S C Province of Newfoundland FORTY-FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Volume XLI Second Session Number 75 PRELIMINAR Y REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush . Tuesday 13 November 1990

The House met at 2:00 p.m. Development. . . Mr. Speaker (Lush): Order, please! The hon. the Member for Fogo Mr. t4insor: Mr. Speaker, I would like to take a moment of the House's time to ask you through your office to pass on condolences to the family of the late Terry Trainor. Mr. Trainor was formerly of St. John's, but died in Vancouver this weekend. He had a long involvement with sports and recreation in this Province, being manager of the St. John's Caps from 1972 to 1987, president of several hockey and softball leagues, a member of the Provincial and St. John's softball Halls of Fame.

In view of his great contributions to sport and recreation in this Province, we think it only fitting that this House pass on the condolences to the family of the late Mr. Trainor. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Mr. Cullage: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House would like to add to the comments of the hon. Member in condolences going to the family of the late Terry Trainor. An individual who has served this Province well in many, many field, particularly the field of sport. I knew him personally.

He was a family man, and certainly will be missed by many people, in many areas of life in this Province. And we would like to add our condolences to those of the Opposition. Statements by Ministers The hon. the Minister of Mr. Furey: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, soon to be known as Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador Corporation, in conjunction with the Economic Recovery Commission has approved financing in the amount of $2.9 million to provide the necessary support to ensure that Arctic Seafood's Limited is able to establish a shrimp processing plant in L'Anse-a-Loup, Southern Labrador. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Furey: This company, Mr.

Speaker, is a joint venture between the Labrador Fishermen's Union Shrimp Company Limited, Ole Basse Mortensen Trading Company Limited of Denmark and Octagon Investments Limted. This venture will create new long-term employment opportunities for 73 people on a full-time, seasonal and part-time basis to process 6 million pounds of shrimp this year. Mr.

Speaker, fish landings and related processing employment were down to unacceptably low levels in Coast Labrador this year and the L'Anse-a-Loup operation of the Fishermen's Union Shrimp Company has adopted an aggressive approach to expand its capital facilities to process shrimp and thus provide more employment in this area.

Initially, NLDC had approved $1 million in capital investment and a further $1.6 million in bridge financing to support this initiative, but when sources of working capital were scarce, the Development Corporation responded by ensuring that the project will proceed with a further infusion of Ll November 13, 1990 vol XLI No. 75 Rl

$300,000. Mr. Speaker, another essential feature of this financial arrangement is the investment of $1.1 million by the three principal private sector, participants in the Arctic Seafoods joint venture. This demonstrates, I believe, the faith of the investors in this project. Mr. Speaker, I am also pleased to inform the House that the Economic Recovery Team, which serves as the Board of Directors for the Development Corporation, played the role of a development lender rather than a purely commerical banker in supporting this very important project.

Understanding as it did, that lines of credit are thin at this point in time, NLDC acted quickly to ensure that this project would proceed. With the total investment of $2.9 million in this project, the 73 plant workers can look forward to employment in Southern Labrador.

While it is clearly the case that our economy must be diversified to provide growth from new sectors and economic initiatives, the Recovery Team is aware that the fishing industry is the lifeblood of the rural regions of our Province and has acted to ensure that the fishing industry in Southern Labrador remains viable through diversification of its processing capacity, while traditional stocks rebuild. Mr.

Speaker, $1.3 million of the investment in Arctic Seafoods Limited will be repaid over a period of ten years from sales and the remaining financing will be repaid from the eventual pay-out of a $1.6 million contribution to the project by the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency. I would like to acknowledge and commend ACOA for their support in this worthwhile project. I am very pleased, Mr. Speaker, to recognize the leadership role of the Economic Recovery Commission in fostering the growth of business and enterprise in our Province.

The Recovery Team is not only responsible for helping to remove some of the bottlenecks that have prevented good business ideas from being developed, but it also serves in the demanding role as the Board of Directors of the Development Corporation. It is this leadership role, Mr. Speaker, which has resulted in the opening of the Twillingate Fish Plant this past summer thereby creating and maintaining 350 jobs. There are many other examples , Mr. Speaker, which I will be pleased to report to this House on another occasion. Mr.

Speaker, lastly, I would like to inform the House of the tremendous amount of time and effort undertaken by the MIIA for Eagle River on this particular project. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Furey: Mr. Speaker, this hon. Member's considerable efforts to see this employment generating project take place for the people of Eagle River should not go unnoticed. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. Mr. Matthews: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would first like to thank the Minister for providing us with a copy of the statement a few . . L2 November 13, 1990 vol XLI No. 75 R2

. minutes before the House proceedings began this afternoon, and would like to say initially that we welcome this announcement the Minister has delivered today. It is a very positive announcement for the people of L'Anse Aux Loup, Labrador, and I say it is about time that the Minister of Development stood in his place and delivered a few positive statements for the people of the Province.

Some seventy-three people will get employment on a full-time, seasonal, or part-time basis, and a question mark to the Minister is, how many of the seventy-three jobs will be full-time, and how many jobs were there before at this operation before this announcement was made today? Another thing that deserves applauding in the statement, Mr.

Speaker, I guess, is that the people connected with the L'Anse Aux Loup operation, or the Fishermen's Union Shrimp Company, certainly deserve to be applauded for the aggressive approach they have taken to expand the facilities to process shrimp in this particular area of Labrador, and to provide employment, so they certainly deserve applause for that. I understand that a gentleman by the name of Mr. Flynn has certainly been front and center in bringing about this development to Labrador. Another interesting observation, Mr.

Speaker, in the statement, is that there is a $1.6 million contribution to the project by ACOA, and, of course, that is something that has received a lot of criticism in the Province by certain individuals over the last number of months, so i think it is worthy that we draw attention to that $1.6 million investment as well. All in all, Mr. Speaker, we find the statement very positive. We applaud the Minister for bringing it forward, we applaud all those in Labrador who have contributed and played a

part in bringing this to fruition. We just hope that the people in L'Anse Aux Loup get much needed employment. In concluding I was going to mention the MBA for Eagle River, who certainly, I am sure, has played a very significant part. He stands up for Labrador. The only one I can compare to the Member for Eagle River in standing up, as he does, for his area of Labrador is the Member for Torngat Mountains. I applaud the Member for Eagle River for doing that, and thank the Minister for the statement. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! oSi Questions Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Rideout: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the House will recall that some days ago now in response to questions from this side of the House, the Minister of Education indicated that cuts in the Education Budget in 91-92 could exceed, to use his words, $30 million. In the absence of the Minister, I would like to direct a question to the Premier. Can the Premier confirm that the Department of Education has been told to cut its Budget for 91-92 by $40 million, and they are to do that through a combination of expenditure reductions, increased taxation by L3 November 13, 1990 vol XLI No. 75 R3

school tax authorities, and user fees for student transportation? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: No, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: Mr. Speaker, the Premier, no doubt, will be aware that Department of Education officials met this weekend past with school board representatives to specifically target areas for expenditure reduction and revenue generation.

I wonder whether the Premier can tell the House whether or not school boards have been told that there will be a freeze on per pupil operating grants this coming year, a reduction in grants for student transportation, declining enrollment grants will be frozen, energy conservation grants and so on will be frozen, the net effect being that school boards in the next fiscal year will have 8 per cent less to spend on school board operations, below what they had to spend this year? Mr. Speaker: the hon. the Premier Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, I say again no decisions have as yet been made.

The Department of Education and all the 'boards that receive funding through the Department of Education have been asked to look at what would be the consequences of taking these decisions. Now undoubtedly there is going to be some limitation on funding, and there may well be boards or divisions or offices in education which will not have any more money to spend in the coming fiscal year, that is 91-92, than they have in this current fiscal year. There will undoubtedly be some boards and some offices that will have increases.

I do not know what the situation is going to be, but in a specific answer to the questions put by the Leader of the Opposition, to the best of my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, no such board or agency was given any such specific direction. Now the Minister of Education is not in the House today. He is attending OECD meetings, at, I might say, the expense of the Federal Government, in Europe. He should be back, I believe, on Thursday or Friday. So what he told them or what was told to them under his direction, I can get more specifically when he returns. It would be inconvenient until then. Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr. Speaker, since the Premier is not prepared at this point in time to confirm what expenditure reductions were discussed with the school boards over the weekend, can the Premier confirm that the Department of Education has been told to ask school boards to ask school tax authorities to increase their revenue in the coming fiscal year by 25 to 30 per cent? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: I can only say, Mr. Speaker, that no such direction caine from Cabinet.

Now I do not know who else would tell the Department of Education; only Cabinet would give such a direction to the Department of Education, and I can say no such formal request or instruction was . rj r L4 November 13, 1990 Vol XLI No. 75 R4

. . . given by any Cabinet meeting at which I was present. And the President of Treasury Board can advise whether Treasury Board or the Ministry of Finance had issued such instructions. And I do not see any indication that is so, I think it is just one of those red herrings and rumours. No such instruction has been given. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: Mr. Speaker, we will see how much of a red herring it is over the next few days. I told the Premier, the meeting took place on the weekend.

Anyway, as the Premier knows, 75 per cent of the cost of education in this Province is taken care of by teachers' salaries, is eaten up with teachers salaries. Can the Premier tell the House whether or not the Government intends to change the formula for the allocation of teacher units around the Province and in so doing by changing the formula reduce, starting in 1991- 1992, the number of teaching units in the Province by 200 a year starting next year, and 200 the year after, and 200 the year after, for a total of 600 teachings units to disappear in the Province over the next three years?

Does the Premier know anything about that, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier Premier Wells: No, Mr. Speaker. To the best of my knowledge, that is all pure fabrication. I have never heard any such thing. Whether or not any teacher or any school board or any official at any time suggested this might be a way to control expenditures, I do not know. But his question is, has there been any instruction or direction given from Government? No. The answer is no, and there is no doubt about that. There is no such instruction given by Government. Mr.

Rideout: The Premier doesn't know anything at all about the weekend meeting (inaudible), does he? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley. Mr. Woodford: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the absence of the Minister of Education, I will direct my questions to the Premier. On October 31 the Minister of Social Services announced a child abuse prevention program called Put The Child First. The program involves workshops for adults working with children, and special emphasis has been placed on workshops for teachers.

Does the Premier support this program, and has he asked the school boards through his Minister to co-operate with the agencies offering these workshops? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, I have no doubt that the entire Government supports the program, but I have not asked any particular division or office of Government to co-operate. Of course, if it is a Government program of the Department of Social Services, then all agencies of Government will co-operate. Mr. Efford: The St. John Ambulance program (inaudible). Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley. Mr.

Woodford: A supplementary, L5 November 13, 1990 Vol XLI No. 75 RS

Mr. Speaker. Would the Premier be aware that the agencies offering this program requested a two-day workshop, in this case - I just heard the Minister of Social Services mention some of them. They are called The Child Protection Team - a two-day workshop for teachers in my area, especially from Pasadena to Port au Choix, and the dates, t think, are November 20 and 21, but because the boards do not have any substitute teaching days. for professional development, the workshop has been reduced to one day and the children will be sent home on that particular day? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier Premier Wells: Mr.

