Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 10 (32nd Legislature, 2nd Session)

32-2-10

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 10 - 2:00 p.m., WEDNE SDAY, 15 DEC EMBER, 1982. Printed t./ the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.A. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R: (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRA HAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER , Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILL IPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elm wood Ki ldonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Ki rkfield Park The Pas Ru pertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Ros smere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP IND NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP PC NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP PC PC NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC NOP NOP NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP NOP NOP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 15 December, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Spe aker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Peti- tions Read ing and Rec eiving Petitions . Prese nting Re por ts by St anding and Special Committees MI NIS TER IAL STATEM ENTS AND TABLING OF REP ORTS MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the Annual Reports of the Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation for the year ended March 31, 19 82; and the Annual Report for the Franco Manitoba Cultural Centre for the year 19 81 -82.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER : Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a brief statement to the House on tomor row's Finance Ministers' Conference at Meach Lake, Quebec. At the conference. I plan to table a paper entitled "The Unem ployment Crisis in Canada; Manitoba's Proposals for a Co-ordinated National Response." I want to provide members with copies at this time, and I believe they're being distributed right now. The message in our paper is straightforward. - (I nterjection)- I believe the member has a copy.

We believe an all-out national campaign is required to deal decisively with the unemployment situation in this country. All senior governments across Canada have mounted special programs to create jobs and to help those hurt worst by the recession but, up to now, these programs haven't .been effective enough or well enough co-ordinated. We believe far more must be done. Our paper proposes a broad policy framework for united national attack on unemployment under the leadership of the Government of Canada and with the co-operation and support of the provinces.

The principal recommendations include a major capital works prog ram to create jobs. The details and financing of the program would be worked out by both orders of government within the next month. It appears from media reports that the Federal Government may favour such a plan, in principle, but may be unwilling as yet to co mmit the necessary resources to it, possi bly preferring to see the provinces shoulder most of the financing responsibility themselves. We have not received confi rmation of this position from the Fed eral Government. but if it were correct. it would be a major concern to us.

Manitoba is willing to do its fair share and I am sure the same is true of most. if not all, other provinces. But we believe the Federal Government should take the lead because of its overall responsibility for the eco nomic managemen t of this country and its greater financial capacity despite its current problems. Our paper also emphasizes the need for closer co operation and consultation among the Federal Gov ernment and the provinces. We continue to feel, as other provinces do, that a First Ministers' Conference on the economy should be held as soon as possible. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for St.

Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker. the statement is based apparently on a paper that I don't have and haven't had an oppor tunity to peruse to date. I note, however, Mr. Speaker, that in the third last paragraph of Page 2 the Minister says: "We believe the Federal Government should take the lead." Mr. Speaker, we contrast that with the promises of the Premier, the NOP, during the election one year ago where they prom ised and guaranteed to the citizens of Manitoba that they would turn ar ound the allegedly poor eco nomic circumstances that had gone on up until that date. Mr.

Speaker, the unemployment situation in Mani toba is obviously very appalling, very distressing, very discou raging when this province has 52.000 unem ployed persons and, hopefully, the Minister of Labour today will answer the question I asked her yesterday about the real number of unemployed persons in this province. This province is unfortunately leading the way among all provinces in Canada in the increase in unemployment across Canada, Mr. Speaker, for the month of August and for the month of November in the incr ease in the seasonally adjus ted rate of unemployment. Mr.

Speaker, hopefully, somebody will help this govern ment, Mr. Speaker, combat this most distress ing, tragic situation for so many individuals and fami lies in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. ·HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker. I beg leave to table the Tenth Annual Report of the Legal Aid Ser vices Society of Manitoba for the year ending March 31 , 19 82. 247 Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to table a report received from the Legal Research Institute of the University of Manitoba from a Task Force headed by Professor Dale Gibson on The Im pact of the Canadian Charter of Righ ts and Freedoms on Manitoba Statutes. At the moment I only have two cop ies to table, one for tabling and one for the Op position. It will be some time before there are sufficient copies for all members of the House. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion INTRODUCTION OF BI LLS HON. R. PENNER introduced Bill No. 20, The Occu piers' Lia bility Act;

Loi sur la respo nsabilite des occu pants; and Bill No. 22. The Will s Act; Loi

Wednesday, 15 December, 1982 sur les testaments. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAK ER: Before we reach Oral Questions. may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 26 students of Grade 9 standing from the Ri ver West Park School under the direction of Miss Carol Wright This school is in the consti tuency of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. There are 22 students of Grade 11 standing from the Tuxedo Shaftesbury High School under the direction Mr. Semotok. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Tuxedo.

On behalf of all of the members, we welcome you here this afternoon. MR. SPEAKER: Oral Questions. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MATTER OF PRI VILEGE MR. A. RAN SOM: Prior to Oral Questions, Mr . Speaker, I wish to rise on a question of House privi lege, this being the earliest opportun ity to raise the matter. I would advise you, Mr. Speaker, that I will be presenting information to show that there is a prima facie case, that the Minister of Ag riculture has misled the House and the point will be followed by a substan tive motion.

Sir. the practice and tradition of this House over the decades has been that Ministers of the Crown do not provide information to members of the media or to the public which has not already been presented to members of this House on introduction of the bill for Seco nd Reading. Ministers over the years have occa sionally strayed from that practice and I believe have almost universally been called to order by members of this House when that happened, because occasion ally when bills are distributed, Ministers are asked questions by members of the media and they have responded to those questions.

They have universally been called to order. When the Minister of Agricu lture announced his intention yesterday to hold a press conference prior to Bill No. 3, The Farmlands Ownership Act, being intro duced for Second Reading, it was brought to his atten tion and to the attention of the House that this would indeed be breaking with the practices and traditions of the House.

The Minister chose not to cancel his press conference but to proceed with it, assuring the members of the House at the same time, Sir, that the information which he was providing to the House was the same information that he would be providing to members of the media. He was questioned by the Member for Arthur as to whether he would not respect the traditions and practices of this House and provide the House with the information prior to providing it for the media. The Minister of Agricu lture answered, Mr.

Speaker, "I certainly have been in this House a fair deal of time and have full respect for the traditions of the House. The honourable members obviously don't like the method that I have used in terms of providing them with as much information as I will be distributing to the public of Manitoba." Mr. Speaker. what the Minister of Agricul ture had provided to the House yesterday, along with Bill 3, 248 was a two-page news release put out by Information Services through the Premier's Office.

The Minister of Agricu lture then proceeded to hold a press confer ence and to distribute information which had not been distributed to members of this House, after giving the assurance in this House that the media would only get exactly the same information as members of this Legislature had been given. The Minister of Agricul ture went directly from this House to his press co nfer ence and proceeded to distribute information which had not been made available to this House.

I, therefore, wish to bring to your attention, Sir, as evidence to show there is a prima facie case that the Minister of Agricul ture has misled the House is, first of all, the two-page press release which he distributed yesterday which I can table aga in, Sir. The statement made by the Minister of Agricul ture which appears on Page 217 of Hansard, in which he said "The honour able members obviously don't like the method that I have used in terms of providing them with as much information as I will be distributing to the public of Manitoba." Then.

Sir, I wish to table the package of information which the Minister of Agricu lture distributed to the media at that press conference. Placing the Member for Arthur in the position of being asked questions following the press conference on the basis of mate rial which had not been provided to him. I therefore move, Mr. Speaker, seconded by the Member for Arthur, that this House do censure the Minister of Agricul ture for a breach of the privileges of its members by misleading its members in the matter of information made available to the media and with held from members of the Legis lative Assembly. MR.

SPEAKER: Does any member wish to advise the Chair on this matter? The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak to the issue but in the absence of the Minister of Agricu lture it seems to me the better part of wisdom, since the motion is based on some factual allegations that the person who is -and I'll use the term in its generic way -"accused" should be present to hearthe argument and respond, should the motion be ruled in order.

It will be my intention when the Minister of Agricu lture is present to refer to you certain Speaker's Ru lings and allege that the motion is not in order, but I would not even want to do that in the absence of the Minister of Agricu lture unless you so ruled that it must proceed in his absence. I would hope that you do not do that or I would hope that the members opp osite do not insist that that be done. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker.

I see no reason why the Government House Leader cannot proceed with his arguments respecting the acceptability of the mat ter of privilege. I would have no great exception to a short delay in terms of the debate taking place on this matter of privilege if he can assure us that the Minister of Agricu lture will be here forthwith. but his initial comm ents which he referred to can be made at this

Wednesday, 15 December, 19 82 --------- ---- -------------------- ----------- ---------- time_ The matter of privilege. acco rding to our Ru les, as you know, Sir, is to be dealt with immediately_ MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader to the same point HON. R.

PENNER: I would hope that it is not a Rule of this House or that you will not hold, Sir, that it is a Rule of this House that a matter of this seriousness be dealt with in the absence of the person who is alleged to have misled the House_ To me, that is a denial of fundamental justice, a denial of due process, which I would think this House would not want to counte nance.

I would ag ree with the contention that the matter should be raised and discussed at the earliest possible time, but I would ask you to hold that the earliest possi ble time is the time when the member is in his or her chair_ I would like to recall to you, Sir, and for the House, that last week when an issue arose that has been the subject of some debate -unfortunately some acrim ony - you had a ruling to make but you declined to make it until the Member for Fort Garry was in his chair_ That seemed to me entirely appropriate for you to do_ It wou ld seem to me that the members opp osite should recog nize that to proceed on the matter, even with respect -(l nterjection)- May I ask, Sir, that with the Minister of Agricu lture now making his tim ely entrance from offstage, that you read the motion so that the Minister is aware of the allegation made, and perhaps the member op posite would like to repeat the brief statement that he'd made alleging this wrong do ing and then I would speak to the question of order.

MR. SPEAKER; Does the Hono urable Member for Tur tle Mountain wish to make his point now that the Minister is here? MR. A.

RANSOM: Yes, Mr_ Speaker_ At the request of the Government House Leader, I am quite prepared to say once again, for the benefit of the Minister of Agri culture, that I have this afternoon risen on a question of privilege_ It has to do with the Minister of Agricul ture misleading the House with respect to information being made available to members of the media, infor mation which was not made available to members of this House, despite the assurance from the Minister of Agricul ture that the press release which was tabled in this House or distributed in this House yesterday afternoon along with Bill No_ 3, The Farmla nds Ownership Act, was the only information that would be provided to members of the media.

