Manitoba Committee Hansard — 23 June 1992 (Legislative Affairs Committee, Sitting 8, 35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-la8

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Third Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba STANDING COMMITTEE on LAW AMENDMENTS 39-40 Elizabeth II Chairperson Mr. Jack Penner Constituency of Emerson VOL XLI No. 8 ·10 a.m., TUESDAY, JUNE 23, 1992 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Msnltobs ISSN 0713-9586

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOM IAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACOUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FI NDLAY, Glen, Hon. FR IESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAM MER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALP INE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUF EL D, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZN IK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFA NSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Glmli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

237 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON LAW AMENDMEN TS Tuesday, June 23,1992 TIME -10 a.m. LOCATION-Winnipeg, Manitoba CHAIRPERSON -Jack Penner (Emerson) ATTENDANCE· 10- QUORUM· 6 Members of the Committee present: Hon. Messrs. Ducharme, Ernst, McCrae, Hon. Mrs. Mitchelson Ms. Cerilli, Messrs. Larnoureux, McAlpine, Penner, Santos *Substitution: Mrs. Dacquay for Mr.

Orchard APPEARING: Jean Friesen, MLA for Wolseley WITNESSES: Irene Frigo, Private Citizen Mike Maendel, Hutterian Education Committee John Jack, Council of Caribbean Organizations of Manitoba Gopal Pandey, Sr., Private Citizen Prag Naik, Hindu Seniors Club of Manitoba Inc. WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS: E.

C. (Jock) Lowe, Private Citizen Delbert Plett, Private Citizen Jonathan Kroft, Vice-President, Winnip eg Jewish Community Council; and Mira Thow, Chairman, Intercultural Affai rs Committee, Jewish Community Relations Committee Pram Shalla, Private Citizen Hemant Shaw, Private Citizen Casimiro Rodrigues, Private Citizen Leo Y. Liu, Westman Chinese Association Stuart Greenfield, Private Citizen MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: Bill 98-The Manitoba Multiculturalism Act *** Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Will the Standing Committee on Law Amendmen ts please come to order.

This morning the committee will be considering eight bills: Bill 78, The City of Winni peg Amendment Act (3); Bill 86, The Provincial Police Amendment and Consequential Amendmen ts Act; Bill87, The Law Enforce ment Review Amendment Act; Bill 93, The Mental Health Amendment Act; Bill 96, The Special Operating Agencies Fi nancing Authority Act; Bill97, The Winnipeg Bilble College and Theologic al Semina ry In corporation Amendmen t Act; Bill 98, The Mani toba Multiculturalism Act; Bill 1 01 , The Statute Law Amendment Act, 19 92. Committee Substitution Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Services): I move, seconded by the member for Charleswood (Mr. Ernst), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendments be amended: Dacquay of Seine River for Orchard of Pembina. Agreed. *** Mr. Chairperson: As was agreed to by the comm ittee last evening, the committee will be hearing presenters on Bill 98 this morning. In addition, we do have presenters registered to speak on Bills 86, 87 and 96. I would also like to advise the committee that this morning a written submission for Bill 78 was received and two on Bill98.

These briefs have been distributed to the committee members. Does the comm ittee wish to have this brief included in committee Hansard for this morning? Agreed. I will now read the names of the persons who are registered to speak to the bill this morning. Joe Glasgow, private citizen; Gabriel Dufault, private citizen; Gene Lloyd, private citizen; Jock Lowe, private citizen; Les Latinecz, private citizen; Frank Fiorentino, Italian-Canadian League of Manitoba; Mr. Pandey, Sr., private citizen; Prag Naik, Hindu

238 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 23, 19 92 Seniors Club of Manitoba Inc.; Anotonio Portillo, Immigrant and Refugee Organization of Manitoba; Irene Frigo, private citizen; Mike Maendel, The Hutterian Educ ation Comm ittee ; Kyle Goomansingh, Indian School of Dance, Music and Theatre; and John Jack, The Council of Caribbean Organizations of Manitoba, are on Bill 98. M. Samphir, City of Winnip eg Boar d of Comm issioners; AI McGregor, Winnipeg Police Association, are on Bill86. For Bill87, we have AI McGregor, Winnipeg Police Association, and M. Samphir, City of Winnipeg Board of Commissioners.

Bill 96, The Special Operating Agencies Financing Authority Act, we have Mr. Peter Olfert from the Manitoba Government Employees Association. Those will be the presenters this morning. Are there any others in the audience who would like to make a presentation this morning? If so, would you please indicate to the Clerk's office, either at the back of the room or to one of the people at the front of the room here. I will now ask Mr. Joe Glasgow to come forw ard, please. Is there a Mr. Glasgow in the room? This is the second time I am calling these names, and this will be the last time I will be calling these names.

Gabriel Dufau lt, is Mr. Gabriel Dufault in the room? Is Mr; Jean Lloyd in the room? Is Mr. Jock Lowe in the room? We have a written presentation from Jock Lowe, and that is one of the ones, I understand, that we adopted this morning for the inclusion. Is Les Latinecz in the room? Not in the room. Is Mr. Fiorentino in the the room? Not here. Is Mr. Pandey, Sr. in the room? Not here. Is Mr. Prag Naik in the room? Not here. Antonio Portillo, is he in the room? Not here. • (1 01 0) Irene Frigo, is she in the room? Ms. Frigo, would you come forward please. Have you a prepared text for distribution to the committee?

No, you have not. Would you proceed then please. Ms. Irene Frigo (Private Citizen): Good morning, Mr. Chairperson, minister and all of you, citizens. I am very pleased that I could participate in this. I never had a chance to express myself as a citizen, what I fe el. Bill 98 puts everything as I would put myself. Here, I think everybody would like to know what is my background, where I came from 27 years ago to Canada. It is amazing. My family, my late aunt and uncle, they were both different citizens. One was Ukrainian, one was Lithuanian. So what happened is, when I came to this country, I felt very good.

Once it was December, New Year, and I saw something very special in the paper. It was a congratulations and wishes for a happy New Year in all the languages. To me, I felt like the whole world in one, something similar like this, the whole world in one. It does represent all of us, all Canadians from most of the different countries. What struck me in those years that I observed and grew with this country for 27 years, because I came to this country as a young girl, 18 years old from an iron curtain country.

I do have a chance, and I did have a chance to grow together with my children, finding the difficulties through the schooling. I had to go and meet the people, meet the teachers, the barrier of the language-which some of you will recognize right away, I am not very good in English, but please forgive me. My point here is, how mu ch this country progressed and offered . This is a very beautiful thing. Like I said, the whole world in one is in my heart and is in this bill. Here we had the opportunity to express ourselves, express our culture and the language.

It shows so obviously the help and encouragement from the government, but always we find there is some kind of dryness. Yesterday, I had the privilege to listen to many of the speakers beginning from the very first speaker, who is of a little bit older times and progressing in the fu ture. It reminds me of many things that my late aun t and un cle told me. New Canadians, newcomers to that country, and at that time how hard they had to struggle for whatever we have now. Thanks to this government, thanks to our bright minister, Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson, because I admire very much the work she has done through the communities. It does not take just sitting in a chair and thinking about the laws and stuff like that and putting the dryness in, but you have to be an active person to go and mingle among the people and all the children and have the fee ling. Law without feeling has nothing, is dry, very dry law. People who have some heart, understanding and love will see that.

When I had the privilege to read Bill 98, it was written with a love and an understanding, a person who did walk among the other nationalities of people, a person who had done a job with the

June 23, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 239 feeling, not with the dryness putting just a few words, and this is a law, but a person who did feel, see, recognize, and see the beauty of everyone. Every Canadian who can-1 am a proud Canadian, and I shall always live and die for the country. Maybe some of you might think, well, I am stupid, but when I had chosen to come to Canada, I was not forced to flee, I came on my own free will. This country had accepted me under free will, and I feel as a true Canadian, and I am proud to participate in any way I can to help, to develop this bill.

Maybe if our minister would have written this bill a few years before, maybe we would be able to avoid the conflict we have right now with Quebec. To me, as a Canadian, it is all together. There are no distinct societies. As it says in this bill, we are all equal, the whole world in one. We are all Canadians. I think, as a Canadian citizen, I feel that everyone, every Canadian citizen should feel that way. If I come to this country, I want to live, and I see what this country had offered to me. In a short 125 years, which is what we will celebrate now, this country progressed a lot.

If anybody knows, and I am quite sure everyone knows the history of Europe, the struggles we have among people, their own selves. What I say about my own native country, Poland, a beautiful country with a very rich history, with the wars and everything else, it applies to all the European and other countries. Now in here, whoever came to this country should recognize and see and work toward that peace, which is here in this country.

I did find peace, and also the government who recognized my background, who helps, who is not making fun of me because I am a different nationality, but does value everything that we work and bring here. It is a joy to know and see the very beautiful event as in Folklorama. It is here in Manitoba. Here, Manitobans create that. Here, people with a good will and people with a lot of encouragement encouragement from whom? Yes, from the government. If we would not have that encouragement from the government, where would we be? Okay, I will tell you a little, tiny thing that concerns where I come from. *

(1020) I started to participate, joining with the flow when my children started going to school. I am in a mixed marriage. My husband is Italian and I am Polish. Here it is: How are you going to raise your children? How are you going to do that, if your child will go in ltaiian or in Polish? How are you going to do this? So it is for both parents to decide. The flexibility I and my husband left to our children. One of the late priests said, you let the children decide what they want to do. Yes, they did decide. They said, well, Mom, we would like to learn Polish. It is a very hard language.

Italian is very beautiful, it is a singing language. I wish-and now my children always tell their father, Daddy, why did you not teach us Italian? I see that. I encouraged my children to learn both languages. My husband did not put that input, that you learn that. But I said, children, you have an option. What is so important? Here our government recognized this in universities. It does recognize our culture. You are born, you are a Canadian, but have the culture of your parents. So my children are looking forward all the time to participate. My son, he is volunteering all the time with scouts.

There in their hearts is no such a thing that one has to be only Polish or Italian or whatever. In their hearts, I put in that we are all one and we work together. My children do work together with the scouts groups, and that is a beautiful thing. But, this bill, we have to help to grow, help to develop, not to have, all the time, negative things. Many speakers, yesterday-last night I heard always: Why do we need this? Why do we need that? "Why" was okay. Every society could do something on its own.

Money is one thing, but to me encouragement from government and the co-operation means more than anything, because if everyone will put their heads together with the government, from every organization, we could make something beautiful. A little bit help of the money here, and then every individual- ! know myself, to start something like that, it is not easy. Everyone, I am quite sure, is aware, print these days is not easy. You pay through your nose. I ran from one end of the city to the other, that I could get some kind of decent printer who would not charge me millions. I did find one.

I did find people of good will who will help to develop, do something for our multiculturalism. It happened that I did meet a young lady who came to our Polish Saturday school. She is a new immigrant. She is a teacher. She is also a choreographer of dancing. She is a valuable cittzen to this country. As I know, from every different

240 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 23, 19 92 country, there are people here who bring to this country valuable things. They are ready. Only, as the minister said, put together, we will work together. There is no difference. We are one. That is where we have to continue. That is what I like, too, in this bill. We are one. If every ethnic group which has already shown, will show, help, we could make our beautiful Canada not just beautiful as a land, but as a country, peaceful and, most of all, an example to the whole world that yet we could live together.

