Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 7 (32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-7

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, 5 March, 1982 Time - 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Presenting Petitions ... Reading and Receiving Petitions ... Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees ... MINISTERIAL REPORTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com munity Services. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I have a brief statement that I'd like to make to the House. Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to be able to make an announcement today on a subject of interest to many Manitobans.

For a number of years telephone users in our province have not been allowed to own their own extension phones. This policy was adopted initially when phones were wired directly to the telephone network. After the Manitoba Telephone System began to provide for plug-in type phones that policy became confusing to the public. Our government, Mr. Speaker, has been reviewing this issue in consultation with the Manitoba Tele phone System and has received comments directly from interested Manitobans.

As a result of that review, we are announcing a new policy that will allow resi dential telephone subscribers to own their own exten sion phones and attach them to the Manitoba Tele phone System network. This policy will take effect on Ju ne 1, 1982. Between now and that date, the MTS will prepare and distribute informational material for retailers and consumers that will provide necessary details. For example, this information will explain that only tech nically certified phones will be permitted in order to ensure that the telephone network is properly pro tected. Under the new policy, Mr.

Speaker, MTS cus tomers will continue to be required to have their main telephone set sup plied by the MTS. That set will be considered as part of the basic service. In addition, the policy is not being extended to bus iness users. For many years revenues from business customers have been used to support basic residen tial service. This is a principle that has been confirmed by successive governments and the Public Utilities Board, and we will continue to uphold it. Mr.

Speaker, we believe the new extension phone policy responds to the clear and pressing desire of many Manitobans and we trust accordingly, it will be welcomed by all members of this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. DONALD ORCHARD (Pembina): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System for his announce ment this morning.

I would like to point out that is not 150 a brand-new policy direction, that it was part of the provisions of Bill 107, which were introduced by this government and has yet to be proclaimed, as the Min ister for MTS well knows. The extension telephone policy is one, Mr. Speaker, that I had asked the Telephone System to undertake a review on to determine the potential revenue impact on the system to assure that Manitobans would be able to avail themselves of the variety of telephone extension phones, sets that were available from a number of retail outlets.

I am pleased to see that review has been successfully completed with this announcement today and the announcement of a reaffirmation of the policy of allowing customers to own their telephones, something which has been, as the Minister well knows, going on for some years now.

I would hope that over the next several months that the Minister might be open to suggestion under his proposal that this provision to allow residential cus tomers to own their second telephone set, that he might be open to legitimate presentation and review from the business community who from time to time want to avail themselves of new technology that is very rapidly changing the communications industry and from time to time new innovations in that electron ics industry allow the business community to avail themselves of some new and effective methods of communication.

I would hope that the statement that this policy will not extend to the business community does not thwart the business community in their efforts to adopt the most modern technology. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. ROLAND PENNER, Attorney-General (Fort Rouge) introduced Bill No. 5,

An Act to amend The Law Property Act, and Bill No. 6,

An Act to Abolish Certain Actions Concerning the Status of Individuals. Loi abolissant certaines actions relatives aux droits de l'individu. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of the members to the gallery where we have 26 students of Grade 5 standing of the Chapman School. These students are under the direc tion of Mr. Mikaniec. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Tuxedo. We have 50 students of Grade 9 standing of the Ken Seaford Ju nior High School. These students are under the direction of Mr.

Zuk and this school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Kildonan. There are 60 members of the Applied Linguistic Centre under the direction of Mrs. Karen Thorlakson, which school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Ja mes. On behalf of all the members of the Legislature I welcome you here.

Friday, 5 March, 1982 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. BRIAN RANSOM (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. The Federal Government Central Bank during Febru ary spent $778 million U.S . in support of the Canadian dollar. Does the Minister of Finance support that policy? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. VIC SCHROEDER (Rossmere): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As the honourable member is aware, there was a meeting of Finance Ministers and First Ministers some time ago in Ottawa during, I believe, in the month of February at which there was a discussion with respect to the value we should be placing on the Canadian dollar as opposed to other currency for a short period of time.

And there was a suggestion sup ported by all of the provinces - all of whom, inciden tally, are borrowing money in Canada and in the Uni ted States and in other markets - that it might be wise temporarily, to take a reduction in the value of the Canadian dollar as against the American dollar because of the fact that the rate in administration is using monetary policy in a so-called war against infla tion that doesn't appear to be working.

It is a disastrous policy against other western indus trialized countries and all countries in the west includ ing Canada, West Germany, Britain, France and oth ers are very concerned about the Reagan economic policies which are causing high unemployment in their countries and across the industrialized west.

Therefore, it is the policy of this government to sup port a temporary reduction in the value of the Cana dian dollar as opposed to the American dollar, recog nizing that in a very short time, we believe that policy would strengthen the Canadian dollar and put us in a better position as against the American dollar than continuing on with the current federal policies that have been followed by two successive Conservative and Liberal administrations. MR. RANSOM: I realize, Mr. Speaker, that the Honou rable Minister doesn't have to answer the question, but I'll place it once more.

Does he support the action of the Central Bank that spent $778 million U.S. in February to support the Canadian dollar? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I thought I made myself perfectly clear that we support an initial reduc tion in the value of the Canadian dollar as opposed to the American dollar and, if that is the case, then obviously we shouldn't be spending our foreign exchange reserves to prop up the Canadian dollar. I should also point out to the honourable member that this government, unlike the previous Manitoba Government, does not support a high-interest policy. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that with the expenditure of $778 million U.S., and in view of the fact that the interest rate charged by the Central Bank has risen slightly yesterday, the value of the 151 Canadian dollar is still declining during February by approximately two cents, can the Minister advise the House that if the Central Bank abandons its policy of supporting the Canadian dollar with its U.S . reserves and abandons its policy of high interest rates, how low does he think the Canadian dollar will go? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, that's a matter for conjecture, I'm sure he can guess as well as I can.

MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, if the Minister is advocat ing a policy of non-support of the Canadian dollar and of allowing interest rates to fall and he doesn't know how low the Canadian dollar will go, what is he doing borrowing in foreign currencies? MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, as I had indicated in my first answer, which obviously the honourable member wasn't listening to, the proposal made to lower interest rates recognizing that would temporarily reduce the value of the Canadian dollar was one made not just by this government, it was suggested by other Provincial Governments, Conser vative and NDP as well. There was an understanding that there might a temporary loss in foreign exchange when we're dealing with foreign loans. There was also an understanding that if we don't do something our dollar can in the long run and will in the long run, devaluate.

Now the suggestion that the honourable member makes that we are advocating a policy of having no floor at all under the Canadian dollar, is one that simply is not factual. That is not what I was saying. He is attempting to impute words and policies to this government. That is not a policy which we have advo cated to the Federal Government and that is not a policy that we would advocate to the Federal Government, so the hypothesis he sets up is one that is not in accordance with the policy that this govern ment is following.

Again, I reiterate that our policy unlike the policy of the former Manitoba Conservative Government is a policy of lower interest rates rather than the high interest rates, the Reaganomics, that group was in support of. When I say that, I remind you, Mr. Speaker, of a convention that took place several years ago in the United States when the former First Minister and his friends all came back with Reagan ties. They were tied and they still are tied to Reaganomics. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister has said that his policy is not to let the Canadian dollar slide without some bottom line, can he advise the House then what he thinks would be the minimum value of the Canadian dollar that would be acceptable to him. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, as the member is well aware, there were suggestions at that particular conference about different numbers. One of the numbers cast about was by Premier Lougheed who was suggesting 75 cents, which is about 10 percent lower than where we are right now. I've heard no one and no one on this side has sug gested 75 cents or lower.

What we have said, is that for a couple of cents, if we can reduce the rate of interest,

Friday, 5 March, 1982 that will have a tremendous effect, on our small busi nesses, a beneficial effect to allow them to stay in business, because there are so many that have gone bankrupt under the previous Conservative federal regime, the current Liberal federal regime and again I say, it was supported by the previous Conservative Manitoba Government. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister advise the House that if the Canadian dollar was to drop to 75 cents, what effect that would have on inflation in Canada? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, that is a purely hypothetical question.

I'm sure that the honourable member has some ideas as to what might happen if the dollar was at 75 cents. One of the things that would happen in all liklihood, is that the price of wheat for our Canadian farmers would be up because they would be exporting into the international market and probably getting more exports. Another effect would be that our manufacturing industries would probably be increasing substantially.

Another effect might be that because interest rates come down, inflation might be affected in a downward fashion and of course, the member for Sturgeon Creek is sitting there and saying "no" and mumbling in the same way he was mumbling through four years of Conservative Government while businesses were going bankrupt, while people were losing their homes in this province. MR.

RANSOM: In view of the fact that the Secretary of the Canadian Export Association says that he does not see that a lower dollar will increase export demand and, in view of the fact, that the President of the Asso ciation of Canadian Importers says that a 75-cent dol lar would be disastrous and that he estimates inflation would rise by 20 percent, will the Minister of Finance admit that while he is advocating abandoning the support of the Canadian dollar, that he is advocating simply letting interest rates fall, that he doesn't know to what level the Canadian dollar will fall, he is borrow ing in foreign currencies that he doesn't know the cost of, will he admit to the House that he doesn't know what he is doing?

MR. SCHROEDER: Well, I think the honourable member has asked so many questions that it would take me, if we were going to answer all of them prop erly, of course he wouldn't understand them in all likelihood, if I was going to answer all of them it would probably take me all the rest of the question period. I do believe, however, that I have answered the bulk of them. He is again suggesting -(Int erjection) - I hear Nero fiddles coming from the Honourable Member for River Heights, my goodness, Tuxedo, I'm sorry.

If anybody was fiddling that was that particular group on the opposite side, and to suggest that we should continue, as I take it from the questions of the Honou rable Member for Turtle Mountain, to suggest that it should be our policy to advocate higher interest rates and a higher dollar at this point in time, or even staying where we are; if it is his policy that we just stay where we are, as we are heading toward the ninth month or the third quarter of recession in this country, then let them stand up and say so.

Let them stand up and say 152 that they haven't abandoned their high interest policy; let them say to their backbenches that they believe that we should retain these high interest rate policies. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the members opposite are Government and sooner or later must accept that responsibility, I simply am ask ing the Honourable Minister for some clarification of policies that he has enunciated. It is evident from my questioning that he doesn't know what he is doing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Finance and I almost hesi tate to pose it since he obviously knows nought of policy of major matters, but my question quite simply to the Minister of Finance is, since his undertaking Wednesday afternoon to investigate the plight of a group of working Manitobans who have been retroac tively assessed in Manitoba alone, has he undertaken an investigation, is he now aware of their problem and has he undertaken any assistance for those group of working Manitobans? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yes, I can say to the honourable member that I have asked my staff to review that matter and I do have an initial report which indicates that there is a policy of auditing going on by Revenue Canada; as he knows that is a Federal Branch. He is incorrect in suggesting that this is a Manitoban phenomenon; that doesn't make it any the less painful for those people who are being audited, nevertheless, the issue is one of the interpre tation of a Federal Taxation Statute.

