LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 5 March, 1987. Time - 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Read ing and Receiving Petitions . . . Prese nting Reports by Stand ing and Special Committees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I'd like to table a copy of the Directory of French Language Services that will be distributed to all members of the Legislature, pertaining to the services that are available in French from Government Services.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Minister of Culture and Heritage Resources. HON. J. WASYLVC IA-LEIS: Madam Speaker , I'm pleased to table a Triennial Report, entitled "Moving Forward," of the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women, December 1982 to March 1986. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . Introduction of Bills . . HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Sorry, Madam Speaker, I have a Ministerial Statement. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultur e and Heritage Resources. HON. J. WASYLYCIA- LEIS: Thank you, Ma da m Speaker.

I would like to take this opportunity to inform the House of an important day for women in Manitoba, in Canada, and, indeed, thr oughout the world - (Interjection)-excuse me, I have the copies right here. Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to inform the House of an important day for women in Ma nitoba, in Canada, and, indeed, throughout the world. Sunda y, March 8 is International Women's Day, a day which has come to symbolize the efforts of women through out history to ensure a world where justice and equality for all become the rule, not the exception.

In recognition of the importance of this ev ent , th e Government of Manitoba has declared March 1 to 8 as International Women's Week. Ma dam Speaker , th e yellow roses which my colleagues and I are wearing today are part of a tradition, a tradition begun by our colleague, the late Honourable Mary Beth Dolin, and are a tribute to the suffragettes who worked long and hard at the turn of this century to ensure that the franchise was extended 127 to women. The activities of the early suffragettes, indeed, directly relate to the involvement of women in this Legislative Assembly .

Madam Speaker, in the last decade in our country and, in particul ar, in this province, we have witnessed many changes in the social and in the economic circumstances faced by women. The demands for equality guarantees in both home and work life have resulted in substantial improvements in the status of women. Yet, despite the gains we have made, equality for the women of this world is still not a reality.

There are literally thousands of activities throughout the world, during the month of March, organized around International Women's Day, which have connected many women on issues such as economic security, decent jobs, decent wages, child care, housework, the double burden of responsibilities in the paid and unpaid labour force, health care, pornography and violence against women.

These activities have served to underscore the ongoing determination of women to build together societies which can truly be rich, with all of our diversities, truly open to all opportunities, and truly free of intolerance, racism and sexism.

Madam Speaker, the principles which frame these aciivities are the very principles which frame a humane society, a society where all members can participate equally, a society where those who require assistance and encouragement will receive it fairly and with dignity, a society truly caring and just, and these issues, Madam Speaker, are the very issues which are rooted in the values and beliefs all citizens hold dear.

Madam Speaker, I am proud to have the opportunity to join with the Pr�mier and with all of my other coll eagues in this Assembly in a celebration of International Women's Day at a public reception today between 4 p.m. and 7 p.m., and I would invite all honourable members to attend and together reaffirm our commitment to continue the work towards equality, greater fairness and greater opportunity for women around the world.

Madam Speaker, I would also invite all members to view a slide show featu ring the work of women artists, prepared in cooperation with the Manitoba Arts Council, and a photography and public ations display produced by the Historic Resources Branch of my department. These events are part of the reception tonight in Room 254. Madam Speaker, International Women's Day was born out of a protest by women textile workers in New York back in 1857, protest ing against unfair working conditions, long hours and low pay.

In Manitoba, in 1987, a series of province-wide events have been planned to commemorate how this single event has touched the lives of all of us, and how together we must all continue to work in the struggle for equality between all men and all women. Thank you, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park.

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 MRS. G. HAMMOND: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I welcome the statement made by the Minister responsible for the Status of Women today. We all agree that women want and should have equali ty. I believe, though, that the suffragettes today are the farm women in Manitoba, and this is an area that is crying for help, the women in rural Manitoba. These women, along with their families, are bearing the brunt of the crisis of agriculture in our province.

If the Minister responsible for Status of Women and the other women in the government caucus would pressure their colle agues to give some immediate help to the farm community, they would relieve some of the enormous stress that farm women are facing today. They are trying to help their families stay together, trying to keep things on an even keel with limited resources and ever-decreasing cash. I would suggest to the Minister, although we welcome everything that she has said in her statement, and agree with the things, there is an immediate need for help in the farm community.

If she wants to help women, and the government wants to help women, this is the place to start right in Manitoba, in rural Manitoba. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Co­ operative Development. HON. J. COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker. As you are aware, through a cooperative process last year, the Rules were changed and the new Rules provide for the tablin g of the sequence of the consideration of th e Estima tes of th e various gov ernment departments by each

section of the Committee of Supp ly, as was established in consultation between the Opposition House Leader and myself just yesterday. So, in accordance with provisions of Rule No. 65(6. 1), I would like to table for the House the sequence, as has been determined, and I would like to thank the Opposition House Leader for his full cooperation and assistance in this regard. RETURNS TO ORDERS HON. J.

COWAN: As well, Madam Speaker, I'd like to table several Returns to Orders on the motion of the Honourable Member for Gladstone: Order for Return, No. 4, dated May 22, 19 86; Order for Return, No. 5, dated June 4, 19 86; Order for Return, No. 6, dated June 9, 1986. And for the information of honourable members, I'd like to indicate that these Orders for Return were developed by the staff of the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security at a total cost of just about $6,000.00. MADAM SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ...

Order please, order please. Question period is coming shortly. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before Oral Questions, may I draw the attention of honourable members to the gallery 128 where we have 18 students from Grade 11 from Gordon Bell High School, under the direction of Mr. Henry Hub ert, and the school, I'm proud to say, is located in the constituency of Wolsel ey. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Agriculture - crisis situation MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Yes, thank you, Madam Speaker.

My question is for the Premier.

Given that last year the Province of Saskatchwan spent $1 .64 billion in agriculture support programs, the Province of Alberta spent $515 million in agriculture support programs, and Manitoba, according to the Western Producer, from figures obtained from the Department of Agricultur e, spent only $36.5 million in agriculture support programs; and given, Madam Speaker, that even after the $1 billion federal grain support program there will still be a loss of net realized income to farmers in Manitoba of 21 percent this year, what action is this Premier prepared to take to assist the beleaguered farmers of Manitoba to survive this coming year?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, clearly , the Leader of the Opposition realizes that this question should have been asked yesterday at 1: 30 p.m. rather than today. Secondly, insofar as action, my first action will be to correct some of the misinformation that has been left on the record by the Leader of the Opposition in his question this aft ernoon.

Madam Speaker, first, the Leader of the Opposition conveniently ignores over $1. 1 billion of the money that he refers to as being provided to the farmers in the Province of Saskatchewan was by way of loan.­ (l nte rjection)- The Leader of the Opposition very conveniently, Madam Speak er, uses a figure of $30- some-million for the Province of Manitoba when the total amount of farm assistance and capital provided is some $16 0 million in the Province of Manitoba.

I would suggest the Leader of the Opposition either speak to his researchers or ensure that he obtains new researchers to give him accurate information on the agricultural crisis in the Province of Man itoba as well as other parts of this country.

Madam Speak er, also, the Leader of the Opposition appears, when he salutes the efforts of Premier Devine in the Province of Saskatchewan, obviously, he has not heard the information released only a few moments ago when the Premier of Saskatchewan indicated to the people of Saskatchewan that assistance to hospitals and schools and universities will be zero percent or less, including the hospitals and schools of rural Saskatchewan ... - (I nterjection)- MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H.

PAWLEY: . . . to the assistance of the women that the Honorable Member for Kirkfield Park referred to only a few moments ago . . .

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: . . . the farm women in the Province of Saskatchewan. MADAM SPEAKER: I remind honourable members that answers should be brief and deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. MR. G. FILMON: I don't think this Premier can take any ... MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. MR. G. FILMON: . . . comfort on health care . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. If the honourable member has a question . . . MR. G. FILMON: . . . when he wants a 10 percent cut in beds. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. G. FILMON: Of course, I do.

That's why I am stan ding, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Would you please ask it? MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Given that other provinces are making serious commitments to their farmers, commitments in terms of hundreds of millions, if not billions of dolla rs in loan capital, in support payments, in programs of all sorts to keep their farmers buoyant, will he not consider taking immediate action, immediate action so that our farmers in Manitoba know tha t this government wants them to survive, as the Provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta want their farmers to survive, instead of giving us all the lip service and the rhetoric and the other extraneous comparisons? HON. H.

PAWLEY: The Leader of the Opposition appears to continue to ignore the information released from Saskatchewan a few moments ago about - (Interjection)- the Member for Arthur says we're not worried about Saskatchewan. Then I don't know, Madam Speaker, why the leader of the Opposition keeps referring to the province of Saskatchewan in his question. At least I thanked the Honour able Member for Lac du Bonnet yesterday who had his facts straight and presented his question in a way that made some logical sense in this Cham ber.

Ma dam Speaker , this government, in specific response to the Leader of the Opposition, provided some $16 0 million approximate to the farmers of the Province of Saskatchewan. In the Province of Manitoba, the num bers being much less insofar as total farmers in the Province of Saskatchewan, and, Madam Speak er, in addition to that $16 0 million, there will be further initiatives. There were other initiatives I might mention that honourable members opposed last Session that were launched in support of the banks as against unfair treatment of farmers by banks.

Of course, they took 129 their marching orders from the banks, Madam Speaker -$16 0 million last year in financial assistance to the farmers in the Province of Manitoba and additional programs will be launched this year. MR. G. FILMON: I know that the Premier likes the questions from the Member for Lac du Bonnet because he writes them for him. Madam Speaker, my question to the Premier is: Given that he has pointed out the program of the Province of Saskatchewan that provides loan capital to farmers, will he . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet on a point of order. MR. C. BAKER: I want to inform the Leader of the Opp osition that I'm capable of writing my own questions. I understand . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. MR. C. BAKER: I'd appreciate it very much if you'd withdraw that remark. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. A dispute over the facts is not a point of order. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, given that the Pr emier has pointed out the wisdom of the Saskatchewan program on loans . . .

MADAM SPEAKER: The Member for lac du Bonnet on a point of order. MR. C. BAKER: I don't really know the Rules of the House, Madam Speaker, but just common decency and dignity would move somebody on the opposite side to withdraw a remark that he knows is not true. MADAM SPEAKER: The honourable member does not have a point of order. Order please. The Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, if I have offended in any way the Member for Lac du Bonnet, whom I respect, I will withdraw any portion of my comment that he is offended by. Madam Speaker, my question is to the Premier.

