VOL. 3 ·YI-' PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, MARCH 27, 1981 N0.19 ' ' j ' -j " I } " I

~· March 27, 1981 Tape No. 704 DW - 1 The House met at 10:00 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. ~~- SPEAKER (Simms ): Order, please! I want to annlogize to hon. members: The Order Papers have not yet arrived - there was a problem wi·th the printing machine-but they should be here momentarily. ORAL QUESTIONS M~. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. M~. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. the Premier. It has to do, Sir, with a continuation of the confrontation politics that we have seen for the last couple of years in this Province. First we have the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) who is in trouble, the Min­ ister of Transportation (Mr. Brett) in trouble, and now the Mini­ ster of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), who has been continuously in trouble ever since he took over that nn~tfolio 1has followed the bad example set by the Premier and giving Newfoundland a had name. Now what does the Premier intend to do about these nonsensical, silly statements that are being made by the M~ni­ ster of Fisheries that are causing all kinds of concern and giving Newfoundland a bad name in other parts of Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I had to debate this morning between nine and ten o'clock of whether T would come to the House this morning or not, because I had vying alleg­ iances. And one of the allegiances which led me to debate whether I would come to the House was that the mail that T am receiving commending the Minister of Fisheries,! want to answer. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 1991 '• ..

t~- March 27, 1981 Tape No. 704 DW - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: And contrary to what thA ~on. member for LaPoile (Mr. Near

y) is saying,the mail that has come in from all across Canada commending the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and commending the other ministers in this government is overwhelming. It is astounding to think that.the han. mem­ ber for LaPoile is insular in his view, is so narrow in his perspective that he has not recognized that the perception that other Canadians have of Newfoundland is rising in leaps and bounds. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms ): A supplementary, the han. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Premier would care to table this correspondence'that he just referred to - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. S. NEARY: - and tell us whether the corres- pondence that he is getting refers to the minister as being a hothead , his outbursts have become predictable and that his next outburst will be the next full moon in June? SOJVI.E HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! M'R.. S . NEARY : Would the han. the Premier care to table the correspondence that he is just referred to? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr .

Speaker, one of the things that we noticed in our dealings with other governments and with the federal government was the way, the embarrassing way the y spoke about some of the individuals and some of the preparations or lack thereof that was done by the Liberal administration of Newfoundland over the years, that they were very embarrassed with some of their own colleagues and their own party. So 1992 .., ':

VI March 27, 1981 Tape No . 704 DW- 3 PRE~IER PECKFORD: when one taLks about how we are viewed outside the Province 1 I think one must ?Ut it in some kind of a historical perspective 1 because one o£ the things that we found is that people who do not eveh belong to the same political party as we do have indicated -how pleased they are with the kind of pre ­ paration we do as it relates to our policies on fisheries, as ': 1993 •: ·~I ,, '{I ..

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 705 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: it relates to our policies on just about all aspects of our economy. So we are very proud at the kind of response that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and the other people in this government are getting both in Newfoundland, across Canada, yea,across the world. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! A supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. member Mr. Speaker, I believe - if I am not incorrect, Mr. Speaker, I believe in Nova ·Scotia there is a Tory Government, so the outburst - MR.

ROBERTS: What did the minister there call our Minister of Fisheries? MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: MR. NEARY: He called him a hothead A bombastic hothead. - a bombastic hothead Now that is from a Tory, not from a Liberal, Mr. Speaker, from a Tory Minister of Fisheries in Nova Scotia MR. ROBERTS: "A fellow Tory. MR. NEARY: - who says that the Newfoundland fishery is in complete disarray. MR. THOMS: And they are brain to brain and toe to toe and bum to bum with that - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman did not answer the question when I asked him if he was going to table the correspondence. MR.

ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: must be empty. No, because he has nothing to table. Obviously his incoming mail basket 1994 .. , ) ..,

.,I March 26, 1981 Tape No. 705 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Now let me ask the han. gentleman a very serious question indeed. It has to do with the fishermen on the Southwest Coast of this Province, and other parts of Newfoundland,too,but mainly the Southwest coast,who go over fishing in Nova Scotia, they work on the draggers and the trawlers in Nova Scotia,and they go across the Gulf, especially from my own district of LaPoile, the Southwest Coast fishermen 00 over there in the Summertime and in the Fall of the year fishing, Does the bon.

Premier think that this kind of inflammatory statement made by the minister could damage the relations between the fishermen in Nova Scotia and the numerous fishermen from Newfoundland, especially the Southwest Coast,who earn their living either working on draggers or trawlers in Nova Scotia or fish off the Nova Scotian coast? Does the hon. gentleman think this will damage - they are very concerned about it. So I am asking the bon. gentleman if he intends to silence the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) as far as his outbursts are concerned, or is he going to allow this kind of confrontation to continue and risk the possibility of having the livelihoods of hundreds and thousands of Newfoundlanders who are earning their livins either in Nova Scotia, go over there every year and fish from Nova Scotia, or go over in the longliners and draggers and fish off the coast of Nova Scotia? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFOP~: Talking about people in the same "• party making comments about other people in the same party across Canada, if the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) could only hear the comments that I have beard from his colleagues about him, t· I will guarantee you right now the bon. member for LaPoile would not be so free with his comments about other people. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 1995

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 705 Nl-1 - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: I will tell you right now 1 if we had to assemble the comments that we have heard from other Liberals around this Province, as well as across Canada and federal Liberals, of what they say about the member for LaPoile (Mr . Neary), I will tell you right now it would t.ake some encyclopedia . It would take some encyclopedia to in ­ clude it. MR . MARSHALL: In his own caucus, in his own caucus. PREMIER PECKFORD: Now, Mr. Speaker, if the Liberal Party of Newfoundland wants to let the Newfoundland fishermen 1996 •. .. .. .. ) ..

"( !-larch 27,1981 Tape No. 706 AH-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: down, let them stand up and say that is what they are going to do. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) is going to stand up for the Newfoundland fishermen and he is not going to let them down. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I will trade insults that.I have heard, insults made by the hon. gentleman's own caucus and his m~nisters about the hon. gentleman. I will put mine up against his anytime. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

NEARY: Now the Premier did not have to· name any, but I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the Premier's believability - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - the Premier's believability and his credibility are shot in his own caucus. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.NEARY: But, Mr.Speaker - and obviously the hon. gentleman has no intention of tabling the correspondence because there is no correspondence. But I am asking the hon. gentleman again to - MR. THOMS: Misleading the House again.

MR.NEARY: We now have a situation in Labrador South, the other day one of the ministers, I think it was the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) came in with a newspaper clipping about somebody down in Labrador South asking for Mr. Rompkey's resignation, and now this morning I heard where they are also demanding the resignation of the Minister of Transportation (Mr.Brett). In all the communities public meetings were held, and only four people voted against not asking the Minister of 1997 .. , .., .. , .. ,

.. ~. March 27,1981 Tape No. 706 AH-2 MR. NEARY: Transportation (Mr. Brett) for his resignation. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, the ministers are completely out of control, the Premier has no control over thern,and I want ask him if this confrontation policy is going to continue and ,if so, :1ow much darnaqe is going to be done to Newfoundland in the proces~ ?

Or qoes he have any intention at all of trying to get aJ.ong with the other provinces, trying to get aiong with the oil companies, trying to get along with the federal government, trying to get along with business and industry who want t-.n r.nme into this Province, or is he ao:i ncr t:o continue his ·type, his style of confrontat:iOll politics? _.R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker 1 the Liberal party of Newfoundland and the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) and evervboo.v else can try to construe our positions as being confrontationous if they 1 ike, they can try all they 1 ike, but the people of Newfoundland know what this party and what this government stands for. Unfortunately they do not know what the Liberal party of Newfoundland stands for. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PPF.MTPR PFrKF'ORD: . - ·-- - They are the wishy-washy, mealy- mouthed - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER PECKFORD: - give-away Liberal party of the past 1 and they want to do the same thing on the offshore now as they did on the Upper Churchill fifteen or twenty years ago, give it away.And we are not going to stand here in this hon. House o! anywhere in Newfoundland and allow the Liberal party to do in 1981 what they did in 1966. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.SPEAKER: Order, please! The hen. member for Eagle River. 1998 ... •, .. , .. , -, ·~,,

March 27,1981 Tape No. 706 AH-3 MR.HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker,my question if for the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) and I would like to ask the Minister of Education 'I . ,j 1999 ,s;·

March 27, 1981 Tape 707 PK - 1 MR. HISCOCK: (Ms. Verge) why is it that the Student Aid division, the appeals division of her department has been understaffed? One person left that ~epartment the 29th. of December, another one left the 14th. of January; and there were 150 appeals of student loans to that branch of the minister's department requesting that their student loans be overturned.

And I gather still there are students - and now we are almost at the end of the academic term at the University, and many students have gone throu~:, •·:r:ea.t haroshins because the minister h.as not kept her Student Aid division up to par. Can the minister inform this House why vas it that particularly with the start of a new term and a 150 backlog of applications, and the great hardship to the students involved, why is it that we still do not have this cleared up? MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Simms): The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, the programme of student assistance in our Province is one of the best, most generous in the country. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MS. VERGE: It is certainly the most generous in Atlantic Canada. AN HON. MEMBER: That has nothing to do with it. MS. VERGE: The borrowing requirement before students become eligible for grants is lower in Newfoundland and Labrador than in the Haritime Provinces. That is number one. Number two, Mr. Speaker, the Department of Education h.as made great improvements in making 2000 ., ' 'I .,

March 27, 1981 Tape 707 PK - 2 MS. VERGE: the service accessible to students. The office is located on the campus of Memorial University, which was requested by the vast majority of students receiving benefits from the student assistance programme. The staff have worked hard to service students,to be cordial and efficient to students, and in the ongoing efforts to continue the improvements, there have been meetings with student groups to listen to students particular requests.

And I am confident that overall the Education Department is giving a good,sound 1quality service to students, and that the content of the programme is among the most generous in the country. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Simm s): member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . A supplementary, the hon. Mr. Speaker, there is no question of whether it is generous or not, but it is by no means generous compared to what the Liberal administration did years ago with regards to student aid.

But with regard to the question ,I still want to know why is it that division was not kept up to par? And 150 students, and there are still other students that are having to go thr'ough great hardships~ why is it that these were not kept up to par?

And nowwith the third term beginning, let us say, within another month or so, and then with Summer school in September, will the minister ensure this House that she will have a mechanism in place to make sure that the quota for appeals offices will be kept up to a full complement and that students in the future will not have to go through any hardship because of the lack of organization within the minister's department? 2001 .., ': .- .. ,

March 27, 1981 Tape 707 PK - 3 MR . SPEAKER (Mr . Simms) : The hon. Minister of Education . MS . VERGE : Mr. Speaker, the number of staff positions,including appeals officers in the Student Aid Divisio n ha s been increased over the years to keep pace with demand from students for assistance. 2002 '1 .. , . ... ' ··r ·r ., .. I

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 708 SD - 1 MS. VERGE: There has been no change recently in that quota. HOWever 1 a couple of people who were associated with the division resigned to take jobs elsewhere in the Public Service and it takes time to fill those vacancies. That is now being looked after and I am confident that a good level of service will be continued. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms): of Belle Isle. Hear, hear. The hon. member for the Strait MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, my question, I think, ought to be directed to the Minister of Public Works (Mr. H.

Young) if I can take him away from the newspaper for a moment. The Grenfell College in Corner Brook is 1 I gather, about to lose its water supply,which is surynlied by the city of Corner Brook 1:)ecause the bills sent by the city for the supply of the water have not been paio.. Now as I understand it , the building in which the college is located-or the buildings , if there is more than one~ are owned by the Province and are made availabie to the university on some terms for use.

