Manitoba Hansard — 20 March 1975 (Sitting 19, 30th Legislature, 2nd Session)

30-2-19

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Thursday, March 20, 1975 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 467 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to my gallery, where we have 12 guests who are retired railway supervisors from the Mechanical Department of the Canadian National Railway. These gentlemen have made it a point to meet regularly every month and come for an annual visit to the Legislature. They are the guests of the Honourable Minister of Labour, the Member for Transcona.

We also have 45 students, Grade 11 standing, of the Churchill High School, under the direction of Mr. Sabeski and Mr. McKenzie. This school is located in the constituency of the H onourable Member for Osborne, the Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services. And we have 17 students of Grade 9 standing of the Andrew Mynarski School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Bonin. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Inkster, the Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management. And we have 50 students of Grade 6 standing of the Yellow Quill School.

These students are under the direction of Mrs. Cuthbert and Mrs. Wright. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie .• On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legislative Assembly, I welcome you here this afternoon. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. The Honourable Member for Radisson. TABLING OF REPORTS MR. HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the first report of the Standing Committee on Economic Development. MR.

CLERK: Your Standing Committee to Economic Development met for organization on Thursday, March 20, 1975, and appointed Mr. Shafransky as Chairman. In accordanc e with the Rules of the House, the quorum of the Committee was set at seven (7) members. Having received all information requested by any member from the Chairman, Mr. Albert Koffman, the Annual Report of Manitoba Mineral Resources Ltd. for the period April 1, 1973, to March 31, 1974, was accepted by the Committee. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. SHAFRANSKY: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Flin Flon that the report of the Committee be received . MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Public Works. HON. RUSSELL DOERN (Minister of Public Works) (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report of the Land Value Appraisal Commission for 1973-74. And for the convenience of members I would also like to submit the 1975 Government Telephone Directory. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education)(Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table the Annual Report for the year 1973-74 of the Department of Education, and the Annual Financial Report of the Board of Governors of the University of Manitoba to the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council for the year ended March 31, 1974. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. RONALD McBRYDE (Minister of Northern Affairs) (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, would like to table the Annual Report for Minago Contractors Limited for the year ended March 31, 1974. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills.

The Honourable Minister of Mines.

468 March 20, 1975 TABLING OF REPORTS HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q.C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Manage ment) (lnkster) on behalf of the Attorn ey-General, introduced Bill No. 14,

an Act to amend the Unsatisfied Judgment Fund Act. (Recommended by His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.) Also Bill No. 15,

an Act to amend The

Summary Convictions Act. MR. GREEN introduced Bill No. 16, The Metallic Minerals Royalty Act. (Recommended by His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor·.) ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER: Questions? The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR: SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q.C. (Leader of the Official Opposition) (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. I wonder if he can inform the House whether he and the Minister of Industry and Commerce met with the people involved in the consortium who are considering a pipeline from the Arctic Gas Lines through Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON.

EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, affirmative. Yes. MR. SPIVAK: Well, I wonder if the First Minister is in a position to indicate to the House whether consideration will be given to a pipeline that would come through Manitoba down to Winnipeg. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, clearly consideration will be given, consideration is already being given. The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition I'm sure has a pretty good comprehension as to what the structure of decision-making with respect to a project of this kind.

Insofar as the Province of Manitoba is concerned, we have indicated our interest all along, we met this morning by way of formal briefing and clearly this matter will be pursued. But I want to make the obvious even more obvious to the Leader of the Opposition, that the decision-making involved here is not provincial in terms of jurisdiction, it's quite national in scope. MR. SPIVAK: Yes. Well I wonder if the First Minister can inform the House whether the people that he met today confirmed with him that there is no study being undertaken of a pipeline to come through Manitoba to Winnipeg. MR.

SCHREYER: That would not be a correct assumption at all, Mr. Speaker. I don't believe there is any secret any longer about the fact that the alternatives are much more costly and therefore there would be no justification for any alternative other than a pipeline that follows the least cost alternative by several billions of dollars. MR. SPIVAK : Yes. I wonder if the First Minister can indicate whether at any time he or his government ever requested of the people involved that a study be undertaken to determine whether there was a feasibility of the pipeline coming through Manitoba to Winnipeg. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, the matter of the cost analysis was something which I was assured quite some time ago would be carried out in all of its various alternatives by those directly responsible, and I'm satisfied that this has and is being done. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable M<)mber for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the First Minister. I wonder if he can advise if the study group is still giving equal weight to the routes, one which comes through Manitoba and the other which goes across the Hudson Straits into Quebec. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, the only way I can answer in brief to the Honourable Member for Riel is to indicate to him that which is already a matter of public knowledge, I believe. That the alternatives as between east of the Bay and west of the Bay have a differential of something in the order of 1. 5 to two billion dollars, and therefore one assumes that the least cost alternative involving a substantially lesser cost will be the one that will be followed in the overall public interest. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, can I conclude from that that the 1. 5 billion advantage is on the west side of the Bay? --(Interjection)-- Billion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Affirmative, Mr. Speaker. I can only in this context relay what I believe to be the official and responsible figures and estimates from those in a position to

March 20, 1975 469 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ••... know, those that are in direct decision-making responsibility in this matter, that the cost differential is indeed in the order of 1. 5, 1. 7 billion dollars, lesser cost west of Hudson's Bay. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister of Agriculture. It is with respect to the Crocus Food plant proposed for Selkirk. Is it the intention of the government to have that plant manufacture anything other than a product that can be derived from whey?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Yes, Mr. Speaker, if the plant does proceed it will be involved in the processing of whole milk as well. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister inform the House as to whether or not the raw milk which will be diverted to the Crocus Plant will be diverted at the expense of present dairies and producers? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, that is a question I think that should be properly put after the decision is made. I don't anticipate a diversion program.

I think we have to work on the basis of the expansion of the dairy industry in Manitoba. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister inform the House as to whether or not there's been any type of a feasibility study carried out to ensure that there will be no loss of employment at present cheese plants and dairy plants in the province by this program? MR . USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I think for the benefit of the Member from Portage he should know that the main function of the plant is indeed to keep some plants viable that would other wise not be. MR.

SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I have further information that we have 15 students of second-year standing of the Brandon University in our gallery, from Brandon West or East, I'm not certain which constituency this university is in. Anyways I welcome them here this afternoon. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture.

Can he indicate to the House whether or not he has any indication of living up to the specific sections of the present Dairy Act which spells out certain responsibilities on the part of the government, before any further expansion of the processing aspect of the dairy industry takes place? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I would think that whatever the laws of the land provide for, that we must follow or we must change the law. MR. ENNS: A supplementary question then, Mr.

Speaker. l take it that the advisory board that is indicated, that shall be set up prior to this expansion, prior to any decision making, will in fact be set up, and the whole question of further expansion of the capacity of a dairy plant will be discussed in the public forum. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I think that the Member for Lakeside should know that what we are dealing with is an environmental problem in the building of that plant. . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. MR.

USKIW: ••. and whatever must be done to accommodate the facility that is now being discussed shall be done, whether it means an amendment to legislation or whether it means some obligation under existing legislation. I think we must take all of those things into account. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the same Minis ter of Agriculture. I wonder if the Minister could advise the House what the present proposed capacity of the Crocus Plant will be?

At the present time what are they proposing the hourly capacity of dried whey or dried powdered milk will be per hour? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I couldn't give him that specifically at this point in time. recall the figures used for the feasibility study, somewhere in the order of 185 million pounds

470 March 20, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR, USKIW cont'd) • • . . of whey. Now that's sort of from memory, Mr. Speaker. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, I don't know whether you said 180 million pounds of whey per what? MR. USKIW: Per year. MR . MINAKER: Per year. Thank you. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honour able Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management.

I wonder if the minister could advise the House if the land-use program for Crown owned lands mentioned in the 1974 report, whether this program has been completed, and is there a map available for the members of the House to have on the particular land-use of the Crown owned lands. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the report would have to speak for itself. With respect to responsibility in that area of the department, that it now rests with the Minister for Co operatives.

Just in response to your question,, that the minister now responsible in that area of department activities is the Minister for Co-operatives and lands and forests, etc. So he is here and I will let him take the question as notice or deal with it as he sees fit. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Co-operatives. HON. HARVEY BOSTROM (Minister of Co-operatives) (Rupertsland): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr.

Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture, and it pertains to the questions that have already been asked in regards to the dairy policy of this province. I'd like to ask the Minister if the Milk Control Board under his jurisdiction have given directions to the various dairy processing plants in the Province of Manitoba that they would be compelled to direct a percentage of their processing milk to other plants other than their own? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, the Member for Rock Lake should be aware that the milk once it leaves the farm gate is the property of the Producer's Marketing Board and they have the powers of direction. MR. EINARSON: Well, Mr. Speaker, then, do I understand from the answer the minister has given that if a dairy processing plant in any part of Manitoba is producing, or drawing in say 50, OOO pounds of milk a day, that the board have directed that plant to direct 20 percent of that volume to another plant, say, in Winnipeg? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I think that I should tell my honourable friend that one of the objectives of the restructuring of the dairy industry is to meet the daily demand for fresh milk on the part of consumers; unlike was the case in the past. And if that means from time to time a diversion of milk from one use towards another, and of course the consumption of whole fresh milk is the highest paying use, then I would think it's in the best wisdom of that board to allocate it accordingly. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Speaker, I direct another question to the Minister of Agriculture and ask him if any of the dairy processing plants in the Province of Manitoba have directed to him the attention of the very seriousness of this particular aspect of the dairy industry, as to their concern as to their viability of future continuation of their program - and it relates to the Crocus Food Plant that he is contemplating building at Selkirk? Have they brought to the attention of the Minister the seriousness of their particular business? MR. USKIW: Well,, I think, Mr.

Spe aker, that I would have to say that there have been some discussions with different people in the industry. No one has brought about any dramatic revelation as to the consequences to anyone if the province goes ahead with the build ing of the Crocus Plant. Because the main purpose of the plant is to alleviate an environ mental problem which, if it is not done, may result in the closing down of some cheese plants. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I have further questions. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member has had three questions.

The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge,

March 20, 1975 471 ORAL QUESTIONS l\ffi. LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to direct a question to the First Minister. Can the First Minister confirm whether he has received a letter from the Mayor of the City of Winnipeg requesting provincial sharing of the cost of a uniform pension plan for city employees in the City of Winnipeg, and has he yet returned a reply to the Mayor? l\ffi, SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. l\ffi, SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, such a letter has been received. It's been referred to the Ministry of Urban Affairs.

I believe that a reply has either been sent or is in process of being prepared. l\ffi, AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Can the First Minister confirm whether in fact a Task Force headed by the former Minister of Finance reported in 1971 that a uniform pension plan should be included as part of the unification of the City of Winnipeg? l\ffi, SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. l\ffi, SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I couldn't confirm offhand if there was such a Task Force recommendation, but lest there be any suggestion that such a recommendation would therefore presuppose some senior government funding of it, if that• s what my honourable friend is implying, I reject it. l\ffi, AXWO RTHY: I've a further supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Does the government consider its obligations under the City of Winnipeg to cover transitional cost in terms of developing a unified pension plan and to provide the moneys at least for that portion that was incurred as a result of the transition period in the new City of Winnipeg? l\ffi, SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, again there is an assumption there which takes a good deal for granted.

