Manitoba Hansard — 15 Jilly 1959 (Sitting 26, 26th Legislature, 1st Session)

26-1-26

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

L·e·g·i s 1 a ti ve Assembly 6£ Maftitbb� DEBATES and PROCEEDlN,GS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Volume ill No. 26 July 15, 1959 lst Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans, Queen,s Printer for the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

INDEX Wednesday, Jilly 15, 1959 Page Report of Select -Standing Committee, Law Amendments •.•••.••• •••• ...• , • • • • • • • • • • 953 Proposed Resolution, Housing for Elderly Persons, (Mr. Johnson, Gimli): Mr. O:rlikow 953 Correction of Statement: Mr. Gray .. .••••• .... .••••••••.• .. •.••• ••... •• , . • . • . • • • 954 Questions: M:r. Orlikow (Mr. Thompson) ••••••.•••••.••• .••• .•• ••• .... , •• .• •• •• , • 955 Mr. Paulley (Mr. Thompson), Mr. Guttormson (Mr. Roblin). ..... . ........... . 956 Bill 55, 2nd Reading, re Hospital Serv ices Act (Mr. Johnson, Gimli): Mr.

Wright • , . • 956 Bill 84, 2nd Reading, re T. B. Control Act (Mr. Johnson, Gimli) Committee of Supply 957 Mines and Natural Resources: Replies to Questions, Mr. Evans . • • • • • . • • • • • . . . . . . . • 958 Game Branch •••••••••.•••.•••.•••••••• ••••••• ••••••• ••••••.•••• , • . • • • • • . • 960 Air Service Branch ••.•... .••..•••••..••••••• •••..• •.•. .•.•..••••.. • , . . . • 970 Lands Branch ••• •• •••••• •••...• ••.•••••• , ••••.•.••••••. -.• •••. ..••. •..••.• , 971

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Wednesday, July 15th, 1959. Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. Reading and Receiving Petitions. Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry): .••••••• second report of the Select Standing Committee on law amendments. MR . CLERK: The Select Standing Committee on law amendments beg leave to present the following as their second report. The Committee has considered Bills No. 27,

An Act to amend The Vital Statistics Act; No. 35,

An Act to amend The Treasury Act, and has agreed to report the same without amendment. The Committee has also considered Bill No. 2,

An Act to stabilitate the Economic Development of the Province; 3,

An Act to amend The Highway Traffic Act; 11,

An Act to amend The Winter Employment Act; No. 26,

An Act to amend The Health and Public Welfare Act; No. 30,

An Act to amend The Anatomy Act; No. 45,

An Act to amend The Winnipeg Charter, 1956, to validate By-laws Nos. 17959 and 18073 and has agreed to report the same with certain amendments, all of which is respectfully submitted. MR . LYON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, that the Report of the Committee be received. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Notice of Motion. Introduction of Bills . COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HON. GEORGE JOHNSON, M.D. (Minister of Health and Public Welfare) (Gimli): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Ed11cation, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider the proposed resolutions standing in my name. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole. The Honourable Member for St. Matthews took the Chair. MR . JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been in formed of the subject matter of the proposed resolution, recommends it to the House. MR .

CHAIRMAN: Resolution -- Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to provide for the making of grants from and out of the Consolidated Fund to municipalities and certain non-profit or charitable organizations for the purpose of assisting in the provision of housing accommodation for elderly persons and for the guaranteeing of loans made to such municipalities or organizations for the purpose of providing the accommodation. MR . JOHNSON: Mr.

Chairman, this Bill provides for the expenditure of public funds to non-profit voluntary and charitable organizations and to municipalities to encourage them by . way of grants and guarantee of loans to increase accommodation required for elderly person's housing, both in housing units and in hospital type of accommodation. The grants are for both new construction and renovation and reconstruction of existing facilities. The aim or objective of the Bill is to try and encourage the development of adequate low cost housing accommodation for elderly people.

The Bill provides for a full-time director of elderly persons housing and expenditures therefore required for the -- monies required to operate the director's office. This Bill along with the provision of the Social Allowances Act is part of the government's policy to meet the needs of the aged in this province. MR . D. ORLIKOW (St. John's): Mr. Chairman, this resolution calls for the making of grants out of the Consolidated Fund to municipalities and certain non-profit, etc. organizations.

Now, I'm one of those who believes that certainly in larger areas, the larger urban areas, the meeting of the needs by charitable organizations -- I'm not objecting to them helping, .but for them to do the whole job I think is not to be very realistic. And it would seem to me obvious that what will be required will be for the municipalities to get into this business, in co-operation July l5th, 1959 • Page 953

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd.) •••. with the Federal and Provincial Governments and the grants pro vided by the Federai Government, and I hope by the Provincial Government, are quite generous. But you do run ir:to this problem, that the municipalities, certainly in the case of Winnipeg, are prohibited from making this kind of expenditure without first going to the ratepayers. And the ratepayers, being people who have already purchased their own home, usually take a pretty dim view of putting up public funds to help build homes for somebody else.

They usually take the view that they looked after themselves, they forget of course, that without the provisions of The Housing Act by the Federal Government very few of them could have bought their own homes, but they usually take the view that if they bought their own homes, they see no reason why the municipality in which they live should put up their good tax dollars to help somebody else to get a decent place to live.

Now in the Act which we passed last year in ·relationship to winter employment, there was a yery specific clause which gave the municipalities the right to proceed with financing their share of the cost ·of the winter employment project without going to the ratepayers for approval of the expenditure of that money. And I'm wondering, Mr. Chairman, whether con sideration has been given in this Bill to the same kind of provision, so that the municipalities can really get into this field. I'm satisfied, Mr.

Chairman, that in most cases, unless this is done, in most cases the municipalities will find it virtually impossible to get approval to use municipal funds for this purpose. And without that, Mr. Chairman, I'm satisfied that in the larger municipalities at least the number of units which we're likely to get will be very limited. MR . JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr.

Chairman, this Bill is meant to provide housing for those of our elderly persons in need of more adequate housing and the experience in our department or that I have had since coming to office in meeting with a large group, representative group of both Winnipeggers and rural people, and in meeting with many municipal men, municipali ties and groups of municipalities are anxious to get into the field in developing elderly persons housing. We feel they need more stimulus to do so.

We also find that there are many non profit and charitable institutions and organizations in the Greater Winnipeg area anxious to meet, to go into the field of elderly persons housing. They feel there is a real service to be rendered in this area. And this Bill is designed, as we will discuss more fully on second reading of the Bill, to meet this need.

And I understand what the honourable member means in pointing out that municipalities now have to have a by-law of the ratepayers to develop low cost housing, but this is a special type of low cost housing designed, as I said before, to meet the needs of this special group in our society more especially. MR . CHAffiMAN: Shall the resolution be adopted. Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has adopted a certain resolution, directed me to report the same, and ask leave to sit again. MR; W ;G. MARTIN (st. Matthews): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to i:pove, seconded by the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre, that the Report of the Committee be received. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. Bill No. 24 was read a second time and passed. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR . M.A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, on a point of privilege, I just want to correct an impression given to the House which was not correct.

The Honourable Member from Roblin yesterday, while I was out a few minutes, paid me a great compliment, and I pay my debts and probably I'll pay him a similar compliment in the future. What I wish to correct is this. .He gave the impression that I have said that the average farmer goes to Honolulu after he's through with his threshing. As a matter of fact, I don't think that the •.••.• HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): -Mr. Speaker, I don't like to interrupt my honourable friend, but wouldn't it be possible for him to make his statement on the amendment that is before the House?

He then can .make a full reply to the Member for Roblin and cover the n:.atter thoroughly. I just wonder whether it's in order to make a statement which really is in form of a debating speech at this stage. I know my honourable friend would like to get his view on the record, but I suggest respectfully, Sir, that if he did so on the amendment, which he's entitled to speak on later on, it would be more in keeping with the rules and probably more convenient for getting the poll cif opinion forward. Page 954 July 15th, 1959.

MR . GRAY: I will bow to the ruling of the Speaker, but this is just only one correction and that is all. That what I referred to those who go to Honolulu, are not the farmers but manufacturers of grain, which I had then explained that people have no intention of staying with the farm except putting in their crop and be away. This is the only impression I want to correct because the Free Press has played up very, very heavily today on the front page. When I did say something good, never they use, or they don't mention it. MR . ORLIKOW: Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable N.rinister of Labour. On Thursday, July 8th, which reported on Page 697 of Hansard, I directed the following question to the Honourable N.rinister: "ls it true" - and I quote: "ls it true that union organizers are not now permitted to visit the Kelsey Site, where a power plant is being built for the government?" And the N.rinister answered, Mr. Speaker, and again I quote as follows: "In my opinion, that is not true. ·As far as I know, union organizers can enter Kelsey or any other citizen can enter that area." Now, Mr.

Speaker, having had some experience in this matter, I took the trouble yesterday to phone the CNR ticket office and asked if I could buy a ticket to Kelsey; and I was told, Mr. Speaker, that I could buy a ticket to Pitt Siding. I said, "How do I get from Pitt Siding to Kelsey?" They said, "You'll have to get permission from the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board." Now my in formation is that the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board has leased the railway line to McNamara, Brown and Root, and they won't give permission. Now, Mr. Speaker, this matter was referred to in yesterday's Tribune.

I wonder if the Honourable Minister could tell me in what way this information squares with the answer which he gave me last Thursday. HON. JOHN THOMPSON (Minister of Labour) (Virden): Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to answer the Honourable Member from St. John's. I still say that it is possible for union organ izers or any other citizen to visit the Kelsey Plant.

It is true, and I must confess that I have since found out, since I gave the honourable member the answer which he quoted, that the railway line from Pitt Siding on the Hudson Bay Railway to Kelsey has been leased to McNa:mara, Brown and Root, the contractor for the Hydro-Electric Board in that area. And they do control the rail line from Pitt Siding into Kelsey.

However, there are other ways of travel than rail, and there is nothing at all to prevent the honourable member or any member of any union, or any citizen to fly into Kelsey, to land at the dock there and to establish his camp in the area and to meet people as he or they may wish. There is nothing to stop air transport.

It is true that McNama:ra may deny a permit to anyone other than an employee to use their rail line but no one can stop transportation by airlines.· And in case the honourable member obtains the wrong impression in the future, I might say that McNamara, Brown and Root, as I understand it, built the dock for air landings, but it is controlled by the Hydro-Electric Board. The Manitoba Hydro and Electric Board control the dock and they will not prevent anyone from landing on the Nelson River and coming up and using that dock and going about their business.

Now the only restriction, I might add, the only restriction that I know of in connection with setting up camp in the northern areas is a permit from the Director of the Crown Lands Branch. I understand that before you can esta blish camp in that area or in any of the Crown land areas of the north, you should really have a permit from the Director of Crown Lands and to my knowledge there is no intention of re fusing citizens a permit to set up camp in that area. MR .

ORLIKOW: Then I take it from the N.rinister that the Director of Crown Lands will be easier in granting permits than was the local administrator at Thompson. We've been through this and we are going to be through this again, Mr. Speaker, before this Session is over. MR . THOMPSON: I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that I inferred the other day in answering the honourable gentleman that the Thompson area is under the control of an agreement with the International Nickel Company and that agreement contains certain provisions about setting up tents or ca:mpsites in order, of course, to prevent what has been referred to as a shack town, so there were restrictions in that respect. I know of no such restrictions at Kelsey. MR . ORLIKOW: •.... ..•...•.. Mr, Chairman, to the Honourable Minister, possibly in his capacity as N.rinister of Municipal Affairs.

