Manitoba Hansard — 13 June 1994 (Sitting 46A, 35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-46a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session· Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker Vol. XLID No. 46A • 1:30 p.m., Monday, June 13, 1994 JSSN OS42-S492

NAME ASHTON, Steve BARRE'IT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERnLI, Marianne CHOMIAK. Dave CUMMIN GS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry,Hon. ERNST, fun, Hon. EVANS,Clif EVANS,Leonard S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon.

FRIESEN, Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty -Fifth Legis lature Members, Constituencies and PoUtical AfftUation CONS'ITI'UENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.Rose Seine River Roblin-Rossell Selkirlc Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel StJames Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley GAUDRY, Neil GIILESHAMMER. Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis St. Boniface Minnedosa Cescentwood Gimli HELWER, Edward R. HICKES, George KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH,Gord MALOWAY, fun MANNESS, Clayton, Hon.

MARTINDALE, Doug McALPlNE, Gerry McCORMICK, Norma Mc�,James,Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZN1K., Darre n, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Point Douglas The Map les Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St.

Johns Elmwood Morris Bwrow s Sturgeon Creek Osborne Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossmee Kirldield PIUk FlinFlon La Veendrye Fort Garry Swan River PARTY. NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

3334 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday,June13,1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS RO�PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Bon. Gerald Ducharme (Min ister of Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Supplement ary Information for Legisla tive Review 19 94.:.95 for Government Services and also for the Manitoba Seni ors Directorate. INT RODUCTION OF Bll.. LS Bi11 24-The Waste Reduction and Prev entio n Amendment Act Bon. Glen Cu mmings (Min ister of Environmen t): Mr. Speaker, I move , seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that leave be given to introdu ce Bill 24, The Waste Reduction and Prevention Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia reduction du volume et de Ia production des WSchets), and that the same now be received and read a first time . His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table his message as well. Motion agreed to. Introd uction of Guests Mr. Speaker : Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the atte ntion of honourable members to the galle ry, where we have with us this afternoon from the Tyndall Park School twenty-five Grade 4 students under the direction of Mr. Colin Stark.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). Also, from John Henderson Junior High, we have seven Grade 7 stud ents . This school is located in the con stituency of the honourable member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenber g). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. • (13 35) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Immigra nt Investor Fund Government Ac tion Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposi tion) : Mr.

Spea ker, in 19 89, we asked the provincial government to monitor the investments of people involved in the Immi grant Investor Fund, on November 8, 19 89. We further asked the government to prote ct Manitoba ' s reputation in terms of investors from Asia on April 29, 1991, when the Premier (Mr. Filmon) talked about how Manitoba has one of the best records with respect to ens uring that investments of immi grant investors are put in secure vehicles and secure investment opportunities. Mr.

Speaker, today , investors from Asia are quite concerned and quite disappointed in terms of Canada and Canadian reputation in terms of the security of their investment, an issue we have raised with the provincial government for the last five years. This is very important for Manitoba, and I am sure the Premier feels it is important, as well, because we all want to see Manitoba's reputation be impeccable and Canada's reputation be impeccable to investors all over the world. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) , what action is this government taking to restore the integrity of our investments in Manitoba and in Canada for the investors here today? Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and To urism) : Mr. Speaker, first of all, it was this government that took the lead nationally

3335 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 1994 to call for an investigation as to. the activities of the Immigrant Investor Program, which is a federal government program. That has to be made clear. We have further communicated with the federal minister. I have, by letter, written to the federal minister asking not to release the funds. We have put three conditions forward, Mr. Speaker, that ask for a court-directed solution to this probl em.

We have asked for representation, for the investors to be on the boani of directors, and we have asked for a full disclosure or inquiry as to how the previous funds have been spent. Those are the three conditions we have asked for. They have not been met, and we have further indicated to the trust company our concerns and further advanced our conditions to them. I believe we have done everything possible to protect the integrity of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, but also to give some direction to the federal government, which, by the way, did not heed our advice. Mr. Doer: I want to table a letter.

When we asked this question on May 16 , Mr. Speaker, the government indicated they would be contacting the federal government. This is a letter dated June 1, 19 94, indicating that, in fact, the fe deral government had approved the reprise on these funds, and the letter goes on to say that there is a request to downsize one of the pro jects affected by the funds. I would li ke to ask the government, have they received any response from the letter they have written to the fe deral government? Will the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) be raising this with the Prime Minister, beca use this is a very important inte rnational issue in terms of investment, and, Mr. Speaker, can the government table any response they have had from the fe deral government on this issue of integrity in investment in Canada and in the province of Manitoba? Mr. Downey: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have, in fact, written a letter to the federal minister on April 25. I have a repl y of May 13 that I am prepared to make available to the members. I guess my concern is the fact that they did not deal with the three conditions which we had asked them to deal with.

They are basing their deci sion on the fact that there had been an RCMP inv estigation which, in fact, did not deal with the matters we had raised with them . So, again, we are still ofthe same position. Our position has not changed, but that is not being heeded by the fe deral government. •

(1340) Mr. Doer: Mr. Spea ker, the provincial government must accept any proposals for the Immigrant Investor Fund prior to approval being ultimately given by the fe deral government . We have been raising this issue for the last five years, and, of course , the government did take action, we think very late in the game, with the investigation by Mr. Crewson in 1991-92. Mr. Speaker, investors today are talking about the fact that they trusted Canada, they trusted Manitoba, in terms of their investments and the inte grity of their inv estments.

This marlcet in Asia and all investors across the world are very important to Canada and to our future. I would like to ask the government, what action have they taken and what information have they directly provided to the investors in Manitoba pro jects under the Immigrant Investor Fund? Have they been in contact with the investors to let them know our concerns pro vincially, to let them know the co ncerns we have and the action we will take to restore the in tegrity of inve stments in the province of Manitoba? Mr. Downey: First of all, Mr.

Speaker, we have to remind the memb er that this is a federal go ver nment program . Se condly, it is my understanding that his colleague, the former minister, Mr. Mackling, took it out from under the review of the Securities Commission, passed a regulation specifically removing it from the authority of the Securities Commissi on. I can tell you, as well, Mr. Speaker, it was this government, this Minister of Finance (Mr. Stef anson) currently, who was the Minister of Industry, Trade and Touri sm, and this Premier

June 13, 199 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3336 (Mr. Fi lmon) who called upon an inquiry to have a special audit of the programs in place. There was not one other province in Canada that did it The fed eral govemment did not do it, even though, in opposition, the member, Mr. Axworthy, call ed for an inve stigation. We now have the Hansard of him calling for it, and I will be providing that inf oiDlation. As well as his requesting a full- blown in vestigation, we would like to know what his position is today on it, Mr. Speaker, because that has not happene d.

They have moved contrary to the wishes of the Province of Manitoba. We are concerned about the reputation of Manitoba, and we do believe it is a good place to invest. Physiotherapy Services Reduced Workweek Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kll donan) : Mr.

Speaker, last week in the House, we asked the minister about the effects of govemm ent cutbacks and Bill 22 on therapy services to victims of stroke , arthritis, et cetera, and to people who could not afford a delay in their treaunent Can the minister today advise the House what provisions have been put in place in order to ensure that individuals who require therapy will not have unnecess ary or needless delays as a result of govemment cutbacks and Bill 22? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Mr. Spe aker, the process of discussing with the hospitals their plans is ongoing.

To the honourable member's credit, however, the issue he raised last week was fe lt by myself to be of suf fi cient importance that I raised the issue with the facilities with which we are working, as well, to e nsure that our bottom line of patient care is not impacted in a negative way. So the honourable member's raising of the issue of stroke victims last week was helpful to us, and I thank the honourable member. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the minister for that response , and maybe the minister can enlighten me as to what arran gements are being put in place for patients who require this kind of therapy , who attend the Seven Oaks Day Hospital, who have been advised by the day hospital it will be closing on Fr iday, June 24; Friday , July 8; Monday, July 18 ; Monday, July 25; Fr iday, August 12; Monday, August 22 and Fr iday, September 9.

What arran gements are being put in place for individuals who require therapy , stro ke victims and others, when that day hospital will now be closed because of the constraints put on the hospital by the govemment? Mr. McCrae: I do not know if the arran gements the honourable member is talking about have to do with Seven Oaks' response to the Bill 22 matter. If it does, I will raise that issue with Seven Oaks, as well. Mr. Chomiak : Mr.

Spe aker, my final supplementary to the minister is, at that time , if, in fact, they are going to go ahead and close , as they have indicated in the letter, the day hospital for those days, can the minister ensur e that the govemment will provide alternative therapies and treaunent such as some kind of expanded home care to these individuals, stroke victims, arthritis vict i ms, and othe rs who require ongoing treatment? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, I told the honourable member and I have told him repeatedly that patient care is not to be impacted in a negative way.

The honourable member has asked me about Seven Oaks. I said I would raise the matter with Seven Oaks to find out what the impact will be on patients . It would be inte resting, though, to know if the honourable member could tell us what inquiries were made at Brandon General Hospital in 1987 when, for the first time, 42 beds were closed by the previous government in Manitoba without any questions aske d-a New Democratic govemment. The honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) sat around that table that made that decision.

Once the decision was made, he went into hiding, avoiding any questions from his constituents. • (13 45)

3337 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 19 94 Education System Reform Coosultation-Students Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education and Training. I want to table a copy of the document called Grade 12 (Senior 4) Questionnaire, which has been sent around the province to various schools for Grade 12 students to complete as part of the education reform process .

I want to start by saying that we fully supp ort the move to include students in the consultation process and are very pleased to see the minister has come forward with some form of consultation with the students . My question for the minister, however, given that the request was put to him by my colleague the member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) over a month ago to bring the students into the process, are the results-this question naire only went out last week-going to be back and tabulated and gone through by his department in time to include the responses from this very important group of people in deciding what educa tion reform should be? Are they going to be incotpOrated into the blueprint itself, which the minister has repeatedly said will be coming forward before the end of the month? Bon. Clayton Mann ess (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his complimentary tone with respect to the question.

I want him to rest assured that this was in the works long bef ore the subject was broached by the member for Inkster. The question is well put I would indicate to the member that I do not know whether or not we can do a final collation of results coming forward from that survey before the blueprint is released, but I want to indicate fully, Mr. Speaker, there will be an awful lot of wotk to do on ed ref orm and on putting into place the final writing around that blueprint long after it is released in due course.

I would think at that time, that information will be more aptly directed towards the completion of the writing of the report. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, again for the same minister, we have been advised by some of the schools that these were couriered to the schools, and it was asked that the results be couriered back to the government. However, we also spoke to some schools that indicated they had not received them. I wanted to ask the minister for an assurance. I assume that these are going to all schools, and perhaps the minister can clarify that.