Can the Minister of Public Works -and this is why I direct the question to hiJ'T'l because I assume he is the landlord- ::an he tell us arrangements are going to be made to ensure that the water supply is not cut off? Of course, if it is cut off 1the college, as I understand it, must close immediately, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR . H. YOUNG: ~. Speaker, the department has not had a.n·r communication whatsoever from the university or the city council of Corner Brook.

We do not .pay any maintenance whatsoever such as snowclearing and so forth, and we indicated to the city of Corner Brook and also Memorial Universit y last year that they would be responsible for paying the water bill this year. 2003 'r'l

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 708 SD - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Supplementary, the han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: I will have to go up the scale then to the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge). I vmnder if she could perhaps tell us- last year,as I recall it, her department did find the funds that were made available; we had the same crisis last year and the funds were made available, I believe,from her departmer.t and presumably through the Public Works Department the bill was paid.

Could she tell us- I assume she is aware of the situation 1 unlike her colleague -could she tell us whether steps are going to be taken? I understand we only have four days left before Mayor Murphy pulls the plug. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I am quite aware of the situation as are the !1inister of Public Works (Mr. Young) and the Minister of Municipal Affairs (j-Irs. Newhook) .

Last year the city of Corner Broqk threatened the university with cut-off of water for failure to pay water rates, At that time government reviewed its relationship with Memorial University regarding the Grenfell College in Corner Brook.

It appeared from the documentation that at the time government, the Department of Public Works, turned over responsibility for operating that building to Memorial University,including normal maintenance of the building, there had not been a clear-cut assignment of responsibility for making payments of service fees or ') property taxes to the city of Corner Brook and the university had not included anything for water rates for the city of Corner Brook in its budget which it requested of government.

Therefore, it was decided by government, because of this lack of clear-cut direction,because the university had no~ ... provided for any payment to the city 2004 ... .., .. , 'I

March 27, 1981 MS. VERGE: grant-in-aid, Public Works Tape No. 708 SD - 3 in its request for operating that for last year only the Department of 2005 "• 'l 'a

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 709 EL - 1 MS. VERGE: would clear ~p the arrears and a negotiated amount was paid to the city of Corner Brook 1to the city's satisfaction 1taking care of the arrears to that point. At the time that decision was taken, it was also decided by government that from now on the university would be directed that it '1\'0uld have to assume liability for payment of service fees to the city of Corner Brook. That was communicated by me on behalf of government to the President of the university.

There was no quarrel from the university with' that transfer of liability • f!OWever 1 the university's quarrel is with . the city of Corner Brook in inter­ preting the City of Corner Brook Act which exempts the university, or other such institutions,from payment of property taxes to the city of Corner Brook. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MS.

VERGE: The real argument between the univer- sity and the city of Corner Brook . hinges upon whether the bill being sent to the university for the regional college amounts to a property tax or a service fee 1and it is simply a legal matter to be ironed out now between the university and the city of Corner Brook. Regrettably it has . reached again crisis pro­ portic·'"l.S 1 but it is simply a matter between the University and the city of Corner Brook.

There has been no reque .st to me from the university for any intervention from government in assisting to resolve the problem and as far as the university is concerned, as far as government is concerned,i.t is a legal dispute to be. resolved between the university and the city of Corner Brook. MR. ROBERTS: ~ supplementary,, Mr. S~eaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplementary, th .e hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. 2006 ....

March 27, 1981 Tape NO. 709 EL - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister and I understand that what she is saying is

a) the university is responsible insofar as the government are concerned,but,

b) there is a legal dispute as to whether the bill is legally due or not. Andthis is not the place to solve the legal thing. Both the minister and my .self would be happy to do it in a different way and for a different consideration. But, Mr. Speaker, my question would be this,then: We are four days away from - and the President of the Council(W.Marhsall'),of course, would be happy equally to do it for a consideration, I am sure, as we all would. MR. THOMS: She is alright on the conflict of interest, she is alright. MR. ROBERTS: We are four'days away,as I understand it, Mr.

Speaker, I should not have said from pulling the plug, from the plug being put in and the water being cut off,and I wonder if the minister could tell us what steps she proposes to take to ensure that the immovable force,which is represented by the city of Corner Brook 1 running up against the unbendable force,which is the Memorial University of Newfoundland,do not in their clash with each other on this legal principle, lead to a result where the water is cut off, the college thereby will have to close and 700 or 800 or 1,000 young men an~ women, however many are en­ rolled there at this time, will be denied the chance.

No ~" , I know we have government by crisis in this Province toda y - ·' 2007 .. , .. , .. ,

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 710 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: and that is the Premier's style, and the minister endorses the Premier and I accept that- but we are only four days away,so I would say to the minister . the crisis is about to come on us. The 1st. of April is next Wednesday, so can she tell us please what steps she proposes to take? Is she going to have the matter referred to court? Is she going to tell the university to pay the money to the court or pay it into a trust fund?

What is she going to do to ensure that we do not wake up Wednesday morning and find that the work forces in the city of Corner Brook are up at the Grenfell College cutting off the water supply? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, this administration, which I am very honoured to be a part of - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MS. VERGE: - I think is less crisis oriented, has put befo~e it more vision, long term planning than any administration in the history of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MS.

VERGE: As far as the problem relating to the university and the city of Corner Brook, I and government as a whole remain open to representations from either of the agencies in assisting them to come together and negotiate, a settlement or resolve their legal dispute. I am confident that the legal advisors for both parties will avert a crisis and - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! MS. VERGE: - will see that the studies and ,, operations of the college for the benefit of the students continue without interruption. MR. ROBERTS: A final supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. 2008 ., ...

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 710 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: The minister is obviously adopting then a supine position with respect to this,I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, instead of the activist role and I would say to her that I think she is wrong and I would ask her if she would again reconsider, instead of sitting back and waiting for the crisis to happen 1will she - PREMIER PECKFORD: Question: MR. ROBERTS: Yes, I thank the Premier for the question. If he would keep his mouth closed and his ears open for once in his life he will hear the question. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Ho! Ho! Ho! Ho!

The question to the reclining,incumbent minister- MR. THOMS: He should sew your mouth up MR. ROBERTS: - who is simply waiting for the crisis to happen by her own admission as opposed to trying to solve it, . is she prepared between now and Tuesday or Wednesday to do any- thing, or is she going to sit back and wait to be seduced in­ stead of going out and doing some seducing on her own? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The han. the Minister of Education . MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I will choose to _ignore the sexist remarks of the member .opposite. SOME HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. 2009 ': .. , . .. ,.

~"",· March 27, 19811 Tape NO. 711 EL - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! A I=Oint of order, the han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: I would be the very first to apol- ogize if the minister draws a sexist inference and to her I would simply quote the motto of the oldest order of chi~, the Order of the ~~ SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: ·~ soit qui mal y pense~ 'EVil be to her who evil thinks'. Hear, hear! With respect to the Point of Order, there is no point of order. It is a difference of opinion be­ tween two hon. members. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, judging from the smirks of those sitting on both sides of the House, I do not think I was alone in drawing my inferences. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MS. VERGE: But coming back to th .e problem at hand between Memorial University and the city of Corner Brook, I did not wait until a few days ago or I am not planning to wait unil next week to act on this. I and government acted on it over a year ago- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MS.

VERGE: - when we met with the senior officials and regents of the university,when I corresponded with President Mbrgan of the university, when I and the Minister of Municipal Affairs (H. Newhook) of the day met with the Corner Brook City Council. And as far as long-term planning goes 1I think that is one illustration of the approach of this administration ) and when it comes to our dealings with the university in particular 2010 .

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 711 EL - 2 MS. VERGE: I think our recent contacts have entailed more evidence of long-term planning and foresight than ever before. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member forTorngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Tourism. Could the minister advise if any new provincial parks will be under construction this year? MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Tourism (N.Windsor) is not responsible for parks. The Minister of Re- creation, Culture and Youth (R. Dawe) is. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.

WARREN: of Recreation AN HON . MEMBER: MR. WARREN: parks - MR. SPEAKER: MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: creation and Youth. MR. DAWE: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. DINN: SOME HON . MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: fisheries. MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh! r will ask . my question to the Minister (Inaudible) - if there are any new Provincial Order, please! - under construction this year? The hon. Minister of Culture, Re- Mr. Speaker - Tourism. Yn n do not even know your departments. Oh. oh! Order, please! Order, please! I thought people (inaudible) then Order, please!

If members would like to have con- versations, I suggest they take them outside the House. A question 2011 .,

March 27 , BSl Tape NO . 711 EL - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : has been a.sked. I presume the Minister would like to respond. The hon. the Minister. Mh. DAWE: Mr. Spea.ker, over the past number of years there have been a great many developments in Provincial parks around the Province. There has been an ongoing programme of expanding existing parks,of assisting private enterprise and getting into private parks and campgrounds,and this programme is ongoing.

There are a number of sites that have been identified and suqqested for new park construction, but it is always de­ pendent UPOn Budget limitations from year to year. The plans are in for additional parks as well as additional expansions to parks and as soon as the Budget is 2012 ') ,. . . ., •. , ., ., ., I

March 27,1981 Tape No. 712 AH-1 MR. DAWE: presented to this House,hon. members on both sides will be aware of what new park construction development will be going ahead this year. MR.SPEAKER (Simms): for Torngat Mountains. MR.WARREN: A supplementary. The hon.member Mr. Speaker,I would like to ask the minister another question. Is it true that there is a large or a substantial amount of money alloted for a provincial park for Labrador? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Culture Recreation and Youth. MR.DAWE: Mr.

Speaker,I think that question was answered when I answered previously in indicating that new park developments and expansions will be known to everyone once the Budget is brought down. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. Mary's- The Capes. MR.HANCOCK: Thank you,Mr. Speaker. I also have a question for the Minister of Culture,Recreation and Youth (Mr. Dawe) - I think that is as far as it goes­ pertaining to this $2.5 million,Mr.

Speaker 1 that the city council is looking for to erect a memorial commemorating Sir Humphrey Gilbert's arrival - I do not know ~hat the heck they are planning putting down there for $2.5 million­ but has the provincial government been requested by city council for funding for this mernorial 1 Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER' MR. DAWE: MR. HANCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: for St. Mary's - The Capes. The hon. minister. No 1 Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. A supplementary. The hon. member 2013 .. , .. , ~· .. , .,

ds.""l March 27, '1981 MR. HANCOCK: Tape No. 712 AH-2 This is not a hypothetical question, Mr. Speaker,because it is in the paper that they are coming to the provincial government. Could the minister indicate whether or not they are wanting to lend this city council or Mr. Paul Johnson money for this memorial if they are approached? MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. DAWE: Would you entertain the idea? The hon. minister. Mr.Speaker, it is obvious that if council intends to make a request to government we will certainly sit down and consider it and make a decision at that time. MR.FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. The hom.member for Windsor-Buchans. Mr. Speaker,my question is to the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Dawe) as well. So the minister may be aware, Newfoundland Hydro - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: - over the past couple of years have done thirt2en or fourteen environmental studies on the Upper Cat Arm and looking at a

summary of those s.tudies one would deduce that the development of the Cat !rm River is going· to improve the environment of the area -let alone do any damage,it is going to improve it. Has the minister seen those studies and has the minister's department had any chance up till now to peruse the studies done by Hydro, tl1e environmental studies on Cat Arm? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DAWE: The hon. Minister of Environment. Mr. Speaker 1the Newfoundland Hydro submitted to my department an environmental impact study a number of weeks ago.

That study was reviewed by an environmental assessment committee, chaired by my deoartment,made up of a number of officials representing provincial departments and 2014 "• .. ,

March 27,1981 MR. DAWE: Tape No. 712 AH-3 also federal environment services and so on . The interim report from the assessment committee was presented to me some time ago andthe committee is having ongoing discussions with Newfoundland Hydro as it relates to that particular study on Cat Arm. MR.FLIGBT: Mr. Speaker ,a supplementary. MR .SPEAKER (Simms); A supplementary. The hon.member for Windsor -Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT: Would the minister tell the House whether or not he intends to have the Opper Cat A.rm development subject to the new Environmental Assessment Act, the new act that ;..•e passed in this House here last year? Will the Cat Arrr hydro development be subject to that act? 2015 ·!J 'I 'It ,. ~ •.

