Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 64 (26th Legislature, 5th Session)

26-5-64

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Vol. VII No. 64 8:00 p.m. Thursday, April 12, 1962. 5th Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans. Queen's Printer fot' the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

. THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Thursday, April 12, 1962 MR. CHAIBMAN: Department XIII, Resolution 76. Item 3. Passed? MR.--PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, just before we rose, I asked for information regard ing a young fellow who was killed in an accident at Grand Rapids and I asked the Minister as to whether or not I may have a copy of the report of the circumstances surrounding the death of this person, and I wonder whether or not the Minister can reply. MR. CARROLL: Mr.

Chairman, I haven't seen a copy of the report but like most other inter-departmental reports, I would say that this would be a privileged document and would not be available to members of the House. However, there has been a coroner's inquest and I think we can undertake to make a copy of the report of the coroner's inquest available as we did in connection with the other accident at Thompson. We could possibly do that by lodging it in the library as we did in the past.

The file in connection with this, I understand, is now un der consideration by one of the Crown Attorneys for any action that they may deem necessary. Now, with respect to the accident. The reason it wasn't.included in our report for last year was that the report includes all of those accidents where the investigation has been com pleted prior to December 15. There has to be a close-off date there to make sure they have the material ready for the publication of our annual report.

Investigation of the accident at that time was in the hands of the Department of Mines and the RCMP and we weren't directly in volved with the investigation. I'm advised that the work of the joint inter-departmental commit tee on the handling, storage and use of explosives has progressed to the point where recommen dations have been made to all �mployers in the Province of Manitoba who use explosives, and we understand that they have welcomed these recommendations and have assured us that they will be using them in their work in the future.

These will subsequently be written into regula tions under our Building Trades Protection Act. I do have some further information with respect to the tank explosion at the CPR. The practice of the department is to investigate all railway accidents where we have been invited or notified by the police that they would like the assistance of our department in investigating it, anci in this particular case I am advised that no invitation or notification was received.

Our mechanical engineering division contacted the CPR and offered assistance but they said at that time that the facts were quite clear and our assistance would not be needed, so we did not take

part in that investigation. Now the Member for St. John's is not here. He was inquiring about the Fair Accommo dation Practices, Fair Employment Practices, and what the department would be doing in pub licizing these acts, and I would like to say that there is an amount of $500. 00 unde� Adminis tration which can be used at least partly for this purpose. We do thank him for his suggestions that he's made with respect to this particular situation.

He, I believe, has forwarded some copies of some of the literature that's being used in Ontario, and we would hope to be able to implement some of these suggestions here in Manitoba. There was one other question in connection with how the cheques are sent out under our system for vacations with pay system. We send out cheques to all employers who have employ ees registered as of the end of June -- send out to them cheques in the names of those employ ees who are on their payroll at that date.

Any cheques that are returned are held in the de partment, or any cheques that can't go out by virtue of the fact that we have no address for them at that date are held in the department. We do try through the Unemployment Insurance Office or through the telephone directory to trace these people and send cheques to them.

We do have, though, a number of workmen who have not received vacation pay cheques yet for the period ending July lst of last year' and if in any way the press can publicize this, there may be some workmen who could use the money that is owing to them as a result of their vacation pay of last year. I think that's about all for now, Mr. Chairman. / MR. WRIGHT: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister a question about -- in fact the Minister today mentioned that we had contractors who could buy a beat-up truck and throw on a plastering box and go into business, and we have a lot of trouble with these people sometimes. Shortly after the 1950 flood we had all sorts of people start up in the contracting business. It seems to me that we should have some better control. We have to license barbers. April 12th, 1962 Page 1749

(Mr. Wright, cont'd.) • . Nearly every type of trademan is licensed except our contractors. I don't know why we shouldn't have some form of licensing or some method of testing them to find out whether they have the ability to take oh these jobs that they bid on. Has the Minister any ideas along the lines of licensing these contractors in view of the fact that we're getting so many of them in second grade category? MR. CARROLL: Well, while we do have a lot of contractors in business, that's true, we don't have too many of the kind that we're talking about here.

I must confess we have given some consideration to licensing them. l think the simplest and probably most effective means of dealing with the situation is the one that we are implementing with the amendment to our Employment Standards Act whereby we can request these people to post a bond who are offen ders, and I think this will enable us to get control of most of these fellows who are repeating violators under this Act. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister for this information regarding the accident at Grand Rapids.

If I understood the honourable gentleman correctly, he said that one of the reasons that this wasn't reported was because the investigation hadn't been completed by December 15th -- I think that's what my friend said -- but I want to draw to his attention his departmental report, page 128 and 129, in which, I believe that this acci dent did occur somewhere around the 7th of November.

I may not be absolutely correct on the date, but I do note that there are three in here listed for the month of November, and then the report itself states that there were no fatalities reported in the months of January, Febru ary, March, April, August, September and December.

Now it seems peculiar to me that this is not reported in the departmental report, and I'm reasonably sure that if it wasn't on the 7th of November it certainly happened in the month of November, and then the report goes on to say that there were no fatalities in December of the same year, so it doesn't seem quite to jibe with the information that the Minister may have obtained. Also, Mr.

Chairman, it seems rather peculiar to me that here we are in the month of April and the matter is still in the hands of the Attorney-General's department apparently, as to whether or not action might be taken in respect of the accident. I don't know whether we can say anything to the Minister of Labour in respect of this, but it does seem to me to be. a long period of time from the month of Novem- 'ber in which month the accident took place. I would presume that the investigation must have been completed by now if the Minister is in a position to lay the coroner's inquest hearing statements, or evidence.

He has that information already -- at least I thought, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister said, made the statement that he had this and that a copy of it would be placed for our convenience in the library. That was my understanding from my friend in his opening remarks this evening. It seems rather strange to me that there hasn't been action taken on this matter, if there is going to be action taken, before this time. Now I don't know whether or not the Honourable the Minister of Labour may have this information or not. Does he know whether or not any compensation was paid in respect of this fatality?

I haven't been able to ascertain as to whether or not there has been. I would like to know. And then I would also like to know from the Minister when we might expect a copy of the report of the inquest to be placed in the library for our perusal. MR. CARROLL: I should just answer this question before we leave it for something else. As I mentioned a minute ago, our report here contains all of the accidents we of the department have investigated up to the 15th of December. This accident wasn't investigated by us because it is in a quite remote area.

We were relying on the information that we were getting from the RCMP and the Department of Mines as far as I know and obviously that mater ial hadn't come to us in time to be incorporated in our report, and I expect will show up in our report for next year. As far as the delay, if there is any -- I don't know about that.. I presume the Attorney-General's department is handling this in the normal way. I don't know whether the report of the coroner's inquest is available yet. I understand it isn't, but I could be wrong. But as soon as it is available we could undertake to have a copy filed with the report.

As far as compensation is concerned, certaiiily they would be entitled to the funeral arrangements, I would think. If he has dependents then presumably they would be drawing compensation as a result of this fatality. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, if the Minister of Labour hasn't the information re garding the evidence of the coroner's inquest, I wonder if his colleague, the Honourable the -·,Page 1750 April 12th, 1962

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd.) . . Attorney-General might know. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, the last word I had from the department was that the in quest evidence was not available. There was correspondence from the Crown-Attorney who is handling the matter, saying he, too, was awaiting it, and he has asked that it be expedited, and until he had had a chance to peruse that evidence he was not in a position, apparently, to _make a recommendation to us concerning any charges. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, do I gather from the Attorney-General then, that the coroner's inquest has completed its hearings and that the Crown attorney is in the process of perusing the same in order to see whether or not there are charges to be laid? If that is the case the_n,Mr. Chairman, I'd suggest that there is available a copy of the coroner's inquest evidence now. --(Interjection)-- Pardon? MR. LYON: • • . • transcribed, according to my information. MR. PAULLEY: Well then how is your attorney considering it. MR. LYON: He's not. He's waiting to get it before he can make a final recommenda tion to us.

That's the information that was given to me. It's double hearsay . . . • • MR. PAULLEY: I think it's a lot of hearsay. MR. PETERS: The Minister reported on the question of the -- my colleague the· Hon ourable Member for St. John's asked about how much money was available in connection with these fair employment practices. I wonder if the Minister could tell us if they're going to use this money in literature that they're going to distribute or make available to people, or what are they going to do? MR.

CARROLL: As I understand it we've already distributed copies of our Acts to all hotels and places of that kind where this Act will apply. I understand that we will be making representation either by mail or through inspectors to all resort areas, all hotels and places of public accommodation during the next year to acquaint them with the policy of the govern ment with respect to discrimination. Now we haven't determined our program yet but there will be a program this year -- this summer, prior to the summer holiday season. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, a few months ago I read a report in the newspaper that the government was thinking of licensing the TV repair man. Now, is that still the inten tion of the government, is it just that this couldn't be ready for this session, or has there been a change of heart on this matter? Apparently the reason given was to protect the people also, because there were too many people that knew so little about TV repairs that it seemed to be too many of those people were being penalized by their ignorance and the government apparent ly wanted to protect these people. MR.

CARROLL: We have legislation that is being prepared. I don't know -- I think the Electrician's License Act has had first reading. We're waiting now for the bill� .

As soon as they appear we will be able to proceed with second reading and at that time we'll be able to give you a full explanation of the new categories of licences that will be set up, one of which would include TV repairmen, which will of course not become effective until proclamation which would be later this year after we've had an opportunity to establish our licensing boards and our standards for TV people and all of the other categories that will be considered. MR.

PETERS: When I was speaking·this afternoon I raised the question of compensa tion and I thought that there was a separate item that I could bring it up under. Is there any where that I can bring this up under now, or should I bring it up here? I didn't get an answer from the Minister when I asked him if they were going to do anything about making old cases - bringing them up-to-date on their present wage level if they have re-occurrences of their pre vious accidents. Has the government taken into consideration of bringing it up to present day wage levels ? MR.

CARROLL: We're not proposing any changes to our workmen's compensation legislation this year. MR. E. I. DOW (Turtle Mountain): Talking of Workmen's Compensation, I know the answers that are in effect substantiating this particular case, but I am bringing it to this House and this committee as a matter of an example of which I think this House could take some action in. An individual was working as a laborer and was hurt after ten weeks of which he had con tributed through unemployment insurance stamps, and he was hurt at the tenth week.

He was on workmen's compensation and the dates roughly are -- he was hurt somewhere about the end April 12th, 1962 .Page 1751

(Mr. Dow, cont'd.) • . . of June and he was cleared from workmen's compensation about the middle of November. The gang that he was working with as a carpenter had completed their work for the summer and therefore he had no work. He applied to Unemployment Insur ance and was told he didn't have suff icient stamps.

He collected workmen's compensation for the period from, roughly the first of July 'till November, and due to the fact that he was under compensation -- and I understand that because he's under compensation that there are no stamps necessary to be put in his pay book -- therefore he wasn't eligible for unemployment insurance.

