LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 12 April, 1982 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR. CHAI RMAN, Har ry M. Har ap iak (The Pas): I call the Committee to order. We're on Highways and Transportation, on 9.(a)

(1) Salaries -t he Member for Vir den. MR. HARRY GRAHAM (Virden): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't know if I'm going to talk about 9. (a)(1 ), I think we've been following a pretty general thing on this and I have a few qu estions I'd like to ask the Min ister regarding the operation of the Highw ay Traffic Board. If it's agreeable to proceed on MR. CHAI RMAN: Mr. Min ister. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, perhaps before we do that, I would like to go back to answer a question that was put to me by the Memb er for Pembina; namely, the other increases in costs under Other Expendi­ tures.

I have a breakdown of those, it involves honora­ riums for four doctors, I think it's doctors, and one lay person of $30,000, this is a Medic al Review Commit­ tee; 2,000 copie s of The Highw ay Traffic Act for law enforcement agencies, $9,000; computer processing increase of $8, 900; and purchase of 12 cash registers, which should bri ng us a lot of money sinc e the cash registers are $4 4,000.00. That's in addition to the $1.165 million increase in the new cost-shari ng for­ mula. That explains the totality in the increase in that Item. MR.

CHAI RM AN: The Memb er for Vir den, you were on the speaker's list fi rst but would you permit the Memb er for Pembina to go fi rst. MR. GRAHAM: The honourable member can go fi rst. MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for Pembina. MR. DONALD ORCHARD (Pembina): Those honor­ arium s are for all five people, the five doctors plus the lay person? MR. USKIW: Yes. MR. ORCHARD: Of 30,000 each? MR. USKIW: No, 30,000 in total. MR. ORC HARD: Oh, in total. Okay. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to talk for a little while about the Hig hway Traffic Board and the role of the Highw ay Traffic Board. 1352 MR. USKIW: Jus t on a point of order, Mr. Chairman. Should we not pass those items up to that point and then get into that section? MR. GRAHAM: If you want to. MR. ORCHARD: I've got some qu esti ons on some of them. MR. USKIW: Oh, because we're going back and forth all over the place. MR. GRAHAM: We have had a general free wheeling. MR. USKIW: Okay, all right. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The High­ way Traffic Board, as I understand it, has a fair ly basic role to play in the Province of Manitoba and one of its functions is to protect for the public use the public hig hways of the province, and to ensure that those highw ays are kept relatively free and open for the public to use. There has been a role for the Hig hway Traffic Board to play and it has been fairly active in the applications of various ind ividuals in socie ty to claim or to request access to the public highw ay system.

I fully recognize the role of the Board in ensuring that the hig hways should be kept relatively free and unen­ cum bered and every time you have an access, it does create some problems to the free and easy movement of traffic, but there are certain places where it is rela­ tively imp ossible to prevent access to public high­ ways and that happens when you fall into a fairly populated area, say a town or a village where the highw ay goes through the town and the recogniz ed subdivisions of that area dic tate that it is relatively im possible to provide access roads with limited access, so it then comes around to the point whether you accept or reject an application for a person to get access to their property.

It has always been my understanding and I may be in error on this because I'm not a legal mind at all, but I have always been under the impress ion that when­ ever a person buys a piece of property he has reason­ able grounds to believe that he will have access to that property. I, earlier today, subm itted to the Min ister a copy of a letter I received just this past weekend from a person, who is admitted ly not a constituent of mi ne, but a person who has applied for a permit to access to his property, was denie d and appealed that deci sion and was denie d agai n.

I'm not pleading the particular case of that one ind ividual, but I want to bring it to the Minis ter's atten­ tion that this is probably a typical case of many, many cases that come before the Highway Traffic Board during the course of a year and I think that we should review in a very general dis cussion the role of the Highw ay Traffic Board as it im pacts on soci ety, because I don't believe anyone wants to see develop­ ment in this country denied because of regulations or a parti cular activity of one branch of government.

I thi nk the philosophy of government should be to assis t people to exis t in a socie ty where they have

Monday, 12 April, 1982 harmony and good fellowship and everyone can live and enjoy the benefits that society in its collective wisdom can provide. We do find from time to time that some of the regu­ lations, some of the activities of a particu lar branch or a particu lar group of people does in fact prevent that and I've become somewhat concerned when a partic­ ular board, which has the obligation to protect the hi ghway syste m, probably leans overboard and cer­ tai nly it protects the hi ghway syste m, but at what cost to socie ty.

I thi nk that we have to review very carefully the role of that Board and the im pact that it has when its arbitr ary decisions can prevent development, can prevent development, can antagonize a communi ty and can in fact detri mentally harm the best of inten­ tions of a particular ind ividual in socie ty. I would certainly at this time wis h to hear the vie ws of the Mi nist er in relations hi p to the activities of that particular Board and its impact on socie ty. MR. CHAI RMAN: Mr. Min ister. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, the Highway Traffic Board really is not the jurisdic ti on. or the authority rather, that has control and jurisd iction over the example that the Memb er for Vir den cites. I believe that particu lar hig hway is primarily, in fact solely, the reponsibil ity of the department under The Department Act. PR's are not generally ruled upon by the Traffic Board unless they're desig nated for the Board to have jurisdiction over them. PTH's and limited access hi ghways are the two areas where the Highway Traffic Board does adjudic ate upon.

However, I want to ind icate a great deal of sym­ pathy for what the Memb er for Vir den has just said. Over the years and dur ing the term of our government previously, I ran into many situations where excessive regulation, in my opinion, was restri cti ng unnecessar­ ily the freedo m of people and whethe r it's hig hways or whether it's The Planning Act or you can name a dozen agencies that, because of strict adherence to so-called rules and a great lack of dis creti on, have in my opinion unwisely dealt a very heavy blow on some parts of our socie ty.

In fact, I know of examples which should never be admitted to because they are so glar­ ing and such bad examples of mis use of power, so it's probably not worth even going into them, but I know what the member is alludin g to and the ideal would be to provide a safe high way system and a safe access routes into towns and villages and cities, while at the same time not unreasonably holding back the devel­ opment or people that have a genuine application and who are not trying to frustrate the system but are trying merely to facilitate a need that is necessary to themselves.

I don't believe, in the example that I have looked at, that it's really fair to the property owner to have been gi ven a clearance by whatever authority to sub divide property and then to be told later, well but you can't have access to the lots. If there's not to be that devel­ opment, that decision should be made somewhere else and I don't know if it should be made, but if it should be it shouldn't be made by the fact that the Highways Deparment now doesn't want to give access. It should be part of a larger planning process.

I know that I have appeared before the Board on behalf of people over the years and I found that where people were prepared to put up the deposit, which they must put up if they want a heari ng, and plead their case they often win, but many people get dis ­ couraged before they get to that point through the frustrations from dealing wi th bureaucracy and gov­ ernment and jus t drop the whole idea; conseq uently, you have a lack of equity, of justice, between people livi ng in the same community.

I know it's a high wir e act, so to speak, that one is involved in between the overall interest of the public and the individual rights that are in que sti on. It's not always that clear cut a decision or can it ever be clear cut, I'm not certain, but I would hope that one of the thi ngs that we can do - and this is some thi ng that I want to look at between Sessions wit h respect to this de partment - is to find ways and means of mini mizing red tape and undo restriction for the sake of, shall we say, convenience wherever that exis ts.

I know of a number of situa tions that are very simil ar to that right at the moment over which I have some concern myself, wherein the rule of thumb says "no" but all the logic on the other hand says it's an unreasonable "no." I just have to admit that the Member for Vir den probably has a case that warrants looking at but not from the point of view that one case, really from a general policy point of view, that will im pact on that exa mple and I intend to do that, Mr. Chairman. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, maybe I did n't state the thi ng qui te as clear.

It's by belief that in the particu lar case that I referred to the Minis ter that the person is in the process of sub dividing this lot and planning and desi gn. In order to get it, he has to have clearance from all of the various thi ngs and at thi s point Highways is objecting to the subdivision but that does not change the situa tion.

The whole pur­ pose is to develop exis ting lots wi thi n the communi ty which are prese ntly vacant and can be developed wit hout the village having to go to a huge separate su bdivision wi th all the added costs and the urban sprawl and the use of good agricultural land for non­ arigcultur al purposes. When there are holes wit hi n the exis ting framework, I thi nk they should be filled, and here is a case of one that is being proposed to be filled and it appears as though the Department of Hi ghways is unwilling to appr ove of the plan sub division. 1353 MR.

USKIW: I'm not totally famili ar wit h the traffic situation in the area but I know that there has to be a fairly clear access route or a route of egress out of any communi ty that is not terri bly encumbered, if it's at all going to be functional.

In that particular communi ty, I don't really know what the problem would be, but I would appreciate the member leaving that example wit h me, because I would like to take a look at it from a point of view of policy to see whether or not that is a case in point that may develop into a policy frame­ work that could give di rection to the department on how they assess and adjudi cate on those kinds of applications. I tend to sympathize with the applicant in that, just from my very qui ck look at that example, Mr. Chai rman, but I don't know all of the other que s­ tions that have to be answered.

Monday, 12 April, 1982 MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I am familiar wit h the area because I just live a little bit fu rther up the street and whi le it's not in my constituency I do know the problem. The access of PR 478 is a main access to the village from the south; it is not the only access to it, it is one of the accesses, and it does carry a fair degree of traffic.

So the concerns of the Highway Department are fair ly legiti mate concerns, and I'm not faulting the personnel in the Highway Department one bit; they are attempting to protect the hi ghway which is one of their jobs, but at the same time we have to look at the overall im pact that it has on the community, and the development of that communi ty, and the alternativ es that are open to the communi ty if the Highway Department is insis tent. It means that development in that area ceases if there is no fu rther access.

Were there room for a limited access road, the problem would be half solved, but when you're in a completely su bdivide d area, that option is no longer available. To provide a limited access to that would requir e the taking of half of the lots that have already been su bdivided. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate what the member is saying. There are more stri king examples than that over which I have had some involvement.

That has to do wit h hi ghways like Henderson High­ way north of Winnip eg where on fi rst brush the department would like to say, or the Hig hway Traffic Board in that instance, would like to say, no, it's unsafe to add another access to that hi ghway. And as a lay person, I say you're full of it, because you've already got a million and one accesses and one more isn' t going to make one hoot of dif ference, and it won't in my opin ion. You 've already restri cted the flow of traffic there to the point of satu ration and I don't think it makes any more dif ference there.

It's really a street that services a tremendous number of people. So we do have to sort of refine or fine tune, in my opi nion, our policy and our thinking in line with what I wou ld consider to be logic of a gi ven situation and that's all I can say in response to this particular exam­ ple. I'd be willing to look at that one, just in that light. MR . GRAHA M: I thank the Min is ter for his consi deration. MR. USKIW: Yes, that's fine. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Member for Pernbi na. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, a couple of other areas I'd just like to cover.

Un der the Driver Lice ncing, has the Min is ter got plans to bring in the biling ual drivers' licences? MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Min ister. MR. USKIW: I'm told that that won't be on stream until about October, Mr. Chairman. MR. ORC HARD: How about bil ingual veh icle registrations? MR. USKIW: Not at this moment, Mr. Chairman. 1354 MR. ORCHARD: Would it be fair to assume that vehi­ cle regi strations will be avai lable and biling ual by the next licencing year, the February 28th? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, given the dir ection that the provinc e is now on wit h respect to that que stion, I would like to belie ve that to the extent that it's possi­ ble and pr actical, we would want to keep extending that service. It's not a service, it's a right accordin g to our Constitution so that in essence we minimi ze the problems with respect to that question. Ju st when we can bri ng onstrearn that provision, of course, is some­ thi ng yet to be determi ned: (

a) its desir abil ity and need; and (

b) the timing. I wou ld tend to thi nk that it probably will be done, but I haven't decide d on that question nor have we discus sed it at this poi nt. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Member for Pernbina. MR. ORCHARD: On the drivers' licences, which understand are corning on in October or thereabouts, what will be the syste m? Will this be a bilingu al driv­ er's licence on request or will every Manitoban's driv­ er's licence be biling ual? MR. USKIW: No, they will all be bili ngual, Mr. Chairman. MR. ORC HARD: Is there a particular reason for choosing to go all biling ual and not, say, bili ngual by request? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, one reason is very obvio us and that is the inspection system will have to f1,Jnction in both languages. If you have a police officer that apprehends a driver and wants to view the licence, logically one would assume that person would have a right to vie w it in either French or English as I under­ stand our rules and the Constitutional provision. MR. ORC HARD: The que stion I asked was - the Minis ter intends to make a bilingu al licence available to every Manitoban? MR. USKIW: You 're talking about a licence plate? MR.

