Manitoba Hansard — 22 June 1999 (Sitting 48, 36th Legislature, 5th Session)

36-5-48

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 48- 1:30 p.m., 1\tesday, June 22, 1999

Member ASHTON, Steve BARREIT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen FRIESEN, Jean GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Trans con a Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River St. Boniface Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

31 63 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 22, 1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon eleven Grade 1 to Grade 8 students from Prairie Blossom School under the direction of Ms. Sasch Wohlers. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer). And, dix-neuf etudiants de Ia cinquieme annee de !'Ecole Salisbury Morse Place sous Ia direction de Monsieur Jean-Pierre Noel. Cet etablissement est situe dans Ia circonscription du depute de Concordia (Mr.

Doer). [Translation] Nineteen Grade 5 students from Salisbury Morse Place School under the direction of Mr. Jean-Pierre Noel. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Concordia. [English] On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Flooding Compensation for Farmers Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): A number of farm organizations and farmers have had the opportunity now to be underwhelmed, to be charitable, with the announcement made by the federal government, an announcement to be, quote, more flexible with an existing program.

But, Madam Speaker, an existing program that we have agreed is not farmer friendly, and it is in real pale contrast to the announcement made on May 1, 19 97, dealing with the flooding in the Red River Valley. On May 1 we saw a cheque being handed over from the federal government to the provincial government to deal with the real disaster and crisis in the Red River Valley. Yesterday, I did not see or hear about any specific amount of money to deal with the contingency plan on a per-acreage basis.

I would like to ask the Premier: was there any comparable treatment to the producers in southwestern Manitoba and the central region of the province that has been hit with this flooding to the kind of disaster assistance programs and money that flowed in 19 97? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I thank my honourable friend for the question. No, there has been no comparable treatment, and, no, there have been no ongoing consultations or discussions in response to letters from various ministers, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), the Minister responsible for disaster financial assistance or myself.

In fact, with all of the various recommen dations that we have made along the way, the joint news release that Premier Romanow and I

31 64 LEG ISLATI VE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA June 22, 19 99 put out, none of those things has received even the personal attention of Mr. Vancliefin terms of a request for a meeting. I believe that he had a very short meeting a couple of weeks ago on a Friday with the Minister of Agriculture. We have not been included in their deliberations or their discussions leading up to the announce ments that he made yesterday, and certainly there is a marked contrast between that and the very rapid response that we received in 19 97. * (1 335) Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, in 19 97 one could be cynical and say that there was a federal election, but there was a crisis in 19 97 that had to be responded to, and there is a crisis today. All parties agree to that.

Can the Premier again write the Prime Minister and demand a meeting with the Premier of Manitoba and the Premier of Saska tchewan with the Prime Minister to deal with these federal ministers who are arguing about whether Manitoba has applied or not when they clearly have applied for disaster assis tance and to ask this federal government to treat people that are facing this crisis in a comparable way to 19 97? Disaster assistance should not depend on the electoral situation in the country.

It should depend on the wiii of both the provincial government and the federal government to be specific on a contingency plan for unseeded acreage here in Manitoba. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I have twice written the Prime Minister and then jointly sent him a news release with Premier Romanow, and Mr. Romanow has done likewise. I would be happy to pursue this matter further. Obviously, we need to gather additional information on the seeding that has not yet taken place.

Weather has continued such that I am informed there is still some seeding taking place, but clearly there will be a very significant area of the province that will be without a crop planted. Clearly this is an area in which we are very, very concerned, and we are very concerned that the program that was developed unilaterally by Ottawa, the AIDA program, will not meet the needs of a great many people.

We will take whatever action is necessa ry to bring to the attention of the federal government what we believe to be an inadequate response to a very significant economic hardship, if not disaster, in southern Manitoba. Justice System Public Confidence Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): thank the Premier for those answers . A new question to the Premier. Madam Speaker, the Premier is quoted as saying that it was inappropriate for the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) to release the name in the House last week.

We are very concerned about the broken promise of this government to deal with the confidentiality of a gang hotline and its impact on public saf ety here in Manitoba. The confidentiality of that gang hotline has been totally destroyed by the Minister of Justice. If the confidentiality has gone, the gang hotline is dead, and your Minister of Justice regrettably killed it. I would like to ask the Premier: what action is he going to take to restore the integrity of confidence and confidential lines here in Manitoba to deal with crime and people that may commit crime in our communities? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): As indicated last date, the disclosure of the calls made from the office of the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), whether others made them, as the member first of all sta ted, or whether he in fact directly made them, as he later admitted on June 17 , 19 99, should not have been referenced by me in this House. I have indicated that already. As far as I am aware, all calls for assis tance or information since the province took over this function on or about May 10 , 19 99, have been handled on an appropriately confidential basis. Mr.

Doer: This government has not responded to the fact that they sent out a hundred thousand mailouts promising people that the line would be confidential. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) has not responded to that issue. Madam Speaker, the detection of crime, the par ticipation of citizens in the detection of crime in their neighbourhood, the identification in an anonymous way is crucial to this gang hotline, to the Crime Stoppers line, to any other source of inf ormation that allows the people of this province to participate as -

Jun e22, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOB A 3165 citizens to ke ep our str eets saf e . In fact, in th e last election th e Premier promis e d that law abiding peopl e would be saf e and free, fr ee from fear of being victimized. Give n that this ministe r has now put it into eff ect, has totally und ermine d th e saf ety of citizens and th e ir confidential status, what action is this Premier going to tak e to restor e th e confidenc e in th e justic e syst e m and restor e confidenc e in th e peopl e of Manitoba on confidential matt ers? Mr.

Toews: Madam Speaker, as indicat e d earlier, I hav e stat ed that th e disclosur e of th e calls from th e mem ber for St. Johns, who, for political reasons, was simply calling up and han gin g up, was inappropriate. We hav e tak en th e st e ps to corr ect this matt er. I am advis ed that this technical probl e m with th e phon e syst e m did not compromis e th e confidentiality of anyon e se eking information or assistanc e. Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Ord er, pl eas e. An Honou rable Member: Chairman Mao.

Madam Speaker: The honourabl e Ministe r of Justic e, to compl ete his respons e. * (1 340) Mr. Toews: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I und erstand th e Lead er of th e Oppositio n was just quoting from on e of his favourite political philosoph ers. The real reason th e ND P is raising this matt er again is to divert th e public's att ention from th e issu e of public saf ety. The ND P is out of gas ; it has no ideas. Ev ery sin gle pro gram that we bring forward th ey simply agre e on and snip e on th e edges in ord e r to ke ep th e far left of th eir party satisfi ed. Gang Hotline Anonym ity-Investigation Mr.

Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To th e Ministe r of Justic e , who is so conc erned about gangs that he ch eck e d messa ges on th e gan g hotline every five months. We receiv e d a call today from a teach e r whos e stud ent was living with a gan g memb e r who was involve d in br e ak and enters and so on, and having read about th e confidentiality of th e hotline , th e teach er ur ged th e stud ent to call, reassurin g her of her anonymity. She is now distrau ght, and he is worried.

My qu estion to th e ministe r is: to assur e Winnipeggers like this stud ent and like this teach e r who believes now, and I quot e, peopl e's live s ar e in dan ger, would th e governm ent appoint an independ ent person to tell us as soon as possibl e th e rol e of this minister, as he did nothing until he was cau g ht, how lon g calls hav e be en trac ed ov er th e last five years, what calls were trac ed in fact, what disclosur e and us e was mad e of nam es, ar e live s in dan ger, and would he st e p asid e in th e meantime? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Sinc e th e province took ov er th e maintenanc e of this particular line on or about May 10 , 19 99, th ere hav e be en a numb e r of conv e rsations betw een sta ff and th e Winnipeg Police Service re garding th e continue d op eration of this line . I am advis e d that staf f will indeed com e to a conclusion and mak e certain recom mendations on this matt e r in du e cours e. The police in fact hav e advis ed that this line has be e n of limite d us e , and any emergency calls we re rerout e d for assistanc e.

I und erstand, as far as any calls that cam e to th e att ention of th e provinc e on or about May 10 and aft erwards, th e y hav e be e n handl e d on an appropriately confidential basis, and I can assur e th e citizens of Winnipeg, indeed th e citizens of th e provinc e of Manitoba, of that fact. Mr. Mackintosh: Do e s this ministe r not und er stand that his assuranc es ar e totally meaningless, th e assuranc es by this governm ent are totally meaningless, particularly aft e r th e se ven whopp ers of th e last few days from this ministe r? Who can trust th is governm ent?

Would he get out of th e way of justic e so we can get th e real facts on this? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, as I indicat e d earlier, th e ND P is simply out of id eas. They simply agre e with our pro grams and snip e on th e edges. The y hav e no policies. They hav e no pro grams. Ind eed this is not an issu e that is

3I 66 LEG ISLATI VE ASSEMBLY OF MAN I TOBA June 22, I999 motivated by public saf ety. Public safety in fact is why we have announced the most effective Victims' Rights Act in Canada. We have passed very controversial but effective legislation regarding the seizure of motor vehicles in prostitution-related activities. We have a com plete gang management strategy in our jails, including no-c ontact visits. As mentioned the other day, Madam Speaker, we have a very aggressive transfer of violent youth to adult court where they pay for their actions in terms of adult consequences for adult criminal acts . So I reject the accusa tions of the member for St. Johns. *

(1345) Mr. Mackintosh: Does the minister not also understand that it looks like he himself has broken the law, The Privacy Act, The Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act? Would he get out of the way of Justice so that this serious matter can also be looked at? Mr. Toews: Indeed, as I have indicated earlier, the calls for assi stance have in fact been appropriately answered on a confidential basis, and the province did not identify any anonymous calls made where there was simply a hang- up without any leaving of information. I, of course, note the exception of the situation where the member for St.

Johns or a member of his office made in fact the calls from a specific number. As I have indicated, MTS has addressed that particular situation. In fact, I understand that the calls are being handled on an appropriately confidential basis. Minister of Justice Premier's Comments Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): For the past II years we have grown used to seeing arrogance from this government, but nothing matches the arrogant behaviour of this Premier (Mr.

Filmon), who yesterday and today refused to answer a single question about the behaviour and activities of the Minister of Justice, including our calls for his resignation, and instead went outside of the House and there in front of the media said that the minister's behaviour was inappropriate. Now we have a fraudulent gang line, we have a broken prom ise of confidentiality, we have possible violation of privacy laws. I want to ask the Premier to explain what he meant when he said that.

What did he mean when he said it was inappropriate, and what action is he going to take with his Minister of Justice who broke all those elements? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I too am aware of those comments, and I agree with the Premier in respect of the sta tements that he made. Indeed, it has been something that I have stated publicly in this House and outs ide of this House. Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I want to ask the Premier, if we still have one in this province, what he meant by "inappropriate" and what action he is going to take with the Minister of Justice.