Given that he has pointed out the wisdom of the Saskatchewan program that provides massive amounts of loan capital to all of their farmers at 6 percent interest, is he prepared to bring in a similar program for the farmers of Manitoba to help them overcome the crisis situation which they are 6 percent loan money guaranteed and interest reduced to that level by the Province of Ma nitoba? HON. H. PAWLEY: Since the Leader of the Opposition persists in providing the House and the public with

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 erroneous information, the Minister of Agriculture is going to provide some detail to the Leader of the Opposition so we can ensure that there is some accurate information provided to this Cham ber. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition with a question. MR. G. FILMON: Yes. Since the Premier is unable to answer that question, Madam Speaker, I'll ask him another question. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: Now he wants to answer. Come on, Howie, make up your mind. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honou rable First Minister on a point of order. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, the usual custom in this Chamber is to refer questions that are of a detailed nature to the appropriate Ministers, and I want to do that because the Leader of the Opposition's resting his case on massive erroneous information. I refer that question to the Minister of Agricultur e. MR. D. ORCHARD: It's qu ite a spot to be in, Madam Speaker, when your Premier won't an swer. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The usual custom in the House, in my understan ding, is that if there is detailed information to be given, it can either be tabled or given in a Ministerial Statement.

Farm land - removal of education tax MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that the Premier's unable to answer that question, I'll ask him a further question. Is he prepared, in order to support the farmers of Manitoba, to remove all or a portion of the education tax off farm land in Manitoba? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, to the honourable member's question, we have indicated as a government during the last election campaign that this matter that he now raises certainly is a priority of this government. Madam Speaker, the honourable member left on the record an erroneous impression that the budg etary spending of Saskatchewan, being $1. 6 billion, is two or three or four times that of the Province of Manitoba. Madam Speaker, let's understand that there are virtually three times as many farmers in the Province of Saskatchewan.

When you take those loan funds at 6 percent on an average Manitoba farm of, say, 500 acres and you look at a subsidy of today's interest rates of 10 percent, which is a 4 percent subsidy on 500 acres, Madam Speaker, that translates into $500 per farm, not massive 130 support in terms of individual farmers. Madam Speaker, when you compare that to our Interest Rate Relief Program, two years running of $6,000 of direct benefits per farm, that program alone is five and six times as much as the Honourable Leader of the Opposition speaks of.

Madam Speaker, the Saskatchewan Government brought in that program prior to an election. This government has brought in long-term lasting programs, four and five years running, and we have committed ourselves to the long- term protection of agriculture, Madam Speak er. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Farmers - interest rate reduction MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition with a supplementa ry. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Premier.

Is he prepared to bring in a program of interest rate reduction for farmers to get them out of their crisis today, to get them out of the problems they face with respect to this coming crop year? Is he prepared, as well, to remove all or a portion of the education tax off farm land? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, this government brought in interest rate reductions two years running, trying to emba rrass . . . MR. G. FILMON: Not for all farmers, just MACC. HON. B.

URUSKI: . . . and I say that quite clearly - we tried to emba rrass your colle agues in Ottawa to lower interest rates for everyone across the board - homeowners, small businessmen and farmers. Madam Speaker, everyone in rural Manitoba and rural Canada is suffering as a result of the insane high-interest rate policy of the Federal Government, which they supp orted when they were in government. That's why we see the thousands of farm famil ies near bankrupt cy today, the businesses that are closing, Madam Speaker, that's the reason . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please!

It's almost impossible for me to hear the Minister's answer over the noise in the Cham ber. Could honour able mem bers please do the Minister the courtesy of being quiet enough for us all to hear the answers. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: My question very simply to the Premier is: When is he prepared to live up to his responsibilities to suppor t the farmers of Manitoba

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 instead of simply whining that it's sombody else's problem? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, this New Democratic Party Government has taken action over the last number of years vis-a-vis interes t rate reductions for those farmers in need. It was this government that launched important beef stablilization, hog stabilization programs. It was this government that launched a number of important programs .

Madam Speaker, unlike the indifference that is demonstrated by Conservatives, whether they be in Ottawa or in the Province of Manitoba, toward the plight of western agriculture, this government is prepared to stand by its record of assistance to the farm people of the Province of Manitoba. This government is prepared to act in the future in respect to initiatives that will assist the farmers of this province, and we certainly don't intend to reduce the assistance to rural schools and hospitals in the Province of Manitoba to zero and less.

MPIC - autobody repair rates MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation . Madam Speaker, the Autopac rates regulating the income of autobody repair companies in Winnipeg and elsewhere are still up in the air, causing a great deal of uncertainty in the car repair business. More seriously still, in recent negotiations, the MPIC negotiators have calle d for no increases at all in these rates.

Therefore, as far as MPIC is concerned, the income of auto repair businesse s will not even be able to keep up with inflation. I would like to ask the Minister the following question : How does the Minister justify the contradiction whereby his agency increases fees from 9 percent to 30 percent, and yet denies the repair shops the chance to meet their increased costs of operation, or is there once again a rule for government and another one for the private sector? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MPIC. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

With respect to the negotiations that are taking place, the member is quite correct that MPIC has laid out a position that , at this time, they are prepared to offer zero percent . The member didn 't indicate that at the same time the Automotive Trades Association has been asking for something like 17 percent to 30 percent . I'm also surprised that the member would want to bring negotiations into this building.

Negotiations between the corporation and the association have, in the past, taken place at the bargaining table, and I 131 would hope that the parties involved would get back and negotiate a reasonable settlement. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A suppl ementary to the same Minister, Madam Spea ker. Is the Minister unwilling to step into these negotiations which have been going on since November and in which the autobody dealers have in fact now agreed to 9.9 percent, but the government, MPIC negotiators , are still at zero percent? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, the member is quite correct.

I am not prepared to get in the middle of negotiations between the corpor at ion and the association. That is properly a function for staff at MPIC to be dealing on behalf of the corporation . I have every reason to believe that a reasonable settlement can be achieved. For the member's information, there has only been one meeting held so far. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A final supplementary to the same Minister, Madam Speaker .

The negotiating representatives, the Automotive Trades, allegedly told MPIC negotiators that the owners of repair shops should look at a reduction of employees' wages to meet the substantial non-controllable costs. Could the Minister assure the House that this is not the policy of the government? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I'm rather surprised that the Member for River Heights , who is a responsible person, would bring in an alleged statement to this House. I was not at the negotiating table. Apparently, the member certainly wasn't.

I have checked with MPIC; I've been told that certainly was not said or, if it was said facetiously , was not corporation policy. Again , all I can say is that I'm not here, as the Minister responsible, to become involved in the negotiations between the corporation and the association . I think the sooner the association realizes this and gets back to the corporation, that some sort of a reasonable settlement can be achieved as has been achieved with some autobody shops in other parts of Manitoba not represented by the association. MACC - interest rates reduction MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden .

MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker . A constituent of the Member for Morris phoned MACC office yesterday and asked if the 8 percent interest policy was still in place for 1987. The answer he received is it is no longer corporation policy. I would ask the Minister of Agriculture if that is true . MADAM SPEAKER: Could the honourable membe r please rephrase the last part of his question? It's a member 's duty to ascertain the truth of facts that he brings to the Legislature . MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you , Madam Speaker . I'll ask the Minister if that is government policy?

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Agricult ure. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, the policy of the write-down of interest rates was in fact brought in two years running, and was for a duration period. If the honourable member has some information that someone who may have been eligible for 8 percent for that write-down and did not receive it, I would like to have those details.

But, certainly, the period that we spoke about and the annou ncements that were made were in fact made on two separate occasions, and unle ss there was some difficulty with an individual file, I would not be aware of it, but government policy has been carried out as promised. MR. G. FINDLAY: Madam Speaker , does that government policy extend into the calendar year of 1987? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, that question, in terms of whether there will be any further write-downs and the like, will be announc ed in due course. MR. G.

FINDLAY: The farmers are under incredible financial pressure right now, and I would like to ask the Minister if he gets some sadistic pleasure out of making them wait and wonder if they're going to get any help? MADAM SPEAKER: That question is not in order. MACC - collection of loans MADAM SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member for Virden have a final supplementary? MR. G. FINDLAY: Yes, a final supplemen tary, Madam Speaker . I'd like to ask the Minister to tell the House on how many MACC loans or how many farmers with MACC loans has the corporation moved to collect those loans in the last year? HON. B.

URUSKI: I think the only one that may be - and I don't want to impu te motives, I wish the honourable member would withdraw the inference in his comments earlier, Madam Speaker, in terms of the inference. I believe, as Minister responsible for the Department of Agriculture, and a member of this government, that we have and will continue to provide the kind of support that we can financially bring about, and we will assist as many farmers as we can.

Our entire extension service has been changed to try and deal with families in crisis and will not always be able to deal with a crisis situation by strictly financial means. It will be by support, by stress counselling, and the like that we will try and support those familes. But for the honourable member to suggest that someone takes sadistic pleasure, Madam Speaker, that honourable member should withdraw that kind of an inference. Federal Sales Tax Credit - social assistance recipients MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Kildonan. - 132 MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security regarding the federal sales tax credit. I'm wondering if the Minister could give this House assurance that social assistance recipients will not lose this money, but will be ensured the benefits of the federal sales tax credit. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Emplo yment Services and Economic Security. HON. L. EVANS: Thank you very much, Ma dam Speaker.

I can assure the honourable member and, indeed, all members of the House that it is our policy to enable provincial social allo wance recipients to receive the benefit of the new federal sales tax credit, and that's consistent with our policy of universal tax credits which are available. We allow those to be passed on to recipients. I might add, however, that it's unfortuna te that in order to be able to be eligible for this, that the Federal Government is requiring now for the first time on the federal income tax forms that applicants must report their welfare benefits.

This was done without consultation with any of the provinces, as I understand, which is very regrettable; and, indeed, what it may mean is that some famili es in Manitoba and, indeed, other parts of Canada will be denied the value of this federal sales tax credit because of being required to report it on their income tax form. MPIC - auto insurance rates MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan with a supplement ary. MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question to the Minister responsible for MPIC. There was an

article this morning about automobile insurance rates which shows Manitoba, by the Insurance Brokers Association, to be seven out of ten cities named Winnipeg. I'm wondering, No. 1: I have a stepson in Edmonton who, when he was 24 years old, was paying $1 ,200 annually for insurance. These figures seem to be somewhat distorted. I'm wondering if the Minister could comment on whether or not these figures are realistic and whether Manitoba is seventh in the country in auto insurance. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please.

The honourable member, I am sure, is aware that he is not to ask a question as to whether statements in a newspaper are correct. The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. M. DOLIN: Yes, if I could rephrase the question. Will the Minister tell this House whether or not Manitoba is seventh in the country in auto insurance rates or is Manitoba, as we have been led to believe, one of the lowest in the country?

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MPIC. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, thank you , Madam Speaker. Indeed, I have read that article. It appeared in today's editorial page of the Winnipeg Free Press and I was quite surprised because I recall that last January there was an

article on automobile insurance and the conclusion of the writer at that time was - and I remember the words so distinctly - " like it or not, public insuran ce is cheaper." Now, they seem to have done an about-face by quoting the Insurance Brokers Association of Ontario and I have not seen the news release or the report fro m the Insurance Brokers Association. That has been requested and I know the examples which were used were probably very selective. In fact , the editorial indicates that they were probably such identical vehicles .

