British Columbia Hansard — Monday, February 23, 2009

H0223pm-08

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session, 38th Parliament o FFicial rePort o F Debates of the Legis Lative a ssemb Ly (hansarD) the honourable bill bari So FF, SPeaker iSSn 0709-1281 Monday, February 23, 2009 Afternoon Sitting Volume 38, Number 8

Pro Vince o F britiS h colu Mbia (entered c onfederation July 20, 1871) lieutenant -Go Vernor h is h onour the h onourable Steven l. Point, obc Fifth Session, 38th Parliament SPeaker o F the leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y h onourable bill barisoff eXecutiVe council Premier and President of the executive c ouncil ......................................................................................................h on. Gordon c ampbell Minister of State for intergovernmental r elations ...........................................................................................................h on.

Joan Mcintyre Deputy Premier and Minister of education and Minister r esponsible for early l earning and l iteracy .........................................................................................h on. Shirley bond Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation .................................................................................................. h on. Michael de Jong Minister of a dvanced e ducation and l abour Market Development ............................................................................. h on.

Murray c oell Minister of a griculture and l ands ..................................................................................................................................... h on. r on c antelon a ttorney General and Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism .......................................................................... h on.

Wally o ppal, Qc Minister of c hildren and Family Development ..........................................................................................................h on. t om c hristensen Minister of State for c hildcare ................................................................................................................................................. h on. l inda r eid Minister of c ommunity Development ............................................................................................................................. h on. k evin k rueger Minister of energy, Mines and Petroleum r esources .....................................................................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Minister of State for Mining ................................................................................................................................................ h on.

Gordon h ogg Minister of environment and Minister r esponsible for c limate a ction .......................................................................h on. barry Penner Minister of Finance and Minister r esponsible for the o lympics .................................................................................. h on. c olin h ansen Minister of Forests and r ange ....................................................................................................................................................... h on.

Pat bell Minister of h ealth Services ................................................................................................................................................h on. George a bbott Minister of h ealthy l iving and Sport .....................................................................................................................................h on.

Mary Polak Minister of h ousing and Social Development .................................................................................................................h on. r ich c oleman Minister of l abour and citizens' Services ................................................................................................................................ h on. iain black Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General .........................................................................................................h on.

John van Dongen Minister of Small business, t echnology and e conomic Development and Minister r esponsible for the a sia-Pacific initiative .................................................................................................. h on. ida c hong Minister of t ourism, c ulture and the a rts ...........................................................................................................................h on. bill bennett Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure ...................................................................................................................h on. k evin Falcon leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y l eader of the official o pposition ...................................................................................................................................................c arole James Deputy Speaker ..............................................................................................................................................................................Sindi h awkins Deputy Speaker .....................................................................................................................................................................k atherine Whittred a ssistant Deputy Speaker ...............................................................................................................................................................Sue h ammell Deputy c hair, c ommittee of the Whole .......................................................................................................................................... h arry bloy c lerk of the l egislative a ssembly...................................................................................................................e.

George MacMinn, obc, Q c c lerk a ssistant ..................................................................................................................................................................................r obert Vaive c lerk a ssistant and l aw c lerk................................................................................................................................................. ian D. izard, Qc c lerk a ssistant and c lerk of c ommittees ................................................................................................................................. craig h.

James c lerk a ssistant and c ommittee c lerk .................................................................................................................................... k ate r yan-l loyd Sergeant-at-a rms .................................................................................................................................................................................

Gary l enz Director, h ansard Services ............................................................................................................................................................Jo-a nne k ern l egislative l ibrarian ............................................................................................................................................................................ Jane t aylor l egislative c omptroller .......................................................................................................................................................................

Dan a rbic

alP habetical liS t o F MeMberS a bbott, h on. George (l) ........................................................................ Shuswap a ustin, r obin (nDP) ................................................................................ Skeena bains, h arry (nDP) ....................................................................Surrey-n ewton barisoff, h on. bill (l) ............................................Penticton–o kanagan Valley bell, h on.

Pat (l) ...............................................................Prince George n orth bennett, h on. bill (l) ...................................................................e ast k ootenay black, h on. iain (l) ......................................................Port Moody–Westwood bloy, h arry (l) ....................................................................................burquitlam bond, h on. Shirley (l) ....................................Prince George–Mount r obson brar, Jagrup (nDP) .....................................................Surrey–Panorama r idge c ampbell, h on.

Gordon (l) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey c antelon, h on. r on (l) ......................................................n anaimo-Parksville c hong, h on. ida (l) ..................................................... o ak bay–Gordon h ead c houhan, r aj (nDP) ........................................................... burnaby-e dmonds c hristensen, h on. t om (l) ..................................................o kanagan-Vernon c hudnovsky, Dave (nDP) ........................................... Vancouver-kensington c oell, h on.

Murray (l) ....................................Saanich n orth and the islands c oleman, h on. r ich (l) ............................................Fort l angley–a ldergrove c onroy, katrine (nDP) ...........................................West kootenay–b oundary c oons, Gary (nDP) .........................................................................n orth c oast c ubberley, David (nDP) ..............................................................Saanich South de Jong, h on.

Michael (l) ................................... a bbotsford–Mount l ehman Dix, a drian (nDP) ............................................................Vancouver-kingsway e vans, c orky (nDP) ..................................................................n elson-creston Falcon, h on. k evin (l) ..........................................................Surrey-c loverdale Farnworth, Mike (nDP) ............................. Port c oquitlam–b urke Mountain Fleming, r ob (nDP) ................................................................

Victoria-h illside Fraser, Scott (nDP) ...............................................................a lberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (nDP) .........................................................................Delta n orth h ammell, Sue (nDP) .................................................... Surrey–Green t imbers h ansen, h on. c olin (l) .................................................. Vancouver-Quilchena h awes, r andy (l) ............................................................

Maple r idge–Mission h awkins, Sindi (l) ..................................................................k elowna-Mission h ayer, Dave S. (l) .................................................................... Surrey-t ynehead h erbert, Spencer (nDP) ..................................................... Vancouver-burrard h ogg, h on. Gordon (l) ......................................................

Surrey–White r ock h organ, John (nDP) .......................................................Malahat–Juan de Fuca h orning, a l (l) .............................................................k elowna–l ake c ountry ilich, o lga (l) .......................................................................... r ichmond c entre James, c arole (nDP) .........................................................Victoria–b eacon h ill Jarvis, Daniel (l) .................................................... n orth Vancouver–Seymour k aragianis, Maurine (nDP) ............................................e squimalt-Metchosin k rog, l eonard (nDP) ........................................................................... n anaimo k rueger, h on. k evin (l) .....................................k amloops–n orth Thompson kwan, Jenny Wai ching (nDP) ...........................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant l ali, h arry (nDP) ........................................................................... Y ale-lillooet l ee, r ichard t . (l) .......................................................................burnaby n orth l ekstrom, h on. blair (l) ....................................................... Peace r iver South l es, John (l) ............................................................................c hilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, n orm (nDP) ....................................c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke McGinn, Jenn (nDP) .........................................................

Vancouver-Fairview Mcintyre, h on. Joan (l) ........................................ West Vancouver–Garibaldi Mack ay, Dennis (l) ....................................................... bulkley Valley–Stikine n uraney, John (l) .............................................................. burnaby-Willingdon o ppal, h on. Wally, Qc (l) ........................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, hon. barry (l) .............................................................c hilliwack-k ent Polak, h on.

Mary (l) ...............................................................................l angley Puchmayr, c huck (nDP) .......................................................n ew Westminster r alston, bruce (nDP) ................................................................

Surrey-Whalley r eid, h on. l inda (l) ...................................................................r ichmond e ast r ichmond, c laude (l) .........................................................................k amloops r oddick, Valerie (l) ..........................................................................Delta South r outley, Doug (nDP) ......................................................c owichan-l adysmith r ustad, John (l) .......................................................... Prince George–omineca Sather, Michael (nDP) .........................................

Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows Simons, n icholas (nDP) ................................... Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast Simpson, bob (nDP) ...................................................................c ariboo n orth Simpson, Shane (nDP) .....................................................Vancouver-hastings Sultan, r alph (l) .....................................................

West Vancouver–capilano Thorne, Diane (nDP) .................................................c oquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, r ick (l) .................................................................. o kanagan-Westside t revena, c laire (nDP) .................................................................... n orth island van Dongen, h on.

John (l) ............................................a bbotsford-c layburn Whittred, k atherine (l) ........................................ n orth Vancouver–l onsdale Wyse, c harlie (nDP) ...................................................................c ariboo South Y ap, John (l) .......................................................................r ichmond-Steveston Vacant .............................................................................................. c omox Valley Vacant .......................................................................................Peace r iver n orth Vacant ....................................................................................

Vancouver-l angara liS t o F MeMberS bY riD in G a bbotsford-c layburn .................................................... h on. John van Dongen a bbotsford–Mount l ehman ...........................................h on. Michael de Jong a lberni-Qualicum .............................................................................

Scott Fraser bulkley Valley–Stikine ...............................................................Dennis Mack ay burnaby n orth .............................................................................. r ichard t . l ee burnaby-e dmonds ..........................................................................r aj c houhan burnaby-Willingdon .....................................................................

John n uraney burquitlam .......................................................................................... h arry bloy c ariboo n orth ................................................................................ bob Simpson c ariboo South................................................................................. c harlie Wyse c hilliwack-k ent.....................................................................h on. barry Penner c hilliwack-Sumas ..................................................................................

John l es c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke .................................................. n orm Macdonald c omox Valley..............................................................................................Vacant c oquitlam-Maillardville............................................................... Diane Thorne c owichan-l adysmith ...................................................................

Doug r outley Delta n orth ......................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South..................................................................................Valerie r oddick e ast k ootenay .......................................................................... h on. bill bennett e squimalt-Metchosin .........................................................Maurine k aragianis Fort l angley–a ldergrove ...................................................h on. r ich c oleman k amloops ................................................................................c laude r ichmond k amloops–n orth Thompson ............................................ h on. k evin k rueger k elowna–l ake c ountry ................................................................... a l h orning k elowna-Mission .........................................................................Sindi h awkins l angley.......................................................................................h on.

Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca ....................................................................John h organ Maple r idge–Mission ....................................................................r andy h awes Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................Michael Sather n anaimo ......................................................................................... l eonard k rog n anaimo-Parksville .............................................................h on. r on c antelon n elson-creston ................................................................................ c orky evans n ew Westminster .................................................................... c huck Puchmayr n orth c oast.......................................................................................

Gary c oons n orth island .................................................................................. c laire t revena n orth Vancouver–l onsdale ............................................... k atherine Whittred n orth Vancouver–Seymour ...........................................................

Daniel Jarvis o ak bay–Gordon h ead ............................................................ h on. ida c hong o kanagan-Vernon ..........................................................h on. t om c hristensen o kanagan-Westside .........................................................................r ick Thorpe Peace r iver n orth ......................................................................................Vacant Peace r iver South ...............................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Penticton–o kanagan Valley................................................... h on. bill barisoff Port c oquitlam–b urke Mountain ...........................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood .............................................................h on. iain black Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast ................................................. n icholas Simons Prince George n orth .......................................................................h on.