If not, how were the schools chosen that these were going to go to? Secondly, is Grade 12 the only grade level that is going to be surveyed in this fas hion? Mr. Manness: Yes , it is the graduating class, but more importantly, we have tried to bring into place a scientif ic sur vey me thod, whereby fair representation across all of our student body has been asked to fill in the survey. Mr. Edwar ds: Finally then for the minister, rather than surveying all students, it is obviously being done on a rand om basis and perhaps on quite acceptable criteria.

However, I would ask the minister if be is prepared to table the criteria upon which certain schools were selected so that all members might be assured that the sample is, in fact, representative and, in fact, we have the benefit of across-the province knowledge of what students are looking for in their education system? Mr. Manness : Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice, and I will endeavour to try and provide more inf ormation with respect to the issue. • (1 350) Education System Guidance Counselling Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson) : While we are on the theme of listening to youth, I would like to ask some questions of the Minister of Education. Statistics show that teen suicide is up by 300 percent in the last 15 years, and it is the second leading cause of death, second only to auto accidents . I was concerned today by news reports recommending that reports of youth in crisis go to school counsel lors, rather than to Child and Family

June 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3338 Services, where the counse llors are then, in tum, required to report them. I would like to ask the Minister of Education the number of school counselling positions in Mani toba that have been eliminated in schools under this gove rmnent in the last four years, and if we are not in a situation now where we do not have the personnel- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member lias put her question. Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training) : Mr. Spe aker, I do not know what point the member was rea lly trying to make.

Certainly, there have been changes with respect to funding and some student support services. What we have asked jurisdi ctions, school boards to do, is to share amongst themselves the level of support that the government provides by way of funding. As the member is fully well aware, we brought into place three years ago a suicide crisis line under the call of the Department ofHealth. We are trying to do what we can within this area, this emerging concern area to all of society. Ms.

Cerilli: The point I am trying to make is, I do not think we have the resources in the schools any more, perhaps we never did, to deal with the amount of crisis that is out there . I would like to ask the government if they have any recommendations for how schools can deal with this overburden on the personnel in the schools, with the number of children who are in crisis due to family poverty and unempl oyment, family violen ce, death and drugs in families and teen pregnancy. These are some of the problems I think that are leading to teenage suicide.

I would like some recommendations from this government for schools as to how they can deal with these prob lems. Mr. Manness: What we know for sure, Mr. Spe aker, is that after 25 years of trying to deal with all of the problems in public schools, we are not getting very far. We are not getting very well along, and so maybe it is time to rethink what it is we are trying to do within our public schools , and that is the essence of ed reform that we will be bringing forward. Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, the government must realize that eliminating res ources- Mr. Speaker : Order, please.

This is not a time for debate . Ms. Cerilli: I would like to ask the minister, how will this government provide support to schools that are dealing with suicide when they have eliminated the school counsellor consultant in the Department of Education who was there to provide the program support? How is that support now going to be provided to schools in Manitoba? Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Spe aker, in keeping with the seriousness of the questio n--I did not want to give a fiscal response to this , but the member keeps repeating the same garbage over and over again. In fact- [inter ject ion] That is right, Mr.

Speaker, the garbage dealing with the fiscal reality- 18 .7 percent directed towards education today, as compared to 17.2 when we came into government. That is the garbage to which- Mr. Speaker : Order, ple ase. Point of Order Ms. Cerilli: On a point of order, Mr. Spe aker, I think that the ministe r's use of the word "garbage" in ref erence to my question is completely inappropriate and not parliamentary, and I would ask that he withdraw that remarlc . Mr. Speaker : Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. That is a disput� Mr.

Mannes s: On the sa me point of order, garbage is too nice a word for that. Mr. Speaker : There is no point of order. Education System Reform Consultation-Students Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Spea ker, my question is for the Minis ter of Education. In the student survey that was put out, the minister makes reference to a student behaviour code. If we go back to the high school commission

3339 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 1994 review, where there was a request in tenns of rules governing a learning environment-in fa ct, some province s, for examp le, the Province of New Brunswick has brought in a provincial code of conduct or behaviour for schools . My qu estion to the minister is, is this government looking at bringing in a province-wide code of conduct or behaviour for Manitoba schools? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Educatio n and Training): Mr. Speaker, it seems the member for Inkster is trying to scoop the announcement with respect to ed ref orm .

I would say to him that the greater focus will be within the school community, and indeed, the school community will decide what code of conduct it would wish to apply to itself. In our view, that would probably be a preferred course of action. I have seen some of the provincial codes of behaviour, and they are extremely wide. They are not an awful lot different from not having a code at all. Consequently, I would think it might be better to focus on within the school community and let them determine what code of behaviour they want to have for themselves. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Speaker, allow me to be very clear using an example . We in the Liberal Party believe that, as a student , you should not be able to hit a teacher- Mr. Speaker : Order, please. This is not a time for debate. The honourable member for Inkster, with your question, sir. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Education is, if a student hits a teacher, will the minister agree that this is wrong and provide a basic code of conduct that would allow a very strong direction to all the student bodie s across the province of Manitoba and say so in a provincial code? Mr.

Manness: I ha ve been listening to my colleague the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) day after day trying to get a view from the Liberal Party of where they stand on violence , Mr. Speaker -the soft approach. So here , Mr. Speaker, we finally have the Liberals saying they do not want the teacher to be hit. Is that not a revelation? Who does?

I am saying , this governm ent is going to take a strong leadership role with respect to how it is we try and reduce the impact of violence in the classr oom, and we do not need to take leadership from the Liberal Party, who finall y, finally, is about to take a strong view on something. • (13 55) Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make it very clear for the Minister of Education.

Does this government support bringing in a code of conduct throughout the province of Manitoba that wo uld, in fact, ensure some basic fundamentals , to ensure there is behaviour that is acceptable throughout the province of Manitoba, that it is being administered, not depending on what a school division might- Mr. Speak er: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I will state the obvious. There will be nothing within ed reform that sanctions the hitting of the teacher in the cl ass room. Child and Family Services Time Guidelines-Abuse Committee Mr.

Doug Marti ndale (Burrow s): Mr. Speaker, my questions are for the Acting Minister of Fami ly Servi ces. When an individual is accuse d of child abuse , the individual goes through considerable anxiety, particularly when the accused person is fo und to be not guilty. The consequences for these individuals are devastating, and they include marri age breakup and fam ily breakup. The Ombudsman, in his report for 19 93, points out that there are no time guidelines for Child and Family Services agencie s' child abuse commit tees, and these accusations are not always proce ssed on a timely basis .

My question for the Acting Minister of Family Services is, has the Minister of Family Services

June 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3340 taken action with Child and Family Services agencies to esta blish time guidelines for their abuse committees? Bon. Harold Gill eshammer (Acting Minister of Family Services) : Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the minister. Child and Family Services Act Amendments Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Has the minister done a legislative review, and if so, will the minister bring in an amendment to The Child and Family Services Act, which is something that is badly need ed? Bon. Harold Gilles hammer (Acting Minister of Family Services) : Mr.

Speaker, as has been said on a number of occasions , there are issues around The Child and Family Services Act which are under review, and I am sure the minister will be taking the membe r's comments seriously, and I expect that sometime in the near futme, a major review of that act will be forthcoming. Child and Famfty Services Time Guidelines-Abuse Committee Mr.

Doug Martind ale (Burrows): Has the minister looked into the Child Abuse Registry committee and the issu e of whether or not there aie time guidelines there, and can the minister report on whether there is a backlog of individuals whose names are either waiting to go on the abuse registry or names which are eligible to come off the abuse registry? Bon. Harold Gilleshammer (Acting Minister of Family Servi ces): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), I will take that question as notice . Sexual Assault Victim Assistance Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. John s): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice . Today, Statistics Canada released a survey about victims of crime. Most disturbing in that survey was a finding that 90 percent of sexual assaults are never even reported to police. In fact, the City of Winnipeg statistics for last year show that reports to police for sexual offences went down by 16 percent. My question to the minister is, would the minister finally take an active role and put pro grams in place to encourage women to come forward so we can deal with the needs of these hidden survivors and deal with this in justice? Bon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General) : Mr. Speaker, as the member knows, we certainly do have a number of programs which are in place. We also have our victim services programs which do assist a number of victims across the province . I believe the range of people assisted was in the area of over 20,000 individuals in this province . This is a very serious issue and we certainly are attempting to provide that ass istance through the programs we have currently . • (1 400) Domestic Violence Court Backlo g Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns) : Mr.

Speaker, given that the study shows that women are victims of crime at a rate of 11 percent more than men, would the minister now announce a change in her poli cies, policies which have seen funding cease for victim services in five communities , a new ge t-soft approach to domestic abusers and horrendous backlogs in the Family Violence Court so that the assailants do not face justice for up to one year? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney Gen eral) : Mr. Spe aker, the member knows that he is quite incorrect in the inf onnation he has put forward.

He knows we have had a lengthy discussion around the issue of the time it takes to process ind ividuals through the due process of justice. The member, himself, cert ainly coming from that background, should understand the importance of due process of justice. Mr. Speaker, he also knows that we have been putting in place systemic changes to ensure that individuals can come forward, particular ly in the area of our Domestic Violence Court, within a

3341 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 1994 reaso nable length of time. We have recently made changes which allow some individuals to come through within that three -month window, and the longest period of time is in the five-to-seven month range, and that is very frequently as a result of requests from defence. Mr. Mackintosh : Mr. Speaker, when the minister talks of due process, she means overdue process. Auto Theft Government Str ategy Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St.

John s): My question is, despite Canada-wide trends in crime rates and given that in Winnipeg, car thefts have increased by 170 percent in the last year alone and only 13 percent of those cases are being solved, can the minister explain to this House why, after a year and a half of this trend, there is not a single program put in pla ce, nothing do ne by this government to deal with this epidemic of car theft and vandalism? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General ): Mr. Speak er, I really have to go back to spe ak:iilg about due proces s of law.

Whatever kinds of phrases the member wants to throw out, he should be ashamed of himself, coming from a legal background, to throw out phrases which treat in such an incredibly flippant style the due process of law. This government put in place the system of the Domestic Violence Court. That party did nothing. This government has action. We have acted and we continue to act on behalf of Manitobans. Post-Adoption Registry Search Fee Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertslan d): Mr. Speaker, my ques tions are for the Acting Minister of Family Services.

The minister will recall that my colleagues and I have previously asked questions concerning the imposing of a post-adoption registry fee. This year, this government plans to take some $85,000 from people searching for their children. How does this char ge fit in with the government's stated support for the International Year of the Family? Bon. Harold Gillesbammer (Acting Minister of Family Services: Mr. Speaker, the member is correct.

