Manitoba Hansard — 11 June 1998 (Sitting 63B, 36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-63b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 63B -1: 30 p.m., Thursda y, June 11, 1998

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Mariann1: CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louist:, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Alben: DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, Da, id FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN , Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon.

McGIFFORD, Diant: MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hoa. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirt y-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Political Aff"IIiation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D. P. P.C. N.D.P. N. D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N. D.P.

4355 LEGISLATI VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, June 11, 1998 The House met at 1: 30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Rail Line Abandonment Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of P. Cayle, S. Peters, S. Ross and oth ers praying th at th e Le gislative Assembly of Manitoba request th at th e provincial governm ent go on record requesting that CN and CPR do not proceed with any discontinuance of lines until the record has been tabl ed, th at being the Estey Grain Transportation report.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Rail Line Abandonment Madam Speaker: I have reviewed th e petition of th e honourable member for Swan River (M s. Wowchuk). It complies with th e rules and th e practices of th e House (by leave). Is it the will of th e House to have the petition read? Dispense.

WHEREAS aff ordable transportation is a critical com ponent of grain production; and

WHEREAS under the Crow rate benefit, Manitoba was the cheapest place on the Prairies from which to ship grain but became the most expensive fo llowing the abolishment of the Crow rate; and

WHEREAS the Canada Transportation Act proclaimed on July 1, 19 96, gave railways the ability to discontinue and scrap branch lines without public input; and

WHEREAS several lines were targeted immediately by CN fo r abandonment; and

WHEREAS CN gave notice on May 6, 19 98, that the Erwood Subdivision will be discontinued in 1998; and

WHEREAS the loss of this line would severely impact upon the communities of Bowsman and Birch River as well as surrounding communities; and

WHEREAS in 19 97, western grain fa rmers lost millions of dollars due to backlogs and delays by the major railways; and

WHEREAS as a result the fe deral government set up the Estey Grain Transportation Review which is scheduled to release a report later this year. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assem bl y of Manitoba request that the provincial government go on record requesting CN and CPR to not proceed with any discontinuance of lines until that report has been tabled. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Acting Chairperson): The Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again.

I move, seconded by th e honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dy ck), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. * (1 335) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 202-The Protection for Persons in Care Act Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by th e member for Swan River (M s. Wowchuk), th at leave be given to introduce Bil1 202, The Protection for Persons in Care Act;

Loi sur Ia protection des personnes recevant des soins, and th at th e same be now received and read a first time.

4356 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 11 , 19 98 Motion presented. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, this private member's bill has been introduced largely in response and arising out of the situation that occurred at Holiday Haven and other potential situations in nursing homes. Basically the essence of this bill is that it makes mandatory the requirements on employees and others to report any kind of abuse in an institution.

It also provides protection for employees and others who are employed in that institution from any action that may lie against them from management and others with respect to the reporting of that abuse. It is simi lar to legislation that is in effect in oth1�r jurisdictions, and given some of the ci rcumstances that have occurred in the past in Manitoba, we think it will be a useful addition to the protection of people in care, be it personal care homes, hospitals and otherwise in the province of Manitoba and will be useful for those caregivers and others who are in those institutions.

I look forward to its passage in the Assembly. Thank you. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery where we have this afternoon fifteen Grade 5 students from Holland Elementary School under the direction ofMrs. Shelley Wallis. This school is located in the constituency of the hono urable member for Gladstone (Mr. Rocan). Al so, seated in the public gallery, we have with us today the Honourable Robert Ssebunya, Minis ter of Health, Kingdom ofBuganda, Kampala, Uganda.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Community Colleges Enrollment Rate Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): In 19 90, Mr. Mauro chain!d a committee dealing with skills . training and developmen t here in Manitoba. He condemned the low enrollment in Manitoba community colleges. He said, and I quote: this is a tragic waste of human talent, and we have an increasing demand for skilled workers here in the province of Manitoba.

He recommended that we proceed quickly to higher enrollment rates in our community colleges to meet the rising demands of skilled workers in our economy. I would lik e to ask the min ister respons ible or the acting Acting Premier: why has the government not impleme nted the Mauro recommendations, and what has been the impact on young people and on the economy of Manitoba? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): The member is correct in that there is a growing demand for graduates from colleges. To that end, Madam Speaker, we have substantially increased our funding to colleges.

The Council on Post Secondary Education, in co-operation with college presidents and industry leaders, is working together with people from Industry, Trade and Tourism to help identify and speed up the process of producing certain high-demand trades that are growing very rapidly in our strong economy here in Manitoba. We have, as well, a new apprenticeship model, which has been acclaimed widely throughout the province by all involved groups, that pled ges to double the number of apprentices in Manitoba within the next three years.

Many of those trades training, of course, take their class compon ent in colleges, and those demands for skilled labour are again becoming ever increas ingly prevalent as our economy becomes more and more strong in a very rapid way. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, after Mauro reported, the government took a Tuxedo chainsaw to the community coll ege program and elim inated and cut some tens of mil lions of dolla rs in comm unity college support.

In fact, the number of people enrolled in community college has, according to the latest Stats Canada report, declined from 5.9 percent of kids between the ages of 18 and 21 here in Manitoba to 5.6 percent. Other provinces, like B.C., have gone up over 15 percent; Alberta is over 18 percent; Ontari o is over 20 percent. Why have you failed to impleme nt the Mauro, and why do you have so many young people that want

June 11 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 4357 to be trained and so many employers who need skilled workers? Why are you failing thos e people in terms of not implementing the Mauro recommendati ons? Mrs. Mcintosh: It is very theatrical to be dramati c and overstate your position, and that is done frequently on the other side. The fact is that a joint committee between Ind ustry, Trade and Tourism and Education and Training has indeed been ident ifying and working with industry and people to ensure greater and greater enrollment in high-skill-demand occupations for training.

Madam Speaker, the member talks only about those up to age 21, knowing as he should full well that the majority of people entering apprenticeship training, for example, are in their mid to late 20s, just one statistic that he might want to add to his list to give an accurate assessment of how many people are interested in obtaining training for skills in the trades . Madam Speaker, we are committed to doubling the apprenticeship training.

We have substantia lly increased our funding to colleges, and I think if he tal ked more closely with some of the people involved in the colleges, he might see a different picture emerging than that which he cares to present today. * (1 34 0) Mr. Doer: These are Stats Canada numbers on community colleges that show that some provinces in Canada are going ahead in terms of skilled training and some provinces are fal ling behind. Regrettably, this province is falling behind, and we hear it from young people who are waiting in lines every day. We hear it from employers who cannot get skilled trainers every day.

What planet is this government and this minister on? They ta lk about drifting committ ees, Madam Speaker. What we need is some strong strategy to have a global economy that deals with a trained and well skilled workforce, not the failure of the low-wage policy of members opposite. I would like to ask the minister: in 19 93, former Premier Duff Roblin reported to the people of Manitoba that we must double the participation rate in community colleges-the statistic that I quoted-within five years to keep up with the growing demand for skilled workers. It is now five years .

Has the government doubled that rate, or has it again failed the people of this province for the future economy? Mrs.

Mcintosh: You know, Madam Spe aker, I find it very interesting that when our apprenticeship announcement was made last month, to overwhelming acceptance by all facets of the community, with an intent to double in the next three years, which is entirely possible under the plans that have been laid down, having input in the design of that strategy from all facets of labour and management in both sides of industry, high -trades training, I find it ironic that at the time the members of the opposition had nothing to say because it was such a good-news story.

The other thing I find interes ting, Mad am Speaker, is that not one question on this supposedly important topic to them was asked in the Est imates of expendi tures by the opposition. We had a brand new apprenticeship model; we had an intens e increase in funding to colleges; we have a demand for high-skills training, and not one question, when we had time to explore it, was asked in Est imates on this topic. So I say, Madam Speaker, that I question why this is coming forward at this time, other than a desire to be on the record in a way that implies they have a concern and interest in this topic.

Community Colleges Waiting Lists Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley) : Madam Speaker, the bottom line for young Manitobans is that in this province, community college enrollment is going down. Elsewhere across the country, if l can get this across to the minister, it is going up. It is going down here; it is going up elsewhere. The Minister of Education and all her many predecessors have in fact le ft us with a system which cannot meet the needs of young Manitobans and cannot meet the needs of employers.

I would like the minister to explain today why, at Red River Community College alone, there are over 880 people on waiting lists. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Not accepting any of the member's

4358 LEGISLATIVE AS SEM BLY OF MANITOBA June II , 1998

preamble as accurate and correct, I would indicate that if the member is talking about the current waiting lists at colleges, which I presume she is, as a person who says she knows a lot about education, she would know that at this time of the year the waiting lists are swollen because we have students applying for three and four different courses and programs, and they will take one of them and drop the other three once all the applications are in. So, at this time of the year, we expect to find swolle n waiting list s. Then, as time goes on and people are accepted, those lists will change.

Those lists, of course, are tradi ti onal. There always is a swollen waiting list at this time of year. The Council on Post-Secondary Education and colleges use those lists as an indication of student interest. They compare them with the interest in admitting to the demand in the marketplace for those occupations. Madam Speaker, this is not a new thing that she is talking about, but perhaps since she did not take the chance to ask questions in Est imates about this topic, she would not have a chance to know that. Ms.

Friesen: Madam Speaker, could the minist er explain why Red River Community Coll ege alone has 99 students waiting for the computer training program, 45 waiting for cooks, 51 on a motor vehicle techni cian list, 4 7 pipefit ters, 78 welding positions-each of those a high-demand occupation, according to the minister's own list. Why is that happening? Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, obviousl y people are applying for those courses because they want to take them. That is the short answer to her question. The member may not realize- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mrs.

Mcintosh: Thank you, Madam Speaker. What the member is probably unaware of is that the Council on Post-Secondary Education has approved funding to enhance many of those existing college programs, including computer technology, including health care aide, including geographic information systems, including swine technicians and some of the new demands that are coming on stream. They have others under consideration as they review the expressions of int erest by students and the market need that is shown compared to the numbers of students interested in ta king part.