I don't have any hesitation whatsoever confirming that the insurance rates for automobiles in Mani toba are amongst the lowest, if not the lowest, in North America. MPIC - investment policies MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan with a supplementary . MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Madam Speaker, a supplementary to the same Minister. I'm wondering if the Minister could advise the House when MPIC chooses to invest its reserv es and what these investments are used for. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MPIC , briefly. HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, I again presume that's SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER : Order please . The Honourable Minister. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Again , I presume that's in reference to the item which made some remarks about MPIC' s investment policies . I'm pleased that about 95 percent or more of the investments made by MPIC are within the Province of Manitoba for such worthwhile projects as schools and personal care homes, hospitals and assets that are of value to our province.

The inve stments are also made by the Department of Finance at rates which very closely resemble market rates; therefore, Manitoba motorists need not feel that they are subsidizing the various institutions . However , they can be pleased to know that they are providing the funds for the construction of these projects . Child and Family Services - lack of responsibility - Desiree Kozak MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. 133 MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Community Services .

My question is about the death of two-year old Desiree Kozak who was sexually assaulted. The parents of this child had alerted Child and Family Services of their suspicions that this child was being sexually assaulted ; however, Child and Family Services took no action and the result was the death of the child. This, Madam Speaker , is a very serious and indeed criminal lack of responsibility by Child and Family Services. My question to the Minister is: What has she done to ensure that this lack of responsibility will not happen again? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services . HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker, any tragic death of a child is a matter of deep concern to us all. In this particular case, as you know, it's been before the court and we've been waiting for their determination for appropriate follow-up, but of course we've been working on the child abuse issue in an overall way for quite some time. In this particular case , the youngster was actually placed by the mothe r with her sister, and as members well know, parents still do have some rights with regard to their children . MR. D. ORCHARD: .. . you didn 't say that about Jake Epp's comment . MADAM SPEAKER : Order please .

The Honourable Minister . HON. M. SMITH: Parents do have some prior rights as laid out in The Child and Family Act. It's not a case of Child and Family Service agencies being involved in every family situation. Again we are working to fine tune our reporting and our intervention in child and family cases where there can be advanced knowledge, but we also have to look at the right of parents to deal with their own children. It's a question of finding the balance point.

Madam Speaker , members opposite can be assured that we will be looking very, very closely at this case, as any other regrettable incidents that occur, to see if there is anything in the procedures which can be improved. MR. A. BROWN: My question is to the same Ministe r. Was the recent shift of the Assistant Deputy Minister of Child and Fam ily Services, Aleda Turnbull, to Assistant Deputy Minister of Community and Social Services as a result of her incompetent handling of this and other cases; and if so, why was she not fired? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker , absolutely no.

Min. of Community Services - request for resignation MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: My question is to the Premie r.

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 The Minister of Community Services has consistently followed bad advice regarding her department. Ever since the central agency of Child and Family Services was destroyed arid Winnipeg divided into six areas , utter chaos has occurred in this depa rtment, result ing in criminal and unnecessary deaths of children . Will the Premier ask for the Minister's resignation and her incompetent handling of her departmen t? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , clearly, the Member for Rhineland must have received the same information from the research writers who assisted the Leader of the Opposition earl ier in the question period , because again the question is based upon completely and totally erroneous informat ion . I want to say, and I believe this is shared by the majority of membe rs in this House, we have , I believe, one of the most capable Ministers of Community Services in the personage of the Deputy Premier of the Province of Mani toba.

Daerwood Machine Works - incentive payment MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable M inist er of Business Development. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Madam Speaker . Yesterday, I too k as notice a question from the Member for Portage la Prairie . I would, first of all, like to just take a moment to tell him that we are , on this side, glad to see him looking as fit as a fiddle, and that we are wishing him good health for this next Session .

Having said that, Madam Speaker , I would like to indicate and address the concern that he raised the other day suggesting that a loan that was made to a company called Daerwood might look as though it was made for political reasons. I am very pleased to report to him that the reason that the loan was made to thi s company was on the basis of a recommendation in the Ombudsman's Report to us on this matter . It's very difficult to make decisions like this when you want to make sure that you 're being very fair and very equitable as the members opposite would want us to be.

We decided that the recommendations that came to us from the Ombudsman's Report we would want to follow . We did that, and that was the basis for the decision that was made, Madam Speaker. Elk ranching - Swan Valley MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Natural Resources . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh , oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Emerson has the floor to place his question . 134 MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, my que stion is to the Minister of Natural Resources .

This poor Minister tried to expand the elk ranching in Manitoba and was turned down by his caucus and, as a result, announced the termination of the experimental elk ranch in Minitonas . Can the Minister indicate how many elk were on the elk farm at the time that he made his announcement? How many elk are there now? How many have been returned to the wild? How many are the government going to be compensat ing for? MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Thank you , Madam Speaker. I'm pleased to ind icate that we did deal with what was a very controversial issue .

After havi ng had the opportunity to have input from people th roughout the Province of Manitoba and, indeed, the benefit of consultation with caucus and Cabinet, made a decision, and it was to terminate elk ranching as a commerc ial venture in Manitoba . In terms of the numbers -(Interjection)- Madam Speaker , the number of elk on the Swan Valley elk ranch at the time notice was given that we were terminating, I believe was 55. I'm just going from memory. The figures are available . If you want verification of those, they can be obtained from my office . The number today is still the same.

We are in the process of discussion with the parties involv ed , Madam Speaker, to phase out the elk ranch in an orderly manner . The elk owing to the province , a decision will have to be made in respect to the disposition of those animals , but no animals owing to the province have yet been returned to the wild . MR. A. DRIEDGER: To the same Minister, then : Can the Minister ind icate what the total estima ted costs of compensation will be to the taxpayers of Manitoba for the termination of that project? HON. L.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker , it's interesting to note that the Member for Emerson, like the Member for River Heights, appears to be wanting to lobby for specific interest groups in this Chamber. It is true, Madam Speaker , that we are in the process of negotiat ing the settlement, and we indicated pub licly that we would treat the participants in a fair and equitable manner . Those discussions are ongoing, and I don't think it would be resp onsible on my

part in negotiati ng a fair settlement for the people of Manitoba in their interests to reveal in this Chamber in the interests of the Member for Emerson the progress that we are making at this stage . When we have reached a settlement, it will be tabled. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Membe r for Emerson with a final supplementary. MR. A. DRIEDGER: A final supplementary , Madam Speaker , to the same Minister . Since the taxpayers of Manitoba are going to be involved in the compensation factor, is the Minister

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 prepared to table all correspondence that has taken place between his department and the experimental elk ranch? HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, I want to indicate clearly, as we have on all occasions, that in managing the resources of the Province of Manitoba, we are in fact looking after the interests of the taxpayers of Manitoba. Madam Speaker, I want to indicate that there has not been an indication of liability on the part of the province in this matter.

We said we want to deal with the parties in a fair and equitable manner but we are not, by way of that statement, indicating that there is some liabili ty on our part. In terms of th e communication that can be released, if there is third­ party agreement to the release of that information, we would be prepared to table it. Daerwood Machine Works - incentive payment MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is for the Minister responsible for Business Development and Tourism.

Madam Speaker, in the settlement to Daerwood Machine Works, a business located in the Premier's cons tituen cy, the Ombuds man's Report was instrumental in the government and the Premier providing $60,000 of taxpayer relief to Daerwood Machine Works. Can the Minister indicate whether legal opinion sought on behalf of the government indicated whether there was a legal requirement to provide that assistance to Daerwood? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister of Business Development. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Madam Speaker, I think it's important in matters like this that governments not only do what is legally required but what is morally right. MR. D. ORCHARD: Absolutely . Now she's in the chute. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I just stated that because we wanted to make sure tha t we were reasonable and fair with a company that was having difficulties, and followed the recommendation of the Ombudsman to come to terms and to negotiate a settlement with that compa ny, that is what we did, Madam Speak er. Carman Agri Services - relief to MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speak er, my question is for the Premier. Given that for Daerwood Machine Works Ltd., a company in his constituency, a $60,000 loan was provided to that company . . . 135 MR. F. JOHNSTON: Interest free. MR. D.

ORCHARD: . . . interest free, to assist that company because of a moral obli gation on the government, will he provide the same kind of moral leadership and instruct his Minister for Autopac to provide relief to Carman Agri who is similarly, because of bad action by MPIC the same as Daerwood Machine Works in Selkirk - will he provide the moral reasoning and take Carman Agri off the hook for a $700,000 claim for which his government, his Crown corporation, knew for three-and-a-half years was before the courts and never once informed Carman Agri?

Will he apply the same moral values to a busine ss in Pembina constituency as he applies to a business in his own back yard? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I find it extremely unusual that we would be discussing legal cases in this Cham ber, a matter that I believe the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation indicated only yesterday was before the courts. Is the Member for Pembina afraid of the courts? Is the honourable member fearfu l of the appeal that has been launched?

Why would the Member for Pembina be wanting to discuss in this Chamber a matter that has not yet been resolved through the judicial process? MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable ... - (I nterjection)-Order please. The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: On a point of order, I want the record to show that the Minister of Education, that the set of morals for the constituency of the Premier are different than those of the one for Pembina. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please.

The honourable member does not have a point of order. Order please. THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, and the proposed amendment thereto by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources has 19 minutes remaining. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'm pleased to have this opportunity to continue in the participation of the motion before the House.

I want the record to show again clearly that I speak in support of the motion of the Member for Lac du Bonnet and in opposition to the amendment proposed by the Leader of the Opposition. The Throne Speech indicates clearly the commitment of this government to provision of services to people

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 in all parts of the province . This is an area that the government has prided itse lf in providing equitab le access to services , and it will continue in that way. It is true that the forum in which we are function ing, the re will be tests to the system that they have not had to deal with previously , bu t I am confident that the government will continue to show its respons ible handling of services to people and responsible administration of the resources in its charge .

In my address yesterday, I indicated the concern for agriculture, and aga in today in this Chambe r we had further expression for the concern for what is happening in the agricultural community . There was concern expressed , and prope rly so, not only for agriculture - (Interjection)- as a business . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. If honourable members have private conversations, could they please carry them on elsewhere so not to disturb the perso n speaking and the Speaker. The Honourable Minister . HON. L.

HARAPIAK: As I was indicating , Madam Speaker, it is proper that there be expression not only for the state of agriculture , as it is viewed as an industry or as a business , but as well the impact that the cur rent situation has on the families. What is the human toll that is taken by the current situation? As members from all sides have indicated, this problem is largely a question of depressed commodity prices, the cereal grains initially and the specialty crops following in the same direction .

We have heard only yesterday that there are prospects for further decreases in the initial price of our grains , which would be an additional blow to the farming community and would again stress the importance of the need for support from various levels of government to see the farming community through this particular crisis. But in addition to the declining commodity prices , we must look as well at the matter of cost of production . In that area we did have today in this Chamber some discussion on interest rates .

