Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 46 (30th Legislature, 2nd Session)

30-2-46

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LE GISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Monday, April 14, 197 5 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSIT IES AFFAIRS 1253 MR . CHAIRMAN : I would refer honourable members to Pages 13 and 14 of their Estimate Book. Resolution 3l(a) - the Honourable Member for Brandon West . MR . McGILL: Mr . Chairman, on Friday last when the Minister presented his Estimates for the Department of Colleges and Univers ities , we left off, I believe, before any comments had been made .

I wish to acknowledge at this time the explanations that were made by the Minister , and I think at this time it would be appropriate to make some general observations in respect to the problems and the issues of post-secondary education in Manitoba. We don't have a line for the Minister's salary so I think it would be appropriate perhaps in this opening resolution to make a few observations about the problems as we see them at the mom ent .

The financial, the space and the work stoppage problems besetting the University of Manitoba today, with its unsettling influences on the administration, the faculty, the support staff, the community at large and the students , point to the need for a new innovative policy and approach to post-secondary education in Manitoba. There is a need to re -define the relations between our three universities in particular and government and its agency, the University Grants Commiss ion . Last year the government was presented with the report of the Oliver Task Force on post secondary education in Manitoba.

The government proceeded to appoint an internal task force to study the findings and recommendations of the report, and invited submissions of comment from the universities . Mr . Chairman, here we have a report which examined in detail the changing needs of the university and of the community colleges , and which outlined in its recom menda tions , whether or not we agree with any or all of them, a new approach to meet the changes and needs of the 1970s in terms of organization, accessibility, financing, accountability, and relations with government . Mr . Chairman, what action has the government taken?

It has proceeded hesitantly. It has yet to outline its over-all policy and approach, and present them for the examination of this House . Instead, while there is every indication of mounting problems, perhaps even a crisis situation , the Minister of Colleges and Universities has been content to proceed on a piecemeal ad hoe basis . He has been content to rely on the mechanisms and procedures of the 1960s to cope with the requirements of 197 5 .

Instead of a comprehensive policy that would enable the universities of this province to discharge their obligations in teaching, in research, and con tinuing education , we have had bits and pieces of policy announced intermittently.

Thus we have had announ cements on co-ordination of certain graduate programs between the Universities of Manitoba and Winnipe g and the suggestion that adjunct professor appointments be used; we have had a statement that university research involving provincial grants of over $15, OOO would be closely co-ordinated with provincial research activities through the Cabinet Planning Secretariat; and we have a statement on mature and special students . Mr . Chairman, the Minister appears intent on pursuing this ad hoe approach and of con tinuing to make his announcem ents in bits and drabbles.

Last Wednesday during the debate in the Hous e, he said that discussions were going on with the three universities about their bud gets and operations and ways to allow for better budgetting . He also said that some suitable satisfactory relationship between the universitie s and the Universities Grants Commission is being worked out . These offhand bits of information tell members of this House very little. No detail is given . There's no indication of what the over-all policy is ; no ind ication of what the discussions will lead to, how they fit into a policy appropriate to the needs of today and to morrow .

Mr . Chairman, the government and the Minister must be faulted for failure to act, for failure to come forward openly with at least the broad general outlines of a policy, of a new approach; for failure to present this policy to this House so that me mbers can examine and dis cuss it; for failure to tell the public what action the government will take to meet the gathering crisis in higher education in Manitoba, action beyond the mere imposition of financial controls on univers ity budgets.

The me ans whereby the independence and integrity of the university will be maintained should be a concern of all of us , if only because attacks on the universities are frequently among the first si gns of political authoritarianism in the whole society. But if university

1254 April 14, 1975 . SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. McGILL cont'd) ..... independence is a concern to us all, it should concern no one more than the members of the university itself, whether they be faculty, students or adminis trators. To them, I think, must be assigned a major responsibility for defining the university's role in the modern society, and in some measure in defending it against encroachments from politicians and others who have it involved in things that are not its concern. Mr.

Chairman, one of the ways in which this may be best achieved, I believe, is for the universities to move increasingly to open the university to public view. Remarkably little is known about the operations, organizational or financial, of our publicly-supported universities. To open the budgets of universities, it may be objected, would lead to criticism of expendi tures that many laymen might not understand, but in our view such criticisms can be dealtwith.

My fear, on the contrary, is that a public and a Legislature which knows little or nothing about university financing or operations, will be far more susceptible to unreasonable and unreason ing criticism of a financial administration that does not understand and for which there is relatively little public accounting. This year's estimates include a requested appropriation of more than 74 million for the University Grants Commission. That appropriation takes up one line only of the estimates - no elaboration, no explanation, no breakdown as to how that appropriation will be distributed or accounted for.

If one looked at the other financial statements of the government, little more like would be said, for the budget of the universities do not form part of the Public Accounts of Manitoba. I submit to you, Mr. Chairman, with respect, that they should be. I submit that the Legislature as agents of the community does have a right to know how any money is spent if the Legislature is to authorize the collection of taxes for such expenditures.

The need for an appropriate long-term policy framework for higher education in this pro vince is all the more imperative when we examine the multi-million dollar enterprise that the Department of Colleges and University Affairs has become, in terms of the Main Estimates expenditures alone, last year 93. 5 million, this year 121 million. For the current fiscal year, the University Grants Commission will require $74, 295, OOO and the Community Colleges, $20,427,000. Mr.

Chairman, it is in the context of these growing expenditures, this growing burden on the taxpayers of Manitoba, that we look to the Minister for a definitive statement of govern ment policy that would enable our universities and colleges to function efficiently and effectively in discharging their mandates for the balance of this decade. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 31(a). The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman, in dealing with 3l(a) - well, really, dealing with 31, in dealing with 31 (

a) I have to go to (

b) because it relates back and forth, I wonder if the Minister can explain with reference to the salaries, why the rise in Other Expenditures is so huge, and what other expenditures are included. And, Mr.

Chairman, the reason this relates to salaries is because I would have to go back to the Public Accounts of the year before, and in dealing with this particular item, point out that the salary range shown for Support Services - Internal was 24 6, OOO, that is in the year ending 1973-74, with Other Expenditures 84, OOO; and while I recognize that there is obviously some adjustment because salary ranges are less, neverthe less the Other Expenditures proportionately are down a great deal and I'd like the Minister to give some expl1mation on that. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

In reply to the Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, the difference in total on Resolution 31 of about 380, OOO is made up pri marily of two or three items; 30, 300 is to cover general salary increases, including the salary of the Regional Co-ordinator for the continuing education program in the Parklands Region; and the remaining 348, OOO is broken down into three parts: 62. 6 are the costs of the working group on the Post-Secondary Task Force; 158, 000, our costs to the Western College of Veterinary Medicine in Saskatoon; and 128, OOO are the full year costs for the Parklands Continuing Education Program that's under way.

