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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session, 38th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Wednesday, April 2, 2008 Afternoon Sitting Volume 29, Number 5 THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC FOURTH SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...................... Hon.

Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ........................................................................................................ Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ........................................... Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands.......................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism............................................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ................................................................................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of State for Childcare ........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues........................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics.................Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...........................................................................................................Hon.

Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources .......................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining......................................................................................................................................................Hon. Kevin Krueger Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...............Hon.

Barry Penner Minister of Finance.......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ............................................................................. Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Health ......................................................................................................................................................................Hon.

George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General and Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations............... Hon. John van Dongen Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Regulatory Reform............................................ Hon.

Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sport and the Arts ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of State for ActNow B.C. ............................................................................................................................................ Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition .........................................................................................................................................................Carole James Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................Sindi Hawkins Deputy Speaker ...........................................................................................................................................................................

Katherine Whittred Assistant Deputy Speaker.....................................................................................................................................................................Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole................................................................................................................................................. Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .........................................................................................................................E.

George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .......................................................................................................................................................Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ...................................................................................................................................................................Jo-Anne Kern Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Dan Arbic

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) .................................................................... Shuswap Austin, Robin (NDP)............................................................................. Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP).................................................................. Surrey-Newton Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)..........................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon.

Pat (L) .............................................................Prince George North Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................ East Kootenay Black, Iain (L) ............................................................ Port Moody–Westwood Bloy, Harry (L)................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).....................................Prince George–Mount Robson Brar, Jagrup (NDP).....................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Campbell, Hon.

Gordon (L) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey Cantelon, Ron (L)..............................................................Nanaimo-Parksville Chong, Hon. Ida (L) .................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...........................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ................................................. Okanagan-Vernon Chudnovsky, David (NDP) ......................................... Vancouver-Kensington Coell, Hon.

Murray (L) .....................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...........................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) .......................................... West Kootenay–Boundary Coons, Gary (NDP) ....................................................................... North Coast Cubberley, David (NDP)............................................................Saanich South de Jong, Hon.

Michael (L) ...................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Dix, Adrian (NDP) .........................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Evans, Corky (NDP).................................................................Nelson-Creston Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...............................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Fleming, Rob (NDP) ..............................................................Victoria-Hillside Fraser, Scott (NDP) ..............................................................Alberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (NDP).......................................................................Delta North Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................ Comox Valley Hammell, Sue (NDP) ................................................... Surrey–Green Timbers Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) ..................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Hawes, Randy (L).......................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Sindi (L) ............................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................ Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon.

Gordon (L).....................................................Surrey–White Rock Horgan, John (NDP)......................................................Malahat–Juan de Fuca Horning, Al (L)........................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)...............................................................Richmond Centre James, Carole (NDP).......................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Jarvis, Daniel (L)..................................................

North Vancouver–Seymour Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ........................................... Esquimalt-Metchosin Krog, Leonard (NDP)......................................................................... Nanaimo Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L) .....................................Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)........................... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lali, Harry (NDP)........................................................................

Yale-Lillooet Lee, Richard T. (L)....................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L).............................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L)........................................................................ Chilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, Norm (NDP).................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine Mayencourt, Lorne (L).......................................................Vancouver-Burrard McIntyre, Joan (L).................................................West Vancouver–Garibaldi Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .................................................. Peace River North Nuraney, John (L).............................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Oppal, Hon. Wally, QC (L).......................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...........................................................

Chilliwack-Kent Polak, Mary (L) ....................................................................................Langley Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)...................................................... New Westminster Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ............................................................. Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................ Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L).............................................................

Kamloops Robertson, Gregor (NDP) ................................................Vancouver-Fairview Roddick, Valerie (L).......................................................................Delta South Routley, Doug (NDP)..................................................... Cowichan-Ladysmith Rustad, John (L) ........................................................

Prince George–Omineca Sather, Michael (NDP).........................................Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Bob (NDP)..................................................................Cariboo North Simpson, Shane (NDP) ....................................................Vancouver-Hastings Sultan, Ralph (L) ....................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Taylor, Hon.

Carole (L).....................................................Vancouver-Langara Thorne, Diane (NDP) .................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L).......................................................Okanagan-Westside Trevena, Claire (NDP) ..................................................................North Island van Dongen, Hon. John (L)............................................ Abbotsford-Clayburn Whittred, Katherine (L)........................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wyse, Charlie (NDP) .................................................................Cariboo South Yap, John (L)...................................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman .......................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum..........................................................................

Scott Fraser Bulkley Valley–Stikine ...........................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North ...........................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds........................................................................Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Willingdon................................................................... John Nuraney Burquitlam.......................................................................................Harry Bloy Cariboo North..............................................................................

Bob Simpson Cariboo South..............................................................................Charlie Wyse Chilliwack-Kent ..................................................................Hon. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas............................................................................... John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke................................................. Norm Macdonald Comox Valley........................................................................ Hon.

Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville..............................................................Diane Thorne Cowichan-Ladysmith ................................................................. Doug Routley Delta North ...................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ............................................................................. Valerie Roddick East Kootenay................................................................................

Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin.........................................................Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops.....................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ............................................Hon. Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country.................................................................. Al Horning Kelowna-Mission ......................................................................

Sindi Hawkins Langley ...........................................................................................Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca .................................................................. John Horgan Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................ Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ..................................................... Michael Sather Nanaimo......................................................................................

Leonard Krog Nanaimo-Parksville .....................................................................Ron Cantelon Nelson-Creston .............................................................................Corky Evans New Westminster .................................................................. Chuck Puchmayr North Coast....................................................................................

Gary Coons North Island ...............................................................................Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale................................................Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour..........................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head ........................................................... Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon......................................................... Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside..............................................................Hon.

Rick Thorpe Peace River North.......................................................... Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South..................................................................... Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley .................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ............................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood.................................................................... Iain Black Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...............................................

Nicholas Simons Prince George North.................................................................... Hon. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson ............................................Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................ John Rustad Richmond Centre......................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Richmond East........................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston...........................................................................John Yap Saanich North and the Islands ............................................ Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South ........................................................................ David Cubberley Shuswap............................................................................Hon. George Abbott Skeena.......................................................................................... Robin Austin Surrey-Cloverdale............................................................... Hon.

Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers ................................................................Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton............................................................................... Harry Bains Surrey–Panorama Ridge.................................................................Jagrup Brar Surrey-Tynehead ....................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley...........................................................................Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock ............................................................Hon.

Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard..............................................................Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview.............................................................Gregor Robertson Vancouver-Fraserview .................................................Hon.

Wally Oppal, QC Vancouver-Hastings .................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington.......................................................David Chudnovsky Vancouver-Kingsway ......................................................................Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara ........................................................... Hon. Carole Taylor Vancouver–Mount Pleasant........................................ Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena.........................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill...................................................................

Carole James Victoria-Hillside ...........................................................................Rob Fleming West Kootenay–Boundary........................................................Katrine Conroy West Vancouver–Capilano...........................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ........................................................Joan McIntyre Yale-Lillooet..................................................................................... Harry Lali

CONTENTS Wednesday, April 2, 2008 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................ 10785 Statements (Standing Order 25 B) .............................................................................................................................. ........... 10785 Coastal Health Care Committee S. Fraser Autism J. Rustad Kicking Horse Culture N. Macdonald Parkinson's disease J. Nuraney Kesha Neal C. Wyse Community market in Steveston J.

Yap Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ....................................................... 10787 Investigation into ICBC vehicle sales C. James Hon. J. van Dongen H. Bains B. Ralston Hon. W. Oppal G. Gentner R. Fleming ICBC performance bonuses to Paul Taylor M. Farnworth Hon. J. van Dongen Protection of information in CORNET database L. Krog Hon. J. van Dongen Great Bear conservancy and Nascall River power project G. Coons Hon. B.

Penner Petitions...................................................................................................................... ............................................................. 10792 R. Fleming Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ................................................. 10792 Utilities Commission Amendment Act, 2008 (Bill 15) Hon. R. Neufeld J. Horgan N. Macdonald R. Austin S. Simpson S. Hammell B. Ralston Hon. B. Penner C. Evans C. Puchmayr M. Sather C. Trevena

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................. 10825 Estimates: Ministry of Transportation (continued) Hon. K. Falcon M. Karagianis M. Sather G. Robertson D. Routley Point of Privilege (Reservation of Right) ...................................................................................... ...................................... 10841 N.

Simons Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................. 10841 Estimates: Ministry of Transportation (continued) D. Routley Hon. K. Falcon R. Fleming D. Cubberley G. Coons

10785 WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 The House met at 1:33 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Prayers. Introductions by Members Hon. G. Campbell: Hon. Spe ak er, I am pleased to say that in the precinct today we have Evalina Puddifoot, who is a grade 5 student from Queen Mary Elementary School. I'm sure you remember that yesterday we had the people from Queen Mary Elementary School. Evalina had so much fun that she decided to come back with her mother today. I think she may actually be one of our fu- ture Premiers, so I hope we'll all make her welcome. M.

Polak: Today in the gallery we're joined by my daughter Miriam Polak and her friend Dani Boon. I hope the House will make them welcome. K. Whittred: Mr. Speaker, I have an introduction, in fact, on behalf of you. I would like to take this opportunity to welcome a group of public servants seated in the gallery. They are participating in a full-day parliamentary procedure work- shop offered by the Legislative Assembly.

The workshop provides a firsthand opportunity for the public service to gain a greater understanding of the relationship be- tween the work of their ministries and how that work affects this Legislature. Would the House please make them welcome. [1335] Hon. W. Oppal: In the House this afternoon is Judge Herb Weitzel, a well-known judge of the Provincial Court who has been on the court for many, many years. H e ' s s e r v e d t h e p u b l i c o f t h i s p r o v i n c e i n a y e o m a n manner. I would ask that the House make him welcome. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) COASTAL HEALTH CARE COMMITTEE S. Fraser: Community members and health care workers in the west health area have a strong desire to be involved in planning future health delivery in the region. The Coastal Health Care Committee was formed in 2006 in response to local concerns about the state of the health services, including shortages of phy- sicians and nurses in the area served by Tofino General Hospital. This area includes not just residents of Tofino and Ucluelet but all of the Nuu-chah-nulth communi- ties of Clayoquot Sound and, for many parts of the year, thousands and thousands of visitors also.