The Minister su bsequently left this House, went directly to his press conference, proceeded to distrib ute information which was not made available to members of this House and that, Sir, is the basis of our question of privilege_ The Minister misled the House by assuring us that informa1ion he had provided to us was the sole information that would be provided to the media_ The Minister proceeded to provide additional information_ I have tabled that as prim a facie evidence of the case that the Minister misled the House_ I then moved the motion that the Minister be censured for misleading the House with respect to the information prov ided to the media and withheld from members of this Assembly MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General on a point of order. HON. R. PENNER: Mr_ Speaker, I rise on a point of order and will ask you to rule that the motion, as presented, is not in order. In doing so, I can best make the point which I intend to make by referring to the ruling, in somewhat similar circumstances but con taining a general statement of the point, made by Mr. Speaker Fox, as he then was, on the 11 th of April, 19 72_ We have been advised quite frequently by the Member for Virden that the Ru les of this House include the precedents of this House, which include Speakers' Ru lings.

I don't want to do an injustice to the ruling of such an eminent Speaker as Mr. Speaker Fox was, and therefore, if I may -it's very short - I propose to read it He pointed out that the Member for Lakeside had risen to ask that a matter of privilege "affecting all members of the House" be adjudicated upon_ The nub of the contention was that statements were being dis seminated by the Minister in respect to Western Flyer industry before being presented in the House.

"Since the Chair is not aware of the particular statement by the Hono urable Minister of Industry and Commerce, it is in doubt whether the matter of privilege exists since many statements have appeared both within and out side of the House in respect to this concern and con sequently the Chair cannot decide whether the matter has been raised at the earliest time as indicated by our Rule 24." Now that's not what I'm relying on; I'll go on. I am not sa ying tha t it wasn't brought in at the earliest possible time.

I just want to, digressing from the quo tation, point out that statements with respect to this particular matter, namely, The Farmlands Act, have been disseminated publicly in many different forms including, as recently as a few weeks ago, a package of material that was sent to the Leader of the Opp osi tion which I am advised doesn't differ a whit from that which was presented to the press, but I go on. -Aside from that," Mr_ Speaker Fox continues, "I should say again, as I have indicated previously in my rulings, that I am dealing only with the technical and procedural aspects of the matter and not in any way -with the merits of the situation or the allegations. 249 "Privilege, as defined in May's 17 th Edition states:'..

The privileges of parliament are right s which are 'absolutely necessary for the due execu tion of its powers_' They are enjoyed by individual members, because the House cannot perform its functions with out unimpeded use of the services of its members; and by each House for the protect ion of its members and the vindication of its own authority and dignity. "These

definitions," the ruling continues, "are very general; it is perhaps on purpose that a clear and logical definition has never been given of our parlia mentary privilege," and I think all authorities, Sir, point that out "However. authorities on the subject argue that privilege includes freedom of speech, in the sense of immunity agai nst suits and defamation; free dom from arrest in certain very limited circumstances; exemption from court duty as a witness or as a juror; protection against undue influence, and reflection on members_ "There are also the co llective privileges of the

Wednesday, 15 December, 19 82 ----·-------------- ----- House. dealing with the control of its proceedings and publications: the calling and protection of witnesses: reflections and indignities affecting the House as a body or as an institution". the right to set up its own rules. and the traditional privileges claimed by the Speaker on behalf of the House at the opening of Parliament. "It will be seen. thus." Mr. Speaker Fox continues.

"that parliamentary privilege is concerned with the special rights of members. not in their capacity as Ministers or as Party Leaders or Whips. or Parliamen tary Secretaries. but strictly in their capacity as members. Allegations of misjudgment or misman agement. or maladministration. on the part of a Minis ter in the performance of the ministerial duties. does not come within the purview of parliamentary privi lege." I am now com ing closer to the point.

"I have attempted as thorough a study as possible in respect to cases of privilege in which cases reported dealt with situations where members felt that they had been adversely affected in their right to participate in parliamentary work without undue pressure. influ ence or accusat ions. either from inside or outside the House. In fact. nowhere can there be found authority for the propos ition that administrative misdeeds as such can be raised by way of question of privilege.

The Chair is even more hesitant to come to the con clusion that information disseminated which is of interest to the public and of a nonconfidential nature can be construed as an irregular procedure of this House or classified as a misdeed. It may be a discour tesy. but that is not a procedural matter for the Chair to judge. The Chair is not aware of any Rule which stipulates that public information must first be made known in the House." Further.

I should like to refer honourable members to a ruling of Mr Speaker Lamou reux on the 31s t, 19 69. where he declined to entertain a motion that a matter of privilege prevailed. surrounding the circum stances described as a leak to the public of confiden tial information before being presented to the House of Common s. "In conclusion. therefore.

I must indicate to the Ho nourable Member for Lakeside that he may possi bly have a grievance. and we know there are occa sions on which grievances can be raised. but the Chair cannot accept it as a matter of privilege." There's a conclusion to the ruling which is not rele vant. but that is the substance upon which I rely as a precedent of this House and ask you to rule. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker. on the point of order. the Government House Leader and learned law pro fessor has made an excellent defense but. unfortu nately the defense is for the wrong charge. The Gov ernment House Leader anticipated that there would be a point of privilege raised with respect to the Minis ter making a statement outside of the House prior to making it in the House. That is not the nature of the point of privilege. Sir. The point ol privilege is that the Minister of Agricul ture assured this House that we had all the informa tion which he would make available within moments 250 to the press.

He proceeded directly from this House and provided information to the press which was not provided to us. Sir, I have tabled the information and I can quote a more recent ruling by a Speaker, Sir. and that happened on December 7th of this year when a matter of privilege was raised by the Member for Fort Garry. The matter of privilege was accepted by you. Sir, bearing in mind the basis of Citation 84 of Beau chesne, Fifth Edition, that once the claim of a breach of privilege has been made, it's the duty of the Speaker to decide if a prima facie case has been established. Since you have already established.

Sir. that a charge of misleading the House is a basis for a point of privi lege. I suggest your only task at the moment is to rule whether or not a prima facie case has been made to the effect that the Minister of Agriculture misled the House. MR. SPEAK ER: The Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: On the same point of order. two points. I thank the Member for Turtle Mountain for his very kind reference to my most immediate antecedent as a law professor. It's not so often where references from the opposite side go back just that far.

The motion. and may I read it to make my point, "THAT this House do censure the Minister of Agricul ture for a breach of the privileges of its members by misleading its members," and it doesn't stop there "and where we deal with this motion." This is in a sense the basis for the indictment, "in the matter of information made available to the media and withheld from the members of the Legislative Assembly." There is no prima facie case that there has been -(I nterjection)- well, there has not A prima facie case means exactly that. something which is imme diately evident, namely, as alleged, not now as amended in some way or explained. but as specifically alleged, namely, that there has been information made available to the media and withheld from members of the Leg islative Assembly.

There is not anything that is presented in the motion or in the record which creates a prima facie case on that point It was to that point which I was speaking, namely. the motion, not some airy fairy elaboration of the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mi nister of Ag riculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yester day when I was asked whether I would be proceeding with respect to this motion. Mr. Speaker.

I would like to indicate that I said to the honourable members at the time that I would be making this statement and I quote from Hansard, Page 217 , "The honourable members obviously don't like the method that I have used in terms of providing them with as much informa tion as I will be distributing to the public of Manitoba. · Mr. Speaker, when I distributed the press release here. the kit of information that I distributed to the media was not -(Int erjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Is the Honourable Minister debating the issue or is he merely advising the Chair whether it is in order to be placed before the House?

Which is the matter presently under discussion?

Wednesday, 15 December, 19 82 HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker. I'm rising on whether this matter is a question of privilege. The package of information that was distributed to the media after I made the statement was distributed to the Conserva tive caucus. a copy of all the information. As well. the basic information. Mr. Speaker. that was given to the media was given in public speeches that were made in Portage la Prairie where the Honourable Member for Portage attended, the Honourable Member for Arthur attended.

That same informat ion. in fact. in a letter to the Leader of the Op position. some of the statistical data that was distributed to the media. was also sent to him. I admit that the statement was not given to the Leader of the Op position at the time. but the state ment and the letters were given to the public of Mani toba as far back as Augu st. Mr. Speaker. in terms of the information that was there. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

If no one else wishes to offer any advice on this matter, I will review the mate rial that the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain has filed this afternoon, as well as checking with Hansard and with Beauchesne for any previous sim ilarities and take the matter under advisement MR. A. RANSOM: I rise on a point of order. I draw your attention to Rule No. 25 of our Ru les, Orders and Forms of Proceeding on Page 16 , that says, "When a matter of privilege arises, it shall be taken into consid eration immediately." MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R.

PENNER : On that point of order, that's exactly what has happened, it's been taken under consideration and nowhere states that you must rule imme diately. To force a Speaker into that position is to ask that a Speaker do not consult the authorities, and I think that would be wrong. We want the Speaker, whoever that person may be, to be in a position to reflect, to look at the authorities and then to make the ruling. I think that to suggest that the Speaker must react on the instant, without that oppor tunity, would be improper. It would be wrong, and I don't think that should be encouraged . MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. I thank the honourable members who have spoken on this point and there are. indeed, a number of precedents for previous Speakers having taken matters of privilege under advisement as recently as the Fifth Session of the Thirty-First Legislature and several other items before that which I will provide the honourable member with quotations if he wishes. The matter that he refers to is our Rule No. 25, which concludes with (See Beauchesne's Fourth Edition, Citations 10 4(3), 10 5(2) and 113 ).

The honourable member will find if he refers to the first one, 10 4(3) that under the matter of privilege it says "That a matter which is postponed to suit the convenience of the House. or to secure the attendance of a mem ber implicated, or to give the Speaker an opportunity to consider it fully does not forfeit priority when eventu ally raised." It would seem clear from that and from previous precedents, even in this House as recently as just over a year ago. that it is qu ite in order for the Speaker to take matters under advisement and I so do. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker. can the House be assured that the matter will be dealt with prior to the House recessing which I suppose is likely to happen tomorrow? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Since members are not permitted to address questions to the Speaker, I sup pose the answer must depend upon whefl the House adjourns. Does the Honourable Government House Leader wish to advise? HON. R. PENNER: Well, in any event, I'm not moving a motion for adjournment.

Yes, I think that you should take that time which you find necessary in order to give it the kind of learned and scholarly treatment that I'm sure that you would want to give and that is what the House expects from you and has learned to expect from you. ORAL QUESTIONS Health Sciences Day Care Centre - fees MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FIL MON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my ques tion is for the Honourable Minister of Community Ser vices and Corrections.

Can the Minister inform the House why he has approved a daily charge at the Health Scie nces Centre Day Nursing which will see certain parents paying more than the actual costs of having thei� children placed in care there? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Com munity Services. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, I would like to take that ques tion as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR. G. FIL MON: Yes, Mr. Speaker, may I add then to that the information for the Minister to take under · advisement.