.. i March 27, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. DAWE: Tape No. 713 SD - l The hon. Minister of Environment. Mr. Speaker, Hydro, as it relates to the Upper Salmon development and also Cat Arm; has been very responsible in treating the spirit of the Environmental Assessment Act. They have continued on even though the initial projects started before the Assessment Act was brought in. They have gone ahead and done exactly as the Assessment Act reads and have met every requirement and are continuing to meet every requirement.

It will be the decision of my department whether in fact it will be necessary to go past the statement which they are preparing -which they had prepared and which is being assessed now. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. We have time for one final The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. Mr. Speaker, the minister did not answer my question. Now he indicated that his department is considering whether or not - ·MR. BARRY: MR. FLIGHT: it gets approval - approval. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

FLIGHT: (Inaudible) question. - the Upper Salmon project before the Cat Arm approval, before it environmental Oh, oh. Order, please! I want to know if that project, the development of the Cat Arm River,will have to get approval under the new Environmental Assessment Act? Now, Mr. Speaker, is that project going to be e.xempt from that Act or is it going to have to meet the regulations laid down under the Act? MR. MOORES: Yes or no. MR. FLIGHT: Yes or no. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has 2016 .. , .,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 713 SD - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): expired. If hon. members want to give leave to the minister to answer the question - SOME HON. MEMBERS : By leave. MR. SPEAKER: By leave. MR. DAWE: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister does not wish to answer. The time for Oral Questions has expired. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINGS: Mr. Speaker, pursuant to

Section 28 of the Financial Administration Act, I table the Lieut- enant-Governor is warrents relating to the Department of Justice. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speake_r. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. member ' for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am in Your Honour's hands on this particular matter, I really do not know how to handle this - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - but I believe the Joyernment - the ministers and the Premier.- should be censured, ~rr. Speaker, for not answering the questions on the Order Paper. Another week has gone by and - MR.

FLIGHT: Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: - we still do not have any answers, Mr. Speaker. 2017 '> ., .. , .., ..,

March 27, 1981 Tape No . 713 so - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : Order, please! There is no provision in the Standing Orders for censureship or anything of that like for ministers not answering que.stions. The provision s are there for everybody to see, it is not a point of order . PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. Barbe. ~.R . BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, I wish to present a petition from several hundred residents of my district , several hundred ," 'l:o the hon . the Hou.se of Assembly,the parliament assembled." 2018 ,. ~ ~I ., ,, "!• .•. I

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 714 DW - l MR. T.

BENNETT: ''The petition of the undersigned, the residents of Daniel's Harbour, Bellburns and River of Ponds, ri0 ~~Tehy support the actions of our councils and strongly pro­ test any and all further extensions to the Bateau Barrem and Portland Creek access roa& into existing timberlands, that we insist that these areas be used for domestic cutting only, that they be completely closed to commercial sawmill operators and any and all other large scale cutting operators, that the residents want better management of forestry resources and be protected aqainst devastation of the forests for local residents.

And your petitioner~ as in duty bound will ever pray." Mr. Speaker, in support of that I would like to remind the hon. House of Assemblv that the Northern Peninsula is but a very narrow strait of land geo·­ graphically,and even more narrow is the timberstand that grows on that area of land. For many hundreds of years, Mr. Speaker, people of that area have used timber for domestic as well as commercial use. Today that timberland is being deva­ stated primarily because of mismanagement of forestry in that area. Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind this hon.

House of Assembly that not only for the day should we live and should we struggle, just for todaz but ~e should also remember those who come behind us~ ~hose who are young people today , in years to come will need forest land. And I am wonder- ing where they might get it on the Northern Peninsula unless there is some management and local consideration given to the people-in that area. People of that area, Mr. Speaker, settled in that area more than 100 years ago and derived their livelihood from the fishery and from the timber. Without timber, Mr.

Speaker, they could not have been very successful in developing that area in the fishery or otherwise. 2019 ., ., .. , .. ,

March 27, 1981 Ta-pe No. 714 OW - 2 MR . T. BENNETT: I remember when we referred to a three mile limit, when timber and land ~e set aside for fishermen. That seems to be gone by the wayside today. ~o longer are fishermen's rights or,indeed, Mr. Speaker, the local residents 1 rights respected . There seems to be an Qnslaught to destroy. There is such emphasis placed on destruction by the spruce bud,•orm: Mr. Speaker, believe me ,the spruce budworm has got nothing to compare with the devastation of the forests in some parts of this Province and especially in that area.

The soil is being torn, the trees are being slaughtered, they are not being utilized. The information comes to me from people who are very well- informed and people who reside in that area wish to pre serve it ,have it available to tha~ for their domestic use today and preserve it for future generatjnn~. We used to use 1"hat we cal led , Mr. Speaker, selective cutting but that seems to have died . You have to go in today with a big tractor and plow every­ thing under,including a seed that would sprin g up and nourish and nurture future growth .

All of this seems to be neglected and abused. ~~ - Speaker , it is not only the spruce budworm that has killed the timber; people ~ho harvest in the area apparentl y are doing much more of a devastating job than any insect ever could . Mr. Speaker, I am hearing the Premier refer to giveawavs Mr . Speaker, we may just as well gi ve it away if we cannot 2020 ., ·. .•p ., .. ') .. .

~. March 27, 1981 Tape 715 PK - 1 MR. BENNETT: utilize it and manage it. And I question the wisdom of some of the management that I have experienced in this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, I wish- MR. WARREN: Including the minister. MR. BENNETT: -to place this petition on the table of this hon. House of Asserr~ly and have it presented to the department to which it relates. Thank you. MR. FLIGHT: You just said something about the minister, the minister is a good man. MR. WARREN: MR. POWER: MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Simms): Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Yes. Mr. Speaker. The hon. Minister of Forest Mr.

Speaker, I would like to support the petition .. It is not every day, Mr. Speaker, that a minister of the governrn~nt can get up and support a petition from an Opposition district, which in effect is supporting what the government is doing. Mr. Speaker, we have made great gains in the last twelve months, and in the last couple of years, and particularly since 1974 and the Lands Management Taxation Act to bring under control of the government the management of our forest directly. As you know, Mr.

Speaker, from the area of the Province in which you live, and the area of the Province in which the han. member who just spoke lives, much of that land is controlled, consumed and mis­ managed by one of the basic facts of life in Newfoundland, that there were 99 year -leases given for large amounts of land. Only last year we got - 2021 ., . )

r, March 27, 1981 Tape 715 PK - 2 MR. BENNETT: What land? MR. POWER: - only last year we got back about a million acres of land from the Bowater Corporation on the Great Northern Peninsula because of the Forest Management Taxation Act that we introduced in this House in 1974 to bring the forest under direct management of this government, Mr. Speaker. Also, Mr.

Speaker, the new initiatives that we have tak~~ as a government under the silvicultuxal programmes as it relates to our forest protection programme, and particularly as it relates to our ten year negotiations with Abitibi-Price where we have 2.5 million acres of land taken back from 40, SO, 99 year lease type arrangements where there are no conditions involved. MR. FLIGHT: Where? Where? MR. POWER: All over Central Newfoundland. I will be glad to get a map, as I did one day before -as a matter of fact, I tabled the map in the House.

If the member would like to get from the clerk a copy of that map or my department can get another copy for him. Mr. Speaker, we have got back from Abitibi-Price 2.5 million acres . of land that are now conditional upon management for the next twenty years. We are presently negotiating with Bowaters for 4.5 million acres of leased land that they have under the same type of arrangements.

And I just want to take this opportunity to support the petition because good forest management is a basic necessity for Newfoundland in relationship to the problems we have had with the budworrn and the other problems that we have had and the mismanagement over the years. And I just thank the member for presenting the petition to the House and certainly to pledge our support for good forest management. 2022 'I

March 27, 1981 Tape 715 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Simms): The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may say a few words in support of the petition which my friend for the district of St. Barbe (Mr. Bennett) just presented, and which was supported by the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power), the gentleman for Ferryland district. The situation outlined by my friend for St.

Barbe so very well in his remarks in support of the petition, of course, obtains in my own .constituency, which is contiguous to his, and in Baie Verte-White Bay, which is contiguous on the ' South and the East side of his constituency, and in numbers of other areas throughout this Province .

And without getting into any debate, and this is not the place for debate, without in any way taking away from the very real achievements which the minister and his officials - and I must confess, I think, that he will be the first to agree that most of the credit ought to go to his officials, but he has had the wisdom to listen to them and to be guided by them, and to act upon their advice - without in any way taking away - MR. POWER: It is an excellent department. MR. ROBERTS: It is an excellent department. MR. POWER: They are excellent officials. MR.

ROBERTS: They are excellent 1 officials, I agree with the minister completely. If all of his colleagues were as well advised as he is, the government would be very much better than it is. But without in any way taking away from the very real achievements, and they have 'been real achievements; without getting into denigrating the past, because the minister is so wise today, I would say simply that men like Sir Robert Bond seventy or eighty 2023 .,

March 27, 1981 Tape 715 PK - 4 MR. ROBERTS: years ago when those leases were given to Grand Falls, and Sir Richard Squires, fifty years ago when they were given to Corner Brook 1were equally wise. You know, it is easy to be wise in hindsight. Without taking away from that,the point I want to make, Sir, is the thrust to the policy which the minister is administering,! suggest 1is a marco policy and it ought to be as well a micro policy. He is only dealing, or his officials are only dealing with the large questions. And the kind of problem that my friend for St. Barbe (Mr.

Bennett) was pointing out, if I understand correctly, and it is certainly the type of problem- which my constituents must contend day by day, is in the very mundane, seemingly minor- minor on a Province-wide scale but not minor to the people concerned­ the day to day administration of Crown lands. And we are running into very rea~ problems. And I am not talking here about land titles or that side of it, there are problems there. The minister is being humane and being very sensible about those. But where we are running into it, if I understand what my friend for St.

Barbe said, is wood for heating purposes essentially. And more and more people are turning to this for domestic consumption. They are being forced to by economic reasons. They are being encouraged to by policies of this administration and the administration at Ottawa. MR . BENNETT: There are still a few stages left. 2024 .. ,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 716 MR. ROBERTS: And my friend from St. Barbe (Mr. Bennett) quite rightly points out there are still a few stages left; domestic consumption, stages, firewood, fences, what have you, building homes even. There are still many men left in the Northern Peninsula who follow NM - 1 the old Newfoundland tradition of cutting their own logs, having them sawn on the halves, and then getting at least the framing and the cladding for their house from that and it means people get homes at far less costin dollars.

Just as much cost in effort, in real work, but far less cost in dollars than they would otherwise do if they were living, for example,in St. John's or in Grand Falls or in Corner Brook. So I simply say to the minister in supporting the petition and in hearing his support of it 1 that the point of the petition is not the overall thrust of the province-wide forestry policy, where really there is very little difference of opinion these days. There may be some still among the professional foresters as to whether we should clear cut or selective cut.

And I have heard that argued 100 times in the last20 years and I have never heard a firm resolution cf it yet, nor 1I suggest 1h~s the minister. But it is on the day to day administration, and the rules that are being implemented, the rules that are being laid down, the policies-that are being laid down, Mr. Speaker, are not consistent, are not meeting theneeds of a man living in Port au Choix or a man living in Eddies Cove, or a man living in Flowers Cove, or any one of the fifty or sixty communities there are along the coast between Bonne Bay and Cook's Harbour, and other areas of the Province ai well.