Interest rates are certainly a factor to be considered in terms of input costs , though perhaps not at the same level that they were a few years ago. As a percentage of the operating costs they are, for many farm families, still a very significant fact or. The Provincial Government , through MACC , very ably demonstrated by the Minister of Agricul ture, has attempted to deal with those interest rates , and has in fact in a very real way dealt with them . It is unfortu nate that perhaps the lead shown in that respect was not followed by other levels of government or other lending institutions .

In addition, there is the matter of transportation costs. It is unfortunate that the advantage that the western Canadian grain producers had in terms of the Crow rate is no longer available to them. It was during a period in time when perhaps people did not adequately see or perhaps they could not foresee what would happen in terms of a downturn of grain prices . They were encouraged to support a new policy with respect to the transportation of grain and it resulted in increasing costs to farmers in Manitoba and, indeed , all of Western Canada.

Those farmers could well use the benefit of those reduced rates at this point in time . 136 This particular governme nt last year dealt with Bill No. 4, The Family Farm Protection Act . There was some indication from members opposite that particular bill had a negative effect on the farming community . There is indication from the members opposite , and as was indicat ed earlier , they were opposed to the bil l. They spoke against it.

We, from this side of the House , recogniz ing the difficu lt situation that agriculture was in, stood for the bill, and we said we were quite prepared to tak e the criticism that might be levied at us with respect to implemen tation of the bill. But it was necessary to take that measure to ensure that farm families under stres s would have ever y opportunity to look at viable alternatives to their cur rent situation . Ther e were some lending institutions that indicated that this bill would , in fact, have an upward impact on interest rates. I do not believe t hat is a fair representation of what is happening.

In fact, many were seeing that the risks involved , lenders were seeing that the risks involved in agricul tur e, becaus e of the viability and declining value of assets , would increase the risk to the lende rs. Many of the lenders in making that assessment were wanting to increase the rates and saw this bill as an opportunity to transfer to the Provincial Government by way of Bill No. 4 some responsibility for that increase . But I think it does not truly reflect the increased risk to lenders and I do not sugges t that the re is not a r isk involved for the lenders .

I th ink that the risk to the lenders is more a reflection of the viabilit y of the farming operations related to declining commodity prices and the risk attached to declining asset values . As I said earlie r, I have every confidence that the direction provided by t he Throne Speech will see a con tinuation of the kind of growth that we've had in Manitoba. There are indicators that Manitoba is, in fact , one of the more stable places in all of Canada for industry .

Now aside from the question of agriculture, it is true that agriculture is experienc ing difficulty , but if you look at the other sectors in Man itoba, the observers are very positive about the fut ure of Man itoba . I want to read into the record that some of those obse rvat ions are made by financ ial inst itutions which are not traditionally regarded as suppor ters of this particula r government.

But I t hink , as is happen ing in other sector s, as is indicated by what is happening in the polls , Madam Speaker , there are othe rs who are starting to recogn ize the wisdom of a cooperative approach; and indeed we have the Royal Bank of Canada and the Canad ian Imperial Bank of Commerce ind icating that Mani to ba will be in a very favou rable position with respec t t o the future of Canada and that Manitobans can enjoy tha t particu lar comfort , despite the pressure which exists for the agricultural sector .

I wanted, as well, Madam Speaker , to deal with the area of Natural Resources which is my p rima ry responsibility as a member of Cabinet. We have tried to convey and this government will continue t o convey an attitude of responsible stewardship of our resources. We want , by way of manageme nt of our resour ces, to provide for opportunities for recreation. We want to provide for opportunities for econom ic activity, but primarily, Madam Speaker, we want to ensure that the resources that are enjoyed by this generation are available to future generations .

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 I've said on other occasions and I would want to say on this occasion that our first responsibility, as users of th e resource and our first responsibi lity as a department, as a custodian of the resource, is to see that our resources are passed on to the next generat ion in at least the same state of health as a minimum in which we received them, but ideally we should want these resources to be passed on in an enhanced state. One particular area is the matter of forestry. I am proud of the record of this government with respect to forest management and forest renewal.

I think this indicates a clear commitment to the future and indicates that we have every confidence and a strong desire to see that future generations can enjoy the forests as a place of recreation. They can enjoy the forest, the benefits that come from the opportunities to harvest the forest; and, indeed, they can enjoy the forests for the contribution the forests make to our environmental well-being.

The level of activity tha t this go vernment has undertaken with respect to forest renewal, I think is indeed admirable, and I have to acknowledge the participation of th e Federal Government in that particular program of forest renewal. I am pleased as well, as a Minister responsible for forests in Manitoba and as a member of the Canadian Council of Forest Ministers, to have participated in a program of increasing public awareness of the value of our forests in Canada.

One of the difficult problems that the forest industry has had to contend with is the matter of the counter or the export tax that was imposed by the Federal Government in an attempt to deal with a pending countervail action from the U.S. Government.

The responsibility for implementing replacement measures has been transferred to the Canadian Council of Forest Ministers and they are looking at different measures because indeed the Federal Minister responsible for trade has indicated that her expectation is that we will un der take measures in our respective provincial jurisdictions to replace the impact of the 15 percent federal export tax.

It will not be a simple task, Madam Speaker, due to the variations which exist from province to province, but we'll participate in the process of discussion, maintaining all the while our firm position that we are in charge of the forest resources of this province. We have as well had some discussion on the matter of wildli fe management. Only today in question period, we had discussion on the matter of elk ranching. We are, Madam Speaker , indeed faced with a serious responsibility when we look at the competing interests for our wildli fe resources.

There are those who would want to explore economic opportunities as was the case with respect to elk ranching and there are others who want to continue to see our wildli fe resources allocated to the traditional uses. Included amongst those are recreational hunting. So it is not an easy matter, but it is one that we think we have addressed in a way which will ensure again that the inter ests of future generations will be well addressed. In addition we have been dealing with the question of fisheries.

We have an example in the northwest part of the province where the level of harvest had been deteriorating for a number of years and I was pleased 137 in that particular instance that we had cooperation, indeed leadersh ip, from various groups in the area to close the lake to commercial fishing for a period of as much as three years to ensure that the stocks would be rebuilt, so that we could have a viable commercial fishery on Lake Winnipegosis. We have as well, Madam Speaker, in the province some of the most attractive natural settings for our parks. These provide tremendous opportunities for enjoyment.

They provide opportunities as well for some to pursue economic activities. Our level of support and our sharing of responsibility from volunteers is well demonstrated by the implementation of two new groups, the Friends of Sprucewoods; and only two weeks ago, I had the opportunity to visit the Whiteshell area where we had the Friends of the Whiteshell entering into an agreement for volunta ry participation in the provision of services to our visitors to parks. I am pleased, Madam Speaker, to note that the department will continue in its consulta tive approach to resource management.

The Member for Gladstone indicated, in her presentation, that there had not been adequate consultation with the fishermen on Lake Manitoba with respect to the harvest of perch. Let me say, Madam Speaker , that I, in consultation with the president of the Lake Ma nitoba Fishermen's Association, received the advice that it was the view of the association that in that year, in the current year there should not be the harvest of perch. Now I did have the opportunity to meet in my office with the Member for Gladstone, with the Member for Ste.

Rose and with the Member for Lakeside, along with some fishermen from the south part of the lake, and they asked for consideration of an opportunity to harvest in this year. But, Madam Speaker, it is in consultation with the fishermen's representatives that the decision was made not to proceed in this year. Madam Speaker, I want to indicate that in terms of the other areas, we have been having consultation with the fishermen on Lake Winnipeg. I have been having consultation with community groups with respect to the establishment of the forest reserves, and indeed, with the parks.

I am looking forward to that continuing participation by the public because we are, as a department, only trustees of the resources which belong to the people of Man itoba. So in conclusion, Madam Speaker, I would want to indicate to this House that I have every confidence that the direction provided by the Throne Speech is the direction that the majority of the people of Manitoba want to see and that it will demonstrate again that the government is a sensitive government committed to the provision of services and the resp onsible administration of the affairs of the Province of Manitoba.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. MR. G. CUMMINGS : Madam Speak er, would the member entertain a question? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister has one minutes left on his time if he wishes to answer a question. The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Madam Speaker, my question to the Minister is: After his declaring his pride in MACC,

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 if he will now intercede on behalf of those young farmers in this province who, at the end of their five-year Young Farmer Rebate Program last year, had their loans rewritten at 13.5 percent when the other young farmers in the province were borrowing money at 11.5 percent? HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker , I would be delighted, if the Member for Ste. Rose would make the information available.

I think there was earlier indication from the Minister of Agriculture, if there was a specific instance where there appeared to be some difficulty with a particular loan, that it should be brought to their attention. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Let me first off congratulate all members on their successful return to their respective chairs, and let me offer my condolences to those in Cabinet who were part of the rearranging of the deck chairs on the Titanic and received responsibilities for messes that were created by previous Ministers.

We will soon find enough of those as we get into more question periods and Estimates. Madam Speaker , I also want at this time to offer my congratulations to the Lieutenant-Governor who very studiously and very skilfully read the longest and most boring Throne Speech that I've ever endured in 10 years here. I by no means admit that we were perfect in our Throne Speeches, but that certainly was the worst I have ever heard in the House. It offered nothing new. It offered no vision for the future . It offered no solutions to the problems .

All it did was take and blame everyone else for all of the problems that have beset this government. I hope in the few moments to point out that the problems this government is facing are self-inflicted problems given to us by such notable members of the Treasury Bench as the Member for Rossmere, his four years as Finance Minister and his $2 billion reco rd debt that he harnessed future yet unborn Manitobans with. Madam Speaker , this tired group over here is only in its second year of a new mandate .

When pressed with some questions on Friday of last week from my colleague, the Member for Morris , the Finance Minister said something that was very alarming to me and very disturbing, and should be extremely disturbing to the people of Manitoba . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Could we have one debate go on at a time in the Chamber? The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker , when questioned, the Minister of Finance - and I presume he speaks in terms of policy for his government - when asked about costs and deficits and the impact of those deficits on the Province of Manitoba and the solutions that he may have to offer to the financial crisis that his government has created over the last five years for themselves, this Minister wailed and lashed back at the Member for 138 Morris, asking: Where would you cut? Where would you slash?

Madam Speaker, we know that is the mindset and the framework under which an NDP Cabinet works; i.e., when faced with a deficit , you do only one of two things : you either raise taxes dramatically, which they're about to do, or you increase the deficit . Then if any other suggestion is made to them, they call it hacki ng and slashing . Note the Premier here over the last couple of question periods has been talking about a zero percent increase as dreadful to the hospitals in Saskatchewan , when his Minister of Education suggested a zero percent increase to the teachers of Manitoba.