I am told that the same type of review is going on in at least our two neighbouring Provinces, that is, in Ontario and in Saskatchewan, and again, that does not make it right, but there is a Federal Statute which a federal body is interpreting. I am looking at it to determine what our response should be. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Has part of the information bank that the Minister of Finance obtained to follow through on provincial action in support of this group of working Manitobans included a letter from a Mr. Jack Dyck to Mr.

Bill Regehr, Prin cipal Secretary to the Premier, dated December 30th, on which there was no action undertaken by that government for some two months? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have that let ter with me and, in fact, I have every intention of responding within the next several days to that letter. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well that's quite interesting now that the letter has mysteriously come forward when only on Wednesday the First Min ister had no knowledge of it being in his office. Mr.

Speaker, my question quite simply, to the Minis ter of Finance, is that since he is deferring this ques tion as strictly a matter of federal concern and federal taxation, and in view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that the Federal Government acts as the personal income tax

Friday, 5 March, 1982 collector for the Province of Manitoba, does he agree that a new interpretion by the Federal Government should be retroactively applied and taxes called, in addition to what were paid by those working Manito bans for the taxation year '79-80 and indeed '81, and is he prepared to fight the Federal Government on this issue and prevent them from that kind of hindsight robbery? MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am advised initially, with respect to the last part of the honourable member's question, that Revenue Canada takes the position that it is not changing its interpreta tion; that, in fact. it can demonstrate that it has taken this very same

interpretation wherever it has audited in the past. That's something that we're checking on and certainly we're concerned that you would have retroactive changes in

interpretations if there were specific

interpretations once made by Revenue Can ada and if Revenue Canada then turns around and changes that

interpretation and goes back several years, we would be as concerned as the honourable member. Now the first part of that question, the underhanded part, the

part indicating that somehow there was something improper about the Premier not having a document in his hands that wasn't addressed to him in the first place, is one that I find somewhat offensive. I think the honourable member should apologize to the Premier. The letter did not come to the Premier, the letter was directed, in fact, from the individual to whom it was addressed to my office to which it should have come in the first place. MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Speaker, a small question to the First Minister.

What is the purpose of having an office staff which is now loaded to several numbers of people, what is the purpose of having that staff if when they receive letters addressed to the government that they are not even acknowledged as to their receipt? What is the purpose, what does his staff do to assist Manitobans in need? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY, Premier (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, I want to assure the former Minister because I understand the former Minister's concerns, and he is rightly concerned that we, indeed, have put into oper ation in our office in the last two months a system by which we are undertaking reasonably quick responses to inquiries that are made. There was some time of adjustment in order to ensure that did take place after our assuming office, Mr. Speaker, but I am pleaed to inform the member that citizens of Manitoba are now receiving reasonably rapid responses to inquiries. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON.

AL MACKLING, Minister of Natural Resources (St. James): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, the other day in answer to a question, I think from the Honourable Member for Lakeside, I indicated that I was aware of a report that had been prepared by department and that this report as I understood, was a confidential report 153 and that it could form the basis of some criminal inves tigation or prosecution. I am advised that a number of the media had received this report, which is marked in bold print "confidential." And well, you know the hon ourable member might have some information on that I don't have.

The Honourable Member for Lakeside may have more information about it than I have, because it was his former department that was involved in the preparation of this report. In any event, Mr. Speaker, - obviously they are restless on that side - since the report seems to have widespread occur rancy, I see no reason why every member of the House should not have a copy so that they can thoroughly question me on it and I will see that copies are made. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR.

HARRY ENNS, (lakeside): I rise on a point of order, firstly, any careful reading of the questionings in Hansard of my questions to the Honourable Minis ter yesterday certainly imputed no suggestion on my part or the part of this government of wrongdoing on the part of staff or anybody else, it was a simple request for a report. I am happy to acknowledge that over the 24-hour period that he has had time to con sider that question he has come to the realization that, yes, reports in keeping with often stated positions of that group of open government, that reports like this particularly that they are made public.

But, Mr. Speaker, what I rise most specifically on is the imputation that I had any involvement or the impu tation, I am rather shocked at the Minister's imputa tion with respect to his staff. If he still wants to refer to them as my staff I accept that accolade. They're a damn good staff and we're proud to be served by them, but if that is the way the Minister wants to refer to his staff that's his problem, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to speak on a point of order that the Honourable Member for Lake side has been allowed on the pretence of a point of order to abuse the privileges of this House. -(Interjection)- I am not challenging the Speaker. I think, Mr. Speaker, it is clear that the member oppo site wants to do some grandstanding, and if he has questions to address to someone on this side, he is permitted to do so. But it is an improper and untoward attitude on the part of that member to rise on some pretext of a point of order to elaborate on his position on any topic.

He asks a question or he makes a state ment; he can make a statement under the rules at certain times; he cannot rise on point of order and make speeches. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the honourable member for raising that point to the attention of the House and, I believe, it has been replied to. May I also, just in pass ing, remind all members that the reading of newspap ers in this Chamber is not permitted. The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. GARY FILMON, (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister responsible for housing in

Friday, 5 March, 1982 the Province of Manitoba. I have noted with interest the rather extensive advertising campaign that the department for which he is responsible, is undertak ing. My question is: is the Minister satisfied that the guidelines under the so-called reactivated Critical Home Repair Program are adequate to take care of critical emergency situations? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, we have reactivated a program that was allowed to fall into neglect under the previous administration and we are going to be seeing the results of that program shortly. MR. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, under this reactivated program, is it the policy of this government under this Minister that a sole-support parent with two children who is fighting desperately to maintain her own home and who qualifies within the income guidelines should be turned down for assistance for an emergency fur nace replacement because she was unable to get prior approval from the MHRC for the expenditure. MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member appears to have particulars of an application that I am not familiar with, and I think he owes it to me and to my department to give me those particulars as quickly as possible so that we can look into it. MR. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I'll be glad to share the precise situation with the Minister, but if I told the Minister that the breakdown occurred on a Sunday, that the person in question had to heat her house for a day-and-a-half with her oven and the elements of her electric range in the middle of February, and that she attempted on many occasions to get in touch with MHRC on the following day when they were open, was unable to do so and finally took the libery of getting five quotes and going ahead with it. Would the Minis ter say that this is the kind of program that he wants for the people of Manitoba? MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated, I think if the honourable member had called me on Sunday or whenever he had that information, then I would have had an opportunity to deal with it, but he is grand standing in this House and they did nothing during that period to meet that kind of emergency. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister then sug gesting that we ought to give his phone number to all of our constituents who have difficulties in dealing with the bureaucracy that he has set up? MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I have never had an unlisted telephone number and I'm prepared to listen to the people of Manitoba when they have problems. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE (Minnedosa): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the First Minister and I wonder if he could confirm in the House that Mr. Wayne Boyce, the former Editor of the Brandon Sun, has been employed by Government Information Services. 154 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. PAWLEY: I can't confirm that, Mr. Speaker. know of Mr.

Wayne Boyce's qualifications and if indeed that is so I wouldn't be unhappy with the selec tion but I can't confirm it. MR. BLAKE: A supplementary, when he finds out that Mr. Boyce has been employed by Government Infor mation Services, I wonder if he could advise the House why he has reversed his decision when he took office and said that the Government Information Ser vices was too rich and that he would be paring it done, and now there's been several additions to that staff. I wonder if he can reconcile that position. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I'm glad to respond to the question by the Honourable Member for Minnedosa because it appears that he may have misunderstood earlier remarks that I made. I indicated that the com munications system that was developed by the pre vious government indeed was too rich and there was too much overlapping, but not Information Services. In fact, I'd like to take this opportunity to applaud the role of Information Services.

During the term of the previous government communicators were established in various departments; we had the establishment of an energy-mines information section, environmental section, all really doing runarounds Information Ser vices. It is for that reason, Mr. Speaker, that I expressed my concern about overlapping, duplication, system altogether too rich. But that does not relate to Infor mation Services; it relates to the expensive propa ganda machine that was developed during four years of a previous government administration. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Stur geon Creek. MR. J.

FRANK JOHNSTON {Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the First Minister and he has now had two days to check with his department. I wonder if he can confirm that the Government Servi ces Information Services is reporting to Dan O'Con nor, the Premier's Personal Information Officer? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the matter has always been one of public record, yes. MR. JOHNSTON: Surprising the First Minister wouldn't answer that the other day. Well, Mr. Speaker, my further question to the First Minister, can the First Minister confirm that Mr.

O'Connor, the No. 1 NOP Information Officer, will approve all press releases put out by this government? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the practice has not been changed - a practice indeed that existed during the term of the previous government. -(ln terjection) Well, indeed, if it was a different practice then there is indeed an untoward fault on the part of past proce dures where the Ministers approved each release that is sent out in their name. The Minister, Mr. Speaker, is the one that is responsible for the releases, the Minis ter only.

I understand that to have been the practice during the term of the previous administration. If,

Friday, 5 March, 1982 indeed, the honourable members are now telling me that a senior bureaucrat approved their news releases, I'm rather surprised by that revelation, Mr. Speaker. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, my second supple mentary. Will the First Minister confirm that Mr. Mur ray Weppler, who was the Executive Assistant to Mr. Cassidy, the previous NOP Leader in Ontario, has been hired to restructure the Government Information Services, and will he report to Mr. O'Connor, the First Minister's Personal Information Officer? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the answer is yes. Mr.

Weppler is under a contract to review the communica tions in respect to government, as per the indication that we gave shortly after our being sworn in that communications is a very very important responsibil ity of any government to ensure its programs are well related to the public. Information Services, for t he information of the Min ister, is not part of that review.

Our concern indeed is the communicators interspersed throughout various government departments: various branches such as the ones that I mentioned, Energy, Mines, Environ ment: the existence of a branch in Agriculture dealing with communications, when on the other hand, Mr. Speaker, we have an important department like Con sumer and Corporate Affairs that I understand has no Information Branch. So, Mr. Speaker, there appears to be no rhyme or reason in the present communications system within the Provincial Government of Manitoba.

So I'm pleased indeed to confirm that we have appointed someone that indeed has vast experience working for news papers, not only in Canada, but elsewhere in the world, to develop a more rational system of communi cating programs to the people of Manitoba. I'm pleased to announce that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Springfield. MR. ANDY ANSTETT (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System.

In view of the sugges tion earlier this morning by members opposite that there's been no change in MTS policy with respect to private residential extension telephones, I'm wonder ing if the Minister could advise this House when the legislative authority for this change was provided, and for how long this authority was available to the government of this province and was not used. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com munity Services. HON. LEONARD EVANS (B randon East): Mr.