Whether or not the matter of pension funding is a transitional cost or whether it is a cost that relates more to the concept of equal pay for equal work within the bosom of one urban community, those are two very different assumptions. l\ffi, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. l\ffi, J, DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Labour. I wonder if the Minister of Labour could tell the House if it is the intention of the government or the Minister of Labour to take a positive position in regard to the grain tie-up because of strikes in Vancouver.

Is it the intention of the government to take a positive vocal position in regard to the tie-up at Vancouver as it relates to Manitobans? l\ffi, SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Arthur. l\ffi, WATT: Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Ag riculture then, if the Government of Manitoba now have changed positions that they took in 1969 that a tie-up in Vancouver did not affect Manitoba? l\ffi, SPEAKER: Question please. l\ffi, WATT: The question is ..• All right, Mr. Speaker. I'm asking the question to the Minister of Agriculture.

Is it the position now of the socialists on that side of the House, who in 1969 said that we had no reason for • . • l\ffi. SPEAKER: Question please. l\ffi. WATT: ••. interferring with a tie-up in Vancouver. The question is, have you changed your position? l\ffi, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. l\ffi. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I think that it's reasonable to suggest, or to inform my honourable friend that I did not mind that he took a trip out of the province in 1969.

The only question at that time was that if he wanted to do it and he made it a holiday, that that was quite proper and it should be put in that context. l\ffi, WATT: I never heard the report from Rome. l\ffi. SPEAKER: Question please. l\ffi, WATT: I ask the Minister now if he agrees with his counterpart, the socialist, the Honourable Mr. Lang, when he stated the night before last that we had not significantly lost our world trade because of the strike and the tie-up in Vancouver, does he agree with his counterpart, the socialist from Ottawa? l\ffi, USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I think everyone agrees that if there is a strike that there are problems that result from a strike and that it's not a happy situation. So if my honourable friend wants to know whether I am in favour of strikes, I will tell him no.

472 March 20, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Resources .. It's in relation to the Garrison Diversion project. Can he advise the House on the status of the environmental studies in Canada with regards to this project? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, that's a vague question. I know that there are various studies, I believe that we have made chem all public.

I will undertake to see to it that the studies that I have available to me are made available to the Member of the Opposition. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I did have a supplementary to it, and that was whether or not sufficient environmental studies had now been completed to allow the Manitoba Government and the Canadian Government to state with some definite scientific information what the impact of this project is likely to be. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I believe that that was so in the Fall of 1973.

And in the Fall of 1973, the Canadian Government as a result of being requested by the Manitoba Government, stated that the environmental studies then on hand produced by the United States themselves proved that the Garrison Diversion as then conceived would be a violation of the Boundary Waters Treaty. The Canadian Government did so and the United States Government in response sent a commitment that the treaty would not be violated. Mr.

Speaker, that then involves an argument as to what the word "pollution" means, what the violation encompasses, and I have no way of guaranteeing to my honourable friend that our position will be upheld. All I can suggest to them is that the best means possible have been taken to try to uphold the Canadian position. MR . CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I would then ask him, we conclude that there are no present studies being undertaken of an environmental nature; and secondly, if they are basing their position on the American studies, can he now advise whether this has been referred w the International Joint Commission, or who is presently negotiating on the matter. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I did not say that there is no Canadian input into the studies. --(Interjection)-- Well, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member can read my remarks in Hansard and see whether I am now contradicting myself.

I said that in 1973 on the basis of their studies alone, we were able to assert that there was a violation of the treaty. There has since been additional studies which I have tabled in this House, both from the American side and our analysis of these studies. But, Mr.

Speaker, it is always the most damaging evidence to be able to produce what the defendent or the opposing side themselves have said, and Canada has been able to rely on the United States' studies plus Canadian and Manitoba input with relation to those studies and data which we have collected on our own to make a position contrary to the Garrison Diversion being pursued in such a way as to affect Souris or Red River waters. The status of the matter at present is th at the Canadian Department of External Affairs appears to be or has suggested that there be a reference to the International Joint Commission. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed towards the Minister of Health and Social Development. Can the Minister tell the House whether his policy of ignoring the Manitoba Medical Association when formulating health policy is to continue in future? MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. I'm sure the honourable gentleman realizes that when he expresses opinion or prefaces a question with an opinion he's going to get an argument. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR . STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Public Works. Can the Minister tell the House, or indicate to the House whether the Minister or his department is currently involved in negotiating to purchase the Great West Life building? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR . DOERN: Only in the sense that it has been discussed for the past. several years .. MR . PATRICK: Do the present negotiations revolve around the province's co-operation for the Great West Life to relocate in another location?

March 20, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . DOERN: No, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, my quest.ion is to the Minister of Ed1.1cation, Colleges and ·university of Manitoba Affairs. Have negotiatio:is broken off at the University of Manitoba? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is well aware that the government is not involved in any negotiations on behalf of the University of Manitoba, Therefore, ask the university. 473 MR , SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. fu view of the si.tuation and its effect on possible exams, can the Minister advise the House whether he is keeping himself abreast of the situation on the campus? MR . HANUSCHAK: I'm not sure, Mr. Speaker, what particular situation the honourable member is referring to. MR . SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is the Minister aware of his department? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR . HANUSCHAK: Very much so, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. I'm sorry. MR . J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I thank you.

I have a question for, I guess the Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. I wonder if the Honourable Minister can advise the House of the policy of the government. Is it to subsidize or offer financial assistance to any or all provincial or municipal or privately owned parks in the province? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister for Urban Affairs) (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, parks normally fall under the Department of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs.

If the question is with regard i;o the Assiniboine Park and zoo in Winnipeg, then I must inform the House as they already know, that discussi.ons have been held with Winnipeg, because Assiniboine Park and zoo is provincial in nature, it's very unique, it's the only botanical gardens in the province, and the province did undertake to lease the Assiniboine Park zoo and ':lave the City maintain it for them under an agreement. That has not yet been promulgated or finalized. And if that• s the question, it relates to this one particular iss•.ie. MR . McKENZIE: A supplementary question then.

Can I assume from the Honourable Minister's remarks that the privately owned parks or the privately owned zoos are not included in that policy? MR . MILLER: The member is 100 percent correct. MR . McKENZIE: A supplementary question to the Honourable Minister, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if he can advise the House if the terms of reference include the establishment of fees for the people that like to utilize the zoos or the parks in this province. MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker, there are no admission fees to the Assiniboine Park and zoo lli""ld there will not be any admission fees to Assiniboine Park and :�oo. MR .

SPEAKER: The Ho.nourable Member for Rock Lake. MR . EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I direct a q..iestion to the Minister of Agriculture. It pertains to the Horned Cattle Trust Fund. I would like to ask him if he was in consultation with the beef producers of this province before the decision which he did to make the allocation of that fund. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR . USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I think I answered l:hat question about a week ago. I believe the question was put by the Member for Lakeside. MR . EINARSON: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to ask a second q:iestion and then ask the Minister, could he indicate to this House on whose advice did he receive before making that decision ? MR . USKIW: Well again, to help my honourable friend, I want him to know that we did :1ot allocate the funds to this day, we are awaiting a reply from the various interested parties as to how we might spend chose dollars. MR . SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Fort Rouge.

474 March 20, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Health and Social Development. Can the Minister indicate whether acupuncture treatment is presently considered under the Manitoba Health Care Insurance program? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (Minister of Health and Social Development) (St. Boniface): No, Mr. Speaker. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Minister indicate whether such acupuncture treatment has been considered in the past either by the Department of Health and Social Development for social assistant recipients or by the Manitoba Health Commission? MR. DESJARDINS: No, Mr. Speaker, neither in any other provinces in Canada. MR. AXWORTHY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I hav:e a further supplementary. Can the Minister indicate whether he is presently planning to consider such treatment being . considered under the Plan, or are there any review committees set up to examine its feasibility, medical review committees in particular. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, after being informed by the National Minister, all the Provincial Ministers of Health agreed that this would not be considered at this time in any province in Cana da. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I want to direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Natur.al Resources. It is with regards to the Garrison project. I wonder if he could advise what the position - I would gather in his previous answer that the Department of External Affairs of Canada has recommended that it be referred to the IJC.

Can he advise the House what the position of the authorities in the United States is on this matter? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, my impression is that they would agree to a reference. I also am of the impression that the two parties have not agreed as to what the reference would state, but that they, tentatively both the United States and Canada agreed to some sort of reference. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister advise whether the Bureau of Reclamation in the United States has agreed with the other federal departments of the United States for this referral? MR.

GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I believe that similar to the Cana dian situation, that ultimately the position that is taken is taken by the State Department, as is the Canadian position determined by the Department of External Affairs. And I do not believe that all of the other agencies then second guess and fight with the State Department so as to undermine the State Department 's position vis-a-vis the reference. I would expect a similar procedure to be adopted in this country. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources and Environmental Management relating to Garrison. I wonder if he can indicate whether the Provincial Government has hired any consultants, or retained any consultants to assist in evaluation of the environmental impact that will take place if the diversion is completed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, both Canada and Manitoba have expertise in the area. I cannot suggest that we have hired outside consultants, I cannot suggest that we have.

If I had it my way, we would hire the expertise that exist within the department and not spend money on outside consultants. MR. SPIVAK: Again I ask the question of the Minister. Is the Province of Manitoba relying entirely on its own in-House expertise with respect to this matter? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I am not certain, but I've already indicated that the province and Canadian authorities both are relying on expertise. I would hope that the expertise is in-House, I would prefer it that way. I am not certain it is that way. But my understanding, Mr.

Speaker, with regard to outside consultants as the honourable member full well knows, is that when you hire a consulting firm, their general attitude is to then hire your staff to work for them and then charge you for it. We would prefer that that not take place.

March 20, 1975 475 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, since the Minister's not very sure himself, I wonder if he could report back . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. I again caution all members that if they're going to exp ress opinions prefacing a question, it will be ruled out of order whethe r the question is valid or not. I think that if the members can't adhe re to the rules that they have developed over many many years, then we'll just have to revise the rules. But in the meantime we'll have to abide by the ones that we have. Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR.

WATT: A further question in regard to the Garrison Dam, I direct to the Honour able Minister. I would like to ask him, are the expertise involved in the Qu'Appelle Water shed Commission, which he indicated the other day was involved also in the Souris or the Mouse Valley Watershed which is directly connected with the Ga rrison Dam proposal? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speak er, I cannot confirm that the Qu'Appelle -Souris study directly relates to the Garrison Dive rsion, although ce rtainly there is at least locational reference.

But if the honourable member asked me if there are expertise associated with these studies, yes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. WATT: A further question then. I ask the Minister, did he not reply to me the other day that the Comm ission on the Qu'Appelle Watershed was directly connected with the Souris, and the Souris is directly connected with the Garrison Dam project? MR. GREEN: I cannot recall whether that specific question or that specific answer was given. But I am ce rtain, Mr.