MR. SPIVAK: With respect to the breakdown of the items, there obviously was a change from the year 73-74 to the year 74-75 because your other expenditures included $84, OOO, and this was shown as $33,000. You now explained the rise to $381,000, and without getting into that rise yet and I will, I just wonder again what basic change occurred between the year 73-74 to 74-75 that found the reduction in Other Expenditures and then . MR. HANUSCHAK: I'm sorry, a reduction.

April 14, 1975 1255 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES MR , SPIVAK: Yes, On your Support Services in the Public Accounts for the year 73-74 your Public Accounts show Other Expenditures of $8 4, OOO; 74-75 shows $33, OOO, so thatts a reduction of $5 0, OOO more or less . Now you have a rise into $381, OOO, and you•ve explained that :rise at this point, And before I deal with . , , MR. HANUSCHAK: I•m sorry, Mr.

Chairman, but if the honourable member is reading from Public Accounts he must be reading from the year prior to that because the figures shown in the Estimate Book are for the fiscal year just ended, and the Public Accounts are for the year prior to that. MR, SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman, I've already indicated that to the --(Interjection)-- No I indicated that in my remarks, I•m sorry the Minister misunderstood that, or didn•t catch it. I said that, I recognize it. I•m quoting from Public Accounts in 73-74. But other expendi tures for the Public Accounts for 73-74 were $84, OOO.

For the fiscal year 74 -75 it was obviously reduced by $50, OOO to 33, OOO. Now he•s explaining the difference in the rise to 381, OOO, but before I come to that I•d like him to explain, if he could, why there was a reduc tion in Other Expenditures for Support Services Internal from the previous year of 73-74 , which is for the Public Accounts, to the last fiscal year. MR. HANUSCHAK: Because, Mr. Chairman, the year prior to that, the year reported in Public Accounts, also includes the expenditures of the Post-Secondary Task Force. MR.

SPIVAK: The year 73-74 included the Post-Secondary Task Force and there were no charges for the last year in that, and the charges now are for this year. Is that right? MR . HANUSCHAK: No there are no charges for that this year, Mr. Chairman, not for the Post-Secondary Education Task Force. I never said that. MR. SPIVAK: Well if I•m correct, in dealing with the Other Expenditures one of the amounts that he suggested that made up the bulk of this, I believe he said 153, OOO were for the Post-Secondary Task Force. MR. HANUSCHAK: No, Mr. Chairman.

If th e honourable member would check his notes, if he was keeping notes, I did not say that. A MEMBER: That•s what I understood. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman, that•s my understanding, and if that•s not correct then I•d like the Minister to explain again, if he would not object to it, how the $381, OOO is arrived at, where the amounts are forthcoming? MR . HANUSCHAK: Again I will take the honourable member very slowly through my explanation. I said the following, lVlr.

Chairman: I said that of the $380, OOO difference, approximately $380, OOO, plus or minus a few hundred dollars, 30 . 3 thousand dollars is general salary increases. I believe the Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition remembers me saying that. Then I went on to say that of the 348, OOO remaining, or $348. 6 thousand remaining to be exact, I said that $62. 6 thousand was for the expenses of the working group, of the in-house working group on the Post-Secondary Task Force, but I did not say that those are the expenses of the Post-Secondary Task Force, and the other items which I will try to enumerate . MR.

SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman, now that the Minister has explained the position, and I•m sorry there was a misunderstanding, but I must say to him that he has a book in front of him which gives him the details, we do not. And there are going to be occasions when we•re going to require some information, and I would hope that he would recognize that that•s our function. I would now ask him how much does the Post-Secondary Task Force cost the people of Mani toba? MR . HANUSCHAK: I•m sorry, Mr.

Chairman, I cannot give the honourable member that figure now because that was an expense incurred in the fiscal year prior to the one just ended, But I could get those figures. As soon as I get them out I•ll give them to the honourable mem ber. MR.

SPIVAK: I appreciate the fact that some time may be required to get that informa tion, to be in a position to be able to get that from the Minister, and then I want to ask him then, of the $62. 6 thousand I believe, which is the Post-Secondary Task Force in-house work ing group, is this the only charge with respect to the in-house working group dealing with the Post-Secondary Task Force report, or are there other charges with respect to salaries or any other item in Colleges and Universities to which this additional cost should be charged.

125 6 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES MR •. HANUSCHAK: That is the only charge, Mr, Chairman. MR •. SPIVAK: Are there any grants included in other expenditures? MR •. HANUSCHAK: No, Mr, Chairman. MR •. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Riel. April 14, 1975 MR, HANUSCHAK: Itm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I am advised that there is approximately a variety. of grants making up a total of 18, OOO out of Other Expenditures. MR •. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR •. SPIVAK: I wonder if the Minister would indicate by reading off what those grants are. MR . HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Canadian University Services Overseas, Inter- national Bureau of Education, and the Canadian Audio Book Library, which is the transcription of text books onto tape for the visually handicapped. MR. SPIVAK: Could you give the amounts please. MR . HANUSCHAK: In total about 18, OOO - 16 or 18, OOO. For the Audio Book tapes, itt s about 14, OOO; and then the remainder are the other two grants, and I haven't got the exact amounts here. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr.

Chairman, first of all I wonder if I could ask the Minister if the amounts for the veterinary training Saskatchewan, is this a transfer from another department, from another year, or is it a new creation within the government that shows up in Colleges and Universities? It seems to me that there were grants before in other departments. It might have been the Department of Agriculture, Does it show up this year in Education, or is this something that is new in the way of bursary support to students going to the University of Saskatchewan, to the Veterinary College there?

Itm not even sure it's the University of Saskatchewan but it is in Saskatchewan. The other item, Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask the Minister about is that we have now the three universities in Manitoba and we have the other Red River Community College, Assiniboine, Keewatin and so on, we have this proliferation really now of post-secondary opportunity for young people coming out of high school and going back into the history of you know, education in Manitoba, one of the really big problems has always been to relate to the students coming out of the high schools what their opportunities are after they leave there.

