Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 123 (30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-123

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGI SLA TIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANI TOBA 1:30 o'clock, Fr iday, May 10, 197 4 SUPPLY - EDUCATI ON MR . CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. 3379 MR. THOlVlAS BARROW (Flin Flon) : Thank you, Mr. Chair man. You've certainly changed your appearance since before lunch, Mr. Chairman. It must be that cheap rye they serve now. Mr. Chair man, I'll repeat that last paragraph. I think it's important and it· won't hurt to have the record. In terms of practical results in the school, Frontier's record is deplor able.

Last September of the total school enrollment of 5, 245, only 58, or 1. 1 percent, were enrolled in Grade 12. Given past performance we'll be lucky if half that number graduate. Even if they do graduate, what is their future? The program operated by Frontier trains stu dents to leave the community, and when they leave they find they are totally ill- equipped to deal with the outs ide world. Those who remain, or return, have been trained to do nothing except receive welfare payments. They are caged in a never- ending land, where they have no right to even have expectations. The situation at the school, Mr .

Chair man, is recognized by some of the teachers. We have different degrees of teachers, different ways of teaching. I've never been a fr iend to teachers since they turned down the right to strike. But neverthe less, Mr. Ch airman, the three teachers concerned at Frontier, two are so frustrated they are to resign their positions and go in the mining area. One is going to resign because the system as he sees it is very dishonest. Mr. Chair man, the educational system serving our remote northern communities is not the prior preserve of the Winn ipeg-based central bureaucracy in the Frontier school division.

It is rather the vehicle which should be controlled by the people it is supposed to serve, the vehicle which should enable them to develop themselves and their communities, which should decrease their dependency on the rest of the province, and which would free our people and have them become equal, partic ipating members of society. This is not happening, Mr. Chair man, on the Frontier 's administration, nor will it happen . I have therefore no alternative but to advocate in the strongest possible terms a com plete revamp ing of the public school system in the remote northern communities. A MEM BER : Right on.

MR . BARR OW: An d at the same time to express to my coll eagues in government my intention to pursue this crucial matter with all the force and energy at my command until it is dealt with in a manner satisfactory to our people in the north, rather than to the satisfaction of the Frontier administration.

I want to see our education system in the north pursue a course of action which will have the schools controlled by the communities: where the total community will be involved in education; where the education system plays a leading role in attacking problems of nutrition, housing, creating employment, and other social economic factors; where the talents and cul tures of people are valued and utilize d as vital and irreplaceable components in the school pro gram, rather than downgraded as they now are.

In short, I want this government to develop an alternative to the present educational system in the remote northern communities, and I want it done as soon as poss ible, Mr . Chairman. I want it designed in such a way that the people will be able to use this al ternative educational system to develop their own alternatives to situations which they have to contend with in all aspects of the ir lives. In clos ing, I would like to advise this As sembly that I am not speaking as one lonely backbencher. I'm speaking on behalf of six northern MLA s, all of whom support and have added to every word to what I've said.

We also want to remind you that in March, 1973, our government publish ed Guidelines for the Seventies. On Page 12 of Volume 1 you will find the following paragraph. "Furthermore and perhaps more important the guidelines involved a firm commitment .. . " MR. CHAIRM AN: On a point of order, is ... MR. J. W. McKENZIE (Robl in): Mr. Chair man, on a point of order is it standard pro cedure for a member to read into the record the written statements re the estimates? MR . CHAIRMAN: That is not a point of order. MR . McKEN ZIE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I again ask you - that is a point of order - and ask you to review it.

MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order it is correct that the rules of the House

3380 May 10 , 1974 SUPPLY - EDUCA TION (MR. GREEN cont'd) ..... do not permit the delivery of written speaches . Fro m time to time, Mr. Chairman, members in consideratio n of other members, especially when important statements are made, then I know that the Member for Flin Flon speaks almost exclusively extemporaneously; he probably is following his notes relative to something to which he wants to give specific emphasis to.

But if the honourable member wishes to embarrass other mem bers in this way, then I say that there is more embarrassment on that si de of the House vis-a vis written speeches than there is on this si de, and he should gauge his remarks very carefully in that respect. MR. McKEN ZIE : Mr. Chairman, on the same point of order. I well recognize the rules of the House. I well recognize that Cabinet Ministers and others that are reading policy into the--(Interjection) --that's fine then, Mr.

Chairman, on the same point of order that new members - I've been here some time and we recognize the fact that som e of the new members that come into the House that are not familiar with the rules, deserve that type of consideration on speeches, but it's my understanding that unless it's a Cabinet Minister, or somebody that hasn't been here, that's new, that the member should be able to express himself . MR. GREEN : Mr. Chair man, I say that the Honourable Member for Flin Flon as a new member, speaks almost exclusively without notes and extemporaneously. That that is his general style.

I presume that he wishes to deal with a particular subject in a manner which he wants to specifically not be mi sunderstood, and allowances are made in that regard. I'm tel li ng the honourable member that som e of the oldest and more exper ienced members in the House are the ones who exclusively use notes, and they are on that si de of the House. If he wishes this matter brought to the attention every time a member does it, then it will be embar rass ing for the point of view of his members, not the member for Flin Flon. MR. McKENZIE: Then, Mr.

Chairman, on the same point of order, in the final, so therefore from now on, it's par for the course that we all come in and read from written state me nts and could be asked to table them from here on in. MR. CHAIRMAN : The honourable member is following his notes closely I would say. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prair ie) : I think every member in this House at one time or another has followed notes very closely. I say I believe, Mr.

Chair man, that every member in this House at one time or another has followed notes very closely, and if the Member for Flin Flon wishes to read a prepared statement or speech, I think that we should be courteous enough to let him be heard in that .manner. I see nothing wrong with that. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. BARR OW: Thank you, Mr. Chair man. I will quote from the Guidelines for the Seventies on Page 12, Volume 1, and you will find the following paragraph.

"Fu rthermore, and perhaps more important, the guidelines involve a firm comm itment by the governme nt to apply these principles in the form of concrete practical programs initiated for the purpose of overcomin g many of the key obstacles to the improveme nt of Manitoba's soc ial and economic environment by the end of the decade. " We are nearly now halfway through this decade, Mr. Speaker, and as my friend, my honourable friend from Roblin has often said, we are laying it on the table, our cards are on the table, and we the northern MLAs in this government intend to keep our commi tment.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. McKEN ZIE : Mr. Chair man, on the same point of order. I did not say that. All I said, that the rules are being bent today. MR. CH AIRMAN: That is not a point of order. The Honourable ... MR. GRE EN: ... point out to the Honourable Member for Roblin, that the rules are bent by the Leader of the Opposition every time he delivers a Budget Speech Address or a Throne Speech Address, which he reads almost exclusively. MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River) : Mr. Chairman, on the same point of order, the Honourable Leader of the House . . . MR . CHA IRMAN : That is not a point of order.

Order please. MR. BILTON: Ar e you extending me the same privi lege you gave to the Leader of the House, Si r ... MR. CH AIRMAN: He did not have a point of order. MR. BILTON: I am not going to reply to that ..•. MR. CHAIRMAN: He did not have a point of order. He can't reply to ... MR. BILTON: Well, the Honourable Leader of the House knows perfectly well that the

May 1 0, 1974 SUPPLY - EDUCATI ON (MR. BILTON cont'd) .. ... important pos ition of the Leader of the Opposition has . MR . CHAIRMA N : That is not a point of order. Ord er. Order please. MR . BILTO N : ... it's his privilege and right to read if he wishes to. MR . CHA IRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR . BILTON: ... the rules, the First Minister does it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Membe r for St. Ja mes. 3381 MR. MINAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair man. I would like to let the House know that I have a few notes that are strictly for guidelines.

They contain a few figures that I wouldn't want to be misquoted on, and I assure you I will only use them as a figure guide to make sure I cover all points. Mr. Chair man, I was interested when the Minister of Education indicated that with the grant system that they presently operate under, the government operates under, that they were picking up I think he said 72 percent of the cost of education, and I would agree with the Minister that the government is picking up 72 percent of the education costs or thereabout last year if one takes the property tax rebate and uses it 100 percent for education costs.

But I would sug gest to the Minister he better speak to the First Mi nister, better speak to the Mini ster of Mi nes and Natural Resources, he better speak to the Finance Min ister and tell them he's taking the 100 percent of that education or as it is now worded, property tax rebate, because when we talk about expenses for urban or municipal governments increasing to operate the services that these governments are providing, or cities, or towns, we get a pat answer back. Aha, but we're prov iding a property tax rebate program. And I would suggest, Mr .

Chair man, that I would agree 72 percent last year, because the actual school financial grants that were provided to the schools in Man itoba was somewhere in the order of 144 million doll ars.

And if we took somewhere in the order of about 55 percent of the tax rebate system that was allotted to our citizens, some 42 million dollar s, if we took about 55 percent of that which would represent somewhere in the order of I believe 23 mill ion dollars for the City of Winnipeg citizens, and we added it to the amounts of money that were granted to us from the School Finance Board - the 144 mill ion - if we took about 55 percent of it, we 're looking at around 78 million dollar s, then the total contribution, this is taking 100 percent of that tax rebate program last year for the City of Winnipeg, if we added the two together we'd get a contribution from the government of some 103 million dollar s.

But the actual cost for education last year in the City of Winnipeg was in the order of some 13 9 million dollars . So we get a figure of about 72 percent. But, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that the Minister who is responsible for Munic ipal or Urban Affairs, the Finance Minister and the Honourable Mi nister of Mines and Natural Resources shouldn 't stand up and say that they, aha, but the costs have risen in the City of Winnipeg, the costs have risen in Gladstone and Morris but we have a tax rebate program. Because they're using that rebate program twice. And I suggest, Mr.

Chair man, that you can not squeeze the orange and get juice out of it twice. You can't empty the piggy bank on one department and turn around when we're dealing with another department and say you're using the same rebate for that department, because it's not true and if the government continues to put this forward to the publ ic then I suggest that they're misleading the public, they're conning the publ ic. Mr. Chair man, this year alone in the City of Winnipeg, if we take a same relative figure, I think there's 11 8 thousand ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR . CH AIRMAN: Order please.

Could I just interrupt the honourable member to announce that we have a class of 13 students in the galleries from the Greenway High School in Min neapol is, United States, Grade 11 and Grade 10 standing, under the direction of Mr. Schmitt. On behalf of all the members I welcome you here today. The Honourable Member for St. James. SUPPLY EDUCATION Cont'd MR . MINAK ER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that in this year's costs for education in the City of Winnipeg - and I have to use these figures because I do not have available to me the total estimated cost for education for all of the provinces - but of the actual taxes that have to be raised by the City of Winn ipeg for educational costs, the actual taxes that are put on the property owners this year, will total some 72 million doll ars.

3382 May 10, 1974 SUPPLY - EDUCA TION (MR. MINAKER cont'd) ..... Now if we assume that the grants that were received under the present grant structure for education, if we get 55 percent of this, thereabouts, of the 144 million doll ars, we're looking at an 80 mill ion dollar grant for the City of Winnipeg, making the total cost of education in Winnipeg Proper some 152 million doll ars.