Since the dissolution of the hospital boards, con- cerns have been voiced that community involvement in health care planning on the west health area have dwindled. Physicians, nurses and other health care staff have been dealing with mounting demands and shrinking service support — a dangerous combination in a region that has a peak seasonal population that exceeds 25,000 and that is geographically challenged and isolated.

So the west coast health committee took the bull by the horns and, in partnership with the Tofino Hospital Foundation, hired a facilitator to solicit and summarize local community and health care providers' input re- garding local health services. These are the people that really know. The recommendations are thoughtful and essential, and they need to be implemented. They include replac- ing the hospital. It has served the community well for many years.

It includes addressing urgent medical and nursing staff recruitment issues, providing housing for locums, encouraging nursing programs to train nurses in rural health care, building a residential care facility, increasing support services to help seniors, and helping communities develop assisted-living options. And there are many more. I applaud the work and th e dedication of all in- volved with planning for su stainable rural health care delivery on the west coast.

The Coastal Health Care Committee sets an example that should be considered and supported by health au thorities across the prov- ince, where community member s and local health care deliverers work together to solve local challenges. Please join me in applauding their work. AUTISM J. Rustad: I rise today to speak in recognition of the first annual World Autism Awareness Day. The pins many of us are wearing today represent the missing piece of a puzzle that is au tism.

Autism may be just a word to you or me, but to millions of children and youth throughout the world and their families it can mean many things including daily therapy sessions, social impairment and, for some parents, never being able to hear their child say the words "I love you." It's also associated with rigid routines and repeti- tive behaviours such as obsessively arranging objects, flapping hands, walking on tippytoes or endlessly re- peating lines from a movie or book.

It can mean never wavering from a very specific routine such as taking the same street to school, pu tting on the same shoes or eating the same meal over and over again. Symptoms of children on the autism spectrum can range from mild to severe. Today one in 150 children is diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder. Autism doesn't discriminate. It knows no geographical or socioeconomic boundaries. It occurs in all racial, ethnic and social groups and is four times more likely to strike boys than girls. Here in B.C. we currently serve over 5,000 children and youth with autism spectrum disorder.

I'm proud to say that since 2001 our budget for treatment and fund- ing for programs has increased to $43 million annually. We're also playing a strong role in supporting autism

10786 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 research through ongoing studies at UBC and the re- cent announcement of a $1 million investment to create an autism research chair at SFU, which was also matched by the federal government. It's only through understanding and compassion that we will all learn to appreciate the unique abilities of children and adults with autism and gain a better understanding of how they view the world around us. [1340] KICKING HORSE CULTURE N. Macdonald: Kicking Horse Culture is one of a great many arts councils around this province.

Each arts council is unique to their particular community. The last time I talked about arts councils, I talked about funding. Funding is really important to allow what is fundamentally a volunteer effort. The opportunities that arts councils provide to people to express themselves creatively, to enjoy high-quality performances and exhibitions and to have communities come together are critically important. The Community Arts Advisory Committee, which is a provincial body, recently commended Kicking Horse Culture for its range of arts practices and for its culturally diverse offerings.

To give members here an idea of that range, you had our winter festival this year in Golden. It was the Snow King Goes Bollywood , which showcased the great Indian cinema music tradition. There was a production of a book of salvaged photos from Golden's past, called Adventurers and Settlers. That was put together from an exhibition in Golden's new art gallery, which Kicking Horse Culture also runs. The community was able to see choirs from Nelson, Irish musicians, Ballet Kelowna as well as winning movies from the Banff Mountain Film Festival, called the Best from the Fest.

Ki cking Horse Culture also brings together local talent. Poet Caleb Moss with his students, singer Jane Fearing, musician Carl Trinkwon, local sculptors, painters and many other exceptional talents are given a venue to share their skills and in- spire others to give it a try. I have to mention Bill Usher, who is the executive director. His wife was a music teacher at my elementary school. Bill would come and dr um with the students. I was telling the students about the famous musicians that Bill had played with and the musicians he had produced back in Toronto.

The only thing that impressed them was that he had sung a song with Big Bird on Sesame Street, which impressed me as well. Within all of our communities, there are special talents. Kicking Horse Culture and arts councils across the province let us share people's talents. I ask the Leg- islature to join me in showing that we appreciate and salute their efforts. PARKINSON'S DISEASE J. Nuraney: The month of April is Parkinson's Awareness Month. Parkinson's disease belongs to a group of conditions called motor system disorders.

Four primary symptoms are tremor or trembling of hands, arms, legs, jaw and face; rigidity or stiffness of limbs and trunk; slowness of movement; and impaired balance and coordination. It usually affects people over 50. There are approxi- mately 100,000 people in Canada and 7,000 in British Columbia who suffer from this disease. At present there is no cure for this disease. A very famous Burnaby resident, Michael J. Fox, was affected by this disease some years ago. I have been witnessing the gradual deterioration of his condi- tion over the years. I have the opportunity to see him every year.

Even though his mental faculties are intact, his physical motor systems are evidently getting worse. Our government has invested $25 million, as an- nounced in our throne speech, in building a centre for brain health at UBC. Diseases involving the brain affect a growing number of the British Columbia population. Close to 50 percent of British Columbians are affected by a brain disease like stroke, multiple sclerosis or neurode- generative diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. This centre will help identify the causes and hopefully treatment for this debilitating disease.

I would like to ask the members of our Legislature to bring this message of awareness of Parkinson's disease to their constituents. KESHA NEAL C. Wyse: Every day brings a challenge to every person on this planet. These challenges vary from person to person or from day to day for individuals. In my constituency, a young woman meets her challenges in a way that makes many of our problems insignificant. Kesha Neal is a young woman who has faced challenges her entire life.

She has cerebral palsy, a condition that limits her physical abilities while leav- ing her cognitive abilities intact. [1345] M i s s N e a l l i v e d a t h o m e w i t h t h e s u p p o r t o f h e r family while growing up. Since her graduation from high school in Williams Lake, Miss Neal has worked as a volunteer and as a paid employee with the Central Interior Community Service Cooperative. When she lived at home, she had home support twice a week. Her mother provided care at night and on weekends. Like all young people, however, Miss Neal looked forward to the independence that comes from living on her own.

As a young person in her early 20s, she longed for a place to live separate from but near her family. In Williams Lake that independence was partially realized when she moved into the seniors village, the only facility that could provide the care she requires. While Miss Neal appreciates the physical care she re- ceives, she longs to have the intellectual stimulation of interacting with other people her own age. She would like to live with peers who, like her, may be physically limited but function well intellectually.

Miss Neal would like to live in a facility that allows her to be independent, allows her to continue to work

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10787 and allows her to realize her potential as a contributing member of society. Miss Neal is a role model for other young, able and disabled citizens. Please join me in acknowledging Miss Neal's efforts to make her world and ours a better place. COMMUNITY MARKET IN STEVESTON J. Yap: I rise today to talk about something new coming soon to Richmond -Steveston. The Steveston Community Society and the city of Richmond will be hosting a weekly farmers' and artisans' market in Steveston. This market will showcase some of the community's finest local flavours.

Local produce, fresh seafood, arts, crafts and entertainment will fill the compound of the Gulf of Georgia Cannery every Sunday starting May 4 to September 28. This market will give Richmond farmers and others from across British Columbia an opportunity to show- case their best for locals and tourists alike. The market will serve as a focal point where people can come to shop and socialize in their own community. Visitors to the market will experience all the amenities and activities that the area has to offer in an open, safe and scenic location in the heart of historic Steveston village.

Visitors will also be able to experience fresh seafood sold from fishermen's boats at the nearby docks. After many years of trying to organize a farmers' mar- ket, small domestic farmers will now be able to sell their products locally. The market will bring about agricultural awareness and reflect the importance of supporting local businesses and farming. Ve ndors will benefit from the supportive marketing team, wider exposure and the op- portunity to serve a growing residential community as well as tourists who come to Steveston.

Our community is fortunate to have this market to enjoy for the coming summer months. I'd like to thank all those involved in planning this market — in par- ticular Leisa Yee, Loren Slye and Jim Kojima — and recognize their efforts towards promoting a greener community. Thanks to them and support from the city of Richmond, Steveston will join the growing number of communities in B.C. with farmers' markets.

I invite one and all to check out this new market when it starts May 4 and on any given Sunday until September 28 when the last market will happen, coincidentally, on the day that we celebrate the conclusion of BC150's Rivermania celebration in — where else? — Steveston. Oral Questions INVESTIGATION INTO ICBC VEHICLE SALES C. James: Y e s t e r d a y , j u s t b e f o r e q u e s t i o n p e r i o d , the Premier appointed a new Solicitor General. He's now had 24 hours to be briefed and to take action.

Will the Solicitor General today release ICBC's internal investigation so that British Columbians really can see how deep this scandal goes? Hon. J. van Dongen: I thank the Leader of the Op- position for the question. I want to begin by confirming that the issues that have arisen at the research facility in Burnaby, operated by ICBC , are unacceptable. They're unacceptable to our government. They're unacceptable to me as the minister responsible.

They're unacceptable to the board and management of ICBC. [1350] As minister responsible, on behalf of the govern- ment, on behalf of the board and management of ICBC, and on behalf of all of the employees of ICBC who were not involved in this ac tivity, I want to apologize, first of all, to the purchasers of vehicles that may have been deficient or where ther e was improper disclosure. I want to apologize to all the people of British Columbia, who have a right to expect integrity within the opera- tions of their Crown corporations. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental. C.

James: Now we've heard the head of ICBC say he's sorry. Now we've heard the Solicitor General say he's sorry. What's missing is the government coming clean and telling the public what really went on. That's what's needed. Quite frankly, British Columbians don't trust ICBC to come clean. It was ICBC management that actually ran the scam, and now it's ICBC management that's saying to British Columbians: "Don't worry; everything has been cleaned up." Well, this scandal isn't going to go away. It can't be pushed under the rug. There are too many unanswered questions.

