VOL Nu. 50 1' LEO 1. 0 1 NA NY UNED ITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 30, 1982

November 30, 1982 Tape 2867 EC - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Order, plase! ORAL DIJESTIONS NJEARY: Mr. Speak r. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. I he Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speak r, is it any wonder there are no Statements by Ministers I believe there arc nine absent from their seats. Tis is the Oral Question Period and we do not have any ministers to ask questions of, Mr. Speaker. Could the hon. the Ooverjiment House Leader (Mr. Marshall) - MR. BAIRD: The other half are on their way back. MR.

NEARY: If I were the hon. qentloman, I would go out and tell my constituents all he knows about the situation with Bowaters in Come - Brook. Mould the hon. gentleman tell the house if he has notified the RCMP to start a search for the Premier and the ministers who are missing f 1Dm the [louse? ML. SPEAKER: Order, please! I do not I hink that question is very pertinnt to the Question PerioO and is ruled out of order. MR. NEARY: Welt, I tI Lnk, Mr. Opeaker, that EMO should be notified, Mr. Spec :er, that all the ndnisters are missing. Mr.

Speak r, let me ask the hon. the Govornment house Leader, th Minister of Energy, if 6024

November 3 1982 Tape 2867 EC 2 MR. NEARY: with this now added dimension now thrown out by tie federal Ministr of Energy (Mr. Chretion) in cnncction with their ambition to have a negotiated settlement on the offshore, where the federal Minister 01 Energy las suggested publicly that if the Province is not hapj y, if the reason they are not sitting down at tho negotial ing table and staying in a room and negetiatirmo an offsl ore agreement is because they are afraid of long-term agreement, Mr.

Chretien has recom- mended a short-term agreement, five years, and if oiLher side does not like the agreement after five years, t'ar it up. Now would that new factor now being injected into the negotiobions or into the mix thai we hay 1 would 6025

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 2168 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: the hon. tie Minister of Energy (Mr. Wm. MarshaLL) tell the House if on the basis of negotiating a five year agreement would it not be to the t rlvantaqe 01 the Province in these poor economic times to a t ilown to the bargaining table and c 'ntinue negotiations with the Government of Canada until an agreement is reached, even if it is a short-terni aggrement? MR. WM. MARSHALL: Mr. Speake. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. t ie President of the Counci 1. MR.

MARSHALL: Welt, Mr. peaker, l:he fact of the flatter is that there has been nothi ig official communicated to us from the lederal government mdi atincj that the federal government is taking any kind of a dif'erent slance than it has heretofore in the of Ishore neqo .iations. I would like to repeat that our posltion whici remain: crystal clear, has been communicated to the fed ral gov( rnment on many occasions and very recently as well.

This is to the effect that this qevei nment is ready, willing and abli at any time to sit ci wn and talk about th offshore, to resume negotiations - as matter of fact, in oar opinion it would be to commence n qoti ations fir the f i rst time on the basis in which the' were angina fly ente red into, provided - and 1 (10 not think that this is unreasonable - provided the federal qovenment indicates that it is prepared Lo address itself to the -oncepts to joint management and revenue sharing in accord. nce with the arinciples that were ;et out so clearly in our proposal of January 25, 1982, hich proposal, I might point out, Mr.

Speaker, is almost now a year o id and the government of this Provi ice has not even had the courtesy of a response to it. So my answer to the hon. gentleman is that if the I 'deral qovernment is 6026

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 2868 MJ - 2 MR. WM. MARSHALL: prepard to address itself to the principles of joint management and reasonable revenue sharing and what I men by that is this: With respect joint managenient,wo have proposed hree/three with one independent Chairman, a joint set f regulations so that it is true joint management. Newfoundland does not claim sole management, neither would the ederal government gain it. On the other side of the coin, all they have been talking about are three/two wi h the fedora I government having control.

They regard joint manaqenient as the federal government having control. We simply do not accept that joint management consists of either government having camp] ete control.

If the federal government is prepared to sit down and talk about revenue sharini on a realistic basis- instead of equating it to oqualiza, ion payments, equate it to the welfare of the people of this Province - so the people of the Province, for instance,can look forward to enjoying a per capita income equal to the average of Canadians rather than 49 per cent of the per cci ito income as it is today, so that the people of this Prov rice can ]ooft forward to the time from their offshore re.ourccs where they will have an employment rate equal to that in Canada rather 6027

November 30, 1982 Tape No.28(9 SD - 1 MR. MARShALL: than,infinitesimally, about 50 per cent of the rate in Canadao that we can look forward to taxation rales equal to the average of Canada and so on. In other words, Ii it is prepaod to sit dewn and negotiate on that basis,we are quito prepared to sit down, Mr. Speaker, arid resume negotiations.

To date,reqrectably, we have not eceived this invitat1on To (late the situation stands that thor was a meeting between the Prime Minister and the Premier of this Province whoro the Premier was trying to press upon the l'rime MLnister the justice and equiy of our proposal and earnestly entreatinq the Prime Min ster to address himself to these principles. And as everyone knows , the Prime Minister's response to it w.is, 'We have agreed to disagree The matter must go to curt. You take the Nova Scotia proposal or nothing.

Now if th federal government wished to say to us that they are props ed to enter into negotiations embracing and addressing he concepts of joint management and revenue sharing in accordance with the principles set down by our negotiations,and are piepared to realize that this Province will never accept the Nova Scotian agreement as it was dressed up and delLvcred to us in the federal proposal, that this agreement had been discredited insorar as Ltappliesto the Province of Newfoundland and will never be accepted by this Province, Mr. Speaker.

And if they will listen not only to the people in Newfoundland but to the liberal Leader in Nova Scotia, who points out that that 'lrecment itself is discredited for the purpose; of Nova I tcotia, if they will road the Central Ganadian press such in the Globe and Mail which only last Criclay had an indication as to the justice and cquit of our proposal,then we will sit down, Mr. Speaker, if they i ant to address our proposal, if they want to address the I rinciples of joint management and revenue sharing in a meaningful. way , this Province is ready, willing and able at any time to nit down. But until

November 30, 1982 lope No. 2869 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: that fime, Mr. Speaker, we cannot give away and we will not qive away the birthright and the resources of the people of NewfoundLand. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hoar, hear. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. - Stroker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is it any wonder with that kind of attitude and that kind of answer that we just heard from the hon. gentleman that there are no negotiations going on at the present: time My understanding is, Mr.

Speaker, that the two points that the hen, gentleman raised, revenue sharing and management or control of the rosource are both negotiable items. The hon. gentleman did not addre:$s himsel F to this situation,he just merely squirted out his usual little bit of poison and venom aqainut Ottawa and against the Government of Canada, so wouLd the hoe, gentleman addruss himself to the Tuestion that L put to the hon. qentleinan about a short-farm agre mont, about a five year agreement?

If the hon. gentleman i a worried about a long- terni agreement, about giving something away, if they do not have enough faith and confidence in themselves to be able to sit down and negotiate an agreement that is ironclad,then would they agree to sit down and negotiate a five year agreement and, after five years,if it does not work out to the satisFaction of either party, tear up the agreement and throw it aW3\'' 61129

November 30, 1982 Tape 2870 NM - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oIi MR._SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Order, please: IR.NEARY: Mr. sleeker, the hon. entleman knows that a five year agrement can be negotiated. Mr. Chretien has said he is prepared to entertain a short- rm agreement, a five year agreement. Now would the hon. qentleman address that cluestion Also he could tell the House at the same time that ther are signals coming from Ottawa, not from the Province, because the minister just laid down a number of pro-conditions in public aid I do not think the minister should be negotiating in puIlic SOME lION.

MEMBERS: Oh, OIL: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please: MR._NEARY: The fct of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that there arc two proposals on the table. There Is the federal proposal and the provincial proposal. There are two proposals on the table and somewhere in between there is a common ground for an agreement, a common ground - that is what negotiations are all about. But, Mr.

Speaker, I am beginning to believe the people out there who are saying thu government is deliberately stalling an aqteement, they do not want an agreement, they want to carry on the next federal election campaigi on the fisiery and on the offshore, And if they negotiated n i agreement in the of ['shore - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, pleaser The hcn. Leader of the Opposition Ii> IL Chair to be gettinq into the realm of debate ond maybe he could be more precise wi Lh his question. MR. NEARY: I thinic, Mr. Speaker, the message is getting out.

If they neqctiated an agreement on the offshore the issue for the ne>t federal election would be gone. 5030

November 30, 1982 Tape 2870 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the hon. gentleman again. The are sLqnals and messages coming from Mr. Chretien thit he vould like to sit down around the table in a room and negoti ite, stay there until an agreement is negotiated, Now,Mr. Spelker, would the hon. gentleman tell this House how the pa ties will got together if some- body does not make a move? 110w will they got together? Mr. Chretieii has mad his iiove. Now the hon. gentleman answered today by be ncj na;ty about the whole thing.

Could the hen, gentleman be a little more sensible and use common sense and tell us how the parties can get back to the bargaining table? How can this standoff be resolved? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, a series of questions the hon. gentlenian esked. how can this be resolved, Mr. Speaker? I have already indicated how we can get back to the negotiating table - if the federal government is prepared to Lndicato that it is prepared to negotiate, Negotiatins presume, Mr.

Speaker, that people are talking on subjeets that are going to come to an agreement, not on tw separate parallel lines that will never meet. The parallel inc in manaqoment is the fact that the federal government wnt all control arid we want joint management. If they are prepared to come up to our Level and say that they will La]J about joini maliaqerno it We WI I negotiate. Now SJ)ecI fi ca I ly is to some of the questions of 6031

November 30, 1982 Tape .871 PK - 1 I MR. MARShALL: the hon. gent]eman, ho said that my understanding is that they are now prepared to talk about revenue shiring and nianagement MR. NEARY: Always were. MR. MARShALL: And if th hon. gent teman heard the Minister of Encory, Mines and Resi urces of (anada (Mr. Chrotien) yost rday on the CRC prograiime,he would have seen quite clearly that what appeared to be -now what appeared to be the situation:, I hope it is not so, I hope they will rccons ider- when they La] k about joint management is control] by the federal government. The ieder 1 minister has sole cotrol.

MR.S'lAGG: Right on. MR._MARShALL: Now it is very ditlLcult to negotiate, Mr. ;peakor, if somebody h s a concept that joint management is that you have the sole (ontrol. As to the five yeai contract 1 he says, you know, 'You do not want t give it away in the long-term'. Well, I say to the Ion. gntlemanwe are not going to give it away for five "cars md we ar not going to give it away foi ever, we are not goini to give away for one second the resources of this I'rovi nce. SOME lION. MEMUE tS: Hear, hear MR.MARSII/\IL: lie should well recognize that.

And the proposal foi a five-year agreement: Now how practical can that be, how workable can that possibly be 110w can there be any dove iopnten f, Mr. Speaker, on merely a five -year agreement without there be iny security with rcsp et to the continuance? And what we would do and perhaps what 'jould be convenient for the hon. gent] oian, who apologizes (lay by day for the federal government and LI e way it is trampling on the interests - MRSIMMS And the rights of Newfoundland. MR. MARSHAlL: - and the rights of the people of this Province , sure he would love a five year dealt . It would 6032

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 2871 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: t tke the heat off the Liberal Party in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. MARSHALL: But what would happen would consign the people of thi Province I o a faith Worse than they were consigned to under the Churchill Ea1ls agreement. And that is what we are not going to do, N . Speaker. We have no intention of doing that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. MARSHALL: As to the signals and messages I say this sincerely to the federal government, we have asked for signals and messages.

But ii is not that signals and messages are coming, is what are these signals and what are those messages and what ae these signs? And they are signs that so far, and I thought the interview last night showed a certain amount of what tppearcd to be, and .1 say, 'appeared to be' and I believe is, (onfusi)n on the part of the federal Minister of Energy (Mr. Chretien) is to their proposal. Now I say that is what it appeared to be.

So we want signals and messages, but we want them crystal den i, not the mes:aqe that appeared to be there that the federal minister was thinking that joint management was sole federal control, that he was think ing that monrtingfu] revenue sharing meant getting Newfoundland away from the egunlizationpayment and taking everythina else away from them forever and a day so that their taxes could not come down, their employment rates could not go up, their per capita income could not go up, so that their schools and their hospitals and what have you could not come up to the 1 we 1 e other Canadians. 6033

November 30, 1982 ['ape 2871 PK - 3 MR. MARS[IAIL: we want siqni1s and mossacjos, but the quality ind the nature of the siqnals and messages matter as well. nd, number one, we cannot negotiate on the basis of siina1s and messages S which are uncicar and, number two, I do not think it is let r to expect the people of this Province to negotiate mu oasis other than the basis of embricing the principles and the concept of joint manaqoment and reasonable revenue sharing. SOME [ION. MEMBERS: Hear, hcar MR. MARSJU'dL: Now the hon. gentleman 03 4

November 30, 1982 Tape 2872 CC - talks about pre-con(litlons, again parroting what his masters have said iii Ottawa from time to time when, with the aid of the Libe al Party in this Province they had temporarily succeedd in giving the impression that we were stubborn, groc !y and nasty and wantd everything it would be a groat disappointment to the hon. gentlemen, I know, to see the ay the central Canadian press and the Globe and Mail ast Friday and in other instances have condemned roun ly the federal government and their stand and the way that they have trampled the people of this Province.