But I speak only of the St. Barbe area because that is where the petition now comes from. So I simply say to the minister in the few moments I have left that I feel his support. I hope he will take the petition, discuss it with his officials, 2025 .. ,

7'j March 27, 1981 ~ape No. 716 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: not on the grounds of policy but on the grounds of implementation of the policy. The point of the petition is a real one. It is a real need and I believe it deserves the kind of response which I hope the minister will give and which I expect he will based on wqat I have seen of him in action the last year or so. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Further petitions? ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that I do now leavethe Chair for the House to resolve itself into Committee of Supply • Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? MR.

ROBERTS: Committee of Supply or Committee of the Whole'? MR. SPEAKER: Committee of Supply. MR. ROBERTS: I just wanted to straighten that out. MR. SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion, those in favour "Aye", contrary "Nay", carried. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Order, please! On Interim Supply, shall the resolution carry? The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we start~d yesterday to show the House why we feel that the minister should not have this Interim Supply and I think we made a number of valid points as to why we should have a budget instead of the Interim Supply Bill. MR.

THOMS: MR. NEARY: an election. The government should - Or an election. J Or an election. Yesterday I suggested Why we should have one or the other, Mr. Speaker, because the government obviously are hiding behind this supply bill, this Interim Supply Bill. They are trying to cover up for their inaction, their inactivity, and they are asking for 2026

March 28, 1981 Tape No. 716 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: three months supply,which is too much in our opinion, Mr. Speaker. And what are they asking for rh is three months Interim Suppl y Bill for, Mr. Chairman? What are they asking fo~? We have no details. The minister just gets up and makes a blanket statement, "Oh 1 just for housekeeping." One-third of the budget for housekeeping purposes more or less he tells us. Well, Mr. Chairman, we have to have a little more information than that. I am sure my hon. colleague from Eagle River (Mr.

Hiscock) would like to have some more information on what is going to happen in his district this year. Will that DREE agreement be signed or will it not be signed? And, Mr. Chairman, we can continue to play the mug'sgame by one side accusing the other of delaying the DREE agreement. The government argue that it is being held up in Ottawa. We checked with Ottawa and Ottawa says it is being held up by the Province. Ottawa tells us that they had to fight to persuade the Province to accept ninety per cent of the cost of the road to Red Bay, the Straits Road. M+.

Rompkey had to fight tooth and nail to try to get the Province to tell Ottawa 2027 ., '

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 717 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: where their priorities lie in regard to this agreement,and now Ottawa is ready to sign, ready to sign. As far as they are con­ cerned, they could put the ink on the agreement tomorrow but they cannot get anybody in this Province to talk to. There is no dialogue, no liaison,no communications with the Government of Canada. Now what kind of nonsense is that? And as a result, Mr.

Chairman, the people not only in the Straits of Labrador, down on the Labrador side of the Straits are suffering but the people all over this Province are suffering because thes ~govern­ ment will not sit down, man-fashion with common sense and neg­ otiate with the Government of Canada. They will not negotiate on anything and as a result, Mr. Chairman, this Province is losing literallymillionspiled upon millions of dollars. Ottawa is having a problen; to try to spend their money in Newfoundland, having a problem. And then, Mr.

Chairman, when you look at the silly programmes and the silly policies and the silly nonsense of the Provincial Government in the way they spend provincial money, it would make you wonder. The people of this Provine~ are asking a lot of questions these days about the Premier of this Province, about his behaviour. They are very concerned. The Premier's behaviour is making Newfoundlanders and Labradorians very nervous. Evenhis own ministers and his own backbenchers are starting to talk out loud.

Only recently I had a backbencher on the government side of the House tell me that he would not run again unless the Premier changed his att­ itude, unless the Premier started doing something, unless the Premier stopped living in the past, unless the Premier - MR. CARTER: Name him. MR. NEARY: Yes, I could name him. 2026 .,

........ March 27, 1981 Tape NO. 717 EL - 2 MR. HISCOCK: St. John's North (J.Carter). MR. NEARY: Unless the Premier did something before the next election is called, he said, 'I will not run.' And I could not use the language, Mr. Chairman, it is unparl­ iamentary, the language that he used to describe the Premier. And this is becomming common. You get aboard the elevator, you hear minister muttering and grumbling about the Premier's behaviour. They even go as far as to question his sanity. I would not go that far, I would not go that far, Mr.

Chairman, but I have heard ministers question and say the man has gone nuts, he is bonkers, gone off his head. He is a Lone Ranger, he will not consult with anybody, he will not listen to anybody, he will not allow his minister to talk to Ottawa, he will not allow his officials to talk to Ottawa. He wants to do everything himself and in the process~no man can be an island unto himself, .Mr. Chainnan, he has to have a team around him. Obviously he does not trust his ministers 7 he does not trust his backbenchers. So, Mr.Speaker, we question a lot of the politics.

And, you know, would Your Honour wonder why we question some of ~he things that this government does? Take, for instance, this little thing I have in my hand. It is not very important, Mr. Chairman. It is not a very big issue, it is not a major issue but it cost money, it cost taxpayers'money. Mount Scio House, we do not know how much it is costing the taxpayers. ada that gives its Premier a house, colored photographs of the Premier. The only Province in Can­ rent free. We have the Now, we. came across this, Mr. Cha~rman. Listen to this, and here you have the Newfoundland Coat of Arms on it - MR.

CARTER: Are you going to table it? 2029 .., .. , .. .

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 717 EL - 3 MR. NEARY: Yes, I am going to table it. The Premier's signatureis at the bottom. As I say, it may not be a very big thing, but it would buy a couple of pairs of eye- glasses and a few pairs of crutches for crippled children in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: It would buy a wheelchair that the Minister of Social Services (T.Hickey) refuses to buy for crippled people in t~is Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, what is the hon. gen- tleman talking about? AN HON. MEMBER: Oh., oh! MR. HICKEY: You do not like that, do you? MR.

NEARY: No, I do not like it. The hon. gentleman, I was going to say, was the biggest crook in the Moores' administration, but I will not say that. Tell us about your land down in Outer Cove. MR. HARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: No, I withdraw it, Mr. Chairman. I withdraw it. Tell us about your land down in Outer Cove and your transactions with Mr. Moores? MR. HICKEY: I would like to tell the hon. gen- tleman • Do you want to know about my land in Outer Cove that I bought, ;ny family's land? Or does he want to tell me about his building lot on Portugal Cove Road? AN HON.

MEMBER: Two lots. ') MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): Order, please! MR. HICKEY: Two building lots on Portugal Cove Road .. Does he want to tell me about that? 2030 ''I ., .,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 718 DW - 1 SO.IJI...E HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. T. HICKEY: Does he want to tell me, Mr. Chairman, how he paid for it or does he want me to tell him how I paid for mine? By cheque. I have had enough of this gentleman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! .1-'1~. CHAIRMAN (Butt): Order, please! MR. T .. HICKEY: There is no halo, ~he hon. gentleman only thinks he wears a halo. He has no halo. MR. CHAIRMAN: There has been no point of order raised. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S . NF.ARY: Mr.

Chairman, let me go with the des- cription of this thing that I had in my hand that resembles some kind of a certificate titled, 'Membershi~ and then the Newfoundland Coat of Arms and then,'Screechers Club, Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. This is to certify consumed on this day the of Some of Newfoundland's Golden'- r.ol~en what? Elixir. of has in the year AN HON. MEMBER: .'4R. S. NEARY: 'Elixir. The bearer of the Certificate of Merit is hereby enrolled in the ~raternity of Screechers. (Sioned)A. Brian Peckford, Premier'.

I would be ashamed, it is a disgrace, I would be ashamed to put my name as Premier of this Province to a document like that, Mr. Speaker, as funny as it may seem to the hon. gentleman. It is costing the taxpayers of this Province money to get that printed, that rubbish, that garbage ?rinted 1and it could buy a few pair of eyeglasses or a wheel- ' chair or a few pairs of crutches for crippled children in this Province. And they are going out in the thousands, Mr. Chair­ man. Another disgrace!

Oh, is it any wonder that people are questioning the credibility of the Premier of this Province when he comes up with this sort of foolish nonsense?, This is their policy, this is what they have been doing. They have been 2031 ') . ,. .. , ... ,

. \' March 27, 1981 Tape No. 718 OW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: designing flags and medals and certificates for the amount of Screech you can drink. How much screech - encouraging boozing in this ProvinceJ That is what they are spending their money on, Mr. Chairman. And the han. member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) now cannot wait to spring to his feet. No doubt he will go back into the Smallwood years and he will drag up a bit of dirt and he will be his usual nasty self 1 but he will not answer the charges or the accusations that are made. Can you imagine, Mr. Chairman.

I do not blame Your Honour for looking at ~2trather askance, that document that I am holding in my hand that cost - how much did it cost? I want to find out from the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) how much that cost~ The Newfoundland Coat of Arms on it- it should be taken off. And the Premier should be ashamed of himself for putting his name on th~t document. The Premier fiddles while Newfoundland burns. That is all they can think about, little,silly gimmicks. Anything, the Premier will put his name on anything, have his picture taken at any time.

He must set aside a number of hours a day to have his picture taken. And I would not mind it so bad but would somebody please tell him to look at the delegations or to look at whoever he is having his picture taken with and not always look into the c~mera. Does he have no regard, no feeling at all for those who are standing with him?or is he i ust there, he can think of nobody only himself and he does not care about he is having his picture taken with, as long as he gets it taken. I believe the CBC think that the government is a division of the CBC, the coverage they give him. I would like to monitor, Mr.

Chairman, I would like for somebody to monitor the number of times that the Premier appears on the CBC and compare it with the number of times that Liberals appear on the CBC. 2032 ,,,

March 27, 1981 MR . CHAI.RMAN (Butt) : MR. S. NEARY: Chairman . I.1R. CHAIR"1AN : Tape No . 718 OW - 3 Order, please! The hon. member's time has expired . t\'ell , I will be back again, Mr . The hon. the ?resident of the Council. MR . lfL MARSHALL: we are in the process, Mr . Chairman , of consideri ·ng Interim Sup;>ly arid we are in the process of considering almost $450 million of Interim Supply for a three mor. ... il period of time. What Interim Supply is, Interim Supply, of course,is the authority for government to spend money at the beginning of the f i scal year which starts on ~pril lst. next .

If April lst . comes, Mr. Chairman, and this Interim Supply is not passed then a t that particular period of time the government has not the power to spend money. Mr. Chairman, we are also governed by rules in this House with respect to the debate on Inte rim Supply . There is a certain, 2033 ... p . .. . .. ··!· .. , ': .. ,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 719 SD - 1 MR. W. MARSHALL: as in the order of all business, there is a certain period of time allotted for the consideration of supply itself, the main estimates. And in interim supply, the period of time we are now talking will be deducted from the total debate. N~w, Mr. Chairman, I just noted I am not going back into the Smallwood administration as the hon. member invited me to; people in Newfoundland have gone back into that and I think that speaks for itself. But, Mr. Speaker, look, I prefer to look to the future.

We have here a bill that is before this Committee of the House to consider the expenditure of almost $450 million. And I have heard the chief spokesman for the Opposition getting up this morning and talking and it is the same vein as yesterday. Now what did he talk about? Instead of talking about how the people's money is spent, he thought it was of interest to talk abut alleged mutterings and grurnblings of ministers and backbenchers. He talked about Mount Scio House, the same only cold plate that he puts out from time to time himself.

He talked about coloured photographs of the Premier, he talked about private transactions about land apparently in the Logy Bay area. He talked about a tourist certificate which is given for the encouragement of tourists. It does not happen to meet his particular aesthetics and all the rest of it, he does not think it is a priority, but there again, this is what he .talked about, it really does not cost all that much. Then h~ got into greater heights, Mr. Chairrna~ he - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! MR.

MARSHALL: - zoomed into greater heights; then he started, somehow or other, on the way in which the Premier looks into a camera when the Premier's picture is taken, has for some reasons or other some relevancy in the 2034 .) . ''I .. ,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 719 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: deep recesses of his mind as to how the $45Q millions is going to be spent. Then he went on to talk about CBC coverage, Mr, Chairman, when you want to talk . about Nero's fiddling when Rome burns, I think we should look at the Opposition. Here we have, Mr. Chairman, $450 million, it is the duty of the Opposition to examine into the expenditure, A governrnent 1 particularly in its spending programme is effective anyway but can be made more effective by questions. as. to why monies are being spent and what the pur-pose is. And this is the type 1 !.fr.

