Manitoba Hansard — 7 April 1969 (Sitting 44, 28th Legislature, 3rd Session)

28-3-44

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Monday, April 7, 1969 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR . CHAIRMAN: $2,332, 211. Resolution 103--passed • 1039 MR . RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Chairman, just before that item is passed, I want to raise one point with the Minister. The Department of Education has now apparently taken on . . . ' MR . CHAIRMAN: .. . make your speech on Resolution 104. MR . DOERN: 103, MR . CHAIRMAN: Well, I passed that resolution. A MEMBER: When? MR . CHAIRMAN: Right now. MR . DOERN: Five seconds ago? MR . CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, you were sitting there and he was standing there. MR .

CHAIRMAN: I didn't hear from him. MR . CHERNIACK: Well, that's true, but it's not his fault that you didn't see him. MR . CHAIRMAN: He can speak on Education Grants. MR . CHERNIACK: Pardon? MR . CHAIRMAN: He can speak on Education Grants. It's wide open. MR . CHERNIACK: He was waiting for 103, he says. MR . CHAIRMAN: I'm afraid he's too late. He can speak on Education Grants. MR . CHERNIACK: Wbat do you want to speak on? MR . DOERN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I was standing and I ... MR. CHAIRMAN: I know, but why didn't you yell out? I had my head down here. Wby didn't you yell out? MR . DOERN: Yell out what? MR .

CHAIRMAN: You can make the same speech on Resolution 104. MR . DOERN: Well, all right, if that's your opinion, then I will. MR . CHAIRMAN: There's no difference. MR . CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I think that we can go along with your request that we leave this to 104, but surely you can't say that because you didn't see him, that he didn't turn the room into a circus by yelling that loudly, that he had no right to speak on this issue. MR . CHAIRMAN: Well, I looked around and there was nobody rising. I give everybody five seconds of benefit, The Resolution 103 is passed and we're on Resolution 104. MR .

DOERN: Well, J' m not sure how this fits in, Mr. Chairman, but I'll make it under that item.

I wanted to refer the Minister to the Youth part of his new department and to ask him if he could attempt to outline just what is going to take place in that particular area, because he has given us some indication of the fact that they're going to assume the direction of some of the MIT and MIAA program, that they're going to handle the adult program, and they're also apparently going to do some research, but I would like to know whether they're going 'to, in fact, make a substantial change or whether we're simply getting a semantic change.

For example, the Alberta government has a Department of Youth which apparently is quite different than that what is intended by the Manitoba government. It's a department which is heavily involved in the recreation of the province, that has taken over the 4H program in the province, has developed a junior forest warden program and so on, a District Youth Service, handles summer school programs, tourist programs and so on, and also does such things as handle the interprovincial student_ exchange program.

There ate some 50 professional people involved in the program and they have an addi tional supportive staff of some lOO, an operati ng budget of almost $3 million which is truly for operations, so I wonder if the Minister could explain whether .this government is going to move into a wider area in terms of the development of youth.

The former Premier gave some hints a few years ago that he's going to refer certain matters to the Department of Youth, in fact, if I'm not mistaken, recommendations which also seem to be in line with the possibility of lower ing the voting age, but is this government simply transferring several items that were formerly held by other departments and calling this a Department of Youth, or is this goverDIIJ,ent going to pursue a dynamic policy to do something for our young people who are in some ways, in the opinions of their elders, in a--what shall I say? in a state of anxiety, a state of tension.

1040 April 7, 1969 (�. DOERN cont'

d) There's a lot of discontent among our youth and there's a cry for involvement. So I'd like to ask the Minister what direction this department is moving in, or are they simply going to make a slight change and stay there? �. CRAIK: Well, Mr. Chairman, when I introduced the estimates I mentioned that the purpose of renaming the Department was twofold.

One was that the Youth and Manpower Agency from the former Manitoba Development Authority was merged into the Department of Education and that was one of the reasons, which was the technical reason, but the substantive reason is that we realize that the segment of our society called "youth", that age group under 25 years of age, is one that requires the attention of society and of governments more than it has in former generations, lar-gely because of the increased knowledge that they have at a younger age through the advent of better educational systems and through the development of new media methods and techniques.

Now we're assuming a fairly large responsibility here and we don't at this point have a very well defined plan of action obviously because we haven't been in operation that long, but we do intend to examine what programs can logically be sup ported or undertaken that can assist this segment of society in their adjustments to the total population or the total of society. I can say that our first determination is that we shall not jump into programs and b9coJ:r..e operative in the sense of operating programs ourselves.

We know that there are a good many agencies that are attempting to carry out effective programs with youth, and one of the things that we will do is to work with existing agencies and to support them, support them morally and support them financially in their efforts to deal with the youth problem. We don't feel that government has as much mobility in dealing with youth and some of the undefined problems that exist as possibly do some of the existing agencies who do not have the government sort of tag written on them.

So for the present time we will be looking at the possibility of supporting organizations that do, in our estimation, carry on youthful and effective - or what appear to be youthful programs because many of them haven't been in operation long enough to know how effective they are. So at the present time our main concern is to maintain mobility.

We will have a small research staff which will be looking into this, the Youth and Manpower Research Staff, because the job opportunity picture and the training which we may have to consider through technical vocational and through other educational facilities may be an important part of the moves we have to take in the future to combat some of what is thought to be part of the youth problem.

Certainly guidance and counselling is going to be an area that we're going to explore pretty thoroughly to see whether adequate guidance and counselling are available to the segment of young people who are not in the regular school system. As far as recreation is concerned, we are aware, we've studied what has been going on in the other provinces. It's true that Alberta's youth group does have recreation under its wing and so does most of the other provincial agencies.

We are at the moment not involving ourselves or interested in involving ourselves in the recreation picture because this is being adequately handled by the present Department of Tourism and Recreation. So our main concern is youth in aspects that may not be related to those in recreation that are carried on by some of the youth agencies in Canada. Our main one is youth as it relates to educational opportunity, training opportunity, and in general, government's hand in assisting youth in areas other than recreation. �.

DOERN: Could the Minister indicate how many people are involved in that particular segment of his department, either exact or in general figures. �. CRAIK: Well right at the moment we're in the position of staffing for it. I can't tell you exactly here but we will probably have two people at the directorate level in addition to the Assistant Deputy Minister that heads up that section, and full time, probably four or five people initially. �. DOERN: Could the Minister also indicate how many people - - that's only four or five people out of a complete staff of what, two or three hundred?

What is the entire staff of your department running - in the hundreds ? �. CRAIK: What do you include? �. DOERN: The entire Department of Education and Youth. �. CRAIK: Well if you're including the institutes and total department, about 770 or 780 - 778 I think. �. CHAIRMAN: (a)--passed . ( b) (1) --

April 7, 1969 1041 MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, under (b) (1) - General Grants, this is an. area that we have discussed but I wanted to bring up an item that wasn't touched on before and I also wish to pro pose an amendment to this se<ition under Student Aid. I would like to point. out to the Minister something that has come to my attention that he may not be aware of, and this is the crying need for some greater recognition of the problems of students at the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre.