It is totally inappropriate for the Minister of Justice to get up and sa y, well, I got accused of being inappropriate. When is the Premier going to take action with the Minister of Justice? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, as I indicated earlier, the disclosure of the calls that were made from the office of the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), whether others made them, as he first of all state d, or whether he made them himself, should not have been referenced by me in this House.

Indeed, as a result of that, I know that certain changes have been made to this particular system that would not allow for the passive identification of any particular cal l. As far as I am aware, this was indeed the only call that has come to my attention where that in fact this occurred. We took up the necessary action , and what we do is to assure the public that in fact they can utilize these lines and that their calls will be treated on an appropriately confidential basis. Mr.

Ashton : Madam Speaker, my final supple mentary is to the Premier, who presumably is the one respo nsible for appointing this minister. I would like to ask the Premier: we know this Premier is afraid of calling an election; is he now afraid of answering very serious questions about the conduct of his minister? Why will he not respond to questions in this House about

Jun e 22, 1999 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOB A 3167 behaviour by his ministe r which we believe should lead to that minister's removal? Mr. Toews: Again, Madam Speaker, I wish to str ess that this was a particular pro gram that was administered by th e Winnipeg Police Service, and th e province as a result of certain information- *

(1350) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Ord er, pl eas e. Mr. Toews: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The provinc e took ov e r th e mainte nanc e of this line on May 10, 1999, and th ere hav e be e n a numb e r of conv ersations amon gst staf f and with th e Winnipeg Police Service re garding th e continu e d op eration of this line . As I hav e indicate d earlier, staf f will be coming to a conclusion and will be making recomm endations on this matt e r in du e cours e. I believe that answ e rs th e qu estion rais ed. Citizen Hotlines Anonymity Mr.

Kevin Lamou reux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, yest erday during th e Estimat e s proc ess we had found out that th e Departm ent of Justic e is not necessarily alon e. There ar e oth er confidential lines, for exampl e, throu g h Family Services, th e welfar e fraud hotline ; throu gh th e Departm ent of Natural Resourc es, we hav e th e poach er hotline. We found out that in fact 9-4-5 numb e rs in thos e-w ell, at least in th e Family Services, was in fact being br each ed.

My qu estion to th e Premier is: what is being don e to ensur e that confidentiality and th e integrity of th ese line s and oth ers ar e in fact being honour ed? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I thank my honourabl e friend for that qu estion. Yes, wh e n th e issu e of th e 9-4-5 exchan ge showin g up in th e Justic e syst e m on th e hotline ros e in this Hous e , I immediately ask e d my staf f for a bri efin g and som e information on what happ ened with th e welfar e fraud line . Ind eed, th e 9-4-5 exchan ge did show up on th e welfar e fraud lin e .

I had not be en awar e; non e of th e se nior staf f within th e departm ent we re awar e. The y had to ask thos e that we re dealing sp ecifically with th e line , and it has be en rectifie d as of yest erday. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I look to th e Premier to get th e assuranc es from th e Premier: is th e Premier pr epar ed to tak e th e actions nec essary in ord e r to prot ect th e integrity of thos e confidential lines, as oppos e d to us having to stand up, go departm ent by departm ent or Crown corpora tion by Crown corporation that happ ens to provide this sort of a se rvice?

Will this Premier tak e action and ensur e that du e proc ess is given to all of thos e confidential line s throu ghout th e governm ent and its Crown corporations? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mad am Speaker, my information is that it has alr eady be en don e . Education System Standards Testing Breach Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, on a new qu estion I ask to th e Ministe r of Education: is th e ministe r willing to tabl e today th e report of th e Sev en Oaks School Division, a report that ev eryon e has be e n waiting for?

I believe that it is som ething in which th e Ministe r of Education is obligated, if not to tabl e, at th e very least to call for that inde pendent investigation. Will he do on e of thos e two today? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, in reviewing th e report pr e par e d by th e Sev en Oaks School Division, it is cl ear that th ere has be en a br each of standards test exam se curity by one Brian O'L eary.

The report do es, how ever, go on to nam e oth er individuals and to deal with oth er issu es, som e of which ar e th e subj ect of a grievanc e arbitration being und erway ri ght now for Mr. Trell er, th e teach er involve d in this matt er that mad e this all egation of br e ach. For that reason, th ere ar e a numb e r of asp ects of this report we ar e having reviewed by le gal couns e l to ensur e that we would be on appropriate ground to do what th e honourabl e memb e r is askin g.

31 68 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOB A Jun e 22, 19 99 That being said, it is very cl ear. It has be en confirme d what Mr. O'L eary had pr eviously acknowl edged, that he brok e th e rul es. I remind th e Lead er of th e Opposition (Mr. Do er) what he said about that. He said that if I appoint som ebody to be th e campaign manag er of our party and appoint him as th e se cr etary to th e chi e f of staf f position and th e se cr etary of cabinet- Treasury Board is responsi bl e in th ese kinds of all egations-I would tak e responsibility und er responsibl e gov ernm ent and resign.

We await word from th e Lead er of th e Opposition on this matt er. * (1 355 ) Gang Hotline Anonymity Mr. Dave Cbomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, on e of th e trag edies of th e Monnin vot e-fixing scandal that we hav e had in this Legislatur e is that th ere is a political ov erlap betw een political staf f and gov ernm ent staf f, and this gov ernm ent do e s not know th e differenc e betw een th e two.

With resp ect to th e Just ice minister, I would like to ask th e ministe r and th e Premier, perhaps, who said th e ministe r did som ething inappro priate: was it inappropriate for th e staf f to, in fact , tak e th e nam e off th e line , th en pr epar e a briefing not e and th en provid e a briefing not e to th e ministe r for, I think, political purpos es?

Was that appropriate action on th e part of th e staff of th e Departm ent of Justic e, and do e s that not indicat e this whol e political climat e and cultur e of this gov ernment who car es nothing about th e public and about getting re- elect ed mor e than anything? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, sinc e th e memb e r for Kildonan has refer enc ed th e Monnin report, I want to quot e for him from pag e 58 in which Mr.

Monnin said that Sale, referring to th e memb e r for Cr esc entwood, by his own admission told Sorokowski: "It is my und erstanding that if you do not want to me e t with th e investigators, you don't hav e to. " The n Mr. Monnin says: "I would hav e expect e d Mr. Sale, a memb e r of th e Legislatur e, to urg e in th e strong est possibl e terms coop eration with th e Commission's investigators. His advice is dire ctly contrary to what he was expounding in th e Legislatur e-a full inquiry to get to th e bo ttom of th e ma tter. " And Mr.

Monnin go es on to say : "I not e that th e 19 98 am e ndm ents to th e two statut es in qu estion now provid e that all persons call e d upon eith e r at th e inv estigative stag e or at th e hearing stag e must co-op erat e and testify fully. " In oth er words, th e memb e r for Cr esc ent wood (Mr. Sale) was couns elling th ese individuals, Sorokowski and perhaps Sigurdson, to br each th e law. That is th e probl e m he re, Madam Speaker, and neither that memb e r of th e Legislatur e nor his Lead e r has th e courag e to say anything to th e ir memb e r becaus e of that. Point of Order Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, Beauch esn e Citation 417 is very cl ear that answ ers to qu e stions should be as bri e f as possibl e , deal with th e matt er rais e d and should not provok e debat e. Aft e r having asked qu e stions now for a day and a half, we actually thought th e Premier was going to get up and answ er som e of th e se rious qu e stions being rais ed about th e Ministe r of Justic e (Mr. To ews). Madam Speaker, if you will perus e th e minister's comm e nts, he was talking about th e Monnin report. We ar e pr epar e d to debat e th e Monnin report.

We ar e especially waiting for th e pros ecutor's report, but we ask e d about th e conduct of th e Ministe r of Justic e. It is about time th e Premier of this provinc e had th e guts to stand up in this Hous e and answ er our qu e stions on th e conduct of his minister. Madam Speaker: The honourabl e gov e rnment Hous e lead er, on th e sam e point of ord er. Hon.

Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, time and time again in this Ass embly we hav e se en th e opposition ask qu e stions to provok e debat e; we hav e se en th e opposition Hous e lead er misus e points of ord e r continually to be abl e to continu e th e debat e, to provok e fur ther debat e. Madam Speaker, I would ask that you call memb ers opposit e to ord er. If th ey want to live

Jun e 22, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOB A 316 9 by th e rul e s of this Hous e , th e y should hav e to live by th em in all circumsta nc es. Madam Speaker: On th e point of ord e r rais e d by th e honourabl e memb e r for Thompson , indeed I will tak e th e point of ord er und e r advis em ent to res earch Hansard and report back to th e Chamb e r. *** * (1 400) Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speak er, I would like to ask th e Premier: last year in this Le gislat ur e we pass e d am e ndments to The Fr eedom of Information Act and The Personal Health Information Act wh ere fine s ar e rend ered for br eaking of thos e acts of $50,0 00 or six months in jail. If th e Premier finds th e conduct of a Ministe r of Justic e inappropriate, why will he not tak e appropriate st eps to deal with th e misconduct of his Ministe r of Justic e? Why will he not do that? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): As indicat e d else wh ere, I know that th e provinc e took ov er th ese calls and this particular call line as a result of certain conc erns expr e ss e d on May 10 of 19 99. At that time, in fact , th e staf f ensur e d that th e messa ges we re cl ear ed from th e line and indeed mad e any appropriate follow-up calls. As far as I am awar e, any calls for assis tanc e or information sinc e th e provinc e took ov er this function on or about May 10 , 19 99, hav e, in fact , be e n handl ed on an appropriately confidential basis.

Minister of Justice Premier's Comments Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I will again try to ask th e Premier a qu estion.

Will th e Premier, who figur es prominently in TV ads about how he is going to get tou g h on crime, explain how it is that violations of The Fr eedom of Information Act and The Personal Health Information Act , which hav e fin e s of $50,000 and six months incarceration, ar e consid ered se rious enou gh, and yet th e violation admitte d by th e Premier of his Ministe r of Justic e of confidentiality on som ething that aff ects hundr eds of thousands of Manitobans has not even a comm ent and th e Premier do es not even mention it in th e Chamb e r? How do e s th e Premier defend that , Madam Speaker? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speak er, th e memb e r opposit e, of cours e, as usual misr e pr ese nts and exag gerat es and says thing s that simply ar e not tru e, wh e n th e only person who is fe eling violat ed, as I und erstand it , is th e memb e r fo r St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) , who was playing games with- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Filmon: No. The ministe r has confirme d that oth ers hav e not be en ide ntifi ed, that th ere has not be e n a br each of confid entiality of any oth er point except th e memb e r for St.