Chairman, of qual;i t_:y MR. THOMS: We ask the questions but we do not get the answers. MR. MARSHALL: get in this. - of the debate, Mr. Chairman, we The hon. gentleman says,'~e ask questions , we do not get answers .1 MR. TULK: True. MR. MARSHALL: Now traditionally what this is1 this is· interim supply as the hon. member now knows, he has been in the House two years. The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) has indicated to the House that the Budget is going to be brought into this House by mid-April. This is certainly not the first time that interim supply has been brought it, it has been brought in every year.

I think that the Minister of Finance.• as·. all Ministers of Finance of this government from the beginning of time, be.ars a record for the early period of '7 time when a budget is brought in every year. Last year I think it was within a few days of the opening of the fiscal year, this year it is going to be within a matter of days of the opening of the fiscal year. That is the way this. adminis­ tration is going. The hon. gentlemen there opposite know that what they are voting on now, they are going to get full and complete. 2035 ., .., .. ,

I March 27, 1981 Tape No. 719 SD - 3 MR. MARSHALL: details in accordance with usual parliamentary practice within a very short period of time. The estimates will be put into committees, some of them will be discussed in the House,and they can discuss them in minute detail then. So what are the hon. gentlemen there opposite doing? I suggest that they are not doing a service to the parliamentary system by carrying on with non sequiturs such as we have heard today, debates on various things such as that-we have heard it over and over again in this House about the DREE agreements.

The hon. gentleman, I heard him yesterday when he spoke, said there was no DREE agreement. So we said, as the Premier indicated, there is a proposal where the Province has put the proposal up in Ottawa, it has the monies available and it is waiting again. And unfortunately because of the punitive action which the federal government is choosinq to take against this Province because it asserts its basic rights and because of the weakness of the representation on the government side in Ottawa from this Province and not signed. The hon. gentleman full well. knows what the intentions are. It is kindred, Mr.

Chairman­ and I will flick back for a little while to his illustrious sojourn in the Smallwood administration~ it is kindred to that contract at the time we all remember that was on the desk waiting to be signed. In that particular case it was signed by the government of the day, it was signed apparently by the hon. member but he should know better than anyone it takes two to make a contract and it takes two willing parties to make a contract. MR. NEARY: You finally got it right after all these years. MR. MARSHALL: So, Mr. Chairman,I am not going to belabour, Mr.

Chairman, take the time of this Committee, 2036 ''I 'I ''I

:1arcy 27, 1981 Tape No . 719 so - 4 MR. MARSHALL: I am ju st going to urge the Opposition to be a little bit more relevant not for the member for LaPoi1e (Mr . Neary) to get up on these, - as far as I am concerned, nonsen sical non sequiturs that he gets up with from time to time in which. he tal<.es pa~tj.cular delight in. He ge ts an occasion al 2037 ·~ ·'!! .! ., I ··! .•

March 27,1981 Tape No. 720 AH-1 MR. MARSHALL: delight in. He gets an occasional laugh and all the rest of it 1 but in the meantime there is $450 million needed in this Province for the next three months. I suggest our time woulc' . be better served in this House if we debated and realized the enormity of the amounts of money that it takes to run this Province.

Four hundred and fifty million dollars 1Mr.Chairman 1 is an awful lot of money for a period of three months, And that $450 million 1 when you come down and you realize there is $450 mi+lion being spent in three months but at the same time there is seemingly an increase in the enunciation from people of their needs and the demands for needs. It is by no means meeting · the needs of these people.

We are spending more and it is even more difficult to meet the needs.So that, I would suggest,Mr.Chairma~,is one of the items that we should turn our attention to in this House and we should turn our attention to in this Province in a very, very sobering way. And when the hen. gentlemen are turning their attention to that,they can realize that needs can be met with revenue and only with revenue.

They could realize, Mr.Chairman,that the revenue can be derived and the revenue of this Province can be increased dramatically by the adoption of the policies of this government and the realization of the legitimate damands of the people of this Province in the areas of offshore jurisdiction and in the area of the transmission of hydro rights. There are just two. So Mr.

Chairman if the hon. gentlemen really wanted to bend their minds to ,this bill, they would realize first of all that it probably would be advantageous not to talk about the details of it because obviously they are not given until such time as the Budget is brought in,but that will be brought in soon and then this debate can take place at that period of time. But if they want 2038 ''I .. , ·-··

March 27,1981 MR. MARSHALL: Tape No. 720 AH-2 to focus in on anything 1 focus in on the large amount of money, focus in,Mr. Chairman,on the need for more money, focus in on the means of getting mor~ money through realization of our legitimate rights, and focus in on their own positions and whether at last they are going to stand up as Newfoundlanders and not as supporters of a Liberal party up in Ottawa which is only serving)as they well know 1 as all federal parties do, the interests of the seventy-five seats in the province of Quebec and the eightyseats in the province of Ontario.

But we cannot do much, we have not got much 1 Mr. Chairman, we only have seven seats and unfortunately there is continual - there is not just silence from the other side, there is acquiescence from the other side. They rejoice at the suggestion,for instance,in offshore rights that we can keep our monies until we become a have Province. In other words,we can be in the Canadian Confederation as long as we pay our own welfare~ this is what they are saying, but we cannot look any higher. That is the hiqhts and that is the depths 1 Mr.

Chairmanpf the hon. gentlemen there opposite and I would think they would serve the people of Newfoundland much better if they got a little bit more relevant in this debate rather than getting the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) up with his - MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: - usual asinine remarks of not any rel.evance whatsoever and got down to brass tacks as to what affects the people of this Province. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR.THOMS: Hear, hear! The hon. member for Grand Bank. Mr. Chairman,it is at times like this that I wish the member for St. John's North I ~tr.

Carter) were in the House because the extent of the 2039 .. , ) .. , .. ,

or March 27,1981 Tape No . 720 AH -3 MR. THOMS: vocabulary of the member for St . Joh n's No rth (Mr . Carter) is limited to one word. He sits back in his seat and all you can hear from him is 'rubbish, rubbish'. Since my election in this Hou se some two years ago that is all I have ever heard £rom the member from St. John's North (Mr .Carter ), the word 'rubbi~h'. I think this House should somehow or other make it mandatory that when the President of the Council gets up on his feet that th~ member from St.

John's North (Mr .C arter) be in the House and that would be his one word,' rubbish', 'rubb ish' because that is basically what we get from the President of the Council. Now the President of the Council asked us to get up and to debate and have something to say on this particular resolution that we are debating at the present time . 204 0 '• .,, ·'! ·: ., .. I

March 27, 1981 Tape NO. 721 EL - 1 MR. THOMS: And what do we have? It is some- thing that I fail to fathom. We have the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) some in with an Interim Supply Bill, asking that we approve the expenditure of a half billion dollars, a half a billion dollars. $500 million dollars. Now, that is a lot of money. You know something, I tell my friend from Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (H. Andrews), I really do not know how much that is. I really do not know and I doubt, Mr. Chairman~f the people of Newfoundland realize how much $500 million dollars is, a half billion dollars.

The Minister of Transportation (C. Brett) has difficulty conceiving how much $1,887.66. He cannot remember that from one day to the next.And the Minister of Finance comes in and asks us to debate. What theminister of Finance would like to see, of course, is the Interim Supply Bill come into the House, introduced to the House, the resol­ ution go through and that is it. But the President of the Coun­ cil (W. Marshall) is trying to talk about the relevancy of the member for LaPoile (S. Neary}. I think just about everything the member for LaPoile had to say was relevant. MR. NEARY: The taxpayers 1money. MR.

THOMS: We are being asked to approve this resolution, a half billion dollars. But we find that it is very difficult, it is very difficult to approve a half billion dollars, $500 million dollars to an administration that we believe, that we consider, that we know is incompetent. Imagine giving $500 million dollars, a half billion dollars to incompetents to spend. That is a lot of money. The President of the Council talks about relevancy. I think it is very relevant. I think this piece of rubbish, to quote the member for St.

John's North (J.Carter), this piece of garbage that the member for LaPoile had tabled in 2041 ., ·. .. ,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 721 EL - 2 MR. THOMS: the House this morning which was paid for out of the taxpayers money in this Province, I think that is very relevant. I have been asking the Minister of Finance this in this House time and time again. We see the"report of the Newfoundland Liquor Commission for 1980, They netted $42 million dollars, netted $42 million dollars. How they net that $42 million? They netted it by selling Screech and other kinds of liquor. $42 million dollars, Mr. Chairman, that is after everything else is paid. That is after the big salaries and the increases in all these big salaries.

There is nobody working in Newfoundland Liquor Commission making what the ones that are on strike at the Trades School are making. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: They got more than their 8 per cent. MR. THOMS: So they net $42 million dollars after all this. Now, the Minister of Finance will get on his feet and he w~ll again talk about, oh,this $42 million dollars goes into the general revenue of the Province, goes into the coffers of thE Province. And then we have educational programmes spread throughout different departments and so on. Maybe the hon. member for Burgee - Bay d' Espoir (B.

Andrews ) 1 maybe lie does not care about the alcohol problems in this Province. Maybe he does not care. MR. ANDREWS : MR. THOMS: Were you down there? Yes, I was there, very successfully in 197S,and I will be there very successfully when the Premier of this Province has the intestinal fortitude to call an election. I will he there then. You are gone, you are finished, you have had it 1this is your last chance. MR. liTEARY: Right on. 2042 ''! .., 'I

March 27, 1981 Tape No . 721 EL - 3 MR. THOMS: You are gone . MR. ANDREWS: trnaudible) last time . loi.R . THOMS: No~, the hon. member for Burgeo - Say d'Espoir (B .Andrews) may not be interested in th e alcoholic problem in this Province . You may not be interested - MR. ANDREWS: (I naudible) established in Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. MR . THOMS : How many? MR . ANDREWS : Be does not kno1". MR. THOMS: How many drinking - no, I do not know. M..~ . ANDREWS: There are seven. MR.~: No, I do not know. MR. ANDREWS: You do not know. MR. THOMS: No, I do not know how many drinking establishments there are.

I am not like the hon. member, you know . I am not an expert on drinking establishment s. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: I am not an expert on that. MR . CHAIRMAN {Butt ): Order, please! M..lt. THOMS : But Mr. Chairman, what I am talking about here and what I find 2043 ) .. .. .,, ,, .. I •;t

March 27, 1981 Tape 722 PK - l MR. THOMS: disgraceful is that a member can sit on the other side of the House and question something like this. Here we have the Newfoundland Liquor Corportation extracting, netting $42 million a year, and Rot one single solitary cent is earmarked for education, not one cent. Now maybe the hon. member does not believe that there should be any money spent on alcohol education in this Province.

If he does not believe that,let him have the audacity and the intestinal fortitude -I would like to say guts, but it is unparliamentary -to get up on the floor of this House, to get up and say that he does not believe it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ANDREWS: How many drinking establishments .9-:t:."' cl.Qwn t~.ere? MR. THOMS: You will have your chance. You get ten minutes, and ten minutes, and ten minutes just like everybody else. MR. NEARY: every time he goes there. MR. THOMS: how many - MR. NEARY: you go down there? MR. ANDREWS: the problem. MR. NEARY: you go down there or what? MR.