For example, there are at present at the centre some 425 students., and out of all these students, many of them who are attempting to get an education after having interrupted their education for several years, many of whom are married, many of whom have part- time employment, only 17 out of some 425 students have received assistance from the provincial government. I wish to draw this to the Minister's attention because the students at the Adult Education Centre are not eligible for assistanc.e under Manpower.

This apparently covers only vocational train ing and there is no assistance for academic students, There are also no loans available to these students under the Canada University Students Loan Act, and when you consider that their fees are $100. 00 for residents and some $400. 00, possibly increasing to $500.00 or $600. 00 for non- residents, this amounts to a fair amount of money, The result is that it's creating a hardship for these students and that a number of them are dropping out, Also, people who want to take training at the Adult Education Centre are taking night school instead of day school be-: cause it's the only way they can cope with the problem.

So I would like to draw this to the Minister's attention, this particular case, .._ Now we have gone over the question of the need for student aid and I'm not going to repeat all the statistics to the Minister who apparently denies that there are financial barriers or doesn't feel that students are deprived of a higher education because of their lack of funds.

I've tried to make the case that the average student is .unable to earn some five or six hundred dollars a year to complete his education, The tuition fees are a very big factor but yet amount to only about a third of a student's total costs, So to talk about eliminating or holding the line or reducing student fees is to only deal with about one-third of the cost that a student faces; there's still two-thirds in terms of room and board, living .expenses, insurance and so on, Mr. Chairman, I would like to move at this time an amendment to Resolution 104, sub

section 2 (b) (1) that the government give consideration to the advisability of increasing the amount of student aid to $2,832,600. Well, Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could just change that figure. Instead of 2. 8 million I wanted it to be 2. 4 million, which is double the amount indicated in the estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to say at this time that this motion is out of order, because the only motion that is allowed when a resolution is under consideration in Committee of Supply is that the amount be reduced or that the Chairman leave the Chair. All other motions are out of order. MR . DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, just on a point of order, what happens in the event that . you leave the Chair? Can we then move thit the amount be increased or doubled? MR . CHAIRMAN: Are you going to continue your speech or are you finished? MR . DOERN: I don't know. What do you think? MR . CHAIRMAN: (b) (1)--passed ; (2) -- passed; (c)-- The Honourable Member for Elm wood, MR . DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, under the University Grants Commission, I think one of the points, or some of the points that have been raised by people who have looked into this question, one of them that I would like to ask of the Minister is to explain whether or not he feels that it would be appropriate, or whether he agrees with the belief of some people that there should be a straight academic representation of the Grants Commission, Some people feel that although the deans are part of the academic community that they tend to be more closely involved with the administration and are not consequently giving the view of the mem bers of the faculty, and they have argued that there should be a straight faculty representation on the board, If I am not mistaken, I think that Dr.

W. C. Lorimer, the Deputy Minister him self I believe once �rgued for this, Another question is that there has been concern expressed about the Grants Commission in terms of the negative feature of the commission. The Commission apparently has the right to stop programs, to attempt to reduce duplication and to look at long range plans.

For example," if there was a plan to establish graduate studies say at the University of Br.andon and the University of Winnipeg, if they felt this was unnecessary or too costly they could prevent this kind of duplication; but on the positive side , they do not appear to have a planning function.

April 7, 1969 (MR. DOERN cont'

d) Whereas they have the power to stop, they do not appear to have the power or given the legislative approval or the direction of the Minister to look into long term plans. For example, to look into the possibility of establishing common admission standards and to make suggestions that would help our university community expand. So per haps the Minister could deal with those questions. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Chairman, on the two points the honourable member has made, first of all there is nothing prohibiting plain ordinary academics to be on the Grants Commission. They don't have to be deans, they can be anybody.

I suppose if it turns out that they are deans .•. MR. DOERN: Who picks them? MR . CRAIK: .•• but there is no regulation. They are picked for their individual capa bilities as are known to the people who are selecting them. In the particular case it turns out they are both deans, and probably they are both deans because they have proven themselves to be very capable people. But there is no bias against anybody other than a dean from going on the Grar.ts Co=ission.

So far as the programs are concerned, the Grants Commission, I imagine, does occupy most of its time analyzing programs that are put before it by the three universities to arrive at a decision as to whether they are to be supported at any given time. I could mention one area though that might fit into the category you are suggesting in planning. I think the Grants Commission is presently considering undertaking a fairly extensive study to examine library facilities for universities in Manitoba, and this could well fall into this area of planning that you are suggesting here .

So in specific areas such as that, which are not directly involved in the academic area in terms of courses, then I think they have a planning role that they can fulfill, but for them to get involved in planning of academic courses and so on, of course their legislation tells them that they are there to -- they have some jurisdiction over total programs but I can't foresee them getting into academic planning of programs other than the case where libraries or some facility, possibly a computer facility, something that may be of general interest to all three universities. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister whether the Grants Com mission has any intention, or whether it does in fact when it operates, get together with the three universities together at any time.

For instance, are the universities simply appealing to the Grants Commission and being dealt with individually or does the Co=ission deal with all three of them simultaneously, or does it occasionally get together with the three of them to discuss their programs, because it seems to me unless they're doing that on their own volun tarily then the government should certainly set up the apparatus so that this type of co-ordinated planning is being done, because otherwise it's a case of three separate universities going their three separate ways and being dealt with one at a time.

I don't feel that's the way to deal with the universities of this province, that the province is too small and there isn't enough funds. If you're going to take the negative feature, then I think you also have to take the positive side and attempt to co-ordinate. I'm not sure how much money the Grants Co=ission allocates for research or how much staff. At the moment it doesn't seem as if very much is being done at all.

There have been suggestions made by the academic community that the government consider establishing what might be called a triennial program of operating grants so that universities might receive their grants on a three year basis. Now they're getting it on an annual basis and this appar ently causes some problems in terms of planning. It causes problems for them in particular in terms of hiring staff.

I'd like to know whether the government is considering this now or whether the Minister has any ideas on whether we should go for more than a one year grant approval and go for a three year system or a four or a five year system like they have in the United Kingdom; MR . CRAIK: This is not under consideration at the moment, Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: (b)--passed. Education Grants - $126 ,1 86,300. Resolution 104 - passed. 3. Teacher Training. The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: With respect to Resolution 105, I wish to put two or three questions to the Honourable Minister.

The questions that I intend to put, Mr. Chairman, are really questions which I've put to the Honourable Minister before in somewhat broader form, but now it is my intention to make them refer specifically to the present resolution. Apparently the Honourable Minister had difficulty in understanding my questions previously, and now for the

April 7, 1969 1043 (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'

d) benefit of the Minister of Education I will have them refer specifically to this item. -- (Interjection) -- Perhaps, as was suggested, perhaps I should speak in Ukrainian again, Mr. Chairman. I might make myself more meaningful to the Honour able Minister. Mr. Chairman, before we pass this resolution, I would like the Honourable Minister to indicate whether he considers the present supply of teachers adequate. Now I know that he has made reference to a certain number of permit teachers in the field - I've forgotten the exact figure, lOO and some odd I believe it was.

I don't think it really matters, but there are still some permit teachers in the field, but whether it's lOO permit teachers or 200 teachers, this is merely a juggling of figures, putting in one extra student per classroom and that wipes out your need for permit teachers over the whole Province of Manitoba. I realize that when we get to some areas where qualified teachers aren't available, well you can't very easily do that.

