Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, JUNE 17, 1975 SPEAKER : THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 52

June 17, 1975, The House met at 11:00 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 2348 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to present a petition from the residents of Rencontre East, Fortune Bay. The prayer of this petition is threefold insofar as the residents are asking for a road to the coDDllunity, a slipway and repairs to the government wharf. Actually two of these requests should be directed to the Federal Government as the l'harf and slipways of course are federal responsibilities.

RH - 1 I note that this petition is signed by some 208 people. But it looks like families signed for all of their children because the writing is very similar and I doubt if all of the signatures are acceptable for that reason. However, the request is genuine from this cODDDunity. There is no doubt that Rencontre F.ast, being the last remaining isolated settlement in Fortune Bay, the onJy one that is not connected by road 1has quite a legitimate request in asking for a road connection.

Unfortunately, I have investigated the cost of a road to that c011111unity,which is allllost dead centre in the bottom of Fortune Bay,and it would cost several million dollars. The terrain is allllost unbelievable. It is mountainous with deep fiords and inlets and to get around these would entail very, very many miles of road. Possibly,sometime :In the future the only solution to that particular area is that a road be placed inland, probably as far inland as fifteen or twenty miles to eventuallv join up the F.ast side and West side of Fortune Bay.

This in itself lrl.11 be a very expensive project and if there are to be branch roads built out to this settlement it would also cost a tremendous amount of money. I have gone into this extensively over the years to try to see if there is any alternative way in which these people could he serviced by road. But in view of the fact that there are less than 30n people in the settlement it would appear to be outrageously expensive and 6907

.Tun 17 , 1 q75. Tape 2348 RR - 2 <mite beyond the capabilities of the ~ovemme11t at this point. I can support the need of the wharf repairs and the slipway. There are some active fishennen in the area and the facilities which they have there are very poor, although the Federal Govemment: 4id spend a considerable amount of money some years agp Oil quite a good govem­ mcnt 1,.harf hut it has been allowed to deteriorate. I will support t~is petition in as far as I can and that is in the ligbt of the explanation which I have made.and will ask that it he laid on the table of the Honse and referred to the deputments, hath provincial and federal, to which it relates. 6908

June 17 • 1975 Tape no, 2349 Page 1 - IIW MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. _MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, of course we support the petition presented by the member for Fortune Bay on behalf of his constituents in the comunity of Rencontre East. It is the first time,! believe, Sir, in this honourable House that I have seen a member present a petition on behalf of his constituents and then half-heartedly support a part of the petition. MR. PECKPORD: Honesty is not a virture any more. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, it is not a matter of being honest, Mr.

Speaker, but it seems to be most irregular indeed, and I aa sure that the minister's constituents will be disgusted when they hear that he did not follow their instructions and support the petition in its entirety. I must say it was very wishy-washy, very weak-kneed and lukewarm,the support that was given. We wholeheartedly support the prayer of that petition. The people, Sir, in Recontre East are entitled to a road as much as the people in Burgeo, and we are spending a few mllion dollars every year to put a road down to Burgeo. Why not take these people out of isolation?

And we support the petition in its entirety, Sir, and I hope that we will be reported - MR. EABLE: There are 2,000 people in Burgeo. MR. REAJtY: W.U,aaybe there will be an influx of population in Rencontre East. It is a good fishing ca.a1mity. Maybe people will go there and settle. Maybe industry vill go in there if ~11.e co1mtry is opened up.

And I would submt to the minister that all be has to do is to get the Prellier to go down to Rencontre East, take an envelope out of bis pocket and scribble a little co-itment on the back of it, the saae as be did for the Loop Road and then the people in Rencontre East will get their badly needed road. MR. SPF.Alli.: The Hon. Minister of Social Services. MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Speaker, if I aay, and I am obliged to rise to support the petition in the sense of the need but it is rather strange to me that on aany occasions when I eat over there I supported the s•e petition but the gentleaan who nov feels that everybody, but everybody should get a road was reclining e~ere in the backbenches. But quite 6909

June 17 • 1975 Tape no. 2349 Page 2 - - frankly,! think we see the need. and I aust say I aclaire the honesty and sincerity of the -ber when he puts forth the case that.yes. a road is necessary · - and the road is necessary - but here is the cost to the Pra.ince and it is beyond our reach. So I just would say that I supl)Ort the intent of the petition,particularly if we can assist thea with their fishery probl-. MR. SP~: Are there any other petitiona? ORAL QUESTIOJIS: !fa. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for St. Barbe !forth. MR. F. B. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker• I wonder if the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing could indicate to the House if there is any assistance available to individuals in unincorporated ~ties who vi.sh to have a well drilled by a drilling rig that happed to be in the vicinity of that area at a particular tiae? If I can just use a very brief ezaaple, Sir, by vay of explanation: In St.

Barbe Borth there is a drilling rig up there nov, and there are a nimber of individuals vho would vi.sh to have a vell drilled for four or five homes but they are not living in an incorporated cmmunity, and thev are wondering if there is any financial assistance available for groups of individuals in such a situation for the purposes of getting vater for their homes? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon, Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. PECKFORD: Hr. Speaker, in answer to that question, there are two routes that can be followed. Nov I ight be a little bit wrong in the figure that I ID going to give, but 6910

June 17, 1975. Tape 2]50 r.m - 1 I think there are regulations i.n the Water Services Division which indicate that if you have seven homes, I think it is seven si~natures from a group, that they qualify for one wel 1. MR. ROWE: Five is the number. MR. PECKFORD: It is five, is it? It is five, is it? MR. ROWE: Yes. MR. PECKFORD: I do not know where I got seven. So, if thev have signed a petition requesting a well, right, five householders,and send it in to the department, then it could be acted upon and something could be done. At least we could try to do something. That is one route.

But the other route that I prefer is that if they are in a community of twenty-five or thirty householders, right, houses, or thirty or forty or whatever, it is better for them to go the route of forming a Water Committee to deal with the whole COllllllunity because if you start doing piecemeal, and you get five or six people wanting a well here ~nth one petition,and five or six householders doing it you are destroying the whole purpose of having a central agency within the small community to try to deliver some kind of an artesian well system to them.

So, my own preference is that the honourable member would be well advised if he tried to have his connmmity establish, and it can be done very quickly, a Water Cammi.tee, and go that route rather than do it on an ad hoc, piecemeal basis because as soon as you get five or six householders applying for a well,and that is approved,you will have the next five or six householders wanting to do the same thing. So, that is the answer to your question as I see it. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, it does not work. I have been trying it for the past three and a half years.

Would the minister give consideration to requests by small groups of individuals where there is a drilling rig in the area at the present time without having to go throup.h all this rigmarole of petitions to the department and what have you because that drilling rig will be moving out within the next few days, and there 6911

.hm<' 17, 1975. Tape 2350 RH - 2 arP <mi.te a mnnber of individuals who are requesting the seTVices of that ,\rilling rig now,and wonder if there is financial assistance ava111'1~le other than through a Water Services Conmd.ttee because ~re h.1.ve heen trying to work through Water Services Conmd.ttee and they 11:ive not been worl":lng. It is as simple as that. ~m. PF.CKrORD: Well, Mr. Speaker, in anmrer to that, that, in my opinion, the honourable member or the people in his area have not done their homework if the Water Collllllittees are not working,as far as I am concerned. That is number one.

To say that there is a lot of red tape connected with that division is also, :In my opinion, not valid. This year they are spending upwards to $800,000 or $900,000 on unincorporated areas and there is quite a few places in this Pronnce that can boast of a fairly adequate water supply sytem as a result of effort~ by that division. NR. THOMS: I remeJ11ber Burnside. ?'R. PEC~'FORD: And secondly - yes, well, there were other factors involved in Burnside as there is in just about every place in Bonavista North, Mr. Speaker, - MR. THOMS: That is a great system you are bringing fo:n,ard! 'r-!R.

PF.CKFORD : - because very often that was done ~d hocly. t'R. rnm•s: WA lost s20.000. MR. !'URl'l!Y: They need a new member. MR. l'RC:KFORD: So, there still must be at least five signatures on any petit i on in order for them to qualify for a well.and that is what it h,, r, t o he and that has to come to the division. We cannot just go ahead hlindly and okay artesian wells hecause a rig happens to be in thf' area and five or six householders want it. You know, it is just "'" P f' 11 to clo away with the Water Committee and just open the money and ]Pt it pour out to whomever wants to come.

We have to have a sy stem and hopefully that is as symplistic as can be made. ttn. 11mm: }!r. Speaker, we have a system but it is not a water syst:em. That :l.s the problem. Sir, I got a question for the honourable Minister 6912

June 17, 1975 . Tape 2350 RH - '.I of Education . Sir, in view of the fact that the ~overnment has stated categorically that it will not take over the ownership of the schools and the Harris Report on Education and Human Resource 11 sattl nothin ~ about School Tax Authorities or assessments nnd t he fact that the Pecleration of School Boards are now meetin ~ on t he problem of financing education in this Province, is the ~ov~rnment, the Department of Education givin g any serious consicleration to what t hey are going to do I.Tith school assesS111ents, nl.ll'lher one, and school taxes, number two?

Is any serious consideration heing given to t he possibility of abolishing assessments and school taxes in this Provinr.c? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable ~1inister of Education. MR. OTTEllHEIMER: Mr. Speal<er, at this pet"iod when all school hoard !I and indeed the whole educational community has need of additional t"evenue, more revenue to fulfill its servi.ce,and when the limitatton!I on government expenditure becaus e of financial condi t ions at"e evidentally known 691 3

June 17, 1975 Tape 2351 (Morning) PK - 1 to all intelligent and sensible people, it would be most irresponsible for this government to deny to school boards the cert:rln amount of additional revenue that they can get through either assessments or taxation. So certainly it is not this government's intention at the present ti.lie to abolish the rights of school taxation. 1'1R. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, :I will repeat the supplementary. The minister must have misunderstood my question.

I asked the minister, and I will rephrase it, if he is giving any consideration, his department,to the abolition of school assessments and school taxes, and looking at the possibility that more money can go to the school boards from the general revenue of the Province than through school tax authorities and assessments because of the very high default rates in the collection of school assessments and school taxes. whether it is property or noll taxes.

Baa the minister's dey,artlllent and officials studied whether or not in fact more money can go to the school boards from the general revenue of this Province than through the school assessment and school tax route? Just analyze the problem. MR. SPF.AKER: The Hon. Minister of Education. MR. OTTr.NHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, the problem of financing education fro~ a]l of its aspects, both from the small a11ount through local taxation or assessments, and from the Public Treasury,is under - and this is no exaggeration to say - pretty 11111chc:onsbmt ~eviev.

There is obviously in the financial position of the government,and the financial position of the country,and the general economic and financial period in which we are,it would be highly irresponsible, fndf>Pd i.t could well be financially suicidal for this govermnent to undertake expenditures that it could not in fact finance,to - MR. F. ROWE: School boards - MR.

OTTF.NHF.IMER: -have to increase the necessity of borrowing a sum ,,,hich could not in fact be raised on the financial market. 'ly answer is that it is not at this time the intention of the government to abolish school taxes or school assessments and to filnd in 6914

June 17, 1975 Tape 2351 (Morning) PK - 2 one hundred per cent from the Public Treasury, the Public Treasury now funds approximately ninety-five per cent, and it is not the government's intention at the present time, indeed I do not think it is within the financial capacity of the government at the present time. MR. F. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. F. ROWE: It is the people we are talking about, not the - The Hon. Member for St. Barbe North. A supµlementary, Mr. Speaker.

I can not - would the minister explain why he says that it would be financially suicidal for the government to try to raise the money for educational purposes, and why it would not be suidical for the school boards to have to do the same thing and that we are asking the government to do? Because the money is coming from the people's pockets in any case. MR. CROSBIE: Point of OrdPr! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, this is not a question. This is an argument the honourable gentleman is presenting. MR.

SPEAKER: The Chair was about to remind the honourable member that the rule I think, the Standing Order says that the Chait can ~dmit a reasonable amount of supplementaries, plus the fact, of course, that there should not be any long

preamble or debate. And I will certainly will permit the member to ask the question, if he wants to be precise with the question. He is getting into a realm of debate. MR. F. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Another question for the Minister of Education, Sir. Could the minister rationalize why they have stated that they are not willine to consider taking over the physical ownership of the schools in the Province? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, one in Question Period is asked to answer,not to rationalize, philosophize MR. F. ROWE: Okay,answer - MR.

