Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 17 (39th Legislature, 1st Session)

39-1-17

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LIX No. 17 – 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, October 10, 2007

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARCELINO, Flor Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P.

SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1055 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, October 10, 2007 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYER ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 11–The Children's Advocate's Enhanced Mandate Act (Various Acts Amended) Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), that Bill 11, The Children's Advocate's Enhanced Mandate Act (Various Acts Amended), be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, this bill transfers responsibility for reviews of child deaths where the parent received services under The Child and Family Services Act in the prev ious year from the Chief Medical Examiner to th e Children's Advocate's office and expands the scope of the review to include the standards and quality of other social services provided in addition to the services of child welfare agencies. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 21–The Housing and Renewal Corporation Amendment Act (Fund for Housing Revitalization) Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), that Bill 21, The Housing and Renewal Corporation Amendment Act (Fund for Housing Revitalization), be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, this legislation establishes a new fund for improving housing in areas of need, requires the Manitoba Housing Renewal Corporation to contribute its profits from suburban land development to this fund. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 210–The Workplace Safety and Health Amendment Act (Harassment in the Workplace) Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the MLA for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that Bill 210, The Workplace Safety and Health Amendment Act (Harassment in the Workplace); Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la sécurité et l'hygiène du travail (harcèlement dans le lieu de travail), be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, this bill would provide a win-win situation for employers and for workers to provide a better environment for people in the workplace. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] PETITIONS Cree Nation Child and Family Caring Agency Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

These are the reasons for this petition: Cree Nation Child and Family Caring Agency is a provincially mandated First Nation child protection and welfare agency. Operated under authority of the Provincial Ministry of Family Services and Housing, the mission is to help keep children, families and communities safe and secure and promote healthy citizen development and well-being. Lynn Lake is located 321 kilometres northwest of Thompson, Manitoba, on PR 391. There is no social worker living and working in the community.

The goals of the ministry are implemented from a distance and supplemented with infrequent and short visits from a social worker located in Thompson. The Lynn Lake Friendship Centre is a designated safe house and receiving home providing accommodations, services and care to children and families experiencing difficulties in a safe environment. The designated safe house and receiving home are forced closed at this time due to outstanding accounts payable due from Cree Nation Child and Family Caring Agency.

1056 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 10, 2007 Failure to have a social worker based in Lynn Lake providing immediate and sustained services and forcing the receiving home and designated safe house to close, children and families experiencing difficulties in Lynn Lake and area have their health and safety placed in great jeopardy. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Mackintosh) to consider re-staffing the social worker position(

s) in Lynn Lake in order to provide the needed services to northwestern Manitoba in a timely manner. To request the Minister of Family Services and Housing to consider mediating outstanding accounts payable due to the Lynn Lake Friendship Centre by Cree Nation Child and Family Caring Agency in order to allow the designated safe house and receiving home to resume regular operations and services and continued utilization of these operations and services. Signed by Claudette Joseyouner, Ken Hrechka, S. Shortt and many others. Mr.

Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Crocus Investment Fund Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The 2007 provincial election did not clear the NDP government of any negligence with regard to the Crocus Fund fiasco. The government needs to uncover the whole truth as to what ultimately led to over 33,000 Crocus shareholders to lose tens of millions of dollars.

The provincial auditor's report, the Manitoba Securities Commission's investigation, the RCMP investigation and the involvement of revenue Canada and our courts, collectively, will not answer the questions that must be answered in regard to the Crocus Fund fiasco. Manitobans need to know why the government ignored the many warnings that could have saved the Crocus Investment Fund. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Premier (Mr.

Doer) and his NDP government to co-operate in uncovering the truth in why the government did not act on what it knew and to consider calling a public inquiry on the Crocus Fund fiasco. Signed by Evelyn Teano, L. Ordinez, Joselito Javier and many, many other fine Manitobans. * (13:40) Retired Teachers' Cost of Living Adjustment Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

These are the reasons for this petition: Since 1977, Manitoba teachers have made contributions to the Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund Pension Adjustment Account (PAA) to finance a Cost of Living Adjustment (COLA) to their base pension once they retire. Despite this significant funding, 11,000 retired teachers and 15,000 active teachers currently find themselves facing the future with little hope of a meaningful COLA. For 2007, a COLA of only .63 percent was paid to retired teachers. The COLA paid in recent years has eroded the purchasing power of teachers' pension dollars.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to consider adequate funding for the PAA on a long-term basis to ensure that the current retired teachers, as well as all future retirees, receive a fair COLA. Signed by Laurena Leskiw, Leota Nelson, Jean Young and many, many Manitobans. [interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. For the guests in the gallery, there is to be no participation with the proceedings of this House and that also includes applauding. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to table the Intergovernmental Affairs Annual Report 2006-2007, as well as the Supplementary Information for Estimates 2007-2008.

October 10, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1057 Hon. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Minister of Healthy Living): Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to table the following 2007-2008 Expenditure Estimates for Manitoba Seniors and Healthy Aging Secretariat and for Healthy Child Manitoba. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the following reports: Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, 2007-2008 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Civil Service Commission, the Manitoba Employee Pensions and Other Costs and Manitoba Enabling Appropriations and Other Appropriations. Hon.

Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to table the 2007-2008 Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Culture, Heritage, Tourism and Sport. I'm also pleased to table the 2006-2007 Annual Report for Manitoba Sport. Lastly, I'm pleased to table the 2006-2007 Annual Report for Manitoba Culture, Heritage and Tourism. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us Bill and Corinne Gamble from Selkirk who are the guests of the honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mrs. Rowat). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. I'd also like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today a group of retired teachers. On behalf of all honourable members, I also welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Location of Hydro Power Line Reasons for West Side Mr.

Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I, too, would like to acknowledge Mr. and Mrs. Gamble for the role they played working with my colleague, the Member for Minnedosa (Mrs. Rowat), on grandparents' rights legislation. I would also like to acknowledge and thank those retired teachers who are with us today in the gallery. I am a proud product of our public school system from St. James-Assiniboia.

I know that I and other of my colleagues here and other members of this House are grateful for the commitment that Manitoba teachers have made to what is arguably the most important job in our society which is educating our young people. I know that the government has taken the position that they can't afford to get teachers to COLA in terms of their pension arrangements but somehow are able to afford beer and wine for the Premier's Economic Advisory Committee.

They are able to afford millions of dollars on the failed Spirited Energy campaign and, perhaps most shockingly, are able to throw away half a billion dollars building a power line on the western route as opposed to the eastern ro ute which makes far more sense. Now, Mr. Speaker, we know that the Premier's decision to throw away half a billion dollars on the west-side power line is going to add debt for future generations of Manitobans.

It's going to take away from the government's ability to fund other priorities, it's going to result in the loss of precious clean energy, and it's going to contribute to dirtier air for the citizens of the world. So what I am hearing from regular Manitobans, the question over and over again: Why would a premier allow himself to be bullied into making such a bad decision, such a strange and bizarre decision, for all Manitobans? I want to ask the Premier again, because he has provided a shifting buffet of reasons over the past couple of weeks for why he's made this very bad decision for all Manitobans.

It's a shifting buffet, and I wonder if the Premier can once more today, for the benefit of all Manitobans, provide clearly an explanation for this very bad decision. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the members opposite may or may not know this, but the debt ratio at Hydro was some 86 percent, which did not include the unfunded purchase of Centra Gas that had to be put into the books of Manitoba Hydro and the Manitoba government. It's now been lowered by six percentage points since we have been in office.

We also would point out that there have been many factors that we talked about from the Question Period on in terms of the rationales for making certain judgments. We also took the similar position in the election campaign. We were very clear about

1058 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 10, 2007 our views in the election campaign. We stated those views well before the campaign in terms of what we believed was doable and what wasn't doable. I would point out that this line, the transmission line, has not been built since it was recommended in the early 1990s. This option for us, it's not the do nothing option that we saw with the Conservative government for over nine years, Mr. Speaker, and we believe that there are many factors to arrive at this decision which we have articulated in previous Question Periods.

The member opposite raised other issues, such as the issue of teachers' retirement pension fund. I would point out the unfunded liability for teachers and civil servants were not contained on the books when we came into office. Those funds are now on the books. We also dealt with the unfunded liability in the teachers' pension fund of 1.5 billion. We have had ongoing discussions with the teachers' retired society, Mr. Speaker, but I would point out that the number–[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable First Minister has the floor. Mr.

Doer: I would point out that the number that the member used during the election campaign on the teachers' retirement fund was incorrect, inaccurate and therefore not sustainable. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, the Premier has exercised his right to not answer the question, and so we've got another non-answer to the question as to why he is throwing away half a billion dollars. What I was able to get out of the response was that I think what he is saying is that he favours privatizing Centra Gas and he's opposed to COLA for teachers.

Those were the only two things that I was able to get out of the response, but we've got a very important decision– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. * (13:50) Mr. McFadyen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We've got a very important decision by government overriding the advice of the experts at Manitoba Hydro, and it is going to cost future generations of Manitobans a minimum of half a billion dollars. It's going to contribute to more burning of coal, thereby damaging our environment, and it's going to result in the cutting of more trees.

We haven't been able to get a satisfactory response from the Premier. Yesterday he said that he was worried that we could have a situation the same as the Great Whale situation in Québec. I wonder if the Premier is aware that the Great Whale proposal was to dam and divert five rivers and flood an area equivalent to the state of Rhode Island–massive change, fundamental change to the ecosystem, flooding an area the size of Rhode Island, damming and diverting five rivers.

I wonder if he's comparing his decision to run a line through the woods on the west side rather than a line through the woods on the east side to Great Whale and if he wants to reconsider that phony excuse for this outrageous decision. Mr. Doer: I would point out, Mr. Speaker, that we were very clear in the election campaign that the other options were more expensive, but they were more doable. The one option the member opposite talks about is a line that is longer and therefore more expensive, but it's also a line where more right of way is already in existence for the provincial government and for the Crown.

It's an area that has clearly been developed over the last 90 to 100 years that has mining adjacent to it, has forestry operations adjacent to it, has roads. It has existing rights of way for transmission as opposed to the east side which has a considerable amount of undisturbed boreal forest. I know the member opposite wants the shrink. You know, I shrunk the boreal forest. He wants to shrink the proposal from 42,000 square kilometres to 8,000 square kilometres, but that will not therefore protect places like Poplar River. We've had discussions on this for a number of months with people living in the area.

I would also point out, Mr. Speaker, the issue of dealing with customers, and this is something that members opposite don't know anything about– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: The only thing members opposite know about Hydro is mothball, oppose, mothball, oppose, mothball. They mothballed Conawapa; we built it. We negotiated Conawapa; they mothballed it.