Now, if we also assume that the eight million dollars additional rebate that is proposed by the government this year, making a total of 50 mill ion dollars, it would mean that the City of Winnipeg citizens would probably receive somewhere in the order of 27 million dollar s, maybe 28 . Somewhere in that order. I think that's fairly accurate. Then there's a total contribution of somewhere in the order of 107 million dollars by the Finance Board and the rebate program towards educational costs in the City of Winnipeg.

Now, we're taking 100 percent of that tax rebate for education, because that's what the Minister said earlier in his presentation the other day, that they were picking up 72 percent of costs of education. And I think th at's an important note. The education department has said we're taking all of that tax rebate, the property tax rebate; nothing left for the municipal ities, nothing left for urban governments. As was suggested by the First Mi nister, as was suggested by the Mi nister of Finance and as was suggested in this House by the Mi nister of Mi nes and Natural Resources.

Th en, if we do apply that particular grant, all for education in the City of Winnipeg, then we have somewhere in the order of costs for education this year, somewhere in the order of some 15 0 million dollar s. That 's what it's going to cost us for education. And we take and total everything up, then I would suggest when we add that 107 million to the figure of 150 mill ion, they're picking up somewhere in the order of, oh, we'll say 65 percent of the taxes. So we're not picking up 72 percent as they suggest.

But the key point is, both departments are trying to use that tax rebate program and I would suggest that that is wrong to imply that both can use it 100 percent. So now let's get down to the nitty gritty. What percentage of that rebate that's going to you and I and the rest of the citizens of Manitoba, what percentage is going for education, what percentage is go ing for urban costs that each Minister has claimed from time to time in this House?

Because, we give 50 pe rcent of that rebate program for education, we're looking at 14 million dollar s, that's what we're looking at towards education in the City of Winn ipeg; 14 million dollars of that supposed 28 million that will go back to the citizens of Winnipeg. And if we add that to the 80 mill ion that we know the Finance Board pro vides for education, that's roughly 55 percent of the 144 million dollar s, then the total contri bution from the government, Mr. Ch airman, is some 94 mill ion dollar s.

But we know that the cost of education in the City of Winnipeg this year is going to be some where in the order of some 150, 152 million dollars . Then I would suggest the government is picking up somewhere in the order of some 60 percent of the cost of education, not 72 percent. So let's have the actual figures, Mr. Chair man. Let 's find out what contribution of the tax rebate program is going, in the opinion of the government, towards education, what part of the tax rebate program is going to the municipal governments for rel ief.

Because we've heard it argued here in the House by the three or four Ministers that, you know, we don't have to worry about the education costs going up for the homeowner because they're getting back $150. 00 at least, for education. But we also hear the First Minister stand up and say we don't have to--y ou know, it's fine, "You've indicated that the cost of running the City of Winnipeg and other urban areas have gone up, and municipal ities, but we've got the !50-dollar tax rebate. " I suggest, Mr.

Chair man, you can't pull out money out of an empty piggy bank if one department has alr eady taken credit for 100 percent of that rebate, and I would ask the Minister just what his other fellow Ministers have said, or has he even talked to them ? Because there would appear to be a communication breakdown.

If the Education Depar tment does n't have claim to this rebate, then I would suggest that we're looking at the property owner picking up somewhere in the order--and it's probably in the order of some 55 percent of the cost of edu cation; the government is picking up 55 percent of the cost of education rather than the claim of 72. And I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that it's fine the government let the people of Man itoba know the facts of what education costs are and what they are paying towards it, rather than using and hiding behind a property tax rebate program , which one department claims is the solution to their problems and the other department in turn claims the same amount for their department, because I would suggest, Mr. Chair man, that this is wrong. It would weaken the people of Manitoba, and it's not fair, and I say they are conning the people of Manitoba with such statements.

May 10, 1974 3383 SUPPLY - EDUCATI ON (MR . MINAKER cont'

d) Mr. Ch airman, if we look at the costs of education in the City of Winnipeg and what has happened in the past year , the actual tax that the City of Winnipeg collected towards education last year was $59 million. This year they're going to have to raise some $7 2-1 /2 million for education costs, up some $12-1 /2 million. And what does the government put towards that?

Even if they use 100 percent of the property tax rebate, the $8 million additional money that the Premier indicated he was putting towards this property tax rebate to cover costs of increase in education costs and so on, even if we use 100 percent of that rebate towards increased cost of education, and we take that 55 percent of the eight million, you're looking at somewhere around 4. 6, 4-1 /2 million dollars. That's 100 percent of that increased rebate.

They're putting to wards this increased cost of education in the City of Winnipeg $4-1 /2 million, of which 12-1 /2 is the actual cost increase, and yet the Minister stands up and says we're paying 72 percent of the cost of education. Hogwash! I don't believe it, and nobody else in the Province of Manitoba will believe it, because it's not true.

It's been shown that if you apply all these costs you're still not picking up more than 65, 60 percent, that's if you take 100 percent of the property tax rebate, and I suggest if that's what the government wants to do, fine, but then don't stand up, and don't the Ministers stand up and say, when we talk about the ris ing costs in the municipal and urban government, say, \\Well, we have the tax rebate program for property owners, " because it's all used up for education costs. And what has happened in the City of Winnipeg with education costs this year ? Well, I know in my own constituency of St.

James , the education cost is increased by 10. 6 mills, and an average homeowner of $6, 000 assessment - and that's a very low relative moderate type of home - will be paying $48 . 00 more this year for education costs. If you take - or correction, they'll be paying $63. 00 more for education costs. And what has happened in the urban increased costs? They'll be paying another eight mills, so they'll be paying $48. 00, so a home owner with an assessment of some $6, 000 will have to pay $1 11. 00 more taxes this year. But what does the government say?

They stand up and say, "Well, we have taken the tax rebate program, we're giving $150. 00 to $250. 00 back. " But you can't split it both ways. If you're going to spli t it part of it for the education costs and part of it for the municipal costs, then I suggest that the Minister better stand up and correct his figure of 72 percent, because it's wrong. It's right if you use 100 percent for the property tax rebate for education, but don't use it for both. And, Mr. Chairman, what has happened in our different areas in Winnipeg ? Well, I'll tell you what's happened.

The education costs have increased in my own area some 45 per cent over last year. In the area like St. Boniface it's increased 38-1 /2 percent; in another area of River East it's increased 57. 9 percent over last year. This is the amounts that have to be raised for school fees, school expenses. Total expenses. This includes the foundation levy, it includes all those that are payable to the school divisions - This is what they've increased the costs of. Mr. Chairman, how can the government stand up and say that, you know, we're picking up 72 percent of the cost, because they're not.

They're not, even if they credit 100 percent of that tax rebate program to education, they're not. And in my own area, of the increased costs the foundation levy has picked up two percent, two percent of the actual taxes that will be charged to the people in St. James. The school levy has increased to a po int where they will pick up two percent, that's all. The grants will pick up two percent.

If you look at the Ci ty of Winnipeg, the overall partic ipation by the government in sharing the costs of education is down somewhere in the order of 4. 4 percent; they're not even in the same ratio or propo rtion providing the costs. And I've used City of Winnipeg, but I'm sure that if you're in Killarney or you're in Brandon or you're in Morr is they're proportionate; they're facing the same problem. --(I nterjection)-- I can't answer the Minister on Churchill River. I'm not sure. I don't have those figures before me.

But what my point is, that don't stand and hide behind the property tax rebate program because that is obviously not the answer to the problem that faces the people of Manitoba at this point in education costs and the sharing of costs, because if you're going to take 100 percent of that tax rebate program, then I suggest you talk to your First Min ister and say to him that "I've got all of that tax rebate program for my credit, " and tell him to stop saying in this House that it's for part of the urban government increased costs and the municipal cost because it can't be, if you're taking all 100 percent of it.

3384 May 10, 1974 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. MINAKER cont'

d) I suggest you talk to the Minis ter of Finance and tell him the same thing; and I suggest you talk to the Mini ster of Mines and Natural Resources and tell him this. Be cause if you don't then obviously the government wants to hoodwink the publ ic of Manitoba into beli eving that they're picking up the costs of education in this province to the tune of 72 percent, which they're not; that they're picking up part of the costs of urban and municipal governments through this rebate program, which they're not. So let's have these facts, Mr. Chair man.

Let's find out wl".at the total publ ic school system budget is for Man itoba in the estimates of the government, and let us know what the expected amount to be raised in the Province of Man itoba through the foundation levy is, and tell us, you know, about what the expected amount to be raised for special levies are in all of the towns this year, the total budget.

Let's have that answer, what percentage in the opinion of the Cabinet of the tax rebate program that they so gladly pat them selves on the back, or what percentage in their estimate is going and credited to education; what percentage is credited to the urban cost increases ? Because right now, what the Mi nister has said, is 100 percent of it is credited to education. And that, Mr.

Speaker, is not correct, and I would suggest that the Minister, if he wants to stay with this argument that all of it goes towards education, then he'd better talk to his coll eagues and straighten them out, particularly the First Minister, who keeps claim ing that even though the costs in the Ci ty of Winnipeg have risen 45 percent in three years, the tax rebate, the property tax rebate will correct that. But, on the other hand, the Minister sits there and says that he's got it all. So which one has got it all ?

All I know is, it doesn't matter who's got it all, I know who's paying for it all and that's the citizens of Manitoba, and they're paying for it and they're regretting that they have to pay for it, because all of a sudden the government pats itself on the back that we're giving back $50 mill ion. Mind you, it's costing us $6 00, 000 a year to give it back.

I suggest, why take it in the first place, and leave it with the people, and I'm sure we can work something out and put the money, the $600, 000 that you're spending for administration of the distribution of this money, put it towards education and br ing down a bit of that tax instead of patting one's self on the back and kidding the publ ic in Manitoba that this money they're handing out is not only for education but it's also for urban and municipal costs, because one of these has to decide which it's for, or at least share it. Don't say that both of these have got it 100 percent because it's not true. MR .

CH AillMAN : The Honourable Member for Lakes ide. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr . Chairman, I rise at this occasion some what reluctantly because-- (Interjection)--Well, as a member that has not been pr ivy to the debate from its outset with respect to the debate that we're on, namely the Minister's salary, in the Department of Education, I always have some misgivings about entering into a debate midstream, particularly when one has unfortunately been absent for part of that time.

I've been suffering from a slight attack of the Bubonic Pla gue and have not been able to be in the Ch amber in the last few days. And so my remarks, Mr . Ch airman, may somewhat be red un dant, may not always take into consideration those very good remarks made by previous speakers, particularly like the speaker that has just spoken, and who has posed I think some particularly valid questions to the Mi nister, and whatever I have to say I would hope would not be lost, that he would take the necessary time to make the specific answers to the specific questions asked by the Member for St.

James with respect to the rebate system and who in fact claims the full credit for, or where the full credit for that rebate system should li e. But, Mr. Speaker, sometimes, you know, a day or two absence from this Chamber is refreshing in that when you come back you don't really apprec iate where you are. I li stened with utter amazement, Mr.

Chairman, to the Mi nister flying in high in third gear or some thing like that, when I sat down in this Chamber, to his description of the general educational scheme, and I couldn't believe my eyes, couldn't believe my ears, I couldn 't believe that he was actually trying to say that black was white and white is red and what have you, and I thought surely that something, something had transp ired in the few days that I had been absent in this Ch amber that I was totally unaware of. Because, Mr.