Speaker, in the Budget this year we reduced the proposed expenditure from $14 million for substitute teaching down to 12.8 million, I think was the figure. Now I consider that to be adequate to provide 82,000 substitute days. Now the days are there. What we do not do is tell the principals or the boards what they will use them for.

So if they use them for other things and decide not to use them for that, maybe we will have to look at the way in which they are using it; and if they are not using it in a proper way, we may have to reduce it still further or instruct them that it can only be used for certain purposes. But that remains to be seen. But in the ordinary course, Mr. Speaker, we can entrust that responsibility to the school boards or the principals of the schools concerned who are discharging that responsibility, and I expect them to do what is right in the circumstances.

But what the Government can not and will not do is allow the taxpayers of this Province to be browbeaten into providing unlimited substitute. teacher days under these kinds of pressure tactics. We justwill not do it. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! An Hon. Member: Pressure tactics? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for [lumber Valley. Mr. Woodford: Since this is a programme supported and sponsored by the Provincial Government, will the Premier . provide additional substitute teaching days for this programme which is an important initiative in the prevention of child abuse?

And would the Premier take it upon himself today to look into the reasons why this particular school ' board can not send the teachers and put in substitutes? One of the main reasons is that this administration has taken 548 substitute days off them this year retroactively. Could, the Premier take it upon himself to look into it? And that is fact, Mr. Speaker, retroactively. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Mr. Tobin: Sock it to the teachers! Premier Wells: Nothing has been done retroactively in that respect so far as I know, Mr. Speaker.

But the answer is no, we will not provide additional substitute teaching days. We may direct the Departments to see that they are used for these kinds of purposes instead of other purposes that are less worthy. We may have to do that, I do not know. Basically we would prefer to leave it to the judgement of the school boards and the principals involved, where we . L6 November 13, 1990 vol XLI No. 75 - R6

11 think it is best suited. But we will not allow the policies of the Government to be subverted in this particular way. I am told by the Minister of Social Services that the programme is run by the St. John Ambulance and that it does not have to take place during school days, it can take place on weekends. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains. Mr. Warren: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is also to the Premier.

I understand that during the weekend the Minister of Education met with the Innu Band Council in Sheshatshit and, listening to the media reports, the Minister had said publicly he hoped that within two years the school board would be under Innu control for the school at Sheshatshit. Would the Premier advise or confirm that it is a policy of his Government that within a two year time frame the school at Sheshatshit would be under the control of the Innu Band Council? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier.

Premier Wells: I saw a news report attributed to the Minister and I have not yet had an opportunity to have a discussion with the Minister since his trip to Sheshatshit to deal with this particular problem, so I am not sure of the details of his discussion. I would prefer to wait until I have an opportunity to speak with the Minister to determine what was discussed and what was proposed. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains. Mr. Warren: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

If it is factual that the Minister does foresee the school at Sheshatshit coming under the control of the Innu Band Council, would the Premier also consider that this same option would be open to the Innu community of Davis Inlet? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, what we can not and will not do is treat one Innu community differently than the other. If that is an option that is available in the Innu community of Sheshatshit, then I see no reason why it should not be available in the Innu community of Davis Inlet.

But whether or not there are circumstances that would warrant that different treatment, I do not know. And until I have had an opportunity to consider all aspects of it, I cannot commit to it. But, on the surface, I would say I do not see any obvious reason why one community should be treated differently than the other. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains. Mr. Warren: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My final supplementary to the Premier.

During the past few years the Labrador Inuit Association has been administering the post-secondary education funds and also the non-insurable health benefit program, and they have been doing a fairly good job with those two programs, Mr. Speaker. My question to the Premier, in view of the Minister of Education's weekend meeting with the Innu Band Council, if the two native associations, the LIA and the NMIA, wish to have control over their education and health programs, would the Premier of the L7 November 13, 1990 vol XLI No. 75 Ri

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador request that Federal funds go directly to those two organizations so that they can run their own health and education programs? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to speculate on what I might do if such and such happens or if such and such does not happen.

As the hon. member knows, we are in the process or just about to start discussions with the brA on land claims, and I have no doubt that they may well want to discuss in the general context of negotiations respecting land claims the possibility of some level of self-governmental administration of public concerns in the communities affected. We will be discussing those, I have no doubt, at that time. I do not propose to deal with those issues in answer to speculative questions in the House at this stage. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley. Mr..

Woodford: This question is to the Minister of Transportation, Mr. Speaker. In October, the Minister announced cutbacks in the Department of Transportation pertaining to foremen employed by the department. In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that the foremen are very vital to the safety of drivers on the highways and byways of this Province, especially in seeing that early in the morning and late in the night the roads are safe for people moving on the highways, would the minister now admit to the House that this is the reason for so many problems this year on the highways of the Province? Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Mr. Gilbert: No, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley. Mr. Woodford: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Statements made by the Premier and the Minister as of late have said that there were no other changes in the snow clearing policies and procedures this year. Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that the cutbacks concerning overtime to foremen - a foreman has to work thirty-five hours with no pay - Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The hon. Member is on a supplementary. Mr.

Woodford: Would the Minister tell me if a foreman has to work thirty-five hours with no pay, between thirty-five and seventy with one day off, and over that with 10 per cent of his gross annual salary, is he expected to get up early in the morning and to work late at night? Does the Minister consider this to be a fact? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Mr. Gilbert: Mr. Speaker, the foremen in the Department of Works, Services and Transportation were switched to the regular management format overtime scheme and the system is working and working well. Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley. . . L8 Movember 13, 1990 vol XLI No. 75 RB

n . Mr. Woodford: Mr. Speaker, if it is working well on the west coast of the Province I would not want to see it if it was bad, I will tell you that, with what is happening out there and on the Northern Peninsula, which the hon; the Member for St. Barbe represents. - Since October 27, Mr. Speaker, on the west coast of the Province and on the Northern Peninsula, and even just yesterday, I had to make a call to highways in Deer Lake to get the roads done down the coast towards Rocky Harbour. The conditions on the west coast and the Northern Peninsula - Mr. Speaker: Order, please!

Is the hon. - Member on a supplementary? Mr. Woodford: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Then the hon. Member should get to the question. Mr. Woodford: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Minister now tell the House if he would reconsider the position taken by Government with regard to paying overtime to foremen and consider the safety of the driving public first? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Mr. Gilbert: Mr. Speaker, the decision we made was the right one. The system is working.

Just for the Member's information, the Northern Peninsula Highway today has fair to good driving conditions, with some. slippery sections in the Bonne Bay area. Equipment is operating. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Fogo. Mr. Winsor: - Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question, too, is to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Last week in the House the Minister indicated that there had been no cutbacks in the level of service provided, that the trouble with the roads in the Province were due to the fact that it was the first storm for the year.

Is the Minister still sticking to this assertion, that the problems of the roads are problems caused by, the fIrst snowstorm of the year? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Mr. Gilbert: Mr. Speaker, what was said in the House last week was yes, if there were problems it was the fact that it was the first snowfall. As a matter of fact, I have some answers here to some questions that were asked last week which I will give in the right time. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Fogo. Mr. Winsor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish the snowstorms ended as quickly as the Minister. Mr.

Speaker, the highways, a considerable number of days after we had our first snowstorm, are still in deplorable condition. In fact, they were so bad last night that several cars went off the road and so on. Can the Minister now explain the problem with the highways in light of the fact that the first snowstorm is over, the second one is over. Will the No. 75 R9 L9 November 13, 1990 vol XLI

Minister now tell us what is causing the problems? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Fogo. Order, please! Order, please! The hon. the Member for Fogo. Mr. Winsor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary to the Minister.

In view of the fact that the road conditions have gotten worse over the past number of days, can the Minister indicate that he or senior officials in his Department have instructed the supervisory staff to tell foremen to only call in work crews in a pressing emergency - situation and that the real reason the road conditions are as they have been for the past twenty-four hours on the Avalon Peninsula, is that the overtime crews were not called in as they should have been? Mt. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Mr. Gilbert: Mo, Mr. Speaker.

I think what I will table is the road report for today which I just received at one o'clock for the area, so I will table that, now - Mr. Tobin: Why don'.t you table the one for last night?. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main. Mr. Doyle: A question for the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. The Minister recently announced measures for expenditure reductions within his Department, like overtime and what have you, and the Government made the announcement that the Budget for 1991-1992 would be frozen at the current level it is at right now.

Would the Minister inform the House if there are any further measures to be announced, as we are hearing there will be, to reduce the cost of snowclearing and maintenance this present winter? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Mr. Gilbert: No, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main. Mr. Doyle: Mr.

Speaker, there is a great deal of concern being voiced by motorists regarding the slow response time of the various depots across the Province, especially on the West Coast and the Northern Peninsula, and there is no doubt that that vital service is being downgraded, could the Minister tell the House if Government is giving any consideration to privatizing or contracting out the maintenance and snowclearing operations of Government? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Mr. Gilbert: Mr.

Speaker, I would say the concerns are the fearmongering of - the Opposition, and no, is the answer to the other question. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main. Mr. Doyle: Mr. Speaker, in the . . . L10 November 13, 1990 Vol XLI Mo. 75 Rb

Minister's opinion it might be fearmongering, but the Minister has legislation before the House right now to contract out to the banks the services of renewing drivers licences and vehicle registrations, so let me put it to him this way: What further functions within the Department are being looked at to be contracted out to the .private sector? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. Mr. Matthews: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister inform the House if St. Lawrence Fluorspar has requested any financial assistance, or extension of than guarantees from the Province? Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Mr. Gilbert: None, Mr. Speaker Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. Mr. Matthews: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Mines. I am wondering if the Minister could inform the House of the status of the St. Lawrence Fluorspar operation - temporary lay off notices they were referred to,. were issued for November 16, I wonder if the Minister could inform the Houseas to the status of the fluorspar operation and if these lay off notices will indeed come into effect as-of November 16? Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. Dr. Gibbons: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I have nothing further to add to what we already know on the status of St. Lawrence Fluorspar, but certainly over the next few days I hope to find out whether or not there will be an extension of that November 16 deadline. I have no further information at this time. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. Dr. Gibbons: The present loan guarantees to St. Lawrence Fluorspar do not expire until 1993, and there has not been any other request to me concerning any further money.

Mr Speaker: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. Mr. Matthews: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. I am wondering if the Minister could inform the House if he is considering leaving the Sound of Islay on the Caultois - Hermitage run? The people are very concerned about the condition of the fifty-three year old Agnes and Anne, and since the Minister has made changes to the ferry system, laying off some ten workers, it now seems apparent that he has a ferry that he can place in other areas of the Province.

Is the Minister considering leaving the Sound of Islay on the Gaultois - Hermitage run? - Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Mr. Gilbert: Mr. Speaker, we made Lll November 13, 1990 - Vol XLI No. 75 Ril

a decision for the Gaultois - Hermitage run for the remainder of this year, until March 31, and the Department intends to live with that. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl. Mr. Windsor: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Last week I asked the Minister of Finance if he would give us his latest estimate of expected revenue from retail sales tax for this year, and he undertook to get that information for me. I would like to ask the Minister if he has that information now?

