

Bill Parrott's area. The information people, the technology, the company that

was privatized, the computer company -

WITNESS: Xwave?

MR. J. BYRNE: Crown Lands use to have all their work done at MUN, I

think, the calculations and so on, years ago. Then they contracted it out to

xwave after. No, xwave used to do it and then when they privatized they

continued to do it. How much did it go up? Did you have any figures done on that

with respect to what they are charging you as a private company versus when it

was a corporation?

MR. PARROTT: Calculations?

MR. J. BYRNE: All the work they did on the computers for the monuments,

the grid, the co-ordinates, and all the calculations and these things.

MR. PARROTT: With changes in computer technology, those programs could

now run on PC boxes, so we moved it from xwave or NLCS at the time, back into

government at a savings of $50,000 a year, and that has been ongoing now for ten

or twelve years.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is not going that long. It might be seven or eight

years, but it is not ten or twelve years.

About that Information Technology,

section .12 there, $75,000 and $77,000 and

up to $125,000.

MR. SWEENEY: The $75,000 to $77,500, there was a computer and a couple of

printers bought there, small stuff. The $77,500 to $125,000, that was to upgrade

the computer system, because as I mentioned in my

preamble, we are licensing and

controlling the licensing of the 5,000 people who administrate the securities.

People who are selling you RRSPs and that sort of stuff.

MR. J. BYRNE: Administration, 3.1.01.01, Salaries. You budgeted $761,800,

you spent $907,400 and this year you are budgeting $868,300. You are up $107,000

from last year and you actually spent about $140,000 to $150,000 extra.

MR. SWEENEY: That was involving reclassification and severance pay.

Primarily, reclassification went from $761,000 to $907,000. This year we are

estimating, because there is no retroactive pay to be paid, it is just straight

salaries now on the reclassified positions, it will be $868,300.

MR. J. BYRNE: How many people would have been reclassified to get that

kind of money?

MS WAKEHAM: It was twelve people.

MR. J. BYRNE: Twelve. At what level?

MS WAKEHAM: They all went from Clerk IIIs to Clerk IVs. The thing is that

the classification had been outstanding for over a year. So it is all back pay

that was accumulated from the date of the reclassification request.

MR. J. BYRNE: Transportation and Communications; you budgeted $422,000.

You spent $473,000, that's say $50,000-$51,000 extra.

MR. SWEENEY: Believe it or not, most of that was postage.

Transportation and Communications, that covers travel by employees of the

division, postage costs, telecommunications costs, courier charges, data upload

costs incurred by driver examiners. The photo data that we are dealing with when

you get your drivers licence done, that kind of stuff.

MR. J. BYRNE: Driver Examinations and Weigh Scale Operations.

Licence and Registration Processing, 3.1.03.01, Salaries. You budgeted

$1,220,000, you spent $1,476,000, which is $250,000 more. This year you are back

to $1.3 million. Is that the same thing, reclassification?

MR. SWEENEY: Reclassification, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: How come there is so much reclassification going on?

MS WAKEHAM: First of all, under the collective agreement anybody who has

a change in their position can request a reclassification. We had over thirty

positions that had been outstanding for at least a year, in some cases eighteen

months, waiting for Treasury Board to do the reclassifications. Consequently,

because of the delay in doing the reclassifications, we ended up paying the back

pay.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under

section 04., Supplies, you budgeted $181,000, you

spent $213,000, which is $32,000 more. This year you are back to $172,000. Why

has it gone up so much? What were the supplies?

MR. SWEENEY: Basically, the supplies there were plates and stickers.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that right? That is part of the revenue though. You get

lots of revenue in from the plates and stickers.

MR. SWEENEY: The problem we have with the revenue though is that we do

not see it. Revenue goes in general account. We are still dealing with expense.

It would be nice if we could write it off. You know, run it as a business. Of

course, this department would have a surplus every year.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would say, yes.

Purchased Services, 06., you budgeted $265,800, you spent $281,000 and this

year it is up to $338,000. What would those purchased services be, making the

licence plates?

MR. SWEENEY: We are going to have to blame that on Treasury Board, that

is banking fees.

MR. J. BYRNE: They are what?

MS WAKEHAM: (Inaudible) to departments.

MR. SWEENEY: Yes, they are transferred to us.

MR. J. BYRNE: Banking fees?

MR. SWEENEY: Yes, the cost of transactions going through the department.

They used to be handled by Treasury Board at one time and now it is being done

through the department.