So my question again to the Solicitor General: will he finally come clean? Will he tell us who was involved in the scam, will he tell us who's been fired, and will he tell us…? Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Member, just take your seat for a second. Members. Continue. C. James: Will the Solicitor General tell us who's been let go, who was fired and who got a pay package as they walked out the door? Hon.

J. van Dongen: All of the information I have received in the last 24 hours confirms that the board of directors and senior management of ICBC acted im- mediately when they became aware that there were improprieties at the research centre in Burnaby. They immediately launched an internal investiga- tion and, concurrent with th at, engaged the services of PricewaterhouseCoopers, an independent external firm that will review all of the issues and all of the actions by ICBC. That report will be made public when it is complete.

The findings of the internal review confirm that since 1998, there were 98 vehicles that had been sold

10788 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 from that centre without proper disclosure, without proper designation, and that 22 of those were pur- chased by employees. As a result, ICBC has attempted to contact all of the purcha sers of those vehicles and ensure that the necessary repairs or inspections were done. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplemental. C. James: Without that internal report being made public, the public in fact doesn't know whether what t h e m i n i s t e r i s t e l l i n g u s i s a c c u r a t e .

W e h a v e n o i d e a whether ICBC acted immediately, because we haven't seen that internal report. So the question remains about whether that report is going to be made public. Quite frankly, this scam has continued to grow. The information has continued to trickle out. The information wasn't disclosed fully. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Member, just sit down for a second. Would other members care to listen to the question and the answer? Continue. C. James: This scam continues to grow. Mr. Speaker, you'll remember that this scandal started off with write- offs being sold to the unsuspecting public.

Now we know that ICBC management actually used an auction scam to be able to get those cars. They knew what the bids would be. They were able to outbid, and they were able to get those vehicles. So this is anything but clean. This is anything but full disclosure. [1355] Again to the Solicitor General: will he tell this House today who set up the scam and who is going to be held accountable? Will he release that internal inves- tigation, because the public has a right to know? Hon. J. van Dongen: I repeat. The Insurance Corpo- ration immediately launched an internal investigation.

They immediately turned over relevant information to the RCMP and have committed to the RCMP their full cooperation. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that the issues are serious, and all of the due diligence that is required from the board of directors and the s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t o f I C B C w i l l b e e x p e c t e d o f them. The PricewaterhouseCoopers report is an external independent review of all of the issues and will be made public in due course. That commitment was made by ICBC.

I should also advise the member that on March 19 the CEO of ICBC disclosed all of the in- formation to the public in terms of the investigation that was done. H. Bains: What is at the core of this issue is the in- tegrity and the public trust in that Crown corporation. Obviously, this government and this minister have no understanding of that concept, coming from those answers, which are the only things you can judge from. ICBC spokesman Doug McClelland has told the media that more write-offs than initially thought were bought in rigged auctions, but he refused to disclose how many.

ICBC deals with 42,000 write-offs per year, but we don't know how many of those were later bought by ICBC officials as part of their own auction scam. To the Solicitor General: how many officials were involved, how many cars were bought in this scam, and when will he make this internal report open? Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. J. van Dongen: It is a fact that the reputation and the integrity of the organization are at stake, and that's why the situation and the conduct at the research facility are unacceptable. That's why our government has confirmed that it is unacceptable.

As minister responsible, I expect the board of direc- tors and the senior management of ICBC to conduct the full degree of internal investigation as the responsible managers of the organization. I expect Pricewater- houseCoopers to report fully on the full extent of the relevant issues with respect to this matter. So if there are more details that need to come out, then I expect the board and the management of ICBC to identify those issues and deal with them. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. H.

Bains: If the minister was serious about what he's saying, then he would stand up today and say that that internal report will be made public today. In the view that it is clear that upper management at ICBC knew what the auction scam was, because they set it up, they participated in it. British Columbians have the right, especially the consumers of ICBC, to know how far this fraud reached into ICBC. Will the Solicitor General name the managers and the vice-presidents involved in this scam? And how much severance pay are they going to receive as they walk out the door? Hon.

J. van Dongen: I want to begin my response to that question by reminding the member that the employer is ICBC. As the em ployer, they have certain legal requirements, legal obligations and legal duties that they have to meet in the conduct of the business of ICBC. They are bound by th e law; they are bound by personal privacy responsibilities. [1400] Within the context of thos e obligations, I expect the board of ICBC and the senior management to deal appropriately with any iden tified misconduct of em- ployees.

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10789 Beyond that, I reiterate that if there is any possible criminal activity, it is up to the RCMP. The information is available to them. ICBC has committed to ongoing cooperation with them on matters that may be of inter- est to the RCMP. B.

Ralston: On Saturday, March 29, the Premier said, in connection with the resignation of the previous Solicitor General, the following: "The appointment of a special prosecutor is a very low threshold to make sure people don't say and can't say there's any political interference." Given the potentially politically sensitive nature of these matters, is the Attorney General able to advise whether or not Mr. Gillen has appointed a special prosecutor to assist any investigation that may be on- going? Hon. W. Oppal: That member is a member of the bar. I'm sure he knows the law.

The matter of whether or not a special prosecutor is appointed is a matter en- tirely for the jurisdiction and the authority of the criminal justice branch. The assistant deputy minister would make that decision. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. B. Ralston: Perhaps the Attorney General misun- derstood my question. I'm well aware that it's Mr. Gillen who would make the decision, but apparently o n l y b y w a y o f a s k i n g a p u b l i c q u e s t i o n d o e s t h e Attorney General then announce it to the public. My question to the Atto rney General is this. Has Mr.

Gillen appointed a special prosecutor to assist the investigation in this matter? Hon. W. Oppal: The decision as to whether a special prosecutor will or will not be appointed is entirely within the jurisdicti on of the criminal justice branch and the assistant de puty minister. They will decide, in their wisdom, in their authority, whether or not to make that announcement of the appointment public. G. Gentner: To the Solicitor General, a quick ques- tion: will the terms of reference of the Pricewaterhouse report be released to the public, and when? Hon.

J. van Dongen: All of the relevant issues to this event — the conduct of activities at the research centre — will be reviewed by Pricewaterhouse and will be disclosed to the public, including the terms of refer- ence. I have not at this time had the opportunity to review the terms of reference. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. G. Gentner: You know, the opposite side has had lots of experience in investigations. We saw a lot of it, of course, done with the B.C. Lottery Corporation. We're seeing things happening with B.C. Rail, etc. Why will the minister not release it today — those terms of reference?

Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Just take your seat for a second. Hon. J. van Dongen: Once the complete investiga- tion by PricewaterhouseCoop ers is complete, then the terms of reference will be released as part of the report. I want to reiterate… [1405] Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon.

J. van Dongen: …that my expectation of the board of directors and then management of ICBC will be to do all of the due diligence necessary in terms of their management responsibilities and to ensure that all of the appropriate issues that need to be dealt with, including some of the questions raised by the members, will be covered by the Pricewaterhouse report which, as I said, will be independent and outside the organization. R. Fleming: I appreciate that the Solicitor General is confident that the terms of reference of this internal investigation are adequate, although he just admitted he hasn't read them yet.

Pending receipt of the report, the issue of public confidence here is such that they want to know that the internal investigation goes far enough, goes deep enough and will restore confidence in this Crown corporation. We don't need to receive the entire report before the public is allowed to know whether the scope of that au dit investigation is thor- ough enough. My question to the Solicitor General is…. Get briefed now on what those terms of reference are. When you do, will you come back and will you table in this House what those terms of reference are? Hon.

J. van Dongen: I want to caution the members that there are thousands of employees at the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia who are ethical. They're doing their jobs every day on behalf of the people of British Columbia. I want to reiterate that the board and management have acted immediately. They have disclosed the re- sults of their own investigation. They have fully shared that information with the RCMP. They have committed to full cooperation with the RCMP.

Within the con- straints of the law and the privacy legislation, all of the investigation and recommendations of Pricewater- houseCoopers will be released to the public. R. Fleming: The importance to the thousands of employees at ICBC who do their jobs well every day for the public…. They have the same interests as the public in this matter. They want to see corruption

10790 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 rooted out, thoroughly inve stigated and consequences to follow, where appropriate. What the public needs right now is to know that this government, because their record on this is pretty bad in other instances, is thoroughly investigating this matter. So I ask the Solicitor General again: will he release the terms of reference of the PricewaterhouseCoopers internal investigation? Hon.

J. van Dongen: The terms of reference of the report will form part of the report which will be re- leased to the public, as I said, subject to legal restraints and particularly freedom-of-information requirements. ICBC PERFORMANCE BONUSES TO PAUL TAYLOR M. Farnworth: The answer, then, to this scandal, the latest scandal, is that th e public will find out once the report is done what the terms of references are. So there's no opportunity to see whether the terms of ref- erences are indeed adequate or cover the full scope that needs to be investigated.

Perhaps there's a question , then, that the minister can answer. We know that the vast majority of the em- ployees of ICBC are doing a terrific job, but ICBC has felt confident enough that they can name and make statements that vice-presidents have gone and that managers have been fired. We've got a new minister in place who is supposed to be accountable here in this House. We've got a chair who's also supposed to be accountable and a president who is supposed to be accountable. Can he tell us w h e t h e r M r .

P a u l T a y l o r w i l l b e p a y i n g b a c k s o m e o f his considerable performance bonuses in light of this terrific lacklustre performance by ICBC? [1410] Hon. J. van Dongen: The outcome of the investiga- tion conducted by ICBC se nior management, in coop- eration with PricewaterhouseCoopers, confirmed that these sales of these 98 vehicles go back to 1998. I think that is an important find ing. ICBC, through senior management, continues to confirm…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Minister, just take your seat for a second. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Continue, Minister. Hon.

J. van Dongen: In the review that I have done to this point, I continue to have confidence in the board of directors of ICBC. They ar e directors that have been identified for their skills and experience in board gov- ernance. The CEO of ICBC that reports to that board of directors, who is hired by them and whose perform- ance is appraised by them, is a longstanding public servant in our province as a deputy minister of Treas- ury Board and a Deputy Minister of Finance, and has a long career in the public service in Alberta.