As well, they check to see how many of those names are on three or four different lists, because we do know that students have traditional ly and historically and st ill do apply for more than one program and then will drop off some once they have been accepted in one of the others. So there are a lot of things that we use those stats for. I indicate, as well, that extra funding has been put into a lot of these programs in response to perceived and real need. * (1 345) Government Initiatives Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister to explain, because it is puzzli ng, why her government refused to accept Mauro's recommendation of a planning process to identify skills and education, why they ignored Roblin's five-year plan that was offered to them, and why, after two years of interim committees and transition committees and Council on Post-Secondary Education, the only plan that this government seems to have for the community colleges is a 68 percent rise in tuition fees to the year 2002. Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, the members opposite are always wanting to say that there is no plan and there has been no action, and that is wrong. In terms of colleges and- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Coll eges moving to sel f-governance have, themsel ves, laid in place plans which have been shared with the Council on Post-Secondary Education.

There is always a constant analysis of market needs at the college level, at the board level, which are now self governing boards and-[interj ection] Oh, really. This is unconscionable.

June 11, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 4359 Working in partne rship with the council, the council itself has been identifying, particularly with computer technology, where those high needs are. The money that we put into colleges has continually been increased. As well, not just with colleges, the council has also been in communication and partnering with universities on the need for things such as computer technology at a higher and more sophisticated level.

Madam Speaker, many of the membe r's assumptions are erroneous, and I do regret, and I must say again, that we had ample opportunity to go into intense detail on this in Estimates , and she did not ask one single question to indicate this now sudden brand new interest she has in colleges. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Order, please. Prior to recognizing the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), with the indulgence of the House, may I ple ase int roduce a school that has arrived.

I would like to take this opportunity to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public ga llery where we have forty-four Grade 5 stud ents from Dr. F.L.W. Hamilton School under the direction ofMrs. Atsum i Odaguchi. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. Crown Attorneys Resources Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Justice.

First it was the victims, then the prosecutors, Jaw professors, even defence la wyers, and now the Associate Chief Justice who have publicly ex pressed frustrations and warned about this govemm ent's-that self-proclaims it is tough on crime Jack of support for Prosecutions. Would the minister, who said just last month that the government has consiste ntly provided the Crowns with the resources that the y require, te ii us what it takes for a reality check for this minister? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I can point to a very concrete example of the support that this government gave to prosecutors by increasing the number of prosecutors substanti ally as a result of the Lavoie inquiry, and that process is proceeding. Indeed, other supports have been provided to the prosecutors which are being put in place through the review.

In respect of the correctional aspect, we are in the process of building a maximum security unit, and this government continues to be very, very supportive of the Urban Sports Camp Program, which we have just recently announced the opening of a new one in West Broadway. Mr.

Mackintosh: After that answer, would the minister te ll Manitobans what is it: did he in fact know about the real state of this government's anticrime efforts but hope to rely on cover-ups, denials, the la test being his denial of what prosecutor Ed Sloane said: you are setting trial dates in January 1999, or does he just not know what is going on? Mr. Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, that is a very interesting question. I have here a letter from his colleague the member for Burrows (Mr.

Martindale), who addresses the Director of Public Safety, talking about our Crime Watch program , saying: it is my understandi ng that the rural Crime Watch programs have been very successful in rural Manitoba. I would indicate that, again, that is one program where we have demonstrated, even to the satisfacti on of the member for Burrows, that these programs are proceeding very, very well . * (1 350) Mr. Mackintosh: We will sure sleep soundly tonight, Madam Speaker.

A question for the minister is, and it is on the minds of Manitobans: is the minister now hiring another lawyer at our expense to broker a deal, this time with Associate Chief Justice Jeffrey Oliphant, so he can speak on his behalf from now on? Mr. Toews: As I indicated in my interview with one of the media, I know that it is not up to me to put words in the mouth of a judge- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

4360 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA June 11 , 19 98 Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Justice, to complete his response. Mr. Toews: What I am always concerned about is, if there is an expression of concern from the bench in respect of a particular issue, that my department responds to it in a timely fashion. I understand in this particular case the judge expressed some concern over an issue about an application not being signed by the Attorney General or the Deputy Attorney Gen eral, which is done in this province.

I am advised in fact that the case law and the practice here has been that necessary const!nt is not signed until after the dangerous offender's application is in fact started, and that is consistent with the provisions of the Criminal Code. Sayisi Dene First Nation Housing Shortage Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): I rise on some very important questions for the Acting Premier. Half of the members from the Sayisi Dene First Nation at Tadoule Lake have had to leave their reserve because of the critical housing shortages that they are experiencing in that community.

This winter, because of the mild weather that we have had, and we raised this last week I believe, 12 units were not able to get up to the Sayisi Dem� community because of the condition of the roads. I would like to ask the De puty Premier or the Acting Premie:r whethe r or not this government will work with the First Nation of the Sayisi Dene at Tadoule Lake and the federal government in addressing this very important issue. Hon. David Newman (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Madam Speaker, of course we will work with the Say isi Dene in this situation in relation to the federal government.

We have not been approached in this connection at this time, but I welcome inter vention by myself and my department in any efforts to work in a partnership way with the Sayisi Dene in this connection. Mr. Robinson: Madam Speaker, last week we raised the issue about the cost of living in northern Manitoba and the high cost of fuel, perhaps I 00 percent greater than it is in the city of Winnipeg. I would like to ask the same minister that responded to my first question-in Tadoule Lake, because of the lack of a winter road this year, only fuel went to the community and no food went to this community this spring.

We have elders, youth and citizens in this community, and it cannot be terme d anything less than a crisis situation. I want to ask the same minister what assurances he can give to the First Nations with respect to deeming this a crisis situation in Tadoule Lake. Mr. Newman: Madam Speaker, I welcome all the considerations, all the factors, all the circumstances to be brought to my att ention at the earliest opportunity in my role co-ordinating matters on behalf of aboriginal people within our gove rnment.

I will be very pleased to the n ensure that the information is taken up with the appropriate departments and indeed othe r governments, the federal government in particular, and that appropriate and prompt ef fective response is encourage d to deal with what is obviously, in the mind of the honourable member for Rupertsland, a very serious and urgent matter. I can appreciate the signifi cance of godlike inte rvention in access to communities in the wintertime and how this lifeline being disrupted can cause very severe consequences to any one of these remote communities. * (1355 ) Meeting Request Mr.

Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, I want to give the minister that opportunity. Chief Gl adys Powderhorn of the Sayisi Dene First Nation is in the gallery this afternoon. I would like to ask the minister if he will meet with her immediately after Question Period. Hon. David Newman (Minister responsible for Nativ e Affairs): Madam Speaker, I would welcome the honour and privilege of meeting with the represent ative from the Sayisi Dene, and I would certainly invite the honourable member for Rupertsland to accompany me on that visit. I would be available at three o'clock, after 2:30 maybe.

Lif e Leases Property Taxes-Education Levy Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance (M r.

June 11 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 436 1 Stefanso

n) or possibly the Minister of Housing, whoever chooses to answer the question. Manitobans acknowledge the responsibility of paying taxes is important. What they do ask is that government apply fair taxes. My question to the minister is: under the life-lease program, I was informed that in fact they are exempt from having to pay in some situations the school portion of the property tax. I am wondering if I can get confirmation on that fact. Hon.

Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): I believe what the member is referring to is the eligibility under what they call the EIPH Act, Eld erly and Infirm Persons' Housing Act, that allows them to be eligible for not paying school tax on that property. In last year's le gisl ation, if the member recalls, there was a change in the EIPH Act in which we restricted the sizes of units that were eligib le for the eligib ility to apply under that act, which gives them the ability to go for a school tax rebate.

If the units that are built comply to those size regulations, they still would be eligible to apply for the licence. The licence it self is then brought forth to get the eligibility for the rebate on the school tax. If they are above the square-footage size, they are not eligible. Mr. Lamoureux: I look to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefa nson), and I ask the Minister of Finance if, in fact, he supports that seniors in one category, of the same financial capabilities, not having to pay a school portion of a tax while other seniors that live in residentia l homes have to pay a school tax.

Does this Minister of Finance support that? Mr. Reimer: I believe that there is a rebate available for seniors that are in their housing and in rental accommodations. I believe that there is that set up for the seniors right now. To reiterate what the member is referring to in regard to the life-lease situations, if there were existing licences granted under the old act, they would be grandfathered and would stay in effect. It is not the intent to punish or to relinquish these acts-pardon me, the conditions that are under the existing act, under the previous ones.

It applies to new construction under the life-lease philosophy, and their size restrictions are the ones that will dictate whether or not they would get a licence under the EIPH Act. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, a very simple question, and I ask for the Minister of Finance to answer the questi on. Do we have seniors in the province of Manitoba that are not having to pay property tax towards the school, and at the same time individual seniors of the same financial income that do have to pay it? Is that in fact the case? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I think, as the member for Inkster knows, there are various programs that do affect people in different ways. Obviously, the life-lease initiative was a program to encourage and promote the devel opment of housing for seniors. I believe that has worked reasonably well in our province. Some adjustments were made in the last session of the Leg islature, as the Minister of Housing has already outlined, but that is part of the purpose behind the life-lease initiative.

So there are various initiatives that do affect people in different ways, sometimes depending on income sit uations, someti mes depending on the type of accommodation they choose and so on. That is nothing new to any governm ents, whether it is here in Ma nitoba or across Canada, the objective being to provide proper, affordable housing and accommodations for all Manitobans. * (14 00) Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Order, please. I wonder if I might ask for the indulgence of the House, once again, to introduce an additional school.

I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have ten Grades 9 and 10 students from Community Bible Fell owship Christian School under the direction of Miss She lley Dalm an. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). On behalf of all honourable members , I welcome you this afternoon.

4362 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 11 , 1998 Sayisi Dene First Nation T1•eaty Land Entitlement Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): My questions are for the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs. The minister admit ted earlier this week regarding the Sayisi Dene that the f.ederal governm ent is st ill refusing to allow any TLE land to be selected outside of Manitoba. Will he table today any correspondence on this issue that he has, along with his proposal for dealing with this issue? Hon.

David Newman (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Madam Speaker, I do not know for a fact exactly what the position of the federal government is at this moment in relation to the availability of land outside our jurisdiction to satisfy TLE requests. I invite the honourable member for Flin Flon to share with me any information he might have in that respect .