Chairm an, you know, the Minister, the Mi nister stood up in his place and really it makes one real ize that perhaps it was a mistake to make that rule change in the first instance, that Ministers be allowed to occupy the front row you know. I think maybe if he would have stayed in his or iginal seat it would have been a little bit more acceptable.

May 10, 197 4 3385 SUPPLY - EDUCATI ON (MR. ENNS cont'

d) But, Sir, he began in an attack in his general remarks, which I must say, which I must assume has been the tenor of his remarks in reply ing to oppos ition members up to now, in a way that just completely dumbfounded me. Mr. Chair man, the Conservative Party of the decade of the Sixties will not be remembered for its digging of the ditch around Winnipeg, or its prob lems with CF I, or indeed its problems with Southern Indian Lake or what have you. If there's one thing - and, Mr.

Ch airman, I have to demand and take the time of the Committee, if nothing else but in the memory of perhaps one of the greatest Mi nisters of Education this province has ever seen and had, and I'm spe aking of Dr. George Johnson, that this Minister and this adminis tration should take the time of this Chamber, time of this Committee, to lecture the Progressive Conservative Party, the previous administration, about our derelict ion, our negligence, our lack of responsibili ty in the field of education. Well, Mr. Chairman, that is so pr eposterous that it denies denies description. Mr.

Ch airman, if there is one thing, if there is one thing that historians will record, one thing that historians will remember of the Sixties, is the fact of the dedication, the priority rating given by the then admin istration to the field of education. And that just simply, that just simply cannot be denied. An d, Mr. Chairman, I can, you know, I can expect an attack coming from different quarters, but I don't expect that coming from somebody who has been part of that revolution that took place in the Sixties. Mr.

Chair man, I rose and interjected in a bantering way during the Min ister s remarks that I too at one time had been a teacher. Yes, I was a teacher. Left with the legacy of the do-nothin g Li beral Party, which was prepared, which was prepared to see education relegated down to the status where it took upwards to 1, 500, 2, 000 permit teachers, green kids wet behind the ears out of Grade 11 high school, to have to man our schools. That was the kind of educa tional system that the Progres sive Conservative Party inherited when we took office, and I really seriously challenge the Minister.

He cannot be serious, Mr. Chairman. If he wants to stand up and suggest that we stood for an educational system that was bent, that was designed, that was engineered to bring education to ... a few, Sir, that is an absolute insult to the kind of dedication that was brought to education in the Sixties. That, Sir, is an insult to the kind of people that worked in the Department of Education in the Sixties, Sir, that built the schools, yes and destroyed and took away some of those red school houses that my Honourable Member for Swan River likes to talk about every once in a while.

But we built and brought in the unitary divisions at tremendous political cost from time to time, and we were a government that were prepared to face up to the political costs at that time, not back away as this Min ister does whenever there is a little irate group of parents that say now, you know, we want to preserve our little school, and, you know, it is in Ninette or wherever it is now; we'll reconsider the whole education policy because of a little bit of political pressure brought upon the Minister of the day. Mr.

Speaker, what we had in the Sixties was a dedication to the idea of equalizing of educational opportunities to all the children of Mani toba, and we had the guts and determination to bring that about. An d for the Minister, Mr. Chairman, for the Mi nister to make the kind of remarks that he made from his seat, just are inexcusable, just are inexcusable. Mr. Chair man, we are not qualified academic expert people in th is Ch amber, and it's not for us to debate the details of curriculums offered. Our job in this Chamber, Sir, is to develop broad polic ies.

One of the broad policie s facing us in the '60s was just simply to bring physically the structure, the capabil ity, the capacity of education to most, hopefully all, children in the Province of Manitoba. An d, Sir, we did that. An d that required the building of roads, that required the building of schools, that required the bringing up the whole status of the profession of the teaching education, and we did that. A MEM BER: Right. MR . ENNS: I listened with some, you know, some satisfaction to the Member from Flin Flon speaking.

He speaks to me about his concerns, and they're good concerns, about how the educational system is reaching people that he is concerned about in the remote and isolated parts of Mani toba, and I think he has every reason to be concerned about them. But, Sir, and he mentions that of 5, 000 or 7, 000 students only so many are going on to higher education. Well, Sir, I asked him and I think he should remember who brought the possibili ty of education to those five or seven thousand students in the first plac e through the erection of the Frontier Division.

3386 SUPPLY - EDUCATION A MEM BER: The Robl in government. A MEMB ER: You did. MR . ENNS: Well certainly you didn't help to do a great deal about it. A MEMBER : No, Sir. May 10, 1974 MR . ENNS: Mr. Speaker, when you talk about doing something about br inging about equality of education, educational opportunities throughout rural Manitoba, and the Member for St.

Matthews knows this, if you want to talk about bringing types of courses and programs in some equal izing way with the better off, namely the larger urban centres, to the spread-out part of this province, then surely you can't condemn the efforts of the previous administration for their attempt at doing it. And, Mr. Chairm an, I know that we sometimes denigrate our selves in this Ch amber by not br inging about the levels of debate to the level I think the people of Manitoba expect that we should from time to time.

But, Sir, we're led by the government of the day, and in this particular debate we're led by the Mi nister of the day, and he surely cannot feel in any way satisfied to a level that he has led us in this current debate.

Sir, if there are curriculum problems, if the fast-ch anging scene of education is such that the system that many dedicated people within the Department of Education and many dedi cated trustees and politic ians went out, spoke for, encouraged the general population to raise the necessary funds for, even if it meant, you know, the kind of political consequences of seeing adverse effects on a small town because it was necessary to build the kind of a school in an opposing town or a larger town, but to provide the kind of education that was necessary that it had to be done, then surely those are the broad framework, the broad areas of policy that we in this Chamber have to debate.

I'm not prepared to debate with either members of the staff sitting in front of the Honourable Mi nister as to crossing the t's and dotting the i 's on every particular part of the kind of curriculum that should be offered. Sir, that is our jot; to pass the kind of moneys necessary; to hire the very best people in the educational field; to see that those people are enthused and willing to work for a better educational system in Man itoba; to maintain and retain them in our system; and, Sir, from time to time they will be criticized. Their results will be criticized.

Pressures will be put upon us as individual members from parents, from just the general results of an educational system, and policy changes will be reflected in this House. But I resent, Mr. Chair man, the kind of approach the Mini ster has taken up to now in his Estimates. To deny, and not to recognize, you know, the one particular area--Quite frankly, Sir, if nothing else, you know, that I will be satisfied at having had an opportun ity to serve in the publ ic arena, what it was to be part of the Duff Roblin administration, that did more than any administration this province has ever seen insofar as seeing to

(1) That we initially recognized the necessity for, if we're going to have an educational system, that we have to have teachers, and he then put in the necessary funds. We acceded to the legitimate demands of the Teachers Soc iety, that you can't make teachers out of Grade 11 students overnight, and that really the whole profession of teaching had to be elevated up. And you had to do that with the necessary dollars, and you had to do that with the necessary educa tional qualifications. And certainly all that took place in the decade of the '60s .

(2) That you couldn't expect or attract people to enter into the teaching profession and to remain in the teaching profession unless you provided the physical structures for them to feel comfortable with and to feel that they could deliver the goods with. And certainly we did that, Sir, whether we developed the Unitary Divisions or the secondary level first, then on the ele mentary level, often, often at considerable politic al consequences to ourselves.

Sir, I can recall coming into this Chamber at the same time as the Honourable Member from El mwood, the now Mi nister of Public Works, who now occup ies the position of the Mi nister of Public Works, and he used to enjoy making speeches from this side of the House chastising the then Mi nister of Education, Dr. George Johnson, about the lack of research, about the lack of imagination, about the lack of innovation that was taking place in the Department of Education in those days.

And you know, really, I have to say this, if my memory serves me correct, that the Minister of the day did not particularly challenge the member that indeed we were doing everything that we should be doing in terms of research, that we were doing everything that we should be doing in terms of innovation. No, Mr .

Chair man, the fact of the matter is that we were so damn busy, we were so preoccupied with the fundamental problems of simply providing the vehicle of education, of building the roads, of providing the necessary funds, that we did not have perhaps the luxury that this Minister now has of indulging in numerous reports, CO RE

May 10, 1974 3387 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. ENNS cont'd) ..... Reports, what have you, and re-e xamining his whole curriculum and re-e xamining the position that education should take as we approach the mid-Seven ties. Mr. Ch air man, my comments today will not take issue with those efforts at all.

I think the Honourable Mi nister, if he were in any way honest, if he were in any way interested in the educational system of Man itoba, he would have to surely, instead of the kind of, you know, instead of the kind of base partisanship that we've heard from him today, he would have to say, "Thank God, Thank God for a previous administration." You know, thank God for the previous people in the admin istration that basically set up the structures that built the roads, built the schools, built the regional colleges, built the over-all physical structures that he can now sit back and allow himself the luxury of looking at how can we further improve a system, a system that needs constant looking into, that needs constant improvement.

Well, Mr. Ch airman, we surely didn't get that from this Minister. We didn't get that from this Min ister at all. Well, Mr. Chairman, you know, we wonder sometimes why there's a kind of degree of acrimony and bitterness in this Chamber. We wonder sometimes why there is the kind of abuse that takes place in this Chamber. Mr. Speaker, the kind of performance that the Minister has been giving us, you know, should at least go some distance to explain the reason for the kind of performance that we have all too often in this Chamber. Mr. Chair man, I don't know.

The Honourable Member from Flin Flon, the Honourable Membe r from St. Matthews, they have taken time in the committee to suggest to the Honourable Minister that, you know, he is not necessarily the fountain of wisdom, the last fountain of wisdom in terms of the kind of educational programs that we should be offering in this Province of Manitoba. I think that should offer him some moments of sobering thought. Mr.

Chair man, Iw ould have hoped that a Mi nister that is ensconced in the government, that is privy to working with revenues twice, nay more than twice, that of its predecessor, should be talking to us about the kind of innovative programs, expansion of the existing programs, delv ing out into new areas of service in the educational field, rather than taking cheap political potshots at what, up to now, has been certainly probably the best educational system this province, these people livi ng in Manitoba, could afford. Not the best - there's no such thing as the best.

Not the last answer in education - there's no such thing as the last answer in education. But from the Minister of Education in the Province of Manitoba, I surely expect more than what he has given up to now. I would like, for instance, Mr. Chairman, to hear from the Honourable Mi nister of Education, not simply in expounding his feel ings or arguments about whether or not the old system was archaic, or not meeting the needs of the day, or whether you fail in two grades or two subjects was sufficient for cancellation out of the whole year and the student having to go over again.

I'd like to hear some, you know, some new representation on the part of the Minister about what new areas he is going to go into as the Min ister of Education. I'd like to know, Mr. Speaker, what his response is to the brief that was represented to him by the Winnipeg School Division No. 1, with respect to the problem of the multiple -handicapped retar ded children. Now the Minister knows whereof I speak.

He's been on national televis ion on this parti cular subject. -- (Interjection)-- Well the Honourable Min ister says, "Read Hansard." These are one of the penalt ies, these are one of the penalties that I have. He's but to nod from his seat right now. Will the particular instance that he and I are both aware of be covered under the expansion of program that he suggests that he is making ?

