VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT ROUSE OF .li.SSEHBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00p.m. - 6:00p.m. ~UESDAY, APRIL 29, 1980 NO. 31

April 29, 1980 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Si!!Ut\5): M.R. SPEAKER: ~.R. L. BJl.RRY: Tape No. 1112 SD - 1 Order, please~ STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS The hon. l·linister of Mines ~~d ~nergy. Mr. Speaker, I have today filed with tl1.e Resource Policy Cornr.d ttee on the Bstimates a copy of the t~;o letters concerning offshore ownership which passed be~~een our Province and the federal government in 1974 and 1975. These letters followed several years of fruitless negotiations. I have asked the Clerk to distribute copies of these letters to all hen. members.

And you will notice in the letter from the Government of Newfoundland that we requested,at t.'lat time as a basis for negotiation, federal accepta."'lce of our right to have a substantial degree of control over offshore petroleum activities .. The federal government in its response was not prepared to accept this pre-condition for furt:.er nego~iaticns and took the posi~ion that the matter should be referred to t~e Supre~e Court of Canada. Our ~overntrent, as you know, has since continued to assert our ownership of offshore resources and the ~ight of control ·.~hich flows frorr. such ownership. Now, :~r.

Speaker, I have taken the opportunit'l of filing these documents at this tirre because of ~~e confusion which has ~een created by the assertions of members opposite t~at there is no real difference between their position and t'le government' s pas i tion or between ~""le 9ove rnmer~ t 's pas i ~ion and t2:e position taken b;r t_,_.e federal government in Ottawa. I would just like to refer :rou, ~!r.

Speaker, briefly to t~e letter se::t by the C-overnrnent of olewfoundlanc where it asks "hether e:b.e fede::-al c;-ove=roen~ · ... •ill agree to the ?ravinc9 having a suCstantial de:gree cf control, and ~he response 'Nritten !:::y t.:.~e then }!i!lis"ter of 3nerS"'..-', ~ti.r..es anC. 2949

;,pri: 29 , 1 9eo Tape No. 1112 50 - 2 HR. L. BARRY: Resources, Mr. Donald MacDonald, where it is stated that they have reviewed our position referred to in the letter and say, · ~This review has demonstrated that substantial differen .ces· exist between our respective positions on ownership and jurisdiction." So, Mr.

Speaker, I would say that o-ut of the documented evidence filed here today you will see as a matter of record that the federal government acknowledges that there is a substantial difference between the provincial position and their position. lind I might note that this exchange of correspondence took place following meetings between myself, the hon. John Crosbie, the b.on. Donald Hacilonald and the present Leader of the Opposition , who was then a .cember of t.'l.e federal Cabinet. And the first letter by us refers to the fact that this Fall discussions that were held 2950

Acril 29, 1980 Tape No. 1113 EL - 1 R. L. BARRY:: with the present Leader of the Opposition and Mr. MacDonald, so that the hon. member opposite should have had available the clear position of this government on the question of offshore ownership and jurisdiction and it should be clear to him that there was,when he was a member of the Federal Cabinet,a -substantial difference between our position and that accepted by-the Federal Govern- ment. And really what the people of this Province now want to know is whether there still exists that substantial difference of opinion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. L.

BARRY: Hr. Speaker, I ask that the Clerk arrange to have copies of this distributed to hon. members. MR. SPEAKER (Siirms) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.D. JkMIESON: Well, Mr. Speaker, I do not propose to abuse the rules of the House,as I suggest the hon. minister has,by entering into debate. It is not even a Ministerial Statement, I suggest to you,Sir, it is a tabling of a document. Furthermore, it was an ad lib statement which I did not have the opportunity to examine ahead of time.

It is interesting that on this particular occasion,when it suits the hon. member's purpose, he is quite prepared to accept some of the acts of the previous administration. On a great many other occasions the previous administration and what it was prepared to do or did do, is anathema to hon. members opposite. I, thereforesav simply, Sir, that I sugest to the hon. member once again that I quite sincerely believe that it would be far better to discuss this whole issue in what I air quite prepared also to say would be a non-partisan way.

And I think also that if documents of this kind are to be tabled that is, a partial record then I think also that it would be appropriate for this House and for the people of Newfoundland to see what happened in subsequent years, particularly as it relates to the planning for and the build-ut to 2 a 5 1

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1113 EL - 2 MR. D. JAMIESON: the Federal - Provincial conference on the constitution and also many of the documents which were discussed among the officials and some of the agreements that were actually reached. I am aware, as the bon. member knows, that these documents exist. I will show them to him privately if he so desires. But, in any event, Mr. Speaker, I do not think that this is the appropriate time for me to say anything other than that we will take a look at these documents now that we have them. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : •r!c.E. non . the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

D. JAMIESON: I have a question for the Minister of Finance (Dr.J. Collins). ~an the minister indicate anything further with regard to the unfortunate Confusion that continue~ to exist surrounding the Ccme by Chance oil refinery? I ask him the initial question; I may have a supplementary for the Minister for the Minister of Mines and Energy (L. Barry) .

But we have seen now two or three different state­ ments, one indicating that the chances are minimal that Petro-Canada will be interested in this facility; others, from the minister, I believe, giving a more optimistic outlook; could he please give us an up-to-date assessment or an up-to-date report on what is happening with regard to the Petro-canada involvment? MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : DR. J. COLLINS: The hon. the ~inister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, the last time I had a conversation with the President of Petro-Canada,which was approximately ten days ago, 2952

.".pril 29, 1980 Tape No. 1114 Dlv - 1 DR. J. COLLINS; I believe, he told me that they just about had their team of experts in place at that time and this team of experts had been gathered together from across Canada and, I think, to some extent down in the United.

It was necessary to do that because these people had to have a lot of familiarity with the intricate details of the technicalities of a refinery and especially in view of the fact that there have not been that number of refineries that have been mothballed for this length of time,certainly at tide­ water where the possibility of deteriotation from salt water spray and so on and so forth may be more serious than,sa~ inland mothballing, so this team of experts have to be :very carefully put together.

But at that time my understanding was that that team had just about been put together and that the first members of that team were about to visit the refinery. Subsequent to that, a short while later,I had some conversations with some of the people in the refinery area and they indeed told me that there had been some individuals go there and I think these were the same individuals, the individuals they weTe referring to were the vanguard, shall we say, of this team of experts.

So from that I think one can say that the first phase of the inspection has begun and I have no further information since that time nor would I expect any at this stage. I would expect that a report 1 and this would presumably be just an initial or interim report,would now take a matter of a number of weeks.

And that repor~ nresumably in the first instance would go to Petro-Canada and they have under­ taken in the letter of agreement with us that any such information will then be sent down to the co-ordinating committee which is set up between the Government of Newfoundland and Petro-Canada so that each side is fully informed as to the sequence of events. 2953

April 29, 1980 MR. D. JAMIESON: MR . SPEAKER (Simms): Leader of the Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON: Tape No. 1114 DW - 2 A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . A supplementary, the hon.

Very specifically,have Petro- Canada, in f~ct, informed the minister or any of his associates that the liklihood of their acquiring the facility or putting it back into operation is, in fact, about 30 per cent 90sitive as opposed to 70 per cent presumably ne~ative{ Have they actually used those figures or have they given the impression ... - that it is not a very likely prospect certainly given those percentages?Have they made that kind of a statement to the minister or to anyone with whom he is associated? MR. SPEAKER: ?R. J. COLLINS .;_ of the Opposition and, The hon. Minister of Finance. ~r. Speaker, the hon.

Leader 2954

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1115 NM - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: I am sure 1all members are aware that the President of Petro-Canada used that particular figure in an interview a couple 9f weeks ago and to get clarification on that, that was the reason why I contacted Mr. Hopper and where I got that information I just mentioned. And I asked him specifically whether this was a new assessment on his part, that is what I was interested in. Because I do not think a percentage figure means anything really. This is a very subjective thing in my view.

But I was interested to know whether he ~d any reason to have made a new assessment from the time the representatives of Petro-Canada had reached the agreement with us, and he assured me that there was no new information that would cause him to make a new assessment. So presumably if he had been thinking of the figure of 30 per cent,and he himself readily admitted that he is not himself a technician and he had no new technical information available to him, he indicated to me that his assessment at the time he mentioned that figure was no different from his view of things when we reached our letter of agreement.

What I am trying to get across, Mr. Speaker, is that that 30 per cent does not mean a downgrading of their assessment of the situa~ion. In Mr. Hopper's view that presumably was the type of figure we always had in mind. Now the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) mentioned that I have made a statement being more optimistic than that, and all I can say is that that is my feeling on the matter.

I am certainly no expert in this type of business but I have had,over the last nine months or so,a fair bit of contact of one sort or another and I would be, if I were asked 1and it is a very subjective thing, I would say that I am much more optimistic than that and I think I did say recently I would give it better than a fi fty /fifty chance. MR. JAo.'1IESON: A supplementary. MR . SPEAKER (S imms ): A supplementar y, the han . Leader of the Opposition. 295~

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1115 NM- 2 MR. JAMIESON: If I could direct this supplementary to the Minister of Mines and Energy, some weeks ago I asked him whether or not the Come By Chance facility was capable of being utilized for the type of crude which we all hope is going to be found offshore, His answer was in the positive and in fact I believe, if my memory serves me right, he said that in fact there would be less modification required than for perhaps other types of crude from other places. Recently I read an interview with Mr.

Cabot Martin in the Rounder, a rather comprehensive interview, an interesting one which I hope we can have a chance to discuss in more detail later, but he indicated in that response which he gave to one of the questions, that offshore crude from the Atlantic would have to be blended, I believe was his word, with other types of crude if it were to be utilized in Come By Chance.

The question I have is, can the minister, without being technical, I do not expect him to have that at his fingertips, but it is a large percentage of what I would describe as non-Atlantic crude that would be necessary for this blend, or just what exactly is the situation? In other words,would we have to bring in a lot from other sources as well, say Mexico or somewhere else? MR. SPEAKER: MR. B.l\RRY: The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr.

Speaker, first of all my reference to the fact that there may not have to be the same degree of modifica~ion to the refinery had to do with the fact that it was contemplated initially that there would be high sulphur crude refined and you need additional facilities there to avoid the environmental problems that result from the emission of sulphur into the atmosphere.

If you have a sweet crude or a low sulphur crude,which is what appears to be present on the Grand Banks, at the Hibernia discovery in any event, then you do not have the same environmental problems and do not need the same environmental equipment at the refinery. 2956

:\pri.l 29' 1980 Tape No. lll6 AH-1 MR.

BARRY: With respect to the refining of the Hibernia crude itself, it is my understanding, and again it is preliminary information that we have obtained, but we have had certain consultants, before Petrocan expressed its interest, we had some preliminary work done which indicated that the supply of Hibernia crude was relevant for the start-up of the Come By Chance refinery ,and I think it shows the importance of offshore ownership in that we are able to direct offshore crude to Come By Chance and to thereby interest Petrocan in the possible reactivation of the refinery by showing that there can be an as ·sured supply of crude.

And it is our understanding that the crude from Hibernia can make the project viable, The actual technical details of the amount of another quality crude which may be necessary to get the optimum refining process, I will get the bon. member the details if he requires but the basis of it is that the crude from Hibernia directed to Come By Chance can make that a viable project, a viable working refinery. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the han. the Premier and it stems from the Ministerial statement made by the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.Barry) today, Sir. Hon. members know that almost three months have gone by since the new government was elected up in Ottawa,so I·would like to ask the Premier if contact has been made with the new government in connection with offshore ownership or management and if the contact has been made orally or in writing to the Government of Canada to have the offshore management, control or whatever · you want to call it confirmed?