Yes, here's the number of permit teachers, 1968-69: Elementary - it's more than that, a total of 366 for the current teaching year - 191 in the elementary and 175 in the secondary as per an Order for Return moved by the Honourable Member for Gladstone. Now again I repeat, Mr. Chairman, could the Honourable Minister indicate whether the program in effect now is such that would sufficiently staff the Manitoba schools?

Now when I sa y "sufficiently staff" I do not mean just merely providing individuals with a certificate per classroom, what I mean is does he feel that there is a sufficient number of teachers for a type of pupil-teacher ratio that he thinks is most conducive to offering the best type of education. I'm sure that the Honourable Minister understands what I mean.

You can have a pupil-teacher ratio of 40 to 1; you can have a pupil-teacher ratio of 10 to 1, but somewhere in between the two,- surely the Honourable Minister and his department has arrived at a figure that they would say: Now if we have this certain ratio, then we have achieved our objective; we have a proper balance of pupils to teachers. In other words, I'll repeat again for the benefit of the Honourable Minister in the event that he misunderstood me, do we now have a satisfactory pupil-teacher ratio or do we not.

If we do not have a satisfactory pupil-,teacher ratio, approximately how many teachers are we short of reaching that objective? The other two questions that I wish to put in connection with this resolution, Mr. Chair man, - well really it's probably one question divided and two parts to it. I'm wondering, Mr.

Chairman, whether the Honour able Minister has given any consideration to establishing, what used to be called at one time in the days of the old Manitoba Normal School, the "model school." It so happened at that time, for the benefit of the Honourable Minister and others who may not have been in close contact with what was going on in that field at that time, it so happened that near there was an emergency housing development which had come into being after the last war and it was the children of the residents of this emergency housing development who became the students of the so-called "model school".

There was a number of classrooms at that time - four or five or half a dozen maybe if I remember - wherein student teachers were able to enter and teach model lessons under the supervision of the classroom teacher who was assigned to that class and under the supervision of at that time the Manitoba Normal School faculty. Now this is nothing new, this is not a novel idea, Mr. Chairman. A school of this type is quite common on many education campuses. It need not necessarily be right on the campus.

Perhaps a similar school could be established elsewhere that the Faculty of Education would have at its disposal for two reasons: one, giving the students of the Faculty of Education to practice teaching lessons if and when the need arises, even if the time may be at a time other than set aside for practice teaching; and secondly- and this leads to the second part of my question, .Mr. Chairman, - in a school of that type experimentation in various teaching methods could be conducted, because I do believe, Mr.

Chairman, that one of the responsibilities of the Department of Education is to give leadership in the field of teaching methods, that it ought not be as it has been in the past and is now, that so much of the change and the innovation which comes about is initiated by school divisions, and much of it has been and the Honourable Mini ster is well aware of it, and if he isn't I'll tell him of one instance, I'll tell him about the Guidance and Counselling Program that we have in the Province of Manitoba, If the Honourable Minister would check back to five years ago, the origin of the Manitoba Public schools Guidance Program originates within the Winnipeg School Division, The first step in that direction was taken by the Winnipeg School Division at that time under who is now Professor Henry, At that time I believe he was -- well, he was connected with the Winnipeg School Division and his title I believe was Director of Research.

He organized a committee for

1044 April 7, 1969 (MR. HANUSOHAK cont'd) .•.• the benefit of the Winnipeg School Division to revise the then existing Guidance Program and that committee went to work. Word of it reached the Department of Education and the Department of Education then approached the Winnipeg com mittee and suggested to them that if you're going to do this work for the benefit of the Winnipeg School Division, why not do it for the province as a whole, which it was glad to do, and the committee was subsequently expanded to bring in representation from other parts of the prov ince and work proceeded.

But the point that I'm making, Mr. Chairman, is that the work was originated by the City of Winnipeg, and this is typical of innovation and change brought about in many fields of education. So may I repeat again, Mr. Chairman, for the benefit of the Honourable Minister of Edu cation so that he understands the question that I'm putting to him - and I'm putting to him three questions: Firstly, the question re the teacher supply; secondly, has he considered the advisability of establishing a model school for the use of the Faculty of Education students; and thirdly, or 2 (

b) if you wish to call it that, has he considered the advisability of the estab lishing this type of school which could be used for research purposes into new methods and techniques of education. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Chairman, I've written down five questions here. Perhaps I can answer some of them. Is the present teacher supply adequate? Well, I mentioned earlier that we seem to be reaching a point where they're adequate. Certainly at the elementary level; possibly at the secondary level; but I don't think that the teacher supply is satisfactory yet. Is the program operation adequate to supply the needs?

I assume that the honourable member is referring there to the Faculty of Education, and with the expansion that has been going on there I think probably we have reached this point or are very close to it. Some of the greatest growth at the university has been in the Fac,ulty of Education in recent years. The pupil-teacher ratio- I think he knows better than I do that there's no magic number.

I think Harvard University uses a one to one ratio if they could get away with it, and we in the public school system run at a number which may be 30 to 1, or more or less, and I don't think there's any magic number here that indicates what is the right number. Any consideration of establishing a model school ? We haven't any plans that I can inform the honourable member of to do this, and experimentation in the model school is one that he feels should be carried on. I would point out to him that it seems to me there is nothing incon gruous about a school division carrying on its experimentation.

In fact the place where you want to carry on experimentation is in the operations end of any organization, regardless of where it i13, so that the most logical place to experiment is in the school division itself or themselves, so I don't think that the last point can be well taken. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, does not the Honourable Minister feel that a member of the faculty of the university may have the desire to do experimental work in the field of education? Do you not feel, Mr.

Chairman, that a faculty member would wish to have the opportunity to do experimental work in the field of education, and do you not feel that he ought to be granted that opportunity? MR. CHAIRMAN: 3(a) (1)--passed; 2--passed, (b) (1)--passed; (2) --passed; Teacher training- $308,896.0 0 Resolution 105 -- passed. 4. Instruction- (a) (1)-- . The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Under

section (

a) the Directorate of Curricula I want to raise a question which is perhaps the whole framework under which the curriculum operates and that's some thing the Minister is going to be considering very shortly. He apparently is going to be approached by the Winnipeg School Board to consider the introduction at two Winnipeg schools of a revolving school

schedule system of three 70-day terms. In other words, we're now going to consider in the province, to the best of my knowledge for the first time, a concrete proposal to introduce a semester system, and although this can be done in quarters and so on, the Winn ipeg School Division is apparently asking permission of the Minister to introduce a three 70-day term schedule, and they want to introduce this at the R. B. Russell Vocational School and the Adult Education Centre. There are many advantages for this, some of which I'd like to go into in a moment.

But I would like to broaden this and to ask the Minister - I'd like to suggest to him first of all that he do in fact give appro val to this suggested program and that he also consider, when he's making his long range plans, the possibility at least of introducing a semester system at the

April 7, 1969 1045 (MR. DOERN cont'd) . . . . universities of this province, and possibly at the high school level as well. I'd like to draw his attention to the University of Alberta where three years ago their association of School Trustees asked the universities of Alberta to introduce a semester system; and the universities in turn suggested that if they were going to reorganize their program and their curriculum around such a semester system, that this would require or imply that the high schools do the same.