Will the Minister nod to me right now in his seat and say that one Stephen Ne il, who is severely handicapped but who under a pilot program that is be ing carried on in the Winnipeg School Division has been indicated could be brought into the system and could be helped to some extent ? Will he nod from his seat right now that the program - he suggests that all I have to do is read Hansard. Will he nod from his chair that this one particular student, or students like him, can and will be helped in the future, in the very near future, by expansion of the educational system? Mr. Ch airman, I hear silence.

I hear scribblin g of the pen. A ME MBER : Read Hansard. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Hansard is not before me. Surely we're not playing this kind of a game. Surely, Mr. Chair man, when we're talking about handicapped children, we don't have to talk about reading Hansard. Can't the Mi nister get up in his Chair and tell me? MR. PA ULLEY: You didn't give a damn about them. MR. ENNS: Well, now we have the big story from the Minister of Lab our. I'll tell you

3388 May 10 , 197 4 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR . ENNS cont'd) ..... why we didn't give a damn about it, because we had to build a school first. We had to build a school first and we had to build roads first to get people li ke that to schools. And you know that. You know that. I want to ask the Honourable Minister of Education first before the late House Leader, the some time House Leader of the New Democratic Party interjects. I simply ask him again. He made a reference that I should read Hansard.

Does that suggest to me that my remarks in this particular affair are redundant and I don't have to pursue the case any more? That the brief presented by the Winn ipeg School Division has been generally accepted by the Depar tment of Education and that in the coming year at least, or in the very near future, that students like Stephen Neil, it will be poss ible to accept them within the school system with the necessary support from the Prov ince of Manitoba ? Is that what the Minister is telling me? Mr. Chairman, I see smoke puffing out of his pipe, I hear scratching of his pens, but I hear no sign of assent.

I hear no sign of assent, I see no sign of assent. -- (Interjection)-- Well, Mr. Ch airman, the Honourable Mi nister chooses to, you know, maybe take advantage of the fact that I was not here a day or two ago, and that's his privilege of course. I recognize the Minister does not have to answer to any spec ific or

part icular charge, but, Mr. Chai rman, this is but one example, but one example of a government, you know, of a government . . . If we found it possible, Mr. Chairman, with a budget of some $37 4 million - that was the total budget of the Provincial Government the last year I was in office - $37 4 million. Under that kind of a budget, Sir, we found it possible, Sir, to provide school bus transportation, a new venture under the Foundation Program which this Mi nister says was nothing.

We found it possible, Sir, to provide new teaching aids, setting up a Foundation Program which provided for a whole host of new services throughout the rural parts of Manitoba. We found it possible, Sir, to establ ish technical schools throughout the Province of Manitoba. We, Sir, found it possible to considerably bump up and br ing under the University Grants Commission an entire new level of support for the higher level of education in this prov ince. All that, Sir, was done under a budget of $37 4 million.

Now this Mi nister operates under a national or total provincial budget of some $800 mill ion, and I'm asking what significant increases, what expansion, what new programs has he brought into the educational system. And, Mr. Chairman, I'm not prepared to get into the kind of arguments with him as to whether or not a student should be re stricted to this course or that course, or whether the CO RE Report is good or bad. Sir, I am not quite personally qual i fied to make those kind of comments. A MEMBER: That 's right. MR . ENNS: Right. That's fine. That 's fine.

I'm prepared to hire the best people to help me in doing that, and if they don't do the job that they should do, I'm prepared to fire them. And that, Sir, as far as I'm concerned, is the responsibil ity of a legislator, a govern ment or administration. But I'm not prepared to, as the Minister is attempting to do in a woefully weak way, convince some of us about, you know, the kind of, you know, detailed philo sophical intent of the

part icular curriculum that he's now being fed by members of his department. Well, Mr. Ch airman, the Minister of Education, I hope, will answer specifically, will answer specifically to the request that I make with respect to the brief that was represented to him by the Winnipeg School Divis ion No. 1 having to do with the multiple-h andicapped retarded children. He knows whereof I speak, and, well Mr. Chairman, you know, I just can't help but interject. This is the response from members opposite, you know: what did we do for them ? What did we do for them ?

If that is going to be their measure of performance by government, Mr. Chair man, we will never move one step forward. If they're prepared, if they're prepared to accept as kind of their guideline, that whatever we did, whatever we did, we won't go a step beyond. --(I nterjection)--No, but that's what the former Leader of the New Democratic Party is suggesting in chirp ing from his seat. That's what he is saying. He said, "What did you do for them ?" What did you do for them ?

Well I don't have to recite what we did for them because we did an awful lot more for them in our brief years than these people have shown any occasion for doing for them. But now, Mr. Speaker, that's beside the point. My question simply is to the Minister of Education, and I'll take the words of the former leader of the New Democratic Party, I'll merely ask him: "What are you going to do for them ? I would hope that, as I sit down, you, Mr. Mi nister of Education, will tell me precisely in unequivocating words, what you are going to do for one Stephen Neil and the likes of him.

May 10, 1974 3389 SUPPLY - EDUCAT ION (MR. ENNS cont'

d) Well, Mr. Chair man, I have that commitment from the Honourable Mini ster. I know when I'm ahead. I will sit down and listen intently to what the Honourable Minister of Education is going to do. Thank you. MR . CHA ill MAN: The Honourable Member for Ass iniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Ass iniboia): Mr. Chairman, I will not deal with many of the issues or most of the issues that has been dealt with by my two colleagues on this side and by some of the other members already.

I think we've had considerable discussion in respect to foundation grants, the teacher grants and enrollment decline, teacher-pupil ratio, and some of the other issues. But I do want to bring a couple of things to the attention of the Minister at this time which concerns my constituency, but before I do that, perhaps I do want to pose one ques tion to the Min ister in respect to what is the government policy in relation to the City of Winnipeg and the present school divisions ?

Is there any part on the government at the present time to change the present divisions, to decrease them or make the City of Winnipeg, the whole City of Winnipeg, into one division, or what is the government's policy ? I know that this is the concern not only of the Manitoba and the Winnipeg Teachers' Assoc iation, but it is also the concern of the various bo<trds within the City of Winnipeg. So perhaps the Min ister can give us some indication what the policy will be, or is his department undertaking any studies in this respect and what will happen as far as the present divisions are concerned ?

The other point, I believe, and we've talked to some of the other members that raised this matter, in respect to the foundation grants , and I mentioned I will not take any time but I do want to bring to the Mi nister's attention again, and cannot bring it strongly enough, that the program, the system, the foundation system at the present time is not meeting the requirement because all we have to do is just look at each one, our own tax bills, and I would like to tell the Minister I think that the special levy is now carrying too much of the load and perhaps the foun dation grant has to be changed and a new formula found or updated, because I can indicate my own case.

In the last six years my own property tax has doubled and mostly due to education costs, and I can relate this same thing, perhaps most homeowners in my constituency in Assiniboia or St. James will tell you the same thing. Now I did not bring any tax notices to really demonstrate to the Mi nister but I did, I believe, last year or a couple of years ago, and I'm sure that this is the case. I did have one and it's not up to date, where in a matter of, say ten years, from '58 to '68, the assessment on a small business property in St. James has increased from $4, 400 to $20, 000 and, Mr.

Chairman, this is frightening really when this happ ens. So I know that the Foundation Program served its purpose and served it well in the beginning, but I think it's fall ing behind and the pressure is too much, too great on the special levy now. So I hope that the Minist er will give this some attention. But the real reason, Mr. Chairman, that I got up, and I wish to ask the Minister, what is the policy of the government and the problem that we experience in our constituency when many of the students from, say, Headingley had to be transported to the schools in St. James ?

And I don't totally disagree that if it's a temporary situation that we should build a new school building in, say, a location like Headingley if the populat ion will not be there for the next several years. But what really transpired and happened last year where it was not satisfactory to many of the parents, there was great concern that these students had to be transferred from Headingley to St.

Ja mes, but their greatest complaint was that they had to not go from, say, Headingley to the closest distance to the schools, but they had to go almost across the whole division from the furthest point of Headingley to the eastern

section of St. James, and that was their biggest argument. Well, I'm sure if the Minis ter perhaps would have met with the parents before this happened, before, you know, they were told that they have to do this without any communication - I don't know what communication took place but it was related to me there was no communication - they were told by letter that the students will be transferred or transported from Headingley to some of them at Li nwood School, which is on the far side of the St.

James area, or the eastern part which is the furthest point, and their argument was well, why couldn't we go to school in Crestview or St. Charles ? And of course then it would be two transportations. Perhaps the children from St. Charles would have to go to Linwood so you'd have two transporta tions and you'd be then disrupting two students instead of one because you'd be transferring two. But I feel if there would have been proper planning and perhaps a meeting held, this wouldn 't

3390 May 10, 1974 SUPPLY - EDUC ATI ON (MR. PATRICK cont'd) ..... have developed. So again I'm saying to the Mi nister, maybe it's not right and it's not necessary, it may not be even feasible to try and build new schools or expand the present schools if the population will not hold it in the next several years. But surely there must be some better planning and this is not what's happ ening at the present time, Mr. Chairman. The other point that I would like to raise to the Mini ster - there was another point; the same thing happened in the St.

Ch arles Division where the students, two classrooms had to be accommodated in a community club, community center, St. Ch arles Community Center, which was not adequate really because I'm familiar with the situation and surely there should have been better provisions made or better accommodation, and perhaps the community center ·should have been updated somewhat, because it wasn't a proper place for having classes unless it was fixed up to at least what would have been reasonable. I know in this case the heating system wasn't suffic ient, the floor ing wasn't sufficient, the acoustics were not sufficient.

It was just an ordinary community club, and that's where we had two classes and it was almost impossible to have two classes at the same time. Not only the parents were concerned - I know I had many calls and they met with me, so again, I don't feel that this kind of thing should take place, I think there should be better planning, Mr. Chairman . So that's the two areas that I really wanted to bring to the Minister.

I do hope that he'll give us some replies as far as the school divisions that I posed to him, the two questions, and I know that the teacher ratio is a very important problem at the present time because it will concern many of the rural divisions and I know they're concerned because they're saying it's the responsibil ity of the province to see that, regardless of the wealth of an individual, he should have, that children should have the same opportunity to education, and what is happening in some of these places that because of the enrollm ent populat ion increases the teachers have a much heavier load, they're not able to reach the same options, and invariably your education is not--they haven't the same quality, and I believe this is very important.

So it's maybe not necessary to build new schools but there must be some portable schools that have to be given consideration, and I think we haven't done too much in this area in the Province of Manitoba.

I know that the Member for Lake side mentioned about permit teachers, and I just would like to say we've had permit teachers for many years and we shouldn 't take anything away from them because we still have some in our system today who have been good teachers and they.'ve been teaching for 20 years and-- (Interjection)--Well no, that's the same that have been teaching for 20 or 25 years, and I beli eve they have upgraded themselves or taken courses each year, but there still may be some in the system and I don't think that perhaps--as far as I'm con cerned I'm sure that they're doing a great job, otherwise they wouldn 't have lasted in the sys tem.

So I'm just saying this, that there's--y ou know, they're not all - I know there are some in the system and I ju st didn't want it to be left that there's something wrong with permit teachers. I know in the Sixties it wasn't only the Province of Man itoba who had permit teachers, but all over. We had them in Saskatchewan and Alberta and Ontar io, in fact we had to import teachers from Great Britain, and today the situation is reversed. They haven't got any teachers in Great Britain, in fact a drastic shortage, I understand, and they're trying to get them all over and they can't. So these are just the two points.