To a very large extent the programs in the high schools now are more or less tailored to where they're going to go after. But it seems to me that we've always had a diff iculty, a real difficulty in interpreting to the students what the opportunities are, what the requirements are of them and so on, the type of counselling that1s required t.o offer them the greatest opportu nity t.o take advantage of both the university and the more vocational or technical and other training that's available in the province.

Now this has always been a particular difficulty in rural Manit.oba, mainly because trad itionally the young people haven1t had the opportunity to meet with as many people that are already in the professions and trades and so on that they may wish to go into-; And I wonder with all of this development in opportunity that is there whether this

section of Support Ser vices has directed itself t.o attempting t.o develop or encourage programs that will help students in deciding where they're going to go after they get out of high school. Itm particularly refer ring t.o rural Manitoba where we know very well that the quality of education opportunity has not been existent and apparently still is not existent even after the present development of the vocational institutions.

I wonder if he could indicate under Support Services if the government as a department has directed itself t.oward this deficiency or whether they're still leaving it entirely up t.o the institutions themselves to establish communications with the high schools to see that the job is done. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, Itll start off with the honourable member's second question first.

Whatever funds are expended and effort made by the Community Colleges to acquaint the high school students with the course offerings which they provide, that comes under the next resolution, Resolution No. 32, but anyway the honourable member had raised the question at this point and if I could, Mr. Chairman, with your permission just take a minute or two t.o respond. The Student Personnel Services Branch within the Department of Education does send out

April 14, 1975 1257 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR, HANUSCHAK cont'd) , •... guidance material to schools for their use, for the use of the teachers and guidance counsellors, and the community colleges do organize Open House functions to acquaint the prospective students with the programs offered by them; and in addi tion to that there are also organized visits from the schools to the community colleges.

Keewatin Community College which is the one in The Pas, has employed a person this spring to do an extensive visiting job in the whole area of northern Manitoba, and the purpose of that is to - realizing that many of the students from the north are from isolated communities and as the Honourable Member for Riel had explained it, are not in as close contact with what is available in post-secondary education, therefore special effort has to be made to acquaint them with it, and that is being done.

Assiniboine Community College in Brandon also does likewise send staff out into the entire catchment area of Assiniboine Community College to the various high schools to inform them of the course offerings that it provides .

And the honourable member may have noticed in dif ferent parts of Winnipeg, and this also went beyond the City of Winnipeg, where Red River Community College had used a trailer as a method of informing people about the courses offered at Red River which used to be set up in shopping centre areas at fairs and exhibitions and so forth, itts moved around to different places again with the prupose in mind of inform ing prospective students of the courses that are available.

And universities also do likewise through their efforts to provide the students with firsthand information of what the universities offer by visits to campuses, Open Houses, videotapes and so forth. Now, the Honourable Member for Riel asked whether the grant to the Veterinary College, which is in Saskatchewan, which is part of the University of Saskatchewan on the Saskatoon campus, that is a new expenditure, that was not found in some other government appropri ation.

As the honourable member himself may recall, there was a dialogue or a debate which had continued for a number of years prior to '69 as to the commitment of the Province of Mani toba to support the Province Of Saskatchewan on behalf of the students enrolled there who may have originated in the Province of Manitoba, and this agreement was finalized last year and now we1re paying a per capita - for the last fiscal year it was something in the order of 35 or 36 hundred dollars - $3, 765 per student, and for this fiscal year it will be just bordering on 4, OOO, just a bit over $4, OOO per student. MR .

CRAIK: Then the government is aiming at probably somewhere in the order of 30- odd students attending from Manitoba? MR . HANUSCHAK: This year there are 35. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Chairman, another question on the topic of the regional co-ordinator in Parklands. What will be his responsibilities, or what is the office responsibilities? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, this arises out of a recommendation of the Post Secondary Education Task Force Report.

One of its recommendations was - well, it was based on the premise that it became quite apparent to the Task Force after a series of hear ings that it held, briefs that it received, that No. 1, education is not something which ends at a certain point in a person's lifetime but continues throughout one's lifetime; and No. 2, that there are portions of the Province of Manitoba wherein the people do not enjoy the same access to post-secondary or continuing education services and facilities as other areas do.

And then it concluded with make the recommendation that the government do move in that direction by developing a continuing education program that would be made universally available to all the people of the Province of Manitoba.

The government did move on this recommendation, and in moving in that direction it chose to make maximum use of all available resources, physical and human, in other words, making use of the existing building facilities whatever physical equipment may be necessary that may be owned by schools, community colleges, whatever, through a co-operative effort with the community colleges and school divisions and others; and also making maximum use of what ever human resources are available in the various parts of the province to provide a type of education program that the people of any community would desire.

The Parkland Region was chosen as an area to launch a pilot project of this type, com mencing primarily in three communities within the Parkland Region, Ste. Rose, Roblin and Swan River. A co-ordinating committee was established consisting of representatives from the Parkland Development Corporation, from the school division and other groups represented

1258 April 14, 1975 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. HANUSCHAK cont•d) •••.• on the advisory committee, and then at the grassroots level as it were, within the community, a study, a survey was done to identify the community•s needs what type of program the community would want, and then the resources were found, human and physical, to offer that type of program; and the program is designed to continue from then on, And l•m happy to rePort, Mr. Chairman, that during the past few months of the program•s existence it had made considerable progress.

And just to give honourable members, you lmow, some indication of the types of courses that are being offered and the resPonse.

In the three communities - and this is commencing, oh, at the very earliest in February of this year, and some of these courses are still continuing and will continue until mid-May, the end of May, and these were courses which the people of the community said that they wanted - and they range from the very practical types of courses which people would require to assist them in their day to day work, such as farm wiring and welding and carpentry and so forth in the rural communities, typing, hairstyling, basic sewing, two courses such as ceramics and oil painting, conversational French, conversational Ukrainian and even karate in the Swan Valley area at Bowsman, 15 students studied - I•m sorry not Bowsman, Birch River - at Birch River, there are 15 who enrolled in the karate course over there.

So I•m just warning the Honourable Mem ber for Swan River that the .•. As well as courses dealing with the metric system at Laurier - well at Laurier in fact there were two offered, metric system, French language and English language course, bookkeeping and accounting, arts and crafts, legal aid and so forth. And these courses in the three communities over the past nine, ten weeks had attracted a total of about 500 students, or close to 500 students.

I did total them up the other day, I think itts 470, 480 students or so during that short interval of time, I met with the co-ordinating committee a week and a half ago at their meeting in Dauphin, and the committee and their co-ordinator Mr. Semchych advised me that they still have a shopping list the length of one•s arm from which to choose courses that they may offer during the forthcoming year.