In the conversation that I had with the federal minister in relation to that, when we also shared in writing our position supportive of the Sayisi Dene, we were instructed through our respective officials that they were not prepared to look at extrajurisdicti onal terr itories to satiisfy sett lements within Manitoba. If that position has changed, it will be fresh and welcome news to me. Mr.

Jennissen: Madam Speaker, to the same minister: has the minister obtained any indication that the federal governmen t is pn�pared to act on any of the recommen dations of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Pe oples and negotiate with the Sayisi Dene and other First Nations people who suffered incalculable human and material damage when they were relocated against their will? Mr. Newman: Madam Speaker, I have received no such assurances and indeed no official or informal response as to what position the federal government is going to take in relation to the Sayisi Dene. Foster Care Tf�mporary Placements Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, in February 1997 there were 156 children, on average, every night in short-term emergency placements, although short term is st retching it. Some were there for up to a year. Today the CEO of Winnipeg Child and Family Services says there are 160 to 190 children in short-term emergency placements. I believe this is a serious indication that this government has done nothing in the past year to address this problem in spite of it being brought to their at tention on numerous occasions.

I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services: what is she going to do to implement the recommen dati on of the operational review from over a year ago that said that increased financial inducements are required to maintain foster parents? Will this minister act on these recommendati ons and reduce the unacceptably high number of children in emergency placements? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question.

I know that I certainly do not understand all of the issues surrounding every child that is taken into care, and I am sure that my honourable friend does not understand all the issues either and some of the reasons for some of the placements tha t are short term and long term. But I want to indicate that it was our government that commissioned the operational review because we knew that things needed to be looked at very carefully and we needed to look at how we could better deli ver child welfare in the city of Winnipeg.

So it is something that both the agency and my depart ment participated in, and we have not been standi ng st ill. I know that we have been working aggressi vely with the agency around hotel placements. Very often, if children are abandoned and picked up on the st reet in the middle of the night, they are going to need some emergency placement until we can sort things out. It is not unrealistic to think tha t that kind of support is going to be needed for children. I will continue in my next answer to inform members of the opposition on some of the things we have done. Mr.

Martindale: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services what she is doing to reduce the number of children in shelters, which have grown from 32 to 81 per night. Will she do something in a proactive way, other than announcing another pilot project, to help foster parents, to keep children out of

June 11, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4363 emergency placements? What is she going to do about this serious problem of children, most of whom are under 11 years old, in emergency placements? Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I think it is important for all Manitobans to understand that the reasons children are apprehended are because they have been left alone, abandoned, neglected or abused. The key for us is to try to ensure that kind of thing does not happen, that parents have the tools that are required to parent in a way that is not going to lead to the need for children to be apprehended.

That is exactly why we are putting all of the money into early intervention. We do not want children to become someone's case in the Child and Family Services system. We want to prevent them from ever getting into the Child and Family Services system. Physician Resources Statistics-W innipeg Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, for a number of years we have known that there has been a serious shortage of physicians in northern Manitoba and rural Manitoba. The provincial government, the associate deputy minister has said publicly that there are enough physicians in the city of Winnipeg in fact.

I want the minister to confirm whether or not the minister agrees with his own report prepared by the Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation, a report prepared for the Physician Resource Committee, of which the minister's department is a part, that in fact Winnipeg has a surplus of 102 to 124 general practitioners. Is the government planning on that kind of basis with respect to that report? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, with respect to that report or any others, they obviously are snapshots in time, and there have been a host of factors that affect physician supply in any one particular part of the province. The infusion of doctors this winter into rural Manitoba and northern Manitoba after our recruitment drive obviously stabilized that situation. Changes in physician remuneration around the country in a very competitive marketplace have changed the situation somewhat in Winnipeg. So these are not static situations.

They do change from time to time, and we have to respond accordingly. Recruitment/Retention Strategy Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, after several years of false starts, is the minist�r prepared to outline for all Manitobans and for thts Legislature what the government plan is with �espect to physician, not just recruitment, but somethmg :e.ry, very crucial that has not been looked at, phystctan retention in the province of Manitoba? Will he release the unreleased secret physician resource plan? Will he outline what the plan is specifically for the government?

Because people not only have trouble getting doctors in northern and rural Manitoba but now they are having trouble getting doctors in Winnipeg. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, one of the elements in the retention issue, particularly of family physicians, which we flagged over the course of the winter in our discussions with the Manitoba Medical Association is in the decisions that they took with respect to allocation within the fee schedule.

This advantaged many of our family practitioners and was in fact one of the reasons why we have had an exodus in this particular area as physicians leave for more lucrative places to practice medicine. We have attempted to address that, and we trust that it will be addressed as a priority within the arbitration process that we have now entered into with the Manitoba Medical Association.

As I have indicated, I think what is key to dealing with physician resource issues is developing a system with the regional health authorities that will be far more responsive in our recruitment efforts to fill gaps and to develop the kinds of immediate needs, whether it be remuneration or other supports, to assist in retaining physicians when we have them here. * (1410 ) Foreign-Trained Physicians Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, can the minister explain to this House why the minister has

4364 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 11, 1998 yet to reply to our plan of six months ago in order to train foreign-trained but Canadian physicians to occupy positions, why the minister has not replied, why there has been absolutely no movement on this front? Can the minister explain why this year I am advised that there were no positions available for Canadian foreign trained doctors in terms of the residency programs? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I want to make sure my answer is accurate to the House.

I have some advice that that may not be an accurate reflection of the residency positions, but I will undertake to track that down to provide that to the member for Kildonan. First Nation Communities Housing Shortages Mr. Steve Aslliton (Thompson): Yesterday, in addition to attending the CR TC hearings with my colleague the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson), where the absenc<e of the government minister was very noticeable, we also had the opportunity to talk to housing co-ordinators from all over northern Manitoba, from First Nations communities.

Madam Speake:r, to say there is a crisis in housing in First Nations communities is an understatement. What I would like to ask the Acting First Minister, or I guess the acting Acting First Minister, is what action the provincial government will be taking to work with the MKO and other aboriginal organizations to get the federal government to recognize that we are facing a crisis situation where it would take a minimum of$450 million to deal with the backlog of 4,550 homes on the waiting list in First Nations communities. What action will this provincial government take to speak on behalf of First Nations? Hon.

David Newman (Minister of Native Affairs): Madam Speaker, we have indicated that we are prepared to partner with the First Nations leaders in relation to the fedleral government and indeed to work within the provindal government on this issue. I might say, in a meeting at which Grand Chief Bushie, Grand Chief Flett and others, including Chief Ron Evans, were present, before we left Quebec we made that offer and in fact of f ered to take that to the federal meeting and sought them to prepare a briefing of the representatives that would be going with our delegation.

They opted not to and opted also not to have us bring that to the table. But when they are ready, we are going to be there with them. We agree that housing is the most significant priority issue in relation to First Nations people in this province at this time, and we want to work with them in resolving that issue as quickly and ef fectively as possible. Northern Affairs Communities Housing Shortages Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): As a follow-up question, Madam Speaker, I would like to ask what the provincial government will be doing with the very difficult circumstances facing Northern Affairs communities, which are directly under the jurisdiction of this government. I would like to ask the Minister of Housing what programs the Minister of Housing is going to both enhance and implement in Northern Affairs communities to ensure that they can also deal with the desperate need for adequate housing, this, in the year 1998, when many people are living in Third World conditions in northern Manitoba. Hon.

Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): I think we on this side share the same concerns that the member for Thompson has in the fact that housing and the priority of housing in the North is something that we have tried to address through the federal government through the Minister of Northern Affairs. I have had the opportunity to meet with some of the ministers on various occasions on the national level, and this is a topic that has come up for discussion. I have also had the opportunity to meet with the Minister of Housing federally, Mr. Gagliano.

It is a topic that we bring up constantly because of the problem, and the biggest problem is that the federal government has pulled itself out of the housing participation market in all of Canada. It is something that we have lobbied the federal government to get back into, in a sense of recognizing their responsibility to be part of the housing problems and to be in partnership with this. At this time, the federal government has said that they are in fact withdrawing or trying to withdraw completely out of the housing and the public housing

June 11 , 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4365 market, but it is something that we have talked on, on a national basis. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Manitoba Robot Games Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to inform members of the House about some very intelligent and creative students of Sturgeon Creek High School. Recently at the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature, Sturgeon Creek entered 12 robots into the Manitoba Robot Games, and they placed first and second place in both the Sumo Wrestling and the Atomic Hockey categories.

They also placed first in the Seek and Capture category. Two students, Michael Alexander and Chris Johnson, were the designers and operators of the first-place Sumo Wrestlers, and they received $500 in prize money to attend the Western Canada Robot Games in Calgary in November of this year. John Sparham, a Grade 11 student who placed first in Atomic Hockey, said that "the Manitoba Robot Games provide an ideal opportunity for students to gain valuable job readiness skills." Madam Speaker, these students and their teacher, Mr.

Y akimoski, worked through their lunch hours and after school to come this far in this program. On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to wish these students the very best ofluck as they prepare for the games in Calgary. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Phone Rates-Northern Manitoba Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): The CRTC hearing into phone service in a high-cost area, namely northern Manitoba, was very important, given the move towards full-cost recovery for rural and northerners. NDP MLAs Eric Robinson and Steve Ashton both presented brief s, noting that northerners are most at risk.

MTS, when it was publicly owned, as a policy, ensured that local phone rates were the lowest in North America. Since 1995, as a result of privatization, local phone rates have gone up nearly 50 percent and are scheduled to go up even further. Over 80 percent of the population is unemployed in many of our First Nations communities, with the majority of people living on social assistance. Basic telephone service is a luxury item for the thousands of First Nation residents who face Third World housing conditions, food costs as much as 90 percent higher than Winnipeg, and social assistance cuts of 21 percent.

The actual costs of providing basic monthly phone service to most northern communities range between $40 and $55 per month. If full cost recovery occurs, the numbers of people having phones will drop even further. Communities such as Pukatawagan, Lac Brochet, Brochet and Tadoule Lake must put up with spotty telephone service now. Granville Lake only has a single pay phone. Virtually every telephone call that people make from these communities is a long-distance call. For all of these reasons, northern Manitobans were strongly opposed to the sale of MTS.