Speaker, I believe the honourable member is referring to Bill 107 which was indeed past in 1980; a couple of years ago and that Bill, it proclaimed, would have permitted residential telephone extensions; it would have permitted the policy that I announced this morn ing but for whatever reason the Bill was not pro claimed over two year.s. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memberfor Pembina. 155 MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, when is it the intention of the Minister responsible for MTS to proclaim Bill 107? MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the policy announcement we made this morning with regard to residential extensions goes a long way to meeting the requirements of the people of Manitoba, keeping with modern technological changes. However, there are other elements of Bill 107, which this government cannot agree with, such as permitting businesses to buy their own extension equipment, which would have seriously harmed the revenue situation of MTS. So, we believe there are many elements of Bill 107 that should not and could not be proclaimed. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

A supple mentary to the Minister responsible for MTS, under what legislative authority has his announcement this morning been predicated upon? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, on due consultation with legal counsel, there is a

section under The Manitoba Telephone System Act permitting the government to give direction to the telephone system which is owned by the people of Manitoba. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Then, a further question to the Minister responsible for Mani toba Telephone System. Is it his intention then to proclaim Bill 107 in the near future? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the answer is in the negative. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Stur geon Creek. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, if I just may follow up with a question to the First Minister pertaining to the Member for Minnedosa's question, in view of the extreme criticism the previous government received for hiring personnel from the paper, such as Mr. Mar tin, I remember being criticized by the previous government for that. Is their policy now changed and are they admitting that we were doing the right thing when they hire people from the Brandon Sun who were with the newspaper? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, our criticism as the hon ourable member is fully aware did not involve the particular hirings as such, but the fact that we were operating under a very irrational kind of communica tion system, a system unfortunately that was not pro viding the citizens of the Province of Manitoba with the value they should have expected from their government in order to receive communication about government programs overlapping, expensive, alto gether too rich as far as the Government of Manitoba is concerned. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, the First Minister could confirm that the best people to hire in the com munication services of government are people with

5 March, 1982 experience that have had wide experience in the media such as Mr. Martin did have. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, unfortunately, the hon ourable member still hasn't understood my point. I would like the honourable member to really compre hend this. I'm dealing with what I think is a failure in so many of our democratic governments, not only in Canada but throughout the world; indeed, and I don't blame only the previous government because it happens with Liberal, New Democratic and Conserva tive governments.

They separate themselves from the public insofar as effectively communicating programs of government. Government, in order to do well and present its pro gram in an effective way, must ensure that those pro grams are properly communicated to the public at large. Not in a way, Mr. Speaker, just for sheer political advancement in months before election, but it must be done in such a way that the citizens of Manitoba have a clear understanding of what the nature of the pro grams are; who they must contact in order to receive advice pertaining to those programs. That is a chal lenge, Mr.

Speaker, that every democratic govern ment today in the world is confronted with, the inabil ity to effectively communicate programs, the entire space in between elections and not just as, unfortu nately, happened with the previous government a few months before the election in 1981. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the First Minister has elaborated on the importance of communicating information to the citizens of Manitoba.

Was there a thorough search made of the qualifica tions of people in Manitoba for the position to exam ine and restructure the government Information Ser vices, or was it necessary to, within a couple of months, hire and NDP press officer from Ontario? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Weppler indeed is a native Manitoban for the information of the member, unlike Mr.

Scott that did work for the previous Premier of the Province of Manitoba pertaining to the Indus trial Benefits Program who was located in Toronto working under contract in the few months leading up to the 1981 campaign on that well-known program - Industrial Benefits Information Program, the Autopac Review, etc. Mr. Weppler is a previous resident and native of Manitoba, born in Manitoba. I would like, also, because I have the information now for the Honourable Member for Minnedosa to confirm that Mr.

Boyce indeed did commence work for Information Services, March 1st, filling a vacancy that was advertised by the previous administration. Also, just in case the honourable member is uneasy, Information Services had no increase in its staff since the allotment of 1967. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for question period has expired. THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Hon ourable Member for The Pas and the proposed 156 amendment of the Honourable First Minister and amendment thereto, The Honourable Member for Tuxedo has 21 minutes remaining. MR. FILM ON: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, it's a pleasure to continue in my speech this morning that I started last evening and to have had some additional informa tion placed before us as a result of the question period and some of the discussions that have taken place in the last little while. During the past few days of debate, Mr.

Speaker, the members opposite, some of their members in their speeches have taken to whining about the size of the deficit, asking about the origin or the genesis of the size of deficit, whining about the poisoned state of the federal-provincial relations in this province, and tell ing us how terrible the state of affairs that they have inherited, laying the groundwork of excuses for their future actions over the next term. But I tell you, Mr. Speaker, that won't last too long because they're going to have to act.

They may hide behind the excuses of cleaning up the mess, the big deficit for a little while but it won't last for very long. The Member for lnkster, who is chirping in with his comments now obviously didn't have enough time to finish his remarks last evening, but he told us about the poisoned state of affairs in federal-provincial rela tions between this government and Ottawa. What, of course, he didn't tell us is the fact that they now have the power to do what they want with respect to federal-provincial relations.

What is happening is obviously that his Minister is not a very strong Minister in dealing with the Federal Government.

He's wringing his hands and he's telling us about how terrible it is, all this money they are going to lose from Ottawa in the established pro grams' financing plan, and he's telling us how much money they're going to lose in the Equalization Grants, but he's not telling us that he isn't putting forth a very strong case on behalf of Manitoba, and it's obvious that they're going to lose a great deal because that's exactly what the Federal Government wants to deal with - weakness - and they now have it. There's no question about it.

We have other Ministers, unfor tunately the Minister who was speaking may not be able to hear my remarks, but in response to questions this morning, questions of concern on behalf of a constituent, his only response is to say that the member is grandstanding. A member has a legitimate concern about the policy of the government, about the inaction of his departmental staff in addressing a problem on behalf of a constituent and he says the member is grandstanding.

Well, you know, that kind of irresponsibility, not taking responsibility for the actions of their departments in their government is not going to last very long in the public's eyes. We have the First Minister, in response to the need for reco-ordinating the Communications Officers in this new Government, making the statement that one of the prime departments that finds itself without communications support is the Department of Con sumer and Corporate Affairs.

Well, he doesn't realize that there was and is a person who was responsible under the previous administration for communica tions and relations with the public in the former Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and

Friday, 5 March, 1982 Environment, but when he split up responsibilities in his Department, he transferred that person with Environment, leaving his Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs without a much-needed Public Information Officer. Well, that's his problem; that's not the former Government's problem, but he doesn't take any responsibility for it. He takes an action and he takes no responsibility for it. That's a problem this government's going to have to face eventually. The public of Manitoba will force them to face it.

I just want to see how well they cope with the prob lems that they're bringing upon themselves, Mr. Speaker, because the Throne Speech tells us that they're off and running to bring new problems to bear for their own future considerations. What's the Throne Speech recipe for bringing greater equality and opportunity for Manitobans? Greater Government spending; that's the recipe that they have to offer Manitobans. They've already started.

They've announced $23 million for Manoi!, an additional mil lion and a half to bring a very adequate security staff now under the public sector, interest rate relief and all those things. They're going to be throwing money at all of the problems. Let's talk about that Interest Rate Relief Program for just a second. We've already heard about what it can, or more specifically can't do for the farmers of Manit oba. Let's take a look at what it might do for those who are really, truly in need of assistance in the small business community of this province, Mr.

Speaker. -(Interjection)- Well, yes, they've raised a lot of false hopes and expectations, as my colleague from Morris says. The fact of the matter is they've told people they're going to solve all of the small-business problems with this new program. What are the prob lems being faced today by small businesses? The problems, of course, brought upon by high interest rates, are more significant for those people are in sales, whether that be at the retail level or at the wholesale level, because they are people who must carry inventory, stock on hand, in order to do busi ness.

If you look at other small service businesses, they don't have any strong justification for having large bank loans. They only have the staff comple ment and the service that they offer. They usually don't have a large overhead that's caused by inventory-related businesses. So let's take a look at the businesses that really need help.· They're those who have to carry inventory in large quantities in order to do business because if they don't have a wide selection, a wide range, whether it be in sizes or models or whatever type of endeavour they have, on hand, then they can't make sales.

People, if they want to buy out of a catalogue, they're going to be buying from Toronto and Montreal and other areas. They're not going to be shopping in Winnipeg or in Manitoba, so they're people who have to have inventories on hand. So what have they done? They put a limit of $350,000 in gross receipts on the business in order to be helped by their Interest Rate Relief Program.

Well, if you go around and ask-and I have - all those people out there in the small business world, in the retail or wholesale sales end of things, are not able to be helped because with the margins that they can have, with covering overhead and salaries of people who work for them, if they were 157 only to do $350,000 worth of sales in a year, they wouldn't be in business, so there's virtually nobody who should be helped. People with inventory prob lems, people with a problem of having to carry large amounts of bank loans in order to stay in business cannot be helped by their program.

You take a look at the agribusiness area which is the largest problem for the people in the field of agriculture, and you find that those people that work with and deal with the farm community, and the farm community is strapped, there's no question there, in a cash short position themselves, they've got large bank loans out and interest rates are killing them, but they can't afford to even pay their suppliers. But take a look at their supp liers.

How many pieces of equipment, and I'm sure that the Minister of Co-operative Development could tell us, how many pieces of farm machinery would a person have to sell in order to be under that $350,000 limit they've placed on gross sales a year? The fact of the matter is, it's a handful. At the cost of agricultural equipment today they may only have to sell five pieces -(Interjection)- three, well there you are. I tell you that every single equipment dealer in this province cannot qualify for their assistance, and they're the ones who are really hurting. They'll be out of business. Many of them already are.

Well, they're not going to be helped. So that's the kind of thing that we're faced with - every one of their programs. If it would do any good we might even compliment them for the expenditure of the funds, but the fact of the matter is that the funds are going to be expended with no benefits to Manito bans, to those who really need it. I think that's an indication of just how incompetent, as financial man agers, as financial operators, that government is, and it's no different than the Government of Ed Schreyer of eight years in this Province.

They didn't understand economics, they didn't understand finances, and they aren't going to be able to deal with the real economic problems of this province. They've whined about the size of the deficit. Well, last year when I spoke, and I hate to repeat myself, but there are some new members here so I'll go through it again. Last year I spoke a bit about the genesis of the financial deficits in this province over the past while. I spoke about some of the investments and some of the economic initiatives that were undertaken by that government of eight years under former Premier Schreyer.

People said, where does all this deficit come from? So we started to list all of those famous businesses that they had invested in that went out of business - King Choi Food, Saunders Aircraft, William Claire Publishing, Dormont, the computer firm, etc. etc., and we added up the investments, and the losses of those were $100 million at a minimum. It's more than that but it was at least $100 million. Then we talked about their foreign currency exchange losses of at least - I think the metre's still running - but it stands at about $350 million at the present time.