Speaker, that I would not have said, because it is not my opinion and there would be absolutely no reason for me to give an opinion on this question which was not exactly so nor on any othe r question, that the Sou ris-Qu'Appelle study is directly related to the implications of the Garrison Diversion. I could not have said that. And if I did, Mr. Speaker, I'll be very surprised, and if the honourable member will produce it for me I will have to say tha t I erred very badly. --(Interjection)-- Well then, show it to me. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable House Leader.

ORDERS OF THE DAY - BILL NO. 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to proceed to Bill No. 7 please. MR. SPE AKER: Very well. Proposed Motion of the Honourable First Minister. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON (Gladstone): Mr. Speaker, I adjourned this Bill fo r my Leader the Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 7 is an Interim Supply Bill for $250 million.

When many of us entered the Legislature for the first time in 1966 we were faced with a budget for the pe riod of 1966-67 which in total was just a shade higher than the$ 250 million that we are being asked to approve as an interim budget or 25 percent of the total budget that we will be dealing with in the Estimates. And this just, Mr. Speaker, indicates how much the provincial budget has grown and how more formidable the workload is for the Members of the Legislature to be able to supe rvise the program of public spending and to understand the very involved way within our economic life that government • MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. MR. SPIVAK: ... has proceeded in the la st period of time. Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that in the last few weeks two issues have really become the issues that are the topics of conversation of the public at large. They are of course inflation, and the fact that it is not abating, while the forces of recession are gathering st rength; and the second is th e atmosphe re of constant and growing labour unrest and demands for higher and higher wages. And along with this, Mr. Speake r, is the growing concern of the taxpayer for the increasing cost of government that the taxpayer has to bear.

Almost daily different labour groups are attempting to fight the ravages of inflation by demanding higher salaries and wages. Mr. Speaker, these demands when met may ease

476 March 20, 1975 BILL NO. 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ..... their burden somewhat for themselves as a select group within our society, but in the long run I suggest it only serves to fuel the fires of inflation for everyone. Mr. Speaker, this phenomena is not entirely new. There has probably never been a point in our lifetimes when there weren't a great many people who were concerned about the rising cost of living.

But what is new and what is alarming is that matters appear to be deteriorating and that no one, management labour or government seems capable of dealing with the problems, and indeed that in some cases each may be doing things to make matters worse. In the case of governments, Mr. Speaker, and I talk of all governments, it's not enough to wait until the problems land with a crash at the doorstep as in the case of the recent dilemma with the Manitoba nurses. Instead, the government must take the initiative to seek out a solution; for if the government does not, Mr. Speaker, who indeed will? Mr.

Speaker, we are at a time when the government must speak with one voice. You can't have some members of the Cabinet saying, "We are just catching up, ".and others saying to labour, "You can't have what you want". Two weeks ago in the Throne Speech Debate I drew to the attention the massive increase in public spending by the Provincial Government. That increase has been rein - forced by the Estimates which have been tabled with us this week - re.ally at the end of last week.

The Premier in his speech during the Throne Speech Debate replied to me by drawing attention to the fact that all governments in Canada are spending vastly increased amounts. Now, he's right, but he's also missing the point. Mr. Speaker, it is precisely because all governments are continuing to spend wantonly, that there is no coming to grips with inflation nor with the labour unrest that inflation has helped to create. To say that Manitoba is only doing what other provinces and the Federal Government are doing is not an answer. Mr. Speaker, it is an excuse.

We cannot be responsible for what other governments do or don't do; but we can or should try to be responsible for what the Government of Manitoba does or does not do. Now, in the speech of a few days ago the Premier said that there was a kind of lunacy rapport abroad in this country over inflation, and I agree with him. I think he's right in that. But I go further in saying that I believe that the public patience with inflation and with strikes as well, Mr. Speaker, legal and illegal, private sector or public, is wearing very very thin. And I come back, Mr. Speaker, to my earlier point.

What is government - and I mean the present government, not the Government of Canada, not the Government of Ontario, not the Government of Alberta or British Columbia - what is the present govern ment doing to deal with the root causes of inflation? And I emphasize "root causes" because this government is very fond of rebate programs which while serving certain political purposes rarely if ever reflect the way and the degree to which people have actually been overtaxed. So I ask once again, where is the attack on root causes , and by root causes I mean two, high taxation and high government spending.

We've proposed on numerous occa sions selective cuts in both sales and income taxes. Neither have been forthcoming even though the honwrable gentlemen opposite when they were. in opposition denounced the sales tax. Selective tax cuts are important and necessary, but except in the very short run they will help but little unless they are ac companied by reduct ions in spending as well. Mr. Speaker, we are told while there has been no reduction in spending that the newest Estimates are an attempt to hold the line. Well, Mr.

Speaker, if these Estimates represent an attempt to hold the line, then we may all shudder to think what they would have been if caution and prudence had been thrown to the wind. The Premier made the point last week that all opposition parties tend to accuse governments of overspending, and all governments usually respond by demanding to know which programs the opposition would cut or reduce. Such at least are the normal source of exchanges. But I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that these are not normal times and that overspending in this province is fast becoming a serious situation.

Without having access to the records that the government has, without knowing what cost benefit analyses studies have been conducted, without knowing the full extent of contract hiring outside the Civil Service, and without knowing in many cases the financial alternatives

March 20, 1975 477 BILL NO. 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) .•.•. the government has faced, it's very difficult for an opposition or even government backbenchers to cite

chapter and verse with respect to government spending. The cases for waste and inefficiency in overspending exists . We know that they exist. We also know, Mr. Speaker , that the procedures in our legislative system do not provide the kinds of checks and bal ances needed to control non-productive accounts.

We know from the Provincial Auditor, and he remarked on this this Tuesday at the Public Accounts Committee, that he is not equipped, nor does he see it as his function --(lnterjection)-- he' s adequately sta ffed to examine the books acco rding to the function as it is interpreted in the Provincial Auditor's Act, but he does not see it as his function to make the assessment on non-productive accounts. Mr.

Speaker, I suggest to you that in the manner in which the Estimates are pres ented, and in the manner in which the debate on the Estimates takes place, and the procedures that we are operating now, it is imposs ible in this legislative forum, or in the Parliament of Canada, to effectively deal and provide the checks and ba lances that must exist in our pa rliamentary system to provide a protection for the people from the degree of waste, inefficiency and lack of productivity that can occur under any ad minist ration. But, Mr.

Speaker , I'm not prepared to accept the statements by the government that somehow or other they have applied restraint with respect to the Estimates that have been presented. Mr. Speaker, I'm not prepa red to accept that what is being proposed today com es forward as a result of a study of the cost-benefit relationship and an attempt on the part of the government to analyze prope rly programs and to be prepared to provide the reduction in government spending that is necessary to try and curb inflation. We have instances al ready on record where the gove rnment has overspent.

The Premier has already admitted to an over-commitment to Saunders. Whether they admit it or not the same is true of the Manitoba Development Corporation. The Provincial Auditor has demonstrated the problem s with the Department of Co operative Development and with the Manitoln Housing Renewal Corporation. And when the auditor said yes, Mr. Speaker, as he did on Tu esday, that hundreds of millions of dollar s of provi ncial funds ca n be spent without his scrut iny, then I suggest again that the potential for waste and overspending is immense.

So these are th ose areas that are already on record as be ing areas of waste and overspe nding. Mr. Spe aker, these are symptom atic of an atte mpt on the pa rt of go vernment to try and give the impr ession of restraint when in effect tha t re st raint has not been exercised.

When we look at line depa rtments and the prolif eration of boards and commissions and agencies and secreta ries and all the rest, one has to ask, where is the evidence that with all of these new agencies, with all of this extra-centrally co-o rdinated research and pl anning, whe re is the evidence that as a result of all of this rationalization costs have been reduced or eliminated in the department or that productivity has been increased. There has in fact been great expansion of hiring people under contract. We know that, Mr. Speaker, and tha t information in total has never been presented in this House.

Nor will it ever be. There is great expansion in the hi ring of consultants through a variety of different prog rams and th rough the various agencies as a me ans to provide additional staf fing. Fbr what? For evaluation of programs, for the constant exchange of paper back and forth from various depa rtments to other departments who are involved in planning proced ures. And all of this is said to be on the basis of being in the interests, Mr. Speake r, of the people of this province. But the interests of the people in this province, Mr.

Speaker, would have been better served had the government decided to stop spending; had the government decided to start to reduce taxes; (Hear hear) had the gove rnment started to stop stoking the fires of inflation by its continual spending progress program. We have no evidence that the hi ring that I suggested has been reduced or controlled in the de9artm ent. I suggest that evidence will not be found. Let me deal with some specif ic examples of spending in recent years. Mr. Speaker, I calculate this from the Estim ates.

I recognize as well that they do not contain all the information with respect to government spending, and I'll come back to tlnt in a moment. Nor do they contain specifically those areas alone that I'm going to mention, because there are a number, a whole range of prog rams which are jointly sponsored with the Federal

478 March 20, 1975 BILL NO. 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ..... Government which are included within the Estimates but whose breakdown and br.eakout we do not know. In 1970 the Department of Agriculture in salaries had $ 3 million. These are approximate figures, Mr. Speaker. In 1976 the Department of Agriculture has $8 million in salaries. The Department of Public Works had $3 million in salaries in 1970 and has $10 million in 1976. Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs had $ 900 thousand in 1970 and it has $ 7, 500, OOO forecast for 1976.

The Department of Youth and Education and Colleges and Universities had $ 9 million in salaries in 1970, $ 21 million salaries in 1976. Mr. Speaker, the total increase for all departments of salaries as referred to salaries in the Estimates - and I suggest that this is not all the salaries of government, I'll come back to that in a moment - the total increase from 1970 to 1976 is $ 83 million. The total percentage increase for all departments in salaries alone from 1970 to 1976 is 153. 7 percent. Mr.

Speaker, I again want to reiterate that these do not include those who are on contract, they do not include those who are hired as consultants, and they do not include those people who are on a variety of different boards and commissions that I'm going to come to in a few moments. This is with respect to the Estimates of the department in the Main Estimates that have been forwarded. Mr. Speaker, the total increase in the Civil Service from 1970 to 1974 was from 9, 622 to 12, 138, or 2 ,516 people. Which represents a percentage increase, Mr. Speaker, of 26. 1 percent.

Well again we come to a very basic fact or. --(Interjection)-- Well you are in isolation. I want to say this. Who is going to lead in this province, who is going to take the responsibility once and for all of recognizing that government you do it all.

Who is going to stand up and say to the taxpayer that the burden you are being asked to bear to run the cost of government is too high and that what we are doing is causing the inflation to continue to run rampant, and that we are prepared now to cut and recognize that there are going to have to be restraints exercised here and we're going to ask the rest of Canada to do the same. MR. MILLER: What programs would you cut? MR. SPIVAK: Oh, what programs will we cut? Well what programs we'll cut, I'll come to just two programs in just two minutes. Mr.

Speaker, I'll come to two programs, and I cite them just as a symptom and as --(Interjection)-- Oh yes. MR. SPEAKER: Order pleas e. MR. SPIVAK: Well I'll come to programs whose relevance to our particular situation can be evaluated and where in effect there is the possibility of some saving. A MEMBER: Start on the Estimate ... MR. SPIVAK: No, I want to tell the First Minister, you're not prepared for the knife and you will not cut this program because the program has too much political meaning for the New Democratic party.