This was discussed in the Estimates of the Department of Family Services, and I understand the proposal brought forward by this department is based on fees char ged in the province of Saskatchewan. Mr. Robinson : This fee is going to stop many people who do not have $300 for such fees. I would like to ask the same minister, how many fewer people will use the registry this year because of the governm ent's actions? Mr. Gill eshammer: Fo llowing on the Saskatchewan model, the registration fee is $35, and I would tell the member it will be waived for social assistance recipients. Mr.

Robinson : My final questi on: Given the example of Hilda Geisbrecht, who is being asked to pay $300, even though it was her son who contacted the registry, I want to ask the acting minister, what flexibility and what appeal process will the minister be putting in place for disputes over the fee being charged? Mr. Gilleshammer : As the member is possibly aware, we cann ot discuss individual cases here in the House. I would indicate that I will pass the member's question on to the minister and the department, and I am sure that they will get fair treatment RCMP Detachment Ethelbert, Manitoba Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I have a petition here signed by over 350 people from the Ethelbert area who are concerned because the Ethelbert RCMP detachment is being reduced from a three - to a two-person detachment. They are concerned also because they are told that this detachment could be closed. I want to ask the minister responsible why this detachment which serves a very large area is being reduced, and is this government moving towards

June 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3342 closing more rural RCMP detachment s in Manitoba? Bo n. Ros emary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attor ney General ): Mr. Speaker, the member knows that the RCMP is in charge of looking at how they will provide their services across the province and that they certainly wodc with communities. I wodc closely with the RCMP to make sure there is adequate policing service across this province.

We have, in addition, just entered into the agreement with the Dakota Ojibway Tribal Council to ensure that there is policing on the reserve areas and will continue to wodc with the RCMP to see that there is very significant policing across Manitoba. Ms. Wowchuk : Mr. Speaker, I understand there is a study being done studying the utilization by some of the areas in Manitoba, and people have been told that until this study is complete, no more changes will take place, no more detachments will be reduced in size. Why is the Ethelbert detachment being reduced before the study is complete? Mrs . Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, what the member is speaking about is a process which I believe is taking place across Canada in terms of RCMP divisions where the RCMP is examining their delivery of service, whether or not there can be administr ative RCMP offic ers who can be redeployed to do wodc actually in communities and to make sure that the service is the most effective one. We are well aware of the study which is taking place and have observer status to monitor the ongoing process of that study. Ms. Wowch uk: Mr. Speaker, the minister says she is aware of this study.

I want to ask her what assuran ces or what steps she is taking to ensure that people in remote areas, in rural areas, have an opportunity to have input, to give their opinions and to plead their case as to why their detachments should not be reduced. Mrs. Vodrey : Mr. Speaker, as I said, this is a study which is being undertaken by the RCMP. It is being undertaken by the RCMP across this province to examine how the y can best deliver and best utilize their complemen t within the province of Manitoba. The RCMP, I understand, will be speaking with communities. I understand that has already begun.

As I said to the member, we also retain an observer status to monitor the process of that study. Metropolitan Kiwanis Courts Government Action Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples) : Mr. Speaker, last Tuesday, I believe it was June 7, I attended a meeting of residents of Metropolitan Kiwanis Courts and their families and friends that was held as a result of increasing anxiety of the residents as a result of some changes, and where an ad hoc committee was formed. I believe George LeB aron will be the chair of this ad hoc committee. My question is to the Minister of Health.

As the minister was not there, nor his staff or anyone from his caucus, has he been in contact with Mr. Le Baron or anyone from his committee? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the honourable member's interest in this matter, but I wonder why it took him from last Tuesday when he attended the meeting to raise the matter with me. Matters have been raised on a daily basis by the honou rable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) with myself before that meeting and since that meeting, so I appreciate the honourable member's interest, belated though it is.

The concerns of the people of that area are being very, ver y ade quately and commenda bly represented by the honour able member for Sturgeon Creek, and we are wo rking together along with the residents of the area to address the outstanding concerns that remain. Mr. Kowalski: My supplementary question, Mr. Spe aker, is, will the Minister of Health and the Minister of Housing (Mrs. Mcin tosh) wor k together with the board, the Metropolitan Kiwanis and this residents committee to resolve the situation in a positive way?

3343 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 1994 Mr. McCrae: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have been working and will continue to worlc to provide the assuran ce to the people there that the residents are the No. 1 priority in the minds of the government and the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine ). We expect to have a satisfactory resolution of all matters. • (1 410) Unemployment Insur ance Commission Training Freeze Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolsel ey): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education and Training.

For some months, there bas been a freeze on portions of the federal UIC training money, and I wanted to ask the Minister of Education whether he had spoken recently to the federal Minister of Employment to detennine what the impact of those delays in the federal social refonn proces s will be and how much longer the portions of training money will be frozen in Manitoba. Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I have not recently spoken to Mr. Axworthy, but certainly we are waiting with bated breath the next move federally with respect to the whole refonn policy.

I am hoping there will be something concrete yet this month. Ms. Friesen : My concern is for the continuing free ze, and I wanted to ask the minister, would he investigate the impact of these frozen funds on unemployed Manitobans? What proportion, for example, of unemployed Manitobans are getting training this year as compared to, say, two years ago? Mr. Mannes s: I do not have that infonnation. I will take the question as notice. Ms. Friesen : Would the minister also investigate the impact of these frozen funds on Manitoba's community colleges, particularly for the planning for the fall session? Mr.

Mannes s: I know it is difficult for the colleges at this time to complete their planning for the fall schedule. I do not know at this point in time when it is we can expect a response to work towards greater certainty by the federal government. Public Housing Safety Review Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East) : I have a question for the Minister of Urban Affairs . A couple of weeks ago, I raised the matter of installing fencing behind certain public housing units in the city of Brandon to help prevent future railway accidents involving young children. The minister responded positively.

She also intimated, I believe, that the department would look at other public housing unit locations in Brandon with regard to this same problem. I would ask her specifically today whether her staff would conduct a complete review to see whether other fences may be warranted as a preventative measure. Ron. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Urban Affairs): Staff is going to take a look at other housing units to see if indeed a similar dangerous situation exists. I have not yet heard back from them on that.

I hope to do so before too long, and I will let the member know as soon as I have heard what they have had to report to me. Mr. Leonard Evans : I thank the minister for that answer, although I did not hear the latter part of it because of certain inteljections, so I would ask the minister, when this review is complete, would she be prepared to make a report to the Legislature or make a public report of this problem? Mrs. Mcintosh: I had indicated in the last part to the question that was obscured by commentary in the House that was not for Hansard that I will be hearing back from my staff.

When I do, I will contact the member and let him know the results of that report. At that time, I will decide if we need to do anything further. I will be sure to stay in touch with him on it. Mr. Leonard Evans : I thank the minister for a very positive response in this matter today and a couple of weeks ago.

June 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3344 As a more general question with regard to future construction of family housing units, will her department have any

part icular policy on the installation of fe nces as may be requi red? I am talking about future construction wherever in this provi nce, again, cODSidering the question of very small children who sometimes are difficult to control to ens ure that we do everything possible to prevent any type of accident involving very young children. Mrs. Mcintosh : Mr.

Speaker, I should indicate for starters something I believe I have mentioned that may not be known to the member that well, and that is, the fe deral government has now indicated it will no longer be funding or cost sharing in the construction of new social housing uni ts. That cost-sharing not being there may make it difficult for us to be doing a lot of new construction. We are, however, looking at making sure that our existing stock is well maintained, and all of those issues concerning safety will be examined by staff.

We do not curre ntly have a policy that says we will build fe nce s, but given that this situation has occurred, it is what I have asked them to explore. Income Security Program Telephone Service Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington) : Mr.

Speaker, in the Pedlar report delivered to the govermnent in August of 1991, one of the responses that the Pedlar repor t asked for from the provincial govermnent was: "that Manit oba Family Services/ Income Security implement a policy of including the cost of telephone services as a basic need for victims of domestic violence ." I would like to ask the Acting Minister of Family Services if that re commen dation has been followed and the degree to which it has been impl emented. Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Acting Minister of Fanilly Services): Mr.

Speaker, as my honourable friend is well aware, a number of ref orms have been brought to the Income Secmity Program. Just in case she has maybe lost the inf ormation I have given her in the past, I would indicate that among the things that were done was the creation of a new rate for disabled people to recognize some of their special needs. Single parents who are on social assistance who needed the comfort of maintaining their health benefits as they left the program are able to do that for up to a year at this time.

We have recognized that liquid assets were very low in the past and under the previous govermnent had remained unchanged for some time. We made a major step in increasing those liquid assets so members of that community who are on social assis tance are able to buy some of those things they nee ded. Mr. Speaker : Time for Oral Que stions has expired. NONPOL nnC AL STATEMENTS Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Kildonan have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Andrew Mynarski Park Commemoration Mr. Dave Chomiak (Klldonan) : Mr.

Speaker, I rise in this House on the occasion yesterday to mark a very important ceremony in the life of Manitoba, Winnipeg and Canada in general . That is the commem oration of a park yest erday to honour Pilot Officer Andrew Mynarski, V.C., on the 50th annivers ary of the fateful mission for which Mr. Andrew Mynarski was awarded the Victoria Cross . Members from all political parties, the member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer), the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski), the member for St Johns (Mr.

Mackintosh) from our party all had occasion to attend the ceremony yesterday and commended and talked about the ex ploits of this very courage ous individual who serves as a role model not only to individuals in the Polish community, but to all Manitobans and all Canadi ans. Mr. Speaker, it is quite fitting that a plaque was unveiled yest erday and a park was named in commem oration of Pilot Officer Andrew

3345 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 1994 Mynarski to go together with the civic ward that carries his name, the Royal Canadian Legion that carries his name and the school that carries his name. I recall as a youth, Mr. Speaker, the very strong effect that the exploits and the story of Andrew Mynarski had on me and all the children in our class from north end Wmnipeg, in fact, because the story was contained-and I think members in this House will rec all- in the standard reader we used to have in elementary school. It was a very courageous and fitting one.

The effect of hi� courageous giving of his life for Canada and the very methodology in the way by which it was carried out had a very profound effect on me and my fellow st udents, many of whom were first-generation immigrants from Poland and Ukraine. I think it is very fitting that all members of this House join me in com memorating the 50th anniversary of this gallant indivi dual's mission and all that he did for Canada and all he stood for, particularly in light of the annivers ary com memor ating D-Day invasions that have occurred also almost simultaneously with this event, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much.

Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Niakwa have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Jack Reimer (Niakwa): Mr. Speaker, I would also like to join in expressing the gratitude of being invited to the unveiling of the plaque for Andrew Mynarski on Je fferson and Mandalay Stree t. It was indeed gratifying to be there, not only for the sake of bringing greetings from the government, but in meeting the family of Andrew Mynarski. His two sisters were there.