Then we talked about their investments on hydro plants that weren't required, on regulation of Lake Winnipeg and a power plant at the north end of Lake Winnipeg that a judicial inquiry said was not needed for at least 20 years, and maybe never, and we talked about another $350 million. Well, if you start adding it up you have already got a billion dollars of

5 March, 1982 expenditures, that they made during that maladminis tration, that was never required in this province, that went down the tubes at a billion dollars at today's interest rates is something in the order of $150 million a year that is going straight into interest to pay for those ill-defined expenditures and those absolutely ridiculous wastes of taxpayers' dollars. That is part of the genesis of the problem that you people have now got back in your laps to deal with. What is your answer? Get into the spending again. How are you going to do it?

You are going to go right into the same things the people said you should never be in before, ManOil. Now, ManOil as a company is into the resource development field. Where is it at? It is at the highest risk point that it could possibly be. They talk about the profits that are made by the oil and gas industry in Canada today and, indeed there are profits being made, but they are not being made at the level of drilling holes in the ground on a speculative basis looking for new sources of oil, because that is what produces the losers. Nine out of ten people who invest in those fly-by-night wild-catters who buy a

section of moose pasture, or at least get the mineral rights on it, and go off trying to drill holes in it, those people are the high risk people. If you talk to your investment counsellor or an ana lyst at any of the securities companies and ask them what the highest risk you can go into now, it is drilling for oil in any of the boon docks. What do the estab lished companies do?

They wait until the nine out of ten people lose their money and the one out of ten finds oil and then they buy up all the minieral rights around them and they invest on a sure thing, because they are willing to pay more and invest on it. But you people are going to take taxpayers dollars, those hard-earned dollars from the people on the working floor and everywhere else in this province, and you are going to invest it in the highest risk area of the stock market that you possibly could and you are going to do it because it is somebody else's money and you don't care.

Well, I tell you, people in Manitoba care about it and you are going to blow and you are going to do it and that money could be spent on needed valued health care, social programs, education and all of those things, and you are going to blow it. Another thing, Mr. Speaker, talk about this foreign currency exchange losses; they are right back into it, they are borrowing on the foreign currency market.

Those same recommendations that they turned down in the mid '70s when they made the decision at that time and they went into all of the investments that eventually cost us 16 percent and up to 29 percent on some of the loans that we eventually had to finalize in foreign currency exchange. They are doing the same thing today. It is again the highest risk thing that you could be doing in the money market, that is gambling on foreign currency fluctuations.

None of your investment counsellors would suggest it to you unless you had a lot of money to blow if you were an investor, but you people are going to do it with the taxpayers' dollars. You would never do it with your own money because it is too risky, but you are doing it with tax payers' dollars. That is the most irresponsible attitude that anybody could take with respect to today's market. 158 Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Economic Develop ment in her speech the other evening referred to the percolator-up approach to creating new enterprise.

I would suggest that the percolator-up approach may only work if they are careful not to filter out too much taxes on the way, because if they do then nothing will trickle down. They say that they are going to stimulate the econ omy through fairer taxation.

I assume that their view of fairer taxation, because it is the same view that they have espoused in the past, is more taxation on the producers in this province, and I tell you that the only taxation that will stimulate the economy is that that will provide the greatest incentive for people to risk an investment of their time, their energy and their mone tary resources for the production of goods and servi ces that people throughout Manitoba and Canada and the world require.

But who is going to take any risks today given the scenario of the Throne Speech, where there are two references to the private sector and those are only in the context of coupling them with the public sector and wanting to get into joint ventures?

Who is going to take the risks today, given the climate that says we are back into the same old treadmill that we were in the early '70s where if you invest any money and get any returns you are going to get a disproportionate amount taxed away from you, or worse still you are going to get the government take your tax dollars and set up a business in competition with you. That is the scenario that is building as I see it out of the Throne Speech. Mr. Speaker, three quarters of the firms in this prov ince are classified as small business under The Fed eral Income Tax Act.

They account for 80 percent of the jobs in the private sector, Mr. Speaker - 80 per cent of the jobs in the private sector - and these are not the faceless corporate giants that you are dealing with.

Manitoba is, indeed, a mixed economy as the Minister of Economic Development said, and I know that it doesn't fall in with your philosophy to look at those people as individuals, as friends and neigh bours, brothers and sisters, who are investing their hard-earned funds in small businesses to provide and create employment and wealth so that that wealth can be taxed and provide for needed social, health and economic services in this province. It is those small people who are going to be hurt by your funny ideas of economics. Because the fact of the matter is, Mr.

Speaker, that big businesses will survive, they have the resources to fight and to survive. The proof of the pudding is that Alcan is still willing to talk to a government that comes from the socialist side of things. Alcan can survive, they are dealing with governments all over the world; they are dealing with communist governments, for that matter, because they can survive, but it is the Alcans of this world who we don't have to worry about, they are big enough and their resources are big enough to fight even a socialist government.

It is the little guys who are going to be squeezed because you are drying up all incentive, you are drying up all opportunity for people to get a fair return from the sweat of their brow and the time and the effort that they are going to put into this, because why should they take any risks? Why should they put their lifesavings into something? why should these people who if they can't make the payroll have to go

5 March, 1982 and cash in their Canada Savings Bond so that they can pay their staff? Why should they do that when there is not incentive? All you are going to do is go into competition with them or tax away whatever they are able to have. I know that that does not fit with your concept of the economy and how it should work; I know that that does not fit with your dream and your vision of the future, but I tell you that is what Manitobans need.

Manitobans need the assurance from this government that their will be fair and reasonable returns if they invest all of their time and talents and energy in pro ducing something, in creating jobs, in creating some thing that is worthwhile for this province, but it does not appear from the Throne Speech that they can expect that sort of answer from this government, Mr. Speaker.

I tell you that at a time when small business is being buffeted by some adverse measures in the new Federal Government, by the high interest rate policies that are indeed squeezing everybody in small busi ness, the attitude that you are creating towards them by the policies that you have enunciated, if only by what you have not said in the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, is going to kill that will to go on. We are seeing it already. Last year we were ge tting the criti cism of the high increase in bankruptcy from members opposite when they were on this side.

The newspap ers said that in the first month of this year bankrupt cies are up 24 percent over the level that they said was high last year. Now, what is happening is that people who have some opportunity to carry on, who have some hope of ge tting better in the future, will carry on. They'll go and they'll take that extra little bit of risk, they'll borrow from friends, they'll put their house on the line or whatever they have to pledge to keep an enterprise going if there's a hope for t he future, but the election of this government in their first Throne Speech says that there's no hope.

They're throwing up their hands; they're calling in the receiver and they're declaring bankruptcy, Mr. Speaker, because of this government, in greater numbers than they ever had before. We saw it happen when they were in the first time. I spoke to a member of the ND Party when I was on City Council and I started to point out to him about the deterioration of the north side of Portage Avenue, which he was attributing to the advent of the shopping centres in the suburban areas.

Within one block I named him Winnipeg Piano, Morley's Tots To Teens, Miss Cox Millinery, McKinney Je welers - long estab lished businesses - went out of business because they didn't have a hope of carrying on under a New Democratic regime. That's what's going to happen now and again with this government. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rup ertsland. MR. ELIJAH HARPER (Ruperlsland): Mr. Speaker, before I acknowledg e the members of this House, I would like to speak to and acknowledge my constitu ents for they are the reason I am here. Nee-moon-en-dan ka kee woon akwin ni see-ache.

Ewkwa me na hee koos sicks ka goon oo-way uh kwee-win. Me-quech ki din na wa. Miss-ta-hee wee- 159 chee-gom ne da way-dan. Chi po pa man kwhy-uck dun-kwee-win. I am glad you have elected me. I say thank you to you all. Also this task has put a heavy burden on me. I need all the support to do my job properly. Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate you on your new position. You bring honour and respect to this position. I look forward to your gu idance and wisdom. I would like to congratulate the members of the Executive Council.

I also would like to congratulate both the new members and that we, the elected members of this Assembly. I especially want to congratulate the women in this Chamber. I am deeply honoured to take a place in this Assem bly. I am greatly honoured to bethe first Treaty Indian to set foot in this Chamber. Mr. Speaker, it is with great respect and humility that I take this seat. Govern ments have come and gone in our land for a couple of centuries. Never have we as Native people been involved in a process. It is only very recently, twenty or so years ago, that we were given the right to vote.

I must admit it was under the Diefenbaker administra tion that we obtained the right to vote. I am grateful the government was progressive. I would like to talk to you about my constituents and the constituency of Rupe rtsland. It is a unique and vast area, the area being mostly on the north and east side of Lake Winnipeg extending to the border of Ontario. The constituency is unique in that the Native people constitute most of the population - about 90 percent or more. There are many small and large communities scattered through this vast region.

It is also a neglected area; there have not been any major developments in the area, maybe except in Bissett, the southern tip of the riding. There has not been any railroads or roads built into the area except also into the southern tip of the riding. The area is blessed with abundant natural resources - the lakes, the rivers, the forests, the fish, the animals and also including the wild rice; just to name a few. With all these natural resources the Native people in the area are able to pursue their traditional livelihood; fishing, trapping, gathering and hunting.

With these traditional activities, the communities have not prospered. The quality and standard of life have not improved. The communities still have poor housing; the health among Native people is very poor; unemployment in these communities runs very high - 70 to 90 percent. As a result, there is a lot of social chaos in these communities. I have just concluded a series of meetings with northerners and Native organ izations on the subject of The North lands Agreement. During the meetings the Native people would like to see a number of items to be contained in a new agreement.

The Native people would like to see some economic activities that will enhance their lives. The Native people do not want to be a burden to the rest of the society. The Native people want to participate and contribute toward a better and prosperous Manitoba. Native people do not want handouts. We have a great contribution to make. Mr. Speaker, I would like to address the issue of Indian children that are being exported to the United States. The seemingly age-old practice of exporting

Friday, 5 March, 1982 Indian children to the United States or any other coun try is abhorred by myself and the other citizens of Manitoba. This practice is in effect stealing the child ren's future subjecting them to the forced cultural assimilation and most of all not allowing them to be raised in Manitoba where our ancestors have been for centuries. I would, therefore, recommend to this Assembly and to this government that an immediate halt or moratorium to this practice be halted.

Also, I would recommend to this government an inquiry to look at how prevalent this practice has been and to look at the possibility of collusion on the part of the officials responsible. This is an emotional subject for me, Mr. Speaker, and it is for every other Native person in Manitoba or in Canada for that matter. I might add, maybe the officials responsible for creating a black market for Indian children themselves be considered for export to their country. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to address the issue of the Constitution. There can be no doubt, Mr.