Pat bell Prince George–Mount r obson ............................................h on. Shirley bond Prince George–omineca ................................................................. John r ustad r ichmond c entre ................................................................................. o lga ilich r ichmond e ast ..........................................................................h on. l inda r eid r ichmond-Steveston ..............................................................................John Y ap Saanich n orth and the islands ........................................... h on.

Murray c oell Saanich South ........................................................................... David c ubberley Shuswap ...............................................................................h on.

George a bbott Skeena .............................................................................................. r obin a ustin Surrey-c loverdale .................................................................h on. k evin Falcon Surrey–Green t imbers ..................................................................Sue h ammell Surrey-n ewton ................................................................................. h arry b ains Surrey–Panorama r idge ...................................................................Jagrup brar Surrey-t ynehead ...........................................................................

Dave S. h ayer Surrey-Whalley.............................................................................. bruce r alston Surrey–White r ock ............................................................. h on. Gordon h ogg Vancouver-burrard ....................................................................Spencer h erbert Vancouver-Fairview .......................................................................Jenn McGinn Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................h on.

Wally o ppal, Qc Vancouver-hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-kensington ........................................................David c hudnovsky Vancouver-kingsway..........................................................................a drian Dix Vancouver-l angara ....................................................................................Vacant Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ......................................... Jenny Wai ching kwan Vancouver–Point Grey .................................................h on.

Gordon c ampbell Vancouver-Quilchena ..........................................................h on. c olin h ansen Victoria–b eacon h ill .......................................................................c arole James Victoria-h illside ..............................................................................r ob Fleming West kootenay–b oundary ........................................................ k atrine c onroy West Vancouver–capilano ............................................................. r alph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ................................................h on.

Joan Mcintyre Y ale-lillooet ......................................................................................... h arry l ali Party Standings: l iberal 42; n ew Democratic 34; Vacant 3

CONTENTS Monday, February 23, 2009 a fternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page introductions by Members ................................................................................................................................................... 13881 Statements (Standing order 25 b) ........................................................................................................................................ 13882 h ockeyville competition D. Mackay Forest industry in b.c. D. r outley a lternative energy companies in burnaby r . l ee Jim Wakely M.

Sather Volunteer organizations in r ichmond-Steveston area J. Y ap Swan l ake–c hristmas h ill n ature Sanctuary r . Fleming oral Questions ....................................................................................................................................................................... 13884 budget revenue projections c. Jame s h on. c. h ansen b. r alston r . Fleming impact of fuel tax on economy J. h organ h on. c. h ansen Mackenzie pulp mill b. Simpson h on. P . bell S. Simpson h on. b. Penner School access for refugee child n.

Simon s h on. t . c hristensen Funding for adoption system r . a ustin h on. t . c hristensen c omments by a griculture Minister on Parksville watershed S. Fraser h on. r . c antelon Petitions .................................................................................................................................................................................. 13889 M. Sather S. Simpson

c ommittee of Supply ............................................................................................................................................................ 13890 Supplementary estimates: Ministry of c ommunity Development (continued) h on. k. k rueger c. Wys e M. k aragianis G. c oons b. Simpson h. b ains b. r alston c. e vans J. h organ G. Gentner r . Fleming J. brar n. Macdonal d Supplementary estimates: Ministry of a dvanced e ducation and l abour Market Development h on. M. c oell r . Fleming b. r alston Supplementary e stimates: Ministry of h ousing and Social Development h on. r . c oleman J. kwan M. Sather c. e vans

13881 MonD a Y , Februar Y 23, 2009 The h ouse met at 1:34 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Introductions by Members Hon. W . Oppal: in the h ouse today we have two visitors from southern c alifornia, Peter Friedrichsen and h orst e richsen. W ould the h ouse please join me in welcoming them to the h ouse and in asking that they continue to visit british c olumbia. S. Simpson: i am pleased to introduce some guests that are with us today: r aigen D'a ngelo, a my Fox, emily Morgan and Sandra l aframboise.

They are here with the t rans a lliance Society, which is an organization of transgendered activists who are dedicated to providing education to the general public about the issues that their community faces. [1335] They're with us today to witness our proceedings and to be here for the introduction of a petition later on today that will ask this h ouse to amend the h uman r ights c ode to include gender identity and gender expres - sion as prohibited grounds of discrimination in british c olumbia. Please make them welcome. Hon. S. Bond: i am delighted today to have two friends who are constituents here with us.

They're from Prince George. They are a l and Gladys Thorpe. i know them very well from their work with the e lder c itizens r ecreation a ssociation. a l is quite renowned for his acting and singing and, i guess, dancing ability, but we're delighted to have them here. We're always pleased to have people travel from northern b.c. to join us. Please join me in making them feel very welcome today. M. Farnworth: in the h ouse today are a group who have been very active on public safety issues in the prov- ince of british columbia.

That's Fact — Families a gainst crime and t rauma. in the gallery are the president, David t oner; the executive director, Sandra Martins-t oner; Gord Penner; Dave Marley; Donna McMillan; Jean l ewis; James l ewis; Darryl brown; Paul Glover and Debi Glover. Would the house please make them most welcome. R. Sultan: in the precinct are John and c athy c ave, proprietors of t ake o ff e h c ruise and t ravel. if you book through John c ave, he will come and pick you up and take you to the dock or the airport in his c adillac limousine for nothing. D.

Routley: i'd like the h ouse to help me welcome a guest of mine. it's Dave r ubenstein. Dave has been a c obble h ill–Duncan area activist for a long time in that he served on a c obble h ill–area advisory com - mittee. h e's been 16 years at the Cowichan Valley Citizen newspaper. h e's served in radio and television. h e's a member of the c owichan Valley Therapeutic r iding a ssociation and gives great service to that organization.

This is a man who's in touch with his community. t oday we shared our thoughts on the diversity of the valley that we live in, the many places that…. a lthough i've lived there since 1964, i still experience new things there. So i want the h ouse to help me thank Dave for his service to our community and for his friendship to me. D. MacKay: l ooking up in the gallery today, i see a young man from Smithers, which is located in the beautiful bulkley Valley. Just a reminder that it is still winter up north.

We sometimes forget that when we're down here. kyle is down in Victoria today, and he told me at lunch today that the last time he was in this building was when he was in grade 8. l ooking at you today, kyle, i suspect that was two years ago. So i would ask the h ouse to please make kyle wel - come to this chamber. C. Wyse: it is indeed my pleasure today to introduce three guests that i have here. Firstly, i'd like to introduce my niece Joanne beagle. Joanne is a longtime resident of the Victoria area. Joanne is accompanied by her in-laws Don and Joyce beagle.

Finally, i would also like to welcome my lifelong friend, companion and wife Sheila Wyse, who is also with us. i'd ask us to join in making all four of them welcome. Hon. P . Bell: Joining us in the gallery today are t erry h off and brent r eid. t erry and brent are both leaders with the ce P in c ampbell r iver at the e lk Falls mill. They're strong leaders in their community. Their people believe in the long term of the pulp industry in the province of british c olumbia, and they're down talking to me, look- ing for creative solutions to make that a reality.

Would the h ouse please make both of them very welcome. S. Herbert: i rise to welcome k elly r ead, who is a constituency assistant for the Mla for Vancouver- k ensington, her daughter n ikki and her son Michael. Please make them very welcome. it's their first day in the h ouse. Hon. L. Reid: We're joined in the precincts today by Jennifer burnett, formerly of this place and currently the ceo and registrar of the c ollege of Dental h ygienists. i would ask the h ouse to please make her very welcome. [1340]

british c olumbia Debates13882 Monday, February 23, 2009 Hon. K. Falcon: t oday in the gallery we're joined by a longtime member of the aggregate industry. t ed c arlson is with us, involved in building many of the roads and highways and buildings throughout the province of british columbia. h e's also joined by his cousin Julian c arlson, who is involved in the real estate development business. i would ask the house to please make them welcome. Hon. M.

Coell: in the h ouse today are brenda Marin-l ink and r oland l ink, who live in my constituency in Sidney. brenda used to work for the a uditor General in the province. Would the h ouse please make them both welcome. C. Trevena: i, too, would like to welcome my con - stituents from the e lk Falls mill. i think the h ouse is very well aware that we've got an indefinite closure there, and i hope that a solution is found very speedily so everybody can get back to work. Statements (Standing Order 25b) hocke YVille co MPetition D.

MacKay: it's that time of year again, when towns all across c anada compete to win the coveted title of h ockeyville 2009. h ockey is not only c anada's official winter sport, but it is a large part of our life and culture and is a source of pride in the rural communities, espe - cially in the north. i know that from getting up at five o'clock Saturday mornings with my grandson. every year towns from across c anada compete to win the $100,000 for improvements to the local arena and a chance to host the nhl exhibition game and, most importantly, bragging rights.

This year t errace was named as one of the top five towns in c anada, garnering over 382,000 votes in just four days of voting to earn that spot. We've never won h ockeyville in b.c. We came close three years ago when the town of Smithers, in my con - stituency, qualified as a finalist. We came so close.

We now have another great opportunity to show our love of hockey and sports as well as to demonstrate our community spirit as we gear up for the 2010 Winter o lympics and Paralympic Winter Games. i'd like to ask all british c olumbians to cast their votes for the city of t errace and lend them our support as we show the rest of c anada our b.c. pride. Good luck to t errace in the final hours of the competition. Fore St in Du Str Y in b.c . D. Routley: i rise today to speak about forestry.

Forestry in b.c. is a story of connections — the con - nections between the history of our great province and our many great communities supported by this great industry. My friend r ick Doman, who is a past ceo of Western Forest Products, talks about his dad h erb Doman and the connections between the men of timber who built that industry. it's about towns like l ake c owichan in my constitu - ency, where the first pay equity struggle was fought in this country for the a sian and South a sian workers, as opposed to their white counterparts.

That has led to some of the diversity that we see in this h ouse today. lake cowichan was the birthplace of the iWa union. it's about the connections between logging and sawmills and pulp mills. it's about the connection between the people — loggers and millers and tree-planters. it's about the heavy equipment manufacturers, the wire rope sellers, the bearings sellers and dealers, right through to the small businesses in our communities supported by the industry. it's about the link between our resources and our com- munities, the link between the benefit of those resources and the support of the services we enjoy — health and education. it's about the links to our past, our present and our future. it's about the links between peoples — the Sikhs i mentioned, the first nations that we represent and their rights to resources.

This is a renewable industry, a green industry. Forestry is the key to our future. Forestry is the key to our con - tinued prosperity. l et this h ouse make a renewed commitment to maintaining that excellent industry. alternatiVe ener GY c o MPanieS in burnabY R. Lee: Developing and improving technologies to produce alternative renewable energy in an environ - mentally responsible way is one of the key challenges we face today. Many burnaby companies are working to create a greener planet. burnaby is now home to half of the largest 14 alternative energy companies in b.c.