OTTENHEIMER: - given lengthy dissertations etc~ but to be asked questions and to give answers, What in fact I said was that the government has not decided, had not made a decision to take over the ownership of school property. That is in fact what I said. Now

June 17, 1975 Tape 2351 (Morning) PK - 3 if tl\e honourable gentlemim wishes me to ratiOJUllize and give a disseration on it OJ;' some such thing then he would have to seek s1n:otber forum because Your Uonour would not al.low me to rationalize, , but only to anSti'er. I know that I am always rational but that does not mean that at this particular period I Slll pendtted to rationalize but merely to answer rationally. SOME PON. MEMBER: Oh, oh. HR~ F. ROWE: Sir, he lllllY not be able to give a disseration but he is certainly DK>St disconcerting. Sir, another question for the Minister of F.ducation.

In viev of the, you know, fiJUU1Cial situation of the scli,QC>l boards, once .i,p;a:in, has the minister's dep¢tment, Sir, or bas the minister or th,e government given any consideration to liquidating the debts of the school boardl]I ,, just wi,ping them out - ~ - CROSBIE: Do away wi.th thell!. MR. F. Rotm: - do away with them - so that any other money clllllhlg from the government 6916

June 17,1975 'bpe no, 2352 Page 1 - mw can be used for educational purposes instead of servicing the debts of these school boards. MR.. CROSBIE: Hov does that affect the constitution? MR.F. B. ROWE: I am asking the minister. SOME RON. MF.MBERS: Oh, oh! Hll. SPEADR: Order, please: Hll. F. B. ROWE: On a point of order, Sir• I am sure the Minister of Education is quite capable of answering any questions put to him by the huable member for St. Barbe North, and he does not need any coaching from the Minister of Fisheries, acting, acting - what is the - MR. NEARY: Deputy Assistant Premier. MR.

OTTENIIEIMER: I will answer that on my own when I get a chance. Jill. SPF.ADR: Order, please~ Honourable meabers are aware, of course, that when a aeaber is speaking he does have the right to be ~eard in silence. MR.. F. ROVE: Thank you. MR. SPP.ADR: The Bon. Minister of Education. MR. Oiti.NIDllMER: Mr. Speaker, I certainly thank the honourable gentleaan for his e.xpresaion of confidence.

Actually• a couple of weeks ago there was a aeeting, the Premier, officials of the various school boards, aa a aatter of fact practically every school board in the Province, myself. the Minister of Finance mui some ci.vil servants and at that tille or shortly after, within a couple of days after, a •all c~ittee was established. We have already aet once. We are meeting, as a liatter of fact, later today and that in fact is what we are exaaining 7 the deficit on current account of various school boards and various actions which gove~nt and/or boards can take to :baprove the situation.

Those aeetings are still in course so it would be wrong to say anything further other than that ve are meeting and ve plan to fi-lize our meetings and hopefully agree upon possible solu~ions within the next, say, approx:baately two weeks. I think to say more than that would, of course, not be fair or 6917

June 17 • 1975 Tape no. 2352 Page 2 - av acting properly with the people with vboa ve are nov disc:ussiug, and they are representatives of the Federation of School Jloards. MR. F. B. ROWE: Sir, one last suppleaentary. I do not bow whether this is hypothetical or not. It is not hypothetical, Sir.

Is it not a fact that if you l1111p together all the individual debts of all the 11cbool boards,and even if the governaent have to borrow in order to liquidate these debts,that it would be leas expensive to borrow that 1~ a- to liquidate the debt than to service the present debts by the individual school boards throughout the Province? MR.. OnENBEJMEII.: I think uov the honourable gentleaan ill thinking, I would certainly pre-, about capital debt rather than current debt because the capital debt would be, of course, a aacb 11CJre considerable BIIOUut.

The aeetings that ve are nov having are essentially on current account. But certainly vbat the honourable gentl- says, I think, he -t be thinking in teraa of capital - Jm. F. B. ROWE: Yea. HR. OTTENBEIMER: - of capital. I think it would be quite true - the Minister of Finance could correct aeon this - I think it would be quite true that if governaent could, you bow, take over the entire indebtedness, whatever it aight be,in es:cees of $100 aillion, and finance the whole thing, that the interest rate aight veil be lower than having, you know, 110re than one agency.

The fact is, bearing in mind the borrowing which the government is going to be required to do during this fiscal year, to support the education syatea, the health system, the social services system, roads, water, sewerage, the public service, the entire 1111bit of public expenditure, whether we can add another $100 million or $120 aillion or $130 million to that borrowing,and from what I understand it would not in fact be possible to do it, that nobody would loan us that extra aount, that it is not a question so even of whether we would wish to, whether ve would like to.

It is a question of whether we can or cannot. And our financial advisers tell us that there is a certain aaount beyond which we cannot borrow. And to have to borrow or to extend the line of 6918

June 17, 1975 Tape No. 2352 cred,it or to incur an additional liability. c()Ilti11genc:y or otherwi11e of such an amount would seriously Jeopa ·rdize the financial position of the Province. MR. P.B.ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is the minister admitting before the House, Sir, that the government has r-eached a limited borrowing capacity at this · present time, reach~ the absolute limit? HR.. OTrENBEIMER: Mr, Speaker, the quest:Lon is certainly not a suppl~nta,ry, and it is a supposition. l said nothing of the kind whatsoever. 6919

June 17, 1Q75 Ta~e 2353 (Morning) PK - 1 an=erinR the gentleman's question with respect to the financing of the cap1.tal debt of school hoards, and that question is neither supplementary nor does it arise from that. And if the honourable gentleman wishes to presUl!le questions on the overall, the question of financing then obviously he should direct them to the Minister of Finance. ~ !KN . MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR. F. RO'WF.: Pell, Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Finance. Sir, has the Province reached the position now where it cannot borrow any more money? "IR.. SPF.AKER: }!R. F.

ROWE: capacity. t.ftl .• SPF.AKER: 111l. CROSBIE: :,-m. SPF.AKER: Order, please! That it has reached a limit over its borrowing Order, please! On a point of order, "Mr. Speaker, The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. HTl. CROSBIE: Standing Order 31 (

a) deals with oral questions, and it says in these periods questions on matters of urgency may be addressed orally to ministers of the Crown, on matters of urgency. This is not a proper Question. It is not a matter of urp,ency. And it is not a proper question in any event that a question of that nature. It would be the same as saying, you know, when did you stop beating your wife? ~IP... F. RnWE: Sir, to that question MR. CROSBIE: So I ask that question be ruled out of order. MR. F. ROWE : To that point of order, Sir.

I think this is one of the most urgent questions that has ever been asked in this House of Assembly. When the Minister of Education indicates that we have reached the limit of our borrowing capacity - MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! MR. F. ROWE: and gives a - on a point of - MR. SPEAK.ER: Order! The honourable member should be brief in his point of order and state what it is. MR. F. ROWE: Sir, I mn just trying to point out that when the 6920

_)'. June 17, 1975 Tape 2353 (Morning) PK - 2 Minister of Education indicates that we have reached the limit of our borrowing capacity I can think of no more urp,ent question to put to the Minister of Finance than to ask him if that is the fact. In fact the Minister of Education referred me to the Minister of Finance, and that I have done. I have asked the Minister of Finance now if it is true what the Minister of Education said,that we have reached the limit of our borrowing capacity in this Province? MR. OITENHEIMER: !-IR. SPRAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: On that point of order, if I may. The Hon.

Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, I have been misquoted by the honourable gentleman. I stated to him that if he wished to ask questions on the finances of the Province he direct them to the Minister of Finance. I certainly did not indicate that this Province had reached the limit of its borrowing. I indicated that the financial advisors to the government would not think that it would be in the best financial interest to incur an additional $150 million or $140 million or $12~ million for the purpose suggested by the honourable gentleman. And this is quite different from what he alleges me to have said. MR.

SPEAKER: The remarks made between the Hon. Minister of Education and the honourable Member from St. Barbe North are merely a difference of opinion as to the

interpretation of what was said. The rule with regards to asking a question which demands an urgent answer is certainly a point well taken. The Chair does not consider the question asked by the honourable ~ember from St. Barbe North to the Minister of Finance to be one which requires an urgent answer, and thus it is out of order. The Hon. Member for Twillingate. MR. H. GILLETT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries. I shall not ask him to rationalize but the answer will,I think.require the same thing.

I shall merely ask him why either his department or the government has decided to charge double the rates, all rates doubled on the complexes, some built and some being built,for boats that are not fishing boats, other than fishing boats? 6921

June 17, 1975 Tape 2353 (Morning) PK - 3 !~?._- Sl'EAKIW.: The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR, CROSBIE: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will have to check to see whether the facts that the honourable gentleman mentions are correct. But if they are correct it will be a quite simple explanation for it. The Marine Service Centres are built and constructed with public funds for the assistance of our fishermen, and f1shermen who have fishing boats. If there are people who have pleasure boats, yachts, cruisers and the like, and want to use these Marine Service Centres then surely they should pay proper rates to use them.

The fishermen who have used our Marine Service Centres are gding to pay a rate that will not be calculated to meet the cost of operating those service centres. If other vessels come along, pleasure boats come along,then certainly i,e are p,oinp, to charge them more and get more revenue to operate the service centres. The whole purpose of them is to assist the fishermen and the fishinp; }oat, and not anyone who has a pleasure craft. We are glad to assist other boat owners, but if they are pleasure boat operators they will have to pay more. But in the meantime I ,,,ill have to check and see what the rates are. MR.

SPF:AKER: !fil • C. ILL f:TT : The Ron. Member for Twillingate. A su!)plementary, Mr. Speaker. In that case then mav Task the minister if the pleasure boat owners or non-fishing boats will be turned down because of lack of space? Will the fishermen's hoats have the pr:l.ority? ~- CROSJHF.: Yes. lffi. GILLETT: If so t:hey - MR. CROSBIE: The answer to that is yes. 'MR. r.ILLRTT : Well 1 if so,then how can you justify refusing somebody? You have set a rate, If they are willing to pay the rate you cannot turn them down. MR. CROSJHE : Mr.

Speaker, you know, we can - I believe that we can _iustify the position - J-ffi.. GILLETT: No you cannot. 'fJl . CR'l SRTF:: - tha t t he se Harine Service 6922

June 17. 1975 Tape no. 2354 Pagel - mw Centres are going to have first authority for the use of the fishermen and their fishing vessels in the Province. MR. GILLETT: That is a different story. MR. CROSBIE: Now,if a case occurs where we could take a fishing boat or we can take soaebody's cabin cruiser, we will take the fishing boat. That will be our policy, because the purpose of the Marine Service Centres is 1first 1 aid to the fishing industry. So I cannot see any difficulty in pursuing or perusing a policy like that. MR. GILLETT: Mr.

Speaker, if I am permitted another supplementary~ May I ask the minister how he could refuse the owner of a cabin cruiser if he is willing to pay the rates? MR. CROSBIE: Simply say, no! MR. GILLETT: If you say you have a priority, the fishermen come first, that is different, but you have set a rate. If a millionaire goes with a yacht and has the oney to pay how can you refuse hilll? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, we do not intend to refuse any boat owner as long as we have space and facilities there, you know, to afford him the service that he is looking for.

All I - saying is that if a case occurs where, you know, the rest of the space is being utilized and you are asked to take a fishing boat, and you can only take one boat, or a cabin cruiser, then we would take the fishing vessel. He would have priority, but ve are not going to turn down other kinds of vessels as long as there is room for all. And I would suspect that there will be ro01111 for all most of the time. MR. SPEAltEll: The Hon. M-ber for Bonavista North. MR. TBOMS: Mr. Speaker, in view of the absence of the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, I would like to direct a question -to the Premier.

I wonder could the Premier indicate to this honourable House the situation as far as the fires in Central Newfoundland. or if the governaent has approached the federal governa?nt or is planning on approaching them for help in relation to these fires? 692~:$

June 17, 1975 Tape no. 2354 Page 2 - - KR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Premier. MR. MOORES: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I was just talking to the Hon. Minister of Forestry just a aoaent ago when I went out and the situation is on the forest fire that whilst they are not totally under control, they are certainly in -.uch better sh.-pe today.

The fire on Northwest Gander which was of major concern because of its size and its location and in that very heavy black spruce, is now being oatrolled by about seventy-five aen looking for hot spots but the fact is that the fire is considered to be getting under control right now even though that is not, you ltnow, until now officially been said. The Wood Dale fire on the Boarood Highway is also more under control than yesterday. We have had fairly cal.a weather and that has helped treaendously in that regard. However they are both still dangerous.