I confirm that based on the information to date, I have confidence in the board and management of ICBC, and I think we need to continue to support em- ployees that do a good job every day on behalf of the public in British Columbia. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. M. Farnworth: Well, at some point the buck has got to stop somewhere on that side of the House — if not on the minister's desk, then on the Premier's desk. My question to the minister responsible today is: will he recommend to his cabinet colleagues that the perform- ance bonuses for Mr. Taylor at ICBC be paid back? Hon.

J. van Dongen: It is my expectation, as minis- ter responsible, that all of the relevant issues be identi- fied and investigated by PricewaterhouseCoopers and that all of the findings in te rms of the issues, all of the actions by ICBC and the fi ndings of Pricewaterhouse- C o o p e r s , b e p a r t o f t h e r e p o r t t h a t i s p r o v i d e d t o t h e public. It has been committed by ICBC, and that is sub- ject to legal requirements — all of the legal constraints that they operate in. PROTECTION OF INFORMATION IN CORNET DATABASE L.

Krog: The Auditor General's recent audit made it clear that the government did not take steps to protect its CORNET database, which contains highly sensitive data on both adult and youth offenders. It wasn't until a damn- ing audit by the Auditor General that the government took steps to protect this highly sensitive information. Can the Solicitor General explain to this House how that database was made so vulnerable? Hon. J. van Dongen: Given my level of activity on the major issue of the day in the last 24 hours, I appre- ciate the member's question. I will take it on notice.

GREAT BEAR CONSERVANCY AND NASCALL RIVER POWER PROJECT G. Coons: The Nascall private power project in the Great Bear rain forest will destroy one of the most spec- tacular lake systems on our coast.

Two years ago the Premier said he would protect this area, but the legisla- tion to do so has stalled. [1415] The proponents of the project say that the represen- tatives for the Ministry of Environment "have indicated the conservancy designation will not be going ahead until there is an agreement with first nations and inde- pendent power producers in the area." My question to the Minist er of Environment: is the minister delaying legislation on the Great Bear rain

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10791 forest conservancy until first nations bow to the pres- sure and accept private power projects? Hon. B. Penner: I'm pleased to finally get a ques- tion. It's the first question I' ve had in this session, and I think it's…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Minister, continue. Hon. B. Penner: It appears that their lack of interest in the environment continues, because the question is not even posed by the Environment critic.

Nevertheless, our government is proud of our record. In fact, we've already established in law 65 conservancies on the north coast. As a result of the historic land use agreement that was reached in discussions with all sorts of different parties including first nations, environ- mental groups, local gove rnments and the province of British Columbia, we will be bringing forward legislation later in this session to establish even more conservancies on the north coast of British Columbia. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. The member has a supplemental. G. Coons: I can see the minister….

With all the scandals on that side of the House, it's hard to get ques- tions over there. Now, both the Heiltsuk and the…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Member, just take your seat for a second. Members. Continue, Member. G. Coons: Both the Heiltsuk and the Nuxalk, whose traditional territory the private power project crosses, oppose this project. First nations are concerned that the government is stalling on protecting the Great Bear due to their desire to see the Nascall River project proceed. So much for the new relationship.

Will the minister confirm that the Great Bear con- servancy is on hold until the first nations agree to let the Nascall private power project go ahead? Hon. B. Penner: Just before I give my more fulsome answer, I'll note that the En vironment critic has seen fit to get on his feet and ask te n questions this session, but I'm still waiting for my first question from him. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. B. Penner: I'm pleased that the member for North Coast has seen fit to ask me a question. There are a number of first nations in British Columbia…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members.

Minister, just wait for a second. Continue. Hon. B. Penner: There are a number of first nations in British Columbia who are partnering with inde- pendent power producers in developing clean and green renewable energy for British Columbia, and the NDP has been opposed to every single first nation that's doing that and to those projects. We are committed to creating new sources of elec- tricity. They left us with an electricity deficit, making us reliant on imported power. We're serious about reducing greenhouse gas em issions, but that does not mean that every single power proposal will get approved.

We demonstrated that last week with the Upper Pitt proposal, and we 'll continue to follow through with our environmental commitments, unlike that side of the House. [End of question period.] R. Fleming: I seek leave to make an introduction. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. [1420] Introductions by Members R. Fleming: With us in the gallery today are a number of students and facu lty representatives. From the University of British Columbia we have Kate Skinner and Aman Bains. From the University of Victoria, Edward Pullman is here, as well as Caitlin Meggs and Tracy Ho.

From the University of British Columbia, Stephanie Ratchin. From the Simon Fraser Student Society their chairperson, Mr. Derek Harder, is with us, as well as Kaitlin Burnett and Robin Stidell. I'd also like to introduce, from the Confederation of University Faculty Associations of British Columbia, the president, Mr. Chris Petter, who joins us today, and the executive director, Mr. Robert Clift. Will the House please make them feel welcome. I would like to present a petition.

10792 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 Mr. Speaker: Proceed. Petitions R. Fleming: I have to hand in to the House nearly 2,000 names on a petition of Coalition Against Funding Cuts at Campuses gathered by students at Simon Fraser, UBC and the University of Victoria. The 2,000 names were gathered in the last 48 hours. They ask the gov- ernment to reverse its year 2 funding cuts that were brought down on March 12. Orders of the Day Hon.

M. de Jong: I call in this chamber second reading of Bill 15, Utilities Commission Amendment Act, 2008, and in Committee A, Committee of Supply — for the information of members, ongoing estimates for the Ministry of Transportation. Second Reading of Bills UTILITIES COMMISSION AMENDMENT ACT, 2008 Hon. R. Neufeld: I move that the Utilities Commis- sion Amendment Act, 2008, be now introduced and read a second time. I am pleased to present the Utilities Commission Amendment Act, 2008.

The purpose of these amend- ments is to ensure that the Utilities Commission Act is consistent with the B.C. energy plan and that our en- ergy security and conservation goals are met. On February 27, '07, the government's new energy plan was released. The B.C. energy plan places the province at the forefront of environmental and eco- nomic leadership. Our government's vision is for a thriving province with a globally competitive economy built on strong environmental management and re- duced greenhouse gas emissions.

The amendments that we are proposing today align the act with the B.C. energy plan objectives and will encourage public utilities to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, pursue energy co nservation and efficiency, produce and obtain electricity from clean or renewable sources, develop energy tr ansmission infrastructure and capacity to meet customers' needs, and leverage innovative energy technologies. These goals will be considered as part of the British Columbia Utilities Commission's public interest test when it makes decisions about utility plans, projects and supply contracts. They will help B.C.

Hydro and other utilities reach their conservation targets and combat climate change. The amendments will also include new provisions for electricity self-sufficiency , generation of electricity from clean and renewable resources, installation of smart meters, B.C. Hydro's standing offer for clean energy projects of ten megawatts or less, and a new process for the BCUC to en sure that the province remains consistent with North American reliability standards and ensures that standards are in British Columbia's interests. [S.

Hammell in the chair.] Additional amendments create a new process for provincewide transmission planning and development to support economic growth and future electricity needs. We are also enhancing the utilities long-term plan- ning process to increase em phasis on conservation and energy efficiency. We are also taking action to reduce the rate increase burden on B.C. Hydro's residential customers by ensuring that the commission's 2007 rate- rebalancing decisions will not be implemented on top of other rate increases. As well, there are provisions to ensure the competitiveness of rates.

It is the commission's role to regulate on a cost basis. Government utilities, or the B.C. Utilities Commission, can take action to ensure that our rates remain among the lowest in North America. These amendments also include provisions that the commission can use to help streamline its processes. [1425] As stewards of this prov ince, we have the responsi- bility to manage our natural resources and develop innovative and sustainable energy solutions. Our goal is to ensure a secure, reliable, clean and affordable energy supply for all British Columbians for generations to come.

Madam Speaker, I am pleased now to move second reading. J. Horgan: I want to commend the Minister of Energy for his B.C. Hydro commercial there. In all seriousness, I want to thank him for offering me a full briefing on this bill tomorrow. I know that it wasn't his intention. I do want to give the minister credit for offering me that, and I know that he was genuine. Unfortunately, the House Leader isn't able to man- age this place with the same level of cooperation that the minister and I have on these matters.

So thank you again to the minister for providing the opportunity to get briefed tomorrow, and shame on the House Leader for not being able to manage this place in the interests of good public policy. I have a number of remarks to make. I'm delighted that the minister from the debt collector is here to keep me on my toes for an hour or two. I ' l l a d v i s e y o u , h o n . S p e a k e r , t h a t I a m t h e d e s i g - nated speaker on this bill. I hope everyone settles in for a good long chat about the lunacy of self-sufficiency in an integrated electricity market. That's what I would like to…. Interjections.

J. Horgan: I'll speak directly to you, hon. Speaker, in the hope that the brayin g hounds on the other side will stifle long enough for me to put forward some remarks, albeit restricted because of the lack of debate or — pardon me — t h e l a c k o f b r i e f i n g f r o m t h e o f f i - cials in the minister's department.

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10793 I call it the lunacy of self-sufficiency because this is a classic example of what Ge orge Lakoff, the great lin- guist from the University of California, has character- ized as the right wing taki ng language that used to mean something and twisting it to their own purposes and their own devices. The notion of self-sufficien cy is an important one for families. It's an important on e for communities.

It's an important one for the province, but not when it comes to a commodity which we have an abundance of and which we trade with our trading partners to our advan- tage — not just to our economic advantage but, I would argue, to our social and our environmental advantage. The notion of the energy plan, which states that by policy we must be self-suffici ent by a certain date into the future, makes no economic sense at all.

It's quite surprising to me and to thos e on this side of the House and to those I talk to in the business community that a government that professes to be a free market govern- ment is dictating to one sector of the economy what they must do by a certain date. I know that the member from West Vancouver, in his days at Harvard, would have just been shocked and appalled by that. I talked in this place last year about regulating the gasoline sector so that consumers could be protected from gouging by large multinational oil and gas companies.