ORCHARD: A driver's licence, and my qu estion was why was it chosen to have every Manitoban carry a bi lingual driver's licence and not possibly make it one, where if you so desir ed a bilin gual one, you could request it at your renewal ti me? MR. USKIW: That wou ld be a very dif ficult process, Mr. Chairman. We have households that are French­ English that are bilingual. We have people that may not appear to be bilin gual but who are biling ual and would want it that way.

There would be no way of determ ining the desirab ility of it between one person and another; it would be a nig htmare trying to sort it out in my opi nion. Secondly, the enforcement end whic h I alluded to a moment ago, it seems to me will have to be applied in either language. MR. ORCHARD: Is the Min ister indic ating to me that there is going to be both French and English on each

Monday, 12 April, 1982 licence? Is that correct? MR. USKIW: Yes. MR. ORCHARD: Well, I fail to see the enforcement problem if both French and English are on the licence. I can't see where there is the enforcement problem. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chair man, if you have a, as I would see it and I'm only speaking to the qu estion intuitiv ely at the moment, let's say, a French communi ty where the sort of common language or daily language is French, the likelihood is that you will probably have a French-speaking enforcement officer who may speak English, but may be more at home, shall we say, or at ease in his own language or her own language and therefore a dual licence or bili ngual licence will facili­ tate that person -(Int erjection )- well, but the both will be there. MR. ORCHARD: I see what the Min ister is getti ng at. I can't see ... MR.

USKIW: It's an intuitive MR. ORCHARD: I don't know whether his intuition matches mine or not but nevertheless the decision I take it has been made that as of October of this year, licences will be issued bilingu al in the provi nce. Driv­ ers' licences will be issued bilingu al in the province. MR. USKIW: Yes, that's correct, Mr. Chair man. MR. ORCHARD: The regi stration, the decision on bil­ ingual registr ation of vehicles, will not be made until the next vehicle registration year? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, we're not eq ui pped to deal with that at the present time; it seems to me that it's logical that the whole process be looked at. MR. ORCHARD: In the regis tration now, what sort of a process - is that more complex to get into bilingu al, more costly, or what's the problem with that? MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chair man, there is a tremend­ ous of complexity. You have the insurance package that tie s in with the registration syste m, so that if you went that route, obviously it's going to take some doing to put that kind of a package together.

You have a multiplici ty of agents that are handling regi strations throughout the province so there may even be a fairly sub stantial trai ning component involved and so on. I don't know what would be involved but I would think that is going to be a piece off before we are able to even look at it, Mr. Chairman, if we are going to. MR. ORCHARD: Then it may be that bi lingual regis ­ tration of vehicles may not happen? MR. USKIW: I'm not certain. MR. ORCHARD: Has the Min is ter got any costs in this year's budge t for the switcho ver of the drivers' licences to bili ngual? MR.

USKIW: I am advised that the translation has been done and it's a mere reprinting of forms that's involved. There is not a substantial cost item involved. MR. ORCHARD: What might be an edu cated guess on the cost then? MR. USKIW: The department feels that it'll be about $30,000, Mr. Chairman. MR. OR CHARD: Are there any inia tiv es with in the department to, say, put Drivers' Handbooks - I don't believe they're bili ngual now - is there any effort to translate, you know, Bicycle Safety Handbook, Driv­ er's Handbook and a number of the publications of the department to offer them in the French language? MR.

USKIW: The Driver's Handbook has already been translated into French and the test papers, I believe, are also translated. MR. ORCHARD: Are there any other of the mor e wide ly-used docu ments and handbooks of the department that will be translated in the near futur e? MR. USKIW: No, the answer is in the logic of it. Onc e you go down that route they will all ultimately have to be in two languages, Mr. Chairman. All of the informa­ tion pieces that flow from the department should be eventually in the two languages. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the licence plate contract has been let.

Could the Min ister indic ate what the contract price was for manufacturing only? MR. USKIW: About $645, 000, Mr. Chairman. 1355 MR. ORCHARD: Was that the price of -t he success­ ful tender was located in Wi nnipeg? MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chair man, the department chose not to take the low bid. The low bid came from out of provi nce. MR. ORCHARD: Yes, I am fully aware of that and the person chosen to do the manufacturing is located in Wi nnipeg. Could the Mi nister indic ate if the $645, 000 was the price of the tender as originally subm itted when the call for tenders was received? MR.

USKIW: The or igi nal subm ission was $674,37 4.63. MR. ORCHARD: The contract for the iden tical work was awarded to that firm at a cost of $645 ,000 even? MR. USKIW: Yes, the two figur es represent the same work, Mr. Chairman. MR. ORCHAR D: So, in other words, to bri ng the tenders closer together the department negotiated about a $30,000 reduction to the manufacturer of the plates? MR. USKIW: That's correct, Mr. Chairman.

Monday, 12 April, 1982 MR. ORCHARD: Now, I noticed that the Minis ter has followed through with the personalized licence plate. Have there been any applications to date for the per­ sonalized plates? MR. USKIW: Not until May 1st are they going to be receivable so to speak. The applications are not out yet to all of the agents, Mr. Chairman. MR. ORCHARD: Has the department assig ned a cost to the person that orders the personalized plates? MR. USKIW: It's $50 as I recall. A set of three plates for $50. 00. MR.

ORCHARD: Is the manufacturer undertaking the manufacture of the personalized plates wit hi n the $645, 000 total contract price or is there an additional cost? MR. USKIW: This is a separate component altogether and there will be additional cost and there will be a cost recovery. In fact, this aspect of it should be a profitable aspect, Mr. Chairman. MR. ORCHARD: That was what we had in mind at the time. Could the Min ister indic ate what he was able to negotia te a manufactured cost on the three plates with the plate manufacturer? MR. USKIW: $7 per set. MR. ORCHARD: That's not a bad busi ness to be in.

Could the Min ister indic ate what the cost was in changing the colours on the licence plate? How much blue paint did he have to throw away? MR. USKIW: I understand, Mr. Chair man, there was a cost savi ng in that we didn 't have to buy the blue paint and there was some sur plus black paint around, so there was a cost savi ng, in fact. MR. ORCHARD: The blue paint hadn't arrived yet, then I take it. MR. USKIW: That is correct, Mr. Chair man. MR. ORCHARD: Was this the only reason that the Min ister chose the red, white and black because there was black paint around that he could use? MR. USKIW: Not at all, Mr.

Chairman, I don't mind pointing out to the Memb er for Pembina that we. thought those Tory colours were a bit much. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Min ister has just in di cated that red, white and blue was chosen only because it was Tory colours. You know, the Min ister under a very peri pheral insp ection could watch the television over the last couple of nights and see the Win nipeg Je ts in red, white and blue carrying Wi nnip­ eg's and Manitoba's colours to the National Hockey League. The provi ncial flag has the Uni on Jack on it yet, which is red, white and blue.

The Minis ter makes light of this, but that's a colour that generations of Manitobans and Canadians have defe nded thi s coun- 1356 try under, red, white and blue.

And if one goes to colours, although the Min ister seems to be rather hung up and possi bly - I don't thi nk it was as much thi s Min is ter as maybe some of his front-bench col­ leagues and maybe from the extre me end of the bench that he's on, that would cause the problem, because you know red, white and blue are the colours of, for ins tance, England in their flag; the Netherlands have red, white and blue in their flag; New Zealand and Austr alia do; Norway does; the USA does; Iceland does.

So does France for that matter, and France even has a socialis t president right now, and I can't under­ stand why they wou ldn't like the red, white and blue. But it stri kes me dumb , Mr. Chairman, that the coun­ tries that have red, white and black are the Upper Volta; South Yemen, a communist country; Iraq, which is a rather que stionable country of hu man free­ doms. And, low and behold, Li bya has red, white and black, and here this Min ister has taken the colour scheme of the Commonw ealth and of the nations of freedom in the world and su bstit uted it for the colour scheme of Lib ya.

I'm shocked, dis mayed and not very happy about it, as Manitobans are, and I say that, Mr. Speaker, because what Manitoban could possibly not want to have a licence plate in red, white and blue? Now, would that not just absolutely tickle anybody's fancy? And I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that if this Min is­ ter was to hold up his red, white and black licence plate and ask Manitoba ns whi ch they would prefer, red, white and blue, or red, white and black, he mi ght even find some of that 47 percent that voted for him last time would say, "We would much prefer, red, white and blue." MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, the member is only half right when he sugge sts that we have a red, white and blue plate. After the sun sets, Mr. Chairman, all colours are black, so it's merely the daylight hours that would give us the dis ti nction that the member is looking for. The pr oblem wit h matching colours, of course, is compounded when we already have the background in place, and the red lettering in place - puts us in a position of not too many options, Mr. Chairman.

Black seemed to be a colour that was the nearest alternative to the blue that was there that would look relatively attractive, and really the deci­ sion was based on that. There is no doubt in my mind, Mr. Chai rman, that the Member for Pembina was pushi ng his luck a bit in trying to promote the Conser­ vative colours on a fou r-year campaig n to get re­ elected. We wouldn't want hi m to su cceed in that venture, Mr. Chairman. We thought it was a bit much. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Member for Radis son. MR.

GERARD LECUYER (Radlsson): Followi ng up on some of the que stions that were asked earlier, can the Min ister tell me what is the total cost of print­ ing driver's licences? MR. USKIW : Driver's licences? MR. LECUYER: Yes, the driver's permit. MR. USKIW : Mr. Chai rman, whi le we're waiting for

Monday, 12 April, 1982 that piece of information I think the Member for Pem­ bina should recall two things: the PCs lost the elec­ tion in November, and the Je ts lost it the other night. So, there's no logic in sust aining the old colours, at least not for awhile in Manit oba. About $50,000 is the answer to the qu estion put by the Member for Radisson. MR. LECUYER: Then, Mr. Min ister, would I be cor­ rect in suggesting that the figur e gi ven awhile ago was incorrect?

When you stated awhile ago, that the cost of printi ng biling ual licences as compared to the total cost of printing the licence, you said that the addi­ tional cost of printi ng the driver's permit in biling ual would be an additional cost of $30,000.0 0? And I mi ght suggest even further, Mr. Min is ter, that the additio nal cost is zilch. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the advice that I have here is that there is an additional cost. MR.

LECUYER: If you're talking about the ini tial translation in doing it, but when you state that, to provide a bili ngual licence costs an additional $30,000, I would go ahead and say that is incorrect. MR. USKIW: Yes, the member is correct. If you're reprinti ng, then the only added cost is paper. MR. LECUYER: There are no additional paper costs, Mr. Min ister, if it's provi ded, biling ual driver's permit, it's on the same paper. MR. USKIW: No, it's a fi rst-time cost only, Mr. Chairman. MR. LECUYER: That is as I believed it to be. MR. CHAlRM AN: 9. (a)

(1) Salaries- pass; 9.(a)

(2) Other Expenditur es-pass; 9.(b)

(1) Salaries-pass; 9.(b)

(2) Other Expenditur es. The Memb er for Pembina. MR. ORCH ARD: Thank you. The decrease from last year to this year is strictly in the cost of the licence plates, am I not correct in assu min g that? MR. USKlW : Yes, that's right. MR. ORCHARD: Are there any other increases in there that are beyond the ordin ary cost inflation fac­ tors, any new programming that .. MR. USK IW: That is the sum total, Mr. Chairman, is the licence plate component -(In terjectio n)- the decrease, yeah. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Member for lnkster. MR . DON SCOTT (ln kster) : Mr.