Speaker, that one of the major influences in my constituency during the November, 1981, election was the issue surrounding the patriation of Canada's Constitution. If you recall, Mr. Speaker, in the early part of November the First Ministers of Canada, including the current leader of the Opposition, bargained away the rights of Native people. As I have already stated, Mr. Speaker, the Native people of my constituency, both status and non status Indians, do not want very much. But despite the fact that my area has been ignored by both govern ments and private industry, my people are still a proud people.

We take pride in our culture, in our traditions and our history, but most of all we take pride in our tradition of honouring our commitments. In the 19th century, my people entered into a Treaty with the Queen of Great Britain. One of the terms of the Treaty was that we, as Indian people, promised to honour the Treaty and obey the laws of Canada. It is unfortunate that the Queen of Britain did not make such a promise as well, for Canadian history has shown that none of Canada's past governments have felt honour bound to live up to the spirit and intent of the Treaties.

But despite the maltreatment which my people have experienced at the hands of govern ments, we have chosen to ignore those misdeeds and believe that we can endure through all such difficulties. However, the patriation of Canada's Constitution represented the single greatest threat to the existence of my people and our rights. The provisions in Cana da's proposed Constitution would have the effect of allowing the provinces to gain a foothold over Indian rights, a foothold that they do not have and my people cannot be entrusted to them.

Provincial governments have historically never respected Indian people or the uniqueness of our his tory. We have had no reason to believe that our future or present provincial governments would be any dif ferent in their attitude. Although the clause intended to protect aboriginal Treaty rights, was not adequate, it was better than having nothing. Mr. Speaker, apparently however the First Ministers in November, 1981, felt that even the feeble clause was too much and haggled over its presence in the Consti tution, much like the buyers for Hudson Bay Co. used 160 to haggle over fur prices.

That experience taught us one important thing, Mr. Speaker. We know we can no longer sit back; we can no longer allow both levels of governments to manhandle our lives and our future. We, as Indian people, must take steps to gain control of our destiny by electing an Indian to the government side of the legislature. An important process is beginning, Mr. Speaker. This process will see Indian people fighting for our rights in the only arena that will have any proper effect, the meeting of First Ministers. I'd like to go into Ontario Native land claims, Mr. Speaker.

The claims of Native people in Manitoba have been outstanding for quite a considerable time and it has not been fairly addressed by the past admin istration. What I'm talking about, Mr. Speaker, is the fulfillment of lawful obligation under the Treaties on the Natural Re sources Transfer Agreement. Indian people in Manitoba have not received all of the land called for under the Treaties. The province is obli gated under the Natural Re sources Transfer Agree ment to make that land available. This matter has been long outstanding, over 80 years, Mr. Speaker, and there is no sound reason why it should remain so.

As well, the Metis people have a special claim that must be respected. I know that, at present, the Metis people have chosen to proceed toward a settlement of their claim by court action. But it must be clear that Metis land claims must be included in an overall Native land claims policy. I wish to relate a story that is told among my people. An old man, whose job it was to instruct the young children, was speaking to a group of them one day on the banks of a river. The old man knew the night before had been cold and that a layer of ice had formed on the river.

He told the children, however. that the river could be crossed if they were careful, but they didn't believe him. They told him, in a way that children do, that the ice was not thick enough. He told them, however, that he would do it. He picked up a stick and looked the ice over carefully, by noting the colour of the ice and sounding it with a stick, the old man made it across. He then called to the children to cross; because they had seen them cross, they knew it could be done. All of them tried and all of them fell through the ice.

They did not have the experience the old man had, but they knew it could be done and all of them climbed out of the water and tried again. They kept trying because they were not anywhere near the size of the old man, but none of them succeeded that day. The next day due to the fact that the ice had another day to form and due to the fact the children had learned to recognize the weak spots in the ice, all of them eventually made it across.

My people use that story to emphasize that it is essential to believe in things that are proven to be practical, but also not to fear the consequences of failure so long as you believe that you can do what you set out to do. As well, my people used to use a story to show how important adults are in teaching of children. It is important there be a role model for our children to follow and to see the achievements within their grasp. It has been a dream of some of our people to work side by side with the government, as well as to gain access to the government, without harming our existence as Indian people.

The people of Ru pertsland constituency are in a

Friday, 5 March, 1982 unique position of having access to the government. I hope to be able to live up to their expectations and maintain their support and their respect as their representative in this Chamber. In conclusion, I am greatly honoured to participate with you all in this Assembly. I am sure we can accomplish many things that will benefit the people of Manitoba. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. CLAYTON MA!llNESS (Morris): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, fellow members of the Legislature. Congratulations to you, Mr. Speaker, on your appointment and much success.

As a new member, I look forward to the Thirty Second Legislature. It represents to me a learning experience, one which I know will be marked both with highlights and low ebbs over the years to come. Before going further I would like to express appre ciation to the electorate of Morris for their confidence and also to the members of the Chamber on both sides of the House for their words of welcome and their wishes of success. My speech to follow will not disembark gre atly from tradition; to do so would, I suppose, break faith with a great parliamentarian, a true friend, my predecessor, Mr. Warner Jorgenson.

I pay tribute to him now, for few people to my knowledge had more respect for the parliamentary process, for our tradition of govern ment, indeed, for democracy itself. It is a humbling experience and yet one that fills me with pride to realize that a man of his stature and dedication to traditional values went before me. I know all of us wish Warner good health and much peace in his retirement from active politics. Another former member from the constitutency of Morris should not be forgotten. Mr. Harry Schulman (sic) served the constituency with distinction from 1949 to 1968; his memory lives on.

I can attest to that as his name was often mentioned during my journeys through the constituency during the campaign. One gains quickly a geographical appreciation of a riding during an initial campaign, but for a young political aspirant, history of one's riding is sometimes in short supply. I performed some research on the political history of the electoral division of Morris. Some of the find ings of that investigation may be of interest to the House. The records indicate that Morris became named a constituency of its own in the election of 1879; the fourth general election of the new Province of Manitoba.

Since that period in time it has elected 10 different members, six of those over the past 80 years. A more intriguing fact of past elections centers around the great number of party affiliations that the electorate of the area have supported over time. No less than seven political parties or non-aligned groups have won victory in Morris over the past 102 years. They include Independents for 21 years, Conservative for 24, Progr essive Conservative for 22, Liberal for 11, Liberal Progre ssive for 13, Progressive for 5 and last, but certainly not least, The United Farmers Party of Manitoba for 7 years.

I present this detail to show only that the residents 161 of the great rural electoral division immediately south and west of Winnipeg - indeed the very heart of the Red River Valley itself have always been politically astute. Independents and new parties would rise when governments and existing parties of the day failed. The constituency today is expansive, reaching from Portage la Prairie in the northwest to Morris in the southeast. It is populated by many mid to mid-sized rural towns and communities; the larger being Morris, St. Claude, Elm Creek, and Oakville.

Black soil is the areas gre atest resource and I'm sure the Member for Pembina and the Member from Lakeside, even from Emerson would agree when I say that other areas of the province have produced higher yields at times, but no area in Manitoba, and on the prairies for that mat ter, has produced grain in quantity as consistently as has the Red River Valley. Do you agree? I never expected them to agree in all honesty. Black soil, a curse at times when too much rain falls, is the envy of the world.

It is no accident that every time a flush of new farming immigrants comes to this country, even as recently as the past ten years, they select the black soils of the fertile valley first. Flowing rivers have always been a part of this riding, although the Morris and LaSalle Rivers do not dis charge for the greater part of the year as they once did when the great hay marshes existed south of Starbuck and west of Brunkild. The mighty Red was the focal point of the constituency in the early years and I sup pose it still is, particularly in those years when brea kup is delayed and spring moisture is excessive.

Floods on the Red and the incoming Morris River have provided many tests to the courage and the determi nation and the spirit of residents in the eastern part; particularly, those residents in the communities of Morris, Lowe Farm, Rosenort, St. Agathe, La Salle, Brunkild, Domain and Glenlea. On a more personal note my first recollecton of life occurred when my family was fleeing the 1950 flood.

As a very young boy I remember crossing the La Salle River at La Salle, driving between bridge railings not seeing the bridge proper, which was under some one and-a-half feet of fast-moving current; to a young person a harrowing experience. Rivers have brought the area grief at times, but today they are viewed in anticipation of the recreation and of the improved water supply they can provide to the residents of the area. The riding in many ways is diverse, many different ethnic backgrounds can be found, ways of farming differ, light manufacturing abounds, communities are unique unto themselves.

One has no difficulty in rec ognizing differences. Similarities are few but are all encompassing, particularly in the area of agriculture and of our stable rural communities. Our gre atest resource is agricultural land and people, those in con cert with nature produce the most important, and I'm sure most people agree when I say the most taken for granted good, that being food. I cannot conceal my regard for primary agriculture, it is our past and will remain our future as, indeed, it will for this great province. People often question the stability of the family farm.

Those who do not understand or who have for gotten, see agricultural rural Manitoba as something it

Friday, 5 March, 1982 is not. It remains slow to change, but change it does at the proper speed. It clings fervently to freedom, politi cal and just as importantly economics. The Throne Speech refers to and I quote "protect ing the family farm and to clinging to the rural values which shape this province." I concur wholeheartedly as does my Leader and our party with the comment, but what does it mean? I am sure there would be 57 different answers if each of us were asked that ques tion.

To me it has little to do with farm size, with community advantages or disadvantages , with soil colour or type; I feel it has something to do with per sonal initiative, knowledge of surroundings, family pride and common trust in our neighbour and fellow man in general. All of these things must come together if rural values are to remain in a position of high public esteem. I have thought long and hard about this particular issue because something happened when I was cam paigning that caused me some distress.

I drove into a relative affluent looking farmyard, whereupon I was greeted by the owner; I told him the reason for my visit, at which point he stated in complete seriousness that he wondered what support he could expect from the government as grain farming was becoming too risky and some form of financial aid would be just fine.

To this farmer, who on the surface had much, the idea of fixing his price of wheat at the cost he thought it should be worth, I think something like Eaton does I remember him saying, and the idea of fixing his man agement rate to a $30,000 plus fee similar to that negotiated by a grain handler at Thunder Bay, those ideas looked inviting. He would gladly trade his risks and indeed much of his initiative for those guarantees. No doubt many farmers would do so in spite of the knowledge but only the farmers of North and South America are free to make their own decisions and to prosper when good times do occur.

I came away troubled because I realize what must have happened to so many other industries once risk and initiative were bartered for guarantees. I come to this House wondering how long agricul ture and the family farm, as we know it, and rural values which we all find laudable in their own right, I wonder how long all these can survive. If the pressure building within the farm community for increased government involvement is not worrisome enough, the reduced economic freedom we are experiencing is. The fear of my constituents, the Sanford grain farmers, the St.

Claude milk producers, the Rosenort light manufacturers and the countless small town businesses that support all this agriculture and agriculture-related business activity, the fear is excessive taxation. Not just income tax but all forms. They do not fear taxation which is fair and has the residents of the constituency of Morris paying their share and in many cases more than their share. This is not the concern.