The program likely will slow down a bit during the summer months be cause of the fact that - well, during the wintertime in a rural community itts more difficult to attract students because of the farm work that takes precedence, The cost for the forthcoming year is estimated roughly, on a per capita basis, of about $5,00 per capita for each community, and that gives the 100 and some odd thousand dollars. And they of course also charge themselves a nominal tuition fee.

What has been offered up until the present time is roughly - the cost distribution is roughly about 66 percent - maybe a bit better - about 75 percent provincial funding and 25 percent local funding by way of tuition fees that they pay. And even if one were to compare the costs, or examine the costs on a per student-per hour basis all of them are running well under $1. 00 pel'-student-hour, in fact some what higher enrolments are running very very much less than that.

And the numbers of students that they attract, just to give honourable members some indication of the appeal of the types of the courses that they have offered up to this point in time: The typing course, there are 31 students enrolled in it at Mccreery; 12 students in the farm wiring cairse at Mccreery; 17 in the ceramics course.

I•d indicated earlier that they cover the entire range from the practical types to those which probably add to personal enjoyment and fulfillment, and perhaps the Honourable Member for Swan River he may be interested in enrolling in at the present time - yes, in Birch River there•s a course in karate that was offered, a course in ceramics; at Benito, the metric system; a number of worthwhile courses of that type, and which I had mentioned a moment ago, both the province and the s1lldents share in the payment of them, And then of course there are some courses which may be of somewhat less popularity than others.

Well, then the local co-ordinating committee takes a look at them and attempts to determine why they were not as popular as they had originally hoped that they would be, and either revise the course to make it more appealing or perhaps they make a decision to scrap it and offer something else in its stead. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you. The Minister indicated that the funding on that program was approximately 25 percent local and 75 percent provincial, Is there no federal funding involved in this program at all? MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Education.

MR. HANUSCHAK: Not at the present time, Mr. Chairman. MR. GRAHAM: The Minister previously indicated there was approximately 158, OOO for

April 14, 1975 1259 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. GRAHAM cont'd) •..•• Veterinary Services at Saskatchewan on approximately $4, OOO per student. Is that money directly paid to the University of Saskatchewan? MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, through the Government of the Province of Saskatchewan. MR. GRAHAM: If there are any students in Manitoba then that want to take veterinary studies at Guelph, they get no assistance from the Province of Manitoba. Is that correct? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, my colleague the Honourable Minister of Agriculture advises me that they•re not being accepted at Guelph, MR . GRAHAM: Can the Minister indicate why they are not being accepted at Guelph? MR . HANUSCHAK: Because they had this college built in the west for the western students. MR . GRAHAM: Can the Minister indicate also if all the students from Manitoba that have applied are being accepted in Saskatchewan ? MR. HANUSCHAK: I woo.id doubt it very much, Mr. Chairman, because it's a limited enrolment faculty. There' s only room for about 11 places per year.

So I would rather suspect that many more than lf would apply. No different than the number of applicants that we would have at the Faculty of Medicine or the Faculty of Law or Dentistry in the Province of Manitoba. MR . GRAHAM: Of the 35 students, then, you say there are no more than 11 in any one course, Does this cover all years in the veterinary, or is this just the first, second and third year in the veterinary course? MR. HANUSCHAK: This is a four-year course, Mr. Chairman.

The Veterinary college admits - our quota is 11 entrants per year but that number may drop off as the years go by, students decide to discontinue their studies for a variety of reasons. But they will admit up to 11 each year. MR . GRAHAM: Can the Minister indicate how many Manitoba students will be graduating this year? MR. HANUSCHAK: Ten or 11. MR , GRAHAM: Will they all be returning to Manitoba to practice after they graduate? MR . HANUSCHAK: I don't know, Mr. Chairman.

MR , GRAHAM: Has the Minister instituted a program similar to the one that was an nounced by the Minister of Health the other day applying to the Medical College, that would insist on the students returning to the Province of Manitoba? MR . HANUSCHAK: I don't believe that that is quite what the Minister of Health said, but I really don't see any point in getting into that argument at this point in time. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, whether the Minister sees any point in it I think there are some people in the Province of Manitoba that are interested in it.

There•s been a considerable shortage of veterinary people in the Province of Manitoba for many years. The Minister of Agriculture was certainly concerned about it several years ago and I commend him for expressing that concern, but I hope that that same concern exists in this department if the responsibility is transferred to the Department of Colleges and Universities. And I would hope that the Minister would give us a far more definitive answer than he has at the present time on what we can expect for graduates in veterinary medicine in the Province of Manitoba. MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, at the present time the influx of graduates in veterinary medicine to serve and to practice in the Province of Manitoba is meeting our needs. But surely the Honourable Minister for Birtle -Russell isn't suggesting that we enter into some contractual arrangement for future services which a student, or eventually the graduate would not be able to break or buy his way out of, to commit himself to the practice of his profession within the Province of Manitoba for any given period of time. MR . GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, that was the exact point I was getting to.

I hope that the Minister does not institute that kind of a program here and I think it's a terrible mistake if the Minister of Health in this province institutes that same kind of program in the Medical College. I think education traditionally, in the post-secondary field, has been a relatively free and open concept and I think that any program which has been proposed by any department of Govern ment which in effect puts a student into a state of bondage or .slavery, is a crime that should not be allowed to occur in this province. MR . HANUSCHAK: Well, you know, Mr.

Chairman, having made the comment which I did a moment ago, of course the honourable member well knows that in other professions, in other

1260 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITI ES (:] April 14, 1975 (MR.

HANUSCHAK cont•d) •••.. faculties, the Faculty of Medicine and dentistry in particular, we do have a special opportunity bursary program and those students wishing to take advantage of it do enter into a contractual arrangement with the Province of Manitoba under which they undertake to practice their profession within the province upon graduation for a certain period of time; and failing to do so then they repay the assistance that they had received minus credit for - I•ve forgotten the number of dollars per month that is given them by way of credit for every month of service - $150 a month I beUeve it is - service within the province.

So really there's nothing wrong with d�signing a program, the purpose and the intent of which is to attract graduates into the Province of Manitoba to practice their profession here; and secondly, to design to retain them in the practice of their profession in our province or in some parts of the province, because in some faculties ••• but let me not stray from the resolution before us, Mr. Chairman, and I would not wish to enter into a debate concerning other faculties.