But as to pro-conditions and negotiating Mr. Speaker, he has some gall, lie comes in hero and he asks these cjuestion which force me to answer and which I come out publicly ind answer. If he wants to talk about negotiating in public, what about Mr. Chretien last night on T.V.? That is what he was doing. I am not going to be entrapped by the hon. member so that he can get up and say that we are confronting the federal government.

I am saying very calmly and cool ly to the hon. gentleman that if the federal government vill address itself in a meaningful fashion to the princLples of joint management and meaning- ful revenue sharing ilong the principles and the conce}ts that were set out in our unanswered proposal and will realize that this Province, no matter how much they may try to hammer us into the ground, will never bend to the anvil of the Nova Sc )tian agreement or anything like it but insist on managing that resource on a joint basis, on a revenue sharing basis meaningful to us, meaningful to the rest of Canada, if lie can got that through the cranium in Ottawa, then as far as we are concerned, Mr.

Speaker, with a heart and a half we will sit down 6035

November 30, 1982 Tape 2872 EC 2 MB. MARSHALL: and negotiite. SOME HON. MEMBERS: hear, hear MR._MARSHALL: But until hen, Mr. Speaker, ihe situation is that the Leader of tie Government of anada his indicated that we have agred to disagree, in his wnrds,the matter has to go to the Court,' it as rejected the plea eloquently give i by the Premier asking him to embrace and talk about he items of revenue sharing and joint management; if they change, we would be the happiest people Ln the world ad sit down with them.

But until they do, we are not joing to jet the hopes of the people of this Province ip once again, only to see them dashed in the future. SOME lION. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEAPY: Mr. Speake MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. tie Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, if you examine the words just uttered by the hon. gentleman, you will detect that there is not a conciliatory note in what the hon. gentleman said. The hon. geitleman, I believe, is the biggest obstruction we have in this Province in getting a negotiated agreement. I do not believe this Province will get anywhere - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: - a:; long as the hon. gentleman, with that attitude, Mr. Speaker, is makii g the kinds of LatemcnLs 1W jln;t al in H;i louse, you wtl I never oct 0 603E

November 30, 1982, Tape 2873, Page 1 -- apb MR._NEARY: negotiated agreement, and I do not believe Hie hon. gentleman wants ones I think they deliberatty want to keep this an issue for the next federal ejection. The hon. gentleman knows that you cannot have equalization grants and have your revenue from the offshore besides. You cannot have both. You cannot hao your welfare and a job too, the hon. gentleman knows that. And that is unfair. That is very unfair to make a statement like that.

Now, the hon. gentleman also knows that under the Constitution of Canada you can declare the oil and gas off our shores in the national interest; the Government of Canada could do that if they wanted to md Lake it ovc r. And the hon. gent lemon a iso knows that Mr. Lougheed signed SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could I have silence, please? MR._SPEAI<h•:R(Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! MR. NE'ARY: The hon. gentlemen do not like to hear the truth, I know. MR.

SPEAKF:R: Order, please Maybe it is time I referred hon. members to my right and left to Beauchesne, page 132, which says: "It must be a question, not an expression of an opinion, representation, argumentation , nor debate. The question must be brief. A

preamble need not exceed one carefully drawn sentence. A lonq

preamble on a long question takes an unfair shore of time and provokes the same sort of reply. A supplementary question should need no

preamble. MR. WARREN: What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Leader or the Opposition. m 6037

November 30, 1982, Tape 2873, Page 2 -- apb MR._NEARY: Is the hon. gentleman are that Mr. Lougheed, their buddy, their Tory frienh out in Nostern Canada - MR. (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: If the former Speaker will just allow nc, I said is the hon. jontloman aware that Mi. IDugheed has a short-term agreement? AN IION.MI'MUER: lie does no' tie does not? The hon. gentleman shakes his head. The hon. gentleman better check it out, because Mr. Lougheed does have a short-term agreement. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! AN lION. MEMBER: (tnaudibje) Alberta oil. MR. NEARY: Yes, it is a good question.

Is the hon. gentleman aware of that? And, Mr. Speaker, is the hon. gentleman aware that it i a fact that we do not have an agreement on the offshore that is causing our economy to sag and to deteriorate at the moment? Is the hon. gentleman aware that the fislory is suffering because of no offshore agreement, that the forestry is suffering because of no offshore aqreement, that the ronstruction industry is suffering irecaurre of n offshore agreement? And is the hon. gentleman aware that the iron ore industry in this Province is suffe.i ing because of no offshore agreement?

Is the hon. gcntleman aware that the economy of this Province is collapn ing down around our oars? MR. SPKAKER(Russoll) : Order, please: Order, please! • The hon. the Lead'r of the Opposi Lion (Mr . Ncor ry) hru raised a barge number of rarpplementa.ry questions in one sent once. MR. NODDER: What abon L the answers? MR. NEARY: With bric F answers, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Lhe President of the Council. 6036

November 30, 1982, Tape 2873, Page 3 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: Is that not a shame, Mr. Speaker? I mean, what a disgrace not just to Newfoundland but to himanity itself. SOME HON. MEMBERS: hear, hoar It S 6039

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 2874 MJ - 1 MR. WM. MARSHALl: The hon. tin gentleman talks about Mr. Loughe&id having a short term agreeli ort. Ito does not realize that Mr. Lougheed 's agreemet is with 1 ospect to pricing. Mr. Lougheed a has no worries whatsoever with respect to issues of joint sinaqement, no worries at all with rest ect to revenue ;Iciring apart from the pricing which w old affect our ishore as well as Alberta, and Saskotchewan. Ho does not understand the differences and, Mr.

Speaker, it is a consummate disgrace that any person who is elected to represent Nowfoundlanders would get ip in S pubi i c forum and ask such uninformed questIons is that. lie .iskeci, Mr. Speaker, 'Do we know that the forestry is suffering, the fishery is suffering?' Certainly we know that we have, Mr. Speaker, a very fragile economy that suffers worse than anywhere else itt Canada where we have a recession nationally md internationally,and such, Mr.

Speaker, is the make-up and tech is th mien of people like the hon. gentleman that that is the kind of philosophy that would lead them to qive away th birth r ight of Ncwfoundlanders yet to come. SOME lION. MEMIIEI1S: hear, heart MR. rll\RS1IALL: And, Mr. Speaker, we are not about to give away the hi rthri (flit, of Newfoiiitdlanderc now and Nowfoundi anders yet to come just for I tie short oriod of t tme that we are in now and the position we are in now. That is whit the hon. gentlemen would (To.

They would cod themselves on the public trough, itS they wet e so used to (l)init,at the expense of generaL ions yr I to come. HOME lION. MEMIIERS : hear, hoar MR. MARShALL: They got -elected over and over again. We saw that happen in the Upper Churchill when they lid it in the Upper Churchil I;they gae that away so that they could get re-elected ovet and over md over 6040

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 2874 MJ - 2 MR. WM. MARShALL: aqain,and what has happened today? There would be iio in si u'in leon I' lay i r I'irsy hid lot taken that roots. SOME HON. MEMBEOS: Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, you know, lie gets up and the little wea el. words that he uses and he says, 'Do we not realize, fir. Speaker, that they can take it ovur Do we not real i no the j)owu r tha I: the feds ra I qovernrnont has?' Such is the meanurement of the qentleiruin over there.

He might think that thy can take it over,but if they think that they can take it over they will take it over over our dead bodies and of the dead bodies of the people of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: The time has come, Mr. Speaker, for people to stand u! for Newfoundland. AN HON._MEMBER: Rise up in arms. MR._MARSHALL: Before April 8, 1982 we were faced with some - what was it? - with some sixteen gentlemen on the opposite sideniw we only have eiqht quisiiriqs, and if they keep on going :here will, be nothinq left over there. SOME lION. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER (Pusseil) : The hon. the Lealer of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is amazing how the hon. - SOME_HON. MEMIIERS: 3uest i.on, (lUeSti n! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. Ni:ARY: It is amazing hew hen, gentleman can aj plaud such 0 .10w rotten resp nse from the hon. gentleman. 6P1

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 2875 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: It could only come from a buttoned- down, narrow-minded individual . That kind of an answer, Mr. Speaker, coul' only rome from a low down, rottori minded, but tofled-d( Wfl, nor row-minded individual. SOME lION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! There is approximatily five minutes lolL in the Question Period and there has been really about three questions asked in Question Period. I think we should use the rest of the time to the best advantage. The hon. Leader of flie Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, it is unfortunate on such an important matter that we should have lo got down and roll in the mud with the lion, gentleman. SOME lION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. tEARY: Mr. Speaker, is the hon. gentleman aware that Senator 000dy, a former Finance Minister of this Province, made a public statement this morning that the economy and the finances of this Province are in such a mess that the MacDonald Commission's number one priority should be to look at Newfoundland? Now, Mr.

Speaker, is the hon. gentleman aware that that conch tion, which is much worse in Newfoundland than it should be - we real Lze ther are bad conditLons, poor Limes, all over the world - but in Newfoundland the situnti)n is worse than it should be as a result of the Vinci of aLt i Lude and the ki ad of answer we just heard from I lie hen . goat lemon. Is the hon. qen tlemin aware of that? And is the lion. gentleman aware, Mr.

Speaker, if he is not aware he w i 1 1 be aware in another clay or Sc) whcri the Youth Corruniss ion tables their report on unemployment amongst youth in this Province, that it will knock the hon. gentleman's eyeballs out, in the hon. gentleman aware that all of this is brought about because of a very poor political climate and atmosphere brought abouL because of poor relat ions between 6042

November 30, 1982 Tape la. 2875 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: this Province and the dovornment of Canada and the lad of a negotiated agreement on the offshore? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) The hon. President of the Council MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, now that I have beaten the hon. Leader of Lle Opposit is (Mr. Niiry into calm submission - SOME HON. MEMBERS: leer, hear MR. MARSHALL: - I would assume, knowing Senator Doody, that he is awar of the fragile economy we have in this Province, but knowing enator Doody I know he shares with us the reasons for it. MR. SIMMS: What are the reasons? MR.

MARSHALL: And the reasons for it are twelve years of Trudeau rule in Canada which has very much aft ected this Province because, even though we are in a recession, it has seen Canada plunged as one of the trading nations in the world. MR. SIMMS : That in right. MR. MARSHALL: And we, as one of the exporters of primary resources in Canada, are suffering as a result of it. MR. SIMMS: Right on. MR. MARSHALL: So, Mr.

Speaker, we realize the fragileness of the ecol amy but this fragileness of the economy, , despit a what I lie hon. rjent oman there oppo; i t:e u I go us to do, it is not gong to result in us giving away the resources which belong to the people of this Province for Tenerations yet to com( qP 6043

November 30 1982 Tape 2876 EC - 1 MR. N13RSHALL: So I say 'hat, and I also want to repeat - becai.se we are coming near the end of the Question Period - very calmly to the hon. gentleman, and he can copy it sown and give the message, if he S wishes, to his federal counterparts and colleagues, that this government is willing to negotiate,at any given time, provided the federal government indicates that it is prepared to address itselr to real joint management and meaningful revenue sharing in accordance with the principles as set down in our agreement of January 25th which, Mr.

Speaker, represents the only joint management and revenue regime, realistic one, that has been advanced. MR. SIMMS: Right on! MR. MARSHALL: And once he convinces the hon. gentlemen that the proposals that they are attempting to foist on the people of Newfound3 and just will not wash, because it is not joint managorrent, it is total federal control, it is not, Mr. Speaker, meaningful revenue sharing at all, because it does nothing for the people of Newfoundland in any meanjngful way by way of giving them the right to attain equality with their average fellow Canadians. SOMEHON. MEMBERS: hear, hear! MR.

NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): A final question, the hon. the Leader of the Opporition. MR. NEARY: A final supplementary, El Mr. Speaker. I will make this one a double-barrelled one. Is the hon. gentleman aware that an oil drilling rig that was destined for the Grand Banks a couple of weeks ago was diverted 6044

November 30, 1982 Tape 2876 EC 2 MR. NEARY: to Sable Island off Nova Scotia because we havo no agreement on the offshore? And now that I have the hon. gentleman calmed down, Mr. Speakci - I have him calmed down a little bit and he is no longer hysterical I will go back to a question that I asked earlier. Now that he is calmed down, could he tell us how the parties now jet back - it seems to me in that last answer that the hon. gentleman gave that it is possible for the Province to get back to the bargaining table and Ottawa get back to the bargaining table. But how can this be brought about now?