I think this committee could take some recognition of cases of this, because it did create a hardship for this particular -- he's a married man with a large family, and had he not been hurt he'd have been working at that time and would have been eligible but due to the fact that he was under compensation therefore he wasn't, under law, obliged to participate -- Work men's Compensation don't participate -- therefore he didn't have the qualifications, but I think this committee and the department could take under consideration that some consideration should be given to individuals of that type to protect them from seasonal work particularly in this particular case.

Another point that I wish to bring up, Mr. Chairman. I understand that the department has now stopped issuing transient traders' licence under the department for these people that travel throughout the country doing certain jobs, and I have in mind certain individuals that will travel from town to town and farm to farm contracting for painting and renovating buildings, and particularly in roofing material, and all they are doing actually is using oil and a little bit of lamp black -- the first rain comes along, it's all washed off.

We have found that these people -- it would be some protection if they were carrying a licence, and possibly that under 1_ the trade that they were in if there were some type of a bond set up by the Department of La bour which would protect the individuals. MR. CARROLL: Mr. Chairman, I think that the licensing of itinerant salesmen and people like that is normally done under the aegis of the municipality. I know of no licensing of people like this through a provincial department.

As far as your question about the unem ployment insurance being payable to people who are on compensation, I think probably you might well refer to your colleague from La VeFendrye who hopes to be able to do something about this a few months from now. MR.

DOW: I realize those answers, but I'm wondering if this department couldn't do something to protect these illdividuals, and in regard to the municipal licensing, it was a fact a few years ago that these people had to have a provincial licence, which was done away with some few years ago, and I would recommend that the department take into consideration that this be re-established. -- this handling of licensing, Mr. Chairman, •..• came under your department. MR.

CARROLL: My advice is that it didn't -'-now there may be some other depart ment that you could raise this on but I don't believe it's the Department of Labour. MR. PETERS: Mr. Chairman, still dealing with compensation, could the Minister tell me -- does the Compensation Board pay anything into the Manitoba Hospital Services Plan so that if somebody goes onto compensation, their hospital care is paid for by the Compensation Board but still while they are in hospital -- and they could be. in there. for two or three months -- they are still obliged to pay their premium for hospital.

What does the Compensation Board pay into the Plan? MR. CARROLL: Now while they're in hospital they presumably would be drawing com pensation at the rate of 75% of their salary. There's nothing in addition to that paid towards hospitalization as far as I know. MR. N. SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr. Chairman, when the Honourable Minister was replying to a question put by the Honourable Member for Seven O.aks he suggested that most contractors of any repute at all were required to post a bond. Is that so with architects? Do they have to post a bond? MR.

PAULLEY: • . not dealing with compensation though, if the Minister would like to finish up on compensation first. ' MR. SHOEMAKER: I have another question on the same subject matter that has been brought to my attention by Resolution No 29 that the Union of Municipalities passed at their last convention. It's a very brief one but it does bring up a point, and I will point out a couple of Page 1752 April 12th, 1962

(Mr. Shoemaker, cont'd.) • • instances to support what they're asking for here, and I don't know whether it's under this particular item but I think it has to do with labour. The re solution is -- Resolved that the city council request the Manitoba Government to consider imple menting legislation to require a guarantee by engineers, architects and construction firms for work designed, supervised and constructed for a period of from three to five years. Now in the Town of Neepawa, two or three years after we built our hospital there -- a quarter of a million dollar structure or so -- the roof went bad.

They checked it and they found about 200 holes in the roof. Now we were successful, after a lot of negotiating, to have the roofing firm , the architect and the contractor jointly :..._ the three of them -- put a new roof on, but I under stand that they were not obligated to do it; that is, their work was not guaranteed.

A further instance of why this is necessary, we found in lagoons that are put in -- and it seems that in that department there isn't too much knowledge on lagoons, not too much experience on them, and the architects design them, the engineers will put them in, and probably after they're in for a year or two they find that they're not working satisfactorily, and it seems to me that there should be some protection.

After you spend a quarter of a million dollars of the people's mon ey there should be some protection, and as they suggest in the resolution here, some way of guaranteeing that the work will be satisfactory for a period of from three to five years, they suggest. Now, Mr. Chairman, there is one other item that I would like to bring up and I don't know under which item in the Labour estimates I should raise the point, but I wrote to the Hon ourable Minister on November 14th last relative to a situation at Thompson that certainly re sulted in a problem for many of the towns in the province.

I don't believe that up to now the Minister has mentioned this but it seems to me that -- it was brought to my attention, rather, by several individuals that th� men that were going to Thompson to obtain work, and there must have been thousands of them doing that because of the fact that International Nickel were advertising widely from coast to coast in Canada that there was plenty of work available at Thompson. I suppose when they made application for the work they were presented with a card that said: "W ork available at Thompson," or probably they clipped it out of the paper -- I don't know.

When they got to The Pas, they had to report to the company doctor there for a medical and, I suppose that the medical examination was pretty rigid one and it resulted in probably 50% of the people being turned down for work. This situation left a great number of people stranded. And I have a letter from Dauphin saying that the Salvation Army, the RCMP and other organizations had been obliged, you might say, to put these stranded people up overnight, or keep them there for two or three days until they could gather enough money together to get back home again.

Now so serious was this situation in some places that the Dauphin radio station had a 15-minute interview about two months ago with one of these chaps from Ottawa, and this fellow from Dauphin phoned me to advise me to tune in on this broadcast so I went home and connected my tape recorder up and took it off on tape. He pointed up what was hap pening to many people. Now this chap, as I said, was from Ottawa. He was one of the fellows that was turned down by the medical doctor in The Pas and he didn't have any money.

He had about $71. 00 when he left, went up there; he was stranded, and he thought that it was a most unfair situation; that these people should know before they leave home that they were going to run into, or likely to run into this problem. This particular man that they interviewed on the radio, realizing that probably a medical would be asked for, went to his medical doctor in Otta wa and had a medical, and the doctor there told him that he was A-1. However, when he gets up to The Pas and goes before the medical examiner there, he thought otherwise and turned him down.

Now I want to thank the Minister for the letter and the prompt letter too, Mr. Chair man, that I received from him in this connection, and my honourable friend points out in the second paragraph of the letter that "it is our intention to fully investigate this matter to see whether a procedure might be evolved which would be satisfactory to INCO and to the potential employees of this company as well." My honourable friend did ask me if I could get one of these "work available" cards. Well I couldn't because of the reason that they're all turned in to the doctor.

Apparently they must leave them with the doctor, because this very question was asked in the interview at Dauphin with the radio station; they wanted one of these cards and apparently they file them with the doctor and that's the way the doctor gets paid. So I was un able to assist my honourable friend in this regard. But my question is: has an investigation April 12th, 1962 Page 1753

(Mr. Shoemaker, cont'd.) • • been made and, if so, what were the results? MR. CARROLL: Well I must say I don't think there has been a thorough investigation made of this matter./ It has been drawn to the attention of International Nickel that this is a complaint th::i,t we are getting from certain individuals, I think there have been some also from the Town of The Pas and possibly a few other places as well. I'm afraid that we really can't interfere too much with the hiring policy of INCO. They have determined that this is the way they want to hire people and I suppose we really can't interfere too much.

But I do appreciate the problem because I know that a great many of these people have been stranded in the North farther than Dauphin and have had to have assistance from the municipality. With respect to the architects and engineers, I would say that if an architect were an employer and if he failed to pay wages and we convicted him of that then he might be required to be bonded, but that's the only way in which we as a Department of Labour could be interested in a bonding of any professional man or any tradesman for that matter.

And that, of course, will depend upon the Employment Standards Act being passed at this session of the House. Now, I believe, maybe the Attorney-General might have had some further information with respect to the resolution that you are talking about at the Urban Association or the Union Convention. MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, I couldn't understand when the Minister said that compen sation would be taken under review or consideration because with the safety practices and edu cation we have now, there's less call on the compensation fund.

I can't see it here but looking through the year book or some place, I see where the government holds over $30 million in the Compensation Trust Fund. And like has been mentioned here where people are living on wages far beneath minimum wages even, in fact they're on compensation some of them have to apply for welfare to exist, and the Minister didn't think that they were going to take it under consider ation and yet there's a sum of $30 million held here in the Trust Fund. MR.

CARROLL: I think my only comment is that the Trust Fund, of course, is estab lished to pay off those obligations which the Compensation Board already have. They're people on permanent disability and on permanent partial disability now who will be receiving payments · from the fund over a good number of years. I think the information that we get is th� fund could likely not afford to pay out any more with respect to old disabilities without jeopardizing the fund itself.

Of course, we will be looking at the Workmen's Compensation Act during the next few months and certainly this is one of the things that we will be taking into consideration. MR. PETERS: Mr. Chairman, one thing that worries me is a thing that happens in larger factories and manufacturing places and industries where a fellow gets hurt and instead of going on compensation is told to sit around and he gets his full pay and doesn't go on com pensation, and then later on complications set in and he finds out that he can't claim on com pensation anymore, that the accident hasn't been reported and"then he's stuck. MR.

CHAIBMAN: Item 3 - passed? MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, I believe that the Honourable the Attorney-General got up to make a reply and then, as usual, was interrupted by us characters on this side of the House. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, my only recollection of the resolution to which the honour able member refers is that it was discussed at the Urban Association Convention and, if my memory serves me, it was not passed. I believe it was put forward by the City of Portage La Prairie and there was a fair amount of discussion on it.

And although I wasn't present during all of that discussion, word came to me that the resolution had not been passed and I think for a very good reason; that the bonding of professional people of architects, engineers and so on is just another way of increasing the cost of the services that are asked for. You don't need a bond. If you want a professional guarantee from an architect or from an engineer for a sta,ted period -- you contract for that. It's a matter of contractual arrangement between the architect, the engineer and the person for whom he's rendering professional service.

If you put it in the law, make it a statutory condition the fact is that you' re just going to raise the cost of all of. these service holus bolus across the board for all people utilizing these services in the pro vince, and I don't think that's what any of the municipalities would want or, for that matter, any honourable member of this House. I think that those were the basic and over-riding rea sons that were discussed and, I think, that led to the defeat of the resolution. Page 1754 April 12th, 1962

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd.) I suggest to the honourable member and to others jn the committee that those were good reasons for the defeat of the resolution; that these are matters that can be arranged pri vately between a municipality that wants a five-year guarantee from a contractor or from an engineer or from an architect. Let them state thatwhen t hey enter intotheoriginalcontractwith the architect, but don't try to do it by statute and impose these conditions on others who may be perfectly happy to have a much shorter period of guarantee. MR. P AULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I have one or two questions that I'd like to direct to the Minister. The first one is: has the case in regards fo'th�N:illage of Brooklands and the fatality in an excavationbeen completed? -- the Village ofBrooklands a::.:!ont::.inedin the report, Page 148 . I also notice, Mr. Chairman, that under the Minimum Wage Act it appears as though there were only three prosecutions or three charges laid unde rthe minimum wage

section of the Employment Stand ards Act and these were stayed. Now I would like to hear from the Minister as to whether or not these were the only cases of violations that his department was aware of in respect of the Mini mum Wage Act.