If the project manager of McNama:ra-Brown told a union organizer that while he could land on the river, he couldn't land because a security guard would prevent him landing, was he exceeding his authority? It has to do with the question July 15th, 1959. Page 955

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd.) ••.• whether they can camp or not. MR . THOMPSON: Mr. Speaker, I must consider that a hypothetical question. I am not familiar with any faets like that and I am unable to give an answer. I believe I've stated the position in connection with landing at Kelsey. MR . R. PAULLEY (Leader of the CCF Party) (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, may I ask a further question of the Honourable the Minister of Labour?

Am I given to unders tand that the Hydro-Electric Board built this railway and then leased it to the construction company and. under the terms of the lease, there is prohibition for anybody other than employees of the con struction company going from Pitt Siding to Kelsey? MR . THOMPSON: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the Honourable the Leader of the CCF, I am not sure just who built the railway from Pitt Siding to Kelsey.

I do know it's -- I believe it was constructed by Hydro-Electric, I believe it was, and it has been leased, it is true, to McNamara, Brown and Root som� several months or a year or two ago whenever tbis project began. I haven't seen the lease, I haven't seen the lease controlling the rules and regulations of who should use the rail line. I presume it was built for the employees at the present stage, but I will endeavour to ascertain the provisions of the lease in that respect. MR .

PAULLEY: I would suggest that the Honourable the Minister should do that and look into the lease because it appears to me to be a pretty restrictive lease if it's just applied so that the employees of the company •.... A MEMBER: ..•.•• or anybody else who .•... .• MR . E. GUTTORMSON (st. Ge orge): Mr. Speaker, at the last session of the Legisla ture, I brought to the attention of the First Minister that a certain individual in my constituency laid claim to the council that he had authority to speak on behalf of this government and in ef fect make some promises on their behalf.

The council is reluctant to believe this but thought they would write the First Minister for clarification, advising they wrote on two occasions and are still waiting for a reply. When I brought it to the attention of the First Minister and. he said that he would look into the matter. And very recently the council came to me and said that they still hadn't had a reply and that they would like to have the matter cleared up. JVIR. ROBLIN: My honourable friend reminds me of the Duke of Wellington. He went walking in Hyde Park one day and somebody came up to bim and said, "Mr.

Smith, I believe?" And the Duke replied, "If you believe that, you'll believe anything". My honourable friend's statement that certain people go around holding themselves out as speaking for the Government of Manitoba, I think comes into that particular category. The people who are authorized to speak for the government are well known and we can make no undertaking to hold ourselves out as responsible for other people who might make similar statements. MR . GUTTORMSON: Has the First Minister replied to the letter written by the council and let them know then?

They wrote twice to you asking for you to clarify the situation and they thought it was important enough that you write. MR . ROBLIN: I may have received letters but to the best of my knowledge, it is not an official letter from the council. If it is an official letter from the council, it was ilot phrased in such a way that I understood it to be such a letter. But I have no hesitation in telling the council through you, Mr. Speaker, and through my honourable friend that only those people who are properly authorized can hold themselves out to speak for the government. MR .

GUTTORMSON: I appreciate your answer, Mr. Minister, but I was just saying they asked me to raise this question to you because tbis man has persistently made claims that he is representing this government and given them assurance of certain financial projects, and they don't like it and they want a· clarification. He has done it on numerous occasions. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the .Day. Adjourned debate of Bill No. 55. The Honour- able Member for Seven Oaks. MR . A.E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr.

Speaker, the Hospital Services Plan is now slightly over one year old and we must realize that a lot of hard work has gone into setting up this plan. I would especially like to thank the Minister, the Minister of Public Health and Wel fare, for bis sympathetic understanding. I know that he has been beseiged on all sides with many of us. seeking answers to our problems and, speaking for myself, I really appreciate bis understanding. Like most other things in life, the Hospital Plan is no exception and is not per fect.

It has many faults so it's quite appropriate that after one year of operation that we are Page 956 July 15th, 1959.

(Mr. Wright, cont'd.) .••• now looking at some amendments. In regard to dependants, I now see that an insured person can now have as a dependant his widowed mother and I raised the question in the Ho'.lse last year about a widowed mother with single children working at home, and I am assured by the Honourable Minister that simi lar cases to this have now been looked after. I-would like to make mention in. the Bill, with all due deference to our legal friends, I still think that 11.lines containing 100 words in one sentence is a little too much for my lay mind to comprehend.

There must be an easier way of making it clear, and I'm not too sure yet under that clause Vlhether or not the case that I re ferred to the Honourable Minister is taken care of. However, that can be referred to the Com mittee and we can discuss it there. I know that employers are concerned over The Hospital Services Act. For instance such cases as this - that a man could get laid off on August lst and doesn't find a job until April, let's say seven months.

According to this the employer must collect the full amount of arrears in respect to the past benefit period plus the next suc ceedin g period of seven months times $4.10, which would be $28. 70. Any man who has been off work and living off on unemployment insurance just cannot afford to pay out this $28. 7 O. He hasn't got it. We must remember, Mr.

Speaker, that the average wage for Manitoba is slightly less than $2, 500. 00 and even if the wording were changed to order the employer to de duct the $28. 70 from the employee, from his first pay.:.. cheque, it is still not good enough be cause the $28. 7 0 probably represents three-quarters of the man's earnings. AI).d after all, since the minimum wage is only 609 it is even conceivable that the man wouldn't get any pay at all. Sixty times 44 hours is only $26.40, less than unemployment insurance, and since the man now has a job, he CB!} no longer collect unemployment insurance benefits.

Now the municipalities - I should further say, Mr. Speaker, ·that in the case of young fellows starting work for the first time, this problem is often faced by employers. The muni cipalities, too, are not too happy about it. They are quite concerned over the Act because residence qualification under The Municipal Act hold municipalities responsible for 12 months after a person has moved from the area. For example, a person resides in a certain munici pality and moves away from the area, he could become 19 years of age in the meantime and apply for a job - at least, suddenly takes sick.

The original municipality has no knowledge of his existence or his whereabouts. Suddenly he becomes ill and is hospitalized. The original municipality is billed for his hospital account because his premiums have not_ been paid. It seems to me that the purposes of the hospital insurance residence qualifications should be amended to 30 days, similar to those in Saskatchewan.

The municipalities have an opportunity to pay arrears and premiums without having to worry about the hospital accounts provided they have committed themselves into guaranteeing premiums for all persons who might turn out to be residents of their municipality. This, I believe, the Minister explained the other day. But the municipalititis feel that ll!asmuch as the hospital plan is a federal-provincial plan that they should not be expected to guarantee premiums nor should they be as at present, sub jected t;o much worry in the matter of collections.

Some municipal men feel that it would be much easier to be a partner in this scheme because then they could budget the hospital pre miums for every resident and at least they would maintain contact with ail insured persons. Now I was thinking, while I am standing here, Mr. Speaker, that the old age pensioners too, suffer under the six months prepayment of hospital premiums. I think that it does work a hardship on those living on limited means to be asked to pay the $24.60 in advance, and I think that some method of monthly deductions from their social security cheques could be looked into.

Now we are happy that these amendments are being considered at this session but I would ask the Honourable the Minister to consider some of the problems which are now showing up and give them serious consideration. Mr. Speaker presented the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. Mr .. Johnson (Gimli) pre·sented Bill No. 84 for second reading. MR . JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, this is

an Act to amend The Tuberculosis Con trol Act. I am speaking to the principle of this Bill. The Sanitorium Board of Manitoba, as we know, is a voluntary organization whose record of achievement in the administration of the provincial sanatoria over the years has been exceptional and I think it is probably one of the greatest examples of v.h ere co-operation between a government agency such as the July 15th, 1959. Page 957

(Mr. Johnson, cont'd.) .••• Department of Health and Public Welfare of the province and a spirited group of volunteers have combined to make such a tremendous contribution to the pro vince as we saw in the estimates on the tuberculosis control this year. Now shortly after com ing to office, a study of a committee which I appointed or we had advising the Minister and the department concerning the alternative care facilities that were available in the province - these studies indicated that, and it came to our attention as I say, that the sanatoria were anxious to see their empty beds utilized.

The government approached the Board and after many discus sions, it was decided to approach the federal authorities with a view to declaring certain areas in the Clearwater Sanatorium at The Pas and the Brandon Sanatorium which is now being re named Assiniboine Hospital, as facilities under the hospital plan for the care of the long-term chronically ill patients in those parts of the province. The federal authorities agreed to this arrangement and an agreement was completed January lst, '59 whereby these beds in these institutions were declared as facilities under the Manitoba Hospital Services Plan.

Now the 'amendments to 'E;e Tuberculosis Control Act are therefore necessary in order to authorize the board to use these facilities in order to care for the sick and disabled in addi tion to the tuberculosis patients. It authorizes the board to make agreements between the Government of Canada and the Government of Manitoba for the diagnosis and treatment pur poses, and gives them the power to issue and sell securities. Now the amendment follows a deeision by the government to enter into an agreement with the Sanatorium Board whereby the board will develop a rehabilitation hospital in the Greater Winnipeg area.

The Committee which we had last summer assisting us in an advisory capacity which I have previously indicated to the House was a very representative group and they felt that immediately the Province of Manitoba could do something themselves towards relieving the hospital situation in the province and the Rehabilitation Commission of this province concurred in a suggestion of this government that possibly this fine organization, The Sanatorium Board of Manitoba, might be encouraged to enter the field of rehabilitation now that their activities in tuberculosis were somewhat less.

Now this board, many meetings were held and this board concurred in this suggestion and this is the beginning of our plan for the -- was the beginning of our plans to draw up an agreement with them whereby this rehabilitation hospital would be built in the Greater Winnipeg area, and I'd be glad to discuss further matters concerning this hospital when the item of capital supply comes along. That then is the principle and the changes that are seen in the -- this Act. Mr. Speaker presented the motion, and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Committee of Supply. MR . ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker presented the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Would the Honourable Member for St. Matthews take the Chair? MR . CHAIRMAN: TP,e Department of Mines and Natural Resources. Item 6. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Fort Rouge): Mr.

Chairman, I thought I'd take the occasion at the opening of this se·ssion to reply to questions that you were asking me last night. A question by the Honourable the Leader of the Qpposition as to the approximate boundaries of the south-east Manitoba area or project. The answer is that it's bounded on the east and south by Ontario and the United States, on the west by the Municipalities of La Broquerie, Ste. Anne and Tache arid the Local Government District of Stuartburn. That would be taken to mean that it does not include those districts but rather the eastern boundaries of them.

On the north, by the Greater Winnipeg Water District railway to Hadashville, and then east from there to the west boundary of the Whiteshell. The total area consists of approximately 75 townships. And with regard to the roads - to resources - two questions really come together, one dealing with the mileages in question, and the other dealing with the approximate costs or as nearly as they can be estimated at the present time. The road distances with one minor varia tion of only two miles are those that were quoted last night, and I repeat them now adding the distance from Grand Rapids to Wabowden.

In order to have the records then all in one piece I will read this list; Manigotagan to Beresford Lake - 50 miles; Beresford Lake to Cat Lake - 25 miles; Bird Lake to the Ontario Boundary - 6 miles; Simonhouse to Thompson - 200 miles; Page 958 July 15th, 1959.