They're the mothball party, and they wouldn't know anything about customers b ecause they never sold a megawatt in the last 30 years to places like Minnesota which contributes $600 million a year to the revenue of Hydro that allows us to keep Hydro rates the lowest in North America under our government.

October 10, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1059 Mr. McFadyen: We're used to the Premier flip-flopping from one day to the next. I've never actually heard him flip-flop within a single response to a question. On the one hand, he's saying that power sales to Minnesota will be jeopardized as a result of this decision. On the other hand, he says that he just concluded a power sale to Minnesota and there were no issues with Manitoba Hydro or the decision. He was already out on the record on the issue of the hydro line. They announced in November a $2.2 billion sale to Xcel, Mr.

Speaker, and then in the course of the election campaign–speaking of potential markets, there was a great story in the Winnipeg Free Press announcing that the Premier was committed to putting a down payment on a power corridor through Ontario so that we could sell power to Ontario, to that energy-hungry province, so they could close down their coal plants. Now, Mr. Speaker, the last time I looked at the map, Ontario was to the east of Manitoba. I want the Premier to explain: If the market is to the east, why is he running the power line to the west? Mr. Doer: Well, I'm surprised– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would point out to the members opposite that, yes, we do have agreements to sell power to Ontario that is east of us. We also have an agreement on the proposal for the UNESCO World Heritage site. We actually have an agreement with the Province of Ontario that actually is to the east of us. He's right, on the world UNESCO World Heritage site on the eastern border of Manitoba and on the western border of Ontario.

At the announcement I made, and I've made it over and over again on the issue of sales: We are negotiating for additional sales south of us, we're negotiating for additional sales–and the last one we negotiated–east of us, and we're negotiating for additional sales and an east-west grid that's already been agreed to by every western province. I note today, in a letter to the editor, the member opposite continues to put false information and misleading the public.

I want to table a memorandum from the Deputy Minister of Conservation pointing out that this agreement that he has been misleading Manitobans on does not create any veto for land use planning in Manitoba. Would he stop writing letters to the editor that are false? Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, if Manitobans want to know what's in the agre ement, they're certainly welcome to read

section 3.8 of the agreement that he signed on April the 3rd which very clearly requires a unanimous agreement for any regulation dealing with planning on the east side of Lake Winnipeg. He can direct his deputy ministers to write memos, and that's fine, Mr. Speaker, but the fact is that Manitobans can read the agreement for themselves. They can go to www.pcmanitoba.com. A copy of the agreement is posted on the Web and they can arrive at their own conclusions.

I think that, given the fact that the Premier doesn't seem to have a reason for running the power line to the west at the extra cost of half a billion dollars, the lack of reason would suggest that perhaps he can't get permission to run it down the east. And the reason perhaps he can't get permission is because somebody has a veto on the east side, and that's very clear from the agreement. Now, the Premier has abandoned the Great Whale excuse. He has abandoned the threat to future energy sales excuse, Mr. Sp eaker, by talking about the fact that he's got deals in the works.

He has ignored the fact that the leading constitutional expert in the province is saying that a UNESCO designation is consistent with a power line. In fact, just to correct some misinformation he put on the record, it was his government that put the proposal to UNESCO for an 8,500 square kilometre UNESCO park. That's on the Web site. They did it in 2003 when he was Premier, so he can go back and check and know that it was his government that shrank the forest back in 2003 and have failed to take any leadership role in determining whether both a power line and a UNESCO site might be compatible. Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the Premier then: If, given that he doesn't seem to have any reason for this irrational decision other than he's afraid of phantom protestors, why is he putting phantom protestors, protests which haven't yet materialized, in the way of the right decision for future generations of Manitobans? * (14:00)

1060 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 10, 2007 Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would– [interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. I just cautioned our visitors in the public gallery about participating. Also, there is to be no participation of any member in the debates and that also includes applauding. This is the second time that I've cautioned our guests in the gallery, so I would ask the co-operation of all guests. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are many factors that lead one to make a judgment about the best options going forward. One of the obvious factors is what is most doable in the long run.

We have been up front with the people of Manitoba. We– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Doer: The member opposite was up front with the people of Manitoba. He basically said he was going to build the east-side transmission line even though it was recommended to his predecessor, the former premier, who never went ahead with the east-side transmission line. After being recommended in 1990, dealing with reliability for Manitoba, the member opposite made that announcement. He made it in two places. He made it prior to the election; he made it during the election.

We clearly stated before the election campaign our preference to not build the line on the east side. We said the other options, not the Interlake option, by the way, which the member opposite uses falsely again in terms of his statements. Inaccurately, I mean. I know inaccurate is not a point for members opposite; it happens all the time. But we made our position very clear. All those issues were on the table. The member's judgment was before the people of Manitoba during the election campaign. His judgment on the east side was before the people of Manitoba.

His judgment on guaranteeing the return of the Jets was on the table. His judgment on building a marina in Point Douglas was on the table. Our judgment was on the table. The people of Manitoba judged on May 22, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen: The Premier believes that winning an election entitles him to do whatever he chooses after that election, regardle ss of the impact on future generations of Manitobans. I would suggest to the Premier that Manitobans, the many Manitobans I've been speaking to are tired of that kind of arrogance. They don't believe that they voted to leave their children a half-billion-dollar debt.

That was not explained to them in the course of the election campaign, Mr. Speaker. I think that the Premier should demonstrate just a little bit of humility when it comes to the mandate that he perceives himself to have. Now, I want to ask the Premier: Given that the reasons he's provided seem to revolve around fear of protests, and that was dealt with this morning in the Free Press: The Premier, it's not so much about what he wants to do, it's about what he wants to avoid, I think was the line in Dan Lett's column today in the Free Press.

What he wants to avoid are protests even though no such protests have materialized. So we've got the spectre of a phantom protest which has led the Premier to throw away half a billion dollars, cut more trees and contribute to air pollution in our province, Mr. Speaker. He likes to compare himself to other leaders. Duff Roblin, could you imagine that if he backed down in the face of what were actually real protests, not phantom protests, real protests against the floodway project; Mr.

Giuliani, who he has praised, who has stared down protesters; Arnold Schwartzenegger; Ed Schreyer and other leaders who have faced down actual, real-life protesters. Why is the Premier so timid and weak that he can't even stand up to phantom protesters, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, the timid and weak position is to do nothing. That's what the Conservatives did. The wimpy Conservatives cancelled Limestone. That's the wimpy Conservative Party. The wimpy Conservatives cancelled Conawapa. That's the do nothing party. That is the party that doesn't do anything for building Manitoba.

We were honest with the people of Manitoba, and in speaking with honesty, I'd like to ask the Leader of the Opposition, in light of the fact– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I need to be able to hear the questions and the answers. The honourable First Minister has the floor. Mr. Doer: Yes. Mr. Speaker, there have been newspaper articles back to 2005 indicating that one route may be more–it's a straighter line, and the other route is more expensive. There's been all kinds of

October 10, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1061 analysis on this. That's why we were up front in the election campaign. We weren't timid like Conservatives when they said they weren't going to sell the telephone system and then went and broke their word a week later. That's arrogance, Mr. Leader of the Opposition. That's the arrogance of the Conservative Party. We had the courage of our convictions. We put it out in front, out in the open, and I would suggest to the Leader of the Opposition he should correct the record.

If he's any kind of lawyer at all, he would know that the agreement that was signed with the WNO chiefs, which we had legal advice on prior to the signing of that, did not provide a veto and he should correct the record and do the right thing and have some integrity. Mr. Speaker: Order. I ask the co-operation of all members, when putting a question or answering a question, to put it through the Chair, please. Mr. McFadyen: If the signatories to the agreement don't have a veto, then why did the Premier cave? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, we said long before the agreement, we said in 2004 or 2005 that we would not build a transmission line down the east side of Lake Winnipeg. We were very honest with the people of Manitoba. And when the member opposite mentions Duff Roblin, he was criticized for not building a dam at Ste. Agathe for $12 million, but rather building a floodway that was called Duff's Ditch and ridiculed for $65 million, five times more. Mr. Brennan has already stated that the transmission line is required for extra sales and for additional reliability. The extra sales will pay, in Mr.

Brennan's opinion, for the additional costs. Mr. Speaker, I'd also point out that $300 million for an additional cost fo r albeit longer transmission line is half as much as the sales to Minnesota are per year. The member opposite could put words in about phantom protesters. We care about customers. If members opposite don't care about $600 million in sales per year, that's why they never sold a megawatt. We did sell power. We do have a good relationship with our customers. We are aware of what they feel. Members opposite haven't sold a megawatt.

That's why we're the builders, and that's why they are on that side of the House. Retired Teachers' Pensions Cost of Living Allowance Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, many retired teachers, their spouses and other supporters were outside braving the weather, and I can attest how cold it was, to rally for a fair co st-of-living adjustment. Manitoba teachers have since 1977 been paying into the Pension Adjustment Account over the course of their careers with the belief that when they retired they would r eceive a fair COLA. That point was made very clear again today.

I would like to ask this Minister of Education: When can retired teachers expect to receive the fair COLA which they deserve and which they have a right to? Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): And I see the more things change the more they stay the same. I might have a new critic, but he's wearing the same mask as my critic last year, masquerading as a teacher advocate, Mr. Speaker. It is our government that has increased the contribution rates by 1.1 percent for the first time in 25 years.

It is our government that started to fund on a go-forward basis the new entries into the teachers' pension fund. It is our government that has funded $1.5 billion of the unfunded pension liability, 75 percent of the unfunded pension liability, Mr. Speaker. It is our government that continues to work with teachers to find a solution for the sustainability of COLA. Members opposite, Halloween isn't for three weeks, but they keep masquerading. * (14:10) Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out to the minister that it's during the dark Doer government years that COLA was slashed.

The '90s were full COLA days. In fact, for the year 2007, retired teachers are receiving a COLA of 0.63 percent. This is only three-tenths of the CPI decrease. For nearly a decade this NDP government has sat by and allowed the purchasing power of teachers' pension dollars to become further and further eroded. I would like to ask the Minister of Education: When will this NDP government ensure that teachers' pensions are better protected against inflation?

1062 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 10, 2007 Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Speaker, I can assure the member opposite that it is this side of the House that will ensure that that will happen. During the election, the members opposite proposed a two-thirds COLA solution. They also proposed that this would cost $21.6 million, which, when we've done the math, is actually one-fifth of what it would take.