The member from West Vancouver got up and shook and thundered at me that this was absolute lunacy and that the free market should be able to take care of itself. Why in goodness' name wouldn't w e w a n t t o d o t h a t i n a n a r e a w h e r e w e h a v e a c o m - parative advantage with respect to our trading part- ners? Why wouldn't we want to take the advantage we have with our regulated utility, B.C. Hydro, and trade on the market to our advantage? The minister and his acolytes take great delight in saying that we were net importers in three of the past seven years.

I have the data here from Stats Canada, and the minister is correct. When it was advantageous for us to do so, we imported power. We imported fish- flush power from Bonneville Power Administration in the United States, the minister will know. Those who have taken the time to educate themselves on these issues — maybe one or two on that side — will know that in the United States, under federal law, the B o n n e v i l l e P o w e r A d m i n i s t r a t i o n i s r e q u i r e d t o f l u s h , a t certain times of the year, water through turbines to protect fish stocks. That's good public policy.

It means, however, that power — clean, green hydroelectric power — is on the marketplace at a bargain basement price. What do we do here in British Columbia? What have we done historically here in British Columbia? We've purchased that power. We've imported that fish- flush power — not dirty coal, as the independent power producers would have you believe, but clean, green fish-flush power from the United States. [1430] It's advantageous to do so. Our trading partners are grateful. They're not just spilling the water. They're not just wasting this resource.

They're generating electric- ity, but because of the glut of electricity on the west coast of the United States and here in British Columbia and in Alberta, because the cost of a megawatt hour on the spot market is about, when I checked this morning, $45, it's advantageous for us to purchase that power. That's what we've done in the past. That's what we should be doing in the future. What this legislation does is it takes a misguided B.C. Liberal policy and goes to the Utilities Commission with the mother of all special directions.

I was a staff person in this place of public servants, and I remember my colleague opposite, the member for Peace River North, the now Energy Minister, railing against previous Energy Ministers for using special directions when there was a public policy initiative that the government of the day felt was important. Whether it was a social policy, an economic policy or an envi- ronmental policy, a special direction was created, and it was submitted to the Utilities Commission. Interveners would howl, as they should. Others would howl, as they should. The opposition howled at that time.

The minister himself was on his feet claiming that we were deregulating the sector and providing direction from the Premier's office. What this bill does, Bill 15, the Utilities Commission Amendment Act, is…. It's the mother of all special directions. It says to the commission: "Thou shalt approve all projects in the interests of meeting self-sufficiency by 2016." Anybody who comes to the commission with a half-baked idea, with the standing offer proposal of ten megawatts or less — no regulation at all. You got nine megawatts? You want to sell it? Done deal.

Let's have it, because we have to meet our target of self- sufficiency. I will go into some detail in debate at third reading on just what this self-sufficiency means in terms of total power consumed in one fiscal year, one calendar year. But the important thing for the public to remember, those who are watching at home, is that we use power at different times of the day. We have an abundance of power at different times of the year. Now, the independent power producers will argue that they are the only ones in the universe that provide clean, green power in the province of British Columbia.

We all know that our rese rvoir system, our two-river policy, the Peace and the Columbia River policies of the '60s and '70s, have put us in a positive position with respect to our clean, green generation. What the minister fails to recognize, and what his allies in the Independent Power Producers Association fail to recognize, is that there's only one place in Canada west of Saskatchewan where you can buy wind-generated electricity. Any guesses from the other side? Alberta. Alberta has wind farms. They're generating electricity using wind.

But when the independent power producers came to the Finance Committee — my colleague from Cari- boo North and I were on the committee — the independent power producers came and said: "If only we had run-of-the-river projects all over British Columbia, we wouldn't have to buy that dirty power from Alberta or that dirty power from Washington

10794 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 State." Wind power. Wind power from Alberta. We can buy it. We do buy it. It's advantageous for us to do so, and we do. The notion that the only power that's available on the spot market is either coal- or gas-fired generation is patently false. The minist er knows that. The govern- ment should know that. I think it would be incumbent upon the Minister of Enviro nment and the Minister of Energy to put their heads toge ther on this issue and be honest with the public of British Columbia. Be forth- right. Tell us the truth for a change.

Tell us exactly what the notion of…. Deputy Speaker: Member. Member, you will with- draw. J. Horgan: I'll withdraw that, hon. Speaker. My concern, however, was that our

interpretation of reality and the

interpretation of the other side is at odds. We have a difference of opinion on the facts. I don't mean to malign my colleague at all, but we do have a differ- ence of opinion on the facts. The minister and his colleagues are of the view that we need to be self-sufficient, not just self-sufficient in terms of total megawatts consumed annually, but the minister is proposing that we have an insurance policy. Is it 5,000 or 6,000 gigawatt hours of insurance policy?

That makes the policy even more absurd. [1435] Not only are we going to go about signing contracts, long-term power purchase agreements with micro- hydro companies that are head-officed in New York or Vancouver or who knows where…. Independent private power companies selling power to B.C. Hydro, not necessarily when we want it, not necessarily when we need it, but when they have the product. When do you think most of these small micro- hydro projects are generating electricity?

Well, they're generating electricity at the very time that we don't need it — when the snowcap is melting and our reservoirs are rising, and the price of the product is dropping like a stone. What this government is doing, by policy and now by law, by amending the Utilities Commission Act, is they're saying to B.C. Hydro: "You must buy power from one source and one source only, regardless of what the price is, regardless of the common eco- nomic sense of the idea, of the initiative, go forth and buy power from our friends." That's what they're advo- cating, not just by policy, but now by law.

The challenge we have on this side of the House, and all British Columbians in fact…. When we listen to the minister, whether it be the Minister of Energy or the Premier, talk about the importance of addressing our climate change challenges here and internationally, we are uniformly in favour of that. There's not a soul that I know in this place… .

Well, there may be one or two on the government side th at sit on this side of the House that might feel differently, but by and large, m o s t o f t h e p e o p l e t h a t r e s i d e i n t h i s L e g i s l a t u r e a r e uniformly supportive of reducing our greenhouse gas emissions. That's done. We voted on that. We had a bill come through this place last fall. We all stood in our places, and we supported it. It's not a question of "You don't like green power," as the Minister of Environment will often say.

This is the man who today, in questi on period, thought it was okay to put 35 kilometres of transmission line through Tweedsmuir Park. That's okay, because it's not near the Lower Mainland. It's not near his constituency like the Upper Pitt is. Tweedsmuir Park — who cares about that? We'll put 35 kilometres of transmission line through there. I don't know what's green about that. I don't know what's green about putting a small micro-hydro project in a pl ace where there's no de- mand, putting in a transmission line so you can bring it to the Lower Mainland and use it when you don't need it.

Buying it at $88 a megawatt hour, $90 a megawatt hour…. Projections are that the next call, the call in 2008, will see upwards to $110 a megawatt hour for independent power — $110 a megawatt hour. We can buy it on the spot market for 45 bucks. That's a windfall profit. For who? Is that money coming back to the Crown in form of a dividend from B.C. Hydro? Absolutely not. In fact, we had a debate in this place yesterday on Bill 2, the Budget Measures Implementation Act, where the debt cap for B.C. Hydro has been eliminated.

Now they're just going to keep going through the roof in te rms of their capital costs, whether it be to build transmission lines to small, iso- lated IPPs up and down the coast, to send 10, 20, 15, 25 megawatts of power to the Lower Mainland at a time w h e n w e d o n ' t n e e d i t , a t a c o s t t h a t w e s h o u l d n ' t b e paying. That's B.C. Liberal policy. It's bad enough that it's B.C. Liberal policy. With Bill 15, it becomes B.C. Liberal law. I know we'll get into greater detail after I've had the benefit of the brief- ing from the minister's very capable staff.

We'll have a better understanding of

part 3, the "Energy Security and the Environment" section, but as I look at it now, it says that by 2016 calendar year we must achieve elec- tricity self-sufficiency according to a prescribed criteria. Well, I'm very anxious to hear what that prescribed criteria is. If it means economic common sense, I might sup- p o r t t h a t . I f i t m e a n s t h a t t h e r e i s n o o t h e r w a y , n o other mechanism, for us to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions by electricity generation, by all means, I will support that.

But today 90 percent of the electricity we use in British Columbia is generated from hydroelectric power — 90 percent. They're prescribing that in law now. It's been policy. It's been covenant. It's been conven- tion in B.C. since the 1960s, but we have it now in law. That may well be a good thing, because future gov- ernments, like this government, may well sign power purchase agreements with coal companies. T h a t ' s w h a t t h i s g o v e r n m e n t d i d . T h e y d i r e c t e d B.C.

Hydro, through a call for proposals, to listen to the private sector, to hear from the private sector on how best to generate electricity in the 21st century. Two projects came back, were signed and approved to burn

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10795 coal in British Columbia — one in Princeton and an- other one up in the Peace, in the member for Peace River South's constituency. Not so clean, not so green. So we've amended the B.C. energy policy. We've amended it now so those projects are not likely to pro- ceed, but in estimates I'll have a delightful time, I'm sure, talking to legal counsel at B.C. Hydro about just what that's going to cost the ratepayers.

How much is it going to cost us to get out of the coal contracts that were signed by this government, not one year ago but two years ago? [1440] What's that going to cost us? Any ideas, hon. Mem- ber? I have no clue, but I'm sure that there will be capable staff from B.C. Hydro there to explain it to me. The other issue that troubl es me about this mother of all special directions is the smart meter section.

Now, for those at home and those in this Legislature that aren't aware of what a smart meter is, this is a gimmick or a theory that is a time-of-use meter so that residents, users of electricity, will be able to look at a meter on their wall, as you would a thermostat in any- one's home, and measure, at a particular time of the day, how much electricity you're using. In principle that sounds like a pretty good idea. An Hon. Member: For grow ops. J. Horgan: For grow ops. Yeah, well if you're using a lot of electricity, you're going to want to know at what time of day you're using it most.

That could well be true, hon. Member. In principle, in theory, as we talk about this over a cup of coffee or at a bar or wherever we might gather to talk about important issues of the economy and the environment, it makes a little bit of sense. It makes sense to talk about smart meters. But let's probe down a little bit. Let's go a little bit deeper on the notion of testing how much electricity we use at any given point during the day. Smart meters, by B.C. Hydro's reckoning, will cost $900 million to install in residences across British Columbia where B.C.