And so now in the Province of Alberta over half the high schools are experimenting with a semester system. The advantages to such a system are that tt apparently provides a great flexibility in the program; that it allows for a better utilization of the time and skills of educators; that it enables several exit and entry points throughout the year. This is surely one of the big advantages. Now we have a system whereby students begin in the fall and exit in the summer time.

This has certain problems in terms of a student who wishes to drop out, or is forced to drop out due to some family problem or some economic problem, can only go back at the beginning of the fall term. If he should want to interrupt his education for a few months, then he in effect may lose a year. When it comes to exit points, students are all graduating or leaving school in summer time. When it comes to summer employment, which is becoming a more serious problem then the students are - you know they're having consider able difficulty in earning money.

If we had a semester system they would be more evenly spread throughout the year and this would give them certain advantages. Also, such a semester system is apparently more adaptable. The public reaction in Alberta to their experiment of a semester system are described as very enthusiastic. The Board of Governors apparently approves of it, the Department of Education is behind it, the Home and School Association is behind it, the Chamber of Co=erce and so and so on. So, I would like to hear some of the Minister's view on that.

I would also ask him if he would comment on the Department of Education program in regard to the continuing problem of drug abuse. The Minister has spoken on this a number of times. He's described some of the program that is being used in the schools to combat or educate the students in terms of some of the dangers of drug abuse. But, nevertheless, when ever one picks up a newspaper there's always another headline explaining that the students are getting more involved with glue sniffing and drugs than ever before.

For example, in 1967, some 87 youngsters were brought before juvenile authorities for sniffing glue, and by October, or rather August of 1968, they had 160 cases and police estimated that by the end of the year they would have 250 cases. So going in one year from 87 to the end of 1968 and 250 cases you have a triple increase in glue sniffing. And I might also mention, Mr. Chairman, that just the other day there was a case on the news, I think out of our province, if I recall, of a young man who was found dead in his car from nail polish or glue sniffing.

In terms of general arrests in the Metro area under the Narcotics Control Act and the question of marijuana there were some 69 persons arrested in the Metro area in the first 18 days of 1969;

whereas in 1968 police and the RCMP drug squads arrested 127 persons in the entire year, 125 on marijuana and two on what might be described as hard drugs. So, there in 18 days you have roughly one-half of what you had in the entire previous year. So I'd like to ask the Minister whether he feels that his program of educating students or attempting to in some way enlighten or combat what can only be described as a growing drug abuse problem is adequate. Or whether he has any plans to step it up? MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Chairman, regarding the splitting up of the school year in a different fashion to which we do now, I haven't examined the proposal that the honourable member men tions from Division No, 1, but this may be part of the request that I had sent out to the various organizations asking for their comments on the way in which we do cut up the school year, and to ask for recommendations to see if there are different arrangements that better suit our modern times than the present structure of running from the first of September through till the end of June.

The thought here was that in asking the trustees, the Home and School Association, the Teacher's Society and the Education Ministers Advisory Committee, that they might come up with some suggestions whereby we could provide more flexibility in the school year. What we did was to, initially to say - 200 days, 27 1/2 teaching hours per week, how would you divide this up if you were starting from 0 and would you come up with the system that you have now? So, we've really asked all of these organizations for their opinions on it. Now, we've had some back but we haven't reached the stage yet of anything formal.

They have come back and said, well can we take it further, so we're in discussions on this. Now whether or not the Winnipeg proposal is their reply to this or one that they had been thinking about themselves for special

1046 April 7, 1969 (MR. CRAIK cont•d) • . . . cases of R. B. Russell and the adult centre, I don't know, but maybe it is something separate. At any rate, we are examinjng this from a fresh start to see if there are better arrange ments. For instance, we may find that, as we know from experience that possibly in Northern Manitoba, many of the communities where fishing is their mainstay of life, that they may wish to take off the time during the intensive fishing season and go to school at another time of the year, that is in the summer time, more than they do at some other times.

This might have to do with the spring break up and so on where they may wish to break off but not for so long at the Christmas break.

In Winnipeg the possibility may exist that in a large division or in a large Metro area, that you may want to have an elementary school that, for instance - or maybe even a secon dary, it depends, we're not far enough along yet to know - but you may want to have a school that operates during the summer months, but would allow the children to be off during January, February, whenever some people like to take a winter holiday instead of a summer holiday - which many people do nowadays.

So this is a possibility, to look at the feasibility of whether or not there are large enough numbers of people that would wish to do this. Now we're open ing it wide open and looking at it from a start; whether or not we're going to come up with a change or not, time will tell, but we will be examining this this summer with this committee that we have set up involving all the organizations, including the Advisory Committee, to tell us many things that maybe we should be looking at with more objectively.

With regards to drug abuse, we have attempted to help the school systems with regards to counselling on drug abuse and with advice, films and so on. Whether or nor our program is extensive is very difficult to assess. We will be expanding it, but at this point I can't offer the honourable member any more detailed information. We're concerned about it. We are involved in it. One of the great difficulties here is to assess whether or not programs are effective. MR . CHAIRMAN: (a) (1)--passed; 2--passed ... MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I want to ask another question there of the Minister.

In 1960 - I guess in '66 to '67, the number of students who were taking the general course was runn ing at about 11 percent or so. I don't think there's been too significant a change in the number of students who are involved in the general course. Perhaps the figures up to around 20 percent or so. I wonder whether the Minister could give us some information, or opinion on the department's attitude towards the success of the general course in terms of numbers?

The course is excellent and there have been a large number of students who are involved in the course, but I wonder if he could tell us whether he is in fact satisfied with the number of students who are in the course, or are being directed into the course? Some tea chers feel that the original target was that there would be perhaps 50 percent of all high school students in this course, and it was designed for them, and nowhere near that number are going in.

Can he suggest to us whether he intends to encourage more students to enter the course or whether he is in fact going to sort of be satisfied with about a 20 percent figure? MR . CRAIK: Whether we are satisfied or not, M:r. Chairman, about the best we can do is encourage the high schools and to some extent the population, through the parents, or the parents through general information distribution, convince them that the general course is a highly acceptable course for their young people.

Now to bring the enrolments up-to-date: en rolments in high school grades in total for the whole province, the General Course is 35. 2 percent; Business Education Course is 9. 3; Industrial Course 0. 7; Occupational Entrance 1. 3; and the total of those comes to 46. 5 percent. Those in university entrance course account for 53. 5 percent. So that in total the general is 35. 2 - it's higher in the urban areas than it is in the rural areas. MR . CHAIRMAN: 4(a)--passed. (b)(1) . . . MR . DOERN: Mr. Chairman, a very extensive program was outlined in a newspaper

article not too long ago. I'm not sure whether this is the right item to bring this under, but the Federal Government announced that it was going to initiate a multi-million dollar program that would benefit the entire province -- it's Operation Newstart. This was going to in particu lar benefit the people of Northern Manitoba, that it was going to bridge the gap between remote and urban living and that it would primarily benefit our Indian and Metis population. The Minister said at that time that he expected that the program would become a reality by Aprillst,

April 7, 1969 1047 (MR. DOERN cont•

d) and he said that they expected The Pas would be the home base for· the program and so on and so on. I wonder if the Minister could give us some information about this plan. It apparently means that the Federal Government is going to spend a million dollars a year and I wonder whether the program Is under way in Manitoba or when it will be under way? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Chairman, we expect to announce the appointment of the General Manager of the Newstart corporation very shortly. And by very shortly I mean probably within the next 10 days or so, and the board itself.