I'll tell you you won't cut it because the relevance of the program is for political purposes and not for the people itself. Mr. Speaker, when I talk in terms of salaries and employees one has to recognize that in the main it does not include the salaries or the number of employees in the various boards, commissions and government agencies. And I refer the honourable members to Exhibit 7, Page 1 of the Provincial Auditor's Report which lists the boards and commissions that he is responsible for.

And I want to indicate those boards and commissions who employ people, who are government employees who are not included in the statistical data that I referred to. And it would be interesting, Mr. Speaker, to be able if we had proper public accounts in these various undertakings to be able to evaluate the actual increases that are taking place there. And I refer, Mr.

Speaker, to the Agricultural Credit Corporation, to the Communities Economic Development Fund, to the Manitoba Development Corporation, to the Manitoba Health Services Commission, to the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, to the Manitoba Hydro Electric Board, to the Leaf Rapids Development Corporation, to the Liquor Control Commission, to the Manitoba Telephone Commission, to the Manitoba Public Insurance Commission. Mr. Speaker, they all employ people who are on the Government payroll and there have been substantial increases in salaries there, and in numbers. And, Mr.

Speaker, it is all being borne by the taxpayer. The same taxpayer who pays the real

March 20, 1975 479 BILL NO. 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ..... estate taxes, who pays the sales taxes, who pays the liquor taxes, who pay the income taxes, both federally and provincially. And, Mr. Speaker, the question at this point is, is the government prepared to do anything? MR. SCHREYER: Let's hear it. MR. SPIVAK: Well let's hear it, let's hear it. You know last year, Mr.

Speaker, we had a budget of about $ 850 million, we had capital borrowing requested of$ 700 million, we now find from the Provincial Auditors Report that there was $ 262 million of unexpended legislative authority for capital purposes. That meant, Mr. Speaker, that with the $ 262 million that was available at the end of the last fiscal year, and with $ 700 million that was authorized, that in effect the Provincial Government was given the capacity to be able to borrow for capital purpose s a billion dollars. Now, Mr. Speaker, where is the restraint?

I want to refer to a couple of programs, and I do this only - I cite them as an example. I want to refer, Mr. Speaker , to the . . • A MEMBER: Do you know the difference in authority to commit and authority spent. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, I know the difference between authority to commit and authority spent, and if the billion dollars wasn't necessary I may suggest to the Honourable First Minister then there was no necessity of coming to this House and asking for $ 700 million last year. --(lnterj ection) -- For commitments. Well, Mr.

Speaker, if each year the First Minister as Minister of Finance can come back to this Legislature and ask for authority, it is not necessary for him to ask for $700 million last year if in fact he wasn't going to use it. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that either his commitments were to be made or he came and asked this group to give him authority which was not needed; and if that's the case then I think that that was a dishonest way of dealing with this Legislature. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I now want to deal with the Canada Northlands Agreement and I bring this because I think this is one example of the problem areas we have in trying to analyze these estimates and try and assess really the restraint that's exercised. Mr. Speaker, I want to say something to the Minister of Industry and Commerce, and I have to say this. I was Minister of Industry and Commerce some five years ago. I have some idea of the workings of his department. I know the people who are involved. I can tell you, Mr.

Speaker, without any question, there is absolutely no justification, absolutely no justification for the increase in spending that's occurred within his department. And I must tell you, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Industry and Commerce in carrying out his responsibility every day is taking money from the pockets of every taxpayer in this province unnecessarily. And I can say that without any fear. Mr. Speaker, I can tell the First Minister that I could go into his department and I can cut that right down.

There is not justification, there is nothing in his programming that would justify the kind of increase or percentage that has taken place. --(Interjection) -- Mr. Speaker, I want to tell you something. You may have a few businessmen friends but I don't think that the business men friends that you're talking about are going to listen very much to wha t you say. Mr.

Speaker, the Government signed a$ 21 million contract with the Federal Govern ment of which the provincial input is $ 8. 5 million, and it's contained partially within these estimates, both in the sense of salaries and programs and it's contained throughout. But I want to deal with a couple of them and try and talk about, you know, the ability on the part of the government to restrain its spending. One of the undertakings in the Northland Agreement and in the main, Mr. Speaker, not in the main but a significant part of the Northland Agreement, consists of studies, always studies.

We're going to continually study to study, study and restudy what we studied. Mr. Speaker, one of the programs is a Northern Transportation study for $ 250, OOO, of which $100, OOO, Mr. Speaker, is to be paid for by the province. Mr. Speaker, we need another northern study. We have a northern study called the Mauro Report. It was a massive study, it was a massive undertaking. Mr. Speaker, this government didn't even, the exception of maybe the Minister who read the report, did not even follow any of the recommendations of that report, did nothing with that report.

It was undertaken during the period of our administration and completed during their administration, published and forgotten about. And now we're going to have another study of$ 250, OOO of which $100, OOO will be taken from the provincial coffers, to do what?

480 March 20, 1975 BILL NO. 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ..... To basically restudy what has already been studied, an action of which could have been undertaken. Because I want to assure you, Mr. Speaker, that the Mauro study on northern transportation is as complete as any study had to be for a · program for northern Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, there is another program called the Information Communication Program. A MEMBER: You aren 't concerned about northern Manitoba. MR. SPIVAK: Yes I am concerned about northern Manitoba. But, Mr.

Speaker, let me tell you that all this is doing is employing some people who are going to study about what's going to happen in northern Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, there is another program Information Communication Service, a million and seventy-five dollars. $ 600, OOO comes from the Federal Government. Now I have to suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the provincial people are tremendous at conning the Federal Government into programs that are absolutely useless and, Mr.

Speaker, it's very difficult for one to understand , you know, the salesmanship that exists on the other side and the foolishness of the Federal Government. But we are going to spend $400, OOO on this program, and this program is only going to benefit the very few people who are employed , and I would suggest as well the New Democratic Party. That's why that program is being funded. And, Mr. Speaker, there's just no justification for that program to be undertaken, none at all.

There's no cost benefit at all, there's no way in which that program can be justified when all one has to do is look at the bulletins and realize what this is all about. A MEMBER: How much did we spend on that . . . MR. SPIVA K: How much have you spent on that to date? This program is in the Northlands Agreement here in this program which would have a $400, OOO amount, but I must suggest, Mr. Speaker, based on the $ 5 million that was spent before in the last few years we've probably spent $2 1/2 million on it, $2 million on it. That 's a lot of money, Mr. Speaker. A MEMBER: For basic communication. MR.

SP IVAK: For basic communication. What communication? Mr. Speaker, you know there's just no point. It's horsefeathers on the part of the Premier to suggest, really, at this point, Mr. Speaker, that there's any value, that there's any value to this program.

This is a political program which the people of Manitoba are being asked to pay, and I say to the First Minister who is going to show restraint, who is going to show lead ership, who is going to tell the people once and for all that we are going to stop this with respect to inflation, we are going to stop this spending , we are going to stop asking you to pay the degree of taxation that you have been paying and we're going to allow you to be able to hold the money, to be able to be in a position not to demand the increases in wages that are required and in this way try and stop the inflation spiral that exists.

I come back, Mr. Speaker, to the point with which I began. --(Interjection)- A MEMBER: The pigeons are smoking. MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, that's of course another situation, the pigeons. And I guess the First Minister doesn 't want to be reminded of that. And we remember that. The Department of Co-operative Development 's recommendation that instead of two-way radio systems we'd be better to have carrier pigeons. And, Mr. Speaker, I don't know whether that was $50, OOO we spent on that or what we spent on that.

It would be interesting for someone to take some responsibility to determine how much the taxpayer had to pay for that experiment, and at least find out who ate the pigeons. So at least we'll know, you know, who benefitted as a result of this experiment, in this creative program that was undertaken by the government. MR. PAULLEY: That was a ... it wasn't at public expense at all. MR. SPIVAK: It was at public expense. Mr. Speaker, it was at public expense, the Ilford Co-operative paid for it and that was funded by public money and it 's not going to be paid back as the First Minister knows.

As a matter of fact, fortunately whoever supplied the pigeons if he was paid for them, he's not one of the creditors, if he's one of the creditors he's going to be stuck like most of the creditors who have dealt with the co-ops up north. Mr. Speaker, the public is growing tired, and, Mr. Speaker, the public is becoming frightened by labour unrest in this country. And I think, Mr. Speaker, it's fair to say that

Ma rch 20 , 1975 481 BILL NO. 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ..... many are st aggered by wage increases tha t are now being de manded. Bu t labour unrest and exorbitant wage dem ands cannot be viewed separate and ap art from the inflation anci the cost-of- living crisis. And, Mr. Speak er, if we are to avoid work stopp ages and increase social tensions it seem s to me tha t government must not only ta ckle inflation but be seen to tac kling it.

And I suggest tha t no matter how the Prem ier or the members opposite ca n suggest or will suggest tha t thi s is only an 18 percent increase and tha t this 18 per cent increase really only represents a 10 percent increase , which was the direction I gav e to every membe r and every depart ment head. Mr. Speak er, I suggest tha t this does not in any way, and cannot in any way, indicate a restra int or an example of restraint to be follow ed by pr ivate enterp rise. Th e pub lic involvement in the economy of our country is so immense and is increasing , Mr. Speak er, at such a degree ... MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speak er, for pu rposes of clarification I don't want . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Minister of La bour hav e a question? MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Spea ker, I don't think I ... MR. PAULLEY: Yes I have. It's just the tim ing of the . .. MR. SPEAKER: Order pl ease. Th e Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Well I really hav e no objection to the Minister of La bour asking me a question. but I sort of resent him coming in in the last minute and then basic ally jump ing up , jumpi ng ... Well, Mr. Spe aker, I th ink .. . MR. PAULLEY: Okay, forget it .. . MR. SPEAKER: Order pl ease. Order pl ease. MR.

SPIVAK: I listen with great interest to som e of the statem ents and pronouncements tha t the Minister of La bour says, but I th ink tha t I'm entitled , Mr. Speak er, to compl ete my remarks and allow the Minister of Labour to say whatever he wants to say, but I resent, Mr. Speak er, hi s coming into the Chamber today without knowledge of what I sa id before and basi cally now answers another st atem ent. MR. PAULLEY: I heard what you said. MR. SPIVAK: Well unless you were in the press ga llery, I'm not sure tha t you did. Mr.

Speaker, the size of the pu bl ic sector in our economy is growing and the contribution tha t it's making to our econom y is increasing. We are fa ced with a shadow of recession and the ba lance is a difficult one. Bu t we hav e to seriously try and reverse and control the de velop ment of inflation. Without tha t we will fail not just with inflation but we will fail in coping with the labour prob lems of today which I suggest forecast what we may very well face in the future as a matter of da ily occu rrence.

