VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, MARCH 30, 1981 NO. 20 .. .,

March 30, 1981 The House met at 3:00 P .H. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Tape No. 743 NM - 1 Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS: The han. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry), Sir, and it has to do with the marketing of power from the Lower Churchill, if indeed the government ever gets the Lower Churchill project launched, off the launching pad.

Would the minister inform the House if it is correct that Atlantic Energy Corporation has the excfusive rights to market power, or power generated at the Lower Churchill project? MR. BARRY: No, it is not right, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: As a matter of fact it is the height of nonsense. MR. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: will remember that A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the han. Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman F.D. Roosevelt, Jr., and his lawyer visited Newfoundland during the Moores years, when Mr.

Peckford was then Minister of Mines and Energy, and they entered into some kind of an agreement. Now would the hon. gentleman care to tell the House what that agreement was? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, there is no agreement between the Government of Newfoundland and the gentleman referred to or any of his friends or colleagues. What­ ever discussions were held between the Premier of the day and the gentleman you referred to, that is between the Premier of the day and the gentleman you referred to.

But as far as this government is concerned, as far as the Premier,who 2109 •..

., March 30, 1981 Tape No. 743 NM- 2 MR. BARRY: was then minister, is acl'lCeDlf!d, and as far as myself as ~.inister of ~.ines and Energy, there is nothing in the way of Order-in~, or a signed agreenent or anything that I have ever seen that indicates in any way that there is anything that could even be reuctel.y considered an agreement of the nature that the neri:ler refers to. MR. NEARY: .I ask a fillal supplementary then, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEARER (Simrs): A suppl.a!entary, the. 'hal. I!E!!1ber for LaPoile. !IR.

NEARY: Well, do I understand new the hen. gentlanan correctly when'-be:-.says that Atlantic Energy Corporation does not have an oral. cc:mnitment, an oral agreanent, or a written ag1'eE!Ielt, with Newfolm:ll.aDd Hydro, with the Newfourrlland· government to market power fran the LcJI.Jer Orurchi.ll am there is no way that: l!lr. Roosevelt, or Atlantic Energy Cmparaticn can take this goveJ:ment to court for breach of contract as was indicated in a television progL&tm= there some ~ ago and Mr.

Rcosevelt qooted. in the newspaper as saying that if the goveLiment did not live up to this:~agreerent that they would be taJcen~~to court? There is no way that that can happen, is that what the hen. gentleman is telling the House!' MR. SPEliEER: '!he :000.. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the hen. !IBIIber c:culd take this goveLillreilt to court, the gentleman that the IIBitler refeLs to could take this goveLimellt to court , anybody can take this goveLDI!'eilt to court. W:inning in court is another thing.

As far as I am canceLiled the gentlenan in question does not have the rarotest thing upon ....nidl to base a bm:each of contLact action. As far as I am conc:eLned as minister, I will never as minister rea:mtend paying any a:mnissi.cn 2110 " " .,

March 30,1981 Tape No. 744 AH-1 MR. BARRY: to a middl~~an. That was the way a previous government and governments from 1949 to 1971 operated. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: We do not operate that way. We are our own middlenan .. Mr. Speaker, not only are we middleu~n, we have the upper ground captured as well.

And we will not, we will not agree to the payment of any commission or fee,or whatever you want to call it, .. , of the nature that the member refers to and if anybody wants to get any money out of this government the only way they are going to do it is to take us to court and they better have a good case prepared because we are going to fight it to the distance. MR. NEARY: A final supplementary. MIL SPEAKER (Simms) ; A final supplementary. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, now the hon. qentleman has put a new twist on-the last answer he gave me kind of put a new twist on it.

The hon. gentleman says that anybody could take the government to court. Well,anybody cannot take the government to court unless they have justifi~ation for it, some reason for it. MR. THOMS: Those against the spray cannot. MR. NEARY: Except those who oppose the spray programme and the matacil, they cannot take the government to court or any of the contractors. MR. BARRY: Yes, they can. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: No, they cannot. They cannot get a court injunction. MR. BARRY: Well,that is something else. 2111 ...

March 30,1981 Tape No. 744 AH-2 MR. NEARY: But anyway,the hon. gentleman , he sort of playing with words in answering my last question, implied that there may be a possibility that Atlantic Energy could take the government to court because the y feel they have some kind of an oral commitment or an oral agreement or a written agreement with Newfoundland Hydro or the Newfoundland governmen~. Now could the hon. gentleman tell the House this, have Mr.

Roosevelt and/or his company or any of the representatives of that ~ompany been in touch in recent months with the government to ask them to live up to their commitment that was made by Mr. Moores, the former Premier of this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): and Energy. MR. BARRY: The hon. Minister of Mines Mr. Speaker 1 anybody can go in with a half-baked court case and initiate it. Now it may be thrown out immediately as being frivolous, or it may be fought and be thrown out ultimately after the hearing of evidence when a judge brings down a decision,but anybody can commence a court action against government.

And the hon. member is going to have to ask the gentleman he refers to,or the corporation he refers to,as to what his plans are to take government to court. Have him feel free,if he believes that he in some way has been wronged or has some contractual arrangement with government, have him feel free. What I am saying to the member opposite is that as far as government is concerned there is no contract, there is not even the slightest evidence upon which one could con­ strue that there is or interpret that there might be a contract between the Atlantic Energy Corporation and government. There is nothing to it ,Mr.

Speaker. 2112

March 30, 1981 Tape 745 PK - 1 MR. BARRY: Energy Corporation and government. There is nothing to it, Mr. Speaker. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Now on the second part of the question was the - MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: Have they been back looking around? Have they been back looking? I am not aware, Mr. Speaker, in the last several months, in recent months. There was communication early in the life of this administration, I believe, and it was dealt with quite quickly and dismissed out of hand as being nothing but complete nonsense, the height of nonsense, as I said earlier. MR. SPEAKER (Mr.

Simms): The hon. member for Windsor- Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Environment (Mr. Dawe), and it is re the ~eveJ.onment of Cat n~M in as far as the environmental aspects of the projectare concerned. MR. BARRY: MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. You have read the act now,have you?

I have the Act in front of me, I want to ask the minister- the Act says, "The purpose of the Act is to facilitate the wise management of the natural resources of the Province and to protect the environment and quality of life of the people of the Province." And Clause (6) here says, "Every proponent" - and Newfoundland Hydro in this case is the proponent - "shall before proceeding with the final design of an undertaking notify the minister in writing on a prescribed form concerning the proposed undertaking" - the proposed undertaking in this case is Cat Arm River.

I would ask the minister has Newfoundland Hydro to this point in time notified the minister on the prescribed forms in writing of their 211 3 .,j .. .., .,

March 30, 1981 Tape 745 PK - 2 MR. FLIGHT: intentions to develop the Cat Arm River? MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Simms) : The hon. Minister of Environment. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, the Cat Arm project has been registered with our department. The prescribed form, I am not even sure if they were available at the time the Cat Arm project began.

Whether that is the case or not 1 my department and this government have indicated to the people of this Province 1 through this particular piece of legislation which the hon. member referred to, and the establishment of a Department of the Environment 1 its concern about developments that effect resources and how they effect the environment in this Province, and my department and the government are cormnitted to ensuring that all necessary is done to protect both the physicial environment and the social environment of this Province.

Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro have submitted to our department an environmental impact statement, and it has been reviewed as per the conditions of the Environmental Assessment Act, and that process is ongoing. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: member for Windsor-Buchans. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the han. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure if the minister is not ahead of himself a little bit in the environment because what the Act says is the proponent,Newfoundland Hydro, has to notify the minister in writing.

Following Clause (7) says, "The Minister shall examine or cause to be examined the information to determine whether an environmental impact statement is required, whether the environmental impact statement may not be required." What I want to ask the minister iswhether or not at this point 211 4 " .. .. ,

March 30, 1981 Tape 745 PK - 3 MR. FLIGHT: based on the information that he received from Newfoundland Hydro re the Cat Arm development, has the minister indicated to Newfoundland Hydro whether or not an environmental impact statement is required? 211 5 "· " ..

March 30, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : ment. MR. DAWE: Tape No. 746 EL - 1 The ho n. the Minister of Environ- Mr. Speaker, I think I have already indicated that not only was it transmitted to Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro that an environmental impact statement was re­ quired but the terms of reference were drawn up by my department and Hydro has in fact prepared that environmental impact state­ ment. It is now a public document. It is available for anyone to see. Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro suggested what it would do and some mitigated measures that it would take as it related to the Cat Arm oroject.

This environmental impact statement has been reviewed by an assessment committee and the report is now in to me and is just ongoing under normal circumstances. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. ·member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the minister is making a mockery of his own legislation. All that Newfoundland Hydro, all that Newfoundland Hydro has submitted to government to this point in time, Mr. Speaker, is the

summary of thi.rteen or four­ teen preliminary, very preliminary investigations of Cat Arm and its potential for environmental damage. They have not submitted an impact study, an impact environmental assessment as is required under this act and the minister knows they have not. So, Mr. Speaker, if the minister is going to accept this as an environmental impact statement, then the Cat Arm development is going to go ahead without the benefit of an en­ vironm.ental study as required by the act. And I want to ask the minister now Mr.

Speak.er 1 if Cat Arm, as far he is concerned, as far as his department is concerned, can the Cat Arm development now go ahead with no more environmental studies? Are they accepting, is he 2116 "• •!, ..

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 746 EL - 2 MR. FLIGHT: as ministeraccepting the

summary of the very prel~minaryreports, accepting that and giving the Newfoundland Hydro the go ahead on that project? Is that all he is going to require from Newfoundland Hydro by way of ass­ urances that that project is environmentally safe and environ­ mentally sound? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Environment. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I will try to pick a question out of that. Firs .t of all, I take objection to the inference by the han. member that the piece of legislation is a mockery or in fact that I am making a mockery of it.

I have already indicated that Hydro have in fact done everything that is required under the act. The particular environmental impact statement just held up by the hon. member is the result of follow­ ing the terms of reference that have been laid out by my depart­ ment in order to complete that particular assessment. Whether or not that particular impact statement is acceptable to my department will be determined based on the results of the ass­ essment committee which is now reviewing that statement. The preliminary report of that committee is in to me now and I am looking at it.

Whether Hydro will be required to do an addendum to that impact statement is yet to be seen,but as soon as that whole process has been completed and I either reject or accept that particular impact statement, the 211 7 .. •:,

March 30, 1981, Tape 747, Pagel-- apb MR. DAWE: hon. member as well as all hon. members in this House, the people of Newfoundland,will be informed. MR. SPEAKER(Sirnms): Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour and Manpower.

In view of the growing intensity with respect to labour problems within the Province, and particularly as they relate to the public service, I wonder if the minister can indicate whether therehavebeen any new developments over the weekend, or whether he has taken any initiatives or any initiatives taken by bargaining units presently negotiating with government, and I refer specifically to NAPE with respect to Workers' Compensation and the workers at the College of Trades and Technology,and teachers and nurses? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister o~ Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, with respect to Workers' Compensation, the College of Trades and Technology, in the past week we had a communication dated the 23rd. to the Deputy Minister of Labour and Manpower with respect to resuming negotiations. My Deputy Minister and the Director of Labour Relations, Mr. Noseworthy, I believe as late as Friday the 27th. contacted the chief negotiator for NAPE and enquired as to what he wanted with respect to getting back to the bargaining table as was proposed in his letter.

The chief negotiator for NAPE indicated at that time that he was not ready to go back to the bargaining table, that he wanted to wait for the outcome of negotiations that were ongoing 1 I believe at that time the Warders and the Newfoundland Farm Products worker were a couple of things that were mentioned, so we are maintaining contact on that one and waiting for a change in position of the . 211 8 "

rr March 30, 1981, Tape 747, Page 2 -- apb MR. DINN: negotiating committee for NAPE. With respect to the nurses, there is a conciliation board to be set up. I believe the union, the nurses' union is questioning the appointment of the Treasury Board appointee to that conciliation board and, therefore, that is being held up. With respect to teachers, the conciliation ~vard report is in, both sides have it and we will be awaiting replies, or either confirmation or rejection of the conciliation board's report. MR. LUSH: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER(Sirnms): the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: A supplementary.