Has any contact been made at all officially by the Premier or by his ministers either to the Pr .ime Minister of Canada or to his ministers, either orally or in writing? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFQRD: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I thank the hen. member :or his question . Numb er one , I had a fairly decailed mee cing wit ~ our re pres en cativ e in the federal cabin et in Lab rador City about a mo nt.h ac;o or five we eks ago on this mat-::er and of co ur se ~~r. Rompkey , the he n. the minister res ,po ns ible for Nati onal Rev enue , indi caced some doubts 295 7

April 29,1980 Tape No. 1116 AH-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: as to his agreement with our position and indicated that there did not seem to be at that time,in his opinion - he would have to have more information -whether in fact 295R

April 29, 1980 Tape 1117 EC- l PREMIER I?ECKFORD: he, as the federal representative in the Cabinet, would be able to support it. So I went through all the pros on it, the. advantages of it from our point of view and indicated to him that I intended to present to the Prime Minister and to the Government of Canada a package of federal-provincial concerns in a co-ordinated manner. That, as I indicated yesterday in the Kouse and last week and a couple of weeks aqo, is well underway and we will have that package ready by tomorrow and a few days after that present it to the federal government.

It will contain the whole question of a t.ransportation plan for the Province, will contain and reiterate our present position on offshore ownership, will reiterate our position on the whole question of the fishery and so on. Number one, verbal contact has been made to this point in time with Mr. Rompkey because I wanted him to know exactly how we intended to proceed. I have sent him a lot of information on it so that hopefully I can persuade him to our way of thinking so that he can support us in Cabinet, if in fact that kind of support is needed, and perhaps all the federal Cabinet will agree.

Secondly, we are preparing a major document to be released relating to ongoing federal-provincial relations, which will include the whole question of the offshore. MR. S • NEARY : Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (SiiiD11S) : A supplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: I would like to advise the hen. gentleman that we, too, met with Mr. Rompkey and outlined our views en the offshore management or ownership or control or whatever you want to call it 1 but I would not consider that making the official presentation to the Government of Canada.

The hon. gentleman said he was trying to persuade Mr. Rompkey. MR. L. BARRY: Which lettar (inaudible) • MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman has stooped to the lowest level of politics I have ever seen in this Province and in this House today. MR. SPEAKEP.: Order, please! Order, please! The hen. member is - 2959

April 29, 1980 Tape 1117 EC - 2 MR. S • NEARY : I am not asking questions of the hon. gentleman, I Ul asking questions of the Premier. And I would like to ask why there has. been such a delay? We met with Mr. Rcmpkey and we talked over.this offshore thing but the hon. gentleman says he was trying to persuade Mr. Rcmpkey. Well, was the purpose of the mee.ting with Mr. Rcmpkey just to politic or was it to ask Mr. Rompkey to arrange a meeting with the Prime Minister and the Government of Canada? Now, let the Premier be straight about it and tell us, did he say to Mr.

Rcmpkey, "Arrange a meeting with the Government of Canada so that we can officially make the views of this Province known concerning the offshore ownership question "? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I met with Mr.

Rompkey because it was the first opportunity I had to meet with him both as Premier and the gentleman responsible for Inter-governmental Affairs in the government and the first opportunity to meet with our representative in the federal Cabinet to go over a whole range of issues with him, and to indicate the kind of approach that this government intended to take as it related to federal-provincial relations, which was one of, hopefully, coherence, not ad hoc every day, wiring Ottawa again about this , that and something else, but then to isolate a number of very critical areas. One was DREE.

We are in grave danger of having the worst year ever in our history economically as it relates to the cash flow of DREE funds in this Province - our forestry industry, our transportation industry and so on - and we have been communicating on a daily basis on that one, and that one we have to move on. MR. s. NEARY: That is your ~n fault (inaudible). PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker 1 if I may be allowed to proceed? On the questions of principle, on the questions of the Constitution, which are in a different area altogether, I reviewed with Mr. Rompkey the positions 296n

''· .,, .. April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1118 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador have taken and which they will continue to take, and then I went on to indicate to him that I would be back to him after our package was ready and sent. off to Ottawa so that they would have time to read it. I do not intend to release something today, then ask for a meeting yesterday. I intend to release the document for the Opposition, for members of the public and then a week or two later to request to Mr.

Rompkey a meeting with the Prime Minister to fully go over those matters of principle,which I should bother the Prime Minister about, and to very briefly touch on crisis issues which should be dealt with by his respective ministries like DREE. So I wanted to separate the more practical DREE programme orientated issue from the more principle constitutional issue which the First Ministers should get involved in. And that is our aim and objective and before this week is out we will be ready to do that. And I am· seriously considering whether in fact , as I indicated to the House yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, that I would like to have before that docUillent is presented to be able to put down on the bottom of that part of the document dealing with the offshore that the House of Assembly has just passed ~ resolution dealing with the whole offshore question so that all members of the House, not just the members on this side but the members on the opposite side also, would agree ~o that will be an additional argument in our favour in trying to ensure that the federal government recognizes those ownership and control rights. So hopefully the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. S.

Neary) and his colleagues on the opposite side will agree to that kind of resolution and supporting us so that will be that additional argument that perhaps,possibly we might need 1 especially in light of the fact that a number of members opposite expressed the view yesterday that the question of five Liberal ~1Ps being re-elected Shows that Newfoundlanders might not necessarily be in favour of the offshore. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. 2861

~;. April 29, 1980 PREMIER PECKFORD: yesterday did mention that. SOME HON. MEMBERS·: · :EIREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. Tape No. 1118 SD - 2 A number of members opposite Oh, oh. They implied it in their statements , MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Or<l.er, please: PP.EMIER PECKFORD: I want them to come clean,too, Mr. Speaker, and therefore we will be asking this House to unanimously support the government on this offshore ownership issue so that it can be incorporated into the overall package that we intend to present to the federal government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear.

Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile,followed by the hon. member for Port au Port MR. S • NEARY : I might say for the benefit of the hen. the Premier, I have a resolution here in my hand dated Wednesday, March St.'l, 1975 moved by the Opposition and unanimously supported by members on both sides of the House concerning the offshore ownership - five years ago. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) ~.R. S. NEARY: Five yea:t:s ago! Order, please! But, Mr.

Speaker, the hen. gentleman was very evasive in answering my question and elected to play politics with it rather than come to grips with the question. The question I put to the hen. gentleman, this is a matter of urgent public importance,this matter of getting the offshore ownership question settled 1and it has taken three mont.'ls now and all the hon. gentleman did was have an informal and casual meeting with Mr. Rompkey. Why has the government not taken the bull by the horns?

And why has the Premier not, because this is such an important matter to this Province, picked up his phone, called the Prime Minister of Canada, arranged a meeting, sat down, talked it over and left his proposal in writing with the 2962

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1118 SD - 3 MR. S • NEARY: Prime Minister of Canada? Or ~1ould he prefer to play a little politics with it for a little while longer? Is that what the hon. gentleman is up to? MR. SPEAKER · (Simms): The han. the Premier. 2963

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1119 EL - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the meeting I had with Mr. Rcmpkey, the Minister in Ottawa representing us, was net a casual meeting, it was a very very important meeting which lasted for two or three hcurs ,which dealt with very important issues dealing with the Province. Now, the bon. member fer LaPoile (S.Neary) does not consider Coastal Labrador DREE agreement to he important. The bon. member fer LaPcile does not consider the whole question of transportation- MRS. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. S. NEARY: you nov . Do not play politics now.

Be straight. in the Province to he important. People are beginning to see through MR SPEAKER (Siiiiiils) : Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: The bon. member fer LaPoile does net consider fisheries to he important.

If the bon. the member does not think that the whole question of trying to see whether our Federal re­ presentative supports us on the offshore is important, well then,I am sorry and, you know, I am very sorry and I regret the fact that those kinds of comments would be made by the ll'lember for LaPoile, I am sure he would like to support the fishery, he would like ~o support the whole question of transportation in the Province - MR. S • NEARY: You are the qovernment.

PREMIER PECKFORD: - and I am sure he would like to see just how his federal Cabinet Minister is going to behave in the critical negotations and talks we will have wi~h the Federal Government. As I have indicated before, we are ready by the end of this week to present to the Federal Government a detailed, coherent picture of ongoing Federal - Provincial relations in the Province into two really specific areas, categorizing them, one dealing with matters of principle and jurisdiction- 2964

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1119 EL - 2 PREMD:R PECKFORD : the fisheries, the whole question of the ownership of the offshore - AN. BON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). PREMIER PECKFORD: Obviously, absolutely. This govern- ment is totally open artd will ensure that those kinds of matters continue to be - SOME H0N • MEMBERS : Oh, oh I PREMIER PECKFORD: - we will table everything, Mr. Speaker. We will ensure that the opposition is kept totally inforllled on every­ thing, given the opportunity to debate this, that artd everything else.

The hon. member for LaPoile (S .Neary) only a number of weeks age was praising the administration for its openess and so on, and I hope the hen. member for LaPoile will continue to do t~at because we intend to be totally open and that docUlllent will be availab.le. So we will do it in a coherent, unified approach and hopefully we will have at that time, in the next six or se~en days, the full,absolute, unqualified support of the Opposition in our att~pts to make this province a little bit better than it is right now. SOME HON. MEMBERS : He.ar, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Member for Windsor- Buchans.

MR. G. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transportation and Communication (C. Brett) . And I wonder if the minister would indicate what the situation is with regard to his proposalll to Ottawa insofar as DREE subsidiary agreements or what have you are concerned? We understand that the Cabinet and the minister a:re in the process of preparing proposals for Ottawa for funding for various highroad construction projects in the 296'"

~pril 29, 1980 Tape No . 1119 EL - 3 MR. G • . FI.IGH'l': Province, and I am wondering if the lllinister would tell the House Whether or not the Buehans-Burgeo, South· west Brook and ·s.Peeifieal.ly the Buchans-l!urgeo part of that road is listed oti the shoppin9 list, and if it is listed, in what priority it retains on the shopping li .st? 296!1

1'1" 1 April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1120 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that there is a fa~r backlog of requests in Ottawa with respect to agreements and there was a shopping list set up some timEl ago but that particular road was not on that list. Now that does not mean that it will not be forwarded, that,you know, it could possibly be sent forward at a later date. But it was not on the last list that went up. But the Province has not changed its mind.

We are still interested in that route from Buchans to Southwest Brook 1 there is no change in that, and we are pursuing the matter and I have no doubt that in time that will be put forward to Ottawa. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: I wonder if the minister would be a little more definitive. He says it was not on the last shopping list. Will it be on the next one, the list that the Premier just referred to with regard to construction projects and what have you in the Province?

Would the minister indicate whether a request for funding for the Buchans-Burgeo Road will be on th~ next snapping list that we understand is going to be presented to Ottawa in June?

And if the answer is affirmative,then this question will not be necessary, but in the event it is not affirmative, if the minister cannot indicate to the House whether it will be there or not, then would he tell the House why, given the performance this past five years, and given the situation in Buchans, and given the case that has been made over the years for that road~ Lf the answer is not affirmative, if it is not going to be on the next shopping list would the minister indicate why it will not be there? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: As I indicated, Mr.