The one that went out of control again lut night was the Ell:ploit's fire, opposite froa Bishops Falls,and this morning the Price people and the forestry people have over one hundred aen, I understand, on the fire and the eight water bcmbers, four froa Quebec and the four provincial water boabers,are all working that one fire. And I think with that sort of an effort today that should co- to shape u well. Regarding the ban on the travel in the woods, the reason that ban was put on, Jllr.

Speaker, for the infol'118tion of the House,was to ensure that these three, what could be very -jor fires, were brought under control. And as soon as they are brought under control, of course, that will be lifted. The reason it was brought on was because if any other fires had started with those three fires there, with just the eight water b011bers, the four fro Quebec and our own four, it would have been very difficult to get at them as quickly as we could.

But it looks now as if, you know, - that we are not saying officially until the fires have been brought more under control than they are now but the possibility is, hopefully, that will happen and that the fires will be brought under control within the next twenty-four to forty-eight hours. 6924

June 17 • 1975 Tape no. .:US4 Page 3 - mr MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bonavista North. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Health. I wonder could the Minister of Health inform this Bouse if there is either programme within his department or any other government department so that people on long-term assistance could receive. say. dentures through government help? MR. SPEAKER: The Bon, Minister of Health. MR. WELLS: The answer to that is that I will undertake to find out for the member at the earliest opportunity. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon, Member for Bell Island. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the President of Treasury Board. Sir. can tell us how much revenue the Province has lost due to the liquor store strike? HR. SPEAKER: The Bon, Minister of Industrial Development. MR. DOODY: No. I do not have the figure with me, Hr. Speaker. The situation. of course, is that some revenue is being lost. It has been offset to a certain degree by the increased beer sales, but I do not have the exact figure with me, I certainly can obtain it. 6925

June 17, 1975. 'l'ape 2355 RH - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Transportation and Colll!lunications, Sir. Glad to see him back in his seat today, Sir. Will the minister tell the House what action has been taken as a result of charges made at a meeting with the minister last week by the international representative of the Bricklayers' Union that they had to employ, the union had to employ a consulting firm because walls were falling down over here in the Health Science r,omplex and they had to employ their own consulting firm to look into it.

What action has the minister taken on that to investigate it, to see if it is correct? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. NR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, that .action was taken quite some time ago. That was last year and certainly all the charges that were laid at that time were checked out.

The report that was done independently by the union,and which we appreciate them doing,was checked out by the officials of the department as well as by the site managers on the site 1an<l every effort was made to insure that the problems that were sup,gested, that may be there :, and there was some question as to if the consultants report was completely accurate in the eyes of departmental officials or th.e managing agents of the oro .1ect ,and when these have heen t~ken in hand the problems that were pointed out no longer exist in mv information. If you would like to check further on that I certainly will.

But as I recall it, these problems have been solved . There was some possibility of danger there and that has now heen resolved. MR. NF.ARY: ----- Mr. Speaker, would the minister tell the House in his capacity as acting Minister of Public Works, what action has been taken on charges made also at the same meeting between the ministers and the Bricklayers' union last week, that material and labour at thP.

Pealth Science Complex has been diverted for personal use for huilding hasements in houses, private houses of individuals who are either on manage~ent payroll or were on management's payroll at the Health Science Complex,an<l that employees were sent out to 1'ury a <'10r.? Hhat ;,ction has the l!linister taken on these charges? 6926

June 17, 1975. Tape 2355 Pn - 2 MR. ROUSSEAU: I had one ch;irge that was ]aid at the meeting on]v, that bricklayers were used. That is the nn1v nne. The rest of them I do not know ahout. '!'he p:entleman who laicl the charge had what he said was an affidavit ;ind he promiserl to send me a copv of this affidavit,~1hich I th:lnk possih]y the honourable Memher from Bell Island has. I rlo not have it vet,or am aware of it. So, all I can do 1s ask him to send it to me,which he has not yet done but whicl1 he said he would do.

In the meantime, I have talked to the gentleman in question and I want to assert again, there is only one gentleman the charge was laid against, in my opinion, as a result of the meeting. That gentleman has written a letter,and I suggested that he Fould write a letter giving his side of the story,and I rlo have the gentleman'~ letter.But I do not yet have the affidavit or whatever other literature was going to he sent to me hv the gentleman from the Bricklayers Union. He said he would hut I have not recei verl it y,, t. MR. NEARY: Well, the matter is under investigation? MR. ROUSSEAU: Oh!

We have a letter from the gentleman on whom the charge was laid with his side of the story. I woulcl now like to have the affidavit. That is what he called it. I do not know exactly what it is,but apparently it is an affidavit. I am ~,aiting for that and the international representative indicated to me that he would send it to me but I have not yet received it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, another question for the acting "inister of Public Works.

Sir, woulcl the minister be prepared to tahle a monthly report that is submitted by Scrivener, the proiect managers down at the Health Science Complex for the month of Pebruarv when ttr. Purdy, Scrivener's representative,severely criticized Newfoundland workmanship and Newfoundland labour. Would the minister l-,e prepared to table that monthly report in the Rouse so we can all take a look at it? "MR. ROUSSEAU: I will have to take that question as notice, Hr. Speaker. I was not tlie minister of the department at the time. 6927

June 17, 1Q75. Tape 2355 RH - 3 I v111 check it out and I will undertake to check it. NR. NEAllY: Okay, Sir, of Industrial Development. I have a question, Sir, for the Minister Is the minister aware that Mr. Roland M.artin has made a public statement that the government may hold more business luncheons and if so, if the minister is aware of it, would the minister tell us when his Industrial Development circus will take to the open road and where they are going to go this year, what cities and towns and coDD11Unities and villages? 'MR. DOODY: I suspected for some time, Mr.

Speaker, that the honourable member was looking for a job in the circus. This is the first formal application we have had and we will certainly consider him, if we do indeed open a circus on the road. I am sure he will be a great hit. We have had occasion last year to have several industrial development luncheons in the United States, entertaining the financial comnnmity and some industrialists in the area. It may very well be that we will have several more this year. Plans have not been formalized for them.

However, and in that context I feel there will be very little need for the talent of the honourable member and so he probably will not be called on. If it does degenerate into a circus, of course, we will certainly take advantage of his offer. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the minister tell the House what the results 6928

June 17, 1975 Tape 215/i (!'orninp,) PK - 1 are of last year's dinners, expensive dinners that were held j_n New York and Boston and a couple of other places:, where the [' rernier was almost put in jail? MR. DOODY: We were entertained lavishly as guests of the T!nited States Marshals. They r,reeted us with Valent j_nes, and. you 1-: now, we were most gracious to them in return. That in itself was not all that beneficial, I supnose, but it was interesting. It is pretty hard to assess in concrete terms the value of these luncheons. MR. NF.ARY: '!R. DOODY: I sunnose it is.

We do know that the bond issues that were offered for sale in the United States and other areas were sold with a great - MR. ROBERTS: That was a result of the great legal advice p,ive>n the Finance Minister - MR. DOODY: - great ease. They may very uell have. Our discussions with these people - MR. ROBERTS: - hy his son. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. DOODY: And our entertaining these people I think attributed in no small way to the success of the bond issues. T certainly hope that they did.· ~. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the ''inister of Health, Sir.

Would the Minister of Health tell the lfouse whether any of this bad meat that we hear so much about in the Province of Quebec has found its way into Newfoundland? And while the minister is on his feet - MR. DOODY: MR. NF.ARY: MR. DOODY: "'fil. NF.ARY: I thought you were looking for more candy from me. - would he also tell the Tlouse if the inspectors - Take the rotten meat from the Liberal Party. if the inspectors in l1is department are looking into this matter of milk shakes, you know, that we hear so much criticism about in the last few weeks? 6929

June 17, 1975 Tape 2356 (Morning) PK - 2 HR. SPEAKER: I will permit the honourable minister to answer it and that will use the thirty minutes allocated for the question period. MR. WF.LLS: fir. Speaker, I will answer the last question first. I have not heard anything about milk shakes or bad milk shakes, so I think we can orobably dispense with that:. If there is any evidence that there :1.s something 'l<o'rong, and the honourable member will give it: to me. I will endeavour, of course, to find out the answer.

But on the question of the tainted meat, I think that is a serious ouestion which is deserving of an answer. I had heard in the past few days - '-IP.. mTRPITY: That is unto the public dogs. •m. FELLS: - that - I will try again. MR. "MURPHY: I am sorry. MR. WF.LLS: I have heard, you know, that some people were worried or concerned lest there had been tainted meat from the sources in Ouehec from, you know, who sell this or have been selling this in the ,ast, that had come into Newfoundland.

Particularly there was an inquiry received by me from the news media as to whether any of this had found its way into Labrador City. The Department of Health jnspector was going to Labrador City and he was given specific instructions to check on this most carefully. He did check and found that none of the meat in Labrador City emanated from any of the firms that were suspected or known to have sold tainted meat in the past.

And that all of the meat in the Labrador City , area came from recognized firms such as Swifts and Canada Packers, and therefore there was nothing at all to any rumours which might have been going around about in Labrador City. ;"'R- NEARY· Any horse meat down there? Not to our knowledge. Apparently it was all brought it, through recognized firms, as I say, Swifts and Canada Packers. There have been no suggestion at any time that there has been any tainted meat probably in the Island of Newfoundland. So I think it 6930

June 17, 1975 Tape 2356 (Morning) PK - 3 is quite proper to reassure the puhlic on that point, Mr. Speaker. MR. MURPHY: eating them. MR. SPEAKER: Only in the sausages and the puddings, Jam not nrder, please! ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker, could we just revert to Notice of '.>'lotions so we can give notice of several motions. MR. SPEAKF.R: ~otion7 Is it agreed by leave to revert back to Notice of SOME HON. UEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. MR. CROSBIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Fisheries to ask leave to introduce a bill, YAn.

Act To Revise Existing Legislation Respectinr, The Fishing Industry Advisory Board.,. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Finance. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Finance to ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Awarding Of An Increase Of Pensions To Or In Respect To Certain Employees Of The Government Of Newfoundland, Certain Teachers And Certain Members Of The House Of Assembly." MR. ROBERTS: 1.IR. F.ARLE : MR. ROBERTS: }!R. CROSBIE: AN HON. MEMBER: HR. ROBERTS: Members of the House of Assembly? Certain members. What do you mean, certain? Committee, Mr. Speaker. Better carry that. Sit down'.

It is in order, normally. On first reading it is in order to ask for an explanation. Could the Minister of Finance indicate l.•hat pensions are to be raised for Members of the House of Assembly? MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, this act will be explained, of course, when it is presented. But it is only the tidying up of the increases in pensions. So they apply to ex-members of the House of Assembly who are now under pension. MR. ROBERTS: But they are in a different plan altogether. 6931

June 17, 1975 Tape 2356 (Morning) PK - 4 IW. ,:_F,~E: Yes, they have - this is where this particular aspect of the hill comes in. Some of them, I think , the war services, in connection with war services some of them were involved in. 6932

June 17, 1975 Tape no. 2357 Page 1 - _. KR. ROBERTS: Mr, Speaker, if I might: Is this in effect a bill to •end the House of Assembly Pensions Act, which is the act under which members are paid pensions. KR. HICKMAN: No: KR. EARLE: No, no, KR. ROBERTS: That is the only act on which a;member can draw a pension in respect of his service as a llember. If he served as a public servant or as a teacher well then he would get - but that has nothing to do with his service as a member. HR. EARLE: War service. MR. SPEAICER: Order, please! Are there any other notices of motion? MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Municipal Affairs, I give notice that he will on tomorrow ask leave of the Bouse to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The COIBUnity Councils Act, 1972," and "To Amend The Local Government Act, 1972." That is all, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. CROSBIE: Bill No. 66 (Regulation of Kines). MR. SPFAJ::!R: The Hon. Member for Bell Island, I think, adjourned the debate last night. MR. REARY: Yes, Kr. Speaker. I pretty well covered what I wanted to say about this particular bill, Sir.

I vant to cangratulate the inister for bringing in this amendlllent to the Regulation of Mines Act. This particular minister seems to be very sensitive and very conscious, safety conscious, Sir, and I would say that that is a good thing. The inister has the knack of surrounding himself with good advisers, good staff,and the only weakness that I saw in the llinister was that yesterday when he was introducing this he was not forceful enough, you know, to suit to my lilting. The minister has to learn the art of debating in the House and aaking - MR. BAllY: The House Leader has got me under strict control. HR.