The hon. Mr. Speaker, I am wondering if I understood the minister correctly when he said that NAPE rejected the offer to return to the bargaining table; and if so, if that was the case that NAPE did reject, I am just wondering if there were any conditions attached ,to the government's offer of corning back to the bargaining table again? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has difficulty putting words in his own mouth, he certainly should not try to put them in mine. What I said with respect to NAPE was that we received a communication dated the 23rd.

That communication talked about getting back to the bargaining table. The Seputy Minister who received the letter got in contact with NAPE. The Director of Labour Relations, Mr. Noseworthy, got in contact with NAPE. The latest communication was Friday, the 27th. at which point in time there was a discussion 211 9 .. .,, ..

... March 30, 1981 Tape No. 748 AA- 1 MR. J. DrnN: be~ the Director of Labour Relations and the chief negotiator for NAPE 1 I believe, and they talked about the contents of the letter and the idea of getting back to the bargaining table. It was indicated by the chief negotiator for NAPE to the Director of Labour Relations that he was not ready to get back to the bargaining table.

Itwas not a matter of rejection,he was not ready at that point in time to get back to the bargaining table because, he said- a.nd I -cannot give a direct quote 1 I was not a party to the conversation, .. but this was related to me by Director of Labour Relations~ he said in effect that he was not rea~y, he wanted to wait the outcome of warders' negotiations and,I believe~the Newfoundland Farm Products negotiations. That is as clear as I can put it, Mr. Chairman. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, it seems as though I understood the answer in the first instance.

I am just wondering if the minister can give us further in- formation with respect to the teachers. It seems to me that the conciliation board have made their report. Can the minister comment on that ? Have the conciliation beard made their report to the Newfoundland Teachers' Association ? Ifso, what were some of the details of the recommendations from the conciliation board? .. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member does not want me to go through,I am sure,the conciliation board report. .. 2120

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 748 RA - 2 MR. J. DINN: In a short half-hour Juestion Period, I could take up a half an hour - MR. T. LUSH: You do not need to do that. MR. J. DINN: - on that one. With r~spect to the conciliation board report on the teachers, the con­ ciliation board report is in, it has been submitted to both sides of negotiations;I have not received a reply from either side as to whether either side has accepted or rejected the conciliation board report. MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the Premier is absent from the House and the Minister of Fisheries is absent from the House,but in view of the fact that this matter is rather urgent 1 I would like to direct my question to the President of the Council. And it has to do with the heating up of the cod war between Newfoundland and Nova Scotia.

Would the hon. gentleman inform the House if the government had been informed of any reprisals or retaliat­ ions or any sanctions on the part of the government of Nova Scotia with regard to Newfoundland fishermen or Newfoundlanders who go over to Nova Scotia every year to either fish or to work on draggers or work on boats or work in plants ?

Have there been any sigm apart from what we have been hearing on the insults that are flying b~ck and forth across the Gulf by the two ministers, has there been any signs 1 an~ indication, any cornrnunicatior. from the government of Nova Scotia that they intend to take 21 21 "

March 30, 1981 TaJ?e No. 749 DW - l MR. S. NEARY: sanctions against Newfoundland for their vicious attack on the Nova Scotian Government? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the President of the Council. M.R. W. ~.ARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, we just seen a real good example about how alleged and assumed information can be given when a question is asked. It was not a question, it was an exposition of the hon. members assess­ ment of a particular situation. Now, Mr. Speaker, in relation to that 1 the present status I think the hon. member is referring to are certain statements made by the Minister of Fisheries (~x.

Morgan) in relation to the taking of a large portion of the Northern cod for processing in Nova Scotia by a certain fish company. The purpose of the government's concern is not whether or not it is processed in Nova Scotia, whether it.is processed in the Province of Quebec or for that matter in Tanganyika. The concern of this government is that the Northern cod stock,which has been traditionally belonging to the people of this Province continue to belong to the people of this Province, continue to be used and recognized as a basic resource of the people of Newfoundland.

And the Pro­ vince of Newfoundland is not turning its attention, as it were, as the hon. member likes to imply,towards other govern­ ments but towards a fishing company that is carrying on busi­ ness in this Province. And we are determined that any fishing company,or any company for that matter,that is carrying on business in this Province is not going to be able to use the resources that have traditionally belonged to the people of Newfoundland and to our forefathers for another purpose. And i~ the hon. gentleman has objection to that,I would like to see him try to explain it. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. 2122 .. ... ..

March 30. 1981 ~1R. SPEAKER (Simms) : for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Tape No. 749 DW - 2 A supplementary, the hon. member Indeed I do have an objection to it, Mr. Speaker, because, first of all, the hon. President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) did not answer my question. My question had ~o do with protection of Newfoundlanders and Newfoundland fishermen who travel to Nova Scotia. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, fishermen this very day, right at this moment while we are asking questions about this matter in this House,are over fishing three miles off the coast of Nova Scotia and brinrri_ ,...,., their fish back to Newfoundland.

What I am asking the minister on behalf of the government is could he tell us what steps will be taken to protect the draggers and longliners from the Northeast coast and from the Southwest coast that are pre­ sently fishing in area 4T,.which stretches from Cape Ray to Cape North, what protection these fishermen will be given in the even that Nova Scotia retaliates against Newfound­ land, takes sanctions against Newfoundland and attempts to drive these fishermen away from the Nova Scotia coast? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. W. ~ARSHALL: First of all, Mr.

Speaker, it is a hypothetical question. Secondly, as the hon. member well knows the fishermen in Newfoundland to whom he refers have historic rights to these fishing grounds and there has been no indication,and neither will there be any indication that these rights will be affected or, in fact, that they could be affected. Because, as I say, the fishermen to whom he refers,they and their forefathers have been fishing 2123 " .. .,

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 750 EL - l MR. MARSHALL: in those fishing grounds for many years.

The nature of the stand taken by the Government of Newfoundland on t~e other hand with respect to the Northern cod is again to protect historic and basic rights,and these are the historic and basic rights of the fishermen and the people of this Province to the Northern c~tock and this government is determined it is going to pro­ tect thes:e rights and we feel sure that it can be done without any interference into other basic rights which we have and we have traditionally enjoyed and w~ch the hon. member is hoping to be able to, by inference, indicate that ,they might be in jeopardy because we are sta:nd.ing up for the people of Newfound­ land and their rights.

MR. NEARY: A. supplementary, M:r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER ($ i~~s ) : A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY; Mr. Speaker, I could take e~ception to that last remark about inference and ask the han. gentleman to retract it,but I will just let it slide for the sake of sav­ ing a bit of time.

The Nova Scotian government,through its Minister of fisheries, publicly stated that they would take retaliatory action against Newfoundland if the government here continues on this disaster course that they are apparently on now,and I am asking the minister to give assurance to these fishermen,who, at this very moment, are fishing off the coast of Nova Scotia, that they are asked to move away from the coast of Nova Scotia, not to catch fish over there as Nova Scotia has every right to d9 -if Newfoundland has the right, Nova Scotia has the. right -then what action will this government take to protect the rights of the fishermen who are now catching one million pounds of fish a day, one million pounds every twenty- 2124 ...

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 750 EL - 2 MR. NEARY: three hours, one million pounds of fish caught off the Nova Scotia coast is brought back to New­ foundland for processing? What protection do the plant owners, th~ plant workers and the fishermen have in case Nova Scotia retaliates,which they obviously intend to ao? MR. SPEAKE~ (Simms): The hon. the President of the Council. M~. MA~SHALL: Mr. Speak.er, that is triple barrel question, repeating the questions ~hat have been asked before. In the first place, the government is not going to drawn into a dispute or an alleged dispute with the Government of Nova Scotia because of the

interpretation that the hon. gentleman has put on certain statements emanating from certain people. The fact of the matter is, and I reiterate it again, as far as the government is concerned, the government's concern is with this particular company and that this particular company process th .e Northern cod caught in Newfoundland waters in the Province of Newfoundland. Now, the next question he asked is about alleged retaliatory measures that have been taken by the Province of Nova Scotia.

We nope and we have the expectation that, despite what the hon. member for LaPoile (S.Nearyl indicates,that such retaliatory measures will not take place. But we can assure the House, Mr. Speaker, that as far as the government is concerned that the fishermen to whom he refers have historic, traditional and natural rights to the fishing grounds in which they are prosecuting the fisheries 2125 .. .. ..

March 30,1981 MR. MARSHALL: in Nova Scotia, and we - MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: 'rape No. 751 AH-1 right now,off the Georgian Bank 4T is not the Georgian Bank. Well,in that area. And we,Mr. Speaker - Sidney Bight. - with equal zealousness in addition to that,Mr. Speaker , with equal zealousness will protect the rights of the people of Newfoundland to their traditional resource , that is,the ~orthern cod. MR. SPEAKER ( S imrns) : The hon. member for Windsor- Buchans. MR.FLIGHT: Thank you,Mr. Speaker.

I want to follow the line of questioning with the minister for a moment .if you would, the earlier questions in starting the Question Period. We are obviously running out of time. MR. SPEAKER: Which minister? ~m. FLIGHT: The Minister of the Environment. And I want to ask the minister, based on what he has seen now, based on the fact that he has had an environmental impact statement from Newfoundland Hydro,and based on the fact that it is a

summary of thirteen preliminary statements, has the minister seen anything in it or is he considering following

Section 23 of the Act and asking con9erned people to write letters with regard to their concerns on the Cat Arm development? And for the purpose of time,has the minister seen anything in the environmental impact statements submitted by Hydro- and one has to remember that that statement was submitted by Hydro~the people who want to develop Cat Arm - has he seen anything that would require him to appoint an Environmental Assessment Board as required under the act?

At this point in time in his perusing the report from Hydro, has heseen anything that would have him consider appointing an Environmental Assessment Board or asking concerned citizens if they have any interest in the project? 2126 ., .. ''· " .. ,

March 30,1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Environment. MR.DAWE: Tape No. 751 AH-2 The hon. the Minister of the It is nice to see that the hon. member is concerned about time. Mr. Speaker, the process is laid out in the act. It has several steps in it that are proceeded in a time sequence. The hon. membEr indicated that I may be ahead of myself on the assessment.

Well 1 in this case I am proceeding as per the act and the process is that the impact statement has been submitted, it has been reviewed, the acceptability of the statement 1 which is not necessarily for the hon. member's benefit, an acceptance of whether it is or is not environmentally sound but an acceptance of the statement has yet to be given to Hydro one way or another. That is the next process.

Once that statement is satisfactory to the department 1it is evaluated and at that point in time a decision is made whether the project can go ahead based on a number of conditions or whether in fact it has enough concern about a particular item or a number of particular items to call for a public hearing process. But that decision, those decisions will be made as the process continues in its normal manner. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, a short one. The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: It is only short,Mr. Speaker.

Would the minister indicate to the House, tell the House how long his department has had this impact statement from Hydro? At what point, when did the Department of the Environment and the minister receive this environmental impact statement from Newfoundland Hydro and how long have they had to determine what they are going to do about it 1 having regard to the act? 2127 "• ''· "· ..

March 30, 1981, Tape 752, Page l -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Simms): the Environment. MR. DAWE: The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, I am not sure of the exact date. If I remember correctly it is somewhere in the neighbourhood of approximately five to six weeks . MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Before we proceed with routine matters,! want to make an apology to the Chair related to the adjournment of the Address in Reply last week, last Tuesday, in fact. The Chair understood that the hon. the member for Humber West (Mr. BaiT.a)at the time had moved adjournment of the House.

In fact, in checking with Hansard - and, of course, the Chair put the motion to adjourn,which is always in order- but in checking with Hansard afterwards I found that he did, in fact, move adjournment of the debate,which was also somewhat unusual. In any event, the matter has been discussed wtih the hon. the member for Humber West and he has assured me that to resolve any problem that might arise, he is prepared to indicate that he has completed his speech so that when the next time the Address in Reply is called I will recognize an hon. member to my right.