Speaker, the Province has 2867

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1120 NM - 2 MR. BRETT: not changes its mind. We are still interested in that route. I think I should explain that at this particular moment in time we are not interested in that route as the second Trans-Canada Highway. OUr present highway in the Province is only - only abqut one­ tenth of it has been upgraded to the extent that it sho¥ld be and many hundreds of millions of dollars will have to be spent on the existing TCH before it is brought up to equal standard. So we are not interested in ~he road from that point of view of a second Trans-Canada Highway, but we are extremely interested in that

section of road as it relates to resource development, And in time we hope to see the Tulk's mine deposit developed and I would suggest to the hen. member that in conjunction with that then that road would probably go ahead and I have no doubt that DREE will be asked to participate in the building of that road. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary. MR. SPEAY..ER: A final supplementary, the han. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the minister would tell the House - we already have an investment in that road; there are eight miles of road constructed by this Province to the tune of $1 million, Now since the minister had indicated that it has not been on a shopping list up until this point in time,I would not hold out too much hope, based on what the minister has said,for it to be on the next shopping list, ~he one that is going in in June, so that is a year or two probably before we have a chance to have it on the shopping list.

What precautions are the minister or the Department of Highways going to take to protect the eight miles of road already there, built completely at the Province's expense, at a cost of around $1 million in an area that is prone to flooding, washing out? Will the minister indicate to the House whether or not the Department of Highways is prepared to maintain that road in a reasonable condition so that it will not be totally washed out when and if we ever get to extending 296>9

'fl!" '! April 29,1980 Tape No. 1121 AH-1 MR. FLIGHT: the road on to the West Coast? What responsibility has the department taken with that road? Furthermore, are the people of the Province entitled to have the road leading into that ten miles of road that we built up there fifty miles away from nowhere, are the people of the Province entitled to get to that road and therefore will the Province undertake to maintain the thirty or forty miles of woods access roads that get us into that strif of road that has been in there and now apparently is going to be forgotten?

What is the department's position with regard to that eight miles of road already existing in there at a cost of $1 million to the Province? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: I understand, Mr. Speaker, that I am going to have to bring my secretary into the House to take notes because that question is very, very cumbersome. The fact that the government went out and spent $1 million to build eight miles of road indicates that we do down •the road at some future date intend to extend it on to connect up with the Burgee road.

I do not think we have any responsibility to keep the thirty miles of woods road open because I see no reason why any Newfoundlander would want to travel over thirty miles of road to travel a further eight miles to not go anywhere. So not only do we not have any responsibility but I do not see why anybody would want us to do such a foolish t~ing. we have not taken any precaution. I do not know what we could do to insure that there are no wash-outs, that it does not rain, that it does not snow or that it does not freeze. It is not very much we can do about that.

We recognize that the longer the road is there the more that it will deteriorate,and we have discussed that because it is of some concern to us, but I do not think that it will deteriorate to the extent that we will not be able to reluild and carry on. Obviously there will be some and it will have to be rebuilt again but there is very little we can do about it now. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Bonavista North. 2969

April 29,1980 Tape No. 1121 AH-2 MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just before the weekend I brought to the attention of the House a very dangerous condition involving the bridge between Greenspond and Ship Island. I now understand that as a result of the work done by the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Windsor) together with the Minister of Highways (Mr. Brett) that they now have some good news. I would like to ask the minister if he would like to report to the House on the good news - the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Windsor). MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hen.

Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman for his question. First of al1 1 I think I was out of the House last week when the question was first brought to the attention of the House and my colleague the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr.Brett) advised the House at that time that it was not under the responsibility of his department,which is quite correct. As I understand,the original structure was constructed probably by federal authorities as part of the breakwater construction there.

Nevertheless,with the co-operation of my col1eague,officia1s from his department are now in Deer Lake and preparing a bailey-bridge type structure for transportation to Green's Pond. This will be put in p~ace within the next week or two in Green's Pond with the co-operation of the two departments, the Department of Municipal and Housing and the Department of Communications and Communications. I am further advised by the federal authorities that they have some funding allocated for reconstruction and upgrading of the breakwater so hopefully this will alleviate the problem for the people on Ship Island.

SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett). Sometime ago I was enquiring from the minister with respect to what monies would be made available for ferries throughout this Province. The minister indicated that there would be no decision made in that respect until the report of a committee 297n

A!?ril 29,1980 Tape No. 1121 AB-3 MR. LUSH: was in that he had establi:shed. I wonder if the minister can indicate to the HOuse what kind of a committee that was that he set up.to study ferries throughout the Province and what members are Gn that committee? MR. SPEAKER ( Sil;rnns) : The hon. Minister of Transportat-ion and Communications. MR. BRETT: I do not know if I can name them all, Mr. Speaker, but there was some of my staff, one or two 297

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1122 DW - 1 MR. C. BRETT: people from Intergovernmental Affairs, Municpal Affairs and Housing - PREMIER PECKFORD: It is an in-House committee. 11R. C. BRETT: Yes, it was an in-House committee, That is three departments that were represented and 'I am not sure who the other ones were. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. I am sure hen. members would like to join me today in welcoming to the gallery members of the town council in Pasadena, Mr. Bill Pardy, the Mayor, Mr. Max Rice, the Deputy Mayor ,and Mr. John Harries, the town manager. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, if I may have the attention of the House and the support of all members right now - I forgot to do it at the beginning when the House opened first. I understand that one of the members of the House, the member for Bay of Islands (Mr.

Woodrow), that his mother passed away this morning or last night at the ripe old age of ninety-seven and a half 1 and I think that I would be remiss in my duties if I did not ask all members of the House to join with me in passing along to the hon. member for Bay of Islands our condolences and to see, Mr. Speaker, through you that the appropriate condolences are sent out in telegram or whatever form to give concrete evidence of that fact. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition .. MR. D. JAMIESON : Mr.

Speaker, it would be quite inappropriate to say it is a pleasure, of course, to second this motion 1but I certainly do join whole- heartedly as do my colleagues. I suppose when one reaches the aqe of ninety-seven,on an occasion like this it is more a question of giving thanks for a long and 2972

If April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1122 DW - 2 MR. D. JAMIESON: productive life than one of regret at the person's passing. But nevertheless I am sure that somebody as dynamic as that must have made quite a contribution 1 not the least of it being her son who I think is one of the most affectionately regarded members ofi this House an both sides. lution. I am pleased to join in this reso- MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Those in favour 'Aye', contrary 'Nay', carried. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. E. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr . Speaker.

The hon. the member for the ' Mr. Speaker, before the gentleman from Mount Scio as the Chairman of the Committee presents the report, I simply want to say that my understanding is that both sides have agreed AN HON. MEMBER: St. John's North. MR. E. ROBERTS: I am sorry, St. John's North. I keep thinking of him in connection with Mount Scio in a very savoury sense indeed 1 •nd I hasten to say. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I simply want to say my understanding is that we are going to vary the normal procedure.Normally the member would simply stand and say, 'I present the report' and that would be it. I understand that he is to make a statement and that my colleague, the member for Port a~ Port (Mr. Hodder), who was, I believe, the Vice-Chair- man of the Committee 1 is to make a similar statement. We on our side, Sir, certainly consent readily and hap~ily to this arrangement. .MR. SPEAKER: ~1R. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Is it aqreed? Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for LaPoile. 2973

April 29, 1960 Tape No. 1122 DW - 3 MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out to members of the House that although we aqree,I would like to point out to the House that this is the very same gentleman that we are now giving leave to make a state­ ment who turned down a request to allow the last speech of Mr. Smallwood to be televised in this House when he resigned. So I just want to make that,point to show that we are not as narrow-minded as the hen. gentleman. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order, please: I understand that leave has been granted both to the hen. member for St.

John's North (Mr. Carter) as well as the hen. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder). I would like to ~ake that quite clear. The hen. member for st. John's North. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. J. CARTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank all members of the House. I have the honour to submit herewith the report of the Select Committee to enquire into and to heaT evidence on all matters relating to the adoption of a flag for the Province and to recommend this special design therefor. Mr. Speaker, since 1932 the official flag of Newfoundland has been the Union Jack.

We will always be proud to fly it because of our close ties with Great Britain and as a member of the Commonwealth. However, many have long felt that we should have our own distinctive provincial flaq, a symbol of our own individuality, one which represents our unique identity as well as the traditions reflected in the Union Jack. Accordingly. in November 1979 the provincial government brought into being a select committee of the Legislature to hold public hearings to receive design 2974

.... April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1122 ow - 4 MR. J. CARTER: proposals and to submit a design for a provincial flag not later than April 30th. of this year. The Committee consisted of the members for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), Kilbride (Mr. Aylward), Menihek (Mr. Walsh), Fortune- Hermitage (Mr. Stewart), Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms), Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) 1 a~d Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock). 29 75

April 29, 1980 Tape 1123 EC - 1 MR. J. CARTER: Public meetings were held in the following communities, St. John's, Labrador City, Happy Valley, Nain, Makk.ovik 1 Davis Inlet, Hopedale 1 St. Anthony~ Harbour Breton, Burgee, Port aux B;asques, Gander, Twillingate, Fogo, Greenspond, Valleyfield, Grand F;alls, Stephenville, Corner Brook, Marystown, Grand Bank, Placentia, Clarenville, Bonavista, Hazbour Grace, Bell Island, and 1once again, in St. John's.

From its first meeting, the Committee had agreed that any provincial flag should fulfil the following conditions; it must be simple, attractive, distinctive, mirror our important traditions and be widely acceptable. The Committee also agreed to refrain from promoting specific designs until all the public hearings were over. As the hearings progressed, two concerns were expressed over and over again - Labrador must be represented in the design, and although there was a profound affection and respect for the Onion Jack and all it represents, our flag should be unique.

Another generally expressed concern was that the new flag should not be a compromise between divergent designs. The Committee was exceedingly fortunate in having the help of the internationally acclaimed Newfoundland artist, Christopher Pratt. He had offered to help in any way possible, free of charge, and in late March a prolonged meeting of the Committee was held with him. The Committee's general impression of the public reaction and its preferences and concerns were discussed in detail with him. It was decided at this meeting that the new flag should be geometric in design.

All public design proposals were shown to him and he agreed to study these in detail and make some designs under certain conditions and these were,one, that he be paid only for the art materials used; two, that the Committee would be under no obligation to accept all or any of his designs; and three, that if any one of his designs were to be chosen that it would not be altered. This was agreeable to the Committee, who appreciated his offer, and a further meeting was scheduled for the middle of April. In the meantime, further proposals were for~arded to Mr. Pratt as they were received.

On Thursday, the 17th of April, the Committee went to Mr. Pratt's studio in Salmonier where a large number of designs had been prepared. The Committee unanimously chose the design whid1 is presented here today. 287R

April 29 1 1960 Tape ll23 EC - 2 SOME BON. MEMBERS : Heu, bea:z: ! MR. J. CARTER: In this flaq 1 Mr. Speaker 1 the p:rimuy col.Gurs of red, yellow and blue are used &q&inst a b&elcCJrOUDd of white, wh4:h &llows the desiqn to stand out elearly. White is al.so :representative of snow and iee, blue represents the sea, red, our <:CliiiiOn h~ty, and qold, our confideJlce in oq.rselves. The blue seetion 1110st reminiscent of the Union Jack. represents our CO!alaonwealth beritaqe 1 which has so decisively ahaped our present.

The red and qold seetion 1 lonqer than the other, :represents our future. 'Dle two trianqles outlilled in red portray the mainl.a.Dd and isla.Dd parts of our Provinee reac:hi.nq fo:nr&rd tacJether. A qolden arrow pc:iints the way to what - believe will be a bright future. But the design of the flaq encompasses much mora symbollSI!I than this. For exampl.e , the Christian cross 1 Beothuck. and Haskaupi ornamentation, the outl.i.ae of the Maple Lea£ in the eenter of the fl.aq, a triumphant fiqure and our plaee in the space age. Also, Mr.