Perhaps even the same could be said of �ust about any faculty, that there are problems from time to time where we•re faced with a scarcity of professionals within certain geographic areas of the province. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, in reply to the Minister, I want to congratulate him in one aspect. He says that there must be enticement, and I agree. That enticement can take place in many forms. · First of all there has to be an economic enticement. There has to be an opportunity for a student to improve his own lot in the community and to make a worthwhile contribution to that community.

But again I must warn the government that any program that attempts to place constrictions and bonds of whatever nature they may be on the activities of a student in respect to where and where he cannot perform his contribution to society I think would be most detri- mental at this stage in our society. · MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina): Yes, Mr. Chairman, when you were. discussing the Parkland Region you said it was 75 percent provincial funded and 25 percent local. Do the people attending these classes pay tuition fees? MR .

CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR . HANUSCHAK: That is a source of local support, Mr. Chairman, that ranges from about 35 to 50 cents per hour per student. MR . HENDERSON: Pay 25 to 30 cents an hour or do you mean it costs the stu�nts that much to take the course? MR . HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is what I said. That is the tuition fee charged to the student. Charged to the student. MR. HENDERSON: What age group does it take in? All ages in this course or is it - what age group? MR. HANUSCHAK: These are adults, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR.

McGILL : Mr. Chairman, just a few minutes ago a question was asked of the Minister in respect to the cost of the Post-Secondary Task Force on Education. I should say the Post Secondary Task Force, or the Task Force on Post-Secondary Education would be more correct. Now, the Minister's offered to get that information. I•m wondering, is it possible for him to give us some idea of the status of the in-house committee that was established to evaluate the report of the Task Force on Post-Secondary Education. ·Where does that report stand now?

That committee I believe was to make recommendations to the Minister in respect to the Task Force report. MR. CRAI K: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the working group on the Post-Secondary Education Task Force report is still working and this is the reason why I have indicated that in the estimates for the forthcoming year, or for the fiscal with which we are presently deallng, there is $62.6 thousand to cover the costs of its operations.

The continuing education program which is now under way as a pi lot project, which comes from a recommendation of the Task Force and which subsequently was reviewed, and vetted by the working group, and that is one of the products of its efforts; and it is also examining the role and function of the community colleges at the pres ent time, and particularly addressing itself to the recommendations of the Task Force it made with respect to the community colleges as well as the universities. Now the Honourable Member for Brandon West did indicate in his opening remarks that, as I

April 14, 1975 1261 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. CRAIK cont•d) .•••. I understood him, it was somewhat contradictory because he did state that Ws his belief, and I believe he was speaking for his party, that the university should enjoy a certain measure of independence and autonomy, but in the same breath he added that - and I tried to, I just want to quote the - yes, he said, that the universities must move to open themse\ves to public view.

And perhaps a balance le tween the two does have to be found, be tween the state of affairs that we now have and a greater measure of accountability to the public, and that is no easy task, as I am sure the Honourable Member for Brandon West himsel f would probably be the first to agree. MR. McGILL: I thank the Minister for his comments on the earlier remarks made in this debate, but I prefer at the moment to just concentrate on the more immediate in-house com mittee. Could the Minister tell me the terms of reference under which this committee acts? Does it have a limited life?

Will it terminate with a final report to the Minister, or is it on a continuing indefinite bases? MR. HANUSCHAK: No, Mr. Chairman, it has a limited life. It is reviewing the Task Force Report, and I would suspect that after the end of this fiscal year there would not be all that much remaining, any carry-over to the following fiscal year for the Task Force to deal with, that most of its work will have been completed within that period of time. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, will this work of the committee terminate with a written report, and will this report be public information? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, this is an in-house committee or working group, or whatever one wishes to call it, and as it deals with various sections of the report, with various items and issues that the report addresses itself to, it thus reports to government, and govern ment then acts. So it does not take the entire report and wrestle with it and not report back to government until it had completed its review, an analysis of the entire report, but it deals with certain specific issues within it and reports on them. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, might I ask the Minister how many people are involved in the work of this committee, including the committee members? MR . HANUSCHAK: The committee consists of about five, and then there may be support staff on an if, as, and when basis that they will second and utilize as a need may rise, or any consultant staff that they may require at any given point in time. But the committee itself is a committee of five, of government people. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I believe there was a figure of $62, OOO quoted as the total expense of this committee during the past year. Is that correct?

Is there any contract service involved in that figure of 62, 600? MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there are two on contract, Mr. Scott Bateman and Mr. Mayor Brownstone. MR . McGILL: I might ask the Minister, were there any consulting firms employed by the committee with respect to this evaluation? MR. HANUSCHAK: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: One question regarding the pilot project in the Parklands region. Does the Honourable Minister support the regional library concept that we•ve enjoyed out there for the last few years? MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, whose concept? MR . . McKENZIK: The Parkland regional pilot project that has been working for the last five years in the Parkland region. Now with this Parkland pilot project that•s being used through his department, I•m asking now of the Minister, does he support that concept that was done there through the pilot project of a regional library in that area? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, that project is not within my department. MR . CHAIRMAN: Ws under the Department of Tourism and Recreation. MR . McKENZIE: Mr.

Chairman, again I ask the Minister, does he support the concept? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, once again I must ask, what concept? · MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could indicate in the $62.6 thousand in connection with the in-house working group on the Post-Secondary Task Force, if he could indicate what amount is set aside for travelling.

1262 SUPPLY- COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES 0 Aprill4, 1975 MR . HANUSCHAK: I do not have a specific amount before me that•s set aside for travel but I• m sure that I could obtain the figure for the honourable member. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if he can indicate whether one of those on contract who is out of this province, without referring to the particular person, whether his travelling expenses are absorbed by the in-house, as part of the In-house working group cost. MR . HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that•s expense item charged against this appropria tion. MR .

SPIVAK: I wonder if he can indicate to the House the estimate of what that travelling expense would be. MR. HANUSCHAK: Not offhand, Mr. Chairman'. MR. SPIVAK: Well, in the projection of 62.6 if in fact the travelllng expenses of one of those who are on contract is estimated then there must be a figure that makes up or comprises this amount, and I wonder if the Minister could indicate it to the House. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I did indfuate to the honourable member that I 'will attempt to obtain that information for him, but I do not have it with me at the present time, MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 31(b)--passed. Resolved that there be granted toHer Majesty a certain sum not exceed ing $16,300 for Colleges and Universities--passed. Resolution 32 (a)(1) - The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, When we were discussing the estimates of the Minister involved, particularly in the field of education, he promised us with some expecta tion that we would have an opportunity when we got to the discussion of Community Colleges and Specifics to take a more serious look at that time on the question of manpower policy.