I would like to know from him how much inspecting is done among employers , particularly the like of drug stores that employ young girls particularly during the months of the summer holidays, whether or not any of those in this category have been checked up regard ing minimum wages; and i,f there is no inspection of any detailed nature from the department itself, how are informations laid? Must they be laid by the individual to the department and the department take action, or is action taken by the individual directly? MR. CARROLL: Mr .

Chairman, perhaps I should go back to the question from the Member for Elm wood with respect to the reporting of an accident. I think, if I remember cor rectly, there is an obligation on the part of the individual to report an accident . Now if that isn't done , then I suppose it is very difficult for the Workmen's Compensation Board to take over and have anything to do with it. Now I don't know whether he has any recourse after that. I su ppose if he can get evidence that there was an accident he mig ht at some later date be able to substantiate his case , but I'm not sure about that at all.

If you do want further information on it, perhaps you could see me at a later date and I would undertake to get it for you . With respect to the accident in the Village of B�ooklands , I'm afraid I don't know whether the inves tigation has been completed or not. MR. PAULLEY: . and the charge is pending according to the information. MR. CARROLL: The charge -- well then, I would think -- I suppose -- MR. P AULLEY: Is that in the hands of your friend the Attorney-General? MR.

CARROLL: I think you must remember that we don 't know all of the acc ident cases that are being investigated because there are a good many thousands of them, as you know, each year, and we don't have personal knowledge of them all unless they're quite con troversial. I would think that --(Interjection)-- as far as our inspections are concerned, the Employment Standards Division conduct inspections, as I recall, in establishments that em ploy over 83% of all non-agricultural workers.

Something like 223 , OOO employees are involved in those establishments that were inspected last year by the department, and I would think that wherever there is evidence of someone being paid below the minimum rate , well this action is taken on it. Now I'm not sure if there were only three that went to the coi.irts -- presumably there were, if that's all that were reported. In addition to these normal inspections, we do a wage and salary survey each year in which they inspect another 150 , OOO - - at least establish ments in which there are 150 , OOO employees .

So there is a pretty thorough coverage of the province each year by the inspection services of the department, and as I recall it, there is a very, very small percentage at or near the minimum rate of wages. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I would suggest to the Minister.that he have his de partment make spot checks , particularly of young boys and girls who are working during sum mer holidays in some of our commercial establishments. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 3 passed. Item 4 passed. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition)(Ste. Rose): Mr.

Chairman, I don't know if this is the right item to bring this matter up under, but I'm concerned about the licens ing of stationary engineers in the rural parts of the province. Is it proper to ask the Minister a question here on this ? MR. CARROLL: Mr. Chairman, •••• We've passed that item. April 12th, 1962 Page 1755

MR. MOLGAT: Oh, I'm sorry. Will there be another oppo� ty to question .the Minister in this regard, then? ' · MR. CARROLL: I'd be very happy to answer your question privately tomorrow if you care to ask at that time. MR. MOLGAT: Well the question I'm sure the Minister is quite familiar with because I think it arises on a number of cases , Mr. Chairman.

It's where someone has been operating for some time in some of the rural towns in particular, as a stationary' engineer, and has no formal qualification, frequently, not too much schooling, but has all the practical qualifications of doing the work and has been doing the work for some time. Now the situation arises then · where he's called upon to write the exam, but because of the lack of education, and very fre .quently the great length of time since he's been in school -- the matter of going back and study ing and all the difficu lties connected with it -- they simply don't pass the exam.

Now could there not be some change made in these situations where simply a practical exam -- one where the individual would be examined as to his ability to do the work that he is actually doing and to fit in for his special circumstances where he is?

While this might not give him a licence to operate all over the province or even in similar jobs elsewhere, at least a licence to operate there.where he is ; because the situation seems to me frequently arises now where an individual can have taken on a job as a stationary engineer, he's worked there for some years and all of a sudden the situation arises where he's no longer allowed to continue. This is very difficult on the individual concerned; I don't think necessarily leads to better work because he's obvious ly been doing the work for some time. Now could not some consideration be given to this? MR.

CARROLL: From my experience, I find that the department are usually pretty considerate of people who come in maybe lacking some of the qualific ations. I think they have been generous in many cases in extending the time to allow them to qualify . I think we must remember though that the only reason you licence operating engineers is that they are dealing with a highly daugerous product, one which might explode at any time, and I think it's a real hazard to life and limb and property and I think probably there are limits beyond which we can't go in being generous .

There is a licencing board and these people are practical people. They're ones who started at the bottom and have .come up through, and they recognize the daugers and hazards involved in this trade and are probably best qualified to judge whether a man has the necessary experience to carry on in a practical way. But I think, together with the practi cal experience, you must have some theoretical knowledge of the product that you are handling and dealing with and I think that if you have a particular case in mind, we'd certainly be glad to ask the Board to give it some special consideration.

Certainly they are fair-minded people and I think don't turn down anyone without good and suff icient reason. · MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I certainly agree with what the Minister said, that the Board has been, I think, very lenient and generous in the past -::-has allowed people to write exams several times and has done everything it can. But it seems to me that the board is still limited by the fact that they must have a written exam, and this is the final lfmitation .

Now what Pm suggesting is that in these cases where an individual has been actually doing the work for a period of time and has shown that he can do it on a practical basis , that rather than have the written exam, which I think my honourable friend will admit, is very diff icult. Let's take a man who is in his 50 's , who's been doing this type of work for 15 or 20 years; who's been out of school obviously for some 30 or ·35 years at that stage -- probably 35 -- the fact of having to write an exam is a big problem for that individual.

I think all of us remember what a problem is was for ourselves when we were in school, having to do this . Now when you take the condi tion of a man who's been completely away from all this for so long, to have to write an exam, is quite a difficul ty.

Now could it not be settled by having a practical exam which would limit that individual's licence strictly to the work he is doing at the time, rather than the present situation where -- through no fault of the board -- they have to insist eventually on a written exam and the individual may be disqualified from doing a job which he has been doing to the satisfaction of his employers , and presumably that of the department, for some period of years . MR. CARROLL: I think we would be very pleased to look at any case of that kind that you might want to put before us.

I think the board might, indeed, be able to give some special consideration to a situation in which a person finds that he can't properly undergo a written examination. We might be able to do that; but we would like to get particulars of the case Page 1756 April 12th, 1962

(Mr. Carroll, cont'd.) . possibly at a later time. MR. MOLGAT: Could there be consideration then, to having an oral or practical exam rather than a written exam? MR. CARROLL: Certainly there could be consideration for that kind of a problem. Yes. We'd be pleased to consider it -- anytime. MR. CHAIBMAN: Item 4 passed. MR. WRIGHT: Mr . Cha irman, under Apprenticeship Training Division, I'd like to ask the Minister an odd question here.

We see so much today in the paper about young fellows joining the army and it's given a lot of publicity, but I have been asked a question -- and I'm keenly in�erested in apprenticeship training because I have had something to do with it with the railway . I don't think we have enough publicity thrown on this subject. For instance, I noticed in the report here that some officers of the Labour Department met with the National Employ ment Service. Now what I would like to know is just how does a young person in Manitoba find out as to what trade he could indenture himself with in this business of learning a trade.

For instance, the apprenticeship division form here -- it looks as though the onus is thrown on the applicant to find someone who is interested in training an apprentice, and I'm just wondering just how far we in the Province of Manitoba go with this publicizing the fact that certain indus tries are looking for appr entices -- and when I say apprentices I mean indentured apprentices -- those who are assigned under an agreement where they are guaranteed that they will be taught the trade.

This form looks totally inadequate to me, and I would like to see a lot more publicity being given as to how young people in the Province of Manitoba can learn a trade. I think we are very, very far behind the times in that matter . MR. CARROLL: Well I think it's a good point that you raise. I think one should com pare our program with some of the others. We do have the third highest apprenticeship train ing program in the Dominion of Canada -- second only to Ontario and the Province of Alberta.

We have in our estimates this year a supervisor unclassified whose job it will be to try to pro mote interest in our apprenticeship training program . One of the big problems that faces us is to get enough properly qualified trained people to handle the kind of jobs that will be avail able in the future and certainly apprenticeship is going to figure considerably and in a very important way in the training program of young people for employment. MR. WRIGHT: Speaking for the railways, we are looking for apprentices and I was just wondering why the province couldn't take a hand in publicizing this.

Surely this demand could be noted by your department when young people are applying for this business of applying for an application. Are you aware that the railways have been looking for apprentices, and do you poll the various industries to find out what their requirements are or -- I don't think there 's enough light shed on this, people are always wanting to know.

For instance, it says here: "Pr evious employment in this trade" -- well if a young fellow out of school is going in to an in dustry he ha sn't any previous employment in the trade, and this application malrns it look as if you have to have some experience before you can even make application for an apprenticeship. I don't think that's the intent of it. I'm just making an appeal. I think a lot more could be done.

I appreciate what the Minister said that we are not behind when you take the rest of Canada into consideration, but I still think that we could do an awful lot ·more for many of our young people by just giving them simple information about how they can learn a trade and and become indentured. MR. CARROLL: ••• • in suggesting that our program wasn't really too bad in re lation to some of the others, I wasn't attempting to say that we were satisfied with the job that we are doing, because I don't think we are at all.

We are interested in trying to find out what employers need and interested in trying to get good young people into apprenticeship training in order to fill these kind of vacancies. I think one of our real bottlenecks is with the employ ers -- to get enough employers who are willing to embark upon an apprenticeship program. This has been one of the real bottlenecks. We recognize that a big job has to be done here. That's why we have included in these estimates another individual here that we hope will be able to help us in promoting the program.

I think too that the unemployment insurance people -- the National Selective Service or National Employment Service -- have really a major job in the field of placement and I think that we try to co-operate with them, with the Depar tment of Edu cation as well, in getting people directed into these channels. April 12th, 1962 Page 1757

MR. WRIGHT: .••• terrific lack of co-operation and liaison in regard to the ex plosion at the CPR and I hope that this wouldn't be another sample of this failure to get together with the federal authorities on another important matter. MR, CHAffiM AN : 5 passed. MR. DOW: Mr . Chairman, under this particular division, do you happen to know the hockey score? MR. GRAY : Just for enlightenment, in

section 5 we have an item of $220 ,0 00 for Win ter Employment Program; the same amount as last year. The PubUc Accounts shows that up to the year ending the lst of March, 1961, and this year, it has spent only $59 , OOO. 00. Now if these figures are correct I think perhaps either take it out of the estimates or do a little bit more work on this.subject. In other words , you are asking for $220, 000 -- .it was $220, 000 last year in the estimates and they only spent $59, 000.00. And while I'm on my feet, under the same

section 5 I'll direct another question. You have Fire Prevention down there, over $65, OOO -- $63 , OOO . 00. My question is, what are they doing -- and where comes the protec tion? This afterno qn, under the estimates of the Municipal Affa irs the Honourable Minister stated that the assessors -- the provincial assessors -- are only doing work in the rural dis tricts leaving to the Metro and other agencies to do it in the City. I was just wondering where the so-called fire prevention is being investigated and looked after.