NEAB.Y: The wd.nister, Sir, is a saart aan, he is a •art fellow, 6933

June 17, 1975 Tape no. 2357 Page l - av he is a !llllart cookie, but he has to learn how to get his point across in the House very forcibly. This is the weakness in the minister and he is leaming, he is coming along, he is learning, The minister is learning. But yesterday this is what atI"Uck me, it was the sort of weakness in the arguaent although I do not question the sincerity of the minister, I think he was quite sincere in his remarks but I would have liked to - because there should be no loopholes, there should be no weakness in this legislation at all, Sir.

The minister and his officials should be vatchdogs,night and day watching over these hot spots, if you want to put it that way, where we have occupational hazards such as you have in Long Harbour, Yesterday I referred to a report that I had once either seen or was told about - I 811 not quite sure - where it was re~ended that the whole po'Pulation be 110ved out of Long Barbour because of the pollution and the health hazards fro- the phosphorus plant. Now I do not know if this is correct or not, but it is aoiaething that really should be looked at very carefully.

Because, Sir, the vegetation, the trees are dying in the area, The birds and the bees are dying, HR. MURPHY: The cigarette trees, HR, DOODY: How come it did not stop your buzzing, MR, NEARY: That is right, Sir, the whole countryside is being affected, and it has to, Mr. Speaker, affect the health of the people, MR. ROBERTS: It is beginning to look like Sudbury. There are no trees around Sudbury, not for miles. MR, NEARY: That is right. Nov that is one of the real bad situations in the Province.

But I think the other real bad one, if not equally as bad it is certainly a pretty close second and that is Bale Verte, the asbestos situation in Baie Verte. Mr. Speaker, so far there has been no evidence in Baie Verte of asbestosis. I hope there never will be, But, Sir, I am very concerned about it. I am very concerned about the men, wcmen and children who live in the community of Baie Verte. Because, Sir, I would say the miners who 6934

June 17, 1975 Tape no. 2357 Page 3 - mw are actually digging up the asbestos are safer than the people who live in the comaunity. Row that may sound like a strange statement but asbestos fibres are light, you cannot see thea with the naked eye,.and they blow around. And I would say, Sir, that there , are a lot •Of li.ttle fibres , millions and millions and millions and billions of fibres in the air blowing from the tailings pile, whicll is three miles away fTOIII the comaunity, by the way.

And you can go down there and park your car, when the wind is in a certain direction, and get up in the IIOrt)ing and it is like a heavy dew on the windshield of the car, the asbestos, the little fibres on the windshiled of the car. I do not know i.f the minister has ever seen that or not. And this i11 going dOWli into the lungs of the men, w•en and children in that c-ity. And as far as I - concerned, Sir, it is something that has to be watched 6935

June 17, 1q75_ Tape 2358 RH - 1 verv carefully. Not only will you find as they have found over in Ashestos City I think it is in Quebec, is it, where sixty per cent of the - MR. ROBERTS: Thetford Mines. MR. NV.ARY: - sixty per cent of the workers were suffering from ashestosis. But it can affect the men, women and children in the coMmunitv and - 'lR. 13ARRY: ~T-. N1'Ar.Y: •qt. Rlll\ERTS : - en Francais I beg your pardon? Well, the honourable gentleman oppol!lite can speak en Francais but we prefer to communicate with our electorate. MR.

NEARY: And so we cannot afford, Sir,= cannot afford to be negli~ent in this very, very important matter. I am only raising thesf' points. I know the minister is conscious of what I am saying. I nm aware of that. But there are members of the Rouse, maybe of the general public who are not as sensitive as probably the minister and myself,because I was born and raised and worked in a mining cof'lmun:f tv. I worked with DOSCO for twenty-one years and I lost mv ioh when th!! mine closed, Sir. I do not know if Your Honour i.s aware of that or not. Then there is the matter of silicosis ar,a i n. MR.

BARRY: Then into politics . I her, your pardon? - It was a great day, Sir. As it hapnened I was a member of the House when I lost my job. Then I became R full-time politician. But this matter of silicosis, Sir, is becoming increasingly difficult, increasingly important matter that we are p,oing to have to watch very carefully and we all know now the results down in Labrador City. I do not if anybody has ever sec,n a miner with silicosis or not.

I remember once I knew a man, and after he died they did an autopsy on him to see what he died with and it was assumed that he died with silicosis, His lungs were four times the l••eip:ht of what they should have been,and this is what happens. Your lunr;i, get corroded and it keeps building up and building up and it does not hapoen overnight. It takes years. This is why we 6936

June 17, 1975. Tape 2358 have to maintain a close watch now because maybe five, ten, fifteen years you will find asbestosis,or you will find people dying in Long Harbour or in that plant in Long Harbour. You know, Hr. Speaker, the employees, the employees should be watching this themselves because sometimes,and I hate to have to say this, the employees themselves are a little hit too careless.

I am told about, I am told about a programme that they had on one of these projects that I mentioned,and I will not sav which one it was, where every day because of the health hazard, every day employees in a certain part of the mill had to have a blood test and an urine analysis. They had to get the security ro force the employees to go and take these blood tests and to pass in tests of their urine. One smart aleclt employee substituted tea for his urine. How can the company in a case li}e that, Sir, carry out its obligation and its responsibility?

It is the res~onsibility llll - 2 of the company to educate its employees,and maybe that is where they fall down on the joh. Hut certainly, Sir, the employees of these companies should be educated in the dangers and the hazardous conditions under which they are working. You know, Mr. Speaker, I heard the minister yesterday,and I heard the minister several times say, well, you can reduce the heaJth hazard, reduce it. Now, I do not know, Sir, what is meant by that. As far as I am concerned it should be eliminated entirely. '4R. BARRY: It cannot he done. MR. NEARY: No, well, the minister says it cannot be done.

Well, Sir, it reminds me if you had a car with four bad tires on it,and you put ,on three brand new tires and left one bad one on, you could go out on the Trans-Canada Highway and p.;et killed. The car is still a safety hazard. As far as I am concerned, Sir, if vou cannot eliminate, if you cannot eliminate the health hazards and peoples lives are at stake and people are going to die, that kind of an industry, bulldoze it out in the Atlantic Ocean and get rid of it. Maybe that it is what should happen to phosphorus plant. ~aybe we should send the bulldozers down there. I do not know. 693(

June 17, 1975. Tape 2358 RR - 3 Maybe I am over-reacting, I 3lll tc,o emotiona1. MR. "URPRV: About seven years behind the t:lllle. That is all. NR.. NEARY: Who is seven years behlnd the dine? MR. MDRPllt: 'l'be honou~ahle __,l'!T: MR. NEARY: No• Sir, I am not seven yea,rs beld11d the time. I have alV<1ys - §OP-!F. HON. MEHBERS: Oh. ob! }'R. NEARY: I have alvays felt - MR. MIJBPIIY.: Ve vere cner there ad listened to you. MR. l!IHARY: I h.tve always felt, Sir - Bot even if I - se'Vell years behind the t:lme, we have an adain:f.stration now that is c;c,mmitted to rectUyi.ng these 6938

June 17, 1975 Tar,e ;135q (Morning) PK - 1 matters, and I think the minister is doing the best he can. Mr. Speaker, now before I take my seat there is one other - I have dealt enough now witl the safety aspect of it, and J again want to tell the minister that without hesitation that I personally support this bill. I think it is a v,ood piece of legislation. It is a good amendment, and one of the better pieces of legislation that has come before this session of the Hous e .

There is another interesting aspect to the bill, and that is in the explanatory note, the bill would amend the principle act to expand the definition of'mine 1 when used as a noun or a verh to include mills and plants in which minerals are processed and so forth, and chambers for industrial purpose, for example, rehahilitation of the abandoned Mines on Rell Island fQr oil storage. Well I hope, Sir, that members of this honourable House will give that

section of the bill unanimous approval. AN RON. 'MEMBER: Hear! Jlear ! MR. NEARY: I am all for it, Sir. It is something - MR. DOODY: For the good of mankind. MR. NEARY: - it is something that is dear to my heart. It is something that I initiated several years ago, and the former adudnistration, and had Golden F..agle carry out a study at the time to see if the mine was suitable for storing oil. And I have tried desperately, Sir, and I hope that the - MR. DOODY: The first we heard r,f it. MR. NF.ARY: Pardon? - - --,- MR. DOODY: It is news to us. MR. NEARY: What? MR. BARRY: I did not lcnow th•t. MR.

NF..A'R.Y: What? MR. BARRY: About the study. MR. NEARY: Golden Eagle did a study on - KR. BARRY: Really did? ifR. NEARY: Golden Eagle,really they did. I mean,that is not nolitics,that is a fact. Golden Eagle did a study on the possibility

June 17, 1975 Tape 2359 (Morning) PK - 2 of storing oil in that mine. 1m. OOODY: You decided it was better to grow mushrooms? ~m._ NEARY: No, Sir, there was just no interest at the time. The situation has changed considerably because of the energy crisis, the oil crisis in the world, offshore drilling, and all this sort of thing. MR. HICKMAN: You tell them'. MR. NEARY: ----- Mr. Speaker, I can tell you the precise time, Sir, that they were considering putting oil and storing oil in the Rell Island mine. It was when that ship( what was her name? J went North, you remember,to Alaska. MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: MR.

YOUNG: MR. NEARY: t-lR. MAYNARD: !IR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: !~. NEARY: ------ The "!-!anhatten. The Manhatten. The Norma and Gladys. No,not The Norma and Gladys, The Manhatten. The Norma and Gladys - her. The Manhatten, Sir, was on her way and - Was not a NewfoundlandeT captain on her? The Manhatten was on her way and stuck in the ice, and the hir, problem '!,7as if this experiment was a success they would brinr, the oil down from up North and put it in a place like Bell Island and then transship it in smaller ships, and this is why they were taking a look at Bell Island.

It is not the first time that this concept has arisen,believe me. But I am glad that it has come up again because we have desperately tried to find a use for the abandoned Bell Island mines. God only knows, Mr. Speaker, that I have out enough time, punched in enough time trying to find a use for that mine, including growing mushrooms in it, Sir, which members noke fun at, which was not such a bad idea,by the way, a labour -- Mll.

ROBERTS: HP .• NEARY: We would have had more jobs than they conld ever - It would create more jobs if it went ahead - and we could not get the co-operation of the government - it was labour intensive. It would create more jobs than that crowd have created in t~ree years 1 believe it or not. Rut they think because its 6940

June 17, 1975 Tape 2359 (Morning) PK - 3 growing mushrooms it is funny. But it is not so funny. It was proven bevond any doubt that it could be done. The pilot project was a tremendous success. It did not cost the taxpayers of this Province one cent. It did not cost the government one penny, the pilot project. It was done by the Ontario Mushroom Company, the Bell Island Development Association, and it cost me a few dollars out of my o~m pocket.believe it or not. But I did not mind doing it.

If we had gotten any co-operation from the Department of Agriculture or from the government, the Department of Industrial Development or anybody at all that project would have r,otten off the ground. And, Mr. Speaker, we talked about a mining museum similar to the one over in Cape Breton when they abandoned the coal mines over there. MR. ROWE: Taking in thousands of dollars there now. MR. NEARY: And attracting tourists, Sir, from all over the world and making thousands and thousands of dollars every year creating a few jobs. Could not get the first base on that one!

The ~linister of Mines and Energy,l believe,l)awned me off on the Minister of Tourism and the ~inister of Tourism pawned me off on the National Historic Sites and I got the run-around. I never got to first base, got completely frustrated. I have not ahandoned the project, Sir, I still think it is a good idea. All the items, all the pieces of equipment, everythinr, 6941

June 17, 1975. Tape 2360 RH - 1 in connection with mining on Bell Island scattered around Conception Bay in the homes of men that used to work on Bell Island, on Bell Island itself, should be all collected and put in a mining museum on the Island. Go down a couple of hundred yards, down number four ¥ain Slope and turn it into a tourist attraction so that the tourists can come in dressed up in their oilskins, put on their miners hat ,md their lamp and their belt and walk down. They love, tourists love going underground and exploring caverns and canyons. MR. BARRY: t'R.. NEARY: Relevancy?