We have ballard Power Systems, Xantrex t echnology, h ydrogenics t est Systems, azure Dynamics, Day4 energy and l ignol innovations. [1345] l ast month i had the opportunity to revisit ballard Power Systems. ballard is the leading company that designs, develops and manufactures zero-emission proton exchange membrane fuel cells. it was the only industry in c anada visited by the chinese president hu Jintao in 2005. engineers at ballard are working hard to encourage fuel cell proton product adoption by both industry and the public.

Xantrex t echnology is a world leader in advanced power electronics, focusing on the renewable and mobile market. in 2001 i had the opportunity to witness a joint venture in the making between Xantrex and Shanghai e lectric during the Premier's visit to Shanghai. Xantrex specializes in converting and controlling raw electrical power from various power resources into high-quality

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, February 23, 2009 13883 power required by electronic equipment and the elec - tricity grid. t ekion Solutions, which is in the business of com - mercialization of micro fuel cell technology, is a prime example of the success of the provincial nominee pro - gram. This program attracted experienced scientists, engineers and marketers into this province. The work that l ignol innovations is doing in this area is of great importance. l ignol innovations recently received $1.82 million in funding for a biomass pilot project in burnaby.

They will use the funding to work on turning wood waste into fuel-grade bioethanol and biochemicals through biorefining technology. i'm proud our companies in burnaby are taking the lead in investing in green technology. JiM Wakel Y M. Sather: Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows is mourning the death of inspector Jim Wakely of the r idge Meadows rcMP on February 13. inspector Wakely served three terms with r idge Meadows rcMP , most recently rejoining the detachment as inspector in 2006.

Jim Wakely was known as a man of character and was widely respected in Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows. h e was a strong family man, a religious man and a man of wit and good humour. i was pleased to meet with inspector Wakely not long after he returned to r idge Meadows for his last tour of duty. h e struck me as an intelligent, thoughtful and open individual. i got to know Jim better during his consistent attend - ance at Maple r idge business improvement association meetings. h e was a strong defender of the work of his staff, but when fair criticism was levelled at the work of the detachment, he would not hesitate to say: "That's not acceptable.

We will do better." i was very impressed with inspector Wakely's ability to make significant changes in the relationship between his detachment and survival sex trade workers in Maple r idge. h e realized that the standard procedure of moving these women on or arresting them was not a solution. h e took it upon himself to learn more about the social and addiction issues of our sex trade work - ers, and soon the detachment was developing a positive relationship with many of these women, helping them to be safer and to get the help they need.

Jim Wakely was a trail-blazer whose work will make Maple r idge and Pitt Meadows better places to live in perpetuity. h e will be missed in our communities. Volunteer o r GanizationS in rich Mon D-Ste Ve Ston a rea J. Y ap: i rise today to recognize the efforts of a group of local not-for-profit societies in my community. The Group of Seven is a collection of grass-roots volunteer groups that work diligently to improve r ichmond and the village of Steveston.

The group includes the Gulf of Georgia c annery Society, the britannia h eritage Shipyard Society, the l ondon h eritage Farm historical society, the Steveston Museum, the Steveston c ommunity Society, the r otary club of Steveston and the Steveston h arbour a uthority. e ach of these groups work for the greater good by engaging community members and coordinating volun- teer efforts to produce a variety of programs and events in r ichmond and Steveston.

The volunteer-run services they provide range from the weekly park cleanup by the r otary club of Steveston, the guided tours available at the britannia h eritage Shipyard, the volunteer-maintained gardens at the l ondon h eritage Farm to the Steveston Salmon Festival on c anada Day by the Steveston c ommunity Society, which features one of the l ower Mainland's longest-running annual parades.

The facilities and programs operated by the Group of Seven help preserve r ichmond's past, and i'm confident the strong volunteer spirit they foster will thrive into the future. [1350] i'd also like to recognize the people leading these organizations. l oren Slye, l arry t olton, r on h yde, Graham t urnbull, Jim k ojima, Doug n ielsen and bob baziuk are all working very hard for our community. Their leadership efforts are supported by a number of integral volunteers, including James McMillan, r alph t urner, eileen c arefoot, bob butterworth, c harmis De boer, Stan Watterson and edith t urner.

The Group of Seven truly exemplifies the best of r ichmond-Steveston, a strong and healthy commun - ity spirit that shines through on these economic times, making our community a better place in which to live, work, play and raise a family. SWan lake–chri St Ma S hill nature Sanctuar Y R. Fleming: t oday i would like to recognize before the h ouse an incredible education centre in my constitu- ency, the Swan l ake–c hristmas h ill n ature Sanctuary. This protected land has two distinct areas: the marshy lowlands surrounding Swan l ake and the rocky, oak- forested highlands of c hristmas h ill.

The Swan l ake–c hristmas h ill n ature Sanctuary is a registered charitable organization run by the society. The lands and facilities are owned by the district of Saanich, and the nature sanctuary society has operated through a land management agreement with Saanich since 1975. The mission of the society is to manage the wetlands and the wildlife and provide a first-class interpretive experience with nature, including guided bird walks. The Swan l ake and christmas h ill sections are connected by a trail corridor, a 2.5-kilometre looped trail that includes

british c olumbia Debates13884 Monday, February 23, 2009 wharves and a floating walkway to provide access to the lake area. While appealing to both young and old, the sanctuary offers school-age children, in particular, an opportunity to develop their sense of personal responsibility for the care and protection of the natural environment. Swan l ake was rescued from oblivion just a few decades ago. During much of its recent history it was a dumping ground for raw sewage and dairy farms. c leanup began in the 1970s, and today the lake is rich habitat for a variety of wildlife.

The sanctuary offers a wide variety of programs for my constituents during every season of the year, and the staff and volunteers have designed programs to be both fun and an unforgettable experience. i invite all members of this h ouse to join me in thank- ing those involved with the Swan l ake–c hristmas h ill n ature Sanctuary for their ongoing commitment and their hard work protecting and enhancing the terrain and wildlife in this area. Oral Questions buDGet re Venue Pro JectionS C.

James: The minister's e conomic Forecast c ouncil asked to meet with the government before the budget because they believed the government's forecasts were overly optimistic. but the government refused to hear the truth, and now we know why. h ere's the b.c. c entral credit u nion take on this government's budget. They ask a question. "how do the budget's economic assumptions stand up to the avail - able data?" "badly" is their conclusion. i quote from the report. "The likelihood of this budget's 2009 forecast missing the mark by a wide margin is high." My question is to the Minister of Finance.

Why should british c olumbians believe this government's budget when it's clear that the experts don't? Hon. C. Hansen: The e conomic Forecast c ouncil is made up of 12 of the leading economists from across c anada. We met with them in early December. They provided their latest forecasts for british c olumbia, for c anada and for the u nited States for the coming years.

We also, at that time, gave them an opportunity to update their forecasts by the middle of January, should they wish to do so. by the middle of January the average GDP forecast of the 12 of them was that the b.c . economy would not grow, that it would actually be at zero percent. a s is always the case, we took some added prudence into the budget, and we based our economic outlook at minus 0.9 percent for GDP for 2009. We think that's prudent. We think it actually allows for a further deteri- oration of the economy, should that happen. if anything, the budget is based on conservative projections. Mr.

Speaker: The l eader of the o pposition has a supplemental. [1355] C. James: it's certainly not what the b.c. c entral credit u nion is saying. This budget is a sham. a key member of the government's own economic…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. C. James: i quote again from the report. "r evenue in 2009-10 is not likely to be realized," said Mr. Pastrick's report. a gain to the minister. This budget is built on sand. The experts don't believe the government's numbers. Why should the public believe those numbers? Hon. C.

Hansen: There is a difference in the way that budgets are put together in this decade. it's not like the 1990s, when the politicians invented numbers on rev - enue and plugged them into the budget. We actually based our projections on independent, verifiable, third- party, objective input. This is a government that in the last seven years has met every single one of its budget projections. in the 1990s we had a government that tabled fiscal plan after fiscal plan and never met a single objective in those plans. That is one of the reasons why this province went through significant credit downgrades in the 1990s.

The responsible delivery of fiscal management of the prov - ince of british c olumbia is the reason why today this province has the highest credit rating of any province in c anada. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. t he l eader of the o pposition has a further supplemental. C. James: The Finance Minister talked about indica - tors. l et's take a look at what the credit union says about those indicators. The government missed the mark on housing and sales tax. Mr. Pastrick called it a large miss.

That's what his report says, budget line after budget line. h ousing starts — "too rosy." employment income — "overstated." Sales tax revenue — "wildly optimistic." it's not me saying this. it's h elmut Pastrick, one of the most highly respected economists in british c olumbia. So my question, again, is to the minister. Why should british c olumbians trust, when it comes to honesty and accuracy of this budget, when we have a Premier who is in damage control and an economist who says the

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, February 23, 2009 13885 government has completely missed the mark when it comes to this budget? Hon. C. Hansen: a s the l eader of the o pposition may know, h elmut Pastrick is one of the 12 members of our e conomic Forecast c ouncil, and Mr. Pastrick's…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat for a second. c ontinue. Hon. C. Hansen: Mr. Pastrick's rather pessimistic view of the british c olumbia economy is not shared by the other 11 economists on the e conomic Forecast c ouncil.

So i can tell the l eader of the o pposition that the numbers upon which we based the budget are the average of the outlook from the e conomic Forecast c ouncil, including the opinions of Mr. Pastrick. i think what you will find is that we've built additional prudence into the budget. i stand by our track record as a government in deliv - ering on our budget plan, and i have full confidence that we will do that. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. B.

Ralston: Well, as the minister will know, the cibc and the bank of Montreal economists have also down - graded their forecast. but let's have another quote from the report of the b.c. c entral credit u nion. "a deficit of $1 billion to $1.5 bil - lion, or 0.6 percent of GDP , in 2009-10 is the more likely outcome due to revenue shortfalls." Very clear. Y ou can't trust the budget. Y ou can't trust the b.c. l iberals. My question to the Minister of Finance is: why should british c olumbians accept this budget when the Premier's own economic experts are rejecting it? [1400] Hon. C.

Hansen: t o the Finance critic and the offi - cial opposition: you know, what british c olumbians are actually waiting for is to find out what the nDP stand for. We know what they stand against. h ere's a Finance critic from the official opposition who in n ovember was saying that if they were govern - ment, they would bring in a balanced budget. They would knock an $880 million hole in the revenue stream.

They would jack up health spending by $2 billion, according to the h ealth critic, and somehow they were still going to magically produce a balanced budget. if there is any challenge in credibility in this h ouse, it's with the offi - cial opposition. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. B. Ralston: Wriggle and squirm. Wriggle and squirm. british c olumbians…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: t ake your seat. Members. Members. c ontinue, Member. B. Ralston: british c olumbians don't trust the budget that this Minister of Finance has brought forward. h is credibility is in question.