Does it include Greater Winnipeg and/or the rural districts; and if it's Greater Winnipeg whether this amount is suffi cient. I think thateveryone hasnoticed a lot of old buildings, industrial buildings in the City which, in my humble opinion, are not too solid and soundly constructed. I think in some cases in case of a fire I think many lives will be lost. In other words, what's their duties and what are they doing? These are my two questions under Item 5. MR. CARROLL: Well, I'm afraid I may not have got both your questions there.

One was though that there's been little money spent up until March of this year on winter work? Is that right? MR. GRAY : . • the public accounts -- it's up to March -- up to December that is - no, the year ending 3lst of March, 1961. So that would have been all right provided - - You have in the estimates another $220, OOO apparently to do more work and better work and more effective work to provide winter employment to the people; but last year's estimates -- a year ago, 1962 estimates , you have .this $220, 000 but you've cinly spent $59 ,0 00. 00. MR.

CARROLL: Well I regret that I don't have the information here at the moment as to what we did spend on winter works for last year but I will undertake to get that information. As far as this year's program is concerned , .under the federal program -- and this is entirely separate from our own provincial program -- under the federal program our potential liability is over half a million dollars.

Now we won't know of course until the year is finished -- until the construction employment season is over and until-the returns are in from the municipalities how much of this work was done and what percentage of those come within our area of respon sibility, but there is a potential here of over half a million dollars that we could be liable for under this year's winter employment program. I will find out though how much we did spend last year.

Now the next one deals with Item No. 5 I take it on Fire Prevention? --(Interjection) Well no winter employment is on item -- oh yes, but Fire Prevention is on Item 6, and --(In terjection)-- Well there seems to be some doubt as to what we're on. MR. REID: • • . the previous question, the Minister said that certain individuals .and corporations don't come under the Manitoba Labour Statutes. Well I think that any individ ual or corporation that's doing business in Manitoba should come under the labour statutes as to safety and inspection and so forth.

We have amendments before the Labour Act now and I don't see why the Minister don't bring in amendments to make these individuals and corpora tions abide by the Manitoba Labour Statutes. After all they're doing business here and the provincial labour department should have access to their premises as to inspection and safety and so forth. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, are we on 4 or 5 now -- 5. Well on this question of conciliation -- this afternoon the Honourable Minister read from an

article in last night's Tribune. I think I remember -- "You must pull up your socks an elder statesman tells Canada Union. " Well there's a paragraph in there that interests me an awful lot and I certainly agree with this, and I wonder if he can say anything about it. I'll quote if I may, Mr. Chairman -- he Page 1758 April 12th, 1962

(Mr. Desjardins , con t' d.) . . . • • • was talking about this conciliation board now -- "As a rule they consist of three men, often with a judge as chairman and with nominees of the union and the company who may be poles apart . As a rule too , Mr . Millard said the company and union nominees walk off in different directions, leaving the chairman, who in too many cases has insufficient technical knowledge, with the casting vote. " Now I think that this is pretty well a known fact that everybody agrees with this and it seems that nothing is dorie about this. Has the Honourable Minister thought about this at all?

Is there any suggestion that this mig ht be changed. I'm talking about the make-up of the diffe rent conciliation boards where there seem to be usually the number of three and one man representing the union and usually seeing no.thing else and then one man representing management and seeing nothing else, and the chairman who is caught between the two others and usually knows less about the situation than any of the three . Now I think that that has been pretty well accepted as something that should be rectified but we don't hear anything about any other ideas or anything.

I think this is a very important subject and I wonder if the Minister would have anything to say. MR . CARROLL: Ye s, we have taken some steps under our Labour Relations Act, Bill No . 102, to try to get some impartiality among the conciliation board members. This is a problem. I think that the Leader of the NDP said that it's impossible to get people without some kind of bias and I agree that that 's true.

But our attempt -- in our Labour Relations Act of thi s year we're saying that no one who has a pecuniary interest in either the trade union or the company, can act on a concilia tion board; or no one who has acted as an agent for either party, or no one who has acted as legal counsel for either party within a 12 -month period before the establishment of the conciliation board, can sit on that board. This is part of the amendments that are being brought in under: our Labolir Relations Act and I think it may at least keep people off the board who have a knowri bias.

In that was we may have a more impartial approach to it . I don't think we'll eliminate it completely. I think we have also gone a little bit fu rther -- we 're establishing a mediator who can act in lieu of a conciliation officer and the conciliation board. Where the parties agree to have a mediator in place of this conciliation board then they would agree to have someone mutually acceptable to act for both of them, and this , of course , woiil.d elimi nate the bias and would eliminate the problem that Mr . Millard is talking about in that article. MR .

DESJARDINS: . . . • the Honourable Minister -- can he tell me if while· they were discussing this bill , were there any thoughts of if possible trying to arrive at having a permanent board for all this conciliation -- people that are independent. As you say nobody is unbiased completely -- but if men of very good character and people really knowing these things -- is there a possi bility that there could be a board -- and it seems to me th?-t there would be an awful lot less politics enter this , and it would be beneficial for all parties con cerned. Has that been taken into consideration at all ? MR .

CARROLL: Well there have been suggestions from time to time that possibly our conciliation offi cers should act as maybe board chairmen or should act in such a way that they can make recommendations af ter they've made every effo rt to bring the parties together. But the difficulty here is that once you have a man on the department who makes a decision unfav orable to the union he is automatic ally tagged as having employer bias ; when he makes a re commendation in favo r of the union the companies say, well he's a union man and we want no part of him.

It' s so easy to attach a bias to a person wbo tries hard to be neutral and I think this is one of the diffi culties there. Anyone who is acting in this particular capacity is bound to be tagge d one way or the other and I'm afraid would be satisfactory to neither. I think the fact that we allow the parties themselves to sele ct , you have the greatest chance of getting people favorable to both the parties in the dispute; and our present setup is that each nominate one member to the conciliation board and together these two nominees select the chairman .

So I think we have the degree of impartiality there as close as we can get to someone who would be acceptable to both. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman , it 's absolutely true what the Minister said, as long as you're dealing with human nature th ere'll be accusa tions. There's no doubt about that; you can't please everybody. But the same could be said about judges then in those things if you want to put it, I think that this is one of the things that I was talking about this aft ernoon, where -- I know that this is something you can't rush into but if there was such a committ ee , April 12th, 1962 Page 1759

(Mr. Desj ardins , cont'd.) • ; • • • as I said, of people that are no longer directly inter ested but people that have served the unions and labour management in the past; people that are recognized as good judgment and honest people, if they suggest that and get the representa tives of the governments of all the provinces, it might be that this could -- this is one thing that might be able to be done in a federal field, and if there's any merit to this at all there's nothing wrong with the Province of Manitob a leading the way on this . Because I know that everybody is trying and this

section of Bill 102 seems to show some indication that the govern ment has, at least, thought about it and trying to rectify this but, it seems to me , that we can go a long way into this and we shouldn't necessa rily wait for the federal government to act in the field of education. I think if the suggestion comes from this province that the different pro vinces should meet together and discuss this . I think, definitely this could be done in this field of labour just as much as it could be in the field of education.

And I certainly would like to see this province, if there's anything worthwhile in what I've said, in this province trying to show the way and lead into this if it's going to help bring labour and management together. Because , I think , that any leadership there is to do is only in that . Well maybe not only, but mostly in that in educating, in leading the labour and management to get together because right now, I think, that this is the trouble -- less in Manitoba, I think, but we don 't have to wait till -- I think my remarks were misunderstand this afternoon .

I didn't accuse anybody of being • • • • but I remember last year I talked about not letting that man or his people representing him come in Manitoba and I was told that, why should we stop him. So if he has something to say here in Canada , it could be dangerous , and I think that if we try to arrive at something here in Canada to get management and labour together or closer together, it certainly would be a step in the right direction. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 5. MR. J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, I think I would lend a word of support to what the Honourable Member for St. Boniface is suggesting .

I know some of the problems that we run into regarding the school situation and I think the same would apply regarding la bour. I think the idea of having a regional permanent chairman appointed so that these people could inform themselves of the legislation and also of the scope under which they're operating. I think this is a very valuable aspect and I would certainly support the idea. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 5 passed. MR. H. P. SHEWMAN (Morris) : Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make an appeal to the Min ister regarding November llth, Remembrance Day.

We know that Manitoba, I guess , leads the Dominion of Canada in observance of Remembrance Day, but I would like to appeal to the Ministe r that it is really a remembrance day, a holiday just the same as a Sabbath Day· or Christmas Day or any of these days that we recognize and ·have kept a good many years and will be keeping them. I think Remembrance Day should be put in that category that class of a day to keep and to observe the fallen men that gave all to keep democracy on the level that it is .

I do know that there are permits issued and, in my opinion, some of these permits are not altogether necessary .• I've talked to some of the employees that are in these establishments these plants that are working on Armistice Day and they would like to see the holiday kept as it should be kept, the meaning that Remembrance Day stands for. And I would like to see some more action in that respect. MR� CARROLL : Mr. Chairman, possi bly I should comment on this .

No one is supposed to work on Remembrance Day without a permit from the Department of Labour, and permits are only issued where the work is considered to be necessary. I think we do try to give them out very, very sparingly. If anyone in the House knows of people who are getting them and who really shouldn't be entitled to them, we'd certainly be very pleased to know about it so that we can take suitable action in future years. Now with respect to the question from the Member for St. Boniface about the full-time chairman or conciliation board chairman.

We do have a system something like this working in connection with our Crown corporations where we keep a panel of names of individuals who can act in the event of a dispute with one of our Crown corporations . We seldom have judges appointed to conciliation boards. Where they are appointed, they are only appointed by the parties. themselves. We as a department never appoint people in the judiciary to the board chairmanship of a conciliation board. I' m afraid I missed the question asked by the Member Page 1760 April 12th, 1962

(Mr. Carroll , cont'd. ) •.••. from Rhineland. MR . FRO ESE: Well, my point had to do with what the Honourable Member for st. Boni face was raising that I feel that we should appoint a regional chairman. Probably most of our strikes are in the city, or our disputes are in the cities, but there might be other areas where you have disputes as well , and I firmly believe that we should appoint regional permanent chair men and that the se people then inform themselves of the legislation under which they operate and the scope that they might have so that they could carry on their functions properly. MR .

DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, • • • . misunderstood the answe r of the Honour able Minister or, if not, he misunderstood me . I'm not suggesting that judges should be named on the se J;ioards. I was just saying that -- you understood that point ? Now I wonder if the Ministe r could answer me in this . Is there any possi bility that your department will try to arrange something like this with othe r provinces and maybe get the federal to review the question of labour and what can be done to make it better than it is now - this conciliation and in other fields.

In othe r words , to try to get, as I said before, manage ment and labour together. Is there a possibility ? Is there anything to that suggestion that the government might try to lead the way in this and get the othe r provinces and the federal govern ment together to try to improve ? MR . CARROLL: I think it is fair to say that a great deal of effort goes into this . Each year we have a conference -- CALL -- the Canadian Assoc iation of Labour Legislators which meets , and all the Departments of Labour are represented at this .