Chair man, I'd like to just make a point of a problem I ran into a couple of years ago. We got the thing solved with the co­ operation of Mr. Dygala and the Min ister at the time, the Minis ters both of Highways and of Energy. In essence, we were doing a study on potential for energy conservation and using a fleet of vehicles in Manitoba. It's very dif ficult using the way the statistic s are currently gathered in the regis tration of vehi cles, to be able to watch how not only the number of vehi­ cles, but also the type of vehic les that are on the road.

We have done up a program; Aut opac has that, and with the MVB's permission, have run last year's as well to giv e us that update.

What I am suggest ing perhaps, is that I would think it would be a vsry usefu l manageme nt tool for the Motor Vehicle Branch to have a better idea of the types of ve hicles that are on the roads in Manit oba, that it should be good for the management tools of both your department and the Department of Energy, so that we can make some forecasts in the Depart­ ment of Fi nance as well, I migh t add, because the amounts of revenues that are going to be accruing to the province can be forecast fairly decently when you look at the types of vehicles and the down-sizing of vehicles that is presently taking place.

I think that as far as a management tool, I know if I was in your position I wou ld like to be able to have an idea of what kind of vehic les are coming on the market; what kind we can ex pect both in revenue generation from the regis tration of motor vehicles; plus, for looking, if we are and I would hope we are looking, to try and con­ serve fuel in Manitoba, especially in the transporta­ tion sector, where there is so much room for fuel savi ngs that we're able to monitor and be able to calibr ate how much of the fuel savings is a response by Manitobans to swit ching to smaller cars and cut­ ting second and thir d family cars.

The program, I mi ght add, is already available and has already been used twice at least. I think there's been actually four years done with it now from '78, '79, '80 and '81. MR. USKIW: I'm just wonderi ng whether the member would clarif y. Did he say Auto pac was doi ng a moni­ tor on it? 1357 MR. SCOTT: Aut opac has all the records and does all your computer work for the Motor Vehicle Branch; the Motor Vehicle Branch does not process the records. It collects the records and Auto pac does the computer work on it and that's who you ha ve to go through.

That's who we had to get; I think we got $1,000 from the Department of Mi nes and Energy at that point in time to develop a program and to run a program. MR. USKIW : The Department of Energy is involved in a number of thrusts with respect to energy conserva­ tion involving other departments. In fact, we are sti ll looking at a number of thrusts in this department under the energy saving component or whatever they call it, the TEMP program, which isn't onstream but that's a dir ection that we're looking at.

That's where it falls under more properly, the Department of Trans­ portation rather than the Motor Vehicle Branch although they may utilize the data from the Motor Vehicle Branch to come up with their fig ures. MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, the reason I bri ng it at this point is because the permission must be given by the Motor Vehicle Branch and the Min ister responsi­ ble before you can go into the records of that branch. That's the reason I raise it at this point.

Monday, 12 April, 1982 MR. CHAI RMAN: 9.(b)

(1) Salaries; 9.(b)

(2) Other Expenditur es-pass; 9.(c)

(1) Salaries-pass; 9.(c)

(2) Other Expenditur es-pass; 9.(d)

(1) Salaries-pass; 9. (d)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Mem ber for Pembi na. MR. ORCHARD: The rumour mill has it that the Assistant Deputy Min is ter is going to be retiring shortly. Is that . ? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, there is truth in the rum­ our. Yes , the Registrar has indic ated that he wants to take early retir ement for personal reasons and we regret that decision qu ite frankly. He is a person that has been with us for many many years and I know he has a few years in him yet, qu ite a few qu ite frankly in my opinion.

I respect though his desir e for lighter things to do, so to speak, his desi re for some greater involvement in life away from the busine ss world, so to speak. I can't fau lt a person for wanti ng to enjoy a longer period of retir ement than would be the norm if that is thei r cup of tea. While I say that, we do regret receivi ng the letter inf orming us that he intends to retire fairly early, namely, I think by the end of Jun e of this year. I have expressed my preferred position to Mr.

Dygala and that would be that he carry on a little longer, but I certainly don't want to stand in the way of what he consi ders to be the right thing to do in his time in life, but we certai nly appreciate the services that he has given to the provi nce for a good number of years. MR. ORC HARD: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry to hear that this time the rumour mill is correct because in the time that I worked with the Registrar he was most co­ operativ e and provided the kind of advice that you asked for.

He may have disagr eed upon occasion but that's only normal and certainly did provi de a lot of years of very dedi cated service to the Department of Hig hways and Transportation and to the Provi nce of Manitoba. I can only, on behalf of Her Majesty's Loyal Opp osition and my colleagues who have been Min is­ ters of Hig hways over the past number of years and worked with Mr. Dygala, our si ncerest best wis hes on his early retir ement. We're sorry to see him go and it's going to be a big job to fill and congratu lations on the years of servi ce you've put in Mr. Dygala and please accept our very best wishe s. MR.

USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I'm sure that all members of the Leg islature would want to share those senti­ ments. Had we been in the former commit tee struc­ ture here tonig ht, that is in the Comm ittee of the Whole in the House, I'm sure that all members wou ld want to express that vie wpoi nt and I simp ly would like to say to Peter that we have been very fortu nate in that our relationsh ip for over many years has been a good one and that we, too, regret your leavi ng Peter, but we want to wish you well in your new venture.

Perhaps you would want to respond, it's an unusual procedure but it's relatively informal if you want to respond, that's all right. MR. CHAI RMAN: Leave? (Agreed) MR. PETER DYGALA: Thank you, Mr. Min ister, hon- 1358 ourable members. I come unprepared to giv e a speech, so I'll be brief unlike some people around the table someti mes. I have been with the provi nce for 31 years or will be shortly; all of those years have been spent with the Motor Vehicle Branch.

They've been interesting, exciti ng and frustrating years sometime s, but on the whole I think that perhaps I can see to at least myself that here and there I did a piece of work that perhaps has helped other people. Thank you very much. MR. CHAI RM AN: With that, we'll pass the resolution. Resolution No. 88. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $12,084, 100 for Highways and Transportation for the Motor Veh icle Branch for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1983-pass. We'll go back to the fi rst item in Hig hways and Transportation , 1.

Gen eral Ad min istration, Minis ter's Salary - The Member for Pembina. MR. ORCHARD: We'll get around to that, Mr. Chair­ man. We only have another hour and fiv e minu tes to make our motion. Mr. Chairman, the Min is ter indi­ cated that we could di scuss the rail road abando ned right-of-way's issue here and the Min ister has this under review. I would urge him, as we have done in the House, to complete that review as soon as possib le and get on with the task of allowing the adjacent landowners the opportunity to purchase that right-of­ way. I mi ght give the Min ister a little background that he no doub t has.

This right-of-way thing has been an issue for over four years now and I have worked with it when I was an ML A; as a backbencher, I worked with it; for the Minis ter of Economic Development, fi rst off, because that's the department it was put through. Then it was transferred when I became Hig hways and Transpor­ tation Minis ter to that department. It's been 4 years in the making; we finally got the agreement about 6, 7 months ago from the Federal Government that they were transferri ng those rig hts-of-way at a fair ly nomi ­ nal cost.

We had circulated to all the departments who might have an interest in that land and they, the departments, indi cated which portions of right-of­ way should not be sold. Those would be ones adja­ cent to hig hways or for Hydro or telephone rig hts-of­ way; those have been reserved and will not be sold. But the other ones, where they traversed farmland and private property, we could see no benefit to the contin ued ownership of them in the Crown becaus e there would be maintenance costs, etc., etc., would have to be borne by the provi nce and we instit uted a sales program.

I believe what we did is we agreed to sell a half-mil e or qu arter

section portions of right-of-way for a sum of $100, and that we believed would cover the legal costs, paper work costs or at least a reasonable por­ tion of it. It wou ld not at the same time even though the rights-of-way were gif ted to us for the price of legal costs incurred by Ottawa, it would not represent a profit making venture on behalf of the government, nor would it be a terrible im position upon the lan­ downer to put up $100 to acqui re the railways. Now that process had started I suppose in about Sep­ tember, possibly October, but I believe it was Sep-

Monday, 12 April, 1982 tember, and we were di sposing rights-of-way to the . farmers. Now. the Mini ster stopped. that; there's a number of requests on his desk and I'd just like the Min ister to indic ate what the criteri on of his review is, and when he would expect to have that review com­ pleted and proceed with the sale of those lands to the adjacent landowners. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, one of the reasons for the current position is that we didn' t qu ite know and we're not at all familiar with the criteria that was establis hed by the previous government with respect to the dispo ­ si tion of those lands.

Also, even if we did know, it may very well be that we wouldn't agree with that criteria. I would suspect that we will likely agree with almost all of it but we put the whole thing on hold in order to give us an opportunity to review that, so that in the event that we had some dif ferent prior ities in some areas that we would be in a positi on to recapture for the right of the provi nce those rights-of-Way. But I don't have any particular knowledge where that will take place.

It's just a matter of a bit of caution so that we don't proceed to the point of no retur n and then later on find out that we should have held some of these propertie s for whatever public need. So the only pro­ cess that has been holding it up really of late has been the Estima tes' review pr ocess. Since Agriculture and Hig hways are both in Com­ mit tee at the same ti me, neither of us are able to look at the policy as it was and to come up with a determi­ nation as to whether we agree with it or whether we are going to make some changes.

But I don't believe that is a lengthy process; I think we can do that rela­ tively soon. You know, once we're through with our Comm ittee work, we'll have some time freed up for that. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that answer and once again I would jus t point out to the Min ister something he already knows; that on some of those rig hts-of-way traverse good agricultural land, and as spring approaches these people want to know whether they can rejuvenate these rights-of-way and farm straight through them.

There is some cost involved to the landowner if he, in the process of rejuvenating these rights-of-way and he's also very anxious to know , if he does not own the property, who might be maintaining it because there's a weed prob­ lem along some of fhem. They've been a problem because abandon ded rights-of-way are just that, abandonded; no one's looking after them. I would urge the Min ister to undertake that review as qu ickly as possible. I think he'll find upon analysis of the process we went through that we did circulate all the depart­ ments.

We made sure that none of the rig hts-of-way were needed for other government purposes. We give every municip ality the opportuni ty to say whether they wanted it for their own munici pal work, and only after both levels of government in the provi nce had tu rned down or indic ated they had no further use for those rig hts-of-way did we then make them available to the adjacent landowners.

It's only to the adjacent landowners and I think the Minis ter will find the pro­ cess to hail!'! been pretty thorough and caught most of the hookers that are potentially in there and was one worth proceed ing with, so I would urge him with the greatest of haste to do that because spri ng fast approaches. MR. USKIW: Well I appreciate the comments, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mou ntain. MR. A. BRIAN RANSOM (Turtle Mounta in): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wou ld like to make a few com­ ments on the same item and ask a couple of qu estions of the Min is ter.

I have a little trouble in accepting his statement that he's held up from deci sion-mak ing by the Estima tes' process. Really, of the time si nce November 30th, we haven't been involved in Est i­ mates to a very great exte nt. I'm wonderi ng why in this case the Min is ter couldn't just simply accept the fact that the negotiations had largely proceeded to com­ pletion under the previous govenment and take the bull by the horns and say the decision was made and let it go so that this decision can be completed. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I think it's only logical that when you have a change in government that a number of areas are put on hold almost instantly just for the simp le need of policy review. You know, the people of Manitoba, people of any provi nce who change their government want a change in policy. I didn' t anti cipate any particular changes that mi ght occur from this review process with respect to rail lines that are abandoned, but I think we owe it to ourselves and to the public at large to at least look at what was there as a policy and whether or not we concur with it, and if we do we proceed on.

If we want to make some mi nor changes we will make them but at least we have to have that opportunity. The member sug gests that there was an awful lot of time si nce November 30th. The fact of the matter is that he knows that a transit ion of government at this time of the year is one horrendous obstacle course, Mr. Chairman, if the new government is going to do its job at all.