Johns , who , for political purpos es, was continuously phoning th e gan g line . Point of Order Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): The First Ministe r sur ely knows , becaus e he has be en cau ght mor e than enou g h time s on it, that it is imprope r to imput e motive s of that typ e. I just draw att ention of th e Hous e to this stat ement by th e Ministe r of Just ice, but that was of cours e last Tuesday wh ere he said: "I know that he " that is th e memb e r for St. Johns- " is ch ecking up on th e gan g hotline, and that is good to se e that th e memb e r of th e opposition do e s that.

" Madam Speaker: The honourabl e Ministe r of Justic e , on th e sam e point of ord er. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Ind eed, is that not part of our political syst em? He is in fact doing it for political purpos es. I se e that he is not denying it. It is not nec essarily a wron g thing to do ; I am sayin g that this is not an issu e that he is raising for public safe ty matt ers. This is an issu e that he is raising for political purpos es. Madam Speaker: Ord er, pl eas e. The honour abl e memb e r for St. Johns did not hav e a point of ord e r.

3170 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOB A Jun e 22, 19 99 Video Games Rating System Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, memb ers of my caucus, disturb ed by th e incre asin gly viol ent, graphic, realistic, porno graphic and interactive natur e of vid e o games, we re ch eer ed wh e n th e thron e sp eech promis e d a rating syst e m for vide o games, but we we re dismay e d wh e n this rating syst e m turn ed out to be industry-bas e d, entirely voluntary and an Am erican-bas ed rating syst em.

So I would like to ask th e ministe r if sh e could confirm that any 12 -y ear-old boy, for exampl e, could buy Forsak e n, which featur es animated blood, gore, viole nc e and th e ultimate death match and allows absolut e control to play ers. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): This governm ent is very pl eas e d to hav e brou ght forward an initiative which is educative to par ents about th e kinds of videos that th eir childre n ar e usin g .

We ar e usin g an industry-bas ed rating syst em, which is in fact se en to be very se nsitive and very helpful to par ents, which include s a rating syst e m on th e front of th e vide o and on th e back a descriptor which gives information, becaus e th e probl e m is oft e n par ents do not know what it is that th eir childre n ar e renting. We believe that it will be helpful. It is an int ernational syst e m so that peopl e who want to rent videos in Ontario or Saskatch ewan or in th e Stat es or wh erev er th e y may be trav elling will in fact hav e a uniform syst e m that will be helpful to th em. Ms.

McGifford: Could th e ministe r confirm that this sam e child could rent or buy Kingpin, which allows play ers to tar get body parts so that you can se e th e actual dama ge, including exit wounds, and as well talk to peopl e th e way you want from smack to cool? Mrs. Vodrey: I am not familiar with eith er of thos e vide o games, so I will tak e that qu estion as notice. I think it would be very unlikely many of us would be familiar with thos e games, but I would like to remind th e memb er- [int erjection] Well, th e memb e r se ems to know about th em. Lots of time on her hands. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Ord er, pl eas e. The Ministe r of Cultur e , Heritage and Citizenship, to compl ete her respons e . Mrs. Vodrey: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. This is a tool for par ents so that par ents can know. It is a voluntary submission, and if par ents se e that th ere is not a rating syst em, th en th e y can know that that is perhaps on e that th e y do not want th eir child to watch. How ever, I can tell you that th e vol untary submission is very hi gh. I stand to be corr ect ed; I believe it is at least 90 perc ent. It is extrem ely hig h by th e industry.

The rating is don e by a voluntary advisory council and has be en in fact quite succ essf ul. Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, I would like th e ministe r to explain to th e Hous e why film s and videos ar e class ifie d by th e Film Classifica tion Board, but th e rating syst e m for vide o games is entirely voluntary. It is also voluntary for th e deal er, wh eth er th e deal er choos e s to us e th e syst e m or not. It is entirely voluntary; that is th e probl e m with th e syst em. Mrs.

Vodrey: What th e memb e r has for gott en or totally misund erstood about vide o games is that vide o games can be pull e d down on th e Int ernet on comput e rs, an entirely unr egulat ed syst em. Vide o games can be acquire d in many oth er ar eas oth er than simply going to th e vide o stor e . Parents hav e watch ed th eir childre n play vide o games occasionally in which th ere ar e so many le vels to th e game, certain le vels can be put on whil e an adult is th ere and th en th e level chan ges wh e n th e adult is gone.

So, Madam Speaker, in reco gnition of th e fact that vide o games ar e availabl e throu g h a numb e r of syst ems, som e of th em entirely unr egulat ed such as th e Int ernet, this governm ent has com e forward, this governm ent has put a tool in th e hands of par ents to assist par ents. But, as usual, th e memb e r across th e way would like to compl etely, as always is th e cas e for th e ND P , play Big Broth er and to compl etely deal with this situation. In fact, th e voluntary submission has be e n extr emely helpful and us eful. As I hav e said, th e complianc e rate has be e n extr emely high.

The int ernational natur e of

Ju n e 22, 1999 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOB A 31 7 1 th e rating syst e m is helpful to peopl e becaus e th e y can rent vide o games in any part of North Am erica. * (1410 ) Flooding Compensation for Farmers Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, on Ju n e 15 th e governm ent announc ed th e $1 0-an-acr e assistanc e for farm ers for custom se eding . How ever, farm ers ar e not cl ear as to exactly what this governm ent is cov ering. Will th e ministe r explain to farm ers what is cov ered? Is it just se eding . Ar e you pr e par e d to help th em with pr eparation of soil?

What is cov ered und er this pro gram, and is th e pro gram retroactive prior to Ju ne 15 ? Hon. Harry Eons (Minister of Agriculture): will mak e sur e that th e honourabl e memb e r has a copy of th e description of th e Custom Seeding Program in a few mom ents wh e n we get into th e Estimat es of th e Departm ent of Agriculture . But I want to assur e th e honourabl e memb e r that it is for th e pr eparation of putting a crop in. It involve s se ed bed pr eparation as well durin g this period of time from Ju n e 15 to Ju ne 25.

I might report that farm ers ar e making every effort to get as much of th e crop in as I sp e ak. There ar e still a few mor e remaining days and, th e Lord willing , th e weath er will hold, and I am hoping th at th e ov erall scal e , dimension of th e probl e m will shrink. Ms. Wowchuk: Well, as well as providing me with th e information, th e ministe r should get this information out to farm ers, becaus e farm ers ar e confus ed as to what is cov ered. Madam Speaker: Question, pl ease . Ms.

Wowchuk: Will th e ministe r also indicat e wh eth er his governm ent is giving any con sid eration to off ering farm ers cov era ge for a Gr eenf eed Program as farm ers in Saskatch ewan ar e off e red if th e y ar e not abl e to put a crop in but th ey ar e wanting to cl ean up th eir we eds by putting in greenfeed cov era ge aft er th e lat e se eding dat e? Mr. Enos: Madam Speaker, I am awar e of what is being off e red to farm ers in similar circum- stanc es in Sas katch ewan. I hav e had discussions with my crop insuranc e chairman, Mr. Charlie Mayer, and th e gen eral mana ger, Mr.

Neil Hamilton, and we ar e examining all possibilitie s of th e kind that th e honourabl e memb e r mentions. Allow me again, while I am on my fe et, to in fact con gratulat e a private or ganization, Ducks Unlimited, who hav e put up a million dollars to plant a hundr e d thousand acr es and off e red a $10 comp ensation packa ge to farm ers who will plant fall varieties, wint e r wheat, fall ry e. They ar e doing it from a habitat reason, but it so happ ens to be-not going to solv e all th e probl ems th ere, but it certainly is a help to thos e farm ers who will tak e advanta ge of it. Ms.

Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, given that Ministe r V anclie f yest erday said that this governm ent has not tak en th e ne cessary st eps to trigger th e disast e r assistanc e, even though we hav e th e copies of th e lett e r that th e governm ent has written, will th e governm ent tak e th e st eps, mak e th e phon e calls to th e fed eral governm ent to ensur e that th e peopl e who ar e aff ect ed by flooding this year ar e tr eat ed th e sam e way as th e peopl e in th e Red Rive r Vall e y and that th e fed eral governm ent do e s not play games sayin g that th e governm ent has not contact e d th em?

Will you tak e thos e st eps? Mr. Enos: Madam Speaker, I will rep eat again and again that all thos e measur e s ar e in plac e and taking plac e . My departm ent officials, departm ent officials from oth er departm ents involve d ar e at this time putting to geth e r th e scal e of som e of th e probl ems in terms of infrastruct ur e costs, estimat e s of pot ential agricultural loss which ar e extremely hig h if th e curr ent level of uns eeded acr eag e should remain uns eed ed. All of that is being packa ged to geth er.

But, in th e meantime, direct contact has be en mad e throu g h th e differ ent fed eral ministries, and I am at loss. I know that th e honourabl e memb e r was with me in Brandon yest erday wh e n th e fed eral ministe r indicat e d yet again as if th ere was som e furth er action that th e province had to tak e to trigger th ese events. The disast e r financial assista nc e act is in full forc e, and th e Minister of Gov ernm ent Services (Mr. Pitura), who tour e d with mys elf and th e Premier

317 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 19 99 (Mr. Filmon) just a week ago in a number of communities throughout the southwest, made that very plain. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Winnipeg General Strike Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask honourable members to join with us in commemorating the 80th anniversary of a pivotal time in Manitoba's and Winnipeg's history, the General Strike of 1919 .

Eighty years ago today, Winnipeggers awoke to find our streets silent after the shocking events of Bloody Saturday when two men were killed on Main Street as force was used to end a general strike in the city. It was the end of a tumultuous week which had begun with the 4 a.m. knock on the door of several families. Bob Russell, one of the leaders, was sleeping on his back porch on Ross A venue, and his daughter describes the tragic scene as his three-year-old son tried to prevent the Royal North-West Mounted Police taking his father away to Stony Mountain.

The facts of the General Strike, the goal of the metal trades and other unions to expand collective bargaining, and the resistance of the owners who saw a loss of power are relatively straightforward. But the meaning of history is much deeper than the facts. In Brandon, Seattle, Vancouver and elsewhere in the world, the end of the war had brought renewed expectations of hope for the ordinary men and women who had fought that terrible war. In Manitoba, part of that post-war struggle was played out in the General Strike.

The trial for sedition of the strike leaders, their imprisonment, and the use of force by the government to suppress the strike meant that in the short run the strike did fail. In the longer term, the issues of collective bargaining, the right to dissent, the respective role and power of each group in society are still part of our collective debate in this Legis lature and in this province. Flooding-Compensation for Farmers Mr.

Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Speaker, much has been said in this Legislature and in the media and other places about the difficult situation that many farmers find themselves in since the spring of this year. Many farmers across this province will not be able to put most of their crop in. Many farmers will probably not put any crop in, and many will find themselves in a position where much of their land will not be seeded.

The difficulty that this creates not only to the farmers but in the general sense-and those communities that are most affected, the business community, the schools, the people, the agencies that provide services for people that are under stress are all going to be affected.

I believe that the funding that has so far been announced-one of the most effective announcements that has been made has been the Custom Seeding Program, because we all know that farmers, at heart, will do everything in their power, everything they can, to get seed into the ground to make a crop grow because that is the essence of their existence. That is the very culture that they were born and raised in. I believe that the federal government should have announced a program that would have mirrored what was announced by the federal government and the provincial government in the Red River Valley in 1997.

I believe that the early start program should have been imple mented immediately. I believe that the JERI program should have been initiated immediately because the JERI program helps mediate some of the losses that the business community will find themselves in, as well as the farm community. I believe that the AIDA program and the NISA program, as being expounded now by the federal government, will only come part way in recognizing the real loss because many of the younger farmers, Madam Speaker-and I wish you would allow me another minute or so many of the younger farmers-could I have leave just to continue?

Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Emerson have leave? No? Leave has been denied.

June 22, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 317 3 Mr. Murray Smith Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, recently I was pleased to congratulate Murray Smith, retired teacher and community activist, who in April of this year was named the 19 99 Joseph Zuken Citizen Activist. Today I am equally pleased to inform the House that Murray Smith recently was elected the president of the Canadian Association of Retired Teachers. Murray Smith is, of course, eminently suited for such a role. As a Rhodes scholar, Murray Smith brings a wide range of knowledge and inter national experience to his work.

As a public school teacher, he was highly regarded by students and colleagues, apparent in his nomination for Canada's national Outstanding Educator Award. As assistant superintendent for Winnipeg School Division No.1, he promoted the abolition of corporal punishment, education for pregnant students and the elimination of barriers to education for older students. As president of the Manitoba Teachers' Society, he promoted the status of women and the elimination of discrimination against women.

As president of the Manitoba association of retired teachers, he advocated for pension reform and the value of early childhood education. Indeed, early childhood education is near and dear to his heart. Murray Smith's willingness to accept the position as president of the Canadian Associ ation of Retired Teachers is one more sign of his distinguished and dedicated pedagogical record. We in Manitoba are fortunate to have had the benefit of his incisive intelligence, commitment to action, enlightened vision and belief in public service.

Once again I ask all members to join with me in congratulating Murray Smith on his recent election as president of the Canadian Associ ation of Retired Teachers. * (1 420) Lions Prairie Manor Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Madam Speaker, yesterday afternoon I had the pleasure of representing my colleague the Honourable Eric Stefanson, the Minister of Health, at the opening of the Lions Prairie Manor renovation project.

This project, although involving upgrades to the emergency services, sprinkler alarms and sprinklers, focused primarily on improving the quality of life of those residents afflicted with Alzheimer-type dementia. I want to take this opportunity to highlight the spirit of co-operation that allowed for this opportunity. It started with the residents and families identifying a concern, then working with Bev Boyd, facility director, and her staff, coming together with architectural designs. They worked in co-operation with Murray Graham, current chairperson, and former chairperson, Mr.

Walt Bohonos, of the Lio ns Prairie Manor Foundation, and brought forward their ideas to the regional health authority. Having partnered with the regional health authority, the regional health authority in turn partnered with Manitoba Health to bring this project to fruition. These renovations included one on-unit space for dining, activity room and lounge, enclosed sunroom with access to a safe, enclosed outside area, which is going to provide the residents of the Lions Prairie Manor with an enhanced quality of life. These projects are key and vital to our community.

By forming a succes sful partner ship, these initiatives can become a reality and can contribute to the quality of life of all Manitobans. I would like to take this opportunity and ask all honourable members of this House to congratulate all those who have worked so hard to make this plan and this project a success. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Flooding-Compensation for Farmers Mr. Kevin Lamou reux (Inkster): You know, in listening to the member for Emerson's (Mr. Penner) appeal in terms of agriculture, I, too, would like to appeal to the member for Emerson in terms of the custom seeding benefit program.

This is a program in which there is a need to see a little bit more flexibility. I think, given the background knowledge that the member for Emerson has in terms of the farming industry, this is something which he might want to take on

31 74 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 19 99 as one of his personal causes because of the time frame and ensuring that there is a little bit more flexibility to take into consideration farmers who do have some machinery, that it is not quite late to take that machinery out and do their own planting of seeds as opposed to having to bring people from the outside in. Those are the only ones who get subsidized, from what I understand today.

There is a need for some flexibility, and we are not too late to ensure that there is going to be some additional seeding, to recognize the fact that there is an additional cost, an additional burden over and above, unique, as opposed to what happened in the flood of the century. Thank you, Madam Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, if I could ask if you would canvass the House to see if there is leave to waive private members' hour, given that we are scheduling that for Thursday morning.

Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to waive private members' hour today, with the understanding that we will have private members' hour Thursday morning? [agreed] Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, for today I would ask if you could canvass the House for leave for the Estimates of the Executive Council to continue in the Chamber, and should that be completed, to be followed by Highways and Transportation. In Room 255, the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture to be called for that particular room.

Should that wind up, Consumer and Corporate Affairs are normally in that room, but I do not think that will be necessitated today. For members' information, the Estimates of the Department of Family Services will continue in Room 254. So I believe we need leave for two of those. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Is there leave firstly for the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation to be considered in the Chamber following the completion of the Estimates of Executive Council? [agreed] Therefore, is there leave for the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture to be considered in Room 255, and upon completion of those Estimates, the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs to follow? [agreed] Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs.

Vodrey), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and that this House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Most Gracious Majesty. Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concu rrent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume the Estimates of the Department of Family Services. When the committee last sat it had been considering item 9.3. Community Living (

a) Regional Operations

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits, on page 67 of the Estimates book. Shall that item pass? The honourable minister, to complete your response to the question that was raised yesterday by the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, on two counts. I think we were just discussing-and if I can remember my honourable friend's com ments, it was around staffing, retaining and recruiting staff and salaries of staff who work in the community in the area of service to those with mental disabilities.

Certainly, he has raised an issue that I know he has heard about and we have, as government, too, an ongoing issue and one that is not, I do not think, easily resolvable. I will explain why, that being that we are seeing a significant increase in the number of disabled who are living within our community. That issue is not going to go away or the numbers are not going to decrease. We .-·

June 22, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 75 are going to see increases on a year-by-year basis in the areas of support and service for the mentally disabled. We all know that some of the reasons for that are that today newborns are living, when in years gone by they may not have survived for any lengthy period of time. We know that with new technology and monitoring and intensive care supports, children who would have died in the past at birth are living now.

So we see the increasing demand at the front end, plus we know that with improved health technology, we are seeing people live longer who would have died years earlier in the past. So we have an issue that is certainly significant, certainly is increasing, and we are going to see increasing numbers I think year after year to come.

So it does present some unique challenges, I guess, for us because we have provided support and service and we have moved toward community living, away from institutionalization over the last number of years, and then that has created the need to provide additional supports in the community. There always was the theory or the feeling that services provided in the community would be less costly than institutional services. I think we have found that that is not the case because if you are looking at the quality of life of individuals in the community, there are several different components.

It is not only the facilities and the creation of the facilities that they are living in, but also the support services, the day programming, the transportation, all of the other activities where, you know, some things may be less costly, but in the overall it is probably more expensive to house people in the community than it is in institutions, although you will see in institutions that salaries are probably higher than salaries that support people in the community. So there are issues to deal with and we know that they are not going to go away.

We have to try to figure out how we can best provide those services and supports in the most cost-effective way. I think it is incumbent upon all of us to try to find those answers and those solutions. So I recognize and realize and have been working with those who support people in the mentally disabled community out in the community, the organizations and the agencies, understanding their issues and knowing that we need to be making some changes. In the past, years ago, we used to provide grants or per diems based on certain things.

We have tried to give block funding or block grants so that organizations can move dollars around in the best and most appropriate manner possible to provide the supports and services, and in some instances that allows them to pay staff more. If you have grants tied specifically to certain kinds of supports, it makes it more difficult for organizations to be able to be creative and innovative in the way they deliver service. So we have tried that measure, and I think there has been a very minimal amount of success achieved in allocating the resources where they most appropriately need to be allocated.

We also have given increases in grants, 5 percent last year and 5 percent this year, to residential services, and it does allow them to change slightly the salary that they are able to pay to their employees. We have also done the same thing on the day programming side, giving 5 percent this year, only 2 percent last year, but 5 percent this year, to day programming. So we are trying again to recognize the difficulty. I understand completely the issues. How do you find the right balance between-! mean, we are putting $8.7 million into services and supports for the mentally disabled in this year's budget.

Every year, even in times of recession, when departments were getting less funding, I was able to make a case with my colleagues for additional support in services to the mentally disabled. We have had increases, I would say, of $22 million in this area over the last four years, which is a significant increase, but again the demands are increasing and the number of people that need to be served is increasing. There is not just a limitless amount of money that can go into programming, but we are trying to be as sensitive as we can.

Also, I have started to talk with the community about, you know, are we doing things in the most appropriate way or are there better ways to do things? We have tried, in some instances, to look at self-managed care. If the family or the support network had the

31 76 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 19 99 resources allocated to them directly, could they provide a better service to their family member or to the individual that they are supporting? I have asked those questions and, in some instances, yes, we have done that across the board, even with services for children with disabilities. We have said if we are spending the dollars anyway, can you think of better ways that that money could be spent? Do you have to fit into certain criteria in order to get grant funding or grant support? * (1 440) You know, we have to work at this together.

I have to indicate that it is not going to be easy for any government into the future to find the answers in this area. So what is the most appropriate service? Is there a more cost effective way of doing it so we can provide more services to more people, so we can increase the salaries of those that are working in the community? No easy answers. I suppose it is a time for debate and dialogue. We are coming up to an election. We have put significantly more dollars, $22 million over the last four years, $8.7 million this year, into this area of programming for the mentally disabled.

What number is the right number? Would it be $16 million or $24 million or $10 0 million? Would we then be meeting the needs of everyone and paying adequate salaries? I do not know what the answer to that is. I do not know what more of a commitment I could make as someone who has had experience in this area and knows that the needs are increasing, more people are needing to be served. We have got to strike the right balance. We know that Manitobans want us to support people with mental disabilities.