Pardon? - This is changing the mine. It is. Going down a few hundred yards, buying a souvenirs, having a cup of coffee. ~IR. BARRY: MR. NEARY: That is in the explanatory notes. It is not in the bill. It is not in the bill. Well, why is it in the explanatory notes if it is not in the bill? MR. BARRY: It is an example. HR. NEARY: Pardon? MR. BARRY: Example. ~•fl.. NEARY: Example'? MR. MAYNARD: For some: Ml. NEARY: But anyway, Sir, MR. DOODY: Get on with it. MR. NEARY: I am using it as an example, Mr. Speaker. It is a great idea, Sir, great idea.

It is something that I, as I say, I have heen pushing for a good many years. Mr. Speaker, I will go as far as to say this,and I want the honourable the Premier - I am sure he is interested in this- that the day will come, Mr. Speaker, the day will come when there will be mining on Bell Island again 1 when the properties in the world are exhausted, when it becomes more expensive to get the ore out of some of these properties, when they get cut off for economic or other reasons, I would say - }<R. PECKFORD : Fifteen years. HR. NEJ..RY: Yes, fifteen years. Then the world's supply of iron ore is rapidly dwindling.

I would say twenty, twenty-five, thirty 6942

June 17, 1975. Tape 23~0 rrn - 2 years from now they will be mining iron ore on Bell Isl~nd again. Do you know, Mr. Speak.er, that DOSCO - MR. DOODY: Did vou not have a contract on the ~remier's desk one time? MR. NEARY: That contract was there, just the same as the sweep that was run in the stadium hy my opponent, was there. When oosr.o pulled out of Bell Island, Sir, they had proven fifteen years suppJv of ore in the ground, fifteen years sunplv. MR. ROBERTS: No question of a shortage of ore. MR. NEARY: No, there is all kinds of ore out under roncept1nn Bay. MR. YOUNG: What kind of ore? Ml.

NEARY: I beg your pardon? It is hematite - MR. ROBERTS: It is the wrong kind of iron ore - MR. NEARY: The quality - yes, the high phosphorus, high silica content. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, I forecast now that the day will come again Sir, when the companies will be )':Oing back and diggi~ out that ore. But in the meantillle we have to find an alternative. We just cannot sit back and wait for twenty-five or thirty or thirty-five years when they start mining there again. MR. ROBERTS: A typical Torv approach. MR. NEARY: What we have to do is find another use for the abandoned mine.

The other day, yesterdav, I think, I was asking the minister if he invited himself over to Vrance or if the company invited him over. I vas quite sincere. That tr.ts not - MR. DOODY: Ah yes! You were trying to get in a di)':! MR. NEARY: No, I certainly was not, Sir, hecause if the minister invited himself, well then, that only proves that the minister is trying to do a selling job, ~mich is a pretty good thing.

If the company invited the minister to go over, or the minister may have needed a holiday, I do not knov, but if the company invited the minister over that would be a different matter because it lo!Ould show that they are interested. The minister is not just playing politics because Bell Island, the col'llllUJlitv, is going to be a

part 694-3

June 17, 1975 Tape 2360 RH - 3 of his new district of Harbour Main - Bell Island. MR. DOODY: First concession, Your Honour. MR. NEARY: What is the first concession? I did not put the redistribution bill through the House. I voted against it. I think Bell Island should be - MR. BARRY: You are conceding the election to him already, are you? MR. NEARY: No, no, no, no, Hr. - MR. YOUNG: But you conceded it. MR. NEARY: No, I said - what I said, Mr. - yes, it is my district too.

But what I said was that I hope that the mini.seer is not just playing politics, trying to get a little mileage because if he was, Sir, that would be very cruel indeed. But in the meantime, the possibility is there and it is a good idea to change the legislation if we have to, to find another use for the mines, abandoned mines, like the Bell Island mine.

I would also like to see in the bill, Sir, an amendment that would compel mining c0111panies, no matter what part of this Province they are in, to fill in some of these holes that they create and then pull out like they have on Bell Island. 'We have got some very hazardous conditions on Bell Island, rock piles •11 over the place that are eyesores, holes full of water, dams. DOSCO should have been made fill them in before they pulled out. MR. DOODY: Who was in power then? MR. NEARY: I was not. AN HON. MEMBER: No. MR. NEARY: I think we had a 6944

June 17 • 1975 Tape no. 2361 Page 1 - mw T?ry there for eight years. Sir. The first representative we had in this House after Confederat ion for eight years was a Tory representative for Bell Is l and. MR. ROBERTS: Then we had Mr . Richard J. Greene. MR. NEARY: Oh, yes, we h.ad a Tory for twelve years, eleven or twelve years representing Bell Island. It was only when they changed Liberal over there, Sir, and l they ~ot a good member that things started to happen, that we got a vocational school and a hospital and road paving, water and sewera ge , make-ork projects, greenhouses . My God!

I ~ould go on and on and on. MR. DOODY: And still you coul d not save enough. MR. NEARY: By 1971 Bell Is land was more prosperous than in the DOSCO heyday. MR. SPF.AKER (Mr. Stagg): Order• please! MR. DOODY: Excuse me, Your Honour, I am carried away with my new district. MR. CBAIRMAR (Kr. Stagg) : lfbe honourable gentlemen have succeeded in sidetracking one another. 111-e question of relevance is pertinent at this point. MR. ROBERTS: Only at this point, Your Honour? MR. HEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I am going to wind down now by ask.ing all meabers of this House to give this bill their unan:laous approval on behalf of the Minister of Mines and Energy. I am so overwhelmed and overcome with this piece of legislation that I cannot help but get .-otionally carried away• Sir, because of my background and my association with a •ining c-untty.

I hope that the Minister of Health will participate in the debate and tell us whether there is any merit to ay suggestion that ~erything in connection with safety, whether it is mines or in •ills or in pellet plants be put under one department, under the Minister of Mines and Energy's Department. Take it away from the Workmen's Compensat ion Board, the Labour Department, the Health Department, put it \111 under one bead. I think that way they can work more effectively and aore efficiently. So ve are all for it, at least I-• Sir. I - all for this bill. I want to congratulate

June 17, 1975 Tape no. 2361 Page 2 - - the minister for bringing it in, and I would like to see more legislation like this brought into this honourable Bo11Se. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): The Hon. Minister of Health. HR. WELLS: Mr. Speaur, a few words on this. Obviously I think everybody in this House will support this bill . It is a necessary and good piece of legislation. There aay be soae peripheral side effects to the bill,such as oil storage for abandoned mines, and it may well be a very good thing but the remarks I would aake would be on the health aspect, the whole question of industrial health.

The member for Bell Island is correct, I think, in much that he said on this bill. But particularly I think that Newfoundlanders historically have not been concerned with safety atters. I think this is true with the fishing industry where people have ignored safety, our fishermen in small boats. It is a brave attitude, perhaps, but it is also a non-realistic one, and I think this bas been carried over to industrial work when even the regulations that plants sought to bring into force that very often have been disregarded by the people who work in them.

And I think this is an historical note in this whole matter of regulations. I have to go further and say that I think it is common knowledge in Newfoundland that some of the more recent industrial plants,by recent I mean in the last twenty-four or twenty-five years,have not given the concern to safety that they ought to have given.

And I think it is also fair to make the point in this House of Assembly that some of the results of industrial plants and careless safety practices, especially as regards fibres and dust in the atomsphere which can affect people's lungs,that some of these we all know do not show up until five, ten and fifteen years later. There is the greatest danger, Mr. Speaker, If you go out in a fishing boa~ and you are in danger at least when you get ashore that evening or at the end of that week or whenever it is the danger is over.

But if you are breathing dust and fibres and other substances, which can do harm to your body,the dreadful thing is that you aay not find out what harm you have done until five, ten or fifteen or twenty years have passed. 6946

June 17 • 1975 'l'ape no. 2361 Page 3 -- And that is a very serious position. So to put the aatter b-ciefly, Kr. Speaker, the policy of the govertment is that wherever possible and in all respects it is going to a,ve toward even greater safety 11tandards. I think we all recognize tbis is necessary. The. D~artment of Health advertised I I thin:k it was baclt,I have been told, back around Christmas or Januaey, advertised for a man, I an not sure what the title would be ,but a aan to put in charge of oceupational health, a aan whose duty it WQuld be, 6947

June 17, 1<175 Tape 2362 (Morning) 1dth whatever staff it would be necessary to provide him with, to ~o around Newfoundland to find out and monitor the hazards, to fjnd out w~ere hazards exist or to confirm where we might suspect hazards to exist and to do something about it.

I have already said in the department in the brief time PK - 1 t 11at I have heen there that finding such a man, and I gathered tr.at there were no responses to the advertisement, well I feel, and I intend to pursue this matter further and to make it a matter of some priority so that we can advertise again and get the proper man, and ~ive him the proper staff because it is something that cannot be neglected.

And a mine or an installation may appear today to he nerfectly safe, yet nonetheless have the seeds of damage to people who are workinr; in it which may not really come to light for another ten or fifteen years,And we owe it, of course, to the neople whom we represent to do the best possible job in determining where potential, actual or potential hazards exist and determining Phat ought to be done about them and to do it, So that is our policy, Mr. Speaker, and that is a policy that I can assure this House and this Province will be pursued ~ri th vigor.

And such a person will be advertised for and employed as soon as nossible and given this job to do. And, of course, we will ensure that he does it, and that his staff is provided for him to do it properly. On the question, of course, raised by the honourable Member for Bell Island as to whether or not this all ought to be under one head, perhar,s it should, perhaps j_t should be under one department, vhatever department it is,that can do that and have sole responsibility for it, and perhaps that might he a more efficient way of doing it than to have three or four departments involved.

And there is no ouestion in my mind that this is something that can be taken a look at, But rather than waiting to make a decision on that I nurnose, Mr. Speaker, and we propose . to go ahead, to get this Director of Occupational and Industrial Health, and second, to work as soon as we nossihly can find the man so that the problems can 6948

June 17, 1975 Tape 2362 (Morning) be identified and steps can be taken at the earlieFt possible moment to rertify them . And so, of course, as with most members of thd.s House I have no hesitation in supporting this bill which is timely in every respect. MR. NEARY: Hear ! Hear! MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. PK - 2 "'IR. ROBERTS: Thank you, ~r. Sneaker. I do not intend to be very long, but there are one or two points which I wish to make with respect to the bil1 1 or more importantly to the matters wh:lch grow out of the bill.

And like the honourable members who have spoken before me I have no hesitation, indeed I take a great deal of nleasure in saying this is a bill which not only should get unanimous support but I believe will get unanimous support. But the dehate in the House today has heen far more importance than the narrow material of the bill itself. The bill, you know, as far as it goes is a fairly unimportant piece of legislation taken only on its four corners.

But, of course, it bas led to a far more :important discussion and one which, I think, is entirely relevant to the subject of the bill or Your Honour would not have permitted it to go on, but one which is of great importance to this Province. Now I am particularly interested in a number of aspects of the educational, no, I am sorry, of the occupational aspect, the occupational health aspect. The gentleman from Bell Island, the gentleman from St. John's South, the Minister of Health 1 have both referred to this,and I do not intend to go over what they have said.

But I would like to speak for a moment or two about the asbestos situation, because I have long been growing increasingly convinced that we are facing a potential, and potential may not be the right word, I think we are facing an actual threat to health at Baie Verte. Potential employs that it may or may not come about. But I think we are facing an actual threat to health. The only question is, how bad it is or how bad it may become if nothing is to be done? 6949

June 17 1975 Tape 2362 {Morning) PK - 3 Now, Mr. Speaker, the Baie Verte operatior:i is an asbestos mine, it is an open pit mine. It is exactly analogous in its method of operation to the Thetford Mines operation, or if the Hon. Minister of Ener.gy w;mts to put it en francais as he told us earlier, the Thetford Mines, but - the Thetford Mines, the Johns-Manville operations in Quebec, the site,by the way,of that famous strike. that great social event the asbestos~strike where Mr, Trud .eau and Mr. Marchand and Mr.

Pelletier were the prime adv:Jsors of the union, al,though that was twenty years, twenty-f:l.w years ago now. Some time ago the CNTU, the union which represents the men employed at the Thetford Mines, the same union, tha.t represents the men at St. Lawrence, 6950

June 17, 1975 Tape no. 2363 Page 1 - _ , and I do not think it is any coincidence that the one outpost of the CMTU I think outside Quebec - I - not aware they are certified in respect of any local outside the Province of Quebec - throne outpost, the one union local that they have outside Quebec is the Al.can operation at St. Lawrence. Nov, of course, the initial reason for <.:NTU coaing there, as I understand it, was that Al.can is a Quebec based coapany and their operations are in Quebec with big operations at Arvida and it aiuf.e s«-e sense,since all of the output of St.