It does not matter what background, but with the contribution we will enrich Canada, because unfortunately that is. Canada is created from the multicultural people. Everyone brings something to this society. I remember coming here. I never had seen a basket for waste in the town; I never had seen green things. There were only boulevards which were stone. Now we have benches, we have beautiful trees, we have our city landscaped. Already through 27 years, I have seen that.

I have seen the beautiful changes, so I am quite sure that everyone will agree with me that those changes, it is through us and through participation of others, people who come from other countries with the love to build this country. Someone special as our minister, she has seen that. She has seen what maybe many of us Canadians took for granted and took a negative approach to. Yet our minister, she took the right approach to it. She did recognize and she specified that we are together. There are no distinguished societies; there is no such a thing that because you are a different religion or anything else.

It is shown through her heart and through her hard work amongst the people. Yes, I did see her here and there. When there is Folklorama, she is there, and she was last night, as every one of you. It is hard work, not because she was sitting and just working hard on a hard bill and a dry bill. She walked with the people of every ethnic background. She heard the people and she met the people. She met the little one and she met the big one; she met the old one and she met the little tiny one. That is very important; it is love. It is love that is put in.

That is the way I interpret the bill, because other speakers-like yesterday everybody gave their comment. It was kind of dry, very dry. In a way the very first speaker I do respect. I do respect him very highly as a very big contributor to this country because as we know this is built not any one year. It is 125 years to take us to build something like that. There is a value in everyone's opionion. One sees and has the right to see the bill this way, the other one the other way.

I see the bill as one which will lead us to better communication, better understanding of one another, and most of all, maybe finally we will put something very special. It is coming from us to teach and to give a good example to the root of this country, to a good root of the good leaders, for the future is our children. *

(1030) It is enjoyment for me to come every Saturday and see the happy faces. Even if they are not happy, those little kids, because they say, why do I have to go and learn the language and go for religion? Why? When Johnny or somebody else watches TV, a movie or something like that, which is-on TV there are not very many good programs for them, but they do watch. Why? My explanation to the children is, that is why, because. This country has a lot to offer you.

Not growing as a Canadian because you are born or perhaps you just came from another country, but it also gives you a chance, an opportunity to learn, to develop the extra language. We all know, and it is very beautiful that we do hear English and French because that is our bilingual country. Okay. Let us keep it this way. Let us use it and not abuse it. Let us remember this, that because we do have a freedom here to learn, to develop something unique, something special, something beautiful, that a unity of our people is what makes our Canada. I would like to say yet another thing.

If it would not be this multiculturalism, I would not be able to show you this today. It is a simple magazine. In this magazine I try to show all the students how valuable it is that government helps them to learn the language. They do not want to go to that school to learn, but they do have encouragement through the government to learn the language of their parental grandparents. Because of that office, because of that minister, because of the people who are working there who told them to go, those children have a freedom of expression and, what is important, be editor to it. They feel very important.

I am quite sure, from every ethnic background, they have the same

June 23, 19 92 LEGISL ATI VE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 241 problems with the children to encourage their language. They see something that, oh, our government acknowledges my mother or my father, · where they grew up, my gran dparents , it is recognized at the university. I do benefit when I go back home, or I go because any government sends me to do something, how much value I bring to the country, how much joy I will bring to other people, because I am the one who will understand the older person who is in the hospital, thanks to my parents.

Most of all, thanks to the government, to the minister, whoever acknowledged this language and helped in this matter to build. I see a very big benefit, in every way I look at it, the benefits to grow in unity, in harmony, in peace and in love. It is up to us now to help this bill grow and continue. Put aside the negative things, look forward. It is a very young country. It is a country, it is people that could show others how to live in harmony, how to live and recognize one another, and not to see one another as strangers-as a friend, as a brother because that is what we are all about. God created us that way.

We are one. We have masters in this world. We have our ministers, we have our teachers and parents. There is somebody who is above us and controls us one way or the other. You like it or you do not, but it is that one who keeps us together and who gives that wisdom to people like you to create something and unite something. Make sure that in the schools we start from the little ones. If we will start with the little ones to encourage, love, they like to hear. The children do not know about discrimination. They play hand in hand together. There is no such thing because of the colour or something else.

It is up to us as parents to tell them when they sit in a room and the children are listening to them, but it is up to us in school and as a parent-everyone, I am quite sure, is a parent or grandparent or aunt or uncle-to put in the little hearts, the little true root that is a child, something like that bill. We walk in unity, we learn, we work together. We eat in the restaurants together, and we are different, but there is unity. We have been served by every one of us, one was going to be this or that, but we are one. ln every walk of your life you see one. You breathe the same air. You drink the same water.

It tastes the same to each one. It is us, and I think here in Manitoba it is a friendly Manitoba, sunny Manitoba. Let us keep it this way. Let us keep friendly Manitoba and let us show all Canadian governments there is no distinct society. We are one and we shall work as one. We should teach our children and we should all benefit from that. "( 1 040) If it comes to grants, like I said before, it is en courage me nt an d it also shows what governments do. It does not matter how much the finances are attacked, because we all know that there is no grant for this or that. We all have to understand.

But I do like it when the government sits together and they distribute the grants and see a little bit for this one, a little bit for that one, according to their needs. Grants are not to just fulfill and pay everything, because as Canadians we have to show our participatio n and goodwill to work and give of ourselves our own time. That is work, work which will never be able to be paid by money, the time that people give of themselves. I know myself, going to the Saturday school and start to create something for all children.

In my heart there is no such thing as Polish, Italian or maybe Russian or something, we are one. If my heart is aching in pain when I see my child has a cut in the finger, the same thing goes for every child, because I am a mother and I feel that. Here our minister puts something like that for us. She is a minister. She checked and saw, as a mother would see, us as the people together. We are her children. We are children of Canada. That is what we create. Our government is the one we look to. We ask government, we have a lot of times maybe complained because we have to complain, we are just the people.

All kinds of solutions are carried out through the government and they do try to help. To me as a Canadian citizen I appreciate that. With all my heart and soul I shall work towards the participation and encouragement to all the Canadian citizens and also all the ethnic groups, I call them all Canadians. To participate and to work, to encourage the children to build in schools that love and that beautiful communication so maybe we stand a chance not to hate, not to racism and not to distinguish societies. Because, as the minister said, we are one, and let us work toward it together.

Thank you so much for allowing me, and like I said, I shall do all my best to help. I appreciate that. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Ms. Frigo. Are there any questions?

242 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 23, 19 92 Ms. Jean Friese n (Wolseley): I want to thank you for your presentation. I know you must have waited a long time to give it-so many presenters. I was particularly interested in what you said about language education and the role of that in schools and the part that it can play in our economic development. I understand that you represent Polish education schools? Ms. Frigo: Yes, and also a new magazine that we developed toward that language anci- Mr. Chairperson: Ms.

Frigo, the one thing about committee is that until the Chair recognizes you, your mikes do not come on and then what you say is not recorded. So I will ask Ms. Friesen to continue and finish her comment and then I will ask you to speak. Ms. Frigo: Sorry, Mr. Chairperson, you will have to forgive me, I am just a plain-okay, I will behave. Mr.Chalrperson: Thank you, no problem at all, but I just want to make sure that we record your comments for posterity. Ms. Frigo: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Ms.

Friesen: I know you have been standing a long time, but actually while you were here I wanted to have some of your thoughts on what we should be doing for Polish language in the universities and colleges of Manitoba. You mentioned, for example, in your speech, you said at one time that the children will be proud to have their language recognized at the universities. As far as I know, we do not have a very extensive language program in Polish, if at all. I wondered what thoughts you had on that, what we should be doing about it? Ms. Frigo: What I think about it, I know this is not just the Polish.

I am refe rring here to others, like Ukrainian, Hebrew and German, Italian, to all. Some of us are stronger, some not. Because, like I said, a Polish community just now, recently started to flourish after the immigrants came here. There was a period of time, it was lacking, even in schools, students in school. But I do see, there is the problem. My daughter went to university for the Polish language. I also know the Ukrainian languages are acknowledged very strongly, also the German language. That is what I mean.

I mean, what would be the help, what is the purpose even of this, to encourage in those Saturday schools or even we do have in some divisions already a day school, one hour or so to introduce the language of -well, it does not matter if it is going to be Polish or German or other. See, that is what I intend, and to work toward that goal to encourage those children. With the help of the minister, I see that, I see that very much so, to work in future with all teachers.

I do see that, that we will flourish, and that we will have in universities because if we work together toward that goal and let the children see the value and what the value is. Because, right now in here, many of us know other languages. We do not just know English, we know French or we know German or we know others.

This is a good benefit for the Canadian government, because the child will prosper with the language and also will take education as a doctor, an explorer or an historian, or in any walk of life, that language will come in handy one way or another because he or she might have the opportunity to go to Europe or make contact with others. That is very important. If you know language, language is bringing the thing together. If you do not know languages-! experienced that-it is a barrier. Even right now, I might find it hard to express myself, but I hope you do understand what I mean. You know, language is important.

A language in government, any walks of government, is very important. Ms. Friesen: We absolutely agree on the importance of raising multilingual children in Manitoba. It is one of the strengths and the great opportunities that Man itoba has. We absolutely agree on the econom ic im portance of that for Manitoba. It is one of the strengths that we could have.

What I am concerned about in listening to you, and talking, and hearing all of the good work that you are doing in the Saturday schools, and all language groups are doing, and the work that is done in elementary school in the five heritage languages that we have, for example, in Winnipeg No. 1 , good work, very important. Junior high school, what happens? We come down to German and French, and sometimes Spanish. Some children in Manitoba learn those languages for, perhaps, one year. I think it is something like 0.5 percent of Manitoba children beyond elementary school actually take another

June 23, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 243 language. So that concerns me, and I wanted to have your reflections on that, perhaps, as someone who is concerned about our econom y, multilingualism, and our educational system. Then the other question/issue you raised was, what are we able to build on our universities? It is somewhat broader, you are right. We do ha ve Ukrainian; we have German; we have French. We do not have very much Italian; in fact, I do not think we have ltali;:m at all at the moment. We have a little bit of Polish. We used to have Dutch; we do not have that anymore.

So all of the good work and all of your ideals, which I share, I see as being cut off at some point in Manitoba. I am looking for help as to what kind of policies we should be developing in that area. Ms. Frigo: It is a very good question. Yes, I meet that. I meet that in our school. But also, I meet something very special. To our encouragement, I was told by parents that some children would like to have Grade 10. It is, maybe, two or three student� Ms. Friesen: It is a start. Ms. Frigo: -but it is worth it. It is worth it, very much so, for me, as a representative of the school , to hire and have that teacher.