The program is well on the way to being finalized. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, we're 4(

b) are we? The question that I wish to ask of the Honourable Minister perhaps could have also been asked elsewhere but I'm going to ask it at this point because it's under this area that I feel that this is done. At the present time unemployed persons enrolled in training for t�e purpose of upgrad ing their working skills, their earning capacity, become eligible for assistance from the Federal Government. Is that correct? Or certain individuals anyway. And this a.Ssistance is related to one's needs on the basis of one's marital statUs. I'm wondering, Mr.

Chairman, whether the Honourable Minister and his department has given any consideration to -- now this has nothing to do with the expenditure of provincial money as such-- but has his depart ment given any consideration to urging the Federal Government to extending a similar benefit to this type or this class of student seeking further training or obtaining further training at the University level?

Because my understanding is this -- and if I'm wrong I hope that the Min ster will correct me-- my understanding is that to qualify for benefits of this type, one was pretty well committed to enrolling in a vocational education type of school- the industrial division of the Manitoba Institute of Technology and the like, Now, I fail to see the difference, Mr.

Chairman, between an individual who attempts to upgrade himself by taking a.trades course at the Manitoba Institute of Technology, or enrol-" ling at the University of Manitoba with a view to increasing his chances of becoming appealing to. the industry and hence getting a job and thereby earning a better income. And yet unfortu nately at the present time, Mr. Chairman, the same individual if he enrolls at the Manitoba Institute of Technology he qualifies for assistance of this type; if he enrolls at the University of Manitoba he doesn't. And my question is, has the Minister given consideration to this matter?

And if he has, and particularly if he is in agreement that this is an injustice to one type of individual - and there may be many within that type - is he in agreement that attempts should be made to rectify the situation, to make both eligible for assistance of this type- that is to say the student enrolled in a vocational education course and the student who chooses to enroll in a University course? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Chairman, I agree with the Honourable Member for Burrows that there may be some injustice that it does not apply to other forms of post secondary education in addition to the technical-vocational.

However, there's probably a much greater injustice than not having this support through Manpower available for university education, and that is for the group of people who have not had three years experience in the work force. This is the first problem that is necessary to overcome and this is the one that we have been pressing the Federal Government the hardest on in order that they might alter the regulations to help out with the people in that group that are forced to stay out for that period of time.

We haven't considered the support for people wishing to attend university a priority under the Manpower program, primarily because of the loan money that is available to them if they do wish to continue on with university studies. MR. HANUSCHAK: I take it that the Minister does agree that what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander?

I'm not in any way minimizing the need to look after the group that is most adversely affected, the group that is forced to stay out of school for a certain period of time, but the Minister will agree then, that if such a benefit can be eXtended to a · student seeking upgrading in one educational institution, then by the same logic, it should, or at least eventually should be made available to an individual seeking upgrading in another institution such as university? MR. CHAIRMAN: {Sections<P), lrj, and(d)were read

section by

section and passed. ) (e)(1)--passed ... MR. DO ERN: I'd just like to ask the Minister - there was a very small cut made under (e) (2 ) under the heading of Manitoba School for the Deaf. It seems that the trend is

1048 April 7, 1969 (MR. DOERN cont'

d) and it seems that the department view is to expand the services and I just wonder if the Minister could explain why in fact there was a slight reduction in the expenditures of that department. MR. CRAIK: The reduction is $4,950 and it's due to reduction of medical fees, reduced subsistence and reduced travel expenses. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Section (e) (1) and (2) was read and passed.)

Section f (1) -- passed. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, under the Directorate of Research I want to make a final comment. We now have a total budget of the Department of nearly $150 million and our total budget for research in the coming year is $103,000.00.

If you figure this out it comes to an amount of less than one- tenth of one percent and it certainly indicates that the depart ment does not have a true research branch, that there are people in the department- I remember a year or two ago putting in an Order for Return and the qualifications of the people in the department and their duties were outlined and they were nowhere near the type of staff necessary to carry out the kind of research that is needed.

If we're spending that kind of money it seems to me that we should spend a significantly larger amount of money on research, because it would seem that by properly researching some of our courses and some of the directions into which we're heading we could actually save money, or at least, if not save money, at least fully justify the amount of money we would spend on research. The Teachers' Society has deplored the lack of educational research and so have other associations.

For example, the Winnipeg School Board asked for a study and recom mended to the Provincial Government that a study be made about the possibility of having a proposed Children's Psychiatric Institute. Are we getting any research in that particular area? The question of community colleges has been raised many times and although Winnipeg would seem to be the logical place for a community college, -- (Interjection) -- that's right, we've heard that we're getting community colleges. We're years behind other provinces in this regard but the problem is that there is little action being taken.

The Adult Education Centre, for example, is growing by leaps and bounds, yet it's sitting in a very archaic build ing in downtown Winnipeg and the enroll ment is increasing about 100 per year but very little is being done beyond allowing the Winnipeg School Board to pay for that facility. But, for example, if we're going to place community colleges, we need studies that would be conducted throughout the province to determine whether or not they could be supported and also at what location they should be in. As I say, the Teachers' Society has spoken out on this issue.

I'd like to refer the Minister to the kind of research being done in British Columbia which we could and should be looking at. They're, for instance, studying the identification and training of educational administrators, school dropouts, counselling administration, school psychology, teacher aids, pupil achievements, and so on.

The provincial Department of Education has neither the means nor the staff to conduct surveys of this type, and although they give some support to the Manitoba Educational Research Council and a bit of money to the University of Manitoba, their Faculty of Education, we're simply not even scratching the surface; and to spend $150 million and to spend a very small amount of money on what looks like a research department it seems to me is an unwise move and could easily lead to large wastages of students' time and effort. So I'd like to ask the Minister whether he is satisfied with this kind of budget?

In fact, if my statistics are right, a couple of years ago we were spending almost exactly the same kind of money and it seems that over the last few years the budget has barely risen at all. I'd like to ask the Minister whether he's going to make this into a full research department or simply continue in a little that is being done at present? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, before the Honourable Minister gets up to answer the question, I would like to ask him whether he knows, and if he does, then he could give us the figures, how the amount allocated to research for the Province of Manitoba com pares with the amount annually spent or spent last year or the most recent figures that he has, by the Winnipeg School Division. And the Winnipeg School Division, you will know, Mr. Chairman, deals with only what - one-quarter of the school population of the Province of Manitoba? MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Chairman, I can indicate to the honourable members the projects that have been undertaken. One of the things that bothers me about - when you define some thing as research and then listen to the projects that the Honourable Member for Elmwood is I

April 7, 1969 1049 (MR. CR.AIK cont'd) • . . . is mentioning here, I'm not sure that they fall into the research category. It's always a problem defining whether something is research or whether it's develop ment or whether it's just a gathering of experience. But whether or not we're spending enough, I cannot tell the Honourable Member for Burrows, in comparison. We are making grants to the Division No. 1 for research.