That is one area where taxpayers certainly do not seem to object to finding dollars and really believe that we support those who cannot support themselves. I have tried to the best of my ability to find as many resources in this area as we can possibly find, balancing between the needs of all the people that we serve in my department, because many are very needy. So it might be interesting to hear whether my honourable friend might have any suggestions or ideas or sense of where his party might come from when we move into an election campaign and what, you know, their recommen dations or suggestions might be.

It is not easy. I mean, you cannot put a number on what might need to be there or, I mean, what is an appropriate salary. We do not set the salaries in government. The agencies set the salaries based on the grant funding that they get. Their dollars can only be stretched so far too. I just want to let my honourable friend know that this is an area that needs some significant work with the community that supports and serves people with mental disabilities and government departments. I know we do not have all of the answers as yet. All I know is that the issue is not going to go away.

It is going to get more severe. Governments down the road and through the next generation are going to have to think about how we can best deliver the services in the most cost-effective way so that most people are being served and people that are working within the system receive decent remuneration for the service they provide. I have had these discussions with organizations when I meet with them when the requests come forward. I guess we are seeking some solutions. I am not sure that government can find those solutions alone.

But I do know that organizations such as the Association of Community Liv ing, for instance, the Steinbach branch has written and has indicated that the 5 percent increase that they received in the budget this way will give us the opportunity to begin sort of recovering salaries within the front line staffing component that they have. We are going to have to continue to look at that in successive budgets.

Again, I have to say that there is no easy answer, and there is not going to be a quick fix, but I think we need some public dialogue around what is appropriate and what can be achieved because, as I said, we will have more and more people in these circumstances. We will have more and more people with complications or more significant disabilities as a result of the new technology, our medical technology, our ability to keep newborns alive and to keep people alive longer at the retirement end.

June 22, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 317 7 Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I thank the minister for her answer. Since the minister made reference to increasing numbers, I am wondering if she could tell me what the increase in numbers is year over year? I do have the numbers in the Estimates book at page 50, but I do not have the annual report from last year. I know that her staff have all these numbers at their finger tips. I see it is broken down by different categories, so I just wondered if the minister can give me the increases. Mrs.

Mitchelson: It is not an easy number to pull together, and I think we do have some analysis that tells us how many. We are talking about adults with a mental disability, but we do know for instance, because we have supports through Children's Special Services for children with mental disabilities, we have some sense or understanding of how many people will be coming up. So there is a difference between the number we serve now and the number that might be turning 18 , sometimes 21, because we know that many can stay in the school system until they are 21 and receive support. So it is not an easy number to get.

I do not know if the question is coming from the angle of saying: what is the issue going to be over the next number of years as a result of children that might. be added to, or are we just looking for a specific number on how many people we are serving today? * (1 450) Mr. Martindale: Since the minister said that there are increasing numbers, and she gave reasons for why that is true, which I certainly accept, I am wondering if you could tell me how many people were served in each of these categories a year ago as compared to today's Estimates book. If there is an increased number, that should be illustrative.

Mrs. Mitchelson: I think we can do this one at a time then. I have the numbers for residential accommodation. For 1997-98 it was 3,13 4; 19 98-99, 3, 262. For 19 99-2000, it is estimated at 3, 350. This is for day services: 19 97-98, 1, 951; 19 98-99, 2, 12 7; and estimated for 19 99-2000, 2,220. For respite services, 19 97-98, 641; 19 98-99, 672; estimated for 19 99-2000, 723 . For vocational rehab, I guess 19 97-98 it was 1, 220; 19 98-99, the same number, and we are estimating the same, so it is 1, 220. Mr.

Martindale: In the letters that were addressed to the Premier and to the minister and mostly copied to myself, people assumed that institutional care is more expensive than living in the community. The minister has just indicated in previous remarks that it is more expensive to support an individual in the community rather than in an institution. I am wondering if the minister has data on per diem costs or daily costs or costs on a daily basis which would illustrate her contention that it is more expensive to have people living in the community. Mrs.

Mitchelson: I guess to make a blanket statement that it costs more in every instance for someone to live in the community is not right, but the more medically complex an individual is, the cost there, it is. It does cost more to support them in the community than it does in an institution. And, as a result of places like MDC and St. Amant not admitting more people, that means that more costly clients with more severe medical needs are being placed in the community. If you are relatively high func tioning in the community, the cost would be less than in an institutional setting.

But the reality is that we are not placing people in institutions today, so the costs and the needs are higher, and it is more costly to support someone with high medical needs in the community than it is in an institution. Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the minister: who is providing services to the individuals who have the high medical needs? Would it be St. Amant Centre's community living arrangements or are we talking about the groups that are writing letters to the Premier, the minister, such as Eastside Thames and other organizations, for example, the ones in Gimli? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Eastside Thames is not a residence; it is a day program facility. But the three, I guess, organizations that would provide

317 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 19 99 support to very high medical needs individuals would be St. Amant through their community. There is the odd person who is admitted to the St. Amant Centre now, but most of the services are delivered in the community. St. Amant, New Directions and Hydra House would be the three that deal predominantly with the very high medical needs individuals who are living in the community. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Chairperson, the minister said that block funding and block grants allow organizations-and I think we are talking about nonprofits who provide services in the community-to pay their staff more, and I am wondering if the minister can expand on that for me, please. Mrs. Mitchelson: guess rather than as I explained it as block grants, it is block per diems. In the past we had about six dif ferent program lines with six different per diem rates that each organization had to account for and apply for on a yearly basis.

By going to one per diem across the board, that gave the agencies and organizations the flexibility to use the dollars with less administration. I mean, when you have got to do the administrative work around accounting for six different per diem rates for individuals, it makes it administratively top heavy, and it allowed them the ability to cut down on administrative costs and ensure that the dollars were going toward the programming for individuals whom they were caring for and into staff salaries. They were quite pleased, actually, when we made that change.

I do not recall having any organization say that it was not the right direction to move. It freed up some of their time to do the kind of work that they wanted to do for the residents whom they were serving. * (1 500) Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the minister how she feels that reducing the number of categories from six to one, other than maybe freeing up some bookkeeping time, allowed these organizations to pay their staff more. If they are getting the same amount of money but have fewer categories, what difference does it make? Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, Mr.

Chairperson, in addition to streamlining the administrative function, we have given a 5 percent increase last year and a 5 percent increase this year to the per diems. So there is less administrative work that needs to be done and more ability with the additional funding on the one per diem rate. I mean, my honourable friend may want to argue, but it certainly was a direction that was supported by all of the agencies and organizations that we fund to deliver the service. Mr.

Martindale: The minister said that they do not set salaries, which is true, because you give the money to the organization and they do their budgeting, at least that is my understanding, but their ability to pay their staff decent wages is totally dependent on the grant that they receive from government. So it seems to me that it is irrelevant that you do not set the salaries. The real issue is how much money they are getting from government. Mrs. Mitchelson: Absolutely.

They have to use the grant dollars that they get or do some other sort of fundraising in order to run their operations, and some do, to varying degrees. Some do fundraising and use that to augment the grants and supports that they get from government, and others maybe do not have as great an ability to do that or choose not to for whatever reason.

So, yes, he is right, but I want to indicate to my honourable friend that our priority has always been on trying to provide support and service for as many individuals as we possibly can, and when times were tough and budgets were tight and there was not more money within government, our priority was to ensure that we delivered service to as many individuals as we possibly could. will admit and have admitted to organizations that I know that there is not an ability to pay the staff high wages. That is the reality. I know where my honourable friend is coming from.

He should say our grants should be higher in this area so we can pay more. We have increased by 5 percent the grant last year;

June 22, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 317 9 we have done another 5 percent this year in good faith, and we will continue to look, as our resources permit, at increases in grant funding to these organizations. Will it be significantly more than 5 percent? I certainly cannot say, yes, it will. I know that my honourable friend when it comes to the daycare line is going to say increase grants so that higher salaries can be paid, and I guess my question is, you know, if that is a commitment my honourable friend feels he could make, what is the appropriate amount?

How many millions of dollars would he put into this area and where would he take it from? So those are all questions. It is fine to say we should be putting more money in, and we agree that we have to continue as resources permit to move in the direction of ensuring that those who are working in the community with some of the most vulnerable within our society are adequately remunerated and agencies that are providing the service have the ability to recruit and retain staff. We have got to move towards that. Are we going to fix that overnight? No, we are not.

Are we going to continue as resources permit and as the economy continues to do well with all of the economic activity and the increased tax revenue and increased revenues that are being generated and balanced budgets, because balanced budgets and paying down the debt give us money that we would pay on interest to provide support to the social side of government, which is very much in line with all of the issues that we deal with in the Department of Family Services. We will continue to look at that.

I think that we have indicated, with our five percent increases over the last two years, a commitment and a seriousness to trying to address the issues. But they will not be addressed overnight. I can indicate again that we are going to see increasing demand for support and service in this area. So you have got to balance the grant money and per diems for an individual on an individual basis with the number of people that need to be served and how can we get some services to those that need them.

So no easy answer in this area, but I think that we have shown our commitment over the last number of years in increased financial support in this area and in the last two years an increase in grant support so that we can start to address the issue of salaries. Mr. Martindale: The minister earlier said that they want to deliver services in the most cost eff ective way. I am wondering if the minister would like to expand on that since it is certainly possible to interpret that as meaning that if you keep wages down you are being more cost effective. Can the minister assure me that that is not what she meant?

Mrs. Mitchelson: It makes no sense at all to keep wages down and not be able to retain trained staff. Ultimately then you are not providing the best service to individuals that need that support. That is not what I meant. I am saying we have to review the way we deliver service today, see whether the programs that we have in place are the right programs for the right reasons.

If we, for instance, were able to give a cash payment of what we support one individual for today to the family or to the support network or to the agency in some way and have self managed care, is there an ability for them to get better service at the same cost? I mean, those are all things that have to be looked at. That is the common-sense approach. My ultimate goal would be that we would be able to pay staff more because we are able to deliver services in a better way. I do not know whether that can be done, but I have challenged the community to work with us to see whether we can find some answers. Mr.

Martindale: In correspondence from an employee of Hope Centre Residential, the question was asked about salaries in Manitoba compared to other provinces. At the risk of the minister telling me that some other provinces pay less than Manitoba, I wonder if the minister could indicate maybe what our rank is in Canada? Are we near the top of wages or at the middle or near the bottom? Mrs. Mitchelson: We do not have any comparison to salaries in other provinces at all because the programs are so diverse, the

318 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 19 99 programs are so different province to province. I do know that other provinces do look to Manitoba. I mean, in many areas we have shown leadership, and we are further ahead and provide more services than many other provinces do provide. * (15 10 ) As a matter of fact, I know that my colleagues when I meet with them talk about programs like the wheelchair program in Manitoba that is not available or accessible in many, many other provinces.