Speaker, hunq as a banner, the arrow assumes the aspect of a sword which reeal.ls the sacrifice made by so many of our veterans. The design looks simple and it is, both simple and profound. In the words of David Sileox, ''It is the mark of qreat artists 297

~pril 29, 1980 Tape No. 1124 NM- 1 MR. CARTER: to make their work look easy, simple and artless. They-dismantle the scaffolqing of complex techniques, aJ;ased the ·fal54i! starts and preliminary groupings. Such artists bequeath us an image and an object so inherently logical, balanced and inevitable that it seems to have a life of its OWf); an inte .rior energy that never wanes. Such an artist., Mr.

Speaker, is Christopher Pratt1' In bringing you this design, the committee has listened attentively to all submissions and carefully considered every concern and then,having given you its industry, has exercised its judgement. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms} : MR. HODDER: Thank you. Hear, hear! The hen. member for Port au Port. Mr. Speaker, I thank the House for allowing me to speak on this occasion, giving leave to speak on this occasion. I wish to endorse the words of the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) when he introduced the flag. I have no doubt, Mr.

Speaker, that the new fl _ag of Newfoundland and Labrador will not please everyone at first glance, but I am quite confident that once the flag is accepted by this House then we will be as proud of this fiag in the future as we are now proud of the flag of Canada. It is also a great satisfaction to me that we will be able to fly the Union Jack beside our E'rovincial Flag,and I assume, Mr. Speaker, that the Union Jack will c.ontinue to fly on our provincial buildings as the flag of the Commonwealth. Mr . Speaker, I wish to congratulate the great Newfoundland artist, M::.

Chris Pratt 1who undertook to represent the ideas of this Committee into the flag you see before you. The fla9" took him many hours to produce and it could not have been done by a more talented Newfoundlander. 297 8

'ii April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1124 NM- 2 MR. HODDER: The flag represents our heritage and it is based on the Inuit, Beothuck artifacts. Perhaps this will remind us that they used the land better than we do at present. Also, as was pointed out by my friend from St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter), the upper triangle outlined in red is to represent Labrador, as the lower part represents Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, the Flag Committee members were unanimous in their selection of a flag.

It will stand well with th~ flags of the other Provinces of Canada and I believe as well that it can stand with the national flags of the world as it recognizes that we were once an independent nation. But most of all, Mr. Speaker, it is rooted in our past but it looks forward to a brighter future for Newfoundland and Labrador. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Further reports? NOTICES OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR.

WINDSOR: I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to i..1·1troduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The City Of st. John's Loan Act, 1975-76," and the "City of St. John's Loan Act 1978". PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, I rise to lay on the table of the House,in my responsibilities as the member for Bellevue, a petition signed by a very large number of residents of that community, I will not read the entire prayer of the petition but essentially it is to express their opposition to the construction and operation of a mink farm in Blaketown.

The residents who have signed this petition indicate that they have had experience in the past with this kind of facility located in a comparatively small community, in a compact area, and they point out that they had a most unfortunate experience with it with regard to 2S79

~ April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1125 SD - 1 MR. D. JAMIESON: not only odors but the pollution which resulted from the previous operations of this kind in that area and they are asking that this particular project be located somewhere where it will not indeed cause what they regard as ve~ serious underminding of the general ecological nature or the environ:mental area of the coi!IIlunity. I am pleased to lay t.'ti.s on the Table of the House.

ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Provide For Natural Areas In The Province To Be Set Aside For The Benefit, Education And Enjoyment Of Present And Future Generations In The Province". (Bill No. 12). MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. R. DAWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is indeed a pleasure for me today to rise and introduce Bill No. 12 , "An Act To Provide For Natural Areas In The Province To Be Set Aside For The Benefit, Education And Enjoyment Of Present And Future Generations In The Province".

I think that everyone realizes t.~at we are faced today, we will be faced with in the future, added pressures as they relate to ecOnomic development in our Province. There are pressures of making 'a decision between advancing as quickly as possible or taking the time to stop and have a look and see just what is happening to our environment, to our way of life,and to the enjoyment of t.~at way of life by future generations.

This Act will establish essentially two types of reserves in the Province 1 the first one being a wilderness reserve which is essentially a large land mass that will be set aside for the normal play of activities and natural .things that go on within t.~at area, will be able to go ahead without too much influence from m&~, without too much persuasion from him to change the things that are already 2980

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1125 SD - 2 MR. R.. DAWE: there 1and the normal activities that qo on with reqard to the wildlife and the various topoqraphy situations that are ex;Lstinq in that particular area. AN HON• .MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. R. DAWE: In this kind of a res~rve man will essentially be a visitor. He will be an individual who comes and as a visitor hopefully will respect his host 1which will be the area itself and the wildlife that habitats that area. Essentially there will be very few of these wilderness reserves.

There is presently a reserve established in the Avalon area and I think this is probably our prime example of t.-.,e type of wilderness area we are speakinq of. It is anticipated that there may be one additional wilderness reserve on the Island part of the Province and possibly two others in the Labrador

section of our Province. The second type of reserve that this bill will establish is an ecoloqical reserve and this reserve will be of much smaller dimensio.ns. Aqain, it is expected from research that has been done that these reserves will average somewhere less than 1,000 acres. And they wi11 be reserves set aside to protect a specific natura ·! phenonenon; an. example may be the bird sanctuary at Cape St. Mary's or an area of the Province that may be set aside to protlect one of our natural red pine stands that are perhaps in danqer of being taken over by some development or project.

One of the things that tilis bill addresses itself to is the establishment of these reserves with the intention of making them have a certain amount of longevity, hopefully continued longevity. The problem that we had with legislation in the past has been that 2981

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1126 EL- 1 MR. R. DAWE: it has not been strong enough. . :Really 1 the removal of a wilderness area or the establishmant of a wilderness area was the responsibility and still .is the responsibility of the minister who is assigned for that part­ icular area · of concern, illnd the various outside forces or internal forces that may be applied have not always been taken into consideration in the light of development, somet.t.mes in the na~~~e of expediency.

This new Act, on the other hand, will make the process of establishing the reserves a lengthy and detailed one that will involve an advisory committee, it will involve the public at larqe, it will involve various government departments who may have an interest. It will involve a number of agencies and groups that may be interested in the part:i,cular area that the reserve is dealing with. The process of public hearings will be adhered to.

And in total, every aspect of the setting up of the reserve will be investigated, both from the economics involved in it and for the future benefits that that reserve will hold for our next generation and generations down the road. I think it is imperative that this legislation be passed as quickly as possible. We are in the throws now of trelllendous economic. development within the Province. OVer the next ten to twenty yea ·rs, economic forces that are playing upon us will literally change the face of our land and our landscape.

Now is the time to select areas which are most special, areas taat we want to preserve in their natural conditions. for future generations. The wildrrness reserves area will preserve spectacular landscapes as well as individual species of wild­ life that require large ran~es for their survival and, I guess, most specifically ·I speak of the caribou and the tremendous success story that has been told and will continue to be told as it relates to the Avalon Caribou herd, which in 1963 totalled approximately 400 animals, but a 2 9 8 ..

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1126 EL - 2 MR. R. DAWE: census done in 1979 indicate that that has now risen to 3000 animals and I think that this is in no small way attributable to Mr. Mike Nolan,who has really over the years taken upon himself to look after that particular resource in that area along with other officials of the wildlife division. Ecological reserves, as I mentioned before, preserve valuable, natural phenonema, and I referred specifically to the bird colony in Cape St. Marys and to a number of existing red pine stands that are around the Province.

We are very lucky in this province, I suppose, to have ~ riumber of sites that have already been designated and have reached not only national but international sign- ificance. And a number of our bird colonies fall into that category. The 'llllrr colony on the Funks and the petrel colony of Gull Island and the puffins of Great Island represent the large~: colonies of their kind in their individual species . The razorbill colony of murrs just off the Coast of Labrador is the largest in the world as well. Cape St. Marys with their gannet population is the second largest gannet population in North America.

One of the things that I have always noticed, and I guess everyone else has, in travelling the Trans-canada ~s that in its haste to be built , the-Trans Canada and the communications system that went with it was probably one of the greatest criminals, one of the greatest visible criminals that we have had in not preserving various forms of natural phenonema along its route.

And one that comes to mind, more particularly those who have travelled through what is known as the Birchy Narrows area and witnes~d the number of trailers that are parked in what is now a gravel pit on the side of the road 1 that once was prabably the only true stand of native pine anywhere along the Trans-Canada Highway 0 Because the gravel conditions and so on were just 2983

-::< April 29, 1980 Tape !lo. 1126 EL,-3 MR R. OAWE : right for the construction of the road, that particular pine stand was just plowed under,and I think it is much to our shame that 2984

April 29 , 19 80 Tape 1127 EC- l MR.. R. DAWE: we have to witness that each time we drive by that particular area. In 1969, I. had occasion to travel to Baie Verte to take up a teaching position in that community. Just on the Trans-Canada side of what is Flat Water Pond Provincial Park where the river flows into !'lat Water Pond, there was a beautiful stream. That stream had a lovely sandy bottom, it had various little pools for swilllllling, it had an abundance of natural or fresh water clams or mussels - I am not sure what the right term is - that abounded from one end of it ta the other.

It was a place which most people in the area frequented from time to time on a leisurely afternoon. In 1970, when the highroad from the Trans-Canada to Baie Verte, the remaining thirty miles, was paved, it was discovered that this sandy bottom represented a type of soil that did not need to go through a crusher. It was exactly what the construction company needed in order to be able to put down the preliminary surface just before the asphalt went on. Needless to say, right now that again is a gravel pit and a hole full of little pools here and there, utterly destroyed.

It may not be significant on a broader provincial plane, but I am sure it is of concern at this point in time for the residents in Baie Verte and fer the Baie Verte Peninsula who look at that. And there is just no way that that will ever be returned to its normal state again. In Codroy Valley,where I am now residing, just before I got there the Area Development Associaticn,being prodded on by a lot of local opinion, decided that they would take an issue upon themselves and try to do something about it.

It related to the hunting pressures on the Canada geese that frequented the Grand Codroy River from where the river widens to start forming an estuary to where it enters the ·sea. The Canada geese and black ducks frequent that area in the Spring when the ice breaks up. They go back in the ponds in the area to nest in the Summer and return again in late August,when the young start to fly,to feed and get fat just before they go South. The hunting pressure was such that it was very noticeable that the population of both the Canada geese and the black ducks were reducing. 298S

J April 29, 1980 Tape ll27 EC- 2 MR. R. DAWE: ~rough representation made by this loc:U gro"QP, their own initiative, contact was made with the necessary officials and various avenues of both provincial and federal jurisdiction md the area was set aside as a reserve, as a non-hunting area, and ea-=h year it is very, very noticeable the increase in the number of birds that are coming to the river that are now beginning - at least the black ducks are - beginning to breed and to have their young on the banks of that river.

And it is really a tribute to the people in that area that they have taken that under consideration. Unfortunately, this has not always been the case in othitr areas. Sometimes the realization of what is happening does not hit until after it has happened and that things are gone forever. In 1975, a Committee was struck to begin the tedious work of preparing the legislation that is co~ng before this House today. There has been some considerable work. In the case of a number of ~ers of the Committee, it has been five years of continuous contact from one time to another working on this particular project.

Various forms of legislation, not only across Canada, but in the United States, were studied, as they relate to conservation and to acts that would encompass wilderness areas. It was brought to the point that most of the legislation in the United States was not necessarily relevant to our particular situation, so a review of the existing canadian legislation was the basis for our present legislation today.