In fact we're making grants to the University of Manitoba and Winnipeg Division No. 1, Teachers' Society, Manitoba Educational Research Council, and the Canadian Council for Research in Education. MR. DO ERN: Mr. Chairman, are those items included in that figure of $103,000 or are those in addition to ? MR. CR.AIK: They're included.

The research itself that we are carrying out is mini mal compared I suppose to the projects that we are in fact farming out, and this is probably a pretty good type of operation to carry on because there are people available, particularly in the faculty at the university to carry on this sort of research the same as is jione in Agriculture where the Department of Agriculture has its research done primarily by the Faculty at the university. And of course if you, I suppose, examine the Faculty of Education budget at the university you will likely find that a good chunk of its involvement is in research.

Now I don't know whether we compare favourably with the University or with Division No. 1, and I can't tell you eJCactly what we should be calling research and what we should be calling just plain development; but I do know that this group, small as they are, are doing extremely valuable work. One of the projects that we're involved in right now that is very important is a rationalization of our computer systems in Manitoba.

As you know, great expen- :-' ditures can go into hardware into computers with very little difficulty in this day and age and we're attempting to rationalize everything that is happening to determine whether we're col lectively: moving in the right direction, whether we should be supporting somebody more adequately or whether we should be using our systems at the MIAA more effectively, or whether in fact the university system should be something that is a total provincial system because a large part of the business community itself is quite interested in using these facilities.

There are great advantages in going to large ones and so we have been occupying a lot of the time' of our research people on this problem recently. Now whether or not we're expending enough here - the Assistant Director is coming on staff the first of July and we have programs lined up; we're moving and doing our groundwork. I think we're doing it effectively. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, the Minister gave us some general - well he broke down in terms of some of the areas that the money is being spent on but he didn't give us any figures.

I wonder if he could tell us approximately how much money the department is spend ing within itself and approximately how much money is being given to these other organizations. Is it half and half or what would it be? MR. CR.AIK: The research grants amount to $31,000.00. Out of that total-- for '69-'70 the research grants that we plan for these organizations amount to $31,000.00. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has said that he regards the work of his department as being minimal. Out of a figure of $103,000, some $72,000 is spent by his department.

He regards that work as being minimal, which I think is a statement of fact, and then he tells us now that $31, 000 is being given to various other organizations and he apparently regards that as significant. It's a very interesting co=ent that in one case they're spending double the money with a minimal effort and yet he somehow or other regards half that effort as being significant. That strikes me as being a rather flawed logic. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Chairman, I wasn't indicating there that the research that we were supporting at other institutions was more significant than what we were doing; I was saying that the work that they are doing, not through our research grants but through their existence as a Faculty of Education, far overshadows in size what we are doing in terms of personnel or projects.

I think that the honourable member would agree that when you form your curriculum committees to study curriculum and the research you do there from the people that you draw in to do it, from the teachers from the various divisions, the work that they do in these commit tees is research as well which does not fall under this research budget but falls under general curriculum. I don't know where you draw the line? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, it's very interesting to hear the Honourable Min ister indicate that some of the research work that is being presently conducted within the field of education is being done by organizations outside the Department of Education as such, namely, the university, various school divisions and the like. Now, you will recall, Mr. Chairman,

105 0 April 7, 1969 (:MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) .•..• my raised point earlier re experimentation with different teaching methods and so forth - and I don't know where the Honourable Minister draws the line between this type of activity and pure resea rch - but I do feel that there is a relationship be tween the two. Now, at that time or in reply to that question of mine, the Honourable Minister indicated that work of this type could perhaps be more efficien tly done by the various school divisio ns . Arid perhaps he's ri ght.

And even if he is right, and in view of the fact that there is a precede nt established for the Department of Education contributing toward the cost of resea rch ca rried on by various sch ool divis ions , would not the Honourable Minister also con sider experimentation with different teaching methods as part of the Department of Education's responsibility and assist financ ially those divisio ns undertaking experimental work with any new methods or techniques in the field of teaching ? My seco nd question, and this is a minor one.

The Honourable Minister had mentioned the matter of computers as related to this department . Now, he may know that - I' m sure he knows - that the Winnip eg School Division now makes use of this facility for the purpose of keeping attendance rec ords in the Winnip eg sch ools , which is of tremendous help and assistance to the teacher . And those that have taught school well apprec iate what I mean. At the end pf each month, at one time it used to take anywhere from 1 to 2 hours to balanc e the attendance register for the month.

Today this chore is minimized to the point of a few minutes time of rec ording the various types of absenteeism , full days , half days , lates and the like , on an IBM ca rd. This job can be done in a matter of minutes for a whole class at the end of each month. Is it the Minist er's intention to extend this service to all schools in Manitoba beyond the bound aries of the Winnipeg School Division ? MR . CRAIK: Well, first of all Mr.

Chairman , I think if the honourable-member has some spec ific proposals on experiments which he wishes to rec ommend that we'd be most happy to examine them, and look at them - have the staff which is much more capable than I am in judging whether these are good proj ects or otherwise, have them examine them and see if there's something that should be ca rried further. And with regards to extension of computer servic es , as I mentioned we have the study under way. Pa rt of the study we're undertaking is to see how we ca n maximize on the use of computers for the school systems of Manitoba. MR . DO ERN: Mr .

Chairm an, the Minister has mentioned that a lot of valuable re se arch is being done by teacher 's curriculum committees and the Manitoba Te acher 's Socie ty and so on, but one of the problems involved with this kind of work - I think the teachers are well qualified to do a lot of the basic studies and to also supply the raw data - but the question is who is to interpret some of this ? Who are the people with the skills neces sary to make proj ections and analyses and so on ? It strikes me that these are psychologists and soc iologists and urbanologists and people who are familiar with computers .

And these are the kind of people that often are lacking. We're doing a lot of the fundamental stuff but when we come to the cor elation of data and interpreting it and so on, this is where we fail to have the necessa ry staff. The department does not have this kind of staff and neither does the Manitoba Te acher 's Soc iety. So, I think a lot of this valuable groundwork that is being done is simply wasted , or it's not being properly utilized.

This is why we're urging the Minister to look into his depart ment, a department that is very small indeed and does not have the type of people nec essa ry to complement some of the work that is being done. MR . CHAIRMAN: ... (f) --passed. 4. Instruction $13,897,847. 00. Res olution 106 passed. No. 5 . . . MR . CAMPBELL : Mr. Chairman on 107. I would suppose that in the education department estimates that any item as small as $6 million and a quarter odd could almost be missed as a detail, but it's a pretty handsome item for Buildings and Other Projects .

I wonder is the Minister in a position to give us some detail as to just what is contemplated under this item ? What are the land acquisitions that are proposed ? What will the construction be ? The alterations and renovations , furnishings perhaps are small items but could we have the main ones ? MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman , while my honourable friend is looking up the answer to that question, perhaps he would be able to advise the committee as to whether or not it is the inten tion of the government to fulfill that promise that was made to erect 10 vocational schools .