You know, the Estima tes' process is halfway under way which means that the new Minis ters have to grapple with an ongoing process that they may not even agree with and ·try to either make some new policies with in each department or complete the pro­ cess that is there and suggesting that they're going to skip a year sort of thing. Then there's all the other things that tie in with the Estima tes' review if one is on Treasury Board, which I was one of the Min is ters having to review all departments, not only the two that I am responsible for.

So the hours in the day were somewhat short, I have to tell my friend from Turtle Mou ntai n. One could have perhaps reduced personal time to four or fiv e hours out of 24 instead of the six or seven but that's basically where it was. 1359 MR. RANSOM: Mr. Chai rman, I can accept that if the government wis hes to review areas of policy that are of an ongoing nature that the government would want to review the policy that had to do with the gen eral sale of Crown lands, for instance. This is a rather restricted situa tion limited to a number of cases where indi viduals believed that they had a commit-

Monday, 12 April, 1982 ment from the government that they were going to get the land back. Perhaps the Min is ter doesn't realize that this is causing su bstantial di ffi culties for numbers of people certainly in my constituency and I'll just giv e them an example of one situation where a rail line traverses a

section of land that a farmer owns. It doesn't happen to go dir ectly across, it curves its way across his section, the land doesn' t belong to him; the fences that are supposed to be keeping cattle from the rig ht-of-way are deterior ated to the point where they are no good any longer; the farmer's in a situation of havi ng to build over two miles of fence along that right-of-way to keep his cattle off of it when, if it was tu rned over to him with 200 feet of fence, he could have the right-of-way fence.

He's faced with that kind of situation right now because spring's coming up, as the Min ister knows, cattle are going to be going out on to pasture before too long, and to that farmer, this is a very seri ous problem that he faces and there are sev­ eral others like him. So, Mr. Chairman, I would ask that the Min ister try and make a decision on these que stions at the earliest opportunity, this week if he possibly can. He's going to have to make a decision, if he keeps the land, whether or not the government is going to fence it or cover any costs of weed control.

And as a last qu estion and a very specific one, Mr. Chairman, I would like to know from the Min ister whether or not he has acknowledged the letters that he has receiv ed from people with respect to his matter and what sort of an answer, in general, that he's pro­ vided to these people. MR. USKIW: Well, no, Mr. Chairman, I have not seen the letters that the member alludes to.

After his ques­ tions in the House the other day, I did contact the people in the department who have a number of them and who simp ly held them pending a decision on policy, which probably is the wr ong approach, they should have been acknowledged, at least, indic ati ng that a policy decision will be made later. But, in any event, I gather there are some, but I have not read one of them excepting for the one that was handed to me personally by the Mem ber for Nia kwa who handed to me his letter personally. That's the only one that I have read.

I don't know how many there are, I gather there are others; but I have instructed the department to proceed with a review of those now on, an ad hoe basis, so that we don't wait for the overall policy review. They may be very straight forward and easy to decide upon. I hope to do that in the next day or two if I have the time. MR. CHAI RM AN: The Member for Turtle Mountai n. MR. RANSOM : Mr.

Chair man, I know that my con­ stitu ents would be encouraged to hear that the Mini s­ ter is going to try and deal with it with in the next few days, but they will be very disappoi nted to learn that letters that were di rected to the Min ister, as far back as the mi ddle of March, don't get to the Min ister. I think that some of his colleagues especially have made a point of saying that this is an open govern­ ment, that the doors to thei r offices are open and people can approach them.

Here's a situation where a good numb er of people have had some faith in that and have written letters to the Min ister expecting some response and now we learn tonight t hat the Min ister hasn't read the letters. I believe I wrote a letter to the Min is ter myself on the 24th of March bri nging it to his attention that these sorts of thi ngs were happening. So, Mr. Chairman, I'm hopeful that the Min is ter will giv e this his personal attention before the end of the week because I expect it will relieve him of the task of havi ng to sit in a committee here very much longer. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I too am not sure why they were not acknowledged. The normal rule of thumb in the office, as the mail comes in, is to have an acknowledgment of letters that are received , even though the acknowledgment merely indic ates that a decision or full answer will come later. Maybe they have been acknowledged and I'm not aware of it, Mr. Chairman, but in any event, we will undertake to do the few that we do have in very short order. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Memb er for Portage la Prai rie. MR. LLOYD HYDE (Portage la Prairie) : Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Min ister, I failed to bring up an item that has been my concern for some time and I wish to bri ng it to your attention now; that is the program of spraying of our hig hways and byways, provi ncial roads, in our provi nce. I'm very concerned of what is goi ng to happen if we don't get on top of this issue before too long.

I spoke this afternoon to the Esti­ mates of the Min ister of Agricultur e on the same topic and it is my wish that your department, along with the Department of Agricultur e, get their heads together and get on top of this because, as I said earlier, if we don't show some concern on this issue it's going to get out of hand to the poi nt that the farmers are going to be up in arms agai n and I'm sure that your govern­ ment's got enough troubles with the farmers right now without adding more to it. 1360 I don't have to mention the fact, but I will, that we do have two noxious weeds that are more common to us, that is the sow thistle and the Canadian thistle, but the most seri ous weed that is showing up today is the milkweedj.

In our area and, I believe from what I understand of my colleagues that it is getting qu ite general throughout the provi nce, but in our area there, Highw ay 26, is badly in need of some heavy spraying on that. I want to say that the road to Delta and 240 north of Portage, that has got to be - but I can understand it, the damn marshes are there and the sow thistle seeds are flying all over the ruddy country. I don't know, as I say, we must get on top of it. I would hope that you, Mr. Min is ter, will look to this seri ous problem and show some action towards that. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman, you know environ­ mentally I wou ld like to think that the Department of Highw ays merely has to conform to what is allowed for the Department of Agricultur e with respect to the weed problem and the use of herbici des. Now I know that there are certain circumstances which will not allow us to do that, depending on the local terrain - marsh areas is a good example. We may not want to get involved with chemicals, whatever; there may be some exceptions to the rule. But, by and large, I wou ld

Monday, 12 April, 1982 think that what is licensed for use in agriculture should be a.legiti mate product to use in the hig hways syste m. I don't know that there ought to be two poli­ cies qu ite fr ankly.

I have not been able to ident ify the reason for two dif ferent approaches by two depart­ ments on that issue, although I know we had two dif ferent approaches when the former Member for Thompson was the Min ister, wherein he applied his own logic, and that was there should be no spraying whatever, which didn 't make sense or did n't conform with what the rest of government was doing. - (Interjectio n)- The former, former, former, yes. I have no hang-ups like that. Whatever is licensed for use for that purpose, in my opinion, should be used, but I wouldn't want to argue with the licensi ng author­ ities.

If a chemic al is found to be undesirable by the licensing authorit ies then certainly we wou ldn't want to be using it. MR. HYDE: Mr. Min is ter, I'm not arguing the point of the dif ferent types of chemic als. We have chemic als that the farmers themselves are using right up to the roadside s: and we have our government levels at the R.M. level, they're spraying their road allowances: and I'll be dam ned if I can qu ite understand why on earth the government of our provi nce can't get on a pro­ gram to elimi nate some of this trouble. MR. USKIW : Perhaps maybe I'm not familiar, Mr. Chairman.

I thought that the government and its departments were in fact looking after their own rig hts-of-way, if you like. I was not aware that the Highw ays Department was somehow negligent. Per­ haps I'm learning something here, Mr. Chairman, I don't know. MR. HYDE: Mr. Min ister, I'm sure that you and I both know that we're never through learning, but let's hope that you can and will follow this up. MR. CHA I RMAN: The Member for Minne dosa. MR. DAVI D R. (Da ve) BLAKE (Minnedo sa): Mr. Chairman, we only have about half an hour whether we decide what we're going to pay the Minis ter so I won't be too long. MR· .

USKl .W: It's a good thing I'm ind ependent. MR. BL AKE: I was going to get to that.

Ju st followi ng along on what the Member for Portage la Prairie sai d, there are weed inspectors in most municip alities or municip al di stri cts and I'm afraid that the Min ister might be able to, with his good offices and through the Min ister of Agricultur e's offi ces, also impress upon them the im portance of what happens when some of these noxious weeds of the more prevalent kind, Leafy Spurge and a few others, that were almost eradi cated a few years back, have now started, to reappear and once they get away it's like some of the other di seases that spread, as the Min is ter well knows.

There are cases where I think the weed inspectors ride along the roads in their half-tons with the spray machi nery on them, or riding in the back of a tractor, and they're travelling down the road at a fair speed and you're missing the odd one. The farmer 1361 coming along a while later maybe with a bale wagon that's travelling a little slower can spot the vari ous weeds and he knows that they're not bei ng looked after and if they're not ni pped in the bud it can be very, very serious. But that was just to underline what my colleague from Portage la Prairie has sai d.

I was encou raged b·Y the Minis ter's remarks on the railbed problem, as I have expressed before, and I know the Min ister is a man of decision because it did n't take him long to change the colours of the license plates when he came to office and I know that he will grasp the situa tion. I was encouraged to hear him say that he will make a decision in a few days on the railbeds because, Mr.

Chairman, there was a senior civil servant that had worked through many, many governments in charge of this particular pro­ gram, it had been approved and it was a good sensible program and everything was laid on and everything was go and it was just a matter of days and days before all the decisions were made and we wouldn't have had the problems with fence lines and the spring work coming on that we're going to face now if that decision is delayed too much longer.

I am encour­ aged with the di spatch that the Min ister handled the license plate problem, that I know he will act equally as qu ickly on the rail bed situation and we'll be watch­ ing the next few days, Mr. Chair man, to see the deci­ sion handed down that the railbeds will be handed back to the farmers and they can proceed with their spring operations and clean them up, build their fen­ ces or tear them down. whichever the case may be. I will be communicating that to my constituents, Mr. Min ister, so we'll look forward in anticip ation to your decision in the next few days. MR. USKIW : That's fi ne, Mr.

Chairman, I appreciate those comments. There is no t reason for any delay. I don't foresee anything there, Mr. Chairman, other than there may be the odd exception to the rule which I don't know anything about at the moment but, by and large, I see no reason not to proceed. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Member for Assinib oia. MR.

ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland): I would just like to say that in our particular area a number of roads have been started and they have not been completed and the people are very di sappoi nted that there is no expenditur es of money in those particular PR roads for this coming year, namely, 421 which is a road which was almost completed, there's only six mi les to go. We need some construction on that road in order to complete it which would connect the No. 75 Hi gh­ way with the No. 30 Highw ay.

The 201, there's six mi les left to be completed on that one; the 243, we had a good start on that road and we need to complete these roads because these are very heavi ly travelled roads. My area is probably dif ferent than any other area in the provi nce. We don't have that many miles of road, but the mi les of road that we do have are travelled very heavily and there's a lot of money being generated from my particu lar area towards the road building program throug hout the entir e provi nce.

I would just like to draw these roads to the attention of the Minis ter and hopefully we will be able to complete these roads

Monday, 12 April, 1982 wit hin the very near future. I am certain of one thi ng, that the Min is ter is going to see many, many delegations appearing before him. He promis ed me that he was goin g to have an open door, that whenever I was going to be coming in with a delegation and so on that he wou ld try to accommo­ date them and I am certain that this is going to happen because we do need these roads.

We sti ll have many people travelling many mi les in order to pick up their mail over a road which is di sgraceful to drive on and we do need these extra dollars spent on these roads in order that we can service that particu lar area. With these few comments, Mr. Chairman, I just hope that the Min ister is going to have the open-door policy which he promised and that whenever I try to make an arrangement with muni cipalitie s to come and visit the Min is ter that he will be able to see us without too much delay. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I know that not everyone is happy with the road construction program as it is indic ated. I don't think that I was ever happy in any one year of 18 Sessions. But, in any event, to be fair I think that the member should recognize that the road program is much more evenly distri buted throughout the provinc e this year than it has been for a good number of years. MR. BROWN: Not in Rhineland, it isn' t. MR. USKIW: I know that's not something of any com­ fort to the former Min ister, Mr. Chairman, or maybe he does take comfort from that, I don't know.