So will the minister commit today to revising his budget and telling the truth about the b.c. economy? Hon. C. Hansen: i guess what the member is sug - gesting is that we should maybe go back to 1996 and look for examples about how politicians manipulate budget revenue numbers. in this government we do not do that. We rely on independent, outside expert advice in terms of revenue projections.

We rely on a highly qualified, excellent public service in the Ministry of Finance. if what the member is suggesting is that somehow i should table a new budget that puts in my numbers instead of those of the experts and those of the officials, quite frankly, i reject that. We're not going back to the kind of Glen c lark budget-making we saw in the 1990s. R.

Fleming: The problem with this budget is that many of its key assumptions don't square with the facts. l et's look at retail sales in british c olumbia — declin - ing today. a Statsc an report shows holiday retail sales were down 10 percent this year compared to the year prior. l eading banks are describing the retail situation in british c olumbia as being "in full-blown retreat," and yet this budget assumes retail sales will not only grow in 2009, but they'll grow faster in this year than the three years after that. l et me clarify with the Finance Minister. is he saying that if the facts get in the way of his budget fiction, we should just take his a ttorney General's word for it and think beyond the numbers? or will he admit that the numbers in this budget aren't based in reality?

Hon. C. Hansen: i think what we're seeing from the nDP today is what british c olumbians have come to know about this political party over the last number of years — negative, dismal and pessimistic. We actually rely on expert advice in terms of budget- making. We actually know that british c olumbia is going through a difficult stretch in the economy, as caused by outside global factors. but we also know that this is a province that is resilient, and this is a province

british c olumbia Debates13886 Monday, February 23, 2009 that is going into this economic downturn with a solid economic base. We believe this is a province that's going to be even stronger when we come out of it. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. R. Fleming: The problem, again, is that this budget isn't based on reality. The minister has attacked eco - nomic independent forecasters who've said as much. Presumably, he attacks the deputy minister who's now in charge of the credit u nion c entral of b.c., who pro - duced prior budgets under his watch.

The budget misses the mark on revenue projections, and that's the problem. its forecasts are overly optimistic. it does nothing to restore consumer confidence. [1405] a gain to the Minister of Finance: when is he going to admit that his forecasts in this budget document are pure fiction? Hon. C. Hansen: a s i indicated earlier, the budget revenue projections that are built into this budget are based on independent outside experts.

They are also based on the revenue numbers and work and analysis that was done by some of the finest public servants that you're going to find anywhere in c anada, who work for the Ministry of Finance. i know that the opposition wants to be dismal. i know they want to be pessimistic. i know that they would actually love it if the economy of british c olumbia failed relative to everybody else. but we know that british c olumbia is going to come through this economic downturn and be a stronger province as a result.

This is a province that's going to fare better than just about any other jurisdiction in n orth a merica, and it's because of the sound fiscal management that's coming from this administration. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. iMPact o F Fuel ta X on e cono MY J. Horgan: l et's talk about some of these revenue numbers for a moment and go back to where we are cer- tain that this government is going to be gouging british c olumbians, and that's with the gas tax. We know that the gas tax is going to triple over the next 14 months in this province. My question to the minister is quite a simple one.

Y ou decided to ignore consumers across british c olumbia, making them pay a tax that no other province in c anada pays, no other jurisdiction in n orth a merica pays. Did you do an economic analysis of how many jobs we will lose as a result of the $500 million you're going to be yanking out of the economy with your gas tax? What are the numbers? h ow many jobs? Hon. C. Hansen: i think this also speaks to just how disingenuous the opposition is. What they have said is that they were somehow still going to balance a budget.

They were going to ramp up health funding by $2 billion a year, and they were going to eliminate that $880 mil - lion revenue stream. l et me talk about job benefits for a second. l et's talk about the tax reductions in british c olumbia that have been funded from that revenue stream, because it is 100 percent revenue-neutral. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. C.

Hansen: l et's talk about the job benefits that come out of reducing the small business tax rate down to 2.5 percent. l et's talk about the economic stimulus that the 5 percent reduction in provincial income tax is going to have on the b.c. economy when that money gets reinjected back into the b.c. economy. That rev - enue stream funds assistance for the industrial and light industrial parts of the province. There are new benefits coming down for the agricul - ture community, where they're going to get a 50 percent reduction in their education taxes. l et's also talk…. Mr. Speaker: Thank you, Minister. J.

Horgan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, in anticipation of my supplemental. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. J. Horgan: i got up. i was anxious to get back at the minister. i mentioned pixie dust last week. interjection. J. Horgan: Y ou're supposed to sprinkle it, not snort it, Minister. The problem with the way you're going with this…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. J. Horgan: british c olumbians across…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Just take your seat.

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, February 23, 2009 13887 interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. c hoose your words wisely, Member. J.

Horgan: british c olumbians across this province are paying more to move around as a result of this government's policies — $500 million out of the econ - omy this year as a result of a gas tax that's not paid by a lbertans. it's not paid by people from ontario. it's not paid by people from Washington State. c onsumers, businesses, health authorities and school districts are all having to make higher costs because of this government. is that your idea of stimulus? is that your idea of stimulus — taking money out of taxpayers' pockets when they can least afford it? [1410] Hon. C.

Hansen: in my previous answer, the one thing i didn't get to was the rural and northern homeowner benefit which again, because of this revenue stream, is going to see an extra $200 a year in homeowner grants for northern and rural homeowners. i recommend to the member that he actually go to the budget documents. it's about page 110 maybe. i don't know the exact page. in there he will find examples of typical b.c. families from the north, from the south, from the island, from the cities, with big cars or little cars.

What he will find is evidence on those pages that shows that every single family in british c olumbia that we can model gets more money in their pockets because of the tax reductions they get than they would ever be paying out in the way of carbon taxes. Mackenzie PulP Mill B. Simpson: Would the Minister of Forests please explain to the people of british c olumbia why he let a convicted money launderer buy a chlorine-based pulp mill in Mackenzie? Hon. P .

Bell: The member opposite should know that that sale was conducted under receivership proceedings by Pricewaterhousec oopers and that it was approved by the Supreme c ourt of british c olumbia. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. The member has a supplemental. B. Simpson: The minister should know that the prov- ince had rights in front of that court to protect the public interest. The minister should know that he interfered in the exact same court proceedings to protect logging con- tractors' rights in the k ootenays.

The minister knows all of this. but the minister has an "i'll hold up the sky; don't worry, be happy" approach to this downturn in the forest market. h ere's what he said on Prince George radio shortly after this money launderer took over this mill: "We have a new player in the pulp industry. i think it's particularly good news and adds value to Mackenzie and certainly to the entire province." Y es, that's really played out. The people in Mackenzie do not trust this company.

Will the minister stand up today and confirm that he still believes this is a credible company and that they will open this mill sometime soon? Does he believe that? Hon. P . Bell: Y ou know, Mackenzie has gone through some very challenging times. i was in Mackenzie a week and a bit ago. in fact, i spent most of the day on Sunday dealing with a very dangerous chemical spill in that plant. The employees at that plant, admirably, dealt profession- ally with it. They did everything that was necessary. They put themselves at risk dealing with that. This has been a very challenging file from day one.

The sale proceedings in this particular court…. interjections. Hon. P . Bell: if members opposite want to use that kind of language, i'd suggest they use it outside when you're not under the protection of this h ouse. Perhaps you'd like to use some of that language outside and see if it stands up. This decision was made by Pricewaterhousec oopers. it was recommended to the Supreme c ourt of british c olumbia. The decision was made by the Supreme c ourt Justice, and that's the way the decision was made on it. S.

Simpson: We can all be thankful that the workers at Mackenzie protected the public interest by keep - ing this mill warm even after the owner, Worthington Properties, stopped paying their wages. This is the same company that the Forests Minister called a credible new player in the pulp industry. t o the Minister of Forests: who owns the mill today, and more importantly, who is responsible for the growing environmental uncertainty and its multi-million-dollar cleanup? Hon. B.

Penner: The province of british c olumbia does take the environment seriously, and that's why we took action in January to make sure that direction was given for the proper administration of that pulp mill. That pulp mill remains the legal ownership of Worthington. They remain legally committed to repaying the province of british c olumbia for the funds that we're expending to keep the public and the environment safe. [1415]

british c olumbia Debates13888 Monday, February 23, 2009 in the meantime we're doing whatever it takes, in cooperation with the local unionized employees and non-unionized employees at that mill site, to make sure the environment is looked after. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. S. Simpson: This Minister of Forests did everything he could to take credit when Worthington bought this mill, but this government did not do one iota of due diligence on this company before allowing the sale. a s a result, we have an abject failure on our hands.

We've created a situation that is worse today for the people in that community than when Pope and t albot went under. Given the mess that the Premier and this government have created for british c olumbians, how can anybody have confidence about having no more future environ - mental mess-ups? is there a plan to deal with this long term, and if there is, will the minister table the plan today? Hon. B. Penner: Y ou know, the opposition should be ashamed of themselves. The people in Mackenzie have been through a lot of difficulty, and to hear this doom and gloom from the opposition doesn't help any.

We are working constructively with the people of Mackenzie. That's why this morning in the media one of the repre - sentatives for the community of Mackenzie said that it was a good thing that the province of british c olumbia stepped in, in the way that we have. We're making sure that the workers are getting paid. is the opposition suggesting they shouldn't get paid?

We're making sure that they are getting paid, and the cheques were delivered last week, courtesy of the prov - ince of british c olumbia. i'd like to just close again by thanking in particular c arl bernasky and t om boughner, two people working on that jobsite who are working closely with the Ministry of environment, the province of british c olumbia, to do what's best for the people in Mackenzie. We will hold accountable the owners of that mill. School acceSS For reFuGee chilD N.

Simons: t oday the r epresentative for c hildren and Y outh released a report about vulnerable children in the justice system in british c olumbia.

That report reminded us that a stable home environment and attach- ment to school supports are key to reducing a child's risk of being involved in crime. a lmost three weeks ago the Premier said he would look into the case of a young r wandan refugee who, after living in a series of foster homes, has chosen a home where he feels safe and part of the family — and where he gets into less trouble, i might add. but he's being for- bidden by the Ministry of c hildren and Families to be allowed to attend school. it's been almost three weeks since this minister found out about this case, and it's been four months since that young man has been living in that home.

Why won't the minister let that young man attend school? Hon. T. Christensen: Well, it's incredibly disingenu - ous of the member to raise the question in this h ouse when he well knows that under british c olumbia's child protection legislation, the minister is not at liberty to share details of any individual file. The member has been offered and been provided a briefing in respect of matters. The member has been advised that if he provides a consent form that we can share information, we would be more than happy to fully brief him on this matter. Fun Din G For aD o Ption SYSte M R.

Austin: in Skeena i know of nine families that want to adopt foster children, who have been obstructed by the underfunding of the Ministry of c hildren and Families. Some of these families have been waiting four years for a home visit so that they can be approved as adoptive parents, while the children they so desperately want to adopt spend their childhoods shifting between homes and between social workers. h ow could the minister approve a budget that cuts more than a hundred staff from a ministry that is already incapable of providing timely aid to children and families? Hon. T.