In view of the reports over the weekend that the Minister is proposing some changes to retail sales tax, would he tell us what changes he may be proposing, and what the implications might be for this year? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Finance. Dr. Kitchen: Mr. Speaker, we are not making any proposals for changing the retail sales tax. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl. Mr. Windsor: Mr. Speaker, that is contrary to what the Minister was saying in an interview - that they are looking at the possibility of changing and broadening the base for the retail sales tax.

I should advise the Minister that if he broadens the base he does indeed change the retail sales tax drastically. Let me ask the Minister again, Mr. Speaker, is the Minister proposing to broaden the base for retail sales tax, and if so what will be the impact on the revenues from that source? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Finance. Dr. Kitchen: I welcome the question. We have not made any statements about what we are going to do.

What we have decided to do is to ask the officials in the Department of Finance to study the whole question of the effects of the goods and service tax on the people of the Province, and also, how it would affect the retail sales tax. Some of the problems involved are the hardships impoed on businesses in having to operate with two different sets of regulations, some items taxed under the GST and not under the RST, and some under the RST and not under the GST, and so on. It is confusing for businesses, and in addition it is confusing for people. We have no plans to piggyback, or to do anything like that.

What we are planning to do is to just complete our study, and then we will look at what happens and see what we are going to do, but at the - moment we have absolutely no plans to make any changes. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl. Mr. Windsor: Mr. Speaker, it was reported on Friday that a report was being submitted on Friday to the Minister. Has the Minister received that report, and is he prepared to tell us what the recommendations might be? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Finance. Dr. Kitchen: Thank you Mr. Speaker. The report is not quite finished.

I had an oral briefing on the report, even the rough draft is 11 . . L12 November 13, 1990 vol XLI No. 75 1112

. 11 r . not ready yet. So I am expecting to get that rough draft in the next few days. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) Dr. Kitchen: Well it is a draft, we will say, never mind the rough part. Rough means maybe the sentences are not always smooth and so on, rather than a hard draft. But when the draft is in I will discuss it with officials and then they will go back and polish it off and submit it back to the Government. So shortly, maybe in a week or so the thing will be finished and then Government will study it as quickly as possibie and make whatever decisions it makes.

At the moment I might say this, that one of the big differences between the goods and service tax and the retail sales tax is that the goods and service tax proposes to put a 7 per cent tax on home heating and electricity, and for us to put 12 per cent or 10 per cent on these two items it would be extremely difficult, it would be very, very difficult. But there are certain compensatory things that are happening, maybe we could look at some base broadening. But it is too early to make any statements about that yet. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl. Mr. Windsor: Mr.

Speaker, obviously the Minister is looking at those options for the next Budget, hopefully not in the middle of a year at least. I ask the Premier: in a report over the weekend that the Government is considering some changes to the school tax system, could the Premier tell us what changes are being considered there? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: No, Mr. Speaker. I simply restated the position that we have had all along.

We were either going to abolish the existing school tax system and fund education directly out of General Government Revenue, or otherwise we are going to reform it in such a way as to ensure that people in all parts of the Province are treated equitably and fairly, so that those people who live in areas where there is not a substantial school tax base do not have their quality of education impaired by reason of having their boards having less revenue to deal with it. So we are either going to abolish it or going to reform it. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the ability to do that depends on a host of other things, a rearrangement perhaps of responsibility. We have to look at what the municipalities are doing or will need to do, because the kinds of tax that the School Tax Authorities collect are taxes generally of a municipal nature. So we have to look at whether or not there can be some rearrangement there to allow municipalities to collect a greater level of tax and take the School Tax Authorities out of it and spend more money, on education instead of on grants to municipalities or whatever.

So there are a number of things that we are looking at, but we are not yet in a position, Mr. Speaker, to make any final decisions. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for i-lumber East. Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier. At the end of last week L13 November 13, 1990 vol XLI Mo. 75 Rl3

the Premier made statements to the news media about the current Public Service Commission competition for the position of Director of Cultural Affairs, a position that has been vacant since March 31, 1989. The Premier cast aspersions on the qualifications of the applicants. My question is: What is the Premier of the Province doing tampering with this Public Service Commission job competition? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier Premier Wells: I am not, Mr. Speaker. I do not know of a single person who has applied. I do not know anything about it.

All I know is there was a public, service job competition and what we did was used the job description designed by the O'Flaherty Commission. That was the job discription which was used. Now I think the O'Flaherty Commission probably wrote the utopian description for that job. I am not sure that we can get applicants for the money available for the job to fit all the requirements, and this is an opinion that has been expressed to me by people whose judgement I trust in the matter, or information that was passed on.

There is some uncertainty as to whether the applicants who have applied can meet all aspects of the job description. . So this is all I was saying. Mr. Speaker: Question Period has expired. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. Mr. Efford: Mr. Speaker I hereby table the annual report for the Department of Social Services for the year 1989/1990. Notices of Notion Mr. Speaker: The hon.- the Member for Harbour Main. Mr. Doyle: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following resolution on behalf of my colleague the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes who could not be here today.

WHEREAS the Liberal Party's 1989 election manifesto said our future economic success depends more on the improvements we make in our education programmes than any other single factor and;

WHEREAS the announced policy of the Liberal Government is to freeze 1991/1992 funding for education at the revised expenditure level for the current year;

BE IT RESOLVED that the House urge the present Government to exempt education from the announced budget freeze and to fulfill its commitment to fund improvements in our education programmes on which our future economic success depends. Mr. Speaker: Further Notices of Motion? The hon. the President of the Council. Mr. Baker: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move pursuant to Standing Order 50, that debate or further consideration on Motion Number 3 - . 1.14 November 13, 1990 vol XLI No. 75 R14

14 . 11 Some Hon. Members: (Inaudible) An Hon. Member: Not closure again! Mr. Baker: - respecting certain resolutions for the granting of supplementary supply to her Majesty, Bill No. 66 - An Hon. Member: After one day of debate? Mr. Baker: - standing in the name of the hon. the Minister of Finance and any amendments to that Motion shall not be further adjourned. That further consideration of any resolutions, amendments, clauses, sections,

preambles, schedules, titles or whatever else might be related to Motion Number 3 shall be the first business of the House when next called by the House and shall not be further postponed. Some Hon. Members: (Inaudible) Mr. Speaker: Order please! Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Mr. Gilbert: Thank you Mr. Speaker. Some Hon. Members: (Inaudible). Mr. Speaker: Order please! The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Mr. Gilbert: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

On last Wednesday the Leader of the Opposition asked the Premier some questions in my absence and we heard him again today. So I was rather brief today because I intended to give the answer at the conclusion under this period. The first question the Leader of the Opposition asked was: when was the Department going to be ready. The Department of Works, Services and Transportation starts to prepare for the winter operations in September. And the majority of it is ready for operation in November. Winter maintenance shifts usually start on December 1 in most areas when the highway crews report to work at 5:00 a.m.

In the St. Anthony area the winter shift starts early in November, depending on the weather. Now, a storm started on the northern peninsula area on the night of October 31. On November 1 the Department had two flyer trucks equipped with plows, wings, and salt-hoppers in operation on Route 430 between Plumb Point and Daniels Harbour where the storm was most severe. The equipment worked from six a.m. to eight p.m. during continuous snow and drifting snow. The roads were becoming blocked behind the plow most of the day and the equipment was removed from the highway in the evening due to weather conditions.

On November 2 the plows worked from six a.m. to seven p.m. The snow stopped at 4 p.m. and there was packed snow on thehighway at this time, salt was applied through the day in an effort to melt the snow remaining on the highway. On November 3, Saturday, crews started work at eight a.m. and worked for three hours cleaning up the roads. The Operation's Supervisor Foreman decided to wait until Monday morning to clean up the remaining slush on the highways, and that was his decision. All equipment LiS November 13, 1990 vol XLI No. 75 RlS

in this area was not fully equipped for Winter maintenance when the storm started on October 31, therefore many of the side roads, to communities and school bus routes were not cleared until after the storm had stopped. Snowclearing equipment from Rocky Harbour unit was operating on Route 430 from six a.m. on November 1 and 2, between Daniels Harbour and Cormack intersection. The Operation's Supervisor decided that weather conditions did not warrant calling out the crews on Saturday, November 3.

Baie verte; prior to the snowstorm which started in the Baie verte area on October 31 the majority of highway equipment in this area was working on Summer maintenance repairing washouts due to previous rainfalls; On Thursday,, November 1 equipment from Baie Verte and the La Scie units were out at five a.m. and worked until eight p.m. the graders did not have plows and wings attached therefore some community roads were not cleared until late in the day. One grader working between Burlington and West Port was out clearing snow all night.

Avondale; due to an early morning storm on Wednesday, November 7, two flyer snowplows fully equipped for Winter maintenance left the Fox Trap depot at six a.m. to clear snow on the Trans-Canada Highway between St. John's city limits to Roaches Line. They completed their work at approximately seven p.m. after making four trips each way and placing 100 tons of salt on this

section of the highway. Operation supervisors and highway supervisors are management staff, and it is their duty to patrol the highways under their jurisdiction, using discretion to order the Winter maintenance crew to work whenever they feel it is necessary due to weather conditions. The policy for payment of overtime for operation supervisors and highway supervisors changed recently. They will be paid for overtime work in future according to the management overtime policy. Winter maintenance crews are paid for overtime work according to the collective agreement. That is it, Mr.

Speaker, and I will now table this. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, there were a couple of questions on Friday. One was by the hon. the Member for St. John's, East Extern relating to two or three automobiles. One was a Chevy Blazer which he said was reportedly seen on many occasions at the Bally Haly Golf and Country Club.

Then I will deal with the others that he raised; When we took office we eliminated the use by the parliamentary assistant to the Premier of an automobile at Government expense, and we used it and assigned it for general use in the Premier's office, where the staff have to go on errands all over the place. Now, Mr. Speaker, some time ago it was brought to my attention that the parliamentary assistant had this and I stopped the use of it, or so I thought. Mr.

Speaker, the vehicle has not been used, I am told, for personal use, but the way the vehicle was managed was it was managed by the parliamentary assistant, and in fact, he did indeed, on a couple of occasions on the way home, stop by and play golf, so the Member was quite right. I discovered that when the Member told me about it, for the first time in the House. I . r L L16 November 13, 1990 vol XLI No. 75 R16

. . disagree totally, and I ant strongly critical of the judgement of the parliamentary assistant in using the vehicle in that way, and I have left strict instructions, Mr. Speaker, that the keys are to be in the custody and care of the chief of staff, and for that vehicle to be used strictly for purposes of carrying out errands and discharging the duties of the office of the Premier by individuals on staff, when and as necessary, but otherwise it is to remain here. I regret that this has happened and I thank the hon. Member for bringing it to my attention.

Now, he mentioned a grey Oldsmobile alleged to be seen and parked, I can find no evidence whatsoever that such is the case. If the hon. Member has particular evidence of it, I would appreciate his letting me have it. But I can find none, I have done a thorough search. Finally, he referred to a blue automobile. I have forgotten when the accident occurred, but it was demolished in an accident about six or eight or ten months ago, I have forgotten when, he says it was somehow used to move furniture a year or so ago. I can find no evidence that such occurred. I have no basis for believing that it is so. If the hon.