Also, another very important aspect of my visit there was meeting one of the crew members, one of the actual crew members who was on the plane with Andrew Mynarski on the unfortunate night which was 50 years ago almost exactly to the day. It actually happened on the evening of June 12. It was approximately about two o'clock in the late night of June 12 that the actual plane went down.

After the services at the park, there was also a commemorative service at the Canadian Forces air force base out on Slwp Boulevard in which there was the ceremony in a building that is dedicated to the memory of Andrew Mynarski with all the memorabilia, the original crew pictures and some of the actual happenings that happened on that fateful night. Mr. Speaker, it was a very moving experience. It was an experience that I would join all members here in the House to pay tribute to a great Canadian, a great Manitoban, Andrew Mynarski. Thank: you. Mr.

Speaker : Does the honourable member for The Maples have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Mapl es): I would like to add my words of recognition to what went on on Sunday. We in 'The Maples are especially honoured that the park chosen to honour Andrew Mynarski is in our constituency. I was moved by the ceremony. I met many of the family, friends, even an ex-crew member of Andrew Mynarski at the ceremo ny. What I found especially touching was that a number of my former partners in the police force were there.

I can remember situations of danger that we faced together and how those terrible incidents, whether it is in war or in peacetime, brings out the worst and the best in all of us. I think we not only honour Andrew Mynarski, but all the other heroes that we never found out about. It was a great honour to be part of the ceremony. I join in commemorating this event. Committee Changes Mr. George Dickes (Point Dougla s) : Mr. Speaker, on June 2, 1994, I moved a committee substitution for the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources for the Tuesday, June 21, 1994, meeting.

The substitution was the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) for

June 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3346 the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie). At that time, the House agreed to a substitution. Since that time, the committee meetin g in question has been moved up from Tuesday, June 21, to Tuesday, June 1 4. I was wondering if there was leave of the House to make the committee substitution for the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources of the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) for the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) effective for June 14 instead of June 21. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave to make that committee change? Leave. [agre ed] Mr. Dickes: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: Flin Flon (Mr . Storie) for Transco na (Mr. Reid) for June 21, 1994, for 10 a.m. Motion agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, se oonded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Envir onment; and the honourable membe r for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transportation. COMMITT EE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ENVIRONMENT Mr.

Deputy Ch airp er son (Mar cel Lauren deau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to older. •

(1430) This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Roo m 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Environment. When the committee last sat it had been considering item 2.(a)(1) on page 52 of the Estimates book. I believe it is pages 28 and 29 of the book you are in. Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson) : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, to start off with, I just want to get some clarification from the minister regalding other opportunities for raising issues related to this department. The member for Osborne (Ms.

McConnick) and I were just having a discussion with respect to the Hazardous Waste Management Corporation. We have a number of questions related to hazardous waste and the corporation. I am wondering if we can get some commit ments from the minister regalding the time we can expect the committee dealing with the corporation to resume, if he has made any commitments related to that and if he can tell the committee. Bon. Glen Cu mmings (Min ister of Environment) : I have indicated that we wi ll ce rtainly answer as many questions as the members would like to bring forwanl right now.

The House leaders will disc uss what committees they are going to call and when. Ms. Cerilli: I would just like to put on the recoro that, because there are so many environment issues, I would prefer to deal with the Hazanlous Waste Management Corporation and those issues under that committee. I would ask if the minister is in agree ment with that and if we could have some agreement that we would be able to have his indication that he is going to tell his House leader that he is willing to have the corporation come up under the standing committee within the next week or so. Mr.

Cummings: There is lots of opp ortunity and willingness to deal with any hazardous waste issues that the members would like to bring up right now. Ms. Ceri lli: Is the minister being coy? Is he suggesting that he is not going to resume the

3347 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13 , 1994 Hazardous Waste Management ann ual review of the ann ual report under the standing committee? Mr. Cummings : It seems to me that almost every one of the annua l report s out there has been outstanding for a year or two befo re oppo sition has chosen to pass them. The number of committees that are called have nothing to do with when those reports are pass ed. If the member has a ques tion, let us get at it. Ms. Cerilli: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, as I just finished saying, I think there are a variety of issues that we could deal with under hazardous waste, but there are a lot of inegularities going on with the Hazardous Waste Management Cotporation. I have an issue of Haz ardou s Materia ls Management magazine with me, and I have some ques tions related to the corporation based on this. I reall y want to use my time most expeditiously, and I would prefer to deal with the corporation at the committee.

I would appreciate it if the minister would indicate to his House leader that we would like to have that standing committee resume within the next week or so. Mr. Cummings : I think I am familiar with the

article that the member referenced. If she has a ques tion, I would be more than willing to answer it or atte mpt to answer it. Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will then resume my questions related to the Environm ent Estimates review. I want to start off with asking the minister to clarify the process now that there has been an in junction filed with respect to the hearings by the Clean Environment Commission on Louisia na Pacific's propo sal up in Swan River. Mr. Cummings : Everything is sub ject to what may unfold, I suppose, when the court resumes.

But, at this point, the advice I have is that the court has simply indicated that the panel shall not make a decision prior to the court having heard the appeal when a date is set for the 23rd of June, and that would certainly app ear to be quite compatible with the proce ss that is underway at Swan River. The hearings are scheduled to continue this week and they are continuing. Ms. Cerilli: So the hearings will continue and the commi ssion will contin ue to hear research presented and testimony, even though the court will be prep aring its material and going ahead on June 23, you said, when the court will sit.

Mr. Cummings: The court is not preparing at this point. Those who are see king the in junction will undoubtedly be prepari ng their position. The court has set a date when they will hear their arguments. Ms. Cerilli: I thank the mini st er for that clarific ation. I would ask if this deadline or this date of June 23 is compatible with dates that the company has put forward for its deadline. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, pl ease.

Could I ask the honourable members , if they want to carry on their conve rsation to do it up on the side over here so that the inte rject mike does not pick you up and inte rfere with Hansard. The honourable minister, to respond. Mr. Cummings: Let me very clear about this. The company has nothing to do with it, absolutely nothing to do with it. Ms. Cerilli: Nothing to do with what, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Mr. Cummings: There seems to be an echo in here. I just had a question from the NDP critic as to whether or not the court dates were compatible with the company's proposals.

My response is the company has absolutely nothing to do with what the court may or may not set for dates. They cer tainly did not consult the company and certainly did not consult me. The courts will act independently in response to the presentation that they have rece ived in reques t of an inj unction . Ms. Cerilli: I thank the minister for that, because what I was referring to was the deadline that Louisiana-Pacific has given for when they wanted to be given the environment licence for the go-ahead to begin construction. I heard there were some deadlines given of June at some point.

I am wondering if this in junction is going to jeopardize that deadline at all.

June 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3348 Mr. Cummings: Is the member concerned that it might? Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, with all due respect, I am the opposition. I will be asking the questions here today. Is the minister not going to answer my question? Mr. Cummings: As I have said many times, once the company enters into the environmental review process, it is out of their bands. They understand the process. They understand that the commission operate s independently and certainly the courts operate independently, and they will have to function within those paramet ers. •

(1440) Ms. Cerilli : So, ju st to clarify, the Clean Environment Commission is operating independently and is not bound by any requests in agreements or presentations or pro posals by the company . Mr. Cummings: That is correct This is one thing, of course, that does, I think , create an aura that is sometimes to the advantage of the opposition and the opponents to ma jor pro jects. It is not the first time that people who are opponents to a particular process have sought refuge in the courts or have re stitution or relief, whatever the correct tenni nology would be.

The company indicated early on that it wanted to be in a certain position by a certain time, but, frankly , I have indicated many times those who criticize the Man itoba environment process, I think , do so probably not well advise d, because the process is quite independent. We always expect panels to proceed expeditiously, but we do not expect them to be driven in the sense that somebody pulls a date out of the air, particu larly a proponent pulls a date out of the air and proceeds . Ms. Cerilli: The minister made the comment that they wanted to be at a certain position at a certain time.

Does the minister have any information that could clarify that? What position did they want to be at at what time? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this is absurd. I am being asked to regulate the company . At the same time, the member is now asking me to regurgitate or restate some publicly stated matters that the company put on the record. I would suggest they put it on the record perhaps before they understood our proc ess, but my job is to enforce the process and let the commission operate unf ettered.

Now that the environmental assessment is completed and the hearings are underway , I am not sure that the member is advancing her case or the case for environmental protection in this province by following this line of discussion. I certainly am going to make every effort not to say anything that would impede or reflect on either the commission or the courts . Ms. Cerilli : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, all I am trying to do is get a little info rmation from the minister and get that put on the record.

This is the place where the Environment department is held accountable to the public of Manitoba and that is part of what my job is as the critic and the MLA for our party that does this. So I do not think that I am asking any questions that have not been, as the minister says, asked before. All that I am trying to do is put the picture together right here today. We are in an advant ageous position of being in Estimates at this time. This is a very significant issue. Mr.

Cummings: I am quite prepared to enhance discussion or debate of the process and how it is followed and how it proceeds, but I have to emphasize that once any proponent enters into our proc ess, we watch and wait worriedly until the recommendations come out the other end. We , I do not think, would ever want to put anything forward that indicates anything other than a great deal of respect for the process and for the commission and the work they are doing. Point of Order Ms. Cerilli: On a point of order, I am having difficulty hearing the minister.

I do not know if he needs to speak into the mike or we need to have more decorum in the committee . Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable member does not have a point of order, but I would

3349 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 1994 ask the members who are here to please refrain from having any discussions or entering into the debate. This is an opportunity for the critic to ask some questions, and I would appreciate it if the minister was able to respond and be heard. ••• Mr.

Cummings: I am basically repeating what I said earlier, that I am not anxious to do anything more than debate the fonnat that is followed and to re-emphasize that once this proponent, being Louisiana-Pacific, or any other proponent enters into the process, they will have to confonn to the process that we have laid out within the guidelines in The Environment Act. I find it somewhat disappointing that we have on the one hand both the opposition parties somewhat skeptical of the process and stating so publicly, and then at the same time we have the member for Swan River (Ms.

Wowchuk) putting on the record that she is disappointed in bow slow the process is going. So I have to express my frustration in viewing how some of my political antagonists view this process. I guess what you say depends on where you are and which audience you are discussing the issues with.

Certainly, I get the feeling there is some frustration on the part of the member for Swan River, that she would like this process to move along, and yet I get the sense from the direction of the questioning that I am getting from the member for Radisson, that she is quite sympathetic to the case that is being put forward to the court and questioning the speed at which the process is moving- Point of Order Ms. Cerilli: I am not sure if the House rules apply here, but I definitely think the minister is impugning motives to my question, and I would just ask him to answ er the questions.