It is not easy, yes, indeed, because if you have perhaps three students of Grade 1 0 and maybe six of Grade 9-this is up to the teachers. They do work their own way how to accommodate and how the program wou ld work. Wha t is in our school-basically Grade 1 perhaps. Kindergarten is separate. It is a preparation for Grade 1 ; that is different. Grade 1 is very important; this is the base to the learning, and it has to be introduced in a really tough and proper way. But there are grades, in older grades, that we-that is the way we work out. We are sort of like together.

A long time ago, I remember we had a clas�nd I am quite sure it was it was here in Canada-4hat was in one room and we had two grades in it. That is the way we do work. Because of a lack of students, yes, indeed. That is something very strange, but it is true, and we go through that. There are not enough students. * (1 050) But what it is, we have to encourage from the beginning. That is what is important. The root of everythi ng-root of the fa mily, root of their languages, root of the Canadian citizen, of every one-is the child.

That is why it is important for every person from an ethnic group to continue working and inspiring the children to learn the language and be an active participant in schools, and then that would bring a student to university. It will bring the value for the government, for us, for all Canadians. That is why I have been working on it, and the good Lord had to send someone who was smart, smarter than I am, and with a beautiful heart who was a teacher who is an editor of that magazine. The purpose of that is to encourage the child to be an editor. Let us put it this way.

All of us know our children are reading a magazine. Every magazine is done by grownups. Let it be comics, it is done by grownups. Let it be anythi ng, it is done by grownups. But we did forget about a valuable person who will become a grownup is a child. Many of you who are teachers or have more involvement with teachers and your children will know. If your child brings you an essay, because teacher said we have to write an essay on this and this subject, and you do take the time to read, because the child will say, mama, look it is beautiful, my teacher said that I have done a beautiful job.

The same thing that is in this school or that school, but it is also in every ethnic school. The teachers gives the child an essay to write, and the child has to write in that language. What do we do? What the purpose of that is that the child's essay will be put in and the child will have the opportunity and the chance to read and see their name, see their importance, and most of all, when they are going to say, gee, I wrote this in German. I have done that. Why did I do that? Because my parents encouraged, and government approved help.

I went to that Saturday school, and I did write in German, and it is here and everybody else could share. Do not tell me that we do not have geniuses in our children. They are very special, and they do know their feelings, and their feelings are very special. That is very important because that is carried on and will make a grownup person become a good parent, a good politician, a good teacher, and makes everything that is the best. A good citizen makes a good person. That is why I say now is the time, with this bill that was introduced to us, to work together and do give encouragement.

I know that a lot where we have

244 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 23, 19 92 now in those parts, like you said, the high schools in future would not be that. It takes from the little one, from the root, to grow a big tree, does it not? The same thing here. It is up to us to help and to encourage. I see the encour agemen t from the min ister. I see the encouragement from all Canadian governments. In 27 years I see very big progress, and I am proud, very proud. I will be much prouder yet that all of us will work together that way. Thank you so much. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your presentation, Ms. Frigo.

The next person we will call is Mike Maendel. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Her itage and Citizenship): Mr. Chairperson, just while Mr. Maendel is coming up, I last night thanked in advance all of the presenters for their very valuable presentations. We heard many different sides of many different issues last evening, so rather than taking too much time, I would just like to, at the outset, after Ms. Frigo and before Mr. Maendal, say to all the presenters, thank you for your valuable input. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Mr. Maendel, would you have a presentation that could be distributed? Mr.

Mike Maendel (H ut terl an Education Committee): No, I am sorry, I do not. Mr. Chairperson: Would you proceed, please. Mr. Maendel: I think as a representative of the Hutterian communities, it is in place that I clear myself a bit as per who the Hutterians are. I do not know if I am going out of line by doing this. It is not too common that the Hutterians have taken a position of getting involved in many, many cases in debates or discussions on committees referring to, when it comes to, government policies or what have you, but I represent what we call the Hutterian Education Committee.

I am the president of that committee. I represent all the Hutterite communities in Manitoba. We have 84 colonies, and I also, through my committee, represent all the colonies in South Dakota and Minnesota, a total of 13 0 communities, as per the heritage language. We feel very strongly about our heritage, and I think that is what multiculturalism means to us. I am not only here to speak on myself and my own ideas, I represent the Hutterian Brethren Church if you were to say it.

Like I said bef ore, not too often have Hutterites come and spoken on issues like this, but today I think it is important enough that what multiculturalism means to us is the Hutterites have something to share with other people. I think we can all learn from each other. As having been a member of the multicultural movement in Manitoba in MAPAL, which I had different positions, I was the vice-president, I did not want to become president. I have been on MIC for a number of years as a representative on this committee.

If I may, I think I have a few points, if I could quote on what the minister brought out on the act. I do not know, Mr. Chairperson. If I speak out of context please be free to stop me. I am not that educated. I think what we are talking here is I want to speak from my heart. The Hutterites are very strong on education. We take our English language very seriously too. Our children go to school from 9 a.m. to 3:30 p.m. They take the regular curriculum as what the government has put out, but we also teach, and I have been a teacher for the last 25 years, as a German school teacher.

We teach before 9 a.m. and afte r 4 p.m., so our kids generally for eight months of the year are in class from eight in the morning until five at night. Education has never been a strong point with the communities. It was always a feeling of saying, look, we have been doing all right, we have made our living. We have always had an attitude of maybe even isolation, but I think that is history now. I represent a committee and I am an educator. I am pushing through my committee to get more and mo re of my children into the mains tream of education.

What we have in mind, we have our English that we teach in the community is taught by mostly outside teachers, if I many call them that. I am the insider, you people are the outsider, just to clear things up. But we have a movement now where we have a number of our students taking their 1 0, 11 and 12 and university. At this point in Manitoba we have four of our own teachers, and some of them are girls. It has always been an attitude that not even girls should be in school, but that is history too, but we want that.

In South Dakota today we have 18 of our young people taking their teacher's training and having positions in our communities. * (1 1 00) If I could take a moment and say how important education is to us, both English and German, both

June 23, 19 92 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 245 English and German. The English-1 am Hutterian at heart. That distinguishes me from anybody else's religion. I am German. That distinguishes me of my origin from not being Ukrainian or not being Polish, but I am a Canadian. I was born here so I am a Hutterian-German-Canadian. I am proud to be a Canadian. I want to be a Canadian. I want to talk the language of the land which we are really pushing forward to educate our children. 1 think that the advancement in technology in this world today-and if I am teaching children, I am looking into the future .

That is a contribution that I will be giving to the future of Hutterian children. I need a better education. It is as simple as that. So my program is, through my committee, we want to place more and more of our own people in the line of education, be it teachers or nur ses or agronomists or mechanics, or for this matter the big issue, the ozone, to find out what is going on with Freon or refrigeration air conditioning. Just off the cuff, I bought a vehicle yesterday and there is not a person in my commun ity who can fix that vehicle. I have to take it to an authorized shop somewhere. Well, we fixed that.

We took nine of our people who are mechanics, sent them to Red River Commun ity College for that course, they came home, and from here on with a diploma, they can work on apprenticeship and spread out that way. That is fine, but it is only a quick fix thing. We need to have a higher standard of education right through the system. If I may come back then to the point with this in mind that what I feel I need to comment on, on this act here, is the importance of language.

The minister mentioned that, if I may quote Madam Minister: There should be clear recognition of the importance and encouraging of the use of heritage languages. I do not understand that. Both provincial and feder ally all it took was a stroke of a pen. I will quote the federal first. I am not a politician. My principles will not allow me to run for public office. I think if I was not a Hutterite I would take a shot at it because I think I could do some work there. But as far as financial support is concerned in the multicultural area, that is a dead item. I am sorry if I overquote myself.

The funds are not there. The CEP program went down. There is no more federal support. I know of restraints. We know that there are not more dollars, and it seems that the provincial government also could not meet the support where the linguistic program had to be taken out of circulation. There was no support. It was generally understood, from what I always heard of the communities represented and then by our government off icials, that if a culture, an ethnicity, is strong enough or important enough for you, you are going to have to reach into your own pocketbook and do a little more of it.

There is not enough money to go around in this government. There is not. I realize that, but I have a problem with some of the areas in the act that we have in front of us. Knowing of MIC, knowing of the cultural situation, what we have in place today-and I hope, Mr. Chairperson, if I am wrong I may misquote. I am not a government off icial, so I will say it the way I think it is. If we have MIC the way we had it before , MIC was an organization made by legislation. It was there because the government wanted it, and it was not a funding operation in itself. Yes, there were dollars.

There were dollars that were supposed to be brought out where the committee at the time of MIC had those few dollars and financed some projects. In fact, the Hutterian Education Committee did one project, too. We had a project where our history book was translated, and out of a project that cost us in the neighbourhood of $400,000 to translate an original book that comes out of 1 ,400, 1 ,500-the original handwritten book. We had to get someone first of all to type it and then to write it and then to translate it, and then to edit and publish it. That book is in place.

For a project like that we received $25,000 a few years ago from MIC. Now, I thought that was great. We financed most of it. Other communities had all kinds of programs to be funded. There was a help. It was not something that was to be paid for. It was just a motivator. It is kind of like giving a kid a little bit of something and make him happy as far as I was concerned. The way things are now, either I do not understand it or I would have to be told what it really means.

We have what we call the Grants Advisory Committee today, which advises the minister, if I am right, Madam Minister, on what should be done with the few dollars that she has left to spend. Then we have what we call the secretariat. Really what the point for the secretariat is, either I am not clear on it, but it is a group that is responsible to look over what the Grants Advisory Committee is

246 LEGISL ATI VE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 23, 19 92 doing. Then we have the Access Off ice. I guess what it means to me, the Access Off ice, it means, if I read the minister right, Madam Minister wanted a place where anybody that had an issue or a concern-here, that is where you can bring it. I have a problem with that. I think that as a Hutterite I do not want anybody to represent me. I do not think that I want-not that I do not think anybody could or maybe even should, but that is the way we are. We want to do our thing ourselves.

If these comm ittees are appointed by the government, which has 18 members if I am right, to be appointed to this committee, my committee was left out or my community. There are 84 colonies in Manitoba with a mean average of 1 00 people and not one of the Hutterites got appointed, and this is not an accusation. I am just trying to illustrate something here. Now, the Hutterites want to speak for themselves. We have come to this point. We have decided that we are not only going to speak for ourselves when it comes to chickens and pigs, we are going to get involved in municipalities.

We have one of our own members as a councillor now. That was a no-no up to a few years ago. I am sorry, but if my ward where those 1 0 colonies are situated does not get their roads gravelled, we just simply that is nice. Votes are clout. That is what politics is. You have five votes and it takes four to put them in, you have got your man in. That is what happens. The other issue is with the school divisions. The time is past when we can go to the government and go to our bureaucrats and go to our board members; there is so much talk and nothing really happens.

So from here on we are going to have our own people run for our own areas, and we will be sitting on these boards. I said before my principle does not allow me to come and sit and take public office . Well, that is not public office . You know, we colour it a little bit different. That is all it is. So here we are. I am supposed to be represented by a system or a setup or a committee in a multicultural system and I am not. I have a problem with that.