The concern centres around the belief that whenever economic activity wanes within the province as a whole during any government's term, I may add, that the rural area and indeed small business in general throughout the province will be expected to pick up a larger share of the taxation shortfall. People in my area are cognizant of the fact that as federal transfers decrease, as economic activity in 162 general eases, and as larger corporations who may feel oppressed move out, they know who will be asked to pick up a larger share of the revenue shortfall.

Most rural people have roots that are deep, they have taken generations to grow, roots that will not allow mobility; they are captive and captive to extreme taxation. That is not just to mention provincial taxa tion either, municipal taxation to cover massive increasing in school financing at the local level are disconcerting. My local school trustee indicated to me the other day that the proposed budget of the local school division would add 15 mills to property tax. That represents a $1,000 increase and I stress the word "increase" on two sections of farmland.

The total property tax bill would total nearly $8,000; that is not income, that is a fixed cost to farming. The people are wondering where it will lead. They are concerned about declining rural population, the pressures directed toward further school consolida tion, a reduced quality in education, real issues ever ywhere, I realize, everywhere throughout the pro vince, but nowhere as difficult to resolve as in the rural areas. Roads are a concern.

Commitments to upgrading rail branch lines have helped some, but efficiencies of modern farming in tune with the high proportion of special and non-cereal crops has resulted in major trucking of large tonnages of produce. Roads, cer tainly with southern Manitobans, are the lifeline to continued economic activity. My electorate worries, they know full well when some governments review spending priorities something has to give; roads receive the first reduction of public funding.

There are many other concerns including potential for irrigation along La Salle; flood protection for the village of Brunkild; a north-south road, and I think the Member from Portage indicated it the other day, PR 240, that north-south road between Portage la Prairie and St. Claude; the large quantities of spring runoff water from the west that inundates the La Salle and the Morris Rivers systems too frequently; and of course the more economic problems that plague the beef producers particularly around Elm Creek and grain farmers throughout the whole constituency.

All of these issues touch someone, but I see an emerging issue racing through the pack of concerns that troubles almost everyone in my constituency and indeed throughout the country. I predict that within the next five years, the issue of law and order wi II once again become predominant. Liberal views of sociolo gists, of the courts, of the media and, particularly, legislators will come under closer and closer public scrutiny. People are increasingly alarmed with decay ing moral values and the needless incidents of con frontation, of corruption, of assault and of murder.

What is at stake is what we fear the most, personal freedom. In spite of a new Constitution that sup posedly guarantees us all rights and liberties, I really wonder if the majority of people today can say that our democracies and the laws that protect it hold the respect of the people that they once did. I submit that without respect you have indifference; a state of mind that allows attack on other rights once again. My attempt today has been one of giving the House a better understanding of the concerns of my electo rate and some insight into my philosophical makeup. I

5 March, 1982 want to close by reading something Mr. Jorgenson gave to me years ago entitled "This Enlightening Gift." I do so, not to demonstrate any piousness, but to show my love and concern for freedom. If I can read, Mr. Speaker, "Why did God give the gift of freedom to man? Would it not have been much better if He had denied the gift and kept man under His controlling thumb, having him to do precise ly what he ought to do. Then, we would have no wars. no injus tice, no violence. Like obedient puppets, we would be motionless until the Great Puppeteer pulled the strings.

And He would have us jump only to the score of gentlenes s. "But, if we were puppets. we could neither hate nor love; consequen tly, God has risked everything on hav ing creatures who can love. He has His strings firmly attached to the billions of gal axies; they respond to His every touch. He governs the birds that fly and the fish that swim by the certain rule of instinct. "Man is the only wild creature in this universe. The only being endowed with the same gift as the Creator Himself, the gift of independence, the right to be free.

But freedom is not the right to do willy-nil ly what we may like, then freedom would be no different from the impulses of the ant. Freedom is essentially the free dom to do what we ought to do, not what we want to do. If we exercise our freedom to do what we, in our caprice, may want to do, the freedom is gone. Free·· dom can be real only when it chooses the ought in life. "God does not remove the gift; He gives us almost full rein. If we want to blow up the planet, if we want to pollute it so that it becomes uninhabitable, God will not stop us.

We have the awesome freedom and power to reject it, to go our heed less way and to plunge to hell. He wi II try to stop us but not at the cost of remov ing our freedom. He wants us for His own; but He wants us free." I don't know who wrote that piece, certainly it wasn't Warner. Freedom is elusive. It can be destroyed so quickly with political actions in this country with eco nomic fall- out. Mr. Speaker, I in my inaugural speech during the Throne Debate have chosen to take the high road, a new term I have just learned over the last few days from my colleagues.

I serve notice to the members in the government opposite, they can rest assured I will not always be so meek and non-partisan and non-aggressive. To you, Mr. Speaker, and to my constituents, I say thank you for the privilege afforded to me today. MR. SPEA KER: The Ho nourab le Member for Kildonan. MS. MARY BETH DOLIN (Kildonan): I' d like to begin my first speech in this Assembly, Mr. Speaker, by extending congratulations to you on your election as the Speaker of this Chamber and then, to my col leagues, the men and women chosen by the citizens of Manitoba to represent them in this government.

As I grow in experience and knowledge of the pro ceedings of this Assembly, Mr. Speaker, I will rely on the wisdom of your decisions to guide me. I would like especi ally to extend congratulations to the new members of this Assembly whom I have known or worked with in other fields of endeavour. It is a curious 163 and delightful twist of fate that brings us together to work for the people of Manitoba.

I speak of the Member for Dauphin who laboured long hours with me on the MTS executive, the Manitoba Teachers' Society; and a neighbour of mine in the north, the Member for Ru pertsland, when I lived at Is land Lake, he was hardly a stone's throw away at Re d Sucker. I am not entirely unknown in this Chamber though, Mr. Speaker.

The Honourable Leader of the Opposition, who I really wish was here to hear this, and the former Minister of Health will surely remember the spring of 1978 when our now Governor-General brought to their attention the deplorable conditions in some of our hospitals due to their policies of restraint. It became known as the great bed sheet issue and, Mr. Speaker, I know it well for I am the woman that they discussed at such great length. The Hansards from May of 1978 referred to one hysterical woman. Well, that one not so hysterical woman stands before you today, a member of this Chamber.

I would like to thank the former Minister of Healt h. It is because of incidents such as this that I made the decision to sit in this House, not entire ly a stranger to its proceedings nor indeed to its members. While it is customary to speak of the Throne Speech in one's first Address, I would like to depart a bit from that tradition and speak briefly to the members assembled here and through them to all the people in Manitoba about change and about vision. My expe rience before joining this Assembly has included over 20 years in the fields of education, administration and social services.

I have worked in the core area ghettos of a large city, in plush downtown offices, in suburbia and on isolated northern reserves. I have experienced the joys of parenting, though most of those years were spent as a parent alone. I should mention here that, like many many Manitobans, I have lost my sons to other provinces for, as they finished school and sought employment, the depressed conditions here made them just another statistic in the great out migration. I hope that times will change and I intend to see that they do, so that I at least retain my daughter in this province and my young grandson.

I have chosen Canada as my homeland, Mr. Speaker, and I have given my heart to Manitoba. I tell you this because I want you to know that I have a great deal of personal experience with change. I feel I can speak with some authority about the affect that change can have on the growth and development of our society. The 1970's signal the winding down of an era. The years, 1945 to 1975, were years of relatively easy, automatic, assumed prosperity.

Government had an easy job of it managing growth building, spending, living from day to day, a feet-on-the-desk approach that passed as so called good government in the 50's and 60's. Then came the mid '70s and the beginning of the awareness of impending change. There's was a change in our lifestyle. There certainly was a change in the economy. Changes were occurring rapidly in the workplace due to the technological explosion. Change was occurring and was precipating predicta ble reactions in society. There was anxiety, fear, a pervading gloominess.

Like children racing toward the safety of home at twilight, the people of Manitoba elected to return to the comfort of the familiar. They elected a government reflective of the '50s and '60s

Friday, 5 March, 1982 and before, but this provided them with all the protec tion of a grass shack in a snowstorm. A non interventionist government was promised to them, and I must say, it was a promise studiously kept, but this was not the style of government that was needed, Mr. Speaker. Times had changed and a new metho dology was needed, one of careful analysis and of long term solutions. Patchwork solutions simply had no effect. A wait-and-see attitude was terribly out of date. Governments ready to deal with a changing society must be directed by images of the future, not reflections of the past.

My own consituency of Kildonan is a microcosm of that changing society, Mr. Speaker. Garden City, richly steeped in north end traditions, is an estab lished area. For many years they have benefited from fine representation in government by our much loved Member of Parlia ment, David Orlikow, and also in this Chamber, by a man who has held nearly every politi cal office there is, Saul Miller. Kildonan also has a large rural and semi-rural area known as Old Kildonan, a potential growth area of mixed development.

Finally, Kildonan has the Maples; new, full of aspirations for the future, ready for innova tive ways to improve the quality of life, peopled in large part by new Canadians from literally dozens of nations. These residents of Kildonan have the same needs and desires as do all Manitobans. They want the security and warmth of home and family. They want the best possible development and use of public resources, both natural and technological. They want full employment. They want the best possible educa tion for themselves and for their children. The prob lems of Manitoba society are refl ected there, too.

There are so many For Sale signs, particularly in the Maples, that for a while during the campaign I was sure I was running against someone called Block Bros. The people from these three very different yet com plementary neighborhoods recognized that a mid century style of government was not an appropriate answer to turn-of-the-century needs. These people of Kildonan elected a new government, and in the pro cess gave me the highest vote count of any candidate in the province. I am humbled by such an overwhelm ing vote of confidence, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, and interpret the message to be the same that I heard on the doorsteps of those residents. They recognized that they could not run from change, but that they could instead look to a government that would come to the terms with the demands of the '80s and the '90s. A government facing the 21 st Century must do so with vision, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Economic manage ment no longer just happens. It must be provided. Sel ective public investment for long-term potential is essential. Consultation with the public is especially important in an increasingly complex and sophisti cated society.

The age of technology is upon us and we must prepare ourselves and our children to deal with it and to prosper from it. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I speak of government with vision, but not of a dream world. Chil dren born this year will come of age in the next century. This is the reality of our mandate. We have no time to waste. We must rebuild the pride of all Manitobans in the 164 achievements and in the potential of their province. We must rekindle their faith in a democratic, caring government that will assist them in choosing new directions. This government, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, will speak of opportunities and will arrange for them to happen. This government will repair the deterioration in the quality of our lives with innovative, timely, solid solutions. Our mandate is to create the future, not to inherit it. We can, and we will, with the people of Manitoba, choose our future together. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr. Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): The Honour able Member for Niakwa. MR. KOVNATS (Niakwa): Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate Mr. Speaker for his election as Mr.