THOMS: How does he know (inaudible) How does he know? I do not see the relevance in Do you visit them every time (Inaudible) concerned about Do you visit them every time Mr. Speaker, I am concerned because there seems to be a lack of concern. 2044 .. , .., ' 'l .,

March 27, 1981 Tape 722 PK - 2 AN HON . MEMBER: (IrunXlible) the Ku Klux Klan. MR. THOM S: Well ,th ere is no doubt about it, th e fishermen in the district of Grand Bank cannot say,'Here comes the Minister of Fisheries' (Mr. Morgan). They cannot say that. MR. MORGAN: I was down and you did not know about it. loll'.. THOMS: When was the last time you were in the district of Grand Bank? MR. MORGAN: Do not think I am taking you along with me in your district. MR . THOMS : MR. MORGAN : MR. THOMS: MR. MORGAN : MR. THOMS: And do you want to know something? Heave it out of yo u, my bov.

There is not way I would go with you. (Inaudible) will not have you. Now, Mr. Chairman, if I can get back to what I was talking about, and this is a serious concern. And that is - MR. MORGAN: I am going to Stephenvil~e tomorroW. MR . THOMS: Look;your two .minutes are not up to come up to blow. Your two minutes are not here yet . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh , oh! MR. THOMS: Mr. Chairman, there is money - the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) will get up and he will say - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. CHAIEMAN: Order, please! MR. THOMS: Mr. Chai.l::II\3n, do no worry about them, leave then alone.

Leave them alone. 2045 ·'• '{! ''I 'I .... , ,,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 722 PK - 3 MR. THOMS: But he will get up and he will say that this money goes in the general coffers, there is an educational programme that is filtered out through the other - I do not accept that. I do not accept that. There is not enough money being spent on alcohol education in this Province. I want to see, I would prefer to see a cer- tain percentage, whether it is $2 million or $3 million or $5 million or $10 million, if, Mr.

Chairman, it will cut down on the number of drunk drivers in this Province 1 on the > number of deaths on the highway, and we have to take that whole $42 million and bring that about, then that is what should happen to that $42 million. MR. HISCOCK: Child abuse, battered wives. MR.

THOMS: That is what should happen to it, it should not be taken and run through into the general revenue, if it means that a certain proportion of it is not going to be taken and spent on educating the people of this Province, particularly the teenagers, the problems associated with drinking, and particularly the problems that are assoc- iated with drinking and driving. MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. THOMS: Mr. Chairman, you know, it is dis- graceful. It really is disgraceful. And what is even more dispicable, Mr.

Chairman, is the fact that it >-is condoned by people like the member for Burgeo-Bay d 1Espoir (~r.Andrews}. MR. ANDREWS: (Inaudible} . MR. THOMS: No, the lack of an educational programme - MR. ANDREWS : I am for (inaudible). '1 MR. THOMS: the lack of an educational programme is condoned by those on the other side. And that is despicable. And still you come in here with a little piece of paper with a half billion dollars, $500 million - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 2046 .. , .. ,

'";. Z.larch. 27, 1981 Tape No . 722 PK - 4 MR . THOMS~ - $500 million and ask us to give you a bl~~et approval without having anything to say about it . Well, Mr. Chairman, there are stil l a few hours . left in this debate, and there are a good many of us on this side of the House who have a lot to say. And it will be relevant. It will be re levant just like ev.erything that my friend for LaPoile(Mr. Neary) said was relevant . But still the Pre si dent of the Cou .ncil (Mr .M <>~sha~

l) gets up and tries to wash it all over by talking about the irrevel- ancy of what my friend for LaPoile said. That is a lot of rubbish . He talked about incompeten ce, and that is relevant . Would you give $500 million to somebody who is incompetent? Nould you give a half billion dollars to somebody '"ho is in - competent? Of course you would not. And the people of Newfoundlan d do not want us to give $500 million to an in - competent administration. AN HON . MEMBER : Your time is up. MR . CHAIR!-1AN (Mr. Butt) : Order, please! The hon. member's time has expired . MR. THOMS : Thank you, Mr . Chairman.

I wi ll have something further to say . MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon . member for Eagle River . 2047 'l' ··'l .. ., ·~ ·''

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 723 NM - 1 MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Chairman, I. am rather concerned that we are asking for $.5 billion, not only asking for $.5 billion but the President of the Privy Council (Mr. Marshall) ended up saying that when we get on with it it is rhetoric, and we do not ask questions, we do not go into detail. Well, I would like to ask the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), seeing he is asking for $450 million for possibly three months, if he will table upon the table of this House what each department is going to be spending with this money? How much is the fiscal salary?

How much it is for new programmes with the Department of Rural Development? What iR ~oing to be going on in my district for the next two months? ~he Department of Transportation, what is going to be going on in my district? With the Department of Social Service, what is going to be going on down in not only my district, the other one? MR. THOMS: We cannot get through. MR. HISCOCK: It is not good enough for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), to ask for $450 million in interim supply and not to give us any details, and then when we ask the question ,do we get any answers?

No, we get the President of the Privy Council getting up and going -back to the Smallwood era. Surely they are not go.ing to forget that there was another administration in between. And surely they are not going to forget that the majority of the members of the Cabinet were also the members of the Cabinet of the former administration. Surely the y are not, Mr. Chairman, But, Mr.

Chairman,one point that I 1 am really concerned with, I am concerned a~out hydro rates here in this Province, the hydro rates, specifically those who have to pay hydro rates with diesel electricity, I talk about Ramea, I talk about other places on the South Coast- Petites, I believe, Grey River; I talk about Eagle River, the district of 2048 .. , . ,,,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 723 NM - 2 MR. HISCOCK: Eagle River, all of it. I talk about the district of Torngat Mountains, all of it. I talk about Mud Lake-and Mud Lake as far as I am concerned is a crime. Eight miles away from a power line and they still have diesel electricity! Eight miles in Labrador with the hydro power coming from the Upper Churchill and here we still have a place like Mud Lake getting diesel electricity. It is ridiculous. But my concern, Mr.

Speaker, is that the hydro rates here in this Province, the more energy you consume if you are hooked up to hydro power by way of water, if it is generated that way, the more you consume the less you have to pay, which is fair. But if you consume electricity that is generated by diesel, the more electricity you consume,the more you have to pay. So we have places that are in rural and remote areas, on the Coast of Labrador, where you have to burn more electricity because the seasons are longer and colder.

And here we have a provincial government, and again with regard to the hydro potential of Labrador, here we have the highest rate not in Newfoundland and Labrador, not in the Atlantic Provinces, but all of Canada, some of the highest rates of electricity. And the Minister of Finance is asking for Interim Supply. I would ask the Minister of Finance and this qovernment, Newfoundland Hydro is now going to go before the Public Utilities Board and ask for another rate increase. I do not believe the public really realizes that. ThePublic UtilitiesBoard is a creation of the government.

All the appointees are political appointees. I am not saying that they are not qualified people 'in their own rights. Hydro is a creation of government and here you have one group, Hydro, going to another government 2049 '1 .. ' .. ,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 723 NM - 3 MR. HISCOCK: agency and asking for a rate increase. Are they going to be scrucinized? Are chey going to be asked to prove it, r.tr. Chaizman? Surely not. They are going to get it because of the bond rates. And Mr. Chairman, we have pointed out that if we get the Lower Churchill, and the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) will confirm this, if we get the Lower Churchill on the go ,what is going to happen if we need to have financing bac .ked by Ot:tawa?

So it does not matter if Hydro gets its rate increase this year, or next year, particularly when they say they do not need it until next year. That is what I think is a crime that is being perpetrated on the citizens of this Province. They do not need it this year 1 they will not need it until next year. But they are going to ask :or it this year so that next year - they will not need it until '8 3;bu t then they will ask for another one in '82 · 205 0 ) ., .,, 'It ';J .. ,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 724 DW - 1 MR. HISCOCK: So , Mr. Chairman, <•ri th regard to our hydro rates and electricity,! would ask the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) when he gets up, does this department and does this government have any plans to change the rates thatare charged for diesel electricity? Do they have any programme that is going to come into effect that not only if you are consuming hydro electricity by way of water - and I am glad the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) is here.

And as I was saying about Mud Lake, eight miles away from the hydro line in Labra- dor,why is it that we do not have Mud Lake connected? I can understand the Labrador coast 1which I will not really accept in the future. MR. BARRY: (Inaudible). MR. E. HISCOCK: Then all I say, Mr.Chairman, it has been long and coming and I congratulate him.

But the other point I am asking is that with regard to diesel electricity, why is it that on the coast of Labrador-and I would ask the Minister of Mines and Energy to have an inquiry into it with regard to the price, number one - tha~ the more energy you consume down there the price goes up? One person in my district in Charlottetown, had to pay $900 and something for one month. One month, $900 and something! One month the rate is one lot, the next month it is another lot,;nd there is no consistency.

People in the coastal communities are asking the questions: how come a house, a three bedroom house and three familieswith x number of other appliances have to pay $30 a month consistently and another family the same size and the same utensils et cetera, et cetera,is paying up to $902 There are a lot of questions that have to be addressed with regard to hydro down in Labrador,and not only down in Labrador but in Ramea. And this 500 killowatts is the basic level. And where they have the rates increased,anything over sixty, anything over and 2051 'I ., .. ,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 724 DW - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: above that was a certain rate,but now since the last increase of NewFoq~rl~nd Hydro or the power dis­ tribution,you do not get the ~ixtv over son anyrnore,it goe~ up automatically another 500. So the rates 1 if you consume elec­ tricity by way of diesel,the more it goes up the more you have to pay,

whereas if you are getting it from the oil generator here on the Island, if you getting it from Hydro,the more energy you consume the cheaper it goes. So, Mr. Chairman,I am concerned that if the minister ann if the President of the Privy Council (Mr. Marshall)are concerned about indeoth studies and indepth ques- tions of the Opposition askincr about this $450 million, I will ask the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) to table in this House what they are actually qoing to be doing in the next two months with this $450nillion. What are they going to be doing with it? AN HON. MEMBER: Paving the roads in ~~llP.vue.

MR. E. HISCOCK: I would say, Mr. Chairman,it is not good enough to turn around and the government to ask for a blank cheque and then not turn around and explain ,,,r,~t they are going to be doing with it. I think the onus is upon the government to prove to these people, the government of· the people of this Province to say, 'This is what we are going to do with $450 million'. Because we only have a certain amount of time to ask the questions. But with regard to the way the government is being treated 1 I woulCI a"'~ ho"' much money are we actually paying for these pictures of Rostotski?

How much are we going to paying for the medals? How much are we also paying for these things? They are very, very small items. They are very small items, they are not significant in many ways. But, Mr.Chairman, I would say it is $100,000. 2052 •• ! .. , ·. . . :• .. , .,

March 27, 1981 Tape No . 724 ON - 3 MR. CHAIR"''AN (Butt ): Order, plea se! The hon . member's time has expired. MR. E. HISCOCK : Thank you, Mr . Chairman, and I hope the Minister of Finance (Dr . Collins) will table those answe rs. MR . CHAIRMAN: The ho n. Mini ste r of Mines and Energy . MR. L. BARRY : ~x . Ch airman, ! am just going to take a few minutes to deal with th e items rais ed concerning hydro power by the hon . member opposite . We announced last year a continuing programme of interties , inter -connections to tie in the isolated diesel areas with the hydro grid, the existing hydro grid . And, Mr . Chairman, there has been every year, 2053 ... .. ., .. ·'' .., .,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 725 EL - 1 MR. BARRY: last year and we anticipate again this year,there will be continuing amounts, considerable amounts pri vided to see that where it is feasible to do so, where they pay for themselves,that these lines are installed as quickly as possible. ·But it is set out over a five year programme. Now, Mud Lake is going to be closer to this end of the five year programme than to the other end but I am not, Mr. Chairman,I am not going to tie ourselves down with respect to specific items until we have the Budget, the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) has brought in his Budget 'and we have the fullamounts and then we have the programmes established, the total amount we can spend for the year and the priorities identified. But I can say that Mud Lake is high up on the list of priorities. And the minister from Labrador has already said,it is going to be done. Now, if he says it is going to be done, I do not have any choice. I just do not have any choice because he will make my life miserable until it is done. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: He will be on my back continously day after day, night after night until it is done.