(Mr. Evans, cont'd.) ..•. Snow Lake to Osborne Lake - 12; Gypsumville to Grand Rapids - 120; Grand Rapids to the Wabowden area - 130 miles; or a total of 543 miles.

In regard to the estimate of costs, I will read out the -- I was going to say estimated costs, but I would want to even qualify that word, but at the present stage most of the costs are based on examination of aerial photographs and I feel sure that everyone will understand that that cannot form the basis of an estimate of cost in the ordinary sense, but if it is understood then to be an early approximation of what the costs are thought to be, I'll give'the following figures.

The Central Manitoba Mining area roads - $1, 835, 000.00; Osborne Lake road - $300, 000.00; Simonhouse - Thompson Road - $8, 650, 000.00; and Gypsumville to the vicinity of Wabowden - $8, 770, OOO; or a total of $19, 485, OOO. 00, approximately 19 1/2 million dollars, and I would like to make some comments on that total. There will be recoveries under this from the International Nickel Company and I think I'm correct in saying from the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company in connection with the Osborne Lake road which are expected to be between $400, OOO. 00 and $500, OOO. 00 together.

Then there is some possibility, if not a probability, that within this contract period, the Mani toba Hydro-Electric Board may elect to proceed with the plans - with the Hydro Plant at Grand · Rapids. Within their normal cost of construction they have been figuring on means of trans portation then to the Grand Rapids site, and some unspecified amount at the moment would be expected to be shared by them in connection with the road. But there are further considerations also in this connection.

Prior to the offers by the Dominion Government in connection with the roads to resources, work had commenced on the Simonhouse to Wekusko road, which is a part of the Thompson road under the agreements, the estimated cost of which is in the neighborhood of $2, 600, OOO. 00. Then also the roads in the central Manitoba area had been planned and con struction had been commenced in that connection on projects estimated to cost $1, 800, OOO. 00.

We have succeeded in persuading the Government of Canada to take these particular projects, even though started and even though in some cases partially completed, in under the agree ment, and consequently to share in those projects 50-50 where the Provincial Government had been prepared to provide those costs themselves.

But perhaps the main point is this, that we confidently expect a renewal of the agreement at the end of the five to seven year period and are laying our plans accordip.gly and making these views known as well as we can at this stage to the Government of Canada, so that if all of this road is not completed within the five to seven year period we contemplate negotiating for the renewal of that contract at least to project the road eastward from the Wabowden area through to God's Lake and down to Island Lake as discoveries of mineral or forest resources, or opportunities for development present themselves.

So there are two factors which bear on that total of 19 1/2 million dollars. One is that amounts in the neighborhood of five million dollars or more will likely be recovered either from the mining companies or being shared by the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board and then there were amounts taken from previous commitments and transferred under this agreement by the Government of Canada and shared on a 50-50 basis. I hope that provides the information the honourable member asked for, or the honourable members, I believe there were two of them. MR . CAMPBELL: I think pretty largely, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to suggest to the Minister however, Mr. Chairman, that he is in error, I believe, in assuming that the Thompson -- the Simonhouse - Wekusko road was begun without any negotiation or even commitment by the Federal Government. I'm quite sure that that road and some others in the north were ac cepted by the Federal Government as shareable -costs. However, one other matter that !' d like to ask here arising out of the questions of yesterday. Did the Minister get the approximate distance between Grand Rapids and Wabowden? MR . EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I quoted that in the figures that I read.

Let me re ..... peat it. Grand Rapids to the Wabowden area 130 miles, and then when that is added in, the total became 543. MR . CAMPBELL: Only 130? MR . EVANS: Yes. Just on the comment of the Leader of the Opposition it is not my understanding that any assurance had been received from Canada that the Simonhouse to Thomp son Road would be taken in under that agreement. My understanding is, in fact of course, the complete agreement has orily just been arrived at now, and my understanding is that that July 15th, 1959. Page 959

(Mr. Evans, cont'd.) •••• negotiation was completed within the last year. MR . CAMPBELL: But even though that complete agreement has been arrived at now, I understood the Minister to say, Mr. Chairman, that it had not yet been signed, and as far as we were concerned we also had a verbal agreement at that time. MR . CHAIRMAN: Item 6 (a) (

b) MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, is there going to be an early shoot of ducks this year in the fields, as there has in the last two or three years, I mean that is, in the stubble, not in the marshes. Is there going to be an early shoot as there has been, or is it discontinued? :MR. EVANS: I will get for the honourable member the recommendations or the proposals that were made by one of the officials of the department at the Clear Lake Convention of the Manitoba Game and Fish Association.

The regulations for this year have not yet been authorized or passed and so I'm not able to quote the firm regulation, but I will ask the officials to tell me what position was discussed with the Game and Fish Association that will give you some indica tion. MR . N. SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr. Chairman, at what point in the estimates under Mines and Natural Resources do we discuss the duck feeding stations or the duck feeding pro gram? Well, at what point, or shall I do it now? MR .

EVANS: I think it's far more a qiestion of the Game Branch than it is of predator control and for that reason I suggest we do it now. MR . SHOEMAKER: I had the privilege last fall, one wet day,in the harvest season, of driving out to the feeding station at - east of Langruth and as I said, it was a wet day. Most of the grain had been swathed and was lying in the swath and I travelled over a hundred miles that day and I didn't find one duck eating grain in the fields.

When I arrived at the duck feeding station I found millions of them literally, so I'm completely sold on the value of the duck feeding stations, completely sold on it. The people in the area are already enquiring as to what the policy is for the coming year. True, we don't know now whether we will experience a wet fall or not, but they are very much interested in knowing that something will be done if we do have a wet season again. Now I know that some men argue and some gove=ent officials argue that there --the farmers in the area benefit in this way.

That because of the fact that ducks are numerous in the area, that there will be plenty of hunters in there, and the whole country will benefit be cause of the huge amount of money that these hunters spend, but the people in the Langruth area and along the western shore of Lake Manitoba are a little reluctant to believe that story.

In fact they claim that some of the duck hunters are -as much a problem as the ducks themselves, and one man even suggested to me when I raised this point, he said, "You know these Americans come up with one shirt and one ten dollar bill and they go back home without changing either one of them." Now, the farmers in that area are particularly interested in being assured that if they have occasion -- if we do have a wet fall that the duck feeding program as started a year or two ago, will be carried out again this year. MR . EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, in answer to a question on this subject by the Leader of the Opposition the other day, I mentioned that I was going to meet those concerned within the next two weeks_ to discuss this matter and I think it will not be expected that I would give an answer before I s peak to them. I would like to suggest to the honourable member that that is a very unfortunate reference to our American tourists, say, coming to this country.

They do in fact spend a great deal of money, and I would not want the impression created anywhere in public that they are not welcome here, that we don't find them acceptable when they come here, or that they're indeed stingy spenders of any kind. I do not think that we should acknowledge that position in public at all. - MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr. Cpairman, that I should qualify by saying this, that the people in that area went on to say this.

That we in the Langruth, Amaranth area don •t see any of their money because they'll go back to Pottage la Prairie, possibly, and spend the night in one of their beautiful motels there, and - or they'll go back into Winnipeg and change their $10.00 and their shirt, but so far as leaving money in the immediate vicinity, now that's what they meant, leaving money in the immediate vicinity, it just doesn't happen. MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister said a moment ago he wasn't sure what the regulations would be regarding the fall shoot of ducks. The past few years they have -Page 9.60 July Uth, ±959 •

(Mr. Guttormson, cont'd.) ••.• allowed the duck hunter to shoot in the stubble the beginning of September and then open the shooting in the marshes roughly three weeks later.

I would like to suggest to the Minister that he abolish the shooting -- the early shoot in the stubble, because I think it serves no real value, the ducks have not matured properly at that time of the year, the weather is considerably warmer than the latter part of September, the ducks won1t keep and in addition to that the hunters for the most part are breaking the law anyway, because the rules say they must stay, I think it is within a hundred yards of the potholes and they're not doing that, and the Game Guardians just can't enforce the regulations the way they should be, and I would suggest that the Minister consider abolishing that early shoot and just open the season all over the. province or that is, in the marshes and the stubble at the same time, as the cus tom was a few years ago, around the 21st of September.

MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, as the Honourable the Minister knows, I am very in terested in this feeding program, and I assume that the people who are coming in to discuss that question with him will include representatives of the Portage la Prairie area, because they were, I think, the pioneers in that particular experiment. Mr. Jim Clark has been very, very active in it and he is, I would say, one of the very best informed in connection with it.

I have not been as familiar with the program of this past season as I was with the one the year before, but as the Minister reports on its effectiveness in the season 1958, and then -- so that I don't have to get the Minister to answer question at a time, Mr. Chairman. Might I ask him at the same time, who from the department represented the Department of the Game Branch at the conference that was held in St. Louis, Missouri in March 158:? I observe from the report of the department that this problem was outlined to the North American Wild Life Conference in March 158 at St. Louis, Missouri.

Pd like to know who represented the department and could we have a copy of, or a digest of the report that was presented to them, because I think it1s very important that we keep the departmental officials in close touch with those experi- ments and with the thinking of the people like Mr. Clark who have been conducting them, or. at least co-operating in them. And -- then as far as the remarks of my honourable friend from st.

George are concerned, I'd just like to suggest to the Minister that subject to what the people from the Portage la Prairie district who know more about this program than I do, subject to what they say, but assuming that they're going to urge its continuance this year, then I certainly also urge that it be continued, unless something has happened in the past year that I'm not aware of, I'm sure that it's more than justified, but if for any reason it should not be carried on, then I would want to put in a disclaimer on the representations of my colleague from St.

George, because if that program is not carried on, then the early shooting on the stubble is quite essential, as far as crop protection is concerned. However, I much prefer the Feeding Program. Provided it is carried on, then I think I could agree with the stand he takes. MR . EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I think the two programs, the one last year and the one the year before are quite similar in effectiveness and in cost. l recall the. figure of $35, 000.00 for the first years and the $30, 000.00 for last year as being the cost.

I think in effectiveness in the sense of keeping the ducks on the feeding plots and away from the. fields themselves, my information is that the results were again quite similar to the first year of the experiment. Beyond that I expect the. Leader of the Opposition would not expect me to go before this confer ence. I will ascertain who represented the Department at st. Louis and undertake to get either the report or a digest of the report that 'Yas made to the conference at that time. MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr.

Chairman, despite what the Leader of the Opposition has said about ducks; I would suggest that if you must have a type of shoot in the fall, you grant permiss ion to the farmers whose fields are bothered, but I would certainly advocate abolishing the gen eral shootthroughout the province on the fields, because for the most part - in many parts of the province, the ducks .I don1t think are the hazard that they're claimed to be. In fact, another point I'd like to raise about the ducks.

I've been an avid duck hunter since I was allowed to carry a gun and I found during the last few years duck population seems to have been,dimin., ishing. It seems to me that every year there seems to be more ducks being taken in Canada and the United States.

And these American hunters, and I'm not objecting to their coming here, but they are coming down into .Canada in droves shooting as soon as the season opens in Mani toba or other parts of Canada, and then as the .seasons open gradully later in the year in the southern states they follow the shoot and millions of ducks are just slaughtered, every year and July 15th, 1959. Page 961

(Mr. Guttormson, cont'd.) • • • • I think our duck population is diminishing rapidly. I think the canvasba ck. is one of the birds that's seriously facing extinction and I was wondering whether the Minister has any figures on duck population and whether this Department has ever given any consideration to being the leader in a conservation program which must be considered by the United States as well because most of the ducks are slain in the United states. MR . JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr.