Is there a difference in teachers versus hosp itals, one being in Manitoba , hospitals being in Saskatchewan? Does the Premier, does the Minister of Health , does the Minister of Finance suppor t that 8 percent bed cutback in Brandon General Hospital? Will they support a 10 percent bed cutback at the Health Sciences Centre in Winnipeg , because that's what we're talking about , Madam Speaker. They decry a zero percent increase in hospital budgets in Saskachewan, which they allege is there, but yet they stand by and watch 8 percent of the beds be cut from Brandon Genera l Hospital, an 8 percent cutback.

I mean, these people aren't consistent. But what is frightening, and I suppose what is alarming in the Throne Speech, is we went through I don 't know how many pages of prolonged agony, but there was not one mention, that I'm aware of, of introducing efficiency measures to the management of government because , in the NDP Cabinet mindse t, there is no such thing as efficiency. Efficiency is not something they talk about when they want to consider opt ions for deficit control. They only consider one thing, and that's raising the taxes.

You can only take so much water out of the well before you drain it, and the Manitoba economy cannot stand to be taxed any more by this governmen t because of their profligate spending . Madam Speaker, they want examples . Well I jotted down a few examples last night, and I'll just run through them briefly and quickly .

Example No. 1, anywhere from $25 million to $28 million are going to be squandered in the constituency north of Selk irk to provide a bridg e to nowhere and a corridor to serve that bridge to nowhere and, at the same time , they're going to build another bridge either in the Town of Selkirk or south of it. So this bridge north or Selkirk is an entire and complete and utter waste of money. (Mr. Deputy Speaker , C. Santos, in the Chair.) It was a political decision by the Premier and his Cabinet to locate it there . It crossed the land of a then sitting Cabinet Minister, and it is a bridge to nowhere .

There is $28 million that could be supporting beds in Brandon General Hospital, could be suppor ting additional day care spaces and - good heavens, Lord knows! - it could be used to support the farme rs right now. But no no, it is squandered on a bridge to nowhere, decided by the Premier and his incompetent Cabinet to build it north of Selkirk against all expert advice. Second example, let's take a look at Crown corporations. How many millions have the Crown corporations gobbled in taxpayer dollars over the last five years of NDP administration? How many millions ?

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 Are we talking $10 0 million? No, that's too low. Are we talking $15 0 million? No, that's still too low, and the tally still runs on the Crown corporations. We're $29 million and ticking on MTX. We don't know how many millions of dollars the Workers Compensation Board is in deficit now that has to be paid for by Manitobans. Five short years ago the Workers Compensation Board was in a budget surplus position, and now it is at least $60 million in deficit. What is that doing for the people of Manitoba?

Manfor - in 19 81, Ma nfor , in the constituency of Omar Sharif of the North - that forestry complex could have been sold to a paper compa ny called Repap .­ (lnt erjection)-Oh, well, now my honourable friend says it could have been given away. My honourable friend from The Pas says it could have been given away. That is the circumstance today, just as you did with Flyer when you could have sold it for benefit to Manitobans, and you had to pay now a million dolla rs to have someone buy it from you, plus provide $2 million in gu arantees, plus provide loan guarantees.

You truly are right in that Flyer was given away by this government one year ago when it could have been sold in 19 81 with a return to the people of Manitoba and you have done the same thing to Manfor in The Pas. It could have been sold at a profit in 1981 to Repap, but now it is going to be given away and I'm sorry that the Member for The Pas, the constituency wherein that Manfor is located, has confirmed that today. Mr. Deputy Speaker , what are we doing when we're talking about delivery of services?

I laughed on Tuesday when in question period this person, who deems himself to be the Premier of this province, said in response to a question from my leader about hospitals: Mr. Deputy Speaker, that means greater emphasis in respect to outpatient community health as against institutional care. Now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I don't know how many of the mem bers of Cabi net watched the CBC documentary that was on about a week ago on mental health because the mental health issue was something I discussed with the Minister of Health last year in Estimates.

I pointed out to them that the Saskatchewan model deliv ers health care to more people, deinstitutionalized, more effective, more cost efficient and better for the people of Saskatchewan than our system. That was demonstrated in spades by the CBC documentary, wherein Saskatchewan they spent $50 million to deliver a higher quality mental health delivery service, versus $1 00 million to deliver mental health through the Manitoba system located in Selkirk and in Brandon East, through two major institutions. Now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Premier says that proper health care means deinstitutionalization.

I simply ask the Premier: Does he have the courage of one of his predecessors and mentors in the CCF who in Saskatchewan when he represented the seat of Weyburn where 2,600 mental patients were housed in one building, the then Premier, T.C. Douglas, decided that it was time to deinstitutional ize and virtually shut that major employer in Weyburn down? Will the Premier have the courage, for the benefit and the betterment of del ivery of health care in Manitoba, to make a similar decision to wind down the institution at Selkirk and provide community health care? I suggest not, Mr.

Deputy Speaker , because that Premier does not have 139 the courage to do that. He doesn't have the political will. He would sooner squander $100 million when $50 million would deliver better service on the Saskatchewan model. Now you ask us, where are the examples of cost saving? They have been demonstrated to you time and time again by members of the Opposition, and time and time again, you refuse to follow them. So do not blame other people for your financial problems; you have created them yourselves and you refuse to solve them yourselves because you don't have: (

a) the abil ity; (

b) the understanding; and (

c) the courage to do it. You are a tired and gutless group of would-be pretenders at government. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I regret to have to say that in that strong a terminol ogy, but that is what we have - a spinel ess crew over there willing to blame everyone but the mselves for the financial problems of this province. Farmers will go broke because this province cannot assist them.

I simply tell anyone over there listening that in the Province of Alberta right now, because of government support programs to agriculture, they pay between eight and nine cents per litre for farm consumed diesel fuel and gasoline, as compared to 23 to 27 cents in Manitoba. That's the difference. That is the difference between a farmer in Alber ta and a farmer in Manitoba. In Al berta, a livestock feeder receives a subsidy - and correct me if I'm wrong - of $20-plus dollars per tonne for every tonne of feed grain, and what do they do that for?

To support the beef and hog and poultry industries in Alberta and protect the jobs in the processing of those products in Alberta. What do we do? We bring in a beef income program that sends all the cattle to Ontario and we see Canada Packers close. That's what we do in Manitoba. I also want to point out that in Al berta they have a reduction program on fertilizer where about $40 per tonne basis a tonne of ammonia is rebated to the farmers. That lowers their cost of nitrogen fertilizer products significantly compared to us in Manitoba.

This Minister of Agriculture and this Premier will stand there and froth at the mouth and blame the Federal Government for every ill and woe in the agricultural community when the Federal Government - Lord knows they could do more, I've said that many times - have stil l put in a billion dolla rs of Canadian grain support program. Western grain stabilization is a major drain on the Federal Treasury as is covering the deficit on the Canadian Wheat Board from last year's Pools, and this government sits and does nothing and watches farmers go broke and family farms be decimated.

Then they tell us that The Family Farm Protection Act is providing a great leadership in the agricultural lending field. That will cause singly the more demise of family farms than any other piece of legislation we have seen in this House, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and they sit back and say we are doing all we can. They are doing nothing except abandoning and turning their backs on rural Manitoba, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have been through a fairly consistent effort and I've tried to be as decent with the Minister responsible for MPIC as I could be.

I spoke to him approximately a month ago about the problems that one of my constituents is having, namely, Carman Agri, who thr ough various circumstances, mainly

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 circumstances at the control of MP IC, find themselves facing financial ruin and disaster. I tried to impress upon the Minister responsible for MPIC the seriousness of their circumstance. But, you know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, unfortunately the Memb er for Gimli, as Minister responsible, chose what I now describe as the Mack ling syndr ome. He decided to belie ve the bureaucrats and abandon another Manitoban and that's what he did.

He belie ved the bureaucrats at Autopac and now he refuses to defend Carman Agri from a very serious financial situation because bureaucrats with the NOP come first; the people of Manitoba come second. That is the tyranny of this government. They will not lis ten to the ordinary citizens of Manitoba and, above all, Mr. Deputy Speaker, they will not listen to problems drawn to their attention by any member on this side of the House.

We have to beat them into the ground and prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt that the bureaucrats and the Crown corps are wrong before they jerking ly, haltin gly, take some action to stop the hemorrhage of money and the destruction of business in Manitoba. We are now in the case of another circumstance of a Crown corporation wherein a Manitoba business is being unfairly treated, treated dastardly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and the Minister responsible stands by and accepts the word carte blanche of his bureaucrats in Autopac. Mr.

Deputy Speak er, I just want to point out for members opposite, sort of the scenario that's happened with Carman Agri. It involves around an accident that occurred in Saskatchewan on July 3, 19 81. That, Sir, is almost five-and-a-half years ago. Sometime in 1982, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Dr. Rieger, the person hit by the Carman Agri truck - and Carman Agri was at fault; their driver of their truck was at fault in the accident, there is no question about that - but sometime in 1982, Dr. Rieger, the other party in the accident, the injured, initiated a court proceeding.

At that point in time, MP IC was informed and they retained the services of a law firm in Saskatchewan to defend this claim agains t Carman Agri. MPIC retained that firm in December of 19 82. In June 1986, June 3 or 4 to be exact, this particular claim went to trial. Now bear in mind that MPIC has been aware of this pending court case since sometime in 19 82 because they retained legal counsel in Saskatchewan in December of 1982. So, in June of 1986 here we are at trial. Now I ask you, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, would it not be reasonable to assu me, put yourself in this circumstance, you have an accident in Saskatchewan, it's your fault, you are covered by Autopac, you know that you were at fault in the accident but nothing has transpired. You have heard nothing further from it. I'm told the people that were injured were in hospital for about an hour­ and-a-half and released after the accident, so would not your tendency be, Sir, to let that be the least thing in your mind, as to whether anyth ing further is happening? I think you would agree because it wasn't a major accident by any report I've had.

There was no loss of life. In December'82 they retain a lawyer to defend Carman Agri.

In June of '86 Carman Agri finds out by phone call from a Regina Leader Post reporter that they have been sued for $3.4 million and they don't even know they have been in court because Autopac, 140 MPIC, who retained a lawyer in December of 1982, prepared a case in defence of Carman Agri for three­ and-a-half years and never told them, never asked them, never asked for advice on how the defence should go, never let them kno w they were being sued.­ (l nterjection)- My honourable friend, the Minister responsible says, that's the way it is supposed to be, Autopac operated the way they were supp osed to operate.

Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I wonder how many other Manitobans are currently being sued and Autopac has not informed them and they don't even know. How many other Manitobans are in the Carman Agri position, faced with the prospect with a phone call that you are on the hook for a milli on-and-a-half dollars, without even knowing you are in court? My honourable friend over there is smiling, the Minister responsible for Autopac. I presume he thinks this is fun ny. I don't think that this is funny at all.