I have two more questions on this issue and then I would like to move along. We do not have very much more time for the departmental Estimates, and rather than playing politics, the phrase they often like to use on the other side, I would like to just have the questions dealt with, and let us move along. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable member did not have a point of order. It was clearly a dispute over the facts . • •• Mr. Cummings : Mr.

Deputy Cbaiiperson, I am disappointed that we are getting into a situation where if I react to some of the angles of questioning that appear to be designed to imply or impugn, that the process into which we are entering is somehow flawed. When I look at the somewhat dappled history of environmental assessment in this province prior to our government taking office , we had the Limestone project, one of the largest projects up to that date , bei ng put in pla ce without any environmental assessment.

I see the NDP in Sa skatchewan do not want to enter into an environmental assessment of their uranium mines, even though the federal government is seeking to have that done. I ask your forgiveness if I appear to be a little testy about the manner in which our process is being run . The people from Louisiana-Pacific have stated very clearly that this is one of the toughest processes that they have ever encountered. Yet I constantly have my critics saying that these guys will run amuck and referring in a derogatory sense to the fact that Manitoba is being treated like a Third World country. It cannot be both ways.

It cannot be a tough process in a Third World country. If that is what they think is happening here, then there is a great deal of confusion about the situation and the gravity, frankly, of the measures that are being taken to make sure that Louisiana-Pacific operates in the future in a wa y that is regula ted appropriately by the department, that any known impacts are detennined at this stage in the process, and I would be more than anxious to move along to the next line of questioning. Ms. Cerilli: Does the minister have a legal opinion with respect to the separation of the

June 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3350 hearings and the environmental impact assess ment on this proposal ? By that, I mean to look solely during this bearing at the operation and the construction of the plant itself without examining the sustainability of the cut area? Mr. Cummings: I am not going to enter into the debate about opinions. You, unfortunate ly, can find several different lawyers to provide different opinions depending on their app roach. I am quite confident that the environmental assessment of the forests can proceed unimpe ded.

I am advised this may well be one of the things that is being raised in the issues that are being put before the court, and therefore I probably will not answer the question. Ms. Cerilli: Can the minister tell us if part of the proposal or any part of the agree ment with respect to this company includes them now having some shares in Repap? Mr. Cummings : I am ill equipped to answ er that question, but I believe the answ er is no. •

(1450) Ms. Cerilli: Just to clarify then, these are two companies that are not in any way joined? (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Cummings : I have not been privy to any discussion or review of the pedigree of these two companie s, but I think what the member is probably ref erring to is that there are cutting areas that Re pap bad access to that they now acknowledge they would be unlikely to require. As I recall the original situati on, they have indicated that those cutting areas can be made available for other uses, and that may well be the use of this forest management plan.

I think I would again have to de fer from answering the specifics of those questions, because that is regulated under the Department of Natural Res ources . We are very cautious and very conscientious about the fact that what used to be given away is now a valuable matte r, that being the deep fore st cutting licences. It is not that long ago those were sort of meted out without much value necessa rily being attached to them. We now certainly recognize the value that is attached there, and that bas led to a much more rigorous licensing and all ocation process . Ms.

Cerilli: Can we or will we have any of the cut alloc ation currently under Repa p's cut area transferred to LP or Louisiana-Pacific prior to there being a Oean Environment Commission or other level of government bearing, environmental impact assessment bearing, on that cut area? Mr. Cummings: I do not think I am qualified to answer that question. Ms. Cerilli: Why not? Mr. Cummings: I am not the minister responsible for forestry, frankly. Ms. Ceril li: It is a que stion related to environmental impact assessment. It is a question related to the ability to have environmental licensing for cut area.

I think that it is possibly something the minister bas to co-operate with the other minister on, but certainly I think be bas the authority to answer the question . Mr. Cummings: I guess as a member of Executive Council I can answ er any one of the questions . I just do not know the answer in this particular case . I think where the member is trying to get to, however, is what is the validity of the environmental licensing of the fore st cutting program and the proce ss that that will be put throu gh.

It will very much look into the cutting practi ces, what areas will be cut, bow they will be cut, the specific management in sensitive areas, stream crossin gs, where roads may or may not be allowed, all of those things, a very intensive process and certainly not anything that I understand other than the very strictest application of the forest management and the environmental licensing process for forestry management that will be followed.

I anticipate environmental licensing for the forestry program to be very intense and very detaile d, and frankly-! am allowed one candid comment this afternoo n--! assume that would be where people would wish to put forward most of

3351 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 1994 their concerns and efforts, because this can be particularly detailed work. Ms. Cerllli: Just to clarify then, giv en the completion of the operation, the plant itself, will there be any cutting with cut going to Louisiana Pacific prior to hearings on cut allocation and allowable cut for this new company? Mr. Cummings: I am not sure that the question is totally relevant inasmuch as nothing will be cut without an environmental licence pennitting that cutting. Ms. Cer llli: That is not the question I asked, though.

The question I asked was with respect to the environmental impact assessment on the cutting and allocation for the new company. I am wondering if the minister can give us some guarantee that there will be an assessment before any cut is going to be supplied to the new company. Mr. Cummings: The company is not going to be cutting forthwith once they have finished up the hearings that they are in. They are applying for a plant and the licensing of that plant. Immediately following that or as soon as possible, I would imagine that the next process would be followed.

I am not sure that I follow the gist of the member's question. I think what she is wondering about is timing down the road and whether or not the company might be able to operate or whether it might be confounded and ground to a halt because it had not got its forestry environmen tal licensing completed. I would remind the member that the company might well be able to buy logs from other sources. They do not have to buy them from Manitoba. Ms.

Cerilli: Just to clarify, my question is related to supplying the new company with trees prior to an environmental impact assessment on its request for a cut licence, and I want some guarantees if that is going to be able to happen. Mr. Cummings : I am respond ing as lucidly as I can that, even if they are unable to get the lumber, the wood they might need under the appropriate timing and licens ing proces s, if that is the concern that the member has--and I presume that she is concerned.

If she wants them to be able to cut as quickly as possible, my answer is that if that becomes an issue, they can well buy from private suppliers, other pre-existing wood-harvesting licensees, some of whom might well be outside of the provinc e. So the company will not be hamstrung by the process here, if in fact that should occur. They may be able to acquire the material from other sources . Ms. Cer illi: Can they buy from Repap or from other local people? Mr. Cummings: I am informed that, if they were to be buying from one of those sources , the licence of those lice nsees would have to be amended. Ms.

Cer illi: Can that happen without a public hearing or a public process and full environmental impact assessment? Mr. Cummings: Repap, for example, annually has to publicly-there is a licensing process which has a public component to it, an opportunity for public input. Ms. Cerllli: The minister has talked at other times about not wanting to duplicate environmental impact assessments. Why did he make the decision or why was the decision made to split this process in two and not review the cut area and the operation and construction of the plant at one time? •

(1500) Mr.

Cummings: To begin with, it was pretty obvious, according to the appropriate personnel and the appropriate information that was gathered through our Forestry department, that there was sufficient material available, that large amounts of material that Louisiana-Pacific might want, i.e., poplar, are, in fact, dying out there in the forest management area Given that that will eventually have to go through a process that will rigorously lay out the cutting methods, the areas that will be left uncut, the management of the sensitive areas, the set-aside areas, the wildlife protection, the stream crossings and all of those things, would be part of a licensing process, we then proceeded to deal with the request for the plant itself, which is very local and very specific in terms of its impact.

June 13, 199 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3352 The fact is that we are very much in line with other jurisdictions in terms of how these types of projects are reviewed. The forestry and the mills are not reviewed jointly in any other jurisdiction either. So this process is not something that is inegular or off the wall. The legitimate questions were asked early on about availability of cut. They were answered. The environmental impacts of how that is going to be managed will be dealt with through the licensing process for the cut area. (Mr.

Deputy Chaiipe rson in the Chair) It is an easy leap for those who want to be critical and who want to be obstructionist in terms of development of this type of an industry to say that you must do the licensing first and then deal with the mill, but we have had pre-existing licences and huge tracts of land across the Parldand area. We have the same sort of issue here in some respect as was raised during the parks issue that at one time park lands were cut areas and people were assigned cut areas.

When the paiks boundar ies were laid down, people viewed an opportunity to make multidimensional , multi purpose areas to be brought under management of, in the broadest sense, a parlc for specific reasons . So those harvestable areas were included within the boundaries, but they were included ful ly expecting that they would, in fact, be harvested, but that there wo uld be another level of management that would be applied to that area. So I guess what I am trying to do is demonstrate that this is not some kind of a clandestine or irregular process that we are entering into.

We fully anticipated it would be controversial in the sense that it would create discussion because it is a new industry, but the mill is very specific to the area of where it will sit We are tal.k:ing about a mill of which there are some 80, I believe, or close to 80 across North America. So this is, in fact, a system that means that in many ways we will not be cutting some of the other trees across the country , or even in our own province that might be cut for const ruction purposes, because this is a product that can replace an awful lot of other construction materials that are made out of other specie s.

It strikes me that, just as we have switched from different edible oils in the world market, there is quite an opportunity here to switch to a diffe rent construction product for our homes. I have to put on the record, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, something that I saw in relationship to the mining industry in Newf ou ndland, where they put out a place mat which said, where does your home come from? On that place mat-when people are sitting there waiting for their service or waiting for someone to come back from the washroom, undoubtedly people sit and look- An Honourable Member: Or sitting en joying a cigarette. Mr.

Cummings: Or en joying a cigarette, as my colleague says. I would not enjoy one , frankly , so I had better not touch that one. I would not, but the fact is that it talks about the number of products that come from the min ing industr y . Your , basements come from a product that is mined. The stucco on the outside comes from a product that is mined. Your ele ctrical wiring comes from a product that has been mined. Your plumbing very often comes from a produ ct that originally was mined in the raw state. Now I think we need to talk about- Point of Order Ms. Cerilli: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I am waiting for the segue back. Tie this in, Mr. Minister, please . Mr. Deputy Chairp erson: Order, please. The honourable member did not have a point of order. ••• Mr. Cummings: I will try and be succinct and get to the end of my story. The fact is that I think we need to consider, if we want to talk in the broad policy sense about where we are head ed, going into using oriente d strand board as opposed to two-by-six, two-by-four and two-by-twelve in the construction of houses, then we need to consider that this may well be a very beneficial ind ustry in the long run.

We need to make sure that we license it properly. We need to make sure that the forestry

3353 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 1994 management aspect is properly contro lled, but the fact is that we are using a product that generally stays in the cutting zones as something that rots back into the environment, or, where it is close to populated areas, and out obviously away from the core area of the city of Winn ipe g, huge amounts of this material is sawed and used for stove wood. It is not unusual, once you get away from the Perimeter, to have large volumes of stove wood made out of poplar.