Chairman, tonight I have listened with great interest to this controversy on ducks and I would just like to add that we don't have these difficulties, and prob ably the finest duck shooting country in Manitoba north of Riverton and H�cla Island and I do agree with the Leader of the Opposition, that the only trouble we have in that whole large area is with the advent of the ducks into the field prior to the season, but I feel that the regulations in the past in this large area of duck shooting that we have in the Gimli area has benefited from the, as I say, the former regulations.

I'm just saying this is an individual from Gimli, but we get all sorts of Americari tourists up our way, by the hundreds, in the fall of the year and we have had I think a greater duck population this year coming up than ever before. MR . J.M •. HAWRYLUK (Burrows): Mr. Chairman, to follow up the discussion of this -I'm sorry. MR . EVANS: •.. ••.••. .... I answered that question in regard to the number of birds kill ed.

In the information I have here the ducks and geese are combined in one total under the heading of •waterfowl" but for the season 1954 there were 340, OOO; 1955, 386, OOO; 1956, 549, OOO; and in 1957, 581, OOO. The number of hunters has been increasing also, in about the same pro portion it seems as I look at the figures now. Very largely resident hunters. There were 23, 632 in 1954; 25, 324 in 1955; 29, OOO in 1956; and nearly 31, OOO in 1957. Those figures compare. with a very much smaller number of non-residents being in the following figures for the years mentioned: 1, 308, 1, 619, 1, 8ll, 2, 430.

That is the information I have on the amount of birds killed. I believe it is true to say that the number of birds that are thought to be in the flocks, or whatever you want to call it - the number of birds which have joined in the fly-away this year - is thought to be reduced and naturally this is always a matter of concern. The pressure of hunting is very heavy indeed, especially at certain points where the ducks tend to come into a funn el as they do at the foot of the two great lakes and at certain other places, some of them in south-west Manitoba.

Certain species, if I am correct, and I think from memory the canvas back and one other, do appear to be in some danger, if not of extinction, of being very severely reduced in numbers. A number of hunters that I know, particularly those belonging to certain lodges and who are experienced enough to recognize one duck from another in flight, have voluntarily either rationed themselves or controlled themselves to prevent the taking of the canvasback in an effort to preserve that species, and I believe that movement is also being pushed forward as hard as it can in the United states.

I have no information about the total numbers that may be breeding up north and which will join in the flight this fall. MR . HA WRYLUK: Mr. Chairman, just to follow up the discussion, I have an interesting . report here from an American paper which - the heading says "Duck Crop Outlook Looks Very Dim". This evidently was a meeting that took place in st. Louis, and the comments made there by Mr. Kimball, who is the Minnesota's Game and Fish Director, who has this to say; that the combined, that is the nest range has decreased from 40 to 80 percent, although Minnesota shows only a 7 percent decrease.

But this statement here - this combined with a marked decrease in the breeding duck population over most of the prap-ie pothole region, is adding up to the gloomy prospects for this fall's hunting. And futher to that, it says that the reports on the water areas show a 45 percent decrease in Alberta, 53 percent decrease in Saskatchewan and 54 percent decrease in Manitoba.

This water report on the water show a 45 percent decrease in Alberta in regard to the number of potential breeding areas, and it's quite interesting be cause no doubt that we are faced with a problem that may be here in the future because of the influx of more and more duck hunters coming into the various areas. And possibly the only suggestion I can make is that maybe the government will be faced with curtailing the number of bags of ducks that will have to be taken out on a certain day, because the situation is getting critical, not only in the prairie provinces but also in the States across the line. MR .

EVANS: When I bring back the information as to the proposed - or if by that time final - regulation for this year, I will endeavour to give some background biological information to indicate how those regulations correspond with the supply of ducks or the breeding that's going . on. Page 962 July 15 th, 1959.

MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. C:l}airman, just to clarify a point raised by the Minister of Health. The area which I represent is one of the fi nest duck hunting areas in the province, and they are still getting good shoots up there . But the point I wanted to make is this, that shoots ate not as good - are gradually getting worse each year . Hunters who have been shooting in the area for many years, all of them report the same thing, that the number of ducks being taken are greatly reduced, and each year it takes much longer to get their bag limit.

And I know my fa ther who has I think, a better than average knowledge of the shooting game - he's been shooting since the days they allowed to shoot ducks on a professional basis, when you were allowed to sell them - and the story he tells me .is there are no ducks in comparison with the early days, and especially the canvasback. He says you rarely see them, and he's quite adept at identifying the diff erent birds - different species - on the wing.

And I certainly think that we are faced with a problem and unless something is done with it - I don't suggest that this government can do it; it's got to be done on a co-operative basis with other provinces and the United states, but something's got to be done because we are going to face in a few years' time, with the large number of hunters . Everybody is hunting.

I remember a few short years ago when I first started shooting, there wasn't nearly the number of hunters, and 'Ilow up in that country every slough, every pothole is chuck full of outside hunters in the area, and it's got to tell on the duck population. And T think something1s got to be done to try and curtail the decrease in the duck population. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, .•..... before him now just what the bag limits are and the days of hunting, because I think if he is able to give those to the Committee it will be seen that there have been gradual restrictions along the lines that have been mentioned.

Now I'm in agreement with those who have spoken, however, that the increasing "gun pressure" as the experts call it, has more than made up for the limites on days of hunting and bag limits and season limits . Because while those have been cut considerably, the numbers of shooters, I'm sure, has much more than made up for it as the figures that the Minister gave indicated. -Back in the days that the Honourable Member for St.

George is talking about, not only were there unlimited amounts available, but shooting in those days actually started on the first day of September and continued throughout the year - at least until the ducks left . And the slaughter was tremendous - I use that word advisedly - the slaughter in those days, and that• s one of the things, of course, that• s responsible for the situation now . But I think it is a fact that we have to be pretty careful to see that we don't further deplete the seed stock, and we have to remember, Mr.

Chairman, that this is the area that, even though the duck is an -international bird, this is the area that is its home, because this was where they raise their fam ilies and while the Inter national Convention is important too, it's very, very important to look after the m in their home area. Now I would like to - if the Minister has that inf ormation- to get his report on that and, Mr.

Chairman, I will give notice now that I want to say something very briefly about pheasants because I find it very difficult to watch these folks back behind me who are jumping up, and I don •t want you to slip past the Item until I get my word in regarding pheasants . MR . EVANS: Mr. Chairman, if I may just answer this question. I don't have the bag limits and days of hunting for previous years with me, but would it be acceptable if I reported them at the same time as we discuss the bag limits proposed for this ye ar? MR . A.J. REID (Kildonan): Mr.

Chairman, while fishing out at the northern part of Lake Manitoba a couple of weeks ago - I don't think you can answer this one - they're so thick out there you can knock them down with a stick, but what amazes me is what happens to them when the season opens? What control the Minister's got over that ? He can't answer that, but every time you go out when the season opens then they've disappeared. MR . EVANS: That' s one of the things - the duck is one of the best conservation methods that we have. MR . G. MOLGAT (ste . Rose): Mr.

Chairman, before we leave the matter of ducks, the Minister mentioned the question of canvasbacks. If I remember properly, last fall his Depart ment had something to say about that - the serious situation in canvasbacks. Has anything been done to find out the reason for the decrease in it - is it a question of low water or high water, is it a question of food, is there a study on to determine the cause for the decrease in the population? MR . EVANS: To report on the thing, I'll enquire and see if there _is any info rmation I July 15th, 1959. Page 963

(Mr. Evans, cont'd.) •... can get for the honourable member . MR . CHAIRMAN: (

c) Passed. (

d) Passed. Resolution •.•• · MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I still have my remarks to make on pheasants . On page 75 of the report there's a - there appear a couple of short paragraphs on pheasants, then over several pages on 86, under the - what' s called the "biological investigation" there's another two or three paragraphs . It seems to me that the two do not agree too well and I hope that it's not on the basis of this that the Honourable the Minister has intimated to the Committee that the program with regard to the introduction of pheasants may not be carried on another year.

I know that that was not a definite statement and I would like to suggest that it be given very careful consideration. It says on 75 - it seems to me that this is a rather negative report re garding the pheasants - but when we get over to 86 under the "biological investigation" area, we read that efforts were continued in 1957 - of course this is the 157 year rather than the 158 under review - to bolster wild pheasant populations in the far south-we st and to establish new populations elsewhere in the province. Details of releases were given in the Game Birds sec tion of this report.

That' s the one to which I referred earlier . Releases were made without serious mishap and good survival was noted intothe fall months. Then it tells about a survey and all the rest . Mr. Chairman, my only point is that if good survival is noted into the fall months, that in itself is, I think, very important, and then later we see figures collected in this survey indicated good pheasant survival during. the previous winter and a significant increase in male birds over spring of 1956 .

Now on that basis I would suggest that we should consider very carefully the continuation of this. program because Pm of the opinion that one of the great drawing cards to our hunters, even though they do not get very many pheasants - and as one who has attempted to hunt them on a couple of occasions, I don't wonder that they don't get very many; they're a real difficult bird to collect - but surely on the basis of this report unless there's something has happened in the year just past, we should not be considering abandonment of the program. MR . EVANS : It appears, Mr.

Chairman, that the winter is the period in which the birds themselves are depleted . The census is made each year on the basis of the male calls that can be traced by biologists in the field. We are not relying purely on the information that is report ed in that annual report for 1958. The information that I have with me at the moment says the pheasant situation in the south-we stern corner of Manitoba was appraised again in the spring of 1958. The censusing technique involving the counting of male breeding calls is carried out each year at this time to measure the size of the breeding population.

The count in 1958 revealed no appreciable change in the size of Manitoba's pheasant resources . This finding was discourag ing in view of the fact that several thousand birds had been released in the previous summer. Summer studies on the pheasant were primarily concerned with the selection of release sites, and the subsequent liberation of the birds that had been purchased from a pheasant breeder in South Dakota. A total of 6, OOO birds were set free in five districts of southern and western Manitoba in July and August of 1958. Subsequent studies in the fall revealed excellent survival to the onset of winter.

Then the census was again taken in the spring of this year and again we were disappointed in the estimated population at that ti me. Now as I think the Honourable Leader of the Opposition recognizes, I did not make the statement it was to be discontinued but that no further releases were being made pending the evaluation of this program and a decision has yet to be made. MR . CAMPBELL: My point is howeve r, Mr.

Chairman, that if they survive into the fall then they are there for game bird shooting in the fall, and that in itself, I think, is a consider able attraction to the hunters and perhaps a larger ·limit and longer days could be given for hunting inasmuch as it could be assumed that they may not over-winter in any case . MR . EVANS : Mr. Chairman, that is a recognized tourist-attracting technique, not only with regard to birds but with reg.ard to fish.

In certain provinces, my understanding is, that where they will not find adequate spawning grounds , the fish are nevertheless released for a year - mature fish are released in order to be there for the anglers to take. ·T he Honourable Leader of the Opposition is suggesting much the sa:me technique with regard to pheasants . Certainly we will evaluate that factor during the time we are considering the whole question. MR . M. N. HRYHORC ZUK, Q.C. (Ethelbert Plains): Mr. Chairman, I was somewhat disappointed in noticing that the item 6 (

c) has been considerably reduced - in fact reduced to Page 964 July 15th, 1959 .