I think, and I am not going to be a very long speaker although they tell me all the time that I am long-winded, they have to cut the mike off and all this, but that is not here. This is serious. • (1 11 0) Mr. Chairperson: The only thing I am going to ask you to do, Mr. Maendel, is stick your comments close to the bill and refe rence to the bill. Mr. Maendel: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. We are going to do that from now on. I am pretty much through now. I think that this bill is not ready to be passed.

I think Bill 98 should wait, and it should wait until the time when the study that the minister proposes for MIC, when the person who does that study, when his report is in. The government then can make or even call another session and say, hey, is this right? Is this man's report going to mean MIC is finished, or MIC has clout, or should be, or should not? If I disagree with the way the system has been proposed by the minister, I cannot see that a report-and our minister says that she will report on the findings at the next biannual assembly in 199 3.

We may as well just simply say-1 take the attitude that MIC will be history by then. I do not know either. I do not understand what it says. But really, the legislation he re-I think MIC did a good job. I have one more problem and I know the minister has not got more dollars than there always were, maybe less. She has to cut it into many more pieces than maybe before. What we have today , if we have a Grants Advisory Committee, there is a staff there and there is an office and that costs money. Then we have the secretariat. Somebody has got to run that offi ce. That costs money, too.

That has got to come out of that kitty there. Then we have the third one, the Access Offi ce. Somebody has got to answer that phone. That is also money. Then we have MIC, yet. I think that we do not need the three. I would prefer to have MIC because when it was set up, even if it was not all that good, we could have just simply improved MIC. Manitoba Intercultural Council to me meant represen tatives from the commu nities were represent ed. They wer e sent in by the communities, not by the government. I am afraid that it cou ld become political .

When the government has to appoint these people--if the amen dment is there or if the legislation is there, she is going to have to, or somebody will have to, appoint these people. Because of the legislation they have to do that. I do not think that the multiculturalism in this country calls for that. Multiculturalism means me and that other person, not the government. It is exactly the opposite. We should be telling the government

June 23, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 247 what they should do, not the government appointing people to tell them what they should be doing. I think it should go all the way, and if the bill goes through-! am not much of a prophet or a forecaster. I think, the way I look at it, the bill will be a letter, not quite written, sealed and delivered. I am sorry, that is the way I look at it. Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Maendel. Are there any questions of Mr. Maendel? Ms. Mariann e Ce rllll (Radisson): Mr. Chairperson, I would just like to start off by saying thank you to Mr.

Maendel for his clear presentation. Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Cerilli, I would ask you to please speak into the mike so we can hear. Ms. Cerllll: I would also like to make it clear that I appreciate the number of people who have returned today afte r waiting here so long last night. It is unfortunate, Mr. Maendel, that you were not able to hear some of the presentations last night, because there were a number of other presentations that echoed your concerns. Mr. Maendel: I understand that. Ms.

Cerllll: I want to start off by asking you about the beginning of your presentation and your concern about langua ge funding and com mitmen t to heritage language programming. I am wondering if you would like to see a strong commitment in the bill, in the policy of the government, to continue funding community-based heritage language. Do you think that that is something that you would like to see in the bill? Mr. Maendel: Mr. Chairperson, that is a very strong question.

I think that it is one of the strongest points that needs to be put into this bill, just that, just heritage language, because multiculturalism is heritage language. If you have not got a heritage language, you are not going to have a culture. I am going to deviate, Mr. Chairperson, just one moment. I was at the first multicultural confere nce, the national conference in Saskatoon representing the Hutterites there, one of two people. At that time a native stood up in closing and made a remark.

He made it this way, and we agree wholeheartedly with that: Our history verifies that when we lose our language, we lose our culture. That has happened to us. This na tive person said, sinc e we have discovered Columbus, things have not gone good for us. We have dropped our culture but we have not found Columbus's culture yet. That is important. Language is a carrier of culture and it has to be there, for us especially. The Hutterites speak German in their church services; we speak a dialect in our homes that we have carried since 15 30 out of Austria. In Tyrol, I was there last fall, people still speak that.

I say people still speak that, and they say we still do. We have been away for 400 years. This Bill 98 must include support for heritage language. That is the way it was before . I do not know in what shape it will be, for the simple reason, it just helps, like we said befo re, just to give that little boost to some of them, the smaller communities that can not seem to reach down enough and have not got enough dollars to do that. Every dollar helps. Ms. Cerllll: I was interested and concerned by some of your comments about the relationship between the secretariat and the grants advisory body.

You were saying that you felt that the secretariat was overseeing the grants advisory body, and I just wanted to clarify that. Is that what you were saying? Mr. Maendel: Yes, it is not too clear. I wish somebody would-1 mean I do not know if this is the time for it, how the structure of-where the S.S. office-which is first, the S.S. office, then the grants advisory committee or the secretariat, I do not know. I guess my point was this: I think that we should have none of them. I would put it back into MIC and let MIC do the work.

The few dollars that are there can readily be spent by the committee that we had before . Ms. Cerllll: Yes, I understand what you are saying more clearly. I think that a number of other people have expressed concern that the bill does not show clearly the relationship between all these different agencies. Is that something that you are concerned about? Mr. Maendel: Yes, it is. It was very unclear and I am not an expert, but I always thought that I could read the minister very clearly. I have been working with the multicultural system in this country, in Manitoba, federally and also provincially very strongly.

I have been a supporter of this minister. I am not going to say my political affiliations here; this is not important.

248 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA June 23, 19 92 Yes, it was not clear to me what really the functions-who came first and who oversaw what and what really the necessity of it was. Maybe, I would say this, if it was clear for u&-1 still have the point that duplication costs money. We know that, we do not want duplications. If the grants advisory committee or the secretariat then will do the work the way I think they should be doing it, and they do not, I think MIC should go down the tubes. That is fine.

We do not want duplicating because duplicating costs money and we do not want that, but I want to be sure that the system is the way I feel, the way I believe it should be done. Community has to send its representative&-that is a strong point-and that has to be in that bill. Otherwise, it will not make sense tome. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Thank you for your presentation. • (1 12 0) Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I too would like to thank the presenter, Mr. Chairperson, for putting across his views. I guess I concur with him on many of the points that he has brought forward .

One, and probably the most important one, is the whole question of MGAC, and why it is that MGAC would be in the legislation. But as you went through a number of the issues such as the so-called outreach office, the MGAC, the Multiculturalism Secretariat's office , and if you take out those three aspects from the bill, and I grant that it does not leave very much left in the bill if you take those out, it still talks in terms of the equal opportunity. There is the other side of the bill that you did not necessarily make too much reference to.

I would ask if there were amendmen ts brought forward to the bill-maybe not necessarily adding to it some of the things that you have put on the table but in terms of the deletion&-SOme other aspects that brought some concern to you, would you then support the bill, or the principle of the bill itself is something that you do not necessarily support? Mr. Maendel: I support the act. I think this country should have a multicultural act because this is a multicultural community. There are no two ways about this.

But my principle is that I feel that if the commu nity should be doing the work, then the government cannot do it. If the government cannot do it, then the government does not have the responsibility of appointing those 18 members. I think they should not. MIC was for me the right way to see it. Every community, and there are 60, 70, 80-1 do not know at this point, the longer we wait the more we have; it is due to our immigration-then I think those are the people who should send those representatives to represent MIC who then has representatives set up to go to the government and recommend to them.

I feel strongly on that point. One of the questions that I have still not cleared, where does the standing committee on the media, where does the standing comm ittee on race relations stay, where will education stay? There is really no refe rence in the bill. Either it is built in, and there is going to be in the secretariat or in the grant advisory committee people who will chair these committees, who will focus in on a certain point and not just on the whole subject of whatever the problems are out there. Those five committees that were standing committees on MIC, I do not see that in the bill.

I think there would have to be very many changes in the bill if I see it my way. I do not want to say that it has to be done, but I really wanted to add my recommendations to this, to just give this committee thought of how the Hutterites see a multiculture act. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much. I would ask that the committee members please keep their questions short and the responses as well by the presenters short. We have a lot of people who are still waiting to appear before this committee and on a number of bills, so I ask your indulgence, please, for the benefit of those who are still waiting. Mr.

Lamoureux: I would ask the presenter, in terms of the MIC and the MIC act, you made reference to the fact that you want to avoid duplication. That means even possibly if it is acknowledged that MGAC is going to be around, that we should get rid of MIC. Just to clarify that, I would suggest to you that we would want to maintain MIC even if a recommendation comes back saying that the MGAC should be in existence, and I would just like him to clarify his position on that. Mr. Maendel: Very clearly, my poin t is the government must not appoint those people, the community should. Mr.

Chairperso n: Thank you very much, Mr. Maendel, for your presentation. We will move on now to the next item, but before we do the minister

June 23, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 249 has asked that we have a five-minute break. Is that the agreement of the committee that we break for five minutes? Thank you very much. *** The Committee took recess at 11 :25 a.m . After Recess The Committee resumed at 11: 31 a. m. Mr. Chairperson: Would the comm ittee come back to order, please. The committee next calls Mr. Kyle Goomansingh. Is Mr. Goomansingh here? Mr. Goomansingh is not here. The committee next calls Mr. John Jack. Is Mr. John Jack here? Would you come forward, please? Mr. Jack, have you a presentation to distribute to the committee? Mr.

John Jack (Council of Car ibbe an Organizations of Manitoba): No, it is just- Mr. Chairperson: You do not-verbal. Mr. Jack, will you continue, please? Mr. Jack: Mr. Chairperson, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to give my input into this process. My name, as you said, is John Jack. I am representing the Cou ncil of Car ibbean Organizations of Manitoba. The council fe els that The Ma nitoba Multiculturalism Act is important and is very significant to all Manitobans. The council feels that the act is necessary.

It is necessary to ensure that there are provisions for equality, that there is provision for the understanding of the diversity and diffe rences of the various ethnocultural groups in Manitoba. The council also feels that The Manitoba Mu lticulturalism Act is extremely necessary, especially for visible minority people.

An act that is that necessary should allow time for proper input and discussion, especially from the visible minority groups. At this particular time, I would just like to touch on what I see as problems with the process. The process is that we received the act, I believe, just last week, and the committee hearing is this week, which did not giv e the com mu nities, the organizations, the proper opportunity to sit back, to look at all of the fine print within the act and to respond effect ively. So, as a result, we have some concerns about the manner in which this particular act is being rushed.

We feel that the act, actually, at this particular time, should be delayed until there is proper process for discussion. I would think that there are some extremely good aspects of the act, aspects whereby, if we were to cite page 2, we have here to "recognize and promote that the cultural diversity of Manitobans is a strength and a source of pride to Manitobans." We have, we also see that here, to "recognize and promote the right of all Manitobans ....

" But there is nothing within the act that says how the go vernment in tends to pro mo te this understanding, how the government intends to promote the right of all Manitobans. Recognizing it is fine. Everybody can recognize that we must all have equal rights, et cetera, et cetera, but how you promote, legislate, and make sure that there is equality, there are provisions for all Manitobans, that is the concern.