Speaker in this Legisl ature, and also Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to congratulate you on your appointment as Deputy Speaker. I listened with great interest to the Mover and Seconder of the Throne Speech and I have taken a lot of interesting information out of the Mover and Seconder and I thank them very much for the words that they offered to this Legisl ature. If they are accepted in the manner in which they were given, I think that we will have a very pleasant, productive next four years. I would like to also congratulate the Premier and his Cabinet.

I think that he can expect the co-operation from myself in particu lar and this side of the House. I think that the people of the Province of Manitoba have given us their ideas and their choice and I wish him well, because the only thing that can happen if we don't have a successful four years is that the people of the Province of Manitoba will suffer, and I will work with the Premier and his Cabinet, and the government to see that the people of the Province of Manitoba do not suffer.

I am somewhat disappointed, however, that some of the staff that has been here in the past is no longer here serving the Legisl ature and the Province of Manitoba. I think that the criticism that was given to the previous administration about the firing of staff before they had even taken office or being sworn in, was unjust.

I think that this particular government has done somewhat the same thing, and I'm not going to dwell on it, but I'm very sorry when I look around -t he pressure that's been put on some of the new staff that has been hired, replacing staff that were very compe tent and they are not here, but I'm not about to criticize because it does criticize the Speaker's Office and I'm not about to do that. I regret that there are some members that are not here, not staff, but elected members.

I would pay homage to the three Progressives that are no longer here; I would say thank you to the contributions that those three Progressives have given to this Legisla ture. I would also like to thank the Liberal member, who is no longer here and to the contribution that she has given to this Legislature. There's a couple of others that I would like to say thank you to for their contributions; all of the members of the Progressive Conservative party that are not

5 March, 1982 here either through retirement or through being defeated in the election, and all of the members of the New Democratic party, who are not here who are either retired or defeated. To my knowledge I don't think there were any New Democratic members in the last election. I'm not sure but to your credit, congratulations! I don't have any written notes, Mr. Speaker. I think that I called the Chair, Mr. Speaker rather than Mr. Deputy Speaker because I think that's the manner in which it has to be done. I would suggest that there are a couple of members that I would like to pay particular honour to.

One of them is the Honourable Member for, I think it was Flin Flon, Tom Barrows. Tom was one of the greatest peo ple I know, still is. I know that his health is not too good and that is partly the reason that he is not here repres enting his area now, but even though he was in not good health during the last Session, he attended regu larly and he's got to be commended for it.

I've got a couple of little things about Tom that I would just like to bring out; about how friendly he was and how he offered me his friendship and the many years of service that he had had in the Legislature, and it was pretty nice as a new member coming into the Legislature and having a fellow like Tom Barrows come up and say, "Abe, you're going to do all right." I said, "Tom, that's beautiful, how do you know that?." He says, "I remember, I followed your career through football and you're the great est." Boy oh boy, thafs fantastic when you get a person like Tom Barrows giving you that type of a compliment.

I had the honour of visiting Tom when he was in the hospital and we used to discuss a couple of things just casually and Tom once mentioned to me, he said, "Abe, you know you always keep talking about how good I am and my experience -y ou're the one that ve the I harespect for and if you ever get to Calgary, will you go and visit my son?.

I said, "Sure, why would you want me to do that?" He says, "Well, you know my son is a policeman in Calgary and he thinks that you are a terrific football referee and you're a friend of mine; I want you to go and say hello to my son in Calgary, if and when you get there." I said, "Tom, I'd be happy to do so, but do you really want me to?" He says, "Oh yeah, there's only one thing I've got a little bit- of reservation." I said, "What's that, Tom? He says, "You know what, I think he's a Progressive Conservativ e." Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make some reference in a language that I'm quite conversant with and I have a few remarks "en francais." I don't have anything really written; it's going to be in a little bit of a humorous vein to the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, The Hon ourable Minister of Health, about some of the French that I have learned through my efforts to accept the language and to accept the culture of the Franco phone, which is a beautiful culture and I have studied it, but some of the French I have learned is: Voulez vous prendre un verre?

I learned that the very first thing, which was, "Would you care for a drink?" It became too expensive, so I threw that out of my vocabulary. The next thing that I learned was: J'en ai une, which is "I have one. " That cost me a few drinks too, so I threw that out of my vocabulary. The next thing I learned was: elle n'a pas de bas, which is "She doesn't have any stockings." To work that into a con- 165 servation was ridiculous so I threw that out of my vocabulary. Ou est l'echelle?

"Where is the ladder?" You don't use it very often, so I've really not had that much use of the French language even though I love the sound of it, it's a beautiful sounding language, and that's as much French as you're going to get out of me here today. I would like to be bilingual; I am not bilin gual. I have an understanding of both languages, but I am not bilingual and I tell this assembly that before too long, at my own expense, that I will be bilingual.

Prior to the change of government I tried to make some arrangements through our own provincial government to see that some of the members and some of the staff would have ihe opportunity of being able to attend French School and I think that's coming about. I think in the Throne Speech there was some mention about the furthering education of French here to the people of the Province of Manitoba, and I would hope that it would include the members of the Assembly here and some of the staff. I would just like to mention, Mr.

Speaker, that maybe somebody either heard that I was speaking or locked the doors; there's very few people up in the gallery and if the doors are locked I would hope that they would be reopened so that the people can come in and listen to the wise words of wisdom. The people in the press gallery must know some thing about the safety of the building that I don't know, because there' s only two of them here but they're going to get quality and I appreciate the people in the press gallery being here to listen to my speech from this side of the House.

It's the only time I've ever made any speeches has been from this side of the House because I've always sat on this side of the House because of the numbers. The only difference is when I looked across from this side of the House, I enjoyed much better looking across, previous to this last elec tion, to the people that I saw over there. Now I'm going to get around and tell you a little about the new constituency of Niakwa which I have the pleasure to represent.

I was not always settled whether I would run in Niakwa or whether I would run in Radisson, which I had the privilege of representing prior to the last election. Contrary to what I was accused, I didn't shirk my duties and run to a safe seat because no safe seats were available in the Province of Manitoba, as was quite evident, but I ran in an area that I lived in and I represent an area that I live in, now that I have been elected. Niakwa has never been represented by anything but a Progressive Conserva tive.

It has only been in existence for a few months but has never been represented by anything but a Pro gressive Conservative. Niakwa includes Niakwa Park, Niakwa Place, parts of Windsor Park, all of Southdale and some of south St. Vital. It is part of the old consti tuency of Riel, part of the old constituency of St. Vital and part of the old constituency of Radisson. I repres ent parts of two former cities before amalgamation, St. Vital and St. Boniface; it is a unique position. I am one of five members on the east side of the river that come from an area - either St. Vital or St.

Boniface - and even though the other four members are New Demo cratic party members, I am proud to be part of that group of five representing that area on the east side of the river. The Niakwa constituency has many small market

Friday, 5 March, 1982 gardeners. greenhouses, but it is mostly residential, a new residential area. I have lived in the area for more than 25 years to be honest - (lnterjection) -y es, I am that old. The area. and I remember the area well, was all farm area prior to the development. particularly the first development in Windsor Park.

They have deve loped the area well; it is new houses, it's many apart ment blocks which were, as it happened because of rent control or the lack of rent control, were not my supporters in the last election, but through the amount of people that were there that were my supporters I am happy to be here today. I listened to the Attorney-General - I guess it was yesterday - I liked the manner in which he presented his views. I don't care for his views, but I like the manner in which he present them.

I heard many other new members speaking, the Member for Thompson. who got up in the question period just the other day - yesterday I guess it was - and asked a leading ques tion. I would imagine it was a leading question and absolutely no discussion with the Minister who it was intended for. I believe that. It reminds of, I guess, it is a children's story, I guess, it was Pinocchio and Gepetto where Gepetto was dangling the strings and little Pinocchio was dangling there and doing whatever Gepetto had him doing. Gepetto was nodding his head in the front row.

But I will tell you what you have to be aware of when I make mention of Pinocchio, every time that he told anything but the truth, his nose started to grow. I would advise that there could be a lot of long, pointed noses on that side of the House if you keep up some of the points of which you came through during the election campaign. -( In ter jection) - The nose is part of my heritage; it's not because I tell lies - (lnterjection):_ I've got something about my mother coming up in a short time because I have a great respect for my mother and father who taught me a lot of things.

They are no longer around , but I remember many of the things and I will make some reference to both my mother and father a little later on. The Honourable Attorney-General made some remarks about some of the movies. that he was com ing up with some titles.

I can't remember the titles but -( I nterjecti on) - was it "Gone with the Wind?" I have to wait for four years before we can have it - "Gone with the Wind." There was a sequel to "Jaws." What was it, "The Mouth that Roared" or is that "The Mouse that Roared?" I' ve got some mention concerning "The Mouse that Roared ." "The Mouse that Roared" was an old Peter Sellers' movie and, I think, you might recall where a little Dutchy over in Europe decided that to get some benefits they would declare against the Uni ted States and then lose and then receive all of the benefits of being at war with the United States. - (Interjection) - I'll get around to that.

What had hap pened was the United States believed that they had something called a "Q" bomb and therefore were ready to surrender and the little Dutchy beat the Uni ted States at war. Now, this is something that we could take into account because of our discussions with the United States. I am not suggesting that we go to war with the United States, but where we have this Garrison prob lem with the United States.

The Honourable Minister, who has his back to me isn't listening so I will speak up 166 a little bit so he can hear me. who has just come up with some regular security police, so now we are going to have our own army. We've had our own Air Force with Saunders; we've had our own Navy: the MS Lord Selkirk: and the Honourable Minister has just given us our own Army.

I don't think that we can afford to go to war against the United States, but maybe we should threaten them concerning this Garrison because we don't want their contaminated water and let us tell them so, not just by talking about sending a man down to the United States. Let's tell them we don't want that water contaminated and let us do something about it. I can almost assure you we lost the last election because of our arrogance, lack of a rent control policy that was really acceptable to the people who were paying rent. because everybody is looking after their own interests.

The people who were paying rent were looking after their own interests and that is part of the reason that they voted us out of government. and I can accept that. But I' ll tell you, I don't like to be ridden and accused of things that are not true. I met one chap not too long ago, who, when I was introduced to him, came to me and said, you shouldn't even be in the Legislature. I said, well, maybe I shouldn't. He said you won't be back the next time. I said, maybe I won't. He said I'm going to do everything I can to see that you don't come back.

I made a very very disparaging remark to that gentleman, and I apologize. He is not here and he will never know that I am apologizing, but I apologize because he beat me in the discussion because I lost control. I called him a dirty name, and I have never done that, or very seldom do I do that, because what happens is if you lose control and you resort to swearing it's lack of vocabulary and you'll lose the argument. and I lost the argument.