He has tried to wiggle and twist his way out of this and defend his bureaucrats by saying, well, they sent a letter out. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this is what he has told me and I have a copy of that letter and I just hope that I've got it in my file. I hope that I didn't give it to the press this morning. But at any rate, this letter is registered. No, I'm afraid I gave my last copy away. It was in quite high demand this morning. But Mr. Deputy Speaker, this letter is sent out on June 6 by registered mail, is received June 9, 19 86. Well, do you know what's going on meanwhile?

The letter was mailed June 6, the trial started either June 4 or June 3 and finished June 7 with the award of $3.4 million at the time and he is sending a letter out telling them that their $1 million of insurance may not be adequate. And that is the first notification they have ever got from MPIC that I'm aware of, that the Minister is aware of, that Carman Agri is aware of, that they are supposed to defend themselves receiving the letter June 9 and the courts have made their decision on June 7. And this Minister considers that to be adequate warning for Carman Agri to defend themselves.

The Minister says, well, I want to assure you because we were under no pretention that there was onl y a million dolla rs of coverage. We knew it was $2 million and he describes the error identifying the coverage in the June 6 letter to Carman Agri. I'll read what he says in his letter to me of March 4. "There has never been any confusion as to the amount of coverage being $2 million. While the letter sent to Carman Agri June 6, 1986 showed coverage at $1 million, this was nothing more than a typographical error." Well, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, if they can't even get the insurance coverage right in a letter informing Carman Agri that they are being sued, which arrives after the court decision, are we now to assume that they have competently represented Carman Agri? Ask yourself that, Mr. Minister when you can't even get it right in a letter. Are you expecting Carman Agri to believe that you and Autopac and the law firm you retained in Saskatchewan have competently represented them when you can't get information right in a letter? Now can you understand the concern that Carman Agri and Dennis Lesage, the owner, has?

I have to assure you, Mr. Minister, you are putting him through emotional hell right now. And I don't know how you feel about

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 that but I feel a little bit saddened that a man, because of no fault of his own, finds out that Autopac never even took the courtesy for a three-and-a-half year period to inform him that he is being sued and then he gets laid on with a $700,000 court settlement in the final judgment and you, Mr. Minister, say that they acted properly? Mr. Minister, if you were in that position I'd even be defending you. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The member knows that the practice of the House is to address the Chair. MR. D. ORCHARD: Yes, I am addressing the Chair, through you, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, and I ask you, if this Minister was in the similar situation to Mr. Lesage and Carman Agri, if he would be so forthright in saying Autopac represented me correctly. If he says that, he isn't as smart as, well, if he ever said that I would seriously que stion his ability to sit as a Minister responsible for MPIC. Because no person, no person could ever make the statement he's made that Autopac acted responsibly, given the circumstances Carman Agri has found themselves in. Now, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, because of this I brought this up in conversation three weeks ago without getting the media involved because I tried to work this out. I warned this Minister that his bureaucrats, I said, do not get sucked in by your bureaucrats like Mr. Mackling has in MTS, and I tried to point out to them the seriousness of the situation and I hoped that by taking it to him personally that he would do something on behalf of a citizen of Manitoba.

But it appears that this Minister has got the Mackling syndrome and he is accepting carte blanche whatever his bureaucrats in Autopac tell him.- (I nterjection)- I beg your pardon? Mr. Deputy Speaker, he says I hope I don't do anything to prejudice the appeal process. i wish the Minister had had lawyers in place defending Carman Agri so we would never be in an appeal process because do you know what this Minister told me by telephone when I first brought this to his attention? He said, well, do you know what, we never contacted Carman Agri, we didn't think we had to.

We only belie ved the claim would be $60,000 at most and it ended up to be $3.4 million subsequently reduced to $2. 7 million. And this is the advice that he gave me three weeks ago and he still believes those same bur eaucrats are giving him straight goods? - (I nterjection)-You've got the Mackling Syndrome, Mr. Minister, and unless you pay attention you are going to ruin a business in Carman. Why do you defend bureaucrats at the expense of ordinary Manitobans? Those ordinary Manitobans you promised to stand up for?

Will you stand up for them in the constituency of Pembina, as the Premier has done in the constituency of Selkirk? That's all I ask. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the circumstance that we are at right now is MPIC, because they believed this award was too high and because it was achieved through, again in the Minister's words, two surprise witnesses that the lawyer in Saskatchewan for the plaintiff brought to the court - I don't know too much about courts and court proceedings, but I think if you've got reasonable legal representation and somebody comes to trial with a surprise witness or two surprise witnesses, "according 141 to the Minister," and these surprise witnesses provide very damaging, obviously, information to your case - that if you're the defence lawyer, I think the first thing you'd want to do is ask for a stay of proceedings so that you can develop a cross-examination of these surprise expert witnesses, and indeed bring ones in of your own to protect your client, Carman Agri, but that didn't happen.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, that did not happen. The law firm in Saskatchewan allowed the trial to finish without a stay of proceedings and obviously those surprise witnesses, unrefuted, were very detrimental in the outcome of that case, and detrimental to Carman Agri. Now had Carman Agri known they were being sued, I offer you this circumstance - they they may well have been represented in the Saskatchewan courts by their own lawyers.

Their own lawyers probably then would have asked for a stay of proceedings that the lawyer that MPIC retained did not, and given a stay of proceedings we might never be in this jam, but that's only speculation. But, Mr. Deputy Speaker , the reason I'm asking this Minister to have MPIC cover the entire court award is: No. 1, they think they can have it reduced in the appeal process; and, No. 2, it's on compassionate grounds because Carman Agri had no opportunity, no knowledge and no ability to defend themselves.

It was Autopac and their Saskatchewan lawyer , retained in 19 82 December, that for three-and-a-half years, three-and­ a-half years developed a case in defence of Carman Agri and never even informed them they were doing it, never even asked them for an opinion on how the accident went. I find that totally unacceptable but this Minister says, well that's normal proceedings. That is not normal, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that is very abnormal. (Ma dam Speaker in the Chair.) Now, I ask the Minister to have MPIC put the entire Letter of Credit up for $2.7 million.

I submit to this Minister that if Autopac is right in that they can have the award reduced, they're not out five cents, absolutely no cost. But, Madam Speaker, what is the circumstance if they don't do that? Wel l, the circumstance is that Carman Agri right now is going back to Saskatchewan; they've already been out there once and they must go back, I believe, March 23, this month, and they must prove their worthiness to come up with a Letter of Credit for $700,000, and that I have to tell you is not possible to be done.

Even though they are a very successful business, very few businesses of any size in Manitoba are able to offer, like that, at the blink of an eye a $700,000 Letter of Credit. If they don't come up with it, the plaintiff's lawyer in Saskatchewan, Dr. Rieger's lawyers in Saskatchwan , Madam Speake r, have the perfect right, legal right, to enforce the judgment and put Carman Agri out of business.

So here's the scenario, we've got the Autopac lawyers telling this Minister that we think we can win the case in Saskatchewan, have the award reduced so there's no impact on Carman Agri, the $2 million liability will be sufficient to cover it. But in the meantime, by not providing the Letter of Credit and taking Carman Agri off the hook, what we can see is Carman Agri bankrup ted and then have the judgment reduced so they had no financial obligation whatsoever. Then what happens, Madam Speaker? Well

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 I suggest to you that legal chaos will break loose because there will be countersuits flying left, right and centre . And who's going to pay for those? It won 't be this Minister. It'll be MPIC and the next rate increase for every driver in Manitoba. My request is on compassionate grounds. This Minister has a moral obligation to Carman Agri because his bureaucrats did not represent Carman Agri properly in the courts of Saskatchewan. They have a moral obligation to provide the Letter of Credit which they cannot do; Carman Agri cannot do themselves.

The precedent was set in 1984 by the Premier, by the Cabinet in the case of - we've got to get it exactly right because I've been misquoting the name of that firm - Daerwood Machine Works Limited in the Premier's own constituency.

We just heard in questioning today the now-Minister of Business Development and Tourism, the Minister now responsible for this - I asked her, because the Minister responsible for Autopac today says: "Autopac has no legal obligation to cover the $700,000 debt owed to the courts by Carman Agri as a result of that judgment." He says they've got no legal obligation; therefore, they don't do it. I asked the Minister of Business Development and Tourism today : Did you have a legal obligation to provide the $60,000 to Daerwood Machine Works Limited, a company in the Premier's constituency?

And I'll paraphrase her answer. She said: "Well, our government doesn't just do only what is legal; we do what is morally correct ." I appreciated that answer, Madam Speaker, Carman Agri appreciated that answer, because although Autopac has no legal obligation to cover their Letter of Credit, as the government had no legal obligation to provide $60,000 to Daerwood Machine Works, I ask him to do it on moral grounds. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Oh no, no, the Minister of Education told you why. MR. D.

ORCHARD: He said that there were two sets of moral principles - one that applies in the constituency of Selkirk and one that applies in the constituency of Pembina - presumably because the constituency of Selkirk is NDP and Pembina is Conservative, and Conservative businessmen don't deserve the same kind of moral compassion that NDP constituency businessmen deserve. Now that's the kind of caring government that this NDP represents today . Is that where we're down to in the Province of Manitoba? That if you're not NDP you're out? Is that what we're saying?

The Minister of Culture smiles that knowing smile, saying yes, that's the way it is - that's the name of the game in NDP Manitoba . That's shocking, Madam Speaker, that is shocking. If you read the Ombudsman's Report on Daerwood Machine Works, you will find that bureaucrats in the Business Development Branch of government provided very questionable business advice, and that led to the demise or the potential demise, or I understand the demise of Daerwood Machine Works.

Although there was no legal obligation, Madam Speaker, there was no legal obligation, there was deemed to be a moral obligation to act on this matter because it could become a public issue. That is what I understand is the reason 142 the government moved to bail out Daerwood Machine Works. Madam Speaker, again, I simply say that there is no legal obligation in the case of Carman Agri either, but there's definitely a moral obligation.

If this government can't live up to moral obligations and apply them evenly to businesses across this province, when bureaucrats provide bad advice and do not operate in an equitable and reasonable fashion on behalf of Manitobans , then I think government has a moral obligation to correct those inequities by the bureaucracy. That's what I've asked the Premier to do. I've asked him to do it because the Minister responsible refuses to do it. He sticks by the story of his bureaucrats . I simply want to reiterate again as I did at the press conference this morning, we're not talking about one individual in Carman .

We're talking about a business that has six full-time employees , five of those employees are family men and that is their sole income. So we're talking about the support of five families in Carman . In the peak season Carman Agri provides employment for another eight part-time employees. It is a significant number of people that derive their livelihood from the operation of Carman Agri.

I put on the record , Madam Speaker, that Carman Agri , being a fuel and fertilizer and farm supply dealership and custom applicator, is a very competitive business and because of their presence in the Carman and area market, they have no doubt saved the farmers in that community untold hundreds of thousands of dollars in lowered fuel costs, fertilizer costs, chemical costs.