When we talk about barriers to mobility, one of the ministers said: Well, you know, is Manitoba's wheelchair program a barrier to mobility because if they move to Nova Scotia they would not get that service? Manitoba does have a lot of good programs. We are innovative. We are ahead of many other provinces, and we are looked to as a province that does support our disabled community as one of the best provinces that provide that support. We do not have any inf ormation on specifics around what other provinces do.

Every province delivers its programs and services in such varied and different ways that there is not really the ability to make those kinds of comparisons. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I would like to quote from this same letter where the author says: We appreciated your response, but it was clearly not enough for any of us to plan our careers around. We value the work we do on behalf of the people with disabilities, and most of us would like to establish a career path in this field. Many of us are university or community college graduates.

Please give our agencies sufficient funding to keep us working for them and developing with them as we provide services to vulnerable people. I would like to ask the minister if she thinks that wages are sufficient that it actually attracts people so that they want to have a career working with vulnerable persons in the community. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I have not received any of those letters since the budget was announced and the increased funding was announced. But if he is asking whether 5 percent goes all the way to ensuring there is an appropriate salary, I would have to say no, it does not.

I will admit that. But I guess, again, I will go back to my honourable friend and say to him what in his mind is appropriate and what would he do if he were the Minister of Family Services to change what we have done? I know he voted for the budget this year, which included a 5 percent increase for these organizations and these agencies, and I have indicated that in the last two years it has been a step of good faith in recognizing that there are issues that need to be addressed around remuneration.

But I guess I would ask the question: would it be his party's policy to set wage levels for all salaries for all external agencies and organizations that are funded by government, and what would he think would be appropriate levels? I am saying that we are a government that has said we will continue to fund per diems or grants. but that agencies that are delivering services will have to manage those dollars.

We will continue, as the economy permits and as the tax base permits, to try to ensure that we are providing additional resources to address the salary issue, but agencies that deliver those services are going to have to determine what the appropriate salary level is. Maybe my honourable friend's party would have a different way of doing things and would commit to setting salary levels at a certain amount for every agency or organization that is funded by government to deliver service. I would be interested in hearing my honourable friend's comments around these issues. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Chairperson, it has been suggested to me by several people in dif ferent agencies that the staff in Family Services-! presume acting on behalf of the minister-are suggesting to these agencies that they have to look at the most cost-efficient way of delivering services. There is the feeling that there is pressure on them to get out of high-cost services, for example, support of employment programs, which could be described as high cost, because usually they have one-on-one staff ratios at least at the beginning of supportive employment, and

June 22, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 81 that if individuals were in sheltered workshops the staff ratios are much different, and therefore those programs are much cheaper to run and deliver. So I would like to ask the minister if she feels that this is either the direction that people are being pushed in the community and if so, if this is her policy. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, quite frankly, I have to tell my honourable friend that I have heard a lot of good comments about the staff in the department on the Community Living side and how they are certainly accessible and working very well with community, indicating that staff in our department have a very good track record and a very good reputation around supporting agencies and organizations and individuals. So I want to say that on the record, because I do believe that we do work with people, with organizations and with individuals to try to find the answers.

I want to indicate that my honourable friend is wrong, dead wrong in the comments and the-I am not sure what the word is I am looking for, sort of the-I would not really call them allegations, I guess, that he has made. They might be that we are not being sensitive towards individual needs, individual-supported employ ment and individualized planning. We are very much supportive of that, and we are not looking to take away anything. We do want to ensure, though, if a person does progress in a supported employment process and no longer needs a one on one, is there the ability to bring someone else in?

I mean, that only makes common sense to be looking at that. We work on an individual basis, individually client-focused. Each individual is different; their needs are different. We want to make sure that the dollars are going to the most appropriate places. And you know my honourable friend talks about being cost effective and efficient. I think the taxpayers of Manitoba want us to be cost-effective in our program delivery, and I think they want us to be working with families and be accountable.

I think families want to be accountable, and I think families want to make suggestions from time to time to government on how we might better be able to be more cost-effective. They do that, as a matter of fact. So we have to listen to that. So very often, I know back in my honourable friend's day and even when I first came into government, we have tried to change that. But government develops a program, a new initiative, and you have to fit into a certain mold in order to access some programming. I do not think that is most appropriate.

I think that there are always exceptions to the rule, and so we are trying to look at very much community focused support and service. We are trying to look at individual planning. *( 15 20) All of the families that I have worked with over the last number of years, we have tried to say: How can we do things better; what suggestions can you make to the government? For instance, I had some families with children with disabilities living in the community that were on my doorstep saying: You know, we need more; we need more appropriate service. So I started to ask some questions, and they were receiving respite.

There are certain rules and regulations around respite. Families would be allocated a certain number of respite hours, and they needed those hours at the time. But then they said to me, well, you know, we do not really need those respite hours right now because things are working fairly well, and we might need a little more money somewhere else to do something else, but we are afraid to give up our respite hours because we may never get them back again if we need them again. So therefore there were not respite hours for some other family that might need it.

So I said let us sit down and work together around how we can best manage the support and services. If you had the dollars available that might be provided for respite, could you use them for something else? And we have been able to find some solutions and some answers that would be more cost-effective and serve clients better. That is my belief and my philosophy. So, again, I would ask my honourable friend to maybe indicate whether he agrees with that direction or whether he feels, in order to get programming or support, you have got to fit into

318 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 19 99 a certain program. Very often we build programs, but we do not build programs that are appropriate to the supports and the needs of clients and individuals who need that support and service. We have tried to change that in the six years that I have been in the Department of Family Services. And we are working towards it. Have we fixed everything? No. But I guess that is the challenge, and that is why I remain so committed to this department and the programs and the people that we serve.

Things will change and will continue to evolve, and some of the supports and services that were put in place years ago are maybe not appropriate to today's families and today's needs. So we have to continue to try to do better. I think, generally speaking, that we have tried to make changes where changes are needed and brought to our attention as needed. So, I guess, with that, I certainly would like to hear my honourable friend's comments on what his approach might be on what he believes might be the right way to go.

It is always very easy to be critical of supports and services, but it is sometimes a little more difficult to provide constructive solutions to the issues. These are not easy issues that we deal with, and I know that, but you know it sometimes would be nice to see some acknowledgement for some of the things that have changed that have made a positive difference in people's lives and families' lives. Mr. Martindale: The minister is trying very hard to get me to answer questions, and I would do that on one condition, that is, if we switched places at the table, but we have no power to do that right now.

The minister wants to define this issue in terms of being cost-effective and efficient, but what we are really talking about here is a philosophical difference between some programs which are higher cost, such as supported employment, versus other programs, such as sheltered workshops, which I think can probably be delivered more cheaply. So I would like to push the minis ter a little bit harder and ask her again if she would categorically deny that there is pressure on organizations to change from programs which are high cost to programs which are of lower cost. Mrs.

Mitchelson: I am trying to keep this dialogue and discussion on a pretty even keel and even tone, but I would not say it is any sort of a philosophical difference. We have not changed our approach. Whether it is supported employment, it does not matter how costly the program is, I want to get the best bang for my buck within that program. I think that is what I believe in. I would hope my honourable friend would not want to waste tax dollars in saying the program is costly, but it does not matter how much it costs, you know, we do not care. There does not have to be any accountability around the programming.

I am saying if it is an expensive program, I want it to be managed with accountability and efficiency and be cost-eff ective even if it is a high-cost program. I want the same for a low cost program. I want our programs to be efficient and effective and serve the most clients that we can possibly serve. So I do not want to get into this being a philosophical discussion around whether we support supported employment or we support vocational rehab or shelter workshops or whatever. We support a broad range of services.

I want to make sure that every dollar that is spent is spent in the most appropriate fashion and that there is accountability around those dollars, but we support all that broad range of support and services. So there may be a philosophical difference in accountability between my honourable friend and myself. I want our tax dollars and the tax dollars of Manitobans to be accounted for in a manner that makes sure that the programs are the most efficient and effective, but providing the supports and services based on an individual client-centred plan. Mr.

Martindale: I am still not hearing the answer that I would like to hear or that I think organizations in the community would like to hear. That is that there is no pressure from the minister or her department or the staff to pressure people or persuade people that some of their programs are too costly and that if they would move in a different direction that they

June 22, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 318 3 could provide different programs at a lower cost. I have not heard the minister say that there is no such plan in her department. Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, again, Mr. Chair person, I am not sure what angle my honourable friend is coming from. I think that we look at a client-centred plan and process, whether it is working with an organization or working with families. Families seem to be wanting to move to community residences and vocational rehabilitation programs, and we have been supporting that. We are supporting what is best for individuals.

We have not denied anyone programming that sort of meets their individual plan. I am not sure, again, where my honourable friend is coming from. I am saying unequivocally that we are not changing the focus and we are not saying we are not paying for high-cost programs. I want efficiency, though, for the dolla rs that are being spent. If he feels diff erently, that is his prerogative, but I sense that the taxpayers of Manitoba want us to make sure that our programs are efficient and effective whether they are high-cost programs or low-cost programs. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, no one has a problem.

Certainly I support and taxpayers support getting the biggest bang for their buck, but the minister does not seem to want to answer my question. That is fine, there is no point beating a dead horse, so I will just move on. In a newsletter from I believe it is ACL Beausejour, I think this is actually a reprint of a letter to the Free Press. I would like to quote one paragraph and then ask some questions. The author says: Nine years ago, after the death of a client in a group home, the government initiated a review of issues concerning Manitoba's services to people with mental disabilities living in the community.

The government's consultant looked at issues such as minimum wage level salaries and the rapid staff turnover and nonexistent staff training programs that result from this. These conditions have not changed, despite the consultant's strong recommendations for change. Now, if it was nine years ago, it was before I became the critic. I am wondering if the minister can tell me which consultant's report, is that an accurate

summary, and were indeed those the recommendations? If the minister wants to take it as notice, that is fine, but if she could do some research and get back to me in a day or two, that would be good. * (1 530) Mrs. Mitchelson : We do not have a copy of that report with recommendations here, but we could certainly get it. It was several years ago, I think, as the result of a drowning of an individual in a group home, there were recommendations that were made.

They have been acted upon in a fairly significant way, where we now have certainly a program that has been developed at Red River Community College called the developm ental services worker training program. We have other ongoing in-servicing and training of staff that are working within the system right now. We contract with Red River and ACL to do training on nonviolence, crisis intervention, first aid. We have new licensing procedures that are in place. So there have been a lot of things that have been addressed that were recommended in that report. The wage issue is an ongoing issue. Mr.

