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November 3, 2016

41st Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2016-Nov-03 (PDF)

L026 - Thu 3 Nov 2016 / Jeu 3 nov 2016

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Thursday 3 November 2016 Jeudi 3 novembre 2016

Orders of the Day

Election Statute Law Amendment Act, 2016 / Loi de 2016 modifiant des lois en ce qui concerne les élections

Introduction of Visitors

Report, Financial Accountability Officer

Oral Questions

By-election in Sudbury

By-election in Sudbury

By-election in Sudbury

By-election in Sudbury

Government fiscal policies

By-election in Sudbury

Road safety

By-election in Sudbury

By-election in Sudbury

Ontario Trillium Foundation

By-election in Sudbury

By-election in Sudbury

Transfer payments

By-election in Sudbury

By-election in Sudbury

International trade

Answers to written questions

Correction of record

Visitors

Legislative pages

Opposition day motion

Members’ Statements

Town of Collingwood

Living Wage Week

Holocaust Education Week

Ontario Chiropractic Association

Hotel industry

Diwali and Bandi Chhor Divas

Community Living Dufferin QPAC

Jamie High

Korean Canadian community

Visitor

Introduction of Bills

Putting Consumers First Act (Consumer Protection Statute Law Amendment), 2016 / Loi de 2016 donnant la priorité aux consommateurs (modifiant des lois en ce qui concerne la protection du consommateur)

Motions

Committee sittings

Petitions

Hydro rates

Autism treatment

Hydro rates

Privatization of public assets

Health care funding

Privatization of public assets

Health care funding

Dental care

Hydro rates

Education funding

Privatization of public assets

Private Members’ Public Business

Children’s Law Reform Amendment Act (Relationship with Grandparents), 2016 / Loi de 2016 modifiant la Loi portant réforme du droit de l’enfance (relation avec les grands-parents)

Hindu Heritage Month Act, 2016 / Loi de 2016 sur le Mois du patrimoine hindou

Human Rights Code Amendment Act (Genetic Characteristics), 2016 / Loi de 2016 modifiant le Code des droits de la personne (caractéristiques génétiques)

Children’s Law Reform Amendment Act (Relationship with Grandparents), 2016 / Loi de 2016 modifiant la Loi portant réforme du droit de l’enfance (relation avec les grands-parents)

Hindu Heritage Month Act, 2016 / Loi de 2016 sur le Mois du patrimoine hindou

Human Rights Code Amendment Act (Genetic Characteristics), 2016 / Loi de 2016 modifiant le Code des droits de la personne (caractéristiques génétiques)

Orders of the Day

Aggregate Resources and Mining Modernization Act, 2016 / Loi de 2016 sur la modernisation des secteurs des ressources en agrégats et des mines

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

Orders of the Day

Election Statute Law Amendment Act, 2016 / Loi de 2016 modifiant des lois en ce qui concerne les élections

Resuming the debate adjourned on November 2, 2016, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 45,

An Act to amend certain Acts with respect to provincial elections / Projet de loi 45, Loi visant à modifier certaines lois en ce qui concerne les élections provinciales.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Questions and comments? Seeing none, further debate?

Mr. Ted Arnott: I’m pleased to have this opportunity this morning to speak to Bill 45, the Election Statute Law Amendment Act, which was introduced by the Attorney General on October 19 and is now at the second reading debate stage.

It’s ironic that we’re debating changes to the election laws in Ontario, when, as we know, this place is consumed with the events of this week: the news that the OPP have charged two senior Liberal operatives, one of whom was previously and recently the deputy chief of staff to the Premier, as well as one of the significant Liberal organizers in Sudbury. They’ve been charged under the Election Act with allegedly offering a bribe to Andrew Olivier, who had previously been the Liberal candidate in a provincial election.

Apparently, the Liberal operatives were trying to get him to stand down as a candidate. He was, in fact, recording the discussions because he’s a quadriplegic, and those recordings were released into the public domain as well as to the OPP. After a two-year investigation, we see that charges have been laid.

Yesterday, we learned that there were other implications for the current member for Sudbury who currently sits in the cabinet as the Minister of Energy. His name was included in the police documents that were filed with the court. All of this is very, very troubling, as we know, and it continues to be the focus of discussion in the Legislature as we discuss and debate Bill 45.

However, I want to focus, in the short time that I have, on some of the elements of this bill. We see that the Election Act is being amended or at least there’s a proposal to amend the Election Act to allow for sharing of equipment, resources and data, which would allow equipment, advice, staff or other resources to be shared with other electoral authorities in Canada, specifically removing the restriction on sharing vote-counting equipment. Any funds acquired through the sharing of equipment, staff or other resources are paid into the Consolidated Revenue Fund.

I doubt that any of the political parties proposed that change. I suspect that came from the Chief Electoral Officer of Ontario, and I think that it’s probably in the public interest that we agree to that amendment to the Election Act.

There’s also an amendment with respect to vote-counting equipment. I understand that the bill indicates that the Chief Electoral Officer may issue a directive which would require the use of vote-counting equipment during an election. Vote-counting equipment must not be connected to a network during voting hours, but may be connected to a secure network after the polls close for the purpose of sending the results to the Chief Electoral Officer. Of course, this is intended to bring modern technology into the tabulation of our ballots.

Again, I think that it is prudent and reasonable that we look at these ways of improving the system of counting the ballots as long as we can ensure that there is integrity in the process.

The equipment must be tested before the first elector uses it and after the last elector has used it; I think that’s prudent and reasonable as well. The equipment must not be used in a way that enables the choice of an elector to be made known to an election official or scrutineer. Again, I think that obviously is a recommendation that most likely has come to us from the Chief Electoral Officer, and it would appear to be consistent with some of the other recommendations he has made to modernize the process.

There is a provision with respect to voting information. A candidate or registered party may opt out of receiving copies of polling lists, the permanent register of electors, extracts of or updates to the permanent register of electors, or any other elector information. This, again, is an important issue in my riding. During the election campaigns that I’ve been privileged to run in as a candidate—I guess seven now—I try to make it a practice not to tell our local returning officer how to do his or her job.

I feel, as a candidate, it’s not my right or my obligation or my responsibility to try to run the election as well as be a candidate at the same time. But when there are complaints, many of the complaints do come to our campaign office, and the volunteers who have supported me over the years in many cases will refer those complaints to the local returning officer.

During the course of this debate, we’ve heard from a number of members that the voting lists appear to have significant problems. When I think back to the very first elections that I was involved in, in the 1980s as a volunteer—as you may know, Madam Speaker, we used to enumerate everybody, every voter, in the ridings across the province. It was a very time-consuming process and somewhat expensive, I’m sure, in comparison to how we do it today, but I’m not 100% sure of that. But it did get us to having local voter lists that were actually quite accurate, and I think it’s time to do that again.

We need to spend the resources to update the list and get it up to a more accurate state, similar to what it was in the 1980s. I would recommend that during the course of this debate. We really have to do something to improve the accuracy of our voters lists all across the province in every riding.

Voting day for scheduling elections changes from the first Thursday in October to the first Thursday in June. Now, it is popular, I think, in terms of public opinion polling—I would have seen this question tested through public opinion polls. The whole idea of having a fixed term and a fixed election date well in advance seems to be popular, but I would suggest and submit to the House that it is somewhat inconsistent with the whole idea of parliamentary democracy.

We know that within the Legislature here and in the House of Commons and in Westminster in Great Britain, and indeed across the Commonwealth, in parliamentary democratic systems the government is accountable and responsible to the Legislature or to the House of Commons, and, day to day, month to month, year to year it has to govern with the confidence of the House. We, as elected members and legislators—actually, perhaps this is new to some of us, but our greatest power is our decision day to day to express whether or not we have confidence in the government of the day.

Backbench government members have an obligation also to consider that and to take steps to hold the government accountable. Again, this is fundamental parliamentary democracy 101, but I think, to some degree, it’s been overlooked and, quite frankly, forgotten in a number of respects.

The fact is, fixed-term dates are often not adhered to. Certainly, if the government loses the confidence of the House or the Legislature, an election can be triggered, if the Lieutenant Governor agrees that one is necessary. So this whole idea of fixed-term dates, I think, to some degree, is misleading to the people. In this current Parliament, since the election in 2014, I think the government has publicly stated three different election dates. Do we have confidence that this is now the final word on when the election is going to be?

I’m not sure how we would, because just in two and a half years, the government has told us three different dates as to when the provincial election is going to be. Again, I would submit that that may change. If there is perhaps a leadership change within the government party—there are a number of scenarios, of course. We don’t have to look too far back into history to see where this might, in fact, change yet again. I just want to put that on the record because I think it’s important.

I also recently received a very interesting letter from the Wellington Federation of Agriculture concerning the representation of agriculture within rural ridings. It was addressed to the Premier by Janet Harrop, who is the president of the Wellington Federation of Agriculture. I just have a couple of minutes left, but I think this is a really important issue in terms of the representation of rural residents and I want to put it on the record as well.

“The Wellington Federation of Agriculture ... is the largest farm organization in the county of Wellington and works in concert with the Ontario Federation of Agriculture.... Both federations work to develop consensus in a diverse agriculture industry and lobby for policies that create a sustainable and profitable environment for farming in Ontario. In fact, WFA represents over 1,300 farm businesses within the county of Wellington.

“Wellington county is an agricultural powerhouse. According to the 2011 census of agriculture, Wellington county farms generate more than $685 million in farmgate receipts annually, provide 58,000 weeks of work to the local labour market, and are stewards of over 495,000 acres of land.”

It goes on: “After the review and subsequent reduction in the number of provincial ridings in 1999 we have seen more urban density of voters and continued movement of the voter voice from the rural area to the urban centres in Ontario. The census of rural Ontario has seen the number of voters in the rural area decrease as farms become more efficient and consolidate with” fewer “owners/operators and the size of rural families decreasing.

The needs of agricultural versus urban businesses differs significantly from a municipal, provincial and federal level and each voice needs to have equal weighting in the country, with the reduction of the number of ridings from 130 to 103 and the number of residents within the riding increasing on average from an approximate” size “of 60,000 to 115,000.”

She goes on to say that there’s been an exemption in northern Ontario due to geographic size and low density of voters in those large northern ridings. She makes the point that we need to express some degree of consideration for the large geographic size of our rural ridings—which unfortunately has been taken out of the equation.

I see I’m out of time, Madam Speaker, and I appreciate the indulgence you gave me this morning.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Questions and comments?

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: It’s always my pleasure to stand up in the House, and to add my voice to Bill 45. It’s a really important bill. I know it’s 15 recommendations or suggestions from the chief elections officer of Ontario, but really, this is such an important piece of legislation—and it is a bit of housekeeping that we’re going through with it. We’re just trying to clean up some of the rules that are applicable when there’s an election.