I just want to say it now rather than have it lying around my desk all afternoon. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Yes. So we can carry on as we are doing today, yes. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Order 2. Committee of Supply. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 2128 ... " .. .,

March 30, 19_8.1, Tape 752, Page 2 -- apb COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt): Order, please! Shall the resolution carry? MR. NEARY : Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, it is only right and proper that when the government asks the House to give it interim supply of one-third of this year's budget, over $448 million, it is only right a.nd proper that the government , the ministers, should give the House at least a little bit of information, give the House some information as to why they need $448 million .

And they should give the House some information on the running of their departments . For instance , Mr. Chairman, it is a.n ideal time now, while we are debating interim supply, it is an ideal opportunity for the Minister of Mines and Ene_r_gy (Mr . Barr ·y), to give us a run-down, to give us the first report, the only report that we have had in this House. We have no more idea than the man in the moon of what is happening to the petroleum 2129 ., I ... ~ .. ·:·

Mardl 30, 19 81 Tape No. 753 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: Directorate since it was established. And here is a golden q:.portunity - MR. BARRY: Flourishing and thriving. MR. NEARY: Ah, he tells us it is flourishing and thriving. Well , according to what we can hear, Mr. Chai.nrlan, indeed that is true. The !lellbers of the Dizectcrate are flourishing and thriving according to what we hear about the big salaries, and the big c:c:rmtissicns, and the travelling of the Petroleum Direct:o:rate.

I am sure that the strikers at the .College of Trades am Teclmology, and the strikers doio.n. 'at the Workers' C'al;le!lsaticn will be interested to leam of the salaries that are being paid to the Petrolet.m Directorate. But it is a great opportunity, Mr. Olainran, for the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Bany) to give a brief first report to this House.

That :Petroleum Directorate has been in place r011 for over a year and we are entitled, we have net had a report in this Hoose and we are entitled to have sare infOIIration on this Directorate- what it does, hew many enployees r011 make up the erpire, the PetroleiD Directorate enpire, hew IIUlCh travelling they do, hcw many are oo. a contractual basis, what salaries they :receive, ~t cxmnissions, if any, they receive, and what they oo? What indeed they oo? We are entitled to have that infonnatian, Mr.

Olab:man, before we approve interim supply as we have to do before the eea4tine of ta!X:lrrow e:wning or ta!X:lrrow night at midnight I think the govemnent nas to have interim supply to pay its bills. NQI, Mr. Chail:man, why oo I raise this matter? Well I raise this natter,nunber oo.e,because we have never had a report en the Directorate. And nmtler ~, they seem to be doing exactly as they please. They are holding semi:oars whenever they feel like it. MR. BARRY: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY::.; Nc, Mr. cabot Martin, who speaks smetil!es for theDirectorate and for the govenment, and Mr. Millan -Mr.

Millan, who is a p\lblic servant, who has been enunciating the governnent 'policy, Cbes not dleck with ~ hen. gentleman 'ttlen be makes his stateoent. 2130 "· "

l!fardl 30, 1981 Tape No. 753 NM- 2 MR. BARRY: I = a tight shop. MR. NEARY: 'lbe hal. gentleman OOe5 not run a tight shop. If he OOe5 then I would like to hear him explain why it is that Mr. Millan has gone off and pioneered gove:mrent policy at the speeches that he is ualdng aroand various parts of Newfoundland and an the television and en the radio and in the ra;spapers, a public servant, The first tilre I SqlpOSe since Confederation, ar the seoand tilre - Mr. Martin is the big culprit but Mr. Millan is equally as bad. So they have all these IIEIIliDars going, Mr.

Chail:man, to tell the ""llewfoundland pecple, we have had a saninar now en just about eve%Ything that you can naxre. A seminar;on this, a seminar en that, they hcwe had a seminar en evexyt:hiD:J except an hew many times you should go to the bathman a day. But I will tell you MJ.at gets ne about tiE saninan, Mr. Olail:mm, is this; they sey all the seminars axe geared up - they sey, "We have got to have a seminar an this so that Newfomdlanders will not change their lifestyle: ' I wish sarebody 'WOUld explain that tone.

You have these millionaires and these billionaires down at the Holiday Inn, and over at the university, telling" the Newfoundland people, "We have to hold a seminar so you will not change your lifestyle." Now it is all right for than, they have their big mansions and their eJCeCUt.i.ve jets and they have their big, fat, expecse accounts, it is all right for them to have three or fotlr cars in their driveway, it is all right for them to have a CXXldaninian in Flor.i.da., or SCil2 other part of the -warld, and then they care down here and say to us, "The reason 'E axe here is to tell you oot to change your:.·lifestyle." '11le reascn of course, Mr.

Cha.:iJ:man, they do not want us to change our lifestyle is that instead of sore of them being millicnaires they want to bec:are billiooaires. .And evezyone in this Province now is beginning to 21 31 .. , ..

March 30, 1981 T~ No. 753 NM- 3 MR. NEARY: realize tha"t only a handful of people wlll benefit by the oil on the Grand Banks. You have Newiomldlanders IXlW' who are millionaires <1!Zld are not satisfied with tha-t, now they want to becare biJlima.ires. And they are tellii¥] tr.s not to change our lifestyle, to make sm:e that they eo beccme billiQla.ires. Why, Mr. Olaillnan, let me give the House?.an ~le.

I \rellt dam to a garage :recently, only about two 'fliE!eks ago, and cme of the salesi!E!Il in the Shafroan said to me, ''Care out;," he said, "oo the ~, ccme out in the garage, I want to shc7ll you sarething." So I liB1t out and this car was up on the rcmp and the salesman said to me, "Qm you guess ha.i much tha"t car is wort:h?a MR.~: $96,000. MR. NEARY: And I said, ''No," I Said, "I (X)1ll.d not guess hao1 l!llldl i't is worth, 11 but just. to be c:om:teous and kind to the salestan I 2132 -·-~ ·:' ., ·:' ··~~

March 30, 1981 Tape 754 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: I said',' I will take a guess at it, Is it worth $20, 000?'' I had no idea what it was worth .• He said, "$20,000? $20,000? That car,he said, is $96,ooo;' MR. BARRY: A ~1aserati, is it? MR. NEARY: "It is equipped with a television set, it is equipped with a bar, it is equipped with a telephone". AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: got it? AN HON. MEMBER: How about ear plugs? The han. gentleman said who Not me. MR. NEARY: I would say one of the one's who is going to benefit by the oil, not an ordinary Newfoundlander. A $96,000 car. $96,000 car. MR.

YOUNG: Tell us about your big car? MR. NEARY: Now,~. Chairman, mine was not - no,never mind,I will not take the bait. But, Mr. Chairman, a $96,000 car; now that is an indication to me of who is going to benefit by the oil in this Province. It is not going to be the ordinary Newfoundlander. It is going to be the likes of the gentleman who owns that $96,000 car, who is an employee of Crosbie's Offshore Services, and I would not mind it so badly, Mr. Chairman, but they are getting these $96,000 cars out of the backs of Newfoundlanders who are working off the rigs.

They are collecting $2 an hour for every Newfoundlander who works on two or three of the oil rigs on the Grand Banks. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Two dollars an hour they are getting. I raised this in the House before, another scandal. A~ HON. MEMBER: Not true. 2133 .,J, .. ..

March 30, 1981 Tape 754 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: It is true. They have some kind of an agreement with the companies who own the rigs that they will do the hiring and they will collect $2 an hour for every worker that they put on the oil rigs, that is Harvey's and Crosbie's. M~. BARRY: It is not true. MR. NEARY: It is true. So, Mr. Chairman, I think it is right now and only proper that the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) should give us some facts, give us a few details about this petroleum directorate.

Tell us what they have been up to in the last twelve months or so, since we passed a bill in this House establishing the directorate: How many employees they have, how many are under contract, what kind of an empire they have built up for themselves? They seem to be developing into a law unto themselves. We have the Newfoundland Hydro Corporation 1which is a law unto itself. We have the Public Utilities Board, which is a law unto itself. Now we have the petroleum directorate. And, Mr. Chairman, we would like to know what they are doing. Are they merely enforcing government regulations?

Do they oversee the awarding of contracts? Do they let any contracts themselves? Is there any conflict of interest on the directorate? Doesthe Chairman of the Directorate,for instance,still have his own private consulting company while he is under contract to the Newfoundland Government? If that is so, Mr. Chairman, would that not be a conflict of interest? Or has he relinquished his private contracting company, his private consulting company? Or does he leave whenever he feels like it and go to South America or Central America to look after the jobs that he is doing down there? 2134 ''i " .. .,

March 30, 1981 Tape 754 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: We have aright to know these things, Mr. Chairman. And I believe this is a good opportunity for the hon. gentleman to give us our first report on the petroleum directorate. And having said that I will take my seat hoping that the hon. gentleman will leap up in his place and give us a few details.Or does he expect, do the government expect us to just rubber stamp this half million dollar~ -a half a billion dollars,rather? A half a billion dollars, almost $500 million, do they expect us - MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Butt): expired. The hon. member's time has MR.

NEARY: information? - to rubber stamp it without getting any MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, it is pretty close to the 24th. of May now and like the trout I will rise to the bait and give the hon. member a few answers. AN HON. ~~ER: Give then the facts. MR. BARRY: The petroleum directorate - no, I would not confuse them with facts - the petroleum directorate, Mr. Chairman, is, I believe, doing an admirable job. And not only that,it is not afraid to do its job out in the full glare of publicity.

And instead of practicing the technique employed by previous Liberal Governments in this Province, where everything is done behind closed doors, we have gone so much the other way, Mr. Chairman, that we had a symposium here a couple of weeks ago. And what did we do? Did we have it behind closed doors? Did we haul in all the big-wigs from all the big oil companies and lock them in behind closed doors and make little deals with them behind the 2135 .,, .. ..

March 30, 1991 Tape 754 Pl< - 4 MR. BARRY: scenes, and have all the oil sold for three mils declining to 2 mils over the next sixty years like was done with the Opper Churchill contract? No, Mr. Chairman. What we did was we televised the entire proceedings. We invited these experts and these executives of oil companies , and supply companies, and construction 2136 ·:·I ., .fl ' ':· .l

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 755 DW - 1 MR. L. BARRY: companies that come in from all over the world. We charged them for the privilege of coming in - I think the fee was something in excess of $500 apiece. And, Mr. Chairman, they came in like trout .in droves, we had to beat them away with a stick, had to close off the registration, could not handle them all who wanted to come in here, because they know that this Province has a great energy potential with respect to offshore oil and gas and they want to be where the action is. Now, Mr.

Chairman, we know for that very reason that as long as we have our jurisdiction pre- served and protected and our ownership claim clearly established beyond doubt - and I would ask hon. members to assist us in the process of doing that by calling off their Liberal hacks in Ottawa,_calling off their dogs, their colleagues,who are trying to take this away, take this birthright away from our Newfoundland people 1 and get behind this government in this great fight to preserve this resource.

But, Mr. ·chairman, even though members of the Opposition may not appreciate the value of this resource even though they may be prepared to get up and impede and block and criticize and try and cut down everything positive that is being done tn manage that resource right here in the Province, ~eople in other places of the world, other parts of the world know where the action is. And I think that symposium that was called and the full registration that we had there gave a little indication to these people who were involved in the oil industry and know how important it is to be on the ground floor.

The fact that they came out in full force shows that we are right. The Petroleum Directorate is right in insisting upon, right from day one, proper manage- ment of this resource. 21 3 7 ' ., / .. , ..

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 755 DW - 2 MR. L. BARRY: And, Mr. Chairman, we are not ashamed to say that we are ~utting in the best people we can get in that Petroleum Directorate, people who are knowledgeable about the oil industry,who do not have to take second place to anyone. And, Mr. Chairman, I am proud to say that most of them are Newfoundlanders. A lot of people find it strange that there are Newfound­ landers who have experience in the oil industry. Mr.

Chairman, there are NewfoundLanders working all over the world in the oil industry 1many of whom have not just a few months experience, not just one or two years but they are getting up, Mr. Chairman, into ten years experience­ and a lot of them you will find have about seven or eight years experience. When we started to emphasize oil and gas in the early seventies- 1972, 1973- although the Opposition did not pay any attention, although they just spent all their time getting uo,as they are still doing and saying, 'Oh, go on, boy, go on. i Stop talking about oil and gas. Talk about something else.