Now what we are talking about is harvesting larger amounts of a pl ant that regenerates itself rather rapidl y. We will have to apply a different type of forestry mana gement to it. We will have to leam from other jurisdictions what happe ns when you harvest large numbers of poplars out of a specific area, what is best for rej uvenation of the forest in those areas.

It seems to me that if we still continue to have construction made out of wood products in this country, we are either going to start importing them from Russia, where we know that they are not cut in the most environme nt ally sensitive way, where we know that they do not have the controls on their plants that we have here . We know that we ha ve signif ic ant proble ms getting lumb er shipments out of Russia licensed so that they do not transport disease and pests , along with the lumber into this country, that would destroy our forestry indu stry. We know those options are all there.

I fail to see why the member is so wound up about this that she is not prepared to look at some of the ways that we can improve the control , that we can manage the plant acceptably , that we can manage the forestry management in a way that the province of Manitoba will be able to harvest a product that is becoming very desirable in the construction busin ess. It is no differe nt-! can draw another analogy right in downtown Wmni peg.

A hundred tonnes of our junk-w aste paper, poor, poor pulpwood, packing crate s, wooden pallets-are chewed up and made into a fairly acceptable wood pulp that becomes construction paper that we are exporting to Florida right now at the clip of about 100 tonnes a day to help them with their reconstruction after they were tom apart by a series of tornadoes the last two years.

We are becoming part of a larger and more complex syst em, but I really object to being constantly challenged about whether or not we can manage the process here so that we can use the product responsibly so that we can regenerate it, so that we can have a sustainable industry . Be cause Louisiana-Pacific is bringing all their own money to the table, does that all of a sudden mean that government loses its control? The answer is no. • (1 510) Ms.

Cerilli: So, in answer to my question about why the process was split, the plant and then the cut are a, one of the re asons is that other jurisdictions do that, and the other reason is that we are becoming part of this global market. Is that what the minister is saying? Mr. Cummings : No, that is not what I am say ing. lam saying- Ms. Ceril li: You lost me on the story about the mini ng. I am sorry. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member for Radisson does not want to listen to my storie s.

It is pr obably better that she listen to that story than have me read into the record what the NDP in Saskatchewan are doing about uranium mini ng. Point of Order Hon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture) : I would like to enter into the debate, Mr. Deputy Chairperson Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable minister did not have a point of order. •• • Mr. Enos: I did not have a point of order, but I am wondering whether I can enter into the debate and ask some questions . An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Enos: Mr. Deputy Chair, now I do have a point.

June 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3354 Point of Order Mr. Enns: A member of the Legislature has absolutely the same amount of right and acce ss to a minister and to the department when consi dering the Estimates of that parti cular department, and I would like the Clair to show me where that is not the case. The fact that we have fallen into the practi ce where this has become a solitude debate between the critic and the minister is, in my judgment, a regrettable backsliding of what once used to be an inf ormative debate for all members of the Legislature.

I simply claim my right to ask some spec ific questions germane to the issue bef ore the committee right now, which has to do with bow the governments and what the responsibility the government has in determining whether or not the resource is there in suffi cie nt capacity to be provided for in this particular instance, which might go to help and explain the question that the honourable member bas. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honour able minister did not have a point of order.

I would advise members that at this time, as the Minister of Agriculture has stated, we have fallen into a practice of giving the opp ortunity of the critics to ask questions of the minister. When the critics are finished that line of questioning, if the honourable mini ster would like to put a question on this line , I will give the mini ster that op portunity at that time. ••• Ms. Cerilli: I was trying to get some clarification of why the departm ent and the minister chose to separate the two areas to be assessed under The Environment Act , the plant construction and operation and the cut allocation.

In his answer be referred to other jurisdictions not doing anything differ ently to what we are doing here. That concerns me because this government brought in Bill 49 a couple of sessi ons ago, I think it was, and I want to ask the minister if Bi ll 49, the amendments to The Environment Act that allowed for the phasing in or the staging of licens ing, is going to be necessary or aff ect this development? Mr. Cummings : This is not a phased licence. This is a mill licence, and the forestry operati ons will be licensed as well. Ms. Cerilli: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, then his answ er is-w ell, the minister referenced product leaving the province. I would like to ask the minis ter if he can tell the committee if the proposal from this new company includes an indication of where the pr odu ct will be used -if it will be supplied locally in Manitoba or if it will be leaving the province-and if we have some sense of the percentages at this stage. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Depu ty Chaiipers on, there is certainly nothing that I am aware of that binds the area of sale. Market will certainly dictate that, however.

This prov ince is notorious for importing B.C. fir, and I would think that the member is not like ly-and perhaps she would like to edify me, but I do not think the member is encouraging the � use of further elimination of the B.C. fir beca use that is where some of the most concern is being raised right now about the cutting of some of the majestic fir in B.C.

In fact, Manito ba has encou raged the development of constructed building materials as a way of using, and it has increasingly grown, not just through this pro cess but through fore runne rs of this proc ess in B.C. and other places, where material that was once burned off as waste and used for beat in thei r drying process, is now being put back into chipboard and particle board and those types of materials, which provide very accep table building materials using what would normally be waste.

Of course, once you get past the view of some, and I do not agree with this view, but there are a lot of people who view poplar and treat them as waste because they are interspersed with other softwoods out there; they are not always harvested. This provides an opportunity to take pressure off buying some of the long grain planks that have been available from cutting larger and older trees. So I think I would have to answ er that there is nothing that I am aware of that binds the marlcet except that certainly the further you ship it the

3355 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 1994 more expensive it is going to be, so we Manitoba should have an advantage price-wise on product. Ms. Cerilli: One of the concerns that wa s expressed to me was that some of the local people logging in that area are supplying local matkets. Does the minister have any way of clarifying if there will be any disrup tion, based on this proposal, of that relationship? Mr.

Cummings: I am not aware of the details of the forestry licensing , or fore stry cutting pennits that some of the local operators have, except that I am aware of the issue and I am aware that every effort is being made, and I think successful ly, to make sure that the tra ditional local operations conti nue.

But there is a case in point that I referred to earlier that needs to be put in the context of this question, and that is that there were a number of people who act as sm all cutters-and I am not sure if it is one of them the member is refening to or not There have been a number of situations where a nu mber of smaller allocations were made and they were not pri ced.

That means that the public was absotbing the cost of reforestation, et cetera, and obviously, as we have a better and more elaborate fore stry and licensing pro cess, those private and small cutting operations-not the private ones, pardon me, but the smaller cutting operatio ns- are seeking assurances from DNR and have been assured that they will not be adversely affected by this. There was a short period of uncertainty.

I am not sure of just the exact period, but it was about three months ago at least in that time period when there was considerable uncertainty and anxiety on the part of those operators, and I believe that that has been, to a large de gree, addressed. • (15 20) Ms. Cerilli: I want to get back to the issue of the impact assess ment. I am wonde ring if the minister can tell the committee, how long did Repap operate in that area without having a licence authorized from a public environmental impact assessment? Mr. Cummings: They have always had a forestry licence.

They have received environmental licensing on specific processes, and I am not sure that I can answ er the question. Ms. Cerilli: I will wait for the minister to consult with his staff. Mr. Cummings: It is the time part of it that I do not think I can answer. It does not mean that they have been operating uncontrolled. It means that they have been operating within their original five -year plan, and those have been extende d. Ms. Cerilli: But they were operating for some period without a cut licence that had been re viewed through an environment impact assessment in the public pro cess. Is that correct? Mr.

Cummings : I think what the member is probably getting at is that she wants to know, has there been a full -blown Clean Environment Commission review and licensing of the Repap cutting area? The forestry licensing has always been handled as forestry licensing, and there has been environmental input into bridge or river crossings and streams in that sort of situation. Repap, for a short period of time, has operated on renewals. There was, I think, one brie f period when there was no renewal, but I am not sure they even did any cutting at that point or how much. Ms.

Cerilli: How does the environmental impact assessment process estimate the value of forests in their natural state that would be used to maintain soil, to provide habitat for wildlife, to ensure that there is air quality transfer through the natural process of pho tosynthesis, that kind of thing? How does the environmental impact assessment process estim ate that kind of value for the forest in the prov ince? Mr.

Cummings: Through any licensing process and decisions that the departmen ts, Environment or Forestry, might make, Province of Manitob a, we have developed a biodiversity strate gy; we have developed a fore stry strategy , which, if the member is perhaps more familiar with the water strategy and the land-use strategy for the provi nce, lays out principles and guide lines, the underlying

June 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3356 concepts that need to be applied, makes sure decisions fit within those param eters. You are asking me, do they put a dollar-and-cent price tag on it? I would suggest that is probably only done in a relative sense. I think the member is asking a question that really is a macro question, if you will , and if the member wants to debate in that respect, I guess I am more than prepared to enter into it because we can also debate the energy that is required to bring sheathing that is made out of fir logs from B.C. What is the cost of freighting that in here?

How much energy is destroyed by bringing that in here if we do not use our own local product? We could argue about, why do you import bananas? Why do we not use all Manitoba produced product, oatmeal and steak and eggs in the morning, rather than import fruit from outside of the country? It has a whole lot to do with consumers looking at affordable products , and when you talk about, is there a demand for this product, it is obviously enoiiDously in demand.

When we look at a forestry issue, obviously it becomes part of the protection of the biodiversity, the reforestation issu es that are ass ociated with it. 1bere is no question that the area that is cut will be somewhat altered, as are the urban areas of this province somewhat altered from their former pristine state . [int erjection] Well, the member is laughing . It is all right to sit here in the Legislature and talk about the environment that is in my back yard, but it is not all right to sit here and talk about what we see out the window . Point of Order Ms. Cerilli: Mr.

Deputy Chaitperson, the minister is getting all excited about what I think is possibly a misunde rstanding. I did not mean to laugh at the minister 's answer. We know that the urban environment is very altered- Mr. Deputy Chairper son: Order, please. The honourable member did not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. ••• Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Chaitperson, I was not intending to antagonize the member, although I admit to perhaps poking a little fun at her, for which I apologize, by the way.

The fact is that, to be very specific, if the member asked me, do we apply a dollar-and-cent value, the answ er is no. If there are broader issues that are part of the consideration, they are, I think, as I stated, within the policies on biodiversity, on forestry, on land use; and, certainly, even water policies and water quality ultimately end up being impacted. In fact, that might be the first place you would feel the impacts if we do not manage a lot of our fore stry issues correctly. Ms. Cerilli : This was somewhat of a technical question.

The minister has mentioned biodiversity, that there is policy in the province that we must maintain some integrity for biodiversity. What I am asking is, how does the environmental impact assess ment evaluate that and estima te that? We know that our economy does not have . economic indicators that value the trees before they are cut down, for example, in a dollar-and cent way, so I am not asking for that.