MR. J. BYRNE: Banking fees.

MS WAKEHAM: Banking fees.

MR. J. BYRNE: But you are putting money in all the time. You are not

taking money out, are you?

MR. SWEENEY: But there is a cost associated for taking that money in.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what I was telling you earlier about the banks.

MR. SWEENEY: Oh, yes. We just finished talking about it. We are getting

there.

MS WAKEHAM: Treasury Board is getting very good right now of transferring

different responsibilities to departments. We got the postage. We got the

telephones. Now we have the banking fees.

MR. J. BYRNE: Do they still get the same - finance. We are doing finance,

aren't we?

MS WAKEHAM: Leave it alone.

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MR. SWEENEY: You could make a good case for us.

MR. J. BYRNE: I will.

Support Services, 3.2.01, Salaries, one point five -

MR. SWEENEY: 3.2.01?

MR. J. BYRNE: Support Services, 3.2.01.01, Salaries, gone from $1.5

million budgeted, up this year to $1.7 million. What is on the go there? The

same thing?

MS WAKEHAM: That is the oil used.

MR. SWEENEY: I mentioned in my report, in the opening remarks, the two

staff members we had for controlling the oil regulations; the used oil. That is

the two positions.

MR. J. BYRNE: Regional Services, 3.2.02.01, Salaries, from $5.1 million

last year budgeted to $5.4 million this year. That is about $250,000, I suppose,

$255,000.

MR. SWEENEY: Filling vacant positions.

MR. J. BYRNE: Filling vacant positions. I thought there was a hiring

freeze on it.

MS WAKEHAM: Yes, that is another issue.

MR. SWEENEY: Oh, it is another issue, is it? Okay.

MR. McKENZIE: Walter transferred five people from MRD's payroll to GSC.

We had staff on the MRD payroll in Harbour Grace, Clarenville and Gander

situated at the Government Service Centres so we finally just shifted that onto

the GSC payroll as well. Then, I think, there were a couple of

reclassifications. That is where it adds up.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Supplies, 04., $66,200 budgeted up to $118,000. You may as well do them all

there now: 04., 06. and 07.

MR. SWEENEY: Number 04., that is supplies (inaudible) seven additional

staff. Remember we mentioned about the water testing? So that carried that cost.

Number 06., Purchased Services -

MR. J. BYRNE: It went from $60,800 up to $89,900. What were the services?

MR. SWEENEY: Basically, those costs came about from vehicle repair costs

and equipment maintenance costs. Those costs can vary from year to year because

where we are not buying a lot of new vehicles the ones that are out in the

system are getting more wear and tear.

MR. J. BYRNE: Repairs to vehicles.

MS WAKEHAM: And equipment.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, and equipment.

MR. SWEENEY: And equipment, yes. Do not forget the associated stuff.

Number 07., Property Furnishings and Equipment. Basically, what happened

there, the shortfall there - not the shortfall but the very little amount - we

imposed a ban on all discretionary furniture and equipment purchases. So

anything that we did not need or appeared to get along without, we did without.

MR. J. BYRNE: But you are going to buy them this year because it is up to

the same thing as last year.

MR. SWEENEY: Maybe not.

MR. J. BYRNE: 3.3.01, Vital Statistics Registry. You budgeted $372,000,

spent $485,000 and up to $530,000. Do not tell me it is reclassification again.

MR. SWEENEY: Yes, reclassifications.

MR. J. BYRNE: Reclassifications?

MS WAKEHAM: Now there is one other issue.

MR. SWEENEY: One other issue? Okay.

MR. McKENZIE: We had a position funded by the Department of Health and

Community Services as we were entering the data on adoptions for the new

adoptions act that is coming in. In their wisdom they have decided not to fund

that for us this year. So we have to swallow the cost of this additional clerk.

That is another $30,000 or so, along with the reclassifications.

MR. J. BYRNE: When you say they decided not to. Who are they?

MR. McKENZIE: The Department of Health and Community Services. They were

paying us for a couple of years on a temporary basis while we got the data base

done but now they want us to handle it on our own.

MR. J. BYRNE: Crown Land, 4.1.01.03, Transportation and Communications,

$179,000 budgeted, $152,700 spent, $163,800 -

MR. SWEENEY: That is travel, what it comes down to.

MR. J. BYRNE: Information Technology, $237,500 up to $329,400, and this

year you are budgeting $175,000. What was that bump? Why so much less this year

than budgeted for last year?