Lmnence is sent to the Al.can Quebec operations for use in the aaelting of boxite into alu.inua,it aade soae sense to have the aaae union representing thea. But, Sir, the connection and the health aspects should not be overlooked becauae the CIITU,very auch in the tradition of European unioniaa as opposed to the Borth Aaerican or the British varlety,they are very auch -,re concerned with social questions and occ-..ational health questions and non-econoalc questions than are the North Aaerican unions.

The Borth .Aaerican unions historically - it is a spinoff,I think ..frma the United liDgdoa situation - tended to be concerned aainly with econoaic questions. The CllTO, dra11ing on the European tradition are ..ich more concerned with occupational health questions. Solletille ago they retained an organization in Bev York State, in Rev Torlt City, in fact, to do an investigation on the asbestosis situation or the effects, the health effects of the sining operation in Quebec, in Thetford Mines. And this docuaent has DOif becoae public.

The only copy of it I have been able to obtain at this stage is en route to Hevfoondland but I - told that it is in Prench and thus of little practical value to ae.But I understand it is available in English, and I will get it, and I think the Minister of Health would want to see it and the Minister of Hines Bild Energy would want to see it if cbey have not already got it. Ill. JWIRT: Yea, yea. Is that Dr. Selikoff's MR. llOIIEllTS: Yea, yea, Dr. Selikoff's study. 6951

June 17, 1975 Tape no. 2363 Page 2 -- Nov the report shove, I - told - I am going on news reports and second-hand reports - shows quite conclusively that there is an asbestos-caused health probl- in Thetford Mines today. Nov that in itself should be enough, Sir, to put us very auch on our guard. But, Sir, I think. ve can go further than that. I have been in touch vith Dr. Selikoff himself.

In fact ,I was iD touch with hi.a soae little while ago because, as Your Honour will recall , I have raised this aatter in the House a mnber of t:l.aes, In fact while I vas Health Kini.9ter I raised the -tter, and if the Kinister of Health and the Kinister of Mines go back. to their files they vill find,I - sure,copies of memoranda exchanged between the then Minister of Kines, Kr. Villi• Callahan, and ayself, and we were not able to resolve the issue.

Indeed, perhaps, the inister in closing this debate could speak. to this point whether the issue has been resolved because there vas a very real issue between what I saw to be the responsibilities of the Minister of Health and what the Minister of Kines saw to be his responsibility. Quite briefly, Kr. Speaker, it vent on for w,nths and with soae extreaely heated -randa back. and forth,and our deputy inisters at the time, Kr. Gover on the Kine's side and Dr.

Killer on the Health side~sort of tried to aoderate the difference of opinion and tried to resolve the dispute, It was not resolved vhen ve left office, I hope it has been resolved since. And if so the minister could perhaps tell us just how. But the basic dispute was quite simple, I took. the position,which I still think is the correct one, Mr, Speak.er, that the Health Department has a respon•ibility in occupational health as of the moment an operation begins.

The position talc.en by the Mines Department essentially,and taken in good faith,was that the Health Department's responsibilities began only when a problem emerged, And I say, no, that that is not acceptable, that we know nov there ay be a problem at Baie Verte. We know nov there may be a problem at Long Harbour. We know now that there may be a problem in Labrador Vest, In fact there are problems in all three but I do not think we have to wait. I think that is what happened at St. Lawrence. More than any other cause, single cause, of the tragedy at St. Lawrence in the years from 6952

June 17, 1975 Tape no. 2363 -Page 3 - lllW about 1935 until 1959-1960 w~n it began to be realized and accepted by those :lD authority, more than anything else the fact that nobody was strictly responsible for ensuring the occupational health,or ensuring that the healtJi of aen worlcing in those operatlotis was guarded againat occupational consideration&. So a couple of years ago1 in. _.., event.to taake a short atoq 6953

.Tune 17, 1975. Tape 2364 RR - 1 a little longer, Mr. Speaker, I was in touch with Doctor Selikoff. Now, the minister is familiar with him, the Minister of Health maybe, but many honourable members are not. But quite briefly Doctor Irving J. Selikoff is head of the Division of Environmental Medicine at the City University - now that is the City University of New York - City University's Mount Sinai School of Medicine, Director of its Environmental Sciences Laboratory and a pioneer in the field of modern asbestosis - asbestos, I am sorry, epidemiology which I am told is sort of the study of health factors really.

It'is a verv big cUl!lbersome Greek wo:t'II which I have difficulty prono1mcing, Rut that is essentially what it is. So, I was in touch with Doctor Selikoff. He sent me some information. He also sent me a letter which I think possibly would bring the matter to a point, so I will read the relevant portions of it. I wrote to him as an individual, as Leader of the Opposition, but as an individual citizen. We have raised the matter a number of times in the House. It has been discussed before in this current Honse of Assembly but never at the length we have today.

We had a very fine speech by my friend and colleague from Bell Island. We had a very good speech from the Health Minister,and the Energy 'finister touched upon it and I have no doubt will again when he closes the debate in a few minutes. But I wrote to Doctor Selikoff and I told him we have an operation in Baie Verte, an open-pit asbestos mining operation, that I had heard a little of his work, that I wafl wondering whether he could tell us, tell me whether there was any possibility of anything going wrong or whether it was 1ust somethinp, that we did not need to be worried about.

Well, h:! s reason comes back, 1' Dear Mr. Roberts: My apologies for the delay in answering your letter. In the press of urgent matters (the po~sible asbestos hazard associated with contamination of the Duluth water supply) my staff placed your letter in what was meant II to i,e for urgent review hut which only recently came to my notice. He 17.oes on, 11 And I believe you have reason for concern. Studies 6954

June 17, 1975. Tape 2364 P-ll - 2 curr 7ntly in progress in the Quebec asbestos mining area,sponsored and supported by the Quebec Asbestos ~•ining Association - now, that is a trade association, employers'association -''have demonstrated that more heavily exposed workers have had fivea times the lung cancer death rate of those more lightly exposed.

In very large part, these were open pit mines.'' "l<'ive times the death rate - whatevc>r the odds are of Your Honour as a school teacher and as a sometime politician, dying of lung cancer, they would be five times, five times greater in an open pit operation, a very significant indicator indeed. He goes on, Sir, "Asbestosis, Jung scarring, including fatal disease has been found among the workers studied. Doctor J.C.

Macnonald,who was directing this study,believes that there -J.s less serious disease among the miners than among asbestos factorv workers or asbestos insulation workers,however: 0 And this is a point made by my colleague. The very serious - it is a fear. I do not - the problem is I do not know whether it is justified or not,hut the very serious fear is the one my colleague outlined,and it is a very valid one, that asbestos is an insidious little thing, Sir. It is a marvellous material. It is fireproof. Indeed, it is probably essential in the modern world the way we live and work now.

But those little fibres can get carried a long distance by winds and by drafts and they can affect not just people working in mines. You know, for all the tradgedy at St. Lawrence, that incredibly harsh human tradgedy which the men in St. Lawrence suffered, it was only the men in the mine who suffered. I am told men working on the surface have not contracted the radiation diseases at St. Lawrence, if thev had never been exposed in the mines. Certainly, I have heard no suggestion ever, Mr. Speaker, that people in the community of St. Lawrence were exposed to radiation hazards.

It "-'3.S the men who "rorked in the mines. With asbestos, Mr. Speaker, it is not confined, the threat is not confined to the mine 6955

June 17, 1975. Tape 2364 lm - 3 workers. It could apply to anybody 1n the area including in particular people living in the area. Now. Doctor Selikoff goes on. "My own studies have been la1:gely concerned ~t!t workers in industry, not in mittes. Among thenl as~stos exposure has resulted in serious loss of life from cancer and asbestosis. 'My only investigations cf open-pit crystalite " asbestos miners - now, I do not know eJU>ugh about geology, I do not le.now whether the ones in Baie Verte are - l: am sorry, chrysotile, trot chrysollte, chrysotile asbestos. But I assUDII! there ia only one or tl-10 compounds in which asbestos is found in an ore; 6956

June 17, 1975 Tape 2365 (Morning) PK - 1 the mineral asbestos, but in any event his work was with chrysotile asbestos miners, and that was undertaken among workers at an open-pit mine in California where he examine1 clinically and by x-ray some sixty-five such miners. The results were worrisome, 11 I had not expected:'nr.

Selikoff says, "to find much disease since the mine and mill were in operation a little over twelve years." Now Baie Verte has been in operation a little over - it was open, Sir, in the Summer of 1965, we are now in the tenth or eleventh year of operation :·at Baie Verte. 11 With the high rate of turnover in employment most of the individuals examined had only had five years or so of exposureJ That is another point, Mr. Speaker, you do not need a long period of exposure, as a matter of fact there is some evidence in the clinical literature 1and Dr.

Selikoff sent me a certain amount of it here, one or two years of exposure to these fibres may be enough to cause - it is an insidious, it is a terrible substance in the health sense. He goes on, 6 yet a significant number had x-ray changed consistent with asbestosis. I was surprised, " because, in general, - and this is another important point, Hr. ,, Speaker, asbestos disease does not generally make its appearance until some time has passed from the onset of exposure. Little is " seen in five years, somewhat more at ten.

Now again a comment I would make, and I will CODle back to this because I think this is the key comment, that the disease does not show up in many cases for periods of ten, fifteen or twenty years beyond exposure. And the mere fact that we may not have discovered that none may have occurred now does not in itself say that the men who have been exposed and the people who have been exposed to those conditions are not suffering from a disease. And once the exposure is made, Mr.

Speaker, the disease follows inevitably, You know, it is not a matter of chance,as I understand it. 11 Little is seen in five years, somewhat more at ten. Lung cancer, 11 there is a word here that I am not sure I can, it is'mesothelioma,' Does anybody opposite want to take a crack at pronouncing it? 6957

June 17, 1<>75 Tape 2365 (Morning) PK - 2 MR. BARRY: Mesothelioma. •m. RORER TS: Well ,I thank the minister• That is about what ·1 would say lt is something like it, meso - it is too bad the gentleman from Carbonear is not here or the gentleman from Humber East. nut anyway mesothelioma, whatever it is, that is the actual cancer. It is an~• form of cancer they have only recognized in the last very few years, and it is the asbestos-caused cancer. Anvwav lung cancer," that asbestos-caused cancer and severe asbestosis usuallv do not occur until twenty or thirty years have past following " the initial insult.

That is a very good use for that word by the way, the initial insult. 110f course,' 1 nr. Selikoff says"I have no way of knowing whether the conditions of the California mine and mill were worse or better than those which obtained in Newfoundland, and it is therefore imnossihle to say whether our findings there can be used as a guide to the evaluation of risk in the J.M. Newfoundland operations. 11 Well that is a very fair comment for him to make. (I \I He goes on, !our question - my question-"concerning the risk in later years is perceptive and correctly pointed. Analysis unrlertaken by my colleague, Dr. F..

Qualler-Rammond, Director of the Department of Statistics at the American Cancer Society, demonstrated that the risk is precisely in these later years. Amonr. ashestos installatiol} workers and asbestos factory workers studied r.y us approximately one of every five deaths is due to lung cancer. ''ou that is astonishing figure. I do not know what the rate is amonr. the population at large, but not one in five of the nopulation at large, Mr.

Speaker, die from cancer in any form. llut here thev are,these workers,one in five is due to lung cancer, and almost one in two of one of one or another type of malignancy includjng pleural, peritoneal mesothelioma etc. MR. BARRY: cancer in the chest cavity and the abdominal cavity. MR. ROBERTS: One in - yes,the pleural one is the abdominal cavitv and - I am sorry, the pleural is of the lungs, the peritoneal, 6958

June 17, 1975 Tape 2365 (Morning) PK - 3 of course, is the abdomnal cavity. 1 Fe\1 of these deaths however occur in less than fifteen to twent y years from onset of exposure. The difficulty is compounded by the fact that there need not be twenty years of exposure. I n many instances only brie f periods of work exposure will suffice, the dust inhaled in six, twelve, twenty-fom: months remains in the worke rs lang.s from the time of inhalati on, exposing his lun g tissue to continuing damage even though he have no further work exposure .,> Now that is, you know, tliat is astonishing.