I don't want to take any more time of the House because I know my coll eagues from St. Boniface and from Fort Rouge have taken the full time on this, the Min ister's estimates, and in fact have discussed most of the major issues that concerns all of us . So I hope that the Mi nister will give me some answers on the points that I raised. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR . WALLY JOHANNSON (St. Matthews): Mr. Chairman, the former Minister of Education is booing me. I don't want to take much time of the House.

I agree with the Member for Winnipeg Centre that the estimate time should be primarily the time of the opposition. But I did want to register one more concern with the Minister before he finishes his estimates. But before I get to that, I wanted to comment on a few things said by the Me mber for Lakeside. I think that the prev ious government, the Roblin Government, did br ing about some major improvements in the school system, and the statement I made yesterday wasn't intended to imply that there haven't been any improvements in the school system.

They did build the schools, the new schools that were absolutely essential in many of the rural areas of the pro vince. I can recall teaching in Evergreen Division out in the Town of Riverton in 1961, and I

May 10, 197 4 3391 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. JOHANNSON cont'd) .•... started teaching in a new school built by the Roblin Government, and it was a fantastic improvement over the old school. An d those new schools did help the education in the rural areas and that is to the credit of the Roblin Government. There was an improvement during that period in the qualifications of teachers. I think there was an immense improvement, and that was a major improvement in the system.

So I think that the field of education was one of the major areas of achievement for the Roblin Government and I would agree with the Member for Lakeside. But there were still trends occurring at that time under George Johnson, under the Me mber for Riel, that I think were negative and wrong, and that was what I was talking about yesterday. An d I' m a minority in my own caucus; I' m simply registering my opinion because I happen to hold it very deeply.

Now I'm not advocating that we go backward with Bilton to the one-room country schoolhouse, the little red schoolhouse which the honourable member, the memory of which he cherishes, because that didn't provide a decent level of education really. It educated only a very--as the Minister of Education pointed out, education at that time was confined really to an elite; it educated very few people. And that's not what I want. What I want is a qual ity education, as the Member for Brandon West emphas ized, a qual ity education available to every possible child in this province.

I want this available not only to the children who live in River Heights or in the more affluent suburbs of this city, I want it available to the kid who lives in the working class areas, in the slums, in the rural areas. Okay. A MEM BER : No problem there. -- (Interjection)-- MR . JOHA NNSON: I'm not speaking in a partisan sense and the poor Mi nister here is caught in a crossfire. Everybody thinks he knows --he thinks he's an expert in education. Well I'm not an expert but I think that the CO RE Report represents a wrong direction, and this has been said before. I think it is a retrogressive step.

I think it's a step in the wrong direction. The Mi nister made a defence of what he called the Department's response to the CORE Report. He says that the Department is not implementing the CO RE Report, it is simply responding to it by accepting some of its suggestions but not all. -- (Interjection)--Mr. Ch airman, Mr. Cha irman ... MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR. JOHA NNSON : Mr. Ch airman, the Member for Lakeside has a louder voice than I have even without a microphone.

The suggestion that--the plan that 10 out of 20 courses in the high school program of a student be optional, and that three of them be student initiated, I think really has fantastic practical problems involved. Let's just take the example of the three courses that the student initiates. I taught up to 1969 in Lakeshore Divis ion which had about 1, 000 high school students in it. Those thousand high school students would, over their high school period, each have the option of initiating three courses. That means 3, 000 courses, that mean roughly a thousand a year, a thousand individualized courses.

Those thousand unique and individualized courses will be channelled through the teachers presumably to the school board. Now, Mr. Chairm an, as I recall the Interlake School Board, the membership were not experts in the field of curriculum or education: they were farmers, they were merchants. The chairman when I was there last was Mr. Em il Moeller who was a sugar beet farmer. --(I nter jection)--T hat I'm not disputing. He was a good honest guy but I don't think Mr. Moeller would presume that he would have the competence to give profess ional approval to a thousand unique and individualized courses.

So what's going to be the result ? What's going to be the result ? Well one thing that will probably happen is that - or one thing that could happen is that the board will simply rubber stamp what the teachers tell them. Now I question whether how many teachers would feel that they were competent professionally to approve courses that were devised by their students. At present we have a system of devising new courses which I think has a lot of strengths in it.

An y new course that is devised is devised by teachers who are working in the subject, in the field, by personnel from the department, by people from the university who happen to have a profess ional expertise or an academic expertise in this area. An d I think that system contains a lot of safeguards. But if you make it the responsibility of an individual teacher out in a country school to approve the unique courses submitted by each student, I think you're putting an impossible responsibility upon that teacher's shoulders. What will happen will be

3392 May 10, 1974 SUPPLY - EDUCA TION (MR. JOHA NNSO N cont'd) ..... that they will of course have to probably call in experts from the department or someone else. An d so we get back to the department and the whole thing becomes a charade, a very expensive, very time-c onsuming charade.

What will also happ en I am sure and if any teacher - I think most teachers would agree with me - that because they're pressed for time, because they have a lot of things to do, they will tend to approve a lot of courses without really spending the necessary amount of time checking them over and the result will be courses that really are inadequate and these will be accepted as credits and this will lead to a dilution of quali ty, a dilution of excellence\ it will to some extent reduce education to a bit of a sham, a bit of a farce. Now I want to get back to one central thing which I think is really important.

The central idea in the CO RE Report - and this is an idea that's been accepted in the school system I think over a period of years now - the central idea is that curriculum must be based on the child's needs, interests and abilities. The CORE Report puts it this way. "The needs of the individual" it's talking about the student of course - "are central and constitute the focal point for the efforts of the school. " This is the central assumption, the basic assumption upon which the whole house of cards is built. An d if you take that, you destroy that basic assumption, the whole thing falls .

An d they use this basic assumption. The next po int in the CO RE Report, Page 9, Freedom and Responsibil ity. "E mphasis on the individual implies that the student in the secondary school should have the opportunity to make and accept the responsibility for making significant decisions regarding the kind s of educational experiences that will be best for him." From that basic assumption flows a whole series of things which in effect transfer responsibility from the teacher to the student. -- (Interjection)--I think it is a big transfer and I think it is a false assumption, I think it is false as hell.

A ME MBER : Right. I agree 100 percent. MR . JOHANNSO N : Mr. Ch airman, I've got friends on the wrong side - that's the thing that bothers me. Mr. Speaker, this basic assumption started with Dewey and it's gradually been gaining acceptance in the school system. This is the central assumption of the Hall Dennis Report in Ontar io and not it's the central assumption of the CO RE Report and it's going to be the central assumption upon which the Mi nister bases his responses to the CO RE Report. In our society - several members have pointed this out - there has been some abdication of responsibility by parents .

In a lot of families the child rather than the parents has become the center of the family and I think this is a totally wrong situation. In a family the parents must be the hub of the family and the children the spokes and this way you have a healthy family, you have a healt hy growth of children. The legal status of the teacher - I don't know if this still continues but while I was in school the legal position of the teacher was in locum parentis - in the place of the parent in the schools. It hasn't changed1the Minister tells me. And, Mr. Speaker, this to me is the proper, the proper system of values.

The teacher in the school must be central, not the student. The teacher must be the one who teaches and the student learns. Now, Mr. Cha irman, I'm really afraid that we're going through a futile exercise. I hope we're not: I hope we're not. I hope the Mini ster is not totally committed to the making of the recommendations of the CO RE Report or what he calls his response mandatory. --( lnterjection)- No, Mr. Chairman, that is one responsibility that I wouldn 't want. I hope the Minister at least to some extent has an open mind and is will ing to listen.

I would really hope that he's not totally committed to the implementations of what he has outlined. I hope he is willing to reconsider. MR . CHAIRMA N: Order please. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: I wonder if the member would accept a question? Would he be prepared to support a motion that would rescind the announced mandatory imple mentation of the credit sys tem in the high schools in Man itoba and return it to the department for further study? MR. JOHANNSO N: No, no. Mr.

Chai rman, I'm not prepared to move non-c onfidence in the Minister, I simply am asking him to keep an open mind on this particular topic and to li sten to the pl eas of some of us . MR . CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . McKEN ZIE: Thank you, Mr. Chair man. I shall not be very lengthy in my remarks, I'll try and deal with the basic problems that I have in my constituency and I hope that the Minister will provide me with some of the answers that I think are very important questions that

May 10, 197 4 3393 SUPPLY - EDUCATI ON (MR. McKENZIE cont'd) ..... deserve the attention of the House and the Minister. I do though however, Mr. Chairman, find it rather childish that the way the Minister took off in a tirade against me last night about education. The questions that I raised about education were directed to the Minister of the At torney-General and I think was the press releases that are going around this city today and the people are talking. They were timely and they deserved to be raised in this House.

An d for the Mi nister of Education to stand up and make a tirade and say that it didn't deserve attention, I have no quarrel with the educational system or the stu dents in this province, it's just a small portion of them in some areas and I can't vouch for others that deserve attention. Mr. Cha irman, let me deal with the matter of education. I ask the Minister of Education first what he's going to do about Camperville. He made certain statements in the House last year and he was out there to several meetings; he's made certain promises and I shall ask him to stand up and tell us what he's going to do.

I am quite familiar what's happening there today and I'm sure1as he is and his department, of the many teacher changes that's taken place there in the last six months . It boggles your mind to think that this is supposed to be an educational system in our province and with the Mini ster going out there and having a public meeting and saying he'd devote all of hi s time and his talents to hopefully resolve that problem so I hope he will deal with that. Let me also ask the Mini ster if he can tell me what's going on in Duck Mountain School Division, how they're getting along ?

Have they any problems and if they have problems has he prepared to deal with them or has he got any answers to some of their problems ? I'd like him to spell out in my constituency - Intermountain School Division - have they got any problems ? Is he prepared to go in there and help them resolve some of their problems ? Pelly Trail School Division - what is he doing in there and what he's got for some of the answers to their problems ? What 's the department going to do to help the Duck Mountain School Division resolve the serious matter that they have with their buildings ?

I asked him in question in the House some time ago and he said that he was not prepared as the Minister, the government was not prepared, nor would he allow his staff - the Department of Education - to go in and assist the Board of Trustees to resolve a most difficult problem which is going to be very very expen sive. I ask him also, Mr.

Chair man, in some of the questions that's been raised to me from time to time and this has come from trustees and parents1 that a new Statutory Committee should be established in this province to annually advise the Minister or the department for the need of revision of grants and the development or priorities to find out where we're going in rural Manit oba and I'm going to ask him very quietly what he's done about it and if he's pre pared to accept that as be ing need. May I also point out to the Minister again, Mr.

Chairman - I hope I don't raise questions that other members have raised - that I think there is still a pressing need to re-esta blish the priorities in our province for the educational future. Where are we going for the next five years ? Where are you going for the next ten years ? To set up some of the evidence of the future which this government and this Min ister is planning for the destiny of these young people in our province.

An d at the same time give us some idea of where the taxpayer who's going to have to pay the bill is going to be able to deal with these escalating costs which this year, or 197 3,were up some 12. 1 percent and I'm sure the figures are going to stagger us when we get them for 1974. An d I bel ieve it's the right of the Minister and the right of the taxpayers of this province to have a statement from this Mi nister as to what it's going to cost us. So may I ask the Honourable Minister that what he's got in mind for next year, the year after, the year after that? I think we deserve that type of an answer.