We usually have the feder al department representative s ·as well, and there are always discussio ns on labour relation matte rs , labour board matters as well as the other divisions of the Department of Labour . We are also members of the Illterna tional Associa tion, so these things are under review pretty con stant ly. We are always trying :to find new ways of keeping labour and management happy; get ting them together and mutually settling the ir differences. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chair man, we're aware of that of the se meetings , but my sug gestion would go further than that .

My suggestion. would be that the se people, these boards that you're talking about now , these associa tions that you belong to, would the re be a possibility of getting people representing -- well I shouldn't even say representing labour and management because I think that they should not have any connection, actual connection at the moment with labour or management -- but people that have served management and labour and served it well and are recognized for their honesty and their good judgment .

Elder state smen , in other words , that could go to those meetings , because it's surprising, it seems to me anyway , what you could learn by trying to get both sides of the story. And I think that eventually these people could help an awful lot. I think they'd give you a lot of information that you wouldn't get even by attending all those other meetings and staying the re for weeks and weeks . And this ' is my sug gestion to try to go a little further than we're going now . I know that there's something being done . MR. PETERS: Mr.

Chairman , I think I should give the committee the benefit of my personal experience with concilia tion boards . I've heard the Member from St. Boniface say we should have regional boards and the rest of it . In 1958 , I happened to go to negotiations re presenting the local union that I belonged to . Negotiations were held in Toronto ; negotiations broke down and we came back here and, naturally, we had to go through concilia tion process in the Province of Manit oba because the firm is situate d in Manitob a -- but we had a master agreement .

We went to the conciliation officer here together with the company and the company agreed that we couldn't do anything here because they had no authority to make any settlement here so the conciliation officer gave us permission to go back and negotiate --(Interjec tion)- unde r a master agreement in Onta rio. The Honourable Member from St. Boniface mentions something about judges being chairman of the boards . He said he didn't really say that they should be , but I will say this , Mr.

Chairman , that in all the cases that we have had to go to conciliation , it' s always been in Ontario , it's always been a judge that has been the chairman and it's always been the judge -- I know that when we went to conciliation we were about that far apart and couldn't get any closer -- but the judge was able to bring us closer and closer together -- and I don't think we would find ourselves too, far apart in agreeing that a judge should be a chairman of a concilia tion board. MR . DESJARDINS: Mr . Chairm an, I hate to get up again on this subject and maybe I April 12th, 1962 Page 176 1

(Mr. Desjardins, cont'd. ) • should say like the Honourable Member for Brokenhead yesterday, "I wish I would have said that seeing that he agrees with me" but I didn't say that. l was referring to judges as the Honourable Minister had said that if he had full time people on this conciliation board, they would -- as soon as they'd make a decision favouring unions well then they'd be prejudiced; they'd be marked men, they'd call them union lovers .

I would suggest well that could be done now and the judges, if you have confidence in a man and if he's independent -- you will have some people complaining all the time -- but I think you can de finitely in Canada find or in the Province of Manitoba find some people that could do this work . MR . PETERS: Mr. Chairman, I think the Honourable Member for St. Boniface doesn't realize how conciliation goes on. The judge is not the fellow that makes a ruling. He gets both parties together. One party has their say and then he goes and talks to the other party and eventually he is able to bring them together.

He's not there to say or make a decision In favour of the company or the union. He's there to get them together and that's what he usually does. MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Minister suggested that he was going to obtain some figures for the Honourable Member for Inkster relative to the amount of money spent by this government, I believe, for last year's _.., is not that information contained on page 152 of the annual report, or just what are those figures there?

Now when the Honour able Minister supplies my honourable friend with the information, I wonder if he would break it down to show the number of persons employed In the two categories . That is , I understand that under the winter works program , Ottawa pays half of the wages of all those employed on the projects that are authorized. The province pays half the wages of those who were on so cial allowance or municipal welfare for 30 days or more , and 25% of the wages of those not receiving unemployment insurance benefits . That is, there are two categories.

I wonder if he could break them down and show us the number of persons that were employed last year in those two categori es . The

article that I have before me is from the Department of Industr y and Commerce and is headed "Winter Works ." The last paragraph says that "so far''-- it's dated March 2, 1962 , Mr. Chairman -- "so far over 200 projects valued at $7 million have been recommended by the province and approved by Ottawa. These required the hiring of 3, OOO men and involved 143 , OOO man-days of wor k. " Now , Mr .

Chairman, I know the Hon ourable Member for Inkster brought up this point , but if the figures as given on 152 of the annual report are correct, it looks like we only spent $84 , OOO or nearly $85 , OOO last year , that is the provincial government, and in the estimates before us there is a figure of $220, OOO , the same this year as there was last year. MR . CARROLL : Mr . Chairman, I would like to be able to answer my honourable friend from Inkster beca use the contributions to municipalities are in our annual report .

There was $71 , 260 . 76 contributed to municipalities with a total expenditure last year on winter works of $84, 943 . 18 . The Member for Gladstone would like a. breakdown as to what percentage of contributions was made to people on soc ial allowances; what percentage was paid to those who had exhausted.unemployment insurance benefits. I'll attempt to get that information and give it to him privately if I may..

Now as far as the estimates -- the programs that have been approved, we have no authority over how fast or how slowly these projects will proceed but it is our hope that the bulk of them will be carried out during the winter months and as I pointed out that our potential liability for this year at the present time is over half a million dollars on the federal program alone . I ncidentally, we have changed our cost-sharing arrangement this year to make it a little more attractive to the municipalities. We expect that our contri bution will be larger. MR . SHOEMAKER : Mr.

Chairman, the figure quoted by the Honourable Minister of half a million dollars -- that is this government's contribution is based on the fact that $7 mil lion has been approved by Ottawa. Is that correct ? Well, now Mr. Chairman, there's one other question that I would like to ask and I don •t -- we may be biased but in the booklet that I have before me, "The Record Speaks," and I'm sure all the members opposite know this book let -- it says "for the first time in history unemployment assis tance is available to every ·C anadian. " Myquestion is: is that a fact?

Are farmers, for instance -- can farmers now qualify for unemployment insurance benefits ? MR . CARROLL: Well, yes, I would say that's pretty well true all right, because the Page 1762 April 12th, 1962

(Mr. Carroll, cont' d. ) • • farmer can get employment on a winter works project and if he does in Manitoba, 75% of the cost of that man's wages will be paid either by the federal government or ourselves, unless he's on social allowances or municipal welfare and has been for 30 days -- in that case, 100% of his salary would be paid by the federal and provincial governments . But every person is eligible providing the municipality in the area or the local government district promotes a winter works project and there's no reason why those who need employment can't get work on that project if it's initiated by the local government. MR . CHAffiMAN: 5 (

e) passed. MR . ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St . George) : Mr. Chairman, is 6 passed? MR. CHAIRMAN: • . • • no vote on 6. MR . GUTTORMSON: I'm sorry. I thought that -- I was waiting for 6. What does the program of this department involve? Do your inspectors involve just public buildings or do they consider any private homes? MR . CARROLL: Generally speaking the private homes are inspected by the local fire departments. We do look after public buildings; hospitals; schools and things of that kind.

We do undertake to assist in the training of local fire departments. -This year for the first time we had a fire chief's college that was just completed a month or so ago -- first time in the his tory of the province we have had a special college for fire chiefs or their deputies. And we do help in the Fire Conference and School that takes place once each year , and we work through out the province in education, in prevention, and in investigation of fires where there has been loss of life in public fires and public buildings where there is evidence of arson or where we suspect arson . MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr .

Chairman, every year there is a tremendous loss of life throughout Canada as the result of fires. Many of them are the result of fires in the private home and in the rural areas there are no inspectors going around looking at these different homes and many of these homes are fire traps . Has the Minister ever considered, or the government ever considered a program whereby the inspectors would go around throughout the country, examining homes for fire hazards ? I know people in my area have approached me on this subject, and they feel that this should be something that the government should give consideration to .

MR . CARROLL: Generally the local government does have the responsibility for fire protection within their own district. I think it's fair to say that we have under consideration at the present time a program whereby we might go into some isolated areas where there has been fairly substantial evidence of loss through fire and do this as a public service in some of these areas . Of course we don •t have the kind of staff that would enable us to cove:r the whole of the province. We're extremely limited, but we do assist in training others who can perform this function. MR . DOW: . . on fire prevention.

In the last few years there has been a decided increase in inspection of public buildings particularly in the rural areas , but one of the draw backs of these inspections are that the inspector will make a report on this particular building and the local talk is that it has been inspected and certain recommendations have been made; but the only individual in that particular community that gets a report is the owner of the build ing and I've had the experience that it is difficult to get from the department the inspect or's re port particularly on public buildings.

Only just recently I asked the fire department -- preven tion department of this government for a complete report of a number of buildings and I was informed that this was not a usual procedure to give this information, but I did get it. And I am suggesting Sir, to you, that it would be much better if the inspector would leave a report with the municipal officials, because they're just as desirous of seeing buildings properly pro tected as the fire prevention bureau, and possibly might get some action much quicker.

I have in mind one building in particular that was inspected three years ago and it was only just a month ago that we got the report from the department stating what the inspector said had to be done and then the local officials made him do it. I think we could expedite it and possibly save property and possibly save lives if the inspector, when he made the report, would issue a re port to the municipal officials which, up to the present time, we've had difficulty getting. MR . CARROLL : It's my understanding that the reports are made at the time of the in spection.

Ce rtainly it doesn •t do much good to make an inspection report several months later April 12th, 1962 Page 1763

(Mr. Carroll, cont'd.) • • and then probably not report to those who are most inter:- ested in it. But I will certainly investigate and see whether this is the case. This is certainly my understanding of it, that the report is left with the authorities at the time the inspection is made, ordering them to make certain changes if changes are required, eliminate hazards where they exist. MR . DOW: A further thing', Mr. Chairman, along the same lines. This has come up recently -- is a uniform type of by-law for fire protection.

It seems that there isn't in exis tence a uniform type of by-law and each local community has their own. I'm wondering if the department wouldn't give consideration under this particular branch that if they couldn't set up a uniform type of by-law that could be passed in various communities that would be accept able to the province as a whole? MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, is it the policy of the government to spend exactly the amount on fire protection in accordance with the receipts received? Is that the policy of the government? Under item (

e) of 6, it lists $66 ,0 70 as the Fires Prevention Fund receipts. That money is all collected, is it not, from the insurance companies? -- and that would be number 1 and number 2. If they collect twice as much next year, is it the policy of the govern ment to expend it all? MR . CARROLL: Dealing first of all with the Member for Turtle Mountain, I believe I have seen something on a standard by-law, and I'm not sure of that.

But I think there has been some ·circulation among the municipalities of suggestions for by-laws which would cover the kind of situations that might arise as a result of a fire in a community, I think t_hat we do limit our expenditures to the estimates that are voted here. We have during the past year raised our levy from the insurance industry. We would hope that that will cover our expendi tures for this year. We would hope that maybe their insurance sales would improve another year; maybe we could then give consideration to a reduction.