I mean, you just cannot do it thrnugh the media or just taking pot shots at each other, 1,1r. Chretien and the hon. gentleman. Mr. Chretien, by the way, has been a thorough gentleman about all of this. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. NEARY: The hon. the member for Labrador West should go down and try to save that bank down there, never mind sneering and jnering in this House about a serious matter. 6045

November 30, 1982 Tape 277 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: How now do they get back to the bargaining table? Somebody has to pick up a telephone or Telex a message or writ( a letter. How can they be brought about? Will the hon gentleman go down to his office, pick up his telephone, say, 'Look, Mr. Chretien, come down and let us spend a couple of days at this and see if we can make any progress Would that not be the proper .ittitude, responsible attitude for the hon. gentleman to take? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hen. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, in accordance with my attempt not to let any questions of the Opposition go unanswered,I woul.d say first of all with respect to the oil rig, it is a matter 01 common knowledge, it was in the paper, that it has not been diverted to Nova Scotia because there is no agreement. It has alway-; been intended that it would go to Nova Scotia for a period of about four or five months. Originally it was to have come to the Hibernia structure and then it was to go to Nova Scotia for some four or five iiionths. But instead of that it went to Nova -;cotia first for four or five months, and then it is cominq here.

So the rig in effect has been consigned to Newfoundland. I might say to the hon. gentleman too, he might be interested in thisalthough I do not think he is too interested in it becaise he is only interested in other things.. the Newfoundland regulations q are applyinq in large measure to that rig. Many young Newfound] anders are employed on it and will continue to be employed on it, purely and simply because of the fore- sight of this government in bringing Ln the regulations requirincj Newfoundland content. So I know he will be glad and/or maybe disappointud I do not know. I could RflL1R

November 30, 1982 Tape 2877 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: care less what his perception is to hear it. But it is a fact that the oil nj has not, as he misrepresents, been diverted from here beause there was no agreement. In fact it is coming here. How do the parties get back together? The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that everything that I have sail to the hon. gentleman, I might say it probably in a brief3r message, has gone to Mr. Chretien. Mr.

Chretien is fulIl.y awar of the situation of this Province and the Province's position with repect to the matter, that we are prepared to negotiate if they are prepared to address themselves to the principles of joint manaroment and revenue sharing and that it "as to be understood, when we talk about joint management,we do not mean federal control. When we talk about revenue sharing,we just do not mean that we take our equalization from our cwn resource out there and Ottawa takes everything else, forver and a day thereafter. As far as Mr. Chretien goes, you know, Pr. Chretien is a very easy person to talk to. Mr.

Lalond was a very easy person to talk to. Iverybody is a very easy person to talk to when one sits down and talks to them. But at the same time that does not mean that we can in any way recant from the position which is really a minimal position,that this government has taken to protect the interests of the people of this Province, and that is the position that we will continue to take forever and a day. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. SPEAKER (Russell The Question Period has p expired. 6047

S November 30, 1983 Tape 2877 NM - 3 PRESENTING REPORTS OF STAND]NG ANI SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hen. Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUN(: Mr. SI3aker, I aould like to table the Annual Report for the C. A. Pippy Prk Commission for the year 1981-82. A lot cf good informatLon there too, Sir. MR.çALLAN: CouLd we liave the roads programme too? MR. YOUNG: yes. ['hat is the roads programme. NO'IICE OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minisker of Justice. II;

Noverriber 30, 1982, Tape 2078, Page 1 -- aph MR._OTTENITEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I wiLl on tomorrow ark 1eave to introduce a bilL entitled, "An Act To Permit The Continuance In The Province Of Carino Company Limited. ORDER OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Oh, Mr. Speaker, you came on Orders of the Day quicker than I thought you would. Motion 2, Dill No. 74. On motion, that the house resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions relating to the imposition of a tax on insurance premiums, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE CHAIRMAN(A ylw Order, pleasc We ar discussing a resolution concerninj Bill No. 74, "An Act To Amend The Insurance Premiums Act, 1978". RESOLUTION "That it is expedient to bring in a measure to amnd The Insurance Premiums Tax Act, 1978." MR. CHAIRMAN: The hen, the Leader of the Opposition. NR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, yesterday when we were debating this bill I raised a few matters such as before the government startod increasing taxes they should have teen cutting expenditure, and [hat seems to be a very popular item with the general public.

Because everywhere I go, and I think my colleagues can verify this, it is brought to our attention, and threugh phone calls and letters and brown envelopes that are dropped in the mail,unsigned and signed, and all the information that is coming to us is that there are all kinds of examples of extravagance and waste, all kinds of e.<arriples where government could have cut expenditure befoc they started tncreesing taxes. 6049

November 30, 1982, Tape 2878, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: And this is true, Mr. Chairman. I indicated yesterday that anybody with a sharp pencil and a sharp eye can go through the estimates and they can whip out $20 million, $25 million, or $30 million, no rwoat, that wouhi not hurt a sinqie person 6050

November 30, 1982, Tape 2879, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: in this Province except, of course, the rich. It might hurt the rich. But yesterday, when the member for St. Mary's - The Capes(Mr. Hearn) was speaking, I think he indicated the government's position as far as the increases in taxes are concerned, when the hon. gentleman told us that poor people are not allowed Lo buy refriqerators or motor cars or flat irons or toilets for their houses or toilet paper. They are not allowed to buy ironing boards, they are not allowed to buy electric bulbs and electric fixtures for their houses.

They are i,ot allowed to have any of that, all they are allowed to do is spend their money on food, the hon. gentleman told us. They are not allowed to have television sets, th are not allowed to gel second-hand pianos or anything like that You have to classes of people in this Province, accordinq to the hon. gentleman, you have his class of people, that he was talking ibout, who can afford to pay the Lax, and you have the oIher class of people who only bui food anyway, buy food and children's clothes, that is a1 they spend their money on, the hon. gentleman toll us.

I sent for Ilansird today and I have it here in front of me, and I am going to have it Xeroxed and widely distributed in this Province; the hon. gentlemanwho was speaking for the administration, propping up the administration and supporting the adrninistration,tel ing the people of this Province on behalf of the gove nment that he supports, that poor people ale not allowed to have anything out of their money except food and children's clothing, that is aLl. And that is typical of the attitude of this administration.

And I challenged backbenchers on the government side of the House yesterday to get up and repeat what the hon. gentleman had said. Or are they too ashamed to get up and repeat 6fl5 1

November 30, 1982, Tape 2879, Page 2 -- apb 4R.NEARY: what the hon. gentleman said ibout the two classes 01 people in this Province? And where are the majority? I would think the majority are in the class of ordinary peopLe, M . Chairman. So I hink it was disgusting. What we heard in this House yesterday was absolutely disgustinci and typical of the attitude of this government. Now, Mr. Chairman, let me say this, that we have a pretty serious situation in this Provinne at the present time.

Our economy is in a mess, the finances of the Province are in a mess, and I do not believe, really, that hon. members on the opposite side realize how serious the situation i.s in thin Province. WI have hildren qoing to school today in this Province with no lunhes and no money to buy a lunch. MR._HICKEY: Produce I he facts. MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I can produce the facts. I heard a sermon in church on Sunday morning in the hon. gentleman's own district; he should have been there if he wanted to get the facts. MR. HICKEY: I cannot help it if I do not go to the same church the hon. gentleman goes to. 6052

November 30, 1982 Tape 2880 P1< - 1 MR. NEARY: Well, the hon. rentleman asked me to produce the facts. MR. HICKEY: There are two or three down there, I am not the kind to go to church to be seen. MR. NEARY: Oh, 1 see Is that so? Is that so? MR. HICKEY: I go to church when I want to go. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman should have been there to hear what that priest had to say - MR. HICKEY: I do not need any priest to tell me about the ioor. MR. NEARY: That there are children going to school hungry. MR. HICKEY: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN Aylward): A point of order, the hon.

Minister of Social Ser ices. MR. IJICKEY: If the hon. gentleman knows of children in this Province who are going to school hungry, without any lunch, he should produc the flares, the addresses, and we will look into it. If not, he should keep his mouth shut and stop spreading the gloom and doom and untruths. SOME HON. MEMBkRS: Hear, hear MR. NEARY: That is not a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. HICKEY: lie has gotten away with that for too many years. MR. CHAIRMAN: I rule there is no point of order. It is rierely a iifference of opinion between hon. members. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, it is funny how the hon. gentleman take; everything as a personal affront. The hon. gentlman much have his head buried in 6053

November 10, 1982 Tape ;880 PK - 2 d I MR. NEAR?: the sanc,like the rest of his co1leagus, if he does not realize that there are children going io school today in this Provinceriherc are children been kept home today because there is no food in the house. MR. IIICKEY: if it is i is neglect. MR. NEAR?: Oh,it is ng1ect. Oh,I see. They do not know how to manage now. M . Chairman, the hon. gentleman just whipped $35 a ironth off the assistance of people who - MR. IiICKEY: Off the people who can afford it. MR. NEAR?: Oh,I see They can afford it. MR. IIICKEY: Yes. MR. NEARY: Wefl,I wish - MR.

HICKEY: Look at thir incomes MR. NEAR?: - I had soile of the letters here with me from people that the hon. gentleman says can afford it. I wrote the hon. gentleman two letters this morning about - MR. HICKEY: Is that riiht? MR. NEARY: - cases. nd when he reads these letters ,let him come up here and make 1 statement in the House that people can afford i Mr. Chairm n, the fact of the matter is that I am inclined to believ that priest. I think he should know when the :chool comes u der his jurisdiction. lie is also a member of the St.

Johns :;chool Board, and categorically nude the sLatement,overrLght 300 or 400 people, that children are going to schol hungry, children are going to school poorly clad, chilthen are going to school with nothing on their feet, that is ho serious the situation is in this Province. And only a governuicnt and a minister who is insensit[vc to the needs of the )eoplC' would say otherwise. Mr. Chairmri, we are in the midst of a very serious depression in this Thovince brought about 6054

November 30, 1982 Tape 2880 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: mainly by the attitude and the policies of this administration. MR. MICKEY: Wrong. Untrue again. MR.NEARY: I would be the first to admit that times are harl all over North America and all over the world, but, Mr. Chairman, but , but, but - and let the hon. gentleman turn up his hearing aid - but the situation is much worse in this Province than it thould be. It is much worse than it should be, Mr. Chairrian. The situation in this Province is much worse than it should be because of the policies and because of the neglect of this adminitration.

And hon. gentlemen will find out this week when the Youth Commission tables their report on unemployment amongsi young people in this Province. F 6055

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 2 181 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: The figure; are alairning. MR. IIICKEY: If you had not give;; away the Churchill we would be better off. MR. NEARY: Oh, Mr. Ch;irman - MR. HICKEY: If we had ; better deal on the fishery we would be bettor off. NEARY: - remember the old ;aying about it your aunt had something or other she would by your uncle. MR. TOBIN: Ye;; cannot take what the minister is saying. MR. NEARY: The hol. gentleman should not take it as a personal afront becaus what I am saying, Mr. Chairman, is general knowledge in tiis Province. And we have children going to school hungry.

We have children who are kept home because there is no money for lunch, there is no bread in the house to give them a lunch. And tb hoe. gentleman can deny it all he wants. And, the hon. gentleman's thirteen policy changes that he made - iow I think there are ten or eleven, he whipped off three or four - re cruel and callous and are creating a tremen(lous hardship )fl people. MR. HICKEY: Wronq Wreng. MR. NEARY: I am wrong. I see. The people who write us are wrong. MR. IIICKEY: I am a foriier social worker. MR.

NEARY: Oh, yes, h; knows, lie knows as much about social work now as my little log and that is not very much. MR. HICKEY: I know as much as the hon. gentleman does. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairm.;n, the hen, gentleman should not take it as a personal affront. The statements that I am making are about the general condi ion, the general condition of the economy. And, Mr. Chairman, people in authority, who are the administration , are not lilting a finger 6056

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 2881 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: to do anythincj about it. And during the Question Period today when I asked some pretty penetrating questions, some hard-hittine questions of the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshail),it is too bad we did noL have television in thL; House or we would have seen why we are in such a mess thai we are in when we saw the answers S given by the minister. If you examine the words, Mr. Chairman, they were words that could only bring on a war. There was not a conciliatory remark, note, air in whaL the hon. gentleman had to say.

So I can only assume that it is a deliberate policy on the part of the government to continue warring with Ottawa. They are not interested in an offshore agreement, they want to have it for an issue in the next election. They want to downgrade the I isheries, they do not want an of Ishore agreement, they want to use those issues in the next federal election. And that is the game they are playing, Mr. Chairman, because the lack of an offshore agreement is what is creatinq the poor industrial cli nate in this Province at the present time.

A poor politica' climate is what is driving business and industry away from Newfoundland over to Halifax, Nova Scotia, Mr. Chairman. nd why do they continue to bury their heads in the sand? Mr. Chairman, this crowd were elected to govern this 'rovinco and they are If 4 6057

November 30, 1982 Tape 2882 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: not doing it. Thcy were given a mandate to negotiate an offshore greernent - they are not doing it, and they are dragging down every industry in Newfoundland. The fishery is go e. S MR. TOI3IN: You said 'Let the fish companies (JO. MR. NEARY: I wish s nobody wculd let the hon. gentleman go. MR. TOBINi The j:eoplc wil keep ic here for a long time. MR. NEARY: The hon. qentlemar should get himself a little hearing aid too and perhaps he might hear what is being said.