I might point out that that might be half the salary for a Winnipeg Jets team if they were to bring that back, but $21.6 million is what they committed to, and that would simply not deliver on two-thirds COLA as the members proposed during the election and as RTAM endorsed that proposal during the election. We are committed, and we continue to work with teachers to address this issue. We always have been open to teachers meeting. We have the Teachers' Pension Task Force meeting to address this issue, and we've got a teacher on the TRAF board as well. Mr. Schuler: Well, Mr.

Speaker, it seems to be that when teachers no longer pay dues, this government drops them like a hot potato, and retired teachers are concerned. They are frustrated, and they're going to continue to raise their voices on this issue until this NDP government takes meaningful steps to ensure that retired teachers receive a fair COLA on a long- term basis. Retired teachers have made meaningful contributions to the Pension Adjustment Account. Not only that, they have made countless contributions to our communities. They deserve to be treated with fairness and respect.

When will this NDP government finally acknowledge that retired teachers deserve to be treated fairly? Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Speaker, they do deserve that, and that is what we are doing. Once again, members pretend; they're the great pretending party as far as being teacher advocates are concerned. I have to applaud the retired teachers for their advocacy on this issue.

We had a lot of practice during the 1990s when they introduced legislation stripping teachers of their collective bargaining rights, when 242 teachers were given a pink slip because of their pathetic funding announcements, when many teachers took early retiremen t incentive plans in the best years of their pensionable service, which had an impact on the pension. They had eight actuarial warnings, eight warnings that what they were doing with the Pension Adjustment Account was no t sustainable. What did they do? Their action on pensions? They got rid of the actuary.

We're the government committed to working with teachers. We will fix this, Mr. Speaker. North End Housing Project Line of Credit Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Mr. Speaker, we have more questions than answers when it comes to the incompetence and the mismanagement of the government when it comes to managing the Housing portfolio. Continued chaos and continued scandal. Will the minister tell us today how much the taxpayer-guaranteed line of credit is with the North End Housing Project? Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): The challenges that arise from time to time with community affordable housing agencies are not challenges that we saw under the former government. Why, Mr. Speaker? Because they didn't do any affordable housing. They didn't know what that was. No, Mr. Speaker, this was a government that saw property values bottom out. Parts of the inner city were literally on fire, and they sat and did nothing. This government is partnering with community agencies.

We're supporting the agencies, and with $100 million, working with the federal and city governments, we have now renovated or constructed 5,000 affordable homes over the course of our mandate. We'll continue to partner. Operational Review Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Well, Mr. Speaker, that's about the most bizarre answer I've ever heard from a minister across the way. Mr. Speaker, these are really serious questions about serious issues that impact low-income Manitobans that need housing services from this province. Mr.

Speaker, I'm asking some very direct questions, and I would like some simple, direct answers from the minister. Will the minister table today the Ernst & Young Orenda operational review of the North End Housing Project that was completed in February of 2005? Will he table that today? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, the member raises the North End Housing Project. One of the pioneers of affordable housing, it's a

October 10, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1063 community-based organization that has constructed or renovated, I understand, 148 units in the North End. Mr. Speaker, it's intere sting, perhaps the member should have consulted with the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. McFadyen) when he was a senior adviser to the City of Winnipeg. I understand that the City of Winnipeg funded that operational review because they, too, saw the value of the North End Housing Project along with the federal government. I don't recall any information coming forward. She might want to put it on the record that the Leader of the Opposition gave advice or took

part in any way in shutting North End Housing down because it is a vital part of our Affordable Housing Initiative and the City, the Province, the federal government have been working to strengthen the North End Housing Project. It will continue to do so. Accountability Mrs. Bonnie Mitche lson (River East): Mr. Speaker, I don't know how the minister can stand up with any credibility and say that they're strengthening the North End Housing Project when in fact half of the board has resigned. They're in a dysfunctional mode right now. They can't meet their bills.

They're not providing the financial information that's been requested by this government, and he says they're supporting them . They've done that organization a disservice by letting them continue to run the way they have been running without putting the supports in place to build the organization up, not tear it down. Mr. Speaker, will the minister tell us today whether the North End Housing Project is accountable and has been accountable for the agreement they signed with them? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr.

Speaker, it's certainly an odd question coming from the member of this House, the actual one member who shut down the Agency Accountability Unit as a cost-cutting measure in 1995. Mr. Speaker, over the last several years, the Province, the City, federal government have been working to provide supports to make sure that the North End Housing Project can continue to provide affordable housing. The North End Housing Project with 148 units has been facing challenges because of its success in strengthening the North End of Winnipeg.

I don't know if the member opposite knows this, but housing values have increased, doubled in parts of the North End. Construction costs are on the rise. Winnipeg is in the middle of a housing boom. The member should read the papers today, Mr. Speaker, and North End Housing is part of that success. That has been also a challenge that we're working with them on. Mr. Speaker: Order. Health Care Specialist Wait Times Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, Manitobans are frustrated by the NDP government's total mismanagement of our health-care system. Mr. Justin Pollack of Neepawa needs orthopedic surgery.

In April he was referred to a specialist in Brandon. To see that specialist he's facing a wait time of more than 20 months, nearly two years. After that, who knows how long he'll have to wait for the actual surgery. Will the Minister of Health explain to Justin Pollack why she has failed to make sure that he can get access to health care when he needs it? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, as I spoke to the member during Estimates about specific case concerns, if he has a specific concern that he's not already made known to us, we certainly do invite him to let us know of a specific case as, of course, we have employed within the system at the Brandon Regional Health Authority and in the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority wait-time co-ordinators to assist us.

I can also tell the member, the member of the same party that was bragging about $800 million of irresponsible tax cuts during the election while we promised to build our health-care system and invest that money and we've been working since 1999, since 2003 we've brought our orthopedic wait times down by over 50 percent and we're not finished yet. * (14:20) Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, the minister's words are cold comfort to the many, many Manitobans who are suffering because of her total mismanagement of the health-care system. Mrs.

Elizabeth Goudie, also of Neepawa, is waiting until February 2009 for an appointment with a specialist. That's 21 months from the time she was referred, Mr. Speaker. No one should have to wait in

1064 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 10, 2007 pain that long. The NDP has had eight years to address the shortage of specialists. When will the minister stop looking backwards and start doing her job? Ms. Oswald: Members opposite, of course, are always cautioning against looking backwards because they don't want Manitobans to remember that it was the Conservative government that made the ill-headed decision to cut the spaces in our medical school because they thought that would be a good cost-saving measure. They also thought that it would be a good idea, Mr.

Speaker, as a cost-saving measure, to perhaps fire a thousand nurses and drive another 500 out of the system. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that, during the election campaign, we made clear that, despite the fact that we brought down our orthopedic wait times by 50 percent, despite the fact that we have brought our wait times for the life-saving services like cancer and cardiac to be the best in the country, despite that, we're committed to add a hundred more doctors to Manitoba. How many doctors did they promise, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Briese: Mr.

Speaker, how can the minister claim to be reducing wait times when my constituents are waiting almost two years just to see a specialist. Yet another constituent, Lynn Byram, is waiting until April 2009 for her appointment. Just like Mrs. Goudie, she is also waiting 21 months to see a specialist. My constituents want answers, Mr. Speaker. When will this minister admit that she has failed, and when will she take responsibility for the fact that Manitobans are waiting in pain? Ms.

Oswald: I say again to the member, if he has not already made known to our office the specifics of an individual case, we certainly do want him to do that. We want to work together. The wait times that the member is citing do not match the information that we have for wait times and efficiency with surgery, and we want to ensure that we investigate so we can assist those individuals. Again, Mr. Speaker, I want to say very clearly that it was our party during the campaign that committed to adding a hundred doctors to the system. It was our party during the campaign that committed to adding 700 nurses.

The members opposite made one trip out of Winnipeg. I think it might have been to Portage la Prairie to make a rural announcement on health care, disregarded rural Manitoba entirely after that. They can talk, but they don't act. Health Care Orthopedic Specialist Wait Times Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I, too, have heard concerns about very long waiting lists for some people for orthopedic procedures. The fact of the matter is this is not just about the number of physicians, it's about the organization and the co-ordination.

Clearly, th e minister should be looking at what's happening in Alberta where they've got a province-wide network, the Alberta Bone and Joint Health. Why is the minister not putting in place a co-ordinated, province-wid e system for orthopedics and bone and joint health like is present in Alberta? Hon.

Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): As the member opposite knows, as we've had correspondence on this issue and had conversations on this issue, certainly we do look at other jurisdictions for their ideas that can be working, but we also know that there are some significant limitations to the example that he cites. I believe that the member is also very well acquainted with our wait-times task force and the absolutely expert guidance of Dr. Luis Oppenheimer, and the work that Dr.

Oppenheimer has done, particularly with Concordia Hospital and the Centre of Excellence, in being able to work and change the culture of wait times and doctors, bring them to come together to centralize those lists, bring the lists down by over 50 percent. We want all doctors to get on board, and we know that Dr. Oppenheimer can help us do that. Mr. Speaker: Order. The time for Oral Questions has expired. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I ask for leave to ask the two supplementary questions I would normally have. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave to finish off his two supplementary questions? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. You know, the problem at the moment is one of real lack of co-ordination on a province-wide basis in bone and joint health. There may be some improvements in knee and hips, but when it comes to shoulders, wrists and all sorts of other things, there continue to be major problems.

October 10, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1065 I had an example of a health-care provider who had to make 27 phone calls for somebody who had an orthopedic emergency because it wasn't a co-ordinated system. When will the Minister of Health make sure that there is a co-ordinated network for bone and joint health care throughout Manitoba, just like there is in Alberta? Ms. Oswald: If the member opposite again has a specific situation he wants to share with us so that we can work together to improve the system, he knows that we're open to do that.

Again, I would say to him that the evidence is quite clear that the efforts of the wait-times task force and the efforts in particular of Dr. Luis Oppenheimer, who is getting national and international attention for his achievements with the doctors and health-care professionals in our province–the evidence is clear. Since 2005, the wait time for orthopedics has come down by 50 percent or over. We've seen diagnostic times come down substantially as well. We know that in 1998, the wait time, for example, Mr. Speaker, for an MRI was 28 weeks, and today for that same MRI, it's 6 to 8 weeks.

We've got more work to do, but we're working on it. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, it is ve ry clear that the minister is running a dysfunctional, poorly organized system. That's why you've got these incredible long wait times. That's why people have to make far too many calls to get some action. Let me give you one more example. Right now, from Thompson, for somebody who needs a fairly simple orthopedic procedure, they're now having to, on a routine basis, make four trips to Winnipeg instead of one. There's an example of poor organization.