The demands for the services of the department continue to grow and I think, while there is some objection at the time of the levy from the insurance people, I think they do appreciate the service of the Fire Commis sioner's Office as well, and I believe they feel it's money well spent. MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, the figure as shown in (e), does that represent the exact amount received from the insurance companies? Is that the exact amount? MR . CARROLL: I would think that that would be our estimate of what we hope to re ceive from the industry. MR . MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, the standardization of hose sizes and of equipment is essential for the use of equipment between various localities. Is this progressing now? Is the government doing anything about this? MR . CARROLL: Well I believe for some time now· the MUnicipal Department has not been approving any installations of fire equipment that does not .. conform to a standard which hits been accepted by the province, which is six threads.to the inch.

We certainly haven't done anything yet about trying to change those that are already in existence, although I know that it has been discussed from time· to time and I think there is some advantage to having that done. MR . MOLGAT: Is there no program of assistance to help those areas that already have equipment that doesn't fit the standard 2-1/ 2 inch hose and six threads to the inch? MR . CARROLL: By assistance, what do you mean? MR . MOLGAT: To converttheir equipment to the standard. MR . CARROLL: We have no program at the present time of assistance to convert to the standard coupling, no. MR. MOLGAT: Well Mr.

Chairman, I think this would be a very useful program and I think under our Civil Defence Department that possibly some work could be done in this regard, because the civil defence is assisting certain areas in the development of fire equipment, and if we could use those services to standardize I think it would be very helpful in the matter of fire prevention and the use of alternate equipment through the province . The other point I wanted to ask the Minister about was the question of fireworks. This is one that comes up every year. Some of the municipalities have been talking about regula tions in this regard.

Does the province have any plan to control fireworks, because this is one of the causes of fires and it's constantly coming up at the municipal level. Does the province plan anything? Page 1764 April 12th, 1962

MR. CARROLL: Maybe you'd like to answer that -- MR. LYON: There is a provision in the Municipal Act, Mr. Chairman, giving certain controls over municipaliti es with respect to firewor ks . From time to time there have been sug gestions that the province should exert some control but I don't believe I've seen any arguments that would suggest that that control would be any bett.er than the municipal type of control that there is . MR. MOLGAT : So the province has no plan in this regard? MR. CARROLL: No . MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister said a moment ago that they did have a program where they held clinics with members of the ir department assisting fire chiefs in the diffe rent areas . What I was trying to get at was what about the areas in the small communities where there are no fire chiefs and inspectors for fire at all? There are hundreds of communi ties in the proVince who have no organized fighting equipment or trained fire personnel and this is the area I'm referring to .

Has the government ever considered sending fire inspectors a round to the homes in these areas where the local communities have no fire commiss ioner or fire inspectors of th eir own? MR. CARROLL : I think we're always prepared to lend assi stance to municipalit ies . I don't know that we would go so far as to conduct house to house inspection s. We will inspect the public buildings within these areas and we will lend our ass istance to train people within the municipality , within the local government district, to implement their own program .

We can help them that way but it's just an imposs ibili ty for us to try to attempt to perform the services of a fire department throughout the areas in Manitoba which don't have this service at the pres ent time . MR. CHAIRMAN: Department 6, Agriculture and Conservation , Resol ution 26 , Item 1, Administrati on. HON. GEO. HUTTON: (Minister of Agriculture and Conse rvation) (Rockwood-Iberville) : Mr.

Chairman, it's been a long long time -- and you know I was very much afraid this af ter noon -- I was very much afraid this afte rnoon that I was going to have to for ego the pleasure of making a statement beca use I was suddenly taken with a toothache and I had to resort to the dentist's offi ce to get it remedied. I felt very badly contemplating that I'd have to introduce my estimate s and not get a chance to inform the members opposite how wonderf ul a program in agriculture that this government is carrying out .

I would like to just go back over the highlights of the past year and then indicate what we think will be the highlights in 1962-63 . I think it's very appropriate that I refer to the con ference that was held in Winnipeg on April 24th and 25th of 1961 to consider the need for and the advisability of establishing an economic agricultural research council for Canada. The out come of that conf erence was most gratifying.

We were considering a matter of great importance and of great magnitude -- a national approach to some of the problems that have been plaguing us for decades, indeed generations , and anyone who was a realist at all would recognize the sac rifi ce , the self-interest that had to be overcome in bringing a people with regional interests to gether in a co-operative effo rt of this kind. There is no use denying that there were diffe rences of opinion but I am happy to report to the Legislature of Manitoba that our negotiations have been progressing rather well .

As you may know, there was a continuing committe e set up which re presented the principals at the confe rence and this continuing committee has been working on ways and means of establishing such an organiza tion . At the present time there is widespread support amongst the provinces , the federal government, business and farm organizati ons, and I am asking the legi slature to approve a sum of $7 , 500 to be contributed towards the establish ment of this organization ..

A similar amount will be forthcoming from other provinces and we feel that negotiations are suffi ciently advanced and in anticipation of the succes sful establish ment of this organization we are voting these monies to carry on its work in its initial year . We had an innovation in ·Manitoba. It was the first of its kind anywhere in Canada . It has been tried in the United States before but Manitoba was fortunate in being able to lead the way in us ing television for extension work in agriculture. The CBC very kindly co-operated with the department.

The University extended a great deal of assistance -- indeed it would have been impossible to carry out the program without their co-operation. The weekly newspapers, farm organizations all did a tremendous job in advertising this week of television courses and as a April 12th, 1962 Page 1765

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd) .•••• . result it was a very successful experiment. We had a feeling"in the department that we should try new methods and new media of communication, beca use if the farmer needs to keep up to date we need to keep up to date, and this experiment, as I said, was extremely successful. It appears from surveys that were taken, and they appear to be fairly accurate, that 69% of the rural people who had television sets watched one or more of the telecasts. In sixty-three percent of the farm households having television sets the farm operators themselves watched one or more of programs .

It is estimated that 50% of all farm homes in Manitoba, whether or not they had a television set viewed some of the telecasts. I think you can measure the success of this approach to extension by the response that we re ceived from the kits -- the TV kits that were prepared to complement these progr ams . Over 9, OOO requests for TV kits indicated, I think, the widespread acceptance -- indeed enthusiastic i.llterest in this approach to extension .

We had a tough year, and one of the highlights of that year, to me , was the successfui manner in which we were able to obviate what might have been some very costly losses -- not only to the farmers , but to the total economy of the province. I am convinced that had it not been for the united effort of farmers , municipal people, farm organizations , provincial and federal governments that the impact, for instance , on the cattle industry would have been a great deal worse than what actually occurred -- and goodness knows it was bad enough.

I say that this is a matter which affects not only the farmers ; and I say that with conviction because our cattle industry in the Province of Manitoba is the result of years of building and if _we suffer drastic reduction in cattle numbers it takes years to g-et them back. These losses are reflected not only to the farmers but in the packing industry and in the jobs for the men who keep the wheels of that industry going. So the moneys that were expended were well justified and they were substantial.

They approached $800 , OOO for the provision of hay transportation and the pro vis ion of water, where we could supply it by irrig ation pumps and pipes. We filled some 373 dugouts ; we moved 165, OOO tons of hay; we had some close to 8, OOO tons of hay consigned to municipal fodder banks . It is calculated that about 13% of the farmers in Manitoba have bene fitted directly from these programs -- some over 6, OOO farmers.

Then of course , we have had other programs in the spring of the year to deal with the shortag-e of oats and we don 't know yet what that is going to cost; but we feel that it is in the interests of the total community to expend these monies. It is not just assistance to the farmer. In the past year we carried on our programs ; farm business groups continued to increase 582 members; we intend to organize 6 additional units this coming year; the bursary program at the University moved ahead. This current year there were 70 awards made to degree stu dents and 47 to the diploma students.

Crop ins urance -- well I think this past year proved that cr op insurance is a must, and even though we are not in a· posi tion to expand the program be yond the areas that are presently covered, we did anticipate that the.re could be a greater re sponse to the program within those areas -- additional monies are provided. And then, of co urse, you will realize that when the estimates were set up we were hoping that we would get an announcement from Ottawa that would enable us to expand the program.

But aside from that, after having operated a crop insurance program in Manitoba on a test area basis for two years , we can come to no other conclusion than that this is a program that is badly needed in Western Canada; that it has a great many advantag-es over the blanket approach of the PFAA . We had farmers in Manitoba who collected as much as $5, OOO under the crop insurance program . Now this is real help in a year of drastic crop losse s. There's just no comparison between this program and PFAA . So we are hoping and trusting that we will be able to expand this program to the entire province in short order.

Another highlight, I think, of last year was the opening of a new crop research building at the University. These are wonderful facilities; if you haven't visited them you should do so. The people at the University who are working with these facilities are worthy of the tools that we are giving them . Work continued on the Animal Saience building and it should be ready for use in this coming year, and it will house not only the Animal Science Faculty, it will also pro vide facilities for the Faculty of Entomology.

This past year saw the new gardener sales facil ities constructed and completed and officially opened. If you haven't visited that plant you should take an opportunity to drive out King Edward Street some day and take a little time and visit the se facilities and see what has.been provided for the vegetable growers in this province . Page 1766 April 12th, 1962

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd) ••.• We still have our strawberry patch -- and I am sure the Honourable Member of La Verendrye will be interested in this -- due to the lateness of organization of the group last year they decided to confine their efforts to a small plot of virus-free plants. I am told that the experts who visited Hadashville passed the opinion -- and an educated opinion- that this was the best plot of strawberries in Manitoba last year .

They had the advantage of irrig ation ; they have the advantage of good soil particularly adapte d to this culture in that area; and I believe they are planning on setting out 10 acres this year . In addition they are going to set out crabapples, several hundred I understand , and ras pberries·.

I am told that there is every indication that this project is going to move ahead; that it isn't only going to benefit the people directly concerned in that area; but I am told that it is going to become a very import ant demonstration plot; that there is widespread interest in what is going on out there and it may well serve, as we hope it will , to encourage the expansion of this industry in the Province of Manitoba. Farm Cr edit -- Well that moved ahead too.

A very interesting thing is happening in farm credit -,-the thing that makes me very happy -- I get a great deal of satisfaction out of th at '-- it appears that Manitoba through its program of offering agricultural credit at a 4% in terest rate to young farmers is cultivating the young farmer. Some 55 percent of our business in the past year has been with the young farmer group and I think this is a very encouraging thing and I think that all of us as members are glad to see our funds going to these young men in encouraging them to establish themselves in the greate st vocation in the world.

Somebody said second to lawyers . · We have had a great deal of satisfaction from the acceptance of our new weed control program with which you are familiar . This year we are providing for another new weed con trol unit to be established and we are bolstering our staff with the addition of a Weed Control Specialist . This program has crea ted a renewed interest in the control of weeds amongst farm ers and municipal people, and there is an unprece dented application to the eradication of noxious weeds in the Province of Manitoba due to thi s program .