Where are these escalating costs going to carry the tax payers and where are we going with education? Are we going to have to include the ten percent inflat ionary factor over and above these other costs or what has the Mi nister and the depart ment got in mind for the school divisions that are in my constitutency: Duck Mountain, Inter mountain and Pelly Trail ? I'm sure he'll be able to give us some of those answers that my people are asking day after day and I promised that when we got to his estimates I would raise those questions and surely we'll get some answers.

May I ask though again when we're talking about equality of education in this province> and this was the concept of the Roblin days, where that we would eventually arrive at some day

3394 May 10, 197 4 SUPPLY - EDUCATI ON (MR. McKENZIE cont'd) ..... some place where every child in this province would have an equal opportunity and get an equal chance for an education, which was the complaints of the Honourable Member for Fli n Flon. The lowest cost divisions spent some $585. 00 I bel ieve it was, per pupil in operating the division in 1973. An d if my memory serves me correctly, Mr . Chairman, the highest cost division was close to $1, 000 if I understand it, which came to a difference of roughly 450 or 420, somewhere in that difference per pupil.

May I ask the question of the Minister and what is the reason for this large difference between the sum of the one divisions and those that are at the thousand-dollar level. An d if the Mi nister's got any answers to how we are going to get equal education for say a student in Duck Mountain School Division if you compare it with some of our urban communities, and I'm sure he has got some answers for that because he's been in the department long enough and I think will be able to fulfill us with some of those.

One other question I think again which deals with the equal opportunity for all the children in the Province of Man itoba, and assessment, assessment from one division to another still varies at an enormous length when you compare it to the per pupil bas is. An d of course the taxing power of the school division with the highest assessment when you compare it with a per pupil basis in some divisions in this province is four times of that when you compare it to Duck Mountain1which is the school division that comes closer to my heart. So I would think, Mr.

Speaker, that that would indicate, I'm sure to him and indicate to me1that we've got to find some other way than prop erty if we're going to equalize the educational problems1and I'm sure he's going to come back with the same old cliche that he's gave us of the property rebate tax and I'm sure he got some answers today from the Honourable Member from St. James about that formula which he can't sell me either. But I wonder would the Honourable Mi nister fill us in on where he's going on this and how he's going to fill that gap because I, as a member of the Opposi tion - I'm sure the Honourable Member of St.

Matthews who alr eady spoke supports me on that con cept, and the Me mber for Flin Flon - that we deserve at least some answers. If he hasn't got the answers, tell us where we're going and how we're going to arrive at that point. I still sup port the educational concept. I find it very difficult to find the Minister of Education rising in a tirade yesterday, and attacking me for some problems that were not with education at all. They're with the At torney-G eneral 's Department.

I think it was cheap, it was uncalled for, and I hope that he'll give us some answers to the questions that I've raised. . . . . . continued on next page

May 10, 1974 3395 SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR . CHAIRMA N: The Honourable Member for St . Boniface . MR . J. PAUL MARION (St . Boniface): Thank you, Mr . Chairman . I think that the remarks that I addressed, through you to the Minister yesterday with respect to the system of education in the province and the proposed improvements to the CORE Report1are one matter that was of consequence to the entire population of the province . I would now like to address myself to you, Mr . Chairman , and through you to the Minister of Education, on a problem that is much closer to home . It is a problem that exists in the St .

Boniface SchoolDi vision and one which is very very difficult to live with . Yet in the remarks that were made by the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre, and in some of the remarks also of the Honourable Minister himself this morning in the way of an answer to some of the comments that have be en made by members on this side of the Hou se, there were allusions made to the French

section of education in this province . Now I, as a francophone, am extremely pleased with the kinds of innovations that were brought about and the possibilities that were given to francophones in this province by the inception of Bill 113 . I think that Bill 113 was a completion of the work that had already started with Bill 59 ; and it was a happy day indeed for me, particularly, and for the entire French community, when Bill l13 came into effect.

The degree of assimilation of that French community was such that further delays would without doubt have taken a greater toll than it already has with respect to assimilation . Now in the St . Boniface School Division it took exactly one year to put into play Bill 113 . For the edification of all of the members present, it was put into play this way.

There was the "A" course which the Minis rer referred to this morning1whereby all of the subjects were taught in French with the exception of the English language , and that course was parallel to the English course given to students in the other streams of education. Then there was the "B" course which dealt with roughly a 50 - 50 percent , or a carrying on as it were , of Bill 59 . There were a number of families in the St . Boniface School Division who opted for the "A" course .

And to make this course possible a school was set aside whereby, and completely set aside, for the teaching of this course from grades 1 to 8, and St . Boniface College the secondary

section took it from 9 to 12 . Now, I cannot but help but again stress the kind of role that the Provincial Government has played in this area . It has received a great deal of support and financial help from the Federal Government but the initiative it took should have given all of the opportunities to a school division to carry the program on without hesitation .

After the first year of operation at Tache School - and now I think this name will register with a lot of the members in this Chamber - the School Board threatened that it had to, be cause of the limited enrollment, it had to close that school and transfer the course into another locale where it would not be possible to function as properly as it could at the Tache area . Because of parent representation this closure was postponed or delayed.

I say postponed or delayed, because at the end of the second year we are faced again with the closure of this school Now, the department has taken initiatives, happy initiatives I might add, I•m not now criticizing them as I was under the CORE Report

section of my talk, but they took some happy initiatives and appo inted a man that was to co- ordinate the instruction of the French language in the province . This man came in last year and worked for an entire year at evaluating actually what was happe ning in French instruction. By and large this gentleman said that the level of French instruction in the province was deplorable , and a great deal had to be done to bring it up to the standards of the other , the English flow of instruction.

On page 13 of his report this gentleman said that there was only one exception to the analysis that he was making and that was the viability of Tache School and St . Boniface Col lege . Now that•s the same school that today the St . Bon iface School Division would like to close . I agree with the Minister and with all of the gentlemen who have spoken about the importance of school division autonomy. I think that this is something that is unquestLOnable . Becaus2 of its intimate relationship with the people who live in the area, it has to relate to the people of that area.

So I would never want any further watering down of the authority and the autonomy of a local school division . But I indeed, Mr . Chairman, am heavy of heart to know that one school division has not been civilized to all of the efforts that are being made by the two levels of government in this country, both the Federal and the Provinc ial . It insists on closing down a school that was evaluated by a man who is of the profession, capable of properly evaluating the work that's being done ; it insists on negating all of those efforts . And it would seem to me,

3396 May 10, 197 4 SUPPLY - EDUCA TION (MR . MAR ION Cont•d) ..... Mr . Chairman, that I have asked the Minister to act as the arbiter in this case in some of the questions that I put to him previously during the question period in the month of March and at the beginning of April. I• ve had the opportunity, Mr . Chairman, to speak to the Minister about this case , and I know that his sympathy definitely lies with the parents of the children that are attending 1 •E cole Tach� .

Je suis tres heu reux, Monsieur le Presi dent, d•adresses les quelques paroles sur le systeme d•education francophone de la Province du Manitoba dans ma langue maternelle , etant donn� qu•il y a presentement des membres de cette Chambre qui sont aussi de cette mE!me descendance , Il me semble que lorsqu•a offert le Miniotre , plus tot ce matin, d•offrir certains financments pour aider la Division scolaire si el le se sent dans le besoin ou si elle se sent desavantagee parce qu•e lle offre le course en francais qui est parallele a celui-la en englais , il me semble que ce geste est valable mars, par contre , il me semble qu•il y a encore un probl�me qui est plus profond et ce probleme c• est bien celui-la que la Commiss ion scol aire de St .

Bo niface elle-meme n•a pas compris ce qu•essayait de faire le D�partement de !•Education de cette Province . I think that is incumbent upon the Minister, and I say this not as a dire ct order, because I have insin uated that his feelings have been voiced to me whereby he appreciates the requests that are being made by the parents to make sure that this school is not closed.

I think that the Minister said this morning that he was willin g to fund, because of the fact the program that was now initiated at Tache, with the . . . program at Provencher , were both in essen ce parallel courses and of a pilot project nature. I appreciate the kinds of effort that the Minister is willing to make to make sure that these programs are carried along at least for the length of time required to properly evaluate which of the two that are presently in existence in the school division of St .

Boniface are the more viable , or are the courses which show the best response to the pcssi bilities of fundamental bilingualism for a franco-Manitoban in the Province of Manitoba, I appreciate these . But I can•t help but feel very frustrated at the fact that the St.

Bo niface School Division, who should, in essen ce, be implementing this kind of thinking, has seen fit not to , of its own voliti on, make that 11A" course as obtainable as it should, and taught under the conditions that make it possible for the course to have its full impact, I would expect that if the Minister has the opportunity of di�l oguing with the school board he will make those points with that authority, and if they are able to put a case before him whereby the funding is necessary then he will see fit to go along with reasonable requests in that area.

But it would be my sincere feeling that the Minister would also voice the objects again that the Provincial Government has with respect to French education, so that that division might show the kind of leadership that is incumbent upon it to show and that it to this day has really not been showing . MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Char leswood . MR . ARTHUR MOUG (Charleswood) : Mr. Speaker, I just had one or two comments to make . They're more in the way of questions rather than comments to pass on to the Minister .

I was wondering if he would explain to the House funds that are available in the way of teachers grants for private parochial schools and how a school becomes eligible for this. Are there any schools in the province that•s receiv ing them now, and if so why are some of the schools because they happen to fall in different districts than others , don•t receive these grants. I would wonder if it's available to all schools through the province who want to apply for it and who makes the decision. Is it the school board of the division or is it the Department of Education, as to who gets the grants and who doesn't ?

And the reason why some schools are being able to take advantage of this and some don•t seem to be able to . And if he is knowledgeable on it to give us the answer, if any of the City of Winnipeg School District No. l participates in this or are they taking advantage of these grants that are available ? MR . CHAIRMA N: The Ho nourable Mi nister of Education. MR . HAN USCHAK: Mr .

Chairman, there have been a number of honourable members of the House who have particip ated in the debate in my estimates this afternoon and while being up on my feet this time round I would like to attempt to deal with as many of the questions and issues raised by honourable members as time will permit , attempting to, one being mindful of the time constrain ts , and secondly, also wanting to give as complete replies as I possi bly can .

May 10, 197 4 3397 SUPPLY - EDUCA TION (MR . HANUSCHAK Cont1d) Therefore , dealing with honourable members in the order in which they spoke, firstly , the Ho nourable Member for Flin Flon expressing his concern about Frontier School Division; and one of his concerns was that the division as large as it is, while certainly geographically being the largest in the Province of Manitoba, is administered by an official trustee as opposed to having an elected board. Then he went on to suggest the need for a complete revamping of the system and so forth.

Now it is true that at the present time Frontier School Division, or rather the affairs of Frontier School Division are administered by an official trustee. Of course , an official trustee has all the powers of a school board in dealing with education matters related to his particular school division. It must also be borne in mind , Mr .

Chairman, that Frontier School Divis ion is a new creature of govern ment, created at the time that a move was made toward the establishment of unitary school divisions ; and it must be borne in min d that at the time , and in fact even at the present time , I would doubt whether Frontier School Div isi on is ready to assume full responsi bility of the administ ration of its own affairs. When I say that I doubt if they are ready, what l 'm really saying, Mr .