When you turn to page 3, where it has here to "enha nce the oppor tun ities of Manit oba's multicultural society by acting in partnership with cultur al com muni ties and by enc our aging co-operation and partnerships between cultural communities", there is really no understanding, no provision made in terms of how the government intends to make sure that these things happen. We have some concerns with omissions. There are lots of things that are left out of this act. Basically, the name, "Manitoba Intercultural Council", was not mentioned at all in this particular act.

Now we see the Manitoba Intercultural Council as represented by the people. We see that the people se lected , the com mu nities selec t the represen tatives on the Manitoba Intercultural Council. So we see the Manitoba Intercultural Council as the voice of the people that will articulate and communicate with government. That was that link. We now see that the secretariat as it appears, it "app ear s" as a secretariat that will be a represe ntative of gove rnment and not a represe ntative of the com mu nities. We have problems with that.

We have problems with that because at that particular time, there is no clear understanding in terms of the mandate of the secretariat.

250 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA June 23, 19 92 The communities right now are not able to access the secretariat. The communities, for the past six, seven years have worked closely with the Manitoba Intercultural Council. The communities, for the past six, seven years, have sent proper representatives that will bring their concerns and their views to the Manitoba Intercultural Council.

The Manitoba Intercultural Council over the past few years represented the commu nities, their concerns, be it through funding, be it through acts of racism, et ce tera, the Manitoba Intercultural Council addressed those concerns. Right now, the commu nities do not know-and I am going to underline that-do not know how to access the secretariat, and there is no provision within this act, there is no clear understanding as to how the secretariat is going to operate. There was some mention in the act that states that the minister may, if she chooses, establish a community outreach.

I cannot remember exactly where I saw that. More or less, that will help to give some understanding of the role and the purpose of the secretariat. So the mere fact that the Manitoba Intercultural Council was omitted from the act clearly indicates the demise of the Manitoba Intercultural Council. We feel it is important that the Manitoba Intercultural Council remain in place. We feel it is important that there is some linkage with the Manitoba Intercultural Council and MGAC and the secretariat.

We feel that is important because as soon as you try to weaken the Manitoba Intercultural Council, you are more or less cutting the links of the communities with government. That is what the Manitoba Intercultural Council was seen and viewed to be by all of the ethnocultural groups. Once we get rid of the Manitoba Intercultural Council, as we see it, there is no more access to government where people can clearly articulate their concerns.

That forum will no longer be there. .. (1 14 0) That forum where the council met twice a year, some times three times a year, whereby the communities can clearly articulate their concerns, where the executive, the board met on a monthly basis, where concerns can actually be channeled, whereby an office was set up with a secretary, with an executive director, researcher, et cetera, whereby the communities have already learned how to access the Manitoba Intercultural Council The secretariat, to tell you the honest truth, I do not even know where the office is.

I sought the question from quite a number of people and they do not know. They really do not know about the function of that Multiculturalism Secretariat. There is no indication in the act that says that the personnel within the secretariat's department should reflect the multicultural make-up of the commun ities. I think it is important that, when we have a secretariat or grants advisory body, et cetera, we ensure that those personnel working within those offi ces reflect. That means there should be a good cross

section of the multicultural make-up of Manitoba. There is no commitment within the act for funding to commun ities. If I were to take you to that page which says that the minister may-it uses the term "may" -allocate X number of dollars towards the funding of ethnocultural groups. It did not say that the minister would and defi nitely will. I would say, if the minister or her department feels that the ethnocultural group should no longer be funded, as was hinted a year or so ago, then that will be automatically wiped ou1.

There is no provision here to make sure that funding will be maintained, and that is some concern. It should be clearly spelled out, the commitment. You have to pu1 money where your mouth lies, the commitment to maintain the cultural make-up to make sure that there is equality, et cetera, for all organizations. So, as I me ntioned here, there are three concerns. In summing up, I will be very brief here, the concerns are that there are some excellent aspects to this act.

This act needs time to be revised and for further input, so that we can have something that will be lasting, regardless of what governmen t is in power, that we make sure there is

an act that will more or less meet the needs of all ethnocultural groups, that will ensure that there is equality, acceptance of diversity, et cetera. Therefore, we feel it is important, imperative, that this act in this particular state be delayed so that there can be more input and additions so that we ensure that this is a proper act. I do not want us to rush this through now and accept this, and then we say, well, let us make some amendmen ts three years down the road, let us make some additions five years down the road. Now is the time that we do it right. We need time, so right now I am begging for time.

June 23, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 251 The other concern here is that the Manitoba Intercultural Council needs to be included in this particular act, because we fe el, the whole community feels, that the Manitoba Intercultural Council represents the people, and the communities select and elect their representatives to the Council so that they can be properly represented. We also feel it is important that an inclusion in this act have a commitment to funding, a commitment to maintain funding to the ethnocultural communities.

Funding for heritage language, funding for heritage support is important, and, Mr. Chairperson, at this particular point I will conclude and entertain questions. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Jack, for your presentation. Are there any questions of Mr. Jack? Ms. Cerl lll: Thank you, Mr. Jack, for you r presentation.

Late, late last night there was a comment made that it is somewhat ironic and even hypocritical that a bill that talks about equal access and equal participation is brought in so late in the session, and we are dealing with it late at night and people are not offered the opportunity to really review it and participate in a way that they should.

I am also remembering that this point was made even with respect to the bill and that the bill itself is not allowing for equal opportunity to participate in all of these organizations and in what the bill is supposed to be about because there is a limitation for the kind of commun ication that there should be. People mention that there is no reporting mechanism other than an annual report, that the communication between the various organizations is very unclear.

I am wondering if you can ma ke an y recommendations for us that would deal with that aspect of what the government is creating, if you have some su gges tions about the kind of importance in ensuring that the gove rnment agencies that are created are truly reflective and there is going to be some assurance that they are going to be in close contact with the community. Mr. Jack: Mr.

Chairperson, my recommendation will be, merge MGAC with the Manitoba Intercultural Council, as No. 1, so that the Manitoba Intercultural Council representatives which were chosen by the various ethnocultural groups be that body that more or less deals with the funding applications. Put more funding into the Manitoba Intercultural Council so that it maintains its linkage with government and with the communities-that is the link.

We need the link so that the people, the communities, can have a forum whereby they can articulate their concerns clearly, without any fear of harassment or anything of that sort in a forum that they feel comfortable being with the Manitoba Intercultural Council. So then their concerns can clearly be articulated to government. Then I still see the im portance of the Multiculturalism Secretariat, but then we have to clearly show the linkage between the secretariat and the Manitoba Intercultural Council. So my recomme ndation is, get rid of MGAC.

Put the funding back into the Manitoba Intercultural Council whereby that truly represents the communities. Maintain the Multiculturalism Secretariat and clearly define the linkage between those groups. Ms. Cerllll: One of the other points that you were making at the beginning talked about how there is nothing specific about how equal access to opportunity, respect for different cultures, is going to be created. Would that

section be improved by including commitments to things like employment equity programs, funding for heritage languages? Is that the kind of- Mr. Jack: Yes. Sorry, Mr. Chairperson. I must go through you and recognize that you have given me the mik e. I apologize for jumping in to answer the question. That is the sort of thing that we are looking for that is clearly defined within the act, how government is going to support and make sure and promote, how that is going to be done, either through funding, through supportive other means, et cetera. • (1 15 0) Ms.

Cerllll: I am wondering if the group that you are representing has considered any sections that they would like to see deleted from the act, if that is one way that you looked at the bill, especially because you mentioned that there were some roles for the Intercultural Council that were being taken over by the sec reta riat. Have you given some consideration to deletions and can you make any recommendations? Mr.Jack: What the council needs istime,and once we have the time we will be able to come up with proper recommendations.

We recognize that there is the need for the Multiculturalism Secretariat, but we also recognize there is the need for the Manitoba Intercultural

252 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 23, 19 92 Council. But we do not see the real need, we see it as a duplication, for having the Manitoba Grants Advisory Council. Duplication, we see that, if it can be linked to the Manitoba Intercultural Council. Ms. Ce rllll: If we were to recommend that the bill be delayed, you do not think that there would be a huge outcry in the community that we are blocking the way to improved multiculturalism and improved multicultural relations.

You would think that there is enough concern that this is being rushed through and that there are improvements that need to be made that we could wait a little while? Mr. Jack: If the bill is delayed, certainly there might be an outcry that maybe one or two groups may be trying to block what we see as very important, very necessary for the multicultural act, but it is important that when

an act gets in place that the act truly indicates and determines and will be able to be that law. It is like the Bible that tells you exactly how government will give support to the multicultural com mun ities, and we want to make sure that everything in the act is properly defined. It is important that all communities have the opportunity to really study the act properly and give recommendations for changes for omissions for inclusions. So I would say that to delay the act might be doing the government good in terms of listening to the people in terms of making sure that there is proper input.

I feel that the talk of the multicultural act was for the past three or four years now. I think that it is presented now, so why not give us another two or three months? Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Jack. Mr. Lamoureux: I too thank Mr. Jack for his presentation, but I have a couple of questions. One is, Mr. Jack, you are really recommending that we do not pass Bill 98 at this time.

If we were to follow up on that recommendation, in all likelihood, realistically, the soonest we could anticipate another act would be around this time next year, because even if we were to take a recess and come back in fall, chances are the government would prorogue the session and introduce a new session at which time the bill would have to be, once agai n, reintroduced and debated and so forth. So it is a question in terms of procedure. I look at it and I see, as you do, that there are major flaws in this piece of legislation.

You pointed out the two major flaws that I talked about in my opening remarks on this particular bill, the exclusion of MIC, which is completely unacceptable, and it is also completely unacceptable that MGAC be included in this piece of legislation. But having said that-and I would imagine that you would agree in it but I do not want to put any words in your mouth, is that we recognize the importance of passing the act primarily, at least from my point of view, because of what other clauses are in there, in particular Clause 2.

It was mentioned last night that one of the things when we bring in a multicultural act, it is by far a perfect piece of legislation that over time, no doubt, we will be seeing changes brought to the act.

My question to you quite simply is that if we were to see MGAC taken out through an amendment and pos sibly so me in clusio n of the Man itoba Intercultural Council, at the very least in terms as a refe rence, would you then be in fa vour of seeing this piece of legislation passing, and acknowledging that it is a starting point so that some time in the future no doubt, hopefu lly in the near future, we will see amendm ents that will address some of the issues that you have brought forwa rd? Mr. Jack: Mr. Lamoureux, you have posed a very interesting question to me.

I was not aware that if this act does not pass this, it will not be passed until this time next year. I am not too familiar with the entire process of acts and readings and committees, etcetera. Point of Order Ms. Ce rllll: On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson, or maybe just a point of information, is that we are planning to resume the session in the fall. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member does not have a point of order. I would ask Mr. Jack to continue his comments, please. *** Mr. Jack: So then, the point that you have made, Mr.

Lamoureux, is that if, through the discussions and presentations and from the various individuals or co mmuni ties la st nigh t and today, the government will see in its wisdom the need to make changes, that means to include the Manitoba Intercultural Council as the body that will clearly represent the ethnocultural groups, and that it will see that the Manitoba Grants Advisory Council become part of it.