I am glad to send the minister a copy of the let ter . MR. BARRY: What is the date of t he letter? HR. ROBERTS: I have had the letter for well over a year, July 1973, nearly two. MR. BARRY: I find it amazing that you have it for so long and have not passed lt on. MR. Jl()RERTS: I -haVe - it is not my job to formulate - I have 6959

June 17, 1Q75. Tape 2366 RH - l raised the matter and if the minister, Mr. Speaker, if the minister is now 11:oinr to stand, if the minister is going to stand and say that , I have had this and not sent it forward to him, I would point out , and I will check the Hansards, that we have raised this question in this House on at least twenty or thirty- and as a matter, just ll'lst -ek I had lunch - 't-'R. BARRY: That is not the point. MR. ROBF.RTS: It is the point. I had lunch with a gentleman,at my request, Mr.

Layden, Doctor Layden,and Doctor Layden was going at my suggestion to see the minister and I showed the letter to Doctor Layden. This question has been raised in this House a number of times by me and by my colleagues which leads to your next question; What can be done? Much can be done. It should be done as soon as possible to avoid the long term effects noted about. trThe asbestos industry engineers have demonstrated that sharp reduction in dust exposure is feasible.

Johns-Manville ,, enr,ineers are among the hest in the world and I (that is Doctor Sel ikoff) and I would have confidence in their ability to do whatever is necessary to avoid dust exposure of the workmen in ll the mines and the mills. Now, Sir, he just concludes and he says/cl 8111 enclosing a numher of reprints of articles bearing on the general question of IJ ashestos disease. Now, Sir, the Baie Verte situation is not new. The Minister of Health, I do not mean the present minister, his predecessor, had had it brought to his attention by me in the House on a number of occasions.

The general thrust of his reply was that there would he a Division of Occupational Health and that the department were looking into recruiting somebody to be the Director of Occupational Health. I would think that that is a difficult task because I suspect there are very few specialists in this field. That was the position taken by his predecessor and the matter, I need make 6960

June 17, 1975. Tape 2366 RH - 2 no apology on this point because I raised the matter, I raised it at least three years in a row on the health estimates. I raised it this year on the health estimates and the last two years. I think the honourable the Minister of ~ines will find it was raised on, I do not know on his estimates, but on - yes, I think it was raised on his estimates and also on those of his predecessor, an appropriate time to raise these issues. If the honourable gentleman wants to have a nasty little political debate I will get into one on that 1n th hlm because, of course, I - MR.

BARRY: Is that a threat? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I would not dream of threatening the honourable gentleman. I am just saying if he wants to have a nasty little political debate we can have one. My concern is with the situation, the Baie Verte asbestosis situation and it is a concern which we have stated a nlDUber of times before and which I now state again. My concern, Sir, is that we do not know what is happening there. The union have raised it with the minister on occasion. I do not know with the present minister, but they have raised it in negotiations on occasion.

I do not think they have raised it with the present Minister of Health. He has not heen in office long enough to get involved in this. But I would think, and we do not need Doctor Selikoff's letter or anything else to tell us this, the literature which he sent me is public literature, The Saturday Review of the Society, The Nation, a well known American magazine, The New Yorker , 1968, October, 1968. It has a1i been around for a long time. Most of it I had seen before,in fact. The fact is that the situation is going on. The minister, I think, has made a step forward in this bill hut nothing has vet been done.

I would ask the minister- I make a suggestion. I made the same one to Doctor Layden two or three weeks ago with the hope and the expectation that he would pass it to the minister and I assume he did, although I have not spoken to Doctor Layden recently. I do not know what he said to the minister. I do not know what the minister said 6961

June 17, 1075. Tape 2366 RR - 3 to him. I do not even know whether they have seen each other,in fact,although I am told there was to be an appointment, that we, we the government, t.he people of Newfoundland hire Doctor Selikoff or his institute. It is the Mount Sinai School of Medf.cine, Fifth Avenue,Onl' Jtundredth Street in New York, the Department of Cmmmmity Medicine. I am told they are the best people in the world for this type of investigation. They have the expertise. They have done considerable wetrk in Canada.

The Thetford Mines Report was the case in point - to get them to coine to Newfoundland, to get them to go down to Baie Verte and see just what the aituatiOt'l is, to see jqst what the matter is all al,out, to see whether there is a problem. I fear there lll.!IY be one and I have no hesitation in saying th.at I have had that fear for a number of years and 696?..

June 17, 1975. Tape 2367 RH - 1 in one way or another I have tried to make it, I have tried to make it come about that the matter could be looi:ed into. I have not checke<l my files as Health Minister, Mr. Speaker, but I will - it was 1970, 1969, 1971. We left office early in 1972, and this dispute went on between the two departments. The same type of dispute as far as J know was still going on with Labrador City. It has now been confirme<l at what? - fourteen men, silicosis has been confirmed,and eleven otl1ers - MR. BARRY: Eleven - MR.

ROBERTS: I am sorry, eleven cases of it have been confirme(' and !11urtet>n are on a suspected list. Well, that is not a new problem. I have heard the Minister of Mines and Energy speak on that before. It h~s been going on for at least three or four years, That matter has been discussed publicly. The union there are very concerned about it. So they should be. The ERCO problem is not a new one.

When I was Health Minister we had, the federal Health and Welfare people came down and they ilade a study of the F.RCO plant,and thev made a nu~ber of recommendations~and I called in the union and gave them the recommen- dations and I called in the company and gave them the report as I had received it from the federal people.

Althoup,h I had no lep,al authority to do so I told the company they had, I think it was sixtv days to :Implement the ones that could be imple~ented :immediatelv,and the others had to be implemented as quickly as possible thereafter and we took the position - well, they - we did not have to say what would happen if they did not implement it. They said they would and I heard nothing subsequentlv that they had not and I had reports subsequently that they had done what they had undertaken to do. So, the matter is not new. The problem is not new. The asbestos one in Baie Verte is not new.

But what is needed now, and the minister has raised the entire matter hy bringinp, in this bill, is an attack on it. What is needed, I suggest, is to retain Doctor Selikoff 9 and I hope,to be quite candid 1 when I had sent the word privately to the minister, that the minister would get on the telephone to Doctor Selikoff, and for all I know

.Tune 17, JQ75. Ta{le 2367 RH - 2 he may have, I mean.I do not know, but I rather hoped that the minister would seize the occasion and get bold of Doctor Selikoff. I have no executive authority to do it. Indeed,! still put it to him. Say to him, please come down or send somebody down and come and look at the situation and let us know what you think and let us know what should be done and then when we know where we are we can see where we must go. I would suggest that to the minister now. He ohviously knows··Doctor Selikoff. He is aware of or he knows the name. He is aware of the name.

Indeed, he may have been in touch with him. But this man is an expert. The 1968 New Yorker articl•, I do not read The New Yorker as a rule but I was sent a reprint of the

article of 1968, October 12, 1968,and that was the source of the brief description I made of Doctor Selikoff, head of the Division of Environmental Medicine at the City University of Mount Sinai School of Medicine, Director of its Environmental Sciences Laboratory and a pioneer in the field of modem asbestos epidemiology. So, there it is, Mr. Speaker. I think it is a serious problem. I think it is potentially a serious problem. We have raised it a number of times in the House and if the minister wants to debate this I would be quite prepared to.

But I would be somewhat sorry to see the debate tumed away from the point of what should be done to help the people involved and to insure that occupational health measures are adequately protected. As I said, I am not even sure that it should be the ~inister of Mines who has to take the responsibility for action in this field. I still feel it should be the Minister of Health who should be assigned responsibility. I think it should be resolved. I tried to get it resolved and did not succeed in the time I was in office.

Whether or not it has been resolved since I do not know, but apparently from what my colleague from Bell Island says it has not yet been resolved which agency of government is to take the - MR. BARRY: Not so! 'IAR. ROBERTS: Well, the minister - I am glad to hear him say that, 6964

June 17, 1975. Tar,e 23(,7 RH - 3 and the minister can tell us when he speaks exactlv Phat has heen done. This matter has been debated manv times 1n the llouse in the last - MR. BARRY: The responsibility is shared by two or three departments. 696f.:

June 17, 1975 Tape 2368 (Morning) PK - 1 MP. RORERTS: tn the last three or four years. Hell,it has been debated here often. I have never heard a satisfactory answer, because I feel as does AY friend from Bell Island that there should be one agency which is the Occupational Health Agency, and it should not be a mining oneration, it should be a health operation. And I think it - MR. 1\ARRY...: Your colleague feels the opposite. IIR.

ROBERTS: Well~I mean when I was Minister of Health 1II'f then colleap,ue the ~inister of Mines certainly felt to the contrary, and the memoranda,I suppose,were some of the sharpest memoranda which two colleagues in the cabinet ever exchanged one with the other. They were two very firm and completely opposing positions. Anybody who knows Bill Callahan knows that he is quite capable of taking a strong position and expressing himself with vigor and force. And on my side I took an equally strong position.

I still feel that it should be the Department of Health which is responsible. nut. you know, I am not so much concerned with who is responsible as the fact that somebody must be. Occupational health is becoming more and more of a concern throur,hout North America. There have been a couple of excellent hooks WT"itten on it in the last year or two. But I think it should 1'e a Health responsibility, Mr.

Speaker, because I think the mines should he made to - or industry for that matter - should be made to confirm to health regulations, and it would, you know, a mine can he mi~es. and an industry can be industries, and are we then going to have three separate sets? And then what about fisheries, you know, ~here vou have a different type of occupational hazard.

You know, I thi.nl: it should he much like the tJorlanen' s Compensation Board which is seoarate and which as far as I know cuts across any departmental responsihilitv, if they feel that something is necessary they have certain authority wi.thin their legislation to do it. So I think it should he the Health Department. Whether it is the Health Department or not the Mines Department has an interest and if it 6966

June 17, 1975 Tape 2368 (Morning) PK - 2 has been decided that they should take the lead in this,well,that is well and good, that is certainly better than the estate where nobody is responsible. So I have touched on a number of things. I would be quite happy as I said to provide the Minister of Health or the Minister of Mines if he wishes with a copy of any information I have, again an offer I have made before.

I never read this letter before in the House, and I make no apology for it, but I certainly referred to th e matter, and referred to the subject matter in the letter. lt will be interesting to get the Hansards and check it just how many times this matter has come up. It has never come up in such detail as it has today. The problem is there. I do not know whether anybody in Baie Verte is !n any way suffering from asbestos-caused or asbestos related diseases. I very much hope not.

But at the same time, Sir, and the minister is quite aware of this, he does not need me to tell him, he does not need anybody to tell him, he has indicated that he is quite aware on his own and quite sense of the issues. At the same time, Sir, the fact remains we do not know about the situation in Baie Verte nor are we fully up to date on ERCO. We have had some indications that there are studies going on at ERCO, occupational health and environmental health or environmental studies. There has been no indication that I am aware of exactly what if anything they have disclosed.

The situation in Labrador City - the minister has acted on it and I believe with some resolution and decisiveness. But the fact remains that situations like the asbestos one has been raised a number of times in the House in the last - certainly the three or four years we have been here. And I would suspect tte honourable gentleman's colleagues raised it before that when they were in Opposition and we were in the government. And today or last week we have the confirmation of what we all feared all along , that there were going to be dust related conditions. Well,now we have had enough warning. We have had St.

Lawrence, and we have had now this problem, the eleven men with some degree of 6967

June 17, 1975 Tape 2368 (Morning) PK - 3 silicosis at Labrador City. Let us not have any other problems. Let us act now to take the appropriate action. And I do thiuk that we need a !'!ivision of Oecupational Health and I think we need one that is fully staffed. The government have been at it now for about three and a half years they bave been in office and they have not made any appointments of which I am aware. They have not taken any action of which I am aware in the occupational health field as oppo~ed to a mines safety field. I would like to see BOllle action taken. I would like to see it taken very quickly.

So, Mr. Speaker, I do not know how relevant I have been to the hill. I may have strayed a little on the narrow, you know, whatever the prinicple is of the bill. But I would thank Your Honour for allowing the debate to take the course it has. I think it is a very good course, and I think it is one that could very much benefit the people of Newfoundland, particilarly 696~

June 17, 1975. Tape 2369 R1I - 1 the workmen involved. So, I hope "7e will hear from, I guess we will hear from the minister now. I verv much hope so. I hope we will hear from him in a very positive way and exactly what it is because I think he shares the concern, I think we all share the concern in the House, either side, as to what should be done and I think it is now up to the minister to tell us what he is going to get done. He is there.