I think I should mention that thi s year we are changing our grasshopper control program slightly in order to encourage the livesto.ck people to use malathion and sevin which are non-residue sprays. We are increas ing the limit of assistance from $30 to $60 per quarter in respect of these two insecticides. The biggest part of our program this year is one that we dealt with at some length in the Chamber; and that is our program in water control and conservati on.

One of the most im portant aspects of that program from the standpoint of our current estima tes is the provision to carry out the study of the Pembina River . It is going to be a very thorough type of study - not jus t confining itself to , for instance , the interests of the farmers but to the gen,eral im pact of the development upon the entire economy adjacent to the Pembina River and that can be supplied from the Pembina River. I might just as well mention it beca use I have no doubt that you've noticed that there is a change in the emphasis in respect of some of the votes.

It's just beeh a question of setting priority in the department and spending the money where we think it is going to do the most good and where the urgency of a situation requires that some thing be done right away . I introduced a bill to the House providing for the licencing of well drillers and providing for the undertaking of ground water surveys in the province . I'm not going to enlarge on that but this is , I consid er, an extremely important step forward in our water conservation program .

Beca use as I said the other day , your ground wate r supplies are just as important as your surface water supplies and there's no reason in the world to take them for granted any more than you woul d your surface wate r supply. The experience has been in countrie s where there has been a.Il intensive use and development of ground water supplies that too late they discover that they have taken these supplies for granted. So we hope to get under way something that will prove to be of great value to the province as the years go by. You mig ht be interested to know that 4-H club work went along as strongly as ever.

There were 9,3 96 members of 4-H in Manitoba belonging to 648 clubs. There were 19 4-H rallies and the total attendance was 12 , 175. But here is something that should make the poli ticians quake. There were 2, 060 members who participated in public speaking -- so the word may be , "move over, we're coming. " Two thousand and sixty of these young people participated in public speaking and, I think, that's just one of the most tremendous aspects of the 4-H pro gram . I have occas ion as many of you must have occa sion to go to these 4-H meetings and April 12th, 1962 Page 1767

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd) ••.• programs and you see some youngster get up there who maybe a year or two before that would need to be hog-tied to get them on the stage and yet they'll stand up there with a little bit of training and carry off the honours of the evening with the poise and the self-possession that they develop.

Regardless of all the programs that we develop, I think that the contribution that the department makes to the welfare of the province through working wi th the young people in the 4-H programs is one that no man can really measure , because what value do you place on the human personality, on the human being?· Now I'm going to stop right here . --(Interjection)-- Yes, but before I do, I want to once again pay tribute to the greatest man in agriculture in Manitoba today, and has been for some time -- my Deputy Dr. Bell.

I hope he will take this in the way I intend it that "he's the grand old man of agriculture in Manitoba. " And he's recognized not only in this province but from the Atlantic to the Pacific in that role. It's a great privilege to work with him. He is an inspira tion to me and to the staff; and here's where I have to pay tribute to my st aff all the way down the line because in a crisis such as we had in Manitoba this past year, we couldn't have begun to do the job if it hadn't been for men and women who were dedicated and who were working for an ideal , and an idea, rather than for a salary.

My thanks go to everyone of them wherever they are in the province. MR. STAN ROBERTS (La Verendcye) :Mr . Chairman, Iwo Uld liketo add to the words cifthe- . Minister in congratulating that "grand old man of Agriculture", Dr. Jim Bell, forthework he has done this year and for the many, many years lie hii.s done it ·in the. past. I've known Dr. Beil since I was old enough to talk and walk . I've always considered him a very close friend and I think that there is no one, as the Minister has said, who has contributed more to agriculture in Mani toba than Dr. Bell has.

I would like to add my congratulations also to the membe rs of the De partment of Agriculture, the staff, civil service, the workers outof the Legislative Building here, the Norquay Building and throughout Manitoba. The Minister was very fortunate, I think, to have fallen heir to as many good men as he did. They are a young group; they are an enthus iastic group. I hope that, as the Minister becomes more enlightened in his policies, they will be able to do the job that they should be doing for the farmers of Manitoba.

I'd like to add my congratulations too, to the work that has been done in the field of the 4-H clubs this year because this is one field in which work should never end; which should grow and grow and grow. This is the field where we can really do the most for the rural people of Manitoba -- and that is through the 4-H club work. The Minister has painted quite a rosy picture of agriculture in the Province of Manitoba in the year which they have just completed. We must of course look at the results of the year in terms of dollars in the farmers' pockets in Manitoba.

In the last ten years , the average net income of the farmers of Manitoba, the average over the last ten years is $11 5, 800, 000; and the net income for the year 1961 to those farmers in Manitoba has been $53, 300, ooo-- less than one-half of the average net income over the past ten years and the lowest it has been in any time in the past eleven years. And this isn 'tdue to a decrease in gross income because in the last ten years the average gross income for the Province of Manitoba, to the farmers of Mani toba, has averaged $220 ,4 00 ,0 00;

whereas the gross income to the farmers of Manitoba this year has been $233 ,5 64, 000 , this past year 196 1. In other words, the gross income in 1961 was 5% higher than the average of the previous ten years, but the net income was 50% lower that it was -- more than 50% than it was in the ten-year average before that. And so while things can be painted rosy, there is this very hard cold fact that must be faced that the farmers of Manitoba just did not make money in 1961 despite the fact they sold more produce than they had sold for many years.

There are many reasons for this but, of course , the main reason is a combination of the cost-price squeeze that the farmers are in. We have discussed in the last few days the role of the federal government in this field, and it is a big role. But there's also the role of the provincial goverrure nt. In order to look at the role of the provincial government in its proper perspective, I think we should look at the field in which they operate -- and they are listed, of course in our estimates for the Depa rtment of Agriculture and Conservation.

There's no place in here where in actual fact the price that the farmer receives for his product can be increased except through marketing possibilities. But the role of the provincial government it is fairly well established is not one of placing floor prices . :(3ut there is a definite role of Page 1768 April 12th, 1962

(Mr. Roberts, cont'd) •••.•.•. helping the farmer market his products. And there is this huge role which the Minister, I'm sure, appreciates and has accepted, this huge role of helping the farmer to help himself. Of helping him in many ways, helping him to be more efficient; helping him to keep his costs as low as possible;. helping him to produce as much as he can at the lowest possible cost per unit. In order to do the things that the Department of Agriculture must do to improve the lot of the average Manitoba farmer or the Manitoba farmers as a whole, the Department of Agri culture must have a vision.

This is one of those unfortunate circumstances that a beautiful word has been ruined. The word "vision" is probably one of the finest words in the English language but it has lost its proper sense. It's lost all its allure and charm and all the good things that were once associated with it. Perhaps I should call it an "enlightened view". If the Department of Agriculture has an enlightened view .that the help that can be given to the farmers by the Government of Manitoba has an enlightened approach, then, I think, that things can be made easier for the farmer.

This can be said , of course, in reference to various other de partments of this government. We've referred to them in the Department of Education where with this proper enlightened view we could have better education.with less expenditure. We referred to them in the Attorney-General 's Department where if he was to use -- I hate to use the word "vision", we'll call it enlightened view again , and enter into a program of probation ary services, we could have cleaner reform; we could have a better penal system; we could have better. correctional institutes with less cost.

We have mentioned the same thing in the Department of Forestry, the Department of Mines and Natural Resources and particularly in Forestry where we could save money, and, at the same time , save millions and millions of dollars of our forests if this vi_ew, this vision, this enlightened view was there. But to get back to the Department of Agriculture, I think that we can gain much by look ing to see what other people are doing. Perhaps we have become complacent.

Perhaps we are sometimes doing things as a government -- perhaps we are sometimes doing things as farmers -- out of habit, because they have been programs ·i n the past , because we became accustomed to doing them in a certain way. We have become over the years again to look at ourselves in Canada as being the New World with a bright new future, a world where everyone had an oppor tunity --success was there -- employment was full, unemployment was practically nil.

But I think it's time to take another look at the situation and see where we really do stand, for we are in danger in Canada -- and Manitoba is about as typical a province in Canada as you can find -- of looking to another part of the world as the New World -- another part of the world which is more ale rt, more aggressive , more wide-awake than we are. The nations which have entered into the European Common Market have shown far more vision than this country has shown.

The nations which have through economic planning , through leadership, through gov ernment guidance -- the nations of the European Common Market -- the economic community, are showing guidance to their people, giving leadership and assistance to their agricultural people, they're showing this vision , this enlightened view between the nations, between each other , between trading countries -- something that we have lost sight of. We can't change that here for Manitoba but we can start it. The Department of Agriculture of the Government of Manitoba can be the beginning of an elightened view in Canada.

We have a Minister in the Qepartment of Agriculture in Manitoba who is capable of this. He had one good idea last year -- a research council -- which, as I said the other night, was a miscarriage, but there's still. hope for it apparently because he's asking for $7, 500 from this legislature towards the establishment of it. He didn't mention an amount being contributed by the Government of Canada, if any. Surely the provinces themselves aren't expected to set up this research council.

Surely there must be assistance from the fed eral government towards this, because the research council itself is not going to study strictly provincial problems. It will be studying federal problems to a much greater extent I am sure; so I hope that the federal government will a.ccept some of this responsibility. But it's a step forward -- a very slow first step forward -- because it's taken a year for even this step to take place since we had our last meeting.

I think that through a research council set up bythe govern ments of the provinces of Canada and the Dominion itself, much good could come , because to this kind of a council you can attract the best economic brains and the best agricultural people I am sure, in the nation. I wish it much success and I wish the Minister much success because April 12th, 1962 Page 1769

(Mr. Roberts, cont'd) •••..•• I know he has his heart in this prog ram , but I hope that he is successful in selling this idea to the other provinces , because it is a good idea and it's a big project. But it must move -- we can't wait and wait and wait for these things to happen. These things must move. We are being by-passed. Our nation is standing still watching other count ri es learn to deal with each other; other countries learn to trade with each other; other count ries growing and expanding with a productivity increase each year three, four, five times as great as ours .

There surely is hope that this Research Council will be a step forward, but there's much more selling to be done and it can only be done if each one of us here attempts to sell it and if each one of us here puts pressure on our friends who are in responsible posi tions and ask them to try and sell it too.

As I was saying, within the Province of Manitoba, the Department of Agriculture here , if it had the enlightened view which I would like to see it have, it would go right through the whole Department of Agriculture and find within that Department of Agriculture and the program which it is carrying out within Manitoba, many programs which are now out of date , and would find other programs which it should go into with greater enthusiasm .

Because just to do things by habit and just to vote certain appropriations because they're expected and because we did them last year and because we did them the year before , will not solve the problems of the farmers of Manitoba. This is a new era. There are new problems and there are new products we should be raising in Manitoba. -- (Interjection) -- Tobacco -- we'll get to that one. Starting through the estimates, I see the very first item , which is a specific item -- the Livestock Branch.

I think a great part of the future of Manitoba agriculture lies in its produc. tion ofli vestock; and yet we in Manitoba see thousands upon thousands of head of cattle go through our province every year , from the west going east or from the west going south, and we see our own cattle going east and going south to be fed, that they should be fed right here in Manitoba. There is much much work that should be done in the field of livestock and livestock extension.