Christensen: Well, it's worth comparing the record of this government on adoption to the record of that government. When we first became government, there were about 150 adoptions that year. l ast year there were over 350 adoptions. [1420] The budget for the Ministry of c hildren and Family Development as presented last week is an increasing budget.

We will spend more next year than we did this year and more the year after that. in fact, we're spending 40 percent more today than we did in 2000-2001, and we're ensuring that those dollars are making a difference in the lives of children and families across the province as we serve thousands more children. co MMent S bY a Griculture Mini Ster on P arkSVille WaterS heD S.

Fraser: on Friday the Minister of a griculture con- tacted the a rrowsmith W atersheds Society and apologized for the inaccurate and misleading statements that he made in this h ouse in Thursday's question period about old-growth logging in the e nglishman r iver. The minister

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, February 23, 2009 13889 apologized in private. Will he now apologize to this h ouse for making inaccurate and misleading statements to the members of the legislature and to the record of Hansard? Hon. R.

Cantelon: once again, i want to assure this h ouse that no one is more concerned than the people on this side of the h ouse with the protection of our watersheds, our important watersheds in the o ceanside area — than we are. i want to say to the a rrowsmith Watersheds c oalition Society that i used the wrong acronym, a Wc S. i should have said the a rrowsmith Water Service, which is comprised of representatives from Parksville, from Qualicum beach and from the regional district, who indeed took

part in the watershed assessment portfolio plan to protect the watershed in this sensitive area. Y es, i did call on Friday night, when i was made aware that i'd used the wrong word, to apologize to them. i've talked to Michael Jessen, and he accepted my apologies. i now set the record straight here. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. S. Fraser: Thursday's question period was the first, i believe, for this minister. it was zero for one. i think he's going zero for two. There are photographs of the logging site — dev - astated logging site.

There is a press release from the a rrowsmith Parks and l and-u se c ouncil and e-mails from the a rrowsmith Watersheds c oalition Society, and they prove that everything the minister said in the last question period was inaccurate. n ow, an apology for the record. Will the minister clarify that he withdraws those statements, that they were incorrect and that he will actually stand up and protect the watershed of the people of the region? interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. R. Cantelon: l et me reiterate.

We are concerned. it's of paramount interest to the citizens, to the constitu- ents of the o ceanside area and to this side of the h ouse. Watershed protection is the top of our priority. l et me reiterate, for those who perhaps inaccurately recorded the information i gave them in the last Hansard, that only 21 trees were removed from this watershed area, of a total of 228 possible harvestable trees. They were done through a method called snap and fly where the trees are helicopter-logged out of the site. interjections. Hon. R. Cantelon: Well, as a matter of fact, only two hit the ground… interjections. Hon. R.

Cantelon: …and for this member opposite…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat. Members. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. R. Cantelon: For the member opposite: immediately after this procedure happened, Depart - ment of Fisheries attended. The representatives from the company, a biologist and a geotech, attended, and a DFo official commented, saying he wished that all of them were done as well as this one was done and that no danger to the watershed existed from this operation. [end of question period.] interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. We're just going to wait a second. M.

Sather: i seek leave to present a petition. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. [1425] Petitions M. Sather: i have here a petition with 616 residents calling on the government to save the a lbion Ferry. S. Simpson: i ask leave to submit a petition. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. S. Simpson: h on. Speaker, as we know, transgendered and transsexual citizens in b.c . have faced a long and tragic history of discrimination, as they have elsewhere.

This is a petition by 740 citizens for the t rans a lliance Society asking that the b.c . h uman r ights c ode be amended to include gender identity and gender expres - sion as prohibited grounds of discrimination for all purposes in b ritish c olumbia. Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: i call c ommittee of Supply — for the information of members, ongoing discussion on the supplementary estimates.

british c olumbia Debates13890 Monday, February 23, 2009 Committee of Supply Su PPle Mentar Y e Sti Mate S: Mini Str Y o F co MMunit Y De Velo PMent (continued) The h ouse in c ommittee of Supply; k. Whittred in the chair. The committee met at 2:27 p.m. on Vote 22(S): ministry operations, $186,000,000 (continued). Hon. K. Krueger: We will continue the opportunity for opposition members to deal with this portion of the supplemental estimates. in case any members are present who were not here when i introduced my officials, Dale Wall, the deputy minister, is on my right.

Shauna brouwer, the associate deputy minister, is on my left. C. Wyse: once more, i would like to follow up with some questions of the minister here. in particular, i wish to start off with a bit of a

preamble on the importance of running out this $186 million for supplementary estimates at this period of time. it is immediately just before an elec- tion. it is important that we establish that context. [1430] on Thursday of last week the minister was kind enough, brave enough to point out that there would be no accommodations, that everyone in the h ouse, members on both sides, would be provided with an opportunity to be available for the announcements.

When i look here at the budget, i see that there is a sum of money being provided for internet connectivity for rural communities. i'd ask of the minister how this particular item was arrived at. Hon. K. Krueger: Previously asked and answered. C. Wyse: i would appreciate the minister to once more put his answer on record. i wouldn't want to be misleading in any fashion. So i would ask that of the minister — how. if he's not willing to provide that aspect of it, then i would like to know what communities have been involved in the consultation process for arriving at this list. Hon. K.

Krueger: The critic should read the record. C. Wyse: i'm sure that the communities that are involved in this would be interested in having that infor- mation and having it be made available to them. So i would then ask of the minister: in actual fact, what com- munities are going to be receiving these funds? Hon. K. Krueger: a ll local governments. C. Wyse: a ll local governments. h ow do they apply for those funds, then? Hon. K. Krueger: Previously asked and answered. C.

Wyse: i think at this moment in time we have established here with the minister that the minister's degree of cooperation for the examination of these estimates has disappeared. That would be one way that would describe it. i do have colleagues in the h ouse that have got ques- tions they wish to ask of the minister with the estimates. They do want to obtain the information on behalf of their constituents. The minister is demonstrating some great reluctance to involve himself in the debate. it leaves me more than a little perplexed.

This is a minister that wanted to run things out. h e has a record, for example, as a minister — and this is according to a reporter, not according to myself — who is in a hurry to roll things out quickly, in a fashion that is beyond the scrutiny of the h ouse. So with that type of a record that is established, i am hoping that the approach to dealing with these estimates is going to change. With that, i am going to turn it over to one of my colleagues here who has some questions of the minister, and hopefully, he will provide answers. M.

Karagianis: a t the risk of being repetitive, i hope the minister will bear with me. i have some questions directly about several of my communities and wonder if the minister could perhaps let me know if any of the following communities are going to be receiving funds and under what programs: e squimalt, View r oyal and the city of c olwood. [1435] Hon. K. Krueger: We spent all day Thursday doing this and demonstrated to the opposition how the program works. We'll be rolling out details shortly, com- munity by community. M.

Karagianis: i do know that the minister did in fact grant other members of this h ouse answers when they asked about specific communities. i did listen in on Thursday afternoon and heard a response, which had very specific and distinct dollar amounts that were disclosed to those members. So i'm a bit confused as to why i've been denied that. in particular, i'm concerned about communities like e squimalt. The a rchie browning recreation centre there is an aging building and one of the very few sources of hockey ice and rink time here in the south island.

So it's very important for me to know whether or not this is an

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, February 23, 2009 13891 opportunity that the community might be getting some dollars towards. i am also quite interested in what programs are allocating what money where here on the south island. i do believe it's a fair question, and i would again ask the minister, with the greatest of courtesy, if i could be extended the same information that my colleagues were on Thursday. Hon. K. Krueger: Six hours of debate on Thursday, and now we will be providing mayors and councils with letters over the next couple of weeks with the details. M.

Karagianis: Perhaps the minister could then answer for me something that's a bit more of a process question. The programs that the minister has been discussing, which these funds are being allocated to, i think are fairly well known. When were these programs put in place, and were there fixed funds attached to those programs when they were first set in place by the government? Hon. K. Krueger: Previously asked and answered. M.

Karagianis: i did listen with great respect to the debate on Thursday, and i do not believe i heard an answer to the questions that i am asking here. i would like to have the minister please refresh my memory about when these programs were set in place, what kind of funds were allocated to them and how long they have been in place. h aving some familiarity with how government works, i know that when you put a program together like t rees for t omorrow or many of the other programs that the government has attached these dollars to, they are avail- able for communities to apply for. i know that there are deadlines.

The minister has talked about that here at great length on Thursday. i would like to know: when were these programs put in place? is this the first rollout of these programs, or is this perhaps a second or third rollout of program funding for some of these? Hon. K. Krueger: The member should read the record. M.

Karagianis: a gain, i would just have to say that on Thursday the minister was quite forthcoming to questions by other members of this h ouse about their particular communities — the amount of dollars that they could expect to see going into their communities. i'm asking what i think are fairly civil questions. i don't understand why the minister is unable to answer these for me. in particular, i'd like to know if these programs have been in place and this is the third or fourth rollout — perhaps even only the second rollout. i'd like to know: were these programs fully subscribed to the first time that they were put in place, unless this is the first time?

Were they fully subscribed? i think it's a reasonable question to ask. i don't understand why i would not be able to get an answer to any of my questions. Hon. K. Krueger: c ommunities know the details. in this h ouse these questions have been asked and answered. M.

Karagianis: i guess we're apparently not going to be entitled to get much information out of the minister today, which i consider to be in fact a complete contra - vention of what the estimates process is about. i would like to just register my deep concerns that the minister is not allowing the same courtesy to other members of this h ouse that he did on Thursday. [1440] i would like to, then, ask a question about the com - munity safety aspect of this particular supplementary estimate and ask the minister: exactly what does that cover?

What kind of community safety is included under this description of these supplementary estimates today? Hon. K. Krueger: l ocal autonomy. M. Karagianis: So community safety. in particular, i am interested to know how far this community safety description extends. What exactly does it apply to? a utonomy means virtually nothing in the context of my questions here. if it's community safety, does this cover fire services? Does it cover some aspects of policing? Does it cover some kind of emergency equipment or emergency preparedness in communities?

What exactly is covered under this community safety description, and how would the dollars that the minister is seeking be applied to that? Hon. K. Krueger: a sked and answered on Thursday. M. Karagianis: i will go back and read the Hansard, although obviously, it's going to give me no answer whatsoever for my community in particular. i do know that the question was repeatedly asked about where these funds would go to.

We know that the minis- ter had a list he was reading from that had very specific dollar amounts that he disclosed to other members of the opposition when they asked that question. i'm uncertain as to why i've been treated differently here. i would like to know what kind of certainty there is within these estimates for communities about what it is they might expect. it would seem to me that the minister won't really clarify what the community safety aspect of this fund would be for and certainly won't talk about whether or not these funds have been fully subscribed in the past and could be right now.

british c olumbia Debates13892 Monday, February 23, 2009 We certainly know that the government is looking for money right now that will be rolled out in a very critical time here pre-election. i expect that the fact we can't get any answers to this is that the communities that will get the most largesse are probably not those that are strong supporters of members of this side of the h ouse. i'm very disturbed that i got so few answers from this minister. c ertainly, i will be reading the Hansard to see exactly why i was treated in a different manner than other members of this h ouse. Hon. K.