I am asking for the minister to let us kno w how the government decides how much biodive rsity we must maintain in a certain region, how much forest, for example , we need to maintain sufficient air quality and we are not going to compromise soil and we are going to maintain a certain amount in a given area for habitat for wildlife, all those kinds of issues, as well as the one that the minister raised with respect to the importance of fore sts in terms of water.

We know that there are natural values that the forest has, and what we are trying to do is not compromise that to such an extent that we are going to prevent futur e generations from benef iting in the way that we have and our forefathers and foremothers have. I would just ask the minister to clarify how the process that we are involved with in environmental impact assessment is going to make that deteiiDination. I realize that there are policies through the Endangered Spaces Campaign, which have targeted 12 percent of all the ecoregions in the province to be protecte d. That is what we are striving for.

We know that there are still a lot of concerns about the tools that we have to protect

3357 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 1994 those areas in the province. So all of those issues do come into play, but just to come baclc to the key elem ent of my question, how does the environmental impact assessment do this so that we have value placed on our forests in their natural state? •

(1530) Mr. Cumming s: Well, I suppose my answer will probably be unsatisfactory, but it is part of what is undertaken through the process of an environmental asse ssment I believ e there mig ht be a philosophical difference between what actually happens and what the member perhaps is seeking. I would assume she is saying that the pristine original condition of the area is the objective that must be the primary objective. I would have to say, if you are going to harvest in an area, you are not going to be able to achieve that obje ctive.

Theref ore, the assessm ent must look at the protection of app ropriate biodiversity. It must look at protection of sensitive areas. It must look at protection of the waterways and habitat in and around them, and it must look at what the long-term reforestation policies might be, the pro tection of wilderness aspects of areas.

Again, I have to say, and I mean this in the most collegial way, not to be offensive, but I think there is a tremendous misunde rstanding between a lot of people who live in an urban setting, as opposed to those who live in a rural area who are , and particularly in this area, already out in the bush trails cutting on some of the small allocated areas. They are already out there cutting for fe nce posts and for rails and for logs. They are already out there guiding people. They are already out there hunting and fishing and doing all the things that they see as a natural part of their area.

To some extent, when we approach the forestry people in the Swan River and the Duck Mountain areas, it is a bit-I think an analogy would be the same as going out on some of the flat prairie land around Portage Ia Prairie and saying , gee, you do not have a fore st here anymore. We ll, they did not have a forest in the first pl ace. These folks are used to forestry practices, are used to dealing with the issues of fore stry and ref orestation.

I think what we need is a calmer debate around the issues of whether or not popular -and I do not mean this particular discussion, I am talking about the shrillne ss of the debate in the broadest sense , where we have a large segment of the public that is in some respects being agitated and inflamed by things that some of us in the Legislature are saying . I think we need to be a little bit more thoughtful about the app roach that we are taking toward dealing with this industry and others . We are scaring the bell out of peop le, to put it bluntly.

Should that be the app roach that is taken by responsible leaders in this pro vince, or should we approach it in a reasonable sense that says: Can this operation be controlled, can public health be protected and can the harvesting be managed in an enviro nmentally compatible manner, given that we all agree-! think we all agree on all sides of this table-that there very likely is no question about the volumes of hardwood, i.e., poplars, that are available out there?

I am really pleading with the member across the way, if she has any influence with those who are raising fears about this issue, that we get away from raising fe ars and talk directly about what the issues are. The issues are the operatio n-c an the plant be regulated approp riately till it operates safely and can the forestry be managed in such a way that we protect it for the sustainable future of our youth? I do not mean to imply that the member at this particular moment has done or said something unwise. I am saying that I would like to take the debate to a different level. Ms.

Cerilli: I have not bought a hat or a button for anybody up there . I do not know if that is the thing the minister is referring to, but I think that that is the kind of activity that is escalating the debate . All that I think a number of people are trying to do is get the infonnation out to the public about what is going to create sustainable forestry in the region; that is what I am interested in. I am interested in

June 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3358 making sure that we are go ing to have a sustainab le forestry practice in this provi nce. I do not know if we have been very good at doing that in all areas of the province up to now. I am concerned about areas that are going to be protected in that region. It is not an ali-or-nothing thing. I am not saying that there should not be any trees cut down in Manitoba or in that region, but I think we have to e nsure that there is going to be caution exercised.

What I think we are trying to do here is trying to see what the gover nment 's definition and ap proach to sustainable forestry and licensing is going to be, how that is going to be licensed. I think it is regrettable some of the activities that have gone on up there .

I would just like to infonn the minister that I do not know if he is involved with any of the activities that have involved me and my name being used in publica tions that I did not produce, and my photograph being put on publi cations I did not produ ce, but I have also bee n, I think, maligned through all of this extensively, both by the government and by other parties; I am not sure who they are. So I just want to clarify that for the minister, that I think that a lot of the antagonism that has occurred has not been on the side that the minister has referred to or puts me on.

I think that we have been quite responsible . One final thing I want to ask the minister with respect to this area is, how does he fe el-I do not know if he has seen this magazine. I am not sure of the date on the magazine, but it is the Earthkeeper Magazine. It is a magazine put out, I believe , by the Canadian Environmental Network. I could be wrong; I am not sure about that. The magazine focuses on Canadian forestry, and it has a rundown of all the provinces and where they stand.

The magazine claims that the largest cut allocation in Canada, and possibly in the world, exists in Manitoba; that we have one of the worst records on refore station; and that we have the lowest stumpage fe es in the country. This is, I think, a concern. I would ask the minister if he wants to clarify any of those claims that have been made in that magazine, and what his attitude is to those claims? Mr. Cummings: Well, first of all, the Repap cutting area largely assum ed the cutting area that was provided by the predecessors of the member for Radisson (Ms.

Cerilli) when this area was managed under the Manfor cutting rights. It was not granted anything untow ard to Repa p in relatio nship to what was there before, which was, by the way, sucking some quarter of a billion dollars ann ually out of the Manitoba economy.

I recognize that it was predecessors of my era that also were involved in the original concepts, but certainly when you have something that is going down the toilet year after year financi ally in recent years, it was obviously demonstrating that it could not be run all that well unless pr ivate enterprise had an opportunity to bring to bear some . very tough decision-making pr ocesses. In the interim, we ended up with some thing like a $13 -milli on environmental liability at the site .

In the accusations about what cutting areas are being made available , maybe the member might reflect on the fact that there are 28 mills in On tario, 50 in Quebec, and I do not know how many in B.C. Manitoba has two mills .

It does happen that one of them has access to a large area, but remember we are talking about a northern area where your rej uvenation is slower, where the yield per acre is probably obviously different, and that really points out to where we have a lot of capability to restrict access to certain are as, to eliminate access to others, and to make sure that in the end the forest management practices are acceptab le. •

(1540) In ref erence to stumpage fe es, it should be pointed out that the agreement that was signed with Repap is one of the most proactive and encompassing reforestation agree ments with any cutting company in Canada, if not in North America, where we are requiring livability at seven years of age of the replant area. That is a very significant advancement for the protection of . reforestation in this provin ce, but I think, as with

3359 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 1994 other jurisdictions , we can always do more in terms of refo restation. There is another aspect that I find frustrating, and it has to do with ref orestation and access to cutting, which need to be put into perspective as well . We are being questioned here today to put into perspective reforestation, cutting restrictiom, licensing. Does anybody ever acknowledge those who are primarily opposed to the natural forest harvesting processe s-the enormous damage that is done by fire?

I had an opportunity to look through-and one of the reasons that forestry management practices can be adjusted, in fact, to reduce the incidence of fires is to simply recog nize the fact that where you have a high percentage of deadfall, if a fire ever gets started, it will take everything out. If ever the member for Radisson (Ms.

Ceri lli) would like to come with me on a tour of some of the bumt-out areas, particularly in the Pine Falls area and some of the ones further north that I have not yet seen, the ones that I have seen where there has been a burnt-out area, it is absolutely devastated compared to what the area looks like where it has been cut over. 1be reason is that some of these areas are on very fragile lands , and if you get a hot enough fire, there is not even any lichen left on top of the rocks for reforestation to begin.

It will take, in my view-and I have spent all my life dealing with natu re, but I am not necessarily a forester-it seems to me that it is pretty easy to show that reforestation is going to take longer on some of those bumt-out areas. So there is other input that goes into forest management licences that takes into consideration those types of concerns , or certainly those who are promoting the management of the forestry should be talking about those things, the set-aside around certain areas that are unique or along rivers.

In fact, there might be some question raised about whether those should be better managed . Better managed does not just mean leaving them alone, because if you get a high percentage of deadfall in that area and a fire in it, all of a sudden you will destroy it completely. So there is that type of consideration that we never see much debate around this table on, and I think that is an aspect that needs to be brought forward occasionally.

I am not saying that it is the primary factor that should be considered in restructuring ref oresta tion requirements or in managing cutting areas, but once you are into a situation where the environment in some of these areas has been altered, then one should not always assume that it is altered in a way that it is going to be permanently negatively impacted. It might, in fact, be altered, but it might not always be in a negative way . Ms. Cerilli: I just want to pursue this once more.

By the way, I have canoed through bumt-out areas, and I know that it certainly is disappointing when you canoe for five days and you end up in a bum you did not know was there . I have had that experience. I also know, though, that with a bum being a natural occurrence in a fore st there are differences between a burnt-out area and a clear-cut area, but I do not want to get into that too much. I just want to ask the minister if he is aware of the name of the company that was operating in the Manfor cut area prior to Manfor being there. It was a private comp any.

I think it was authorized under a Conservative government to operate , and I cannot recall right now the name of that company, but I know there were a lot of environmental problems related to their operation. I think we want to come away from that era of forestry, and I think we have to come away from that era of forestry quite quic kly. There is a lot of onus on governments currently to be forward looking. I want to ask the minister if he has seen the current bill in the B. C. Legislature, the environmental assessment act, Bill 29? I have a copy with me right now.

Earlier, the minister was ref erencing the fact that other jurisdictions in the country do not jointly review forest operations with the cut and the plant at the same time. It is quite frighteni ng, I think , to understand that B.C., with all the controversy and the extensive forestry that have gone on in that province, has been without

an act that in a consolidated way deals

June 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3360 with environmental impact ass essm ent on fo restry practices. I am wondering if the minister would review this bill, and if the department would consider doing a comparison between the Br itish Columbia proposed environmental impact assessment and the one that exists in Manitoba? I do have a number of other questions related to the process, but I am going to move from the process with respect to this fore stry area right now and just pass over to my Liberal colleague.

I think she also has some questions on this topic, but I just ask for the minister to respond to my question first . Mr. Cummings: I am not totally familiar with the amendm ents. I think I have a copy on my desk actually, but neverthe less, I understand that they sought out and actually followed our process a fair bit in the amendments of their act. I am not sure it specifically refers to the review of forestry under that act, but we try very much to keep abreast of what is going on in other jurisdictions.