Chairman, is that I do not believe that the mechanism has been devised to enable the people of that huge part of Manitoba to administer their educational affairs in the best interest of the entire area. But, having said that, I would not wish it to be interpreted that I am in any way suggesting that that ought not be our goal or our objective , and it certainly should be. In fact I would also wish to rem ind members of the House , Mr .

Chairman, that whatever could be done at the present time to enable the school division, or the people in the school division to participate in a decis ion-making process has been done through the establishment of advisory committees and advisory councils . There is an advisory committee attached to the operation of each school within Frontier School Division and there are many, every community of any size has an elementary school, and then of course there is the high school at Cranberry Portage known as Frontier Collegiate .

Ea ch has an advisory committee attached to it and in turn the advisory committee has representatives of it si tting on an advisory council for the entire Frontier School Division. Now the previous government had established a high school at Cranberry Portage and that was the focal point to which students seeking a high school education went to obtain it, It operated that way for a number of years and at the present time a number of things are happen ing.

Frontier Collegiate is still continuing, of cou rse , but many communities wherein the population warrants it have high school instruction being offered locally up to whatever grade level the enrollme nt numbers would make it possi ble to offer high school education - Grade 9, Grade 10 and so forth. I think one must not lose sight of the fact that schools in a division such as Frontier School Division, they have to do a number of things , or the philosophy of education within a division of that type has to be mi ndful of a number of factors .

One, to provide an education program that would be meani ngful, relevant, useful to the people of the community, one which would be of benefit to those from Nor thern Manitoba who may elect to seek their live lihood remaining in the north and offering them an education program that they'd be able to put to use. This is in line with our stay option program which is policy of this government .

And secondly, it also must be such that would make it possi ble for those in Northern Manitoba in the pursuit of their ambitions , of their careers, may have to move elsewhere both for training and eventually for the practice of their oc cupation, of their profession or whatever it may be. So therefore the education program does in fact have to incorporate both of those features.

Now I don't think that it would be fair to design a program that would be designed primarily for those, or exclusively for those livin g in the north and choos ing to remain in the north, because then you're putting those who may be of best service to the province working elsewhere, you're putting them at a disadvantage, and si milarly it would be equally unfair to offer a program that would be completely meaningless and irrelevant to those who.m ay choose to remain there. And in other words being urban oriented, southern Manitoba oriented and so forth.

So the problem that the Honourable Member for Flin Flon poses is not one that can be resolved overni ght but certainly one that - and in a moment or two I wish to indicate some of the steps that are being taken to move in the direction - concrete definite steps are being taken moving in the direction suggested by the Honourable Member for Flin Flon. Then of

3398 May 10, 1974 SUPPLY - EDUCAT ION (MR . HANUSCHAK Cont•d) .. , •. course it must be borne in mind that Cranberry Portage itself is a community within which is housed Frontier Col legiate and therefore whatever may be done that may tend to reduce the enrollment at Frontier Col legiate would eventually, or could eventually have undesirable effects on that community in terms of employment prospects and so forth. In ofher words , on its general economy .

So therefore whatever is done related to the delivery' of the education program that may tend to move education back into the communi ties it has to be done in such a way that would not produce certain benefits in one area but adverse or undesirable effects in another . And both have to be borne in mind . During the past year we have had our staff work in the Frontier School Division to do a close and thorough study of the education needs of a school division, and I would just like to indicate to you, Mr .

Chairman, what some of the recommen dations are as to the things that ought to be done and in fact what is being done at the present time . But perhaps before I come to that just one further comment on the question of self government of the Fron tier School Division. I did meet with the advisory council of Frontier School Division, in fact it's a year ago now, at which time I indicated to the advisory council my interest and concern and desire to move in this direction at as rapid a rate as may be possible .

I did indicate , and of course the advisory council certainly is well aware of some of the problems that must be overcome, the ramifications of developing som e system of self-government that would be practical because there are geographic factors , you know, the remoteness of the communitie s, the distance among them and so forth. Of this they are aware .

And I indicated to the advisory council that I would like them to take this suggestion back home to them , to their own advisory committees attached to each school and discuss it with them and then report back to me at the next meeting of the advisory council, or as soon as they may be able to report back. I am advised, Mr . Chairman, that the advisory council did exactly that and will be reporting back to me very shortly, within the next few weeks, at which time they will be making some suggestions and also seeking further direction and clarification and advice from myself and the Department .

So it•s quite apparent then, Mr . Chairman, that this matter is not an issue that can be very easily resolved, because even the people who would be directly affected or most affected by any move in this direction themselves have certain quest ions , certain reservations , concerns that they would want to discuss further with the Department of Education before continuing their move in that direction .

Now to deal with some of the problems and the needs of the students and the teachers in Frontier School Division as we see them at the present time , on the basis of the report that we have received from a staff person that was given this ass ignment . And I•m just going through these in the - I'm not certain whether they're arranged in any particular order of priority or - I would doubt it very much . I think that all of these are matters of cons iderable concern and hence they are listed here.

One suggestion that he makes that - and this is being done - making more materials available to the teahcers to enable them to deal more adequately with the subject of Social Studies. I would suspect that one of the problems in Fro:J.tier School Division is one of making the study of Social Studies more meaningful and relevant to their own home situation, to their own environm ent. And this is being done.

Then insofar as audio-visual materials are concerned, insofar as the supply of the hardware, this appears to be reasonably ample and adequate, it•s heavily used, but we must concentrate more on the provision of software materials to make proper use of the hardware. Then of course we also looked at the cost of transportation which is a very signific ant factor in Northern Manitoba.

The cost is high to transport the students to and from Frontier Collegiate to bring them in September, back home for Christmas and so forth, and this I would feel would require further study - and this to a degree , or at least as it applies to Frontier School Division touches so mewhat on the concern raised by the Honourable Member for Roblin when he speaks about future plans . I would like Frontier School Division, which I would like to remind you agatn, Mr .

Chairman, the Frontier School Division is a school division empowered to make its own decisi ons , to operate its own school program, but I would like the Frontier School Division to consider the implementation of a semester or trimester program at Frontier Collegia te with a view to doing two things . One, making the laboratory and shops, home ec facilities available to the high school students for som e periods of their term in high

May 10, 197 4 3399 SUPPL Y - EDUCATION (MR . HANUSCHAK cont'd) . . school and at the same time make it possible for those same students to remain at home for a longer period of time under the control and guidance and direction of their parents . Now I realize that to do that the cost factor, you know, will emerge and that we will have to look at it .

Insofar as the curriculum development is concerned, and I would probably deal with this more adequately when we proceed to deal with other resolutions in my estima tes, and particu larly those dealing with specific programs , and when we come to native education I'd be able to elaborate on that at greater length. The reason for it is is I can give you a detailed description , probably take me three or four minutes to find it in my estimates book, but when we come to that

section on the estimates I will have the material there and be able to outline in detail innovations in all programs that may fall within that particular branch. -- (Interjection) -- The honourable member says he'd take my word for it . I'm glad to hear that, and may I also suggest to the honourable member that should I forget or should time run against me then I would hope that somewhere along the line we would find time for me to outline to the House new and innovative programs that are under way. Then we are concerned and we have the post school activiti es of the graduates at Frontier Collegia te .

We 're attempting to locate the present whereabouts and present occupation, do a follow-up on the graduates; in fact on all students at any time that attended Frontier Collegiate since the date of its inc eption, 1965 to 1972 . -- (Interjection) -- The Honourable Member for Lakeside says that this sounds like snooping . I can assure the honourable member that nothing will be asked that would in any way violate the provi sions of The Personal Investigations Act.

All that would be asked would be -w e would want such information that would assist us in en abling the education program in Frontier School Divi sion to function even better to the advantage and for the benefit of the people of Frontier . I 'm glad , Mr. Chairman, that the Honourable Member for Lakeside is very accommodating this afternoon . I know he usually is but when he assumes his role as an oppositi on member in the House it surprises me that he can be all that accommodating .

Then we also conduct various exchange trips between students of Frontier School Divisi on via the Youth Secretariat and perhaps on this particular point, Mr . Chairman , even though this is an activity i:lvolving the school divisio n itself, but this does fall under the aegis of the Youth Secretariat and perhaps could be dealt with at greater length when we come to deal with my other department, Colleges and Universities Affairs.

Student trips have been arranged for high school students of Frontier Collegiate and Norway Hou se , and then of course we have the exchange program during the summer months for students from Frontier and for students in the core city area to have an opportunity to spend some time at Frontier Colle giate acquainting themse lves with life and the environment in the north .

And I also wish to assure the honourable members and the honourable member for Frontier that in -service sessions are held for the teachers, in -service sessi ons dealing with teaching methods, dealing with matters touching upon native culture and so forth, and thus to better acquaint the teachers with the students that they're working with and thus in turn enabled them to offer better service to their community . Now this is only a brief response , Mr .

Chairman , to some of the concerns raised by the Hon ourable Member for Flin Flon and as I've indicated , I hope that we'll be able to deal with this at greater length at another point in time . The Honourable Member for St . James attempted to make us , or make the House believe that at some time or another I have said that with the existing grant structure coupled with tax rebates that the share of the education costs borne by each and every taxpayer in the Province of Manitoba shall be something in the order of 20 percent, that the province picks up 72 percent of the education cost of each and every tax bill .

At no time did I say that the province picked up 72 percent of each and every tax bill. I never said that . -- (Interjection) -- For the whole province , for the whole provinc e, not off each and every tax bill . In fact -- (Interjection) - Well all right, I'll tell -- well in some school divisions , last year, for example , in , well it's a school division -- (Interjection) -- 72 percent, that's the provincial contribution . A ME MBER: Last year ? MR . HANUSCHAK: Last year ? Last year it was in the order of 70 - yes, yes . You know I could dig up the figures . Well just a minute now .

Last year, yes the honourable member's -- last year, 19 73, the total provincial contribution of school expenditures were

3400 May 10, 1974 SUPPLY - EDUCA TION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) . . . 75 .0 1 percent. Yes, last year . -- (Interjec tion) -- And that's giving credit for the rebate, yes. A MEMBER: Now you got all the rebate . MR . HANUS CHAK: No . No , in some school divisions we pick up -- Turtle River we pick up 88 percent of the costs, we pick up 88 percent of the costs . But the fact of the matter is, the fact of the matter is, Mr . Chairman , that, you know, what the Honourable Member for St . James rea lly is doing is nothing more than playing with words.

The honourable member knows just as well as I do, the honourable member knows just as well as I do that our tax rebate structure, in fact the tax rebate structure with the two factors built into it, the minimum and then the portion that's adjusted according to one 's income, that that in fact pays the total tax bill for a large percentage of the people, total tax bill -m unicipal and education. And the honourable member knows that.

But really, you know , with a credit of up $250 which, if that's a tax item , if that's tax expense that a taxpayer has to pay, he pays the one bill which, a portion of it of course is earmarked - municipal portion of it is education., And the assistance is there, and in some cases it does take care of the entire amount . -- (Interjecti on) -- No . I 'm talking about the impact that it has on a taxpayer . I'm talking about the impact that it has on a tax payer . -- (Interjection) -- No .