But I have to say that the road program this year has what I would consider to be a fair di stri bution of work throughout the provi nce. One of the problems with road buildi ng, as the former Minis ter would know, is the fact that there is a political geography to roads and I don't think we should deny that; there are pres­ sures from ML A's and pressu res from municip alities and local Chambers of Commerce and so on.

If we wanted to politicize the road program we would have one hell of a time to spend all the money in the rural ridi ngs that we represent, if that's what the member is alluding to, because we don't represent that many of them. The members opposite have the bulk of them, so it's not a political road program in that context and I know that some members on the other side, who have looked at the road programs, have recognized that.

I can tell you, at least I want to tell the Memb er for Rhi neland, that I don't believe there was a new dollar beyond carry-over dollars that were allo­ cated to my constituency in four years. I don't think there was a new dollar. There was carry-over dollars from '77, but I don't think there was a new dollar voted , but the former Minis ter, who sits here today, had prior ities as well and I'm not going to argue with that, Mr. Chairman.

He had his prioritie s and there perhaps is a deg ree of redressing of that in this year's program but certainly there is a fairly balanced road program throughout the Provi nce of Manitob a this year com­ pared to what it's been in the last three or four years. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: I recognize the problems that the Min - ister has in these particu lar areas and I realize that not everybody can be looked after in the same year and so on.

But I would like to have the assu rance from the Min ister again, as he gave me the other day when I was talking to him personally, that we would at least be given the opportunity to present our case to the Min ister and be able to demo nstrate to him that there is a need on some of these heavily travelled PR roads. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, there is no problem with that. I have seen a good number of delegations today and there's a whole host of them yet to arrive. I cer­ tainly have no problem in accommodating that kind of a dia logue with interested people from that area.

I indic ated earlier that I was terri bly interested in trying to balance off between traffic counts period and ton­ nage counts in terms of where one wants to priorize dollar spending so there may be some trade-offs there on a regional basis. You know, we have a limi t of dollars that we provide for new construction and somehow we have to make the best use of those limited dollars; a $100 million is not a lot of money in road construction in one year, unfortunately.

We can't build many roads for $100 million and so we have to try to somehow satis fy all of the regi ons of the provi nce where we feel the need is the greatest, so to speak. The Trans Canada Highway eats up qu ite a bit of money every year; the four-lane projects are going to take up qu ite a chunk of money; jus t the completion of some of the big projects are going to eat heavily into this year's spending pro­ gram. It has nothing to do with politics. It happens to make sense to carry on and complete those projects that were started by the previous adminis tration; it has nothing to do with personal bias.

It has to do with the reality that's out there. The fact that the inter­ change on Trans Canada, No. 12, must be completed. It's well under way and we intend to finish that as quic kly as we can because not to that wou ld be wast­ ing money already spent and that is not the kind of game that I am interested in, Mr. Chairman. MR. BROWN: There's one other comment that I would like to make. I took considerable interest in the road from Thompson to Split Lake and from Split Lake to Gillam.

I was on the Hydro Board at that particu lar time when we approved the expenditur e that we would pay half the cost of the construction of that particular road. It's pretty important to Hydro that this road be put in place; that when the next dam under construction proceeds on that particu lar dam that we have an alternate way of transporting eq uip­ ment into the area other than by way of - right now there is only one recourse and that is rail road. You'r e at the mercy of whatever they decide to charge you as far as transportation is concerned.

I just wonder what the Min ister has in store, whether he's going to con­ tinue with a particular program which we, in the Hydro Board at that time, had hoped to see was going to be fulfilled with in the coming year. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I believe the contracts on that road had been let by the previ ous admin is tration for the completion of that road, the construction por­ tion of it, if I'm not mi staken. I may be wrong; there may be some component in this year's budg et. If it is, 1362

Monday, 12 April, 1982 it's probably a carry-over component. -(Int erjec­ tion) - Did they carry over any money? I can't remem ber. So, the Memb er for Pembina says gravelling is new money. Well, all right, so there is some new money there. You know, the roads in the north are terri bly expensiv e to build and it crosses my mind qu ite frankly whether or not with respect to some communi ­ tie s yet not linked up whether it isn' t cheaper to pro­ vide air service with sub sidiz ed travel than to build the road stretches that would have to built to link them up.

Th e interest on the money alone could pay the sub ­ sidy on the air travel; that's about the size of it in some of those communi ties. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. ORCH ARD: Mr. Chairman, I take this opportu­ nity to wind down the Estima tes of the Min ister of Highw ays and Transportation. I am pleased to see that the Min ister is prepared to move and move rather swif tly on that right-of-way di sposal question because that's one that has just been sit ting around much much too long.

It's been around for the four years that I've been part of a government in the provi nce and it can be resolved. n1e Min ister made. some reference to the politics of the road program and I can't let that comment go unnoted because the Min ister indi cated that his pro­ gram this year was one of the most equ itably dis trib ­ uted one in some time -(I nterjection )- yes, Harry Enns indic ated that as well, that's right. It's one of those ones that the political veterans use on us green newcomers and, you know, the Min ister made a cou­ ple of references to the dis tribution of the hig hway construction dollar.

I might point out that although it's changed slig htly si nce the last election that it was nigh unto im possible to spend a dollar on highw ays wit hout spending it in a Conse rvative cons_tituen cy. That did n't de ter us from spending better than $5 million a year on 392 through the constituenc ies of, I su ppose, Flin Flon, Churchill and a couple of the others that were ar ound there and we even got a few dollars into The Pas for the Chairman to drive home on a nice smooth road which he can do south of town.

The Min ister made the comment that in four years he did n't have anything but carry-over, well, he was sma rt enough in his eight years to get his r.oad paved to his doorstep. On the seri ous side, I am pleased to see that the Min ister is ind icating that he's going to consider the construction of roads on the basis of tonnage patt­ erns because that's very im portant and rail line aban­ donment. That's something that we had targeted in on, 250 bei ng a road that we'd spend particular emphasis on and there were others that were in the planning mill.

So the Min ister is on the right track; it's the same track we were on. That's the only way you can really proceed, I think, in the road construction program. I am sorry to see that - oh no, the Min ister of Energy and Mi nes hasn't qu ite left yet. But I am cer­ tainly pleased to see that the Minis ter of Energy and Mi nes has not had any influence on you as Min ister of Highways. and Transportation in that you're sti ll going to be constructing roads with shou lders.

That is of great comfort to all of us and it's a great comfort to all those many thousands of Manitobans that work in the health care system because they did n't want to have roads without shoulders because the accident rate and the inju ries would certainly have skyrocketed. I'll tell you what, I'll turn the floor over to the Mini s­ ter of Energy and Mi nes so that he can ... MR. CHAIRM "N! That's 1.(

a) Min ister's Salary. MR. ORCHARD: Now just a minu te now, I was turn­ ing the floor over to the Member for Transcona. There's a couple of things that come out in the Esti­ mates and the Min ister has indic ated that a number of the policy areas he can't really comment on because he hasn't h!!d an opportunity to examine the policy areas such bei ng the new role of his min isterial responsi biliti es. That ·answer we will accept; on the other hand, the Min ister is a veteran of this Leg islature and knows where not to tred from time to time.

I think the lesson of his colleague, the Min ister of Natural Resou rces, was maybe a very exemplary one for all Mini sters presenting Estima tes because from time to time maybe his problem was that he was qu ite too honest with the members of the committee and said exactly what he was going to do and qu ite often that was qui te a little dif ferent from what the general impression of what he should be doing was. So we look forward next year to revie wing this Minis ter's Esti mates and seeing any and all of the policy changes that may be developed over the sum mer recess of the Legis lature.

But there is one area that I'd like to point out. In introducing the total Estima tes, the Min ister of Fina nce indic ated some 15 percent increase for the Depart­ ment of Highw ays. On one hand he based his increase on projected spending increases, I believe, not over pri nt over print; he used the Supplementary Supply plus the print and th at represented, I think , a 14.9 percent

whereas his print over print was 17 percent or thereabouts. There was a little bit of jigg ery-pokery going on with the Min ister of Fina nce and his presen­ tati on, and he used the inf ormation that the Depart­ ment of Hig hways was up by 15 percent. If one takes the one item alone of the construction budget, I think you'll find that the actual is close to $93 or $94 million which means that the construction budget is actually up by about 7 percent over last year unless the Min is­ ter adds Supplementary Supply at a later time this year.

It's not the 15 percent as alluded to by the Mi nis­ ter of Fi nance. 1363 The other thing that we found out in the course of the Estima tes was that the Minis ter is going to be coming in with a sub -supply of approxima tely, oh, $3.5 million for the water bomb er and its staffing and crew which aren't part of the Estima tes. But I guess to date if I could sum up, the Min is ter has changed the colour of the licence plates in four short months from the red, white and blue of a number of our neighbour ing countries to the colours of Li bya and south Yem en.

He has frozen the sale of rig hts-of­ way which I will admit he indic ates he's going to add ress very shortly and possibly even this week. The thir d thing that's been accomplished is that we have Mr. Bill Jans sen back on staff through a consu lt­ ing contract; with Mr. Janssen was im ported the Sas-

Monday, 12 April, 1982 katchewan Crow rate position, right or wrong, but nevertheless primarily the Saskatchewan Crow rate position. In his spare time, Mr. Ja nssen has saw fit to write a beef income support plan for the Province of Manitoba, also qui te close to the Saskatchewan pro­ gram, so that the farmers of Manitoba are encouraged and pleased to know that this Min ister and the Department of Agricu lture once agai n has the servi­ ces of Mr. Bill Janssen.

I won't gi ve his affectionate name out in the country because that has caused some objection from time to time but with agriculture and transportation policy bei ng now formulated by Mr. Jans sen, farmers tend to rest less than easy now. The other thing that the Minis ter has accomplished is the hir ing of Harry Shafransky as a special assi st­ ant. He told me tonight earlier on, although I'll allude to it only gently, that he hasn't been carrying out some of the responsi bili tie s of a special assistant because the cupboard is bare.

You know, there are a couple of other areas that the Minis ter has indic ated that he's going to make some changes in which we're going to watch with cauti on, particu larly the one of the staff person in his office who's going to be looking after equal opportunity employment. That's a pretty avant-garde area to get into and we'll watch that one with a great deal of interest. But I'm pleased that this Min ister has over the past week-and-a-half that we've been dealing with his Esti mates committed to consult with the ML As on both si des of the House on road construction , the prioritie s and the needs.

I'm pleased to see that he is taking a look at traffic density in terms of prior ization of provincial road reconstruction. I'm also pleased that he's willing to sit down and di scuss the fu rther­ ance of the road-dam combination project that I have in my constituency that I think he would find to be a most useful concept to have for a test area. All of us on this side of the House look forward to working with this Min ister and bringing our concerns of the de partment to him for his assistance and for success­ ful completion of projects that are of some priority in our areas. Sinc e Mr.

Gr etzky is now playing hockey for the last 40 min utes, Mr. Chairman, I think unless there were some further comments that sti mulated debate from the Min ister that would be our contri bution to his Esti mates. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I do want to point out to the Memb er for Pembina that if you took the Supple­ mentary Supply Estima tes that are yet to appear and you add on top of that the Enabling Vote which was in this department which is now in Fi nance at $2. 16 million that the total sum of the department really would be 202 roughly, $202 million as opposed to 170 vote over vote.

So you're looking a qui te a su bsta ntial increase there. The member is right with respect to the construc­ tion dollars because of an add-on project that was put in late last year, namely, the road to Gi llam. I don't know just at what level, you know, one can sus tain a program or all programs relative to inflation pres­ sur es. I know that the energy costs have hit this kind of a department rather severe ly in the last few years and it's put qu ite a cri mp in the ide a of expansion of programming with respect to this department and one or two others.