Now, Madam Speaker, this government doesn't understand rural Manitoba, I know, but that is significant to have Carman Agri remain as a viable business, and that's what I'm attempting to get the government to do, to live up to their moral obligation and assure that Carman Agri is not forced into receivership by a court action in Saskachewan, which was beyond their control and influence. I don't think it's an unreasonable request, Madam Speaker.

But, Madam Speaker, I simply want to close on this note - that if members opposite in the government believe that they can run a government using two standards for moral obligation - one in Selkirk Constituency which is NDP, and another one in Pembina Constituency which is Progressive Conservative - then indeed, Madam Speaker, we have got the worst government that this province has ever seen.

If political affiliation and political presence in a rid ing represented by government is the ultimate consideration to receiving fair treatment and equitable treatment by government, then we no longer live in a democracy, Madam Speaker. We live in almost a dictatorship of pushing and forcing one party's philosophy on all the people of Manitoba by threat of, if you're not with us, then you're against us and you get nothing from this government . Madam Speaker, that is a shamefu l state of affairs to have this beautiful province of ours come to.

But I'm afraid it's here, alive and well, in the very perverse and shallow mindset that sits around the NDP Cabinet table and the way they direct the affairs of the Province of Manitoba, one set of morals for Selkirk, another and entirely different set of morals for Pembina Constituency. That , Madam Speaker, is shameful and should not be tolerated.

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for the Status of Women. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'm delighted to be able to speak during the Speech from the Throne Debate on a day in which many women across the Province of Manitoba are marking International Women's Day. I heard at the beginning of question period during my Ministerial Statement, Madam Speaker, comments from the members opposite that they would have liked to have received a rose as well.

Well, Madam Speaker, I can assure members opposite that we will provide roses next year and hope that, with that gift and that significant mark of this important day, they will be inspired perhaps to raise an issue once around status of women and the important matter of equality between men and women. Madam Speaker, it's clear that members opposite give very little sigr :ticance to this important, historical moment. Let me remind members opposite of the meaning of this day.

Madam Speaker, this day has become a symbol to women throughout the world in their efforts to ensure that the places and the provinces and the countries in which we live are ones which are organized around the principles of fairness, equity, justice and equality for all. Madam Speaker , 130 years ago this Sunday, on March 8, 1857, women of the garment industry came out on the streets in New York and raised their banners in opposition to the cruel working conditions in the needle trade sweatshops.

These women were concerned about bringing an end to the sweatshops, and they were also concerned about pay equity, and they were also coricerned about child care . Madam Speaker, 130 years later, we salute those courageous women and pay tribute to those women who carried on the battle here in Manitoba. In particular, we remember the courage and conviction of Mary Beth Dolin who fought so hard for issues pertaining to equality. We celebrate the achievements of, and on behalf of, women and we commit ourselves - I hope all of us commit ourselves - to further action on behalf of women.

Madam Speaker, the achievements in this area are not insignificant. Manitoba has a tradition for leading the way and setting national standards . On January 27, 1916, Manitoba women became the first women in Canada to gain the vote. Since that day, many firsts have been achieved .

Manitoba was the first province to introduce the concept of community property in family law, the first province to direct police to lay charges in the case of spouse abuse , the first province to commit itself to implementation of pay equity and, Madam Speaker, the best record for quality , accessible child care anywhere in the country. Madam Speaker , my colleagues and I are proud of our accomplishments, but we are not here to boast . We are not here to take all the credit, and we're not here to say our work has been done.

Madam Speaker, we are here, at least on this side of the House, to advance the status of women, because it is intrinsic to our beliefs and because it is our hope for the future of our society. 143 We are here to recognize , today in particular, that the real push for change has come from women themselves . We are here, Madam Speake r, to say we don't necessar ily have all the answers . We do have more to learn; we have a lot more to do. We may make mistakes.

We may sometimes take a step backwards but, Madam Speaker , we are intent on moving steadfastly and steadily forward toward the goal of equality and toward a society where every individual, irrespective of sex , shall have the same practical opport unities, not only for education and employment , but also in principle the same resp onsibility for his or her own maintenance, as well as a shared responsibility for the upbringing of the children and the upkeep of the home. (Mr. Deputy Speaker in the Chai r.) Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is not only the Member for River Heights who is listening to the people of Manitoba.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, members on this side of the House have a solid record for listening and consulting with the people of Manitoba. All of my colleagues have been across this province on many tours. I've followed in those footsteps and completed a tour of rural Manitoba , meeting with women's groups and recreation groups throughout Manitoba in the Towns of Carman, Dauphin, Brandon , Portage, Thompson, Beausejour, and the list goes on. By listening, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have a very clear understanding and appreciation of the needs of rural Manitoba, the needs of farm women .

Through that process of listening and consulting, we will continue to do our best to put in place programs and policies that respond to the needs of those Manitobans . Now that may be, in the mind of the Member for River Heights, rather dull and boring, but I would rather be dull than disinterested, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I believe that the achievement of equality requires dogged persistence, requires commitment, determination and conscious deliberate action, and it requires the collective action by all members of this House.

That's why the silence of members opposite , particularly from the Official Opposition, on issues pertaining to the equality of women is so worrisome . I get worried when the members opposite seem to be more interested in asking about roads than people . I get worried when, even on a day like today, marking International Women's Day, not a single question was raised on matters pertaining to equality.

I get worried when the Leader of the Opposition's Address to the Speech on the Throne - if my arithmetic is correct - is over 13,000 words in length , but nowhere, not anywhere in that lengthy address does it include the phrase equality for women. Mr. Deputy Speaker, there is a place in the Leader of the Opposition 's speech where he touches on issues pertaining to women, where he refers to the Advisory Council on the Status of Women's Report on the Jobs Fund and quotes directly from it, but concludes that all of the money in the Jobs Fund should be directed to farmers.

Not one mention, not one suggestion that resources be directed and programs be put in place to meet the needs of women. I think that's appalling and disgraceful on the part of the Leader of the Opposition .

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 I wonder at times like this , Mr. Deputy Speaker , if the Leader of the Opposition is afraid to mention the phrase, "equality for women ," for fear that it will remind the people of Manitoba of his membership in a squash club that excludes women. Even more prob lematic than that, is it because members opposite don't have a policy on equality, or is it because such a concept is the very opposite of the philosophy of conservatism? I hope, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that someday soon , and the sooner the better, that we will hear a policy statement from members opposite on the issue of equality.

I hope that soon both members of the Official Opposition and the Member for River Heights will provide us with a clear and unequivocal statement in support of pay equity. I hope, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in this Session we will hear for once some positive sugges tions from members opposite for advancing the status of women . We, on this side of the House, are certainly counting on the support of all members of the House . The women of Manitoba are counting on it and the future of our society depends on it.

To start with, let me make a suggestion for members opposite where they might be able to help in advancing the status of women and improving the situation for all Manitoba women. To start with, members opposite could join us in fighting the random slashing of the Federal Government and specifically the 5 percent cutback to women's programs under Secretary of State ; a cutback, Mr. Deputy Speaker, which has resulted in a 5 percent cutback to the Immigrant Women 's Association of Manitoba, a similar cutback to the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women, and the list goes on and on. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, if members opposite are committed to the issues pertaining to women and to achieving equality in our society, I hope they will join us in fighting those cuts and in calling for national action and legislation in the areas of labour policy, spousal abuse, day care and the list goes on and on. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we, on this side of the House, have been calling upon the Federal Government and all other provinces across this country to join in a concerted effort to improve the status of women.

To date, our efforts have produced little results, but I'm sure that if members opposite join with us we will perhaps be able to move the Federal Government in a positive direction that will benefit women across this country. Mr. Deputy Spea ker, I am proud of the fact that this province and our Premier was the only Premier in this country who refused to endorse a meaningless, shallow document purporting to be a framework for economic equality for women tabled at the First Ministers ' Conference in Vancouver last November . Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I'd like to table that document so that members opposite may find it a useful resource in their efforts to understand the issues and join with us in fighting the trends that are now so apparent in this country and ensuring greater equality. Maybe the Member for Kirkfield Park and the Member for River Heights would find the document particularly useful as they develop their strategies around status of women issues. Mr. Deputy Speaker, if members opposite would be interested in reading this entire document, I would be happy to provide more copies. 144 But let me read, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, briefly from this document to illustrate the difficulties we have had in moving the Federal Government to a policy of reasonable and progressive approach to wom en's issues. To quote from page 2, Mr. Deputy Speake r: " A significant actio n plan is needed to build upon the commitments and strategies outlined in a pap er previously presented to the 1985 Halifax First Ministers' Conference." Th is prog ress has not, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in Manitoba 's views been achieved.

"To retain credibility with the women of Canada, First Ministers must endorse and commit themselves to action, not to repeated assessments of the status quo, followed by infinitesimal policy changes in a limited context." Mr. Deputy Speaker , members on this side of the House support a comprehensive and coordinated strategy for dealing with the position women find themselves in our society, unlike every other government in this country .

Whether if they be Conservative or Social Credit or Liberal, we have stood firm against a policy that has been empty in terms of action and limited to a single-focused app roach to this very serious issue. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I ask members opposite how they can sit back and let other governments in this country, to which they are affiliated, propose a stategy for dealing with the situation fac ing women that does not deal with the issue of child care in this country?

Given the rhetoric that we have heard from that side, given the talk about increased spaces, let us hear for once from members opposite how they will join with us in fighting for a national child care action. Mr. Deputy Speaker , t his week I had the pleasure of introducing, for First Reading, legislation to entrench the existence of the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women, legislation that would establish its permanency as an advisory body to government on matters of concern to women .

I remind members opposite that the Advisory Council has had a very successful three-year record in recommending to government on policies, programs and legislative matters. It also has a very solid record in concerted efforts to consult on an ongoing basis with the women 's community throughout the Province of Manitoba . I urge members opposite to read this Triennial Report which provides very useful information and a detailed account of the important role that this council provides on behalf of all Manitobans. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, Manitoba women have a long history of effective commun ity organizing on behalf of all women , and the continuing presence of the counc il in the commu nity, along with a truly representat ive and committed council membership, has certainly been a prime example of effective leadership .

The integration of women's concerns on the agendas of all policy-making processes is a goal upheld by this council, and I look forward to the day in this society when equality of status and opportunity is afforded to all of our citizens and when, in effec t, the work of the Advisory Council and the Advisory Council itself has become superfluous . But, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the fact of the matter is that separate efforts, concerted spec ial plans and separate women's organizations are going to be needed for a good while yet. We only have to look around this Chamber, Mr. Deputy Speaker, eight women in total.

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 Such underrepresentation by women in the political life of this province is truly a sad commentary on our political system, and I believe must be add ressed by all political parties and by all members of this House. I believe, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I hope all members in this House will share this, that more women in this Chamb er brings with it the hope of new ideas, higher decorum or greater decorum in the House, and a higher calibre of politics. You know, Mr. Deputy Speaker , there is a saying that true equality means women can be as mediocre and as incompetent as men. MR. D.