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd.) ••.• the point of 16 percent. I think that there is room here for a substantial_increase . It appears to me, Mr. Chairman, that our big difficulty here, and not only in the Province of Manitoba but elsewhere in Canada, is the lack of knowledge about the habits of fish, game - all forms of wildlife . We're getting pretty close to the time where we will have to have conside rably more knowledge if we want to bring in a good and sensible pro gram of conservation and utilization. In the southern part of the province the situation is serious in certain portions .

In other parts of the province we are not making the utilization of our game that we should be, and I think that is due in no sm all me asure to the fact that we lack the fundamental knowledge of good wildlife management. I believe that sometime last year I saw a press release where this government saw fit to invite a Dr. Gabrielson, I believe it was, and his asso ciates who are with the American Wildlife Assoc iation .

These gentlemen are ex perts in their field - are acknowledged to be that on the continent and elsewhere, and I think the move was well taken, but since then the government has not given the public any information as to what these surveys had accomplished - whether the reports were made - and have not dis closed the contents of these reports .

Now whether it's good government policy to keep them under cover or not, I do not know, and I'm not inquisitive enough to enquire, but I do think that if these gentlemen made a report it would be worthwhile for the government to implement the recommendations since they're based on long experience which our friends across the line have had for many more years than we will have for some time yet. And I would .like to know if the Minister could tell us just what this survey did disclose and whether the government intends to take any action on the recommendations of Dr. Gabrielson and his associates. MR .

EVANS: With respect to the decrease which amounts to $15, 335 . 00 under this vote, the dropping of last year's pheasant introduction program of $10, OOO. 00 and the co-operative barren ground caribou research project of $5 , OOO. 00 will result in a net decrease in this appro priation of $12, 135. 00 or a considerable part of that $15, OOO. 00 decrease. In respect to Dr. Gabrielson' s report, he visited the province and bas made comments concerning a wide range of subjects including to some extent the administration and organization within the Department.

And those matters are receiving study - as that phrase crops up again - but I think anyone can understand that with regard to the organization matters they do require study. When the recommendations and comments that he has made have been evaluated I feel it would be right to report to the Legislature - perhaps at the spring ses sion - as to what action has been taken and what of his recommendations have been adopted into our administrative system, and the policies being followed by the Department. MR . HAWRYLUK: Mr.

Chairman, we have talked about hunting, game , ducks, and I was just wondering, Sir, whether we have taken upon ourselves to bring to the attention of the many, many people who get their licenses for hunting ducks, or big game, whether we are taking the necessary precautions of safety me asures necessa ry for these hunters.

Because if I recall I think the record of this province as far as accidents, woundings and fatal accidents is not as high as probably compared to other provinces or across the line where the officials are quite ·worried, because according to a report here in the State of California, and in the State of Wisconsin and Minnesota the number of fatalities have increased almost in some cases as high as 50 percent. That was last year - 1958. And we know that we are getting many more hunters out.

You stated that even the local residents, about 23, OOO actually receive licenses, and I know it is a source of revenue to the province; but what are we doing about the precautionary meas ures in regard .to these people that do get a license ? I think that unfortunately anyone - I mean, I am not a hunter myself but I presume that I can walk into the T. Eaton store or anywhere else. and get a hunting license without them asking me whether I know how to handle a gun.

And I'm just wondering whether we are taking the necessa ry precautions in advising the hunters who get these licenses to go out and shoot game, and the necess ary wearing apparel they should wear for a certain type of hunting sea son involved, and particularly the handling of their firearms . Because the American authorities are quite upset and worried about it, and they intend to do something about it.

And I am just wondering whether the Honourable Minister feels that we have neglected this part of our phase of the program, or whether anything is being done, because something was mentioned a year or two ago about educating the hunters during the season that they have at their disposal . Because it is a problem and I think it's something that we should forget about the dollars and cents of revenue that we get off the tourist trade coming, but I think July 15th, 1959 . Page 965

(Mr . Hawryluk, �on t'd.) •••• that - there is no question in my mind - we've had quite a number -of fatal accidents in this province and a lot of woundings because of the fact that there has been the careless use of firearms and other carelessness involved. And I just wonder whether any thing is being done about it in this province at the present time . MR . EVANS: I think the honourable member does well to emphasize this point. During his absence from the House I introduced the estimates.

There was a broad discussion to which a number of members of the House contributed, and perhaps he would find it useful to read Hansard. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister give us some idea of the progress of the Wild Turkey experiment down in the south of the province ? I understand that thatwas started about a year ago . Have you any information on it ? (Interjection). MR . EVANS: Mr . Chairm an, I have no information with me on that particular subject. I'll be glad to try and get some information on it . MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, on the subject of game birds .

One of the best game birds probably in the prairies some years ago was theFinnated Grouse. Now I understand that it is almost in the category of the Whooping Crane, and I am very pleased that my honourable friend has appointed some biologists in the Department, and I was wondering if they have undertaken any studies on this particular bird, which is in danger of total disa ppearance ? MR . EVANS: I will try to secure information in the same way and report at the same time. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chair man, the answer that the Honourable the Minister gave to the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains re the reduction in the amount of expenditure in this item, I understood the Minister to say that some of the reduction was accounted for by the dropp ing of the pheas ant program ? Was that the term ? MR . EVANS : The dropping of last year's pheasant introduction program . I did mention that the introduction of new birds was being dis continued this year pending evaluation of the ex periment. That, I think, is the statement I made when this subject was first raised, and that is the situation. MR .

CAMPBELL: Then I accept the Honourable Minister's word on that; I hadn't noticed that part of it . I understood that he said it was going to be studied this year and I hadn't got'the significance of the other part of his statement. That means then that as far as bringing them in this year it has already been dropped. MR . EVANS: No irrevocable decision was made never to do it again. MR . CAMPBELL : No, no, no I quite understand -- Mr. Chairm an, I think I'd better hold the floor to get in on my next point and that is with regard to the Fur and Game .

Would the Min ister give the Committee some information with regard to how the pelts that are taken from the registered trap lines and other areas under the control of the Department are now sold? Are they all sold by auction or are they sold locally, or

part locally and

part in other markets? MR . EVANS : This I take it would be the furs sold for the account of the game branch? The total was $3, 341 . 00 sold to - on 6 fur auction and fur-companies here . Would you care to have me read the names of the companies and the amounts ? MR . CAMPBELL : Only just three thousand? MR. EVANS: $3, 341 .0 0 under the what is termed here, "The furs sold for acc ount of the Game Branch" . Those are termed •surrendered and surplus, confiscated and experimental' MR. CAMPBELL: No, those wouldn't be .....•. MR . EVANS: Those were not the .•.••..... MR.

CAMPB ELL: No, I was merely meaning the ones from the - up in the Moose Lake Summerberry area and those from the Delta Marshes and St. Ambroise and areas similar to that; Lake Francis and others where there are registered trap lines or some controls . MR . EVANS: I think I must get that information. I'm sure it'll be available and I'll be very glad to get it . MR . CAMPB ELL: ••••••• MR . EVANS: ••••••••••• while I was called out of the House momentarily. Page 966 July 15th, 1959 .

MR. GUTTORMSON: Could the Minister tell me what the prospects are for upland game this year ? MR. EVANS: I'm sorry, I missed that question. MR. GUTTORMSON: Could the Minister tell us what the prospects are for upland game. Upland game - that's the partridge and the - what is commonly known as the prairie �hicken. Is it on the up swing o:r ... . MR. EVANS: ....... the populations and when I get the information concerning ducks on the same score, I'll try to get the partridge that you asked for as well. MR. GUTTORMSON: At the same time, could we get some information regarding the Hungarian partridge? MR.

EVANS: I'll try to get all those three species. MR. P. WAGNER (Fisher) : Mr. Chairman, I came in late, not my fault but I had to take my wife to see a doctor: I would like to ask the Minister about ducks. I understand that my hon ourable colleague, or neighboring constituency of St. George feels that their ducks may peter out. And I feel they are dangerous in his own constituency. In Kilkenney area and if he wants to find out that they are making a mess, just talk to some of his constituents around Kilkenney Hall and they will find out what the ducks can do.

And last fall I questioned the Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture if any consideration has been given to compensate the farmers due to the damage of the ducks, and the Honourable Minister answered me that if those ducks repeat them selves this year, he's going to issue me a license to shoot them. Well, I'm not a good shot and I'm just wondering whether the Honourable Minister of Natural Reso-..irces has given any consid eration of compensation or destroying these ducks, or whatever can be done. Just refresh the memory of some of the members.

I have facts from quite a number of people in Kilkenney area that they lost individually as high as 1, 500 bushels of wheat or barley per quarter on account of these ducks. So possibly they just swarm into that area or possibly the hunters don't know about it, but they carried a heavy loss. And I just once more want to bring to the attention of the House that the ducks can be a menace.

They don't actually eat the grain but once they get up on top at four o' clock in the morning or at five or six o' clock in the morning when the dew is heavy, they just tramp it right down and the pick up of the combine cannot pick it up. So, the ducks can be - well destructive animals too. MR. EVANS: The only comment I could make at this time would be that this duck depreda tion, or the duck feeding experiment is a problem not only for the area near -- north of Portage la Prairie, but there are other areas as well, and it's a part of an entire problem that must be reviewed as a whole.

So, it's interesting to me that that kind of damage is occurring in your area which is indeed far removed from the foot of the lake. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 53 . Game Branch ..... MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, on the matter of big game, the Minister was speaking yes terday about the serious danger during the season due to increasing pressure of hunters and the weapons that are used dliring the big game season. I was wondering if any consideration has been given to having a longer season.

I know the province to the east of us, the Province of On tario has a much earlier and much longer season for deer than what we have in Manitoba. I was wondering if possibly such an extension would reduce the pressure, in other words it would spread out the number of hunters that are out and possibly there would be less danger in the bush at that time due to the fact that there would be lesser numbers of them. Certain areas at the moment, when you go into them, it's almost more dangerous for the hunter than it is for the game animals. And it seems to have worked out in Ontario.

I don't know whether they are having a decrease in their deer population or not, but they seem to be carrying on with 1heir longer season. They start much earlier than we do in the fall and there appears to be no difficulty there. Has the government given consideration to a longer season in Manitoba? MR. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, each year as I understand it, and certainly last year, long and really anxious consideration was given to this problem.

It becomes a question of finding again the right point in the middle between the views of certain residents of an area, either farm ers or otherwise, who may not welcome a 10;1ger season for various reasons; either that the period of danger is lengthened or in the second place that deer to some are regarded as pets and they welcome them, and like to see them in the area and there is sentimental concern on the part of certain residents of certain areas against the hunting of the animal. Then on the other hand, July 15th, 1959 . Page 967

(Mr. Evans, cont'd. ) .... we have the views of the biologist as to what would be the right number of animals to try to take in a year, after they've examined the browse and made their census counts and so on. And the general view is that a deer herd once it's red uced, is quite capable of replenishing itself. Nature seems to take care of that. And there is -- there are almost, what you might call conflicting interests to be reconciled on each occasion that these seasons are set.

And so in answer to the question, the only thing I can say is that long and detailed consideration in many discussions are held before these seasons are set. There could well be from a purely biological point of view, justification for a longer season. I understand in Saskatchewan for ex ample, they permit a two-deer season, that is, any hunter may buy two licenses, and that area closely adjoins Manitoba. But there is resistance to such a season in the province, and it be comes the duty of those of us in the middle to try to see that the best solution for all concerned is arrived at. MR. M. E.