When will the minister get her act in order and start having a provincial network for orthopedic care for bone and joint health in this province like there is in Alberta? Ms.

Oswald: Again, I'll repeat for the member if he wasn't listening earlier that, of course, the wait-times task force is working diligently not only with our professionals in the lifesaving areas like, for example, cardiac and cancer, where CIHI consistently ranks us with wait times that are No. 1 in the country, but we're also working diligently with the wait-times task force and with our surgeons to ensure that we can move closer, not only in diagnostics but the surgeries themselves by centralizing those wait lists. It's true, Mr.

Speaker, that there are some physicians that are reluctant to release their wait lists into a centralized list, but Dr. Oppenheimer and his crew are having incredible success in that. We're going to keep working on that, and one of the best ways we can do that is by increasing our complement of doctors and our complement of nurses, and that's what we committed to do. Mr. Speaker: As previously agreed, that's two supplementary questions put forward by the honourable Member for River Heights. Now we'll move on to Members' Statements. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Retired Teachers' Pensions Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr.

Speaker, once again today, retired teachers have been forced to rally their membership on the steps of the Legislature in an attempt to get justice, fairness and equity for their COLA. As part of a government, Mr. Speaker, in the 1990s, I was pleased to be able to extend full COLA to teachers during the 1990s, something that has completely vanished since this government has taken office. Mr. Speaker, the teachers were promised a fair and reasonable cost-of-liv ing adjustment to cope with increased costs of living. Instead, the value of their pensions today continues to deteriorate.

There must be a long-term solutio n and sustainable plan in place that is both fair for working and retired teachers. This government cannot ignore the problems forever. It will not simply go away. Retired teachers are asking the government to ensure long-term funding for their Pension Adjustment Account to secure a fair and sustainable COLA. This government's mismanagement of this situation has reached a critical point. Mr. Speaker, today on the steps of the Legislature, it was also evident that the Manitoba Teachers' Society has abandoned these retired teachers as well.

The Retired Teachers' Association of Manitoba has been asking for a say in the management of the Teachers' Retirement Allowance Fund and they deserve it.

1066 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 10, 2007 Mr. Speaker, a retired teacher should have a guaranteed appointment to the board. This can be secured as the NDP government support the Member for Springfield's (Mr. Schuler) forthcoming bill. The NDP government has continually ignored or dismissed the many valid concerns of retired teachers regarding the COLA. This cannot and should not continue, Mr. Speaker. Retired teachers deserve better. They have given to this province. They have given to our society, and this government owes them the COLA that they have worked so hard for. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. * (14:30) St. Barnabas Anglican Church Centennial Mr. Doug Marti ndale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House that this year marks the centennial of the St. Barnabas Anglican Church. This church is found on the corner of McPhillips Street and Magnus Avenue and has been an invaluable pillar of the North End for generations. Over its 100 years, the church has occupied three different buildings, but the willingness of its membership to reach out and become involved in the community has never changed.

As an example, its Girl Guides troop, the first in Winnipeg, recently celebrated its 90th annive rsary. In addition, the St. Barnabas Church has run one of the biggest food banks in the North End for Winnipeg Harvest for the past 20 years. The membership of the church also has an inspiring history of reaching out to newcomers to the country. They recently welcomed a refugee from Sudan and helped him furnish his home and get established in the city. He now sings in the St. Barnabas choir every Sunday. In addition, three years ago, the church sponsored a family of 13 Liberian refugees and brought them to Canada.

Once more, the church membership banded together to get them a home, furniture, food and clothing. The altruistic character of the St. Barnabas congregation shines through, even in celebrating its centennial. They have marked this special year with a baby food drive for Winnipeg Harvest and a bursary for a local high school graduate. They also plan on reaching out to their parish partner in Uganda to possibly help furnish it with new windows. A banquet celebrating the centennial of St. Barnabas will be held on October 13.

The following day's liturgy will be attended by the Bishop of the Diocese of Rupertsland in commemoration of this auspicious occasion. Mr. Speaker, after 100 years, the membership of St. Barnabas continues to tirelessly serve its community. Its membership is relatively small, but its heart and dedication are boundless. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 26th Annual Aggie Bed Push Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, approximately 40 students from the University of Manitoba continued a long-standing tradition of putting their time and efforts towards a worthy charitable cause.

During the weekend of September 29 to October 1, 2007, the Faculty of Agriculture and Food Science students completed the 26th Annual Aggie Bed Push from Brandon to Winnipeg to raise money for KidSport. Starting Saturday morning in Brandon, and accompanied by a motor home and other support vehicles, the students rode on and pushed a souped-up bed as they travelled to MacGregor in one day. After an evening of rest, they continued their journey to Headingley on Sunday, before completing the trip Monday morning to the Fort Garry Campus.

With each bed pushed, a different charity is the focu s of the students' efforts. Previous charities benefiting from the cause include Ronald McDonald House, CancerCare Manitoba, Children's Hospital Foundation of Manitoba, the Manitoba Farm and Rural Stress Line. This year the studen ts are aiming to raise $3,000 for KidSport. Administered by Manitoba Sport, KidSport is a national charity that aims to assist less fortunate children to participate in sport.

As their motto goes, they are trying to create an accessible environment "so all kids can play." Sport and physical acti vity are increasingly important for raising children who are physically, psychologically and socially healthy. Unfortunately, there continue to be barriers, such as the rising costs of registration fees and the price of sports equipment that limit the chances for families to place their children in organized sport.

This noble charity can provide assistance to pay registration costs and a new and used recycling equipment program that ensures children have the sports gear they need to fully participate in the activity. Mr. Speaker, I was fortun ate to catch up to the Aggies on the final leg of their journey and, as a former Aggie, I was happy to provide a donation to this very worthwhile cause. I extend my congratulations to all the University of Manitoba

October 10, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1067 Aggies who spent their weekend participating in the 26th Annual Bed Push. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Meghan Montgomery Ms. Marilyn Brick (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, I rise before the House today to recognize the achievements of a young athlete in my constituency. Meghan Montgomery is a member of the National Adaptive Rowing Team. She began her rowing career on the Red River a mere seven years ago and immediately fell in love with the sport.

By 2001, one year after she started rowi ng, she had already gained a spot on Manitoba's provincial team, winning medals in that year's Canada Summer Games and in the Canada Cup in 2003, both in the women's eight event. This success, noteworthy and of itself, is all the more so when one realizes that Meghan was born with an underdeveloped right hand which does not allow her to grip the oar with her right hand alone. While this disadvantage might have stopped other less determined athletes, Meghan adapted her rowing style to fit her capacities, sweep rowing rather than sculling.

She joined the National Adaptive Rowing Team in 2005 and added yet another medal to her collection at the world championship in England in 2006. For the future, Meghan has her sights set on Beijing where adaptive rowing is set to make its Paralympic debut as part of the 2008 Paralympic Games. After the games, Meghan will be considering an invitation to train with the national women's team, a move which could, as she says, make her the first Paralympic athlete to cross the boundary into able-bodied competition. Mr.

Speaker, Meghan's achievements speak to the incredible strength and drive of Manitoba amateur athletes generally but also to the determination of our Paralympics specifically. On behalf of all members of this House, I congratulate Meghan on her past accomplishments and wish her all the best in training for the Beijing Games next summer. Mr. Speaker, as someone who has a rower in her family, I want to really congratulate Meghan for all her hard work. Thank you. Orthopedic Specialist Wait Times Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, the NDP government has fallen sadly short when it comes to bone and joint health. It is ludicrous when it takes 20 months or more to see an orthopedic specialist in Manitoba. The Minister of Health makes a laughing stock of herself when in Question Period today she tried to defend the indefensible. As we Liberals have recommended in our report on the regional health authority system in Manitoba, we need to have a province-wide network for bone and joint health in our province similar to Alberta Bone and Joint Health in Alberta. Indeed, I talked recently with Dr.

Henry Friesen, the former head of the Medical Research Council, and a renowned and knowledgeable Manitoban. He indicated he had recently had discussions with an individual involved with Alberta Bone and Joint Health, and he was persuaded that Manitoba badly needs to organize bone and joint health in our province in a similar fashion to what's happened in Alberta.

Only in this way can we overcome the various fiefdoms which exist today in bone and joint health in Manitoba and create an effective well co-ordinated, truly province-wide network to ensure that Manitobans get the bone and joint health care that they need and that we have prevention, research, education integrated well with the care that is delivered. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Would you please call Supply? Mr. Speaker: The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply.

Madam Deputy Speaker and the Chairs, please proceed to the respective rooms that you'll be chairing. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES AND HOUSING * (15:00) Madam Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Family Services and Housing. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement?

1068 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 10, 2007 Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): I'm pleased, Madam Chair, to be here for the '07-08 expenditure Estimates. Recently, our government outlined its funding commitments for this fiscal year, of course, in the provincial budget. In this budget, what we called the Building Budget, members will see our commitment and progress in fighting poverty and in building healthier, safer and stronger communities. The budget this year provides over $1.1 billion for the Department of Family Services and Housing.

That's an overall increase of $88.8 million, or 8.6 percent over the '06-07 Adjusted Vote. There are a number of key areas of investment for the department, including more funding for affordable housing and additional support for low-income families and for persons with disabilities. In recognition of our province's future labour needs, we need to step-up our efforts to improve incomes and employment opportunities for Manitobans, especially groups who have been underrepresented in the work force. Budget 2007 introduces Rewarding Work.

It's a four-year strategy for modernizing our income assistance programs to provide better supports for working families and to break down barriers for inco me assistance recipients seeking employment. Year one involves a 10-po int plan that includes the establishment of a new $11-million Manitoba child benefit which will enable parents to keep benefits for their children when leaving income assistance. Monthly payments will begin in January '08 and will benefit up to 33,000 children in low-income working families when fully implemented.

Work incentives for people receiving income assistance will be enhanced and will complement the federal government's newly announced Working Income Tax Benefit program. Rewarding Work will also provide improved employment and educational assessments, the opportunity to take longer skills training and academic programs and employment supports, such as a work clothing and transportation allowance.

For persons with disabilities on income assistance, initiatives include mental health supports, enhanced vocational rehab services, an annual $300 increase per person in the income assistance for persons with a disability benefit and the doubling of the allowable exempted cash assets. In subsequent years we will see further enhancements such as drug, optical and dental coverage for low-inco me workers, better opportunities for persons with disabilities and more training assistance.

The budget builds on our strong commitment to early learning and child care and, despite the significant loss of federal funding, we have continued to stabilize and strengthen our child-care system. Nearly 26 million has been allocated for our early learning and child-care system for '07-08. Over 14 million has been provided to ensure that all initiatives launched with federal dollars under the cancelled agreement with Ottawa will continue. This includes funding for spaces and operations begun since 2005 as well as funding for training initiatives and supports to recruit and retain early childhood educators.