SCOTT: Look at Margaret Thatcher. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would never in my wildest dreams suggest that anyone in this House is incompetent or mediocre, but I would sugg est that you will find as a rule that women in this House have a great capacity for listening before jumping to conclusions, for respecting different opinions and for avoiding name calling and rude interruptions - (In terjection)-Mr. Deputy Speaker, I said, as a rule. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I want to say, as I said in my first address to the Speech from the Throne, that we are proud of the fact that we have at this point in our history the only woman Speaker in any government across this coun tr y. We are encouraged by her determination to achieve some order, decorum and human courtesy in this House. I hope that she will never hesitate to remind all members in this Chamber that this is not a neighbourhood sandbox. Mr. Deputy Speaker , the Speech from the Throne is about human decency, about justice and fairness. It's about fairness, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, for all Manitobans: fairness for women, fairness for visible minorities, fairness for all disadvantaged groups. It reflects our determination to build a society that is truly rich with our diversities, truly open to all opportunities, and truly free of intolerance, racism and sexism. Just as I was disappointed that members opposite ha ve said li ttle about equa li ty for women, I am disappointed that they have said absolutely nothing about the issues facing our ethnocultural communities.

I hope that absence of any comment, a failure to raise the issues of those important communities at any point since this Session opened is not a refle ction, is not an indication, that members opposite believe that our cult ural diversity, our heritage, is not important. I urge members opposite, if that is the case, to reconsider their approach and to consider the words of a Manitoba author by the name of Maara Haas. To paraphrase her, let me say the following. Forget your heritage never. It goes where you go. It sleeps where you sleep. Brush your teeth, and the memory stays in your mouth.

Wash your hands, and it's there in every pore of your body and soul. Mr. Deputy Speak er, it's our commitment to respect the cultural diversity of our province, and to remember that it is impossible to forget our roots and our heritage. Our commitment to changes which will benefit all of society must include our assurance that, when our visions and our voices are raised in the economic, social and political decision-making processes, all of our visions, all of our beliefs and all of our voices participate. I bel ieve, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that this is one of the great challenges of our time. 145 The nature, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, of the debate on a multicultural society has changed dramatically in recent times. Manitoba communities, in particular the Manitoba lntercultural Council, have emphasized that multiculturalism means much more than festivals, museums and artifacts, and recognizes the importance of the preservation of our history and our heritage, but asserts that all of us are committed to ensuring equality of economic and social opportunity in every aspect of our society. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, a day does not pass in this country when we do not hear of some incident of racism, when we do not hear about anti-Semitic gestures, generalizations about Native peoples, broad sweeping statements about Filipinos, Chinese or Vietnamese or about immigrants taking away jobs from Canadians. I'm sure members opposite were as appalled as I was this week when one of our "leading newspapers" headed an

article that ethnic clubs, in very general terms, were involved in illegal gambling. We reject that kind of broad-sweeping generaliz ation, and call upon all institutions in our society to respect our cultural differences and to translate that respect into action on all fronts. Because knowing that racism does exist provides the challenge for all of us, for government, for the ethnocultural community and for society as a whole, to raise those issues to the top of our political agendas and to ensure that special and sensitive programs and activities are put in place to address them. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, in that context, my colleagues and I are deeply distressed with the federal news of a tightening up of Canada's immigration policy. This movement to close our doors to the many refugees who looked to Canada as a country with an exemplary reputation for taking in those people in our global villa ge who requir e refuge from polit ical or economic prosecution is a disheartening regression in Canadian history. This new federal policy, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, has once again resurrected those myths I had believed were long buried, the attitude that an open-door policy only takes jobs away from Canadians, and the fact that the ever­ present veneer of racial intolerance is never very far below the surface. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Government of Manitoba has long recognized that Manitoba, like the rest of Canada, needs people and that our immigration policies should recognize the success of those who built this country and eased the way for new arrivals who will help us shape our future.

The challenges facing all of us are awesome, but what gives me great encouragement is that in tackling the task ahead we have a solid foundation already in place here in Manitoba, a solid foundation upon which we can build. We have come to recognize the government's responsibility in all of this policy area is to ensure that we in Manitoba have a defined and a meaningful multicultural polic y.

With responsi bili ty for multiculturalism in this province, I believe that the devel opment of this polic y begins with a basic commitment to a shared un derstan ding of a multicultural society, and demands based on cultural, racial and lin guistic diversity, as well as a commitment to economic and social integration.

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 Mr. Deputy Speaker, as members opposite will know from the Speech from the Throne, our government is committed to a provincial, public multicultural policy , and the development of such a policy will be a priority for me and for all of my colleagues in this coming year. Our commitment to meeting the needs of all Manitobans, particularly with those who are disadvantaged, begins with the provision of basic social services and a commitment to maintain and expand such services in the face of out-of-control slashing by the Federal Government .

But our commitment goes beyond this, and it gives equal priority to the quality of life in Manitoba, for we know that the women of this province, the ethnocultural peoples of this province, and every other disadvantaged group in this province, they fight for bread, Mr. Deputy Speaker , but they fight for roses too. Mr. Deputy Speaker, quality of life is an issue that this government is committed to.

It is committed to enhancing the quality of life for all Manitobans, but particulary for those who are more vulnerable to deeply engrained discrimination; and my portfolios, in the areas of Culture, Status of Women, and Multiculturalism present very important challenges in this regard . Strengthening the community identity in Manitoba through the recently announced Community Places Program is one of many examples of this government's commitment to quality of life initiatives.

In the recent tour that I just mentioned at the outset of my remarks, an underlying need was expressed for better facilities, for more attention to the quality of life in our province, and I am pleased that the Community Places Program provides a solid response to those concerns.

As members opposite know, Community Places is a four-year $40 million commitment which has been designed specifically to improve the quality of life and provide community benefits for all regions of our province . (Madam Speaker in the Chair.) Madam Speaker, it is based on the premise that Manitoba's communities are strongest when people can work together to build better places where they can go to learn, to be cared for, to work , to play and to grow.

The tour that I undertook throughout the province a few months ago also enabled me to gauge pub lic opinion, attitudes and concerns, in preparation for a provincial policy statement on recreation which, as members opposite will know, was also outlined in the Speech from the Throne. While many of the members of this House may understand recreation in terms of fun and games, it is our intention to broaden that definition and to indicate very clearly that recreation and quality of life is very strongly related to the health and well-being of all our citizens.

In our view, recreation must be seen as a social service in the same way that health and education are considered social services. A provincial policy statement on recreation will benefit all communities throughout Manitoba by providing a clear understanding of what recreation and leisure encompass and will assist in developing local issues which can be priorized by the public. Last May, I had the privilege of announcing the proclamation of The Manitoba Heritage Resources Act, 146

an act which provides for greater protection in Manitoba's heritage resources. The joys of heritage preservation are that they make information about Manitoba's heritage and opportunities to learn first ­ hand the value of preserving our cultural environment and to ensure that it is accessible to all. The joys of heritage preservation are that they make information available to everyone and encourage the maintenanc e and preservation of our past, our roots, our history.

Part of preserving and strengthening our communities ensuring that citizens have access to all programs that enhance the quality of life, whether they be museums , whether they be archives, whether they be libraries; and in all areas my department is committed to improving services and strenghtening programs. In particular, let me indicate to all members opposite that my department is clearly committed and my colleagues are clearly committed to improving the standard of library services in both rural Manitoba and in the City of Winnipeg . Madam Speaker, let me touch on one other issue before I conclude.

I look forward in this coming year to the establishment of a Canada -Manitoba Cultura l Industries Development Office. This joint federal­ provincial initiative has been three years in the making and , once established, will foster increased production in Manitoba 's cultural industries. Initiatives such as this will assist all Canadians as we continue to strive to protect our identity and our culture . But in that regard, Madam Speaker, I am becoming more and more alarmed every day by the apparent trend in the free trade talks with respect to culture .

As a nation, we cannot afford to make any mistakes, for if our carefully established support structure to cultural industries finds its way onto the bilateral trade bargaining table, the very existence of our unique cultural identity is on the table as well. I am proud to be part of a government which consistently has taken the position that there must be nothing in a trade agreement which threatens or weakens Canada's cultural endeavours. I hope all members opposite will join with us in indicating strong opposit ion to the Federal Government in this regard.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, I continue to be a proud representative of St. Johns, a constituency which thrives on its diversity of cultures and backgrounds, a constituency with an exciting mix and a fine example of how communities can share and grow from cultural and linguistic diversity . Madam Speaker, the people in my constituency have a true sense of community , of collective action and of respect for individua l differences .

They enrich this government's commitment to a vision of Manitoba where economic and social life is grounded in the values of ecological balance , justice and equity for all and, like them, Madam Speaker, I wish for all Manitobans, peace on earth and good will to people. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. It's indeed a pleasure to rise and speak to the Speech from the Throne . First, I'd like to congratulate all members for returning to the House for this Second Session of the Thirty-

Thursday, 5 March, 1987 Third Leg islature. I would par ticularly like to cong ratulate the new Lieutenant-Governor who I am sure will serve his office with dignity and pride, as he did serve in this Legislature many years ago. I noticed that in the Throne Speech, on the first page, they highl ighted the visit of one Mr. Rick Hansen, the Man in Motion Tour.

And I will tell you, Madam Speaker, it was a moving experience for me to be in the Winnipeg Arena when he arrived there and everybody stood and acknowledged the tremendous feat that this young man was undertaking, the perseverance, dedication, his ability to draw to the attention of everybody the plight of the disabled.

I was also fortuna te to be in the Virden Arena on the night of February 1 when he arrived there, and the community, through various organizations, presented him with some $1 1 ,500, a very strong effort on the part of that community, and a community that should be congratulated for raising that kind of money. But I was somewhat disappointed the next day, in Elkhorn, February 2, when Mr. Rick Hansen was leaving the Province of Manitoba. I was proud to be there, many other people were there, and we were very proud to participate in that farewell from Manitoba.

But I was disappointed in the fact that nobody showed up from the government to wish that man farewell from this province. A MEMBER: We were at the opening, . . . MR. G. FINDLAY: You were at the opening; the Deputy Premier was at the entrance to Manitoba . A MEMBER: Why weren't you there? MR. G. FINDLAY: It wasn't in my riding. In my riding I attend, and I am not the government. On the program, the Minister of Urban Affairs was scheduled to be present that day.

The Minister of Urban Affairs did not show up for the ceremony, but they quickly had a press release out on the wire that he couldn't leave the city because there was a bit of a storm on. But that didn't stop a small plane with four people from the City of Winnipeg, who were organizers of that tour, including one Peggy Hayes, who is a paraplegic, coming from Winnipeg on a plane that day and participating in that farewell. Madam Speaker , in the first question period this Session, I raised a question to the Minister of Agriculture about the crisis in agriculture.

He acknowledged that there was a crisis, Madam Speaker, but further on in the questioning he refused to call the Agriculture Committee into session. Subsequently , we called for emergency debate which you