He has the executive responsibility for the time being at least,and while he is there I know that he will want to discharge that responsibility as faithfully and as effectively as he can. So I think now, Sir, he should tell us in a very positive way what he hopes to do and what he intends to do and how quickly it will be done. I think it is much too important, much too illlportant for any other approach to be taken. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable ~inister of Tran9l)ortation and CCJlllll\ltlications. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, if I may take a few minutes to say a few words on this particular bill.

I think that it goes without saying that the specifics that have been referred to by honourable members opposite and I am sure honourable members on this side of the House would be quite appropriately and adequately dealt ~".ith by my colleague, the mini.ster responsible, but I think that it :ls inclDllbent on me on behalf of tbe people who reside :ln my district in the c:lty of Labrador City and local 5795 of the Steelworkers' l'nion there which has shown concern over the discovery of silicosis.

I think to say that the suspicions were there for quite some time is one thing, but to have the actual confirmation of it is something tbat is of concern to people who are working at the Iron Ore Company pro.1ect :ln Labrador City. I think it is reasonable to say that within the past couple of years I think that government has made an attempt to cmne to grips with the problem in Labrador City. At one time or another my colleagues, the honourable the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. the honourable the Minister of ITealth,and in particular 6969

June 17, 1975. Tape 2369 RH - 2 the honourable the Mi.nister of Mines and Energy have dealt with the problem when it was raised quite decisively,as the honourable the Leader of the Opposition said. I think that some of the problems that were encountered were some that could not be, could not give us a solution to the problem as quickly as we wanted to, }fr.

Speaker, because of the fact that although there was suspicion, until the suspicions were confirmed,and they now have been,and until the actual cause of the problem which has now been found to exist was discovered and I know that the Minister of Mines and Energy expressed great concern over the actual cause of the silicosis. There have been studies going on by the Iron Ore Company of Canada. They had an independent study by the Trudeau Institute people, I believe, of the Iron Ore Company of Canada, one which I have a copy of.

The federal people have been working in conjunction with the provincial people and I knO'o• that we have had a couple of meetings with the Union Safety Council and with the Iron Ore Company of Canada in respect to it. Again, I feel, it goes without saying that I feel the government has acted decisively in the matter. The Minister of Mines and Energy has written the Iron Ore Company of Canada on a nlll'lber of occasions and spelled out just what he feels should be done to correct the manner insofar as the facilities are now available to correct them.

I am most pleased that he was able to procure a dust technician for the plant at the Labrador City who will be a government representative on the site,who will constantly monitor the dust levels. It is all right to sav,you have the timed analysis of the dust levels. But of course, when you go hack and you are talking to people, it is always a problem that when they go in there the dust count may not he what it is an hour later or so on or so forth, so that we have somebody there permanently. It certainly will be of great assistance to alleviating the problems which go along with the dust control 6970

June 17, 1975. Tape 2369 Rll - 3 at Labrador City. Also, we had a meeting recentlv, last ~eek I believe, no - yes, last week with the Union Safety Committee from Labrador City. Certainly, I think it was their feeling that certain areas of the plan had greatl y improved, not all the areas but certain areas. We are certainly pleased with that. I am pleased that the minister has seen fit to enlarge the x-ray programme that is ~oing on to other facilities outside the plant where dust may he a problem.

Also, t hey are lookin~ 11t x-rays from all people whether thev nrc now presently in either the pellet plant or the mine operation.or if thev are outside there and they have been there for a number of years that they are hein!' x-.ayed. So, it is a matter of great concern to the people in Labrador City. Naturally, anytime you have a disease like that, esp ecially when the man who is involved does not reallv know the medical complications in respect to the disease, it is something that is not only physically frightening but also psychologically frightening.

So, hopefully we will be in a position in the near future to be able to put a stop to this 6971

June 17, 1975. Tape 2370 RH - 1 sort of problem. I know for my own part that the M~nister of Mines and f.nergy will be working towards that end. He has my co-operation. Ile has the co-operation, I think, of all the people in the area and the union at Labrador City. I am sure that we will continue with the dialogue between Mines and Energy and the local union and hopefully some time in the near future that the plant dust problem can be cleared up to such an extent that cases of silicosis will not be something that ~,e expect to encounter over a long period in the future. So, I would like to put on the record, Mr.

Speaker, the cause of concern that the people u, there have at Labrador City. 'Wabush, of course, is a wet system and they do not have a dust problem but the cause for concern of the people in Labrador City - MR. NEARY: Is anyone else going to ~et a chance to speak? t-1R. ROUSSEAU: Yes, yes, I am going to sit down in about two seconds, Sir, when I am finished this if you do not mind. Keep going, boy! '1-'R. RClUSSEAtr: But anyway, in the meantime, I do have to express that on the record on their behalf. Hr.

House Leader, when you want to see the enthusiasm they met you in March of 1972 you would want me to do it too, I am sure. They love him up there and I am sure they would want me to, and would want me to have the opportunity to put that on the record. So anyway, Mr. Speaker, I think the government has dealt decisively with it. They will continue to do so and hopefully, as I say, in the near future that the problem can be rectified, the dust counts brought down and the problems that now exist will be something of the past and not something we have to worry about in the future. MR. SPEAKER: debate. ~1R.

Xl'RPJlY: MR . BARRY: - - --- The honourable minister speaks now, he closes the What about the Member for Bell Island, Mr. Speaker? ;-Ir. Speaker, I am glad to see the debate that has been gener ated by this bill. I think it is a very important topic. MR. rfCTRPJ!Y: Excluding the Member for Bell Island. 6972

June ' 17, 1975. Tape 2370 R11 - 2 MR. BARRY: I am glad other member recognize this. First of all, I would like to clarify some misconceptions that have developed in the course of the debate. We did look at~very seriously , the question of consolidating this responsibility within one department.

We conclurled that that was not the proper approach to take because there would be a duplication of facilities, there would be a duplication of personnel, because you are talking really about a number of different responsibilities, On the one hand 1the problem of monitoring health hazards, on the other hand,the responsibility of actually going out and determining what the physical conditions are and what the technology is that is available to alleviate any occupational hazards that occur. We worked out, Mr.

Speaker, and this is being done by way of Order in Council, a directive has been set out delineating or definin g exactly what the responsibilities of the Department of Health, the Department of Mines and Energy,and the Department of Manpower through the Workmen's Compensation Board,what their responsibilities are in these areas. Each of the departments has a particular responsibility. Really there is a joint responsibility, that is what is involved here, Mr. Speaker.

For example, the Department of Health, I agree with the Leader of the Opposition, and I very quickly as Mines Minister stated this opinion 1that the Department of Health, the Minister of Health should have a continuing responsiblity. So this raging debate which apparently went on in the inner sanctums of the previous administration we fairly quickly got out of the way. I agree that the Department of Health has to have an involvement right from the day an operation starts. But, ¥r.

Speaker, the Depart­ ment of Mines and Energy and the mine safety inspectors of that department must also be involved because these are the people with the expertise, with the knowledge. They are the ones that can inform the Department of Health what the actual physical on-site conditions 697j

J\Dle 17, 1975. Tape 2370 a:re at particular times. They are the ones who can moni.tor dust conditions. for ex&lll'P1e. They are tbe ones vho can point out when a new piece of machinery is required or when a piece of macbi~ is not Qperat~ properly, so tbat there is also a cont:lnuin8 responsibility :in the Hines Inspection Br1111ch of the departmellt. This is the vay we are proceeding, Mr. Speaker, by having each of the relative departments remain :lnvobed :In the joiilt responsibility but with their specific re_sponsibilities spe1led out by way. of Order in Council. This has been done. It is not correct, Kr.

Speaker, that notJrl.ng has been done in the f~e1d of 0¢Ct,1pational health since the prev:Lous adi!iinistration left. There was not very~ done prior 6974 RB - 3

June 17, 1975 Tape 2371 (Morning) PK - 1 to 1972, but since 1972 there have been a number of very important factors as I have already pointed out, (1) the setting up of a central x-ray registry, (2) the imposing of a requirement of a pulmonary function test as part of the annual examination of people working in dust related facilities.- rhese are very important steps - (3) the approval of the position of Director of Occupational Health. Again, unfortunately there has been a delay in filling the post because of events beyond our control, namely, finding suitable people.

(4) We have increased the number of mine safety inspectors and technicians who are available for ac~l monitoring and on site inspection. And with respect specifically, Mr. Speaker, to the asbestos mine at Baie Verte.this is an area where I have great concern and where all interested parties should have serious concern because of the lack of consensus on the standards that should be imposed, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: ------ I do not mind the interferring - if honourable members are I hope I am not interferring with their conversation, Mr. Speaker.

The concern I have is due to the lack of consensus in the standards that should be laid down, Kr. Speaker, in the asbestos mine, because we find a difference of opinion amongst the experts as to what the proper standard should be. But I will point out that in this past year, in 1974,as new developments took place in technology and the discussion with respect to the standards, that in Newfoundland, in Baie Verte the Department of Mines and Energy imposed a new standard that is twelve times approximately as stringent as the previous standard had been. And, Mr.

Speaker, this standard has now been laid dmm for Baie Verte and the company has been given a period of time within which to revamp their machinery,re~design their machinery, get in the new equipment that will ensure that this standard is observed and that the working conditions are properly and adequately monitored to ensure that this standard is complied with. 6975

June 17, 1975 Tape 2371 (Morning) PK - 2 Now that, Mr. Speaker, we do not agree,or we are not saying thnt that is the end of that, that we have reached the ultimate, you know, the final stage that everything is perfect in Baie Verte. MR. NEARY: MR. TIARRY: Close your stockpiles. That is not the case. Okay!The second point that I will move on to in a minute is the possibility of problems in the community generally.

And with respect to that I can say that we have had the, not my department, hut the Department of Provincial Affairs and Environment has had the Environmental P·rotection Services of the federal government involved in a community atmospheric sampling in Baie Verte. They I think it was March or April this was carried out. The results have not been satisfactory because of the windy conditions at the time, and a decision is being made that a further test is necessary, a further sample is necessary to be carried out by the Environmental Protection Service. And this will be done. !-TR. NEARY: Good stuff • "ffi.

BARRY: Now once that is done we will decide whether any further steps are necessary with respect to bringing in any individuals from outside of the Province or outside of the country for that matter, and whether or not Dr. Selikoff is the person - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I wonder would the honourable minister Ul-:e to adjourn the debate and call it c-ne of the clock? MR. RAR'R.Y: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have one or two brief points to make after the lunch break.

I might say that with respect to the need for further investigation this will he determined once we have completed this environmental survey of the community generally, and once we see the imnlementation of these new standards. llr. Selikoff's name,and this is why I referred to my surprise ':hat the Leader of the Opposition has had this letter for over a year, because it was only a coincidence that the name was brought to my attention. T 1-ianpened to 1,e in Ontario or Quebec at the time of the rerort - ._"!R_._N_E_A_R_Y_: __ Y_ou should havP heard of it before. 6976

J une 17, 1975 "IR, BARRY: ?-IR. ROBERTS: MR. BARRY: Tape 2371 (Morning) well this is a~out six or seven months ago. The Thetford Mines Report. And when the Thetford Mines Report came out it PK - 3 did not get too much puhlicity even down here in our own papers but they had very extensive coverage ur there and I became aware of this gentleman's report. And I inst"ructed the officials of the def'artment to make contact and to oht ain the report, and this is now bP.in~ done. 697 7

June 17, 1975. Taoe 2372 RH - 1 contact and to obtain the report and this is now being done. We also - MR. ROBERTS: It will help in the election. You definitely got it. I just checked and we have not received it. f-1R. BARRY: We may have it. I am not sure. I have not: read it myself. I have not read the actual report. The other thing is that: this is becoming a matter of increasing public d:lscussion and debate, possibly generated by a number of books that are appearing recently. I would recommend to all members here one with respect to the St. Lawrence mine, of course, Doctor Layton's book on the St.

Lawrence problem called Dying Hard. Another book with respect:, mainly directed towards asbestosis wh:lch is a very interesting, very informative and a very frightening book, is called The Expendable Americans. I referred earlier in this House several months ago to this book. That is a criticism of the industrial medical complex as - MR. ROBERTS: Is that a girl Stock? 1'4R.. BARRY: I forget the name but I read out the name of the authors to Hansard and - MR . ROBERTS: •1R. BARRY: Is it a girl named Stuckless? No, this is a gentleman tmo wrote this one. But, Mr.

Speaker, there is the need for concern about, as far as asbestos is concerned, the possibility of community harm being caused as well because this author in the book The Expendable Americans, and I m:l.ght add th