Member has any evidence of it I would appreciate his providing me with the information. The second question, Mr. Speaker, was from the hon. the Member for Grand Falls and his question was with respect to the three members of the Public Utilities Board going to a conference in Florida, they were leaving Friday or Saturday, I have forgotten. Premier Wells: Saturday, I think. And he enquired as to whether that was so. I caused an immediate enquiry to be made, Mr.

Speaker, and I discovered that the chairman, the vice-chairman and one commissioner left on Saturday to attend the convention of the National Association of Regulatory Utilities Commissioners which is the counterpart to the Canadian Association. Newfoundland Public Utilities Board is a member of both Commissions, Mr. Speaker, and the Public Utilities Board of Newfoundland has sent a delegation every year since 1980. Its meeting is recognized as the leading forum for presentation of practices and theories regarding public utilities and their proper regulation. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I think it is obvious that the PU Board should go, to stay abreast of Public Utility practice. I question the need for three members of any one boai-d to go, and I raised that question. The situation at the moment is they took advantage of a seat sale, and they had their tickets bought and paid for on a seat sale basis and if they did not go the value would be lost anyway. So they are gone now. I can express approval. I am sure the former Government thought it was appropriate that they should attend such conferences in the past because they have been doing it for the last ten years.

So r can understand the desirability of a representative being there. I question the need for three, and, Mr. Speaker, we will take steps to issue guidelines to the PU Board as to how they should operate in the future. An Hon. Member: Saturday. Petitions Mo. 75 Rh Li? November 13, 1990 Vol XLI

Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Menihek. asking what? r Premier Wells: Why wait a year? Mr. A. Snow: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It am pleased to have the opportunity to rise and present a petition on behalf of 366 residents of Menihek protesting the closure, not the closure that we heard about here today, closure of an office that delivered a Government service to Western Labrador for the last ten or eleven year, it is the Motor Vehicle Registration Office that was closed, with the loss of two jobs to Western Labrador.

But more importantly than the two jobs even, although they are very important to those two individuals who lost their employment, more importantly than that is the service that is now not given to the people of Western Labrador after their contributing so much to the wealth of this Province.

We contribute more economic wealth to this Province than any other electoral district in this Province and yet the Government sees fit to take this service away from them, to shut down this office, and no longer will the people of Western Labrador be able to go and buy their licences or renew their licences at a Government office in Labrador; they will have to wait one year, one year they will have to wait in order to be able to use this new streamlined service of which the Premier talked in response to the petition.

They will have to wait one year and pay an additional one dollar in service according to - Premier Wells: (Inaudible). Mr. A. Snow: Yes? The Premier is Mr. A. Snow: Because the service will not be available in the banks for one year, the people in Western Labrador, Mr. Premier, will not have this service the people in the rest of the Province can make use of, and this is terribly unfair. The people cannot understand when the Premier talks about how his mind was boggled that the people of Western Labrador would be upset over losing this service.

I am sure, now that he understands why they are upset, that he is going to be checking on this Minister to ensure that he does his job properly, and that is not remove this service for a complete year, but reinstate this service now, before the end of November, because that is when the office will be closed. We are talking about a savings here, a perceived savings or a savings the Minister stated to be about $80,000 a year. Now, he is going to save $80,000 a year on the backs of these two employees mind you.

The only two employees in Motor Vehicle Registration there he is going to fire them out the door, one with sixteen years seniority. So this compassion which is above the bottom line of which we have heard so much is definitely not applicable in Western Labrador, it is only applicable here, on the Island portion of the Province, I suppose, and the people of Western Labrador are thoroughly upset with it. They cannot understand why they are going to lose this service for a complete year while the . . L18 November 13, 1990 Vol XLI No. 75 P18

I Goi,ernment, this particular Department, is attempting - attempting now mind you - to negotiate this new deal with a bank; they are going to privatize this service, they are going to give the banks some more money now. Not only will a resident of Western Labrador have to pay extra for his licence for this year or when this new service comes in, but the banks, I would assume, will also be charging this Government a service. I assume that is what is going to occur. I sin hoping the Minister will stand up on his two hind legs and respond to that.

We are hoping he is going to be able to tell the people of Western Labrador where the savings are going to be, because they are visibly upset up there.

They are really demanding that the Minister come into Western Labrador to tell them how this new service is going to be implemented and how they are supposed to be excited about this new streamlined action in saving this Government money, when we all know this particular Minister bungled a contract on the Ossok bridge, on the Trans-Labrador Highway, and cost this Government, the taxpayers of this Province $1.5 million extra, $1.5 million which would have kept this office open in Labrador for another ten years, if they had done the contract properly in the first place.

But now I ask this Government to reconsider, keep this office open so that the people of Western Labrador do not have to wait a full year for this new streamlined service to come into effect. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, we are going to implement this program for the whole of the Province so that the whole of the Province will have improved access to drivers' licences and driver registration. Now this legislation has been on the Order Paper since the spring. Hon. Members know what they have been doing in holding up Government legislation.

We have great trouble getting legislation through the House, we have to invoke closure on every other piece of legislation simply because hon. Members Opposite just hold up the Government's agenda. We cannot get the ordinary business through the House without invoking closure. The Government House Leader just stood here in the House today and gave notice of closure again, and, Mr. Speaker, we may have to do it.

And if we have to do it to get the people's business done on every single piece of legislation because an insensitive Opposition care more about promoting their own political ends than they do about governing this Province in the best interest of taxpayers - An Hon. Member: You are more (inaudible) than you are in the Province.

Premier Wells: If the Members of the Opposition are more concerned about promoting their own political ends than they are about looking after the interest of the taxpayers of this Province, we are going to have more trouble getting good solid legislation through this House, and other legislation, like that piece of legislation, will be held up. • Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! L19 November 13, 1990 Vol XLI No. 75 P19

, Premier Wells: We will see. Mr. Speaker, we will implement that programme as soon as we get the legislation through the House and the authorization to do it. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. A. Snow: (Inaudible) the Department is saying and the public relations people are saying, Mr. Premier. Mr. Rideout: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. What a sad performance by the leader of a Government. Mr. Speaker, a piece of legislation that has been on the Order Paper since some time last spring, March 15, has not even been called yet by the Government.

All they were interested in last spring when this House was in session was, night after night day after day, Meech Lake. There was no legislation called. This Government did not call any legislation for the last several weeks of last spring. We have now been into the House this fall for two or three weeks and they bring forward a loan bill that was on the Order Paper since last spring We co-operated with the Government to allow a piece of legislation related to Hibernia to go through with hardly any debate. If the Premier or the Government House Leader wants to call that piece of legislation, let him call it.

Ms Verge: Call it now! Mr. Rideout: Let him call it today, Mr. Speaker. But do not think this Government is going to find a situation where this Opposition. allows Government spending bills, money bills, to go through this House in a flick, in a day or so, when this Government does not have the intestinal fortitude to bring in a budget. That is what they should be doing, Mr. Speaker. They should be bringing in a budget. Because the other document, of last March, was deceit, it was a fraud, the Government knew it, the Minister knew it, the Premier knew it and now everybody in Newfoundland and Labrador knows it.

And do you think we are going to let you hide behind the skirts of emergency legislation? You come talk to us if you have a problem. I told the Government House Leader before, when this session started, that if he had a problem on a piece of legislation, come talk to us and we will be receptive and co-operative. Some Hon. Members: (Inaudible) when he talks?. Mr. Rideout: Mr. Speaker - Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Mr. Rideout: - the point of the petition just brought forward by my colleague from Menihek is this.

Even if this legislation is passed today, if the House agrees to pass that legislation today, my understanding is that it will be one year hence before the new programme will be implemented in Labrador West. And that means that the people of Labrador West are being discriminated against. You are going to close the Motor Registration office up there and have two less people working, that is bad enough. You are going to do that at the end of November, but you are going to treat the Newfoundlanders and Labradorians living in Labrador West differently than anywhere else in I S .

L20 November 13, 1990 vol XLI No. 75 R20

. . this Province. And that is not fair, Mr. Speaker. So it has nothing to do with passing the legislation, with the foolishness or nonsense the Premier got on with. This Government is too incompetent, Mr. Speaker, to have or bring forward a legislative agenda. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Rideout:. Yes, that is another piece of truth that old Pinnochio over there gets on with every know and then. I heard the Premier on Open Line - I did not hear him - yesterday talking about this House being open longer this year than any other year.

What another piece of nonsense and deception, Mr. Speaker. I have some statistics on other years. We will talk about them in debate later today. But, you know, this Government now has used closure more times than any other Government since Confederation and they have only been in office eighteen months. What a legacy. You should be some proud. You should all be clapping your heads and clapping one another on the back for how competent you are in managing the affairs of the people of this Province. Mr. Speaker: Further petitions? The hon. the Member for Green Bay Mr. Hewlett: Thank you. Mr.

Speaker, I have a petition from thirty-seven people from Green Bay, one from Windsor District, who, by the surname, obviously originated in Green Bay. The people, apart from the person from Windsor, were from Springdale, King's Point, Robert's Arm and Rattling Brook. And the prayer of the petition is as follows, Mr. Speaker: Because an expenditure freeze in the health care system will mean layoffs and bed closures, we, the undersigned residents of Green Bay District, petition the hon. House of Assembly not to approve such a freeze. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this is a petition, the wording of which I presented on a number of days following in this hon. House, but obviously with no effect on the Government opposite. I was in my district again this weekend and the concern out there is growing. People are really worried about their health care system.

In particular, there is one concern that seems to be growing as a result of the comment the Minister of Health made in response to one of my petitions the other day, and that was rather than spreading the pain of the freeze throughout both. the senior citizens complex and the hospital, the Government is adtively considering the actual closure of the hospital itself. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, if it does that, the job loss will be considerably more than the twenty persons that would have come out of the scenario put forward by the administration of the hospital. Mr. Speaker, the nearest hospital is Grand FaLls.

The other hospital the people of the area use is in Corner Brook. Now if we close the local hospital in springdale and we have a major cutback program at both Corner Brook and Grand Falls, that is only going to make a bad situation worse Mo. 75 R21 L21 November 13, 1990 vol XLI

- Mr. Speaker, the health care system in this Province, especially in the larger regional centres, is badly overloaded. Closing small regional hospitals certainly will not help. Nursing home beds: There is already a considerable lineup; many, many months of waiting in order to get into the Valley Vista Senior Citizens Complex. If this freeze goes about with the impact on the Valley Vista Home as calculated by the local management, twenty-four beds will close. In other words, twenty-four people will either. have to move out or pass away.

Excuse me, twenty-five will have to move out or pass away before there will be one new admission. That means that a waiting list which is normally months will become years, and that is the only major nursing home facility - in that entire area. Mr. Speaker, this Government got elected on a mandate to expand the health care system in this Province. It basically promised to open health care beds where the demand existed. I remember very well they were very negative to the former administration when in times of restraint beds were closed temporarily during the Summer period, Unfortunately, Mr.