There are five other provinces within the Do~nion of Canada th.at have si~lar legislation, and it is recognized now, especially by New Brunswick, who have indicated that they will be using this particular bill as a model for their proposed legislation in the very near future, that the Committee has 2986

7( April 29, 1980, Tape 1128, Page 1 -- apb MR. DAWE: taken the best parts of all. the legislation they reviewed, incorporated it to meet some of the specific needs in this Province, have developed-what I think is an excellent bill. The Committee was made up of a number of areas of interest. It was made'up of staff from the Department of Tourism, Rec·reation and Culture, the Wildlife staff, the Park staff.

The Department of Mines and Energy had a representative, the Department of Lands and Forests, Consumer Affairs and Environment, a representative from the Memorial University Biology Department, input from the Canadian Wildlife Service, the Canadian Forestry Service, and the federal Department of Fisheries. The passage of this bill, Mr. Speaker, will place Newfoundland among the leaders in North America in the area of nature conservation, and I think that we can all b~ very, very proud of this fact.

One of the areas, I suppose, that we have to address ourselves to at this particular time is the process it has to go through, that will have to occur in order to establish a reserve, whether it be a wilderness reserve or an ecological reserve. This bill will allow for the establishment or the creation of an advisory board, an advisory council. This council will have a maximum of eleven individuals.

Six of the eleven, which makes them in the majority, will be people outside of government service, outside of government agencies or control, and it is anticipated that one of the six will, in fact, be the chairman of that particular advisory council. This advisory council will be given the responsibility of identifying and describing areas that they see as potential reserves. 2987

~- April 29, 1980, Tape 1128, Page 2 -- ~pb MR. DAWE: The necessary research will be done by that advisory board and with a detailed description they will go to the various government agencies - in the form of a report - to the various government agencies, government departments, individual groups that may be concerned, and ask them to !espond to what they have put in their report. After this report, the results come back from the people whom they have asked to respond.

If there is nothing in the reports or the responses that come back that would indicate that they should change their minds as it relates to a reserve, they will then make a submission to Cabinet, through the minister responsible, asking that a provisional reserve be established. After having looked at the necessary documentation,Cabinet can then establish a provisional reserve in that particular area.

Within a year of the establishment of a provisional reserve, it will be the responsibility of Cabinet to indicate to the public through newspapers, through the various medias, and to the various departments, a complete description of the reserve that will include boundary descriptions of the actual land masses involved.

A management plan, which is very important, each individual reserve will have its own management plan which will make each and every one of them an individual reserve; an indication to the public that details of the reserve are available upon request, and a statement indicating that if an individual or a group wish to make representation at a public hearing, they must do so within thirty days of the notice. At that point in time the date of the public hearing will be set, and that each individual or group within the Province who wishes to 2988

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1129 NM - l MR. DAWE: make representation to the advisory council as it relates to the reserve, will be given the opportunity to do so. When the results come back, a report from the advisory council comes back to Cabinet, it will then be Cabinet's de~isiop; the Lieutenant-Governor in Council will make a decision either to discontinue the reserve based on the report, or to in fact establish a reserve.

The next stage I think in this whole process is probably where this legislation has some meaning, significant meaning, to the longevity that I spoke of earlier as it relates to wilderness reserves.

Once a reserve is established, in order for that reserve to be disbanded or disallowed, or discontinued, the exact same process that was required in order for the reserve to be established must take place, so that each and every individual who wishes to make representation, whether it is the government, or government agencies or individuals or private groups, or rod and gun clubs, or biology students, or the university or anyone. In order for that reserve to be discontinued the exact same process that went through for its establishment must take place.

And I think think this is where this legislation differs from any previous legislation. It certainly differs from any previous "legislation that we have within our Province, where it is very, very easy now for the minister responsible to decide to disallow or discontinue a particular wilderness area. There has been some concern expressed by people to me knowing that this piece of legislation was corning forward and it relaced specifically to what would be classified as traditional rights, hunting, fishing, trapping, as they relate to the individual reserves.

As is the case presently with the ~valon Wilderness area, there should in fact be no hunting or fishing restrictions insofar as they relate to the normal, what would be classified as the normal management of the wildlife in that particular reserve, or in that particular area. There is really no reason why the hunting and fishing rights cannot continue in that particular instance. 2988

April 29, 1980 Tape No. H29 NM- 2 MR. DAWE: 'l'he ecological reserves may in fact be a little different fc;.r specific items. The opportunity is there in this legislation to make exceptiQns to certain basic rules of not allowing activities to occur within the reserve. For instance 1if an ecological reserve was established to protect a red pine stand, one woul.d tlU.nk there would be no reason why you could not allow hunting, fishing, and , for that matter, a certain amount of trapping and other activities to go on as long as the prime reason, which was the preservation of the red pine stalld, was not in jeopardy.

So that this area woul.d not then in fact take away any traditional rights that may have gone on in that area:, wood cutting, and general abuse of the red pines would in fact not be allowed in that area. By the same to .ken 1 if an area was set aside to preserve what is considered probably one of our endangered species, the pine martin for instance, then certain forms of trapping, if not ail trapping in that particular ecological reserve would have to cease. But other normal woods operations, fishing, and so on may be .able to continue.

Each and every, and I want to emphasize that again, each and every particular reserve will have its own management plan and this management plan will be part of the legislation and part of the regulations that set up that particular reserve. In certain instances there may be an over­ lap or there may be some involvement with what are either economic or traditional rights or legal rights to a particular piece of land that may in fact be designated as a reserve.

And again there is provision made within the legislation to allow for these activities to continue, provided again they do not interfere with the purpose in which the reserve was es .tablished,. It might also be · worthy to point out that the total - and there has been a lot of research and s.o on done into this over the past five years and in fact a number of areas have been identified within the Province as potential reserve a•reas. 299 0

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1129 NM- 3 MR. DAWE: A number of years ago an international biological programme which drew from the information and expertise of biologists all over the world to try and identify within the world, all over the world, various areas that were of significant importance either to preserve or identify, and it was noted that 2991

l\.pril 29,1980 Tape No. 1130 AH-1 MR. DAWE: in Newfoundland alone there were some eighty such sites or items identified by that particular group. They were funded internationally,and unfortunately I understand that that funding has now stopped and there is no further cataloguing of these areas taking place. But the committee that designed this particular legislation - helped design this particular legislation have identified several areas around the Province that are potential reserves, some of the work has already been done.

Based on this, and the information that we have available,it seems that no more than five per cent of our total land mass,excluding our Provincial and National parks,would ever come under the ambit of a reserve , so the amount of reserve area that we are speaking of is very minimal when you look at the total land mass of the Province. As populations grow, as ~e as Newfoundlanders increase in pcpulation, as we entice people from other areas to come into our Province to help us grow and move on to the future,the need to reserve special areas becomes even more pressing.

Each day they become more pressing, and I think it has been established that the only way to really preserve and protect either biological or zoological species within the world is to establish a reserve. I think this has been found in vari:ous countries around the world. It is impcrtant that we at this particular time in our history have a ~ook at some of the things that have happened, the damaging things that have happened 1 not only within our own Province but within other provinces and other countries .

And now is the time to set aside these particular areas,to preserve them, to protect them, to make sure that our children, grandchildren and future genarations have an opportunity to enjoy and to participate in what is, in a lot of our cases,at least as much of our heritage; The land, the animals on the land have formed our heritage in a number of cases almost as significantly as the sea has done,and it is important that we preserve and protect this aspect of our heritage.

A number of years ago there was a wildlife park established in the Salmonier area and if hon. members have not had the opportunity to visit that particular park I would suggest they do so. 299?.

~ ~ - April 29,1980 MR. LUSH: Tape No. 1130 AH-2 The director of the park only a few short months ago attended a conference in British Columbia and it was recognized at that particular conference that that park, the concept of the park,is one of the best in Canada, and I think we can be proud of that as well. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I think that this legislation will be not only of provincial and national significance, but will be of international significance.

It is a reasonable, very reasonable, yet a very, very progressive piece of legislation that will place Newfoundland as a recognized leader in the world conservation movement. I look forward to ~~e debate that will follow. I look forward to the support of colleagues on both sides of the House and I think they will agree that this legislation is needed, it is overdue and it is the kind of legislation that we as Newfoundlanders can all be proud of and look forward to enjoying in the years to come. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR.

WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the minister on bringing in this piece of legislation.

And let me say first that if the governmen~ were on the ball and doing their job there would be ten more pieces of legislation brought into this House to protect the environment and the ecology of this Province Decause I think that if there is anything, any one area that we are slack on in Newfoundland, then that is the total mess that our environment is in and it is one of the major conce~ns that I have with respect to the way things are done in this Provinceand the mentality of some people in this Province who have the feeling that you can fling anything out the window or 2993

April 29, 1980, Tape ll31, Page l -- apb MR. WHITE: throw it on the ground, and it is only one more thing and it just disappears. It is a major c~ncern and I think the government should reililly try to something about this during the weeks and months ahead. This is a good pi:ece of legislation,! feel, Mr. Speaker, and a long time over­ due, but it does not address the major environmental problems and the littering problems that we experience here in Newfoundland. I doubt that there is, Mr. Speaker, one single square mile of land in Newfoundland where there is not a beer bottle or a tin can.

I would seriously doubt that. I have done quite a bit of travelling in the wilderness parts of Newfoundland and I am amazed that when I take an aircraft and fly into some remote pond that there have been dozens of people there before me, that there are beer bottles,upon the stumps,that they use for target practice, there are tin cans littered everywhere and it is a shocking, shocking state. I do not know what we can do about it. I do not know if a major educational programme would do the trick to try and straighten up the environment in this Province, and the way people feel about the environment here.

I do not know if major fines - I notice that here in this particular bill there are fines of up to $1,000. I do not know if that is enough or not. And I think one of the problems is the enforc~~ent. I noticed the other day that the CBC did a programme on this little sign that used to be up on the highways across Newfoundland - I notice that a lot of them have come down - that says, "Maximum fine $100 for littering the highways". I would like to see a sign up saying, "Maximum fine $1,000 for littering the highways" and let the law be enforced. I think that is the problem. 2994

·~ .... April 29, 1980, Tape 1131, Page 2 -- apb MR. LUSH: rest (inaudible) . MR. WHITE: A million, and keep the Well, put up $1 million and then enforce it on somebody. But it is a major concern, Mr. Speaker, and something that we should address ourselves to. Another situation is what has been let go on in this Province over the past few years, not the past few years but the past thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred years, and that is contractors allowed to build stretches of road and then leave huge gaps and gravel pits by the side of the road.

The latest bit of road that was constructed, they did do some seeding and that looks very nice now and that programme should be continued throughout this Province because tourists - PREMIER PECKFORD: much. MR. WHITE: And it does not cost ve·ry No, it does not cost nearly as much as people think it would cost. And it is some­ thing that should be followed up on and carried through.

Two of the concerns I had about this bill, aside from other environmental concerns that I have, is that I am afraid that the freedoms of Newfoundlandersarebeing threatened more and more all the time, and I hope that this bill does not erode the freedoms of Newfoundlanders any~ore than they have been eroded over the last few years. A few years ago the government made an attempt, for example, to cut out the construction of all cabins in the forest around this Province.

The reason behind doing that was a good reason, that they did not want people wantonl y destro ying wild life in the Wintertime, or anything like that. But, I think, once again they went too far too quickly in 2995

April 29, 1980, Tape 1131, Page 3 -- apb MR. WHITE: stopping people from being able to use the woods and so on in the Wintertime to get enjoyment from that. And I hope that this bill does not, Mr. ~peaker, erode any more freedoms of Newfoundlanders in that sense. I also hope that the bill does not mean that there are going to be private resorts created for certain people who have the ability to get into remote areas of this Province. And I hope that the minister sees that certain individuals do not set up camp in some of those wilderness areas and use them for their own private resorts.