One of the interesting pieces of this—and we’ve been talking about this quite extensively—is the youth engagement piece in the elections. The actual act here defines how to engage youth voters, and they’re going to start having a registry where 16- and 17-year-olds can actually put their names on the registry so that when they turn 18, they are already on there and they can get their slip. It can be a much easier paper process with less paper and less running around looking for your identification to register to vote.

On that note, I want to let everyone know that I have some guests here today, and they are youth. These youth are so engaged in civic politics that they took the time to drive all the way from London, Thorndale and Ilderton to come here and spend the day at the Legislature to learn about politics and to learn what our democracy is all about. So I want to give them a round of applause.

Applause.

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: Last night, I had a wonderful conversation about legislation, laws in Ontario and the ideology of different political parties with some of the youth, and it really inspired me. It inspired me to feel that—you know what? There is life in the youth and interest in elections. Hopefully, when they leave here, they’re going to tell all their friends, and it’s going to continue. We need to do that more under this bill.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Questions and comments?

Mrs. Gila Martow: I’m very pleased to rise to make some comments on my colleague and the NDP speaker who spoke. I’m a little surprised that there are no questions or comments from the Liberal caucus, since my PC colleague was mentioning that, as we’re speaking on Bill 45, the Election Statute Law Amendment Act, it’s a peculiar week to be debating this. He has actually said to me personally that he’s a little surprised that the government would even want this to be discussed this week in the face of ongoing allegations of bribery in the Sudbury by-election.

I have to question why the government didn’t put up a speaker. I’m guessing that they’re looking down at their desks thinking, “Gee, yeah, I wonder whose decision it was to bring this for discussion today.”

We’re all concerned about elections. We want elections to be fair. We want as many voters as possible to vote at election time, to feel engaged, to know the issues and not just to tick off the ballot but to really feel that their vote counted in the election. I think that Thornhill went through a rough time in the last election because unofficially they were told that I had possibly lost on election night and then the next day it was overturned when five or six mistakes were caught at different polls. It brings us to also think about who is working on elections at election time and why mistakes were made.

I’m not going to get into whether or not there was an investigation. I’m guessing that there wasn’t any deep investigation at the time of the election. But people are raising concerns to me in Thornhill about the next election. They want to know if the people who worked at the polls where mistakes were made—and we are calling them mistakes, Madam Speaker—will be rehired at the next election time.

I’m not able to answer that question, but maybe it’s something that should be thought of: that if somebody is not doing their job properly at an election, they should not be considered to be rehired the next time there is an election.

There are a lot of concerns about using electronics at election time, and I’ll leave that for another time.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Questions and comments.

M me France Gélinas: It was interesting to listen to the member from Wellington–Halton Hills. He finished by talking a little bit about the ridings in the north, and this is where I want to pick up on what he has to say. I represent one of those big, large ridings in northern Ontario, the riding of Nickel Belt. There is a First Nation in the riding of Nickel Belt at the federal level called Wahnapitae First Nation, which, because of an error that was made by somebody in Toronto who thought that nobody lived in the northern part of Nickel Belt, put them in the riding of Timiskaming–Cochrane.

It makes no sense, Speaker, to have the people of Wahnapitae First Nation belong to the riding of Timiskaming–Cochrane. They come to my office; they belong to Nickel Belt. They certainly are a vibrant part of Nickel Belt. But when this government had an opportunity to change the boundaries to put Wahnapitae First Nation where it belongs, in the riding of Nickel Belt, they voted against it.

They have an opportunity with this bill. Here, again, we are looking at the boundaries of electoral ridings in the north of Ontario. I urge all of my colleagues to do the right thing. Wahnapitae First Nation, every single chief and band council, has written to this government and asked that this mistake be corrected so that they are able to vote in the riding of Nickel Belt and they are able to feel like they belong to the riding of Nickel Belt.

So when it comes time to make amendments, I will be bringing forward an amendment to make sure that the Wahnapitae First Nation is put back in the riding of Nickel Belt and that this error that was made by somebody in southern Ontario, who did not care to check that there were people living in that part of my riding, is corrected once and for all.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Questions and comments. I recognize the Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation.

Hon. David Zimmer: Thank you very much, Speaker, for that recognition. My ministry appreciates it, and I appreciate the new name of Ministry of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation because the emphasis now is on building relationships with indigenous peoples and, of course, reconciliation. So I do recognize your recognition of me, albeit slowly.

I want to comment on those provisions of this bill that deal with the spring election date. There are many parts of the bill that will make voting easier, and one of them is moving the scheduled election date to the spring. That’s going to allow voters to take advantage of the warmer weather and longer daylight hours and, yes, make for easier campaigning. As the Attorney General said in his leadoff, there are many important advantages to having an election at this time of year: longer days, warmer weather and, most importantly, avoiding confusion with the municipal election season.

There are other benefits as well, and one of these considers the schedules of many people in the rural parts of the province in the late fall. Since the new fixed date would be just after planting season, it’s very convenient for Ontarians in hunting and fishing communities to not have voting conflict with their hunting and fishing activities.

There are also some administrative advantages to holding earlier elections. For example, one is that candidates in parties that are filing the required documents with Elections Ontario after the election would be doing so in the same calendar year as the election. That certainly makes some sense, that you would file all your required documents in the same calendar year that the election actually occurred. In the current situation, often these documents have been filed after the election year—

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Thank you. I return to the member from Wellington–Halton Hills for a wrap-up.

Mr. Ted Arnott: I want to express my appreciation to the members for London–Fanshawe, Thornhill, Nickel Belt and the Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation. He indicated what the new mandate of the ministry was; I always thought that was his mandate before the change of name.

In any event, I think we should revisit the comments that were made by the member for Nickel Belt. I know that the New Democrats, in the course of this debate, have raised that issue on a number of occasions and did so earlier in the week. While I would suggest that members of the Legislature should not be in the process, normally speaking, of setting their own riding boundaries—the term “gerrymandering” comes to mind; we see that in the United States. It’s real problem. We need to respect the independent commissions that set up riding boundaries and allow them to do their work without undue political interference.

I would say that in this case, from the arguments that I’ve heard from the member for Nickel Belt, there is a real issue in the north and in terms of her riding. I would hope that the government will take a good, hard look at it in a non-partisan way and look for the public interest to find a solution. I would hope that that can happen.

I want to go back again to the concern that we have about the Sudbury by-election. I know that this has continued to be the course of the focus of the debate in this Legislature and in the media—and in the coming days. Seriously, Madam Speaker, when we see what has apparently happened in Sudbury, we have to think again about the ethics of our electoral process. Surely, the people of Ontario would expect the political parties to be observing the electoral law and to be playing by the rules during an election campaign, so that there’s integrity in the process and integrity in the outcome and general acceptance of the outcome.

It’s fundamental to democracy that we, as political parties, live by the rules within the Election Act. Obviously, I would again remind the government that this is a very, very serious issue that they’re dealing with, and they have to respond appropriately.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Further debate.

Mr. Wayne Gates: I have a little bit of a rough voice today, so I’ll try and do the best I can. Before I get into the formal part of my speech, I’ve got to address two things I’ve heard this morning.

To my friend with the Liberal Party about election timing, my suggestion would be: Let’s have the election now so we can stop the sale of Hydro One. Just a thought.

And then, because I don’t want you to think I’m just picking on the Liberals this morning, yes, we’ve got an issue in Sudbury around the by-election, but I find it interesting this morning that the Conservative Party are hammering you over the election in Sudbury when they never, ever once talked about the Scarborough election—we have a new colleague with us—and the letter that was sent out—

Interjections.

Mr. Wayne Gates: Please, let me finish. I know it’s early in the morning. I’d like to get this out, Madam Speaker, because I think it’s fair and reasonable to say it.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Okay. You know the rules. The member from Niagara Falls—it’s his turn to speak. We need to be respectful.

I’m going to return to the member from Niagara Falls.

Mr. Wayne Gates: I just want to say about the Scarborough election: You can’t send a letter out to 13,000 new Canadians in Tamil and in Chinese, say that this is how you feel about sex ed and then come out on Monday and say, “No, I didn’t know anything about the letter.” What should have happened—I think it’s fair and reasonable to say this in this House. What should have happened instead of—

Interjection.

Mr. Wayne Gates: I’m okay? I thought you were going to stand up.

What I thought was fair and reasonable was to say, “Well, if that’s how you didn’t feel, why didn’t you send out that letter to the 13,000 people who were going to vote on that Thursday so they knew exactly what your position was?” I think that’s fair. If you’re going to go after one, you have to raise the Scarborough issue too. I thought that was really unfair to our new Canadians on that particular issue.

The interesting thing was, the win was by 13,000 votes. That’s a big win. Congratulations. You know how many letters were sent out? Thirteen thousand. That’s all I’m saying. I’m not saying anything other than that, but I think you’ve got to raise both those issues to be fair. I’ll start my speech now.

As always, it’s a great pleasure to rise in this House to speak about an incredibly important issue for our province; namely, how we conduct our elections. The bill before us today, the Election Statute Law Amendment Act, Bill 45, makes some important and welcome changes to how we conduct elections in the province of Ontario.

Over the last three years, the Chief Electoral Officer in the province has released a number of reports that sought changes to the way we conduct elections. The CEO has taken time to carefully review not only the 2014 general election but also multiple by-elections, and has put out some recommendations that I’m glad to see the government is following today.

The aims of this bill and, I would have to imagine, the aims of the CEO when he was releasing these recommendations are twofold. First, this bill is looking to increase voter turnout and voter participation. Clearly, that’s a good thing. Second, the bill is specifically seeking to increase representation of First Nations communities in the north of our province, which is also a good thing.

I think it would surprise no one that I and all my colleagues in the Ontario NDP think those are important goals. We should absolutely be doing everything in our power to drive up turnout and participation in our electoral system. Even more so, we need to put in the effort to make sure that northern First Nations communities are properly represented.

As a member who represents one of the most southern ridings in our province, I’m not going to spend a lot of time today telling the people of the north what they need or what they should be doing. We have some fantastic MPPs from the north in our caucus, and I know they will do a good job of informing us on how the north and the First Nations communities there see this bill.

That being said, I want to draw the House’s attention to one of the problems that I think this government has created for itself. You see, today I am standing here and speaking to a bill whose stated goal is to increase representation for First Nations communities and get them more involved in our electoral process. But yesterday, I rose in this House and laid out how the government is failing to properly consult First Nation communities when it comes to aggregate extraction and mining claims. The government introduced a very broad piece of legislation to address these issues in that sector, but failed miserably when it came to addressing one of the central issues.

The Liberal government still does not see fit to legislate a duty to consult with the First Nations people of our province, and I think that’s a mistake by all of us. How can the government stand with a straight face on Thursday and call for increased representation for First Nations communities when they stood on Wednesday and told the First Nations people of our province that there is no duty for us to consult with them when it comes to resource extraction? I think that’s fair and I think that’s valid. It’s a little ridiculous, what happened there.

Does this government truly believe that by simply playing more ads in First Nations communities they’re going to overcome the decades-long oppression that has led to the current levels of participation in our political system among First Nations people? I certainly hope not.