If we are to sit back and see larger and larger share of the gross national income effectively consumed by essentially non-productive activities of government, and if we are to see wage sett lements co nstantly outst ripping the actual produc tivity of the economy, then we fa ce co nsequences, Mr. Speaker, tha t will be disastrous. And it is those persons to who m this government and most governments, Mr. Speak er, are address ing th emse lves who will be hit the most . Mr. Speak er, governments and all governments have got to learn tha t they simpl y ca nnot spend their way out of econo mic problem s.

Gover nments hav e to realize tha t any and all pr o gram s of spending in which they are involved ha ve now got to be subjected to the most ruthless examination in terms of costs and benefits. --(Interjection)-- I'm sor ry? Well, Mr. Speak er, if the Keynesian phi losophy, or Keynesian theo ry should app ly now, and if the First Minister believ es tha t today the Keynesian phil osophy or Keynesian attitude should appl y today without any restraint then I think he better go back to school again. --(Interjection)-- Well, Mr.

Speak er, then what we are tal king about is the degree and emphasis , and I'm suggest ing to the First Minister, as I suggest to the other members opposi te, that you really hav e not done your hom ewo rk, tha t these est imates do not reflect the kind of restraint tha t must be shown. Mr.

Spe aker, I suggest tha t this government like other governments who are concerned about be ing elected to office and concerned at this point more with the poli tical posturing that's required, are not attempt ing to do what is required at thi s st age which is to control spending and to control the involvement of the pu bl ic secto r in our economy.

Th e real ity is tha t the public sector through all the range of program s, whether it be MHRC, whether it be Hydro, whether it be any of the other levers that are used , when they pay for services , when they bid on services, will pay higher than the priv ate sector. Th at 's an accepted view - and I don't think the First Minister will quarrel with tha t - and the problem is as the degree of pu bl ic

48 2 March 20, 1975 BILL NO, 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ..... involvement becomes higher the constant pressure as a result of the increasing demand and increasing costs that are paid for by government will have the effect of causing an upward swing in those services the private sector are competing with and will continue the trend in the inflationary spiral. So the problem is , Mr. Speaker, at what point are you going to be able to - -( Interjection)-- I know.

At what point are you going to be able to balance the need to meet the recess ionary trend that is in front of us - I'm not suggest ing that that does not exist - to balance the need for employment opportunities, and at the same time recognize that unless the taxpayer is relieved and unless the inflationary trend stops, that what we are witnessing with the substantial demands of labour for increases will continue and will accelerate even to greater extent than we are witnessing now and will become, as I suggest, a daily occurrence?

So the question is: who is going to take that responsibility to lead and where is it going to come from? And can it come from a provincial government? Well I suggest it can, and I suggest that leadership can. It's not entirely a ... I' m not in the Ontario forum here; I am here dealing in this Legislative As sembly, with the government --(In terj ection)-- Yes. I have a responsibility, Mr.

Speaker, I have a responsibility as Leader of the Opposition to tell the Firs t Minister that he has a responsibility, that the Minister of Labour has a responsibility, and it's not to pass around, all around with his hands in his pocket, saying "There's nothing I can do. " Be cause I want to tell you, Mr. Speaker, all that indicates is a complete ignorance of the very serious and real conditions that exist, or for him to say "Wow!" when increases are demanded of him, and feel that that' s a political answer which is sort of self- satisfying to him.

You know, that answer is nonsensical, because that government has to face the reality of a choice, of a choice that has to be undertaken. And I'm suggesting at this point, Mr.

Speaker, that those choices have not been made correctly, and I'm suggesting at this session, with the estimates that have been provided so far, that we do not have a full explanation of them and one can only deal with them on the basis of the information supplied, and one must recognize, as I suggested before, that the proper review of these estimates for the times that exist today , is not able to be done within the framework of the parliamentary system as we've operated in the past. I want to stress that over again. That isn't a blame that is to be attach ed to the First Minister, to his government.

I am saying to you, Mr. Speaker, that in the times that we live and in the serious nature of the economic problems that we face, that the procedures and way in which we operate are not sufficient, and continue, Mr. Speaker, to pro vide us with less and less information about more and more government spending. And that, Mr. Speaker, is a concern that we have to address ourselves to. But I don't see any leadership on the other side, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the res traint that has to be exercised. -- (Interjection)-- No, Mr.

Speaker, I again say that the governments are to blame, but I do not be lieve that the taxpayers, who have had to bear this increasing cost of government, are going to accept that restraint can't be exercised, because their concern is with inflation, their concern is with the excessive demands as they see it and perceive it, that people in society are now asking as a result of the inflation, and they are con cerned with the degree of government spending and the degree of high taxation that eats and erodes so much of their income.

Gov ernments are going to have to have the courage to make some hard decisions, and they'r e going to have.to make some hard choices , and the y're going to have to tell the public that certain kinds of spending by government cannot and will not continue. And, Mr. Speaker, if the government had had the courage, they would look at its MDC's spending and it would stand up and say, "We've made some mistakes, and for crying out loud; in the interests of the taxpayers of this province, we are not going to continue doling out hundreds of thousands of dollars every day and millions of dollars every month. " And, Mr.

Speaker, that has to be done, be cause governments must be hard-hearted now, because if they are not, in this respect - and some may classify them as being inhumane if they do the things that I am suggesting - but because if they do not do this in the long run, Mr. Speaker, it may be such that the actions that they'v e undertaken will have caused more hardship, greater hardship, and greater concern for the very people that they are trying to protect. Mr.

Speaker, we have reached a point in our society in this country and in this province that, unless that restraint is exercised and demonstrated, unless those undertakings that I'v e talked about come about, we will face a choice of an escalation in wage demands that will be

March 20, 1975 483 BILL NO, 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ..... so severe, th at what th e M GA has asked th e Minister of La bour this time around will seem like a reasonable settlement to th e demands th at will be asked in th e future. And, Mr.

Speaker, when th at happ ens, the inflat ion th at we have will only be con trolla ble by the severest kind of governmental action, which in its app lication will again hit those who are th e least able to cope with it, th e very peop le with whom this government has tried to identify itself and with whom this government has tried to prov ide programs of assist ance. And all the political trickery th at is involved in their rebate programs , both of cos t of living, bot h of education ta x rebate s, will not in any way allow th e people to cope with the situation. Mr.

Speaker, th e City of Winnipeg is faced with a po ssibility of a 20 to 25 mill increase , and whethe r th ey're ab le to lower it by five mills or not it's proba b ly th e mo st substantia l mill rate increase th at th e City has ever witnessed at this particular time in our economic history. Ca n anyone believ e that we should be put into a po sition where they could have th e highest in creas e ever asked , and that the ta xp ayers will ha ve to pa y the highest increased amount? Now the demands th at will occur from th at and th e effect s that will occur from tha t , of course, are obvious.

Th is will mean increased demands for wages, for higher wages, it will mean in creas ed co sts fo r all th e co mmerc ial goods and services th at are offered in th e City. Th e fact is, Mr. Spea ker , that th e government pro vided a co st of living program, which is suppo sed to be a sales ta x reduction pr og ram, but in effect th ey pro vided it for th e fo llowing year, and, Mr. Speaker, we will have already had an increase in th e amount of sales ta x pai d by the peop le of Manitoba of the amount high er th an the actual amount tha t will be dispersed to th e peop le thems elv es.

So th ere's no benefit, Mr. Spea ker. In all of the trickery th at's involved, the go vernment has really not provided th e benefits for th e peop le. And I co me back to the very basic point , Mr. Spea ker. With respect to th e programs of go vernment, there is no ch oice. We face a situation in which government spending and govern ment ta xation has to be reduced. We face a situation where th ey are, along with other factors but th ey still are , an import ant factor in th e degree and th e rate of inflat ion that we face. And, Mr. Speaker, Mr.

Speaker --(Interjection)-- Well, I want to say to th e First Minister, and I want to repeat again, I am now saying to him - and it is no answer to me , it is only an excuse - and I'll repeat it over and over again to him, I don't ca re what oth er governments are do ing.

I say to him th at unless someone show s the leader ship and starts to think of th e people instead of the political pos turing of th e government, unless they start to th ink of th e peo ple, th e reality is th at th e people themselves will find th emselv es in a situation - well, what they are going to be facing is far mo re inhumane, far more difficult fo r them, th an th e act ions th at would have been taken by cutting programs, by reducing spending, and, Mr. Speaker, by attempt ing at leas t to control what is ta king pla ce. And again I say, Mr. Spea ker, and without .. .

I'm re pe ating again, but it has to be sa id, tha t th e demand for increases that we have now seen by th e labouring force is sympt oma tic of th e condition we live under and will be co rrected by a number of act ions, but one of which will be th e reduction of government spending , both in th e estima tes and in the capi t al undertakings that are provided by go vernment. Inflation is a world-wide phenomenon, Mr. Speaker, and it may very well be th at th ere are limited ways in which a government can do certain th ings, but I'm suggesting, Mr.

Spea ker, tha t select ive tax cut s are one way in controlling of government spending, controlling of gov ernment waste, controlling of government inefficiency and product ivity. And I say to the Minister of Industry and Commer ce, you know , he can ta lk to all the bus inessmen he wants and tell them th at th ey should show restraint.

He can say to all the businessm en, "You know, you shou ld watch what you 're do ing and you should beco me more product ive, " and th e bu siness man will say to him, "Well, you'd better start do ing it first, and you look at Sa unders, and you look at Flyer, and you look at th e who le ho st of government operations tha t have lost money, and don't tell us about any restraints and don't tel l us about what we should do in th e pri vate sector. " And I say th at because, Mr. Spea ker, th ere has been no example set by this gove rn ment, and th ey real ly, Mr.

Spea ker, have no other ch oice , and if th ey do not make th is ch oice, then I say to th em th at th e consequences will be severe and the impa ct will be felt even harder among th e very peop le, Mr. Spea ker, whom th ey'd like to try to identify themselves as being th e ones . . . suppo rt of all. And th at , Mr. Speaker, is a strange thing, becaus e in effect what th ey are do ing by not taking th is act ion, is hurt ing the very people with whom they like to say th at th ey are th ere for.

484 March 20, 1975 BILL NO, 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ..... And that, Mr. Speaker, is our real problem in the dilemma and the economy that they're involved in. And I still recognize the balance that still has to be undertaken between an attempt to keep a full employment program and an attempt to be able to place the government in a position to assis t and help in the economic system that we Live under, but I suggest, as well, Mr. Speaker , that there are ... -- (Interjection)-- oh yes , I know what that means. -- (Interjection)-- Well, Mr.

Speaker, we'll wait until we see the budget as to what the deficit will be. But I say, Mr. Speaker, at this point, that what is required is a restraint on government spending, both in its current and capital accounts and selective tax cuts, not trickery and not a sleight of hand, but in real terms, in real terms, Mr. Speaker. That's what' s required.

And at this point - and it may be that we'll be proved to be wrong when more information is provided when the budget comes through, and when we know what the Capital Account Looks Like, when we know what the unused Capital Account is estimated to be for this year - when we see all of this, Mr. Speaker, we may be in a better position, and it may very well be that I'm going to be in a position to maybe even congratulate the First Minister on some action. But I must say, well it' s not Likely, Mr. Speaker, based on the course of action, and it's not Likely, Mr.