RIDLEY (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, or Mr. Chairman, I'm going to ask that consideration be given to an earlier deer season on the Winnipeg River this year. There was an early season there back, I believe, in 1947 and since then it has been discontinued for some reasons which I haven't been able to find out as yet. Now, the reason why I'm asking for this early season is that in the normal season of deer hunting on the Winnipeg River, the river has been frozen up so that nobody can get up there with a boat at all to hunt. And my information is that up in that area there are considerable deer.

So having it at the same time as the other season, I don't see there's any sense at all. If the river is frozen and they can't get up, we might as well discontinue it entirely. And there are quite a number of hunters who would like to take in .this recreation of going up the river in the boats, up in the north by Lamprey Falls and so forth, and I don't think it would hurt anybody else in the province. Anybody would be able to go up there. So I will ask the Minister to giv e consideration to this early season on the Winnipeg River. MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, I've only got a couple of general comments to make about the discussion re ducks and geese and so on. I don't usually come to the assistance of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, but I'm going to in this case and say categorically that he repres ents the constituency which has undoubtedly the finest duck hunting ground in Manitoba. I would say in North America. A MEMBER: Did you ever hear about Whitewater? MR. LYON: I think the Leader of the Opposition and I can probably take on the Minister of Public Works and the others when it comes to the question of where the best ducks are found.

The point I would like to make seriously, however, is this. The thing that concerns me so much in this day and age is not only the gun pressure that we have, in the field in the fall, or in the marsh, but the gun pressure, amongst which is represented groups such as the Honourable Mem ber from Burrows has mentio;:ied, inexperienced hunters. We find people going out hunting ducks especially and that's the field about which I speak, the field in which I'm interested, many of whom don't know the effective range of their shot guns.

I've seen ducks passing -- I've been walking along Portage Creek on many an occasion out in Lakeside constituency. I've walked along one side of the creek and have seen ducks pass over my head, which I wouldn't shoot at because they were out of range; and yet I've seen hunters on the other side of the creek 200 yards away fire at those ducks over my head. At the same time, I've seen a number of hunters, who through sheer luck alone, will wound a duck.

They will fire into a flock perhaps through luck they man age to hit one or two, o;:ie or two stray pellets hit the bird and you'll see the bird coming down with very gradual descent and land perhaps a half a mile away. I've seen this happen to big honkers, big Canada geese. And there's nothing actually more pitiful than to see one of these graceful big birds being pulled down out of the sky by a hunter who can't retrieve him, who has no dogs, and who has no chance or opportunity as far as that goes to put the bird out of its suffer ing once it hits the ground.

And all of this can be improved, I think, by education. l suggest to members of the Committee that one thing that could be done woud be to attract more persons to join or to participate in skeet and trap club activit ies. I know at times it can be found to be rather an expensive form of recreation. I know I can 1t claim myself to belong to any club although I do when time permits, go out to a skeet club in my own constituency and I try occasionally to get out to the odd trapp club meet to keep my eye in shape.

But I think it would have a salutary effect on a good number of potential hunters if they were to go out to a skeet club or a trap club, Page 968 July 15th, 1959 .

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd .) .... take their guns with them and find out just what the range of these guns is. Find out that if they can't knock over a clay pigeon at 80 yards, they certainly can't knock over a mallard or a canvasback at•so yards .

And I would hope that sometime in the future, and I don't necess arily suggest that this is a matter in which the government should pour money at all, but I think the government should and probably will give consideration at some time to pro moting this type of activity and encouraging potential hunters to go into this type of activity, so that they can be better hunters when they go into the field, better hunters in respect of saving their ammunition, firing only at targets that are well within range, and better hunters in the respect that they will only be firing at birds which they know they can either kill or the birds will go free.

But I think we should have fewer wounded birds, if this approach were taken and if more hunters actually knew the power or the limitations of the weapons which they take with them into the marsh or into the stubble. MR, CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, we Portage la Prairie people are so notoriously modest that we never succeed in letting the rest of the public know how good things are in our constitu encies or how good they are with oarselves, and so the Honourable the Attorney-General wouldn't mention the fact that the gentleman who trained him as a hunter was the champion trap shooter of Canada, and I believe also won the international title on one occasion.

The Honourable the At torney-General's grandfather who was the one I'm sure who trained him in hunting, won the Canadian title missing only one clay pigeon and I'm not sure whether the contest was staged at that time on 50 or 100, but he missed only one - and if my memory serves me rightly, he went on to win the international title as well. He certainly was Dominion champion. So, I can't pay any tribute to my honourable friend's prowess, but certainly he learned from a good teacher. MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, one more question.

I just wonder if the Honourable Mini ster has any idea whether the elk population in Birch Lake or Monta,,,oUe River or whatever you want to call it, is increasing or decreasing. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I haven't the information here by individual areas . Would you give me again the name of the area? MR, WAGNER: Birch Lake, or Montague River or Moose Point. I don't know what they call it on the map but there used to be 50 elk there and I understand from some of the hunters, that the herd decreased very rapidly. So I just wondered whether it is decreasing or increasing. Or you don't keep count of that area? MR.

EVANS: Well, at the moment, Mr. Chairman, I haven't the information with me . I'll see if we have it available by area. I see that for the province as a whole that with regard to elk there was no change in the elk status in the province as a whole for the year under review, but I will see if I can get information with regard to Birch River. MR. GUTTORMSON; Mr. Chairman, two or three years ago when we had that record snow fall in M.,.nitoba, the deer population in the Interlake for one place suffered extensively and was destroyed by the hundreds.

I was just wondering if the Minister has any figures to show that they're coming back in that particular area and how well they have come back ? In the Interlake area ..... the deer. MR. EVANS: ....... have no information by areas here but I will see if I can find inform- ation for the honourable member. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 53 . Game Branch - $41 0,31 5. Passed. Item 7. MR, MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman ..... . MR. CHAIRMAN: You're going back now. MR, MOLGAT: Going back. We're not quite as far as you are, Sir. We find it a little difficult to get up in between your calls at times. MR.

CHAIRMAN: We passed the various items . We're just waiting to call the resolution. MR, MOLGAT: No, I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I must disagree with you. You passed the items possibly and we haven't. MR. CHAIRMAN: I called them and the .... MR, MOLGAT: You called them, but if we don't get a change to get up. MR. CHAIRMAN: ... ... Committee says 'passe d. ' MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman said 'passe d. ' On the matter of the deer season, Mr. Chairman, I think the point brought up by the Honoarable Member for Pembina is very well taken and the mention that the Honourable Member for St.

George made about the heavy losses during July 15th, 1959 . Page 969

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd. ) . . . . the bad winter of 1956 would have b een prevented had there been an earlier season. Now, we run into that fairl y frequently in Manitoba where the very heavy snows come along with a late season and people just can't get out to shoot. And I would endorse his comm ents there, certainly. Has any decision been taken for this season on the type of game al lowed? Will it be as last year? One animal of any sex and any size? Or will it be a straight buck season, or what is the situation ? MR.

EVANS: . . . . • . . is the same as with game birds but the regulations have not yet been final iZed. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, in that regard I would like to again, not pretending to be an expert on this , but I'd like to put in a suggestion that consideration be given to going back to one buck or the population is so heavy that they want to -- per season, if they want to go be cause of an inc rease in population and lack of feed they think that more should be taken, then for goodness sake, let them have two bucks and not continue this practice of taking the does .

Because surely, surely what the Honourable Minister said a little while ago about there being sentimental considerations , I'm sure that those do apply with a lot of people. And I think we can keep up the population quite adequately by getting rid of a good many of the bucks , but I think it actually offends the hunting instinct of most people to take a doe as well.

Now, I know that the experts in game management do not agree with that point of view, but those of us who are acquaint ed with large stock production in general and know that you wouldn't get as good an inc rease in livestock population if you had anything like the numb er of males that you had of fema les. These male animals are not monogamous and they do not need to have the sa".lle numbers of each. I share that sentiment of a lot of people that should be very carefully considered before they con tinue this practice of taking does as well. MR.

MOLGAT: I share the sentim entality of the Leader of the Opposition but I disagree completely with his practical views on the subject. I think that the open season for either sex has worked out quite well. Previously we had diff iculties where hunters went out and in the ex citement of the hunt, they may have got a young deer or a doe and it was left there in the bush to rot in some cases rather than be taken home. I think that the open season for either one has worked out quite well and I would encourage the Mini ster that provided that the biologist agree with it, that this be continued. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 53. Passed. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, there are many item s left open under this where the Mini ster is to bring us further info rmation. Is it the intention to leave the resolution stand, or how .. MR. CHAIRMAN: Passed. MR. EVANS: If the Committee will agree, I will undertake at the earliest opportunity I can to bring in the info rmation befor e the close of my estimates in which event the last total could be left, if you wish that, f or answers to questions under any head. MR.

MOLGAT: Could the Minister at the same tim e bring us the information for the break down in this appropriation between the amount spent on fur which I consider to be a natural re source from the money making standpoint and that portion spent on game as considered fro m a sports standpoint ? MR. EVANS: Now let me just get straight in my mind which appropriation that is that you're referring to. MR. MOLGAT: I was specifically thinking of item (c). Fur and Game Research and Man agement.

But if he can give us a breakdown for the whole appropriation roughly what is spent insofar as sport shooting is concerned, what is spend on the fur end, that is really the infor ma tion I'm after . If it's not available now, it could be supplied at the same time as the other in formation which he has undertaken to give the Committ ee. MR. EVANS: We '11 just see whether that is divided in a way that would answer the question. No, Mr. Chairman, the info rmation I have here does not divide it that way. I'll see if it is pos sible to do so. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 7. Air Service Branch. (a); (b); (c). MR. E. R.

SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Under (b), I wonder if the Minister could tell us how many aircraft and how many bases come under this item ? Whether any aircraft have been purchased within the last 12 months . MR. EVANS: With regard to bases, headquarters at Lac du Bonnet all major repairs and Page 970 July 15th, 1959.

(Mr. Evans, cont'd. ) •... overhaul of air frames and engines done.here, also flight operations covering the entire province. The year round base at The Pas with two aircraft and a staff of seven. Additional aircraft and staff are posted here when required. Sub-base with one aircraft at Norway House during summer months. Sub-base with one aircraft at Thicket Portage during the last two summers . A year .round base near Thompson is planned when suitable location is found. With regard to aircraft, during the year under review two old type aircraft were sold and two new ones purchased.

The total fleet number 8, as under -- and the numbers, the markings on each aircraft are given but they are 8 in number. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chair man, just following this up - I wonder if the Minister could inform this Committee as to whether or not there has been any amount of consideration being given to the purchase of a helicopter. Now, I'm thinking in particular -- I assume that the air service branch of this Department works in co-ordination of the forestry branch so far as fire fighting is concerned and so on.

Now, I suppose that there's no doubt about it that it would cost the province considerable more money to purchase a helicopter, but various or several people that I've talked to are of the opinion that one helicopter is worth four or five of the ordinary bush type planes when it comes to fighting fires in comparatively inaccessible areas. Does the Minister have any comment to make on this ? MR. EVANS: The question has never been raised to me . No one has requested or recom mended to me that helicopters be employed. MR . CHAIRMAN: (c), (d) . Res olution 54. Air Service Branch - $218, 17 0. Passed. Item 8.