But I think it's fair to say that we are keeping pace with it and that's about all I think we can expect to do in these economic ti mes. With respect to the member's observations as to the use of people, I have never fully apprecia ted the attacks of members opposite on people that are not in the committee to respond to those attacks, it doesn't matter who they are, it is wrong.

I think it is wrong in principle to attack someone that cannot respond back who is serving the public in whatever capacity and the indiv idual that the member alluded to has served the public of Canada for many many years before he entered service in the Govern ment of Manitoba. He served the people of Canada through a number of other governments in a number of other provinces vis-a-v is a consulting firm that he worked for for a good number of years - a very promi nant consulting fi rm.

I believe the Conservative government of Mani­ toba prior to 1969 indir ectly employed that same per­ son in the hiring of consulting services. -(I nter­ jection)- That's right, so did this govern ment indir ectly. -(I nterjection)- That's right, indir ectly. -(Int erjection )- Well, I don't know if he was involved in TED or not, but certainly the person that has been the su bject of some personal vindic tivene ss has worked for a number of governments and mostly Conservative governments acr oss Canada in one form or another.

The notion that a public fig ure or public servant should be subject to attack in a con­ sis tent way as this one was is something that I think takes away from the credibili ty of the people that employ that method, you know, the idea of innuendo without justif ying it, for example. I think it's clear and I think the ind ividual in qu estion will readily admit his political beliefs, Mr. Chairman, I don't think that's at issue. That is why the person was hired, to conform in the policy area with the government of the day, and that's how it ought to be.

When the Conservatives are elected, I would hope that they don't hire New Democrats as their key advis­ ers; I would think that they wouldn't be doing that, Mr. Chairman. They wouldn't certainly satisfy their con­ stituenc y and that applies equally to all political par­ ties. There has to be some common motivation between the government of the day and the key advis­ ers that they use from time to time, so I have never really found it di ffi cult to accept that concept no mat­ ter which government in Canada employed it.

In fact, I would think they'd be kind of stupid if they did n't rely on their fait hful who have the capacity, who are able people, to help them along in governing the country. I know that the Pri me Min ister of this country couldn't possibly feel comf ortable in hiring the services of someone who was very close to the Leader of the Opp osition in Manitoba. It just isn' t going to work that way and that is the reality of the political process. With those few comments, Mr. Chairman, I think I'll vote myself the salary. MR. CHAI RMAN: That's 1.(

a) Mi nister's Salary-pa ss. 1364 No. 80 - Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $3, 192,000 for High­ ways and Transportation for General Ad minis tration for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1983-pass. Committee rise

Monday, 12 April, 1982 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAI RMAN, Jerry T. Storie (Fl in Flon): The Commit tee will come to order. Conti nuin g with the Agricultural Estima tes, Item 4. (

e) Technical Servi ces Branch, Item No.

(1) Salaries, Item No. 4. (e)(1 )- pass; 4.(e)

(2) Other Expenditur es-p ass, 4. (e)(2)-pass, (e)-pass; 4. (

f) Agricultur al Trai ning Branch, 4.(f )

(1) Salaries- pass; 4. (f)

(2) Other Expenditur es, (2)-pass; 4. (f)

(3) Agricultur al Societie s - the Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Chairman, the funding for the Agricultur al Socie ty Fai rs, I believe I'm correct in this, the fairs, the Keystone Centre, the operations of the Agriculture Extension Office in Brandon or the Agricultur al School falls wi thin this appropriation, I believe. Could the Min ister indic ate any major changes to the Agricultur al Societie s' fund­ ing fair programs or any policy changes that he may be introducing in this particular area?

I think my col­ league maybe has a qu est ion or two on this as well, I don't have many. MR. CHAI RM AN: The Honour able Memb er for Gladstone. MRS. CHAR LOTTE OLESON (Gladstone): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a qu estion which involves the Aus tin Agricultur al Museu m, is ther e any change in the fundin g for that this year? MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Min ister. HON. BI LL URUSKI (In terlak e): Mr.

Chairman, in the total area of the Agricultur al Socie tie s there is an increase in the budget of approxima tely $60, 000 to cover increases in prize money to fai rs; there's an increase in the operating expenses of the Aus tin Museu m, the horse race meets -(Int erjection)- in terms of prize money. Th ose are the three, some increase in the judg es' fees; those three areas amount to that $60,000.00. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Memb er for Arthur. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, could the Min is ter indic ate what kind of a cost-shared agreement they have with the Austi n ·Museum? Has there been any­ thing worked out?

I know there were monies spent by the province to work with the Board of Di rectors of the Aus ti n Museum to look at some alternatives that may be put in place to expand the use of, to get a high er throughput of touris ts through - I'm sure the Min is ter of Tourism would be interested in this too - a higher throughput of people, generating more revenues to support the Aus ti n Museu m.

I know that, in particu lar, there were some dif ficultie s between the Aus ti n Museum Board and the Hall of Fame Board and that was one of the other reasons that the previous admin­ istration, in committing funds to the expansion of the Keystone Centre, in fact, would provide, and did pr o­ vide, additional space for the Hall of Fame who had made the decision to move away from the Aus ti n Museum and provide space for them at the Keys tone Centre in Brandon. Are they working on an ongoi ng agreement or what kind of a commitment does the Min is ter have to the Aus ti n Museu m?

I'm sure there are a large number of pioneers who feel, and I feel as well, that they've put together a tremendous showplace for agriculture and some of the his torical happenings, the machi neryj. Certainly we, as a government, were committed to supporting them by picking up a defi cit of some, I think it was close to $100,000 in previous expense when we came into office and then made an annual commitment. What is the commitment that is going out, the present commitment and the agreement that they're planning on working out with the Austi n Museu m? MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member probably recalls that there is a study under way between I think one Helgi Austman, who was the former Assistant Deputy Min ister wit hin the depart­ ment, to develop some long-range plans, and who's working with the Board of Di rectors of the Austin Mus eu m, in terms of which way the museum should go in terms of the thrust that the museum should take and they are exam ining a number of options. That study is still under way. There is no ongoing formal agreement in terms of the Museu m and the Go vern­ ment of Manitoba.

We no doub t will want to revie w very closely the recommendations and the di scus­ sions that are now goi ng on between Mr. Aus tman and the Federal Govern ment and the Manitoba Go v­ ernment and the Museum Board to see what dir ection the recommendations go towards. At that point in time , we' ll be able to determine what kind of ongoi ng future commitment there is.

In terms of present day commit ments, we are pro­ vid ing, along with the operating bud get which is increased from $108,000 to $120,000 this year, plus an additio nal student em ployment program of six stu­ dents, which is the same of last year in terms of assis t­ ing the Museum with their ongoing operations. That funding is in place, there's an increase there, but any­ thing additional there is nothing in terms of at the present time that we've already dis cussed and we' re working on. We're waiti ng for that study that is under way to be completed and then we can examine where we go from there. MR.

CHAI RMAN: The Memb er for Arthur. 1365 MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I believe the appoi nt­ ment or the study that was announced was done not too long ago; I'm pretty sure it was the Min ister him­ self who was involved or one of the members of his government that put the study together. We had fund ed boards of di rectors or the board of directors to look at other operations throughout the country to see what in fact could be done to make some funda­ mental changes that would assist the museu m peo­ ple.

Could the Min ister indic ate to what level is he - I may be in the wrong place, I maybe missed it, but I would like him to make a comment on the Hall of Fame, what financial commitment is there with in the Department of Agriculture to support the Hall of Fame this year? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, there is $1,000 increase,

Monday, 12 April, 1982 from $11,000 to $12.000, for the Hall of Fame in terms of the operations of the Hall of Fame. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for Robli n-Russell. MR. J. WALLY McKEN ZIE {Roblin-Russell): I have two or three que stions, Mr. Chairman. I wonder, can the Min is ter advise the House, I think it was the Advi­ sory Board met and made certain recommendati ons regarding building grant applications for the various fai rs around the province of how many of th ose changes can we antici pate in the year ahead? I'm wonderi ng if the Minis ter is conti nuing with the bur­ sary program that was in place.

We were very fortu­ nate to have one of my constituents qualify for one of those last year and they really appreciated it. The other thing is the Keysto ne Centre in Brandon. I think the provi nce picks up the deficit or half of the deficit, if the Minis ter can advise me how the Keyst one operated in '81. The last qu estion, Mr. Chairman, is the Farm Safety Program. I wonder if the Min ister can advise us of any new programs or any new sugge stions from the department to try and cut down the numb er of farm accidents that we're experiencing across the provi nce. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, before I get the answers to the que stions concerning Keys tone and the Farm Safety Program, could I ask the member which bur­ sary he is speaking about? MR. McKEN ZIE: There's one for Agriculture and there's one for Economic s I understand. That's from the Agricultural Socie ty Advisor y Board as I under­ stand it, I think they're about $100 each. And then there were some bu rsary programs in Home Ee and in Agricultur e. I don't know how they were, I think it was eight of Agricu ltural bursaries and some maybe 15 in Home Ee or it could be vice versa, I'm not sure. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, possibly the member is referring to the Evelyn Ames bursary. That is, I am advis ed, a trust fund. The department is not involved in that area dir ectly. There is a trust fund that has been established and it's ongoing by I'm sure some group; we're not involved in that dir ectly. Mr. Chairman, with respect to the Keysto ne Centre, the annual operating budg et of the Centre is approx­ imately $600,000.00. The deficit for 1980 was approx­ im ately $80, 000, while the projected deficit for 1981 is $60, 000.00. This deficit is shared 50-50 between the provi nce and the City of Brandon.

The Centre has had good years in 1980 and 1981, but as we all realize ever-in creasing costs are affecting the Centre opera­ tions. There has been a new major addition to the Centre which honourable members would have had the opportunity to view during their trip to the Royal Wi nter Fair and I'm sure they went through, or maybe had the opportun ity to tour some of the displays, although the floor has not had the concrete put in. The addition is bei ng su pported by the Provinc ial Government to the tune of $600,000.00.

The addition is costing approxima tely $1.2 million; we've already put for ward the $600,000 towards that addition, the province has already provided those funds. Insofar as the deficit, as I've indic ated , we've commit ted our- selves to approximately $60, 000 in terms of the deficit. Oh, yes, the Farm Safety Program. Mr. Chai rman, the department cost -shares this program or at least provide s funds to the Manitoba Safety Council which has developed a fou r-sess ion farm family safety course for presentation to farm groups throughout Manitoba.

Assistance has been provided by organiza­ tions like Manitoba Hydro and the Agricultur al Chem­ ical Assoc iation as well to this group. There are 10 qualified ins tructors located in several dif ferent communi tie s who have been trai ned to present this safety course, and any rural group wishing to sponsor the course may apply. The course was offered to 10 communitie s in '81-82 and we're expecting some increase this year. I have to say to the honourable member that although we sponsored 10, fiv e were cancelled because of low registration.

People were just not tak­ in g them up; but of the five that were delivered, approxima tely 130 farm families graduated involving approxima tely 250 people in the course that was offered, so in terms of those people involved, a fair ly reasonable number of people, but there are courses that were put on were not taken up as much as we had hoped that they would be taken up. In terms of the building grants to ag societies, Mr. Chairman, the funds that are being provided are the same as last year, approxima tely $145,8 00.00. MR. McK ENZIE: One final que stion, Mr. Chairman.

I wonder, can the Min is ter advise, is there any change in the dis trict di rectors of the Agricultural Societie s Fair Board? MR. URUSKI: Not at this point in time, no. 1366 MR. CHAI RM AN: The Honour able Mem ber for Gladsto ne. MRS. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Min is­ ter, I'm wonderi ng, do these Estima tes reflect any sup port program for multi-use buildings for agricul­ tural societies on agric ultural socie ty grounds? I'm particu larly thinking of halls and rinks, and I'm partic ­ ularly thinking of one communi ty in my constituency. Treherne is interested in replacing a building.