That is not im- portant. Only a couple of jobs, no benefit~! I drove him out of the House, Mr. Chairman, I drove him out. He cannot take it. \'Jhen the truth is thrown across at him,he cannot take it. Well, ~x. Chairman, a lot of our young Newfoundlanders, even though the OI?position might not have been listening, a lot of our young New­ foundlanders were listening. And they said to them­ selves, 'Yes, there is going to be a future here in the oil industry'.

And they went away, went to Alberta some of them,and worked in the oil industry there,and others went over to the North Sea and they l'lorked off Norway, worked off Scotland, others went as far as Africa, Indonesia, Mr. Chairman. And a lot of these 2138 .. " .I~ .. ..

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 755 OW - 3 MR. L. BA.~Y : are coming back now. Some of them we have working with us in the Petroleum Directorate, others you will find out on the rigs off the Grand Banks. But, Mr.

Chairman, all of this will be for naught, all of the great expertise that we have built up within this Province, all of the controls that we have put in place to make sure that Newfound­ landers are employed , all of that wL ll go right out tbe window if th is terrible conspiracy continues bet~cen the Opposition and the Liberals in Ottawa to take away control from this Province and hav e it all controlled out of Central Canada, out of Ottawa . You will see then, Mr. Chair - man , where the action is and it will not be here in this Province .

The action will be taking place somewhere els e, whether it will be shipments of goods out of Halifax dir ect to the offshore or whether it be the consulting, the research, all the hig.h technolo gy decisions being taken in Ottawa and all the technological spin-offs staying in Central Canada . You will not see it happen here in this Province. And that is why , Mr . Chairman, we consider it so imoortant to have a good team right here in Newfoundland in 2139 'I .. ' .. •t " .,

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 756 EL - 1 MR. BARRY: the Petroleum Directorate advising our government on how to best manage that resource. And,Mr. Chairman, we take second . place to no one in terms of the regulations that we have in place, in terms of the way that we are insisting that these companies supply us with information, in terms of the way we insist that they come in and get our approval before letting contracts and insisting that they have these contracts let to Newfoundlanders.

If the people are there in the Province, if the businessmen are there or the workers, depending upon the type of job, who can supply what they need, we insist that it be done locally. Now,Mr. Chairman, we are not running any Mickey Mous .e outfit. We are running a first class operation and we recognize that in order to get first class individuals, you have to pay them. And, Mr. Chairman, we are not 'afraid to do that. But, Mr.Chairman, we are not locking the Province in to any long-term contracts,as hon. members were able to do when they were in government for their friends and their cronies and their buddies.

Mr. Chairman, we have contracts, yes, we have contracts. In most cases they are for one year, some cases they go for two years and,Mr. Chairman, it is working and the reason this was done on a contractual basis is that,first of all,when we started putting together the directorate we were not sure as to how much activity th .ere was going to be and how many people we were going to need 1 so we did not want to build up a great bureaucracy that would be there and be unnecessary in the event that we did not get enough oil and gas, enough in the way of discoveries.

We have been fortunate over the last couple of years, Mr. Chairman, it will be two years this August , and we sh.ould have a great - instead of Fourth of July Day, in 2140 " ., .. .

March 30, 1981 Tape NO. 756 EL - 2 MR. BARRY: Newfoundland we should have a Twenty-fourth of August Day, or whatever the date was in Aug­ ust, that the Hibernia P-15 well came in.Because, Mr. Chair­ man, that date is every bit as significant for, not just New­ foundland but for Canada as was the date of the LeDuc well in Alberta which started the great oil and gas boom in Western Canada. So, Mr. Chairman, I say again, we are getting good personnel, we are paying them what we have to pay them in order to attract people, good people. We have to be competitive. We have to be competitive with - MR.

NEARY: Give us the details. Do you have the details? MR. BARRY: I do not carry around, Mr. Chairman, the names and salaries of people and - MR. NEARY: Send and get it. We are qoing to want it (inaudible). MR. CHAIRi ,IA...'\1 (Butt): Order, please! MR. BARRY: - it has never been the practice of giving out individual names and individual salaries in this House. There is a block vote and there is a block vote for the Petroleum Directorate and there are the numbers of people. You can work it out, Mr. Chairman. We do not get into - MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. BARRY: salaries are. MR. LUSH: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR.

LUSH:· Order, please! The hon. minister's time has expired. - individuals and how much their Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman. The hon. the member for Terra Nova. Mr. Chairman, there seems to be a constant and continual thing by the members opposite to attempt to introduce red herrings and put up smoke screens at every turn of the road. My hon. friend and colleague from LaPoile (S.Nearyl 2141 "· .. , ..

March 30, 1981 Tape No . 756 EL - 3 t-IR . LOSH: asked some very serious a.nd some legitimate questions. But all we get, of course, is a tirade on the other side talking about of=shore ow~ership, offshore control. Mr . Chairman, I am not going to allow myself to be sidetracked into that. We on this side have stated where we stand with respect to the offshore,and it is just a red herring. We want to get some answers to some very important questions, some very legitim ate questions before putting through this Interim Pupply measure . Mr .

Chairman, on Friday I raised a question, a very important que stion, a question that may not be affecting the majority of the popu~ation in this Prov­ ince but one that is affecting three hundred unincorporated communities in this Province . Now , Mr . Chairman, when the hon. the House Leader (N . Marshall) got up and referred to the nonsense that was being raised by members opposite, mem- bers on this side,he certainly did not mention that particular point. And, Mr. Chairman, that is an important point, a point that concerns three hundred unincorporated communities in this Province, affecting 2142 'I ., I .. I

March 30, 1981, Tape 757, Page 1 -- apb MR. LUSH: approximately 70,000 to 80,000 people, and, Mr.Chairman, I refer to a measure, I refer to

an act which prevents these people from getting any of the funds that we are today or tomorrow will be giving government permission to spend. None of these communities will be able to get any of this money for fire protection, for waste disposal and for water. These three important services,Mr. Chairman, are denied these people in 300 communities in this Province, and the hon. the House Leader(Mr. Marshall) did not think that important enough to talk about or to reply to.

Well,Mr.Chairrnan, this is an important matter when we are denying monies, when we are denying funds to 300 communities in this Province for these vital public services of fire protection, water and waste disposal areas, or garbage collection, as we refer to it in a lot of the rural Newfoundland area. Mr.2hairman, in my own district I have had a series of major fires in the last year, and because these rules militate and restrict these people from getting these funds, we have had some fatal fires. I venture to say, Mr.Chairman, a recent fire on St.

Brendan's that resulted in the loss of a beautiful church, that if this happened anywhere on the Avalon Peninsula people would be talking about it yet; the losa of a beautiful church,that took the people years and years to build,because they never had the proper fire equipment. I might say that particular incident now has been taken care of. As so often is the case, of course, we look into things after they have happened, it is a matter of locking the barn door after the horse has escaped. And this is the situation in this particular St. Brendan's situation.

Recently in Bunyan's Cove we had three or four homes lost, completely demolished by 2143 .. ..

March 30, 198l, Tape 757, Page 2 -- apb MR. LUSH: fire because these people cannot meet this regulation, and the regulation I am referring to, Mr. Chairman, and I am not going to go into it in detail today, but I do want to bring it up again because it is . an important .matter and something that government can act on immediately,and it is a regulation which requires a majority of home owners to attend a public meeting and to vote to become a local service district. Now, Mr.

Chairman, it is a part of the regulations that accompany the new Municipalities Act that is discr:imina.tory to these approximately 300 communities in Newfoundland and 70,000 to 80,000 people and prevents them from getting a part of the funds that we are allocating to the government today. These people, Mr. Chairman, are discriminated against, and it is a simple act by the government to change this particular act, a very simple thing. Well, it is a regulation that accompanies this regulation (6). lt is regulation (61, Mr.

Chairman, of the local service district regulations and it is a tremendous discr:imina.tory regulation and one that will prevent a majority of communities in this Province from becoming a local service district. And if the government want these people to become local service districts, let them change this regulation, let them change this regulation to enable the 70,000 to 80,000 people living in rural Newfoundland to be able to qualify for some of the funds from some of the public dollars of this Province that presently they cannot qualify for. And, Mr.

Chairman, if the government fail to move on this act it will show, again, their callousness and insensitivity to the people living in rural Newfoundland. It is unfortunate, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) is 2144 "· .. ., .. , •..

March. 30, 19.81, Tape 757, Page 3 - - apb MR. LUSH: not here today to repl y to this and to tell us when the governltlent in.tend to change this regulathm or why they made this stupid regulation in the first place . I think it was a matter of carelessness, I do not think the government really i ntended this act to be the way ... . l.'- l.S. But, Mr.

Chairman, unless this act is changed, and I suggested on Friday what I thought would be an alternative to this regulation which requires the majority of homeowners to attend a meeting and to vote to become a local service district, I suggested that we should have a petition . A petition would serve the same purp~se because all hon . me.'llbers know the difficulty in getting SO per cent of homeowners to attend a public meeting. Now, Mr . Chairman, 2145 ··~· ··; ... I •:, .• ! I "I

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 758 RA - 1 MR. ·T. LUSH: it is more comp~ex than what I had really suggested,because I think the government is planning,in its plans to get regional government, to get four or five communities to become incorporated.

Mr.Chairman, under this present regulation it is difficult enough to get one community- well, it is practically im­ possible to get one community let alone to talk about several communities. and it is the regulation that needs to be changed; it is discriminatory to rural Newfoundland, discriminatory to three hundred communities, discriminatory to approximately 70,000 to 80,000 people in Newfoundland at this moment and prevents them, it prevents them, Mr.

Chairman,from benefitting from the services, the public services that they have a right to expect.And I would hope that the minister when rising will tell us that the government intends to change this particular regulation for the benefit of these people living in the smaller communities in rural Newfoundland. Now, Mr.

Speaker, these people are the backbone of this Province, N~t be­ cause they do not form the majority of the people of this Province does not rrean that we have to continually neglect pecple living in those areas,to deny them from the services that others have, the public services of fire fighting, fire protection, water,and garbage collection that they have a right to ex­ pect. And, Mr.Chairman, I have a hope that the government would move on this most important ~egulation and do some­ thing about it as quickly as possible. Mr.

Chairman, I would also like to know if the minister can give us some idea of what the cost of the government propaganda pro~ gramme has been to promote or to indoctrinate our people about the government stand on the constitution. Because, Mr. Chairman, they have not been trying to ' enlighten 2146 IIi .,,

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 758 RA - 2 MR. T. LUSH: the people . What they have been doing is sending out literature to all parts of the Pro­ vince indoctrinating the people to their own narrow par­ ochial stand, a stand 1Mr. Chairman, that is devisive; it is a stand,Mr. Chairman, illustrates a very narrow pro­ spective of Canada. And I would like to know, I would like to know, Mr. Chairman, what all of this is costing the tax­ payers of this Province, all of the propaganda literature that has been published in the last four or five months and it is all been practically the same thing.

I do not know what it is called now,but the Five Year Plan Mr. Chairman,is one. There is another one- together or something, I just forget what it is, but there are three major documents all of them saying the same thing - AN HON. MEMBER: Sounds like (inaudible) MR. T. LUSH: all of them enunciating the same ideas that we got in the Throne Speech and then these little tracts, these little brochures, 'Hang Tough' ,and~ ano~ one that was giving the difference in revenue if we own the offshore. All of these things,Mr. ~. what are they costing the people of this Province?

What is it costing the people of this Province to allow themselves to .. be indoctrinated with the constitutional gibberish that has been sent out to the people of 21 4 7 .. .. ,

March 30,1981 Tape No. 759 AH-1 MR. LUSH: this Province in the last four or five months. I expect, Mr. Chairman, it is a tidy bill. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird): Order, please! The member's time is up. Is he winding up? Time is up. MR. LUSH: MR. CHAIRMAN: DR. COLLINS: Time is up? Sorry,Mr. Chairman. The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Chairman, just to keep evenness on one side and the other I thought I would have a few words at this point in time. ~nd also there are a number of matters that have been brought up, both a bit earlier today and also on the last day that might need comment. The last time I was on my feet, Mr.

Chairman,! was just going to get into a subject that had been originally brought to the attention of the House by the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) and time ran out so I would like to go back to that now if I may just for a short while. The hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr.Thoms) had expressed concern about alcohol abuse in the Province,and I think all members of the House are certainly concerned in that and certainly government is.