As I understand it, that the administration at the Health Sci ences Centre has confirmed to par ents of children in its Day Nursery Centre that the actual cost for a child under two years is approx i mately $20 per day, and the actual cost for a child over two years of age is approximately $12 per day, and that the Minister, as I understand it, has approved a sliding scale that will see some parents paying as much as $25.50 per day. Will the Minister look into that matter and bring us back the information? 251 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com munity Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I don't remem ber the specifics that the honourable member refers to, but I will take that as notice as well. Canola crushing industry - meeting MR. SPEA KER: The Hon ourab le Memb er for

Wednesday, 15 December, 1982 Robli n-Russell MR. J. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Agricultur e. Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the Minister of Agricul ture can advise the House. the canola growers and their crushing indus try in this province. some of the highlig hts of the Regina meeting this week which was held with the Ministers of Agriculture of Saskatchewan and Alberta to deal with the problems that industry is having at the present time MR . SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you. Mr. Speaker.

I can advise the honourable member that during the meet ing we held with the prairie Ministers of Agricu lture we did invite the industry to attend and the Canola Crushers of Canada. along with a representative of a producers' organization in the canola industry. At that time the industry made certain proposals. asking that we put a united position forward to bring about parity in terms of the freight rate question as opposed to other modes of transportation in dealing with pro cessed and raw seed.

As well. the industry asked the provinces to set up a consu ltative mechanism. so that the future of the industry can be discussed prior to any changes being made. One could deduce from that, that they were certainly putting toward the difficulties that the crushers in Saskatchewan and Man itoba are faced with. with respect to the Al berta subsidy on transportation.

I might add to the honourable member that during that meeting I did ask the Alberta people to reconsider their position to withdraw that subsidy and, if they still wished 'to put money into the industry, that other forms might be used in order to help their industry in their own province. some of which I'm advised are -in terms of financial conditio ns -relatively stable.

How ever, there are some portions of the industry in finan cial difficulty that those funds mi ght have been used in terms of debt and long-term debt reduction rather than as a direct transportat ion subsidy in compet ition with Saskatchewan and Manitoba firms.

We did agree and it was done -that a telex be sent to the Federal Minister of Transportation along the lines that the Province of Manitoba did with respect to the increase of 40 percent in the minimum compensatory rates put forward into law by the Canadian Transport Commission: that we asked for an early meeting with the Transport Minister and that in the meantime, as we had done on a Manitoba basis. the increases be res cinded: and that before any future increases be con templated that the state of the industry in Western Canada be viewed and not only the state of the revenues of the railways of this country.

MR. J. McKENZIE: Thanks. Mr. Speaker. I under stand then the next meeting that will be held will hope fully be with the Federal Transport Minister. Jean-Luc Pepin HON. B. llRUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That is our hope. Mr. Speaker. we have asked for an early 252 meeting and that the three prairie Ministers have urged the Minister to meet at his earlist convenience to discuss this seriousness to the canola industry in Western Canada. MACC - interest rate MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you. Mr. Speaker, my ques tion is to the Minister of Agric ulture.

The Farm Credit Corporat ion has dropped its interest rates on regular farm loans to 9.25 from 15 . 75. Special loans to farmers in distress will drop to 9.25 percent. Can the Minister of Agr iculture say what interest rate the Manitoba Agricultur al Credit Corporation is charging farmers at the present time? MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Mi nister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker. the honourable member speaks of the Federal Farm Credit, a program which I go from memory, which probably brings into Manitoba an amount of somewhere between $10 mil lion and $14 million which will help some producers but will not go a very long way in terms of the financial difficulties many of our producers are in. The Honourable Member for Pembina raised a sim ilar question several days ago dealing with interest rates.

I did and have raised this matter with the Mani toba Agricultur al Credit Corporation -in terms of whether or not those loans which were taken out in the last several years when the provincial borrowing rate was around 17 percent. That matter is being reviewed and documentation of the whole background is being prepared formally to review and the decision will be made. To the specific s of the honourable membe r's question -the present rate is somewhere between 12 percent and 13 percent, I believe, but the specific s of it. I will take as notice. MR. A.

BROWN: Can the Minister then say when they are reviewing this whether the Government of Mani toba is prepared to drop its interest rate on farm loans made by the Manitoba Agricultur al Credit Corpor a tion. also? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, that would be a mat ter of policy and the honourable member knows that the rates offered to the farmers of Manitoba are within 1 /2 of 1 percent of the provincial borrowing rate and that is as low as one could get anywhere in the marketplace.

The Manitoba Agricultur al Credit Corporat ion. in terms of the amounts of mon ies available to farmers. supply a small portion of the market and in terms of short-term credit, operating credit, is very small in that field, other than the Loan Guarantee Progr am that is in place and one that is being presently negotiated. In terest Rate Relief Program - number enrolled MR. A. BROWN: My question is to the same Minister. What does this drop in interest rate do to the Interest

Wednesday, 15 December, 1982 Rate Rel ief Program the Minister implemented in Manitoba? Can the Minister indicate approxi mately how many Manitoba farmers will qualify in Manitoba under his Interest Rate Relief Program? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, specifically there is just under 500: I will use the figur e 470 farmers across the Province of Manitoba now enrolled in the pro gram, the bulk of which do come from the central and southwestern por tions.

More than half of the farmers enrolled in the prog ram are from the areas represent ed by my honourable friends. -(Int erjection)- Well, your area is included in that as well -the Member for Turtle Mountain. The central and southwestern regions of the province make up more than half of the people on the program. Applic ations are still coming in.

In terms of the interest rates there is no doubt that everyone is more than pleased that the interest rates have dropped. are dropping, and we hope that they will continue to drop to bring about some confidence and some relief to the people who have had to borrow, in terms of operating credit, at exorbitantly high rates. Gypsumville Wildlife Game Farm MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIE DGER: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Natural Resources.

Peter Kalden is trying to establish a wildlife game farm in the Gyp sumville area on an approx imately 1, 200-acre ranch and has indicated that he is running into great difficulty with the regula tions with the Department of Natural Resources. Can the Minister indicate why he is refusing to communi cate or to meet with Mr. Ka Iden to discuss some of his problems? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MAC KLING: Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to respond to the member's qu estion.

As honourable members may know, we have indicated in policy statements that it is not the intention of this govern ment to encourage the raising in captivity of wild animals and then they are being slaughtered for meat We have enough problems. Mr. Speaker, at the pres ent time trying to contend with the illegal hunting of elk and moose. To encourage the de velopment of raising these animals in captivity would compound the problem. Mr. Kalden comes from an area of the world where game farming or game hunting has been restricted to the elite and to those privileged in society with land.

In North America. it has been our practice to provide this oppor tunity to the bulk of the people and it will be the continuing policy of this gove rnment to ensure that the resource is available to the majority and not the few. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to indicate that at no time have I indicated that I am not accessible. As the honourable member knows and honourable members of that side of the House know, my office has been open to their constituents and to those members whenever they have requested. There is mention in an

article in the Press that I was consistently unavailable for comment Any one of the personnel in this House who represent media will know that I place high prior ity in responding to any call or any request for infor mation from the media. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minis ter, Mr. Kalden has indicated that the regulations in Saskatche wan and Alberta are not as stringent as here. that he might try and sell his ranch and move his operation over there because of the problems that he's encountering here.

He also indicated that the Department of Natural Resources had indicated a desire or the possibility of buying his land. Can the Minister indicate whether he or his department are prepared to buy the ranch that Mr. Kalden is offering for sale? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, as the honourable member may know, we don't have a very large surplus in our Budget. We are not out looking for ways to spend taxpayers' dollars at this time. It may be that members in my department may consider that the acq uisition of good wildlife habitat is in order, but that kind of priority will have to be evaluated during the Estimates.

I don't know whether that is possible, Mr. Speaker, but certainly, if the honourable gentleman who has this game farm is desirous of moving where regulations do not coincide with our policy, that's his prerogative and I would give him every assurance that we would wish him well. Reintroduction of bison proposal MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is also to the Minister of Natural Resou rces.

Prior to the elec tion, over a year ago, our government had been in the process of working with the Indian Band at Skownan, the Waterhen Band I believe, to develop a program for the reintroduction of bison into the Northern Interlake area which could have, over the years, provided hundreds of thousands of dollars of income and employment to those people. The gov ernment, I · believe, has cancelled that project, but perhaps the Minister could update us on that and advise, if indeed it has been cancelled, why? 253 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resou rces. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, the proposal was a very unique and intriguing one, but what it did involve was kind of an exclusive or an elitist hunting when I first saw it -(I nterjectio n)-Well, the honour able members opposite laugh, but what it involved, Mr. Speaker, was inviting or encou rag ing non residents to come here and spend some several thou sands of dollars in order to have the privilege of shoot ing a captivated wild animal. Mr. Speaker, I have looked at those proposa ls. There is some merit in the proposa l to try and ensure the continuance of endangered species that was involved in this proposa l.

However, like all the rest of these proposals, we must weigh them in light of the

Wednesday, 15 December, 1982 times in which we operate. As I recall that prop osal. it involved a considerable expenditure of money on the part of the Provincial Government and. at this time. I continue to question why members oppos ite are con cerned about why we shouldn't spend more and more hundreds of thousands of dollars when they decry the size of the provincial deficit MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker. the Minister doesn't seem to be very well informed on what the project invo lved.

It involved animals ranging over hundreds. indeed thousands. of square miles in the Northern Interlake. far from being a captive herd. I wonder if the Minister can advise the House whether he had indication from the Indian Band at Waterhen whether or not they had any aversion to accepting money from the elitist hunters, as the Minis ter refers to them. in order that those people might have some measure of employment HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker. the honourable member seems to have a fairly short memory.

It is true that a large amount of money would be coming from the Federal Government. but there was still a very very sign ificant contribution required by the Provincial Government In light of that. and in light of the times in which we live and the dif ficulties we have in taxing people to raise money for projects. we have to look at ways in which we can spend our money.

If I indicated to the Band that if the Federal Govern ment would formally commit itself to the many hundreds of thousands of dollars that would be involved on their part then. of course, we would con sider it, but that commitment has not been forthcoming. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker. we're simply attempt ing to determine why the Minister made the decision. Can the Minister confirm now that. from the time I first raised the question today, he has overcome his con cern about elitist hunters and is now saying it's a question of finances? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker. my observations about the orig inal prop osal, as apparently approved by the honourable friend oppos ite. did involve an aspect that I considered to be unsatisfactory. I indi cated my concerns to the Indian Band and they apparently ag reed because a modified proposal came back that deleted that kind of requirement Task force - motor transport industry MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask some questions of the Honourable Minister of Hig hways.