We need to finally legislate a duty to consult the First Nations people when it comes to resource extraction, but also when it comes to any issue that affects them, their land or their livelihoods. I’ll repeat that: their lands, their livelihood. That and only that will change the current dynamic and encourage the First Nations people of this province to participate in our electoral system.

There are some other provisions of this bill that I do look at as being a step in the right direction. One of the things I’ve tried to do since getting the honour of being elected to represent the people of Niagara Falls, Fort Erie, Niagara-on-the-Lake and everything in between is to do everything in my power to get young people involved in politics. That’s why it’s so nice to see all these young people here listening to the debate this morning. And this is interesting: All my staff is under 30; my campaign teams had a full group of young people. I was so proud when my youngest daughter voted for the first time last year. I won’t tell you who she voted for because it’s a secret ballot.

Interjection.

Mr. Wayne Gates: Now, now.

I try my best to engage as many young people in the political process as I possibly can. Why is that? As anyone who knows me knows, I didn’t have a lot of opportunity growing up. My family didn’t have a lot of money, so I went and worked in a factory at a real young age. Through the factory, I was able to get involved in my union, and through my union, I got involved in politics, but it sure did take a long time. I want to make sure that everyone who doesn’t have an opportunity to get into politics is given that opportunity. It’s so important.

That is why I was very pleased to see that Bill 45 takes some good steps in the right direction when it comes to increasing youth participation in our electoral process.

Let me start with the obvious one. Bill 45 will ensure that the CEO will create a volunteer registration of eligible 16- and 17-year-olds. Those 16- and 17-year-olds will then be automatically transferred to a permanent register of electors once they reach the voting age. I think that’s great. I’m incredibly happy to see them taking this step to encourage young people to start to learn and be involved in our process even before they are able to vote. I think that’s important.

There are some other provisions in the bill that I think will also help encourage young people to be involved in our system, although they are less obvious. One example of this is a provision in the bill that prescribes penalties to owners of multiple-residence buildings who deny canvassers in their buildings. I came across that in both my by-election and the general election. I think it’s unfortunate, once again, that the details of this provision are being left to regulation, but it’s a good provision in theory and certainly important.

Now, most people look at that and say, “How does that help young people get involved?” Let me try to tell you—or “inform” you might be a better word. I think it’s no secret that more and more young people in the province of Ontario can’t afford to buy a house. We won’t get into the reasons for that today, but it means those young people are living in apartment buildings or multiple-residence buildings. In turn, the people most negatively affected by canvassers and candidates not being able to get into those buildings are those young people.

I think the provision will allow us better access to those buildings, which, in turn, means better access to those young people and, hopefully, since we are all good canvassers—how many here aren’t good canvassers? Put your hands up. We’re all good canvassers. It means that more of those young people will get out and vote.

There is another provision in this bill I would like to highlight because, again, I think it’s one that will help get more young people involved in the process. The provision that I’m talking about now will allow the CEO discretion on how he or she is able to communicate directly to the electorate.

I’ll finish up on my comments. Thank you very much.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Questions and comments?

Mr. John Fraser: It’s a pleasure to respond to the member for Niagara Falls, as always. It’s really interesting to listen to him debate.

I do want to say to the member, though, that I think, as far as relations and reconciliation with our indigenous population, this government has put it at the front of our agenda. I take what he’s saying to heart on the aggregate act and some of the work that the minister is doing in that regard in terms of consultations to try and unify and make consistent the consultations we have with different ministries and our indigenous partners. There is a difference in the way the private sector does consultations. Our indigenous partners are diverse and we have to make sure that we relate to each other in a unified, consistent way.

I just want to respond to him in that way. I take his remarks as trying to be constructive. I just want to let him know what we’re doing on this side.

I do say, for this act, that one of the things that I’m really very happy about is the registration of youth. Quebec and Nova Scotia do that at 16 and 17 years old. We do have to engage youth. We do have to make sure that they know about the process, that it’s not a struggle when it’s their first time to vote because they haven’t paid income tax and they haven’t found themselves on the federal roll. I think that’s really critical.

There are a number of other good measures in the bill. We’ve had a lot of back and forth this morning, and to and fro. I’m loath to mention Scarborough, but I do want to say that the issue of that letter never really having been resolved as to its origin and coming clean on it does add to cynicism. But there is also a question that never really got asked: Who paid for that letter? That was never fully answered.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Questions and comments?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: I’m pleased to rise to respond to the member from Niagara Falls on the debate on Bill 45 and his comments related to it.

I think there’s a real missed opportunity in Bill 45. One of the ongoing, regular complaints we get when we are running for election, when we are participating, is the frustration that people have with the electoral lists. Bill 45 doesn’t resolve that.

I have no issue in having young people, 16 and 17, pre-register. The reality is, in Dufferin–Caledon, the vast majority of young people who choose to continue their education in post-secondary will leave our community at the age where they’re about to embark on their voting career.

If we can pre-register those individuals to make that process smoother, I think that’s a great thing, but we have a big gap that we have all seen, that we’ve all dealt with, and that is the accuracy of the election lists. The Chief Electoral Officer has referenced it in almost all of his reports that he’s presented after every general election. I would have liked to see some actual, concrete improvements to ensure that we start with a cleaner, more accurate list at the beginning of our elections. I think that would encourage people to get out and vote.

There’s nothing more frustrating than going to the same voting station that you’ve gone to for 20 years to find that you’re not on the list. It’s very frustrating for people, to the point where they get angry and then they leave. That does nothing for our democracy. I wish Bill 45 had included more of that.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Questions and comments?

Ms. Peggy Sattler: I want to congratulate my colleague the member for Niagara Falls on his remarks on this legislation.

One of the things he spent some time focusing on in his speech was about the importance of measures to engage more young people in the electoral process. Certainly, we welcome the initiative to register 16- and 17-year-olds in advance so that when they turn 18, their names are automatically added to the voters list and they can receive the voter card in the mail.

But at the same time, I think we can all learn a lot from what happened in the last federal election, with unprecedented numbers of young people showing up at the polls to vote. There was a study that was released by Samara that talked about the fact that 53% of young Canadians talked about their voting experience with people they knew, compared to only a third of Canadians who were aged 56 or older. So young people are interested in politics, and one of the things that mobilizes them to participate is the issues. We know that we have a lot of work to do to make sure that the issues that young people care about are reflected in the platforms of our parties.

Yesterday, I presented a petition with 40,000 signatures from college and university students across this province calling on the government for a reduction and elimination of tuition fees, to convert loans to non-repayable grants and to remove the interest from existing student loans. We know that precarious work is a huge issue for young people. We have a lot of work to do in order to respond to the issues that are important to young people so that they see their concerns reflected in our platforms.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Questions and comments.

Hon. Michael Chan: I want to really thank the MPP from Niagara Falls for the remarks. I also want to congratulate the young people over there for being here today. Definitely, Bill 45 has a lot about young people voting. The introduction of the voter register—age 16 and age 17—definitely will enhance young people’s interest and make the process much easier for them to participate when they reach the wonderful age of 18 years old.

I was a bit amazed by the MPP from Niagara Falls, who talked about the most recent by-election, the one in Scarborough–Rouge River. I happened to be there. Yes, there’s a lot of confusion and many questions, but there are no answers. For example, you talk about the 13,000—which is a big, big number—letters signed by the opposition leader. Of course, nobody knows whether he actually signed the letter or someone signed the letter for him; that’s one.

Also, another person who was running as an independent in the by-election, Queenie Yu—that also was a complex situation there, because when you looked at the website at the time, Queenie Yu actually was kind of like a PC member on the website. This is very strange, when you have two PC members running in the same riding. It’s a lot of confusion in the end, and we need to get to the bottom of this.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Thank you, Minister. I return to the member from Niagara Falls to wrap up.

Mr. Wayne Gates: I just want to get a couple of points out, and then I’ll address some of the comments. I thank all my colleagues for their comments.

This bill certainly gets some things right. It encourages participation among young people. It brings the communications of the CEO into the 21st century. It allows the actual process of voting to move forward by inviting the use of electronic voting machines.

But this bill has some flaws. This bill, I believe, does not adequately meet its stated goal of increasing representation of First Nations communities. This bill, like many others brought forward by the government, leaves too many details to regulation.

Madam Speaker, I want to be clear: I will be supporting this bill when it comes to a vote. But once again, I find myself needing to express a hope that this government will address the flaws in its own legislation through the committee process. I know we haven’t seen that in a lot of our bills. But the other parties have good ideas when it comes to committees. You should listen to the other parties and get the bill right.

I want to finish up by addressing—I’m not going to get into the north, because I know my colleague NDP MPPs who were voted there will take care of that particular issue. But I will address young people. I know I’m supposed to talk to you, but I’m hoping they’re listening—because I know I can’t do this. I want to say to the young people that we’re trying to get, this is your time—maybe not quite this young. What are the issues for young people? The issues for young people are the environment: We want to make sure we have clean water, clean air.

We have to make sure, collectively, we do that between the three parties. Jobs: What type of jobs are there going to be for young people? The types of jobs that are out there today—we had a government at a higher level say that young people have to accept precarious work, that young people have to accept part-time work. I’m saying to the young people today: You don’t have to accept that at all. You’re going to school. You’re one of the most—oh, I’m done.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Thank you. Further debate.

Mr. Chris Ballard: I just wanted to speak for a few minutes about Bill 45 and about how, in my opinion, it will really help bring young voters to the table. I go back to my days as a young person—I was young at one time. I had a full head of hair, and it was black, believe it or not.

Hon. Dipika Damerla: You still have a full head of hair.

Hon. Chris Ballard: I still have a fairly full head of hair; thank you very much. It depends where the camera shines from.

I only have so much time. Let me get back to the issue at hand rather than my hair. The issue was that, starting in high school, we were very fortunate to have teachers who engaged us in discussion about the political process, encouraged us to be involved in the political process and really demonstrated that even at a younger age, even when we weren’t able to cast a vote, we could still influence those who were politicians. I recall getting involved with municipal politics as a young person when the region—the county of York, in those days—wanted to cut down a bunch of trees and widen roads. We got involved with that.

I remember getting involved as a young person in a whole bunch of areas that impacted, maybe not my life immediately, but certainly we could see down the road. What it really took was adults to encourage us to get involved and to show us that our impact in those days could really mean something.

I fast-forward to sitting around a council table in Aurora. The discussion always was, “How do we get youth involved?” I always found it was fairly simple to get youth involved in our town decision-making: You had to invite them and you had to give them a meaningful role to play. Even though they weren’t at the council table, you had to demonstrate that their voice was being heard and that you could show them where their voice was being heard. When we did that, we were quite successful in engaging youth.