Martindale: I thank the minister for that answer and for getting me a copy of the consultant's report. I have received quite a few letters, as has the minister, from Eastside Thames day program, both from staff and parents. I am wondering if the minister could bring me up to date on their funding problems, which they describe as a funding crisis. It might save some questions if the minister could give me a general update on how they are doing since they began writing letters to the minister. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, this is one of the organizations that, among other things, supported employment programming, day programming with those with severe disabilities, and in many instances, it is sort of a one-on-one support program for work experience. I would believe that that letter probably came before the

318 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 19 99 budget was introduced. So the 5 percent would have helped somewhat, but it certainly would not go all the way to addressing the issues that have been raised by Eastside Thames. We are working with them and will continue to work with them. My understanding is we are fairly close to a service and purchase agreement with them, but there are some issues that still continue to need to be addressed.

I am not sure that our funding model will provide all of the resources that they would like in order to deliver the programs that they are contemplating for all of the individuals that they serve. We from time to time do adjust per diems. think one of the specific issues with Eastside Thames was some transportation costs, and I think we have tried to address that issue with them. As I indicated earlier, we are trying to provide support and service to as many individuals as we possibly can. We do know that these are very costly programs.

We support those programs, but we cannot always provide the complete amount that the agency would like to see for each individual circumstance. * (1 540) Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, in the letters that I received, which are dated in January, I believe, most of them, and the letters that the minister received as well, there is reference to their transportation problems, which the minister briefly touched on. In the letters, someone mentioned that they were in a deficit position in their transportation budget.

I wonder if the minister can tell me how their transportation budgeting problems were solved, if indeed they were. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, it is my understand ing that Eastside Thames was over their transportation budget primarily because of the nature of the programs that they are running and the excessively large amount of trans portation that was required to move people from place to place during the day. We have been working with them, and I think we have agreed to give them some additional support for exceptional circumstances around their trans portation requirements. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Chairperson, I guess since these letters are from employees and from parents and most of them mention wages and ability to keep staff, we might as well get into that issue now. If I could summarize all of the letters here-and certainly I will refer to more of them-the one common theme is that 5 percent this year is not going to solve their funding problems, although most of the letters were written before this year's budget, but I think they anticipated another 5 percent increase. So the letters refer to all kinds of problems that their lack of funding contributes to.

For example, employees that have two and three jobs in addition to being employed by organizations like Eastside Thames, but other organizations as well, the inabil ity to attract and keep good staff, parents concerned about continuity of staff because it is their child ren that are being cared for, and they are not happy with the high turnover of staff. I am sure the minister is familiar with all of these issues, and so I am wondering what she has to say to the parents and to the staff about the underfund ing.

In fact, one of the newer issues that came up-and I am sure the minister would like to wax eloquent about this-is that the so-called booming economy and the increase in the minimum wage is causing a new problem in attracting and keeping qualified staff. That is that the difference between the minimum wage and what the starting wage is for many of these organizations is very small, in fact, about 50 cents an hour or a little bit higher, and the fact that people can leave and get better-paying jobs, which I suppose is different now than it was during the recession of the early 19 90s.

If jobs are hard to get, then people are going to stay longer because they do not have alternatives in the marketplace or the workplace. They are going to stay at poor-paying jobs because there are not alternatives out there, but once there are alternatives and those alternatives pay higher wages, the staff are gone. For example, I had an individual who wrote to me, who said: In the two years I have been working at my current place of employment-and this is a residential home for women with developme ntal disabili ties-we have experienced almost a complete staff turnover in two years. Later on, I

June 22, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 318 5 guess I will get into a very good and detailed brief that was submitted to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and to the minister and copied to us, comparing starting wages in a number of different, very similar occupations. But I wonder if the minister would like to respond to me and to these individuals and their boards, as well as the employees, about the difficulties that the current wages are posing for the employees, the boards and for the clients that they are trying to serve. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, I think I have tried to respond to part of this before in my earlier comments today, but I will continue by trying to indicate to my honourable friend and helping him understand that I realize the significance of the issue.

These letters were written before the budget, and I think they were written to try to ensure that the 5 percent increase that they had asked for last year was indeed-they actually asked for three 5 percent increases, one last year, one this year and one next year, and I think the letters were written again in an effort to try to ensure that that money would be there and available and approved in this year's budget.

I have responded to absolutely every letter that I have received as a result of the budget and the announcement of the 5 percent increase and have indicated very clearly that we will continue as resources permit to look at the issues of the funding of these agencies. A very big issue. I am pleased to see that my honourable friend supported our budget and voted for the increases that were provided. If he had had a significant concern as a result of the correspon dence that he received, I am sure that he would not have supported the budget, but he did.

He did vote for it, and he probably did recognize and realize that we were going and doing what we could this year to try to address the circum stances and the situations that were alluded to in the letters that again I repeat I have responded to. Now, again, the question becomes, we are not going to set salaries for external agencies. We are going to listen certainly to what they have to say around our grant support and funding, but we are a government that will not set salaries for every agency that provides service and support. Again.

I have to ask my honourable friend if that is their party's policy that they would set salaries. If they should set salaries, my question would be to him: what would be the appropriate salary that they would set for this area of government support and funding? Because we do provide support to external agencies. I could probably go back and count this afternoon how many times I have said that we have started to address the issue by giving additional grant support in the amount that we felt we could accomplish and do this year. We will continue year after year, as resources permit, to try to address the issue.

But my question would be what does he feel is an adequate salary or support? I know that his party did support the budget, which gave a 5 percent increase, and I am thankful for that, but, again, I have to say if he felt that was inadequate then it would have been his recommendation that another number or another amount be provided. I guess that probably should have been raised in an amendment or a vote of nonconfidence in our government's budget, but that was not the case. * (1 550) I know my honourable friend thinks I am fishing, but reality is you cannot have it both ways in opposition.

You can sit and be critical and say that government should provide more, but then you can vote for a budget that provides a certain amount, and you do not have to indicate what you might do because there is no accountability in opposition. I mean, I guess in this instance, in this year, the opposition has it three ways. They can be critical but they can support our budget, but they also do not have to tell us what they might do differently.

So, you know, I am sitting here struggling right now and indicate that, again, this is the one area within my department and in many instances across government through very difficult times and difficult circumstances and recessions that has received additional support year after year because there are more people who need support and service. I have been able to make that case in the six years that I have been Mini ster of Family Services, and I will continue to make that case. I will continue to try

318 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 19 99 to address the issues of salaries and workload and recruitment and retainment of staff. I am not going to be able to fix that in one budget, but I think that our government has made a signif icant step forward in increasing the grant support by 5 percent both last year and this year on the residential side. Mr. Martindale: The minister mentioned she had written a reply to everyone who corresponded with her, and I am wondering if she would be willing to table a copy of that correspondence.

I presume that the letters were all quite similar, and if she would like to white out the addressee, that would be fine, but I would be interested in getting a copy of the minister's correspondence. Also, the discussions that I have had with people since the budget suggests to me that they are saying that 5 percent just does not do it, and I am wondering if the minister has had any correspondence or if people in her department have had any correspondence or contact with people providing services since the budget which would offer a similar analys is. Mrs.

Mitchelson: No, I have not received any correspondence that would indicate that. I have never said that 5 percent has fixed the circumstance. I do not think my honourable friend can say that I have said that 5 percent fixes things. I have said that 5 percent goes some way to try to address the issues, and I have indicated that as resources permit in years to come, we will continue to try to address the issue. So I do not want my honourable friend to put anything on the record or suggest even that I have said we fixed the problems with a 5 percent increase.

I do want to indicate that the only correspondence I have received is a letter from ACL Steinbach that has acknowledged our funding increases and that the additional funding will give them the opportunity to begin recovery of wage levels for front-line staff to address long-term operational deficits and to consider additional supports for the people we serve. So it is a thank you letter. It says thank you. My concern and my commitment, what they are saying is much appreciated. So that is the only letter I have received. I have indicated very clearly that there is an ongoing issue in this area.

We are going to continue to try to address it in successive budgets as resources permit and as we have the ability to do it. But, again, I want to say if my honourable friend has some suggestions or ideas on what might fix the problem, I would certainly like to hear those, because I ask that question of every group and organization I meet with. I cannot find the solutions or develop the answers unless I know what the issues are and unless I get suggestions on how we can better serve individuals through our progra mming.

Estimates usually is a time for some debate and dialogue, and I recall from time to time suggestions and ideas being put on the record on how we might better deliver service or do things differently. So I would encourage my honourable friend to comment and make some suggestions. You know. quite frankly, it does not matter where the suggestion comes from if it is a good one. Very often I try to follow up. Mr. Martindale: One of the parents who wrote to me who has a child in Eastside Thames said that a proposed solution is to cut the hours of programming for participants living at home to three hours per day.

I am wondering if that actually happened or not and if the increased funding meant that solutions like that did not have to be considered or implemented. Mrs. Mitchelson: I know that, when an organization that receives a certain amount of grant funding comes to a point within their budget year where they are having difficulty meeting that budget or they are running into deficits, we sit down and work with those agencies and organizations to see what we might be able to do to help them get through the year without running a deficit. There might be suggestions or ideas that are tossed around or looked at.

In the instance of where we are providing one-on-one support for someone on a full- day basis, would an option be to look at one on-one support for an hour less or two hours less

June 22, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 318 7 a day to see if they could stay within their budget? These are suggestions and ideas. They are all talked through and they are all looked at, but ultimately it is up to the agency to determine what they are going to do to try to meet or live within their budget. There is responsibility, an onus on organizations too to live within their means and provide the supports and services to the cl ients that they serve within their budget all ocation.

So it is important that we work with them and all kinds of suggestions and ideas are tossed around, and ultimately they make the decision on what they can do or what they choose to do in order to try to live within the all ocation that they have been given. I do know that they were given an extra 5 percent this year. Mr. Martindale: I have received quite a bit of correspondence from Gimli, and I will have to give a copy of this to Hansard because this could be Icela ndic. I am not sure, but I will try to pronounce it anyway. It is from Heima Er Best Inc. in Gimli.

This organization has provided a very good brief, which was submitted to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the minister dated December 19 98. The topic is the chronic under funding crisis to agencies serving the mentally disabled in Manitoba. Maybe the first issue that I will raise is one that the minister has already mentioned in passing, and that is service contract agreements. I wonder if the minister could basically give me some background information on what service contract agreements are or maybe they were referring to purchase service agreements. I am not sure of the exact terminology here. * (1 600) Mrs.

Mitchelson: Right throughout the Department of Family Services we have many service purchase agreements. Basically, that is a contract, if you will, between an organization and government on what services we will purchase from them at what amount. It is a template that we have, and then it is adjusted with an appendix for each organization. We negotiate specifics with each organization that are put into that appendix. It works fairly well. Ultimately, it is another accountabil ity mechanism.