Does thi s reflect any plans or are you planning that in the future? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, specifically, the funds under this appropriation would be used predomi­ nantly for agricultural socie tie s and the funds are limited. In terms of seeking additional funding for multi-use buildi ngs, I wou ld assume the capital grants that would be available under the lotteries program, the communit ies wou ld use those kinds of funds. At the present time, I'm not aware of any other program that would be available to communi ty groups to make use of joint funding for multi-use buildi ngs.

The funds that are being provided here as I understand are spe­ cifical ly for the use of the Agricultural Society. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I think the Memb er for Gladstone has raised an im portant point and one

Monday, 12 April, 1982 which I would take the opportunity to dis cuss with some of the communities and their ide as and efforts to expand on facilities with in a communi ty. It would be helpful I'm sure to those communi ties if the Mini s­ ter of Agriculture would in part of his Estima tes or expenditur es looked at additional funds not just through lotteries but additional funds committed by the Department of Agriculture to support physical structu res or an accommodation with in some of the rinks and dif ferent parts of the building structure to service the agriculture communi ty.

Because a good example of that is the service that the Keys tone Cen­ tre provides and I think in a smaller way a lot of the communities. The member has mentione d Treherne; they have a desir e as a communi ty to put up a new facility; to have the agric ultural fairs use that building like a lot of the other communities and join t funding by the Department of Agricultur e with other depart­ ments of government, I think, would be a move in the right dir ection to support those communi ti es.

Specifical ly, on this item and I would ask the Mini s­ ter, has he increased the grant to the Women's Insti­ tute and has he rei ntroduced a grant to the Manitoba Farmer s' Union, Mr. Chairman, und er this appropriation? MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr. Chair man, there is an increase from $28,000 to $31,000 for the Women's Instit ute. I want to thank the honourable member for raising the point of some additional funds for capital works.

I wou ld like to remind him and his colleagues, the Spe­ cial Muni cipal Loans Fund was one such type of a fund that was avai lable to governments to be able to provide additional funding and to munici pal govern­ ments or communi ty groups for just those ki nds of projects that the Honourable Mem ber for Gladstone raises and the Mem ber for Arthur raises.

But that, as the member well knows, was done away with and incorporated into the last budget to lower the defi cit situa ti on of the Provi nce of Manitoba, so while now I thank them for their sug gesti ons, I only remind them that they should have been a little bit more stri ngent with their own colleagues when they were in govern­ ment and when they did away with those kinds of funds which were used to assis t communi ties, muni c­ ipalities, for the building of municip al works or com­ munity structures and the like. That kind of f•Jnding was available.

As well, I should mention that it may be worthwhile to consider programs of labour forgiveness, for example, in terms of the construction where commun­ ity groups got together in their communi tie s to build additional structures.

Those kinds of programs were in terms of labour forgiveness where communi ty groups would channel thei r funds which they would have raised in the community for the materials and the supplies, and the provi nce would assis t in terms of providing some labour funds to assist in the areas of unemployment, to take people of the welfare rolls and to take people off Unemployment Insurance and the like, people who were employed. Those ki nds of programs which were in place were, as the member well knows, done away with.

They did bring some assistance to communi tie s in terms of building very worthwhile projects, of extending community halls, and building muni cipal garages and those kinds of thi ngs. Certainly, I appreciate those kinds of comments, but the members well know that while they're now talking about those kinds of pro­ grams, the ax fell very qui ckly after they were elected . I'm pleased to hear thei r comments because now they're at least acknowledging that there was some meani ngful assistanc e provided to communi tie s and people who were unemployed.

I guess it does matter in the Legi slature which side of the House you are in and I gi ve that for their information. Mr. Chairman. I thank the honourable member for asking me whether or not we have any funds for the Farm ers' Union. There's been a request, but there's been no specific dollar in these Estima tes, and cer­ tainly I thank the honourable member si nce he well knows what it's like to provide grants to groups, either dir ectly or indir ectly, for services rendered. He knows very well how funds can flow from government, but we have not provided any funds at this point in time to the Farmers' Union.

I would think that any funds to any group that we would provide would be tied to some work and project that they would be undertak­ ing, that there would be some results from the project that would be usefu l to us in government or the organ­ iza tion itself. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman. the Min ister tries to lead me to believe that because of some particular changes that we made, the rural communi tie s were not able to add agricultural facilities, dual purpose facilities. or rinks, or communi ty centers. That isn' t the case at all.

The Min ister, if he think s the program was doing so well, why hasn't he introdu ced it in his Estima tes to do just that? Mr. Chairman, we also saw the unemployment rate go down to one of the record lows in Manitoba dur ing our term of office. We didn' t particula rly have to put in the make-work project he's talking about, that isn' t really the purpose of our ob jective. But, Mr. Chair­ man, what we were referring to is a meani ngful facility fund ed through the Department of Agricultur e so agricu ltural societies could use them during fair days and that type of thing.

I used the Keysto ne Centre as an example in a little larger way, of some of the multi­ ple uses that are taking place with taxpayers' funds. Mr. Chairman, the reason I asked the qu estion on the provincial Farmers' Un ion organiza tion that for the four or eight years prior, at least the four years prior to us getting into office in 1977, the New Demo­ cratic government of that time contrib uted some $20,000 per year.

I don't know how many years prior to - about 1973 that would have been put in, but that totalled as I look back and saw it, some $80, 000 to a farm organization that represented probably less than 5 percent of the farmers of the Province of Manitoba. I jus t couldn't fi gure out how he could jus tif y it. He is now referring to some specific work project, or some particular job he wants them to do. They are pretty well aligned with the present Min ister of Agriculture and that's why I'm asking.

Is he prepared , or is he providing, or are there funds tha t he has available to provide to the Farmers' Union either in a di rect way as a grant or to hire a service that they may be able to provide? I would ask the Min ister dir ectly, is he pre­ paring to do that, or has he done it to this point? 1367

Monday, 12 April, 1982 MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I answered the que stion of the honourable member. I indic ated that there's been a request for funds, but there's been no specific amount indic ated that we will be providing at all. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, is he going to provide funds to the Farmers' Union? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, certainly I would want to consider any application for funds very seri ously in terms of the specific use of those fu nds. MR. DOWNEY: One can only assume, Mr.

Chairman, that the Min is ter is prepari ng to provide financial assistance to a farm organiz ati on that represents less than 5 percent of the people. That's really what we have to assume from his answers and he is not deny­ ing it, so we will proceed to carry on. I think probably the Min ister would be well advi sed if he does make such an agreement or a contract, that we would know about it and the specific objective or the reasoning for that particu lar funding. Mr. Chairman, I don't think I have any more que s­ tions in this particular area unless some of my col­ leagues have. MR.

CHAIRM AN: The Honour able Memb er for Niakwa. MR. ABE KO VNATS (Ni akwa): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess there's not too many people up in the gallery as per usual just when I get up to ask a que sti on, but I would like to just ask the Honourable Min ister a couple of small questions here. Fir st of all, are there any grants bei ng made to the St. Vital Agricultur al Socie ty? Are they still in exis t­ ence? And if they are sti ll in existence, to what extent are they keeping the Agricultur al Socie ty operating? MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I think the Honourable Memb er for Ni akwa could probably enlighten me whether or not the St. Vital Ag Society is sti ll in exis t­ ence. He'd probably be able to provide me with that information. If not, I have to tell him I don't know. I'll be qui te honest with the honourable member. I will check to find out whether that organization is sti ll in existence and what funds, if any, have flowed or are flowing now. I'm not aware of any funds being bud­ geted for that group, but I obviously am not aware of everything that's going on. I'll have to check for that honourable member. MR.

KOVNATS: I would just remind the Honourable Minis ter that the St. Vital Agricultural Socie ty did exist at one ti me. I don't know of any contact with them in the last little whi le, but as a matter of fact the property that they had, they had some sheds there where they had horses, they used to have flower shows all along where the St. Vital Curling Club is at this time. - (Interjection)- The flowers grew well there, that's right. I wasn't trying to be humourous in this regard, Mr.

Minis ter, inasmuch as I thought there there's got to be some societies who do take advantage of the Provi ncial Go vernment and do sti ll accept grants and there is nothing to do with agriculture with these societies at all, but they are accepting grants under Agricultur al Society grants. I think that in some cases maybe they are putting the government through and I really wouldn't want to see that happen. That's one of the reasons I had asked about the St.

Vital Agric ultural Society, not that I had any reason to bel ieve that they were trying to put through the government, but if there's been some connection with sporting groups through the Agricul­ tural Socie ty, arenas and things of that nature. I was just thinking that maybe there's an opportun ity of getting some sort of an organiza tion called the St. Bonif ace Agricultural Society which has much farm­ land around in my area and starting this socie ty, receiving a grant and putting it into a sports complex of some kind, would that be acceptable, Mr.

Min ister, and sti ll follow the terms of reference for the socie ties? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, if there's an agricultur al socie ty and board that feels that it would qualif y for any items under this Budget in terms of grants that may be avai lable, they obviously should be in touch with our branch and to understand how the program operates and contact them. We have our Dir ector of Ag Societies involved in that. If the y would wish to correspond with me, we'd certainly forward a letter on to them so they could be consider ed .

I can't tell the honourable member whether specifically this would be covered or not; I'd like to hear from the group and then that determi nation could be made. 1368 MR. KOVNATS: One step further then, I think that it's a wonderful opportunity. I had asked the Honourable Min ister of Sports and Recreation whether, in fact, we could receive some funding for a covered arena where the gir ls can play ringette, but not with artificial ice, just with a bare surface that will keep -( I nter­ jection)- and I understand that's another part of the story.

What I'm really interested in is getti ng an arena for my area, really that's the im portant part of getting an arena for my area, which if we have to work in with the Agri cultural Society to get an arena because they're going to show a few horse shows or thing s of that nature. I'm laying the cards on the table; I'm not shooting from way out in the left field there.

This is my intention and I would like to pursue it if there's that opportuni ty of calling it an agricultural society and having an arena which we can use as a two-purpose affair, like to play hockey or ringette, and to have horse shows simi lar to what is in Brandon and I'm not agai nst what they do in Brandon. But I'd like to know whether, in fact, we can pursue that here in the Cit y of Wi nnipeg, do we follow the same rules? MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, my remarks to the Hon­ ourable Memb er for Ni akwa, my answer to the Hon­ ourable Memb er for Gladsto ne would be the same one as I gave to her in terms of multi-us e buildin gs, in terms of availabil ity of monies or grants for structu res that are in addition to, or to be used over and above for other uses than an ag socie ty, Mr. Chairman. While in Brandon, the Brandon has an his torical signi ficanc e to the Provinc e of Manitoba as bei ng a provi ncial exhi bition.

They are a joint funding between the Ci ty of Brandon, the provi nce and the Ag Socie ty becaus e of the actually tri lateral use of that facility, so there's qu ite a bit of dif ference betwee n what he is speaking

Monday, 12 April, 1982 of. But the answer I gave to the Honourable Member for Gladstone in solar as joint other uses than just the Ag Society would hold. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(1)(3) - pass, 4. (1)- pass; 4.(

g) Communications Branch, 4.(g)

(1) Salaries - the Honourable Member for Arthur . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the Com munications Branch with in the Department of Agricultur e, as far as the overall detailed and technical information that is provided for the farm com muni ty, has certainly in some people's esti mation not been performing a job qu ite as well as it could have possibly been and follow­ ing those kin ds of comments and di scussion with particu larly media people, people throughout rural Manitoba and people who are responsible for getti ng information out, we proceeded, Mr.

Chairman, to do really an in-hous e study of: No. 1, the qu ality of the communications -(I nterjection )- well, call it in­ house, out-hous e, it does n't really matter, it was done anyway. A very qualified person was hired by the department to review and really the terms of reference I thought were fairly broad as far as the overall objec­ tive, and that was if the information that the Commun­ ications Branch were putting out wasn't of good material or good quality, then the di stri bution of it as far as I was concerned it was better off not to have a wide di stri bution and be kept fairly limited.