Lands Branch. MR. GRAY: Could the Minister tell us whether there is crown land available for settlers either the -- or even mixed farming and the number of each ? MR . EVANS: Well, certainly we could refer, Mr. Chairman, under that head to the settle ment projects. The other day we referred to the Pasquia land project and the question was the area that might still be available for settlers. Is that the question of the Honourable Member? MR . GRAY: ...•. the number of acres still available, crown lands still available for settlement. MR.

EVANS: Well, certainly within the Pasquia area the following is the situation. Ex cept for a limited number of river lots on the south bank of the Carrot River which were alienated by homesteading under the Dominion Government regime prior to 193 0, the Pasquia project area is all crown land. A portion of this area suitable for agricultural use prior to the reclamation was quite limited and more or less hazardous. The present status is as follows : Occupied area as of December 1, 1958 , private or patented land - 5, 949 acres: Indian Reserve land - 2, 097 acres; making a total of 8, 046.

Manitoba crown land under crop share lease and general per mit, there were 101 such leases and permits, a:·total of 35, 036 acres. Unoccupied acreage within the protected area as at the same date, storage reservoir areas - 12, 400, and Manitoba crown land not under crop share lease or general permit - 64, OOO acres in that project. That is an illustration of an amount of land that is available for settlers. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item (a) ; (b) ; (c). MR. CAMPBEL L: Mr.

Chairman, with regard to that Pasquia generally, I think the Mini ster was going to get some information as to an approximate figure at which that land would have to be sold in order to meE1t the terms of the agreement that was entered into with regard to its development. MR. EVANS: I rec all the discussion, Mr. Chairman, a..'ld I am sorry I neglected to make a note of it at the time and I will see if I can secure the information. Now just let me understand the question again, and that is, the price at which this land would nave to be sold per acre to do j�st what? MR.

CAMPBELL: My remembrance of the situation, and it's a long time since I've re viewed it at all, my remembrance of it is that there was an agreement between the Federal Gov ernment and ourselves, regarding the amounts of work that there were to be done and the esti mated cost of that work; and that two governments would share on a specified basis in that cost; and then that they would share, I think, approximately equally in regard to the disposition of the arable land within the area and that the -- at least in the early days, the proposal was that it should be sufficient to pay the amount of money that had been invested therein.

Now it may be that there has been some refinement of that program in the intervening years and it's quite usual July 15th, 1959 . Page 971

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd. ) ••.• for things of that kind to over-run the original estimate. I was just wondering - I know that I had the feeling at that time, that it might; if those terms were adhered to strictly, that it might run the price of the land up to a fairly large figure. But I haven't seen anything of the figures in recent years. MR. EVANS: No, there were some cost figures here but I'm sorry, I am not able to ans wer it now, but the question that I have taken down is 'that price at which the Pasquia land would have to be sold to return the investment.• MR.

CAMPBELL: And if that is still the policy to return the investment? :MR. P. WAGNER: Under appellation of pasture, is there a policy or the government has a policy of preservation of leasing pastureland? I believe the Honourable Minister will no doubt know what I am trying to say. For example, there would be a large area of pastureland anyplace in Manitoba and one firm would come along and lease the whole area. And then the settlers would find themselves in the position that they would have no place to pasture the cattle or cut the hay because one firm leased all the land.

Is there a policy that the department would lease just a portion of the pastureland or there is no stopgap or there is no division, if anybody wants to come in and lease the whole area without giving any consideration to the settlers. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, in the administration of these matters, it would be the in tention to allow leases on haylands to be appropriate for t:he number of livestock either that are being fed at that time or for planned increases in herds.

I do not think that the department would wish to allow leases to be made for haylands that were either to be left unused if people in the neighborhood wanted to use them, or for people to go into the business of selling hay from these lands. MR. SCHREYER: I have two matters to raise under this sub-item. The first one is in a sense complementary to that which has been raised by the member for Fisher.

With regard to the government leasing pastureland to people in the vicinity around that land, there has been, ,pm con vinced -- there has been up to now, some amount of, shall I say, disquietude or discon tent among the people in that area. I suppose I should in this instance, refer specifically to the area St. Peter marshland near Libau, it was in that area this province has, as I said, until now been leasing some 400 acres to one individual, and then saw fit to lease only 200 acres to the remaining 15 settlers who had made application for hay claims there.

Now, I realize that after considering the various aspects of this that the government bases their acreage on the number of livestock. Well it is true that this one individual did have about -- at least once and a half times as many livestock as the other settlers put together, but nevertheless his acreage -- claim acreage that was allotted him was certainly out of proportion. Now that is one matter.

And the other matter is connected with this, and that is; if settlers applying for a claim or a lease on pastureland, if they decide collectively - if they are quite convinced as a group that that land� the pastureland could be improved insofar as -- well, for example discing it down so that it will be smoother and the like. I cannot understand why the lands branch should be hesitant to grant these people the necessary authority to go ahead and disc it down. After all, there would be no damage done to wild life.

There would be no damage done to Crown property and they would benefit, so I would ask the Honourable Minister to take this under his consideration once more. There is a further item but I will discuss that under the - no, perhaps I'd better do that now. The third matter - municipal officials, the municipality as such, is res ponsible for the collection of taxes from those people who lease property from the Crown. That is to say the municipality is bothered by �ndividuals who lease property from the Crown to put in drainages here and there and the like.

And then when the municipality levies a small tax against them, if those individuals should decide not to pay the tax to the municipality, the municipality has no recourse. It has been suggested to me by a municipal official that I bring this to the attention of the Minister with regard to the possibility that the lands branch might, when leasing the land, charge that extra amount proportionate to what the tax would be and then forward it to the municipality. ·And I would submit that for the Minister's consideration as well. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, may I enquire from the honourable member whether the case that he is referring to of the larger acreage, beside other people who had smaller acreage, is the same as the one referred to earlier? MR. SCHREYER: Yes, it is. Actually that wasn't my main point. The main point that I Page 972 July 15th, 1959.

(Mr. Schreyer, cont d. ) .... was trying to make was with regards to their request to disc it down - to level it off. Certainly they are unhappy that their request was nei.ther denied them nor - it was neither approved nor rejected, I will put it that way -- because after making representat ions to the lands_ branch, they were informed that they could go in there and disc the land down providing they first got permission from the lands· branch which is, what they actually did in the first place. So I would like some comment from the Minister on that. MR .

EVANS: I would be glad to enquire as to the technical reason. The answer that came to me at once is that if land has been classified as suitable only for hayland and not for agriculture, then the actual operating of discs and other agricultural implements on the ground does turn it into an agricultural operation. If there is some further reason for it, I will try to ascertain it and tell the member at a later date.

My understanding is that in respect to the fees that are charged in connection with these hay leases, etc. , I believe I'm correct in saying that the fee is collected and remitted to the municipality in connection with the hay leases. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, but in the case of individuals leasing land -- Crown land from the government and using it for agricultural purposes which is done in some municipalities - not hay leases, but land leased and then used for agricultural purposes other than haying and put ting it under cultivation. MR.

EVANS: Yes, the difficulty arises there that it is an object of policy not to open up lands for agricultural purposes, broadly speaking, unless they are capable of supporting a farmer and he can have a profitable operation or a satisfactory operation on that land.

My honourable colleague from the Department of Agriculture, of course, is so much better fitted than I to speak on this subject, but many, many cases, and this was referred to him in his address concerning his own department -- many cases have occurred in the province of farmers settling on land which they should never have settled on, being unable to support themselves and unable to .achieve a satisfactory standard of living. And so in cases that appear clear to us when land appears on the iµarket at reasonable prices, it is acquired and then taken out of agriculture, in cases of that kind.

I've no doubt that is the main policy behind refusals of that kind. MR. GUTTORMSON : Mr. Chairman, earlier this year the government increased the hay permits and has subsequently rescinded the order -- the increase. Could the Minister tell me whether all the farmers who paid for hay leases have received the monies back yet? MR. EVANS: The instructions were given to send it back, or to make refunds. MR . GUTTORMSON: What happened in instances where a farmer refused to accept the hay lease because of the increase in fee and then applied later when they were reduced again? MR.

EVANS: Can the honourable member quote any cases? MR . GUTTORMSON: I am referring to some cases where a man applied for his hay per mit and then decided not to accept it because of the increase in fee; and then the government re duced the fee again and then I understand in some instances, they re-applied, and some other per son applied for that p2.rticular land and obtained it or attempted to obtain it. MR. EVANS : The honourable member asked me what would happend in those cases, then he describes what happened .. ..•• MR.

GUTTORMSON: No, I say, I understand that some applications were made, what did the government do in those instances ? Did they accept the new application or did they let the former holder of that particular land get it back? MR. EVANS: Well, if the honourable member would be good enough to give me the names of any cases that he has in mind, I'll have an examination made and see what happened. MR. GUTTORMSON: Is it the intention of the Minister to let the hay permit fees remain the same as they are now? Aey new changes contemplated? MR . EVANS: At the moment we have no new changes in prospect. MR.

GUTTORMSON: The recent changes imposed considerable hardship because in some areas the farmer was only able to obtain perhaps a few loads of hay and it wasn't a fair -- the increase certainly wasn't a fair one. And mind you, I'm pleased that the Minister reduced the fees again, and I think a lot of consideration should be given before any other increases are con sidered. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, at the risk of belabouring this item, I would like to re vert back to the point which I raised before, because I feel I didn't explain it as properly -- as clearly as I should have.

And that has to do with this matter of the people who made application July 15th, 1959. Page 973

(Mr. Schreyer, cont'd. ) ...• for hay claims -- were allowed to -- this certain amount of acreage as hay claims. · These people have power equipment -- power haying equipment, and the only reason that they wanted permisaon to level it off, was not so that they could use it for some other agricultural· purpose, but only because they wanted it to be level so that they could go in there with their power machinery and do the work, cut the hay and gather it without damaging their hay ing -- their power equipment, which is fairly expensive. Now surely there is no reason why they can't be granted this request.

It is not using this land for a purpose other than that which it was agreed upon. It has.been suggested that this might be damaging to certain wild life, I think, in particular, muskrats. And people there, people who have lived there for a long time are quite convinced that it's quite absurd. Really, I am not satisfied, nor are the people in that vicinity satisfied, as to why they were not allowed permission to go in there and. just simply level the land off as they saw fit. · MR. EVANS: If it can be arranged without offending any other policy, we'll give it full consideration. MR.

MOLGAT: On the item, Operation of Pastures, could the Minister indicate which pastures this refers to? MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, the item provides for expenses and wages of soil survey parties sent out during 1959-60, and pasture operations. I see a reference here at the Birch River Land Settlement Project to a community pasture -- that is, to say a co mmunity pasture for that local settlement project, not coming under the heading of the other community pastures, where there are expenses for a caretaker, fencing, etc. , but fees are charged there, and pre sumably recovered.

Now that may not be a complete answer to that question and if the honour able member wishes a study made of it, would he say so ? MR. MOLGAT: Well actually, Mr. Chairman, I am trying to find out what the operation of the Sleeve Lake Community pasture. I asked about this under the estimates under Agriculture, and I didn't get a reply then and I was wondering if this is covered under this item or not. MR. EVANS: Which lake? MR. MOLGAT: Sleeve Lake community pasture. • . • • . • . . . • . • • .• • • . Continued on Next Page Page 974 July 15th, 1959

MR . MOLGAT : Yes Sir, it is a pasture in Manitoba which was previously operated by the Provincial Government and I want to know whether the Federal Government has taken it over yet or not. And if they have, well fine , that answers my question, I'm satisfied. The reason I am asking the question is beca use there are other pastures in Manitoba set up by the Federal Govern ment which are not yet operated by the Federal Government. I'm wondering if there is money being spent on this Sleeve Lake, whether the province would spend money on other pastures as well? MR.