At a cost of 2.9 million, we are improving subsidy levels so more low- and middle-income families can qualify and reducing child-care fees by decreasing the 2.40 per day unsubsidized fee to $2.00 per child for subsidized families. That's $104 per year, per child. We have included additional funding for 500 more child-care spaces, bringing the total number of funded spaces to 23,600. Additional funding has been provided to continue with the construction, renovation and revitalization of child-care centres in Manitoba with an additional 2.8 million for the capital fund.

Approximately 2.9 million will support a 2 percent funding increase to further raise wages for early childhood edu cators, effective April 1, 2007. Funding to support wages has increased by 11 percent since 2005. Now, since 1999, child-care funding has more than doubled and we have allotted funding for 7,160 more child-care spaces province-wide. We have fulfilled our commitments in Manitoba's five-year plan for child care and will soon be launching a new multiyear plan for early learning and child care.

We have also increased resources in our Child and Family Services system, allocating an additional 49.1 million in '07-08. This represents a 25 percent increase over the '06-07 Adjusted Vote. This includes more funding for salaries and a 2 percent increase in funding for community programs and

October 10, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1069 supports earlier commitments outlined in our Changes for Children initiative. We've also increased support for the Family Violence Prevention Program by more than $375,000. Manitoba's program, I understand, is one of the most comprehensive in the country and supports 34 community organizations across the province. Services for persons wi th disabilities remains a major focus. In '07-08 we've allocated an additional 17.8 million for the Supported Living Program.

That provides a 2 percent increase in the per diem rates for agencies and includes funds to transition 20 residents of the Manitoba Developmental Centre into the community. As well, the department will be proceeding with the fourth phase of what's called the Staffing Stabilization Initiative to continue to address the issues of recruitment and retention of staff in this area. It's worth noting that since 1999 the budget for Supported Living has increased 111.6 million or 184.2 percent. With an average annual increase of 13.5 percent, it's one of the largest rates of growth for any government program.

We have also provided additional funding to support more children with disabilities, including additional funds for respite training and a 2 percent increase to fund external agencies. The department's strong focus on improving circumstances for low-income citizens has included aggressive action in the area of affordable housing. In '07-08 we will build on our efforts to improve the supply of affordable housing in Manitoba. Recently, we announced more than 188 million, including 61.5 million in federal contributions to a new multi-year housing strategy.

This new fund will enable community driven construction or renovation of affordable homes for lower-income Manitobans, while other investments will enhance public housing, homeless shelters and basic home repair. * (15:10) The first pillar is called HOMEworks! and will commence this year and provide 104.5 million over three years for affordable housing. Priority will be given to inner-city revitalization, with a focus on refugees and immigrants, seniors, urban Aboriginals, northern Manitobans and homelessness.

In '07-08, approximately 25 million will be allocated to these important areas under the HOMEWorks! pillar. Under the Affordable Housing Initiative, we have allocated over 6.1 million for affordable and northern remote housing initiatives in '07-08. We've entered into an agreement extending federal-provincial renovation and repair programs to '09, under which 2 million has been allocated in this year for renovation and repair programs. The department is committed to improving the quality of life for Manitobans through furthering the social, economic and labour market inclusion of all citizens.

We strive to ensure that diversity is respected, that people feel accepted and valued and live with dignity and security. We work with the communities, support Manitoba children, families and individuals to achieve their fullest potential. Madam Chair, we will continue through our mission to enhance our services, recognizing the very significant increases in funding this year. I look forward to the discussion here in Estimates. Madam Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic have any opening comments? Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): I thank the minister for his opening statement and wish him well in his new responsibilities. I have the Housing side, and I think we, as an opposition party, recognize and realize the onerous task of managing both the Family Services issues and the Housing issues. I can speak from experience when I say that just being the Minister of Family Services for several years, I found that it was a full-time job plus.

It was very busy, lots of issues affecting a lot of vulnerable people, and to add Housing issues on top of Family Services issues, I know must be a very onerous undertaking for any minister. So I know that this minister by himself certainly hasn't created the chaos in the Housing side of the department. I think he inherited a lot of the issues that he is having to deal with today. So I know that it won't be an easy task. I will have lots of very specific questions that I'll want to ask on the Housing portfolio. I'm not going to say too much more in my opening statement.

I know it's going to be a little confusing, hopping back and forth. Maybe we'll get into the process and we'll try to keep maybe some of the overall organizational questions. Basically, it would probably be the minister and deputy that could

1070 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 10, 2007 answer the organizational questions for the whole department, and then we'll try to ensure, for staff's sake, that we keep our questions a little focussed so that we're not hopping back and forth. I would just like to ask the minister if he might respond, after my colleague has a chance to make a bit of an opening statement, on whether or not he had a chance to look at the letter that I sent him in preparation for the Estimates process to see whether that information might be available as we start Estimates that are specifically on the Housing side.

So I'll leave it at that and let my colleague say a few words, and then maybe the minister might respond to that. Madam Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks. Does the official opposition critic for Family Services and Persons with Disabilities have any opening comments? Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Madam Chair, I do concur with what my colleague has said about wishing you well in this portfolio.

I know you have not been in it for that long, but you certainly have a little more experience than I have as a very newly elected member and just appointed as critic for this department. Staff did present me with just a huge amount of stuff that I've been trying to work my way through and make some head nor tail of it and trying to get my head around it. I would ask that you bear with me a little bit on some of my questions because some of it is from lack of familiarity, but I hope I'm not double-tracking in some of this.

Being from a very rural constituency, I take maybe a little different bent on some of the issues in the department because of the spaces and the areas that are out there. We do have housing issues in my constituency, and we do have child and family services and all the other issues out there. It's a learning experience for me right at the moment, but my bottom line is probably the same as your bottom line. I want the best for the people in my constituency and in this province, and I will be trying to ask questions that will give us directions to proceed from here.

Once again, I concur with what my colleague said here. What we'll probably do first is some of the standard Estimates questions, and then I think our plan here is to do some Housing issues first and then go to some of the Family Services issues. Thank you. Madam Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the Minister's Salary is the last item considered for a department in the Committee of Supply. Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 9.1.(

a) and proceed with consideration of the remaining items referenced in resolution 9.1. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Mr. Mackintosh: Here at the table is Martin Billinkoff, the deputy minister, along with Sheila Lebredt, who is the acting ADM for Administration and Finance, as well as Joy Cramer, the assistant deputy minister for Housing. Madam Chairperson: Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of this department chronologically or have a global discussion? Mrs.

Mitchelson: If we could go global, recognizing that there are two critic s and there are two very distinct pieces of the department, and we will try to keep our questions pertinent to the area where staff is available. Although on the organizational structure, as I indicated earlier, I think there might be the ability for us to have general discussion on all of the staffing issues, if that works for the minister. Mr. Mackintosh: That's fine. Madam Chairperson: It is agreed that questioning for this department will follow in a global manner with all resolutions to be passed once the questioning has completed.

Agreed? [Agreed] The floor is now open for questions. Mrs. Mitchelson: I had just in my opening comments asked whether the minister had an opportunity to look at my letter that I sent on September 25, and whether the information that I had asked for is available now, and whether that might be able to be tabled? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, I've been advised that that information, I understand is–the compilation of that is near completion. So, we'll make best efforts if it's not available today, that we will make it available for the next sitting of the Estimates. * (15:20)

October 10, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1071 Mrs. Mitchelson: Okay. I thank the minister for that. I'm just going to ask one question on the Estimates book. I have to admit that I haven't gone back in previous Estimates and looked at this issue, but I see that there's no staffing for MHRC or Housing in the Estimates book, unless I'm missing it or I haven't read it as thoroughly as I should have.

So maybe the minister could just indicate to me–and I know it is a corporation, MHRC is a corporation and that might be the reason–but if it's not in the book anywhere, can I ask him to provide me with the information on staffing and organizational structure in Housing under MHRC. Mr. Mackintosh: I believe there'll be recognition of the ADM's position. There may be some support around that in the Estimates, but the Housing and Renewal Corporation is a Crown corporation and won't be represented in the Estimates in the way that the line departmental divisions are. Mrs.

Mitchelson: So, could the minister then provide for me the number of staff in the MHRC and the Housing Authority and the organizational charts for those with staff members? Maybe that's part of the information that's being compiled and will be available tomorrow morning. Maybe the minister could just confirm that. Mr. Mackintosh: It's my understanding that the charts and staffing complements were included in the list of questions and that'll be provided as soon as we can conclude that compilation. Mr.

Briese: I don't know whether it was included in that letter, but I'm curious to know how many staff openings there are in your department at the present time. Mr. Mackintosh: The department advises that the vacancy rate is usually in the range of 5 percent, which of course is, we're talking hundreds here, but it's my understanding that we could reduce that number. I don't know how quickly we can do that, but human resources personnel can attend to that and provide an answer to the member. Mr. Briese: Have there been any positions that have been reclassified in your department in the last year? Mr.

Mackintosh: The positions are reclassified on an ongoing basis. I anticipate that we could reduce the number of reclassified positions at a certain point in time and provide that to the member. Mr. Briese: Thank you, Madam Chair, I'll get going here yet. Are there contracts awarded out of your department for various services? Mr. Mackintosh: I guess the question is best answered by defining wh at the member wants to include in the term "contract." The department has arrangements, whether by service purchase agreements, by contracts, by other forms of contract, if you will, or agreement.

Arrangements concluded, for example, in the Family Violence Prevention program, supported living, ch ildren's services, there are almost 200 agencies there that help to provide services for vulnerable Manitobans. In the area of Housing, I'm advised that there are about 444 agencies or community organizations that we have working arrangements with. In Child Care there's 583, I understand, that would be child-care centres for the most part. Under Child and Family Services there are agencies there. There are over 20 of them.

When you look as well at the licensed foster facilities, there are 2,736 licensed facilities. As well, in terms of the narrow definition of contracts for services, I understand that there could be as many as in the range of 200 there. If the member would like a specific number of contracts for, like, the provision of–well, I guess he has to define what services because services is what we do. Family Services, right? If he's meaning the more traditional notion of contracts with, say, construction companies and that, then perhaps he can give us some advice as to what he would like further.

But I think that the point I'm making here is that the department has arrangements with thousands of agencies and individuals across Manitoba for the provision of services and goods. Mr. Briese: I'm thinking more in terms of services that you might actually develop a contract with, some specific outside agency where it might be awarded directly or it might be tendered, that type of contract where you might be setting up a specific case. Mr. Mackintosh: Is the member after consulting contracts or is it contracts for, say, plumbing and heating and those kinds of things or both? Mr.