I received a copy of the Weekly News Service just the other day and I note the Minister has set up a task force under the chairmanship of Dr. John Rea. together with Mr. John Kinley, Chairman of the Motor Transport Board; Mr. Carl Procuik. Registrar of Motor Vehicles: and Mr. Bill Janssen. an economic consultant I would like to ask the Honourable Minis ter if Mr Janssen will be getting additional remunera tion for this task. other than above wl1at he is presently getting as a spec ial consultant to the Minister. 254 MR . SPEAKER: The Honou rable Min ister of Transportation. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, no. there will be no additional remuneration paid to any one person on that task force. MR. H. GRAHAM: I have another question to the Honourable Minister. This task force will be work ing for a considerable time. Does he expect that they will be giving him an in terim report or will it be a final report that comes down? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker. if I had notice, I could have given the member a comprehensive response to that last question. It is intended that there will be a series of discussions taking place at certain stages of the inquiry.

We may even go into the first and second sort of paper idea in order that the fullest consultative process might be undertaken. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Speaker. will that consul tation take place with the Minister or will it be a com mittee of this Assembly that has access to that consul tation process with his special task force? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker. the task force is going to be involved in public discussions: there are going to be no secret meetings. It is the intent to have as much public input into that inquiry as is reasonable and what we believe is necessary.

So, to the extent that we want to interface with various parts of the industry, we would want to have the fullest and most open discus sion poss ible. It does not prec lude members of the Assembly participating as far as I'm aware. MR. H. GRAHAM: I believe the Minister misunder stood my question. Would the task force be reporting to the Minister or would they be reporting to a spec ial comm ittee of the Legi slature? Will they report to the Legislature or will they report to the Minister? HON. S. USKIW : No, Mr. Speaker. they will be report ing to the Minister's office. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Elmwood. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker. if I may, I have one final MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have one final question. I would ask this question of the Hon ourable Attorney-General. If he would. being the chief law officer of the province and responsible for the enforcement of the laws of this province. then indicate to his Minister that this task force should be reporting to a comm ittee of the Legislature: namely, the Statu tory Regulations and Orders Comm ittee of this Assembly under

Section 10 of the regulations and. for his benefit. I may read it to him "Every regu lation stands permanently referred to the Standing Comm it tee on Statutory Regu lations and Orders of the l egis lative Assembly to be dealt with as provided in the

Wednesday, 15 December, 1982 Regu lations, Orders and Forms of Proceeding of the Legislative Assembly, hereinafter called the Rules of the Legisla tive Assembly." Will the Honour able Attorney-General make sure that comm ittee reports to the Legislature, rather than to the Minister as the Minister has indicated? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER : We have a difficulty here, Mr. Speaker. My reading of the passage just read by the Honourable Member for Virden is different than his.

What that refers to is the necessity of regulations being referred to the Standing Committee of the House on Regu lations and Standing Orders. I should also inform him -he knows and members of this House know -that the last time that committee actually met to consider regulations was in 19 72, and there are some thousands of regulations that have never been considered by the comm ittee and that, in any event, is all that refers to. It doesn't refer to the kind of requirement sugg ested by the Me mber for Virden. CPR - taxes MR. SPEA KER: The Honour able Memb er for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Ur ban Affairs. Given that for the past 10 0 years the CPR has paid little or no taxes to the City of Winnipeg and that the CPR will not pay its full share of taxes until the year 2005; and given that a resolution was passed in this House last summer or spring to require the CPR to pay its full taxes this year, can the Minister report on any pro gress concern ing this matter to the House at this time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Ur ban Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Since the passing of that resolution, I have discussed that matter with the City of Winnipeg at a meeting of the official delegation of the Cit y of Winnipeg and the Ur ban Affairs Committee of Cabinet. It was decided at that time that the provi nce would write to the CPR inform ing them of the passage of the resolution and asking them to commenc e negotiations with the prov ince and the City of Winnipeg with respect to that resolution. I am presently awaiting a reply from the CPR with respect to the co mmencing of those negotiations. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I asked the Minister whether he is prepared to introduce legislation this Session abolishing the privileges of the CPR and requiring them to pay 10 0 percent of their fair, estab lished taxes. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, as indi cated, we are waiting for word back from the corpor a tion and are prepared to comme nce negotiations along with the City of Winnipeg with the CPR, so the question of any legislation is premature at this time. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker.

I'd also ask the Minister whether he is receiving the full support and co ope;at ion of the Mayor and the City of Winnipeg Council concerning this matter? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker. as indicated. this matter was discussed with the official delegation of the City of Winnipeg and the Mayor is a member of that delegation. They were informed as to the resolu tion and indicated that they would participate in any negotiations that would take place with the CPR. Farm Bureau - Ownership of farmland MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Agricultu re. In view of the Minister's approach of not providing information to this House and providing it directly to the media why, in providing that information. did he not provide information from the Farm Bureau, or a letter from the Farm Bureau -in case he's not aware of it, a letter dated Oct 21 st. which stated that the Farm Bureau generally would not sup port legislation which would deny the right to own farmland in the province to other Canadians who are not Manitoba residents. Why did he not provide that information to the media, Mr. Speaker? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr . Speaker, the honour able member should well know that the Farm Bureau, when he was in office, also wrote that Honourable Minister telling him that they were opposed to his legislation: that they wanted controls on Canadian, on corporate purchases, within this province. -(Int er jection)- Mr. Speaker, I will table both letters, Mr. Speaker, for the honourable member opposite. Mr. Speaker, the honourable member received the package of information that was distributed to the public. Mr.

Speaker, he was at the meeting in Portage · la Prairie in which there was a public meeting. He was one of the public participants; he even asked ques tions about the proposed legislation. The Honou rable Me mber for Portage la Prairie also attended that meet ing. They were given all the information that was available to all the people of Manitoba; in fact, his leader received the information. Mr. Speaker, what they didn't receive at the time that I was in this House and I have said this -was a copy of my remarks, which were basically the remarks that I gave at the Portage meeting, but they were sent.

An entire package was given to the media after the press conference, Mr. Speaker. 255 MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, another question to the Minister of Agriculture. Does he support or did he give consideration, Mr. Speaker, to the request of the Farm Bureau as stated in that submission? I think that he would be able to answer this, and I'll just quote from that submission' very briefly. "Discussion of Bill 54, the Manitoba Farm Bureau representatives

Wednesday, 15 December, 19 82 expressed very strongly their oppos ition to enacting of legislation which would prohibit other Canadian citizens who are not residents of Manitoba from own ing farmland in Manitoba. This position has been con firmed by numerous calls and letters from farmers throughout the province " They underline the vast majority of farmers in Manitoba simply do not want any restrictions on Canadian citizens with respect to the ownership of farmland in Manitoba. Did he take that into consideration, Mr. Speaker, and does he not support it? As well, Mr. Speaker.

I will save him the trouble of distributing the information from the Farm Bureau and have copies for the media which he did not provide and for members of this Leg islative Assembly. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, obviously the hon ourable member wants to raise one part of that sub mission. -(I nterjection)- MR. SPEAK ER: Order please. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, we certainly did take under advisement the recommendations and the sug gestions made by the Farm Bureau as well as many other groups In fact -(I nterject ion)- well, Mr. Speaker. now they want to know. from whom?

They will have their oppor tunity when they get up in debate and debate this bill when it is under debate. Mr. Speaker. we have actually put in and allowed many Canadians the oppor tunity to own farmland in Mani toba under this piece of legislation. Mr. Speaker, bequests are one of them. Wherever the person resides, bequests will be allowed. Members of fami lies. wherever they reside in this country, will be allowed to have land transferred to them. Mr. Speaker. those provisions are put into this legislation. Mr.

Speaker. when it comes to dealing with specula tors in farmland. this bill is aimed at controlling specu lation in farmland. If the honourable members want to promote speculation in farmland. they can very well vote against the legislation and speak agai nst it, Mr. Speaker. Our legislation here deals primarily with try ing to control speculation in farmland. Meeting with universities MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Memb er for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education.

Will the Minister of Education advise the House when she last met with the presi dents of the Un iversity of Brandon. the University of Winnipeg and the University of Manitoba? MR. SPEA KER: The Ho nour able Mi nis ter of Education HON. M. HEMP HILL: Mr. Speaker. in order to give the exact date I would have to take that question as notice. My recollection is that it was a few months ago. If he wants the exact date of the meeting, I'll take that as notice. 256 Garrison Diversion project MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you very much. Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Natural Re sources. Given the welcome vote yesterday in the House of Representatives where an amendment proposed to delete the funding for 1982 for the Garrison Diversion Project was approved by 252 to 152 votes, cou ld the Minister please inform the House whether or not the Garrison Focus Office will continue its efforts. not only just in the Ho use of Repr esentatives and the Senate. but also working toward the de-authorization of the Garrison Diversion Project as is presently auth orized in the House? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A.

MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the honourable member for giving me notice of that question. I would also like, Mr. Speaker. to acknowledge the efforts of all Manitobans who partic ipated in a very extensive informational effort both at the ambassadorial level in Washington and right here in Manitoba. We talked to many visitors who saw the Garrison display in the rotunda in this building. who obtained information from the Garrison Focus Office, and the effective work that was carried out in Mani toba in letting people know about our environmental concerns respecting Garrison.

An excellent job was done by Claudia Engel. the Garrison Focus Office, and all others who partici pated in that effort. Mr. Speaker, that effort must con tinue because, although a vote was lost by the propo nents of Garrison. that doesn't mean to say that those who are anxious that it proceed will give up the fight. We will continue to maintain the Garrison Focus Office. We will maintain our presence in Washington by the excellent services of a member of the Attorney General's staff and also by the employment of an effective Washington lawyer-lobbyist right there in Washington.

It's been a good effort and those efforts have been rewarded. Antlers MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you. Mr.

Speaker, on another subject that was raised earlier this afternoon in the House regarding the game farm that's been proposed and written about in the paper a couple of days ago, I would like the Honour able Min ister of Natural Resou rces. if he could. to inform this House or to take as notice whether or not one of the prime purposes behind the persons wishing to set up that game farm is so that they can remove the antlers while velveted in the summer or early fall so that these are then sent mostly to Asian count rie s as aphr odisia cs. -(I nterjection)- MR. SPEAK ER: Order please, order please.

The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker. I appreciatio the humour and in this situation the honourable member

Wednesday, 15 December, 19 82 ------- - ---- did not give me notice of that question. I am aware, Mr. Speaker, the concerns of some would be, or actual entrepreneurs. who want to utilize the velvet from wild animals for sale beyond the borders of this country and there is an extensive market of that for the uses alluded to. Let me indicate, Mr. Speaker, that we do not encourage and we have not licenced or enab led anyone to carry on those practices with Manitoba wild animals because we think that there has to be a con cern for the humane aspects of animals, whether kept in captivit y or otherwise.

We do not believe that this is in the interest of that resource to allow that kind of activity. Municipal unconditional payments MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURL AY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. In view of the fact that various municipalities are already working on their budgets and it has been customary for the Minis ter of Municipal Affairs to announce this information prior to the year-end, will the Minister indicate to the House the amount of the municipal unconditional per capita payments for 19 83? MR.

SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Munici pal Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, it is not possible at this time to indicate just what the growth tax will amount to at this point in time and that information will be made when the information is available to us. We do not have that information at this time. Assessment Review Com mittee report results MR. D. GOURL AY: Mr. Speaker, I have another ques tion to the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

After the Minister received the report from the Assessment Review Comm ittee he indicated to the House that he would have staff members apply the recommenda tions to various test areas in the province. It was, I think, indicated that the staff had now completed this report. Will the Minister indicate to the House today the results of applying the recomm endations to the various parts of the province? HON. A. ADAM : Mr. Speaker, those projects that were undertaken have been com pleted.

I am asking staff to perhaps look at some other areas that we could also study whether the implications of the report wou ld apply to those different areas. What we have done is try to look at the school divisions where assessments of buildings have been undertaken; where buildings have not been assessed as yet it's been difficult to come up with accurate studies on what the implications would be, but as they become available -that's an ongoing process at the present time -build ings are being assessed while they're not being taxed.

They are being assessed as far as valuation is con cerned and as those become available we may be looking at further studies in that direction. · ----------- MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURL AY: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. When can the members of the Municipal Affairs Committee obtain. or in fact all the memb ers of the House obtain the information of the results of these test cases that you say you have the information now. When are the members of the House going to get this information? HON. A.

ADAM : I expect we'll be calling the Munici pal Affairs Committee before too long, Mr. Speaker, at which time we will be able to give them some of the information that we have been able to com pile at this point in time. 257 MR. D. GOURL AY: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Minister had indicated earlier in questioning in the last session that this comm ittee wou ld be meeting in the late summer or fall of 19 82. Now he's saying that this won't happen until sometim e in the future. The Minister has indicated that there will be hearings held in various parts of the province - I think he indicated January 24th of that week.

When will those areas be notified or what kind of advertising program will be carried out so that people will be aware of those meetings taking place? Is that going to be done shortly, or when? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, it'll be done very very shortly. The advertising will be placed in the newspapers and the information that we have compi led will be for warded to those people who have presented briefs to the Weir Assessment Review Comm ittee and they will be in a position to respond when we have the hear ings, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEA KER: Order please. The time for Oral Ques tions has expired.

ORDERS OF THE DAV HANSARD CORREC TION MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Memb er for Turtle Mountain. Does the Honourable Member for St. Johns have a point of order? MR. D. MALI NOWSKI: Yes, on point of order, Mr. Speaker, before the House business proceeds I would like to make a correction in the Hansard of misspelling a name from the speech which was delivered yester day by me if I may. It's on Tuesday, December 14 , on Page 232, second paragraph from the bottom, is sup posed to be "B ishop Remi De Roo", instead of "Rene Du rut". Rene Du rut is a misspelling and is an entirely different person.

This is a Bishop after all so we have to be careful. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: We thank the Honourable Me mber for the correction: it is so noted. The Honourable Me mber for Turtle Mountain.

Wednesday, 15 December, 1982 ADDRES S FOR PAPERS MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker. I move. seconded by the Member for Arthur THAT an humble address be voted to Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor of Manitoba pra ying for: I. Copies of all correspondence. for the period November 30. 19 81 to July 31. 19 82. relating to the Western Power Grid (lntertie). between the Government of Manitoba and/or Manitoba Hydro and: (

a) the Government of Saskatchean, and/or the Saskatchewan Power Corporation: and (

b) the Government of Alberta. 2. Copies of any and all proposed agreements submitted for consideration by the respective parties to the proposed lntertie arrangement during the period November 30. 19 81 to July 31. 19 82. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker. the order is accepted subject to a condition. namely, that all correspon dence without limitations as to time will be presented as soon as it is available. ORDERS FOR RETURN MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Kir k field Park. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I move. seco nded by the Member for Rhineland THAT an Order of the House do issue for the return of the following information: 1. A list of the names and addresses of all persons invited by the Premier and members of the Executive Coucil. to attend a luncheon in the Leg islative Build ing. Winnipeg, on July 14 . 19 82. in honor of Her Ro yal Highness The Princess Anne: 2. A list of the names and addresses of persons catering the luncheon: 3. The total co� of the luncheon. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker. accept. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honou rable Mem ber for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you. Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Ki rkfield Park THAT an Order of the House do issue for the return of the following information: A list of the names and addresses of all persons invited by. or on behalf of the Government of Mani toba. or by. or on behalf of the Premier and members of Cabinet. to be presented to Her Royal Hig hness 258 The Princess Anne at Winnipeg. Brandon.

Portage la Prairie and Selkirk on the occas ion of the visit of Her Royal Highness to the Province of Manitoba during the period July 14 . 19 82 to July 16 . 19 82. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I have a small prob lem with this since the invitation in question to meet Her Ro yal High ness was issued to all of the citizens of Manitoba. I'm not sure in what form I'm expected . or this gov ernment is expected, to return the informa tion.

Does the honourable member want a list of the 1. 057 million who live in the Province of Manitoba or will he accept that the invitation was issued. in fact. to all of the residents in Manitoba? MR . SPEAK ER: The Ho nou rable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes. it says by or on behalf of the Government to be presented to her. Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Is that acceptable to the gove rnment? HON. R. PENNER: Accep table, subject to any limita tion imposed by the breadth of the info rmation requested. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker. on behalf of the Member for Lakeside, I move, seconded by the Member for Ar thur THAT an Order of the House do issue for return of the following information: 1. All sales. since November 30. 19 81 of provincial Crown lands and all other lands administered by gov ernment departments. agencies or Crown corpora tions and sold for: (

a) agricultural purposes; (

b) recreational purposes; and (

c) other purposes including residential; and showing for each such parcel of land: ( 1) the legal description and size of parcel; (2) se lling depar tment. agency or Cr own corporat ion; (3) date of offer for sale; (4) how the parcel was sold (i.e. auction, tender. by application. etc.): (5) name and address of the purchaser: (6) selling price and date of sale; (7) the appraised value of land as established by the Land Value Ap praisal Comm ission or other gov ernment appoint ed appraisers. MOTION presented and carried.

Wednesday, 15 December, 19 82 --- -· ---- --- ·---· MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, accept MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: I beg to move, seconded by the Hon ourable Member for Kir kfield Park THAT an Order of the House do issue for the return of the following information: 1.

A list of all Civil Service appointm ents. from November 30. 1981. to the date of this Order, for which com petitions were held and selection comm ittees appointed, showing the following: the position, the competition number, the names and positions of the people on the selection comm it tee, and the name or names of the persons recom mended, and the name of the person appoi nted. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr.

Speaker, accept, subject to the limitations as to confidentiality imposed by the provisions of The Civil Service Act and Regu lations. I should point out, in accept ing that, also subject to the fact that informat ion to March 31, 1982 of the same kind has already been filed with the House; and thirdly, I should point out it will take a great deal of time and labour to compile that information but it is accepted subject to those remarks. MR. SPEAKER: Agr eed. The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GR AHAM: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Tuxedo THAT an Order of the House do issue for the return of the following information: A list of pool cars or other vehicles issued to, or available for, use by Executive Assistants and/or Spe cial Assistants to Ministers from November 30, 19 81 to date of this order. showing in each case; 1. Name and title of person using such vehicles: 2. Number of times vehicles requested: 3. Length of time vehicles used on each request: 4. Number of times extension for use of vehicles requested. 5. Length of extensions; 6.

Purpose for which vehicle was used on each such issue; 7. Cost of use on each such issue. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Accept, subject to the information being provided, being provided not from November 30. 1981 but from November 30. 1980. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Virden THAT an Order of the House do issue for the return of the following information: 1. Name of department, agency, comm ission or Crown corporation employing Lionel Orlikow; 2.

Title of position; 3. Terms of employment, i.e., full-time. contract or term; 4. Details of salary. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Accept, pointing out, Mr. Speaker, that the information will be included in the accepted Order No. 5, that is, the one moved by the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Memb er for La Verendrye THAT an Order of the House do issue for the return of the following information: 1.

The make, model and year of each automobile purchased after November 30, 1981 currently assig ned to all members of the Executive Council; 2. The cost of purchase of each of the above automobiles; 3. The date upon which each of the above automo biles was assigned to each of the members of Execu tive Council. MOTION presented and carried. . MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Government House Leader. 259 HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, accept, subject to a change in time, purchased after November 30, 19 80 and then it would read "assigned to all members of the Executive Council holding office in that time." MR.

SPEAKER: Agreed. The Honourable Me mber for Roblin-Russell. MR. J. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I move, seco nded by the Honourable Member for Rhineland THAT an Order of the House do issue for the return of the following informat ion - Mr. Speaker, there is an error in the printing. It should read, "Main Street Manitoba" not "Store Front Manitoba." Maybe I should read it MR. SPEAKER: Would the honourable member read it with the correction?

Wednesday, 15 December, 1982 MR. J. McKENZIE: THAT an Order of the House do issue for the return of the following information: 1 The number of applications submitted to the gov ernment of Manitoba under the program "Main Street Manitoba" for the period ending October, November and December, 19 82: 2. The number of applications approved to date: 3. The names of the applications approved: 4. Cost to date. · MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: As printed and corrected, accept, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Agr eed. The Honourable Me mber for LaVerendrye.

MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Virden THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return detailing all travel expenses incurred by the Chairman of Manitoba Telephone System on behalf of Manitoba Telephone System. Manitoba Government, Crown Corporat ions or Government Agency from December 16, 19 81, to date and showing spec ifically for each trip: 1. Destination and purpose of business; 2. Cost of air fare, cost of hotels, meals and other expenses: 3. Names of organ izations and/or people met with; 4.

A list of persons accompanying the Chairman, their expenses, and any expenses they incurred on the Chairman's behalf: 5. Information detailing expenses incurred by the government for any of the above trips; 6. A list and description for each trip, of any other expenses incurred by Manitoba Telephone System or the govern ment on the Chairman's behalf, either for or in preparation for any trip; 7. The names of relatives and/or friends accomp an ying the Chairman on any of his travels and any expenses incurred by them and paid by the govern ment or Manitoba Telephone. MOTION presented and carried. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Accept, subject to the condition that the reference to "Chairman" wherever it appears in the Order read "and previous Chairman." MR. SPEAKER: Ag reed. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I move, seconded by the Member for Swan River THAT an Order of the House do issue for the return detailing all travel expenses incurred by the Chairman of Manitoba Hydro on behalf of Manitoba Hydro, Manitoba Government, Crown Corporations or Gov- ��- -��- 260 ernment Age ncy from December 22, 19 81, to date and showing specifically for each trip: 1. Destination and purpose of business: 2. Cost of air fare, cost of hotels, meals and other expenses: 3. Names of organizations and/or people met with: 4.