Speaker, when I Look at some of the programs and recognize that they allowed these programs to go through. There's one other thing and I will finish, Mr. Speaker. There's a tendency on the part of the government, as I think in most governments, to go after 50 -cent or 40-c ent dollars from the Federal Government. --( Interjection)-- No, I'm saying, Mr.

Speaker, there is a tendency on the part of all governments, and on this government, to go over every Federal Government program that would be offered, to try and draw as much money and to try and put so much money - of provincial money - in to be able to continue that program, and that's part of the expansionary program we have. And I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the time has come to start to resist some of those programs. -- (Interjection)-- Yes. Well, I don't see an example of that here.

Well , I must say that the time has come to resis t them, because the temptation to do that only increases the additional inflationary trend within the province and the fact that the Federal Gov ernment has not be en able to control its spending, or the fact that the Fed eral Govern ment does not know what to do with the gains that it has in its income as a result of inflation, is no justification for the Provincial Gover nment to continue to operate in the way it has. Again, Mr.

Speaker, there is no other choice but selective tax cuts and control of government spending, and that' s the choice that the government faces. At the present time we have not seen an example, and Mr. Speaker, until that happens, any statements by the Minister of Labour or others about the degree of concern, about the increasing wage demands within this province, is nonsense because it really means nothing, Mr. Speaker, because he speaks with nothing when he says that; because anyone can say to him, "Look what you have done. Look what you are causing within our economy, so don't blame us. " And, Mr.

Speaker, that's the problem the government faces. There are hard choices. They have to make them. . . . . . continued on next page

March 20, 19 75 485 BILL NO. 7- INTERIM SUPPLY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I regret first of all that I came into the Assembly after I listened to a statement of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition , and I asked the courtesy of a reply from him in respect of a statement that he had made, and in his normal irascible approach to legitimate questions, he ignored that. At that particular time, Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition had indicated that he, at some time or other, had indicated the possibility of a ten percent constraint or restraint--(lnterjection) -- You! You made the statement! Now look, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition, I appreciate his peculiar situation at the present time, that he is fighting as hard as he can fight for the continuation of his being the Leader of the Official Opposition , and I would suggest to his colleagues and . .. Goodbye, my honourable friend.

Because you haven•t got the intestinal fortitude to sit back and listen to critici sms against you, either here in the Assembly or within the Conservative Party of Manitoba, it is so wise of the Member for River Heights to evade responsibility . . . MR . SPEAKER: Order please. I hope this is relevant to Bill 7. The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR . PAULLEY: Yes , it has, Mr. Speaker, relevance to Bill No. 7, because we•re dealing with the whole question of the forward thrust of this government .

Oh, I can under stand my friend from one of the hinterlands there talking about this being a bunch of crap - and he is the one that can really bring it up. A MEMBER: That•s right. MR. PAULLEY: That•s right - and who is so knowledgeable about the word that he used, and I will not, except to attribute to him as a bunch of crap . He used the statement, Mr. Speaker, not I. But I do want to say this.

We are dealing with the matter of Bill No. 7 dealing with Interim Supply, and in consideration of the proposition dealing with the requirements of the necessity of the provision to the government of a certain amount of money in order to conduct the affairs of Manitoba, the Le ader of the Opposition , in his incompetent manner, attempted to use this to bring to the attention of the Assembly his ideas of what should prevail. It is that that I want to make comment on.

When I ca me into the Assembly I thought that the Leader of the Opposition , who is now absent because he cannot stand criticisms - and this is obvious - and is wont to duck his responsibility • • . As a matter of fac t, he even not too long ago dismissed one of his more competent advisers, I would suggest, the Honourable Member for Lakeside, because there was a confl ict between the Member for River Heights and the Member for Lakeside, and l•m not getting into the ways and means of which the Conservative Party in Manitoba operate.

I do suggest that they have exhibited, at least for the last 10 years, an absolute incompetency of being able to make a con tribution to the well-being of the Province of Manitoba. And if we needed anything today, Mr. Speaker, to illustrate that, it was as a result of the contr ibu tion of the present but fast-diminishing leadership in the Conservative Party by the Member for River Heights. Because after all, Mr. Speaker, what is the Conservative Party in Manitoba really suggesting at the present time through their present and, in my opinion, incompetent leaders? What are they suggesting? A MEMBER: Wow! MR.

PAULLEY: Wow is right. Wow is right I recogniz e, Mr. Speaker, that as the Minister of Labour of the present administration I have my problems. I recognize that they are real, true problems. A MEMBER: Created by yourself. MR . PAULLEY: Created by myself, Mr. Speaker? The Member for Lakeside says created by myself. If I•ve created them and if he is correct , then I accept that. But what did the Leader of the Opposition say today in his remarks?

He says, 11Yo u know, the civ il servants in the Province of Manitoba recognize that they have to catch up insofar as their wages are concerned, their working condit ions, and we have made certain proposals to the government, to the administration, as to how we could resolve these problems, and they made the request. " That is fair game, but what is the solution of the Conservative Party of Manitoba ? lt•s not to recognize that there may be some legitimacy of approaches insofar as working conditions in the Civil Service. But the Leader of the Opposition says, you know,

486 March 20, 19 75 BILL NO 7-INTERIM SUPPLY (MR. PAULLEY cont•d) •. , .• the solution to the problem, Mr, Speaker, is not to agree to any consideration of resolving deficiencies salary-wise and insofar as working conditions are concerned, but to reduce the input of taxation on the pe q:>le of Manitoba so that it will not be pos sible for the Government of Manitoba to even consider the legitimacy of the re quest of the Civil Service . Mr, Speak er, I have stuck my neck out as Minister of Labour , and I recognize that. I have said in this House --(Interjection)-- A MEMBER: Some neck, some chicken. MR.

PAULLEY: That•s right. Some neck, some chicken. But I recognize, Mr. Speaker, that there are chickens, that there are times when some of us in the area of responsibility in this As sembly have to recognize the problems with which we are being confronted, and all that we•re getting from the Conservative Party in this Hou se is 11the poor civil servants, " the poor this , the poor that, need an increase in their income , and at the same time we have to reduce taxation so that we cannot provide at the provincial level the increases that are being requested. I haven•t as yet, Mr.

Speaker, heard anyone in the Opposition realistically to turn around and recognize the.problems with which we are con fronted today, and many of the problems that we are confronted with today are not the result of this particular government in Manitoba but as a result of the inefficiency of previous governments. Now I know the Member for Fort Rouge will turn around to me with tears coming out of his eyes and say, 11Well, dammit all, Mr. Minister, let•s not hark back to the years when the Conservatives were in power here in the Province of Manitoba. And I suggest that that is their game.

" He can say it be cause he hasn• t any responsibility either. He is not charged with the responsibility of asses sing the people of Manitoba, the taxpayers of Manitoba , on a tax basis with the requirements to provide for the normal, orderly conduct of the Province of Manitoba. So I say to my honourable friend the Member for Fort Rouge, fault me if you will .. • . He said nothing ? Well, maybe the Honourable Member for Morris is correct, that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge has said nothing because he hasn•t any responsibility.

His party is not any longer recognized as a party in the Province of Manitoba, a prediction that I made a few years ago when I was over there a couple of seats away from where the Member for Fort Rouge now sits , and I said that the Liberal Party in Manitoba were doomed to oblivion, I might not be able to prophesy in many cases, but I did prophesy that, and the Member for Fort Rouge, I think, if he would turn around and look at the past, would rec ognize that I knew of what I spoke at that time, I know of what I speak this afternoon. The whole point, Mr.

Speaker, is that the Conserv ative Party --(I nterjection)-- they are a fine group --(Int erjection)-- Yes , I would say, Mr. Speaker, that I would agree with the Honourable Member for Lakeside that they•re a fine group of individuals who are irre sponsible and are not prepared to accept any responsibility for the conduct of the Province of Manitoba today. I agree with my honourable friend, even though he did get dismissed as the Deputy Leader of the Conservative Party.

Yes , my honourable friend says, keep it clean, Well, I don•t know whether by that my honourable friend, the Member for Lakeside , says that his Leader did not keep it clean. He ave that to the judgment of the Member for Lakeside . But what are we being confronted with today by the, in my opinion, irresponsible Leader of the Official Opposition ?

He stood up in the Hous e, he stood up in the House and he condemned me , as the Minister of Labour, because I did introduce two or three years ago a labour code which would give equality to the labour people in Manitoba a proposition where they would be construed and considered as being equal to management. I•m con demned for that - something that I had fought for all of my political career .

And the Leader of the Opposition says that one of the problems which we are confronted with today is not the problems in inflation , which go beyond the boundaries of the Province of Manitoba into the federal and international field, the Leader of the Opposition said that one of the problems which we•re confronted with here in Manitoba is because of the fact that the Minister of Labour brought in proposals into this legislation that would give equal opportunity to the producers in the Province of Manitoba . He condemns that. We had evidence just recently,

March 20, 1975 487 BILL NO, 7 INTERIM SUPPLY (MR, PAULLEY cont•d) ••• , , Mr, Speaker, as a result of the Conservative Annual Con vention, that the Conservative Party here in the Province of Manitoba are so damned reaction ary that they would curtail any right of the labour movement or the labour community of having a free and equal voice in the operation of industry in the Province of Manitoba. A MEMBER: Prove it, MR, PAULLEY: Prove it? You proved it, Mr . Member for Swan River, by the resolu tions that were adopted by the Conservative Party at their last convention.

When I, as Min ister of Labour, introduced suggestions of change in our legislation in 19 72, there was "wail ing at the wall" by the Conservative Party. But members of the Conservative Party at that particular time, individually stood up and said that it was time for a change , that we should recognize that the working community in the Province of Manitoba should have an input in the economy .

And now, because as a result of inflation which we in Manitoba cannot control except with a limited input, the Leader of the Opposition is bewailing the fact that our problems are accompanied because of the labour legislation that was introduced in this House . And I can imagine my honourable friend from Swan River, he is wont to go back to the Little Red School Ho use , MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River) : Damn right. MR. PAULLEY: Damn right, he says, Mr.

Speaker, and he•d also like to go back to the days prior to the Tolpuddle martyrs when the master decided exactly the working conditions that those in his employ or her employ would operate , Well I want to say to my friend from Swan River, I am not going to lead the people of Manitoba, and particularly the labouring segment, back to the days that the Member for Swan River would like us to go .

And I suggest, I suggest that what we heard today from the Leader of the Opposition, now absent, is an in dication that he and the Conservative Party would like to go back to those days so that labour suffered under the thumb of management. Well, dammit all, Mr. Speak er, I•m not going to agree with that. All of my life I have fought, all of my life I have fought --(Int erjection)- Yes , and I would say to the Member for Sturgeon Creek that he is of the same ilk as the Member for Fort Rouge, the Member for Swan River - there•s no damn difference. Because if my honourable friend, Mr.