I have heard some awful stories over the years, Mr. Speaker, about what goes on in some of the remote sections, wilderness sections of Newfoundland, stories of caribou being k.illed and canned immediately, and whipped out of the woods all times of t.he year, those kinds of things that are hard to police but must be policed. I think the minister should take a look at one particular

section of the bill dealing with that, and that is where is says, 'That no additions or improvements should be made to existing cabins'and so on•that lie within wilderness areas'. It might 2996

April 29, 1980 Tape 1132 EC - 1 MR. F. WHITE: even become ~ requl.~tion, Mr. Speaker, if there is a small area set aside for ecology reaaons ~d so on, to maybe have some of those pl.easure spbts removed if we want to re.U.ly protect the wilderness area that we are talking about. But generally speaking, Mr. Speaker, this is a good piece of legislation and I would like to see mere of it brought into this House. I would like to see the government real.ly crack down on the wanton destruction of our environment in Newfoundland.

I raised a matter in this House last year concerning the Newfoundland Light and Power and Newfoundland Hydro spraying along the Trans-Canada Highway. I just do not understand how a government could permit that to happen. Here in the middle of the SUllllller - and we only have it for two or three months of the year - the trees grow up and it looks gorgeous and beautiful along the highway and then they permit some company to come along with spray and to kill it all and knock it down.

There w~ one decision that this government made this year that I fully support and endorse and that was the decision not to spray in this Province. I am totally opposed to spraying and I do not think it should be done under any circumstances. I was reading an

article the other day, for example, that in one

section of Europe in a large forest area that they got rid of the spruce budworm by importing a little bird called the jackal, which survives and lives on the spruce budworm, and yet, here we are spraying in some areas of Newfoundland and destroying the very thing that can destroy the spruce budworm. And I am told that in that particular area - and studies were done on it - that large numbers of people were hired to take birds into the forest areas and release them, and within a matter of a few years, the bird population increased and the spruce budworm situation totally and completely disappeared.

I think that is something that we should definitely look at, Mr. Speaker. I am not being facetious in saying that and I am not suggesting that we all run out tomorrow and capture little birds and throw them in the woods, but I think it is something that we should look at, because I think there are natural ways of getting rid of the spruce budworm 2997

April 29, 1980 Tape 1132 EC - 2 MR. F. WHITE : without wanton spraying of this Province with chemicals. I cannot understand how people can aqree to just fly over masses of natural li£e and disperse a spray that we do not know what it is going to kill or how it is going to kill it. It just boggles the mind, Mr. Speaker, how people can permit that to take place.

I was wondering when the minister was speaking if Brunette Island on the South Coast WilS being considered for one of the wilderness areas he talked aQOUt. l:le did mention some of the bird sanctuaries around the Province and I was delighted that he mentioned the l"unk Islands, which I. will ta.llc about in a mnute , but I. WilS wondering whether or not Brunette I.sland still hilS buffalo on it, and if so, how many buffalo are on Brunette I.sland? I. would like for the minister to look at that and let us know. The Funk Islands are a qroup of islands off the Northeast Coast that again need to be protected, Mr.

Speaker. I do not know if wy member has had the opportunity to go out to the Funk I.slands, but it is a fantastic site. There are thousand,s and thousands of birds of all kinds and species nesting on the Funk Islands and that, too, is becoming a problem now because with the large nWIIber of pleasure craft that exist 299e

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1133 EL - 1 MR. F • WHITE : around the Northeast coast of Newfoundland more and more people are visiting the Funk Island and I am sorry _to say that the eggs are being stolen, that birds are being killed and it is something very serious that we have to cc;nne ~o grips with and make sure it does not happen again, because ,there have been a number of species of birds on Funk Islands that have disappeared over the last century or so because they were destroyed.

I read one story about the great auk where foreign sailors would co~e over, land there, kill the great auk and build houses out of the birds and use the birds for fire materials and so on. So, I know that kind of thing does not exist today but we do not want to destroy any of our natural environment and we must try to protect it as much as possible.

I would also like to see the govern~ ment, Mr.Speaker, and I meant to get in on the Environmental Assesment Bill, the other day, but I was not here when it finally passed through, and I was concerned about the oil disposal sites that the government has talked about throughout this province.

There was one designed, or it was suggested that there would be one set aside in my area since Lewisporte has one of the three environmental protection units that were put in place by the Federal Government and the people in the area concerned, Browns Arm, got very upset because they were going to have an oil disposal site there.Artd I am wondering with the situation we have now, particularly with the large increase in fuel coming into Lewisporte, that supposing there were a major spill in ~~at area, where would they actually dump this stuff?

And I think the government should move ahead quickly to formulate their policy on this because essentially they have dropped this oil disposal program and nothing has been done on it to my knowledge in the past little while. 299 9

,. oil April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1133 EL - 2 MR. F. WHITE: I do hope, Mr. Speaker, that some- thing is arrived at with respect to that soon so that we will know, particularly in our area. This year, for example, the amount of fuel coming into Lewisporte to service Gander is the highest since the Second Werld War because of the increases in traffic at Gander Inter- national Airport. And it is a regular thing now to see a tar.ker coming up Notre Dame Bay and arriving in Lewisporte.

And I would like to see the government put in place some on-land environmental protection system so we will know where this oil soaked material would be dumped should a spill occur,and it is not beyond the realm of possibility, particularly in Notre Dame Bay with all the small islands and so on that we have there. There is another thing I am going to raise now, Mr. Speaker, that I know the Premier has shewn some interest in ana I ~ope he shows a great deal of interest in it in future 1and that is the government's sign policy as it relates to the Trans-canada Highway and other by-roads in Newfoundland.

You might ask how does this apply to the present legislation that we are discussing here today. Well, it applies very significantly in the sense that the minister mentioned last night, &this estimate~meeting 1that a lot of people had complained that they do not know how to get to various areas of the Province and that they drive right across the Trans-canada Highway and there are no signs telling them where to go. I think we are probably the only province in canada and all the states in the United Staes7 I am sure there is no other place with the kind of sign policy we have in this province.

I think it is ludicrous not to perFit private individuals, private companies and others to place signs along the Trans-canada Highway to let tourists who come into this province know where to go. I think it is madness and absolutely ludicrous and I think the government should change that policy. 300~

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1133 EL - 3 MR. F. WHITE: I am not suggesting that we penni t whoever wants to put up a sign go ahead and do it. I am not saying that. I am just' suggesting that the sign policy should be changed so that a person who wishes to put up a sign can get conditional approval and then after a design is submitted to whichever department of govern­ ment is concerned that he can get approval to put up a sign.

The way it is now,nobody,no one can put a sign on the Trans-Canada Highway and that, to me, is wrong and should be changed • I agree we should maintain some uniformity with respect to a sign policy ,but I think that the government's present sign policy should be changed. .JO 0

r April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1134 so - 1 MR. F. WHITE: Now, Mr. Speaker, those are just a few comments on this bill. I applaud the minister for bringing it in and,as I say, I think the government should move even faster to bring in more legislation to protect our environment in this Pr~vince. And for us over here, Mr. Speaker, we will support this.legislation and any other legislation of this nature the government wishes to bring in. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. T. RIDEOUT: MR. SPEAKER (Baird) White Bay. SOME HON. MEZ.IBERS: MR. T. RIDEOUT: Hear, hear. Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Baie Verte - Hear, hear. Mr.

Speaker, I want to take a few minutes this afternoon to support this piece of legislation also. I believe that this is one of the I!Dst important pieces of legislation that has been brought into this House for some time and certainly the minister and the administration are to be complimented for it.

I am delighted to see, also, that the official spokesman for the Opposition has supported this bill because I believe all of Us can support the very fundamental principle that is so prevalent and that is really the basis of this piece of legislation 1 and that is that we have to ensure through legislation that ~~ere is a preservation of the natural beauty of this Province, that there is a preservation of the wilderness areas, that there is a preservation of the ecological areas that the minister and the bill refers to. I think it is important that we do that. It is equally criminal, Mr.

Speaker, that a lot of the natural beauty, a lot of ~~e ecological beauty of tr~s Province has beer. over the past number of years destroyed. Jl.nd that is not to be critical of anybody; hingsight is a great thing. But in our rush, Sir, to develop the Province, in our rush to push through roads, in our rush to industrialize and all that kind of thing ~~at we have not been as conscious of the natural beauty and the natural resources of this Province as I 3002

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1134 SD - 2 ~.R. T. RIDEOUT : believe we ought to have been. And I am therefore delig~ted that this piece of legislation will, for the first time,. by law set up an advisory council to the minister to be able to advise the minister and the government of what areas na-.ural, beautiful areas of this Province ought to be retained. I am happy also that there is a process of public hearings built into the legislation. Who knows better, 1-ir.

Speaker, than those people who are living in the areas that government might want to look at,who knows better what ought to be preserved and how it ought to be done? I think it would be very wrong to use the heavy hand of the law to walk in and say, "This is what we are goil}g to do," without any recourse, without any provision for the people who live in those areas to have some input into what might develop as a result of it.

So the method of public hearings that is built into the bill, built into the pi2ce of legislation, gives a large substantial degree of participation, it protects the individual, it will protect the rights of those living in the area so that they will have an opportunity to be able to say,through the route of public hearings, not anything secret or sinister but through the route of public hearizigs, "This is how we would like to see this area protected, this is how we would like to see development proceed"' if indeed there is room for development in those areas at all.

So, you know, it is a very important piece of legislation. And the principles of the legislation, Mr. Speaker, ~~at are outlined in sections 4 and 5, you know, I do not think there is a person. in the Province who could take objection to the wilderness area concept and to the ecological area concept that is outlined in

section 4 and 5. You know, they are outlined in great detail and they are the principles really that this bill is all about. The statement made by the minister that the wilderness reserve areas are areas where man should be a visit.or, I believe, Mr. Speaker, that is a very important concept that is built into this piece of legislation. We have not always, as 3003

April 29, 1980 Tap.a No. 11 34 SD - 3 MR. T. RIDEOUT: Newfoundl.anders, been conscious of that. I am one o_f .those who ~ik.e, on occasion, to go into the wooded areas of ~ Province, into the wilderness areas, and I believe that you can ·go as far into the wilde%11ess as you like in this Province now and it is al~~Dst impossible to find a part of this Province that has been untouched, that has not been left clean because of the h1JIIIan visitor who has gone before. It is criminal real~y to go into a place that is not frequented very often and see the disposal that human bein95 ~eave behind. You know, people where they have cabins that they frequent 3004

l April 29, 1980 Tape Mo. 1135 DW - 1 MR. T. RIDEOUT: in the Winter 1 to go back and walk through those areas in the Summer and see the pile up of garbage and that kind of thing. I believe we have to try to instill in some way or other into our people th~t if we continue to do this kind of thing, if we continue to practice that kind of thing, th~n the generations who are coming behind us will really have nothing but one large garbage dump to inherit.And I think that is criminal for those of us who practice it and we ougtht to do what we can to try to change that concept in this Province.

The ecological reserve concept also I find very interesting so that we can specific­ ally design and specifically reserve for ecological reasons areas that have a natural phenomena occuring in them. I think, for example,in my own constituency up in Grey Islands where over the last dozen years or so caribou has been transferred to that island that they have come along so well.