I move forward a little bit more. I look at some of the ways that Bill 45 is going to engage youth. I’m so happy to see that, if passed, it will modernize the voting process and engage young people in this political process earlier by pre-registering them at 16 or 17 to let them know that they’ve got a few years to get engaged and to think about what’s going on. It’s my belief that, through that process, they will see us as treating them more as adults in an adult role and that we’re preparing them to think about their future as voters and hopefully their future as legislators, as politicians.

I get tired of hearing the phrase, “Young people are our future.” Well, young people are the future, but young people are current right now. Their needs today are our needs today. I think that that piece of legislation targeting 16- and 17-year-olds is absolutely critical to engaging younger people at a good time. I also think that it is really important for all of us here in the House, all elected officials, no matter what level of government, to engage with young people and get them interested in making decisions about their country, their community and their town.

The other thing about Bill 45 that intrigues me and that makes me quite happy is the establishment of the Far North Electoral Boundaries Commission to improve the representation of people living in Ontario’s northernmost communities, including indigenous people. I know that most of the proposals that are contained in Bill 45 were based on Ontario’s Chief Electoral Officer and his office’s report—absolutely critical.

I don’t have to tell anybody in this House—because most of us have done a lot of travelling in Ontario, whether individually in previous lives, perhaps, or as part of provincial committees. We’ve travelled this province. We understand that northern ridings really are unique. I know that each of us believes our riding is unique, but northern ridings perhaps are more unique than other ridings.

I certainly know, having spent time in the north, the challenges of geography: that it can take a northern MPP an entire day to travel from one side of their riding to another, with a number of small communities in between. It is difficult to stay in touch on a day-to-day basis, a weekly basis, with their constituents. Our government wants to improve representation of people living in Ontario’s northernmost communities, again, especially including indigenous people.

If passed, this legislation aims to add two new ridings in the northernmost parts of our province, and we want to know how to do that in a way that’s responsible, that’s principled, and that will improve the state of representation in that area. We think an independent commission is the best way to ensure that any changes to the electoral boundaries in that region work in the interests of the people who live there.

Let me just go back for one second and talk a little bit about the pre-voter registration for 16- and 17-year-olds and, again, my strong belief that the earlier we engage young people in understanding the political process—getting involved in the political process right now is really important to making sure that they participate when they come of age to vote. The bill obviously is about encouraging youth participation. We know that Elections Ontario already does some good outreach to get youth interested in the electoral process.

The process of registering on a provincial registry will give youth a new way to get involved. Some other countries are already doing this, I’m told, including some American states and Australia. Here in Canada, both Quebec and Nova Scotia currently have advance registration for 16- and 17-year-olds. As we’ve seen in these jurisdictions, creating this provincial registry can help engage youth in the election process before they’re eligible to vote. And I guess, at the end of the day, we want young people to know that voting matters.

So, if passed, Bill 45 would modernize the voting process and would better engage people and make it easier for them to vote. The bill would engage young people in the political process by introducing that registry. It would make it easier to find advance polls by standardizing locations. It would establish a Far North Electoral Boundaries Commission.

Most of these proposals are based on the recommendations, as I said earlier, coming from Ontario’s Chief Electoral Officer. In Ontario, we’re facing that challenge of getting more than the 52% of people who voted out to vote.

I’ve sat through some of the debate around Bill 45 and I know that we have allowed debate to continue when we reached the six and a half hours of debate time—I was here when that moved on—so that more members from all sides would have an opportunity to present their views on the bill. The bill has seen more than nine and a half hours of debate, and we’ve had many of our members in this Legislature speak to the bill, as I said earlier. There has been considerable debate on this bill and we’ve heard a wide range of viewpoints, opinions and perspectives.

In fact, during second reading, we heard members of the opposition and third party express their support for this important legislation. One member from the opposition, the member for Nepean–Carleton, said, “I think it’s important that we bring in modern technology, which is why the Progressive Conservative Party and our caucus will support this legislation.” The member for Bramalea–Gore–Malton said, “All told, this bill has a number of positive things and it’s something that we’re prepared to support.”

However, at this point, much of the debate is now repeating points already made by members and I’ve heard a number of those today, so it’s time that the bill is put to a vote for second reading and hopefully—

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Okay, questions and comments?

Mr. Raymond Sung Joon Cho: I was paying attention to all of my colleagues about this important bill, and I’m so glad that our younger generation are here, our future leaders. You’re going to lead this great country. It’s very important that young people get involved in the election system, and the earlier the better. We are saying that we are borrowing this great planet from our future generations. So you are the leaders, and I’m so glad you guys are here.

Madam Speaker, I heard a lot of MPPs talking about my by-election in Scarborough–Rouge River, and I would like to add some comments there, too.

I ran as a PC MPP—I was very proud—and in my election, I got more than 10% from the second candidate—almost 2,500 votes. The one candidate ran on one issue, the sex education issue, and she got around 500 votes all together. I was knocking on almost every door, and only one person asked me about sex education. The major issue was—I’m going to repeat this—the major issue was the Liberal government waste over 13 years.

The second burning issue was skyrocketing hydro bills. One Chinese-Canadian lady said, “Councillor Cho, my electric bill rises every month. What’s happening?” Another issue was, how come the Liberal government just keeps ignoring Scarborough? Those are the major issues. Only one person asked about sex education. You tried to make a big issue out of almost nothing.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Questions and comments?

Ms. Peggy Sattler: I am pleased to contribute a couple of minutes to this important debate we’re having on Bill 45. Many of the members who have participated in the debate over the course of the last couple of weeks have really focused on the provisions in the bill to increase youth participation in the electoral process.

Absolutely, many of us agree that what is proposed, the provisional pre-registration of young people, is an important first step to motivate, to mobilize more young people to get out and vote on election day.

However, at the same time that we’re looking at what encourages young people to vote, we also have to look at what creates huge disincentives for young people to vote. One of those disincentives is cynicism. It’s cynicism about parties who promise one thing to get a vote and then don’t deliver.

We have seen cynicism on all levels of government. We recently saw the federal Liberal finance minister say to young people, “Precarious work is here to stay, so you’d better get used to it.” That is not why young people wanted to participate in the last federal election.

We also saw this provincial government unroll banners that said, “Free tuition in this province.” And we know, students know, that what the provincial Liberal government is offering is not free tuition. It is not going to do what is needed to address the skyrocketing costs of post-secondary education, the mortgage-sized debts that young people are graduating with.

These are issues that young people care about. They want to see the parties that they elect deliver on the promises and do something to address these very real, tangible concerns that young people have.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Questions and comments?

Hon. Liz Sandals: I can’t help but notice that my colleague opposite has moved on to discussing a wonderful initiative from our budget, which is restructuring OSAP so that students who come from families with incomes under $50,000 will actually get free college and university tuition.

I think what that actually demonstrates is that we’ve had a lot of debate on this bill—10 hours, almost. People have had an opportunity to express what they think about the actual bill. Pretty much anything you could say about the bill has been said. I know I had an opportunity to speak earlier in the week on the bill, which I firmly support. I think there are some great opportunities to have students pre-registered while they’re in high school and to get new election technology in there and actually take advantage of technology to make election day run more smoothly.

There are lots of great things in this bill. I think we’ve all had the opportunity to discuss what we like and what we don’t like, so we really need to move on. We need to vote on the bill and we need to move on with getting it, I guess, to committee now because this is second reading, and see if there’s any fine-tuning that needs to be done. But I think we’ve pretty much exhausted the debate here at second reading.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Questions and comments?

M me France Gélinas: It is very fitting that this morning we have a number of youth in the gallery with us to listen to this debate, because part of what we will be doing with this new bill will have an impact on them.

We have talked a lot about the changes in the bill to try to get youth to be more involved. If there’s an issue that I’m sure each and every one of those young people who are here with us care about, it’s their school. Yet, under this Liberal government, we see review after review of schools, and it always ends up the same way: Little schools in rural Ontario get closed down and then all of those kids get bused in to big, urban schools.

That makes no sense. It rips the guts out of the community. Once you don’t have a school in your community, you have no place to gather. You have no place to organize bake sales for the parents to get to know one another, for the families to share activities together. This is wrong, and these certainly are issues that young people care about. They care about their schools.

If we want to engage them in politics, we have to respect what is important to them. The reason that 70% of youth don’t bother to go vote is because what is important to them is not being treated with respect. They want to keep their school. I am so proud of the kids in Dowling, Chelmsford, Onaping and Lively who are mobilizing to keep their schools open because they are threatened with closure. I have seen this scenario before. Why don’t we pay more attention to what those kids want us to pay attention to and treat them with respect? That would go a long way to bringing them to the polls.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Response?

Hon. Chris Ballard: I’ve been listening to debate around Bill 45, and frankly, I’ve heard a wide range of issue and topics, and I don’t really need to hear any more debate.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Further debate?

Mrs. Julia Munro: I’m pleased to be able to join in the debate. Actually, I have a couple of things I want to speak about that are in the bill that I think deserve a little greater airing.

One of them is the notion of how to engage 16- and 17-year-olds, and at the same time, there is discussion within the ministry about removing the civics credit as a compulsory course. I can’t imagine a greater fundamental contradiction for the people who have stood in this chamber and talked about the need for people of that age to get exposure and to have an understanding of the political process, particularly the electoral process, and at the same time talked about eliminating civics from the curriculum.

I can’t think of a group of people charged with the leadership of any jurisdiction—their country, their community—not recognizing the importance of making sure that they have engaged young people in the workings of the government, in the workings of their society and understanding how it works. So to suggest, by the same government, that civics isn’t necessary but it’s necessary to have a list of 16- and 17-year olds simply is fundamentally contradictory.

The second thing I want to look at, in the few moments that I have, is the question of the change in the timing of the election. While those speakers have discussed the daylight hours and conflicts with other community activities as reasons why it should be changed from October to June, I have something else to add to the discussion, and that goes back to 2003 and the election at that time.

Since there was such a lot of controversy—as the accountants say, “Which do you want me to show you, a profit or a loss, a credit or a debit?” The government of the day thought that it was important that in subsequent elections there be a disciplined approach to understanding and a fulsome exposure of the government of the day and its finances because they felt that there had been problems with understanding and having full disclosure on the finances of the province going into an election.

By changing the date from the Thursday in October, this government then changes not only the daylight hours but also the ability of the Auditor General to have this document and this analysis in the hands of Ontarians, in the hands of candidates for all parties. I think it’s really important to lay out the groundwork, which has allowed the Premier to revisit this and deny the opportunity for everyone in Ontario to have that exposure and transparency that the government is quick to refer to.

Taking that away and making it impossible for people to have the benefit of the work of the Auditor General certainly flies in the face of the arguments they used back in 2003 when they wanted to give the Auditor General that kind of responsibility.

I’m just looking for some of the other issues.

By the way, going back on the issue of civics and the students’ exposure to this, certainly the province has model Parliaments organized around the province for students to participate in. They see it in a microcosm way in student government. There are all those avenues that have been made available and should continue to be as well.

It’s ironic that we should be discussing this bill under the circumstances that our province finds itself, with police investigations and things like that—very serious charges—and we are talking about making sure that 16- and 17-year-olds are on a list.