I think that if the Minister would recall one of the issues that was raised by myself and my colleague from Assiniboia, was our serious concern at the present moment1 the Manpower planning and policy in employment programs that are operated inside the Province of Manitoba may be of questionable value in reaching the specific groups of people with whom they're supposed to be designed. · And so one of the issues, Mr.

Chairman, that we•d like to raise at the present moment with the Minister, when we begin to examine the estimates of the Community Colleges, is to perhaps go back to some of the fundamental objectives as have been outlined in different docu ments- and 11m sorry we don•t have a report of Colleges and Universities this year, that we could see a redefinition, but if we go back to Guidelines for the Seventies and back to the report on the post-secondary education, it seems clear that one of the primary objectives put forward by the Minister's department in this field is to develop a degree of equality of opportunity in the Manpower programs, to give special aid and training to groups of people in the community who suffer from educational disadvantages, from employment and occupational handicaps and who are generally not able to survive or succeed in the normal job market and therefore need a fair amount of retraining or remedial work.

Mr. Chairman, I•d like, if I may, to ask the Minister some questions concerning the degree to which those basic objectives that in part justify the 20 million-odd dollars of expenditure, to what degree they are being achieved.

For example, could the Minister indicate to begin with whether the unemployment rates -o r perhaps Itll put it in the positive term, the emplo�ent rates of graduates of the Community Colleges are significantly better, or worse, or the same, as comp arable groups in the job market who have not had the kind of training being offered through the occupational or retraining programs in the Community Colleges. Perhaps we could start with that question, if the Minister has an answer for it. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: -Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge ex pressed concern about the fact - he said that he is sorry that he does not have a report from Colleges and Universities, and I wou ld like to remind the honourable member, and all honour able members of the House, that the report that he does not have is the one for the fiscal year just ended, which ended two weeks ago today. But, as is customary in this House, and as has been customary since probably since Day One, reports of the previous year, for the year ended in 1974, that report the honourable member has.

He has that for this department, he has that for a variety of other departments, but he does not have an up-to-date report which we provided last year, and the honourable member if he checks the Votes and Proceedings he will find that we dealt with the estimates of Colleges and Universities somewhat later in the year - it was

April 14, 1975 1263 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. HANUSCHAK cont•d) •.... toward the end of April, beginning of May - and by that time we were able to publish and distribute in the House to all members the report of Colleges and Universities.

But as it happens this year, the estimates of this department are being dealt with a bit earlier than last year, but a bit later than the honourable members of the Official Opposition wanted to deal with them --(Interjection)-- The honourable member expressed regret of the fact that he does not have a report from Colleges and Universities, and I•m simply saying that the honourable member does have a report from Colleges and Universities for the year end ing in 1974, and it was just a matter of courtesy that I extended to honourable members of this House last year when I arranged to provide them with an up-to-date report ending just a matter of weeks prior to its distribution.

Now the honourable member asked me to what degree are we successful in achieving our goals, what are the employment rates of graduates?

And I could give the honourable member some figures on that, on the Adult Basic Education Program, in which we had about 1, 800 stud ents enrolled during the current year of •74-75 and we anticipate approximately an equal number to be enrolled next year, perhaps a very slight drop, and we•re projecting, indeed, a slight drop down to about 1, 750, To give the honourable member some indication of the types of students that are enrolled and what happens to them after they complete their course of studies, most of the students in the Adult Basic Education course are those who have been out of public school for a least one or more years, and about 63 percent of them have had no more than a formal Grade 8, and about 90 percent have had Grade 9 or less, and about 80 percent of them were sponsored by Canada Manpower.

The majority of the students were either unemployed or have histories of unstable employment prior to training ; and about half of them were over the age of 22, and about a third, or 32 percent, were married.

And of the Manpower students - and about 80 percent of them were sponsored by Canada Manpower; the Manpower students completed training, and this is the class of two years ago - that were able to follow through into the employment field: 46 percent were employed soon after completion of their course; 15 percent were taking further training; 27 percent were not in the labour force; and 12 percent were unemployed and seeking employment. That•s of the Adult Basic Education. Now, this is roughly 1, 800 students or so that we•re talking about.

Now within the Career Occupational Educational program which this year had enrolled in it about 8, 750 students - and we•re projecting an increased enrolment of about 9, 300 for the forthcoming academic year, and this is the sum total of the various technical and technological courses that are offered at the three community colleges - about 55 percent of those students were 21 years of age or younger.

Most of these come straight out of high school and continue on with their education, or not long after they•ve completed high school; about 25 percent of them enter directly from public school, and about 25 percent had not more than a formal Grade 10, 21 percent had Grade 11, and 54 percent had Grade 12 or higher; and about 45 percent of them, just about half, were sponsored by Canada Manpower, or, excluding the two-year diploma course in the various technologies, about a 60 percent manpower sponsorship.

Irl a follow-up study of the June 1973 graduates which we conducted last September by my Department, we found that less than 3 percent, less than 3 percent of the graduates were unemployed and look ing for work.

At the time of survey, the national unemployment rates for persons 14 to 24 years of age was 8. 7 percent, and the average age of graduates from our community colleges is 23.1 years; 8, 8 percent were either keeping house full-time or were continuing further education or training. 88. l percent were employed; 92 percent of them had found work in Manitoba. 90 percent, 9 out of 10 found work in training-related occupations. More than 75 percent believe that they could not have obtained their jobs without community college training.

The average weekly earnings reported was $154, 50 a week, or $8, 034 a year, a substantial in crease in both individual and family income, because we had found that the pre-training family income of this troup centered in the $5, OOO to $7, OOO range. And previous surveys which we have done indicated that 69 percent of the non-graduates from certificate and diploma courses at the Red River Community College were employed one month following termination of training, and 90 percent were employed one year following termination.

And itts significant that 46. 6 percent of the non-graduates were employed in training-related occupations, and this frequently happens in a school of this kind. Despite the fact that there is a program set out for a certain period of time with a certificate that•s offered

0 1264 April14, 1975 SUPPLY- COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. HANUSCHAK cont•d) . • • • • at the end, or a diploma upon the successful completion of a given program of. studies, what frequently happens is, that once a student develops certain marketable skills that he could sell and there•s a buyer for them, he sells them. In other words, he goes out and he gets a job. This happens in our community colleges. In fact the same thing happens even in our high schools offering a business education or a commercial course.