MR._IJICKEY: The hon. gentleman should be careful because one of his le(js torn' rrow might drop off. lIe should not be making fun of the disabled. MR. NEAR?: Well, I ealize I should not be making fun of the member for Bur n. I retlize that, Mr. Chairman. I realize he is disab ed, but I would not say he is physical ly disabled, I wo id say it is something else. Mr. Chai man, the fact of the matter is that it is the lack of an offshore agreement that is causing - MR._TOBIN: Is that what you said? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, could I have silence? MR.

CIjMAN (Al.'ard) : Order, pIoase Order The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. NEAR?: Think yoi. I will have another go as :;oon as one of my col1eques as spoken. MR. lIJ('KEY: Mr. Chai ma. MR._ChAIRMAN: The hen. the Minister of Social Services.

November 30, 1982 Tape 2882 EC -- 2 MR._HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, I am not going to delay the I-louse. I just want to have a couple of words. The hon. gentleman is usually easy to listen to )ecauee one takes him with two grains I of salt, except tolay ii is a bit difficult to listen to him. And, of course, when one offers any opposition at all or disagreement to hat the hon. gentleman says, his usual cop-out is that the hon. minisber is taking it personally.

Well, I wai t to assure him that I do not take anything the hon. ;entl man says personally because really I 10 not Lhink the hon. gentleman knows what he is saying most of the time. So ii would be afully unfair for me to take personally or seriously anything he says. The hon. gentleman foi ets ho things that he utters from day to day. Just last week or the week before, I think it was the week before, the hon. gentle- man said that his )est odvice to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) was t let the companics go bottom up and pick up the piece and then try to Eort it out.

Today he is concerned b cause some companies are going bottom up. Now, the hon. gentleman should make up his mind on what he wants. And, as Leader of the Opposition for the Province, he should have his policis a little more firm and better estab1 shed than that. He talks about the poor. My advice to the hon. gentleman is that anyone who attempts to stay in this iious * 6 15 9

November 30, 1982 Tape t883 NM - 1 MR. HICKEY: or to achieve ;uccess in public life on the backs of the poor usually jets thrir message loud and cloar. They do not usually Last to) long. Now the hon. (1,3ntleman has been around a long time. If he plans on 3taying around much longer I suggest he change his tune. Bcause h( , is not the only one, Mr. Chairman, with compassion for he poor. He is not the only one who cores about the po r. As a matter of fact,the track record of former ilministrations, with which the hon. gentleman was so closel connected, demonstrated clearly their lack of concern for the poor.

And the hon. gentleman should not forget thai . When he talked about children goinq to school hungry, or il.1 -clad, it is a fact of life, Mr. Chairman, that in the most )rosperous society children go to school ill-did. Inded children probably go to school hungry. But it is not to be assumed that assistance is not provided or there to bi had. That is what I meant when I said neglect. It is not anything new that some children in our society in this Provinceno difierent than any other, are neglected even under the best conditions.

When there is plenty of employment, when thero are prosperous timos,unfortunately little children tire negleited and not properly cared for. But Mr. Chairman, that is not the vein in which the hoii. qentleman talked about children being hungry and ill-clad, lie talked about them as though this administration was turning its back on the little ch ldren of the Province and the poor of the Province. And we all know such is not the casi. 6060

November 30, 1982 Tape 2883 NM - 2 MR. HICKEY: My remarks, Mr. Chairman, were simply to mean that any family in need of assistance knows full well, thire are fifty-two Social Services offices speuning this Province, and notwithstanding their means, their income, their circumstances, or anything else, there has never been a policy and there never will, I suspect, as long as this administration stays in office, where no matter what the income, what the cirumstances, when need iu established, when need is shown, that need will be mat, noLwithstanding rules, regulations or laws.

And that happen:; to be the policy of this department and this government. So the hon. gentleman really, as I said when I started, s playing on words, and is attemptinq to create something out of nothing which really does not exist. If he is talking ibout taxes ,which this bill is all about, Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman also should be well acquainted with the fact that,as some people say, the poor we will aiweys have with Un, and majbe we will. MR. STAGG: Not the hon. gentleman though. MR. NEARY: There is also another saying that there ire two things we are all sure of, death and taxe:;. S * 6061

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 2884 MJ - 1 MR. T. HICKEY: trying to be so hypocritical of sayinq one thin when he knows the differenceand indeed when he moans something else. The least he can be in these troubled times is to he forthright with our people and level with thorn and not try to hoodwink thorn by mixincj his words. Mr. Chairman, no on is happy about bringing in a measure of taxation in this Proviiice, least of all myself. I am too well acquainted with how the poor of this Province are finding it difficult to manage. What are we to do?

Our every effort to create omploynierit, our every effort to find a;reement with the federal government fails because we have a government that is insensitive or indifferent,to be charitible to them, to our needs, our rights and our potential. The federal government seems helibent on not giving us a chance in his Province to find our way and to become a have province, too interested in having it all.and yet the hon. gentlemin,as leader of his party at the moment, would try to con 'ince our people that we on this side, we in the govern ent, are the greedy ones. Mr.

Chairni in, he does not have to have to look too far to find out wh the greedy ones are. The greedy ones are in Ottawa,who want their cake and they want to eat it too. S MR. S. NEARY: Shame, she el MR. HICKEY: Oh, the ho, gentleman is saying, 'Shame', Mr. Chairman because of the hand-outs that they give us. MR. J. DINN: lie is defe ding his buddies. MR._HICKEY: The hon. p ntleman is shouting, 'Shame', because I suppose they will t 11 us about th equalization payments and the transfei payments. The people 6062

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 2884 MJ - 2 MR. T. HICKLY: in this Province do not want handouts, not when thy haverosouices to develop to become independent and self-i 3liant on their own terms. They a do not want the hando bs at all. So, Mr. Chairman, I suggest a the hon. genLiernan, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. S. Neary) shou]J at least consider making a New Year's resolution when it cones New Year time. He should maybe resolve it in his own mind to level with the people of the Province while he iolds that iiportant position of Leader of th Oppositi )n. 6063

November 30, 1912 Tape 2885 EC - 1 MR. HICKEY: I read last week that he has some aspirations of becoming Premier, and the only thing I can say to him is that we are improving (lay by day, month by month the whole situation for senior citizens. I assure the hon. gentleman, if he is goin to be Premier of this Province he is going to be long gale beyond the age of being a senior citizen. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREn: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIPJ1AN (Aylward) : The hon. the member for Torngat Mcuntaii 5. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Chairman, I have to say a few words on this bill, especial'y after the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Flickey) just inished qLving the Leader of the Opposition a tongue- Lashing. I am surprised that he is leaving, because he is the same minister who in a day or so is going to close down the Social Services office in 'lay Bulls. MR. TULK: That is not right MR. WARREN: The ninister who Is planning to dana down the Social Services olfice in Bay Bulls is the same minister who is talkini about caring about the people on social e1fare. Ilell, where is the minister now?

In his comments, the minister was saying that he has fi fty-two of fices scuttered throughout the Province and all of a sudden, after he 0 gets up and makes his ten minute spiel about how this government is treating the people, he is planning to close down an of lice and the people in Bay nulls, Petty Harbour and all along the SoLhern Shore are going to hive to go either to Tranaasev or to St.John's if they wai,t to visit a social welfare office. 6064

November 30, 1982 Tape 1885 EC - 2 MR. WARRI;N: Now, this is where the minister has decidad to cut. If anyone wants to go and see a social worker, if anyone wants to go and pick up his monthly income from the Social Services Department, where he does not have any work, has no alternative, he has to get a car, a taxi and drive from Petty Harbour or Bay Bulls and either go to TreflaS3ey or come down here on Harvey Road in St. John's, I would venture to say thirty miles one way or the other, and it is going to cost individuals getting social assistance at least $15 or $20 in taxi fares. Now, Mr.

Chairman, this is the same minister who just got up and defended his department. If the minister is so concerned about his department, has he called for an inquiry into this case? MR. MARSIIT\LL: On a point ol order, Mr. Chaii nan. MR. CHAILMAN (Aylward) : On a point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: I did not listen, because I was not in the House when the minister was speakmabut my understandinq of the bill now before the Committee is one that concerns the Insurance Tax Act and this bit seems to be concerning now the minister's office and has nothing to do wiLh the bill. MR.

NEAR'!: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEAR'!: Mr. Chairman, no wonder the hon. the dovernmenb house Leader (Mr. Marshall) would smile when he took his seat. He noticed that anybody who knows the rules of this House was ouLside1 6065

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 2186 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: the experienced people were outside when he made his point of order. He th)ught he could sneak it through, Your honour. We are debating a money bill, Mr. Chairman, and under a money bill it is almost the same as bringing a budget into the House. Under money bills you have a wide-ranging debate especially when you are increasing taxes. The hon. gentLeman can yawn and smile because he knows, Mr. Chairman - MR. MARSHALL: It is a money bill. MR. NEARY: - it is a iiioney bill, that is right. Now he admits it:, so there is no point f order, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : To that point of order, I rule there is no point of order. The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, a couple of the other things that the hon. minister sad, he said, 'The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Near') is attacking the poor'. Well, Mr. Chairman, where was the Minister of Social Services (Mr. lli.ckey) yesterday - I wilt quote ftm Ilansard what the hen. niembe for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hearn) said about the poor. I will quote, Mr.

Chairman, here on Tape No. 2851, the hon. member says: "On good; that are taxable, hardware, furniture, etc.1hew many television sets, cars, refrigerarors, etc. do people on fixed incomes buy? Very, very few.' Now listen to the next part. 'tonsequently, little or no efect. Adult clothing, acybody who is getting $5,000 or $6,001) a your or less does no. spend much money on adult clothing." bow, Mr. Chairman, what do till the people in this Province do, the 63 per cent wh are below the poverty line in this Irovine, what do hose 63 per cent do for aduit clothing? Dc they go and steaL?

Do they go and borrow and beg and evc rythiuq else? Tb ty have to go and buy it, Mr. Chairman. So if you are t:alkin i about tin poor people) if you are talking abcut below the average income they are 63 per cent of the jeople, Mr. Speakei. So let us not attack 6066

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 286 SD - 2 MR. WARREN: the poor, lot us look at the comment from your hon. colleague. It is the HiinisLcr who is attacking the poor by closing down an office in By Bulls. MR. WALSH: has thit of ice been closet down yot? 4 MR. WARREN: IL is joi.nq Lu he closed down. SOME HON. MEMUERS: Oh, oh. 4 MR. WARREN: But hold on now, Here is the reason why it is not qcinq to be closed down 1 H is becouno we are letting the people know - here is another example of the minister trying to use his restraint programme, Mr. Chairman. And, Mr.

Chairman, where was 1he minister when the Supreme Court ind the Nowfnundltnd Court of Appeal handed down a decision about a foster child in Gander? Where was the rninisLer then? Has the minister let the Director of Child Welfure go unscathed, Mr. Chairman? Has there been a public inquiry called into this whole ease? No, Mr. Chairmen, the minister is more concerned about getting up in the House II Assembli and saying that the Loader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is attacking the poor. 4 6067

November 30, 1982, Tape 2887, Page L -- apb MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, I suggest ti-tat this government hs attacked the poor; this qovernment has really brought in those bills to attack the poor. As the hon. membei said yesterday - I agree with part of his statement - the rich people can afford it. MR. HICKEY: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMA?1ylward): Order, please A point of order, the hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR._HICKEY: I de not want the people in the coitmunity the hon. gentleman ieferred to to he alarmed.

Hon. gentlemen oposite seem to take great pride out of alarming people unnecessarily. There is no decision made on the offic the hon. gentleman refers to. Whatever kind of a source of information he has, or what sources he has, he should fire them like the people who write his questions, as I siqqestod to him a couple 01 weeks ago. They are about as accurate as his questions. MR._IIODDER: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. : _CHAIRMAN: To the point of order, the hon. the member for Port au Port. MR._HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, that is not a point of order, that is just a deliberate attempt by the Minister of Social Services(Mr. Ehickey) to harass the member for Torngat Mountain(Mr. Warren) when he is trying to speak. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order,I rule there is not point of order, The hon. minister just took the opportunity to exp ain the situation in his department. The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR._WARREN: Mr. Chairman, on October 1 - talk about a minister iLttacking the poor - the Director LIIWII]

November 30, 1982, Tape 2887, Page 2 -- apb MR. WARRFiJ: of Social Assistance brought in a policy, No.53-82, and made thirteen changes in the Social Assistance Act. And, Mr. Chairman, the minister got up in the House the rollowing day and, in fact, Hansard can verify this, said three of those policy changes would not come into effect. In actual fact the minister mislel the house becauce they are in effect. I have been talkin to social workers in this Province and they are in ef ect. MR._HICKEY: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN(Aylward)-. Order, please! MR.

HICKI:Y: The lion. qentleman cannot gi.ve erroneoui-i informat ion. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! The hon. (hair heard references by the hon. the member for Toragat Mountains(Mr. Warren) that the lion, minister misled the Huse. I believe that is unparlianiontary. I wou'd ask the hon. member to withdraw. MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, if it is agreeable to the House,I withdraw those remarks. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: However, the minister did not tell the whole truth in the House, Mr. Chairman. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairm,n, a point of order. MR.

CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the hon. the Minister of Social :ervices. MR._MICKEY: Mr. Chairm.in, I have to insist that the lion, gentleman withdraw,retract without qualification that comment. I an an expert on what happens to people who call people liars in the House. Let him check Hansard on that. MR. WARREN: No, my son No,, no, no! MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order - cnr' uuu I

November 30, 1982, Tape 2887, Page 3 -- apb MR. HICKEY: Withdraw t without qualification. MR. WARREN: No, no, I will not withdraw for you. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairtian, I stand on my rights, I insist the hon. gentleman withdraw his remark without qualification. I did not t 11 half the truth 1 I told the whole truth nothing but t ie truth, so help me God. MR.WALSI!: withdraw! MR. HICKEY: Now, is that enough for the hon. gentleman? MR. WARREN: No, I am not going to withdraw. MR. CHAIRMAN(Aylward) Order, please! The hon. gentleman for Torngat Mountains(Mr.

Warren) withdrew the iinparliamentary statement that the Chair heard ,arid I rule tha the point of order raised by the hon. the Minister of hocial Services (Mr. Hickey) is merely a difference of opinion. The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR._WARREN: Mr. Chairman, those policy changes - I 6070

November 30, 1982 Tape 2888 PK - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN d): Order, p1ease The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. WARREN: Oh my goodness gracious MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member ror Stephenville. MR. STAGG: Well, since I only have ten minutes I might as well get into this very quickly.

This is a money bill and as we all know the debate on money bills is wide-ranging, 4 and I will r:turn to a familiar theme that I have developed with some success in the House of AssembLy, at least it usually succeeds in getting under the skin of the hon. members opposite, whose skins are aotoriously thin, when the type of representation that they are giving this Irovince is pointed out. Now I will just say in my openinq remarks,Why do we have this bill before the House?

Obviously any government that is concerned about ru-election and is concerned generally about its lonevity is not going to willy-nilly bring in bills that tax people and get money from thernespecially when times are bad. r it is not something that is done without some provocation. Now what is the provocation in this case? Well, the 1.)rovocation is there is a general economic downturn in the econocty of Canada and of the worlcl,and NewLouridland has not leen insulated from it. Need that be so, Mr. Chairman? N ed tht be so? No. The answer to that question is no, it need not be so.

You rccall that back in the middle 1970s when there was i recession in Canada,one province in Canada rode high, wid , and handsome over that recession, that province,of course, he rig the Province of Alberta, at a time when other provinces n Canada were struggling along, raising taxes, and having deficit budgets or having restrictions on their ability to cpend. The Province of Alberta was building up a heritage fund. Why was it building upa heritage fund? 6071

November 30, 1982 Tape H•388 PK - 2 MR. STAGG: Because it had access to, it had control over, and was wisely developinc, its resources1primarily its oil resources. What is the situation here in Newfoundland? oii,the situation here in Newfoundlan is that in 1949 ihen we joined Confederation our per c pita was 46 per cent of the national average, and orne thirty-two or thirty-three years later w are struggling around 50 per cent ()f the national avoraqe. So we have decided that we need a better deal from the Can Ldian Governi ont. They are the only people who can give us the better Teal.

And unfortunately all we have been subjected to is some long range propaganda type argumentation from a couple of gei tlemen who obviously know better but have very little feelii g for the intellect and the intelligence of Newfoundlander When you se Mr. Chretien coming down 6072

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 2889 MJ - 1 Halifax and inking the3e obnoxious statements to Newfoundlander - he is not coming down to talk to Nova Scotians, Mr. Chairman, he is comincj down to talk to Newfoundlanders- and how do tb- Liberal in Nova Scotia react? Well, 4 Mr. Chairman, as I hav said befor, the Liberals in Nova Scotia are leid by one John Buchann, that is the Liberals in Nova Scotia1 I have said it before and I will say it again that they have a party in Nova Scotia that ostensibly goes by the Progressive Conservative or Tory label but they are not Tories, Mr. Chairmin, they are Liberals.

And what do the Tories or the PCs in Nva Scotia siy Well, unfortunately, they go by a iberal stripe. I Wa:; not prepared to say that the Liberals n Nova Scotia were a]-An to ourselves here in Newfoundland ecause I do not know very much about thorn. But you only •iave to look at yesterdays 9T±ram and see that Wr. Cameron, Mr. A. M. Sandy Cameron, who I predict one day will be Premier if Nova Scotia he says that the Liberal5 in Nova Scotia, masquerading as Tories, 'am giving away the farm. It may be an unfortunate choice of words,but they are giving away their natural resources.

The Liberals in Nova Scotia,led by Mr. Buchanan, have their soul mates across the floor. There used to be twenty-one Df them, thereabouts,back in 1978-79, then they took a small plunge down to eighteen, and then the hit the abyss in April of this year when they went down to eight.And why have they gone down, Mr. Chairman? Because they are the party who believe that by subterfuge, sleight of hand and by insulting the intelligence of people that they can get elected. Well, I do not know when they are going to learn. I would ask hon. gentleman opposite, especially the member for FoiEo (Mr. B.

Tulk) who I think is qoing to leap to his feet a I tor I s1eak - he said if I vAnild soak, ho wuld nak - 6073

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 289 MJ - 2 MR. B. TULK. Oh, I should not have told you. MR. F. STAGG: - well, I would like lo ask him to do two things. MR. L. SIMMS: When you t.lk they iend to leave. MR. STAGG: Well, that is true, they have taken an early exit. I do not want to digress to divert myself. here is something that I wish the hon. member would read - I know he has not read it- it i an analysis of the impact of a Nova Scotia type offshore a rreement on Newfoundland.

I would say that he hs not read it beciuse he does not want to read it,.but I would like for hi n to read that, thu analysis of it, and al:;o read perhas for the first time the proposal that Newfoundland put for trd on January 25, 1982, almost a year ago,which hon. jentlemen )pposite have never said whether they agree with it or not. They have never said whether they agree with it or not,and it is a most Canadian proposal . It is the proposal that the Premier waved around on the night of the debate,that Mr. Stirling had not read and did not want to read. "r.

Stii lino paid the price Mr. htirlinq is now bnck selling insurence . Maybe the insurance bill is apropos of this kind of argument- Mr. Stirling is back selling insurince,we are in here dealing with an insurance tax. Mr. Stirlinci is selling insurance again, larqey because he felt that he did not have to read proposals of that type. 6074

November 30, 1982 Tape 2890 INM - I MR. STAGG: Hon. qontlemen Opposite have never said who Lher they agree wi h it or not. 1\rid I would submit that if hon. gentlemen opposite were to come foursquare at our side, Stind with us, not behind us with knives to the back, but tand foursquare and say without ecluivocatiou that they igree wholeheartedly with 4 this most Canadian proposal put forwa d on January 25th., or, alternatively, if they might say that it does not go far enough.. 1rhaps it does not go far enough. Perhaps they might say that the Premier and the golernment are giving away the resources.

That would be a actic that I would use if I were over there, gentlemen. I would say that the Premier has been far too lenient and is will i.ng to give away far far too much. That is a tactic lion. ientlemen should develop. But you cannot dcve]op something if you do not read it. If you do not know what is there you cannot develop it.

And hon. gentlemen feel, they feel that bcause the people are suffering - and peopile are suffering, no one denies that they are suifering nt this time going into one of the worst Winters that we will have, that we are raising taxes, make no mistake about it, it is not something that we want to do but hon. gentlemen think that by pointing that Out, and stating it and restating it that perversely that the people will vote for them. Well,hon. gentlemen have put nothing forward, zilch forward to thc people of this Province that would indicate that they cre in any way ready for power.

The only way they ai2 ready ior power is because they would like to get on airplanes anc travel around the world and do that kind of thing that is asociated with power. But they are not ready for I he mattei s of principle that are involved with the taking of power. 6075

November 30, 1982 Tape 2890 NM - 2 MR. STAGG: So I wu1d suggest to hon. gentlemen that they should address themselves to the big issues in this Province, and the big Lssue at the present time is the offshore. It is there. It is something that they have to discuss. I wou]. I like for the member for, Fogo (Mr. lulk) to address himself to the minister as defined in the Nova Scotia agreement. Do you know who the minister is? In acts you have the minister defined in such and-such a way, wcU, here is who the minister is, 4 6076

November 30, 1982 Tape 2891 NM - 1 MR. STAGG: "The Board shall be responsible to and shall act under the authority of the Federal Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources, hereinafter called the minister." You know the minister who never appears ii the Nova Scotia a freement, the minister whose name is never mentioned, he does not exist, it is the MLnister of Energy, if they have one in Nova Scotia. He does not exist as far as the Nova Scotia agreement i; conceroed. Now,I would submit, Mr.

Chairman, that if we had an agreement signed along the lines of our January 25th., 1982 proposal, number one, it is unlik 'ly that we would have had an election this year. it is quite possible that we would not have had an election. That issue tould not have presented it self and the people would not hive been asked to make a d(cision as they were asked. And Lhey responded, of course,izi the way that they did, And, from tho purely political, partisan point of view it was a good thint for the party.

But ft wan a most unnecessary thinc1, becaw;e if there had been an agreement we could have merrily gon along aid defeated hon. enticmen in a year or so's tiim'. I mea i,it was inevitable that hon. gentlemen were going lo be defoated, we just would have delayed it somewhat mo -e, and t iey would have had a I Lttle bit more money into Lheir pen.;ions and so on. So I would like for hon. gentlemen opposite to address themselves to the real question, Why are tax( s being raised? Why are taxes being raised? Not the fact thrt it is joirig to hurt peope. we all know it is going to hurt people.

But to get righL down at the grass roots level and say, Why is it being done? It is being done because 6077

November 30, 1982 Tape 2891 NM - 2 MR. STAGG: of the dillydallying and the inflexibility and the outright ccnternpt that the Liberals in Ottawa - and make no mistake about it, the PCs in Nova Scotia re Liberals, but the Liberals in Ottawa are Liberals, and hon. gentlerten opposite identify with them. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylwajd): Order, please: The hcri. gentleman's time has elapsed. MR. STAGG: Thank /ou, Mr. Chairman. I will have another go at it a little while I.ater. Are yo i going to talk about this, or what? MR. TULK: Sit don. Sit down. Sit down now and be good. SjLi down and behave yourself. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR._STAGG: Are ycu going to talk about this? MR. WARREN: Sit dcqn, boy. MR. STAGG: Give tFle hon. qentleman a copy of it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Fogo. MR. BUTT: You are gettinq uptight. MR. TULK: No, I am not. MB. TOBIN: He is like the world according to Garfield, he is geti mg uptight. MR. WARREN: Sit down and listen, lay. MP._TULK: Mr. Chairman, I wafit to speak to this bill - MR. STAGG: If it had a tongue it would speak back at you. 6078

November 30, 1982 Tape 291 NM - 3 MR. TULK: Now, Mr. Chairman, I listened to the chal1enge, would the Chairman ask him to listen to the answer. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylwar[) : Order, please MR. STAGG: I am witing with bated breaLh. 6079

November 30, 1982 Tape 892 PM - 1 MR. TULK: I am surprised that he is breathing, he is not usually unless the Premier tells him ti. Mr. Chairman, on matters of principle - e are asked over on this side to puak on matters of pr incilie On this liii we have been challenged to speak and to state what our position is on the offshore. Well, Mr. Chairman, as I lo k at the present position - MR. STAGG: What is your posilion on the proposal? MR. TULK: As I look at the piasent position - MR. NODDER: Do not listen to iim! MR. TULK: Mr. Chaii man, can I have the hon. Yahoo for Stephenvillc (Mr. Stagq) be quiet? MR.

CHAIRMAN (Aylward) Order, please! MR. TULK: As I look at the present position of the provincial government , of the P.C. Tories, I want to inform the hon. member for Stephenville that they have changed their position. Their posit ion is not the same as it was before - there is a newspaper that the P.C. Party put out dated August 28, 1980, a piece of propzijanda, in which they changed, they changed their position, I'r. Chairman, they changed their position from one of outright owr rship, outright control to whose position? MR. WARREN: The membe for Baii Verte (Mr. Rideout) changed their minds. MR.

TULK: Whose position, Mr. Chairman? Whose position did the change to? Let me ask them that question? it is not an unknown pcsitioii that the gentleman is putting out of him over there, it is our position. MR. Sl'AGG: It is?

November 30, 1982 MR. TULK: MR. STAGG: MR. TULK: that is our p sition. and always hat; been. clear. Tape 28i2 P1< - 2 The Liberal position. Why do you not read it? Joint management and revenue sharinq It was before August 28, 1980,is now o would the hon. gentleman get that 14 But, Mr. Chairman, he has a problem. The member foi Stephen"ille (Mr. St.tgg) has a problem and his problem is this, that he is trying to worm his way into the Cabinet on that side, he wants to be in power. He wants to be in Cabinet, So what is he doing?