Speaker, this Government seems to have had a very short memory as to its political commitments to the people of this Province and, quite literally, people are amazed that the major plank in this Government's platform, i.e., health and education would be sacroscant and exempt from cuts, are becoming the very targets of this Government's restraint program. Mr. Speaker, the people of Green Bay are concerned. They continue to send me my petitions, and I table this one today and ask that it be referred to the department to which it relates. Thank you. Orders of the Day Mr. Baker: Motion 3, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: It is moved and seconded that I do now leave the Chair for the House to resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole on Supply Mr. Chairman: Order, please! Bill No. 66. The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl. Mr. Windsor: -, Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, last week e were debating the Supply Supplementary Bill and a number of very important questions, I think, were being addressed. Before I get into that, Mr.

Chairman, we have to consider this question of closure being introduced here again. This is two money bills now in the last couple of weeks on which closure has been used to gag the House of Assembly, gagging the House of Assembly, Mr. Chairman, and forcing through legislation, forcing this Parliament to give this Government more spending authority. . S . L22 November 13, 1990 Vol XLI No. 75 R22

. I' . Mr. Chairman, as I indicated in the debate on The Loan Bill in which closure was used last week, closure is not appropriate when asking for supply. It may be appropriate if some general legislation is being filibustered, which is the parliamentary term that is used, it is the business of Government, and the public good is being disrupted because of the Government's inability to get a piece of legislation through the House. And always after a very lengthy debate, and Government always has that right if they are prepared to take the political risks associated with using closure. I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, it is not a mechanism that should be taken lightly or that should be used lightly or without due consideration for the interruption of the democratic process that it really represents. This House, Mr. Chairman, has the responsibility and the right on behalf of every resident of this Province who elected the fifty-two representatives here, we have a responsibility to consider at length every piece of legislation that is brought forward by this Government. We have a responsibility to the people who elected us.

When closure is invoked on any issue, but particularly on an issue like this, it is a dereliction of responsibility on behalf of every member in this House of Assembly who allows that to happen. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Windsor: I beg your pardon? An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Windsor: There is no doubt the Government did not give notice just for the heck of it, Mr. Chairman. Closure will be coming through. And I will be speaking to the Bill. I have lots of time to speak to the Bill yet. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Windsor: Closure, Mr.

Chairman, is something that should not be taken lightly, particularly when you are talking about a money bill. This Government is asking for supply and that is why, Mr. Chairman, money bills are always considered to be so serious. If the Government loses a money bill it means automatic resignation of the Government - as opposed to any other piece of legislation - if the Government loses it they lose a piece of legislation, they will come back next year with the same piece of legislation or they will amend it and bring it back.

But closure or a vote against a money bill, the loss of a money bill is, in fact, a vote of nonconfidence in the Government and the Government has absolutely no alternative but to resign. That is how important a money bill is considered in the parliamentary process. I consider it absolutely completely inappropriate to use closure on a bill such as this, to force this Parliament in an undemocratic fashion to give additional supply to this Government. Now, Mr. Chairman, it is particularly more abhorrent when you consider the reasons for which the supply is being requested. Mr.

Chairman, we looked at the enterprise development operations, $2.6 million being requested basically for the Economic Recovery Team, $27 million being requested for Enterprise Development Loan Fund. As we L23 Movember 13, 1990 vol XLI No. 75 R23

pointed out last week, Mr. Chairman, there is no requirement at this point in time to repay those loans. We are eliminating an opportunity for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to invest in their own Province. Although it is not stated in this piece of legislation it should be abundantly clear to everyone that this means the death of the Newfoundland Development Savings Bonds, eliminating the opportunity for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to invest in their Province. The Minister said, 'oh yes, but we can borrow at more favorable rates.' Yes, of course, we can. And so could the Government of Canada, Mr.

Chairman. We are not competing with our ability to borrow in Japan or in Switzerland we are competing with Canada Savings Bonds. With Canada Savings Bonds, that is what we are competing with, and the rationale for having Canada Savings Bonds is two fold. It allows the Government of Canada to borrow in Canadian dollars to borrow at home and it gives Canadians an opportunity to invest in the development of their country. Now, Mr. Chairman, Newfoundland Development Savings Bonds are exactly the same thing at a provincial level.

It allows the Province to borrow here in Newfoundland and Labrador; it allows Newfoundlanders and Labradorians an opportunity to invest in their future and it keeps that money in Newfoundland. It keeps it here, which is a very real benefit, so we should not be comparing the cost of that money with the cost of equivalent money in Switzerland or France. We should consider whether Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are going to buy Canada Savings Bonds or Newfoundland Savings Bonds. I think it is one quarter per cent more than Canada Savings Bonds we are paying, maybe it is one half, I am not sure.

I can be corrected on that. Does the Minister know the difference in the rate? Could we wake up the Minister? The Minister does not want to be awakened. It is about one quarter to a half per cent, and I would submit, Mr. Chairman, that that is the real cost of keeping that money in Newfoundland and Labrador, and that the benefits far outweigh that one quarter or one half per cent, whatever the case may be. It was a good program, it was well received, and the fact that most of the investment comes from the urban regions, Mr. Chairman, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Is the Minister suggesting for one moment that Newfoundlanders who happen to live in St. John's, or other urban centers, should be denied the right? That because they are the ones who primarily take advantage of this opportunity, that that in any way suggests the program should be eliminated? I would suggest not, Mr. Chairman. It just happens that those people are the ones, perhaps, that were most aware. Perhaps, : the Minister needs to do a better awareness program to allow Newfoundlanders all across this Province, in rural Newfoundland, to take advantage.

I am told that there are in fact more actual investments from rural Newfoundland but in smaller amounts, and that the larger amounts are from urban centers. Does that simply mean that the more affluent are residing in urban centers and therefore they have more money to invest in this manner? That is hardly a reason, Mr. Chairman, to eliminate that program, but certainly the . is 0- C L24 November 13, 1990 vol XLI No. 75 R24

. fl . rationale of eliminating the program and causing Government, at a time when money is so tight, to have to repay the $11 million now outstanding, and therefore having to give NLDC, or Enterprise Newfoundland, or whatever it is going to be called, it really does not make any difference what it is called because it is the same organization with the same people, doing the same job. Mr. Hogan: A rose by any other name. Mr. Windsor: A rose by any other name. The hon. Member for Placentia is quite right, a rose by any other name, and that is the point we are making with this ridiculous statement.

We heard this afternoon that the Economic Recovery Commission somehow had something to do with funding Arctic Fisheries. What foolishness. It was something that would have taken place anyway with Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. The Economic Recovery Commission had nothing to do with it, absolutely nothing to do with it. It is just utter nonsense, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: Your time is up Mr. Windsor: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will have another opportunity later. Mr. Chairman: The hon. the Member for Eagle River. Mr.

Dumaresgue: I just want to take a few minutes to respond to some of the remarks that have been made by the Opposition in respect to the announcement today of the Shrimp Peeling Plant in the Labrador Straits. Just recently, when the Member for Mount Pearl, talked about the role of the Economic Recovery Commission, I want to touch on that as well, Mr. Chairman, and to conclude by thanking a number of people for their initiative. Mr.

Chairman, the employment projections that the fisheries critic talked about in his response to the statement, he was wondering how many jobs were in this area before this initiative today. I would like to tell the hon. Member there were zero jobs there from this industry. I would like to let hon. members know that what we are talking about here is a $100 million offshore shrimp industry off the Coast of Labrador and we did not receive, up until today, not one job in the secondary processing of this $100 million shrimp industry.

All the secondary processing, up to this point, was done in Europe, in Denmark, and in the Faroe Islands, so what we see here today is a move by this Government, certainly in conjunction with the Federal Government and the private enterprises involved, what we see here is a concrete example of how diversification can take place in our fishery. The diversification of meaningful employment can take place in our fishery and in all places of the Province, including the remote places of Labrador, and what we are seeing here is a diversification into a new species, Mr.

Speaker, a new species of the fishery that for too long has been gone underexploited in terms of our employment possibilities in this particular industry. And I hope that over the next few months we will .see the operation on the Southside go into force again as a result of initiatives that this Government is taking, and we will see the further benefit of the offshore shrimp industry coming L25 November 13, 1990 Vol XLI No. 75 R25

here to the ProvInce of Newfoundland and Labrador with the creation and maintaining of a couple of hundred jobs on the southside of St. John's. Mr. Speaker, I would like to also let hon. members know what the significance of this particular announcement was today, because it is extremely historic in my view, that hon. members should know that for the first time ever, for the first time ever from L'Anse-au-Clair to Nain, we now have a pro) ect in place where people can look at up to ten months work each year for the sixty to seventy full-time people, ten months work. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr.

Dumaresgue: You know this is something that nobody ever thought was possible on the Coast of Labrador because we are isolated, because we have the ice factor down there that nobody else does on the Island, but, Mr. Speaker, this is an industry of which we can take advantage because shrimp can be stored for fairly long periods of time and it can be used as you process, as you have the capability of processing it, so it is almost like finding a small mine that would .- something similar to what used to be I guess, in Daniel's Harbour, it is the kind of thing that needs to be done.

I do not mean to make that known in light of the fact that it is not there anymore, I hope that it will be re-activated or certainly those jobs will go back to the hon. Member's district in one fashion or another, but this is what it means to the Labrador Straits. In the last three years in particular, we have seen the Gulf cod fishery decline, as the Minister noted, to unacceptable levels. We have seen a total failure in that particular fishery in the Labrador Straits and therefore to have this particular initiative today, we are going to see a stable economic environment from which businesses can operate.

They will know that there is this degree of economic activity taking place for eight to ten months of every year and I think that will give a lot of comfort to that business community and certainly not to the least of which is to the sixty or seventy successful people who will be working there to make this industry a very viable one indeed. Mr. Speaker, I would like to also note the participation of the Economic Recovery Team and particularly, Mr.

Wayne Humphries, who has been known to the Coast of Labrador for a number of years and with whom I worked closely over the last number of months to put the details of this proposal together. And of course, Miss Susan Sherk, who is also on th Economic Recovery Team and looks after a number of affairs in Labrador. But Mr.

Speaker, their participation has been invaluable to the success of this venture, because they have shown their commitment to Labrador, and I might also note the commitment to this type of activity, the type of activity which produces the sixty - seventy jobs which are so important to us, a small community like the Labrador Straits. So I am very appreciative of the role they have played, and I know hon. Members will see more examples of the kinds of things this . . L26 November 13, 1990 Vol XLI No. 75 R26

. [TJ Commission is doing and working diligently at, that in the long term, Mr. Chairman, when we start tying these things together, good, meaningful, solid employment is what this Economic Recovery team is producing. And I look forward to more of their particular initiatives and, of course, I look forward to more of those things happening in Eagle River. I know we will always have a competitive situation here for these kinds of dollars, but we hope to get our share. I guess, Mr.

Chairman, to conclude, .1 would like to congratulate this Government and the Minister of Development and the Minister of Fisheries in particular. These two Ministers have worked diligently and certainly explored all possibilities to make sure this project was a reality. Mr. Chairman, I know times are tough and that money is tight. As I mentioned in this House on a number of occasions before, often when things are bad usually the first places you feel it are in the more remote places of this Province, and certainly Labrador would be in that category.