Krueger: e xcellent certainty. C. Wyse: i would ask for confirmation that all of the lists that the minister was referring to will be provided to this side of the h ouse. i ask the minister when we will receive that list. Hon. K. Krueger: a sked and answered. C. Wyse: My recollection is that the questions that were asked of the minister were over a series of different lists which the minister was reading from.

That is my recollection. i apologize to the h ouse if my recollection, in actual fact, is in error. i'm asking of the minister that he affirm to this h ouse that the same information he has talked about, which is going to be going out in letters to the mayors and coun- cils and regional districts that he referred to today, will likewise be provided to this side of the h ouse, and when will it be provided to this side of the h ouse? Hon. K. Krueger: a sked and answered. [1445] G.

Coons: a gain, our job here is to scrutinize the spending on behalf of our constituents and the govern - ment, and that's what we're elected to do. i believe the minister is asking for $186 million in supplementary estimates, and we believe it should have been allocated previously and brought to the forefront. it seems like the answers coming from the minister are: "it's before the courts." i'm not too sure what he has to hide. i did go through Hansard. i just wanted to clarify a couple of things with the minister, when i start looking at some of the programs in the discussion from last Thursday.

The t owns for t omorrow, which is for communities 15,000 and less. There's a limit of $400,000 on it, and there've been a hundred applications put out there, worth about $37 million. r ight now there's $30 million that's available in this time frame. The next approval time is March 16. if i'm incorrect, you can interrupt me. The t rees for t omorrow is a four-year program with $13 million, and there are 128 applications. it's going to be announced in the next three or four months. There will be another deadline March 31, and that is the $3 million we're talking about.

The carbon tax rebate, which is $3 million. i'm just wondering: how many applications were there put for - ward for the carbon tax rebates in the communities? Hon. K. Krueger: They're still coming in. G. Coons: i didn't think i read that in Hansard, so thank you, Minister. h ow is it going to be distributed? is there a formula? is there a per capita? h ow many communities are in the program that have committed to being carbon-neutral, and how is it going to be distributed? if the minister answered that, i missed that previously. Hon. K. Krueger: a sked and answered. G.

Coons: i guess going through five or six hours of debate, it's sort of hard to get every answer that you're looking for. The other fund that the minister was referring to was the l ocalMotion infrastructure fund. There's the $151 million. is this part of that, or is that a separate program? Hon. K. Krueger: a nswered Thursday. G. Coons: o kay. in this l ocalMotion infrastructure it sounds like there are a hundred applications out there.

There's $10 million left, and there's $26 million that has been put in for applications. i guess i'll have to go back and try to read that, because i'm not too sure if this is part of the $151 million or separate.

So i guess i'll have to sort that one out myself, since we aren't getting the answers from the minister. n ow, i'm just wondering about first nations commun- ities — if any first nations communities are going to be involved, as far as getting any part of the $186 million for strategic investments in communities to encourage economic growth and create jobs to offset the effects of the current economic uncertainty and provide local governments with greater flexibility to address immedi- ate needs, including community safety. is any of this funding going to any first nations communities at all throughout the province?

Hon. K. Krueger: Y es. t rees for t omorrow applications. G. Coons: i'm sorry. i missed that. c ould the minister please repeat that? Hon. K. Krueger: Y es. t rees for t omorrow applications. G. Coons: So as far as any of the other amounts, first nations communities, even though they may be part of the treaty…. u nder the n isga'a treaty, the four

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, February 23, 2009 13893 communities — n ew a iyansh, Greenville, c anyon city and k incolith — have municipal status. So would they be getting anything as far as their municipal status, as far as treaty? Hon. K. Krueger: l ocal governments. G. Coons: u nder the n isga'a treaty, the four com - munities in the n ass do have municipality status and therefore are eligible for government grants. So will they be considered part of this process? [1450] Hon. K. Krueger: Funded separately. G.

Coons: is that funded separately under other programs or under just the program the minister mentioned? Hon. K. Krueger: n ot these supplemental estimates. G.

Coons: it was clear last Thursday that the minister was pretty excited about making announcements and letting people know how much money was coming to the communities, whether it was Duncan or a lert bay or t ahsis. h e's clearly established that not everybody's going to be invited to the ribbon cutting or the ceremonies. t axpayers and the opposition members are always a bit suspicious, especially after the federal infrastructure announcements of last week, where the minister, in the h ouse, said: "The federal government has expressed a willingness to participate in infrastructure projects with us.

We announced the other day funding for 41 of those projects, including a specific one." We know that the specific one was $14.2 million — 13 percent of the $110 million — going into the minister's riding. i was hoping, as a couple of my colleagues have mentioned, that…. o n Thursday the minister was reading from a list of projects — or amounts of money — going to communities from the small communities grant and the traffic fine revenue-sharing.

The minister, on that side of the h ouse, with those members on that side of the h ouse, has access to this piece of paper with amounts coming to our communities throughout the province. a gain, i would reiterate: would the minister, in fair - ness and integrity and lack of secrecy, share those papers that indicate how much is coming to Prince r upert, to Port c lements, to the regional district? Would he share that, please. Hon. K. Krueger: Y es, soon. G. Coons: i just have one last comment here about shovel-ready projects. When the federal budget came down, i was quite impressed.

When i went to the c anadian municipality website and found out all of the b.c. municipalities and regions that put forth their shovel-ready projects, i noticed that Prince r upert had put forward three: one with their landfill development, one with their sewer project, and one with a paving pro- gram. These are shovel-ready projects. Would the minister let Prince r upert know if any of their shovel-ready projects will be getting money in the upcoming weeks? Hon. K. Krueger: Very soon. B.

Simpson: This, quite frankly, is troubling. a s a former Premier indicated — Mr. bennett: "n ot a dime without debate." We have a minister here who last week couldn't stop himself from talking with enthusiasm about everything.

So it begs the question: has the minister been muzzled by the Premier's office? is he not allowed to answer ques- tions now that are meaningful and appropriate questions, given that this is a financial bill that's open for debate? it is, as my colleague indicated, contemptuous of the parliamentary process for the minister to stand up and say one- or two-word, incomplete sentences in response to legitimate questions. t o the minister. Just for clarification, and you can answer this yes or no: does the minister have respon - sibility for the community development trust? Hon. K.

Krueger: n ot these supplemental estimates. The Chair: Member. Just remember, Members, that the questions must be relevant to this supplementary estimate. [1455] B. Simpson: c orrect, Madam Speaker. it's also a point of clarification on the lift, as to where the lift is going, because sometimes the words used in the supplementals don't necessarily match the program funding areas that the minister has, because the program name changes.

What i'm trying to determine — given that this vote states: "…strategic investments in communities to encourage economic growth and create jobs to help offset the effects of the current economic uncertainty…" — is that that is part of the mandate of the community development trust. a ll i want to find out is if the minis - ter is responsible for the community development trust. Hon. K. Krueger: n ot relevant. Point of Order B. Simpson: Point of order, Madam c hair. it's a very simple question. Does the minister have responsibility for this trust or not? Madam c hair, i raised a point of order. i'd like to have….

british c olumbia Debates13894 Monday, February 23, 2009 The Chair: The minister has said it is not relevant, and we would take his word in this h ouse. interjection. The Chair: Member. interjection. The Chair: Member, would you sit down, please. Thank you. Members, this is committee stage, c ommittee of Supply. l et's get on with that, please. interjection. The Chair: Member. Debate Continued B. Simpson: This is taxpayers' money being lifted in this year, with a government that is facing an election and wants to shovel whatever little money they can get out the door.

We're trying to figure out what that shovel looks like and where this money is going, which i think is legitimate for us to ask and for the minister to answer. With respect, then, to one of the line items in here…. i guess i can't ask if he's responsible for mountain pine beetle. i can't ask if any of this money is going into com- munity development trusts, which this minister knows everybody wants provincial money to go into, or moun- tain pine beetle. l et's try t rees for t omorrow. is any of this money going through the Ministry of Forests? Hon. K. Krueger: Six hours Thursday. interjections.

The Chair: Member. Members. interjection. The Chair: Member. order, Member. Member. B. Simpson: i asked an explicit, legitimate, on-subject question, and i did not get an answer. i got a "six hours on Thursday." Well, we can't find anywhere in Hansard where this question was asked or answered. a gain, my question to this minister, which is legitim - ate…. There's a line item here for t rees for t omorrow of $2 million this year and a project going forward. My question is: will any of this money find its way through the Ministry of Forests? Hon. K. Krueger: The answer is no. B. Simpson: Second question.

With this program, will there be an expectation of cost-sharing by any of the other participants? Hon. K. Krueger: With trees, it's 50 percent. B. Simpson: h ere we have cash-strapped muni - cipalities, school districts, hospitals that, in order to participate in this feel-good project of the Premier's, are going to have to now cough up 50 percent. [1500] Why doesn't the government, if they're going to go down this path, provide these trees for free for these entities, institutions and communities to go ahead and plant the trees? if the Premier is that keen on this project, why is it cost-shared? Hon. K.

Krueger: h on. c hair, 112 applications. B. Simpson: a re there any targeted funds for com - munities, schools, hospitals, etc., that have been devastated by the mountain pine beetle and need those trees to replace the trees that have been cut down or that they have lost? Hon. K. Krueger: a sked and answered. B. Simpson: With respect to the first nations — and the minister has answered this today, but it's an explana- tory answer i'm looking for — sharing this, will they also have to cost-share? Hon. K. Krueger: i don't believe so, but we'll give the member a written answer. B.

Simpson: When will i see that written answer? This government and these ministers have a propensity to promise that in this h ouse and never deliver outside. So can i have a date, please? Hon. K. Krueger: by end of day today. B. Simpson: i appreciate that, and i appreciate the minister's staff delivering on that. With respect to other participants in this program, is there scope for unincorporated communities? They don't have taxation abilities. They don't have abilities to get additional money. Will unincorporated commun - ities be able to access this without having to come up with the 50 percent cost-share?

Hon. K. Krueger: Y es, through regional districts. B. Simpson: With respect to the overall program here, as i understand it, this is a lift to this year's budget. Does the minister believe that this $2 million will actually be

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, February 23, 2009 13895 spent pre-end of fiscal this year — that there are enough programs in play, enough people can bring the 50 per - cent to the table to actually get the trees in the ground by March 31 of this year? Hon. K. Krueger: Y es. B. Simpson: i'd like to talk to some horticulturalists about that around where i live, where the ground is still frozen and where there are problems with actually plant- ing some of these trees. a re these all l ower Mainland ones that will have it in the ground by March 31? Hon. K. Krueger: a sked and answered. B.