If the Premier acts like a yo-yo and is up and down, changes his position for political puriscs,then the member for Stephenville is going to follow. ha is acting blind in this, Fr. Chairman. lie is like a fountain spouting forth all of the time. Now, Mr. Chairman,he asked why taxes are being raised. And that is whit the principle is in this hill, to raise taxe. It is the same bill,basicaily, the same principle as yestrday's 1 per cent increase, to 12 per cent.in the SSA in this Province. Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Social Services (Mr.

Ihickey) , let us deal with what he said, the man who should be terribly concerned about the poor in this Province. AN HON. MEMBET: It is only wBat you read into it. MR. TULK: Well, he said the taxes he stated an obvious reason why the government has raised taxes. There are terrible economic conditions in this Province, he said. 6001

November 30, 1982 Tape No.28' 3 SD - 1 MR. TULK: And he askd for some facts, he asked the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) to produce facts that people are hungry in this Province. Well,I will take the minister, at my expnse.iny time he 'ants to go, and show hini two families in this Province, in th same community, that this year had to have something doie that has not happened in the Fogo district since the Great Deiression, and that, Mr.

Chairman, was simply this: Two families, I can show him two families, at least two and probably more, where their neighbours because th minister's depaitment, because of that little directive that the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) read out, because of that directive, where their neighbours had to bring them food so thnt they culd survive from one week to the next. Now, Mr. Chirman, ho wants the facts, let me take him. lie says he is too well acquainted with the problems of poor people in thin Province. Well indeed he should be. i,,ut what does he do, Mr. Chairman?

He stands up over there ad he says: 'Oh, Co not blame us. We have nothing to do with this, nothing at all to do with the economic conditions in this Province t is international. Mi. Chairman, we know it is internationl. It is the federal government. We know part of the blame lor the economic conditions Ln this country is the blam of the lederal qovernment,to be laid at their doorstop. MR. NEAR?: And the Go'ernment f the United States. MF..TULK: And the Goernment of the United States. But what about this crew? No, not them.

He says, 'Mc' have done everything we can do, we lava cut everything wo can cut, there is nothing else left'. Does he realLy believe that? Does he reaJ Ly believe ti at he han to go out and cut widows a month for every p rson who is living in their homes? Does h reaLly believe that?

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 28)3 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: MR. TULK: MR. TOBIN: MR. NEARY: what you are talking alout. That is not true. That is not true. Does he really believe that? That is not true. Do not he silly, you do not know MR. TULK: Do you want a trip too. MR. NEARY: Go back to \our seat. MR. TULK: Would you like to take a trip? I will take you with th minister s You aie a former social worker, so I will take y)u with him and I will show you the conditions in this Province. MR. TOBIN: That is not true. MR. NEARY: It is so true. MR. TULK: Do you want to come? MR. TOB1d: Be honest. Be honest. MR.

TULK: I am being ionest. Do you want to come? Are you game to be MR. TOBIN: With you? MR. TULK: Yes, I will show them to you, I will introduce you tc them, the poor people of this Province. MP. NFT\RY: Do not pay any attention to him he was more interested in, p1 tying politics instead of looking after his job. DR. COLLINS: There re some politics Iirq played here alriqht. MR. TIJLK: Mr. Chairrnaii, where else could they cut? 'Where else? he says. 'What doe could we do , says the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Turkey) Mr. CIiairma a, L d not know. We have thirty or forty things here that he could hove done.

I am not going to name them all. MR. WARREN: Read some of them out. MR. NEARY: Givehim some examples. MR. TULK: Airiqht, let mc give you an example. What about that work ing done to the fountain at the old S.;

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 2:93 SD - 3 MR. TULK: Colonial Blilding - MR. NEARY: And removig trees. MR. TULK: - removing trees and so on? Is that so critical that he has to do it n )W, that he has to Lax people - well, I suppose, in my boots they are the rdinary people. The member for St. May's - Th' Capes (Mr. Horn) says, 'No, they are not ordinary people. The ordinary people are not payinq.' Does that have to be done at the cost of taxing them, at the cost of raising he SSA, the insurance tax and tabacco tax and every other kin1 of tax in this Province that this government can lay its hands on? 60814

November 30, 1982 Tape 2894 EC 1 MR. TULK: What about the $30 million extension to Confederation Building? As the member for Eagle River (Mr. lliscocL) said yesterday evening, that needs to he done somewhere in the future, lut does it have to be done now? MR. NEAR?: Right on! MR. TULK: Can we afford that at a time - I think it was yesterday I heard a person.- another ordinary person in this Province, on an ODen Line show, say that when he becomes sick he intends to phone Confederation Building and see when h can ict a ioom. Itat was an ordinary person in this Province, I suspect.

What about that fleet of cars in the government car pool that I understand has a value of $500,000? PIR. NEAR?: To replace the others there. MR. TULK: The replacement value is $500,000 and you are going to replace them. What about them? They are there f r the elite, the ruling elite, tho ruling Tory elite in this Proviece. That is what they are there for, the bec: i c call of ministers. Why net do oway with that, Mr. Chairman? What about the political appointments? What about theni, the executive assistants in this Province? MR. NEAR?: Right on! Thu pnrliamntnry secretaries. MR.

TULK: Why go at the poor peopic in p this Province? Why not go at them? What abc at the staff in the Premier's office? Another one. MR. NEARY: I would suggest $1 million. NR TULK: Nine hundred and forty thousand dollars, almost $1 million. 6085

November 30, 19)2 Tape 28)4 EC - 2 MR. TULK: Lot me isk him another question. Instead of lotting the ordinary peop].e of his Province, instead of letting the poor in thia Province - SOME lION. MEMBEF 5: Oh, oh q MR. TULK: Would you keep ihat down over there, Mr. Chairman? a CHAIRMAN Order, p1ease MR. TULK: What about the money paid out for rent of the Murray Premises that was not occupied? What about the money paid out for that? Does he have to hit the poor, the widows in this Province? Does he have to raise the insurance liremiu ii tax in this Province or the S.S.ii. What about that, Mi . Chairman? MR.

NEARY; What about the liquor agency clown in Trepasscy? MR. TULK: Let us take a icok at this one, Mr. Chu Irman, let us take a look at another one, the hiring of interior decorators to redo the offices of ministers and deputy minieters rnd the private dining room? Did that have to be done? 'lo, Mr. Chairman, not at all. And, Mr. Chairman, what about the symbol, he thing in Lhi. Proinco that has become a symbol of the arrogance and the lite, thu ruling elite of this Province? What abou) that great Mount Scio house? Does the Premier need twenty- seven rooms? Does he need I hat in the economic times we are in?

Does he need free be and fre( , raiI service in that iouse? I that what we nuod in fthi Province, Mr. Chairman? Ll Now, whit about one other thing, Mr. Chairman - b'fore cutttnq the )oor, before the Minister of Ileall:h (Mr. house) cuts down the number of hospital beds in this Province, bciforo his actions lead to

November 30, 1982 'I'ape 2894 EC - 3 MR. TtJLK: that, what about the enlargement of thoffico of the Premier's Chief of Staff, $20,000 woth? MR. NEARY: Yes, thinks he is a deputy minister. MR. TULK: Thinks he is a deputy minister. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. RID1:OTJT: MR, CHAIRMAN: Baie Verte - White Bay. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Mr. Chairman. The hon. the member for hear, hear!

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 2895 MJ - 1 MR. T. RIDEOUT: Mr. Qiainmn, I woull like to have a word or two to say in this debate not thet it is important that I respond to anythinq that the hon. the cjentleman from Foqo (Mr. B. Tulk) just ;aid because I susnect, Mr. chirman, that all he did was take the l ,aqes out of Hansard from his leader yesterday and Lhen parrot those phrases here again today but then.acjain, Mr. Chai.rman, that is about what we would expect from the hon gentleman froc Foqo. Now, Mr.

Chairman, thereaxe a few things which have been said over the last few days in this debate that I think should be put to rest onct and for all. I have heard to the hoc. tb healer of the Oppoition (Mr. S. Neary) refer to louses and skunks. I have hard him, Mr. Qairman. And if there is a louse or a skunk in this Province, there he is, Mr. CliainTian, sit tinq there on the other side of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, heart MR. H. WARREN: And the Premier. MR. RIDEOUT: If there i!l a louse or a skunk in this Province, Mr. Chairman, he should have been in Baie Verto last Thursday, Mr.

Chirman, and faced the music from 200 scalers, Mr. Chairman - SOME LION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, pie so! MR.G. ARREN: A louse ac ass Lhe Iloor. A louse cross the floor. MR. RIDEOUT: - faced the cusic from Bill Rompkeys effice, he should have been there and laced them. But what lid lie do, Mr. Chairman? Like a skunk ind a louse he sent teLonram, and condemned Bill Rompkey and condemned the remLer, Mr. Chairman, condemned everylody he could think bout, he condenined them all and he styed here in the safety f St. Johns. That is the skunk and the louse, Mr. Chairman,

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 2895 MJ - 2 MR. T. RIDEOUI': who wants to become Premier of this Province. That is him, Mr. Chairman. MR. G. WARREN: You cannot defend him boy. It is too late to defnd him now. MR. RIDEOUT: When I was on the other side, Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman was down iii the corner, he was out of the Liberal party down in the corner by himself. MR. S. NEARY: At least I got (inaudible). MR. RIDEOUT: He was down theie, Mr.

Chairman, and I remember him sa mg to me one day when I was up shivering a speech out of me, the first time ever I spoke in this House I remember him turning on me anJ I remember some of my colleagues saying that nobody would do that to a new member. Nobody, of course,axcept the lion, gentleman who is now Leader of the Opposition (Mr. S. Neary).

4 L'l November 30, 1982, Tape 2896, Page 1 -- apb MR. RIDEOIJT: One of the worst things the Liberal Party over did, Mr. Chairman, was to let him back in the party. I should say one of the best things they ever did for this party was to let him back in the party. hut the hon. gentleman for St. Mary's - The dapes(Mr. Hearn) got up yesterday and made a very elegant spi ech, made an (:xcellent speech, Mr. Chairman - MR. WARREN: Oh, yes. We got it and everybody in Newfoundland will have it too. MR. RIDE0Ur: - in this House - MR. WARREN: I did not know you were so stupid.

MR._RIDEOUT: - and the hon. geni leman gets up and he twists it and he turns and he slides and he struggles and does it all, Mr. Chairman, to try to turn that very excellent, eoqueiit down-to-earth speech into something that somebody would be ashamed of saying. And what did the lion, gentleman say? What did he say, in essence, Mr. Chairman? The essence of what he said ws simply this, that those who can afford to spend more pay a little bit more. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR.CARTER: That is right. MR. RIDEOUT: That is what he stid. MR. NEARY: Is that what he said? MR. RIDEOUT: That is exactly what he said. MR.

NEARY: Well, you had betl:r read Hansard. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairman, if 11here is anything - MR. NEARY: We have the Ilansaid. MR. RIDEOUT: - that should go out of this House over the next day or two, or two or three days, to all constituents in all rural communities around this Province, it is the speech ihat the hon. gentleman made in the House last week about the situation of fi:3h plant:: in this Province when he said, 'Close them down, let them go'. That is exactly what he said. 6flnn

November 30, 1982, Tape 2896, Page 2 -- apb SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hoar, hear: MR._RIDEOtJT: That is exactly what he said. And if there is arything that should go out of this house at the expense of the taxpayer , Mr. Chairman, it is what the hon. the Leadr of the Opprsiti'n(Mr. Neary) had to say. That is morc important, Lhat really tells the philosophy of the hon. gentlenian, that really tells the philosophy of the Liberal Pony, tht really tells what they stand for. Ard if there is anyrhing that should go outit is that.

It is there in hlan:;arcl, I have had a look at it, it says beyond words, 'Let them go, let them die, let them fall, do not try to s.ve them'. 'hhen he comes into this House yesterday and tries to make light of what is happening in Berth, or the potential of what might happen in some oth.rr place in this Province. So, Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman has to stop talkinq out of both sides of his mouth. He cannot have it both ways. The people of this Province just will not let him have it both ways. So, you know, Mr. Chairiian, he gets on again today, and the hon. gentleman for Fogo(Mr.

Tulk) did the same thing, talking about renovations to the private dining room. Mr. ChairmLn, there has not been any r rnovations made to the private dining room as fir, and I think there was some question on the Order Paper sometime ago and we had this checked out, there has not been a renovation done to the private dining room in years, in years, Mr. Chairman. lie talks about the $20,000 that was somehow spent rn the office of the Chief of Staff for the Premier. Mr. hairman, nobody else knows anything about it.

There was a pirtition moved back that might have cost - I do not kn what the labour rates might be in Public Works - MR. YOUNG: Any renovations were done by our own employers. 6091

November 30, 1982, Tape 2896, Page 3 -- apb MR. RIDEOUl: By our owi employees in Public Works therv was a partition moved bck that might have cost $2,000 or $3,000 or $4,000, I 10 not know, but 4 6092

November 30, 1982 Tape 2897 NM - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: $20,000, you know. MR. NEARY: What about the chandelier? That was the biggest expense. MR. RIDEOtJT: The chaide1ior, and the private elevator and all this kind of stuff, Mr. Chairman, it Just does not happen. It is a figmont of the imagination of the hon. qentlemaii. The hon. gentLeman gets up and he mouths those things, Mr. Chairman, he 'riouths them in the hope that the press vill make a headli'ie out of them.