They have grown so well, the herd is developed so well that there has been a limited caribou hunt on the Grey Islands now for the last four or five years and that is due in large measure to the persistence and the commitment of Earl Pilgrim,who is the wildlife officer in that area. But Earl Pilgrim is not going to be in that area forever, he is not going to be the wildlife officer forver, he is net forever going to be tripping back and forth to the Grey Islands to make sure that that herd is protected and preserved.

And with this legislatio~ it is the Grey Islands type of situa- tion that can be declared an ecological reserve and hopefully pre- served so that the residents in that Roddickton area will be able to partake and use that resource as a recreation and as supplement for food forever more into the future. 2005

··'• April 29, 1980 MR. T. RIDEOUT: that was done. Tape No. 1135 ow - 2 It was certainly a great thing It is thriving and it is staying there but it is always going to have to be protected and you are not always going to have the kind of commitment that the wildlife officer in that area presently has. Mr. Speaker, I also want to mention briefly the damage that has been done to certain areas of this Province by the numerous gravel pits that has been occupied for months at a time all over - certainly all along the Trans-Canada Highway and all along the major secondary roads in this Province.

The minister made reference to Birchy Narrows. Well, I would say that starting now around the 24th. of May 1 or a week or so before the 24th. of May,up until --- ·- - --- October or November,; in the Birchy Narrows area there will be more people living there than there are living in a lot of small communities in this Province. There are no sewerage disposal sites, there are no sanitation disposal stations there 1and· the human waste and the garbage and · so on has just been .piling up there now for the last number of years.

And t~at is only one example of the many thousands of such sites distributed along the Trans-Canada ·Highway and along the major secondary roads. I believe that the time has come when the De9artment of Tourism and the government as a whole has to take some sort of firm stand against the destruction of our natural beauty and our natural heritage by that kind of thing. Now that does not mean to say that there has to be a total ban. I do not know what the answer is .but certainly I believe it should be thrown out for public participation. Because I have heard many people who drive that

section of the Trans­ Canada Highway complain and comolain very bitterlv about what they see happening and is allowed to continue to happen. JU06

7 April 29 1980 Tape No. 1135 DW - 3 MR. T. RIDEOUT: The minister made reference also to the destruction of that beautiful area along the Baie Verte Bighway. Just f~r simple efficiency, the company that was -·· -- -- --- paving the Toad at the time-co~~-:fficiency-did not go into the usual crushing and _:ompacti~~and spreading of roc~ to do the

section before the road was paved,but because of costs, because they could make a quick buck,they were allowed to gouge out one of the most beautiful, natural phenomena that you could find anywhere in this Province located along highway 410 on the Baie Verte Peninsula.

One of the few areas in the Province, I suppose, that I know of where you could harvest fresh-water mussels, one of the most beautiful, one of the most productive and abounding blueberry resource areas in the Province located in that same area, located also next to Flat Water Pond Provincial Park which is being utilized more and more every year and which 1 over the next few years,is . - - going to have to be expanded,And if it w~re expanded, M~. Speaker, the area that we are talking about would be a natural, it would certainly be included within the park expansion.

And now,because of the lack of forsight, because we were not in tune with what was happening at that time, a great area, a great natural area has been destroyed and can never more be rebuilt. I am also very interested in the ecological resource management plan that is built into this particular piece of legislation that if an area is declared an ecological reserve then a management plan will be drawn up for that area. I do not know if it says specifically in the legislation or not,but I would hope that input into that plan that would come from the people who live in the area.

I would hope that through the public hearing process the peoole would have a chance to say what this plan is made up of and what activity or not is allowed to qo on in this particular area. Because there is a :007

April 29 , 19 80 Tape 1136 EC - 1 MR. T. RIDEOUT: wealth of local knowledge, a wealth of local. expertise that I thinlc. we can tap in this particular area and - ou9ht to lio so . · so, Mr. Speaker, I certainly am enthusiastic about the principles outlined in this piece of 'legislation. It is an excellent piece of legislation. The minister and the administration, I believe, are to be complimented for bringing it in and I certainly support it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. S • NEARY : Mr.

Speaker, what a pathetic spectacle , to see an hon. me~er, Sir, being forced to toe the party line and not being allowed to speak his mind in this hon. House. That is the only reference I am going to make to that hon. gentleman, Sir. I am going to try to deal with this situation and put it in its proper perspective and not get up trying to weasel your way in with the minister and the administration. Mr.

Speaker, this particular bill could be a good piece of legislation, but I have grave doubts whether it is going to be or not, even though my colleague announced that we would support - I believe he did say we would support the bill, did he not? I was out discussing urgent public business at the time. SOME BON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. S • NEARY : But I believe I caught him there with one ear saying that he was going to support the legislation. But he said we would support it with reservations.

Well, if he said we will support it with reservations, he is our spokesman on this particular matter and I am afraid that I would have to go along with him, only probably I would be a little stronger in my reservations than the hon. gentleman. Mr . Speaker, the fact of the matter is that in this Province in recent years, we have become so mil itant and we have subjected our population to so many rules and regulations and a permit for this and a permit for that - AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! 3008

April 29, 1980 Tape 1136 EC - 2 MR. S • 'liEARY : - that the next thing you know they will be forcing you to get a permit to go to the men's room. AN BON. MEMBER: 'lhat is right. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Ray Simmons, a llliilil that I admire and respect - and I do not know what his politics are - I have b"een following his colllllleilts in, I believe it is Outdoor Life·- Is that the title of his - AN BON. MEMBER: OUtdoors. HR. S. NEARY : - Outdoors - is right on, Mr.

Speaker, when he says that pretty soon, if the government keeps bringing in rules and regulations and making this area out of bounds, that pond out of bounds, that river out of bounds, there will be no place for children to swim, there will be no place for hunters to hunt. The situation has gone too far 1 in my opinion. Windsor Lake down there, which is located right on the main highway - I have spent half my life driving back and forth to Bell Island and you had to pass by Windsor Lake - you are not allowed to fish in Windsor Lake, you are not allowed to swim in Windsor Lake, you are not allowed to skate on it.

The people who live in this area on the Avalon Peninsula who would love to be able to toss a line into Windsor Lake - and I am told ~ of the prize trout COII8 out of it on May 24th, regulations or no regulations, legally or illegally - they are not allowed to do it. Why are they not ulowed to do it? Because it is the city water supply, we are told. Now, you can drive along the highway and you can break the bottom pan of your car in the potholes down there on that road and the oil can run out in Windsor Lake. You can put a hole in your gas tank and your gas can run out into Windsor Lake.

You can drive along when the salt truck is going down there with salt and sand and that is flicked out into Windsor Lake. You can see bottles and cans flying out into Windsor Lake. AN HON. MEMBER: Sometimes cars (inaudible) . MR. S. NEARY: Yes, that is right, many a car has gone out there and people have come to an untimely death going out into Windsor Lake. But you are not allowed to skate and you are not allowed to throw a line out into Windsor Lake, when all that is required, Mr. Speaker, to 3009

- ..., AprU 29, 1980 '1'~ 1136 EC- 3 MR. S. NEARY: give the people of this Province, especially those an the Avalon Peninsul.a, access to that great natural resource, all you. need is a water treatment plant. 'lhe gaverJllll8nt say no to that, the City COuncil say no to that - bar it from the people, 201n

,. toll;··. April 29, 1980, Tape 1137, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: keep the people away from it. The same way with Bay Bull Big P.ond, you have the same thing. People used to do a little boating. I believe you can operate a boat on Gander Lake. As a matter of fact, I have - been out on Gander Lake. I do not know if they have changed their tune on that in recent years, but several years ago I was out on Gander Lake with an outboard, and Gander Lake, I believe, is the supply of drinking water for the town of Gander, is. it not? And can you not boat in Gander Lake? And do they have a water treatment plant in Gander?

Well, there you go. Why do they not have it in St. John's? The argument, I presume, it is too expensive. That is the argument, I presume. Why is anything too expensive to give our people, the people of this Province a little fun, and a little play, and a little recreational facility on their off-time, on their leisure time? Is that asking too much? Or will we take the line of least resistance and argue that a water treatment plant is too expensive? Because that is what we are doing, Mr. Speaker.

And that is what we are doing in this legislation; we are now carving out, the government is going to carve out large sections of Newfoundland that will only be accessible to the rich, to the wealthy. Why, this is the Frank Moores thinking, that is what this is. Obviously, it is one of the ideas that was copied from him, that he left behind. If he had his way the salmon rivers and the ponds and the fishing holes of this Province would only be accessible to those who can afford helicopters and planes on floats. Mr.

Speaker, there are too many 'no hunting, no fishing' and other restrictive signs going up in this Province. MR. WHITE: We need more no litterings. 3011

,. Ill April 29, 1980, Tape 1137, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: That is right. If we had a few more 'No littering' signs we would be better off. And half the time these ideas are being pushed, as Ray Simmons ?ays, by puppets who are on the public pay~ roll. We are losing our personal freedom in this. Province, Mr. Speaker, and I hope all han. members will have a go at this bill because it does restrict. Again it is a restrictive measure to cut down on the areas that are accessible to people in this Province who like the outdoors.

I did not hear the minister, when he got up, address himself to Sunday hunting in this Province. That is something that is going to have to be dealt with. The hon. gentleman has managed to evade that one so far. But people are clamouring for Sunday hunting. I do not know if I am for or against it. I am not the government. If I were the government I would take a decision. If I were the minister I would take a stand. So,therefore, I do not have to say whether I am for or against it at this moment.

I would say that people who go out picking blueberries in the evenings and on weekends and on holidays do have a point, and the people who want to hunt on Sunday have a point. Fortunately I do not have to make the decision. If I had to make it I would make it. When I was Minister of Social Services, for there and a half years, I made decisions, I will guarantee you that, I made decisions. Rightly or wrongly, I made decisions.

And one of the biggest decisions I made was to change the demeaning voucher in this Province,that people had to go and collect from the Welfare and bring down to the stores to cash, to getting paid by cash. What is the hon. gentleman looking at me now and holding in his hand and waving at me? Oh, is it not wonderful? Is it not wonderful? 3 0 1 2

April 29, 1980, Tape 1137, Page 3 -- apb MR. NBITE: Report. MR . NEARY: Ask b±m about the Mahoney Yes, and ask hi.

n) about - you know, _ today in this House - MR. WHITE : Ask hil'G about that . . MR. NEARY: - we heard the J;lr.ei!der say that he nas not dealt with this government because he considered it to be - the new government up in Ottawa a hangover frOJil the previous governJilent. MR. S'l'A:GG: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : A paint of order. The han. t;he member for Steppenville. MR. STAGG: The member f.ar LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has been irrelevant i.il his debate now for approximate:l,y two or three minutes. If he is finished ,r would like to get an. Mr. Speaker, he is obviously being irrelevant. MR .• SPMKER: of order'? No one speaking on that po;i,nt 3013

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1138 GH-1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have to admit that I was a bit carried away there. The hon. gentleman who is trying to get into the Cabinet carried me away there a little bit, and I apologize to Your Honour for being irrelevant because I am afraid I was at that particular moment. MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) There really was a legitimate point of order under relevancy rule and since the han. member has withdrawn, I will recognize him again. The hon. member for Lapoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the han. minister will have to address himself to the matter of sunday hunting in this Province sooner or later. Well, the sooner the better. The hon. gentleman has managed to procrastinate now for several months. He is getting himself on a sticky wicket and he is soon going to have to face up to his responsi­ bilities and take a stand, take a decision. I have no respect or no admiration for a man who will be wishy-washy when he is placed in a position of trust 1 in a responsible position and not take a stand.