Now even the Manitoba government admits that service needs to be improved in rural and remote areas and that local rates need to be protected. Having sold off MTS for at least $500 million less than it was worth, the government of Manitoba now says it is up to CR TC to keep rates low and improve service in rural and remote communities. The communications advances of the past few years have the potential to truly give some of our most isolated communities in the country the ability to reach the outside world. So far, much of the revolution is not reaching the North because of costs.

South Indian Lake, for example, has trouble accessing the Internet because of the long-distance charges. As presenters told the CR TC this week, telecommunications- Madam Speaker: Order, please. *

(1420) Manitoba Seniors Week Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): I rise today in honour of the seniors in Manitoba. This is Manitoba's Seniors Week, and we celebrate the initiative that seniors are taking to be part and become part of our community and community development. As we all know, our forefathers came to this country and opened up our country. The seniors that we honour today were part of

4366 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 11, 1998 setting an historical pattern in this country and specifically in this province, developing rural communities as well as urban communities, establishing them and establishing systems such as education, health, and all those kinds of things to ensure that our quality of life would be enhanced. Altona celebrated, on Tuesday, an event which some 300 seniors from across southern Manitoba attended and celebrated not only their being there but celebrated the economy and celebrated the wealth of this nation and this country.

So we honour today, and I ask all members to join me in congratulating the seniors and the tremendous amount of work and effort that our seniors have put into this province in ensuring that our future generations will in fact have a home that is second to none in all of the world. Thank you, Madam Speaker. HUG Program Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): This morning I was honoured to attend the Westview Elementary School to participate in the HUG program. This exchange program began in 1986 and involves the English/ Hebrew, the English/Ukrainian and the English/German bilingual programs.

The HUG exchange program is hosted each year by one of these participating groups. This year Westview Elementary played host to this important event. There were hundreds of students from five schools, including Donwood School, R.F. Morrison, Margaret Park, Brock-Corydon and the host, Westview Elementary School. I would like to thank the Westview principal, Jason Jones, and Mr. Albert Christ and the organizing committee of HUG.

We are proud of their efforts in bringing students of these bilingual programs together to share their language and culture, to appreciate one another's uniqueness and to build greater friendship through a mutual understanding of our collective heritages. ORI>ERS OF THE DAY (Continued) House Business Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, since Bill 36 has passed second reading in this House, since it has been passed, there will be a meeting of the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs on Monday morning, 9:30 lasting till 12:30 to deal with that bill.

There are a number of presentations to be made. That committee will also sit at 7 p.m. on that day to deal with Bill 36, June 15, 1998. Then, if necessary, that committee would sit on Tuesday evening at 7 p.m. to deal with Bill 36, as well. Madam Speaker: For the information of the House, the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs will meet on Monday, June 15, 9:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. to consider Bill 36, and again at 7 p.m. on the evening of the same day, Monday, June 15, and, if necessary, again on Tuesday, June 16 at 7 p.m. Mr.

McCrae: Further to that, at 12:30 on Monday, June 15, if there is a presentation half completed or not yet completed, I would like this committee to have the mandate to allow the sitting to be extended beyond 12:30 to allow the completion of a person's presentation, and maybe I need to say that here now. I do not know if the committee can decide that on its own if we give it a mandate to sit until 12:30 p.m. That is why I raise it, Madam Speaker. I simply would like to see that flexibility in there. Madam Speaker: The Speaker will not repeat that directive. That is not required.

The committee has the autonomy and authority to establish the extension of the time line mentioned by the honourable government House leader. Mr. McCrae: Well, that certainly makes it better, does it not, Madam Speaker? I told you this would not be happening, but here we go again.

I wish to obtain the unanimous consent of the House, notwithstanding the sequence for consideration ofEstimates as outlined in Sessional Paper 142 tabled on March 24, 1998, and subsequently amended, to consider in Room 254 the Estimates of the Department of Health, transferred from Room 255, on completion of the Estimates of the Children and Youth Secretariat. This change is to apply until further notice. Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to alter the sequence for consideration of the Estimates in Room 254 to deal with the Department of

June 11, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4367 Health, transferred from Room 255, on completion of the Estimates of the Children and Youth Secretariat? This change to apply until further notice. Agreed? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: Sometimes it is a good thing the little comments of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) are not on the record, because one might be tempted to respond to them and- An Honourable Member: And you just did. Mr. McCrae: No, I did not. Anyway, we attempt to deal with these matters in a co-operative fashion between the House leaders, and I think thus far we have made some progress.

Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Madam Speaker do now-[interjection] Oh, yes. Committee Changes Madam Speaker : The honourable member for Gimli, with committee changes. Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs (for Monday, June 15, 1998, at 9:30 a.m.) be amended as follows: the member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer) for the member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings); the member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) for the member for Roblin-Russell (Mr.

Derkach); the member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe) for the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae); and the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render) for the member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson). Motion agreed to. Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs be amended as follows: Osborne (Ms. McGifford) for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), for Monday, June 15, 1998, for 9: 30. Thank you very much. Motion agreed to. * (14 30) Mr.

McCrae: -leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Madam Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable government House leader, seconded by the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Agreed? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CHIL DREN AND YOUTH SECRETARIAT Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please.

Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Children and Youth Secretariat. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 34 .1. Children and Youth Secretariat (

a) Salary and Employee Benefits on page 20 of the Estimates book. Shall this item pass? Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I just want to pick up where we left off yesterday. I think the minister had been giving some explanation to my question about the priorities that had been set for the Children and Youth Secretariat. The decision, as she was explaining it, was to focus on early years, early childhood, and I was asking about the other areas that had been identified by her working groups, those being youth gangs, prostitutes, juvenile prostitutes. *

(1440) Also, the care and protection committee had made a number of recommendations, and it is interesting that

4368 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 11, 1998 the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) is here right now, because, of course, this is an area that he has been asking the minister questions about in the Family Services Estimates and all the problems that are occurring with the high number of children in care in Manitoba. It was initially the intention of the Children and Youth Secretariat to deal with gaps between depart ments and different agencies providing services for children and youth. Their initial mandate was to try and better co-ordinate services for youth, youth who are already in the system.

I am wondering what the Youth Secretariat is doing, first of all, to address the needs of those children who are already in the system through Child and Family Services. That was one of the priority areas identified through the working group process. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Chairperson, of course, this is a very timely topic as we go through a significantly high profile around the Child and Family Services agency in Winnipeg with the inquest that is ongoing right now.

There has been lots of activity since a couple of years ago when the reason for this inquest, the death of a baby, took plac:e. Although I cannot comment specifically on what is being said at the inquest right now or what ou;r comments might be when we are called to that inquest in the fall of this year, I can indicate that there certainly are some issues that we have been discussing with the Winnipeg agency over the last couple of years.

The operational review was one of those things that both the agency and we agreed to, to try to determine what the flaws in the system were and to see how we could work together to better address them, and, of course, there have been recommendations as a result of that operational review, and there is a steering committee with the Winnipeg agency and my depart ment to look at implementation of those recommen dations and how we can better serve children.

One of the issues, of course, that I think that my honourable friend is interested in is the co-ordination of services and supports for those within the Child and Family Services system that presently exist. One of the significant undertakings or things that we have initiated, of course, is the closure of the Seven Oaks Youth Centre and the implementation of the Emergency Youth Crisis Stabilization system that has been put in place and is working extremely well.

Certainly the Children and Youth Secretariat was involved in the devolution of the Seven Oaks centre, the closure of the Seven Oaks centre, and the whole process of setting up the crisis stabilization system. I would like to spend a little bit of time just discussing exactly what that has done, how many referrals there have been and how we have been able to work with families to try to ensure that we go right into the home if there is a crisis occurring to try to work with the family to see whether there is the ability to keep that family together.

If not, there is the ability then to move them into our Crisis Stabilization units, and there is some information I can get for my honourable friend on the numbers of children, number of referrals to that system that have occurred and what we have been able to do to resolve the problem. So I want to indicate that the Children and Youth Secretariat was involved in that. Mental Health was involved because we needed the psychiatric swing beds available for those youth, and we do have those, and there is stable funding now through the Department of Health for those beds. I guess I do have the numbers here.

Just a moment. Okay, there is the youth emergency services, and this is our experience since January 15 of this year and up until April 30. There were 574 requests for service. Of that 574-and this is a central referral line to youth emergency services-121 cases were able to be resolved by telephone intervention. So that was someone on the other end of the line helping people find out where the supports were in the community and resolving the issues so that no other intervention at that time had to be taken.

But in 453 of the cases, the mobile crisis teams which have been established under this process were dispatched and sent out. I guess, out the 453 cases where the crisis team went out, there were 365 different children involved. In 88 cases, the mobile crisis team went out more than once to serve the same children. Out of those 453 cases that the mobile crisis team responded to, 122 of those families were served in-

June 11 , 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4369 home with supports to prevent family breakup. Those who had to be referred to the Crisis Stabilization Unit were 54 admissions to MacDonald Youth Services boys stabilization unit and 89 admissions to the Marymound girls stabilization unit. I think that we have had a significant amount of success in preventing families in crisis from having to utilize some sort of separation within those families, but we have been able to work with them in their homes and keep families together.

In cases where there was no ability to do that, we do have the resources and the beds available to admit youth to those stabilization units and try to develop an individual case plan. So there has certainly been some success, and the Children and Youth Secretariat was involved in that, pulling the money together from different departments to ensure the success of this program. I would hope my honourable friend would agree that this is much better than warehousing kids at Seven � aks.

But the issue, of course, around warehousing kids comes up when we look at the issue of hotel use and any amount of hotel use is unacceptable. When w; were made aware last year that the Winnipeg agency w�s using that kind of placement as a way of dealing with some of their issues, we did become very concerned and indicated to them that we wanted to work very closely and very co-operatively, that we needed to find an approach that we could both work together to try to ensure that hotel placement was not the option of choice for treating children and youth.

I do know that we had some success in the first few months of this year in ensuring that the number of children who were placed in hotels reduced significantly. The ideal number, of course, would be zero. I am not sure whether we are ready to be able to say that we can achieve zero, but I do know that there were nights within the months of April and May where t�e number of children in hotels was down to nine per mght. It fluctuates on a day-to-day basis, and I do know that there are different reasons.

I know that maybe on a Saturday night when a Child and Family Services worker is called because parents have left to go out for the evening and left their children alone and unsup�rvised that children are picked up. Very often, there IS a need for a place for them to be for a short period of time until we determine whether, in fact, it was just a one-night circumstance and that it was safe to put the children back in that family and work with that family. Point of Order Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, I just want to ask, on a point of order, if the minister would just answer the questions more succinctly, perhaps.