Now the hon. member took the line that the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation should be doing something about thj _~ in a very specific way and I think he meant some sort of educational process -and that could be one way tha~ one could deal with the matter. However, certainly it is not the only way and in my view it is not the best way. The Liquor Corporation is not orientated that way nor is it organized that way. The Liquor Corporation is essentially a vehicle for supply and for distribution.

It is not particularly well organized,nor does it have the personnel on staff and so on and so forth to get into an educational programme. There are other arms of government which are much more adept at doing that type of thing 2148 .. ,

March 30,1981 Tape No. 759 AH-2 DR. COLLINS: and government has set up a group which is to evolve a plan that we hope will tackle what is an increasing problem. And the plan will involve likely the Department of Education, the Department of Health and the Department of Social Services. And I think that will be a more effective way of getting at the educational side. Now 1 Mr. Chairman,! would not like to leave the impression that government is not doing anything about this matter. It certainly is.

Before getting into what the provincial government is doing I would like to just make sure that hon. members understand that in terms of media advertising this is, certainly as far as the electronic media is concerned, this is the responsibility of CRTC. There are regulations laid down by CRTC as to what may be put forth on the electronic media in terms of advertising of alcoholic beverages and all provinces are invited to partake in that process in whatever way they wish. They can become part of a committee structure or they can give briefs or indications of how they want the thing to be handled.

And we, the Province of Newfoundland, have had connections an .d have communications with the CRTC over this. The CRTC I do not think is doing a 2149 " "· .. ,

March 30, 1981 Tape 760 PK - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: particularly good job, quite honestly. One of the things that they should be doing or one of their guidelines is that the advertising of alcoholic beverages should not be done in such a way as to have a connection withyouth or the connection with a desirable lifestyle, and that type of thing. And I think we can all think of advertisements which do exactly that, particularly in terms of beer advertising, and this is a point that we have made with CRTC.

Now in terms of the provincial government itself, although I do not think anyone feels that perhaps anyone is doing sufficient in this area, we are doing as good a job as most jurisdictions at this present time. And as I rnentioned,we are hoping to get into a larger educational programme. But the Province supplies money, supplies funding to the Newfoundland Drug and Alcohol Addiction Society. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! DR. COLLINS: And that matter will be brought before the House when the Budget comes down to see if this should be continued in this corning year also.

We also supply funding for such operations as the Detoxification Centre which is connected with St. Clare's Mercy Hospital. The Liquor Licencing Board is funded by government, and this is a control mechanism. The control mechanism is very clearly followed when applications are made by individuals and companies who wish to operate lounges and that type of activity.

And I might say,one of the prerequisites for an application is that the local area, though the residents in the local area and organizations in the local area such as churches and so on,that they should not raise any objections to an application. 2150 •.. .. .. ,

Harch 30, 1981 Tape 760 PK - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: The Liquor Licencing Board does have an enforcement aspect to it. It has its own inspectors, not a great number, but it has its own inspectors whowill go around and make sure that the regulations that the Board attach to applications are followed. The Board also has an arrangement with the Newfoundland Constabularly, and in areas outside of the city of St. John's with the RCMP that they also will be an enforcement and a supervisory a~ for the Board. As I mentioned, Mr.

Chairman, I do not think anyone feels that sufficient has been done in this regard, Incidentially,the RCMP also, as possibly hon. members will recall and remember, the RCMP have put on a very effective programme in the last year or two to try to diminish the incidents of driving whilst under the influence of alcohol, and this has had a very beneficial effect, I think, in te~s of our highway statistics related to alcohol abuse. I would agree with the han. member for Grand Bank (Mr.

Thoms) that this is a subject that we have to keep before us, especially - well not only because of, but perhaps more especially because of the revenues the Province gets from the sale of alcoholic beverages, and I think I can assure the House that this is a matter of concern to us and one that we will do the best we can with within the limited means at the disposal of the provincial government. Mr. Chairman, there are a number of other points that came up along the way- I do not really think there are any ones of great matter and great concern - but the hon. member for 2151 ,,, .. .

March 3Q, 19 81 TapeNo. 761 NM- 1 DR. COLLINS: Eagle River (Mr. HiscoCk) brought up the point that he had difficulty in seeing hew his own district would benefit fran the expenditures that cue laid out in the Interim Supply Bill. Well, the hen. l!elltler,I am sure, understands that we do not keep our accxronts that W2r:i, neither in the Interim Supnly Bill estilnates or in the nain estil!ates. We do not booget in te::c:rs of districts 1 -.«! budget in terms of departn'ents and we booget in te::c:rs of mwtarmes. And if the hal. neni::er, who is not here today, unfartmlately, but if the hen.

IIelltler wished to get further infomatien about his own district, I think if he approached aey one of the depart::n"ents a:noemed, especially if he had a specific question in mind,he would find that he would l:e able to get the i.nfometial he desires with very little difficulty.

But I cannot, nor would any previous Fi.na.nce Minister, l:e able to say 1' ; In the district of EaiJl,e River we are going to spend so m:uc..lot on transportation, so milCh em educatien, so nu:h en health, so mtrll en social services, am so en and so forth~ This is Dot the wey we keep our accotmts. 'l!he hen. neWer .f'Or":Torngat ~tains (Mr. Warren) indicated that the bill, the funding in the Inter:im SUf.PlY Bill for the Depart:lrent of Educatioo was $114.5 millicn appraldmately, and liB stated that, if I zeaenber oonectly, all or ItOSt of this was for teachezs salaries and tha~.~fore,the anount was excessive.

Well, that is not t:rue. In actual fact approximately- or a bit less than half of i.l".at in the Interim Sllf.Ply Bill is for teac:hel:s salaries 1 - . $53.5 millicn, the t:est is for other aspects of cilr educational system, including the naintenance of sc:hJols and so en. MR. 'l'IJ:Ml : Could I ask the hen. minister just a question rel.atiDg back to ~ discussion en the abuse of alc::obcl in the Province.

Satething interesting for ne was the distinction that the ~undl.and Liquor Cotporation, or the licencing board puts em clobs and lollnges in this Province, In this Province, for example, it is not peiltli.tted for a person under the age of nineteen to frequent a lounge. I think there are special calditials under '.olhidl he can frequent a lounge, but the primaJ:y rule is that'"-lle 2152 "• .. , ..

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 761 NM- 2 MR. THCM3: cannot, But a club, for ex.auple, a person of any age can go in arxi ·frequent a club that sells alCXlholic beverages. New, the ha4. minister ney not knew the~ at this point in time but maybe you could get one for ITe. MR. ~~ {Butt): The hal. nenber for Grand Bank (Mr. That'

s) asked a question. DR. COLLINS: I will certainly get sale IIC:te info:cnation on that if it is :required, but,I think,oertainly in tenns of special licencing, special licences are saret..imes given cut by the board to others than 0111ners of lounges and so on, and these special lice1ces a:re given for certain things t:ha1:. go on that are not :related only to the consatpti.on of alc:chol. You knew they~ be giveD at,say,a church event or whatever. And,of course, if one excluded these beli:lw' the age of nineteen, just because of alcohol being sold there, it would 'WOrk to the aetrinent of the activity itself.

That is in the case of special licences. In tel::ms of club licences, I suspect scuewha.t the sane thing applies. I :know of sare cll.tas which a:re the frat:emi.ty types of clubs. and there a:re many activities going an there, family activities to a large extent,where the adults, of course, can take advantage of the offering of alcoholic beverages. But there are other activities there that a:re orientated toward younger l!alilers of the family r and it 'WOuld not be tc the advantage of the cxmmmity if the undera.ged. individual.s were--excluded in those instances.

I illll not sure that ia the total answer but if there is other i.nfollllation to be given I will cone back with it, hopefully, before the Interim Supply Bill passes through all its stages. 2153 .. .,

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 762 DW - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: Grade XII was mentioned,and there was criticism about the decision to go ahead with Grade XII this year, I think mainly on the basis that the educational system is under strain already and any extra funding that is available should go into the present svstem. I see my time has expired, Mr. Chairman. All I can say just to finish off, is that that is a judgement call.

Our education system needs more than just the present system, it cannot be a static system, it must go with the times, it must do what is required for the better education of all aspects of education of our youths. And there was a judge­ ment call and the judgement call was that at this point in time we needed to expand beyond ~he present structure of t~e educational system. MR. CHAIRlii..AN (Butt) : The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: I want to come back to the question that I raised originally and that brought a response from the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry), brought a political response, I might say, Mr. Chairman. The bon. minister did not give the House the facts that I asked for. I asked the hon. minister,and he should be able to give the House this information. If he does not have it in front of him 1it is only a matter of making a phone call, the infor­ mation can be brought into the House in connection with the offshore directorate. How many employees do they have? Table the salaries of the directorate. We are entitled to have that information.

Every bit of information in connection with the directorate the House is entitled to have it, names if they want to. It is public money, the taxpayers'money is being spent, the taxpayers are entitled to have names, classifications, salaries, contracts and what have you, every­ thing tabled in connection with the offshore directorate. Mr. Chai 'rman, it is a fair question. And one of the answers 2154 "• .. •..

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 762 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: that I would like to get,that I did not get from the minister,was in connection with the Chairman of that directorate who we were told originally not only received a substantial salary from tne public treasury but was also permitted to operate a private con- sulting firm. Now, Mr. Chairman, that is not done as members know, that is just not done! That is a no, no in the public service, a no, no! And I ask the minister to tell us if Mr. Millen,who is Chairman of the Directorate,is still operating a private consulting fiFID.

And if so, does he have any contracts with the Newfoundland Government? Does he have any contracts with the directorate? Does he have any contracts with the minister's department? We are entitled to know that, Mr. Chairman. We have to look at the possible conflict of interest here and we are entitled to have the information. And I am glad to hear that we are attracting good people! I am glad to hear that we are attracting good people but give us the salaries of these good people. Table their contracts. What other benefits do they get besides their salary? Do they get pension rights?

Do they get other fringe benefits like insurance plans? Are they provided with a car? Are they given a house? I mean, we are entitled to know all of this,Mr. Chairman. And the minister got up and made the absurd statement, made the statement that we are not entitled to know the names of the people who receive money from the public treasury. We are not entitled to have it! MR. L. BARRY: Yes, you are. MR. S. NEARY: Well, that is not what the minister said a few minutes ago . 2155 .. ,

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 762 DW - 3 MR. L. BARRY: You are not entitled to have the salary and the name of the individual tied together. MR. S. NEARY: Why are we not entitled to have it? Why are we not? We are entitled to have that infor­ mation. That is taxpayers'money that is being spent. MR. L. BARRY: i"!R. S. NEARY: MR. L. BAARY: It has never been done. It has been done, Mr. Chairman. You will go out chasing after individuals then, giving them a hard time. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we are entitled to have that information and it has been done and it will be done!

It is taxpayer money. Now, Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentle­ man chose to make a politcal speech when he got up. Scolding the Opposition again, scolding us! Well, Mr. - MR. BARRY: (Inaudible). MR. S. NEARY: That is right, we found out Bob Cole's salary, did we not? MR. MOORES: That is right. And Mr. Nutbeem's. MR. S. NEARY: No, we did not find out - we do not know yet how much Nutbeem ripped off the taxpayers for. The hon. gentleman did not tell us,when he talked about that symposium that was held, he did not tell us whether or not there is going to be a pipeline to bring the oil and gas ashore from the Grand Banks.

Because the hOn. gentleman knows full well that there is not going to be a pipeline. The hon. gentleman knows that the oil will be loaded at the wellhead and carried away. And the hon. gentleman also knows that the oil companies can operate under one permit, a federal permit,and they can take that oil to all parts of the world without any reference at all to this government. What do we do i'f they - let us say, for instanee, Mr. Chairman, 2156 I ~ J

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 762 DW - 4 MR. S. NEARY: that Mobil submits their pro- "• duction plans to the Government of Canada and to the " . ''• 2157

March 30, 1981, Tape 763, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: are doing. MR. FLIGHT: MR. NEARY: provincial government, which they Which they are doing now. No, they have asked, by the way, for an extension and I would likefor the minister to comment on that. They have asked for an extension of time to carry out some more drilling exploration before they submit their production plans. But let us say they hav~ a few week's, they submit these production plans and the Province gets into a dispute with Mobil and the Government of Canada says, 'Go ahead Mobil and start producing oil'.