A list of persons accom panying the Chairman, their expenses, and any expenses they incurred on the Chairman's behalf; 5. Information detailing expenses incurred by the government for any of the above trips; 6. A list and description for each trip, of any other expenses incurred by Manitoba Hydro or the govern ment on the Chairman's behalf, either for or in prepa ration for any trip; 7. The names of relatives and/or friends accc·inpan ying the Chairman on any of his travels and any expenses incurred by them and paid for by the gov ernment or Manitoba Hydro. MOTION presented and carried. MR.

SPEA KER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, accept, subject to references to "Chairman", including references to "the immediately previous Chairman." I should point out with respect to No. 3, that it would be subject only to the rules of commercial confidentiality. With respect to No. 4, I take it that "expenses" referred to "expenses incurred on behalf of Manitoba Hydro." I accept it subject to that understanding.

I should point out that with respect to Nos. 5 and 6 that there may be an operational difficulty in separat ing expenses previously incurred in obtaining studies, reports and memos, but to the extent that those can be separated out they will be included in the return. MR. SPEAK ER: On that same point, the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. RANSOM: The Government House Leader has been including a numb er of provisos in the accep tance of these orders going back to a previous date.

I would point out to the Government House Leader that where he indicated prev iously he was concerned about the costs of gathering this informat ion, that he could limit the cost if he would answer the questions that are here. I hope that he would not be attributing extra costs of gathering this information to us. HON. R. PENNER: Indeed, I thank the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain for that fatherly advice. I should point out that the only time I've raised the question of cost having to do with those returns is to every appointment under The Civil Service Act which, indeed, require voluminous returns.

Here we're deal ing with rather minimal information. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr . Sp eaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia

Wednesday, 15 December, 1982 THAT an Order of the House do issue for the return of the following information: 1. The names of all Execut ive Assistants, Special Assistants and Research Assistants hired by all Gov ernment of Manitoba Departments. Agencies and Crown Corpor ations from November 30. 19 81 to date of this order: 2. The method of hiring of each such person speci fying whether by Order-in-Council. by contract, or by filling or establishment of a term position; 3. The remuneration being paid for each such position. MOTION presented and carried. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, accept.

Most of this information is provided in Return to Orders 2. 3 and 4 tabled on December 14 , 19 82. The rest will be included in the Order for Return moved by the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. The Honourable Memberf or Fort Garry. MR. L. SHER MAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to move, seco nded by the Honourable Member for Niakwa THAT an Order of the House do issue for the return of the following information: 1 Names of all Boards, Comm issions and Comm is sions of Enquiry established from November 30, 19 81 to date of Order; 2.

Names of members. including staff, of each such Board, Comm ission or Commission of Enquiry and the salary and allowances being paid to each; 3. Name of Department setting up each of the above Boards, Commissions and Commissions of Enquiry. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Accept, subject to the date being November 30, 19 80. MR. SPEA KER: Ag reed. Could the Honourable Gov ernment House Leader indicate the next item of business? HON. R. PENNER: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, would you please call for Second Reading No. 16 . first fol lowed by No. 4 and then followed by No. 5 and I will advise Mr. Speaker, thereafter. SECOND READING - GOVERNMENT BIL LS Bill 16 - Oil AND NATURAL GAS TAX ACT HON. W. PARAS IUK presented Bill No. 16 ,

An Act to amend The Oil and Natural Gas Tax Act. for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON. W. PARAS IUK: Mr. Speaker, I will be distribut ing to the Opp osition a copy of my statement. Mr. Speaker, this Act is part of a package of three Acts designed to develop long-term stability in the petroleum industry in Manitoba. This is one of three Acts that has come about after a period of consulta tion with people in the petroleum industry and with people in southwestern Manitoba.

The Act is designed to encourage and maintain the cu rrent level of oil and natural gas exploration activity and production. The Government of Manitoba, through the amendments to The Oil and Natural Gas Tax Act, is bringing forward a Manitoba Drilling Incentive Pro gram. We believe this program will not only encour age oil companies to maintain the current pace of dr illing, but will also provide a sign ificant stimulus to expand and prove up recently discovered reserves like the one at Waskada and to find new Waskadas in the province.

This program, in conjunction with corresponding amendments to the Crown Royalty Regu lations, under The Mines Act and the New Oil Reference Price, NORP , the arrangements which came into effect on January 1, 19 82 will provide a continuing, powerful stimulus to the oil industry. These measures will mean increased netbacks to compan ies during the initial producing period of a well, thus increasing the cash flow of the compan ies when they most need it.

Since most of the current activity in Manitoba is being led by juniors -junior oil companies -increased netbacks are critically important to ensure continuous activity. I've said this time and time again, Mr. Speaker. that we have a tax system largely set up by the Federal Government which really provides a lot of tax incen tives to large companies and doesn't provide much in the way of incentives to small companies, be they oil companies or be they mining com panies.

We believe that it's the smaller compan ies that pay particular attention to Manitoba and it is through the instrument of the small companies, the junior companies, that we believe a good deal of oil development in Manitoba will take place. The oil and natural gas incentives, which presently expire by legislation on December 31 , 19 82 are being extended by this legislation for the four-year period, ·J anuary 1, 19 83 to December 31, 19 86. We believe these new tax and royalty incentives will greatly help Manitoba and the oil companies participating in the development of our oil resources.

We believe that this amendment will provide for longer term stability and predictability for the oil industry operating in Manitoba and thus will add to the long-term development of the oil industry in Manitoba. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Mem ber for Turtle Mountain. 261 MR. A. RANSOM: Just a question of clarification, Mr. Speaker.

On the second page of his remarks the Min ister says, "We believe these new tax and royalty incentives will greatly help Manitoba and oil compan ies participating in the development of our oil resour ces." Is the Minister referring to something else here beyond just the exter1sion of the prov isions that are now in place?

15 December, 19 82 HON. W. PARA SIUK: I stated in my statement that these are extending provisions that indeed expire as of December 31 . 19 82 and that it is the extension of these. in conjunction with the regulations mentioned on Page 1 and the new oil reference price which came into effect January 1. 19 82, which all told will provide a continuing powerful stimulus to the industry. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: I move, seconded by the Member for Turtle Mountain. that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried.

BILL NO. 4 - THE MAN ITOBA OIL AND GAS CORPORATION ACT HON. W. PARASIUK presented Bill No. 4, The Mani toba Oil and Gas Corporation Act;

Loi sur la soc it Manitobaine du petrole et du gaz nature!, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, as I said, this bill is part of a package with respect to the petroleum indus try. We believe that it's an important measure that will help the oil industry and the people of Manitoba. It is a bill which establishes the Manitoba Oil and Gas Corporation. During meetings here in Manitoba and in Alberta, several private oil companie s have welcomed this initiative and have made possible offers of joint ven ture.

The Manitoba Crown Oil and Gas Corporation will be a junior; it will be a small company founded on tong-term prospects developed at a pace that we, as Manitobans. can afford. The corpor ation will have three primary objectiv es: to prov ide a window on the industry; to stimulate exist ing development and assist priv ate jun iors through joint ventures; and to husband our resources through enhanced recovery projects and innovation.

For the immediate future, the Manitoba Oil and Gas Corporation will concentrate on joint ventures in southwestern Manitoba to help minimize some of the risk involved for small companies, as well as assisting in developing orderly cash flow for partner compan ies.

What I found in my discussions with the oil industry was that it's the small com panies that have been doing the aggr essive work in sout hwestern Manitoba and the large compan ies. who do have big cash flows, reaped in part through a whole set of tax incentives and provisions paid for by the people of Manitoba and the people of Canada. generally, have frankly focused their attention in those areas where they believe they would find the big pools of oil. They've been looking for the so-called elephants.

In the small oil companies they haven't been able to look at frontier oil exploration; that's of a scale that is way beyond them. But they have a lot of good ideas and they are good entrepreneu rs in the southwest part and they've been looking for joint ventures and part- 262 nerships. They've had difficulty form ing these with the large companies who really haven't been paying much attention to southwestern Manitoba.

They formed some partnerships between themselves, but they are looking to the Manitoba Oil and Gas Corpora tion as a stimulus, as a vehicle wher eby honestly arrived at, prudently arrived at joint ventures can be beneficial to both parties and beneficial to the people as a whole. As outlined in the legislation, it is our intention to capital ize the corporat ion at $20 million over a four year period. We will be starting small, including a small but experienced staff.

It is our hope to recruit skilled staff from the oil industry, including Manito bans who have made it in the industry and want to return home to participate in our oil development challenge here in Manitoba. Through Bill No. 4, all Manitobans will be participating in the development of their natural resources, just as the citizens of British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and even Ontario, which has almost no oil or gas but which had recently purchased 25 percent of Sun Oil, particip ate in their natural reso urce devel opment through Cr own corporations.

I want to indicate, as well, that this Crown corpora tion will be treated as any other company by the Department of Energy and Mines. I bring this forward as the Minister of Crown Investments. It has been drafted by people within the Department of Crown Investments and that it'll be treated as any other com pany by the Department of Energy and Mines. It will receive no special favours, but we believe that it will be a powerful, long-term stimulus which will be very important to the long-term development and con tinued development of the oil industry in Manitoba.

The many booms and many busts don't really pro vide for the adequate long-term linkages that we think are important. We believe that this corporat ion, this legislation as part of the package, will indeed go a long way, Mr. Speaker, to promoting tong-term stable development of the oil industry in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr . Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Me mber for Arthur, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON A. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, before I introduce the next bill I would like to table my statement so the Opposition can have them. BIL L NO. 5 - THE SURFACE RI GHTS ACT HON. W. PARASIUK presented Bill No. 5. The Surface Righ ts Act;

Loi sur tes droits de surface. for second reading. MOTION presented.

Wednesday, 15 December, 1982 MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister. HON. W. PARA SIUK: Mr. Speaker, I'll table my statement right now so that the Op position members can have it. The other two bills which were part of the petroleum package were fairly straig htforward pieces of legis la tion. This bill is a fairly complic ated piece of legisla tion and I'll take a few minutes to describe it in some depth, but before I get into the substance of the bill, princip ally, I want to just give a wee bit of background with respect to this bill.

This matter was first raised in the Legislature, May 25, 19 77. by the then Member for Virden. -(I nter ject ion)- I agree. I think he's acknowleged in the area as having pursued this matter. The matter was raised on May 25, 19 77, and there's a whole background of department ministerial activity from May 25, 19 77, to really December 10 , 19 80 -quite a long time. The Government of the Day, and it was a predecessor govern ment, spent some time determining whether they should be changing The Mines Act or whether they should be bringing in surface rights legislation.