I continue--in fa ct, it is maybe my fo rmer deputy who helped write-one of the ones who helped review the draft act the member is ref erring to, so I do not think it is too incompatible with the act we have here. Ms. Cerilli: Just to ask the question again, I mean, would the department consider doing some kind of comparison between Manitoba's act and the B.C. act, or maybe this has been done, and we just have to get the information with other jurisdictions? I think , for the point of clarification, this looks to me like an environmental assessment act that stands on its own.

It is not an amendment to their environment act or any other act. I think it is a separate act. Mr. Cummings: Yes, that is correct, but I would also point out that we review these change s. It is not unusual for one jurisdiction to look at what another one is doing and foll ow, but Manitoba is not out of step and, in fact, in many respects is consid er ed to be qu ite advanced in the environmental asses sment review process that we have . I would have to say, however, in the same breath that there are a lot of jurisdictions out there that are looking to make their process more accessible.

That is one of the cri ticisms of ours, that it is somewhat complicated.

There are proponents out there who feel our process is a little baffi.ing when they go up against it, so it speaks very much to the type of approach which we have taken, which is a su stainable development approach with the potential of a sustainable development act at some time in the future. • (1 550) We have undertaken to do a very detailed review in that respect largely outside of individua l departments to see where better alignment of the responsibilities on dif ferent departmenta l responsibili ties, diff erent acts, diff erent boards and commissions , where there can be a better aligning of the process so the decision-making process is complete and strong but not necessa rily as confusing as ours can be at times .

Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne) : I have had quite an education in the last hour and a half , and I have just a few questions coming out of some of the issues. We had the opportunity to meet with people from Louisiana- Pacific, I believe it was in ear ly May, and questioned them on how confident they fe lt about investing $80 million in a plant without an ongoing guarantee of access to sufficient wood to maintain this plant.

We also received the little package they had put out and in here it makes it clear that they are requiring approximately 900,000 cubic metres of logs to keep the plant operating at full operation. They also say in here that they are going to be taking over the cutting rights that have already been granted to Repap . In fact, the quote says: The agreement calls for Louisiana-Pacific to harvest hardwood such as poplar in the forest are a previously licensed to Repap. It goes on to say: Repap will retain the right to harvest or purchase softwoods such as spruce and pi ne.

Then the final statement : The agreement includes the repatriation of some of the Repap timber rights .

3361 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 1994 What are they implying there by repatriation? Do you know? Mr. Cummings: That means that the province takes back the licence, not the licence, the rights. (Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Clair) I think , without the member having asked the question, the earlier part of her comment about the ability to access softwoods when hardwoods are being harvested, et cetera, I guess as an old fanner I do not inherently see anything wrong with that.

If they are acce ssing an area and there are app ropriate softwoods available--sometimes we are talking about mixed stands-and does not impact the method of cutting or method of harvest or the requirements on the environment licence, it probably means, however, there is a little less wastage. As I understand, in cutting proc esses, to a large extent poplar might be wasted and trampled during the cutting of softwoods; conveJSely, you could end up with the reverse situation. It also has a lot to do with sizing.

Right now we have companies that cheerfully refer to themselves as scavengers who went in and took out what was consider ed undesirable material for pulpwood and/or for perhaps this system. Of course, now, with modem ability to harvest, the sizing is not as critical as it used to be for either pulping or for oriented strand board construction, although there is certainly still minimum sizes required. I do not see anything profoundly wrong with any of the comments that you just reported . Ms.

McCormick: Actually, I was not trying to imply that there was anything wrong at this point, but I did want to understand clearly that if you are taking a clear-cut approach in a mixed stand, then you are going to have the Repap people potenti ally purchasing the fel led softwoods that were taken during Louisiana-Pacific's endeavour to harvest the hardwood. Is this correct? Mr. Cummings : I think that is the case, yes. Ms. McCormick: That being said, I was interested in discovering what kinds of volumes were to be transferred with respect to annual allowable cut.

The best inf onnation I can find is from the 1991 five-year fore stry plan which indicates that there are, I believe , five forestry units which are the subject of discussion with respect to the transfer of rights. Forestry units 11 and 13, 13 being the largest one and containing the area to be logged in the Duck Mountain Provincial Parle and the Roaring and Shell Rivers. When you add up the five units, being 11, 13, 12 and 14 and then 10, the total annual allowable cut is 439, which represents about half of what would be the annual requirement for the plant.

We had questioned Louisiana-Pacific on whether there would be sufficient wood coming from the transfer of cutting rights, and they told us that there was no problem because there was going to be some other substandard wood available to them and also some private quota holders who would contribute . I was shocked when I actually got into the numbers to find out that what they are going to have to scavenge for is more than half of what they have as an ann ual requirement. Actually, there is one other factor here . Appare ntly, Louisiana Pacific will also have rights to forestry unit 43 in the Interlake.

I do not have any idea of what 43 has by way of an annual allowable cut, but is it envisioned that the addition of 43 is sufficient to bring it up to the 900,000 amount that is required for the operation of the plant? Mr. Cummings: I am not too sure that I am equipped to answ er the que stion. I would certainly take the question as notice and perhaps the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger) would take it as notice for his Estimates. I suspect that the figures the member quotes are impacted by two or three different things. One is that there may be private material available.

There may be material available from other areas that have not been refere nc ed, i.e., Saskatchewan, but there may also be some thing not quite right about those figures that the member sees could be related to what is consid ered quantifiable for saw logs and what might be available other than that. But I cann ot answer the question.

June 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3362 Ms. McCormick : That was the other part of my question. 1be ann ual allowable cut expressed in cubic metres, it is not clear whether that is for both hardwood and softwood. Mr. Cummings : We could take a stab at the answer, but I would sooner that we ask Natural Reso urces to provide precisely what that means so that there is no confusion or misinfo rmation. Ms. McCormick: I guess that brings me to my question about the wisdom of going for a two-part licence then, if some of these questions remain unanswered.

It is not apparently evident that the curre nt cutting licences or ann ual allowable cut as they are now described will be sufficient, and if in fact it will require a doubling of the allowable cut, then it sort of begs the question about bow we could get this far in the process without having the answers to these questions. Mr. Cummings: The member is attempting to characterize my answ er as saying the information is not available.

It is not available in my particular memory bank or with the staff that I have with me precisely to answ er that question, but I have no hesitancy in saying that we were provided with the details that indicated that there will be a million cubic metres of barvestable material available for them, and I am pretty certain that those answers can be answered much more precisely by Natural Reso urces. That is where the forestry expertise lies within government, and it is not duplicated in the Department of Environm ent.

It does not mean we do not have some capability to analyze what they bring forward, but the specifics of your question, I would ask that you inquire of Natural Resources or we will take it as notice and have them provide the answer. • (160 0) Ms. McCo rm ick : Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, yes, perha ps, as I will also be participating in the Natural Res ources Estimates, it would facilitate that process if you would advise them that I will be questioning in this area. 1be other aspect, though, does relate to your depar tment, and that is something that my colleague from Radisson bas already raised.

Repa p's cutting rights were in fact granted prior to or without a requirement for an environmental impact assessment. Would it be your plan, when the question of the forestry licensing comes up with Louisiana-Pacific, to require an EIA on the forest use? Mr. Cummings: The are a is licensed on a renewable basis today. As soon as we have their long-range plans in band, we will do a complete assessment. Ms. McCormick : Mr.

Acting Deputy Chair, when we met with Louisiana-Pacific in the same meeting in which we questioned them about the wisdom of proceeding on this construction without the guarantees, they indicated one reason that they did not wish to go into the double-stream li censing process was because they would be required to produce a 10-year forestry management plan and they would not have the time to do adequate work in that area or to do justice to a proper plan in the ' time line that they bad set for themselves to go through the approval process for the plant.

At that point in time, I questioned them on what was involved in producing-or what they envisioned their 10-year plan to include and was not clear from their answers as to what they envisioned. Do you believe that Louisia na-Pacif ic understands that there is an environmental impact assess ment potentially to be required of them in that second process? Mr. Cummings: Yes . I suppose the short answer is that we will tell them what they will be expected to produce. In other words, the guidelines will be laid down. It does not mean we will do it for them .

It means that we will lay down the guidelines on which they will have to produce the information to meet . It was probably fairly candid on their part to respond in that manner, but it does not mean that we have somehow lost control of the process. We , in fact, have issued them now I think the initial guidelines-pardon me, I got one jump ahead of where we are actually at. We have given them the Abitibi guidelines to look at as an example of what they will be expected to deal with. We have not issued the guidelines for that area.

3363 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 1994 Ms. McCormick: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, if I understand correctly then, depending on the outcome of the hearings to deal with construction of the plant-wh at would you anticipate to be the time line for engaging Louisiana-Pacific in the preparation of the fore stiy management plan? Mr. Cummings: I would guess that Abitibi and Repap were both examples of where it takes a lot of time up front to get going. We anticipate that they will have a year or a year and a half's worth of work to do.

We will be issuing the guideline-we will be engaging them in getting started on that within a matter of months. Ms. McCormi ck: So I am hearing you then to say that within one to one and a half years, it is likely that they will be, if not able to produce the plan, at least actively in the process of producing one. Mr.

Cummings : Well, actually, our expectations were a little higher than that We expect that they would have something pretty complete by that time, bearing in mind that-not from a regulatory point of view, but from an overall point of view, I think we have to acknow ledge that these are ongoing pl ans. As I understand the way forestry management plans evolve, they need to be changed and updated regularly. You cann ot predict where a bum might show up or other reasons-drought. Very often plans change if insects have moved into an area. All those things can require changing in a plan.

Neverthe less, they will have to do a pretty detailed plan, overall plan in the first year or 18 months. Ms. McCormi ck: Yes, I think what I was trying to get at here was that my concern arises from the identification of cutting rights to less than half of what they would need It seems to me that if that is going to become a problem, better it should become evident sooner rather than later, given that Mother Nature may also have something to say about what is cutable and what not.

I guess the last area of questioning I would like to go into is with respect to a commitment to an overall forest strategy and as it relates back to the cutting in provincial parks and provincial forests. At this point in time, it is my understanding that only 8 percent of the Duck Mountain area is actually protected from cutting rights and that the licence transferred from Repap to Louisiana Pacific, particularly with respect to forestiy unit 13, allows for a cut of 265,500 cubic metres coming out of the Duck Mountain Provincial Park.

Second ly, the concern is for the FU 14, which allows for 84,500 cubic met res and is in the Porcupine Provincial Forest. Can you tell me what you know of your department 's involvement in the development of a forestry strategy for Mani toba and

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-46a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 46a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d05356670ba8465462e2519a097d3dc04c292e95

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