As I said befo.re, do we use the Norma and Gladys and the water bombers to go out then to protect our rights on the Grand Banks? So, Mr. Chairman, this is a very important matter, this question of ownership the bon. gentleman raises, and every time he raises it he scolds the Opposition. Well, I am going to read now the bon. gentleman a letter so that there will never again be any doubt in the bon. gentleman's mind where I stand on offshore. I want to read a latter that I wrote the Prime Minister of canada on March 26th., last week,in connection with the offshore. I want to put this in the public record, Mr.

Chairman, so never again will the minister be able to get up and get away with his silly nonsense and his silly po i itical games that he is playing. Because the offshore ownership question will be ~ettled only when this government is prepared to sit down and negotiate with the Government of Canada to establish the ownership, to argue it out, and then to come to some kind of an agreement. Otherwise, the only way it will be settled, Mr. Chairman, is in the Supreme Court of Canada. One way or the other there has to be a deal. My God, I mean, are we stupid people? There has to be a deal.

If there is no deal, if there is a stand-off, then the only way to resolve it is before the 2158 .,j .. .. ,

March _ 30., 1981, Tape 763, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Supreme Court of Canada. Now, Mobil has threatened to take both governments to court. Well, if they go ahead the issue may be settled. But this government seems to be rather jittery and .jumpy about that and a threat will cancel Mobil's - MR. BARRY: attempt on President MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: There has just been an assassination I beg your pardon? The news says there was just an assassination attempt on Reagan. MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: apparently. MR. NEARY: MR. HOUSE: so I hear. MR. BARRY: MR. NEARY: There was? Is he hurt?

His Press Secretary was killed His Press Secretary was killed? (Inaudible) is in stable condition, They also got the assassin. I see. Mr. Chairman, what we have to know now is what action if any - what is happening now? Is this government just sitting back waiting for somebody to come crawling to them to settle the offshore question? Or is this government taking the initiative to have the matter of offshore ownership resolved? Because, Mr. Chairman, I can say that we own the offshore, as I always say, the minister can say we own the offshore, all Newfoundland can say we own it, but how do we prove we own it?

How do we prove it? So I am going to read this letter which I think puts the thing in its proper perspective, the minister can have a copy if he wants it: "Dear Prime Minister: MR. BARRY: all. Dear Prime Minister: That reveals 2159 "• ''I

March 30, 1981, Tape 763, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: "There continues to be some lack of understanding, a misunderstanding here, I regret to say, about the precise nature of your offer to Newfoundland in respect of the" - can I have - boys, I cannot hear myself here. AN HON. MEMBER: Shh, shh! MR. NEARY: - "precise nature of your offer to Newfoundland in respect of the offshore resources that exist off the Newfoundland portion of Canada's Atlantic seaboard. Newfoundlanders unanimously hope and pray that it ~ay be found that title to those resources belongs to Newfoundland". Now, let me repeat that, Mr.

Chairman, for the benefit of the hon. minister. These are my words: "Newfoundlanders unanimously hope and pray that it may be found ·that the title to those resources be­ long to Newfoundland. But if it turns out not to be so" - MR. BARRY: What? MR. NEARY: - "it will be a matter of importance and urgent concern to us to know exactly what your offer is.

Is it your offer that Newfoundland shall be free to collect lO 0 per cent of' all royal ties, taxes etc. , from any such offshore resources that come under development precisely as if those existed not offshore but underneath the 'surface, or even on the surface of dry land in this Province, or even underneath any ponds, lakes, rivers within the Province just as is now the case with timber, hydro electric, oil or gas resources that exist in this Province, that your offer is for a such a period of time as may be required for Newfoundland to become 'a have' Province whereupon we would be expected to share our good fortune with the less fortunate ,. 2160 " . .. .. ~

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 764 EL - 1 MR.

NEARY: provinces of Canada as up to now (and assuredly for quite a period to come) we have shared in the good fortune of Canadian provinces1 So that the matter may be absolutely clear, am I right in understanding that as such large industrial concerns in this Province as Abitibi Price, Bowaters, Iron Ore Company of Canada, Advocate Mines that developed land based resources in our Province draw their profit from such development, pay taxes to the Government of Canada. oay royalties and taxes to the Government of Newfoundland so the companies developing oil and/or gas offshore would,under your offer,be required to pay federal taxes, permitt~d to make their profits and be ob­ liged to pay to Newfoundland the same royalties that they would be expected to pay if they were land based?

If Newfoundland decided to submit the question to the Supreme Court of Canada, who owns the offshore resources,and the Supreme Court says that Canada owns them, would your present offer be renewed to New­ foundland? Finally, Prime Minister, could I trespass further on your time to ask you to give a technical definition of the term 'have province' that you have used in your offer. Sincerely yours:' ister's reaction to that. MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt): Energy. MR. BARRY: Now, I would like to hear the min- The hon. the Minister of Mines and Mr.

Chairman, I am very pleased and happy to see the hon. member opposite admit that there is some ambiguity and some considerable ambiguity in this very general offer that the Prime Minister has thrown out and I am very pleased to see-and I think the member should be complimented for trying to pin down the Prime Minister on just what he is saying. And I would like to see more members opposite taking the same 21 61 ... •.. ..

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 764 EL - 2 MR. BARRY: constructive approach, to pin dQwn the Prime MinisteLAnd when you get your response back,I will be very interested in seeing it. MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: I will table it. I will give you (inaudible). I hope you do because then we will pin down, first of all, what is this 100 per cent of revenue that the Prime Minister is referring to.

Now, it is unfortunate that you did not go a bit further and you did not ask the Prime Minister whether he was going to be prepared to have the Prov- ince involved in deciding what price was going to be recovered for the sale of oil from Hibernia because, you see, if the Fed- eral Government can say, 'you must sell it at such and such a price', they can make sure that there is very little in the way of economic rent or profit that is available for the Province.

So that is a very, very important involve- ment 1 that we should be involved in that decision, not that it should be our decision solely but that we should be, as a Prov- ince involved in the deciding such important questions as what is the price which will be obtained. MR. MOORES: That is not true. MR. NEARY: I have done my homework on that too. MR. BARRY: The member from Carbonear (R.Moores) is saying that the Province should not be involved in that de- cision. Horrible, horrible, horrible. And the member is not saying a truth. Am I allowed to say that, Mr. Chairman? MR. MOORES: No, you want world prices. MR.

BARRY: The member is incorrect in his statements. His statements are not factual. His statements are totally incorrect and fabricated. Am I allowed to say that? AN HON. MEI-1BER: In other words, he is lying. He is a liar. MR. BARRY: No, no, no. We are not able to say that. 2162

t4arch 30, 1981 TApe No. 764 EL - 3 MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, this government says that we should move in an orderly fashion over a period of time that will permit us to look out for the person on fixed income, the lower .income person. ~-le should move up to seventy-five to eighty- five per cent of the Chicago price. Mr. Chairman, mem­ bers opposite may not know what the Chicago price is. They should do a little bit of reading so that the y can find out what is going on in the oil industry .

They should even read the submissions and the briefs that this government has presented at First Ministers' Conference s 1 before the ~ational Energy Board and so on,and they will se e it set out there just what it is that this Province is submitting should apply as far as the prices for Hibernia oil are concerned. As a matter of fact , Mr. Chairman, they should take a look at the documents, the reports that we have been putting out down in the Petroleum Directorate, by these very gentlemen who the me .mber opposite, in his not so constructive part of the speech, is 2163 ~~~ .,\ .II '!• ., '

March 30, 1981 Tape 765 PK - 1 MR. BARRY: trying to attack and cut down and destroy their credibility and question their competence. It should not be done, Mr. Chairman. We should be supporting these Newfoundlanders who are doing their best to see, and are achieving a result that sees,the manage~ent of that resource within this Province being as good as is happening anywhere in the world. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the first over$ight in the l~tter is,unfortunately,a failure to pin the Prime Minister down as to whether this Province is going to be permitted, if he has his way, to have any say over the price which will be obtained. Because it does not matter if you will only get-you know, 100 per cent of the profit,if it is already been skimmed off by keeping the price too lo~ does not help us very much. And the .other large gap is whet~er the Prime Minister would be permitted in his gracious lese majeste, if he has his way,to let the Province participate in decisions with respect to the rate of production.

Is the Prime Minister of Canada, if he gets his way, going to see that that oil is sucked up to Central Canada as fast as possible, not used for industry here in this Province? Is he not going to give the economy of Newfoundland an opportunity to keep up with what is happening in the industry? Is he going to have the great gaping maw of Central Canada fed by this black gooey stuff from the offshore so quickly that we will not be able to train our people to get involved in the industry, to get not just the hewers of wood and drawers of water jobs, but the high technolo~y jobs available in the industryT MR.

TULK: (Inaudible) • MR. BARRY: Now,these are some of the defects that are present in the member's letter. But I am happy and pleased to see him attempting to put the Prime 21 6 4 ''i " .. , .

March 30, 1981 Tape 765 PK - 2 MR. BARRY: Minister on the spot~ and I compliment him for that approach. And I hope, Mr. Chairman, that he _is going to be prepared to come across the House when he gets the response, which I know he is going to get f~om the Prime Minister, which indicates that none of these important decisions will the Prime Minister want to see taken here in this Province. And I will be welcoming him with open arms when he is ready to come across ,when he receives that letter. MR. FLIGHT: He what? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

BARRY: I am also happy to see him refer to this terrible, terrible qualification that the Prime Minister put on, He said we are going to have 100 per cent of the revenue until we are a have Province. Now,first of all, how is it that Canada did not fall apart in the last hundred-odd years when Ontario was a have province. How is it that the Canadian nation did not self- destruct because citizens in the Province of Ontario were earning more than the national average in terms of per capita ·income. How is it, Mr.

Chairman, that the Province did not self-~ and the country did not self-~~ becduse the Government of Ontario was able to keep taxes down and so forthiBecause they were doing better than the national averaae. MR. STAGG: Right! Right! MR. BARRY: Because they were allowed to be a have province. Is it our destiny to remain always at the national average or lower, and never be able to get above the national average? Is that what hon. members opposite want to see in this Province? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! That is what they want. That is it. 2165 •·, ... ..,

March 30, 1981 Tape 765 PK - 3 MR. BARRY: Do han. members opposite want to see it be a matter of grace and courtesy by leave of the federal government that we ever achieve revenue from the offshore? The member opposite would never say that his right to speak in this House is something that only flows by permission from government or by permission of the Chair. The hon. member has a right to get up and speak. Now,in the same way, Mr. Chairman, we say that Newfoundlanders have a right to the revenue from Hibernia and it does not have to be by grace and by God of Pierre Elliott Trudeau. MR. STAGG: Right ; MR.

BARRY: We have a right to the revenue. Now, Mr. Chairman, the people of this Province are the most generou~ people in the world, SOME HON. M&~BERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: -and our government will be the most generous government in Canada when it comes to sharing our wealth, Mr. Chairman, when we get in a position of wealth with our fellow Canadians. And I happily look · forward to the day when we will have that opportunity to share our wealth, Mr. Chairman. But that should be our decision. It should be up to us as to how much of our birthright we give up.

Given the opportunity,there will be nobody able to criticize the people of this Province for not being willing to share with their 2166 ... "•

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 766 RA - 1 MR. L. BARRY: fellow Canadians but this govern- ment does not believe that it should be rammed down our throats,that when we reach the national average,bang that is it boys, we are taking your revenue away from you and we are going to distr ibute it out of Ottawa to your . fellow Canadians'. I do not think that that is the way the people of this Province want to see offshore oil and gas developed and if members opposite continue on with their position be it at their own peril on this issue. Now, Mr. Speaker, to answer a couple of specific questions: ' ' MR. L.