Hydro is providing electricity — a $900 million expen- diture by the Crown corporat ion, with no regulatory oversight. The B.C. Utilities Commi ssion requested that a business plan be put before that body so they could determine, through rigorous debate, interveners com- ing and presenting their ca se for and against smart meters — a business case, which this government often lauded as the most important part of their agenda as government…. "We'll have a business case for every- thing we do." Well, here we go — $900 million, a little tiny thing on your wall at home telling you how much electricity you're using.

Think about that: four million people in British Co- lumbia, all those households having little smart meters, $900 million to put those into everybody's house. Is that a prudent investment in a time when we're trying to constrain our carbon dioxide emissions, when we're trying to constrain greenho use gas emissions? Is it prudent to spend $900 million so that we know we're using electricity? I don't know about you, hon. Speaker — I'm the Energy critic. I've been doing this job for a couple years. I used to be involved in the power sector in the past.

I know a little bit about it, but I go and look at my meter outside my house, and I can't tell you what's going on there. I haven't got a clue. There's a thing spinning around really, really fast when I'm doing my laundry, not so fast when I'm not doing my laundry. Most people like to think of their electricity coming out of the wall when they need it and going off when they flick the switch. I don't think it's appropriate for us to say to most British Columbians that they need to have a PhD in thermal mechanics to deal with their electricity use.

We haven't done that in the past; I don't think we should do it now. So the notion of smart meters…. Al- though it sounds like a good idea, is that the best way to spend $900 million? It might be. It might be. The beauty of the Utilities Commission, unfettered by the firm hand of a government that has an ideological bent…. The advantage of the Utilities Commission is that we could have that debate. Reasonable, thoughtful, articulate people debate this — people understanding thermodynamics, economics an d regulatory processes. We have hearings. Briefs are submitted, and thoughtful people look over those briefs.

Informed individuals rule and deliberate on evidence, and they pass judgment. That has served us very well. It certainly served the people of Kitimat very well last year when the Utilities Commission rejected a power purchase agreement — a power sales deal, a gimmick, a scam — between Alcan, the government of British Columbia and B.C. Hydro. Nobody complained about that. Certainly, there was rejoicing in Kitimat.

There was an independent body charged with deliberating on the facts, charged with listening to both sides of an argument and telling the public what was in the best interest of ratepayers — those who are dependent on electricity for heat, for light and so on. This bill removes that oversight and imposes — in fact, hands over to the minister — extraordinary pow- ers of regulation unseen in our history. This govern- ment is always happy to say it never happened in the history of B.C. Well, it's happening again today, but it's the wrong kind of history we're making today.

This bill gives the Minister of Energy more power than he should have. If he thought about it, he'd probably reject it. If he were sitting on this side of the House, he cer- tainly would. [1445] If our positions were changed…. When I'm doing my due diligence as a critic, I like to think: "What w o u l d I d o i f I w e r e s i t t i n g i n t h e m i n i s t e r ' s c h a i r ? " I think that's a reasonable thing for us on this side of the House to do. Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition has a responsibility to look at every issue with an eye to what's wrong with it. In th is case, nothing could be simpler.

With respect to this bill, there's no easier job than to say: "Minister, you' re on the wrong track." I'm quite happy to stand here in this place to do it, and I

10796 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 have a number of my colleagues who will be joining me in that today. Smart meters, 900 million bucks. No oversight. No business plan. That's going to hit the bottom line for all of us in this place, for everyone in our constituency who depends on electricity, and I don't think there are too many who don't. There are certain parts of the province that aren't serviced by B.C. Hydro, but by and large, those that are dependent on our public utility will be paying more as a result of this legislation, and I think that's wrong.

The notion that we have theories that we want to test in the public domain — I think that's reasonable. I think that a corporation the size of B.C. Hydro that's providing such an important service to all of us here, whether we be in industry, whether we have a com- mercial venture, whether we have a residence that requires heat through electricity or, certainly, for light…. We need to test our theories. What's the best way to go? An Hon. Member: Guinea pigs. J. Horgan: Guinea pigs. Well, should we be decid- ing those issues in this place? Should we be deciding what's in the best interest of ratepayers here?

I don't know about that. I think certainly I have — and I'm going to proba- bly be chastised for this — some confidence in the Min- ister of Energy. He has been doing the job for seven years. You've got to pick something up over that pe- riod of time. I think he's doing the best that he can, but I think he has forgotten, with the trappings of office, the importance of testing your theories.

The value of the Utilities Commission to all British Columbians is that thoughtful interveners bring for- ward arguments against positions that are wrong- headed, or they bring forward positions in support of initiatives that will preserve and protect this natural resource. A body of impartial individuals deliberate on that, render their judgment, and we proceed. It served us very well, and I don't know why in the world we'd want to change it now, unless we were driven by politics and ideology — and no one better than the Minister of Enviro nment to be driven by poli- tics and ideology on these matters.

He talks about clean, green energy. He talks about dirty power ex- ported from other locations. Dirty power — bad thing. Net importers, net exporters. I want to put that myth to bed, because what the government has done is create a myth that we're starv- ing for energy. If we're not careful, at six o'clock to- night we're not going to have enough power to turn on the lights. Heaven help us in British Columbia.

The envy of North America, wi th our hydroelectric abun- dance, is somehow on the precipice of falling into a dark grotto, never to return again unless we have in- dependent power producers generating little tiny chunks of power at a time when we don't want it, at a price that we shouldn't pay. But that's the ideology that drives these people. They've created a myth that we have a problem, and then they fabricated the least attractive option to solve that problem.

If we are short of energy, why w o u l d n ' t w e b e c o m i n g u p w i t h m o r e c r e a t i v e w a y s than just saying to a bunch of speculators from Howe Street: "Hey, have you bought up your water licences yet? Because we need a couple of megawatts here and a couple of megawatts there"? Run-of-the-river in and of itself in certain locations is not a bad thing. I know the Minister of Environment will quote that back to me, I'm hopeful, because I think that's true.

The notion that we create small pockets of energy where we don't currently create it to provide a market that's close to that source makes a lot of sense. People talk often about the northwest. I know my colleague from Skeena will have some comments on that, and my colleague from North Coast. People talk about displacing diesel generation in the northwest, and that's a laudable goal. There are some opportunities for run-of- the-river in the northwest that make sense because you're not building a lot of infrastructure to get that power to where the demand is.

So run-of-the-river can be a useful tool in the arsenal of opportunities available to B.C. Hydro to provide electricity to ratepayers in British Columbia. I certainly will support that initiative, and many of my col- leagues will support it as well. Where we run off the rails is the mantra and the mythology that this is the on ly solution. By saying that a project of 150 megawatts halfway up the coast with massive transmission infrastructure to bring it down to the load centre is somehow good electricity policy is just false.

It's just false, and the minister knows that. [1450] There are opportunities for micro-hydro that make good economic sense, good environmental sense, but every single initiative that comes forward is not always a good initiative. That's why the commission's there, and that's why we need it to be independent, at arm's length and unobstructed by policy directions such as are outlined in this piece of legislation. The other challenge that I think the minister will have in selling this to the public…. Again, as I com- mented on his introductory remarks for second reading, it was right out of a B.C. Hydro commercial.

I think that the one thing that can be said for the B.C. Liberals is that they've got the messaging down to a science. I guess if you can hire some of your friends in the best advertising firms in North America to come and sell your product, it's not a surprise. They stick with the messa ge. They're iron on the message. No matter what the facts are, no matter what the arguments might be, the message is the message. "Independent power is the way to go. Run-of-the-river is clean and green. Not a millimole of greenhouse gases will be emitted by any of these projects" — which is also patently false. Interjection. J.

Horgan: A millimole is a very small amount. You'll recall that the Premier said that a molecule of

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10797 greenhouse gas was too much, in the throne speech. Actually, it was the Hon. Steven Point who said it at the behest of the Premier. But if we're worrying about molecules, I think we should worry about millimoles as well. The notion that somehow these so-called clean, green, independent power producers up and down the coast and in the Interior are not generating environ- mental havoc is also patently false. Road construction.

Road construction requires you to cut down trees, requires you to use the large equip- ment which is usually run, at least where I always worked, by machinery that's driven by gasoline, by diesel, by carbon-based fuels that are emitting GHGs into the environment. You're making a road. You're creating a footprint. You're emitting greenhouse gases. Transmission lines. What do you need to do that? Well, you've got to cut down some more trees. You're reducing your carbon sink.

You're not able to sequester the carbon in your forest base because you're cutting it down to put a transmission corridor, and you're going to require greenhouse gases to be emitted from the equipment that's needed to string the wires, to fabri- cate the metal, to put in the giants that will storm down the coastline to provide electricity to small hamlets up and down the coast. If it were only for the small hamlets, it would make some sense, but to generate electricity so far away from the load centre and then tran smit it at a time when you don't need it, at a price that you shouldn't be paying, is folly.

I wish that the minister and his government would admit to that now so that we could have a vig- orous and constructive debate on the energy future of British Columbia. We've talked in this place about a number of op- tions available to us. We've heard about biomass, and I certainly am excited about exploring that opportunity. Again, my colleague from Cariboo North knows a good deal about that in the forest sector and how that's going to help stabilize our energy needs now and into the future. We've talked about micro-hydro.

We've talked about wind power generated in Alberta but not generated here in British Columbia. Again, an opportunity that I think we should explore. Should there be private sector involvement in that? Absolutely. Who should control the power at the end of the day? The people of British Columbia. Where should the dividend from generating electricity and selling it on the open market, whether it's transmitting it to the south…? Where should that benefit come? Back to the people of British Columbia.

If the government wants to walk its walk instead of just talking the talk, it should today recall the down- stream benefits. They should do that today. Some 1,100 to 1,400 megawatts of clean, green electricity being generated in turbines on ri vers in Washington State that belong to the people of British Columbia as a re- sult of the Columbia River Treaty — 1,400 megawatts, just like that. Bring it back. If we have a problem, if we're in deficit now and we need the power, what could be better than that premium product that we get sweet dollars…. Not B.C. Hydro but the province of B. C. gets very, very good money.