MR. SWEENEY: Last year was the - information technology, everything

changes. Most of that was to upgrade the computer hardware and software. This

year it has decreased again. We have a maintenance agreement in place and some

of the - this stuff varies from year to year.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have to ask, do we ever get to a point where the software

and the computer hardware is sufficient to do the job?

MR. SWEENEY: Go out tonight and buy one and tomorrow morning -

MR. J. BYRNE: I know that, but I can go home and use a computer I had

five years ago to do the job for me. It might take a bit longer but the question

is, do we need to be spending this kind of money all the time on software and

equipment and hardware if it can do the job? That goes for every department, not

your department?

MR. SWEENEY: Oh, yes.

MS WAKEHAM: I will answer that question because we are doing a review of

all of our information technology right now.

Yes, we have to do upgrades on some of the stuff we have. We have a

million-and-a-half transactions going through and to tell a customer outside

that you are now going to pay $100 for something but you are going to have to

wait two hours for it instead of the five minutes that you are going to spit it

out in, is a little bit difficult.

There are some things that we have to do in terms of upgrades, and

maintenance costs are increasing tremendously with respect to a lot of this

software. We are not changing our hardware unless it is absolutely necessary to

change our hardware, but you do have to try and improve efficiencies within your

operation for your client.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, and I can appreciate that.

MS WAKEHAM: But there is a balance between what you should and what you

do need, right?

MR. J. BYRNE: Whoever is there at the time, it is down to their -

discretion is not the right word - estimation of what it should be, I suppose.

MS WAKEHAM: There is a significant amount of scrutiny going on in terms

of the dollars that we are spending on IT, but there are things that we have to

do. We do not have a choice in terms of the upgrades.

MR. J. BYRNE: Land Management, 4.1.02., 01. Salaries, $333,000 budgeted,

$364,900, up to $417,000 this year. Again, it seems like it is all - I find it

hard to say there are all of these extra salaries and there is no new hiring, it

is just reclassification.

MR. SWEENEY: Actually, this one is hiring to fill positions; you hit one.

MR. J. BYRNE: I only have two or three left and I will be finished.

Surveying and Mapping, now here is an interesting one.

MR. SWEENEY: Here is your speciality.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, 4.1.03 Surveying and Mapping, Salaries went from

$523,400 down to $500,000, down to $381,000. Who did you fire?

MR. SWEENEY: They did not fire anybody. All that was there with the drop

from the budget to the revised - are we -

MS WAKEHAM: This is here. This is the federal GeoConnections equipment

and their cost. The work that we do for the federal government is costed off to

the federal government.

MR. SWEENEY: Yes.

The drop in $23,000, that was a delay in filling a vacant position. The other

one going down to $381,000, some of the costs were absorbed by the feds under

the Geomatics Agreements.

MR. J. BYRNE: Geomatics Agreements is the next one.

MR. SWEENEY: We got lucky.

MR. J. BYRNE: Geomatics Agreements, 4.1.04 you have Salaries $81,400,

none budgeted, and none budgeted this year. Obviously, there is someone in there

for a short period, I suppose.

Transportation and Communications is $5,000. Professional Services is

$125,000. Then, Purchased Services, $370,000 budgeted, down to $158,000 and back

up to $370,000. Do you want to go through those four?

MR. SWEENEY: Yes. Do you want to do those, Bill?

MR. PARROTT: Those figures will add up to $370,000, which was the total

of the budget agreement with the federal government for GeoConnections. It was

budgeted as that and then the revised shows the breakdown and what subheads it

was charged off to, to the federal government.

MR. J. BYRNE: The last one, 4.1.05 Land Development, you have Property,

Furnishings and Equipment $15,000 that was spent that was not budgeted for.

MR. SWEENEY: That was Information Technology. That was computer hardware.

MR. J. BYRNE: Computers?

MR. SWEENEY: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is it for me.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Jack.

Are there other questions for the minister or his officials from the

Committee members? Terry? Tom?

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you.

Just a couple of questions, actually. Jack seemed to do quite well in

covering all the bases.

The revenue collected on the sale of Crown land, where does that revenue go?

I see under Crown Land, subhead 4.1.01, under Revenue - Provincial, there is

$150,000. That is pretty consistent, so I would not say that is as a result of

the sale of Crown land, is it?

MR. SWEENEY: Any revenue that comes in regarding the sale of anything

goes into general coffers.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Pardon me?