June 23, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 253 Now I am not saying to get rid of the personnel within the Manitoba Grants Advisory Council. They are doing an excellent job, but I am saying that those personnel could then go and work in the Manitoba Intercultural Council. There is no problem there, but let that body be "the" body responsible for funding, and let that body be the body that becomes the link between the communities and government. If that can be included in the act today, tomorrow or the next day, then that is acceptable. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Jack.

That concludes the list of presenters that we had put forward . What is the will of the committee? There are some who were not here this morning when we started. Is it the wish of the committee that I ask whether there are any other presenters who want to present? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Chairperson: Are there any other presenters who would wish to present? There are two back there. I would ask then Mr. Pandey to come forward, if Mr. Pandey is here. Mr. Pandey, have you a presentation to distribute to the committee? Mr. Gopal Pandey, Sr. (Private Citizen): Yes, I have already given it.

Mr.Chalrperson: Thank you. Would you proceed then, please? Mr. Pandey: Mr. Chairperson, the bill which we are discussing is one of the very important in the history of, not only in the history of Canada, but of all the ruling principles of the whole world. It has a global significance also. I know. I am in communication with some people in the States, and they are looking forward to the success of multiculturalism, which has been taking place in Canada. So it is not only Canada, it is all the other people who are interested in that.

The success or fai lure of this multiculturalism rests upon us, upon our co-operation, upon our understanding and acknowledgement of this principle as of our faith not only as our duty. * (1 200) Before I start, I will have to apologize to the Minister of Culture, Bonnie Mitchelson, here, who has been so kind to us in the past. There is something which is against the ministry, in the name of the minister, so she should not take it as it is, because all the rules and acts which are made, they are not made for one person for one time. It is a continuous, perpetual process which is to be taken into consideration.

I hope that I should have a Minister of Culture like Bonnie Mitchelson forever and ever. The declaration of the policy of multiculturalism by Canada is unique in the history of governments over the world. Due to the increasing fac ilities in the means of communication and transportation, radical changes in population are taking place in other countries also. They are fac ing the similar problems as we are fac ing here about the settlement of multicultural population in their own countries. They are keeping a close eye on the system of the government.

If it is proved to be a successful system, the other system of capitalism and socialism may get overhauled by this multicultural system. This multicultural system, what I find is the refined form of democracy. The democracy is itself only representation. You will give a vote and thereafter you are away . But this mu lticulturalism is a commitment of involvement into the community. So it is a far better process which I feel, and it is our responsibility to prove it a success.

Canada, being a pioneer of the doctrines of democratic multiculturalism has moral responsibility to make it a success and so as with the people who are here. It will have to look at every aspect, every corner to ensure that there is no weakness or loopholes and no cracks. It is always better to start later, rather than to make mistakes and thereafter correct it. I found two of the shortcomings in the present bill which need serious consider ation of all you who believe in multiculturalism.

The concept of Canada as a single society un ited by shared laws, values, aspirations and responsibilities and freedom of opportunities, these are the main things, always, on which this bill is based. The government is made for your subjects. The responsibility of government is to look after the welfare of the communities of his own subjects. No government can successfu lly run without the co-operation of his subjects, of the people who are under them. We have got the inspiration, the ideologies that is, of a single society in Canada.

The master key of all this single system of Canada is involving people at various stages. Involvement

254 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 23, 19 92 of people at different stages is very, very necessary to ensure the success of this bill. Everybody of us here as well as living in Canada must feel a sense of partnership, a sense of belonging, a sense of sharing responsibilities. As a partner, nobody will invest his money if he feels that his money is at stake. As a volunteer, nobody will like to volunteer who is not being recognized and who is being criticized. So we will have to give, as a government, proper recognition of all those communities which are involved in that.

At every stage, the opportunities should be given and the su pport should be given to shar e responsibilities. When I say support to be given, there are a lot of commu nities in this country who are not as versatile, who are not at the level who can come out and co-operate in the system. According to my personal experience, I can dare say that 40 percent of people will be scared to come, and just have their picnics and have their functions in mainstream society. I am speaking here, do not feel that all people in my community are like that. So we will have to find out where our weaknesses are.

We have got weaknesses and we cannot afford to let the weakness remain. All the communities which are here, they make a part of Canada, as hands and feet and eyes and nose make a part of our body. We cannot afford to allow one of our limbs to get paralyzed. We cannot leave one segment of our society to be dormant. We will have to make each and every effort to get everybody involved for the success of the country. When we came here from diff erent countries, we came with the expression that we will contribute something to Canada. We may have language problems. There is no doubt about it.

We have other cultural problems. There is no doubt about it. But we have got a lot of experience, a lot of expertise, a lot of backgrounds, you know, to contribute to Canada. There was a workshop a couple of months before where I had a chance to be with the Honourable Bonnie Mitchelson and there was the question, what we think of Canada, how Canada will aspire to become a multicultural country. It was presented like a bouquet. You know, in one part different flowers are arranged together, and it was the most beautiful presentation of Canada.

But it appeared to me that there is something wrong with that, something not really correct. I came to the concept of a ring, because if you see the flower, it fades away and we have to throw it out. Our linkage, our affi liation, our commitment should be permanent. So as in the ring you see different kinds of jewels and the different kinds of jewels, the different cultures, join together and will make it a permanent Canada, a valuable Canada. There is only one point-not much-1 will not take that much time because people are getting tired.

As I was saying, the co-operation of the people, of the public, is very necessary for any of the plan implementation, especially when people come from different countries, different cultures, various backgrounds. There are a lot of diversities in our own country. We will have to appreciate everyone, and for their appreciation we will have to learn, we will have to be ready to accept that and to know about that. How can we know, how can we understand unless we get together? Unless we create an opportunity to make them come out and mix with our society, we cannot know about them.

So that is a question of creating a conf idence in diverse commun ities and making opportunities for them to come out. .. (1 210 ) Take an example. There is a lot of food on this table and people are sitting, but there is a small child. He needs food, he wants to go to it, but he cannot reach it. Should I leave it like that? You can say, yes, all the opportunities are open for all. It is open for all; everybody can come and serve himself. But, no, you cannot say it like that. We will have to help the child until he becomes self-sufficient and can help himself.

So there are communities in our country who are at this stage of the child, and we will have to take proper care of them-not just them-help them and encourage them to come out and get integrated into the society. What I find here, there are only two organizations, so far as I know, in the country who are .vorking along the line of multiculturalism, just bringing different cultures together to give them more awareness about each other.

On the city of Winnipeg level it is Ethos Multicultural Seniors Coalition of Manitoba, which is bringing seniors from different multicultural groups together on one platform and arranging their own different activities like that. There is other, the Manitoba Intercultural Council here, that has got its standing of seven or eight years already, I do not know exactly. It has a network of 700 or BOO multicultural communities

June 23, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 255 throughout the whole of Manitoba. These are the only two organizations who are working on these lines. Now what I find in this bill is that all powers have been vested in the minister and Access Office , resource office and MGAC; and as such, there is a big question mark. Since the Manitoba Intercultural Council has been taken out of consideration which is here for the last seven or eight years, and I think, while considering the contents of the bill, it must have been before the people.

Why it was taken out-1 know there need to be reforms; there need to be changes with that change of the new concept of the community, but it was just taken out all together, which makes people think, what is the intention? The representative of multiculturalism has been taken out of the multicultural bill. Who is going to represent to that? Does the government intend to run the whole show in its own way without input of multicultural communities under the name of multiculturalism? They are using multiculturalism in our bills.

Is the old wine being put in new bottles under the label of multiculturalism when there is no representation of multiculturalism? How can we can call it a multicultural setup if all the powers are vested in the secretariat, then in MGAC, in the minister? How can we say that it is multicultural? There should be multicultural representation at each and every step, every place. Only then we can say that, and only then do people have confidence in the setup. Otherwise it is not possible at all that our aspirations, what we feel of one single Canada, it cannot be realized in any way.

We will have to face utter failure. So- Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Pandey, might I interrupt for a few seconds. We have one more presentation, and I want to at least wind up this portion of the hearings on this bill by at least 12 :30 p.m. So with your indulgence, I would ask you, if you could speed it up that we could hear the other person as well before 12 :30 p.m . Mr. Pandey: I will take three minutes only. So far, we are on the concept of the secretariat.

The secretariat has been assigned, beside other duties there, so many duties, under subsection 3 and 4 to work with the community at large and to foster the enhan ced relationship betwe en various communities and asks them to achieve shared goals with participation by members of all cultural communities in all aspects of Manitoba society.

I think that persons responsible to table the bill have no, or very little idea, of the amount of work involved in removing the barriers in communities itself, as well as integrating one community with another community in spite of all the differences in culture, language, ideologies, and make them at home to come at one platform to achieve the objective of a single Canada. This work has its own implications, has it own technicalities and barriers of its own. The workload under the secretariat's department needs to be reassessed to ensur e the efficiency of the department.

It is my assessment, if the involvement and representation of multicultural communities is omitted in this bill, then the purpose of the concept of multiculturalism is defeated . Thank you very much. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Pandey. Are there any questions of Mr. Pandey. If not, thank you very much for your presentation. I would call then Mr. Prag Naik. Mr. Prag Naik, would you come forwar d , please . You r presentation is being distributed at the moment. I would ask you to proceed with your submission. Mr. Prag Nalk (Hindu Seniors Club of Manitoba Inc.): Mr.

Chairper son, ho nou rable mi nis ter respon sible, memb ers of the com mittee, I appreciate this opportunity to appear before the committee to represent the Hindu Seniors Club of Manitoba, which has evolved as a multicultural organization over the last few years. Mr. Chairperson, in the short time that we had available to us, we have examined certain relevant aspects of Bill 98, and we would like to make the following observations. The pu rpose of this submission is to help the passage of a meaningful multiculturalism act which is of real practical value to the multicultural community.

In a multicultural sense, a measure of practical value is hard to define and enunciate for the simple reason that we have little to go by in terms of test results of specific actions except for com munity effort in areas of human services and cultural exchange which, of necessity, has been minimal. It is a matter of pride and joy and also perhaps a testimony to the fact of our intrinsic richness that, as a people, we are taking the first steps at the top level

256 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA June 23, 19 92 of government towards embracing the principle of multiculturalism in our social make-up. The question is how to make the proposed statutory measure an effective instrument fo r the promotion of social justice, equity and unity. Does it provide for an adequate mechanism with a potential for progressive exploitation of the unique advantages of the pluralistic Canadian society in harnessing the inherent strength man ifest in a dazzling array of skills, talent and values? * (1 220) The Multiculturalism Grants Advisory Council:

Section 8(1 ) and (2) of Bill 98 refer to the establishment of the Grants Advisory Counc il and elaborating on the purpose of the council,

Section 8(2) states, "The council shall, in accordance with any directions that may be provided by the minister, review and make recommendations to the minister on applications for grants under this Act." Minister to advisory council to min ister, that set-up resembles a closed circuit arrangement with little or no public access, let alone interference. Also, the composition of the council should reflect a democratic and populist approach vis-a-vis a unilateral and seemingly arbitrary planning.