Simpson: i am looking at the Hansard for that six-hour session in which the minister seems to have run out his enthusiasm for answering questions. i see nothing in here about the geographic location of any of these projects, so the minister did not answer this ques - tion. The question wasn't even asked, actually, if you say "asked and answered." Where, geographically, will this $2 million be spent? [1505] Hon. K. Krueger: Provincewide, but the money is being paid to communities, and they'll have it in their accounts. H.

Bains: i would like to ask a few questions specific to my community, the second-largest city in the prov - ince, the fastest-growing community in the province and the most diverse community, i would say, not only in british c olumbia but perhaps in c anada. There are some needs for our community, and i would like to ask some questions to the minister. First of all, what are the total grants that have been approved for the city of Surrey? Hon. K. Krueger: a sked and answered. We've given examples. Details will roll out over the next couple of weeks. H.

Bains: c an the minister tell us: what is the total amount that has been approved for city of Surrey? Hon. K. Krueger: a sked and answered. B. Ralston: i rise on a point of order. i'm looking through the transcript of the proceedings on Thursday. i'm unable to find where that question was posed, and i'm unable to find any spot where it was answered. So i think, in my judgment, the minister is misleading the house. Hon. K.

Krueger: That's a serious charge, hon. c hair. i ask the member to withdraw it. i have answered in this h ouse today that we have given a number of specific answers on Thursday, and i have no intention of work - ing through the entire list of cities today. So that question has been asked and answered — a general answer, but answered. B. Ralston: Well, the response…. i think it's drawn from a merican television perhaps — asked and answered. n onetheless, that's the phrase the minister seems to want to use here.

The question that the member asked was a very specific one about the city of Surrey and the budget for the city of Surrey. i've looked through the Hansard of the day's proceedings on Thursday. i can't see that ques - tion anywhere there, and i don't see an answer to it. When the minister says he's answered it, now he's qualifying…. h e's shading his response now. h e says he's answered it in a general sense, but his response was to a specific question. it wasn't asked, and it wasn't answered on Thursday. it wasn't asked, and it wasn't answered this morning. i'd invite the c hair to make a ruling.

The minister is misleading the h ouse. The Chair: Members, the c hair does not make a ruling on that in committee. The minister has said that he's not prepared to comment on individual grants, and i think we move on from there. H. Bains: a s i said in my opening remarks, we are talking about the second-largest city in the province, soon to be the largest in the province. We are talking about a city that is the fastest-growing…. The Chair: e xcuse me, Member. Hon. T. Christensen: Point of order.

The member opposite suggested that the minister had misled the h ouse. h e was asked to withdraw that comment — and i haven't heard that he's done that yet — before we proceeded. [1510] The Chair: The c hair would only intervene if he had said "deliberately misled the h ouse." c ontinue, Member. H. Bains: i thought, you know, we were in this…. When i got elected, i thought that we would go into this h ouse, that we would have debates on an issue that is important to the cities and the communities that we represent.

We would get some answers from the people in authority, the minister, that we can take back to our communities and provide those answers and the infor - mation that they deserve. These are the taxpayers who

british c olumbia Debates13896 Monday, February 23, 2009 are paying the minister's salary, my salary and everyone else's salary. i think it's incumbent upon all of us to be respon - sible to those taxpayers who are actually upholding and expecting that we would respect them and that we will respect the traditions of this h ouse. Part of that tradition is to answer some questions, when it comes to allocating funds to the communities.

So my question, again, is not in general terms. it's specifically asking about Surrey. h ow much in total grants has been approved for the city of Surrey? i looked at and read Hansard last week. Questions were asked by my colleague for Delta n orth about what is the largest grant that has been granted. The minister answered: "it's in Vancouver — $15 million." i'm asking about Surrey, the second-largest city. c an the minister tell this h ouse — he was able to give the numbers for Vancouver — what the numbers are for the city of Surrey? Hon. K.

Krueger: That's been answered. i've given all the detail that is going to be forthcoming today. H. Bains: l ike i said, i read Hansard. That question about Surrey — the total grant question — has never been asked in this h ouse during these estimates and never been answered. So i'm asking one more time. What is the total grant for the city of Surrey that has been approved? Hon. K. Krueger: a sked and answered. interjections. The Chair: Members. Members, i would like, please, to point out that this is what the rule book calls becoming tedious, and perhaps we can move on to new lines of questioning. H.

Bains: What i gather from here is that the minister has refused to answer that question. The minister said he has answered that question. This question has never been asked. Go through the Hansard. i hope if the minister is insisting that that question was asked and that he answered that question…. Will the minister then correct himself in the next sitting and come back and tell us where the question was asked? When did he answer that question? a nd if that wasn't asked and wasn't answered, will he come back and apologize? Hon. K. Krueger: The member has my answer. interjection.

The Chair: Member. order, Member. interjection. The Chair: order, Member. interjection. The Chair: Sit down, Member. if the member for n elson-creston does not show respect for the c hair, i will have to ask him to leave the chamber. c ontinue, Member. H. Bains: i'd just like to remind the member that with close to 400,000 population in the city of Surrey, we are looking at…. That represents something like 13 percent of the total population of the province. My question is, so that i can take it back…. a nd many of them are listening, and they're watching the minister. They're waiting for his answers.

They have made some applications. Perhaps the minister can tell us how many total appli- cations the city of Surrey has actually made? [1515] Hon. K. Krueger: n o further detail today. c ommunities are getting letters shortly. H. Bains: So the minister expects us to vote for these estimates without giving us any answers — no details? This minister is saying that the details are coming? What are we doing here? What's he doing here in this h ouse? Y our job is to answer some questions. interjection. The Chair: Member. interjections. The Chair: order, Members. order. c ontinue, Member. H.

Bains: if i feel frustrated, it is because i am. it is because of the inaction. a nd unanswered by this minis- ter — questions that are legitimate questions. These are not fictitious. They are not something that we are pulling out of the air. These are the questions that our taxpayers — our constituents, actually — are expecting answers to from this minister. The minister is refusing to answer those questions. i think that is an insult to this h ouse. it's an insult to the taxpayers.

More importantly, it is insulting to the taxpayers who, like i said, are paying the minister's wages. h e chose to sit there and stand up and not answer any questions and thinks that he deserves those wages. Perhaps he should not take pay for today for not doing his job.

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, February 23, 2009 13897 l et me ask another way, if there's any willingness from the minister to answer this question. There are a number of applications made, and the minister refused to answer how many applications are made. c an the minister advise this h ouse, and perhaps more importantly advise the taxpayers, how many of those applications exactly have been denied? Hon. K. Krueger: n o denials. H. Bains: c an i ask the minister, then, what percent - age of the total value has been approved? Hon. K. Krueger: The member should read Thursday's record. H.

Bains: a gain, about Surrey, that question wasn't asked. This minister continues — and i will say con - tinues — to choose not to be upfront and come clean with the answers that taxpayers deserve. My question was: based on the total number of applications made by the city of Surrey — i'm not talk - ing about a general question — what percentage of the total value of those applications has been approved, in dollars? Hon. K. Krueger: The member says he's not talking about general questions. i talked about specific answers Thursday and not today. interjection. The Chair: Member. H.

Bains: o bviously, by the admittance by this min - ister with the last answer, he has been ordered not to answer in this h ouse by, perhaps, his boss, perhaps by the Premier. n ow, can the minister tell us whether that is the situation, whether he has been told not to answer questions here today but only on Thursday? because his fingers have been rapped because he answered and spoke too much on Thursday? Perhaps that's the situa - tion here. Maybe let me ask you: what was the total value of those applications? i mean, that's the answer at least — total value of those applications.

When the city put the appli- cations in and each of the applications that they have has a value of the project that they are asking funding for. So there's a total number that they are asking from the minister that should be going to the city of Surrey. c an the minister tell us what is the total value and how much of that has been approved so that we can figure out how much has been denied? [1520] Hon. K. Krueger: The member should read the record. [h. b loy in the chair.] C. Evans: it seems to me that what's going on here is very complicated for the folks at home to understand.

So my question to the minister will be to attempt to explain what i think is going on and then ask the minister if it's correct. That goes for you folks up there too. i'm sure it's kind of weird. Some of us are behaving in an unusual manner because we're kind of grumpy, and you wonder what's going on, so i'm going to try and explain it. The Chair: Member. Member. C. Evans: Y eah? The Chair: Please address the c hair — all direction to the c hair. C. Evans: That's right. That's right. i'm not allowed to talk to you except through this lovely gentleman here.

Folks, here's what i think is going on. a bout a week or so ago the government brought in a budget, and the Minister of Finance read it out, and it sounded benign. The whole world is collapsing economically, but the budget said: "o h, it's going to be okay. h ardly any cuts anywhere. a ll the ministries will be intact, and we'll just have a little deficit — half a billion dollars — and things are pretty good." i left that budget speech feeling like british c olumbia is in pretty good shape. i'm speaking to the estimates of the hon. minister.

Then over the next — what? — 24, 36 hours, people started reading the fine print, and it started looking like there were massive cuts to the arts and to culture and to agriculture and to the things that some of us care about, but they were put off until year 2 or year 3. it started looking like the budget that we saw on budget day was kind of a sham. because i believe in this process, i am speaking to the estimates of the hon. minister. i am saying what i think is going on, and then i will say: "i s that true, Minister?" That's the nature of my question, and you'll remember, i get 20 minutes to say what i think is going on.

Speaking to the estimates of the hon. minister, 36 hours later when we read the fine print, it appeared as if the budget was nonsense, and that is offensive to me, because that would assume this process is nonsense. but then something even weirder than that happened.

The government came in and said: "o h, by the way, even though there's only a half-billion-dollar deficit and even though everything's going to be okay, we need a couple of hundred million dollars today to get it through the next 60 days so we can have an election." This minister's estimates are part of that — what? — $180 million, $200 million extra that was brought in here after we were told that everything was okay, and 36 hours later we found out the budget was bogus. So the

british c olumbia Debates13898 Monday, February 23, 2009 hon. members are trying to find out what you're going to do with 180 million bucks in the next 60 days, while we think you're going to go around and pass it out town to town to try and elect a bunch of members who won't tell the truth in the budget. n ow, hon. c hair…. The Chair: Member, Member. C. Evans: i withdraw the statement that they won't tell the truth, and i substitute: "have chosen not to see it my way." The Chair: Member, that's fine. Thank you. i would like you to direct your comments to the supplementary estimates. C.

Evans: The estimates of this…. The Chair: The supplementary…. C. Evans: Got it — absolutely. Y es. a nything else you'd like to say, sir? So this minister is the minister who's in charge of largesse. This is the minister who gives out money to municipalities — your money, folks at home. This is the minister who passes it out in the election year 60 days before they go to the polls, and these members are trying to find out where it's going. More than that, because it's a democracy, they're trying to find out if it's going fairly.

They're trying to find out if what the folks in Surrey asked for is anything like what they're going to get. These are fair questions. e ven if the hon. minister is proud of what he did, in a democracy it's fair to get to ask and answer the questions before they pay their taxes. There have been revolutions fought on the notion that the people have the right to ask the question and get the answer before they pay their taxes.