I asked specifically what the Children and Youth Secretariat had done in the area of care and protection of children, kids in care. I think you answered that by describing the services provided through the transition of the Seven Oaks centre. With all due respect, I think now you are getting into other areas in a lot of detail. * (14 50) We do not have much more time for this committee so I would just ask, with all due respect, that if yo� could answer the questions that I am raising quickly, and we will get on with it.

There are a number of other programs in the Children and Youth Secretariat that I want to ask questions about. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, on the same point of order. I have to apologize if my honourable friend thinks I am taking too much time, but I do recall in her questions, the question about placement of children in h�tel.s, being raised. I think very often there are many withm our community who think there is a very simplistic approach to finding places and knowing where children are best served. So I thought that I should explain a little bit about the situation around hotels.

But if my honourable friend would like to continue on and have me end my answer there, you know, I will have lots of opportunity to debate the issues around hotels, but I do know it was something that she did ask in her questions or made in her comments. An Honourable Member: Yesterday? Mrs. Mitchelson: No, just now. You talked about children in hotels. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. ***

4370 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 11, 1998 Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister, if you wish to finish your response. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thanks, Mr. Chairperson. I think in my point of orde:r I did indicate clearly that these are complex issues. There is not any one issue around children. Reality is what we are seeing is the need for support for children after families become dysfunctional, and children are abandoned or abused or neglected. Quit<e frankly, all of the things that the Children and Youth Secretariat has been doing has been trying to focus on keeping kids out of care. Ms.

Cerilli: Getting back specifically then to the secretariat's initiative with the Seven Oaks centre, I guess, just to start off with, it seems like there has been an either/or decision made here. The centre has been closed, and maybe the minister can clarify for me with her staff the number of units there or beds that were available for youth at one time.

But those have been closed, and now you have opted for this Emergency Crisis Stabilization unit which can work well, but from the community I have also heard that there is a need for a secure place where youth can go as a cooling-off period, as a sort of temporary shelter. So I am wanting the minister to clarify for me if she does not think tha1t is the case, that it is not an either/or here, that the Cris.is Stabilization Service may be well and good, but there still is a need for a secure shelter for kids that are in crisis.

At times they cannot go home, and I hav�: run into this issue both in dealing with constituents as well as in dealing with some service providers. So I am wondering now if we can get some explanation of the number of beds that were closed, and ifthere has been any other increase in other places for that kind of secure supervised shelter for youth in crisis, or if as the minister has described for me, the referrals are to the existing services with Marymound or wiith MacDonald Youth Services. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, no, these were not the existing sources within Marymound and MacDonald Youth Services.

These were dedicated new beds at both facilities, six to eight beds at Mary mound for girls, siix to eight beds through MacDonald Youth for boys, and four beds in the youth psychiatric facility at Health Sciences Centre. So those were the new beds that wen! created, so that there was proactive treatment for children, case planning and individualized work, rather than-so these in-house beds are replacement.

But also besides that we have the mobile crisis teams that are available 24 hours a day, seven days a week to deal with families, to work with families as a crisis occurs, hopefully preventing the kind-some of the kids that ended up in Seven Oaks because there was not that kind of service available for families in the past, or those that might have gone to Seven Oaks would now be going to the new beds at MacDonald Youth and Marymound. Ms. Cerilli: And how many was that replacing at the youth centre? Previously, I recall, the number 34 is in my memory. I am not sure if that is correct. Mrs.

Mitchelson: I think there was accommodation for 32 beds, but the average annual use was 22 beds. Ms. Cerilli: I guess that is what happens when you have emergencies though is that they are not always full but that sometimes there is a demand that is greater than what is available. That is the nature of dealing with kids in crisis. So the minister has explained to me this new system that is in place, and I think that it is reasonable and it is a good idea to have a kind of intervention that will go into families' homes.

I am wondering if these are mental health workers, or are they CFS staff, or is it a combination. Mrs. Mitchelson: It is a multidisciplinary team, so it is mental health workers, social workers, psychologists that are part of the crisis team. So that is another area where there is some co-ordination where everyone who has some experience in dealing with different issues surrounding youth in crisis is involved in the treatment plan. Ms. Cerilli: So the staffing at the team is how many staff then? Again, how does that compare with the staffing levels that were at the youth centre? Mrs.

Mitchelson: We have contracted with MacDonald Youth Services to run the program, so they do the crisis stabilization piece. We redirected all of the resources that we were spending at Seven Oaks Youth Centre to the new system.

June 11 , 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4371 Ms. Cerilli: Okay. So other than this initiative, what are the plans in the secretariat for other services co ordinated for kids that are in care? What is the next step, either with research-is it consultation? Are there plans to implement some of the other recommendations that were in the working group report? If not this year, then you are looking down the road that there is a high need in this area? These, I think, are the kids and the families that often fall through the cracks.

They go from one agency to the other, all the kinds of things that the Children and Youth Secretariat was going to try to address. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I know the Children and Youth Secretariat has been working around the issue of training for F AS, for ADHD children. I know that there has been some ongoing dialogue and discussion around what the needs of foster parents are in respect to training around the issues of ADHD and FAS and that kind of activity.

I do want to indicate that the innovative and preventative child and family services piece of the Winnipeg Development Agreement is being co ordinated and looked at through the Children and Youth Secretariat. There will probab ly be some announcements as early as next week around some of the initiatives that will be undertaken in that respect. I do know that in some of those announcements, there are partnerships with the Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency and other community groups to deal with the issues around prevention. *

(1500) So there will be some announcements upcoming, and we will continue to work on some of the issues. I do know that we indicated that the urban sports camps have been started, and some are up and running. The Department of Justice is now taking the lead. The Children and Youth Secretariat will be doing the evaluative piece on that, but that is one of the issues that will deal with youth gangs in the city of Winnipeg. Ms. Cerilli: I want to also ask some questions, then, about the EarlyStart program. A budget of $525,000, and that is just for this year for that program- An Honourable Member: Which one? Ms.

Cerilli: The EarlyStart program which, in your explanation yesterday, you said that it was going to be run out of daycares and a couple of the sites have already been selected, and there are going to be additional funded sites announced throughout the year. I want to get some explanation of how this is going to work in terms of reaching children who are beyond the numbers that are in the child care centre itself. I mean, as I understand it, this program is not intended just for the children that are in the daycare centre where it is going to be run. So how are the other children going to be identified? Mrs.

Mitchelson: I know that, as we start with both Baby First and EarlyStart-BabyFirst is the one that deals with prenatal to aged two, that program. I indicated yesterday, as we identify each child as they leave the hospital, or before if we have the opportunity, and put significant supports in around them, we will certainly be ensuring that, if there is additional support that is required once the child reaches the age of two, they will be referred to an EarlyStart program.

I guess the issue around how child care centres will access other children in the community, we do know, and child care centres have indicated to us, that very often they understand the need in their community. There are many special social needs children in our daycare system, and what daycares are doing is developing community networks. When they identify families that need additional support right now-and I do know that there are many examples. The very first project that we started up, one of our very first announcements, was the one at Victor Mager School where the daycare centre is in the school.

They also have a drop-in centre; they have literacy programs for adults. The community is extremely involved in that facility. So it will be a matter of outreach by the daycares. They will have the ability to hire additional staff and home visitors who will go into homes and work directly with families and children, trying to ensure that some of the skills that they have as early childhood educators are passed on to parents who might need to understand how they can interact in a more significant way with their children.

4372 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 11, 1998 So I know that we will be, sort of, watching every step, but it is bast�d on the Perry preschool program that was started in the States and has been very successful. We are looking at the same kind of activity that happened there. I think there is much community support for it. r think we will have to, as we move along, ensure that we are accomplishing the objectives that we set out to accomplish. Ms.

Cerilli: Well, in answer to my question, it seems that the minister is saying that there is going to be a reliance on the sort of inf ormal network that the daycare has established in the community. I am assuming that would mean that referrals would come from other agencies, if the daycare is in the school. Perhaps, from dealing with, then, older siblings, they would find out about two- to five-year-olds that would need support through the program or families with those aged children. Would Child and Family Services then be referring to this program?

My focus here is looking at how all of these programs are going to interrelate and hang together. So my question is: how are children going to be brought to the attention of this program that are outside the enrollment of the child care centre? Mrs. Mitchels on: I think there will be many referral points. That is why we have included and heightened the awareness within all of the professional community and the community organizations the implementation of EarlyStart.

ThroUlgh the Baby First program, if a mom is identified at the hospital or prenatally that she needs some support for her and that baby, if she has older siblings, if that woman already has older children, the Baby First program would be referring to EarlyStart for those older childn�n. So, along with working with the newborn and the mom, EarlyStart could play a role for older siblings. You may have children in the school system who teachers identify as having younger children in their families at home that could be ref erred to the EarlyStart program.

So if there are other types of drop-in activities already happening within the community and workers in those facilities, it could be a public health nurse that has the call. It could be the Winnipeg Child and Family Servict�s agency that sees the need for some sort of intervention and work within the family. That referral could be made to the EarlyStart program. So there will be refen�als coming from all different areas. The lead will be the child care facility that has the program, and the home visitors will be hired by that facility to go out into those homes and work with families.

So I think the referrals will come from all areas and all other professions, those dealing with younger kids in the family, those dealing with older ones or those that have some association with the Child and Family Services system. Physicians, also, ifthey saw a family that was in need, could make that kind of referral, so the key of course is to ensure that everyone out there knows that these programs are available and monitor where the referrals are coming from.

If we see that in one area, whether it be through the education system or the Child and Family Services system, that referrals are not coming, I think what we need to do is ensure that the awareness is created and the referral is encouraged. Ms. Cerilli: So the minister is clarifying that definitely the intention of this program is to reach beyond the population of children just in the child care centre. It sounds that there will be some reliance on just an informal network to make those kinds of referrals, as well as some ofthe professional agencies.

Am I understanding it correctly then to think that the child care centre will become like a home base? There used to be successful parent-child centres that were funded that were a very nonthreatening sort of resource centre. I am wondering, one of the other things that we hear from child care providers is to sort of expand the options for parents just to bring children there for respite child care. Is that one of the things? What is going to be there to sort of draw in the parents and the children that are not part of the regular child care program?