We feel it the quickest, it usually lasts the longest, and we are the last one to get it put back into our economy. So, Mr. Chairman, I would like to congratulate these two Ministers and the Government today for seeing that justice and fairness is given to the coast of Labrador, even in these tough financial times. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: The hon. the Member for Green Bay. Mr. Hewlett: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, am pleased for the hon. Member's constituents on the coast of Labrador.

It is rather amazing that the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation has been in existence for many, many years now and no doubt over those many years has assisted many many enterprises get off the ground. But somehow now, every time it does its routine normal business, its mandated business, it is a matter to send an ERC flag up the flagpole. Mr. Chairman, I think they protest a little too much. 1, too, Mr. Chairman, must protest closure, to be on the record, with regard to this particular bill. This Government has plenty of opportunities to bring other items forward on their legislative agenda.

As we did during the Hibernia legislation., we co-operated and the thing went through with minimal debate. Therefore, I can only assume, as I indicated to my colleague from Bonavista South on the panel there the other week, closure on general money bills is to keep us from exposing the weaknesses of this Government to the public at large. Now, Mr. Chairman, on the weekend I had a Member's clinic and a couple of items caine up that 1 undertook to my constituents I would raise on the floor of this Assembly. One of them had to do with the condition of the highways in the area and the lack of snow clearing.

I understand that morale in the Department of Highways staff is at, an all-time low. We have a scenario where foremen are earning far less than the people they supervise. Mr. Chairman, the Government has a general rule of thumb that says a supervisor will earn 5 per cent more at least than the people he or she supervises, Unfortunately, No. 75 R27 L27 November 13, 1990 vol XLI

the new snow clearing policy of this Government got us into a situation where foremen are going to earn several thousand dollars, probably, in a given year less than the people they supervise. That does nothing for the morale of the foremen and, I would suggest, does nothing for the overall efficiency of the snow clearing activities of his Department. I also had a number of truckers drop in to see me, Mr. Chairman, and they were dejected as to the current state of their industry and their current economic prospects. One of the truckers I wrote the hon. Minister of Transportation about just a few days ago.

On a brand new bridge on the Trans-Canada, between Deer Lake and Howley I believe it is, there is an extremely rough surface even though the bridge is brand new. A fully loaded tractor-trailer got such a bang that its drive shaft destroyed its air-brake system. The trucker was lucky that he did not end up bottom up in the ditch. He did manage to cripple his truck over to the side of the road, he put out the appropriate flares to mark the disabled vehicle, and, Mr.

Chairman, when he did return with help to get his truck fixed, he found his flares had been stolen and he had a ticket on his windshield for having no flares out. That particular trucker thought that was a typical example of the way he and the other people in his industry feel they are being squeezed. They are in tight economic times, their costs are rising, the price of fuel is rising, the cost of parts is rising.

At the same time, the Department of Transportation is more stringently enforcing the rules of the road and the truckers who came in to see me basically indicated they feel they are getting squeezed in the situation between the cruel economic realities of the day and the more stringent enforcement of rules by the Department of Transportation. A couple of complaints they had specifically, Mr. Chairman, and I wish the Minister of Transportation might address this. When it comes to wood trucks, Mr.

Chairman, the load on a wood truck be judged, measured and enforced by the cord rather than by weight, as is, often the case now. One trucker indicated he was pulled over for a size check as to the configuration of his load in the nighttime. He decided to step out of his cab to see what the officials of the Minister's Department were doing in checking the load. He was told he was not allowed to watch his load being measured, Mr. Chairman, because it was nighttime, and if you were run over by a passing vehicle it would be the Department's responsibility.

So even though his load was being checked he, as a citizen of this country, was not allowed to watch the officials checking the load. So, Mr. Chairman, here we have a situation where we have increasing truck traffic on our road. Our railway is gone. Since this administration came to power, Mr. Chairman, three new bridges have been installed--on the Trans-Canada between Deer Lake and Springdale, and the surface of those bridges is extremely rough at the expansion joints; you get quite a thumping going over and you can imagine the jolt to a large tractor-trailer fully loaded.

And, as I said, the trucker who . . 11 L28 . November 13, 1990 Vol XLI Mo. 75 R28

r I' . . dropped in to see me, along with a couple of his friends, nearly ended up in the ditch as a result of an extremely rough bridge surface. So I told these individuals, Mr. Chairman, I would bring their concerns to the floor of the Assembly. As I indicated, I have written the Minister with regard to the damage done to the truck of one particular individual. Although I suppose he is not allowed to speak in this debate because of closure, I would invite the minister to address these issues. Because they are of real concern to people who are trying to earn a living on the road.

They feel they have no friends in the world, that they have an image problem, that it is the old Smokey and the Bandit routine. The authorities that be think they are a menace to the road. The economic realities are getting their bankers on their backs, their costs are rising, they are getting caught in the squeeze, they have tremendous competition from large mainland trucking firms, many of whom may be subsidized in their home jurisdiction.

We have no enforcement of gasoline regulations at the entry port in Port aux Basques at the moment, therefore, trucks are coming fully loaded with cheaper gasoline from the United States and mainland Provinces. This is providing unfair competition to the individuals who make their living on our highways. So, Mr. Chairman, I indicated I would bring their concerns before this Assembly and I would certainly hope that the hon. Minister of Transportation would address those concerns. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman: The hon. Minister of Social Services. Mr. Efford: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

A couple of points I want to address. I have listened for some time now to Members opposite talking and complaining about their freedom and their rights in the House of Assembly, and especially against the President of Treasury Board for bringing in closure on this particular bill. I think if every Member in the House of Assembly, on both sides, took a look at the information coming out of the thirty minutes provided every day in Question Period, I wonder why we allow any debating time in the House of Assembly at all.

Because Question Period today, I think, was about the weakest time I have ever seen any Question Period in my experience in the House of Assembly, which has not been too long. Mr. Power: Since you •went over there, you mean. Mr. Efford: No no. In my experience in the House of Assembly. There is no comparison at all to when we were on the Opposition, because at least there was some life in Question Period. But it got to the point today where there was absolutely no structure to Question Period at all. You are grasping at straws in trying to get questions.

I mean, if you need information, need questions, why do you not take the newspapers? You do not have to do any research in your own office, you do not have to hire any people up there to do research, take the newspapers. You would get enough information L29 November 13, 1990 Vol XLI No. 75 R29

out in Question Period if you just followed the news media trend. So do not stand up in this House of Assembly calling names on the Government because they are bringing in closure. It is a waste of time, because there is nothing said on the opposite side of the House anyhow. There is no information getting out there. The only information getting out there is what Government Members - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) Mr. Efford: That is right - is what Government Members and Ministers bring out to the general public.

So for the Member for Green Bay to stand up here and say it is a crime or it is shocking that we bring in closure on a particular bill, I think we are doing the public a favour. We are certainly doing the taxpayers of the Province a favour by bringing in closure and lessening your time in the House of Assembly, and lessening the cost to the taxpayers. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) Mr. Efford: Severance. Oh, Mr Severance. The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. I am not too familiar with what is happening around the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I cannot swear, because I can't be everywhere nor should I be, on what is happening on the highways. But I can honestly say - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) Mr. Efford: I can honestly say what is happening on the highways around Conception Bay. I left home, Port de Grave, this morning at 5:30. That is pretty early to leave a community and expect the snow to be cleared away. It snowed quite heavily last night on the Avalon Peninsula, especially out home, but I left home 5:30 this morning and from Port de Grave to St. John's the roads were completely ploughed and salted.

In fact, I met at least three to four pieces of equipment; that is only a sixty mile drive, and that was 5:30 or 5:45 this morning on the highway coming in from Conception Bay. Ms Verge: It stopped snowing at ten o'clock last night. Mr. Efford: But the roads were cleared and salted then, so it had to be done last night. It could not be done while there was a snowfall blistering down, it had to be done after the snow stopped. So what is your point? When should they have done it, before the snow fell? An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Efford: In other words, they should have done it before the snow fell.

Now, for goodness sake, what a mentality. Send the ploughs out before the snow comes down. Boy! Make no wonder we are $5.4 billion in debt, with a mentality like that. That certainly explains the administration. Probably in some parts of the Province it may be cleared a bit slower. Probably it is. But you cannot dictate the weather: when the snow is going to fall, when it is going to stop. And it is pointless to throw away hundreds of thousands of tons of salt unless there is something on the ground to put it on.

And I am not one to stand up, because I am as nervous driving on the road as anybody in this Province, but I . U . L30 November 13,1990 vol XLI No. 75 R30

. C' can assure this hon. House of Assembly that at 5:30 this morning, when I drove through Bay Roberts, Roaches Line, the Trans-Canada, right to Confederation Building, everything was salted, cleaned and ploughed. Now, when they did it. They may have had some magical moment when they did not allow the snow to fall on those areas which I drove on, but I can assure you there was nothing on the highway. Ms Verge: (Inaudible). Mr.

Efford: So I think the hon. member should take a lesson from the former Opposition who takes great pleasure in looking across the House and seeing the change-around, and takes delight in seeing everybody confused and frustrated over there. Take a lesson. If you are going to ask some questions in the House of Assembly •to ministers on this side, put some thought, some commons sense into it and get something of reality to bring in, that will at least keep us awake.

Probably we should have a mock House of Assembly one of these days where myself and the hon. the Minister of Development will go back over for a day or two and show you how it is done. But please put some energy into it and get something going for once so we can get rid of the boredom of having nothing to do but just sitting in the Chair, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley. Mr. Woodford: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, I cannot wait for Hansard to come out.

I have to try to get that tonight so I can send it out to the people around the Deer Lake, Rocky Harbour, Daniel's Harbour and Hawkes Bay area. I have to get that one. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Woodford: Yes sure. I can give them that, too. I could give them lots of that, too. You stopped the chance of that happening out there, and nothing has happened since. But for the Minister of Social Services to get up today and talk about Question Period. Now, Mr. Chairman, I will give you some facts on Question Period today and the two questions I asked in particular.

I am not saying there was anything glamorous about them. I never shouted and bawled and squealed. But I do get calls from my constituents. I do talk to my constituents. But hearing some members opposite, you would swear they never get a phone call, let alone talk to them. In talking to some of the constituents in the area the weekend, I can assure you, Mr. Chairman, that some people better get in their district and get in them fast, I can assure you. But one of the questions - Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Woodford: - asked today, Mr.

Chairman, was concerning the professional development program that was supposed to be held concerning child abuse. It is going to be held in the Member for St. Barbe's District on November 20, in Rocky Harbour. That is the workshop on child sexual abuse that I mentioned today. Ms Verge: The one that the Premier insinuated (inaudible). L31 Movember 13, 1990 Vol XLI Mo. 75 R31

Mr. Woodford: Yes, I probably would have gotten a better answer, but then again when asking the question, the feeling coming from the other side is that there was nothing to it. Well, I can assure members opposite, and the Member for Carbonear who snickered and hollered when I was talking about substitute teachers, I can tell him right now that what I said today was factual. There were 548 days knocked off the Deer Lake-St. Barbe School Board last year retroactively and without any warning, nothing, for February and March there was 548 days.