Speaker, from Sturgeon Creek can screw an extra buck out of a worker for his own advantage , he will do it, and I make no apologies for that statement, Mr. Speaker. MR. F. JOHNSTON: On a point of privilege Mr . Speaker, I request the Minister retract that statement that I would go to any end to screw an extra buck out of a worker. Mr. Speaker, I demand a retraction from the Minister . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please . MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speak er, I•m entitled to my own opinion and that is my opinion . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please . The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Mr, Speak er , that was an accusation against a member of this Ho use . It was not an opinion, it was an accusation and I demand a retraction, MR, DEPUTY SPEAKER: That point is well taken . I think the Honourable Minister can rephrase his statement another way. MR. PAULLEY: Yes, I will rephrase it. If the cap, Mr. Speaker ..• I will rephrase it, If the cap doesn• t fit the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek, then I withdraw. If the cap does fit, I hope it bears on his conscience . MR AXWORTHY: .•• included in that particular Rogues Gallery that the Minister mentioned, and I also demand a retraction.

I think either that or he change the target. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, as far as the Member for Fort Rouge is concerned on a point of order, he had none. If he wants to be associated with my remarks respe cting the Member for Sturgeon Creek, let him also wear the cap. I have suggested, Mr. Speaker, that if the cap doesn• t fit the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek, then I•m prepared to with draw. If it does fit any other member , including the Member for Fort Rouge who rose , well then I leave it to him. It•s not my statement, Mr.

Speaker, in respect of the Member for Fort Rouge. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for As siniboia . MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order, I believe the Minister of Labor

488 BILL NO. 7 - INTERIM SUPPLY MR . DEPUTY SPEAKER; Point of privilege , March 20, 19 75 MR. PATRICK: Point of privilege . The Minister of Labour did indicate and called the Member for Fort Rouge, Perhaps he meant some other member from some other constitu ency, but in his remarks he was attacking, and he said, the Member for Fort Rouge. Perhaps he can make that correction.

MR, PAULLEY: Yes, Mr, Speaker, Itll make that correction, If I alluded to the Liberal Party or the Member from Fort Rouge, or any other member , then let them decide as to whether the cap fits their head or not, MR, DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Lakeside . MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I have a point of privilege . The conditional manner with which the Minister of Labour has offered a retraction makes it incumbent, in my judgment, upon any individual member now to rise to indicate that the cap does not fit, and I so want to indicate that the cap does not fit as far as the Honourable Member for Lakeside is concerned.

MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, are we now to assume that those of us who do not rise has that . . • ? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Are we now to assume that those of us who do not feel that we should even respond to the wild accusations of the Minister of Labour are going to be accused of what he has accused the Member for Sturgeon Creek and other members in this Hou se for ? I think he should make an unconditional withdrawal, because it is a very silly and a very stupid and a very unparliamentary statement, MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, if anyone•s going to -deal with privilege , the statement of the Honourable Member for Morris when he said that my statement was stupid, allows me to rise on a point of privilege , but after all, I don•t pay a damn bit of attention to any of the involvement of the Member for Morris , who is one of the most inept members of this Hou se , and though he stands up here , Mr. Speaker, from time to time, and presumes that he is the Diefenbaker of this Ho use , he doe sn•t sell it to me . So, Mr.

Speaker, in order that it may be clear insofar as my recognition of the matter that I referred to, withdrawal, I don•t want, I don•t want really any honourable member of this Ass embly to wear a hat that may be befit ting them , but maybe I should say their respective political parties rather than they as individuals .

If that•s acceptable, then may I go on to indicate that the now present Leader of the Opposition, who in my opinion is fighting to retain that leadership , and now he•s going again--(lnt erjection)-- Of course , it' s his privilege to go and to come , but in all of the years that l•ve been associated in this As sembly, most members do give to those who may be criticizing them at least the courtesy of staying while the criticisms are being directed. I realize •.• A MEMBER: ltll buy that. MR. PAULLEY: Youtll buy that, yes. Of course . But your leader won•t. Your leader won•t buy that.

And I accept, I accept the buying or the selling by the Member for Swan River that this is no •.• No, no horse trading. It all depends on what end of the horse that you•re talking about, and I know full well that quite frequently you talk to the wrong end of the horse . But apart from that, apart from that, Mr. Speaker , I do want to say --(Inter ject ions)-- Oh, you keep quiet, Your contributions to any of the debates in this House aren•t even worth listening to. I do want to say, Mr.

Speaker, W s so historical of the likes of the Leader of the Opposition with his diminishing numbers of adherents and supporters in this Ho use - and they are going to diminish even further, Mr. Speaker - to not accept any responsibility at all.

The Leader of the Opposition this afternoon condemned this government because of its budget, because of the request for Interim Supply in order to carry on the normal process of the gov ernment and the normal procedures required to supply the moneys for the conduct of govern ment, He complained because of the fact that we have the responsibility for considering the demands of labour in the Province of Manitoba. I recognize that this is a trying period of time. --(Int erjection)-- My honourable friend from Morris says which we created. Did we create the problems of inflation all across the universe ?

Did we create the problems , Mr. Speaker, because we gave to the employees of the Civil Service in Manitoba the right of being heard, and is the corollary to that, that having given them the opportunity, that we should

March 20, 1975 489 BILL NO, 7- INTERIM SUPPLY (MR. PAULLEY cont•d) •.••. have carried on in the historic manner of the Conservative Party, that they should not be heard ? Is this what the Honourable Member for Morris is saying, that we created the right of individuals to be heard ? Is the Member for Morris say ing that we should not have given the people in Manitoba a right to be heard ? Should we go to the dictatorial methodology of countries in other parts of the globe, that people should not be heard ? Is this what the Member for Morris is suggesting at the present time ?

If that is what he is suggesting - and I sometimes think, Mr. Speaker, that he really believes in that, by his speeches in the House - then I want to say to the Member from Morris: if this is what he means, then itt s alien to the democratic process of government and I will not accept it, If he wants to accept it, again I use that phrase , "Let him wear the hat,11 I•m not kidding at all, and I don•t think, Mr.

Speaker, that the Member for Morris is kidding either, because after listening to his tirade from time to time in this Ho use, I believe that the Member for Morris would b e glad if the population, if the labouring forces in Manitoba , didn•t have the right to be heard, but individuals like himself would be able to impose upon them conditions of labour and conditions of associ ation in our community. That is what, Mr. Speaker, he said, --(Int erjection)-- He didn•t? Then you read Hansard to morrow, or when it comes out, because that is what the Member for Morris said - -Interjec tion)-- Oh, you weren• t here .

Well, you•re not here half the time . But, Mr. Speaker, I do want to say that after listening to the Leader of the Opposition, Ws very very evident to me that there is a total lack of responsibility on the part of the Leader of the Opposition , the Conservative Party in Manitoba. They want the best of two worlds . They want to be able to stand up in this House and criticize the government because we are endeavouring to legislate and conduct the affairs of Manitoba on a reasonable basis . But they want the best of two worlds .

They want to be able to criticize us for what we are doing, and they do not suggest any constructive - and I emphasize constructive - they are not in a posi tion, because of their lack of an intellectual approach, to offer any constructive alternatives . They want the best of two worlds . And I want to say, Mr. Speaker, as one who had the opportunity of being in this Ho use , you can•t have it both ways .

If and when the Leader of the Conservative Party, and his followers can stand and will stand up in this Ho use and say, •We don•t like what you•re doing, but here we•re suggesting alternative proposi tions," then I•ll listen to them, But until that time happens, I think they•re nothing more than a bunch of rabble who do not accept their responsibilities in a new democracy. Oh yes, Mr.

Speaker, it•s easy to criticize, it' s easy to condemn, but boy oh boy, shouldn•t the people in Manitoba expect more responsibility from the Conservative Party than they•re getting at the present time, and I•m sure that many thousands of electors in the Province of Manitoba would join with me in saying to the Leader of the Liberal Party and to the Conservative Party, "F or God• s sake, be a little responsible and respectful. 11 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. We will now proceed to the Private Members Ho ur. The Honourable Minister will be able to continue after the supper hour. Private Members Hour.

PRNATE MEMBERS HOUR - RESOLUTION NO. 5 MR. SPEAKER: The first item . The Honourable Member for Swan River , Resolution No, 5, MR. BILTON: Mr. Speaker, I mo ve, seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin:

WHEREAS the incidence of lawlessness and an apparent decline in the respect for law and order throughout Manitoba are matters of growing concern to many citizens; and

WHEREAS law enforcement is becoming more difficult, particularly in Northern Manitoba because of the large area to be supervised by a limited number of uniformed per sonnel; and

WHEREAS many individuals, after being apprehended and after entering a plea are released on bail because of delays occasioned by heavy court dockets and the limited number of judges, clerks and reporters available; and

WHEREAS many such individuals, who are repeaters , are thus afforded an opportunity while out on bail to continue their lawless acts towards society; THE RE FORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the government consider the advisability of

490 March 20, 19 75 RESOLUTION 5 (MR. BILTON conttd) . • • requesting the Law Reform Commission to examine the entire provincial structure of law enforcement with a view to strengthening our crime prevention machinery and the ability of our courts to deal expeditiously with cases brought before them, and to examine also the costs associat ed with our total law enforcement program . MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr. Speaker, I believe the contents of this resolution speaks volume and speaks for itself. I also believe, Mr.

Speaker, that all members will agree that crime is reaching a stage that it has become a public disgrace to our society. True , Mr. Speaker, it' s nationwide, and somewhere soon the curbing of this menace has to be found. The tragedy of it all, Mr. Speaker, is that our police forces, federally, provincially and municipally, are carrying a burden that is not too well understood. Society, it seems to me , Mr. Speaker, are bending over backward on the side of those that rebel against our laws . All too often, Mr.

Speaker, peace officers are accused of brutality, and many other instances that those they have arrested can bring before the courts. I•m not suggesting, Mr. Speaker, that they should be excused for brutality - not by any means. But, Mr. Speaker, I believe these do gooders don•t realize that the man that commits a crime, many of them habitual criminals - I•m not talking of the odd individual that breaks the bounds of law, but rather those that are brought in time after time and who have nothing to lose, Mr.

Speaker, in their mind, and as a consequence just take peace officers to the extreme of their patience in handling them. I don•t have to relate some of the things that you have read and I have read over recent years, but somehow or other this story as to what the police officers have to do in the hand ling of criminal offenders must be brought home to the people so they will endeavour to under stand what these men in uniform have to put up with. Mr.

Speaker, let there be no misunderstanding so far as I am concerned, I am for capital punishment 11s a deterrent toward capital crime that is plaguing this country today. I•m going to go so further as to say that the strap should be reinst ituted too , Mr. Speaker, not with the thought of giving abuse to those that commit wrongdoing, but rather as a deterrent, that they can see it before their eyes and in some way or other bring crime to a halt. No matter how small, itts important to our society . Mr.

Speaker, I don•t have to tell you that our newspapers carry stories almost daily as to the sorry state that, not only in this province but across the nation, we have arrived at in this regard. Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, crime is reaching down to our young people , down to our young people as never before , and society must be alerted in this particular regard, This problem Mr. Speaker, has troubled me as I•m sure it• s troubled many more in recent years. Who would have imagined, Mr. Speaker, that in this day and age people are afraid to walk our streets at night?