BARRY: Yes, the head of the Petroleum Directorate Mr. Millen has a contract by which, we obtain his services for eleven months of the year and in that twelfth month he has the option of either going on holidays or he has the option of doing some consulting work where it does not conflict with his duties to the Province of Newfoundland and only after he obtains the permission, in writing,of the Minister of Mines and Energy,i.e. my- self. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIP.MJL7'1 (Butll. Oraer, please! Order, please! MR. BARRY: And;Mr. Chairman, if I could by leave just finish the point I am at.

By leave, Okay ? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. MR. L. BARRY: And we find it very advantageous to have Mr. Hillen. AN HON. MEMBER: Agreed. MR. L. BARRY: - to have his services sought down in Central America and South America because we gain, then 1the experience that he has in working for governments, as he has been in Central America , where he is out getting his 2167 .., .. ,

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 766 RA - 2 MR. L. BARRY: hands dirty in the oil industry and he does 'not become a desk-bound bureaucrat, he is out there in the field in the mud in the oil and he brings back his very valuable experience then to this Province, once he does participate down in Central America or wherever in this consulting work. As far as salaries are concerned,Mr.

Chairman, the position that has al­ ways been taken by this ~ouse,as I understand it, and by governments in this House,is that the salaries, the block vote for salaries and the classifications are su~­ plied and the numbers are supplied and I will be happy to supply that and I will be happy to supply the names of all the people who are down there in the Directorate. But, Mr.

Chairman, it is my understanding that it has not been the practice of this House,or of previous govern­ ments or ot this government of the past, to get down into identifying the salary, you know, whether a Mrs. so and so is on step three or step two of classification such and ... ,,, such. ~ AN HON. MEMBER: (inaudible) MR. L. BARRY: That has not been the case Mr. Chairman, It is not a matter of great principle with me and I am not sure there would be any great problem in doing it 1 but I would want to look closely at it before breaking what has been a long standing - MR. FLIGHT: (inaudible) MR. BARRY: MR.

CHAIRMAN{Buttl: MR. L. BARRY: commercial - Order, please! - it is more a commercial than a governmental practice 1of carrying on in that fashion. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 2168

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 766 RA - 3 MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt): The hon. member for Windsor- Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I regret very much that we cannot continue in the line of debate that we just witnessed between the member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary) and the minister. Because, Mr . Chairman, the hypocrisy of this government with regards to our offshore i? 1oing to reveal itself one of these ~ays 1Mr. Chairman. And I want to talk a­ bout another hypocrisy, and that is the hypocrisy of this government in dealing with local problems, Mr.

Chairman,and I want to talk particularly about this governrnen~dealing with the Buchans situation this pa~t five years,and maybe within this past ten or twelve days. Now, Mr. Chairman, let us just for a second trace this government's involvement with the people of Buchans. In 1974 !-t.~. STAGG: (inaudible) involvement MR. FLIGHT: - this governrnent,Mr. Chairman, appointed a task force.

The word was -as the result of an industrial inquir¥, the word to the people of Buchans was that in less than five years the mine would run out• there would be a complete shut-down and the community of Buchans would have no reason to exist as a viable community. The government of the day appointed a task force and the purpose of that task force was to tell us-~nd Mr. Chairman, most of the ministers who were involved are still there - ~he purpose of the task force was to identify - MR. FLIGHT: -for the government of the day what 2169 .. , .. ,

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 767 DW - 1 MR. G. FLIGHT: could be done, what industrializa- tion was ·possible, what can we do that will guarantee­ whatprogrammes can be implemented that would guarantee the future, a viable, economic and social future for the town of Buchans 1 three thousand people, Mr. Chair­ man, who for fifty years asked for nothing and got nothing and needed ,nothing. We paved a lot of roads around this Province, Mr. Chairman, the town of Buchans did. The ~vwn of Buchans paid a lot of welfare cheques over fifty years.

We sent a lot of people to university when tuition was free but we asked for nothing, Mr. Chairman. And now suddenly our turn has come. Now, Mr. Chairman, the Buchans Task Force completed its report - I have a copy of it here somewhere - and the major recommenation of that report, the one and only recommendation that would aetermine whether or not Buchans survived as a community was that a road to South­ west Brook be built.

They recommended that the Buchans~ Burgeo~Southwest Brook road be done on the basis that­ there is no point in talking about anything else in Buchans, about industrialization, there is no point in talkinq about industrialization when you have a forty-seven mile dead end, Mr. Chairman, where you have to bring the raw materials in and bring the finished product hac~ out over the same road. The only chance that Buchans had to survive without a mine was transportation, access roads. Mr.

Chairman, the advantages were obvious: It would open up the tourist potential development that lies between Buchans and the West Coast, with the Price acquisition ofLinerboard it would open up job potential in the forest industry. There is some spin-off - there are communities in this Province today who live off nothing else except the out-of-pocket spin-off that is left by the passing public. 2170 .. , ''· .. , ..

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 767 DW - 2 MR. G. FLIGHT: And, Mr. Chairman,it would also cut roughly 100 miles off the present Trans-Canada. Any­ body moving goods from Port-aux-Basques to St. John's would have the option of doing it bya way that would be 100 miles less. Now, Mr. Chairman, the government of the day accepted that theory., They built five miles of road in the Lloyds Lake area at the cost of almost $1 million. And the next year, Mr. Chairman, they built another three and a half. The last mile of road on that was built, Mr. Chairman, in 1977.

Now,we had a change of government- we had a change, a political change in this Province in 1978 1 and, Mr. Chair­ man, the Buchans/Burgeo road was grounded. No more Buchans/ Burgee road. I am aware of ministers who are sitting in their placesin this House right now, Mr. Chairman, who be­ lieve in the concept. I am aware of people who have brought it up at Cabinet. I am told, Mr. Chairman, that the Premier goes right out of his mind at the very mention of the Buchans/ Burgee road. Now, where is'the Minister of Mines and Energy U1r. Barry) , Mr. Chai:z::man?

The minister who is supposed - who has the responsibility, the obvious responsi­ bility of making sure that the town of Buchans,since it exists totally now as a mining operation - and there are indications that the mining operation will curtail. As he knows these are indications that may change on a daily basis, that the work force could be seriously curtailed at any given time. And there was notification given by the operators of the mine less than two months ago pointing out a certain date,that if certain things did not happen the mine would, for allintents and purposes,close.

The minister knew that, the minister knows it now. And it is only because the mining company is going back and mining little bits of ore that they left from 21 71 .. , .. ,

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 767 DW - 3 MR. G. FLIGHT: their highgrading days, twenty- five years ago, that is keeping it going, Mr. Chairman. But now, Mr. Chairman, not only did this government - here is what this government thinks of Buchans and the people of Buchans - not only dio ~hey refuse to fund that road themselves - they did ten miles - they refused to put it on the shopping list to DREE, Mr. Chairman, not only did this government - and the people of Buchans could have accepted, Mr.

Chairman, if the Depart- ment of Highways did not have the money to build the Buchans/ Burgeo road or to make the final hook-up or to start upgrading it,we could understand that. We could understand that they built ten miles, that there are only twelve miles left, we can understand that, Mr. Chairman. But what we cannot under­ stand is thehypocrisy of a government that says in one side of its mouth, 'We want to do everything we can do to guarantee that Buchans remains a vi~ble community'.

And on the other side . of theirmouths refuses to let Ottawa, refuses to let the federal government put up the money that would build the Buchans/Burgeo road. Now,the next time the minister is up - MR. BARRY: What? What? What? JI.L~. G. FLIGHT: The Department of Transportation, Mr. Chairman, with the minister's knowledge,knows that the Cabinet, the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Brett) refused to have the Buchans/Southwest Brook road included in the shopping list to DREE. I have documentation, Mr. Chairman, from the various minister's office, from the Minister of DREE (Mr. P.

De Bane), from our own federal minister, 2172 .., ... , ..

March 30,1981 Tape No. 768 AH-1 MR. FLIGHT: everybody, even the ministers, Mr.Chairman, who have got nothing to lose politically. Now, Mr.Chairman, when the minister meets with the Buchans Action Committee - and over the years he has been meeting I with them and telling them that we are going to do everything we can do- I would want him to explain why it is,Mr.Chairman, why it is that the Government of Newfoundland, the present adrninistration,refuses to allow the government of Ottawa- refuses to put on the DREE shopping list the Buchans-Burgeo road ior funding under a subsidiary DREE agreement? AN HON .

MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. FLIGHT: It has been asked. Mr. Cha±r.man. They have been specifically asked to include that road on their shopping list to DREE and they have consistently refused. Now, Mr.Chairman, if we are playing politics here,why does the Government of Newfoundland not put the road on the list? And why do they not find another way to embarrass Mr. Rompkey? Why do they not put it on the list? MR. BARRY: We do not want to embarrass Mr. Rompkey. MR.

FLIGHT: Why do they not put it on the list and have the federal government reject the Province's request so that it can be said in Buchans that we want to build your road but the federal government ref~sed the funding. Why do they not do that? I will tell you why they will not do it.~. Chairman. MR. BARRY: We do not play politics. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Chairman, the Premier knows and the Minister of Transportation (Mr.Brett) knows and the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) knows that if that road goes on that list it is going to get all kinds of priority. It is going to get all kinds of priority.

There is a possibility, a real possibility, Mr.Chairman, that that road will be funded and that road will be built 2173 •·,

March 30,1981 Tape No. 768 AH-2 MR. FLIGHT: and that is the reason why, because the Premier, the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry), the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Brett) do not want to see that road built,Mr. Chairman. Now, there are reasons why they might not want to see it. But let us get it out in the open , Mr. Chairman, 1et us be honest about it and let us stop leading the people of Buchans or Central Newfoundland because there is all kinds of documentation that indicates - MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman. MR. FLIGHT: No, the minister - MR. MARSHALL: A point of order then. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Butt) : A point of order. The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: I just want to point out, Mr. Chairman, that it is customary to address the Chair.With the vigor the hon. member is addressing the Chamber to the minister,you would almost get the impression of threatening gestures which I know the hon. gentleman would not want to convey. MR. BARRY: He would not dare. MR. CHAIRMAN: That is not a point of order. MR. FLIGHT: Mr . Chairman, that point of order is just as specious and spurious as the member who presented it , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Windsor- Buchans (Mr.

Flight). One minute remaining. MR. FLIGHT: One minute left,Mr. Chairman. I would expect now,Mr. Chairman - there are all kinds of documentation on file by all kind of organizarions supporting the concept of the Buchans-Burgeo road. That road makes sense, Mr. Chairman, if Buchans were not even there. There is organization of Central Newfoundland from the West Coast - and 'I would expect that the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) - 2174 .. ... .. ,

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 768 IB-3 MR, STAGG: They can get no support from their member, that is the problem. MR. CHAIRMA!I(BUTT ) : Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: I would expect that the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) will get up and support the concept of the Buchans-Southwest Brook road. Now, Mr. Chairman,to the best of my ability - MR. STAGG: I am on the record for it. MR. FLIGHT: So am I. To the best of my ability, Mr. Chairman,in the five years I have been here, I have done everything possible to sell the government to support the Buchans-Burgeo-Southwest Brook road. Mr. Chairman,to no avail.

There is evidence now, Mr. Chairman, that the Cabinet have dug in their heels and will not build that road. But now, Mr. Chairman,the onus is on this government - MR. CHAIRMAN: up. MR. FLIGHT: the point, Mr. Chairman. HR. CHAIRMAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. FLIGHT: Order, please The hon. gentleman's time is Yes~ By leave, just to finish By leave? By leave. Agreed. The onus is now on the government of this Province, the Premier, the Minister of Mines and Energy, who has responsiblity for Buchans, the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Brett) who is responsible for the road construction programme, to either go ahead with the Buchans-Burgeo road, go to DREE for the funding,or tell the people of Central Newfoundland,and specifically Buchans, why they are not prepared to proceed with the Buchans-Burgeo road. 2175 .. , .. , .. ,

March 30, 1981 Tape :-Jo . 768 !B -4 M.R. CFI.AIRl'1AN (BUTT) : The hon . Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: ~. Chairman, I do not want to hog debate on this side of the House but the members seem determined to put questions to myself and so that it can never be said that this go vernment is afraid to answer questions , I want to deal with them while they are still hot off the presses or hot tongues. Now, Mr . Chairman, I think that we have seen a clear distinct ion drawn by the last member to speak between the philosophy of his party and the philosophy of the party on the Government side of the House.