EVANS: The question as I understand it is: Has Canada taken over the Sleeve Lake Community pasture? MR . MOLGAT : That's correct, and if it hasn't then where does it appear on the estimates insofar as the province is concerned? MR . GUTTORMSON: • ••••• of any expansion being considered for this particular pasture? MR. EVANS: Any? MR . GUTTORMSON: Whether any expansion of fencing is being considered for this par ticular pasture? MR . CHAIRMAN: (

c) MR. REID: I wonder if the Minister could elaborate under this item. I see previous, back here we had an item on recreational development. Could he elaborate on this item? MR. EVANS: Which? MR . REID: Item (d) , Recreational Development. MR. EVANS: This item, Mr. Chairman covers clearing underbrush, windfall, building tables, shelters , hot water and sanitary facilities for tourist park and trailer camp grounds, opening streets and roads into recently surveyed sub-divisions. Does that answer the honour able member's question? MR . REID: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, but when I see this recreational development here and then we had a recreational development there, I was just wondering if they tied in together or not? Whether it was in that nature, you know, of development of further areas or parks or something like that •. That's what I thought it was, because it is quite a large item in this land branch, in fact the largest item. And then back here on the forestry branch it was quite a large item there also, $177, 000 .0 0. So I was just wondering how they tied in together. MR.

EVANS: I have a considerable list here of the locations in which these developments have taken place . Would that help the honourable member? MR. REID: Well , if the Minister has it now--he can give me the information later if he . hasn't. A MEMBER: ••••••••• Riding Mountains ? MR . EVANS: No, Riding Mountain is purely a Canada operation. MR . E. PREFONTAINE (Carillon): And would therefore the clubhouse on the golf course at Falcon Lake, and the beach of St. Malo? MR . EVANS: No, that isn't. That's under the forestry branch and the clubhouse itself is under Capital Supply. MR .

SCHREYER: •• •••• would we be correct in taking it then that the item (

d) here in cludes most engineering costs,

whereas the recreational development item under forestry branch would be that of actual construction? Would that be a correct deduction? MR. EVANS: No, I don't believe it would. Under the forestry branch, they have certain specified resort areas principally in the Whiteshell under their administration, for not only con struction which would be under Capital Supply mainly, but the operation as well. As I recall it, at Falcon Beach there was an item of $47 ,OOO, 00 for operation for the current season.

Then there are other locations in the Whiteshell and perhaps elsewhere which are under the adminis tration of the forestry branch. Then other duties with regard to preparing picnic spots and beaches and other kinds of that or other operations of that kind which are not settled resorts are developed under the lands branch. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, without being facetious about this wouldn't this be , shall we say, an ideal example of where there should be co-ordination? Just briefly state · what is the real reason for having it under two separate branches? MR . EVANS: Well, it is worth looking into, Mr.

Chairman. There is no duplication, I'm certain that things are co-ordinated through the Minister. July 15th, 1959 • Page 975

MR. CHAIRMAN: (d) . Passed. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, with regard to (d) , I wanted to raise agam the point that I was mentioning last evening because I think it is a fact that the two branches - forestry and lands have a uniform policy with regard to the leasing of sites for cottage owners. And the policies that I think would benefit by some review -- I was raising the question last evening -- 1 don't expect the Minister has had time to give it very much consideration. I think it is correct to state, is it not, Mr .

Chairman, that regardless of whether the authority is vested in the lands branch or the forestry that once an area is developed and sub-divided and apart altogether from the difficulty that my honourable friend the Leader of the CCF mentioned about the alloca tion of the lot, that when all those things have been accomplished, that it still is the fact that . the prospective cottage owner or builder has no title whatever to his property. He pays a cer tain amount of money for an annual, I think, rental.

My whole point in this regard is that when a lot of the people are so· anxious to get a site of that kind for a summer home, that we should be continuing to make a lot of areas available to them, but having made them available and as many as possible, it seems to me to be unrealistic to expect the people to put a valuable summer home on those places without having any guarantee of continued occupancy. Now I know that it can be said that governments always deal fairly with people in that regard.

I quite understand that they intend to also, but the position of the cottage owner who, while he has been successful in securing a lot, who is thinking on it -- I think a lot of them would hes itate with simply a year to year lease. I raised this on many occasions before. I've admitted that I don't think the policy that we had was correct with regard to it and I would think. it's time that it should be re considered. Then, take the case of the cottage owner who goes ahead and builds a good summer home on the lot that he has acquired.

If he is being moved from this province and wanted to dis pose of it, it seems to me unlikely that the prospective buyer would be interested in paying a considerable price for the home that's already gone on that property, if he in turn has no security of tenure at all. Now I know it's a question that's been under discussion for many, many years and I know that there are honest differences of opinion with regard to it.

I know the argument of the officials of the department who state that they feel that they can keep con trol of the types of buildings and other things in ·connection with the area better by having it in this form . It seems to me that all of those conditions could be incorporated into an Agreement for Sale. If they weren't lived up to , then they could be made operative just as well under that method.

Now my understanding is that the same type of regulation exists in both branches, and I suppose the Minister has not had time at least to consider the que stion of this, but I suggest it to him for consideration when he gets time . MR . EVANS: Mr . Chairman, since the Leader of the Opposition raised this question I have tried to give it some consideration and to look into it, and I'll do my best to deal with the points that he raises. There has been some request in the past for permission to buy their land; some people would prefer to do it that way.

My information is that the numbers are not large at present, nor have they been very large in the past. Nevertheless the merits of the question remain to be discus sed. I think we should say as background that the object in devel oping the Crown land resorts and the forest area resorts in Manitoba has been to make available these recreational facilities to people of modest means -- to make them available to what might be called the large numbers of people -- and I think that policy is right insofar as it's developed by the government.

Dealing with the specific points raised first; the question of "no guarantee" - my under� standing is that the leases are for 21 years subject to renewal for further periods of 21 years, giving some reasonable tenure in that way, that if one desired to sell his property if he had to move from the province or for other reasons, there is no reason that the lease could not be assigned and even a charge made for that to the sub-tenant coming in, and at the same time sell the buildings that are on the property.

Thi s ty pe of financing has been going on in a number of fields now where it used to be a difficulty in getting mortgage money to put up a cottage where the ground was leased. And in places outside Crown land as well, such as filling stations, it was always thought to be a difficulty in the past where the land is only leased to enable a mort gage to be raised or a loan �o be negotiated on leased land.

Nevertheless recent practice has been this, that with an assignment of the lease and a chattel mortgage on the building the loaning institutions are finding that security enough for the provision of loan capital in that connection. ·p age 976 July 15th, 1959 .

(Mr. Evans, Cont'd.) ••.• • I think it's true that control over buildings, specifications, types of buildings and the quality of houses to be raised on these lots could be achieved in other ways. Nevertheless it is an efficient way of maintaining control to act as landlord yourself. But let's come to some of the broader considerations here and face it, as I know the Leader of the Opposition is doing, from the point of view of the interest of the tenants themselves . I think there are arguments on the other side.

One of the important ones being this, that if the land were bought outright there would be no municipal government to provide the services that are required, such as streets, etc. , water , garbage disposal, sanitary inspection and so on; and and acting as landlord then the department can provide these facilities and make a charge for them. I suggest it would not be a very good arrangement, or an efficient one, to try to set up something resembling municipal government on lands which are occupied only perhaps two months, or somewhat longer , in a year.

The charges that would have to be made in the form of taxes , I suggest would be to finance those local municipal services , would in all probability be larger than . the re_nts that are charged for the land, for this reason, that the department with an organization in being is able to provide those services I suggest at le ast as cheaply as the smaller groups at each lake could provide for themselves.

And so it appears to me that these services which correspond to municipal services are being efficiently provided by the department at a cost I suggest that would be less when you contemplate the rental of sometimes $15.0 0 a year or $20 .0 0 a year as the case may be, for the land itself plus , in some of those items, additional charges for garbage and so forth. So from the point of view of the occupiers of these pieces of land I think there is an advantage in having a uniform set of services of this ldnd provided by the department.

Then when we come to the item of what it costs the individual: The question has been raised as to whether these leases should be put up for auction or for bids , as it were , on the bonus basis. The lots, once there are surveyed and made available , do carry a fixed rental for the time being, subject to being varied in future years -- but those who wish to acquire these lands are asked to bid on the basis of a bonus , and sometimes the bonus does run up to a substan tial amount.

I believe bonuses has gone as high as several hundred dollars or even approaching a thousand dollars, and that is a substantial amount for anyone. I don't know in the public ser vice how you can get away from the concept that you are trying to get the greatest value -- we talked about that recently -- about getting the greatest value for the public treasury out of the natural resources and other advantages that we have.

This arises in many c_ases and many difficult cases do come to be considered as to whether someone should not, because of long residence in an area or other considerations , shouldn't be given the first choice or other ad vantage in securing either a contract or something that the state has to dispose, and I don't know any way of avoiding possible charges of favoritism, or whatever it might be than to throw things on the open market under a set of uniform conditions and say, well , wh.oever is willing to pay highest should secure whatever it is they're after.

But let's face the situation which might con front someone if they were buying that land;

whereas they might have to bid up a bonus to a maximum of $1 ,000.00, I suggest that if these parcels of land were put up for sale the amounts that they might have to bid up would be very much larger indeed -- that the sale price for a Piece of land might go well above the Thousand mark, might go much higher indeed.

And. so contem plating the situation of a person of modest means trying to acquire one of these sites, I believe they face a capital investment under the lease system plus bidding a bonus , which would be smaller and substantially smaller than the amount of capital they would have to find to acquire the. piece of land under a sale.

That leaves them then with that much more resourc;::e_s to begin or to complete, the building of their cottage. :But one must acknowledge that on the other side there are attractions for the people owning their property -- perhaps the feeling of ownership or a feeling of pride in. the property, . or what e'Ver the case tnay be; those feelings should be considered, but_ in the consideration I. have been able to give it so far,. it does . seem to me that the balance of advantage from the pointof view of the cottage owner, and particularly thE;i cottage owner of small means, doe_s c;::oll!-e d<;>wn on the side of the present lease system. . . . . . . .: . ' ' . · MR .

CAMPBELL : Mr. Chairman, did the Minister say that these a:re 21-year leases? MR. EVANS: Yes Mr . Chairman, 21 years with provision for renewaJ in 21.;.year �riods. . MR . CAMPBELL: · If that'.s been the case, then I� certainly in error iii µiy understanding of it, When--hOw long have there been 2i-year lease s? Is it not correct then fo say thatthey're July 15th, 1959 . �.' . -: .Page 977

(Mr. Campbeil, Cont'd.) •••• • subject to cancellation at the end of any year? MR . EVANS: I wouldn't want to speak about the cancellation ·provisions. Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition has in mind that the rental charge may be varied -- may be reviewed at the end of fi ve-year periods ,but proVided the rental is acceptable the tenure is secure. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I've been sitting here very quietly all afte rnoon in order to fac ilitate

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-1-26
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 1st hansardpdf 26.pdf
Language	en
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