Briese: I'd be most interested in consulting-type contracts. * (15:30) Mr. Mackintosh: We can arrange for that number to be provided. I believe that the department can get that number relatively quickly.

1072 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 10, 2007 Mr. Briese: Can that be provided with details like as to who got the contracts, how they were awarded, were they a tender system, and what specifically they were for? Mr. Mackintosh: I am advised that that is information that can be made public. Mr. Briese: Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll shift back a little bit here. I would like to know how many, a list of the political staff that is in the minister's office and what are part time and what are full time. Mr. Mackintosh: They're all overtime. Did the member ask for the names or just the number and description?

Mr. Briese: I would like name, position and whether they are full time. Mr. Mackintosh: My special assistant, Karen Lawlor, full time, at least; executive assistant is Jessica Irvine. That's for the constituency relations side of it and that's full time. Felix Meza is a policy adviser. He's part of the policy group. Jenny Opazo is the intake case co-ordinator. That's full time. Maeghan Dewar is project co-ordinator and she is full time as well. There's clerical staff, but I think you were asking for the political positions and that would comprise the list. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Are those positions all in the minister's office, or I think you indicated one was in the policy area, so would that be working out of the minister's office or out of the policy branch? Mr. Mackintosh: Felix is in the policy group, but it's fair to say he has a dual reporting to both the minister and to the head of policy who would be Rory Henry. So there's a link there with the policy group. Mrs. Mitchelson: The intake case co-ordinator, what is her role? Mr.

Mackintosh: Jenny and Karen split responsibilities for case intake, but Jenny takes most of them because Karen has other responsibilities in terms of liaison with the department and external communications. So Jenny's full-time job is dealing with concerns that are brought to the attention of the government that fall within the ambit of the department, so she would review intakes in whatever form.

If they are requiring ongoing review or monitoring usually, because the role of everyone in the office who has a telephone near them is to deal with intake and make appropriate referrals, but Jenny would deal with those that usually require more ongoing interventions and referrals. So those kinds of decisions are made on a case-by-case basis in terms of whether they go to Jenny or not or whether they go to Karen. I think that fairly describes what her role is. I think Jenny has direct relations with contacts in the department, then, to get timely answers to questions.

But I do know that she often meets with individuals and when people come in, it's usually Jenny that will deal with people who come to this building and have concerns or issues, questions about Family Services and Housing programs. Mrs. Mitchelson: Just if you could clarify for me, Maeghan Dewar was project–I can't remember, I didn't write it down–did you say project co-ordinator? What does that entail? Mr. Mackintosh: Maeghan Dewar was assigned responsibility to deal with longer term projects.

One example has been the Changes for Children initiative in child welfare and just to provide a liaison with the different offices that are involved in that initiative and other–like, for example, the Grand Relations initiative; she was helping there; other issues as they arise from time to time that are longer term projects, doing follow-up. I think that's a fair description of what she's been doing. She's been there for about a year, I think. Mrs. Mitchelson: Has there been an increase in political staff positions in the department in the last– or over the years, I guess? Mr.

Mackintosh: I just rely on the deputy for historical analysis but it's my understanding that Maeghan Dewar, the policy co-ordinator position, is relatively new. It was initially brought on because of the unique challenges and the need for co-ordinated action with the Child and Family Service reviews, but since then she's also been involved in other projects. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Are there any other positions in any other areas of the department that are exempt from the civil service because they would have been direct hire and they would have been contracts through the, you know, the Orders-in-Council that exempt them and they develop a contract with the Clerk, I guess, of the Executive Council? Are there any other positions?

October 10, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1073 Mr. Mackintosh: I think the member is asking are there other sort of political appointments, if you will, political attachés, in other areas of the department, and it's my understanding that there are none. It's my knowledge that there are none. * (15:40) Mr. Briese: Still dealing with staff, how many positions have been relocated in 2007-08, like relocated from rural and northern Manitoba into Winnipeg or relocated around the province and why? Mr.

Mackintosh: I think the best way to answer is to first of all say that there has been no directed effort to relocate staff either to ru ral or northern Manitoba or to Winnipeg, vice versa. There have been increases to staff across the province, and there may be consolidation of offices in certain regions and so on, but there hasn't been any identified pattern, I'm advised, of relocations, if that is where the member's going. I know he's keen on Neepawa, the beautiful Neepawa area. If he has any advice, we'll certainly entertain that. Mr. Briese: It's not only Neepawa.

We do have a fear that there are being a lot of relocations that are kind of a recentralization in some of the departments. That's always a concern for all of us in rural Manitoba. I'll move on to travel. How many out-of-the-province trips has the minister taken in the past year? I'd like some pertinent details. I don't expect you'd probably have them right at your fingertips, but I'd like to know location, purpose, dates, costs, and who all went. You may have them at your fingertips. Mr. Mackintosh: Did you say out of province?

There are three out-of-province travels for myself, not for my predecessor, that I could share at this point. As I recall, I was appointed in late September of '06. It was a sunny day. In January, there was the conference on child maltreatment at San Diego involving the Chadwick Centre, well, actually, it's a renowned international conference on child maltreatment. It was my introduction to the world best practices. That was followed in February with travel to Ottawa.

There were meetings with the federal minister and the Caledon Institute, at that time dealing with welfare reform, low-income supports, and with the federal minister on a number of topics, but I can say publicly, I think this is fair to both he and I, that child care was emphasized and the need for enhanced federal funding for child care. That was followed by, in March, Huntsville, Alabama, which is the National Children's Advocacy Center and the 23rd National Symposium on Child Abuse. That's all we have. If the member thinks I should travel more, I'm not certain I can find the time.

By the way, in the area of Justice, and hopefully, in this area, I have found those travels to be tremendous investments, and I've encouraged staff to focus on those conferences where we can learn more about best practices. I focussed more on child abuse in my first year in terms of my ability to gather best practices and get to know the players out there, understand the language and programming that's working in other places.

It's extraordinary, actua lly, to see in the area of child abuse how widespread the challenges are and how similar Manitoba's experience is reflected in other jurisdictions, which I find concerning. But I also recognize that we can learn some lessons from other jurisdictions that have made valiant efforts to strengthen child and family services, child protection systems. There's a conference coming up that I'm unfortunately not able to go to on affordable housing in Canada. So, actually, I asked one of the staff today to please come back and tell me everything because I did look forward to that.

But with the session on and other demands here, I have to forgo that in the coming week. That's unfortunate, but I hope I'll have other opportunities to learn more from those experiences in areas in addition to child and family services. I have a lot more to learn there. From worldwide experiences, certainly the Internet has helped, I think, to know what has been developing, but the areas of child care and disabilities are also areas that I hope to be able to learn from others abroad on , but we'll see how time permits. Mr.

Briese: There was one other part to the question, Madam Chairperson, and that was who accompanied you on those three trips you just talked about. Mr. Mackintosh: The international conference on child maltreatment, for that conference there was a representative of Child Find Manitoba there in addition to myself. There may have been other

1074 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 10, 2007 Manitobans there; this was a very large conference, but Child Find funded their own travel. In Ottawa, I went on my own to see the federal minister in Caledon. I also visited with the NDP caucus on child care at the time. I remember they had a bill that was before the House, and I was providing them some information on Manitoba's child-care system. So I had a lunch there with Judy and some other representatives. I knew there was something else. In Huntsville, there was a representation from the Child Protection branch.

There were two from the Child Protection branch, including the director of child welfare, the CEO of the Southern Authority, a representative of children's mental health services, MATC. That's the best my memory serves me. Mr. Briese: On the Huntsville one that you're referring to, I would ask, Madam Chairperson, if the expenses on all those ones were paid for by the department. Mr. Mackintosh: Well, all of the travel would have been funded through the Province, but in terms of the department, I'm certain that we paid for three people.

But I'll have to ask the department whether we covered the cost of the representative of the Authority and the MATC. * (15:50) Mr. Briese: Was there any time in the past year where any travel by the Premier (Mr. Doer) was paid for by your department, and, if so, what are the pertinent details? Mr. Mackintosh: My understanding is that we're not aware of any such expenses from Family Services and Housing, but we can let the member know if other information comes to light. Mrs. Mitchelson: If we could just move on to a few housing issues, then.

Which of the political staff in the minister's office would deal mostly with housing issues? Is it a combination of both the intake worker and the special assistant, or is there someone specifically that deals with housing issues? Mr. Mackintosh: Jenny would deal with most of the tenant issues, tenants' questions and concerns, but Karen may deal with them from time to time. So there is a sharing. Mrs. Mitchelson: I'd just like to get into then a few more detailed questions around some of the activity in Housing.

Specifically, I know there was a briefing note with certainly some allegations around the North End Housing Project and the way the department has handled that issue. I asked the minister some pretty direct questions in the House today, and I don't think I got answers from him on them. One of them was over and above the publicly announced funding for the North End Housing Project. There is some other funding that has been approved and forwarded to North End Housing.

One of the areas that wouldn't have been publicly announced but would have been provided to North End Housing was the line of credit that was negotiated and guaranteed by the Province, and I'm wondering if the minister could indicate to me how much that line of credit was for. Mr.

Mackintosh: As a result of a cash crunch that North End Housing was experiencing in the years '03-04, in that range, there were some concerns from the City–well, the funding partners in government, the City, Province and federal government in terms of the ability of North End Housing to respond to rapidly increasing market prices for older homes and the rapidly increasing construction costs. Of course, we've continued to see that change in the market over the last nu mber of years with a very hot housing market and an increasing demand for homes in older neighbourhoods.

Indeed, in the North End where I live, it's my understanding that there are neighbourhoods where property values have doubled over the last number of years, which represents an increase greater than the increase in average housing prices across Winnipeg as a whole. So it was following those concerns and the higher project capital costs that there was additional provincial funding provided.

Again, that was to focus on covering higher project capital costs and supporting some of the corresponding administration expenses that was provided through Urban Development Initiative and as well through the Affordable Housing Initiative. It was conditional, on an operational review that the City was prepared to fund, and the focus that was sought was a revised business plan.

I think the best way to describe what occurred was there was a vision concluded by the board of North End Housing by 2000 on what role it could have in providing affordable housing in the North End, and that included infill housing and, you know, rent-to-own options by way of purchasing relatively

October 10, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1075 low-cost houses in the North End, renovating them, and then making them available for low-income families. What happened over the coming years then was a remarkable change in market conditions, and I think that observers would conclude in hindsight, in particular, that the business plan did not change as quickly as could have better accommodated then the changing market conditions. The line of credit, then, of course, depends on approved projects. My understanding is though a lot of credit now is at about $300,000 as there are still three ongoing projects.