In conside ration of the fact that there's a substantial - nearly a 50 perc ent reduction in this item - it doesn't look like we're going to move ahead with any great haste in the building

L 11.. I ,-" r -- April 7, 1969 1051 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd) ..• . of vocational schools in the current year. --(Interjection)- Pardon. Oh he's relying on federal grants. Well, maybe when he's at it then he could tell us what is the federal contribution now towards tecluii.cal and vocational schools, and how do we qualify for grants ? -- (Interjection) -- Yes , and how much of resolution No. 107 is actual federal money? I have before me. Mr, Chairman, the Daily Graphic from Portage la Prairie --(Inter jection) -- a fine publication my honourable friend, the Member for Lakeside says.

It is indeed, but what disturbs me is the headline- and this one incidentally is dated February 27th that's not too long ago,. 1969. It says "Tee Voc School out says Narvey". Harold Narvey, Chairman of the Portage Division School Board told a meeting of Trustees Wednesday night, of changes in the Tee Voc planning.

Reporting on a meeting Tuesday with a representative of the Manitoba Department of Education, the Board Chairman. stated that there will be three vocational schools in Manitoba run by the province, and " they are not interested in adding a fourth." Well, where are the other seven gone - that were promised ? --(Interjection) -- Well there are three - you got one. My honourable friend the Member for Selkirk says, "we got mine"; but we didn't get ours. --(Interjection) -- Yes , where are the other seven ?

This statement by Narvey,the Chairman of the Board is in quotation marks, which indicates that it was a change in policy by the government. So, surely my honourable friend can enlighten us on this subject matter. · MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, on the question of buildings.

Some time ago I had asked the Honourable Minister of Agriculture- he's not in his seat at the present time whether he is aware of the survey, of the report of the Federal Department of Agriculture dealing with the question of decrease in rural population in the prairie provinces, and the prediction if I remember correctly was that over the next 15 years, I believe it was, maybe less than that, by 1980, the rural population is to decrease by 50 percent.

The reply of the Honourable Minister of Agriculture was that this is not their figures, that he was not aware of this particular survey, nor did he put that much stock into this particular prediction, nor was his department really that actively involved in doing this type of a study. But I'm sure, Mr. Chairman, that the Department of Education is very anxious to know, to predict, to find ways and means of predicting what the population trends are, beca use after all the Department of Education does not build just for today or tomorrow or next year, but for many years to come.

When a school is built, surely it's built not to meet the needs of the people for the next 4 or 5 years, but probably for 5 or 6 or 10 times that many years. I would like to hear some comment from the Honourable Minister of Education, as to what he in his department see in population trends and whether the plans that his department has for the building of schools, for the acquisition of land for vocational schools, for the building of whatever types of educational institutions that would be financed entirely by the Department of Education and be controlled entirely or in part by the Department of Education ?

Are they the type, in terms of size, that would neet the needs in 10 or 15 years or 20 years time ? In other words, is this program in step with the population shift that we are experienc ing now? And secondly - I'm well aware, Mr. Chairman, that this item deals with buildings and other projects, but after all you don't build a building just for the sake of building a building. You build a building for the purpose of providing a certain educational program therein, and I'm sure that the Honourable Minister has certain plans for the type of educational program that will be offered within those buildings.

Is the type of program that these buildings are built for of a type that would be useful and meaningful to this large number of the population of Manitoba that is anticipated to move from rural areas into the urban areas wherein the environment is quite different from that in which they were born and raised? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Chairman, in regards to the Honourable Member for Lakeside's question, I've got a problem here .in that I can't give him the exact split on this - whether it's a federal-provincial split.

Included in this are the regional vocational high schools which are the biggest item, on which we expect in 1969 and '70 to spend somewhere in the order of $4 1/2 million. And included also are further expenditures at the Manitoba Institute of Applied Arts to complete the building there. They are total expenditures of the order of three million, four. The recovery on capital in both cases is 75 percent federal until a certain point and then, it becomes 50-50 split on the capital costs. I believe that all the projections we have for '69-70 are the 75-25.

So, the amount here of, according to my arithmetic - the total amount should

1052 April 7, 1969 (MR. CRAIK cont'd) .... be higher than that - but if he will bear with me, I'll get him the breakdown on that. But the largest chunk of the expenditure is the regional vocational high schools and the completion of the work at the MIT complex which is $3 1/2 million. Other proj ects that are included in this are Frontier School Division at $600,000 be extended. We do get some rec overy on that - 20 perc ent - that reflects the amount of Treaty Indian students that will be involved . So most of that is direct provincial expenditure.

Norway House, $360,00 and that expenditure is 82 perc ent federal. There are others: Berens River a small expenditure. Wanipigow , Brochet, and Waterhen . So it appears to me that this amount you see here is the total provincial portion of the expenditure, does not include the federal portion. But I' ll get the specific breakdown on that for him . With regards to the location of the voca tional schools. The Honourable Member for Gladstone asked about this prior to the supper hour , as to whether we were on a program to build 10 schools or not. I ca n't tell him whether we're going to build 9, 11 or 12.

I think over a long period of time that you'll see all of our high schools become comprehensive schools -or composite schools, over many years, maybe a decade, maybe more, and the number will far exceed the 10 that may have been referred to at one time. I can tell him that at the present time we're on a program to build three immediately, and I expect that we will be in a position to add to that number in the not too distant future, and presumably-one of them at least will be during the sitting of the Le gislature.

So that we will presuma bly by the end of the year have at least four of them underway and whether we're beyond that will depend on the requests and enthusiasm of the school division as well as our availability of capital and willing ness to participate in the proj ects that come before us . Now there are others under study, but at the pres ent time we have sanctioned three. We are likely to announc e a fourth in the not too distant future and there may well be more before the end of the year. Whether or not there's 10, I don't think 10 is a magic number.

Over a period of years we could end up with more than that, but those decisions will be some what dependent on the findings that come out of the Boundaries Commission to determine whether the school divisions are yet prepared to make their move towards voca tional education.

I think the honourable members are quite aware - you may have specific objectives in mind to set up a school that you know will service a given watershed area, so to speak, to draw students into it, but once you've worked this all out in terms of nice theories and pro je ctions and everything else, then you have the human factor part to consider as to whether or not the communities involved are prepared to go along with your rec ommendations, and as most of you know, it's in areas in the rural part of Manitoba where you have the double barrelled problem of, first of all, a decli ning population in the maj ority of the ce ntres ; and sec ondly, the fact that a large school servic ing a large area only acc elerates the population dec line of many of those areas.

It beco mes a very difficult problem to achieve the ideal educational ends of locating a school for educational purposes alone, so there is no question that although we have the mechanism and means of determining where a school might be functional, having it acc epted appears to take a matter of time, and there are plenty of examples around where the people have had to digest the information for quite a period of time before they agree to it. Certainly you can't go in and force this on to them if it means something that is completely unpalatable to them in terms of their effect on their community.

So those are the facts of life, and I think partially this will answer the Honourable Member for Burrows' question with regard to what is happening in the rural areas. We know what the yardsticks are theoretically, but to achieve them from a practical point of view is quite another problem.

,� ' ·' ,. April 7, 1969 · 1053 MR. DOUGLAS CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Mr. Chairman, in the case that the Honourable the Member for Gladstone mentioned, isn't the reverse the situation? It's not a case of the community not accepting the proposal that the department had prepared, is it not a case of the department having failed to carry through with the plan that Portage la Prairie thought was being worked out in co-operation with them?