So, I may as well do it as soon as possible and get him off my back. And, Mr. Chairman, if we had a few more members from Labrador like this member here and like the member for Labrador West (P. Walsh) , the problems of Labrador would be a lot closer to sol uti on than they are right now, un­ fortunately, and we have only half a team in harness up there. That is the problem in Labrador, there is only half a team in harness, Mr. Chairman, and we need another election as quickly as possible to get a full team in the traces in Labrador.

We need another election so we can get a full team in harness in Labrador, and we will have four Tory members or four and a half, 2054 . .. , .. , ":1 ·, .. ,

March 27, 1981 MR. BARRY: MR. ROBERTS: Naskaupi is elected. MR. BARRY: Tape NO. 725 EL - 2 is it? (Inaudible) when a new member for Hear, hear! We will oet four and a half members up there next time around, Mr. Chairman. Now, let us understand what the pro­ blem is with the diesel areas. We. have the picture being painted that the people in the diesel Rreas are being discriminated against.

On the contrary, Mr.Chairman, the consumers in the diesel areas are given a preference over power consumers everywhere else in the Province in that there will be in excess of $20 million dollars out of the general taxpayers'revenue going into the diesel areas of this Province. So if there is any discrimination it is a geo­ graphical discrimination. It is unfortunate that the good Lord put the coast of Labrador in the isolated area relative to the sources of hydro power that it is, Mr. Chairman.

But given the fact that we want to see,insofar as it is financially possible, equal­ ity of opportunity throughout the Province, recognition of the value of our rural heritage throughout the Province we, this governrnent 1 will this year be giving in the area of $20 million subsidy. Consumers in the rest of the Province pay the cost of service. They pay what it costs to serve them. The consumer in the rural diesel area does not pay the cost of service. Now, Mr. Chairrnan,that is not to say that we do not recognize that there may still be hardships in var- ious comrnunities.But it is a very enlightened policy, Mr.

Chair­ man, that sees the same rate, the same rate payable on the diesel systems as on the hydro grid. For up to 500 kilowatt hours per month, 2055 ., . ,i ·-· ' 1

March 27, 1981 Tape no. 725 EL - 3 MR. BARRY: the same rate is payable, the same amount. If consumers in the diesel areas and consumers here in St. John's or Corner Brook or Botwood or wherever use 2056 .. , "• ':

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 726 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: 500 killowatt hours,they are paying the same amount. So up to that level, Mr. Chairman, the systems are equalized. Beyond that, Mr. Chairman, there is a - exactly as the member has said, the more that is used the more that they pay. And that is for a very clear, exact reason. It is not by accident. It is not by mistake. It is not by error 1 it is to discourage consumption through electric space heating 1 Mr.

Chairman, it is to discourage the use of electric heat because that will see us having to install more and more diesel generators, that will see more and more diesel fuel being burnt, very expensive diesel fuel· MR. HISCOCK: Do the same here in St. John's. MR. BARRY: Well, Mr. Chairman, there are some very strong arguments being put up and I invite the member to go down to the Public Utilities Boarohearings and raise that very point because there was a very interesting debate under- 4 way MR. NEARY: All a waste of time. MR. BARRY: - and the member for St. John's North (Mr.

Carter) and other members have, from time to time, made that presentation to the Public Utilities Board that they should impose the same system MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) Tory hacks. MR. BARRY: - for the rest of the Province - AN HON. MEMBER: Right on. MR. BARRY: - to have a built-in energy conservation factor when it goes beyond a certain point. But, Mr. Chairman,hon. members opposite, unfortunately, are keeping their heads in the sand.

They tried it in the last general election and the people of this Province saw their party and their members bent over like this with their headsin the sand , and they saw our members on this side of the House striving forward into the future - SOME HON. MF""BERS : Oh, oh! 2057 .. ,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 726 NM - 2 MR. BARRY: - proudly, boldly, energetically, intelligently. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. BARRY: Hear, hear! And, Mr. Chairman, they did not show on their campaign poster their heads in the sand,but every time they opened their mouths during the last general election and heard the muffled groans and complaints and the muffled negatives that carne out, the people of this Province could see that their heads were in the sand. Now ,it is the same way- they are making exactly the same mistake. It is pathetic, you know, it is pathetic.

We have a by-election underway in Bellevue and exactly the same mistake is being made. The Leader of the Onnosition (Mr . Stirling) - MR. NEARY: Will not make the mistake - MR. BARRY: - the Leader of the Opposition, he does it in living colour on television- MR. FLIGHT: SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oht' you will see, you will see. Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Listen, I had to let him retape it three times. times because he cried so much on the first two tapings .I had to let him do it a third time. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : MR. BARRY: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. BARRY: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. BARRY: Order, please! Mr.

Chairman - Oh, oh! Mr. Chairman - Oh, oh! Order, please! Members opposite, they are raising an uproar, it is a calamity of the greatest magnitude. It is all over, the Province is corning to an end because there is an eight per cent increase in hydro rates being projected. MR. FLIGHT: Twenty-three. 2058 ') 'l • I

March 27 , 1981 Tape No. 726 NM - 3 MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, nobody likes to see rates go up. Nobody likes to see the price of anything go up. But compare, Mr. Chairman, compare the record of Newfoundland Hydro where it came in predicting it would need a nineteen pe~ cent increase and by proper management,. by good direction from the minister it was able .to' keep the increase down to nine per cent, Mr. Chairman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

BARRY: That is over close to a t~'lo year period when the cost of living, the price of everything was going up over twenty per cent in the same period, over twenty per cent and we kept our price of electricity down to nine per cent. Mr Chairman, I would say that is performance. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . B ARRY : That is performance. Now, Mr. Chairman, we intend to see the same thing - one minute, half a minute - we intend to see the same thing being done as far as electrical rates are con­ cerned in the future, to keep the price down as low as .) 2059 ., 'i1 'II .,, •p

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 727 SD - 1 MR. L. BARRY: possible, get as many inter- connections done, get as many people off the diesel systems and then,hopefully,when there are only a few places left on we can have the funds to brina those in as well. There are some that will never be inter-connected - MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Order, please! MR. BARRY: - but when there are only a few - MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. minister's time has expired. MR. BARRY: - we will be able to bear the cost of serving them (inaudible) Hydro. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Carbonear. MR. MOORES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Now,we have just heard it again, Mr. Chairman, the same old drudgery that we hear every time the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) takes his place in debate,about all the progress and development that we have made in this Province relative to cost of energy and keeping the cost of electrical consumption down etc.,etc. And the fact still remains,even though the rates in Nova Scotia are as high as they are,relative to- AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) with ours. MR. MOORES: -real income, Newfoundlanders pay more for electricity than any other Canadian~. MR. BARRY: MR.

MOORES: There is no increase at all (inaudible). And that, Mr. Chairman, is the important - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Order, please! MR. BARRY: By the way I will investigate any complaints of discrepancy. MR. MOORES: That is alright, I will take time to gather my thoughts, Sir. 2060 ') · ~ .. ,I . .. ,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 72 7 SD - 2 ~'?.. B7\."""'~Y : Sorr y , ::r. ~~e:rrt ~ e r ~ MR. MOORES: accustomed to it now. AN HON . MEMBER: That is alright, Mr. Minister. I am Very cordial. MR. MOORES: Former Premier Smallwood, when I sat with him as a member of the Reform Party, always used to tell me , when you get interruptions use it to collect your thoughts . I always took that good advice. I would like to make - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. MOORES: - not really. What deep , dark trepasses, Mr. Chairman, of ignorance would the people of this Province be in if the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) was muzzled to the point that the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) would like him to be. MR. NEARY: MR. MOORES: He would have a field da y , would he not? He would have a field day. The drudgery of debate in this H.ouse is so boring at times that it would frighten even the most enthusiastic listener. Except for the member for LaPoile and his enlightenment . of the people of this Province, I do not think that this House would be worth half that it is today.

Al~ of these abuses of public spending, misuse of public funds ill-informed and ill-conceived government policy- more has come to light in debate in this House through the auspices of the research and energy of the member for LaPoile then any other five members combined. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR . MOORES: And when the day comes th .at this House is absent of my colleague for LaPoile,and it will not be through defeat in an election, it will probably be through. - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. 2061 . .. , ., .

!-1arch 27, 1981 Tape No. 727 so - 3 MR. R. MOORE S: - attrition, it will not be through political def~~t. MR. HANCOCK: I can tell you the Minister of Public Works (inaudible). MR. MOORES: When that day comes, when that happens, Mr. Chairman, the people of this Province will be the worse off because of it. SOME HO~. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. M:R. HANCO .CK: Give it to her 'Rod'. (Inaudible) of office , that is a fact. MR. BARRY: We will consider your application. MR. MOORES: If I could just continue in that vien for a moment, MI. Chairman - MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): Order, please!

The hon . member for Carbonear has the floor. MR. MOORES : - the member for LaPoile, my well-voiced colleague from LaPoile (~tr . Neary) is the exact opposite of the government in one ver.y important respect, he discloses as much information as they conceal. SOHE _ HPN_ ._ MEMBERS : Hear, hear . MR . HOL:C.ETT: Well said • Rod', well said . . MR. MOORES: And, Mr. Chairman, the member for St. John's East (Mr . Marshall) when he spoke on this resolution , pointed out that various members on the Opposition ') 2062 •r, .. , ., ''l .,

.~ - March 27, 1981 Tape No. 728 EL - 1 MR. MOORES: side were speaking to matters not very germane to the concept of interim supply and that we should stick more to government spending and government expenditures, things more relevant to what interim supply means . to debate in the House. And the basic question that we have to put forth, contrarv to the comments of the member for Harbour Grace (H. Young) that are filibustering - Well, that just shows you how his minute understandinq of the science of pOJ.J. tics works.

We are as· far from filibustering on this now as you could possibly be but ,nevertheless ,it is the responsibility of this Opposition to bring forth,however major or however minor , abuses of public spending in this Province. And the crux of the matter is that as an Opposition we should not permit, without extensive debate, the passage of thisresolution and allow the government to have public funds to spend when they have ,in fact,abused public spend­ ing in this Province. This Province has never been more bankrupt in all its days of Confederation.

This economy, Provincial economy, has never been more stifled and more stymied. Public spending in this Province on services such as social services, highways, health facilities, educational facilities have never been more short coming. The people in this Province are int­ ellectually, socially, economically and culturally destitute and they have become so by the misinformation, the propaganda of this government, a lack of planning, a lack of policy formulation _ for the common ordinary Newfoundlander. Thos·e are germane to the points of interim supply.

Those are the points we want to make in this Housei why the government should not be given a carte blanche expenditure of $448 million. They cannot even spend $4 million right, let alone $448 million. And my 2063 ... . .. -. .. ,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 728 EL - 2 MR. MOORES: colleague from LaPoile (S.Neary) is exactly right when he says that this tourism promotion of a Screech certificate is costing-the public taxpayers of this Province money,while the Department of Social Services is neg­ ligent in its duties in providing glasses to its recipients, eyeglasses and crutches and wheelchairs- And do not tell me, ask me!

Because I have been involved with dozens and dozens of social assistance recipients trying to get themselves a pair of glasses and going through the nonsense and trash., theregulations the Department of Social Services have formulated. The Minister of Social Services (T. Hickey) should be the last one to get up in this House and pr,etend that he knows anything about social legislation and social services.

The years of experience in this House and the fact that he may have been a social worker a few years ago,do not give him a monopoly on modification,on intelligence and on new programmes and new insights into the social services in this country and this society. And my friend from LaPoile is right, right on. The wastage, the embarrassing wastage of public funds when there are people in this Province actually hurtinq, and then the Minister of Manpower and Labour CJ. Dinn)_ getting up and talk­ ing about how the unemployed in this Province from fifteen to twenty-five has improved.