Now, if they have 1,322 days left for the rest of the year for sick leave alone, compared with last year that is a twenty-six per cent cut. Now, the Minister the other day stood in his place and said that every teacher in the Province only has to give up one day. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) Mr. Woodford: t4ell, that is their own fault. I mean all he had to do was ask. When they got sick they certainly knew what they could do and what they could do with regards to compassionate leave or anything else. But right now the school boards are hurting.

They have to cancel all professional development days, all workshops, and all seminars. The only way a substitute teacher is gotten now for the classroom, Mr. Chairman, is to take the place of a teacher who is sick, period. And it is sad to think that a workshop ot something like this has to happen and be put off and at the same time they have nobody. And they are sort of caught because I think it is

article twenty-nine - correct me if I am wrong- of the collective agreement says that the school board has to make a special attempt to have a substitute in the classroom. Now how do they do it? They do it, Mr. Chairman, because they are told if they have no substitute days left, to take it out of operating. That is also a fact. Take it out of operating. Now, the school boards today - I can only speak for the one in my area - are strapped for cash in any case. They have not got one cent to spend on operating because they have to try to keep it for thchool busing and heat and so on.

Another example of what has been happening with regards to the school boards in that area, Mr. Chairman, is that 126 students are gone out of that system this year. The enrollment is down by 126 students. Now, as we know the Government pays,I think it is $135 or $145 on a per capita basis for each student in each school board. Now, 126 students out of that particular school board means that they have to come up with extra funding from someplace, school tax authorities or from somewhere to try and keep the system running.

Regardless of how many students are gone out of the system the same schools are in place; they have to pay the same fuel bill; the light bills are still there; everything is the same. And the members in rural areas of the Province can certainly sympathize with what I am saying and I do not think they can argue about it because what is happening is that with the enrollment going down they are leaving and going to the urban centers where there is probably a better chance of picking up a job and the schools in the rural areas of this Province are suffering, and suffering badly.

So, you take that out of that system alone and you are talking about quite a few . . . L32 November 13, 1990 Vol XLI No. 75 R32

. [IJ V . dollars, Mr. Chairman, and at the same time then come back and ask the school boards to come up with extra money for substitute teachers and take it out of operating. Mow, if someone can tell me where they can get it - I mean those are facts. This is not something hypothetical, this is something that is happening today. This is not something that is going to be looked at in the next budget, this is happening today, right today, and to have a seminar such as this to be jeopardized for the sake of no substitute days in the system, to me, is wrong.

Now, the Premier said today that he would probably take a look at it if he knew that was happening, and if they could not attend those workshops, he would take it upon himself to order then. The understanding I got was that he was going to order them to attend the workshops and to make sure that substitutes were put in, but they have no days left. They have absolutely nothing left, only the bare necessities for sick leave. An Hon. Member: That is not a fact. Mr. Woodford: It is true. An Hon. Member: They have substitute days left after - Mr. Woodford: Sure, they have 1322 days left.

I am not misleading the House, Mr. Chairman. This is a fact, and if you want to come out and talk to my school board, and talk to the teachers in my area you come out and do it. An Hon. Member: Let them use it Mr. Woodford: Let them use it for what? What do they use for sick leave? What do they do then? Where do they get them? Do they go to the prisons and take them out to teach the kids? An Hon. Member: Ask your wife how many sick days she had left last year? Mr. Woodford: Not one. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) what do they do with them then? What do they do with the sick leave then they got built up? Mr.

Woodford: Never mind what the teacher got built up. Do not go putting it on the teacher. I gave you what is left, 1322 days left for seven months. An Hon. Member: What does the board do with them? Mr. Woodford: I can understand now why members opposite laugh and snicker at it, because they do not understand it, and this is a gentleman who has been in the system for years. From September to March there was seven months, five months now, but from September to March there was 1376 days left. I do not know how many are gone now, I only know the figure as of September.

Now, based on last year that is a 26 per cent cut, and you might say 251 days out of that system for one year. That is one day per teacher but based on last year's total allocation for substitute days it comes to almost 27 per cent, and what killed them this year was the fact that they made it retroactive to February and they lost 548 days, because that was not put in. They put it in May or June, or whatever, and that was taken off last year. An Hon. Member: What did they do, L33 November 13, 1990 Vol XLI No. 75 R33

load it up to take advantage of it? Mr. Woodford: They did not load it up to take advantage of it. The Member seems to have the answers for everything. They muzzled the Member with regards to Bill 53, but I can assure you the Member is going to have to speak a lot to try and muzzle me on this side, I can guarantee you that. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Woodford: If the Member still wants to keep putting his foot in his mouth keep talking because the more you talk the less campaigning I have to do. Mr. Walsh: Did they use too many early? going on on the other side it is hard to gain a bit of composure.

It is quite a job for me. I will gladly sit down if the hon. Member for Carbonear wishes to rise. Tell the teachers what you just said, repeat what you just said. I am waiting for the hon. Member. They are going to take away the paid holiday? You say they do not deserve it, the teachers out there do not deserve that one day because they have a hundred years anniversary? An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Parsons: You said that. The hon. Member for Carbonear said it. Mr. Chairman: Order, please! Order, please! . Mr.

Woodford: No, they did not use too many early, they used the regular days out of the system but the only thing about it was they were not put in, and the same thing would happen this year but they have been told this year that there would be no carry-over. What they got, they got, there would be no carry-over into the next year, so this is what is catching them this year. The 251 days, for instance, in the Deer Lake - St. Barbe school board would probably be livable. They would probably be able to live with that if they could take it from fiscal to fiscal. Mr.

Parsons: I am only repeating what the hon. the Member for Carbonear mumbled across the House. I do not know if Hansard picked it up or not, but now, Hansard does have it, that the hon. the Member for Carbonear said they should take it back from them. An Hon. Member: So they should. Mr. Tobin: 'And you can quote me on it,' he said. Mr. Parsons: Yes, and for the record, he said, 'And you can quote me on it.' Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The hon. Member's time has elapsed Mr. Chairman: The hon. the Member for St. John's East Extern. Mr. Parsons: Thank you, very much, Mr. Chairman. With all the gibberish that is Mr.

Chairman, I was not in the House today for Ministerial Statements and I must say, that I heard it on the radio though coming out, that there were some monies provided through the Economic Recovery Commission, through the commission of Government, to provide some financing in Labrador and I am glad to see that finally they have spent some money, and they told S L34 November 13, 1990 vol XLI No. 75 R34

• the people about it because there set the pace, to set the pace for are a lot of dollars out there employment and he said that they that presumably they have spent were in the process then of but no one knows where it is. delivering step programs. . Mr. Tobin: Yes, where did it go? Mr. Parsons: No one knows where it is. I have asked the Minister of Finance, where did the money go, out of the nine hundred and sixty-seven millions of dollars that he was talking about last year in March, 967, thirty-four of which were in and out, because it was an over payment to the Federal Government.

I have asked him, and every member over here on this side, has asked over and over and over, where did the money go? You know what, you know what, the Minister does not know. We all watch Jeopardy every now and then, boy would he be some actor on Jeopardy. Where did the money go? I do not know. Is it just overspent? .1 do not know. Did you collect less taxes than you anticipated? I do not know. There he is, he cannot tell you, he is a-real stylist, he should be performing, he is getting paid for it. We should elect him to go up there and answer some of those real basic questions as far as finances are concerned.

He had $967 million, he did not own $34 million of it and now he comes to the House and asks for more money, asks for more money from this hon. House, to allow this Government to spend more money, for what? Well, as I was finishing up the other day, Mr. Chairman, I mentioned the fact that I saw Dr.

House being interviewed on one of the television stations and he said, you know, that this Economic Recovery Commission, was there to So boy, you know, I had to sit up and listen and look and say, well, here it comes, this is going to be the announcement and the announcement was, that the recovery commission had devised a plan that they were going to manufacture toilet paper, paper cups and tongue depressors. Well, I am old enough, Mr. Chairman, to remember the rubber factory, the battery factory, and I do not know how many more factories.

All I can get from the Minister of Social Services over there, is his reminding me and all my hon. colleagues about cucumbers. Well, if I were to say tomorrow that I was an investing man and were to look at the proposition as far as cucumbers are concerned and then put on the other side, toilet paper, paper cups and tongue depressors, then I would certainly have to take the shot at the cucumber. Mr. Tobin: Recycled toilet paper, that is what he did, recycled toilet paper. Mr. Parsons: Recycled toilet paper. No, even the Minister of Environment has not started that yet. An Hon.

Member: He has to get the money to (inaudible). Mr. Parsons: Tongue depressors. Now, there are less than 600,000 of us Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, less than 600,000 of us. How many tongue depressors can we sell throughout the Province of Newfoundland and L35 November 13, 1990 vol XLI No. 75 R35

Labrador, are we going to export our tongue depressors, are we going to export them, Mr. Chairman? Now the paper cups. The paper cups- An Hon. Member: I wish we could get something to depress your tongue. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! This is heavy (inaudible). Mr. Parsons: A vicious personal attack. I will excuse the hon. Member. Mr. Matthews: Ray Guy said he figured he could get about 25,000 tongue depressors out of one fir tree. So how many toothpicks would he get out of it? Mr. Parsons: Yes, there is a mathematically question to be answered here.

Ray Guy said that out of one fir tree you could get 25,000 tongue depressors. Now how many toothpicks can you get out of that one fir tree? Mr. Matthews: A lot more. Mr. Parsons: That is a question for Dr. House. Mr. Matthews: That is right Mr. Parsons: It has to be a question for Dr. House. He is the only one who is coming up with the answers to our problem. paper cups bit. You know, how many paper cups can we use in Newfoundland and Labrador? Now this is a big development issue. And toilet paper: Six hundred thousand people, how many rolls of toilet paper? Are we going to export the toilet paper?

He is going to recycle the paper to make this toilet paper. The hon. Minister of Environment and Lands is coming in now, I an sure he had something to do with the Economy Recovery Commission as it pertains to toilet paper. I do not know if he is going to recycle the paper too for these paper cups. Now how many paper cups can we use in Newfoundland and Labrador? That is the main question here. Are we going to export toilet paper? Now the cost of the product itself, then to export it, because naturally we are living on an island, everything has to be exported either by air or across the Gulf - and imported.

Now we have to import the raw material to make the toilet paper. Or if the Minister of Environment and Lands perhaps intends to recycle the paper to make the toilet paper that will make it that much easier on the Economy Recovery Commission. This is what Dr. House said, this is what they. are looking at now, manufacturing toilet paper, paper cups, and tongue depressors. An Hon. Member: What is wrong with that? Mr. Matthews: They can commission a study for that. Mr. Parsons: Yes, perhaps a commission. Yes, perhaps another study could be held here. An Hon. Member: Paper cups. Mr. Parsons: Now let us go to the Mr.