The problems were magnifying in that particular area. They couldn't make up their mind as to whether they should bring in new legislation or change The Mines Act and the previous govenment appoi nted Ross Nugent to be a Comm issioner to look into this whole matter. That report -Mr. Nugent did have public hearings in that area in the summer of 19 81 and I, as the new Minister of Energy and Mines, received that comm is sion report on February 3, 19 83. I thanked Mr. Nugent at that time on behalf of the government.

I then went out to Virden on March 25, 19 82, and I indicated to the Surface Ri ghts Assoc iation in Virden - I know that the present Me mber for Virden was at that meeting -that it was the gove rnment's intention to proceed with a Manitoba Surface Righ ts Act which would endorse in principle the main recommen dations of the Nugent Commission. including the establishment of a Sur face Righ ts Board.

I indicated at that time that it would be my hope to try and bring in the legislation at the last Sess ion. but that I couldn't guarantee it, and that I certainly would guarantee that I would bring it in for this Session. I am certainly meeting that commitment by introducing the bill today for second reading. It is our intention to distribute this bill, as is the case with the other bills, but especially this one, to the interested parties in Sout hwest Manitoba, to people in the oil industry, to members of municipal councils who are interested in this.

I say that this area is a fairly complicated area of trying to balance off the valid interests and concern of people in the agricultural industry, people involved in municipal government, and people in the oil industry I believe that most people want both parties, that is, the oil industry and agricultu ral industry to both grow and prosper, but sometimes these two industries run into some con flicts with each other in specific instances.

We realize that we are breaking new ground with this legislation and we believe that it's important for everyone to have an open mind. to listen to each other, to work co-operatively to try and improve the bills through experience, and I say that this is part of an evolutionary process. This bill is an attempt to start off. We certainly have tried to start off in a fair-minded way and we'll see how it works in practise over the course of the next year or two.

The Act will establish mechanisms for dealing with disputes arising over the acquisition in use of lands for the purposes of exploration for and production of oil and natural gas. It is modelled after similar legislation already in place in Alberta and Saskatchewan and embodies the majority of recommendations made by the Commission of Inquiry into Manitoba Surface Rights conducted by Mr. Ross Nugent, Comm issioner. The Act is divided into seven parts:

Part I establishes the purposes of the Act which are (

a) to provide for a com prehensive procedure for acquiring and utilizing surface rights; (

b) to provide for the payment of just and equ itable com pensation for the acqu isition and utilization of surface rights; (

c) to provide for the maintenance, preservation and restoration of the surface of land acquired in connec tion with surface rights; (

d) to provide for the resolution of disputes between operators, occupants and owners arising out of the entry upon, use or restoration of the surface of land.

Part 11 establishes the Surface Rig hts Board through which the Act will be administered and whic h will hold hearings to inquire into those matters for which the Act has been established. The board is to comprise no fewer than three members appointed by the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council having regard to their familiarity with agriculture, the petroleum industry, or a petro leum producing area of the province. It is anticipated that during the first year of its operation the board will be required to hold a considerable number of hear ings and will need a full-time secretary.

Because the board is instructed to visit those areas under dispute it would be more convenient for the board to be located in Virden, close to where all the action is taking place, so that the people there can get quick service. I am certainly open to suggestions of other places, but I like to build from the exis ting infrastructure -(I nterjection)- I recogn ize that the member who interjected indeed feels some affinity to a com munity called Melita, possibly even Waskada.

I say this as an intent, but I certainly would be willing to talk to the · members concerned about that and the local people certainly about that. 263 Parts Ill and IV of the Act together form the core of the legislation.

Part 111 covers arbitration procedures and their determination of compensat ion. This

part confir ms princi ples already established in The Mines Act, that no operator has a right to enter on or use the surface of any land without the written agreement of the owner or occupant, or unless authorized by an order of the Surface Rig hts Board. To facilitate the process, a standard form of lease will be prescribed by the regulation under the Act. All agreements reached between an operator and an owner shall be filed with the board and shall be available for inspection at the offices of the board.

Where agreement on compensation cannot be reached by the two parties, application may be made to the board to resolve the dispute and the board may then proceed to hold a hearing. After considering the evi dence at the hearing, which is to be given under oath, the board may issue an order granting all or part of the

Wednesday, 15 December, 19 82 rights applied for subject to payment of compensation by the operator In determining com pensation. the board is required to consider a number of factors. including the value of the land. having regard to its present use; loss of the use of the land; the loss of the land that may be per manently damaged; the increased costs to the owner or occupant by reason of the works of the operator; nuisance. inconvenience. disturbance or noise and any other matter peculiar to each case. including the cumulative effect. if any.

Cost of any proceedings of the board shall be borne by the oper ator including. not only the costs of the owner-occupant, but costs 0f any person who may be called to contribute to the proceedings. Prior to the hearing the board may grant to the operator an interim order for surface rights after seven clear days notice has been given to the owner occu pant. providing that the board is satisfied that any undue hardship on the operator, resulting from not gr anting such an interim order. outweighs any prejudice to the interests of the owner-occupant.

An owner-occupant or operator may apply to the board for a variation of the com pensation payable under any agreement which grants surface rights. By virtue of this Act. the Act is made retroactive to cover all pre-existing surface leases and permits a review by the board of com pensation payable. Furthermore, such a review may be repeated every three years.

Part IV of the Act deals with the question of aban donment and restoration of surface rights. In the first place. an operator propo sing to abandon or surrender part. or all of any surface rights. must give at least six months notice of the intention to do so to the surface owner-occupant and the board and shall deposit with the board such security as prescribed by regulation. The size of the security deposit will be sufficient to ensure appropriate cleanup and restoration in the event of default by the operator.

In order to comp lete his obligations regarding abandonment and restoration. four options are avail able to the operator; 1. The operator can restore the surface to the sati faction of the owner-occupant; 2. The operator can agree with the owner-occtipant to make a payment in lieu of restoration. However, where the owner-occupant is not satisfied with the state of restorat ion of the land, the operator either may; 3. Apply to the board to determine the matter, whe reupon the board may hold a hearing and issue an order: (

a) requ iring the operator to restore the sur face as specified in the order, (

b) authorize the owner to restore the surface of the land in the manner set forth in the order, and order to the operator to pay the costs of the operation. or (

c) order the operator to pay a sum of money to the owner-occupant in lieu of restoration: or 4. Wh ere no appl ication has been received by the board to determine the matter. the operator may request the board to issue a certificate relieving it of any further obligations. The obligation of the operator is not terminated until one of these conditions has been met and only then is the security deposit returned to the operator.

Where the owner-occupant are dissatisfied with the state of restoration and the 264 operator has not been relieved of obligations. under any of the four conditions set out above. the operator has a continuing obligation for a period of 1 O years. There is a further requirement under

Part IV that the operator has a continuing obligation to pay compen sation until all caveats registered by the operator against the land, under The Real Property Act and The Regis try Act, have been discharged, relea sed or quitclaimed.

Part V of the Act establishes liability of an operator for any wrong ful, injurious or illegal act. which results in loss or damage to the land or an owner. whether comm itted by the operator or any of the operator's employees. servants, agents or persons performing work or providing services to the operator. Where the operator and owner-occupant cannot agree on com pensation for such damage, the board shall hear and dcter'mine the merits of the claim and amount the :> .::npensation or damages to be paid by the operator. Under

Part VI, appeal against any order of the board may be made with leave of a judge of the Court of Appeal, but only on a question of law or a question concerning the jurisdiction of the board. Agai n, with leave of a judge, an appeal may be made to the Court of Queen's Bench by any person affected by an order awarding comp ensation in excess of an amount to be fixed by regulation. The final part of the Act,

Part VII, is general in nature and covers a number of points; principle among which is the authority granted to the Lieutenant-Governor in-Council to make regulations for the purposes of, inter alia, prescribing forms, amount in terms of cash deposits, the intervals and manner of payment of compensation, prescribing forms of ag reement lease between operators and owner-occupants.

Section 55 of this part places a limit of three months on the operator as a time in which the operator must exercise the right guaranteed by an order for right of entry.

Section 67 provides for a penalty of $1 O for every day an operator fails to file a lease ag reement. Requirements are also set out for the destruction of weeds and for the preservation of tops oil. Finally, wh ere an owner or occupant of the land cannot be ascertained, or his or her whereabouts determined, the board may grant permission for an operator to enter on the land subject to deposit with the board of an appropr iate sum of money. Simi larly, this procedure can be foll::>wed in the case where an operator cannot ascertain or de termine the wherea bouts of the mineral rights owner.

Before I close on this subject, I wou ld like to thank the efforts of people in the southwest on this matter. I believe that the people who have come together in the Surface Ri ghts Assoc iation have worked very hard to make their case known in a reasonable way. I believe they have interacted well with Mr. Nugent ir. his inquiry. I think Mr. Nugent did a good job with the commission. I believe that the oil industry has responded in a reasonable manner with respect to a very com plex and old issue that has been festering for some time now in the southwest of Manitoba.

Hopefully, this will be a step in clearing it up or ameliorating it somewhat. I don't expect that this will be perfection, but I do expect that everyone will continue to work with

Wednesday, 15 December, 1982 goodw ill and co-operation in trying to work on this issue. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Tuxedo, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, would you call Bill Nos. 8, 9 and 13 , in that order please. BIL L NO. 9 - THE PARTN ERSHIP ACT HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK presented Bill No. 9,

An Act to amend The Partnership Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. DEPUTY SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister for Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLAS CHUK: Thank you. Mr. Speaker. The present Partn ership Act which was enacted in 19 65 was considered at that time to be an excel lent statute and today it is sti ll adequate. It defined the rights and obligations of persons who entered into an agreement to carry on busi ness as one firm.

At the same time. it permitted the rules of equity and com mon law applicable to partnerships to continue in force. if there was no inconsistency with the statute. It is com mon ground that the economic climate in Canada and in Manitoba undergoes rapid changes, making it difficult at times for appropr iate legislation to keep pace with some of these changes. Income tax laws are constantly changing and the areas of trade and com merce continue to tax and challenge respec tive laws in these areas.

If gover nment, through its legislation, is to keep abreast of the ever-changing marketplace, then it is essential to amend our laws accord ingly. It is to this end that this bill is presented to the House. These amendments codify some of the existing case law and authorize present departmental policies relating to partnerships. There is no change in the substantive law. Sections 3 and 5 of the bill are declaratory and set out the rights and liabilities of the partners with respect to the partnership itself. and between the partnership and its creditors.

These proposals are similar to those in The Partnership Acts of Ontario and Saskatchewan. I, therefore, recommend this bill to the honourable members for their careful consideration. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for La 265 ��- Verendrye that debate be adjourned on this bill. MOTION presented and carried MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I call Bill No. 13 ,

An Act to amend The Business Names Reg istration Act. BILL NO. 13 - THE BUSINES S NAMES RE GISTRA TION ACT HON. J. BU CKLASCHUK presented Bill No. 13,

An Act to amend The Business Names Reg istration Act for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLA SCHUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, there have been no substantial amend ments to The Business Names Reg istration Act since its enactment in 19 65. The pri mary objective of this Act is to require persons carrying on business in a name other than their own or in a partnership, to register that name with the Corporations and Busi ness Names Branch of my department.