The other projects, from my understanding, is that they have been concluded. More recently then there wa s recognition of the need to provide up to $98,000 in addition, which leads us to the $300,000 line of credit in order to cover additional project management and administration fees for the completion of current projects. That was again to reflect the changing market and the increased costs of project capital costs.

My understanding is that all that has not been used, that there has been a draw on some of that, $65,000, and my understanding is that that is secured against properties that North End Housing has in its portfolio. Mrs. Mitchelson: So the minister is saying then that everything that's outstanding on the line of credit, the only amount outstanding is the $65,000 which they've drawn down in the line of credit, and the line of credit was never more than $300,000? Mr. Mackintosh: No.

I'm told that the line of credit has been higher in the past, but the number we gave is what the current amount is that could be available based on the number of projects that are outstanding. * (16:00) Mrs. Mitchelson: I may come back to some more questions around that once I get a chance to look at those answers in writing. Can the minister indicate whether there are lines of credit that have been negotiated and guaranteed by government for any other housing projects? Madam Chairperson: Honourable Minister of Family Services and Housing, and also to introduce the staff person who has joined us at the table. Mr.

Mackintosh: Terry Wotton is the acting executive director of Housing Programs for MHA, and he joins us at the table. I'm advised that Lazarus Housing also had a line of credit. Lazarus Housing has wound down now. Again, changing market conditions I understand are at play there and I think, not unlike North End Housing, these organizations have been impacted and their niche has been impacted by the rapidly changing market conditions in Winnipeg, in the North End in particular, and for Lazarus it's in the West End. The other one, Spence Neighbourhood Association, has a line of credit and that is still active. Mrs.

Mitchelson: I wonder if the–so, obviously, there is no line of credit with Lazarus Housing right now, because they're wound down in their operations. And Spence Neighbourhood, did the minister indicate what that end–has that been guaranteed by the Province? Is that one that the Province is negotiating and guaranteed for Spence Neighbourhood and where it's at right now? Mr. Mackintosh: We don't have the numbers with us right now at the table, but I am advised, though, that that line of credit is guaranteed against properties as well. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thanks, and none out in rural and northern Manitoba? Mr.

Mackintosh: I'm advised there are none. Mrs. Mitchelson: I did also ask the minister today in the House whether he would be prepared to table the operational review that was done by Ernst & Young, Ernst & Young Orenda, I think it was, back in 2005. That was completed in 2005. Would he be prepared to table that today? Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised that that report is actually owned by–it's the City of Winnipeg's report.

We could undertake to ask the City if we could make that available and I don't kn ow what to expect there, but they have proprietary rights and there may be a contractual piece to that, but that's the best advice I have. Mrs. Mitchelson: Is the minister indicating then that the City of Winnipeg paid for the operational review? Mr. Mackintosh: That's my information. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thanks for that. Was the Department of Housing the one, or the lead on, implementing and working with North End Housing Project to implement the recommendations of that review and is there any monitoring requirement by the department?

1076 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 10, 2007 Mr. Mackintosh: The information I have is that it was a joint initiative with the City of Winnipeg and, as well, not just Manitoba Housing, but Intergovernmental Affairs through the UDI program. But the City was a partner with the Province on meeting with the group and developing an action plan, but the operational review, I understand, was an investment by the City of Winnipeg. Mrs.

Mitchelson: So, then, I guess the minister can't answer for the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs, but there was no cost sharing of that operational review then, maybe by the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs rather than by Housing. Mr. Mackintosh: No. I'm advised that the City was the sole funder of their operational review. Mr. Daryl Reid, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mrs. Mitchelson: So, then, Intergovernmental Affairs and Housing would have both been sort of a part of the process, although it wasn't paid for by the Government of Manitoba.

They would've been a part of the process of helping to develop the terms of reference in working with the City of Winnipeg and the North End Housing Project to try to come to an understanding of what might need to be done, and then making recommendations on implementation? Mr.

Mackintosh: There was a recognition of the need by City and Intergovernmental, as well as Manitoba Housing and, I understand, the federal government as well–though they weren't as active on this operational review–of the need to work with North End Housing to enhance its business plan, to adjust it considering the market changes and, as well, the need to work toward sustainability. I'm advised that the City invited Manitoba Housing, for one, and Intergovernmental for input into the terms of reference and then follow-up work. Mrs.

Mitchelson: So, then, is the minister indicating that the City of Winnipeg is the lead in working with North End Housing Project or is the Province the lead on working with them to try to resolve the business plan and the outstanding issues? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, the department's taken on the lead in terms of working with them on the longer term. Mrs. Mitchelson: Is there any City of Winnipeg money presently in the North End Housing Project projects? Mr.

Mackintosh: To the best of our knowledge, there is not any pending funding commitment on a go-forward basis, but we understand that there is city money that has been forwarded for some yet uncompleted projects or project. Mrs. Mitchelson: Maybe the minister could help me understand a little bit what the process is, because some of the projects that have been funded over the years are tri-level agreements, some are bilateral agreements. I don't know whether the City and the Province have any agreements with housing organizations without federal involvement.

I think there are some that are just federal-provincial, but maybe he could explain to me, I guess, the different programs and how they're shared. Who is responsible for implementing the agreements, or is there a level of government that takes the lead on monitoring and implementation? How does it work? Because I am not really clear on when an announcement is made.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is, when an announcement is made that there are X number of dollars that are going to a community organization to undertake a project, how does the money flow? * (16:10) I guess I'm just trying to figure that all out, because the announcement is made, but, actually, does all of the money flow? How much of it is up front, and how much of it is paid, sort of, as pieces of the project are complete? Does that make sense? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, we'll start with the most current development and that is the new HOMEWorks! initiative.

That initiative is based on funding from the federal and provincial governments; about $61.5 million, I think, of that fund is out of $104 million. It's federal dollars that is flowed to the provinces. In fact, just as a little sidebar, there had been no discussions of this earlier in terms of recognizing the role of the federal government and the provision of that fund. Each province is rolling it out separately and differently, but they have now asked for our good will in recognizing the role of the federal government in that fund. Some people call it the Jack Layton fund, actually.

It was some arrangement that was made in Parliament to provide for affordable housing, and it was divided into two trust funds: one for off-reserve A boriginal Canadians and the other for general affordable housing. But I've had a recent discussion with Minister Solberg on this one, and I think it's important ethically to recognize the federal government. So we'll be working out how we do that in terms of

October 10, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1077 logos and announcements and so on because, I can tell you, it's always quite a rigmarole every time there's an announcement of an affordable housing initiative. Of course, we never know who's going to be there but it's always great to see our counterparts at the federal caucus and City Hall, but it's quite a procedure in terms of setting the timing up and that. So we're going to try and streamline that but recognize the federal government.

So HOMEWorks! has the federal component but HOMEWorks! as well invites municipal governments to partner on specific projects for certain communities, and there are discussions ongoing with some municipalities in Manitoba in that regard. The Winnipeg Housing and Homelessness Initiative that began in 2000 is tripartite in its nature, and so Canada, Manitoba and the City work together on that one. There are staff that co-locate to break down accessibility challenges but the funding will flow by way of agreements from each government.

In other words, each government would have agreements in place with the proponent that it will be responsible for, and it will vary in proportion depending on the nature of the project. There are always ongoing discussions among the staff as to what proportion of the needed funding should be borne by the respective levels of government. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thanks, and I wonder if I might go back. I guess one of the questions that I did ask– and we can get into that maybe as we go through project by project because there have been an awful lot of announcements over the last number of years and a lot of activity.

So I've gone through some of the news releases and looked at what the North End Housing Project, what has been announced. I guess maybe it might help if I could go through some of these and if I could get a bit of detail on how much government money through which programs– sometimes it says–maybe let me just give you an example. We'll go back to 2000 then, when we talked about the first housing and homelessness projects that were announced. I think the minister indicated they were three levels of government; there was participation from all three levels.

The North End Housing Project back at that time received money from the Winnipeg Housing and Homelessness Initiative, $29,000. It said the total project cost would have been $152,500. So, if $29,000 came from the WHHI and the total project was $152,500, where would the rest of the money come from? Were there other grants from other departments or was this private money? What would make up the balance of the amount that was announced? I’m using this one as an example but I guess. Mr.

Mackintosh: My sense after listening to the description of how the funding was made that it may be useful, and more important, to deal with project by project because there may be different arrangements, but I have that caveat. But the advice I have is that there was interim financing that was obtained by, in this case, North End Housing. It may be that any or all of the levels of government may have contributed to enhance the affordability of the construction or renovation. Mrs.

Mitchelson: If I heard the minister correctly, the difference between the $152,500 and the $29,000 might be significant other government money from one level or another, or did I hear that wrong? * (16:20) Mr. Mackintosh: Again, with the caveat that this isn't specific information on the project, but it's most likely that these were borrowed funds against the property. But there may well have been in addition to any government contributions, contributions from foundations or other funding sources, which I understand North End Housing Project has relied on from time to time.

I don't know if it's Winnipeg Foundation, for example, or–I recall that North End Housing also got money from a particular foundation and the name doesn't come to my mind right now. So there would be a variety of sources and whether they went to a bank or credit union, too, I can't speak to that. But perhaps it might be best if we could do an examination of a particular project and then the member would see project by project how financing has happened, recognizing, though, my understanding is 148 units were constructed or renovated by North End Housing.

I think that includes the current three that are not completed yet. Mrs. Mitchelson: I would ask maybe whether, for tomorrow, because I know it's getting late in the day and I know we're back at this tomorrow, if we might go through all the public announcements that have been made. I have most of the news releases and there's significant numbers that have a component for North End Housing Project. I would ask whether the department might be able to endeavour to provide for me tomorrow, either morning or afternoon–I know it's late in the day now,

1078 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 10, 2007 and you might have difficulty getting it for 10 o'clock tomorrow morning, but maybe even sometime in the afternoon, if we went through the projects to help me get an understanding. I mean, there were a certain number of units that were either to be built or to be renovated under each project. One question we may be able to answer right now, and I don't want to lose this question, so how does the money flow? I guess that's another thing. When there's an agreement under Manitoba Housing and Homelessness Initiative, does that money flow up front?

Does it flow at different stages throughout the project? Does it flow upon completion? But what I would like is information if we can get it, the number of units with the amount of money that came from the department or other provincial government departments for each project and whether that project is completed or not. I heard the minister say in his last answer that there are a couple of projects that weren't completed, and we can get into that, too. But if we could just go through that.