I do not have to recite to you many of the hideous acts that are happening almost daily, just for the sake of committing crime or for some paltry thing that a per son may have in their possession. Mr, Speaker, somehow or other, in thinking of this resolution, I am appealing through you and through this House for consideration in this regard, to point out once and for all that crime does not pay. I was very interested the other night and listened very intently to what the Member for Fort Rouge recited in detail in regard to this problem. I think what he said should be repeated over and over and over again .

Something has got to be done, Mr. Speaker. Time is running out, I must say at the same time that society in its own way is doingits part to provide in the protection of the people . I give you one illustration, the one I•m familiar with, that is in Swan River - 4, OOO people , Mr. Speaker, and it costs us $67, OOO a year for police pro tection, or police surveillance if you like. The municipality. Swan River has 12 and they have 16 men in that area. Flin Flon , Mr. Speaker, costs them $175, 000, 16 men . Thompson, a great deal more than that, Mr. Speaker, and 27 men there.

The Pas, $175, 000 for the oncoming year . And in the City of Winnipeg, Mr. Speaker, the cost of police in this city in 1972 was $11 million; today it's $15 million. So it cannot be said that the people themselves are not providing the wherewithal in order to hold down crime . To these figures, Mr. Speaker, can be added that the province paid the Royal Canadian Mounted Police some $6- 1/2 million last year, and it's going up to $8 million this year . And

March 20, 1975 491 RESOLUTION 5 (MR. BILTON conttd) ..•. the meaning of this resolution fundamentally, Mr. Speaker, is that is this money being channelled into the areas where it is serving the best purposes in the prevention of crime ? You•ve heard it said on occasion here that we have these $18, OOO Royal Canadian Mounted Policemen throughout the province , and many of them, Mr. Speaker, are nothing but highway jockeys, looking for speedsters, tying up expensive equipment when it could be very well used for the purpose for which it is intended.

Not that I•m suggesting that these roadrunners shouldn•t be prosecuted to the nth degree in the interest of cutting down the massacre on our highways . This should be done by all means. But somehow or other, it is with the idea of exposing these sort of things that I have suggested this resolution that we•re discussing . Added to these costs that I•ve endeavoured to outline , as brief as they are , Mr. Speaker, is the money that•s provided by the people in free legal aid, aid to victims of crime , the maintenance of institutional housing for those that break the law. And we have been told on occasion , Mr.

Speaker, that for every individual that are in these inst itutions the people of the province , or the people of Canada if you like, have to pay that abominable sum of $1 0, OOO a year. So altogether I•m suggesting to you that the people are doing their part. I•m also endeavouring, Mr. Speaker, to ask for the examining of the en tire provincial structure of law enforcement.

If this is done, sir , I feel confident it will bring home to the public generally some of the enormous effort that is being put forward in the interests of life, limb and property of each and every individual in the province of Manitoba - anything, Mr. Speaker, anything that can be done, in my humble opinion , to bring it home to the people that something has got to be done. Mr. Speaker, we have to get the mes sage into every home and into every school and into every church that a policeman is the guardian of the peace . He•s not the fuzz , he•s a man to be respected. He must be better understood, Mr.

Speaker, and he must be assist ed at all levels in his task. Less than this, Mr. Speaker, is anarchy, and it's only around the corner. How I would like to see the man on the street again in uniform. Rarely do we see a policeman on the streets of Winnipeg . In days gone by, he was someone to speak to, even to say good morning to, and the very fact that he was in the vicinity, smartly clad and proud of his uniform, and an accomplished man, no one can ever tell the preventative of crime that his very appearance made on occasion . Now they•re riding around in automobiles.

Maybe they•ve got to get from point A to point B in a hurry, but I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that if there was a little more humanness between the man on the beat and Mr. John Q . Public, it would go a longway tobringing ••• into the thoughts of adults and children and avoid many of the little things that grow into big things as the years go by. Mr. Speaker, I applaud the recent announcement by the province that it was going to sit down with the federal authority in the interests of training people of native ancestry on reserves and in the North.

The Minister was good enough a day or two ago to mention that the personnel in the RCMP were going to be increased in the North. This is a good thought. Mr. Speaker, the history of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police speaks for itself in Western Canada. I feel honoured and privileged to have been part of that force , but those that went before me , Mr. Speaker, they depended on the native people of this country and they worked with them, worked with them faithfully. And I do not, for one, believe that the RCMP has lost the respect of the native population of this country. Mr. Speaker , this cannot be.

I remember a few short years ago when 50-odd members of the Mounted Police, 550 dogs policed the entire Northwest Territories, Mr. Speaker, and we were backed up by Indians and Es kimos respectively, special constables. And Mr. Speaker, we couldn•t have managed, we couldn•t have lived without them, without their assistance as interpreters and without their assist ance to fight the elements and maintain the peace in that great vast land. I mention only one name , Charlie Stewart, with the Mounted Police in Aklavik for some 45 years - a good, true and faithful servant, Mr. Speaker. What do we find today ?

A limited effort is being made by the province , it• s true. We have one chief reparted to have said at Rivers of the police effort being made by the province , that the native policemen would be nothing more than pimps for the RCMP. Mr. Speaker, I deny that. And on the other hand, we have Chief Stewart reported to have commented that these men would not generally measure up, Mr. Speaker, in the last war, citizens by the hundreds of thousands volunteered. Were

492 March 20, 1975 RESOLUTION 5 (MR. BILTON cont'd) , , •. they soldiers when they joined ? No, sir . And I stand witness here today that many of those people , the Indian-Metis people , volunteered and served valiantly during that War and they'll serve their own people under these circumstances , Their people need them in the worst way, I say plague on the houses of those people that will talk the way they1re talking these days .

Let1s get on with the job and work with these people , I'm told, sir, that there's some 450 students in the four universities of Indian and Metis parentage in the universities of Manitoba, Surely to God, amongst those people we can find the kind of material that the Indian people are crying out for on their reserve s. They need this police protection , They'll understand that police protection, But we•ve got to understand them. Weive got the Depot Division in Regina that's just got everything. The Saskatchewan Government are doing it, and I say to the Attorney- General, get on with the job, sir.

Don' t wait any longer. Letts do away with this bigotry . And I feel surely that nothing but success can come of it, You've got the Indians on the one hand saying no, and you've got the white people on the other hand saying no, Go right in between, pick them and go to work, and put them where they belong, and nothing but good can come of it, Time is short, Mr. Speaker. I'm told by the Indian Brotherhood that they're willing and ready to help and they'll do all they can, Mr. Speaker, to assist the department to get this effort under way. I appreciate the efforts of the committee, Mr.

Speaker, who recently submitted a report on the Northern Correction Report and its findings, There are some excellent suggestions and I trust the government will act on most of those suggestions. Mr. Speaker, the thrust of my resolution is simply arrived at with the view of airing the serious problem that is growing with the thought to bringing home to young and old alike, at all levels, that they must of necess ity assist in helping our overworked policemen who put it on the line, put in on the line every day they don a uniform. And with those few remarks, Mr.

Speaker, I appeal to the House to support me with this resolution to get on with the job. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Attorney-Gene ral, HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General)(Se lkirk): Mr. Speaker, I would like to offer a few words in response to the words uttered by the Honourable Member for Swan River. First, I would like to deal under the general heading of Indian and Metis and the police .

I think one of the most valuable experiences that Itve had within the last year was the opportunity to attend a conference which was organized mainly through the efforts of the Solicitor General for Canada in respect to natives and the criminal legal system, which was held in Edmonton the early part of February.

I think surely from that conference that one could not help but realize that there are some very basic problems that confront us in respect to ensuring that there is a development of a better liaison and understanding between the police and the native population, and particularly in respect to policing in our northern communities. One could not help but sense that the present system of policing in remote and in northern communities was alien to much of the native population.

There was a great deal of concern and criticism ex pressed in regard to the present structure as it existed insofar as policing is concerned, in particularly our northern communities and also in fact our southern native communities.

And a number of very sensible suggestions , I think, resulted from that conference, One is the realization that we must attempt to integrate into the RCMP those of native background, I had the opportunity last August 1974 to tour the RCMP Training School in Regina, and to my extreme disappointment I had to report that I did not observe a single native trainee at the RCMP School in Regina, so that we certainly have a long way to go in this entire situation of trying to bring into the policing in Western Canada, native people .

Now the province is presently, as the Honourable Member for Swan River made reference to, presently in the forefront of negotiating with the Federal Government an agreement which is commonly known as a 3B Agreement. 3B Agreement foresees and envisions the entry into the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, as an integral part of the RCMP, those of native background. In order to do this, there has to be some pretty basic changes undertaken in regard to present training program and recruitment program by the RCMP .

One, of course , it is very important that the existing qualifications be examined in order to ensure that the existence of those very qualifications as they presently stand do not prevent the entry into the force of native people . And, Mr. Speaker, unfortunately they do. The standard of education that is required for a trainee in the RCMP is Grade 12 education. Heigh t .and weight requirements are also of such

March 20, 1975 493 RESOLUTION 5 (MR, PAWLEY cont•d) , •. ,a nature that they prevent native people from entering into the RCMP .

So that under the proposals in respect to 3B Program that are prese ntly being developed in order to ensure that there is the entry of native trainees into our police forces, the existing qualifications have to be altered in order to ensure that we do have a larger number of native people in our forces, For, if the present qualifications continue to exist as they are, without alteration, there certainly is no doubt that we will be very unsuccessful in attempting to obtain what we are seeking.

And the honourable member says in fact that since the RCMP brought women into the force , then l•m sure that they can modify their - as I take from his words - the qualifications in order to ensure that more of our disadvantaged people have the opportunity to enter into policing.

Certainly the complaint that one hears from native people is that too often those that are policing in native communities, in-· northern areas, come from the south, They come from a background which has had very little understanding of native culture or language, and imme-· diately you do have a gap which exists right from the very beginning , And unfortunately in too many instances in our northern communities the RCMP have not become involved in community liaison work, as the Honourable Member for Swan River mentions.

One proceeds to some communities in northern areas where you are told that there is excellent involvement, where the young RCMP officer is involved in coaching the young boys in the community , for instance , in hockey and other sports , where he is deeply involved in community work, and one can see reflected in his work a proportionate percentage of decrease in juvenile delinquency in that community because of the example that officer is rendering to the community .

In another community where you don•t have this type of involvement, then unfortunately you have much greater difficulty insofar as crime and juvenile delinquency, and all the other problems occur.

And I feel assured that if we can, in fact, bring native people into the courses under a program which will deal with recruitment, which will deal with training which will attempt to bring into the programming, insofar as students at the RCMP College is concerned, some better involve ment insofar as understanding native culture , native language, and more emphasis in respect on understanding the native himself, that we•ll be able to proceed a long way in order to meet the problems which presently occur insofar as developing a better relationship in that impor tant area of our policing, I would like to also just comment again in general in regard to crime .

I think that, Mr. Speaker, there are no easy solutions to crime . I happen to believe that the rate of crime, the rate of incidence of violence, the rate of incidence of theft, relate , to a very large extent, to the economics of the situation at any particular time. I think, Mr, Speaker, one will note if you examine the incidence of crime from one part of Canada to the other, from one province to another, it will depend a great deal on, first, the pace of urbanization. Certainly with urban de

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-2-19
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Volume / chapter	30th 2nd hansardpdf 19.pdf
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