Go down to Memorial University where next week or next month there are going to oe 6,000 students come on to the unemployment rolls and ask the President of the CSU of Memorial University what specific. programmes this government is going to implement to hire unemployed students this Summer• MR. lvARREN: And then give us statistics. MR. MOORES: And then give us statistics. Let him give us the real statistics. And the Minister of Education 2064 . .. , .., ' :j ,. ') .

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 728 EL - 3 MR. MOORES: (L.Verge) talking about student aid in this Province and how it is one of the best programmes in Canada. I owe more student aid than she knows anything about. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2065 ., ., ')

March 27, 1981 Tape 729 PK - 1 MR. HANCOCK: That is why you are so much better than (inaudible) . MR. MOORES: And I tell you, Mr. Chairman, the deceit and the propaganda and the misleading statements that have come out of this government are just unbelievable. The Minister of Education (Ms.

Verge) to get up in this House this morning and try to tell me 1 a student of Memorial University who held every position in student politics, to tell me about the social assistance programme in this Province, and I will tell you it has been a dismal failure 1 that there are more Newfoundland students owing money to the Canadian Government than any other province in Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MOORES: And she talks about her knowledge of student aid. Dear lord, what an insult. Thank God, Mr. Cl-airman, that I have thirty seconds to paraphase my introduction to these ten minutes of remarks.

I only hope that no sickness of any sort overcomes my colleague for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) because if it does I am going to have to retire from the House. MR. NEARY: No way. Mil.. MOORES : I do not think I will . ever sit here again if he is not here to enlighten the people of Newfoundland, to enlighten the qovernment, and to put the Opposition on a clear course to becoming the next government of this Province. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Butt) : Order, please! The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member who just spoke fell into the trap again, walked right into the trap again. He said, what would happen if the member 2066 ., ''I

March 27, 1981 Tape 729 PK - 2 MR. DINN: for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) were muzzled in this House? Well, Mr. Chairman, what would happen? AN HON. MEMBER: You would have a field da y . MR. DINN: There would be a lot of things happen. Number one, we would not have the foolishness of the hon. member for LaPoile getting up and talking about the highest unemployment rate ever in this country ·. We would not have the hon. member criticizing Statistics •, Canada .again about unemployment. We would not have the hon. member talk about his four colleagues in Ottawa with their new youth employment strategy for this Summer.

You would not have him getting up criticizing the poor old federal government which gets enough criticism from all other sectors, Mr. Chairman. The hon. member should try to collect his thoughts. There is no money in education. Well, Mr. Chairman, if he had looked at interim supply alone, $114, 630,000 for education. No money for education, Mr. Chairman. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. DINN: Well, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for LaPoile says, the bottom is gone out of the economy. Well, let us see what other people are saying. Let us not just take my word for it.

The Economic Co~ncil of Canada does not believe that. They say that the economic growth rate in this Province this year will be 3 to 3.5 per cent, and it could go to 5.5 per cent. The economic outlook for Canada is ze~o growth. Now, Mr. Chairman, let us have a look at that. What does that mean? Let us have a look at what the people think. MR. WARREN: (Inaudible) MR. DINN: Let us have a look at what the people in this country think. Let us have a look at what the people in Newfoundland themselves think. Out- 2067 ') . • <" .. ,

March 27, 1981 MR. DINN: indicator. MR. NEARY: Tape 729 PK - 3 ward and inward migration is an (Inaudible) . MR. DINN: Outward and inward migration is an indicator, if 12,018 go out and 11,000 come in ,the net outward migration is 1,018. So, Mr. Chairman- MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) Tory Party. MR. DINN: Now in 1969, and I will quote the exact figures because hon. members opposite, I know they do not believe Statistics Canada when they are favourable to this government, but the net outward migration in 1969 was somewhere around 8,000. The exact figure I have here somewhere, it was 8,625.

The net outward migration in 1969 was 8,625. The net outward migration last year was 1,018. It has been going down for the past three years dramatically, going down dramatically. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: In 198l,or between now and 1985, in tne next five years, the net outward inward migration will turn itself around. There will be more corning back than going out. That is a prediction, Mr. Chairman. AN HON. MEMBER: Corning back? MR. DINN: It is founded on good, basic statistical information.

All you have to do is get the empirical data we have had over the past four or five or six years,project that , based on what the Economic Council of Canada says with respect to our economic growth of 3 to 3.5 per cent, based on the figures for the employment 2068 .. , . 'l .. , ...

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 730 NM - 1 MR. DINN: rate last year- the employment rate forty-six per cent, :1ot great, but it is the greatest s;nce as far as statistics go back. They go back to 1966, or that is as far back as I have been able to go. A;1d the employment statistics indica-te that the employment growth rate in this Province is greater now than it has ever been since they starting collecting statistics. Mr. Chairman, that refutes any­ thing tPat the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) says with respect to the bottom dropping out of the economy. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Butt): Order, please! A point of order raised by the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Could Your Honour take a poke at the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) to see if he is asleep or if he is sick? MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: a point of order. and Manpower. Order, please! Is he ill or is he asleep, Order, please! That is not The han. Minister of Labour ' MR. DINN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is about all the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has to say to dis- rupt the House,to MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN : (Inaudible) . Order, please! MR.

DINN: the House. - to try to muzzle this side of They do not want to hear the good~ormation. It does not matter that it is just coming from this side of the House, but the Economic Council of Canada is saying it, Statistics Canada is saying it. MR. THOMS: (Inaudible) colleague (inaudible) do so. 2069 ' 'I ' 'I .. ,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 730 NM - 2 MR. DINN: And the han. members opposite do not want to hear it, do not want to listen, do not want to hear this good positive stuff happening in this Province. Mr. Chairman, this is going to continue. I am going to now just predict,as I did for the Rotary Club of St.

John's yesterday, I am going to predict a few of the things that will happen in the next three or four or five years, based on this foundation, this strategy that the government has with basically no increase in the basic taxation structure­ the Retail Sales Tax ,I believe ,is what the Premier said during the election- and Newfoundland provincial income tax, personal income tax, Mr. Chairman, a few of the promises that were made. Well, Mr. Chairman, the han. the Premier has always kept these kinds of promises. 'No increase in retail sales~ he said, 'no increase in provincial personal income tax~ Mr.

Chairman, I predict that for 1981 that will be true unless there is an election. If hon. members keep going the way, they are going there may be - there may very well be an election. MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! Let us have an election. MR. DINN: The Premier may be provok~d- and,Mr. Chairman, we will have to appoint an opposition. MR. ROBERTS: That is right. All the Liberal~ will be over there (inaudible) . MR. DINN: So, Mr. Chairman, the net out- ward migration,as I said, which is an indicator, peaked in 1969 at 8,625, and is now down to 1,018 for 1980. That is an indicator.

The economic growth is an indicator; what is going to be the growth rate economically in this Province this year,and it is about 3.5 per cent predicted by very reputable people, people who look at the economy. Mr. Chairman, the employment rate which,as I said.is the best - the employment rate in this Province is the best census as far asstatistics go back. 1966 2070 ., ''i .. .. ,

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 730 NM - 3 MR. DINN: is when Stats Canada really started collecting these statistics. They are up now to forty-six per cent and the employment rate is the number of people employed verses the population in the ag-e CTr"1'." fifteen and above. And, Mr. Chairman, that 1 at forty-six . for 19 80 1 should go to now 1 they are predicting J should go to about 50 per cent in the next four to five years. Mr. Chairman, we talked during the election about improvement in resource management.Well can anyhodv refute that?

Is there anybody on the Opposition side who can refute the fact that resource manaae:m.ent, forest management and protection is not in good handswith the hon. - MR. ROBERTS: The federal minister (inaudible). MR. DINN: - the hon. Minister of Forestry? Can anybodyrefute that? Can anybody stand up in the Opposition and talk about the resource management regime that has been put in place by the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy: Mr. Chairman, can anybody refute that? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DINN: The hon.mernbers should be up - take a bow before you go. Very good. The hon. member should take a bow.

The management regime that is in place in Mines and Energy, Mr. Chairman, and I could go through alL the resource areas,I could go through all the resource areas. MR. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman (inaudible). MR. DINN: Fishing; The han. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) had his little conference last week and they stood up, Mr. Chairman MR. ROBERTS: A quorum call, one, two, three, four, five, six. A quorum call, the hon. gentleman (inaudible). 207, .. , ''• .. , .. ,

March 27, 1981 MR. DINN: hear the truth, Mr. Chairman. MR. ROBERTS: colleague then. MR. NEARY: Tape No . 730 NM - 4 Very good. They do not want to We want to hear it from your Call in the members. 2072 .. , ... j ..

..,. J March 27,1981 Tape No. 731 AH-1 MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): We have a quorum. The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower has two minutes. MR. DINN: Mr. Chairman, I will just make one other point before I sit down and that is with respect to jobs offshore. I have to make that point again because I heard the bon. the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) complain to the press that I had some officials up in the Labrador area trying to get people registered for employment offshore and he was complaining that they were not out on the coast.

Well,I indicated last year, number one, the first thing we have to remember is that nobody on the other side is for local preference. They are .totally against local preference 1 so why should they have a complaint about it? SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DINN: Mr.

Chairman ,I also informed the hon. members last year that I would make available to them registration forms, lists of companies availab~e to them 1 and in their twelve trips that the people in Newfoundland pay for , their twelve trips back to their districts, surely 1Mr.Chairman,they can bring back a few registrati~n forms for the people down in Labrador who want to work in the offshore. No 1 Mr.Chairman,they cannot do ,it. So Mr. Chairman~ had to send officials down to Labrador.

This afternoon, today, the minister for Labrador, probably the greatest minister Labrador has ever seen.-- SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: -the Minister for Labrador will be going down today, He is going to arrange, in his Department of Rural Agricultural and Northern Development, registration forms and all the information that the people anywhere in Labrador will need so that they can register for jobs in the offshore. Now, Mr.Chairman, last year 2073 .,

March 27,1981 Tape No. 731 AH-2 MR. DINN: 100 people registered and when it came to the pointwhere they were hiring for the offhsore, we sent out 100 letters to all the people who were registered and we got six replies back,and when we got the six replies back we got six jobs. Now,Mr. Chairman,I do not know what more we can do ,but I do know that the hon. the Minister for Labrador will be up there today with the registration forms and making sure that Labradorians are looked after. SOME HON. MEMBERS : expired. MR. WARREN: SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN: for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Hear, hear!

The hon. minister's time has The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. Mr. Chairman - Oh, oh! Order, please! The hon. member -I am surprised that the Minister of Manpower and Labour (Mr.Dinn) did finish his speech by talking about jobs on the offshore oil and,in particular , pertaining to Labrador. I would like to advise the minister not only is he sending officials of his department down to Labrador about jobs, but I also understand that some constituents of members in the St. John's area are going down there and applying for jobs. Now,Mr.

Chairman, I understood yesterday one of the applicants is a constituent of the Minister of Forest, Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) from the Southern Shore. Now , Mr.Chairman 1 this is a government that is concerned about jobs for Labradorians. This is the kind of a government that is concerned about jobs for Labradorians when they are saying ,·Look, reqardless of where the oil rigs are, regardless of where the contractors are we are going to hire the people from St. John's first.' Now, Mr. Chairman, tile !•lin is ter of 2074 .. ,

Tape No. 731 AH-3 March 27,1981 MR. WARREN: Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) never once mentioned the crucial strike at the College of Trades and Technology. We have a strike on and the minister never even mentioned it, never mentioned the petition, never mentioned about how he signed the petition. A member of this government signed a petition and he never-did once­ mention it. Now,Mr.

Chairman,I would like to go back and ask the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr Barry)-when he was talking about diesel rates, I am surprised that the minister never mentioned a telegram that has gone to him - maybe he has not received it yet- about a petition of about two or three hundred names that is in the mail to. him concerning diesel rates in a community in Northern Labrador, Nain. Now,Mr. Chairman, I will tell the minister some factual information that he will not be able to blow his horn too loud about today. The people are upset, the people are asking for a full investigation , a full