I am also wanting you to let me know if you have already identified the additional sites that are going to be part of the program, and how you are identifying the child care centres that are going to be part of the EarlyStart program. * (15 10) Mrs. Mitchelson: We are working at identifying the sites, certainly looking at high-need areas within the city of Winnipeg where we know there are a significant number of low-income families, significantly high

June 11 , 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4373 aboriginal populations, where there are a high number of subsidized spaces, child care spaces, where there are a high number of special social needs children already enrolled in the child care facilities. So we are looking at identifying those centres that are there, looking to see whether they are interested in partnering with us. We are in the process of identifying new sites right throughout the province.

We do know and I indicated yesterday that in the North we have been working with Frontier School Division, and because in some areas in the North there are not a lot of child care facilities, we are working specifically with Frontier School Division. There will be a little different model there, and it may be based out of schools. So we are trying to adapt the program and ensure that the whole province has access. If there are not formal child care structures, it might be family daycare homes. If there are not child care facilities, it might be through the school system.

We do know that Frontier School Division is very interested, and we are working with them around a little bit of a different model. Same focus on what we want to accomplish, but it may have to be run in a little different manner. Ms. Cerilli: I think the other day you mentioned a number that were going to be outside the city of Winnipeg. The amount that you have budgeted in the information you gave me yesterday was $525,000. That is just for this upcoming year, but what is that money actually going to go to? Is it going to go to staff? These home visitors, are they going to be paid? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, the $525, 000 is predominantly for the hiring of home visitors, and there is a little bit of training dollars included in that figure, too. An Honourable Member: So that is just for this year. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I have been watching this very carefully, and this is not a conversation between the critic and the minister. This is the process of Estimates, and I would remind all members of the committee that any comments would be made through the Chair. Ms. Cerilli: Perhaps you can watch to see when we are ready to speak. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Ms. Cerilli: Here we go. Mr.

Chairperson, Sir, I am interested to hear that it is going to work with the Frontier School Division, and that is going to be primarily in the North. Why are you not working more with schools in the city of Winnipeg for this program if the intention is to reach out to children who are outside the child care centres? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, the program is targeted to those aged two to five to get them ready to enter school, both more ready to learn and socially adapted to learn at school.

We do know that early childhood educators, through our child care system, have the skiiis and the tools that are needed to work with children at that age. I have had many discussions with early child-hood educators and certainly believe that they have the qualities and the skills. They also have expressed concern in the past that they have been dealing with kids sometimes in isolation of families, and they would like to play a greater role in the community and working with families.

So we thought it was a good place to start and that they would certainly be able to find mentors right within their community that they could hire to go visit with families, work with parents. So this is making more of a connection between the parents and the child care facility and ensuring that parents are involved. Ms. Cerilli: Okay, I think I will ask some questions now about the FAST program. That is the school initiative for young people aged four to nine. I guess this is one of the examples of why we are concerned that a lot of the initiatives from the secretariat are pilot projects.

This one definitely is, you know, targeted for a four-year period, 132 families, you have ref erenced in the notes you have provided. I would think that this program is going to work. Again, it seems like you are going to target it to areas, I am assuming, similarly to the way you are going to target the other program that we were just discussing. My concern is that some of these programs, I think, would benefit children who are high risk, who we

4374 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 11, 1998 would find in all areas of the city and of the province. So I guess what I am looking for is a little bit more of an explanation about this program of the kind of intervention that is going to occur, and why it is that you have selected to target it in this way or to conduct a program in this way for over a four-year period. Mrs.

Mitchelson: This is a program that has been up and running a little longer than the ones that we have just announced. ll think I have made it fairly clear over the last number of years that I have been the Minister of Family Services that governments, I guess of all political stripes right across the country, are looking at outcomes and measurements on how successful we are being in the programs that we start and we implement.

In the past, I know when resources were increasing in significant ways year after year, governments just kept adding new programs onto old without evaluating, without knowing whether the programs were having any positive impact or what the outcomes were. We ended up with program on top of program, and nobody knew whether they were doing anything or not or we were seeing healthier families and children as a result. So every govemment now is looking at measuring outcomes and evaluating programs and seeing whether they are, indeed, having a positive impact.

So when you hear the word "pilot project," very often our pilot projects are based on one site being a demonstration site and evaluation site and trying to ensure that as we move through the evaluation ofthe program, if parts of it are working and parts are not, we need to revamp the program a little bit to get the maximum effect and impact for families. So the FAST program is a pilot in a sense where we started the program and a four-year evaluative process, all the initial evaluations are saying that it has been quite a successful program.

I will certainly indicate that if the results are positive at the end of the evaluative term, that program will continue. We are looking right now at how we might look at some sort of a universal model that could be expanded right throughout the province. Ms. Cerilli: One of the other questions I have, both for this program as well as the Early Literacy Program, I am looking for in on here. That is the way the minister referenced it in her opening statement, but I am wondering if then� is a different name for it based on the notes you gave me the other day.

Anyway, I am wondering if either of these two programs will have a speech and language component. We have heard about the long waiting list for speech and language therapy both for preschool as well as school age. I know that there is one pilot project going on in rural Manitoba. I think it is somewhere out in southwestern Manitoba that is looking at a more comprehensive approach to intervening with language delayed and language problems in children. I am wondering if either of these two programs have a component for speech and language. *( 1520) Mrs.

Mitchelson: The Early Literacy Program, the $2.7 million that is available for Early Literacy, is in the Department of Education. That is an Education depart mental program, and, yes, it does have a speech and language component to it. I think the other one that my honourable friend mentioned, in the Brandon area was it, is funded by the Department of Health and does have a speech and language component. Ms. Cerilli: So what is the name of this Early Literacy project based on the notes that you gave me the other day? Where am I going to find this one? They all have such nice names. Mrs.

Mitchelson: It is in the Minister of Education's budget. I think there is a budget line that says Early Literacy Program in the K-S4 side of the Department of Education. Ms. Cerilli: So it is not on the list that you gave me the other day. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I want to remind all members of the committee that the Chair is here for remarks to be made through the Chair, and I am failing to hear that. I would insist that all honourable members follow the process that is before this committee. Ms. Cerilli: Just to clarifY, Mr.

Chairperson, you are requesting that I refer to you at the beginning of each of my questions? Is that what you are concerned about? Mr. Chairperson: All honourable members, for the benefit of the committee, all members who address anybody make their remarks through the Chair.

June 11 , 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4375 Ms. Cerilli: I am wanting the minister to clarify, Mr. Chairperson, if the Early Literacy Program is listed in the notes that she provided for me the other day. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, there were two different sets of information that I gave to my honourable friend. One was the Children and Youth Secretariat, Projects and Partnerships. This is not a partnership between government departments. It is a Department of Education initiative and it is an Early Literacy Program. It is not in the Children and Youth Secretariat's Projects and Partnerships.

It is a Depart ment of Education initiative, but when we talk about 1998-99 initiatives for children, the Literacy Program in Education is a new program that benefits children. So it is not a Children and Youth Secretariat initiative, but it is an initiative for children that the Department of Education is doing. Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the minister for that clarification. Right now, I would like to ask the minister more questions about the nutrition strategy. This one is getting one of the largest funding allocations. It was a ma jor recommendation in the Postl Report.

It has been identified in the health incidents working group, and it has $2. 1 million. I would like for the minister to give me a little bit more detail on this program, how it is going to be implemented, the different locations in the community, how those are going to be selected, and how it is going to be targeted. Mrs. Mitchelson: I would love to be able to give more detail. Right at this point in time we have announced that the final details around the program are just being pulled together and it will be announced, so we have not announced. We have announced that we have put the money in.

Exactly how it is going to be spent has not been announced yet, but that will be announced shortly. Ms. Cerilli: I think this one was also mentioned in the budget or the throne speech. In the budget, the minister has clarified for me. So I am wondering if then we could clarify: this is a funding that has come from the Department ofHealth, I think is one of the departments, or which departments? Will the program be run at all through the schools in the province? Mrs. Mitchelson: No, it is part of the reinvestment under the National Child Benefit.

It is in the budget of the Department of Family Services, and the details of that will be announced fairly soon. Ms. Cerilli: The minister seems to be reluctant to give me more details on this initiative because she does not want to spoil her press release or her press announce ment. You know, these are the Estimates. This is the time when she is accountable for the money that has been allocated in this budget year.

I would like her to clarify for me if that is the reason that she is hesitant to give me more details or if there is some other reason why she does not want to explain, as we have just gone through some of these other programs, a little more about this nutrition initiative, which has a large budget allocation. I am assuming that $2.1 million is for this year. It is already going on to July. So has any of that money already been expended in start-up, or is all that money going to be expended this year, and a little bit more detail about how that is going to be done. Mrs.

Mitchelson: The reason I have been able to give so much detail on the other programs is that they have been announced and this one has not been announced as yet. We are putting the final touches on the program. I want to remind my honourable friend that the National Child Benefit does not kick in until July of 1998. It starts in July, and we are only receiving partial year funding, so we are not behind

schedule as such in announcing these programs and initiatives, but the nutrition strategy will be announced, and there is a significant amount of money in it. I am not, at this time, able to give the details around that program. Ms. Cerilli: Do you have a date when you are planning to announce the nutrition programs? Mrs. Mitchelson: Soon. Ms. Cerilli: I think that we could talk for a long time about all of these needs related to children and youth in Manitoba, that we could go into more detail, hopefully, in a lot of other of these projects, but, given the lack of time left in the Estimates, I think I am going to have to

4376 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 11 , 1998 close now. Perhaps we will get to ask some more questions in concurrence. I am just lookiing quickly through my notes to see if there is anything that I had identified that I really wanted to ask for the minis ter's answer to, but I will just close by saying that, while I think that some of the ini tiatives that the secretariat is co-ordinating and has undertaken are positive and are a good approach, I think that there still are a lot of outstanding concerns, because, at this time last year, there was about half a million dol lars.

This year there is just over $3 milli on that the secretariat has available to it. At the same time, this government has been making very large cuts into programs for chil dren and youth that are having an impact.