This registra tion enables members of the public to ascertain the name of the person or persons carrying on a particular business. Proposed amendments are mainly for administra tive pu rpo ses and complem ents the pr oce dural changes proposed by Bill No. 8,

An Act to amend The Corporations Act. One of the changes proposed by these amendments is that the Director of the Corpora tions and Business Names Branch will be authorized to carry out the duties under the Act, duties which are presently carried out by delegated authority. The other sign ificant change, also an administrative one. is to be found in Sect ion 10 of the bill. This change would permit the introduction of an auto mated system for record keeping. The present provi sion is anachronistic. as it deals only with the keeping of records manually.

I recommend this bill to the honourable members for their consideration and adoption. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Question? The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the Minister could explain the difference between a partnership and a limited partnership? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honou rable Govern ment House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: This is not the occasion for a ques tion of that kind; that may be raised in debate. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker. I move. seconded by the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. that debate be adjourned on this bill. MOTION presented and carried.

Wednesday, 15 December, 19 82 MR. DEPUTY SPEA KER: I call Bill No. 8,

An Act to amend The Corporations Act BILL NO. 8-T HE CORPORATIONS ACT HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK presented Bill No. 8.

An Act to Amend The Corporations Act. for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Than k you, Mr. Speaker. The present Corporat ions Act was brought into force on November 1. 19 76. It may benefit newer members of the Leg islature if I mention that this Act is similar to The

Canada Business Corporat ions Act and was recommended to the Legislature by a non-partisan special comm ittee comprised of some of the most knowledgeable corpor ate lawyers in Manitoba.

This Act was designed to streamline corporate procedu res for the benefit of the business person, the public and the solicitor to provide maximum possible disclosure in all areas by corporations; to dispense with meaningless formalities; to permit more efficient utilization of staff time in the Corporations and Busi ness Names Branch and provide faster service to the public and to make the law more responsive to the modern day marketplace. These object ives have been, to a large extent, real ized. This is illustrated by the fact that Saskatchewan, New Brunswick. Ontario.

Alberta and British Colum bia have followed Manitoba's example and the other jurisdictions are studying the Manit oba and federal experience. However, as in any statute of the signif icance and impact as The Corporations Act, experience in prac tice has brought to light a number of drafting anomal ies and inconsistencies. It is with a view to remedying these that this bill is now presented to the House for its consideration. I therefore recommend this bill to the honourable members for their consideration and adoption. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mber for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker.

I really would. for clari fication, appreciate the Minister indicating what the drafting anomalies are. I mean, that would normally be expected when he introduces the bill, rather than just referring to drafting anomalies. Could he at least list some for us? MR. DEPUTY SPEA KER: Are you ready for the ques tion? The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: The drafting anomalies. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Govern ment House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: The drafting anomalies with which the bill is intended to deal are, of course, contained in the bill.

The member can ascertain that information 266 simply by reading the bill. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the fact that the government doesn't want to answer this ques tion, or the Minister. and the Government House Leader is attempting to, but the fact of the matter is that I've read the bill and there are more than just drafting anomalies being changed. So I would like him to indicate which are the drafting anomalies. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Point of order. Order please. The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the memb er is engaging in debate on the bill and truly he's exhausted his oppor tunity to speak if he sat down and his next opportu nity is when we get back to debate on the legislation. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Me mber for St. Norbert that debate be adjourned on this bill. MOTION presented and carried. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Deputy Speaker, would you please call Bill No. 15 ? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I call Bill No. 15 ,

An Act to Amend The Highway Traffic Act. HON. S. USKIW: I want to apologize to the Member for Tuxedo. I assumed that he had comple ted his comments but he tells the House tha t he was in the midst of his comments, so I want to retract my interjection. BIL L N0. 15 - THE HIG HWAY TRAFFIC ACT HON. S. USKIW presented Bill No. 15 ,

An Act to amend The Highway Traffic Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, before I begin my comments I would like to indicate to members oppo site that I do have copies of my text for their conven ience which, hopefully, will assist them in analyzing the document itself in more detail.

The bill deals with several amendments to various sections of The Highway Traffic Act which refer to mopeds, driver licence replacements, students from out of province, lighting on farm machinery, height and width requirements of vehicles, rear-view mirrors, load securing devices and certain changes to the penalty sections. It is propo sed that the definition of a "moped" be changed to include three-wheeled vehicles which conform to all of the requirements of a moped and should not be excluded by sheer definition. Licensing of drivers duplicate licences.

The Act requires that first-time applicants for a driver's licence be required to prov ide proof of identity to obtain their

Wednesday, 15 December, 1982 licence. However, when applying for a replacement of a driver°s licence there is presently no statutory requirement for the applicant to produce proof of identity and it is proposed that such satisfactory proof shall be produced before a duplicate licence would be issued.

As the law presently stands, a student from another jur isdiction in Canada or the Un ited States, who is temporarily residing in Manitoba for the pu rpose of attending on a full-time basis a university, college or technical school and is properly licensed in his or her own jurisdiction, may drive a vehicle in this province without being licensed under the Act. It is proposed that the Act be amended to include students from other countries who are in the province in like circum stances to also drive motor vehicles in the province without being licensed under the Act.

There are pres ently more than 10 0 agricultural students from Euro pean countries doing agricultural studies here on an international exchange program each year. Such an amendment would be in line with the Province of Sas katchewan and Alberta, as well.

In addition to the lighting requirements of the Act dealing with farm tractors and self-propelled farm machinery we would require that such machinery being operated on a highway at night be eq uipped with flashing amber lights and where an implement of farm machinery or a special mobile machine is being towed along a highway at night the implement or mobile machine shall display reflectors both front and rear. Also some changes with respect to weight restric tion provisions, Mr. Speaker.

In addition to the weight restriction provision regarding the ma ximum gross weight allowed on the steering axle assembly as pro vided in the regulation, would not apply to motor vehi cles and road building machinery equipped with a V-plow or a one-way plow when the vehicle is moving with the plow in the up position. The penalty section. With respect to excess weight the current penalty of $3 per 50 kilograms of over weight, which was established as far back as 19 67, is now consid ered to be inadequate.

It is proposed that this be amended to $10 per 50 kilograms of overweight which would reflect a more realistic penalty. It is noted that Alberta has implemented a similar fine level and Saskatchewan is propos ing to do the same. With respect to weight restrictions and prosecu tions. a certificate test ifying the accuracy of a scale and to be used in any prosecution under this Act formerly was required to bear a date thereon not more than one year after or before the date of the alleged offence.

The Federal Department of Weights and Measures has now amended this requirement to every two years and the proposed amendment reflects that change. Vehicles under permit. It is presently required that any permit issued shall be carried with the vehicle or object to which it refers and be open to inspect ion. This is to be amended so that the permit shall either be with the vehicle or object to which it refers, or the person in charge of the vehicle or object shall be in a possession of the valid permit numb er identifying the actual permit.

Thus, should the permitee be stopped enroute to the weigh stat ion, this amendment would allow him to provide a valid permit number of the permit that is awaiting him at the destination point. Vehicles under permit with respect to penalties - a revision to the fine

schedule to bring it in line with other proposals for increased funds; it's merely an updating. The Act provides that no driver of a motor vehicle or operator of a bicycle shall, while operating the vehicle or bicycle on a highway, listen to a radio or recording by means of radio headphones on both ears. This is being amended to read, "where radio headphones, which are used for the purpose of listen ing." The present legislation requires enforcement agencies to prove an individual is listening to the broadcast and makes enforcement difficult. With respect to suspension for failure to satisfy a judgment.

This presently refers to "damage to prop erty in excess of $1 00.00." This is to be amended to "damage in excess of $500," thus bringing it in line with now reportable damage amount of $500.00. With respect to suspension in the case of an acci dent, a change in the like amount from $10 0 to $500 is also in line with the foregoing. Suspension in case of accident.

This amendment provides that a suspension shall not be imposed when a letter is produced from the Manitoba Public Insu rance Corporation showing that the driver is covered under the insurance provided by his driver's licence as he was unaware that the vehicle was uninsured. Suspension in case of accidents. This

section is amended so that reference to damage exceeding $10 0 read "damage exceeding $500.00." With respect to dimensions of vehicles, an amend ment to the maximum permissible vehicle of 2.6 meters, allowing a mere extension limited to 20 cen timeters on each side and load-securing devices limited to 10 centimeters on each side. This measure has already been adopted in the Province of Sas katchewan .-(I nterjection)- the member says, "How many inches is that?" Heaven knows. Security for damages caused by an accident. This

section is being amended because of claims arising out of bodily injury or death, from $45,000 to $90,000; and in claims arising out of loss or damage to property to $1 0,000 from $5,000, reflecting 90 percent of the new $1 00,000 minimum coverage. Maximum speed for self-propelled farm machinery, · an additional to the Act restricting the speed of self propelled farm machinery equipped with high flota tion tires to not more than 70 kilometres per hour. Now on that last point, Mr.

Speaker, the problem that we are facing is the fact that many people are using high flotation tires, which have a factory-determined max imum speed limitation imprinted on them, but where people are, in fact, violating that provision of standard and are, in fact, creating a risk situation on the high way system within the Province of Manitoba. We want to make it abundantly clear that there are tremendous dangers involved and that there will be penalties imposed if people abuse that provision. 267 Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order to ask the Min ister a couple of qu estions for clarification?

Wednesday, 15 December, 19 82 MR. SPEAKER: For clarification. the Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would ask the Minister if his amendment on three-wheeled vehicles resolves the problem that has been before us on licensing of such three-wheeled vehicles as the Happy Wanderer that had been used by handicapped citizens in the province? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker. I'm not certain that it does.

This particular amendment does not deal with the whole list of items that the comm ittee representing the interests of the handicapped have been dealing with, or have been recommending, or making recom mendation to the department on. That is something for a future time, Mr. Speaker. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just one further question.

Do the amendments resolve the problem that was drawn to the Minister's attention last year in springtime. of difficulties that custom applica tors of fertilizer products had in road use of flotation tire equipped fertilizer-spreading equipment as a veh icle of farm use. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, this bill will make it mandatory that people using modified eq uipment with certain kinds of high-flotation tires must not exceed certain speed limits and that's for the safety of the public. I'm not sure if that is the item the member is addressing at the moment: there are other issues, as well. MR.

SPEAKER: The Hono

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-2-10
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 2nd hansardpdf 10.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d009321e51a4405893d1d2e0af2c4bc49b1abeba

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