That is the only reason wly he does it, n the hope that the press will make a hed1ine out of rerio,ations to the private dining room, out of pending hundreds f thousands of dollars on the eighth floor, out of the cost f a private elevator, out of anythinq. MR. WARREN: flow trw. MR. RIDEOtJT: That is why he does it, Mr. Chairman, in the hope that the pre.s will pick it up. MR. TULK: Let him tell us about the cost. of moving the member back to the Premier's Office. MR. RIDEOUT: He can. I will have another dart at him. The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Nir.

Near ) would do a lot better - he talks about people who bury thei' heads in the sand, he talks about people who have become insu ated from what the public feels 1 well he should have been I here in Baie Verte on Friday morninq - MR. TIJLK: Where was the Premier? MR. RIDEOUT : I was there and I do not mind taking it on the chir SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. RIDEOUT: I do not mind taking it on the chin, Mr. Speaker, t! is lad has got a thick hide, and this lad has got wide shoulde s. I do not mind. At least I was there 6093

November 30, 1982 Tape 897 NM - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: in person. And when I responded there was a greot applause and there was not a word after. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear'. MR. RIDEOUT: The hn. gentleman sent down a telegram and he should have ben there. Mr. Speaker, when it was read. MR. TOBIN: Why ws he not there? MR. RIDEOUT: Condened the ;overnment of Newfoundland for trying to save the livelihoods of those 250 people who were there, number one.

Number two, condemd the Government of Canada, If the Government of Canada took some scalers from the Northwest Territories I do not know,but the Leader of the Oppo;ition (Mr. Neary) alleges that they did. If they did thai is their business. MR. WARREN: You do not know whnt you are talkinq about. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairman, 1 can speak, that is more than I can say for the hon. (jentleman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, heart MR. R]DEOIJT: So if they did that, Mr. Chairman, that is their business, that is not my businers. But he slides in this Telex, Mr. Chairman, which was read and the deafening was silence.

The only thing I can s.y, Mr. Chairman, in the forty-eight days - MB. DOYLE: The silence wa deafening. DLO1 - the silence ws deafening - in the forty-eight days, Mr. Chairman, that this House has been open, since we resumed the Fall session, I can only speculate, Mr. Chairman, that - AN HON. MEMBER: Forty-eight day:? MR. RIDEOUT: Yes, forty-eiqhL days. I suppose that counts weekends and all- I can only speculate, Mr. Chairman, 6094

November 30, 1982 Tape 2897 NM - 3 MR. RIDEOtJT: that not only the Leader of the Opponition (Mr. Neary) , but every marl over there, wakes up in the morning and the first thing he does before he gets out of bed or comes to the House, is take an over- dose of stunned pill. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hoar, hoar MR. CHAIRMAN (Dr. McNicholas): The hon. member for Fogo. MR. STAGG: The deafening is silence. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, finally we got the member lor - where is it? - Baie Verte-White Bay out of his seat. MR. WARREN: The skunk. MR. TULK: He says we have been open forty-eight days, Mr.

Chairman, his silence has been deafening in this Howe. Make no mistake about that. We finally got him up and now, Mr. thairinan, he says if I stand up he is going to give me anoIher little dart. Well, Mr. Chairman, 6095

November 30, 1982 Tape 2898 PK - 1 MR. TULK: he said, I was parrotting the deader on this side, parrotting the Leader. Did you ever see such a parrot, Mr. Chairnrao? MR. WARREN: 110w funny! Shameful MR. TULK: Did you ever see hiji? MR. WARREN: Did you ever see such a louse? MR. TIJLK: lie goes after the Leader on this side, Mr. Chairman, for one tim sitting as an independent. MR. LIODDER: Oh! MR. TULK: 'Rat did he do, Mr. Chairman? MR. WARREN: Yes, like a louse! MR. TULK: It is time that this house was told what the hon. gentleman did. What did he to?

He stood in this house and said, I cross the house on pri nciple. AN hlOiL MEMBER: The OPposition (inaudible). MR. T1JLK: Let me ask him what principle? What principle? SOME lION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. TULK: Has it chaiqed? What did he do when h sat in the Liberal Party as the Opposition spokesman 'n energy? What did he do, Mr. Chairman. lie sat at the table. MR. WARREN: Come across , Sir. MR. TULK: lie sat at the table and said nothing ibout energy, as the shadow on energy fcr the Literal Party. That is what he did. In the meantime, Mr.

Chairman, he was ;cuttling around behind doors getting ready to make his great debut. MR. WARREN: hear, hear! Like a louse! MR. YULE: To be a great man fer Newfoundland. MR._WARREN: Like a loune! MR. TULK: That is whet he did. Mr. Chairman. While he was the spokesman on energy for the Liberal Party, he worked and wermed his way to try to gel across the

November 30, 1.982 , Tape 2898 PK - 2 MR. TULK: House. MR. RIDEOUT: (Inaudible) for fisheries? MR. TULK: That is what the hon. gentleman did. That is what lie did in this House. That is what: he did, Mr. A. Chairman. SOME HON. ME 11BERS: Hear, hea! MR. TULK: He did not open his yap while lie was the Oppo;ition spokesman on energy, neither in caucus not out, except perhaps, I am told, to write a few poison pen let ters. MR. RIDEOUT: What are 'au spokesman on? MR. TULK: Okay, Mr. Chairman, that is what he did. That is what the man did. Now, Mr.

Chairman, let us come back to some itiore of those increases that the hon. gentleman is standing up over there and defending. Let us come back to them. $20,000 worth of enlargement to the Chief Staff's office. MR. NEARY: He says, $4,000 or $5,000. MR. TULK: He says $4,000 or $5,000,he is not sure. MR. NEARY: They only moved a partition to make him an olfice that: is half the sizc of the house of Assembly. MR. TULK: Only moved the partition, that is all. For what? For what, Mr. Chairman? For what? So the hon. gent[exnan can come and sit in the galleries every day. Is that what they made the renovation for? 6097

November 30, 1982 Tape :898 P1< - 3 fIR. DINN: (Inaudible) eight floor. MR. TULK: Let me ask him another question. MR. NEARY: When we go on the eighth floor we will be goini back as the government. SOME lION. MEMBERS: Hear, hear M.R. TULK: Mr. Chairman, is that hon. gentleman now standijig up and defendin' the day of mourning that we had in this Province last Wint( r, that ost this Province $4,000 to $f,000 , where the ey that l,e parrots, the man that he parrots made a complete fool of himself? Is that what he is doing? SOME HON. MEMBERS: hear, hear MR. WARREN: More stupil than a louse. MR.

TULK: The bigges joke in Newfoundland's history was the day of mourning that was in this Province last year, the biqqest single joke that was ever undertaken by a politician. MR. STAGG: The hggesI joke in Newfoundland's history is whenever your brithday is. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR._TULK: It may he the same lay as yours and there may be two jokes. MR. TOB.TN: People did not thini it was a joke on April 6. MR. WARREN: They do now though. MIt. TIJLK: What about, Mr. Chairman, the daily It things that go on in this government, where they send out propaganda sheets afi er propaganda shcts MR.

NEARY: flouseholdei mailings.

November 30, 1952 Tape No. 289) SD - 1 MR. TULK: householder riiiilinqs, rould they not cut that insteail of hitt nq the poor. Oh, yes lie in qoinq to stand up and del end that. Because he is a id pupp t, Mr. Chairman, he ha1; to do ir 1. J. .Llitt.11L4 Lt) U.) I C. MR. NEARY: A paid gun. MR. TULK: What: about that of[iciii handshaker that we have in the Prov floe? The what? MR. TULK: The official hnndshaker, that mai' who greets everybody in I his Province. Is that necensary in a time of restraint? MR. STAGG: What: about the Lieutenant-Governor now? When are you gel ting down to him? MR. TULK: Mr.

Chairman, the hon. member for Stephenville (Mi . Staqg) should be quiet, because I (ho not Want to name him as one of the unnecessary parliamentary secret:;, one of the unnecessary expenses of this Prevince. So he shioul. be quiet. SOME HON. MEMBEIrS: hear, hear. MR. TULK: What about the number of Cabinet Ministers? Is L possible to cut them? Could they work a few more hours, Mr. Chairman? MR. WARREN: The Premier nays no. MR. TULK: They have one guy in this house, Mr.

Chairman, who does everything, he is the catchall, and I speak of the Minister of Development, Tourism, housing, whatever else you can throw in thare. Why not a few more of those? Mr. Chairman, what about the fancy helicopter contract:s where ministers, last year, because they had a certain number of hours signed up with helicopter companies in this Province, had to go up and take joyrides, had to go on the Northern Peninsula - it could have been the hon. member's district: - had to go on the Northern Peninsula

November 30, 1982 rape No. 2 199 SD - 2 4 MR. TULK: and say pick up thit and (JO out and ridc. MR. STACG: What about the helicopter you had during the election? MR. TULK: Pardon? MR. BAIRD: Come on nov, toll us about it. NIP. TULK: Write me a totter and I will tell you. NIB._STAGE: I know, we all know who it is. NIP. BAIRD: We al I know who it is. MR. WARREN: More power to him. More power to him. MR. TULK: What about the construction of jaLls: That is what this government is amous for, the construction of jails all over the Province. NIL.

Cha rman, this government has done nothing except to hit the poor loople of this Province. MR. STAGE: Some ody tLd this man he was going down the tubes. Well, he said, I will noi go down the tubes, I will get a helicopter and, sure enough, the helicopter pulled it out for him. MR. RIDEOUT: And he got Len Stirling to send a telegram to logo which saved him. MR. TULK: A teLegram to Foqo? MR. RII)EOUT: Yes. Do y u not remember? I do. MR. TULK: You do. I:. that the same person wonder who made all the calls to my house? Are you that person too. MR. RIDEOUT: No. MR. rPULK : You do not rite poison pen letters, do you?

Nil. RIDEOUT: I do not wi tte any letters. MR. TULK: You do not .irite poison pen letters, yol gave that 01). You are reformed. YOU are living on principle. SOlE lION._MEMBERS Oh, oh. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairmn, I wanl to come back to the member for St. Marys - The Capes (Mr. Ueain). About two weeks age in Lhis House I made a stotement on a fisheries 6100

November 30, 1902 Tape Ito. 2tt99 SD - 3 MR. TULK bill , on a Pri vaLe Members DII 1 that I think the hen. member has goed intentions. I think he has good intentions, but. I th.i nk he is being misled. Now, you could take his speech and go tli rough it, every word that. he said yesterday evening, and what he is saying is Lht the ordinary people of this Province, the middle-class people of this Province are not ordinary poop Ic. But I am not going to do that. What I want to do Inst ead is to comment upon a comment that I heard - MR. STAGG: (Inaudible) who said that. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman. MR.

SIMMS: Silence, silence. MR. TULK: Could we have the toddler he quiet over there? That guy who is tryinq to worm his way into the Cabinet, the parliamentary secret, eouid he not be quiet? I am speaking about the member for ;tephnvi1 Ic (Mr. Staqg) MR.STAGG: (lnaudible) MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas): Order, p1ease 6101

November 30, 1982 Tape 2901) EC - 1 MR. TULK: Bionic mouth. Th re he goes. Mr.Chairinan, yest rday evening the member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hearn) made a comment across the house that 'True Newfoundlanders,' he says, 'True Newfoundlanders would sooner (live than jive away. ' Now, Mr. Chairman, whai was he ,-aying? 4 You know, what he was doing, Mr. Ch,,irman, wee again parroting the words of the Premier of this Province. 'If you do not agree with what I do or what I say, then you are not a true Newfoundlander. You are a traitor. If you do not do it the Tory way, yi are a traitor. MR.

NEARY: That is i ight. MR. TULK: You have Lo do it our way or not at all. That was the comment he made when the Leader of the opposition (Mr. Neary) was sp akinq yesterday evening, 'True Now loundlanclors would sooner give than give away.' Well, Mr. Chairman, I we it to say to him now that the true Newfoundiancicrs - MR. STAGG; I wish I had said that. MR. TULK: You could not make that up in a month. If you sat down for a month with pen and paper, you could nor make Of) that. ;here is one thing I will say for the nember for St.

Ma •y's - The Capes, he far surpasses the hon. gentleman ith his ability to say things. [Ic (lees not have to (ret up and repeat himself over and over. Mr. Chair an, that is what the attitude is. And I say Lo him that the ordinary people of this Province have given enough. They have given enough to this government, Mr. Chairman. That is the same attitude, it is the Tory at itude that reflects itself in the Premier's licencing po icy for the fishery, put them in the boaLs and let them s arve, (jive them all 6102

November 30, 1982 Tape 2900 CC 2 MR. TULK; a boat but let them starve. They will all fall )ut and somebody else will come in and take their plac . That is the attitude. I am sorry to hear the member or St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Ilearn) say it, but he show d himself yesterday evening, a Mr. Chairman, as a true Tory. That is the same phTosophy, a Mr, Chairman, that Jn 1980 made the Premier of this Province get on teivision and say, 'Oh, take a twenty-one day cooling off period.' In July, he said to the fishermen of this Province, 'take a twenty-one day cooling off period.' In other words, Mr.