If the function of the advisory council is reduced to that of a disbursing agency-and there is a good chance that it will, given its terms of reference-its purported role as an advisory body becomes a veritable smoke screen. We therefore consider it imperative that the parallel bodies such as the multicultural planning council repre sent ative of the multicultural community be established to co-ordinate, work and collaborate with the advisory council. I would like to clarify this point a little further. I had in mind the Manitoba Intercultural Council when I talked about the multicultural planning council.

If the Manitoba Intercultural Council is not living up to its expectations, it should be interested in the planning role, and it could then be merged with the rest of the multicultural administration. In part, Bill98 refers to the diversity of Manitobans in regards to culture, religion and racial background as a fu ndamental characteristic of Man itoban society which benefits all Manitobans economically, socially and culturally.

In the context of this statement, one cannot help recalling criticism of government policy in areas like affi rma tive action and equal em ployment opportunity, some jus tified and some grossly cynical. The Af firma tive Action Program, as administered, was alleged to be perpetuating the evil of division and discrimination rather than serving the cause of equity and justice in employment.

In our endeavour to create a new social order cha racterized by mu tual res pect, harmony, understanding and, above all, concerted effort for progress and prosperity, we should be adopting measures that enable us to ward off such criticism and proceed unhindered on the path of renewal. In today's world, labels like conservatism and socialism are fast disappearing. We have to look for common ground for survival and collaboration.

If we are to make a success of multiculturalism as an aspect of government policy, we would have to rely on multicultural resources, human, material and intellectual, hence the need for the establishment of the multicultural planning council. Says Glen Lich of the University of Winnipeg: "Few nations could invest better in security and survivability than Canada has done by engaging in the experiment with multiculturalism. But are we doing with the resources what we need to be doing?

And can a policy make much difference ... or create a unifying heritage of diversity and a viable fabric of nationhood?" The answer is yes. What we need to do is to accept the concept of multiculturalism as the underpinning idea in our social planning. It may be argue d that the proposed Multiculturalism Secretariat referred to in

Section 5 of Bill 98 will take care of public participation, assessment of needs and intercultural exchange. This will clearly be insufficient, and knowing what we do of the ways of government, the Secretariat will more than likely evolve into a top-heavy system of administration. The report of the Social Planning Council of the City of Winn ipeg state s: Ther e mu st be representation from the multicultural community in the planning, implementation and evaluation of public policies.

For any policy to be meaningfu l, it must meet the expectations and aspirations of all ethnocultural communities, and must fully involve them in both the development and implementation of policies and programs that follow. It must add to the quality of life for all Manitobans, and it must be based on a realistic view of the political, social, cu ltural and economic circums tances of the province.

June 23, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 257 The Mu lticultur alism Act cannot fai l to acknowledge the premise of this argument. Not to do so would be completely incongruent with our goals and objectives which need to be kept constantly in per specti ve. A planning and monitoring agency would help us pursue these goals with measurable success at various levels of multicultural life. Our ethnic and multicultural groups operate as nonprofit, charitable organizations on a tight budget. The Mu nicip al Assessment Act does not differentiate between a nonprofit organization and a comm ercial outlet.

Cu rrently, certain cultural organizations enjoy tax exemption under a special act of the Legislature enacted for this specific purpose to mark the centennial year. The measure has not been extended to cover other cultural organi zations. The Multiculturalism Act should provide for the elimination of this anomaly by the endowment of ministerial authority to waive the mun icipal levy on a case-by-case basis. Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. Naik. Are there any questions? Ms. Friesen?

Before I entertain the question though, I wonder whether it would the will of the committee to continue sitting until 1 :30 and start hearing Bills 86 and 87. I understand we can, without leave of the House, continue the sitting until1 :30. After 1:30, we have to have leave of the House. So what is the will of the committee? Shall we continue sitting until 1 :30? Are we agreed? Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, I would be in agreement with that as long as we could have maybe just a fiv e-minute recess in between this bill and the next bill. Mr. Chairperson: We could certainly have that. Is the committee agreed to that? Ms.

Cerllll: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I am not sure that we want to do that. We certainly want to canvass the room, so I would suggest that maybe we would recess and then make that decision after we finish hearing- Mr. Chairperson: There are, I un derstand, a significant number of presenters on Bills 86, 87 that are present, that are waiting currently. That is my information, so we will continue then the questioning of Mr. Naik, and after that questioning we will have a five-minute recess, if that is the will of the committee. Then continue the hearing on Bill 86 and 87. Ms.

Friesen: I think, if I understood what was said earlier, that we would take a five-minute recess and then we would decide whether we would continue with Bills 86 and 87. Mr. Chairperson: That was the request of Ms. Cerilli. It is my understanding she wanted to canvass the audience to see how many presenters there were. It is my understanding that there are a significant number of presenters, so we can make the decision now to continue, unless it is the will of the- Ms. Friesen: I do not think we have made that decision. Mr. Chairperson: Yes, most of these people have been here since this morning.

Point of Order Ms. Friesen: On a point of order, I wanted to correct the impression that I think the committee Chairperson has, that we have agreed to look at Bills 86 and 87. What I believe that we have agreed to is to take a five-minute recess when this is completed, and then we will discuss with our other caucus colleagues, who are expecting us to attend a meeting at one o'clock. There are four of us here, it would be a considerable absence and I think we would like to have their consent to that or see what else is on our agenda. Mr. Chairperson: We will make the consideration after we recess. Ms.

Friesen: Thank you. *** Ms. Friesen: I am sorry to keep you waiting with that point of discussion. It is better to be clear, I think. * (1 230) I was interested by the last paragraph of your presentation where you talked about The Municipal Assessment Act and the differentiation between nonprofit and commercial organizations. I do not want to keep you here, but I wondered if you had another brief or if you had made a presentation to other committees or other organizations on that issue that perhaps I could have a copy of? Mr.

Nalk: We made a presentation to the Board of Revision, City of Winnipeg, not any other agency of

258 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 23, 19 92 the government of Manitoba, and we were not considered on the basis that The Mu nicipal Assessment Act as it stands at present does not provide for relief on the tax issue and we would not qualify as a community centre or as a community in itself by virtue of our constitution and our make-up. Ms.

Friesen: I am looking for further information on this because there is a bill before the House at the mom ent on mun icipal assessment, and some similar issues have been raised by sports clubs, and I wondered if perhaps at some point I could receive a copy of your presentations, I would understand the issue from a multicultural perspective as well. Mr.

Nalk: We will forward a copy to you of that presentation, but I would like to make a point here that when we are talking about The Multiculturalism Act, this is the opportunity for us to correct the anomaly that exists in the treatment of organizations which do the same work. I mean, just because they happened to be there in the centennial year and others came later should not be conside red sufficient reason to penalize them. We are a voluntary body.

Most of our cultural organizations are voluntary bodies and they devote a lot of time and effort and sacrifice their time and their energy in order to benefit the community as an ethnic group, which the others are and are exempt from realty tax and other taxes. Other cultural groups like ours should also have the same benefit and should have the same treatment. Mr. Chairperson: Are there any other questions of Mr. Naik? If not, thank you very much for your presentation, Mr. Naik. That concludes the presen tations on this committee. Ms.

Cerllll: I would like to start off by inform ing the committee and the Chairperson that, as we have consulted with the rest of our caucus, we are not willing to extend the hour of the committee. Also, I would ask leave to make a committee change. Mr. Chairper son: Is there leave to mak e a committee change? Ms. Cerllll: That we replace- Mr. Chairperson: It is that time; we were here late last night, and memories do lapse. Ms. Cerilli, have you a proposal for a committee change? Ms. Cerllll: Yes, I was told that I was going to make the wrong committee change, so I am glad I took the time to- Mr.

Chairperson: You might want to make the committee change proposal in the House, because it has to be ratified in the House a little later. If your House leader would make that proposed change in the House then we can- So, are we agreed then that the committee will no longer sit? The first opposition party will not agree to a sitting. Mr. Ducharme: We will then proceed with this committee into the next Bill, 86. We have heard all the presenters so- Mr. Chairperson: Yes, we have heard all the presenters for this bill.

The next bill that will be heard will be 86, and following that will be 87, which the committee, it is my understanding, will sit at seven o'clock. Committee rise. COMMmEE ROSE AT: 12:36 p. m. WRITTEN SUBM ISSIONS PRESENTED BUT NOT READ Presentation to Public Hearing on the Bill to establish a Policy of Multiculturalism for the Province of Manitoba My name is Jock Lowe. I am the president of the West-Man Multicultural Council and have been president of the council for three years. I am an appoi nted member of the Mu lticultural Grants Advisory Council (MGAC) as well.

Both positions of president and MGAC member are voluntary and I receive no salary or remuneration for either position. I am an elected volunteer and a proud citizen of Brandon, Manitoba. I immigrated to this country 14 years ago, and I feel strongly that the strength of this country lies in the fact that organizations encourage immigrants to volunteer their time to participate in multicultural organizations. My experience with MGAC is that I have been able to participate in decisions at all levels and that the decisions are made fairly in an unbiased manner. MGAC is made up from a representative cross

section of the Manitoba population both urban and rural. I have always been made to feel welcome at MGAC meetings, and I have been encouraged to voice my opinions and feelings on

June 23, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 259 the granting process. I do not feel constrained in any way when I participate in the decisions of MGAC, and I feel strongly that MGAC has done an excellent job in being fair about the process of con sidering gran ts for the eth nocu ltural organizations of Manitoba. In fact, MGAC initiated a process whereby organizations could appeal the decisions of MGAC. This appeal process is fair and open to all organizations.

As an elected president of a regional multicultural organization, I feel MGAC is a useful and productive unit in the multicultural equation, and I feel it should be allowed to continue its role in the granting process. I feel honoured to be a part of MGAC and of the West-Man Multicultural Council, and I want to thank you for allowing me the opportunity to express my feelings on this important issue. Thank you. Mr.

E.C. (Jock) Lowe *** Re: Biii98-The Manitoba Multiculturalism Act As someone actively involved with various organizations in the multicultural community ,I would like to applaud the government of Manitoba with respect to the proposed Bill 98, The Manitoba Multiculturalism Act. The bill and its contents recognize the cultural mosaic that makes Manitoba a special place and demonstrates a sincere commitment to foster and promote multiculturalism. I am particularly pleased with the

preamble to the legislation which recognizes that cultural diversity is a source of strength for a society and not a weakness. At the same time the bill stresses the importance of the common value systems and aspirations shared by people of all cultures and ethnic heritages. I believe the bill, once passed, will mark an important milestone for Manitoba by enshrining these principles as part of our provincial law. It will also provide a statutory authority and legality to several existing initiatives such as the Multicultural Secretariat, the Community Access Office and the Multicultural Grants Advisory Council.

Section 3 of the bill gives the minister the power and the duty to implement these ideals and policies into the ever yday affa irs of all govern men t departments and agencies. In fact, the bill directs the Multicultural Secretariat to promote these policies not only in the community at large, but also more specifically in the business community. This is an important provision since it will help to sensitize the business community to the value of cultural linkages and the positive impact they can have on economic development.