In the final few minutes that I have, I want to talk about that list. So many people on both sides of the House have talked about the voters list. I want to add my voice in that regard as well. It’s a disaster every election. There are people who died years before who have never been taken off. You always get irate phone calls about that kind of thing. I think the electoral list would be one of the first things that this should address and should make easier for people.

I mentioned the advance polls and the reductions in locations. The importance of the entrance into multi-resident buildings is something we should all agree with. I think some of the canvasser rules and things like that could be made easier, but I do think there has to be a greater understanding of the right to canvass in a multi-residence because, again, as other speakers have noted, it’s an extremely important part of the electoral process, going door-to-door. All of us have lots of experience in doing that.

Again, I would suggest: the voters list, better understanding of access to buildings, these are certainly things that the bill suggests with which I would certainly agree. The enemy of democracy is cynicism and apathy and the voting process should be something that everyone can take as an expression of opportunities that fly in the face of that cynicism and apathy.

Finally, I just want to end on why we’re doing this—why these various parts. The Chief Electoral Officer has also been able to make recommendations on sharing equipment and things like that which will make it more efficient and less expensive, which again is something that we would all want to support.

I just have one other thing that I suggested: that voting should be a positive experience. On the back of my car, it says, “Democracy: Don’t Waste It.” I would offer the comment to all of you that around the world, people are dying to have what we have.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Seeing as it’s almost 10:15, I will be recessing the House until 10:30.

The House recessed from 1013 to 1030.

Introduction of Visitors

Mrs. Gila Martow: I’m pleased to welcome Sue Norman, whom I met at TIFF, the Toronto International Film Festival. I invited her to come visit us. She has never been in this building before, and we’re so glad to see her. Thank you for coming, Sue.

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: It is my pleasure to introduce some guests who are here this morning at the Legislature: Tracy Soares, Dakota Soares, Dylan Soares, Jayde Soares, Saige Soares, Sherry Dikih, Kayla Dikih, Jordan Dikih, Zachary Dikih, Josiah Dikih, Alicia Martens, Ben Martens, Alex Martens and Nathan Martens. Please welcome them to the Legislature today.

Hon. Helena Jaczek: Please help me welcome a resident of my riding—the great riding of Oak Ridges–Markham—and a student at the University of Toronto, Jeffrey Li, in the east members’ gallery.

Mr. Bob Delaney: I direct members’ attention to the members’ east gallery to introduce a good friend and a Meadowvale resident, Mr. Masood Atchekzai, a former opponent who ran against me in the 2003 election. He is now a very good friend.

Mrs. Cristina Martins: It gives me great pleasure to rise in the House today to introduce guests of my amazing page, Bianca Morelli: her father, Jordan Morelli; her little brother, Matteo Morelli; her aunt, Mary Lizzotti; and her uncle, Tony Lizzotti. They’re in the public gallery right out here. Jordan and Matteo are having an amazing time here. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. John Fraser: I would like to welcome to the assembly the members of the Ontario chiropractors’ association and to remind everybody that they have a reception in room 228 right after question period.

Ms. Sophie Kiwala: It is my distinct pleasure to rise and welcome Kingston resident Arthur Milnes and a group of 60 students from Calvin Park Public School in Kingston, who are here today to enjoy a Sir-Wilfrid-Laurier-themed walking tour with our Premier. A warm Queen’s Park welcome to all, and I hope you enjoy your day.

Mr. Wayne Gates: I would like to introduce three visitors here today with the Professional Engineers Government of Ontario: George Collins, Ping Wu and Martin Haalstra. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Jeff Yurek: I know that they’ve been introduced earlier, but I too want to welcome some homeschoolers here today from my riding: Sherry, Kayla, Jordan, Zachary and Josiah Dikih; Alicia, Ben, Alex and Nathan Martens; and, on behalf of Lambton–Kent–Middlesex, Tracy, Dakota, Dylan, Jayde and Saige Soares. Welcome. I hope you enjoy your day here.

I also want to say hi to Martin Haalstra from my riding. Welcome.

Mr. Raymond Sung Joon Cho: I’m very, very happy to welcome students from one of the best high schools in Toronto, Albert Campbell Collegiate Institute. They are in grade 10. Their teacher is Mr. Graham Bye. I hope that they have a great experience at Queen’s Park today.

Mr. Percy Hatfield: I would like to introduce my very good friend Howard Brown, who is over in the other gallery talking with Minister Zimmer at the moment.

Hon. Indira Naidoo-Harris: I would like to welcome a guest of page captain Riya Karumanchi. Her mother, Radhika Daggubati, is here in the public gallery this morning. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Todd Smith: I’d like to welcome Dr. Bruce Flynn, who is here with the Ontario Chiropractic Association. I had a chance to meet with him this morning briefly. Ayla Azad and Marg Harrington are also members of the Ontario Chiropractic Association. I would also like to welcome the son of a very good friend of mine from Prince Edward–Hastings: Ben Hendry joins us this morning, from the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): We do have a special delegation in the Speaker’s gallery today.

I have the honour of introducing the Right Honourable John Turner, who was the Prime Minister of Canada in 1984. With him is a delegation from Jamaica: the Minister of Health, Minister Christopher Tufton; Her Excellency Janice Miller, Jamaica’s High Commissioner to Canada; and the consul general of Jamaica in Toronto, Lloyd Wilks. Welcome. They join us today from Jamaica. Joining the delegation are Donette Chang, Marc Kealey and Howard Shearer.

Report, Financial Accountability Officer

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I beg to inform the House that I have today laid upon the table a report from the Financial Accountability Officer entitled Economic and Fiscal Outlook: Assessing Ontario’s Medium-term Prospects.

There are no further introductions. Therefore it is time for question period.

Oral Questions

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Steve Clark: Speaker, my question is for the Premier. The member from Simcoe–Grey is a man of great integrity. As Minister of Health, when the integrity of his office was called into question and his ministry was being investigated by the Integrity Commissioner, the member stepped aside as minister. He believed in the doctrine of ministerial responsibility and he did the right thing. He stepped aside until the investigation cleared his name.

Now that the Minister of Energy has been named in a charge laid by the OPP, the minister should also do the right thing. Mr. Speaker, has the Minister of Energy offered to step aside until the case against the Premier’s former deputy chief of staff has concluded?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, I know the member opposite understands that this is a matter that is before the courts. He understands also that there have been many, many questions asked and answered in this Legislature and outside of this Legislature.

We will continue to co-operate with any ongoing investigation, but the matter is before the courts and I know the member opposite understands that.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Steve Clark: Back to the Premier: My predecessor as member for Leeds–Grenville took his role in this democratic institution very, very seriously. While there was an investigation, the Solicitor General stepped aside, and he returned when he was cleared of any wrongdoing. Premier, the Minister of Energy needs to do the same.

Mr. Speaker, will the Premier ask the minister to step aside until the case against her former deputy chief of staff has concluded?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I just want to make one point very clear because I think it’s important to note that the Minister of Energy is under no investigation, Speaker. There are no charges laid against the Minister of Energy, so the assertions the member opposite is making are absolutely incorrect.

I do want to remind again and echo what the Premier said. This matter is before the courts. There are allegations and charges laid against certain individuals. None of them serve in this Legislature, Speaker. We should let the courts handle the matter based on evidence and the rules of procedure and the evidentiary rules that apply in the courts, not in this Legislature.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary?

Mr. Steve Clark: I’m going to go back to the Premier. I’m puzzled by that answer. When the integrity of a minister or their office is called into question, the minister has a responsibility to step aside until the investigation is complete. When the member for Eglinton–Lawrence was criticized by the Auditor General for a scandal in his ministry, the member stepped aside.

Our current Minister of Energy has been named in a charge laid by the OPP, and he accuses them of wrongdoing. It is disrespectful to the office he holds to remain as a minister while the case is before the courts.

Will the Premier demand that the minister step aside until the case against her former deputy chief of staff has concluded?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Start the clock. Be seated, please. Thank you.

Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: The Minister of Energy is under no investigation. There have been no charges laid against the Minister of Energy. He has co-operated with all investigations that have taken place up to this point.

The member opposite knows very well your comments, Speaker, that you made yesterday in this House, and I’m sure he read them again last night. This matter is before the courts, and the only appropriate place for this matter to be tried or litigated is in a court of law.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Steve Clark: My question is for the Premier. I want to remind the Legislature of a time when Liberal ministers had integrity. The former Minister of Finance, Greg Sorbara—

Interjections.

Mr. Steve Clark: No, listen. Listen up.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Come to order. If I knew who said it, they’d have to withdraw, and if you did say it, you can withdraw without me telling you to.

Mr. Toby Barrett: If you’re referring to me, I withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m not referring to anyone. I’ve made it clear. Are you withdrawing?

Mr. Toby Barrett: Yes.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Carry on.

Mr. Steve Clark: Former Minister of Finance Greg Sorbara resigned from his office when he became aware of a search warrant alleging he was the subject of an RCMP investigation. His name was simply in a search warrant, and he stepped aside until his name was cleared. Now we have a top Liberal aide being accused of bribing a minister of the crown, and the minister still holds office. This is incredibly inappropriate.

Why does the Premier refuse to have the minister step aside until the case against her former deputy chief of staff has concluded?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: As the Attorney General has said, the Minister of Energy is under no investigation. This matter is before the court. The member opposite knows full well that we need to let that court process unfold, not in this Legislature but within the court system.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Steve Clark: Back to the Premier: At no time have I accused the minister of wrongdoing, but the charges against Pat Sorbara speak for themselves. She is accused of offering an alleged bribe to the current Minister of Energy. Regardless, being named in a charge is unbecoming of a minister of the crown, and the minister must step aside.

Will the Premier turn to the minister, extend her hand and accept his letter of resignation?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Start the clock. Be seated, please. Thank you.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I appreciate the theatrics on the other side from the member opposite. Let’s be absolutely clear: The Minister of Energy is under no investigation whatsoever. Charges have been laid against two individuals who do not serve in this Legislature. The matter is before the courts, and that’s where it should be tried and litigated.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Steve Clark: Back to the Premier: This Liberal government has killed a lot of traditions in this province, but it’s sad to say that they’ve killed the tradition—actually, no, the duty—of ministerial responsibility. There used to be a time when ministers took their integrity seriously and believed they had to have the trust of the province, but that no longer exists in Liberal Ontario.

One last time, I implore the Premier: Please, do the right thing. Will you stand up, Premier, walk over to the minister’s desk and ask him to resign?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Attorney General?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Once again, the minister is under no investigation. The allegations in question that are now before the courts have nothing to do with the minister’s responsibility as Minister of Energy either. There is no nexus; there is no connection. This is a totally separate matter that does not involve the minister and his responsibilities as the Minister of Energy.