So, we're spending public money and I think it's im portant that the maxi mum, we were concerned, as far as tt.a qu ality of the information, it had to be top­ notch and the di stri bution and the effect iveness of that inf ormation had to be as broad and as wide s­ pread as possi ble. At what stage is that review at? Has the Min is ter changed it in any way and will we get a copy of the report? The same, Mr.

Chairman, there were certainly indi­ vid uals who were employed with in the Department of Communic ations, could he at this particular time say if there are any changes of personnel in or out of the Commun ications Branch? As well, there was hired to assis t in some of the communic ations work an indi ­ vidual by the name of Fran Wershler, could he now giv e us the status of that particu lar individual who worked with the Min ister's office but as well with the Communications Branch? MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member likely knows that the study that he's referri ng to is the one that he commis sioned and agains t the recom­ mendations of his department in terms of who made proposals and in terms of value for the funds that were reque sted . The Min is ter, hi mself, made the decision; I guess he wanted to provide someone with a specific job to do. That project was to be concluded by the end of Januar y. We still have not receiv ed the report; we've requested it on several occasions.

We were advised that some time this week or next week that report will be available to us and I am certainly awai ting that report and that analysis that was done. Insofar as staff with in the department, there basically is no changes I think in the full-time staff. There had been a term position that expi red in March that wasn't renewed. There's been another person hired in that term posi­ tion for I think it's a six month term, and we're just trying that out, but in terms of the full positions, the complement still remains the same. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, if the Minis ter's trying to make an issue with me as far as I was concerned, and my not totally agreeing with the admin istr ation or the staff and a particular issue, that certainly isn' t something new. I didn' t agree with my staff, particu­ larly those that were trying to promote metric in the agriculture community, and -(I nterjection)- the comments that are coming are certainly helpful and I will yield the floor to allow some of the speeches to be more dir ectly put on the record. It looks like Russ Doern's been at work agai n. Mr. Chairman, the study which I'm referring to - (Interjection)- Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister refers to the fact that I went agai nst my department in having the study of the Commun ications Branch. I haven't seen any department of any government to this poi nt, Mr. Chairman, that di dn't want to have a review done of thei r parti cular department. Mr. Chairman, it's typi cal for the Min is ter to sit there and say that the Department of Communications did n't need to have a revie w done, that we should spend the tax payers' money and not take a look at really the qua lity and the di stri bution of information from the department. That, Mr.

Chairman, I have no problem with, the same as the Department of Agricultur e, we're not going to push metric all over me and all over the farmers in Mani­ toba. I stood up, Mr. Chairman, and resisted that kind of an action, and it's on the record, it's in press releases, and all the evidence shows how I stood on that position, the same as I felt about the review of the Communications Branch. Mr. Chairman, the Minis ter has referred to the laying off or the firing or the ending of a term position of the Communications person and it's been refilled. Who now has that job, Mr. Chairman, to the Min ister? MR.

URU SKI: The indi vidual that has been hired in the term position is Mi ss Lois Schlosser. I should mention to the honourable member, specifically, I neglected to mention to him that one person from the Communic ations Branch has been seconded to another department to do communications work. 1369 The member also spoke about the departme nt bei ng opposed to havi ng a review done. Mr. Chair ­ man, maybe the Min ister wants to slough that one over or maybe he doesn't, maybe his memory is a bit weak, but the fact of the matter is, the department wasn't opposing the review at all.

In fact, as I under­ stand it, the Min ister authoriz ed the review to be made, the departme nt accepted it, and they received proposals from two groups, or one individual and another group, and in terms of the recommendations to the Min ister, in fact, I believe even before he decided to make the decision, he went ahead and moved it along without having the benefit of his department's vie ws as to the competency and the qualifica tions of the groups involved. So let the member not try and ind icate that the department was somehow reluctant to have a review done.

There was no argument about a review bei ng done or not done, Mr. Chairman. The decision was made by the Min ister to give someone a job in terms of review without regard to the competency and the

Monday, 12 April, 1982 scope of the review and the adeq uacy of the people involved in terms of bei ng qu alifie d or not qualified, Mr. Chairman. Let the Minis ter not try and fudge the record on that one. The member, pardon me. MR. DOWNEY: I'm sure if I sti ll was the Min ister that the farm communi ty would probably have some dif fi­ culties in understanding the policie s and dir ecti on, but not qui te as many as they're havi ng with the cur­ rent Minis ter that's there. I would like to, for the record Mr.

Chairman, say that I in no way, shape or form in bei ng a part of the selection, I di scus sed with my staff the pros and cons of the dif ferent groups who were bei ng recommended. The qualifica tions as far as each one or each group or one or the other were concerned, as far as I was concerned, were pretty much eq ual, depends on the kind of work and the cost to do that work compared, the selection I made, I think , with the department was one tha t wou ld be most effective.

The names, the one who has the job - there's a Gail Watson who is the Di rector of Home Economics for the Province of Manitoba for several years, a person who has a pretty good knowledge of the workings of government, the workings with the farm community, the home economist, the ag reps, the total farm com­ muni ty; and the other individual, I believe was a Doc­ tor Lang, who I went to univ ersity under, he was the Di rector of the School of Ag riculture, a fine gentle­ man and a line person and very capable -(I nter­ jection )- line person, very capable, so I have no problems in standing here debating the two dif ferent qualities of the people, they're both eq ual, but the kind of work that was needed to be done, I felt with the cost that had to be looked at, that the proper deci sion was made and I live by that.

Mr. Chairman, I just want to know specifical ly who was moved from the Department of Communications and what department were they moved to? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, no one was moved. There was a request by the employee to be seco nded to another department and it was granted. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, who was that indi vid­ ual? Does the Minis ter have a problem in telling us who the indi vidua l was and where was the person seconded to? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the individua l was Mr. Allan Cohen. He was seconded to the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affai rs. MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I'm just sorry that the indi vidual hadn't requested that they move prior to this Minis ter coming in. I have nothing wrong with the individual, but certainly it wouldn't have been any problem. -(I nterjectio n)- Mr. Chairman, no, that wasn't what any study was about. Mr. Chai rman, the in dividual, I guess, looking at some of the past as far as the political affilia tion was concerned, one could sus pect that he is not too far away from the thinking of the present government. Mr. Chairman, the study he has indic ated will be released. How, Mr.

Chai rman, and what basis did the Min ister hire the new individual for the Com munications Branch and was the job offered to the individua l who was in that job? Fran Wershler was working there, was the job offered to her to conti nue on or did he hire another indi vidual? What were the qualifica tions and what did he use as his criteria for hiring that ind ividual? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the job was not offered to the indi vidual who was there.

The term expi red and we hired someone else with communications skills who has had experience with rural newspapers for a numb er of years, with the media, and in wri ting with the CBC plus other communic ati ons background and the term is a six-month term to see how things work out. MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I am dis appointed that the Min ister had not given the indi vidual an opportun ity to continue on as I'm sure her employ­ ment was strictly on the basis of qualificati ons, and so in other words one can consider that he gave her the axe or fi red as well as he's done with a lot of the other people that have been around, and particu larly some of the board layoffs that he's made. I just have to assume that when she wasn't offered the job, he hasn't explained why she wasn't. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the member should know that she was on term. Her term expir ed.

When a term expir es the employing authority, the Min ister has the opportun ity to seek other employees or con­ tinue on. We allowed the term to ex pire and we hired someone else also on term and see how it will work out. MR. CHAI RM AN: 4.(g) (1)- pass; 4.(g) (2)-pass ; 4. (g)-pass; there are no dollar amounts under 4.(h), 4. (h)-pass. That concludes the items under Resolution No. 11, the Agricultural Production Division . 1370 THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that it be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $9,76 7,4 00 for Agricultur e, Agricu ltural Production Division for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1983-pass. We will continue with Resolution No. 12, Regional Agricultur al Extension, Item No. 5.(a)

(1) Salaries - The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the Regional Agricul­ tural Extension Services provided by the Department of Agricu lture, I feel in the last four years had been used by the farm communi ty on a broader basis. I know that in coming into office some four years ago, 1977, the morale of the Department of Agricu lture I don't think could have been lower. The agricu lture representatives and the field staff who had to work dir ectly with the farm communi ty were somewhat tremendously broken down.

They were upset, there had been some pretty incredible long term agricultu­ ral representativ es who had left the Department of Agricu lture. The past Deputy-Minister of Agricultur e who is re­ employed by the present government agai n, I feel was overdomi nant in his approach to the controlling of those people and how they should operate. The di rect dir ection of the Schreyer adminis tration with Bill Jan ssen as Deputy-Minister di rected the ag reps to

Monday, 12 April, 1982 work with a very small segment in socie ty, with a very minim al number of farmers, that the more agressive, productiv e farmers the agricultural representatives were told not to deal with them, to communicate with them. They were, I would say, Mr. Chairman, left in a position of being very much as profess ional people, very much frustrated in their jobs to better the total of agriculture communi ty. I would hope, Mr Chairman, that the present Min is ­ ter does not allow that to happen. We have built up over the past four years some inc redib le ind ividuals in the mo re senior positions.

We have, I think, changed the whole attitude of the Department of Agricu lture and their relation ship with the farm communi ty that there to work with the total farm communi ty and I hope, Mr. Chairman , that wou ld be the case carrying on with this particular Min ister. Because, Mr.

Chair­ man, there is no point of us voting funds to hire people who are going to be puppets of a Deputy-Minis ter of Agricultur e or of some left-w ing mi nded individua l with in the senior ranks of the Department of Agricul­ ture and tr y and di rect them to deal with specific people and deal with policy and try and im plement left-w ing policie s ins tead of doing their job as profes­ sional people and try and better the technical skills and the management skills and all those areas that farmer s need sup port from the Department of Agricultur e. Mr.

Chair man, it would be a shame if the whole morale of the Regional Extension Offices were to degrade like they were prior to 1977. 1 would hope, Mr. Chair man, that the Minis ter wou ld not make those ki nds of policy changes or gi ve those directives that wou ld underm ine the effo rts that the ag reps have carried on.

I could name a few names but there have been tremendous contri butions made by the Field Service in the Department of Agricultur e parti cularly when we've seen the tough ti mes that we've seen with the drought, flood and all those elements that we've had to face, at the same ti me, Mr Chai rman with the current economic conditions that the farm commun­ ity are facing. All farmers need the abil ity to contact a profess ional agricultural person to gi ve them advice, sup port and confidenc e that they have someone with in the extension who understands their di ffi culty. I would hope, Mr.

Chairman, that the Min ister does not plan to try and force upon them programs or philosophies that is not in the best interests of the farmers, but it ap pears as if it's starting out already. We have the ag reps returning to program admin istr a­ tors of Beef Programs and Interest Rate Relief Pro­ grams, additional leg work that -(I nterjection)- Mr. Chairman, the Minis ter says, I hope so. Mr.

Chairman, I would hope that he wou ld ask some of his staff to recommend to him how it could be handled better than it was the last time and I'm sure that being dedi­ cated civil servants that they would not return to being bankers or indi viduals who don't necessarily feel that that's their line of work; as I say, professional agrolo­ gis ts who I think have a broad range of responsibili­ tie s throughout the farm communi ty. Mr. Chairman, I would say to the Min ister that it would be a mis take if he was to return to that kind of demoralizing situa tion with in the Department of Agricultur e. 1371 MR.

URUSKI: Mr. Chair man, obviously there may be some dif ference of opinion in terms of how one should admini strate and set the guidance for his department between myself and the Honourable Mem ber for Arthur. The Member for Arthur, if I under­ stand his comments, that if you happen to be a Con­ servative and work in the Department of Agriculture, you're okay. If you happen to be a Li beral or New Democrat, you're in trouble because that's not what the farmers of Manitoba want. That's the way the Honourable Member for Arthur is sizing up and look­ ing at how the Department of Agricu lture should be run. Mr.

Chairman, it is not my intention to operate that way. I've asked and I've received the full co-operation of the staff with in the department and I expect that I, as Minis ter, and we as government will set down cer­ tai n policy dir ections and we will expect the staff to carry out those policy decisions in terms of the way we see policy thrusts going ahead. Mr. Chairman, what t