The member gets up and he suggests, he actua lly admits, Mr. Olainnan, he admits that what he would do is play politics with the live s of these people . 21 76 .. l f!

March 30, 1981 Tape No. 769 EL - l MR. BARRY: he admits that if he were in power, which will never happen, if his party was in government, what he would do is he would put it on the DREE shopping list, not expecting to have the road done but to let the Federal Government turn it down, to let Mr. Rompkey, ~s he said, embarrass himself. Well, Mr. Chairman, this government does not believe in stooping to playing politics with the lives of people, people who are understandably quite concerned in the community of Buchans.Because it is an unavoidable fact of life that mines run out, that mineral reserves run out.

And that is what may be happening in Bucha~s, and I say may be happening, Mr .. Chairman. Because we have been putting so much pressure on the companies out there, we have been after them continuously, con- tinuously, Mr. Chairman, to spend more money on exploration. They did spend more money on exploration as a result of our pressure, and lo and behold we found additional reserves, add­ ' itional reserves, Mr. Chairman, adjacent to the existing Me· Lean mine. Now, that is the way to keep a mining town operating. Keep the mine operating, to keep the mine operating. And, Mr. Chairman, what else did wedo?

As a result of our local preference policies in the off- shore oil and gas industry,because we have been exercising jur- isdiction here, because we have not taken the approach of mem- bers opposite who say,'oh, you cannot do anything with those big oil companies, you cannot do anything with the Federal Government, they can operate out of Halifax, they do not have to observe Newfoundland oil and gas regulations~ Well, Mr.

Chairman, the fact is that they bloody well do observe New- foundland oil and gas regulations 7 and they do observe our local preference regulations, And as a result of our local pre- ference operation, yes, as a result of the operation of our local preference regulations, we have a barite industry about to 21 7 7 ..,

March 30, 1981 Tape No, 769 EL - 2 MR. BARRY: get started in Buchans and the member opposite said, 'oh, that is only thirty jobs or forty jobs'. And,Mr. Chairman, well another eight or nine little . industries like that and you will see a difference in Buchans, will you not, Mr. Chairman? And that is the way, Mr.

Chairman, that we will meet the concerns of the good people of Buchans, not by some mystical,fantasy road that is going to solve every­ body's problems, that is going to require tens and maybe hun­ dreds of millions of dollars to construct when you have people on the coast of Labrador who risk their lives in travelling a road now that needs to be upgraded, when you have people in just about every community who are using the Trans-Canada Highway, who take their lives in their hands when they go out with these transport trucks-and the whole Trans Canada Highway needs to be rebui.l t.

And the member opposite is saying, 'oh, let us build a second Trans-Canada'. We have not even got a first Trans-Canada. And nat only that, we do not have the Federal Government recognizing the obligation that they have to provide a proper Trans-Canada.

If they are going to shut down the railway, if they are going to force the truckers to move over the Trans-Canada because the railway cannot handle the freight that is moving into the rravince and they are going to put all these heayy transport trucks on and tear up theroads, the least they can ·do is see that this government h.as enough money to pay for the damage that they are causing, But, no, no, Mr.

Chairma .n, instead of trying to upgrade the roads that we have, provide roads to the communities that now do not have any access in some cases, or do not have paved access or have very bad roads - go up and talk to the people in Main Brook and Roddickton and see if they are pleased with their roads. See if t-tr. Rompkey is going to put the Southwest Brook road ahead of those roads on th .e Great Northern Peninsula. Ask Mr. Rompl<ey 2178 .. , .. , .. , .. , .. ,

t-larch. 30, 1981 Tape No . 76~ EL - 3 MR . BARRY: i,!; he i.s going to put that road ah.ead of doing the coastal Labrador road . Ask him that and bring back the message to this l:tous.e , if you have the guts to do it - I am sorry, Mr . Chairman, I got carrie d away. I am not sure if that - I take it back, if it- MR. CHAIRMAN ( BVTT) : Yes. I would ask the minister to withdraw. MR. BARRY : - is not parliamentary . And imagine the member saying that we should put ~~s road on the DREE shopping list and let the Federal Government decide th.e priorities for road building in this Province . 2179 ., ·'I . .. ... . !,

March 30, 1981, Tape 770, Page 1 -- apb MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, this government is not afraid to list its priorities, and this government has listed its priorities, and this government has said that the Southwest Brook road does not rank in priority to a Main Brook road, to. a Roddickton road, to a coastal Labrador road. It does not rank in priority to getting our rural communities linked up where they are not linked up right now, to a proper highway system. But, .M:i:' .• Chairman, does that show lack of sensitivity for the needs of the people of Buchans?

I say to you, as soon,as soon as the request came in from the companies, the mining companies, that they wanted assistance in order to get a possible development of the Tulk's mineral deposit, which is some distance down to the end of Red Indian Lake, we immediately, within days, Mr. Chairman, had an offer on the table and we said, 'You show us that you need money for a road to be able to get that deposi~ underway and you will have it'. And that is an offer we put on the table to the companies that unfortunately has not yet been taken up because there are metallurgi-cal problems with the Tulk' s deposit. But, Mr.

Chairman, we have said that we will support a Southwest Brook road but it has to be done in conjunction with resource development, and as it is shown that a road through Buchans, across to the West coast,can be justified in terms of accessing mineral reserves, in· terms of accessing forestry reserves, proper ti.mber reserves. As soon as it can be shown that it is environmentally safe and sound to put another road cutting off the Province, then, Mr. Chairman, we have our offer on the table for money for that road, tied in with resource development but not, Mr.

Chairman, not - how nonsensical and foolish is it to say the way to cure the problems of the people of Buchans is to throw $100 million at them? Yes, you can solve the problems of most places in the world by doing that, Mr. Chaiiman, but is that a responsible way to handle the 2180 .. ,

March 30, 1981, Tape 770, Page 2 -- apb MR. BARRY: taxpayers' dollars? That is the way we saw members opposite, when they were in government before, handle the taxpayers' dollars, and you saw what happened. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: You saw the millions and millions and tens of millions and hundreds of millions of dollars wasted. 'Oh, there is a problem here, a political problem, we will throw a millen dollars at it. And there is another political problem there, we will throw $10 million at that one.

And there is a political problem out in Stephenville' - how many millions of dollars did they throw at that one? The member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) loved it. MR. NEARY: Tell us about the explosion along side the Strait of Belle Isle to start the Lower Ch.urchill. MR. BARRY: MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. BARRY: MR. CHAIRMAN: remaining. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman - Order, please! $200 million. Now, Mr. Chairman - Order, please! Mr. Chairman, this government - Order, please!

The han. minister has one minute - this government puts itself on record, stands tall in the saddle, stands with pride of place, Mr. Chairman, in comparing its record of compassion and sympathy and understanding for the rural communities, for the communities that may be suffering some temporary, we hope, reverses with respect to employment, for the mining communities wh.i.ch see their mines be.ing depleted. We 21 81 ... ...

March 30, 1981, Tape 770, Page 3 -- apb MR. BARRY: We stand second to none, Mr. Chairman, in terms of compassion and sympathy and understanding for the people of these communities, and we prove it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The bon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Chairman, that is unbelieveable. Of all the speeches I have heard re Buchans in this House of Assembly, that is the speech that I intend to take out of Hansard and photostat. Now, let me - MR. BARRY: And I hope you send it to every single household in Buchans. MR.

F'LIGHT: - let me ask the minister this: Where was he when the people of Buchans came in and said, 'Look, we want access to Howley. Would you give us a road to Howley? - twenty-eight miles, I think. And then we had the Hinds Lake deve'lopment whereby almost two-thirds of the road was put in place anyway.

But this government, the same civil servants, the same deputy ministers, the same ministers said, 'No, the Buchans - Howley road is not a consideration, we are going to build a Buchans - Southwest Brook road, that is the road that makes all the sense, that is the road which ties in with the general transportation scheme of this Province, that is the, when we look at long-term transportation, road we are going to build'. And they, Mr. Chairman, said it. They built ten miles of the road. 218 2 .. ,

Mar ch 30, 1981 Tape 771 PK - 1 MR. BARRY: Who? Who? MR. FLIGHT: The ~oores administration. MR. BARRY: Oh, the previous administration. MR. FLIGHT: The previous administration of which the minister was proud to be a part, Mr. Chairman, until the people of Placentia - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. FLIGHT: Oh, oh ! The one which made all of the mistakes. - until the people of Placentia saw through the minister and sent him off to Dalhousie for four years. MR. BARRY: They want me now. They want me now. MR. FLIGHT: And maybe, Mr. Chairman, I do not know, Mr. Chair men, - MR.

BARRY: ·They realize their mistake now. MR. FLIGHT: I do not know, Mr. Chairman, maybe when the hbn. minister was a professor at Dalhousie writing constitutional reports for the Government of Newfoundland, maybe those reports dealt with the Buchans-Burgeo-Southwest road. MR. BARRY: No (Inaudible). MR. FLIGHT: got off the rails. Maybe that is where the concept Because, Mr. Chairman, this · government accepted the Buchans-Burgeo road as a priority. 'No Buchans-Howley road,we are going to build a Buchans-Southwest Brook road, and we are going to do it for two reasons', Mr.

Chairman, 'one, is that all of the expert advice we have in this Province today points to that road, supports that concept, and secondly, we recognize that given the fact that Buchans has only three or four more years of mining left , in the short-term anyway, it is the 2183 .. , ''I .. ,

,.,. March 30, 1981 Tape 771 PK - 2 MR. FLIGHT: one thing that we can do to guarantee the future viability- .to guarantee the people of Buchans have something to turn to~ As was pointed out in the Buchans Task Force Report, Mr. Chairman, and accepted by government, there were job opportunities identified with the completion of that road. Now, Mr. Chairman, they accepted that and they built ten miles of it.

Did the minister ever see the ten mile~ of road up by Lloyds Lake that very few Newfoundlanders have even seen, the best ten miles of gravel road in the Province today' Has the minister . ... , seen that ten miles of road? •·1 MR. BARRY: No, I have not been down there ·. MR . FLIGHT: No, Mr. Chairman, he looks down at his book and he reads. And then, Mr. Chairman, he tells us­ he called it a fantasy road, a mystical,fantasy road. MR. MOORES: Now,there you go. MR. FLIGHT: Now, Mr. Chairman, after fifty years of non-stop mining in Buchans - there is a generation in Buchans today, Mr.

Chairman, forty-four or forty-five years old, a fourth generation of Newfoundlanders • 1-le are not looking at the close-down of an ordinary mine where somebody goes to work for ten years and the mine closes down, like is the history of mining in Canada, Mr. Chairman, we are looking at a community, we are looking at a way of life. And the people of Buchans are groping and they are trying, Mr. Chairman, they are looking for ways to continue to maintain a town, and to have a reason to live there, and to be able to live in dignity, to make a living, Mr.

Chairman, and one of the solutions was the Buchans-Southwest Brook road, a road, Mr. Chairman, that will serve all of Newfoundland, As I said a few minutes ago, if Buchans disappeared, if 2184 "I

March 30, 1981 Tape 771 PK - 3 MR. FLIGHT: it were ,not there that road makes sense, Mr. Chairman. Now I wonder , Mr. Chairman - there has been minister upon minister in Buchans since the crisis carne , since the government accepted some responsibility to the people of Buchans by the way of guaranteeing that they would do what they could do. Now, Mr. Chairman, let it be on record here that only one recommendation of the Buchans Task Force Report that wc>s submitted to this government two or three years ago, only one of the recommendations ·has been acted on, Mr.

Chairman, one, and that was the incorporation of the town of Buchans. MR. MOORES: Shame. MR. FLIGHT: A town council in the town of Buchans. The amalgamation of the two towns that existed there- the minister knows what I am talking about-and the incorporation of the town of Buchans. MR. BAIRD: That is performance. MR. FLIGHT: Now, Mr. Chairman, we did not need an action committee and we did not need a Buchans Task Force and we did not need the Dyer Industrial Inquiry - MR. MOORES: Government with (inaudible) • MR. FLIGHT: - to incorporate the town of Buchans. When the company recognized, Mr.

Chairman, and they recognized it, that they were on the way out of Bu