The statutory requirement of an annual report is also comm endable as it will provide a vehicle whereby the community can gauge the progress being made. I am also pleased that the minister has instituted a study of the Manitoba Intercultural Council in order to obtain recommendations as to the role it can play in the multicultural community. It will undoubtedly take some time to receive a report and to obtain consensus on its implementation. Therefore, I endorse the action of the government in moving forward with a Manitoba Multiculturalism Act at this time.

In conclusion, I would urge all members of the Legislature to endorse and pass this important legislation without delay. Yours respectfu lly, Delbert F. Plett *** The Winnipeg Jewish Community Council is pleased to have the opportunity to comment on the Manitoba Multiculturalism Act. This act recognizes the diversity of Manitoban society and encom passes all ethnic grou ps, including both visible and non-visible minorities and both recent and more established imm igrant communitie.

Although the Jewish community has. been in existence in the province of Manitoba for some time, we certainly consider ourselves to be part of the multicultural mosaic. The Winnipeg Jewish Commu nity supports the objectives set out in the act, as we believe that a strong and vibrant multicultural community is an integral part of the strength of our pro vince. Establishing a Multiculturalism Secretariat is a positive step in the promotion of these objectives. The establishment of a commun ity access office will, in our view, benefit groups previously unable to access funding and other forms of assistance.

We do, however, have concerns relating to the establishmen t of the Mu lticulturalism Grants Advisory Council. We believe that the integrity of the grant process must be maintained if the goals of the act are to be achieved. Therefo re, the process

260 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 23, 19 92 of appointing members to this advisory committee must be done in consultation with or subject to the approval of the various ethnic communities. The Multiculturalism Grants Advisory Council must be insulated from any suggestion that the appointment of its me mbers are political in natu re. The perception of fairness and the support of Manitoba's ethnic community can only be engend ered through the dem ocratic par ticip ation of the ethnic organizations in the grant process. We would also suggest that the grant process be made as open as possible.

Full disclosure of the activities of the Manitoba Grants Advisory Council, including the number of applications received and the nature and amount of the grants given, should be specific ally included in the annual report to be tabled before the Legislative Assembly. In conclusion, the Winnipeg Jewish Commu nity Council supports this legislation and views the enactment of the Multiculturalism Act as a positive stop towards social solidarity, encouraging equal opportunity, access and participation of all cultural communities.

The next step for government is to implement this legislation in a manner that will ensure that the policies embodied in the Act will flourish. Jonathan Kroft Vice-President Winnipeg Jewish Commu nity Council Mira Thow Chairman Intercultural Affa irs Committee Jewish Communi ty Relations Committee *** The Manitoban Multiculturalism Act is a positive in itiative un de rtaken by the gove rnment of Manitoba. For the first time the diverse nature of Man itoba's peoples is acknowledged in the legislation. The government should be commended for taking the leadership role in promoting multiculturalism in the province.

The act has ma ny worthwhile objectives inclu din g prom oting greater understanding of the cultural diversity of Manitoba. The act is progressive as it enshrines Manitoba's mu lticultural pol icy. The act comm its the governmen t to recognize the right of all Manitobans to equal access, full participation and most importantly respect for multicultural values. It is my hope that the principles set out in 5.2 are used as interpretative guidelines for future government action. I am also pleased with the mandate outlined for the Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism and the Multiculturalism Secretariat.

As past executive member of the Manitoba Intercultural Council, I was heartened that the minister has initiated steps to identify the role of the Mani toba Intercultural Council. It is encouraging to see that the Community Access Office provided for in 5.6 has already been established as of April 19 92, to provide assistance to the groups. It is my hope that such offices will be established outside of Winnipeg also. I look forwar d to the minis ter and the Mu lticulturalism Secretariat developing further initiatives to fulfill the mandates set forth.

Respectfu lly submitted, Prem Shalla *** Good Evening I welcome this opportunity to express my views on the importance of Bill 98. Since coming to Manitoba I am pleased to advise you that the diverse nature of the citizens of Manitoba has made it very easy for my family and I to make Manitoba our home. We were never strangers here, because the majority of our province consists of first or second generation Manitobans who have brought their knowledge, skills and attitudes to Manitoba making it a fine province in which to live and raise a fam ily.

I am glad to see the creation of a Multiculturalism Act because it confirms in writing many of the things we take for granted in Manitoba and enshrines them in law. It is sometimes important to remind ourselves of the obvious, that is our diffe rences that make us so much alike and these differences make us more than the sum of our total skills. Since 19 78 I have been operating as a Manitoba based international mark eting consu ltant, promoting the goods and services of our province in the third world.

I find the Manitoba business commu nity lives by the principles of this act, which means an individual like me can come to Manitoba and have the opportunity to go as far as their skills will allow them to go. Being from India I bring an intimate knowledge of the culture and business attitudes of the Indian subcontinent to Manitoba

June 23, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 261 business people. This helps them to develop markets so far untapped by Manitobans. This argument is also true for people from Asia, western Europe , or the Commo nwealth of Independen t States. The information we carry to Manitoba business helps promote the high standard of living we share in our province. The creation of the secretariat is an important step in making new Manitobans comfortable in their new home. I was fortunate to have friends and relatives in Winnipeg who helped me over the language and lifestyle barriers of coming to a new land.

Many of our new citizens do not have that luxury. A second important reason to have the secretariat and the access office is stated on the first page of Bill 98. It is our desire to have a single society united by sha red laws , va lues, aspir ations and responsibilities. Without an active attempt to help our new citizens weave their way through our complex and confu sing society, they will retreat into their cultural community and we will lose their potential contribution to our multidimensional community.

The role of the Multiculturalism Grants Advisory Council is a crucial part of ensuring the act achieves its stated purposes. This body must be perceived by the commun ities as a means to maintain their culture for themselves and their children while being supportive of the need for their members to become a part of the larger Manitoba culture. It will be a challenge to meet these objectives, but I am confident that the people are available within Manitoba's multicultural community to make this council effec tive. Thank you for your attention, and I appreciate the opportunity of speaking to you this evening.

Hemant Shah *** I commend the government of Manitoba for recognizing the unique nature of our population and taking the steps to prepar e The Manitob a Multiculturalism Act. The Multiculturalism Act appears to be overall a fair docu me nt, as it quo tes: "Manit oba's multicultural society is not a collection of many separate societies divided by language and culture but is a single society united by shared laws, values, aspirations and responsibilities." The multicultural policy recognizes the strength of the diversity of Manitoba's society and promotes its acceptance.

To enhance our economy, it would be of great value that the government encourages trade between Manitobans and their country of origin by taking advantage of the knowledge and connections that may still exist between them. We encou rage government to continue and improve its interaction with the ethnocultural communities in order to remain aware of global concerns so proper action may be taken.

Although there are omissions in the act, as it does not point or suggest any plan of action for its implementation, I recognize it is the opening of a path way for the gover nmen t to fur ther its commitment, foster fairness in our society and above all make Manitoba a desired place to live. Casimiro Rodrigues *** Please submit our brief to the committee which will discuss Bill 98. Our brief is as follows: We feel strongly that the role and importance of the Manitoba Intercultural Council should and must not be ignored in The Manitoba Multiculturalism Act, Bill 98, under discussion.

The MIC should be included in the act and its significance be duly recognized. I am also enclosing a copy of the letter I have sent to the minister, Honourable Mrs. Mitchelson, on beh alf of the Chin ese associations and organizations which belong to the MIC, in the capacity of Chinese representative and member of the MIC. Leo Y. Liu Westman Chinese Association Thank you for your letter of June 10 , 19 92, soliciting the opinion of the Chinese community on The Manitoba Multiculturalism Act and related issues.

The Chinese Caucus, consisting of all Chinese associations and organizations belonging to the Manitoba Intercultural Council, during its meeting held on April 4, 19 92, passed a motion instructing me to write you regarding their concerns. The meeting was attended by representatives from the Manitoba Chinese Benevolent Association, the

262 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 23, 19 92 Winnipeg Chinese Cultural Centre, the Manitoba In do-China Chinese Association, the Chinese Cultural Society, the Westman Chinese Association and the Manitoba Chinese Post. The passed resolution requests that the minister of Cu lture, Heritage and Citizenship consider re-establishing the previous status and function of the Manitoba Intercultural Council. An increase in funding is also essential for the effective operation of the MIC and the effective func tioning of Manitoba's multiculturalism. Leo Y.

Liu, Ph.D Chinese Representative Manitoba Intercultural Council * * * I come before the Standing Committee on Law Amendmen ts as a local businessman, someone involved in and highly committed to multiculturalism, and a member of an ethnic minority. I feel that Bill 98 satisfies me on all counts. Seen as part of a package of regulations, policies, practices and acts, Bill 98 goes a long way to improving both the business and social environment of this province.

At a time when recession and increased racism are placing strains on other governments to alter or drop multiculturalism as an of ficial policy, it is indeed gratifying to see the Manitoba government go against the flow and entrench multiculturalism in legislation. Bill 98 will demonstrate to the rest of Canada and a world increasingly torn by ethnic strife that mu lticulturalism can form the foundation for a stronger mo re uni fied and huma ne society. Multiculturalism is nothing to be afraid of. Rather than being divisive there is strength in diversity.

Bill 98 will also enable Manitoba to be a more competitive player at a time when borders are disappearing and world markets are opening up. An atmosphere of acceptance and tolerance will enable Manitoba to attract not only immigrants, but fore ign investment. This ability to attract not only fore ign investment but immigrants will help provide Manitoba with a large pool of talent and skill. Ultima tely, if Mani toba businessmen take advantage of this talent, doors will be opened to export markets around the world.

As manager of a company planning to export both product and technology, I look forward to using Bill 98 as a tool to attract both business and staff. As we look to expand our exports around the world using Winnipeg as a centre for an international operation, this bill and other government policies will make it far easier to attract highly skilled staff from around the world. We can proudly display Manitoba as a province that will not tolerate discrimination and hatred. Rather, we view the diffe rences reflected in a multicultural society as a tool to make us all better people.

This bill announces to all that Manitoba is open to all for business and welcomes those who seek a better life to come here and make Manitoba their new home. While Bill 98 is important in acknowledging that people who are different have equal rights and access to opportunity in Manitoba, it is also important for another major reason. At a time when racism, discrimination and intolerance are on the increase, Bill 98 rightly recognizes that while the wrappings may be diff erent, underneath we are all basically the same.

While our languages and traditions may be different, basically we all have the same goals, aspirations, desires and sense of what is right and just. We who have been born here and have decided to stay or have chosen to come to Manitoba are all here for the quality of life and the hope to make a better life for ourselves and our families. Bill 98 will help signal to all that Manitoba will not tolerate the racism and discrimination that plagues all minorities, visible or not, and affects their ability to improve their lives. Perhaps it is this recognition that is the most important aspect of the bill.

If we can educate people to the fact that we are all basically the same, we will have taken a major step in alleviating racism. The structures Bill 98 enshrines can play a major role in that education process. Both the Secretariat and

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-la8
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf la8.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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