It is holding government account able for funding organizations and holding organizations accountable to provide the service that we are funding them to provide. It goes right throughout our department. We do that with most of the organizations or agencies that we fund. Mr. Martindale: One of the concerns raised by this organization is, and I guess I will quote from their brief where they say: "Boards are being asked to sign Service Contract Agreements with the province without the funding crisis being addressed. Most agencies probably cannot afford to hire a lawyer to even review this legal document.

Those that do have the financial resources to do so are advised by their legal counsel that the contract is very one sided in favour of government and that there is no appeal process written in as there is in most contracts." I am wondering if the minister agrees with this analysis that they are so badly unde rfunded they cannot afford to hire a lawyer to reveal it, and, secondly, if there is an appeal process. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, when we originally started doing service and funding agreements with our agencies, yes, the agencies as an association did hire a lawyer and worked with us to develop a template and that was the template for the agreement. There is no need or necessity to have a lawyer to do the appendix, so we do not require anyone to have a lawyer to do the appendix to see what we are purchasing what kinds of service. We are purchasing from individual organizations, so there is not that requirement.

Many organizations do have legal services and legal advice, and they might from time to time use that lawyer, but there is no requirement. We do not force an appendix or a service and funding agreement on agencies; we work with them. This is a two-way street. I mean, we are not dictating from high what they will deliver. We work with them to see what they want to deliver and how we can fund them to deliver those services, so it is a two-way street. Many agencies really appreciate having a service and funding agreement, because it gives them a long-term stability to the kinds of service

31 88 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 19 99 that we will probably purchase from them into the future, so it gives them some stability around the funding arrangements. I am told that many of the smaller agencies we do not have service and funding agreements with. It is not necessa ry, but probably a third of the organizations in this area would have service and purchase agree ments. Many of them are the larger organiza tions which, of course, would receive the lion's share of funding for programming, so it is accountability.

It is an accountability mechanism, and it does from time to time certainly hold government accountable for the amount of support. It is written in stone that we are going to support certain activities undertaken by an agency, but it does spell out too what we are funding that agency for. So from time to time, agencies will expand their mandate or move into areas of other support, but that does not necessarily mean then we are obligated to fund something that they choose to support in a different area.

We are basically saying that these are the kinds of services we are purchasing from you, and we are funding those services accordingly. So it does give a level of comfort to both sides, to government and to the agency, that this is the kind of service government is prepared to fund. This is the kind of service an agency is prepared to provide to clients. So, as I said, it is a two way street. It is not something that we force upon agencies, but we work with them. This is a co-operative approach trying to work together to ensure that the taxpayers are buying from agencies that support taxpayers that are in need.

Mr. Martindale: Since this brief suggested that there should be an appeal mechanism, I am wondering if it is possible to appeal decisions under the Social Services Advisory Committee. Mrs. Mitchelson: There is not an appeal process for the amount of funding we might give an organization or an agency. I mean, budgets are set. We work with agencies and organiza tions to develop a service and funding agree ment, but once we come to that agreement there is no appeal mechanism. There is a dispute resolution procedure that can be undertaken, and that is through discussion.

There is not any appeal ultimately on, you know-we have X number of dollars to provide the service. We work with agencies and there is give and take in the service purchase agreements, but ultimately we have to come to a decision on what is the appropriate amount of funding. Mr. Martindale: I would like to go into some more issues in this brief, but I hardly know where to start, because there are so many issues and it is so detailed. But maybe I will just read some of the headings before I get into some of the issues.

Some of the headings are salary comparisons; inadequate and obsolete universal rate structure; recruitment is very limited and turnover is high; no financial incentives after training to stay in the field; effects on our clientele; ef fects on families; effects on our personnel; effects on volunteer board members; and eff ects to the community. * (1610 ) Perhaps I will start with the salary comparisons, because they submitted a very interesting chart.

In the text of the brief, it says starting wage is $6.40 or $6.50 per hour, while starting wage as a teacher aide is $1 1. 01 per hour or a personal care aide at $1 0.83 per hour. Our staff working in group homes have a lot of responsibility on a daily basis.

In the chart, it compares this group home in Gimli with Evergreen School Division special needs teaching assistant; personal care aides in Betel Home Foundation, Gimli; Manitoba Health home care worker in Gimli; Selkirk Mental Health Centre support service worker and psychiatric nursing assistant; Manitoba Develop mental Centre worker, Portage Ia Prairie; and Marymound residential youth worker in Winnipeg, two categories actually, youth care worker without certificate and certified youth care worker. Of course, all of them are higher and all of them are quite a bit higher.

I am wondering what advice the minister has for these group homes in Gimli in terms of keeping workers when with very similar qualifications, maybe in some cases even lesser qualifications, they can go to other places of employment for higher wages and, in some cases, substantially higher wages.

June 22, 19 99 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 318 9 Mrs. Mitchelson: Again I think these are somewhat redundant comments and questions from my honourable friend. But I will take the �ime to answer again, because I think it is really tmportant that my honourable friend understand that we know there is an issue around salaries for people who work in the community with those with mental disabilities. I said that at the start of my comments today, and I will say it again. We know that there are issues.

That is exactly why, when we were not giving significant increases in other areas of support, we gave a 5 percent increase last year and another 5 percent increase this year to residential services for those with mental disabilities and their operating grants. It still is not going to pay the employees a fortune. I admit that. It is going to make a small increase in the ability to support wages for those working within the field. We do have an issue of recruitment and retainment of staff.

I have said probably on at least three occasions today that as resources permit year after year, we are going to have to continue to try to address this issue. We did what we could in last year's budget with a 5 percent increase in operating grants, and we did what we could in this year's budget with a 5 percent increase in operating grants plus a significant, millions of dol lars to try to support more people living in the community and community residences in day programming and respite, in crisis stabilization.

So really we have had to balance and look at trying to ensure that we serve as many people as possible, recognizing that we are going to have to address the salary issues. So my honourable friend again is reading from a proposal. I do not know what the date of that proposal is. Is it before the budget or- Mr. Martindale: December '98. Mrs. Mitchelson: December '98. So this is a proposal or a brief that was sent in prior to the budget. We are continuing to try to address the issues. Now, again, I have to say to my honourable friend he supported our budget with the 5 percent increase in support.

Now, if he really felt that he had a better solution or other ideas or suggestions, I am sure that he would have brought in an amendment that would have tried to defeat the budget and do something differently. But, again, I am saying that it is fine sometimes in opposition, and this year the NDP in opposition has it three ways, not only two ways: (1) because they can be critical, (2) but they can vote for the budget, and, (3) because it is an election year. I have asked several times today for my honourable friend to give me some suggestions or ideas on what he might do differently.

Well, he is indicating that there are T?any, many concerns, and I have told him many times today that I understand and know and recognize there are concerns in this area. These are concerns and issues that are not going to go away, because we have more mentally disabled population, and that number is going to continue to grow. It is not going to get less. Well, I know, it is going to grow because we are now today keeping babies alive at birth that woul? never live before, and they have multiple handtcaps and disabilities in some instances.

Also, with new technology at the far end we are keeping people alive longer that have' mental disa� ilities. So we have an issue that society, Manitoba, Canadians, around the world are going to have to deal with year after year. There is going to be increasing pressure for additional support and services not only for more people that need to be served but to ensure that we pay adequate salaries, so that people will stay in that field.

I have to say that I recognize, too, that there is a real significant issue here, because many of the people that provided support in this field or this area in the past have been women. Women who maybe were the second income earner in a family, who maybe worked on a part-time basis from time to time. We are seeing now that women, because they have more equal opportunity, are choosing other professions other than caregivers. They are choosing professions �hat will lead them to higher salaries and higher mcomes.

V:e very often now have two people workmg or we have a single-pa rent family that has to earn a living to support her children his or her children, I should not say hers nece�sarily,

31 90 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 19 99 but the issue has become extremely complex. So the question for me is: are people going to want to go into this field into the future, and what is it going to take to recruit and retain them? I do not have the answers to that today, but I think that we are facing some significant challenges. I know I am not going to be in government forever. We may be elected forever as a Con servative Party, but I will not be here forever. I will not be in this portfolio forever, but I will also not be around.

I want to say that long after I am gone, these issues and these pressures are going to continue to be there. There are no easy answers. That is why I have said many times today that if my honourable friend has some suggestions or ideas, Estimates is certainly the time and gives us the opportunity to talk about these issues and to see whether there might be something that he would have to offer. Again, I say it is very easy to be critical, but it is easy to be critical-but then to support a budget, on the other hand not have any ideas on how to fix the issues that he has criticized.

I will leave it at that for now and see whether, again, I might convince my honourable friend that we might like to hear some of his enl ightened solutions to some of these issues. I do not ever want to make light of these issues, because I want to tell you that year after year, even in times when government was reducing funding, I was able to convince my collea gues that we needed additional support for additional services in this area.

I am actually proud of that achievement because I think that in this area, certainly the taxpayers of Manitoba believe that we need to support those who cannot support themselves. I have been able to make that case, and I will continue to make that case although we have not addressed all of the issues around the support services that need to be provided. But it will be an ever-increasing demand on tax resources for generations to come, I would believe. * (1 620) Mr.

Martindale: would like to ask the minister if, and this is a very big if, your government is re-elected, are you on track for a 5 percent increase in this area next year? Mrs. Mitchelson: I cannot make that absolute commitment here today.

You know, if the economy continues to do the way it is doing, if we continue to have more tax resources, if we are able to continue, and which we will continue, to pay down our debt, we will be able to use the money that we pay on interest for social programming, and I have to indicate that we have lived up to-I mean, there was a request two years ago that we would provide 5 percent per year over three years in this area. We committed 5 percent last year; we committed another 5 percent this year.

So I think our track record has been consistent, and we have dealt with the issues in good faith, but I cannot make a commitment today to next year's budget or next year's funding. It would be wonderful if things were doing so well that we could commit more than 5 percent, but as I said, I cannot make that commitment, and no government and no minister does have the ability to make that commitment. Mr. Martindale: I am glad that the minister mentioned women. I would like to read a paragraph from this excellent brief under the

section Effects on Our Personnel. It says, and I quote: "All of our staff are women. A glance at poverty statistics quickly reveals that women and their families suffer emotional and physical consequences when their work is undervalued and under paid, as it is in our field. Many of our staff at Heima Er Best are sole income earners. Some are single mothers trying to raise two or more child ren on this pathetic wage. Work hours in residential services are undesirable, after 4 p.m. on weekdays and overnight until 8 a.m. and all weekend hours. The staff have no life insurance, disability or other medical benefits and no pension pla ns. Many of our staff struggle to work two or three jobs

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-48
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 48.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d03c5692461e52f5dd1d22c4600060db066a90be

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