And that's the one that I'm really concerned about, and that's the one that I'm sure that honourable members are concerned about, or they should be conc erned about. The honourable member also wanted to know exactly what amount of the education founda tion grants are, in the current fiscal year I presume , would be applicable to the Ci ty of Winnipeg only . Well at the present time , if the honourable member wishes, I'll be able to obtain these figures.

But the honourable member should know that we pay grants to school divisio ns, to school divisions as entities and with the exception , this figure I do not have, because within the Ci ty of Winnipeg there are many school divisio ns, and there are many school divisions that extend beyond the boundaries of the Ci ty of Winnipeg into other municipalit ies. But if the honourable member wishes it, I will certainly do my best to obtain this information for him at a later time . You know , I should also point out to honourable members when we talk about that . MR . MINAKER: Mr .

Chairman , I wonder if the Minister would allow a question at this time ? MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St . James has a question . MR . MINAKER: Thank you very much, Mr . Chairman . Would the Minister have the figures with regards to the total grant for the province last year from the Finance School Board in regards to assistance to the Ci ty of Winnipeg, what the figure was last year in total grants, excluding any rebate on property owners ? What that grant was from the government for the operation of the education system in the City of Winnipeg and what it was for the whole provinc e.

And would he have the figure for this year . MR . HANUS CHAK: Mr . Chairman, I indicated to the honourable member just a moment ago that we paid grant to school divisions and not to municipaliti es. -- (Interjec tion) -- The total ? Mr . Chairman, we can give a total figure by divisions not by municipalit ie s. The honourable member is asking from his seat if we could add the total of the divisio ns, but as I indicated to the honourable member just a moment ago , that the boundaries of many school divisions extend beyond the boundaries of the Ci ty of Winnipeg.

Just to name some: Seven Oaks , Transcona -Springfield, River East and so forth; so in other words, all of the land contained within the school division does not neces sarily lie within the Ci ty of Winnipeg. So it isn't just a matter ot totalling up the grants for the school divisions you know within Winnipeg. -- (Inter jection) -- Well, Mr . Chairman , yes , I could obtain the total for the school divisio ns, all or a portion of which are for the . .

You know if the honourable member -- I'm not quite certain whether we ought to engage in this type of dialogue or whether it wouldn't be preferable if I'm given the opportunity to make my remarks and then whatever I have not clarified the honourable member would certainly have an opportunity to ask for clarification . I think it would be . MR . CHA IRMAN: Order please . The Honourable Minister has one minute left and any other member can make his contribution following that. MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, Mr .

Chairman , I just wanted to , before we leave the question of grants there was just one other comment here that I wanted to make . I wanted to point out

May 10, 197 4 3401 SUP PLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) .... . to honourable mem bers , Mr. Chairman , that the present grant structure has built-in within it a number of equalizing facto rs . One, in the low assess ment areas the major portion of the Foundation Grant is paid from provincial revenues. The example that I gave, for example Turtle River , the Foundation Grant formula picks up 88 percent,

whereas in the higher asses sed areas the percentage of provincial revenues in the Foundation Grants is proportionately lower . And there was a very good reason for that , and that is the philosophy on which the Foundation Grant formula was established at a time when it was reasonably effective but less so today . And as a further equalizer , Mr. Chairman, capital grants for building purposes cover lOO percent of the approved costs , thus enabling the low asses sed areas to obtain as good schools as anywhere else in the provinc e.

And of course transportation grants cover almost the entire cost of transportation . Well, Mr. Chairman, I will have to continue at a later time . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood . MR. HARVEY PATTE RSON (Cresce ntwood) : Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I didn't realize that we were in for such a long debate on the Department of Education and I realize that it pro bably is one of the most important departments of the government because it does have the nec essary facilities and abiliti es to shape the future of our society .

When we first started off in the department I thought it would roll through rather quickly as the Minister has always impres - sed me as a sort of a quiet spoken, easy-going chap and he seemed to be sitting back taking life rather lei surely and smoking his pipe and sort of not seeming to be too aware of things , but he surprised me . He has responded to the barrage of criticis m and questions and proves to me that he's a Minister to be reckoned with, that he has a lot of gumption and certainly the man to be leading the Department of Education .

It looked to me when we first started off in the debate on the department that. he was going to have rather clear sailing without too many interjections or real in-depth questioning, but as the prodding continued he certainly has responded very well . And I just thought that I should take the opportunity to say a few words and give the Minis ter a little moral support , if nothing else, and also to give him an opportunity of some more time because I can realize that he has many que ries and questions that he hasn't had time to explain to this particular point in the debate.

But there's no doubt in my mind that the Minister is the expert in the field that we need. He's been around in education for a long time, travelled far and wide in the province and his wife is an expert also in education , she 's a former teacher; no doubt he gets plenty of counsel ling from that direction as well, so this probably makes him a better Minister than what might normally be the case . But talking on some of the things that has arisen in the Chamber I just want to say that some of the honourable members talked about the work ethic .

Well I don't think that the work ethic is dead at this time in our history and I think that the students that are presently in the educational system will progress and grow up to be good outstanding citize ns . They will develop, I don't think that we have to be too conc erned about that. They seem to have the ability and the desire to do that .

The only fear that I would express in that regard is that the so -called radicals of today possibly will grow up to be the conservative s of tomorrow , and that is my only concern in that regard and I just hope that some of them will retain some of their radicalism as they go into the adult world and pos sibly follow along in the footsteps of the Minister of Education. There's been much talk about discipline in the school system . I am one that does favour s:>me discipline in the school system .

I think it's good, I don't think it has done any of us any harm and I don't think it will do the children of the future any harm . I 'm a little bit cone erned about the trend toward the permis sivene ss and I would just caution the Mini ster that we shouldn't go ov erboard in that area and just keep things in a proper control and not have too much of a swing one way or the other. I think there's a middle road to play in this given area and I would hope that the Minister would see his way clear to do so .

In regard to discipline of children, I concur with some of the previous comments that the greater responsibility falls on the parents and in this area society seems to be lacking somewhat and I would just like to take some of the onus off the educational system and place it on the parents where it properly should be, because nowadays the parents seems to take sort of an easy-going attitude toward the children and leave it up to the teachers and the professional people to more or less rear the children when it should be the responsibility of the parent, and

3402 May 10, 197 4 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR . PATTE RSON cont'd) • • • I would stress that the parents of Manitoba should take a greater responsible role in the development of their children. There are some of the programs that the department are currently engaged in and I would just like to comme nt and pass along a few complime nts on some of those programs. The G ED system , General Education Development, is a good program .

I know that thousands of students have performed in that program and I think the results have been most gratifying and I would certainly encourage the Minister to carry on that trend, expand it and improve it and do what ever he can to keep that system alive . There is a program that I have been clo sely involved with in the labour field and that is the FOCUS Program and that is a good program as well . The intent and direction of the program has not been all that bad.

There have been a few areas that we have had complaints about but in the main the direction of the program is to inform the worker and bring a higher level of education to people in the work force and I think that that particular emphasis on the program is good. The programs that we have in Adult Education are far reaching, they are very extensive and they are increasi ng .

I think that more and more -I haven't seen the latest statistic s - but I think the enrolment in Adult Education is maintaining the level that it has over the past few years, if not increasing, and I would highly comme nd the department for their efforts in that particular area. Now when we look at the Department of Education, it is one of the departments that is most susceptible to change and it has to change in order to keep up with the time s, but I don't like to see change just for change's sake.

I can recall when my daughter first started school, the Cuise naire system was in effect and I wasn't too impressed with that particular system and I found it didn't do her that much good in an educational sense , so that was one change that I wasn't too pleased with . And I don't know what the evaluation and the end result of that particular pro gram was, but my impr ession was that it was not too succes sful.

I think we are as adults in our society , just by nature I think hesitant to change and I someti mes think that there's an over resi stance to change, but we must continue to experiment, even if we don't change, we must continue to experiment . A MEMBER: Right on . MR . PATTE RSON : I'm going to have an experiment with my honourable member here, very shortly. But this is the connotation that I would put on changes that we experiment to a great deal before we actually go ahead and make the changes that have a profound effect on the educational system .

So I would just like to mention a few of those things to bring my concerns to the attention to the Minister . The recent change that I have seen developed, and I don't think it's in all the hig h schools yet, and that's the semester system , and I must say that I was willing to give it a whirl . But I'm not convinced yet that it 's the best system . My daughter has been involved in that system the last few years and I'm not satisfied that she has progressed through that system any better than what she would have progressed under the former system .

In fact I think pos sibly she might have been somewhat short-changed on the change in that system . Because it 's possibly good for a percentage of the students because they have a lot of desire and self-drive and things like that but when you get the run-of-the-mill type of student, I'm just wondering about the semes ter system . And I would like the Minister to take cognizance of that concern and possi bly explain what direction we are heading in the future as to the seme ster system . I'm concerned about the amount of free time that is allotted or developed through the semester system .

The study periods to me , they should be compulsory , they should be supervised, because all of the students don't have the same desire to get through the educational process as what the more highly confident and qualified students do . So the study periods and free time are two concerns · that I strongly express to the Minister in that regard.

In my brief experience with the educational system in our city, concerning the guidance cousellor s, I think they are required, and I think that the appointment or picking of the guidance counsellors has to be handled by a very delicate process, because it is not too many people that can be a guidance counsellor .

There are many many good guidance counsellors in our system and there's no doubt in my mind that they can help the students, and do help the students, but my concern in this area is the selection of guidance counsellors, and I must say that I have en countered a very small percentage that have been of what I would consider to be an inferior

May 10, 1974 3403 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR . PATT ERSON cont'd) . . quality . But I think this is a general trend in any given segment of our society that we can't all be top notch . But I think the guidance counsellor is one area where we have to stress top notch people, because these are the people that are going to have a great influence on the students in the school system . Some of the honourable mem bers opposite in the front bench had a lot of concern about the tax rebate system . Well, I think it is a quality program .

I think it improves the quality of life for people in Manitoba, and even when the Conse rvative administration had the one shot rebate system for educational purposes , I wasn't objecti onal to their program . I thought it was a good program and maybe it was a good program . There didn't seem to be too much public reaction against it and maybe that's one reason that the Cons ervative government didn't carry it on because it was a good program and people kind of bought it, so maybe that's the reason they cancelled because it was good for the people .

Had it been bad for people, maybe they would have kept it in force, but I certainly didn't object to receiving $50 rebate back on my taxes under the Cons ervative administration . And I certainly have no objection in the direction of the property tax credit program at the present ti me . I think it's a good program and I for one support it , and going amongst the people in my constituency , I haven't got any complaints about the property tax credit program that the Manitoba government has in effect at the present time .

So I would urge the Minister to imp ress upon the Cabinet to keep that program in effect and in fact expand on it , because I think it's a very neces sary program and it certainly helps the people on fixed and low income . Now my colleague from St . Matthews expressed a deep concern about the CORE Report, and I must say that I agree with some of his sentiment s. I read the report once. I haven't had time to study it in great detail and pick out all of the quotations that my honourable colleague did.

I found it to be a very comprehensive document, a very deep document, and I'm not ashamed to say that in certain areas it was over my head. Because I don't pretend to be no expert in the educational field or anything like that and I found the report interesting to read, but I would run into p aragraphs or comments that just didn't make sense to me beca

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-123
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 123.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d0535f34744e1763f2e5572149e159106cee106b

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