Once students reach Grade 11 and Grade 12, towards the end of the year you find the enrolment dropping off because as they develop certain typing, shorthand skills, the operation of various business machines and so forth and there•s a demand for that type of skill, the jobs are there and the students terminate their studies and go to work. So that in brief, Mr.

Chairman, is some of the evidence that we have of the success of our manpower training program and what has happened to the gra<ilates, are they getting work or are they not getting work, and all indication s show that they are, not only are they gainfully employed but they•re employed ln an occupation related to that for which they were training. c._ . . . . . continued on next page. I

April 14 , 1975 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIV ERSI TIES MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. 1265 MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I find the Minister 's description of re marks as "brief" to be somewhat humourous because I think what he's trying to do is shower us with a lot of statistics which simply don't add up really to an answer to a question.

And particularly as he starts throwing surveys and samples, I'd refer him again to a sample that was done for his own Department by a Professor Black from Brandon University, which was done for the Co mmunity Colleges division, which shows a contradictory set of facts to the ones the Mini ster's just announced.

And I find it kind of perplexing that the Minister would really ream out that long list of statistics which shows - and I quote for example that - this is a sample done ju st again in the last year of graduates of the Comm unity Colleges - and I quote from this, "the relatively high unemployment rate of this sample in the survey week of 6. 3 per cent and the relatively high incidence of unemployment for the entire post-training period of 9. 8 percent are not comparable to the normal 4. 3 unemployment rate that we have in the pro vince. 11 And then he adduces a series of facts, and I think like any study it' s subject to some qualification, to point out in particular areas - for example, in the area where students who have come into a training program with less than Grade 10 education leave the program and find employment opportunities no better than if they had not the training at all.

And it seems to be one of the conclusions of this study. Similarly, for females in the work force, that it appears that in the service field that at the time that this sample was taken the unemployment rate of graduates was 14 percent. That does not include those who are at home or babysitting or doing anything else. It's a simple rate of those who are looking for work.

And I find that the figures by this survey, which is not something I concocted, but which was done from his own departmen t, it was a survey of close to 1, 189 individuals enrolled in the three Manitoba Community Colleges, would appear to indicate , at least at first reading that the asses sment made by the Minister is really not accurate.

Furthermore, it seems to indicate some serious areas of problems that we have attempted to point out and I would like to bring those to his attention, but perhaps the Minister could first explain the apparent disparity between the sur veys he is reading, and perhaps they're selective surveys , and the one that I have in front of me which is also from his own department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Educa tion. I'm sorry, the Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Chairman, I thought maybe while the Minister was diges ting the ques tions from the Member for Fort Rouge I might a dd two or three questions to it and we might get some further figures from him.

I wonder if he could indicate at some point, the numbers he gave here I wasn't able to relate it to the overall picture, could he indicate for this item, 32 , for the Community Colleges, the total number of full-time students and the total number of part-time students, and if it's possible could he give us the numbers that are at each of the three colleges listed here in the estimate book so we can get some total picture of how many students we're dealing with.

And I think later on if he could also, when we come to Item 33, if we could get the total number of undergraduate students and the total number of graduate students, that rough breakdown, we can get some means of comparison of these two items. I wonder also under Item 32 if he can indicate this increase in the budget, which I guess is in the order of six or seven percent from last year, whether there have been any shifts out of Item 32 and into other categories, or is this six or seven percent increase in Item 32 the same basis of comparison as we can look at for last year.

It would appear that Item 33, the one next , which is universities has gone up by 25 percent as opposed to roughly six or seven percent in the community colleges division. So basically at this point looking for the means of comparison so we can see here total numbers of students in each case, full-time, part-time, and total numbers of students in Item 33, undergraduate and graduate, and part-time if you like too, und er Item 33, although I imagine it' s a little more difficult. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate the Minister 's indulgence on this. I was going to wait --(Inte rj ection)-- I thank the Honourable Member for Lakeside for having interjected in the debate in his usual spirited manner. I was going to wait for the Member for Fort Rouge to finish the line that he was pursuing

1266 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES April 14, 1975 (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) •.••• but since the questioning has taken another tack I do want to add one or two questions to those posed by my colleague from Riel, because this is the area that I was primarily concerned with and intended to ask the Minister about. That is the area of enrolment in the Community Colleges.

Whether Red River College, for example, is big enough - then of course As siniboine, it goes without saying, that I ask the same question of Ass iniboine and Keewatin Co mmunity Colleges - but particularly because it's located in a major population centre of the province, is Red River Co mmunity College big enough to do the job now that it was originally designed to do ?

Has the Minister and his department ascertained at any time what they consider to be a desirable size, a desirable target figure for a communit) college like Red River, and for the others, As siniboine and Keewatin; but of course the mathe matical formula and param eters there would naturally conform with the population areas of their regions.

The question of overcrowding at Red River has come up in conversations that I've had with a number of Red River Co mmunity College students - I'm not qualified to say definitively whether they're legitimate complaints or not and this is what I would like to ask the Minister to answer for us. Are there parts and components of Red River Co mmunity College that are overcrowded? Is the quality of education instruction, vocational training there suffering and impeded in any way because of overcrowding ?

Has his staff ever sat down and projected a desirable target size for that institution, for the different faculties and courses within that in stitution? And, of course, dependent upon the answer to those questions, are there plans for additional facilities at the college for capital additions to the plant itself, or are there plans for additional community colleges either in the Winnipeg area or anywhere in the Province of Manitoba? Are there plans for satellite comm unity colleges ?

Have we reached a stage in enrolment planning and education planning where we can now say that to guarantee a particular quality of excellence in education and training that this is as far as we should go in terms of size and no further, therefore we now are going to think in terms of building another facility somewhere else, building either satellites or whole new facilities in this area or somewhere else in the province ? Are these questions being examined by the Minister and his Department?

I think they're particularly timely because of the comments, as I say, that have been made to me about students who attend Red River Community College and who have sugg ested to me that they've found the condition of overcrowding to exist there. Whether it's critical I couldn't say , but I as sume the Minister will be able to tell us. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes , Mr. Chairman. In response to the Ho nourable Member for Fort Rouge, the study that he made reference to, one done by a Mr. Black. This study, Mr.

Chairman, was commenced in 168-69, perhaps even a bit earlier than that, and this could have been a study of the state of employment of graduates from our vocational schools under the old provincial manpower development authority that was in existence at that time. And that study commenced in 168-69 was just recently completed. And of course the figures would be dif ferent. And I should also point out that the sample that Mr.