The most appropriate place for this matter to be dealt with is in a court of law. It is for a reason. The rule is stated in our standing order rules. Speaker, you referred to it very clearly yesterday. I ask the member opposite and all honourable members of this House to respect the rules that are laid out in our standing orders and let this matter be dealt with in the court of law.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: My question is to the Premier. There is very clearly an allegation of bribery against Ms. Sorbara. The allegation of bribery also includes a second allegation that is inferred. When you allege to bribe someone, there is also a potential of someone accepting that bribery. That’s another allegation, a potential allegation.

During this investigation—it’s before the courts, absolutely. The honourable thing to do in this circumstance is to have the minister step down while this investigation is going on. He’s connected in some way. Why hasn’t the Premier yet accepted the resignation of the Minister of Energy? Why not?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I will say to the member opposite that he used the word “allegation” perhaps three or four times, and he’s right: These are just allegations. The only place for those allegations to be proven, right or wrong, is in a court of law, not in this Legislature. There is a long-standing rule that relates to matters not being litigated in this House if they’re before a court or a tribunal.

The member opposite is a learned counsel. I know his rules well. He’s been a defence counsel. He understands the notion and the important principle of presumption of innocence. I only ask him to respect those, Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: I think the government doesn’t understand what’s going on here. This is not a matter of litigating the case. No one’s trying to litigate the case here, and if you have that belief, you’re clearly mistaken. This is a matter of integrity. The people of Ontario deserve a government with integrity. They deserve a Premier who puts the interests of the people of this province ahead of her party, of her friends, of protecting people in cabinet positions.

Given the very serious nature of the allegations—and yes, they are allegations, but they are very serious. Given the serious nature of these allegations, there is a responsibility for the Premier to do something. Does the Premier think it’s appropriate for the minister to continue in cabinet while these allegations are ongoing?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Absolutely, the matter is serious. Therefore, the matter should not be dealt with in a partisan environment like question period. That’s why that particular rule exists.

These are allegations that have to be dealt with in front of an impartial judge. That is why we’ve got independence between the judiciary, the executive and our legislative arm. We should all respect those very important divisions of power. We should not be litigating allegations, conjectures, speculations and queries in this House.

I urge the members opposite again: We should let this matter to be dealt with in a court of law.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Speaker, I urge the government to review these questions in Hansard. There’s no litigation of the offence here. I’m not litigating the offence; I’m simply saying that the people of this province deserve a government with integrity. When you have allegations that involve a cabinet minister, there are certain responsibilities that this government must act on.

It’s very clear that this has never happened in the history of this province ever before, where we have a cabinet minister who is involved in allegations. The allegations involve his name, involve a bribe of the minister of this crown. It’s very clear; the allegations are absolutely clear.

Why will the minister not step down and prove to Ontarians that they’re capable of putting aside their blind partisanship, that they’re capable of putting the interests of the people of this province ahead of their own party’s interests? Why can’t they do the honourable thing?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Be seated, please.

Attorney General?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, I think the member opposite knows—and I know he’s doing his very best to stretch this issue. The allegations in question have nothing to do with the minister’s responsibility as the Minister of Energy. The allegations are not towards the Minister of Energy. The government and the Premier remain very focused on their responsibilities and their obligations to the people of Ontario.

This is a matter that is before the courts, Speaker, and the member opposite knows very well that it should be litigated before the courts, not in this Legislature.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Speaker, my question, again, is to the Premier. I think the government needs to get new speaking notes. No one is talking about litigating this case. We’re asking a very clear thing here. During the last provincial election, this Premier promised Ontarians that she would be different. She promised the people that, under her leadership, this party would not be riddled with scandals—like her predecessor’s was. Yet again, the people of this province are disappointed.

Will the Premier put aside her blind partisanship, in terms of protecting her party, and protect the people’s interests; put aside her blind partisanship and support the needs of the people of this province and ask the Minister of Energy to simply step aside during these very serious allegations?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: The member opposite is asking us to focus on the people of Ontario. Mr. Speaker, I just want to say that every morning when I get up and every morning when we begin our work here, we are focusing on the people of Ontario. We’re focusing on the young people in our schools. We’re focusing on the seniors who need support in hospitals and in their homes. We’re focusing on the needs of the municipalities to have infrastructure. All of that is the work that we are all—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke, come to order.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: That is the work of our government. That is the plan that we are implementing.

I have been very open with the media. I’ve been open in the Legislature. I have answered questions over and over again. I said in 2015 that if and when there were charges laid, Pat Sorbara would step aside. Pat Sorbara has stepped aside. She has done exactly what I said would happen. Now the matter is before the courts and we —

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Prince Edward–Hastings, come to order.

Supplementary?

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Speaker, it shouldn’t take criminal charges for the government to display that they have integrity. It shouldn’t require that. This is yet another example of the Premier allowing her concern for her party to take precedence over the responsibilities of governing this province, which are the responsibilities of the Premier. It’s Liberals protecting Liberals again.

Will the Premier for once stop being so blindly partisan and put the province’s interests first? Understand that faith in this government is being questioned right now—the province has a responsibility to ensure that that faith is kept strong—and ask the minister to step aside during these allegations.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I’m not a lawyer, but the member opposite is a lawyer, so he knows we’re not talking about criminal charges, Mr. Speaker, even though he uses that language, I assume, intentionally. I can’t second-guess that, but I assume he uses that intentionally. These are not criminal charges we’re talking about.

I said in 2015 that if and when charges were laid, Pat Sorbara would step aside. She has stepped aside. She has done that.

Our responsibility—all of us—is to understand that, under a presumption of innocence, that matter is now before the courts. I would expect, of all of the members in the NDP—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke, second time. The Minister of Indigenous Relations, come to order.

Supplementary?

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Speaker, did the Premier learn nothing from waiting so long to dismiss her top aide over this scandal? She said over and over in this assembly that she stood by Ms. Sorbara and that Ms. Sorbara had done nothing wrong. Yet here we are, two days after Ms. Sorbara was charged by the OPP, and the Premier is making the same mistake again. She has an opportunity to do the right thing. They are allegations—absolutely, they are allegations—and the minister and everyone involved in this is entitled to the presumption of innocence. But there’s a certain perception here.

There’s a perception that there is an allegation involving the minister. There’s a bribery allegation of that minister. That minister has a responsibility to step aside during this investigation. It’s the right thing to do. So will the Premier do the right thing and ask her Minister of Energy to step aside until this matter is dealt with?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Attorney General?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Once again, Speaker, in terms of the actions she’s taken, when Ms. Sorbara was charged under the Election Act offences, the Premier took the step of showing she no longer works for the Ontario Liberal Party.

In this matter, there are no allegations that relate to the Minister of Energy. There are no allegations that relate to his responsibility as the Minister of Energy. These are allegations that are very separate and aside from the business of this House. The only appropriate venue, the only right place for that matter to be dealt with is in the court of law. I know the member opposite knows and expects all members to respect that very important principle in our legislative democracy.

Government fiscal policies

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Good morning, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Finance. We know that there’s a trust deficit in the government. Now we know there’s a financial deficit as well.

This morning the Financial Accountability Officer confirmed what our PC caucus has been saying all along: the government has a multi-billion-dollar hole in their budget forecast. He confirmed the government is using one-time money from the sale of assets to artificially balance the budget in an election year. But the FAO expects a $2.6-billion deficit that year, when the minister told Ontarians they balanced.

The FAO also told us that the only way they are going to balance after that is to raise taxes again or cut services further. Through you, I ask the minister: Are they raising taxes again, or can we expect more cuts to front-line services?

Hon. Charles Sousa: I’d like to thank the FAO for his report. I hope he recovers soon; as we all know, he’s on medical leave. But let me start by saying, yet again, that we’re committed to balancing the budget by 2017-18 and again the year after that, Mr. Speaker. We are doing so by controlling our spending and by stimulating economic growth in some of the strategic investments that we made. The FAO himself has stated Ontario’s economy posted strong, real GDP growth—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): It’s very difficult to move forward when members on the same side as the answer being put are engaged in heckling back and forth, so let’s just stop, please.

Hon. Charles Sousa: They don’t want to hear what exactly has happened. What has happened is that we’ve beaten our target seven years in a row, Mr. Speaker. What has happened is that because of our strategic investments, we have outpaced the G7—the United States and every other country in the jurisdiction, as well—and by so doing, we are lowering unemployment and growing our economy.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Back to the minister: Well, the numbers are wrong. We’ve been telling this government the numbers are wrong and now the FAO confirmed that today. The FAO said, “Growth in business investment has been disappointing over the last four years.” Well, that’s no wonder, Speaker, given this government has raised taxes by more than 20% in the last five years.

The FAO also confirmed that debt levels will continue to skyrocket another $64 billion, to a record $370 billion. Under this government, Ontario is now both the most indebted, yet the most taxed, province in Canada.

It’s clear their repeated pattern of waste, mismanagement and scandal has come home to roost, Speaker. I ask the minister, through you: Will the fall economic statement recognize the fiscal risks revealed by the FAO and will he update his false projections in this budget?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Mr. Speaker, the fall economic statement will indeed talk about the challenges faced by all countries and jurisdictions around the world, and recognize the leadership that Ontario has taken to ensure that we come to balance by 2017-18 and thereafter. The FAO states that Ontario’s economy “posted strong real GDP growth over the second half of 2015 and into the first quarter of 2016.” He also said that he expects that because of the strategic investments that we’re making, a boost to growth will occur in the third quarter.

Mr. Speaker, what has actually happened? Merchandise exports have increased by 10% in the province of Ontario. Wholesale trade has been up by 7%. Retail sales are up by 6% and manufacturing sales were up by 7%.

We recognize the challenges. We’re controlling, and being disciplined in, our spending. We are investing in our future, in our growth, to grow the economy and come to balance as we said we would. We’ve exceeded and surpassed our targets every year for the last seven years.

By-election in Sudbury

M me France Gélinas: Ma question est pour la première minister. On Tuesday, Pat Sorbara was charged under the Election Act with allegedly bribing the current Minister of Energy. The charge, implicating the Minister of Energy, has shaken the trust of the good people of Sudbury. If the Premier agrees that trust is critical to our electoral system, will she ask the minister to resign from her cabinet?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, as I have said on numerous occasions before in this question period, this matter is before the courts. The only appropriate place for this matter to be dealt with is in the court of law. I urge all members to respect that very important principle.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

M me France Gélinas: Formal charges have been laid by the OPP against Ms. Sorbara that name Glenn Thibeault. We can all read it. This is about the good people of Sudbury being able to trust their elected representative. When an MPP is implicated—his name—in a bribery charge, trust in that MPP is obviously thrown into question.

Will the Premier do the right thing by the good people of Sudbury and ask the Minister of Energy to resign his cabinet position?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: The Minister of Energy, the member from Sudbury, is an honourable man. He has, in his entire life, served his community. He has served—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Finish, please.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, the member serves his family and his community with utmost integrity. These allegations have nothing to do with the member and his responsibilities as the Minister of Energy.

As I’ve said before, this matter is before the courts. The only appropriate place for it to be tried is in a court of law.