I think that in the budget documents it said $350 million. Let's forego that revenue and bring back that green power. That's a solution right here, right now. Interjection. J. Horgan: Well, you've got to make choices, Minister. You think smart meters could go to health care? What about the $900 million to impose those? Can't have it both ways. [1455] If our net import situation is troubling to the minister, if the Premier feels that we can no longer countenance this, stop selling electricity to the United States. Don't let a gigawatt leave the place. Put the walls up around the bor- der.

Nothing comes in; nothing comes out. That's not the plan. It would be insane to do that. Integrated economy. Integrated marketplace. We are the top dog when it comes to electricity generation on the west coast of North America. Why would we encumber ourselves? Why would we say to B.C. Hydro: "Don't do it this way. Do it that way because we know better"? An Hon. Member: It's a sellout. J. Horgan: It's a sellout. That's exactly what it is. What they couldn't privatiz e in the front door, they're doing by stealth. As we restrict the ability of B.C.

Hydro to generate their own sources of new energy supply and rely exclu- sively on small projects that are inefficient, uneconomic and not generating electricity when we need it, we're crippling a Crown corporation that should be driving our economy, should be dr iving our quest for green- house gas reductions. The mini ster and I agree on that. B.C. Hydro should be at the vanguard of our initiatives to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in British Columbia. So why wouldn't you let the managers manage? Why wouldn't you let the experts do their jobs once they've tested their theories at the Utilities Commis- sion?

Why wouldn't you say to them: "Go to the com- mission, as you've done in the past, and make your case"? If it's a sound economic case, if it's a sound case for a generation of electricity at the lowest cost and in the best interest of ratepayers, it will fly through. Why do we have to put, in policy and then in law, a requirement that they must only buy from one source by a date certain in the future? It makes no sense at all. If the people on that side of House shook their heads just for one minute, they'd co me to that conclusion as well. Isn't that right? G. Gentner: Too many millimoles over there. J.

Horgan: I think millimoles might be unparlia- mentary. We might have to get that checked by the Clerks' table. I don't know if the Clerk wants to look into that or not. Millimole.

10798 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 G. Gentner: How about a crock of millimoles? J. Horgan: A crock of millimoles, yeah. That's a lot of millimoles. You can fit a lot of millimoles in a crock. We're not prepared to stop exporting electricity to the United States, but we are saying to B.C. Hydro: "Don't buy it from the United States. We want you to keep selling it at a premium profit, but we certainly don't want you to be buying any of that stuff." None of that fish-flush power. None of that wind power from Alberta. I'm making an extreme argument here, and that's the nature of this place.

I do fully appreciate — and both ministers will tell me — t h a t w e d o b u y p o w e r that's generated from coal-fired plants. We do buy power that's generated from natural gas plants on the west coast of the United States. However, if that's such a big problem, will the min- ister stand here today and say that we're not going to sell them any more natural gas? Where are they getting the gas that they're burnin g in these combined cycle plants? They're buying it from us. We're pumping it out of the Peace country as fast as we can drill the holes, and the minister knows that.

I support that, be- cause that's paying for health care and education in British Columbia. So we're saying that it's okay to drill a hole in the ground, bring it up and pipe it to United States, but woe betide if you're going to buy any electricity that might generate from the source. I don't know. I don't know what David Suzuki would say about that. He doesn't talk to me, and that 's actually quite all right with me. I don't know if he's on the mailing list of the Minister of Energy. I don't think he is either.

If we're going to sell the st uff, if we're going to drill it up, put it in pipes and sell it to the Americans, why wouldn't we want to buy th e end product? We dig up coal in the northeast. We dig it up in the southeast. We send it over to Asia — to Korea, Japan and China. They use it to fabricate steel that comes back and drives our economy in the Lower Mainland. That's a good thing. It's all good. But there are greenhouse gas effects from that — a huge responsibility there.

If we're going to be serious about climate change, maybe we might want to contem- plate — perish the thought — restricting our exports of natural products that generate greenhouse gases. I don't see that in the plan. Maybe it shouldn't be. The minister and I will probably have a discussion about that off line, but that's certainly not what we're advocating on this side of the House. But if we're tak- ing arguments to the extreme, which we are doing with respect to self-sufficiency in electricity, then maybe we ought to contemplate these other issues as well.

I would argue that the net effect of our exports of natural gas and our exports of coal has a far greater impact on climate change than any of the power that we might produce in off-peak times from the United States or from Alberta. [1500] If we're going to take a firm stand on these issues, let's be honest about it. Let's be upfront with the public. I think they expect nothing less from us. I certainly think that I was sent here to be honest with the people in my community, and I call a spade a spade. I'm okay with that. My colleagues seem to be okay with that. My constituents, so far, seem to be okay with that.

So if we're going to be real about these issues, let's be real about it. Let's not pretend that amending the Utilities Commission Act to en sure that our friends in the independent power-producer sector will get a free ride. The standing offer provisions, for example…. The minister will maybe have an answer to that at commit- tee stage. We'll have to see. But as I read this act, without the benefit of a brief- ing from his staff, the stan ding offer provisions mean that any power producer under ten megawatts can just approach B.C. Hydro and say: "I've got some power to sell.

Do you want to buy it?" And they say: "What's the price?" "This is the price." "Deal." No regulatory over- sight; no assessment of the impact of the environment. Independent power projects today, if they're under 49 megawatts, don't have to go through the environ- mental assessment office. Why are we not changing the Environmental Assessment Act to capture micro-hydro projects under 49 megawatts? If you're going to walk the walk, walk the walk. Don' t say: "We're the greenest people on the planet." Prem ier Green Jeans stands up and says: "I've got all the solutions right here. I'm going to be self-sufficient.

I'm going to buy from my friends. I'm not going to buy dirty power. I'm just going to ex- port it all to my trading partners in the Far East, in the American southwest." Hypocrisy. Call it what it is. If you're going to do the deal, if you're serious, if you're really committed to greening up, green up. Don't pretend you're doing it. Don't impose restraints on the Utilities Commission so that they can't adequately regulate an industry that has been, by and large, regulated in the interest of ratepayers — in the interests of British Columbia.

A $900 million expenditure for smart meters — no oversight; no business plan. It's the minister's pet pro- ject, perhaps. It's the CEO at B.C. Hydro's pet project, perhaps. Now it's just going to go running through, because it's in legislation — codified for all time right here in Bill 15. G. Gentner: Are they digital? J. Horgan: Are they digital? I don't know. I assume they are digital. At that pr ice, you'd like to think that you're getting the best technology possible. They may work. I don't want to belittle the technology, although my colleague from Delta North makes a good point.

I don't want to belittle the technology, but let's test it. I'm not an expert. I know the memb er from Penticton over there is not an expert. But I know where experts re side. They reside at the Utilities Commission. The interveners that go time after time, hearing after hearing, defending the public inter- est know what they're talkin g about. They have access to professionals and individu als who know this stuff.

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10799 Why wouldn't we want to avail ourselves of that in the interest of good public policy? Interjection. J. Horgan: It's a Blu-ray. We're going to get a Blu- ray smart meter instead of a DVD smart meter. That's going to be the solution. I'm nearing the end. I know that will sadden mem- bers on the other side. I just wish.… Interjections. J. Horgan: I've just been enco uraged. I'll carry on. With respect to the standing offer provisions….

It's been so long since I've seen the member for Yale-Lillooet that I'm surprised he doesn't want me to talk a little bit longer. When the minister talks about being a net importer, he fails to do the math. Again, I won't trouble the House with the matrices here. But when we talk about mega- watts in and megawatts out, that's an apples and apples comparison. We're buying apples when they're really, really cheap, and we're selling apples when they're really, really expensive.

We're not at a net export deficiency when it comes to dollars and cents, and that's something that I know all constituents of mine understand, because those on that side of the House keep taking dollars out of their pockets, whether for ferry rate increases, B.C. Hydro increases, ICBC increases, MSP premium increases. You can't go camping without paying more money now. Our friend Randy Ranger from Chilliwack there has just bumped up the cost of renting a tent pad in parks across British Columbia. [1505] People understand dollars and cents. We're selling electricity, making lots of money.

We're buying it and not spending it too much. What could be wrong with that? Free enterprisers on the other side, unite. Join with me. Capitalism rules here. We're doing pretty well by this game. The private se ctor is serving our energy component very, very well, and the beauty of it is, it's a publicly owned utility — has been for 40 years. Social Credit preserved that right. The NDP preserved…. Interjection. J. Horgan: Yeah. Hear, hear — from my brother from Kamloops.

My friend from Nelson-Creston pines for the old days when Social Credit — and Reform, I guess, to a certain extent; the minister may correct me on that — would pro- tect these public assets because they were beneficial to all of us. The commons — it was beneficial to all of us. The B.C. Liberal approach — the more corporate approach, the Howe Street approach — doesn't see it that way. It's all about stock options. It's all about bo- nuses for CEOs. Quarterly profits rule the day. How did we do last quarter? That's what's important to B.C. Liberals.

People in my constituency want to know what they're going to do tomorrow. What are they going to do tomorrow? Quarterly profits do not make good public policy. W h a t m a k e s g o o d p u b l i c p o l i c y i s p l a n n i n g t o e n s u r e that we have what we need now and into the future. The premise, the theory of self sufficiency, as put for- ward by the minister and in the glossy ads from B.C. Hydro, resonates with people , and it should. It should resonate with people. It's important. I know that my mom brought me up to take care of myself. Make sure you can take care of yourself and your family.

Everyone in this place understands that. My constituents understand that, but what's happened is that we've co-opted that language, that value that drives most people in British Columbia, and we've said that we have to be self-suffi cient in electricity. It's the most asinine thing I can possibly imagine. Sell the apples when they 're really expensive; buy them when they're really ch eap. That's farmer logic. My colleague from Prince George North will under- stand that. That makes good sense. The farm gate is doing well if you're selling high and buying low. Life is good. What could possibly be wrong with that?