So while the Child ren and Youth Secretariat is wanting to go ahead with some positive ventures in some new directions, the large government programs that this mi nister as well as other mi ni sters are responsible for have been cut back, whether it in the past has been in child care, whether it has been in allocations for foster famil ies, whether it has been in allocations for social allowance, a number of programs in Education, particularly in a lot of categories for special needs, in the area of Housing, where they cut back the shelter allowance programs for low-income families. *

(1530) I would say that in pretty much every department. In Health, there are a number of areas where there has not been the investm�:nt that is required or there have been cuts in the large, broad programs of this government, and now the secre:tariat seems to sort of be trying to fill in with some new ini tiatives that are not going to add up to the amount that has been elim inated in chil dren and youth services over the tenure of this government. I think that is probably the main concern that I have had about what has been happening with this govern ment in the Chi ldren and Youth Secretariat.

It does have some positive initia tives, but they are so much smaller in scale compared to the large government cutbacks and redirection that has occurred over the last I 0 years of this government. Mrs. Mitchelson: I guess I cannot close the Estimates of the Child ren and Youth Secretariat without making a few comments . I just indicate that the process that we have embarked upon through the Childr en and Youth Secretariat is fairly new and fairly innovative.

It does, for the first time ever, cause government departmen ts to try to work together, to put their heads together collectively, to not protect their turf, but in fact to look at how we can deal with families in a more holistic way. So very often money gets poured into the system, and I am not about to get into a debate or an argument about cuts because I do know that signifi cantly mill ions and mill ions of new dollars into our child welfare system is certainly not a cut. We have always provided that kind of support.

The issue is that much of the money that goes into Child and Family is after the fact, and unless we start to put money in at the front end, we are not going to see any improvement in our Child and Family Services system. It is the first time ever that departments have really come together, put their heads together collectively around the table and developed programs that reduce overlap and duplication and see a co-operative approach.

I also have to indicate, too, that we are very much more engaging families and communities in finding the solutions, and I think we have seen many, many times that community organizations, people who live in nei ghbourhoods and work in neig hbourhoods very often have some of the answers that we have never given them credit for before. We are engaged in a very signifi cant way in trying to work with communities, building upon programs that already exist and ensuring that they can deal with the issues right in their own neighbourhoods.

I find from time to time that families are much more comfortable when they know that someone who has been there, done that and turned their lives around can offer real help and real solutions to individuals and families and to children. So I am encou raged. I want to say thanks to the staff of the Child ren and Youth Secretariat for the hard work that they do and for their connection to community. So very often government departments do not have the kind of relationship with community that needs to be developed.

I have said many times and I will say it again on the record that governments cannot do it alone, and nobody wants governments to do it in isolation of what people out there know can work.

June 11, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4377 Governments do not always have the answers. What government is there for is to facilitate the kind of co ordination that happens when you really sit down and talk to people, understand what the issues are, and help them to develop the solutions that they believe can fix and build stronger communities and strengthen families. I think that is what we have really tried to do.

It took a little time for the Chi ldren and Youth Secretariat to get up and running, but I think we have made a very significant start in trying to deal with some of the priority areas that were identified by the community. We will continue to work, recognizing and realizing that we have to get at the issues before they become a problem or families become dysfunctional. That is the challenge for all of us. I said earlier in my opening statements and I will say again, we do not want to see a child on someone's caseload in the child welfare system.

We want to see a healthier family up front so they do not need the kinds of services and support that families have needed in the past, that children have needed in the past from our child welfare system. So everything that we are doing is focusing on trying to ensure that we build stronger communities and strengthen families in those communities. We know that the communities have the solutions to those. We will facilitate that community consultative process, and we will ensure that the financial resources are available when communities come up with the right solutions for them. So thanks, Mr.

Chairperson, and with that I will end my comments. Mr. Chairperson: 34. 1. Children and Youth Secretariat (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $879,3 00-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $269,100-pass; (

c) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($722, 1 00}-pass. Resolution 34 .1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $426,300 for the Children and Youth Secretariat, Children and Youth Secretariat, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1999. 34.2. ChildrenFirst Initiatives (

a) ChildrenFirst Initiatives $3,3 20,000-pass; (

b) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($950,0 00}-pass. Resolution 34.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,370,000 for Children and Youth Secretariat, ChildrenFirst Initiatives, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1999. This now concludes the Estimates of the Children and Youth Secretariat. HEALTH Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): The next set of Estimates that we will be considering in this

section of the Committee of Supply are the Estimates of the Department of Health. The Committee of Supply will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Health. When this committee last sat to consider the Health Estimates, the matter under consideration was the motion moved by the honourable member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford), which had been moved on April 30 and which was amended by unanimous consent on May 5. The amended motion reads as follows: It was moved by the honourable member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Chairperson: Dispense.

THAT this Committee recommend that the Legislature support the content of the motion adopted by the Quebec National Assembly, and furth er that the Legislature urge the Minister of Health to contact the Federal Government and press fo r the existing compensation package fo r victims of tainted blood to be maintained, and that an extension of the existing agreement be entered into, which would provide compensation fo r all victims of Hepatitis C inf ected by contaminated blood or blood products. * (1 540) Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr.

Chairperson, I believe the minister will, in a few moments, update us on what has been happening with hepatitis C

4378 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 11 , 1998 negotiations. Given the fact that we are in negotiations currently, what I would like to suggest is that we defer consideration of the resolution certainly for the meantime and certainly for this afternoon, and then we could proceed with other items. I do understand the minister has a statement, and I believe we may have a few follow-up qut�stions, but if we could defer, by leave of the committee, the motion until a later time. Mr. Chairperson: Is there unanimous consent to def er the amended motiion by the committee? [agreed) Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Very briefly, Mr. Chair, just to update members of the committee and for the benefit of the record, we did have our meeting in I believe it was Ottawa some weeks ago. The governments of Ontario and Quebec clearly indicated at that time that they wanted to move unilaterally. The Government of Canada's position was that they wanted to work with the provinces to put some parameters about an extension of a particular program.

Both Ontario and Quebec, but particularly Ontario, were not prepared to participate in that process unless of course there was an up-front commitment of federal dollars with which to sit and put parameters around an additional program The Government of Canada was not in a position or prepared to do that. As a consequence, Ontario announced its course with a unilateral act. I believe the government of Quebec is on a similar course.

The rest of us, as provinces, appreciating that there were other things at play between the governments of Quebec and Ontario and the federal govenunent, all, by and large, took the position that we were prepared to enter into discussions with all of us at the officials level to look at all options that were available in this particular area and to be able to flesh out details around them and to come back with recommendations. That process is now underway.

At the officials level there was some atte�mpt to gather provincial and federal ministers together again in early July, but regrettably that was not able to happen. I am not quite sure of the reasons, but I want to say very firmly Manitoba was committed to attend that meeting, and we of course cancelled our arrangements when the meeting was called off.

One of the frustrations that our officials are having, of course, is that in trying to work through options and details, we have found that whatever documents are prepared or put forward tend to find their way almost instantaneously into the pages of a number of national or specific newspapers. That has made it very difficult to conduct any type of negotiations or discussions or explore options.

I am not entirely sure where those leaks are coming from, but it has to a large degree made it very difficult for all of us as parties to participate in those discussions when one's documents and positions are leaked almost simultaneously. So I just flagged that as a difficulty we are having. I would reconfirm to this committee the position that our Premier (Mr.

Filmon) has clearly stated and I have made at this table that, should a national program develop in this particular area, of course, one that is a reasonable program, Manitoba is very much committed to being part of a reasonable national program that may in fact develop. I only put that caveat of reasonable because sometimes things may happen that become beyond the realm of reasonable. I do not think anyone would expect a province to be committed to that, but our province is very much committed to seeing a national program and being part of a national program.

When the politics, I think, of Queen's Park and Quebec City and Ottawa tend to settle and the respective commitments of those governments and the national government are fleshed out, then the remainder of us will probably be asked to be participants in that program. Of course Manitoba would not want to be left out of a national program. So that is my update. I am sure we will be keeping members informed as this progresses, however long it takes. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I would like to thank the minister for his statement.

I have some questions on hepatitis C, rather specific questions, not dealing with the minister's statement. I recently took

part in a family group conf erencing. There were quite a few Child and Family Services issues but also health issues, and a public health nurse provided information to all the people present about how someone with hepatitis C needs to look after themselves. The individual about whom we were

June 11, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4379 meeting has been recently diagnosed with hepatitis C. The public health nurse said that he would be seeing his family doctor at a clinic, who would be referring him to a liver specialist at the Health Sciences Centre, and that there was a six-month waiting list to see this specialist.

Subsequent to the meeting, one of the parents phoned me and expressed the fact that she was quite upset because in the past the family and the adolescent have done a lot of waiting on the Child and Family Services system, and now they feel that this is one more case where they have to wait in this case because of waiting lists in the health care system. I am wondering, first of all, if the minister can confirm that there is a six-month waiting list to see a liver specialist at the Health Sciences Centre. Mr.

Praznik: I do not mean to answer a question with a question, but, by way of clarification, is this a particular matter that was raised in the House or was raised in an

article in one of the Winnipeg papers about a diagnosis and a long period to get in to see the specialist again at the Health Sciences Centre? I recall a case that may or may not be this one that had a story in one of our papers, our daily papers, recently. If it is that particular case, then I have some additional information. If it is not, then it is not helpful. I would just ask the member if he is aware if that is the case. * (1 550) Mr. Martindale: As far as I know, it is not. It was just raised at a meeting on Tuesday of this week by the public health nurse, and she was providing it as information. Mr.

Praznik: One of the issues, and Ms. Hicks makes the point with me that on any urgent matter or emergent matter, like all waiting lists, and I cannot confirm what an individual physician's waiting list is or how many people are on lists to see specific specialists, but, given the urgency of the matter at hand, it will usually result in the placement on the list. As Ms. Hicks has pointed out to me, that if someone's family practitioner sees this as an extremely urgent matter, then the recommendation would be to see them very shortly, and they would move up on the list.

The lists of most physicians are not kept on a first come, first served basis. There is movement on them based on the urgency of the matter. So I would suggest that perhaps some discussion with the family physician take place, because one of the issues on hepatitis C is that it can be years before the liver is actually affected, if at all. It may be that the length of time here is more related to the progress of hepatitis C or a cautionary referral to a specialist as opposed to an immediate need. I would make this invitation to the member for Burrows because I think it is obviously important to this individual.