But I'll tell you, you know, there's many, many words of wisdom that can come from this side of the House and, you know. if you listen and don't smirk, and don't go bang ing the desk like you're trying to set the world on fire by showing everybody how hard you can bang the desk, I think a polite applause by banging the desk would certainly suffice, because you can hurt your hand, and really you're not accomplishing anything. Are you trying to impress me with the manner in which you bang on the desk?

It 's really not impressive at all, and besides. -( I nterjecti on)- Well, I can accept that, to the Honourable Minister of Health because that is absolutely acceptable when you are congratulating me for the manner in which I am speaking. But you know. if you keep banging the desk you're not going to even last the four years that I'm telling you you will last and then be gone; you keep banging that desk, you'll be gone long before the four years.

You know, I didn't write anything, I just made notes, and this is the first time that I' ve ever delivered a speech in the Legislature just by notes because I'm afraid silly of Wally McKenzie - I'm sorry, the Hon ourable Member for Russell-Roblin - because he tells me, and he's my officemate: "Abe, you can't read from a prepared speech," and I said, "Well, you know. what am I going to do? I don't know how to give a speech without having something written there." He said, "Just a few little notes, " and oh boy, you know, a few little notes here.

So I made a few little notes and here it says, "Dad, can you pay this today? I' ll pay you

Friday, 5 March, 1982 back Friday." It is my my son, Gordon, left me a note and I think he got a parking ticket, so I got it mixed up with my notes. I go back a little way with some of the members here. I go back a long ways with the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, the Honourable Minister of Health, a pleasant association from a long ways back. We were associated in football and, I don't know if I've never said thank you to the contribution that you made to my football background, I do it right now. Thank you. I also go back a long ways with the husband of the Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park.

We played football together many years ago in the Norwood-St. Boniface Legionnaires to a Dominion championship, Mr. Speaker, a Dominion championship because we were that good, but we did have the support of the New Democratic Party member over there. -( Interjec tion) - Oh, he might have been I don't know. I don't know. I would like to also make some remarks. I enjoy listening to the Honourable Member for Rupertsland today.

He spoke with feeling, honesty and he got across the point that I wanted to hear, that the Native people of the Province of Manitoba must be heard, and will be heard, because we have a good represen tative in that man. I have met the Chief prior to today, I have visited up in Red Sucker Lake. I don't think there too many here in the Legislature who have been up there. I happened to be with the Minister of the Envi. ronment when he was there, it was on government business when I was part of the Government and it was the opening of the Red Sucker Indian Reserve.

They had just moved into a new location at Red Sucker Lake and I went through the Pageant, the Pageant of the Red Sucker Indians coming to Red Sucker Lake and they took me out in a sort of a canoe with a hole in it, in the side of the canoe, out in the middle of the lake, and it was raining, and I had a couple of people out there who were paddling for me, and I wasn't too happy, you know.

It was raining and the boat was filling with water, and I was sitting in the bottom of the boat in my brand new suit. -( Interjecti on)- I'm not sure what the message was, whether in fact it was Hail and Goodbye, because although I wasn't afraid, because I thought, if I go eut with these two fellows, that they've got to go out and they've got to come back, and maybe they'll bring me with·them, and they did. I enjoyed my vist up at Red Sucker Lake, but there are many things that have to happen up in Rupertsland in the Red Sucker Lake area, and it's going to cost a lot of money.

I hope that we've got it with all of these other promises. I hope that the promises that were made to the Honourable Member for Rupertsland can be fulfilled. I don't know what personal promises were made to him, but I know that, in fact, something must have happened. They've got 15 amp service up at Red Sucker Lake. It's ridicu lous. They must have their electrical service improved, and that will be through the Manitoba Hydro. They've got to do something about the electrical service, and there are many other problems.

The airport out there; we were flying in and it was raining, the pilot looks out the window and he said, "Abe, you know, if we land right away we can make it. You can't stay too long cause we've got to get out of there." These people 167 need the improvement. I would hope that this is all part of the plan that the New Democratic Party Government have for the people in the North. I've still got my notes. "Bring home a loaf of bread and a quart of milk." It's from my wife.

You know, we have, I guess it's seven ladies in the Legislature; the most number of ladies that we've ever had before and I commend the ladies on their election to the Legislature, their election to the Cabinet. - (Interjection )- Well, they're still ladies to me, and if that's distasteful I guess I'll suffer with it. I've got a couple of things that I would just like to - Oh boy, you know I wasn't planning on talking this long, Mr. Speaker. Am I limited by 12:30 or - (Interjectio n) - Okay.

On a serious note I've got three ladies here on my card of people that supported me in the past that I would just like to have in the record. I'd like to have it in the record here, and this is a serious thing because they are no longer with us today. An Olive Madsen who died recently because of a kidney ailment and is no longer with us, this woman who worked for me in my campaign was on kidney dialysis and was making telephone calls for me. Like, how can you say thank you to people like that? I just love them.

I lost another couple of friends in Gladdie Maclean and Marg Johnson, and I don't think that I want to get in to the details about it, but I just say thank you to these people and their families for the help that was given to me in the past. I've got a couple of remarks for the Member for Elmwood. I still haven't read his book. I guess it will turn up in Hansard to show that I haven't read his book. I really don't care to. It could be in the library, but as soon as it gets a little warmer and I'm able to use his restroom across the street I might take the book across there and read it.

To the Honourable Minister of Education, I've got a couple of little remarks. Increased funding to Public Schools - I agree. Great! I don't know why we didn't do it or maybe we did, but I'll tell you -( lnterjectio n) no, but I'll tell you, you haven't gone far enough. The Minister was asked whether she would be increasing aid to private schools.

The answer was, "No." I've a great support for private schools and I'll fight you all the way unless you're going to give some extra sup port to private schools the same as you've done to the public schools, because I will support anything that's fair and not support anything that's not fair. Now, I'm going to get back to a couple of other subjects that were under discussion that I mentioned that I would just touch on a little before. Those people who have been around for a little while will remember a bakery store or a chain of bakery stores here in the province called Picardy's.

My mother, God rest her soul, used to always tell me that she baked her own pies. She never baked her own pies. She used to go to Picardy's; she used to go to Picardy's and buy a pie and leave the box right in the garbage there and you could see it was Picardy and, "Mom, did you buy that at Picardy's?" "No, I baked it myself." She'd like to take credit for something that she didn't do. And I'm not being critical of her because those Picardy pies were good.

We have three Mega projects here in the province, the Alcan, the Power Grid, and the Potash, all that can be of great benefit to the Province of Manitoba, the future of the Province of Manitoba, and,

Friday, 5 March, 1982 Mr. Minister it doesn't matter who takes the credit for it. Just get it for us. I will accept that it is all the New Democratic Party who brings in these projects but we need them. I was out canvassing during the election and I ran into a chap from the railroad. I thought all railroad people were supporters of the New Democratic Party. He said, "Abe, you know, what you are doing? You are gua ranteeing me se curity in my job working for the rail road, because if any of these projects come along, everything will be fine." He did support me to the point of putting a sign on his front lawn.

We must develop Limestone, we must develop the Manitoba Hydro. Hydro - the terms of reference for Hydro to supply power to the people of the Province of Manitoba at the lowest possible price I accept that. I think that we've got to extend the terms of reference for Hydro. We've got to encourage them to develop hydrogen power. Manitoba's future, I think, will be in hydrogen power. Hydrogen power will be developed because we have cheap electricity here in the prov ince and a great water resource, and that's what you require for hydrogen power.

The Federal Government is now giving many millions of dollars - I read an

article in one of the magazines that I just got the other day where the Federal Government has been giving the Province of Ontario and the Province of Quebec additional millions of dollars to develop hydrogen power. Why can't we get some of those dollars to develop our potential? I was very pleased to hear from the Minister respon sible for the Manitoba Telephone System. On August 31st of this year, my wife and I celebrated our 25th Wedding Anniversary. I don't think that's a record.

She's the same wonderful lady that I've always had around the house and she has looked after my child ren -( Interjectio n) - Who, Len Evans? Oh, I was talk ing about Len Evans. Well, the Honourable Minister - I will get back to Len Evans. My wife accuses me of being a chauvinist. Hey, and that's an improvement. I used to be a chauvinist pig.

But at our 25th Wedding Anniversary on August 31st, some of our friends gave a very very nice -( lnterjectio n) - well, it was gadgeted, telephone, but it was one of those old type and a beautiful telephon e and one of the people -( Interjectio n) - We've been afraid to plug it in and use it, but I must admit, we tried it you know, it might not be in service all the time but I would think that the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources is going to need four or five telephones with his invitation this morning that people should call him at home. It wasn't a very wise invitation.

I know it's open government and I respect the Honourable Minister for allowing people or telling people to phone in, and if I had the number, I would broadcast it, because I think you know that it should get in there but I'm sure that if they phone Information they can get it. Today is kind of an unique day. Not just because I'm speaking and the gallery is still half empty and I lost one from the press gallery, but today marks the first day of the second year that I quit smoking. It's been one year today since I've had a cigarette and I still want one so badly. I dream about smoking at night when I'm in bed.

It's all I do, is dream about smoking but I'm not going to go back to it. It's damaging the environment. I don't like it. I'm not going to try to talk 168 people who do smoke out of smoking, that's your business. I really don't want to make any remarks about Gasp and all that stuff, but I'm absolutely against smoking, I'm absolutely against any contami nation of the environment and that's another thing. The Honourable Member for Radisson and I have got a mutual cause. We have got a smell over in that area that we have got to do something about, to The Hon ourable Member for Radisson.

The environment - I went by there last night on my way home for supper, it was the first time that I was able to get home for supper for a while, and I went by and that smell just is awful, but I wouldn't want it eliminate it completely because it would give me nothing to complain about over in that area. I would hope that maybe scientific advancement today could make that smell, that turns your stomach, into something that maybe smells like lilacs so that we can put up with it, but I wouldn't want anybody to lose their jobs if we did put too much pressure on the environment group.

I really haven't got that much more to say. I guess I've got what, about five minutes, Mr. Speaker? - (Interjection) - I know I'm taking some of you people from happy-hour time and I really don't care because I am going to speak. I haven't had the opportunity of doing so, as the previous Deputy Speaker of the last Legislature and Chairman of Committees, because at that point you are restricted somewhat inasmuch as you really can't speak your mind.

I would hope that the new Deputy Speaker and the new Chairman of Com mittees, Committee of the Whole House will speak their mind, and if it is against government policy, speak your mind anyway, so you'll be out of here a little sooner than the four years. But, this afternoon, I am on my way out to Menisino and I am going to speak about Menisino, which is a place that is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Emerson. I am one of his constituents. I grow blueberries out at Menisino. -( lnterjectio n) That's right, I also grow potatoes, corn and I grow way more than I can use.

I have always offered the people of the Legislature some

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-7
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 7.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	cf5394d7b7848fa085bef2da61e93268fe029aa3

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