My friend from Columbia River–Revelstoke is go- ing to join us in this debate. He feels exactly the same way. I think that as much as I've enjoyed myself…. I'd like to keep on talking just so those on the other side would have a better understanding of what a free mar- ket economy should look like. Intervention by the state, the heavy hand of the minist er imposing regulation on the free market — it's an outrage. My friend from West Vancouver can't contain him- self. He's on my side. He's with me on this. The free market in electrons. That's what we need. Let B.C. Hydro be B.C. Hydro.

Let them go forth and do what they've done for generations — provide clean, green, cost-effective power to our economy, to our citizens and to the province of British Columbia. N. Macdonald: I rise to speak about Bill 15, the Utilities Commission Amendment Act. Essentially, what this does is it gives a regulatory framework to the B.C. energy plans that we've seen. The position I would put forward is that those B.C. energy plans are some of the most disastrous ideas that have been put forward in the history of this province. It's not only me who says that.

Many, as they come t o l o o k a t t h i s i s s u e , would recognize that that is the case. This government came into power with a promise by the Premier that he wo uld not undermine B.C. Hy- dro, and it made sense to British Columbians that you would not do that. B.C. Hydro has provided British Columbians with a consistent, cheap source of power for a long, long time, and British Columbians have come to appreciate that service. When this B.C. energy pl an was put forward, it was framed very carefully by th e minister and by the pro- ponents of these ideas.

The language that was chosen was chosen very carefully. The language does not

10800 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 match the reality and tends to push people to a false perception of what the government is actually doing. What people need to do is take the time for any i s s u e s t h a t h a v e c o m e b e f o r e t h i s H o u s e . T h i s i s o n e that people should take the time to fully understand because it will impact them in a very fundamental way. It will cost them more. It will jeopardize our energy security. [1510] The government, when they put they put this for- ward, talked about things that I believe in, things that I think are important.

They talked about clean green power. That's appealing. That's something that New Democrats would find appealing and, if it was the case, would support. They talked about sustainability. They talked about self-sufficiency. When this first came forward…. Coming as a for- mer mayor of Golden, there are — the minister and I have talked about it — transmission issues. We're at the end of a line. Even thou g h we com e from an area that has produced a tremendous amount of power, we have breaks in power. For my daughter's graduation they went up to the ski hill, got the music started. The power was off.

We had the 50th anniversary and had all sorts of people in town. The power was off. It happens on occasion. B.C. Hydro does the best that it can, but we're at the end of a transmission line. Despite the fact that we have re- peatedly talked to B.C. Hydr o about changing that, it's not likely to change. That's a discussion that has gone on not only with this government but with previous governments, and on and on. When the idea of having some small private power facilities was going around, it was not as unappealing as the reality has turned ou t to be.

When I first heard about it, I thought that there were elements of that that could be good. Part of why this whole policy frustrates me so much is because it has so deliberately been put forward in a way that contrasts with the reality we actually have when we look at the policy. The B.C. energy plan is intended, in my view and in the view of many British Columbians, to serve private interests. Many of those private interests are very, very close to the B.C. Liberals. It does not serve the public interest. In fact, it compromises the public interest.

That is the fundamental pr oblem with this policy and with this bill that will provide a regulatory framework for the B.C. energy plans. Consistently this government looks after the corporate in terest, and they put that first. For ordinary people, we pay the price. In this pol- icy that is absolutely the case. I would invite people to read Liquid Gold; it's by Dr. John Calvert. It is a book that takes some time to get through. Mark Hume from the Globe and Mail read the book, reviewed it. His conclusion was that this policy is the worst piece of public policy in the history of British Columbia.

That was his conclusion. At no time has the minister attempted to go and challenge any of the assertio ns that Dr. Calvert makes. He has not because he cannot. Those assertions are either fact, or else the minister can contest them. But he has not contested them. The conclusion not only of me but of others…. Anyone who reads the book, who takes the time to fully understa nd what's going on, would agree with Mark Hume that it is the worst piece of public policy in the history of this province. Y o u c a n l o o k a t D r . S h a f f e r . H e w r i t e s Lost in Transmission. Again, it's an excellent document.

It's informative. If there was ever a time that people would take to go through and understand energy policy, this is the time. That document is there. It's on line. People should read it. There's other information on the Inter- net that you can search th rough. You can see movies. You can understand what exactly is going on here. What has the government done? Step 1, they cre- ated a sense of crisis. I think the member that spoke before me, the critic, explained very well just how false that sense of crisis was. There are and always will be energy pressures.

There are things that we need to think through and move through in an informed way. [1515] To be informed, we have to get information that is accurate and that properly lays the decisions in front of the public. What has consciou sly been done is that the public has been pushed in a direction so that it cannot make informed choices. The government has done that, the government-controlled board of B.C. Hydro has done that, and the Independent Power Producers of B.C. has consciously done that. We've heard a lot about scandal, but that is one of the biggest scandals that is in front of this House right now.

The public has not been given accurate informa- tion so that they can fully understand what is going on. You create this crisis atmosphere. You talk about a power shortage. You talk about the need to be self- sufficient. In my area we have some of the biggest dams. We provide power for two million British Co- lumbians from the region that I represent each and every day. It is a significant series of projects. We've lived with the implications of those projects, and we have benefited, like all British Columbians, from the wealth that those projects created.

The advantage that we have in British Columbia is that we have dams which can hold water and that we can produce electricity when we need it. In Alberta they have many forms of power production, but almost all of them are going to be dependent on certain conditions. They have wind power; it's true. But they depend a great deal on power produced by fossil fuels, and that's true. Now, these plants have to produce to meet the peaks. In Alberta they have to provide the energy that's needed for the course of the day. As you know, there are times during the day when there is a lot of energy used.

In the mornings and when people are having dinner, lots of power is us ed. Alberta has capacity for that time, but they cannot really ratchet it down in any way. So in the middle of the night they will have all sorts of power that they're producing that they have no need for and that they want to sell. And they will sell it very, very cheap. What happens is B.C. Hydro will store their water, and they will buy cheap Alberta power, or they will

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10801 buy cheap power from other ju risdictions that have to produce it in that way. It makes complete sense to do it that way. Then when there is high demand in western North America, they open up the gates, and they pro- duce lots of power. B.C. Hydro sells that for top dollar. That is not about necessity; that is just about doing something that is smart. It provides money for the province of British Columbia. It's just good common sense to do it that way.

When I'm in Revelstoke, at five o'clock the river is flowing beneath the Revelstoke dam, and they're pro- ducing power. In the middle of the night they cut it right back, and they save up that power. That's the advantage that we have with the dam system that was produced with, in retrospect, a tre- mendous amount of vision by people going back to W.A.C. Bennett. Throughout t i m e w e h a v e w o r k e d with that system. It is a great system, and it gives us a great advantage. So you create, using numbers, this impression that we have an energy problem.

We have challenges that need to be thought through, but it is not a crisis. Yet the government creates the idea that there is a crisis. Step 2 is that you preven t B.C. Hydro from building new facilities. Now, they are able to improve existing ones. They are putting a ge nerator in, in Revelstoke — good idea. But they cannot participate in the run-of- the-river projects. They cannot participate in building wind power. To do that makes no sense at all.

This is a company that is a Crown corporation and that has proven itself very effective at managing projects, has made tremen- dous amounts of money for the province and has served ratepayers very, very well. But the government steps in and dictates that that is what is going to hap- pen, and you say: "Well, that does not make sense." [1520] It only does not make sense if you think that it's being done for the public interest. It does serve certain private interests very, very well. That's a problem with this policy, and it's why people need to understand what's going on here. Step 3. You take sites that B.C.

Hydro ratepayers identified, and they identified sites on rivers all over British Columbia. We paid for that as ratepayers. We identified the sites. Then those sites were given to people for between $5,000 and $10,000. There wasn't a bidding system. I think most Britis h Columbians didn't know they were up for bid. There were a group of people that were able to go in there and grab them, and they're gone. Then you take those sites that ratepayers identified and go to step 4. B.C.

Hydro is forced to go into energy purchase agreements with individuals that want to build private power plants on our rivers on sites that we iden- tified. They are given such a lucrative contract that, in essence, we pay for the construction of those sites. So we pay. We pay to find them. We pay because it is our land, our river, and we give such good rates from B.C. Hydro that essentially we have paid to build these sites. They get a contract between 15 and 40 years. Step 6 is that when the 15 to 40 years are up, these producers are able to sell onto the North American grid, the western North Amer ican grid.

So when the minister says that this is about sustainable supply, he is absolutely and completely wrong in saying that. We will have to bid for that power against Califor- nia, against other jurisdiction s. So we have no control over that power in the long term. I mean, you just have to review what is going on here. We identify the sites; we pay to build something. We have no control when the contract period is over. We essentially give away the power, the right to that power. Does any of this make sense? It does not. It does not make sense at any level if this is about the public interest.

My argument is that the private interest of certain power- ful individuals has trumped the public good in this case. The other impact will not only be on the pocketbook, and we're feeling the pocketbook impacts almost right away. The other impact will be environmental. The envi- ronmental impacts need to be considered cumulatively. This is not just one project. These are projects littering the province. There is no consideration for the cumulative impact not only of the projects themselves but also of the roads that will go to these sites and the transmission lines that will go from the sites.

These are isolated sites. Let's remember who's paying for the transmission lines. We are — $600 million in the next short period of time. We are paying to connect to these private sites. Do people in rural areas have a say about whether these should go ahead? Is there any consideration for locals in rural areas as to whether this is something that makes sense? It doesn't. The minister signed an agreement with the Union of British Columbia Municipalities saying they would keep local government involved, but after that cere- mony was over, he chose to come in here with Bill 30,

section 56 — tore it up. Now we have a case where local government is com- pletely removed from zoning decisions on whether these projects should go ahead or not. So that is taken out. What I put to you is that it's a disastrous piece of legislation. If people want to understand it, they should take the time to read Dr. Calvert's book Liquid Gold. It should be a must-read fo r people. Read from Dr. Shaffer. All of the asser

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0402pm 05
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0402pm 05
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	cfadf2d65b65c4a91fdbb9226d4ba8e4f8a88342

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