Parsons: There is nothing wrong with it. I am only asking questions about it. How much is it going to cost to make the tongue depressors? How much are we going to be able to use here in Newfoundland? And how much of this product are we going to export? . L36 November 13, 1990 vol XLI No. 75 R36

. . . Mr. Efford: (Inaudible). An Hon. Member: We are going to spend one gag for the Minister of Social Services. Mr. Parsons: Yes, I was reminded by my hon. colleague over here that we need one gag for the Minister of Social Services. An Hon. Member: One gag. Mr. Parsons: Only one. Thousand of tongue depressors. But let us go back to a more serious aspect of this, in Bill 66, the Economic Recovery Commission needs $705,800 over and above the millions that they spent, because the Minister of Finance does not know where the money is gone. There is $80 million out there that is unanswered. There is no answer to it.

There is no answer where the money went. Mr. Efford: (Inaudible). Mr. Parsons: The Minister of Social Services puts up - Mr. Efford: That is where the money went. Mr. Parsons: That is the only defence that the hon. Minister of Social Services has, is the cucumber plant. At least there were 200 or 300 people working there. Mr. Tobin: What a mess you got the Department of Social Services in? What a mess? Mr. Parsons: That is the only line of attack that the hon. Minister had. I will take the Minister up on it and say look, there was a lot of people employed out there. At least they tried.

What has the Economy Recovery Commission done? Have they tried anything? Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The hon. Member's time is up. Some Hon. Members: By leave! Mr. Parsons: Ah, I only. just got started. Some Hon. Members: By leave! Mr. Chairman: The hon. Member for Fogo. Mr. Winsor: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was sitting down listening to the Member for Carbonear and I know my eyesight is failing because I have to wear glasses. I am sure of that, and I am absolutely certain driving last night coming in over the road. In fact, I was half convinced I might have been going blind.

But the Minister of Social Services spent some time addressing the road conditions. And I could spend a little time addressing the road conditions too, because I had the unfortunate experience to drive on them late this morning or early this morning in the range of one o'clock or so. I can tell the Member for Port de Grave that while the road conditions might have been cleared this morning when he came in over the highway, they certainly were not in that condition when I came in last night. And it was not snowing, either. Some Hon. Members: (Inaudible). Mr.

Winsor: That was right through the middle of Roaches L37 November 13, 1990 Vol XLI No. 75 R37

Line. Is that possibly - An Hon. Member: That's Liberal Mr. Winsor: That is Liberal, is it? Well that is where the road conditions were at an all-time worst. From Whitbourne in, that is where they - Mr. Efford: (Inaudible) another twenty years, by the way. Mr. Winsor: From Whitbourne in is where the road conditions were worst. Mr. Parsons: It is coming to an end now. It is coming to a close. Some Hon. Members: (Inaudible). Mr. Winsor: Mr. Speaker, if could be permitted to go on. Mr. Tobin: Roger, want a ride home? Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Winsor: If I could be permitted to continue.

Road conditions in the Province have been a subject, and the Minister of Social Services can slough it off as much ashe wants to. There are lots of concerns and complaints out there about the conditions of the road for the past number of days, and I certainly had some concerns last night driving in. Maybe it was a little bit too late in the evening but, as a matter of fact, I had some people from the Department of Highways who came to talk to me last night quite concerned about the status of the division in their area and the amount of work they are getting on.

And it is not good enough for the Minister of Social Services to get up and come to the defence of the Minister of Transportation who, in his usual response, answered all the questions with the word no. I also thought I heard the Member from Carbonear say something about substitute teachers; he kept interfering when my friend from Humber Valley was speaking on substitute teacher days, and he kept insisting that teachers were allowed to have substitute days for in-service.

Now I can tell the Member from Carbonear that school boards in this Province and in Exploits, where the Parliamentary Assistant to the Premier is from, that that school board has told their teachers in no uncertain tens that there are to be no in-service days used up until the end of Christmas. Now the Member from Carbonear can tell - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Winsor: Who told them? School boards told them. They told them that in-service up until Christmas is cancelled for all teachers. An Hon. Member: How do you know that? Mr. Winsor: They called me and told me. Good buddies of mine who teach out there.

I used to teach with them. As a matter of fact, I can also, if the Member from Placentia is interested, quote from a letter. An Hon. Member: Careful now. Table it. Mr. Winsor: No, I do not have to table it. Only a Minister has to table it. I know this person in my own work for the Notre Dame Integrated School Board. He goes . . . L38 November 13, 1990 Vol XLI Mo. 75 R38

. on to say in this letter that substitute teacher cutbacks - it is required that teachers no longer take

part in his activity. And for the benefit of the Member from Carbonear, because I do not think he was really addressing the matter when he spoke, substitute teacher leave is comprised of five or six different categories. One is down for in-service, another one could be for legitimate sick leave, people off sick. It could be compassionate leave. In the case of a death of a member of a family there is a little formula, three days for some occasions, and one day on another occasion. It can be for illness in the family, you have to take a son or a daughter to surgery and it is necessary that you accompany them.

You can have it to work for different curriculum committees throughout the Province. The Department of Education is an ongoing process in education where they are developing new curriculum so they take teachers out of the school system for the day, send them off to a meeting, sometimes two, three or four days, and they try to develop new curriculum for the following year. In addition to that there is special paid leave for teachers, at the discretion of the Minister and in some cases the superintendent, depending on the amount of days, for things like - Mr. Baker: (Inaudible). Mr.

Winsor: Oh, the Member for Gander says they are supposed to be in the classroom teaching. Well, sometimes the Member when he was a town councillor in Gander, if I recall some years ago, might have had occasion to come to St. John's to have a delegation - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Winsor: No. Well, let me put it this way. I am sure the Vice-Chairman of the Economic Recovery Commission for central Newfoundland, whatever that position is, he spent enough days out of the classroom attending meetings. Mr. A. Snow: Did he spend (inaudible) many? Mr. Winsor: Hundreds.

If it is too many, then I do not know how many it was for that member. That is the fellow who has the new car. He spent hundreds of days. So all of these days are combined, and the Minister of Education looked at his total number of substitute days he had last year, and said, okay, you had 82,000 days in total, we are going to cut one day off each for a total of about 12,000 days. Now, the Minister knows that in that number of days, quite a number of these days are set. If someone is sick, what are you going to do take the days away? You cannot do that.

If someone's brother or sister dies, are you going to deny them this leave? Mo, you cannot do that because that is in the collective agreement. So the only place he could get any days was in in--service. The collective agreement says that a teacher is entitled to up to five days. It does not say you have to give it, but it says up to five. And while the Minister is technically correct in saying it comes from an old range, in reality the only place these days can come from is from in-service days. Now, the Minister throws about, and bandies about - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible).

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Mr. Winsor: I will deal with the President of Treasury Board's assertion in a second. The Minister throws about this one day per person that is taken from each teacher. That is fine, except for the fact that many teachers do not have five days in-service. Many teachers only take one or two days in-service. For the teacher who does not have any in-service, where can you take that day from? Take two from someone who has eight, or two from someone who has five? Perhaps there is a case where there are four teachers who do not have in-service.

I taught on a staff of thirty and quite often in certain areas there would be no in-service for that year. Mr. Baker: Shame! Mr. tJinsor: Shame. What hypocrisy to say shame. What hypocrisy for the President of Treasury Board to get up and say shame, when here he is administering a sum of money that has all but cut out in-service. Shame he said. When I said the teachers did not get in-service, he said shame. Now, how can the Minister square that with what it going on? Because the President of Treasury Board knows there were many years when I had eight days, and there were some years I had two. An Hon.

Member: But some years you had eight. Mr. Winsor: Yes, and it was special leave. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) curling bonspiel (inaudible). Mr. Winsor: I did not use any for the curling bonspiel, no. I am invited to one out in Gander next weekend. I am sure the President of Treasury -Board didn't get invited to the hospital curling bonspiel out in Gander, because he has been so miserable, so niggardly in his Budget. Mr. Baker: That is not this weekend. Mr. Winsor: The 23rd. An Hon. Member: He is going to attend. Mr. Woodford: He is going to attend? Well, he could be going down on a stone.

I am sure there are enough people out there mad enough at the President of Treasury Board now that when he gets to release the stone, there is going to be someone behind to give him a push and send him down the ice on that stone. Mr. Baker: I am on your team. Mr. Winsor: You are on my team? Oh, what serious trouble we have here. So what we have happening in education is we have a system that has been in place for years. If there is any chance for the economy recovers, it lies in the education system. As the Premier says, it is perhaps a seven, eight, or ten year job for the economy to recover.

I suggest that for education in this Province - Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West. Mr. -Tobin: I want to say a few, words in this debate. An Hon. Member: Say something sensible now. 'I . El L40 November 13, 1990 Vol XLI No. 75 R40

. . Mr. Tobin: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I will say something sensible when I look at the social assistance caseload. If the Minister of Social Services wants me to say something sensible, when I look at the social assistance caseload and see that it has increased by 15,000 - 15,000 more people on social assistance in 1990 than in 1989. Now that will tell you what the Economic - I do not blame that on the Minister of Social Services either, by the way. There is not much he can do about it except provide assistance to the people who need it.

But there is an example of why the Economic Recovery Commission should be abolished. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Tobin: There is the reason right there why Doug House and his troop should get the flick. Mr. Chairman, there it is right there, 15,000 more people on social assistance in 1989-90 than in 1988-89. If that is not justification for giving the Economic Recovery Commission the flick, then what is? What do they have to do in order to get the flick? Mr. Efford: Where did you get the 15,000? Mr. Tobin: Two hundred and forty-nine thousand versus two hundred and thirty-five thousand.

That is what is going on. Mr. Matthews: Total cases. Mr. Tobin: Total caseloads in this Province. The Minister of Social Services cannot be blamed for that, he has to provide a service to the people who need it. But the Government he is a part of has to accept full responsibility, Mr. Chairman, for the lack of economic direction or policy in this Province. Well, you can take it further than that. We are debating a bill to give Doug House, Dr. Valdmanis and a bunch of them, the tribe - the Valdmanis of the Smaliwood era is now the House of the Wells era, Mr. Chairman. Do not ever lose sight of that. Some Hon.

Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Tobin: smallwood had Valdmanis, and now we have another doctor, and the only man who had half enough courage to say anything was the Member for Pleasantville. The only one over there who had enough courage to say anything was the Member for Pleasantville. But when he found out that he had to make decision and vote, what did he do? An Hon. Member: He left the House, did he? Mr. Tobin: He looked at the Premier, and he got a ride on the chartered plane to Ottawa as a result. That is what happened.

He was put on that chartered plane the taxpayers of Newfoundland paid for - chauffeur-driven to the airport, put on a chartered plane - a commercial one was not good enough for the Premier - and the Member for Pleasantville, who changed his mind and voted in favour of the Economic Recovery Commission, got his reward. That is what went on, Mr. Chairman. And you talk about what is happening. And when questions were directed today to the Minister of Transportation in this Province, the arrogance that Minister of Transportation got on with, Mr. Chairman.

At 1:30 this morning my No. 75 R4l L41 November 13, 1990 vol XLI

phone rang. I do not know how often it rang before I heard it, but I finally answered it and it was a taxi driver who had spent five hours between Terrenceville and Marystown because of road conditions, with fourteen men aboard. Mr. Chairman, do you know what the taxi driver told me? In all his year