If he could provide, privately after this meeting, Ms. Hicks with the specific information, we will endeavour to have that checked upon, and if the matter is more urgent than the specialist office is aware, it is likely that person will be readjusted on the list to see the specialist on a more timely basis. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I would like to thank the minister for that answer, and I will follow up appropriately and also inform the family. Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Mr. Chairperson, I want to go back to the evolution of plans to deal with the various pieces of the Misericordia plan.

I wonder ifthe minister could update the committee on plans for the various pieces that have been reallocated. I am aware of some of the overall reallocations of plastic surgery and hip replacement surgeries to various places, but perhaps the minister could provide an overview of that, and then we could move on to talk about some of the time line and other questions. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, regrettably-and I appreciate the dynamic of the latter part of the 240 hours of Estimates-! do not have Dr. Postl with me today, who is much more intimately involved in these details than I. Ms.

Hicks would not be able to give an exact update. The reason I say that is as the details around these programs-we do have a working team with Misericordia, between the WHA, the Ministry of Health and Misericordia, and it has been meeting. I believe it is meeting again tomorrow morning, and they are putting together the details with respect to these programs.

4380 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 11, 1998 I know in the area of the breast program, which has been one of great interest to a number of communities and certainly to the public generally, that the various interest and support communities around it have been invited into this process of planning in detail and have been very much involved in it. So as the details are being worked out, they are getting a sense of the overall plan, and they are having input into a number of the decisions that an� being made. So I do not have an update. I know they have been meeting fairly regularly.

I know the issue: was raised about-the member raised it, in fact, in the House with respect to the urgency care centre and primary health care. I had a chance to check the document that he ref erred to, and I can appreciate the concern that he raised. I do not think the Winnipeg Hospital Authority's communications people quite accurately-perhaps did not use the right term, but the intention of the government and of the Winnipeg Hospital Authority is to ensure that centre is both a centre for primary health which is important, a good community clinic, but also has an urgency capacity.

I know there ar�� some issues around beds available and some issues around observation beds that are being worked out in detail, and I leave that to those who have to put this together. But the intent of the government and of the WHA is to make that not a diminished centre but one that is very active and well used and functional. In fact, within our planning, we see that as an opportunity for us to deliver a variety of seasonal programs, a flu di nic, for example, that will take pressure off of emergency rooms.

So it will be a very vital part ofthe Winnipeg Hospital Authority, not just another clinic for that part of the city. I would invite the member, actually, because I know of his interest in this particular area-l think just because we are of different political parties in this House, I see no reason why he should not avail himself.

I actually extend the invitation, that as some of this planning goes on, to invite him to spend some time with our people, and he may have a contribution to make in direction that he may be more aware of in serving those needs than perhaps I obviously do, since it is not near my constituency of senrices, my particular community. So I make that as a sincere invitation to him. Part of what is also going on now in the assessment, I know that on the capital side of the project, Mr.

Bartman, the last time I spoke with him, indicated that there is a possibility that we could be in the ground on almost the whole project this fall, not just the first hundred beds but perhaps the whole 280, that there were plans the Misericordia had developed some years ago to put a new tower of beds in and that they have taken those off the shelf. It may be possible, with some refinement, to be able to adapt them to long-term care needs which would save us a great deal of architectural work on the non-Furby Street, on the main site where there is a fair bit of work to be done.

So I do not know the status of those today. They are being worked through. I know I have had a chance to speak with Councillor Glen Murray ever so briefly as we passed at an event, and he assured me that the zoning would eventually be worked through. There were some issues that he had about potentially moving houses onto vacant lots and other things that would have to be worked out locally. So I suspect those things will be worked through. Also, I was just brief ed this morning by Ms.

Hicks that there is still some space that will remain in the complex, even after the renovation, quite potentially, that may accommodate some other services within the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, may be very ideal space for that service, and it is being explored, as well, now. So as programs and things shuffle and develop, we have always said that the third role of the Misericordia, one being long-term care, the second being primary urgency care for that part of the city, but also to be a host for a variety of programs and facilities or services for the WHA was also that third role.

There had to be, obviously, lots of flexibility in that. The central location of the Misericordia makes it ideal for particularly ambulatory services, having a parkade in a central location, far better than a community hospital at any other end of the city which is more inconvenient to those who come from other parts. So we intend to see that happen. I am going to ask Miss Hicks perhaps to add anything she may have. Do you just want to touch base on any of those?

June 11 , 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 438 1 Ms. Sue Hicks (Associate Deputy Minister, External Programs and Operations Divis ion): No. I think that is good. Mr. Praznik: So I would say to the member as well that if he would like to arrange a meeting as these sort of flush out, Ms. Hicks would be glad to do that, and we can get him a briefing with-as I appreciate today we are in the last hours of Estimates today and maybe next week, you know-to be able to arrange to have Dr. Postl here to answer these questions if we are not able to do it. I would be pleased to arrange to provide that briefing for him at another time. *

(1600) Mrs. Myrna Driedger, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Sale: First of all, I thank the minister for the invitation, and I will contact Miss Hicks, I presume-is that the correct contact point-to avail myself of that opportunity. So I thank him for that. I am also pleased to hear that the patient groups involved in breast care and survivors' groups have been contacted and are, am I to take it, actively attending in the planning process?

I think that is a very positive step for those groups, not only because they have a great deal to add to the process from their own experience, but because I think the minister has acknowledged, and I certainly would underline, that I think we know increasingly that so much of healing has to do with attitude and a sense of comfort and a sense of confidence. A great deal of that comes from knowing what is going on and having some sense that you have some involvement in the process. So I think that is health giving, not just for the process, but it is health giving for the people involved as well.

If that is what is happening, then I am very pleased to know that. I gather, Madam Chairperson, that the Misericordia Hospital has signed finally the documents that were unsigned when we last spoke, but the minister was expecting a conclusion. Is that the case? Mr. Praznik: Well, the number of documents that we referred to as agreement on-pardon me, I am going to sneeze- An Honourable Member: Bless you. Even Ministers of Health This will make good history student in the Mr. Praznik: Thank you. sometimes have to sneeze. reading some day by some journals of this Assembly.

First of all, a number of the issues where agreements were reached-one is of course in common medical by laws, and my understanding is that all of the hospitals have agreed to that and have agreed to the common medical by-laws, which were developed actually by the physicians in the system. The second agreement that was required-and this is the one his Leader has referenced, and I admit, I think, with some confusion, but I appreciate why because there are many things in play. The agreement that we required was by, I believe it was, the end of April.

I wanted to ensure that the hospitals had all agreed in principle to a common employing principle or strategy to allow for the movement of staff with programs and the changes that would go on. I had said to them that that was fundamental to making the system work. They wanted to attempt to achieve that by a negotiated process with the unions involved, which is obviously one option. A second option would be to apply to that status, to the Labour Board, and thirdly, I could appoint the labour commissioner under the act that had the power to create that.

They all agreed in principle and signed off on the appropriate letter of commitment to the principle of common employer, and my under standing, is if that is not able to be negotiated with the unions involved, then all those hospitals agree to the application to the Labour Board. What is in fact happening today is a dual process. The Labour Board, at our request, has begun the process of consolidation of bargaining units within health care in Winnipeg. That did take place this winter in rural Manitoba in the regional health authorities.

In fact, the votes on who would be representing those new bargaining units, I think the first votes took place in eastern Manitoba, North Eastman, a couple of weeks ago. South Eastman has voted, and there are others moving forward in that particular process. But the preliminary work on amalgamating bargaining units in health care is already started by the Labour Board on the presumption of having a common employer

4382 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MA NITOBA June 11, 1998 relationship. If agreement is not put in place , then the Labour Board will make that decision. So the negotiating process is going on, the amalgamation process is going on, and at some point that will be brought together. My expectation is that unless something goes terribly off track, there will not be a need to appoint the commission under the act. That is still a power that I have, and it is one I really do not want to exercise if we can do it through the normal labour relations process.

By the way, the amalgamation of bargaining units is a normal part of The Labour Relations Act and process and has occurred in other places. So our preference, my preference as minister, was that we use normal processes to do this rather than the extraordinary appointment of th�: commissioner. So that is underway, and we have had agreement there. The third area is the operating agreements for the fa cilities. Now I want to take Misericordia out of that for a moment, because the ir operating arrangements are unique among th•e nine hospitals.

Once they have become a long-terrn care centre, the role of their board in the go vernance of this fa cility will be much diff erent than the roles of boards in the governance and operation of the remaining acute care hospitals. So in many ways, some of the objectives of governance that the Misericordia board wanted to maintain, they will achieve and maintain under the long-term care area.

So the agreement that they have to strike, I do not think is complet ed, and the reason is it will flow out of our transition work that is now underway, because the y require to be part of the common em ployer and the transition in order to help accommodate the movement of acute care st aff who want to leave the Misericordia to remain in acute c:are, but once that is complete d, the n they wiii have a more independent role. So that operating agreement for Misericordia is-well, my understanding will come about aft er all this transition work is done.

With respect to the other eight fa cilities in the Winnipeg Hospital Au thority, I believe that most of their issues have been worked through. I have not been rushing that process because I recognize the y are the first operating agreements. There are a couple of issues that are still outstanding . I believe one of the m was the reporting relationships between CEOs and the Winnipeg Health Aut hority CEO.

One or two of the hospitals had some difficulty with there being any formal reporting relationship between their CEO and the WHA CEO, yet I understand under the fa ith-based agr eement, if my memory serves me correctly, there is recognit ion that there has to be a working relationship the re. So it has to be defined and that is being worked on today. The last report I had from Mr. Neil Fast was that he and Mr. Pete r Liba from St. Boniface and several of the others believe that it would probably take a couple of sessions to hammer out the final wording.

Ag ain part of the issue here is that we do not have necessarily a template, we do not have a past agree ment. We are really cutting new ground here, so you have to allow that process to take some time , but virtually all of the major operating issues have been worked out to my knowledge. Mr. Sale: Could the minister relate the purpose of his bill to the resolution of the operating agreements because the minister knows that we have very serious d

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-63b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 63b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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Identifier	ce1fed2e4f97c928f7863ccbaf1397058fc7e636

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