Road safety

Mr. John Fraser: My question is for the Minister of Transportation. Despite the recent warm weather we’ve seen over the last few days, winter is coming. That means we are quickly approaching shorter days and more hours of darkness.

Safety on our roads is always a priority, but it’s clear that when there are more hours of darkness, we need to take more care on our roads. We know that certain road users, specifically cyclists and pedestrians, are at higher risk on our roads.

Mr. Speaker, in my riding of Ottawa South, I just learned there was a cyclist struck this morning. Every few days, I hear of a pedestrian or cyclist being struck. Road safety is of great concern to all members of this House and for those people they represent.

Mr. Speaker, I’m particularly interested to hear about what the government is doing with pedestrians in mind. Could the minister please inform this House what we are doing in this regard?

Hon. Steven Del Duca: I want to begin, of course, by thanking the member from Ottawa South for the question and for his advocacy on this issue.

Unfortunately, last evening—and over the course of the last number of weeks a number of pedestrians and other road users like cyclists have been hit by vehicles in cities like Toronto and in others across the province. Of course, this is extremely unfortunate for all of us to hear, but it does go to show that we all have a collective responsibility both to do more and to do better.

With darker conditions—and in this case, recently, rainy conditions as well—there is an increased risk for collisions.

I should also point out that this coming weekend, the clocks are changing. It’s particularly at this time of year that issues relating to road safety are of particular importance.

I purposely said “collisions” and not “accidents.” That’s because many of the collisions that we’re discussing on our roadways are, in fact, preventable. In my follow-up answer, I’ll talk a little bit more about a promotional campaign that’s under way to shed light on this issue.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. John Fraser: I thank the minister for that answer. I’m glad that he used the word “collisions,” because many of these things are preventable. I’m glad the ministry is working so closely with their road safety partners.

I know that in the city of Ottawa, the Ottawa police and their STEP program are focusing right now on red-light and stop-sign runners. I want to congratulate them for their work.

As the minister noted in his answer, we’re all going to be returning to our ridings next week, something I’m sure we’re all looking forward to. I know that this issue is of top priority to the people that we represent: safety on roads and safety, especially in my riding, of children going to school. I heard of one yesterday being struck by a vehicle.

This is of great concern to us all. I’d like to ask the minister again to further elaborate on what we’re doing for pedestrian safety.

Hon. Steven Del Duca: Again, I thank the member for the follow-up question.

Just this past Wednesday, I was very happy to participate, alongside a number of our road safety partners, at a pedestrian safety event. This particular campaign’s slogan is “Be Alert, Be Seen.” I think this is a critical message for all of our road users, particularly those that are pedestrians or are cycling. I want to encourage all members of the House to help spread the word around this particular campaign.

Over the years, our government has increased penalties for drivers by both introducing and increasing demerit points for violations at high-risk, high-impact locations on our roads. Everyone here will know that in June of 2015, Bill 31 passed this Legislature with all-party support. This important piece of legislation requires drivers, for example, to yield the whole roadway to pedestrians at school crossings and pedestrian crossovers. It also provides municipalities with the option to request crossing devices on low-speed, low-volume roads.

Our work is not done. The Ministry of Transportation will continue to work with road partners to make sure that we get it right.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Raymond Sung Joon Cho: We know Gerry Lougheed Jr. believes he had the ability to offer “appointments, jobs, whatever” to candidates in Sudbury. But what we don’t know is: Who ordered the Premier’s deputy chief of staff and top Liberal fundraiser to offer Andrew Olivier and the current Minister of Energy an alleged bribe?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I would ask of the member opposite—I think he knows very well exactly what the rules in this House are and that this is a matter that is before the courts, and it’s highly inappropriate for him to ask that question or for anyone to ask those questions.

Mr. Paul Miller: Bob and weave; bob and weave.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Hamilton East–Stoney Creek.

Supplementary? The member from Whitby–Oshawa.

Mr. Lorne Coe: To the Premier: We know that just one day before Gerry Lougheed offered Mr. Olivier “appointments, jobs, whatever,” Pat Sorbara called the deputy director of HR in the Premier’s office of public appointments and human resources on December 10. But what we don’t know is: Who ordered the Premier’s deputy chief of staff and top Liberal fundraiser to offer Andrew Olivier and the current Minister of Energy an alleged bribe?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, again, these are allegations that have not been proven in the court. The court will decide the veracity of these allegations. In the meantime, we have a very important principle; that is, the presumption of innocence. I ask and I expect all members will respect that very important principle. It would be highly inappropriate for us to answer any questions relating to this matter in the House, given that the matter is before the courts.

By-election in Sudbury

Ms. Catherine Fife: My question is to the Attorney General. It’s very clear in the Election Act that directly or indirectly giving or procuring an inducement to get someone to run is in contravention of the Election Act. We learned yesterday that one of Pat Sorbara’s charges has to do with allegedly inducing the Minister of Energy.

These charges are an issue of public trust and confidence in this government. Does the Attorney General think that the same rules should apply to anyone who accepts a position or a benefit to run for office?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: The member is asking a question in light of an allegation that is contained in the charges that were laid—number one. Number two, she’s asking for my legal

interpretation. I’m not a legal expert in the matters of the Election Act. Number three, I would rely on the courts to determine and interpret that particular provision, and also as it relates to the allegations. That is exactly why it is highly inappropriate for these matters to be discussed in this House. I urge all members to let the courts do their job and not litigate this matter in the House.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Catherine Fife: Again to the Attorney General: I do find it interesting that a government under the shadow of scandal, dealing with alleged bribery, thinks that they can unilaterally change or interpret election laws in Ontario.

Yesterday, our deputy leader filed a complaint with Elections Ontario asking the Chief Electoral Officer to investigate the Minister of Energy. The Minister of Energy is on the record as saying, “The Premier and I had a conversation about roles within government.” The role of a backbencher? The role of a minister? We don’t know. But we do want to know.

In the opinion of the Attorney General, why does the Premier think that the rules only apply to some people and not all?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: This matter is very clear. There are allegations that are made against two individuals who do not serve in the House. The allegations do not relate to any responsibility of the Minister of Energy. Asking any such question, in my view, is not relevant. Any allegations that are to be dealt with in this House ought to be dealt with in a court of law.

This is not the place for the member opposite to seek my legal

interpretation on a particular provision of law, or for me to offer those

interpretations. That’s exactly the role of our courts. I trust our judiciary, and I urge all members to leave this matter before the courts.

Ontario Trillium Foundation

Mrs. Cristina Martins: My question this morning is to the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Sport. I know that members of this House value the important work that the Ontario Trillium Foundation does to build healthy and vibrant communities across Ontario.

Last week, Minister McMahon was in Brampton to announce the most recent round of grants that have been approved by the Trillium Foundation. As part of this announcement, the minister also spoke to a broader province-wide commitment to support grant recipients across Ontario.

In my own riding of Davenport, the Centre for Mindfulness Studies and Native Women in the Arts received over $50,000 through Trillium to help people who are marginalized as they take on leadership roles and improve community life. These programs have an impact on the lives of over 180 people in the community.

Mr. Speaker, through you, can the minister please inform this House about this most recent round of grants and the important impact that this round of Trillium Foundation grants will have?

Hon. Eleanor McMahon: I’m pleased to rise and answer the member’s questions about the Ontario Trillium Foundation, and I want to thank her for the important advocacy work that she does in her community on behalf of the not-for-profit sector. It’s so important.

I greatly value the important work that Trillium does right across our province. It’s important that we acknowledge it and that our government remain supportive of the Trillium Foundation. It is one of Canada’s leading charitable grant-making foundations, and it helps us build strong and healthy communities.

I was pleased to visit the Brampton Multicultural Community Centre last week to announce that the Trillium Foundation will be investing $31.6 million through 152 grants right across Ontario, bringing positive change to the people of Brampton, the member’s riding as well, and nearly 500,000 Ontarians in every corner of our province.

Speaking to members of this House, I’m already hearing about the positive impact that this investment will have, and I’m excited to announce that we’re going to continue to support the Ontario Trillium Foundation. I look forward to expanding on my answer in the supplementary.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mrs. Cristina Martins: I want to thank the minister for this. It is fantastic to hear how wide-reaching and helpful the Trillium Foundation has been to my community of Davenport and to communities all across this province.

I also want to acknowledge the importance of the hundreds of dedicated and knowledgeable volunteers who make up grant review teams across the province. Each year, more than 3,000 applications are reviewed by grant review teams who act as local eyes and ears for the Trillium Foundation. They play a vital role in our province’s not-for-profit sector. It’s important that the Trillium Foundation have processes in place to ensure that the best applications ultimately receive funding.

I understand that the Trillium Foundation moved forward with a plan last week to improve customer service to applicants across Ontario. Can the minister please speak to this development and the role it will have on the Trillium Foundation’s granting process?

Hon. Eleanor McMahon: Thank you to the member. Our government greatly values the work that the Ontario Trillium Foundation does to help applicants right across our province, and that’s why I’m pleased that the foundation is moving forward with a number of changes that will improve customer service.

Specifically, the Trillium Foundation is moving to introduce a single application deadline for each of its funding programs. This brings the foundation in line with industry best practices adopted by other granting organizations such as the Ontario Media Development Corp. and the Ontario Arts Council. Ultimately, these steps are about modernization and improving customer service.

As a former grant recipient, I very much appreciated the support that I got from Trillium and I applaud their board for taking these additional steps to improve service delivery. As we move forward toward our province’s 150th anniversary, I look forward to working with Trillium to support communities across Ontario and to continuing to make a difference in the lives of all Ontarians.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: My question is to the Premier. We know that Gerry Lougheed Jr. told Andrew Olivier that he was calling “on behalf of the Premier.” But what we don’t know is who ordered the Premier’s deputy chief of staff and a top Liberal fundraiser to offer Andrew Olivier and the current Minister of Energy an alleged bribe. Speaker, through you to the Premier, who gave the order?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, this question has been asked many times, and just because it’s being asked in a repeated manner does not mean that the answer changes. The Premier has been very open and transparent to Ontarians, to the media and to this Legislature and has answered many questions.

Now we are at a stage, Speaker, as you are well aware and as the members in this House are well aware, where charges have been laid. It would be highly inappropriate for this matter to be dealt with in this House. It would be highly inappropriate to answer any questions in this House as it relates to the allegations. The only appropriate place is in a court of law, and I’d ask all members to respect that very important principle.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary? The member from Thornhill.

Mrs. Gila Martow: My question is to the Premier. We know that Pat Sorbara told Andrew Olivier, “So you’re being asked ... to make the sacrifice this time, and that also can go a long way, in terms of opening up options ... like in terms of being part of a party, right?”

But what we don’t know, Mr. Speaker, is who ordered the Premier’s deputy chief of staff and a top Liberal fundraiser to offer Andrew Olivier and the current Minister of Energy an alleged bribe.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Again, Speaker, you can tell by the nature of questions that these are questions that relate directly to the allegations that are before the courts. As I’ve stated earlier, it would be highly inappropriate to answer any questions on an issue that is before the courts.