We have a good staff in the Livestock Branch; we have some good people; people who have alert minds; young men who are willing to work, willing to go out on any program that is sound and feasible . And yet -- and I say this because I'm a purebred breeder myself of livestock -- yet the Livestock Branch staff spend large portions. of their time -- I haven't made any survey as to what percentage -- but large portions of their time , working with purebred breeders of the province , and your main production of livestock are with your commercial people .

The people who haven't got the training, the background, the experience , who need extension advice , who need guidance from this Livestock Branch, and yet in my opinion the Livestock Branch spends more time than it needs to with the purebred associa tions and the purebred breeders of this province . I think the Minister is perfectly aware of the fact that members of the Livestock Branch act as secretaries and nursemaids to the purebred cattle associl!tions, pure bred swine associa tions, and sheep associations within the province , and this takes up a great deal of their time .

I think the Minister is also aware that in the last few years a performance testing program for beef cattle has been introduced into Canada, has been pushed by the Government of Canada, and has been undertaken quite strongly by provinces like Ontario and Alberta; yet we in Manitoba have only tested just a handful of cattle . I think the Minister is aware that each year more and more of our cattle , of our steers and calves in Manitoba, are being sired artificially -- being si red artificially by bulls which have not been tested.

We are in an era now, and have been for some time, where a bull located somewhere in Canada or United States is quite likely to sire many thousands of the calves born in Manitoba -- one single animal. And yet we in Manitoba watch this happen without knowing whether that particular bull which has been used on thousands of our cows in Manitoba is capable of producing a good type animal. We have not performance tested that bull; we have not performance tested him as to his own gaining ability, as to his parents' gaining abilities and to the gaining abilities of the calves which he might sire . This is serious .

Once again I say we need only to look to the countries we call the Old World -- the old-fashioned world -- the countries of Europe , and see how enlightened their view is on these things, because they wouldn't allow, in any of these nations, a bull to sire thousands of calves if he hadn't been tested to the hilt. This is the type of program that we could be introducing into Manitoba -- introducing at a low cost, and with great, great benefit to those who will use the services of it. Page 1770 April 12th, 1962

{Mr. Roberts, cont'd) ••• It's interesting in the same field -- and I think the Minister has noticed thi s too , that in the recend editions of the magazine or the newspaper called "The Manitoba Co-Operator" an agricultural reporter has interviewed I think virtually all of the agricultural representative s in Manitoba -- one each week. He has written a nwnber of stories about these agricultural representative s and with each one goes some photographs taken of .the agricultural representa tive at work. And what is the agricultural representative doing when we see him at work ?

He is visiting the most alert , wide-awake, best farmer in the community . Now I know many of these agricultural representati ves perso nally, many of them are classmates of mine and they're doing a good job. But what is it they are doing when a typical photograph of their work is taken? They are visiting some of the better farmers in their commu nity -- farmers who really don't require their assistance .

Because the agricultural representati ves can be working with those who are not being too succes sful; can be working with those who have not·got purebred herc:�s and already know the ropes; can be working with those who are not already feeding a thousand head of cattle or five hundred or a hundred head of cattle in an efficient feed lot, but can be working with those who are struggling along trying to learn the way, trying to learn the modern methods of feeding, the modern methods of buying and of marketing.

This is what the agricul tural representative can be doing and should be doing and in many cases is doing -- but not in all cases . A whole outlook could be taken on these fields, an outlook of trying to provide at the lowest possible . cost the greatest amount of assistance to the greatest number of farmers pos sible .

And if this kind of assistance is given to the farmers who make up the bulk of our farms , to the farmers who are operatiµg on small family units , if this kind of assistance can be given the way it should be given, I feel that the Province of Manitoba could be responsible for in creas ing the net income of the farmers of Manitoba. Because as I said in 19 61, the net income of the farmers of Manitoba was less than half of what it has been on the average of the 10 pre vious years. And surely this must be a rather sho.cking figure to the Minister in view oLthe statements he has just made. · MR . HUTTON: Mr .

Chairm an, I wonder if the honourable member will permit a ques tion. I'd like to know if he knows what that figure net income is that he's referring to ? MR . ROBERTS: It's released by the Dominion Bureau of Stati stic s; it's based on the sa me figure of net income as that which is based on each of the previous 10 years and so the base is no different in anyone of the 11 years . Correct? -- {Interje ction) -- You don't know either so don't .•• , • (Interjection) -- No you don •t. MR. HUTTON: It's obvious that you don't. , MR.

ROBERTS: I am sure that I have studie d more economics than the Honourable Min ister of Agriculture has . MR. KEITH ALEXANDER (Roblin): Studying doesn't ...••. knowledge. MR . ROBERTS: The field of agriculture and horticultural society which is another spe ci fic mentioned in the estimates of the Honourable Minister of Agricultur e where a certain amount is voted to the Agriculture and Horticultur al Societies throughout the Province of Mani toba.

I suggest that this is once again a field where by habit we are voting a great deal of money and not necessarily because it is an economic and well-planned vote of money. I skipped over one in the Livestock Branch here that I should have mentioned -- The Veterinary Laboratory at the University of Manitoba -- Animal Pathologist and Veterinary Laboratory. I hope that the Minister will describe to us this vote of almost $50, OOO to this Laboratory.

We have at the Vet Lab, a nwnber of outstanding veterinaria ns , keen, anxious and able to do experimental work for the province and yet their hands are tied when it comes to doing projects -- when it comes to undertaking programs. We have several problems of a serious nature affecting the net in come of the farmers of Manitoba. We have a disease of baby pigs which is one of those mystica l things that no veterinarian has put a finger on yet and we should be studying.

We have a condi tion of cattle known as dwarfism which is affecting the cattle of the North American continent , and yet we in Manitoba have our veterinarians that work for us out there , but none of them under taking a project such as this which they could be studying. There are many other fields , and the field of poultry in particular , where great losses are suffered each year and yet no a great deal is being done. Not because they don't want to do it; because they're not being guided by this April 12th, 1962 Page 17 71

(Mr. Roberts , cont'd) •••••• department. we have other fields. I mentioned them the other day. I mentioned in the Throne Speech Debate the field of wild oat control where the Depart ment of Agriculture, the Government of Manitoba, could be leading the way in attempting to knock off one of the most serious, most expensive, most costly bugbears to the farmers of Man itoba.

I suggest that this is one field in which we should be using a little bit of this enlightened view , because this is one field where we could be doing a great deal and where perhaps a.small amount of money well spent would be of great, great value to the farmers of Manitoba. I will leave the field of drainage and water conservation until we get to that item because it will be a large item in itself. But I do think that this is, once again, one of the really im portant fields in which the Government of Manitoba could be moving forward very rapidly.

The Honourable Minister referred to a number of things when he was speaking. I would like to congratualte him I think for his innovation of the television extension work. I think it is a good program. It appears to be a means of approaching a great number of people from one central source at perhaps not too great an expense. I hope that a ireat deal more will be done in this field. It's a great pos sibility.

It isn't as good -- or at least I don't think it is as good - as being personally at a short course , or personally at a meeting where an extension specialist or a soil specialist or a crop specialist or a livestock specialist is present and can answer your questions , but it does have the advantage of being able to reach a great number of people at one time . The Minister referred to the drought year. He referred to the effect of the drought and how we've been saved. I don't think he needs to be told again that the effect of the drought has not yet been fully felt.

There is much much to be worried about yet; and there is much much more work to be done. The Minister referred to farm business groups , suggesting that this was a program of the Department of Agriculture, of his department. I would like to hear more about this because as far as I know it has been conducted out of the university and by commer cial organizations. How many farmers and how many areas will be involved in the coming year in a farm business study?

I think there's a great future here where the Department of Agri culture could be of great ass istance to the farmers of Manitoba beca use here is once again a field where we can help the farmer cut his cost., can make him more efficient and give him assistance in producing at the lowest possible cost. The Minister referred to the strawberry patch and I think he was a little bit more de fensive about it than he needed to have been really. There's a few rasberries in with the straw berries. The strawberry patch could I think develop into a fair size project .

I think the people of Hadashville would be astounded to know how much time the Minister spent referring to their strawberry patch, because the people of Hadashville refer to it as exactly that and many back yard gardeners have as large a strawberry patch as the one which exists at Hadashville. But it has got a future and I agree with the Minister, this· kind of cr9p has got a future in Manitoba. I am sorry that the Minister didn't refer to tobacco too 'because tobacco has got a future in Manitoba.

The people of Hadashville and the people of other areas in Manitoba of a similar nature are astounded that the Department of Agriculture of the Government of Manitoba refuses to take the possibility of growing tobacco more seriously -- that each year they show less and less interest in the tobacco possibilities for Manitoba. Each year they put less and less effort into seeing whether or not we actually can grow tobacco; and each Minister assures us that he has the greatest ambition to find new crops for the people of Manitoba.

Here's a great possi bility and one that we are passing by and one that we shouldn't pass by. I'd like only to refer to one other field -- a field in which I do think that -- and I've said this each year -- oh I haven't mentioned two other things here -- crop insurance and agriculture cr edit, both in the field of the provincial department, which I'd like to mention first. Crop in surance in Manitoba appears to be at a standstill. There doesn't appear to be any moving-for ward and the Minister assures us that just as soon as he gets some more assistance from Ottawa he will move forward with it.

I think he tried to tell us the other night he was going to get some more assistance from Ottawa. I think he tried to tell us that it was a Conservative plank -- that the Conservative Government at Ott awa was interested in underwriting the federal crop insurance plan. This of course is nonsense because if it is their plank they haven't come out with it yet. They haven't even mentioned it in the last three years . When we asked for it three years ago in the House of Commons and here , then we received no answer whatsoever Page 1772 April 12th, 1962

(Mr. Roberts , cont' d) ••• .••. from the Minister of Agriculture at Ottawa. Three years ago the members of this House , of the Opposition, insisted that the Government of Manitoba should have a decent recommendation -- a decent program, including federal underwriting, of the crop insurance plan before we went into it. The Minister of Agriculture said this sort of thing wasn't neces sary -- we'd go ahead and test the plan anyway. Time goes on and still we can get no word from Ottawa.

In fact this is the first year that this Minister of Manitoba has really admitted that he was trying to get from Ottawa federal underwriting of the plan, and then he goes on and says that he is the one who was in favour of having federal underwriting of it all the time and that the Federal Conservative Party were the people who intended to do it at the first possible opportunity. Well if they have this intention, or ever had this inten tion, it's about time it showed up .

The Minister makes comparison between the Manitoba Crop Insurance Plan and PFA , and I agree that the crop insurance plan is a better plan than the Prairie Farm Assi stance plan . But there's also the fact that the Federal Government at Ottawa spends less money on the crop insurance plan than it would under Prairie Farm Assi stance -- a saving to them. Surely this is a lever from which the Manitoba department could pres sure the Gov

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-5-64
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 5th hansardpdf 64.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	cd6c458dc4ead56419a7cb5c4811bbbd5af601ec

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