So maybe the minister could explain to me how the money flows from different programs within his department, and it might be different for certain programs. There was the Winnipeg Housing and Homelessness Initiative. There's the Affordable Housing Initiative, and under that I believe there's the RRAP program and other programs. The money might flow differently for different programs, and I'm just trying to understand all of this, when money is provided up front and when it's provided partway through or at the end of the project. Mr.

Mackintosh: I wonder if it would serve the member's information needs if we did some illustrative examples of North End Housing Project funding arrangements. That might be more manageable in terms of getting a timely turnaround on the request, because there may be, as I suspect, some basic models that were used over the last number of years. It may be manageable, for example, to do five or six projects and that might exemplify how the monies flow. Mrs. Mitchelson: I thank the minister and his staff for that, too.

It would just help me to understand, too, how the programs work, because I don't have a clear understanding. It's hard to be constructive when I don't know the details of the funding and how it flows. So I thank them for undertaking that. I wonder if the minister could indicate to me where North End Housing is at the present time. I just know, or I understand from the briefing note, that several members of the board have resigned. Have they got a project manager or a general manager in place, and what is happening? Have they got money to continue operating, or what is the status today? Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, it's my understanding that the board has currently seven members; that was information from earlier this month. As well, they have brought in a Mr. Ken Murdoch to provide management; that was done in mid-September. Mrs. Mitchelson: Would Ken Murdoch be there on a full-time basis or is he there part-time? Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised he's there on a part-time basis. Mrs. Mitchelson: Does the minister believe that a part-time manager at this point in time is sufficient to deal with the outstanding issues?

Are we getting information on the financial situation that we need to continue to support this organization? Madam Chairperson in the Chair Mr. Mackintosh: It's clear that there has to be a revised approach presented if there's to be continued new funding and approval for new projects. It's my understanding that there's actually a meeting scheduled for later this week with the idea that the plan would be presented. The vision of the volume of units has not unfolded due to the market conditions, and we will await what North End Housing Project sees as its continued role.

Clearly, any plan that is presented, there will have to be due diligence to determine that it's a doable work plan, that accountability measures are part of that. Hopefully, we can continue to see the role for North End Housing th at we have seen in the past where they have actually been pioneers in providing affordable housing for North End low-income families. I know that they are interested in continuing with the role, but clearly there have been some concerns and some shortcomings identified.

Those will have to be addressed if there is to be any more funding for new proposals from the Province of Manitoba. * (16:30) I'm sure that all levels of government will be keen to see a continued role for North End; they've all been supportive of that project. So we will see

October 10, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1079 what the North End Housing Project has to say and to offer and what assurances they will bring to the table. But I say, though, that the department will continue to pursue options with North End Housing. We recognize there have been challenges. It's not just in the non-profit sector; it's not just with North End, but with other affordable housing initiatives and, indeed, in the profit sector. But there's a rapidly changing market, and it's important, though, that there be a recognition of what can be accomplished. We will then await their plans. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Can the minister indicate, I know he did indicate that there's $65,000, I believe, outstanding on the line of credit. Did the $98,000 that MHRC agreed to provide to North End Housing, was it forwarded to North End Housing? Mr. Mackintosh: It's my understanding that the line of credit is $300,000 which comprises a $98,000 addition to the maximum line of credit this summer, but on the $98,000, there's only been a draw of about $64,000, something in that range, to date.

I might add for the record that, while there are overages on the operating side, if North End Housing Project decided to wind down–and I hope that will not be the result–but if it did, it's my understanding that, based on the information available, the sale of their properties would cover that outstanding amount, so there would be no net loss. That's the best information we have now, but I anticipate that the department will have a hard look at any proposal that is provided. In the meantime, because of the ongoing concerns, Manitoba Housing will be approving any disbursements under the line of credit. Mrs.

Mitchelson: The minister's confused me. He originally told me the line of credit was $300,000. Then he is indicating that $98,000 is the line of credit, or that was added to the line of credit. So then, are we saying that the line of credit is $398,000? I'm kind of not following this. Mr. Mackintosh: If they drew down all the $98,000, the line of credit would be at $334,000. Mrs. Mitchelson: I'm having a little difficulty with this. The line of credit, at one point in time, was $800,000. Is that the highest amount that government guaranteed the North End Housing Project?

Did they ever have on their line of credit any more than $800,000? Mr. Mackintosh: We'll confirm that for the member. Mrs. Mitchelson: I'm extremely confused. If it was $800,000, the gu aranteed–because the Province has guaranteed a line of credit. It has been negotiated through Assiniboine Credit Union, but the Province helped to negotiate with Assiniboine Credit Union and guaranteed that so that if the corporation, North End Housing Project, couldn't pay back the money on their line of credit, the government would be on the hook; the taxpayers would be on the hook for that. Mr.

Mackintosh: The draw on the line of credit would depend on the projects, the approved projects. So there's been a range of anywhere from around $800,000 down to perhaps around $200,000, I'm advised, but that will fluctuate depending on the projects that are ongoing and have been approved. Mrs. Mitchelson: Right, so then is the line still at 800? But if they drew down the whole $98,000 on the line of credit, you were saying that it would be 334,000, I think I heard that number. But can they still draw up to $800,000?

Is that the upper limit or has that been decreased as a result of some measures that have been put in place? Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised it's been decreased to 334,000. Mrs. Mitchelson: I'm not a financial expert, so I'm asking these questions to try to understand. So then the line of credit is at 334,000. They have drawn down 65,000 of the 98,000 that has been approved. The rest of the line of credit is there then to complete projects that haven't been completed. Am I making a proper assumption or is there something else? Mr.

Mackintosh: The amount is available for drawing down for projects that have been approved. Mrs. Mitchelson: The projects that have been approved but not completed. Is the department or the minister then saying that that is all the outstanding work from all of the projects that North End Housing has been awarded, that's outstanding? Are those the only projects that are outstanding? Has everything else been completed and completed to the satisfaction of the agreements that they were signed under? Mr. Mackintosh: The projects have either been occupied or sold, in other words, completed, although, we'll check.

But there may be some audited documents still, because that's part of the understanding, on some of those projects. We'll just double-check on that one. But, as well, though, there are three projects that have yet to be completed.

1080 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 10, 2007 Mrs. Mitchelson: Thanks. Could the minister indicate what projects those are? * (16:40) Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised there are three houses. [interjection] Three units in a project that had 14 units. So, in other words, 14 units were the total. There are three left to complete, and then there is some minor seasonal work to complete on two. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Are these, then–and maybe when the department is taking some samples from the projects that have been funded for northeast housing, whether these three might be included, so that I have an understanding of what happens when things are completed and what happens when they're still in progress and how much money would have flowed for those? Can the minister indicate whether audited financial statements have been submitted on the projects that have been contracted with North End Housing? Mr.

Mackintosh: Our understanding, but we will just confirm this, is that the audits are outstanding for the three uncompleted units and for the two others that have some seasonal adjustments–two others that have been finished. My understanding is as well that for the first few projects there may not have been that requirement; in 2000, that changed. Mrs. Mitchelson: The minister indicated that presently there are still seven board members out of the 11 that are a part of the North End Housing board. Could he indicate to me who those seven members are? Mr.

Mackintosh: I have a list: Robert Neufeld, Sharon Allard, Julio Rivas, Darlene Klyne, Larry Morrissette, Lawrence Deane and Jim Silver. Mrs. Mitchelson: Can the minister indicate when was the last time the board met and how often they meet? Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised that they've been relatively active, but we had better just nail down those dates and provide that to the member. Mrs. Mitchelson: When an organization is in a difficult situation, difficult financial situation, does the government receive board minutes and resolutions and activities? Can I ask whether there's two-way communication?

What communication goes from the minister or the department to an organization like North End Housing when there are outstanding financial issues? What is put in writing, and how is the resolution to the concern that's raised by the department dealt with in response to the department? Do they write back? Is there correspondence back and forth? Is it verbal? How do we deal with these issues? Mr. Mackintosh: My understanding is that, over the last couple of months or so, there have been regular meetings at least every two weeks or so.

My understanding is that staff have also attended at board meetings and there have been meetings with the department and board representatives. Mrs. Mitchelson: Is there anything communicated to an organization when they're in some difficulty like this, anything communicated in writing? And is there expectation that there would be a written response back from the organization? Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised that there's been a variety of communications, both in terms of meetings and of course, ongoing oral discussions, but as well there's been an exchange of correspondence. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Are any of the board members new members that have just recently been appointed? What's the process for appointing board members and are any of them, are most of them long-time, or are there any that have just recently become board members? Mr. Mackintosh: We can provide, we'll get that information as best we can and provide it to the member. Mrs. Mitchelson: Does the minister know–and he must know because there would be some financial documents based on how much is spent operating– whether, or how much board members are paid, the per diems for board members? Mr.

Mackintosh: We can make inquiries of North End Housing. * (16:50) Mrs. Mitchelson: I know that it indicates, in the briefing note, that all of the financial information that's been requested from the department hasn't necessarily been forthcoming from the North End Housing Project. So, I'm wondering whether those kinds of questions, or that kind of information is available within the department. How many meetings the board has had–and I think the minister's answer to that, partially, was every couple of weeks; what the per diems are for the board members; what's the

October 10, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1081 salary for the project, or the general manager; and what other administrative costs. Can the minister indicate where the North End Housing Project is located? I just don't know, but where is their office? Mr. Mackintosh: I think the answer on the meetings was, the meetings with the representatives of the board were every couple of weeks, but whether those were meetings of the board, I would have to confirm that. But we can ask them about the number of meetings of the board and provide that information if they'll give us that.

The North End Housing is located on Selkirk Avenue. Mrs. Mitchelson: Would the minister also have financial information on what the overhead costs are of running the office? That should be part of the financial record that's provided to the department. It would have to be. Mr. Mackintosh: We have that information from their last financial statements, but it's my understanding that there have been reductions in staff this summer, I think, in July, so we'll see if we can provide current information for the member. Mrs.

Mitchelson: So then the minister is indicating he can provide the financial information, the financial statements from last year, not this current year? Mr. Mackintosh: I just want to make sure I had that question. Is the member asking for copies of the financial statements? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes. Mr. Mackintosh: We'll just do our due diligence just to ensure that we're not breaching some protocols or any confidentiality or privacy rules, but it certainly would be my wont to make all e

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-1-17
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 1st hansardpdf 17.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	cf332bcfb1d514c25bdfce8b9d70d4ddc50fd4cf

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