I would urge all members to respect a very important rule that is outlined in our standing orders, the rule around sub judice, which instructs us not to debate issues, not to discuss issues, that are before any court or tribunal. This matter clearly falls under that rule. So I ask all members, Speaker, to respect your words yesterday. We will not be answering any questions that are before the courts.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Peter Tabuns: My question is to the Minister of Energy. Given his role in the Premier’s cabinet as Minister of Energy and the recent news about being named in an alleged scandal, Ontarians have questions about whether or not he will be able to perform his job duties as a cabinet minister. Ontarians want to know: Has the minister offered his resignation to the Premier?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: I’m very pleased to rise and speak to this—

Applause.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Thank you.

Mr. Speaker, no, I have not. Absolutely all of these are allegations. I stand with integrity and work for the people of Sudbury, which I was elected to do. I’m very proud to be part of a government that is working for the people of Ontario each and every day. This is all allegations—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Nepean–Carleton will withdraw.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): That’s your second time.

Finish, please.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Now that charges are laid in this case, it is our shared responsibility to allow this matter to be handled in the court of law under the presumption of innocence.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Back to the Minister of Energy: People have a right to raise questions about the minister’s ability to do his job while being named in an alleged scandal. Why does the Minister of Energy believe he will be able to focus on and complete his ministerial duties under the shadow of scandal? Will he offer his resignation to the Premier?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister of Energy.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I think we heard from the minister on how he is an honourable individual who works extremely hard and serves his community, the people of Ontario and this government with full integrity. There are no allegations in relation to the member. The allegations do not involve whatsoever his responsibilities as a minister, and there are no charges that are laid against the member as well.

He has fully co-operated in all investigations. There are now charges laid against two individuals who do not serve in the House. This matter is before the courts. We should respect their jurisdiction. I ask all members to let the court do its job.

Transfer payments

Ms. Daiene Vernile: My question is for the President of the Treasury Board. Each year for the past seven years, our government has beaten the deficit reduction target put forth in the budget. This past year was no different. The province of Ontario beat its deficit target by $3.5 billion—

Mr. Paul Miller: How about the debt? Talk about the debt.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Hamilton East–Stoney Creek, second time.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Durham.

Finish, please.

Ms. Daiene Vernile: I know that Ontario is on track to balancing the budget for 2017-18. That will please the heckling member to hear that.

Much of this success is due to innovative cross-government transformation projects designed to save money while also improving outcomes for the people of Ontario, projects like the Transfer Payment Administration Modernization, or TPAM.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Prince Edward–Hastings, second time.

Ms. Daiene Vernile: Could the President of the Treasury Board please tell us about TPAM? Tell us how this project is helping the government.

Hon. Liz Sandals: Thank you to the member for Kitchener Centre for her advocacy on government modernization.

The Transfer Payment Administration Modernization project, or TPAM for short, is intended to streamline and modernize the government’s approach to the management of transfer payments. Ontario makes transfer payments to more than 18,000 different organizations—to hospitals, school boards, municipalities, non-profits and many more. Approximately 82% of all government expenditures are transfer payments, funds which are actually flowed through more than 20,000 different legal agreements and supported by 20 different IT applications.

Treasury Board’s TPAM project will reduce administrative burden for both government and transfer payment recipients while improving our ability to make evidence-based funding decisions.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Daiene Vernile: The President of the Treasury Board just provided us with an excellent introduction to what TPAM is and how it’s driving efficiencies.

I know first-hand the impact of transfer payments. Since 2003, our government has provided Waterloo region $63 million in funding for affordable housing, assisting in the creation and repair of over 1,400 affordable units and preventing over 1,800 evictions.

Last year, our government provided $1 billion in transfer payments to the Waterloo Wellington Local Health Integration Network, which supports 34,000 virtual care visits in Waterloo Wellington in 2015-16, bringing care close to home through video conferencing for many people who have difficulty travelling to see their doctor.

Would the President of the Treasury Board please tell us what is next for the TPAM project?

Hon. Liz Sandals: As the member knows, one of our goals through TPAM is to develop a one-window portal where a given transfer recipient need only input their information once. That means that organizations that receive multiple transfer payments from multiple ministries often will not have to enter and enter and enter their information multiple times. They would only need to upload one copy of various important documents, instead of re-entering it for each application.

As a starting point, the Treasury Board Secretariat is focusing on creating a common registration system to support that process for all time-limited and project-based transfer payments managed through Grants Ontario. Over the next two years, we’ll add more transfer payment systems to the common registration system.

This is just one of a number of projects that are modernizing our transfer payment system, saving money and reducing unnecessary burden for our transfer payment partners.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Rick Nicholls: To the Premier: We know that Pat Sorbara told Andrew Olivier: “If there were other things that you’re particularly interested in that is within her realm to make you part of, then she is more than prepared to do that.”

Speaker, we’re not getting any answer as to who ordered the Premier’s deputy chief of staff and top Liberal fundraiser to offer Andrew Olivier and the current Minister of Energy an alleged bribe.

So, Mr. Speaker, to the Premier: Will you invite your Minister of Energy to step aside until this issue is resolved?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Again, I’ve been very open with this Legislature, with the media and with the public about the allegations related to the Sudbury by-election, over and over again. I have answered questions. If you look at the Hansard from that time, you can see the number of questions that I answered.

Now that charges are laid, it’s our responsibility to understand that this matter is before the court, and it’s before the court under a presumption of innocence. We’re going to continue to co-operate with any independent investigation. But, as I said in 2015, if charges were laid, then Pat Sorbara would step aside. That has happened, and now the matter is entirely before the courts.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary? The member from Prince Edward–Hastings.

Mr. Todd Smith: Back to the Premier. We know that Pat Sorbara had a discussion with Andrew Olivier about a role. As a matter of fact, I was just listening to the video before coming down here. It’s on Andrew Olivier’s YouTube. Anyone can hear it, and they can see what kind of backroom deals and shenanigans these guys have been up to for themselves.

Pat Sorbara says, “Whether it’s a full-time or a part-time job in a constit office, whether it is appointments, supports or commissions”—was up for discussion.

But what we don’t know is: Who over there ordered the Premier’s deputy chief of staff and a top Liberal fundraiser to offer Andrew Olivier and the current Minister of Energy a bribe?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Again, these are just allegations. They have not been proven in the courts. The fact that there are charges laid means that this matter has to be tried before a court, not in the Legislature.

Not to mention, I know the members opposite and all members of this House, as all Ontarians and Canadians, understand and respect the principle of presumption of innocence. In our system, everybody is presumed innocent until they are proven guilty. In this matter, the people who have been charged have not been found guilty. We owe it to them that we let this matter be dealt with in a court of law, in a neutral, impartial sphere.

That is how our system is designed, for very good reason. That is why we have a separation between our executive branch and our legislative branch, and we should respect that.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. John Vanthof: My question is to the Premier. As holders of elected office, we are responsible—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The chief government whip is warned.

Finish, please.

Mr. John Vanthof: As holders of public office, we are responsible for the public’s trust. I’m sure all of us, in our various offices, have always heard that the perception of conflict of interest is as damaging as the actual—if it exists—conflict of interest.

In this case, the perception of wrongdoing is as damaging to the actual public interest as if wrongdoing occurred. We don’t know if wrongdoing has occurred. That is for the courts to decide. But for the public trust it has also been the tradition, if there is a question of wrongdoing, for a person who holds public office to step aside while that investigation is conducted. As a minister of the crown, it is inherent to do that.

My question to the Premier is: Why haven’t you instructed that to happen?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I again thank the member opposite, who I have a lot of respect for, for the question. I was listening very carefully to his question, and I would say to him that there is no conflict of interest here. There is no actual or perceived conflict of interest.

The allegations do not deal with anything that is a responsibility of the minister as the Minister of Energy. The allegations, Speaker, are not towards him. The minister has not been charged with anything, so there is no conflict of interest—actual or perceived—whatsoever.

There are allegations against two individuals who do not sit in this House. Those allegations are before the court of law. The rules of this House are very clear: When there is a matter before the courts, it is best that it be dealt with in the courts, not in this Legislature. I know the member knows the rules, and I implore him to respect that.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. John Vanthof: Back to the Premier: It hasn’t been proven yet whether or not there is actual wrongdoing, and that’s not the point. The point is the public trust. There is precedent for this. There’s a long-standing parliamentary tradition of cabinet members standing aside when investigations take place, and it’s not just when they’re part of the investigation. When then-finance minister Greg Sorbara was named—named—in a search warrant in 2005—named, not charged—he stepped aside until the matter was dealt with. That was the honourable thing to do. That’s what an honourable minister does and that’s what an honourable Premier should make her minister do.

The Premier has the chance to do the right thing and ask her minister to resign while this investigation is going on. Will she do that?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Attorney General?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, to the member again: There is no investigation as it relates to the Minister of Energy. There are no charges against the Minister of Energy. I think that is a very important point that the member opposite is missing.

Yes, he can get emotional and yes, he can try to sully somebody’s honour—which, Speaker, is very much not in the tradition of this House. We respect every member of this House as an honourable member. I think of the member opposite who has posed this question as an honourable member, Speaker. It is highly inappropriate. I know he’s above that, to cast into disrepute any member of this House—especially since they are under no investigation. There have been no charges laid against them.

The charges, Speaker, have been laid against two individuals who are not members of this House. They are not in the employ of the government of Ontario. We should respect the rules. We should respect the traditions. We should respect the principle of the presumption of innocence.

International trade

Mr. Peter Z. Milczyn: My question is for the Minister of International Trade.

It’s been a very busy fall for international trade. In October, the minister visited New York City to discuss water technology and innovation, and the federal government successfully signed the Canada-European Union trade agreement.

This month, the minister will be visiting India on an agri-food trade mission—and we know how important the agri-food sector is to this province—and the Premier will be conducting a trade mission to Japan and to Korea.

I know that Ontario is going to see a lot of economic growth and job creation from these missions. In particular, I was proud to hear of the work the minister did in October in China to assist a phenomenal agency, Tourism Toronto. Could the minister please inform the House of his recent trip to China and the impacts it will have for Ontario?

Hon. Michael Chan: I want to thank the honourable member from Etobicoke–Lakeshore. Speaker, the member—

Applause.

Hon. Michael Chan: Oh, keep doing it, please.

The member is correct in the assessment of Tourism Toronto. I’m sure that the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Sport would also agree.

In October, I accompanied Tourism Toronto to China as they bid on and won the privilege of hosting what will be the largest travel delegation in Canadian history. Speaker, 6,000 of Nu Skin’s most elite salespeople will visit Toronto in 2018. The delegation is expected to generate over $8 million in tourist spending during their visit. The visit will clearly provide great benefits to Toronto’s economy. I would like to congratulate Tourism Toronto on this fantastic achievemen