MR. SWEENEY: All the revenue that comes in goes into general coffers.

MS WAKEHAM: That is not the land, Tom. That is the sale of photos of the

aerial photography maps and all of the mapping that we do. We purchase it and

then we sell it out. That is the revenue stream that comes in and goes into

general revenue.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay. I knew that, but that was the only area under Crown

Land that I saw revenue, so I was wondering.

MS WAKEHAM: Under subhead 4.1.05, Revenue - Provincial, $1,250,000, that

is the Crown land sale.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Land Development?

MS WAKEHAM: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Would that be cottage lots?

MS WAKEHAM: That includes recreational, residential, commercial Crown

lands, yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

That is residential and commercial Crown lands? That would also be cottage

lots as well, Barb?

MS WAKEHAM: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

Actually, that is the only question that I had. I think Jack covered off all

the areas that I had highlighted.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

Sandra.

MS KELLY: First of all, I should say to the new minister how quickly he

has come up to speed. It is absolutely amazing.

One of the things also I guess I should comment on is, with all of you being

here in St. John's you are not aware of just how helpful the outer offices are

to MHAs like me, that most of the time I never have to approach you guys because

the problems get solved out in my district by the officials who are out there. I

thank them very much. They work very closely with all of us out in Central

Newfoundland and do a great job.

One of the things that I hear out in my district quite a bit is around

drivers' licences, and I think many of you would know that it has always been

a big lobby about it, being able to do the whole thing at the office in Gander.

Will that day ever come, or is it going to be all done through a computer in the

near future? Which do you think is going to come first?

CHAIR: Bill.

MR. McKENZIE: It can be done. We are just a little short on cash. Really,

for the price of a good printer and a bit of computer hardware, we could print

them in Gander as well as Grand Falls. For the Committee members interested, we

would take the photo in Gander and it is transmitted to Grand Falls to have the

licence printed, and then it is shipped back to someone who is in Gander. With a

good printer - these are expensive printers to do those - we could do it in

Gander now. With a $10,000 or $15,000 investment, we could print them in the

Gander office, but even $10,000 or $15,000 is difficult these days.

MS KELLY: Now I know what to lobby for.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Thank you, Sandra.

Eddie.

MR. JOYCE: (Inaudible) is a new member here and he is wondering about

supper, and I said that is out of my hands.

To the minister and the staff, I know sometimes you get a lot of complaints

and I do not want to be like the people who complain and nag you guys too much,

but from my perspective out in Corner Brook, I think the staff does a great job

for the Corner Brook region. Sometimes there are always a few tangles, but then

a lot of times when issues come in there is always more than one story to it.

Minister, congratulations. It is good to see that you are really involved

with the department. It is very obvious that you are. To the staff, thank you

very much. Sometimes I call in and by the time I reach your level there are

usually so many weaves and woves in it that Houdini would not be able to get it

straightened out, but you do your finest. You do get a lot of great comments out

on the West Coast, so from the people I deal with in the Bay of Islands, I thank

you very much.

MR. SWEENEY: Thank you, Eddie.

I have to say, I had an opportunity to visit the Corner Brook office. There

is a great group of people there and they are very accommodating.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

I will now call for the vote on the various headings.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.1.05 carried, without amendment.

On motion, Department of Government Services and Lands, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: I would like to thank the Committee for their diligence in

questioning the minister and his officials. I would also like to thank the

officials along with the minister for their succinct answers and good knowledge

base that they have and the information that they conveyed to us this evening. I

am sure Jack must have gotten most of his questions answered satisfactorily.

MR. J. BYRNE: I got answers.

CHAIR: There are really two answers I observed. One is reclassification

and the other is new hires. They seem to alternate depending on - whatever you

wanted, it was the opposite, it appeared, Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: As usual.

CHAIR: That is the way the cookie crumbles or the mop flops. Thanks

again, everybody, and I would ask for a motion to adjourn.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would like to thank everyone: the minister, the deputy

minister, and the staff. Every year, I would imagine, you get some repeat

questions type of thing but the numbers are always different. I appreciate you

being here and the answers that you gave.

CHAIR: I guess the minister will be able to advise you next year whether

or not he got repeat questions.

MR. J. BYRNE: I doubt if he will be advising me next year.

MR. SWEENEY: Next year I will just say a or b, Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: No, I might be saying a or b.

CHAIR: May I have a motion to adjourn, please?

On motion, the Committee adjourned.