I can understand what my honourable friend says, that you sometimes find that a community takes a long time to digest a given program, I thought they had pretty well digested this one but then they found that the meal was withdrawn from them, Is that the fact? Isn't that the purport of what my honourablefriendread from the Portage la Prairie Graphic a short time ago? And when the Minister is replying, Mr.

Chairman, perhaps he would mention for the sake of we people who are laymen educationally speaking, what is the change that has taken place. vis-a-vis vocational schools, and now composite schools as I understand. A short time ago the talk seemed to be about vocational schools. Incidentally, I didn't notice, Mr. Chair man, that the Honourable Minister told us yet the location of these three schools that he has been mentioning.

Is he going to take the committee into his confidence and. tell us where these three schools will be built, providing the local people are prepared to digest them and accept them, providing they do find them palatable ? Where will they be? I had gathered that -- yes, here's my honourable friend has brought the Portage Graphic down to me and the big heading is "Tee Voc Sqhool Out, says Narvey, but a composite high school may be for Portage. 11 I remember reading this

article some time back, and I'm not sure that it's the same one but I read some of the information regarding the educational program in that area, that my honour able friend's department had imported some educational expert, I think from the United States, and he had apparently convinced the department that this idea of a composite school is a supe rior program to what had been so enthusiast ically proclaimed a short time ago about the voca tional. Now the one other point, Mr.

Chairman, and that's all I'll say at the moment, I under stood the Minister to say that he thought perhaps this item was just the provincial share. I had understood the Minister of Finance to say that he was adopting the program last year, and this year, of putting the full expenditures in the estimates and that these would be the over-all expenditures. However, since my honourable friend is going to get the figures later 9n, we'll probably straighten up that matter. MR .

HANUSCHAK: The Honourable Minister has mentioned that with an increase in the size and in the ope ration of vocational schools the greater the exodus of people from that com munity, and I suppose this is correct. In fact not only would the exodus be from that commu nity into a larger community within the Province of Manitoba, but quite conceivably if the type of training offered therein were for an occupation employment for which is available in the City of New York, not only would the exodus be out of that community but right out of the country of Canada, Now the question has often troubled me, Mr.

Chairman, and I would appreciate.hearing comments on it from the Honourable Minister, could not and should not our agricultural educa tion program, or whatever one wishes to call it, be expanded in vocational high schools of this type ? It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that a farmer does spend a considerable amount of time and money receiving inStruction of this type through various other ways and means.

The pool elevators run an education program for their members; various co-operatives, consumer co-operatives for that matter run similar programs ; the Extension Department of the Depart ment of Agriculture run programs of this type; all of which is time-consuming and costly in one way or another to the farmer. Now I do believe - I don't know whether it still continues or not, but there was a time when the Dauphin School offered a course in agriculture. I believe there was a school that offered an agricultural course at the high school level in Brandon.

Now it may still be there; I don't know, If it is I would like to hear it from the Honourable Minister· And i f those two schools are, the question that is still in my mind, why can not that program be expanded; and if those programs have been discontinued, why have they been discontinued ? Why should they not be continued ?

Surely even with the anticipated decrease in rural population there will still remain a need for farmers, and I'm sure that you will agree with me that in future, in order to be a succes sful farmer, one will of necessi ty need the type of training that could be offered in a school in order to run an efficient farming operation, So I would like to hear from the Minister, why could not the agricultural education

1054 April 7, 1969 (MR. HANUSCHAK Cont'd. ) •••• program -and I'm sure the Minister understands what I am talking about in this case - be expanded in our vocational high schools or technical-vocational high schools, or call them what you wish -the Minister I believe mentioned a moment ago that the day is going to come when they'll become compos ite high schools offering a variety of courses.

Well, I don't care what we label these schools, but my main concern is could not the whole field of agricultural education be expanded in our schools to train the future farmers of the Province of Manitoba and thus to reduce the exodus from rural areas and to enhance the chances of success of those remaining on the farms ? MR . CRAIK: Well, Mr. Chai rman, first of all in regard to the last speaker, there are agricultural me chanics courses in Brandon. Whether or not there's agricultural courses in volved in the curriculum at the new school at Dauphin I can't tell him, but we can find out.

I'm not sure that the curriculum is yet settled completely at Dauphin. MR . HANUSCHAK: Are these of a similar nature to other industrial courses? In other words, where a student could take a combination of academic work andagriculb1ral work and eventually obtain some type of high school standing, whatever it may be called ? MR. CRAIK: Yes.

With regard to the Honourable Member for Lakeside's question, I think that the press story he has quoted here from Portage is probably somewhat of a mis understanding, at least I don't recall any directive having gone to Por tage indicating that there was no vocational school for Portage. I think this question was asked before by the Honourable Member for Portage and I indicated at that time that what had happened was I think som ebody had made the statement in Portage that vo cational schools as such were not des cribed as such but were compos ite schools.

Now just to briefly and clearly, as br iefly as possi ble indicate why this may have ha ppened. The vocational schools that have been called vocational schools do not normally have an academic component in them that offers academic courses alone, or all the academic courses alone up to the univers ity entrance courses and the Univers ity En trance Grade 12.

The composite schools are a comb ination of the academic as well as the vocational, and the reason for referr ing to all of them as compos ite schools is to - the aim of it was to reduce the confusion that was occurring between a vocational school and a com pos ite school, and the aim .of the department, as I see it, is that where possi ble we attempt in one institution to offer all courses from Univers ity Entrance to Gene ral to Vocational to Oc cupational Entrance, where possible, and so on, to get the desired number of students where we can offer all of these courses in the one institution.

That is a comprehensive or composi te type of education and our aim should be I think, as far as possible, to develop the schools that do offer all of these, and I think that you'll find that probably as we progress in Manitoba that the vocational school itself, such as the R. B. Rus sell, is a very special case where people that are not as endowed intellectually or for some other reason may not have made progress by the age of 15 years of age, could go in there for pretty much completely vocational training.

But the other institutions in general, the com posi te schools, are there because vocational is added to the academic to offer som eone a more well-rounded educational opportunity, or if he des ires not to take the academic but to take something that is completely vocational, he can do that and in effect he would get something that was more akin to the sort of offerings at the R. B. Russell School.

But, in general, I think we'll find throughout the province that where we can build som ething with vocational facilities to any extent, we can also add on, not add on but have something that is large enough to offer academic as well as vocational, and this is a composite school. Now, Portage la Prairie was probably told that vocational schools are not in but com posi tes are, and they have said, "We're not in. " I think that's probably what's happened. MR. CAMP BELL: ...• the location of the three schools ? MR .

CRAIK: The location of the three I mentioned are Selkirk, Dauphin and Metro Winnipeg Ea st of the River. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Res olutions 107 and 108 were passed. ) MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, in light of the hour, rather than have the Minister of Agri culture start at 10 to 10, I move the Committee rise. MR . CHAffiMAN: Commi ttee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions and asks leave to sit again.

_) April 7, 1969 1055 IN SESSION MR . M. E. McKELLAR (Souris-La nsdowne) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Winnipeg· Centre; that the report of the Committee be received. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carrie,d. MR . LYON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Finance, that the House do now adjourn. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House adjourned until 2:30 Tuesday afternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-3-44
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 3rd hansardpdf 44.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	cfc93fb7fe46d116df6649cb3266231f6e266c10

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