They chucked a bunch of tea overboard one time. [1525] The Premier of the province of british c olumbia, the Social credit antecedent to the hon. minister there, said: "n ot a dime without estimates." a nd then what's hap - pening here…. i've worked here for a long time. i've worked here so long i'm bald on top, and i'm pretty old. a nd i don't remember ministers sitting in their chair and saying: "i told you yesterday." Sixty days — 60 days before an election. i think, because the minister is a decent and fine man, he came in here last week and did his job.

Members got up and asked questions, and he answered honestly, as best he could. Staff sat next to him, helped him with the answers, and he got up, and he gave the answer. a nd somebody, somewhere, who doesn't work here, who isn't actually elected, who gets paid money to do strat - egy, to manipulate these people and you and the process, hon. c hair, that you represent told him to go in there and shut this place…. The Chair: Member. Member. C. Evans: What? The Chair: i would like you…. C. Evans: Sir. What, sir? The Chair: Please show respect for the c hair. C. Evans: Y es, sir. The Chair: i am the c hair — okay?

C. Evans: Got it. The Chair: n ow, you made a statement i would like you to withdraw. C. Evans: a ny one. What did i say? i said somebody told the minister. is that what you didn't like? The Chair: Y es. C. Evans: o kay. h on. c hair, you're right. i suspect, because i believe the minister to be an honourable gentleman, that someone might have told…. The Chair: Withdraw the statement. interjection. C. Evans: o kay. Y ou're absolutely…. i withdraw. i'm just not sure what i'm withdrawing, hon. Member. interjections. The Chair: Members. a ll Members. Member for n elson-creston, please take your seat. Minister.

Minister. o kay, i would like for every member of this h ouse to show respect for the chamber that we're in. i would like all members to respect the person who has the floor so that he can do it. i would like to remind members that it's the tone, as well, that shows respect for this h ouse in the presentation and that we have to respect each other if we're going to move ahead. So i'm going to ask the member for n elson-creston to continue. interjections.

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, February 23, 2009 13899 C. Evans: h ang on, you guys. i totally agree with what the c hair says. i love this place. i would like to point out, hon. c hair, that i sit gently, quietly in my chair 99 percent of the time.

This little moment is generated by something i'm not used to, which is, or appears to be, a minister refusing to tell the member that represents the people of Surrey what they asked for and what they're going to get. h on. c hair, i respect the process. it feels to me like a hon. minister holding a portfolio and refusing to answer the questions about it before the people pay their taxes…. it feels to me like that's a kind of disrespect. is that acceptable to say? it certainly made me grumpy. i would like to ask the c hair if i'm allowed to ask the minister whether his choice of answers today is his own or whether he was instructed to answer in this way. is that a legitimate question?

The Chair: i want you to direct all your questions to the supplementary estimate to the minister. C. Evans: Dealing solely with the supplementary estimates, because i believe the minister to be an hon - ourable gentleman: could the minister tell me whether his answers related to the supplementary estimates given briefly or not at all today are his own decision or whether he was instructed to answer in that fashion? Hon. K. Krueger: r epetitive questioning. [interruption.] The Chair: Wait. Sergeant-at-a rms, please remove that person. interjections. The Chair: Members.

Members. order. order, Members. n elson-creston, please take your seat. The h ouse will recess for five minutes. The committee recessed from 3:30 p.m. to 3:44 p.m. [h. b loy in the chair.] C.

Evans: it's my understanding that i have 36 seconds left on my last question, and i assure you that i will be finished. i want to say that contrary to any imagination that i demean this h ouse, it's my very respect for this process, my belief in estimates, that makes me think it has to be run in a fair manner. h on. c hair, i think british c olumbian politicians don't steal and civil servants don't steal, unlike in other countries, because of estimates, because of this process.

Sometimes it's onerous. i was the Minister of h ealth once upon a time, and the questions went till two days, three days a week, but the onerousness guarantees the integrity. [1545] That's where honesty comes from. That's the way that the opposition fulfils its role, and that is the role of the hon. minister. That's why they call him "the honourable." h on. c hair, i will take my seat because i think i'm a little too grumpy to participate in a healthy way. i would ask you and the government to participate in the way that we designed this h ouse, and then i guarantee you i won't lose my temper. H.

Bains: n ow that we have had a short break — this h ouse has — and we all had some time to reflect back to our actions in this h ouse for the past couple of hours, hopefully we will be getting some constructive debate going again and getting some information and answers for the taxpayers that sent us here. The Chair: Member, if i could remind you to direct all your questions to the supplementary estimates that are taking place right now. H.

Bains: of course, hon. c hair. a nd we would have some questions on behalf of the communities that we represent, and we would get some answers. h aving said that, i will try to get some of the information and some of the answers that i asked to the question i posed earlier on. on behalf of 450,000 citizens of Surrey, i ask this min- ister one more time. h ow many total applications have been received by the minister under these estimates? Hon. K. Krueger: i'm going to try and find some middle ground between not repeating things that i went over a lot on Thursday, yet trying to assist the members opposite.

When i mentioned earlier that these questions had been answered specifically last Thursday, i had hoped that by giving some examples, it would be clear to the opposition the details of the specific programs. t owns for t omorrow is not a program that a city the size of Surrey would have any applications in for, and the reasons are clearly outlined in Thursday's Hansard. a carbon tax rebate is something that all the commun - ities, we expect, will be applying for.

They'll sign on to the climate action plan, and they'll get their rebate for their direct expenses on carbon tax through fuels that those cities applied for. Those are all in process. i men - tioned that last week. l ocalMotion is a program that communities of any size can apply for. We have one application from Surrey. t rees for t omorrow is a program that any community can apply for. We have one application in from Surrey

british c olumbia Debates13900 Monday, February 23, 2009 for t rees for t omorrow. We wouldn't expect more than one, necessarily, from any…. We would only be able to provide one under l ocalMotion — which is, as one of the members reiterated today, oversubscribed. We can't yet give dollar figures for what the awards will be to Surrey under t rees for t omorrow or l ocalMotion, because those processes are still under - way. i can tell the member, as i did a number of his colleagues, the amount of money that will be forthcom - ing to the community from traffic fine revenue-sharing, and it is $6,392,552. H.

Bains: in order to speed things along, maybe i'll ask some specific questions about the total dollar amount. l ast week Delta knew exactly how much they will be getting in total, and the Vancouver figure was given, something like $15 million. c an the minister tell us: what is the total amount that Surrey will be getting? [1550] Hon. K. Krueger: This column that i just gave the member the answer from is the same column those answers came from. n one of those answers included spe- cifics about towns for tomorrow or trees for tomorrow.

Some of the questions that the member was asking about earlier — major intersection, major road improve - ments, those sorts of things…. Well, at least i think the member was asking about specific roads. Those would be the building c anada infrastructure fund, which is not a subject of these supplemental estimates. H. Bains: i don't know what is so difficult. The answer for Vancouver was given last week — $15 million. The answer for Delta was given — $1.9 million. Why is the city of Surrey not given the answer that the other cities have already got?

My question, one more time: what is the total amount that has been approved for the city of Surrey? Hon. K. Krueger: The member clearly didn't under - stand my answer. The answer given to Vancouver, which was $15,723,893, is traffic fine revenue-sharing money, and so is the answer that i just gave the member about Surrey. it's apples to apples. it's the very same thing. These large cities don't qualify for small community grants, which are included in this supplemental esti - mate, and i've already talked about the other programs.

The Vancouver and Surrey portions are different, and i explained on Thursday how they're arrived at. i put the details of that on the record for the member. J. Horgan: i will, for the minister's benefit, be continu- ing on in the vein of my other colleagues here. i'm seeking specifically any applications that have been approved in the city of l angford, the district of Metchosin, the dis - trict of Sooke and the district of h ighlands. Hon. K. Krueger: h ighlands — the small community grant that will be received is $458,973. l angford — its traffic fine revenue-sharing is $267,185.

Metchosin — the small community grant is $655,876. Sooke has a small community grant and traffic fine revenue-sharing totalling $579,174. J. Horgan: i thank the minister for those details. i'm wondering, though, as others have asked, if there is an inventory of applications for the various programs — t owns for t omorrow, l ocalMotion, t rees for t omorrow. is the minister able to break down, by those four com - munities, those initiatives that are covered by this vote? [1555] Hon. K.

Krueger: My officials are working through the tables. i'll remind the h ouse that last week i gave the numbers of how many applications are before us for the individual programs — t owns for t omorrow, l ocalMotion and so on. it's going to take a lot of the h ouse's time to work through those one at a time, but we can. one of my officials is checking for t owns for t omorrow details for the member, and the other for l ocalMotion details. in the meantime, i had responded to the critic on the question of t rees for t omorrow — i think it was the critic — and said that we'd get the answer back in writ - ing by tonight. i've got the answer for him now, so i'll just put it on the record while we're waiting.

The answer is yes, first nations who've made applications under the t rees for t omorrow program will be contributing 50 percent of the cost, just as other communities. J. Horgan: i thank the minister and his staff for a commitment to get back, perhaps this week, with the details by those communities by program. That would be outstanding if he could do that. i just have a last question, and it has to do with the capital regional district.

Within the capital regional district my electoral area representative is one person representing disparate communities from e ast Sooke to Port r enfrew. i'm wondering if the minister could inform me, with the benefit of his staff, how the electoral areas fare in these processes. Do they have to go through the capital regional district? is the electoral area rep able to initiate any of these grant applications on his own? What's the process? Were any successful applications received or granted? Hon. K. Krueger: e lectoral areas can make applica - tion through their regional districts.

There is one from the member's area, and that's Port r enfrew. it has to do with fire protection. i understood the member to say that he'd be content with an e-mail or a letter about the other question he asked.

british c olumbia DebatesMonday, February 23, 2009 13901 G.

Gentner: Just a few quick questions, and we'll wrap up, i presume. i have to begin by suggesting that perhaps even the h ouse l eader on the opposite side knows very well that during the n isga'a debate…. i think we were intensely involved in a debate that lasted for almost six months, night and day. i really wonder how taxing it was back then for the government of the day and the minis - ters responsible to take on a siege or a huge amount of questions hurled their way. i just want to go back quickly. i'm not here to repeat any questions, and i appreciate and thank the minister for his due diligence and answers last week relative to, i believe, the $1.92 million that Delta is going to receive.

The question i had asked was on the shovel-ready community projects. Municipalities thought that they had bent the ear of the government opposite successfully to achieve all that. i took the liberty today to talk to h er Worship Mayor Jackson on where that $1.92 million was to go, and she really didn't have an idea of what it was going to, where it was going to go. My question to her was: "Where did you think it was going to go, and where do you think the government expects it to go?" The minister has been talking about public safety and, for example, money goin

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0223pm-08
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0223pm 08
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ce25cccdaab5e61596c621cbcf8a80dada03190f

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