Chairman, 'You are fishermen, but for my sake, so I can do something with this, would you take twenty-one days off: It does not matter if you starve, you can cntch moose andrabbits.' That was what he said, 'You can catch moos and rabbits.' It is the same philosophy, Mr. Chairman, that appointed a Royal Commission which still sits on the sttelf, that we hear the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) once in a while coming out and saying he is going to resurrect. That is the same philosophy. MR. FIISCOCK: And rnlue(1 the loans from the Loan Board from 3 per cent to 12 per cent. MR. TULK: hr.

Chairman, raised the Loans to fishermen in this Province from 8 per cent to 12 per cent. MR. IIISCOCL: And now u lot of Lhcin are having difficulty i aking payments. MR. TULK: Well, a lot oF thrin are havi oct difficulty making ayments. Let me tell you something else, they are goiig to find themselves paying interest rates that are higher than the interest rate at the bank pretty soon. 6103

November 30, 1982 Tape 2900 EC - 3 MR. STACG: There ar, Only two ouys over there that have any sense, over on t iat side, only two. MR._TULK: Well, Mr Chairmen, if that 2 i; true, lot me tell the hon. the in mber for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) that there are at least two more over here that they would accept than we wouji, because there is nobody over there that we would have. MR. RIDiO(JT; (Inaudibilo) corrvin- on noqotia Lions. 6104

November 30, 1982 Tape No. 2901 MJ - 1 MR. B. TULK: You are lyini, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN (Azard) Order, pleaso! Order, please! The hon. the member made an unparliamentary statcmnt, I would ask hi.m to withdraw it. MR. TULK. Mr. Chairman, I withdraw the statement. Let me tel the hon. member that he is not tell ing the whole truth. SOME HON. MEMBERS: 'Yi, 01! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. TULK: And I will ask the hon. member to go outside the house and make the statement that he just made there. Will you do that? MR. T. RIDEOIJT: (Tnaudible) MR. TIJLK. Good, go make it. MR. S. NEARY: Get the boxing gloves out. MR.

C. WARREN: lie is Ino pinch of a chicken. He is too much of a II use and a skonk. MR. TULK: You ae not tellin1 the truth. You are not telling the truth. Jow, let me toil this House something, the hon. meliber, because I was a j on ior member in this House, pulled ri into his office one day and said, ' U (IC not know about this si e, I wonder. I wonder could U win my district as a Tory n two years? lie said, 'What do you think? Do you think y u could win yours? That was the oue.stion. That is the hon. gentleman. MR. RIDEOUT: I did it. I did it. MR.

TULK: And the answer that I made to that hon. gentleman is the one he should have made, Mr. Chairman, because I was elected as a Liberal . If I want to be a Tory, I will go out and try to get elected as a Tory, but he did n it have the juts to do that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order! Order! V 6105

Novenibc' r 30, 1962 tape No. 2(., )1 M3 - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN(Aylward) Order, plene! MR. B. ruLK: He did not have the guts to do that. He wanted to take his two 1ttic years and try to win back his seat. 4 R.CilAlRMAN: Order TIJLK• Talk about snakes. SOME I ION . MEMBERS : Oh, oh MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. the members Lime has el ipsed. MR. I. IIEARN: Mr. Chairmai. MR. CIIItTRMAN: The hon. thu member for St. Mary's - The Capes. SOME LION. MEMBERS: hoar, hear! MR. S. NEAR'?: A real Tory speech again. MEIA. thank you, Ir. Chairman. I suppose the hon. the Loader of the Opposition ( Ir. S.

Neary) would recognize ii Tory speech if he heard one you know. I left the Ilouse yesterday evening thinking that the hen the Lader of the Opposition was rather dense. Today I am convinced of it. Not only has he misinterpreted the words that I uttered yesterday evening, the truth that I brought forward yesterday evening, but he is also mixed up in relation to every issue that has come about in tie House today. I am going to try to be relevant in relation to the bill that we are talking about, Mr. Chairman, but there are a few ether points that we have to bring in.

First of all we heard him this evening talking to the Minister of Energy (Mr. Wm. Marshall) concerning the agreements wit i the federal government. Perhaps he should ask the eperter from CBC, Mr. Seaward, what answer Mr. Chetien gave him last night when he ask'd him over and over and ovei about the flexibility of the federal stand; no answer. Absolutely no answer. Perhaps his should ask his counterpart - we are talking about waste - 6106

November 30, 1982 lipo Mo. 2901 MJ - 3 MR. L . FIEARN: perh,tps he i;houid ask hi a counterpart op in Ottawa, Mr. Ponipkcy, how conic his travel expenses this year is $96,83,up $76,404 from last year, since he realized that he i s i ii I ui 1 behind out In (iiand a I 1; - White [lay - L bi:ado r 6107 4

November 30, 1982 Tape 202 NM - 1 MR. HEARN: ou know 1 talk about waste and extravagance. Maybe he should also ask Mr. Seaward how come an :independent economist beinq interviewed by him last week stated that there is a cap in the Nova Scotian agreement, that the hon. members acrot;s the floor say, "Sign up, boys. Crib that agreement 'hile you can." You know, "Get it while the getting is go d." Get what? MR. STAG(: 110w silly, how foolish. MR. IIEARN: The Leader of the Liberals in Nova Scotia, who has litLie more on the ball apparently thai -i the Enterim Leader of the Liberal:c (Mr.

Noary) here in Newfoundland says - MR. I)INN: I hope o. MR. IIEARN: - "i3uchcnnan gave away the farm". Perhaps it is time to give away the Opposition, except we would not be qivinq away the farm, we would be giving away the zoo. Being a little more relevant, we,irc talking about the slate of our economy in Newfoundland, and once again I am just pointing out things that the hon. Leader of the OppositiOn (Mr. Neary) has brought up and I am beqinriinq to doubt his wisdom. A few days ago we heard him stand up in the house and sty, "The Premier should resign. lie should res ic;n.

Bring somebody in w 1io knows something about the economy." And hit went on for twenry minutes to laud Mr. harry Steele, a tremendous Newfounllander. Three days later Mr. Steele was in tho pre:;s and on radio stating, "The only logical step the government could take at this time was to do what it did." Si much I or the leader of the Opposition and his imprensions of vho would make a good leader. MR._NEARY: - lie auteriatically disqualified himself, lie disqualified Irimseif the next day. 6118

November 30, 1982 Tape 2902 NM - 2 MR. HEARN: So all he is saying there is, if Mr. Steele would know what to do consequently Mr. Peckford and his government knew what to do and we di.d it. MR. STAGG: Right on. MR. HEARN: However, Mr. Chairman, beinq a little more relevant. We have been knocked since the 4 financial statement :oncerniny the imposition of taxes about hardship upon the pc)ple and I clarified yesterday evening that the poor peoph in thLs Province are not being hurt as much as the rich(r peopLe. They cannot afford to be hurt.

So consequent ly because of the low incomes that they have, and we all kncv not high enough in a lot of cases, they are not affectel as drastically as others are. That is the point we tried to make. But let us go back to the history of assessment tax in this Province. December 7th., 1949, Act No. 97, ail act that was proclaimed and brought in force in November 150 by Lhe Liberal Government, introducing sales tax. The tax rate increased f cm 3 per cent to 5 per cent, July 1st., 1960. 1()67, the rate of tax increased from 5 t( 6 per cent.

One year later, just one ycar later, rind of course times were not as g)d as they are now and the income of people was not anywh nrc near as high, the rate 01 increase for one year went from 6 per cent to 1 per cent. But, Mr. Chairman, durinn that same 1xrOd the minimum purchase subject to tax was i educed from 17 cents to 13 ccl! Ls, the candy bar tax. Now the hon. (JenL I eman who was a minister in that government has a very, veny short memory, and people ho 6109

November 30, 1982 Tape 2903 P1< - 1 MR. IIEARN: live in glass houses should not throw Stones. MR. WARREN: 110w much i; it today? MR. IIEARN: So [ sugge::t to the hon. members across the floor - MR. WEARY: Carry on nw Carry on: * MR. iIEARN: - that bef re they start knocking progress , they start looking over their shoulders. MR. WARCN: Progress? MR. NEARY: Let us hea3 the rest of the story. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. C1IAIRM'N (Aylward): The hon. meaber for Eagle River. MR. 11ISCOCt: Mr. Chairmas, I just want to coment vey briefly upon this bill by saying, as the member for St. Mary's-The Capes (Mr.

Fleirn) just stated - by going back to 1949 We could go back tc Coaker's day, we could q back to Bend's day, we coull go back to Whiteway 'S and Squire':. and the ones before them, a id we can even take the present day, Mr. Chairman - and net year is our 400th. Annivorsar - after 400 years of this Pi:vince being settled we [md ourse1ves now with the highest tayes in Canada, we find oursel es with the highest incomes. /nd the reility is, Mr. Chairi,in, we aro still struggling and wheth r we have a Liber I government or a Conservative government we would st [1 find the same thing. And that is why, Mr.

Chairman, as I have said before,the most important thing for us to do is to develop our resources, develop ur fisheries, not a new Confederation Iluilding, that we will have to renovate downstairs and take this, not dining halls, not Premici 'S houses,not parliamentary secretaries, not big Cabinets, arter 400 ',aars we have the h:ighest taxes but you would not know but we were Kuwait ox Saudi Arabia the way we are acting. So I, [or one ,will not g( t up and fling things back and forth, but I will ask this llousE if we are going to 6110

November 30, 1982 Tape 2903 PK - 2 MR. HISCOCK: continue to not look alter our resources and not go z Eter tourism and agriculture and fisheries, but go aftir big capital projects like building hospitals and buildinr the new Confederation Building in a time of restraint., MR. BAIRD: No, do not build hospitals. MR. HISCOCK: No Not at this time, novas much as we need them. We need the fish plants and we need permanent jobs.

We way need smaller c]inics, we may need better ambulance services, we may need other things, but it is not a good ideo to get into big capital projects, and people would admit tht, even down on the Dunn PeninsuLa, and I,for onedo not rHnd saying it. But with regard to our resources, Mr. Chairman, we are lot developing them. One of the things is, after 400 yearsoui people have always known that we struggled and we will be struggling again in the future. Even after Hibernia, Ben N vis, and the other ones We will still be struggling, because it is not going to be the be all and end all.

And that is why the Premier got an overwhelming mandate in April and the overwhelming mnndate, Mr. Chairman, was to give him a chane to see if things could be bettor, to see if he could sit doin and negotiate,

t) see if he could get a little bit more resoirces and jobs and other things in this Province, to see if he could supplement the offshore hiring practice, to see if we could geL more pople in our plants and our minea and other things. I'hat is why you have forty- [our seats. The government over there now with forty-four seats is operating more with an Opposition mental ity than the Opposition. With forty-four seats, Mr. Chairman, we do not expect the President of the Council (Mn. Marshall) to get up and say the federa L government has to accept this. 6111

November 30, 1982, Tape 2904, Page I -- apb MR. IIISCOCK: What we have to realize, whether we like it or not, is that we are a Province and part of a nation. What is happening with I us qoverunent is the government is acting as if we are I ue nation and the nation is a province. So there 1 is to be agreement. Maybe they should be locked up in a room, or maybe they should be off on the Funks, both of them. But there has to be an agreement. Because if th re is not an agreement, Mr. Chairman, then Canada is suffei Lng. We are bi Lnging in $3 billion to $9 million worth of oil, I believe, from Venezuela.

If you can say that is the way it should be on he East coast, all that oil used in the the mal gone ator at Ilolyrood, and a lecti icity being subidized hre on I he Avalon Peninsula, fine But we have to pay or it as a country and as a l'rovince. Mr. Chairman, we are not being lair. This government, with forty-four seats, got that mandate for one reason only, to negotiate an offshore settlement, an offshore settlement which was honourable for this House, this Proince and this country, not a giveaway. I, for one, believ very, very strongly in the federalist, central pO:Iitioi .

That is what my philosophy is for a strong Canada. Because we know in hard economic times we always look Lo anada, the nation, to help us, as does Ontario, british Columbia, Quebec. So if we weaken the central government in hard economic times we have no one to f 11 back on. I, for one, Mr. Chairman, will say this, two on three months ago I would have said, Yes, have a settlement.

But now, with the hard economic times, and the bottom coming out of the economy, I am a 1 ittl.e bit scared in the back of my mind that maybe I here will be too much pressure on us and that the deal we will ret may not he the best one. 6112

November 30, 1982, Tape 2904, Page 2 -- apb MR._HISCOCK; This side of the House has never said that we shou]d accept the deal that the Premier and the President of the Council(Mr. Marshall) has put forward. We have aever said that. We have said joint management and joiat ownership. Now, finally, the government accept; that. We had the member for Baic Verte - White Bay(Mr. Rideout) cross the floor on that matter and he is now saying the very things that we, as a Liberal Party, have said. But I, for one, Mr. Chairman, beli