You have one group in this Province saying there should be hunting on Sunday, and you have another group saying, no, Sunday is the only day we have to go pick berries and go out and walk down the trails and enjoy the country. The minister, only the minister, can decide and that minister should state his policy now while we are on this bill, state his policy and not procrastinate any longer. Procrastination is the thief of time, and it is about time now that the han. gentleman told us where he stands on that particular matter. But, Mr.

Speaker, as I cannot help but repeat myself, 'No Hunting' signs, 'No Fishing' signs and other restrictive signs are going up all over the Province every day. Every day a certain part of this Province is being restricted to the ordinary people and prett y soon we will have a flag, we might have a flag but it will be flying over a Province where you have to be careful where you walk, you might be in a restricted area. You might be in an area that is out of bounds. In these areas that the minister is talking about in this bill, you c~~ot go in on a skidoo, and what are people going to do?

Are they going to go around with a map in their hands? 3 u 1 4

·( April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1138 GH-2 MR. NEARY: The people down in my district are the best skidooers in Newfoundland. They have often gone from Port aux Basques to Burgee in their skidoos. Now, what do they do? Do they carry a map and they say, "Oh, we have to fly over this area" or "we have to go around this area" MR. LUSH: Avoid it. MR. NEARY: "Avoid the area", and we do not know what the areas are, and they will not know what they are.

The next thing you know they are sailing along on their skidoo enjoying life, going to their cabin, and by-and-by a helicopter swoops down and says, "I am sorry, boy, but you are in a reserved area here. This is set aside for the businessmen, for the well-to-do, for the rich in this Province, for the fellows who have the helicopters and the planes. You cannot come in here with your poor old skidoo. You are only an ordinary Newfoundlander. You are only an ordinary person." You are hauled into court, your skidoo is confiscated - MR. WHITE: A $1,000 fine. MR.

NEARY: - and a $1,000 fine, and do not think it cannot happen, because all you have to do is look at the wildlife regulations in this Province. I remember one time I had a fellow from Bell Island who had never been in the country in his life. He decided that he would not be in style unless he went moose hunting. All his friends used to go moose hunting. Never had a gun in his life, never had a permit, a licence, in his life, and he went moose hunting, and he never got a moose.

He had a mattress in the back of his van, and on the way back he said to the two young fellows who were with him, he said, "I am going to get in the back and have a nap. One of you fellows drive the van." And all of a sudden she stopped. There was a screech of brakes and she stopped, and one of the young fellows said, "Quick, there is a moose on the side of the road!" So he jumped out, grabbed his gun and let her have it. Where do you think he was, Mr. Speaker? In the Terra Nova National Park. He knew nothing about boundaries. He was hauled into court, hauled into court, his van was taken, his gun was 3 0 1 5

. ~ April 29, 1980 MR. NEARY: was fined - MR. STAGG: MR. NEARY: MR. HODDER: in a van. Tape No. 1138 GH-3 was taken, his ammunition was taken and he What about his mattress? - yes, the mattress - and he was fined $1,000. The moral of the story is never go to sleep MR. NEARY: The moral of the story is that the poor fellow was nearly forced on welfare because he ran a 3 u 1 s

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1139 SD - 1 MR. 5. NEARY: meat market on Bell Island and he needed his van to operate his store. MR. N. llOYLE: He was one of the richest men on Bell Island. MR. s. NEARY: He was one of the richest men on Bell Island. Well, if the hon. gentleman thinks he was the richest men on Bell Island, I would not want to see one of the richest men on Bell Island, he was a little lowly poor old butcher i.., Lance cove in case the hon. gentleman does not know about it. MR. N. llOYLE: Lance Cove. MR. S. NEARY: Lance Cove I am talking about. The hon. member for Harbour Main - Bell Island (Mr. N.

Doyle) does not know where that is. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. S. NEARY: They are still looking for the hon. gentleman over there. MR. G. WARREN: He does not get there very often. MR. S. NEARY: And so, Mr. Speaker, the point that I am making is do not think it can not happen. MR. F. STAGG: He is there every week. MR. S. NEARY: There every week, oh, yes, well I will be over there the end of the week, invited over the end of the week. I hope the hen. gentleman will join me over there so that people can see what he looks like.

They are wondering about the oil in the mines and they are wondering about the ferries and they ~re wondering about a few jobs this year. But anyway, I am getting lead astray again, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: He is a good member. MR. S , NEARY: Yes, a good member alright. That is why they are calling me all of the time and writing me and trying to get me to solve their problems. You know, I am almost tempted - only for I love LaP6ile, I love the people in LaPoile district so much - I would almost be tempted to come back and give the hen. gentleman I'.R. G. WARREN: A run for his life. 3 0 1 7

T I April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1139 SD - 2 MR. S • NEARY: - the root. I woul.d almost be tempted. If I was the hen. gentleman I woul.d not dare 111e very much, do net dare 1re , do not tempt me MR. G. WARREN: Right en, right on, you are talking 'Steve'. MR. S. NEARY: Ah, it is sickening, Mr. Speaker, to hear the way my former constituents on Bell Island are being treated. I woul.d almost be tempted. MR. N. DOYLE: (Inaudible) LaPoile MR. S. NEARY: Oh, is that so. The hon. gentleman does not realize that the Premier sent in the big guns to try to do that the last time. MR. G. WARREN: Double barrelled. MR. L.

THO!'.S: cabot Martin ooul.d not de it. MR. S • NEARY: And it is not a matter of getting elected, the first time you get elected is easy but getting re-elected is the problem, Mr. Speaker. MR. F. STAGG: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. L. THOMS : Jumping Jack is back again. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : A point of order, the hon. ~rember for Stephenville. MR. F. STAGG: The point of order is obvious. The hon. gentleman got up and he criticized the bill that his colleague had supported wholeheartedly. When he ran out of criticisms he started getting into matters that are totally irrelevant.

He is now talking about trying to skedaddle back from the West coast to the East, he must be in trouble in his own district. I think he shoul.d get on to the bill, Mr. Spaaker. MR. SPEAKER: I weul.d have to rule that there is a point of order and the hon. gentleman is being rather irrevelant and I would ask him to confine his remark3 to the bill. MR. S. NEARY: I have been elected six times in a row, Mr. Speaker, and that is more than I can say for the hon. member 3 0 1 B

April 29, 1980 Tape No. 1139 SD - 3 MR. S. NEARY: for stephenville (Mr. F. Stagg) or the hen, member for Harbour Main - Bell Island (Mr. N. Doyle) and his big job will be getting re-elected - MR. N. DOYLE: MR. S • NEARY: that is easy. No problem. • - not getting elected the first time, But anyway, Mr. Speaker, I am very concemed about this loss of personal freedom.

I believe it is only a matter of the govemment changing its policy, changing its philosophy and instead of taking the easy way out,· the line of least resistance, and going out and declaring this a watershed and that a watershed, and now they are down in Portugal Cove declaring all the ponds down there a watershed,because the people of Portugal Cove need drinking water, when in actual fact all the people in Portugal Cove have drinking water at the present time.

And the government has spent enough money putting artesian wells in portugal Cove but now this pond because all the well-to-do have their cottages down by the lake- MR. L. THOMS : That is the real reason for it. MR. S • NEARY: That is the real reason, Mr. Speaker, they have their cottages down there and they do not want anybody to invade their privacy. They are down there in seclusion. I was down there once, I remember, I came across Miller's Pond, I was invited down to visit somebody who wanted to have a meeting and I was coming across Miller's Pond MR. F. STAGG: MR. S. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. S.

NEARY: MR. F. STAGG: MR. SPEAKER: a point of order. MR. F. STAGG: This is irrelevant. This is relevant, It is relevant. I beg your pardon, it is relevant. A point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Stephenville on Down in Portugal Cove going across Miller's Pond, I can not see that being relevant. MR. HISCOCK: Well, you should listen. 3019

April 29, 1980 MR. F. WB;l:TE : MR.. SPEAKER (Butt) : lllE!mber for Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Tape No. 1139 so- 4 Mr. Speaker, to the point of order. To the point of order, the hon. The hon. gentleman for LaPoile (Mr. Necuy) is being vezy relevant. Be is talking about the environment in this Province, that is what this bill is all about and I suggest that - MR. S • NEARY: This time I am right on. MR. F. WH~: - the member for Stephenville (Mr. F. Stagg-), Mr. Speaker, is just trying to interrupt the hon. gentleman and throw him off track. MR. WARREN: Which is typical. MR.

SPEAKER: To the point of order, I would rule that there is no point of order at this particular time and I would ask the hon. member for LaPoile to continue. SOME BON. MEMBERS: MR. L. THOMS: MR. S • NEARY: Hear, hear. Sho t d.own again . I: want to cong-ratulate Your Honour for being so familar with the rW:es, I: congratulate Your Honour for that. Well I started to tell a story - I got sidetracked - but the point that I am making here, Mr.

Speaker, is this, I knew all about Miller's Pond, I came across there one evening, you would not know b t it was John Cabot landing- in the front of the boat me and a few of my cohorts and colleagu .. s but the point I am making, Mr. Speaker, is this that the well-to-do and the weal thy and the land grabbers are buying up too mllch land around where these resorts are. And they are barring- our people from access to ponds and lakes, traditional fishing holes. What is tl1e hen. gentleman grinning at over there? MR. STAGG: MR. S . NEARY: I am amused by the hon. member (inaudil::le) Well, of course. But, Mr.

Speaker, 30 20

April 29, 1980, Tape 1140, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: I am very concerned about this and a lot of Newfoundlanders are concerned about it because, Mr. Speaker, what the government could do under this bill-is deny the ordinary person the only little bit of pleasure that he has left in this world. MR. WARREN: The outdoor life.· MR. NEARY The outdoor life. MR. WARREN: Right on: Right on! MR. NEARY: There now, while you are almost on the brink of a third world war you have artificial insemination. You have it all now.

They are taking away all the pleasures and the only thing we have left is the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the rivers,and the ponds, and the lakes and now, under this bill, they are likely to take them away from us too. MR. WARREN: It is shameful. MR. NEARY: It is shameful. It is a very dangerous piece of legislation. It puts too much power in the hands of the minister. It gives very little opportunity for public hearing even though it is referred to in the bill, very little opportunity.

People are so busy today trying to cope with the high cost of electricity and the high cost of living, unemployment, inflation, school taxes, high taxes, they are so busy with these things that they cannot afford to take the time to go out and employ a lawyer. And the government think because they put a little clause in there saying, 'There will be public hearings' - in this particular instance the public hearings are rather restricted, Mr. Speaker.

It is hard enough and difficult enough for people to cope with the problems of ordinary day life without having to go out and fight for the right to go in the country and enjoy yourself. And that is what is happening here, Mr. Speaker. This crowd have managed now to haul down the 3021

April 29, 1980, Tape ll40, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: Union Jack and trample on Hear, hear! They are ~oing to have a flag flying over a country where you are not free. ru: least under the Union Jack you felt free. Whether you were or not, I suppose, is a matter for debate. MR. WARREN: brought the bill in. MR. NEARY: Maybe that is why they But under this one, with the big rocket in the centre of it - it will be flying over a Province that is not free. MR. SPEAKER(Butt): Order, please! MR. NEARY: No fishing! No hunting! MR. SPEAI<ER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Is my time up? MR.

SPEAI<ER: No. Order, please! The hon. gentleman has gone from the bill now to the flag, and I would ask him to confine his remarks to the bill. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, probably that is about the only way that I can get the message across, that there are far more important things in this Province to think about than to be bringing in restrictive legislation like this. We have

an act on here - where is it? - "An Act To Amend The Embalmers And Funeral Directors Act". MR. THOMS: I am waiting for that one. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman is waiting for that one. And we have all kinds of bills on here that I would consider to be non-essential, unimportant, at this particula