Black used in his study were from among students deemed to have been seriously disadva ntaged and he zeroed in on those, and on those only, as opposed to taking a cross-se ction sampling of the student population - or of the graduate population really. So the studies were done of two different blocks of students from two different periods in time - two different periods in time, in each of which the employment situation differed markedly one from the other, and different types of students1and hence one could not compare one with the other.

Now, the Honourable Member for Riel wanted to know the total number of full-time, part time students and then he asked another question, are there any shifts out of Item 32 , to enable the committee to make an accurate comparison of the Estimates. So let me deal with the first question firstly. In the day programs , these would be full-time students for the fiscal year or the academic year just ended, the enrolment at Red River was 9, 984, One could say 10, 000, A MEMBER: Would these be full-time ? · MR. HANUSCHAK: Full-time students, yes, these are full-time figures.

At Assi niboine Com munity College they were 2, 231, and at Keewatin Community College they were 1, 692 or 1, 700 students.

A pril 14 , 19 75 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERS ITIES (MR . HANUSCHAK cont'd) 1267 Now I'm still dealing with full-time . The estimates for the forthcoming year , or in arriving at the estimates for the forthcoming year , we have projected an enrolment at Red River Community College, an in crease of about 400 some odd students , to 10,417 . And we 're also anticipating a slight increase at Assiniboine going up to 2, 298, 2, 300 students; and at Keewatin an increase of 100 some odd to 1, 800 students. These are full-time .

I should point out cumu lative over the 12 -month period, not at any one particular point in tim e, because honourable members will no doubt know that the courses vary in length, so you may have a higher enrol ment at some points in time than at others. For a total of day program enrolment for the three community colleges of 13, 907 for the fiscal year ended , and anticipating an increase of about 600 to 14 ,5 00 for the year '75-76 . Now , the Night School Programs .

At Red River the enrolment is 13 , OOO, and we anticipate - in fact we anticipate the same level of enrolment at night school at Red River for'75- 76 ; at Assiniboine 2,4 00, and we don't anticipate that to change any; and at Keewatin Community College we have a night school enrolment of 4, 457, which we project to increase to 5, OOO for the forthcoming year . Now , is there a shift out of Item 32 , or any shifts out of Item 32 in the estimates ? I don't believe that there are any significant shifts .

No , none other - I suppose that whatever shifts that there are of any significance would be some changes in the course programming, the dis continuation of some , but I note that, well, reduction in the number of evening courses, elimina tion of low performance courses, for example, a cooking course at The Pas, farm maintenance at Brandon , and there probably are a few others which accounts for $200 , OOO .

But I believe1 that I understand ..• but not shifts in the sense that some portions of what they have included in the program the previous year was taken out of there and placed somewhere else, not in that sense . MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Riel. MR . CRAIK: I wonder if the Minister could indicate, are the Manpower grants included here ? Is the money that comes in under the Manpower grants, does it go through the estimates here, or does that come in as a fee to the institution that doesn't show up in the estimates ? MR . HANUSCHAK: That's revenue , Mr .

Chairman; we're workingwith expenditures here . MR . CRAIK: Yes . So in that case then it will show up as an expenditure as well. MR . HANUSCHAK: That's right. I should also mention with respect to night school programs, that both Assiniboine and Keewatin Community Colleges operate a night school program out of a number of satellite centre s. For example, out of Thompson, Lynn Lake , Churchill, Swan River , will probably be part of the Keewatin Community College operation; Neepawa , Dauphin, part of Assiniboine at Brandon . I'm sorry, I missed the comment of the Honourable Member for Swan River . MR . JAMES H.

BILTON (Swan River ): I just wanted to make it perfectly plain that we're not a satellite to The Pas in Swan River . MR . HANUSCHAK: Oh, I' m well aware of that, Mr . Chairman , that Swan River is not a satellite to The Pas, but I' m merely talking about the Community College program, but not about the town , about the community itself of Swan River . The Honourable Member for Fort Garry also asked whether there is any overcrowding at our community colleges . Generally speaking no , although there may be temporary over crowding in some particular course .

But because of the fact that the popularity of various courses can vary considerably from year to year , therefore we're always faced with the prob lem and the need of shifting students around and utilizing the space that we have in the best manner possible to effectively utilize it, and also to avoid whatever overcrowding may be occasioned otherwise if we did not do that .

Now perhaps not so much at Red River Community College, because the honourable mem ber may recall that it's about a year or so ago that we opened up quite a large addition to Red River Community College, but there may be, and in fact we are looking for additional space at Assiniboine Community College, which is, you know , pretty well filled to capacity at the pre sent time and there is need for the provision of additional space for the programs that are being offered there, and for which there is a demand there . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR . SHER MAN: Well on that point , Mr .

Chairman , I would ask the Minister whether -

1268 April 14, 1975 SU PPLY - COLL EGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR . SHERMAN cont'd) ..... in your original concept of Red River Community College, it seemed to me that it was projected as a facility that would accommodate efficiently and realis tically something in the neighbourhood of 5, OOO students . I stand to be corrected on that, but this certainly is the impres sion that I have had over the years . We 're looking now at an insti tution that has become considerably swollen over that figure in terms of its enrolment, it 's hugE now .

The figures the Minister has just given us indicate that if you take the full-time students and the night students and add them together, you've got a student body virtually as big as the total student body of the University of Manitoba, that is the total student body, full-time and extension courses . So that is a very considerable size and a very much bigger student body than the 5, OOO, which was the figure that seemed to be in the back of my mind that was bandied about a decade ago.

I'm just wondering what kind , in all the research and planning, and in all the support services work that's done , and in all the task forces and studies that are undertaken . whether there is a consistent and current up-to-date examination of the enrolment problem and the facilities, requirement s, and the methods by which this never-e nding increase is going to be handled in the future, or what seems to be a never -ending increase . ·F or example, the pro jections for next year reflect a what ? - an increase of five percent, that's five percent full time at Red River Community College.

Well five percent every year compounded annually poses a problem that hopefully and presumably the Minister and his department are dealing with now , they're not waiting, they're not waiting until the student body has reached such an enormou s and unwieldy proportion that it can't be handled. Whether the original figure of 5, OOO that I' ve referred to was a legitimate and a valid one , I don 't know , but it seems to me that that was sort of the figure that was accepted as being the one that would be practical, realistic and workable.

Well, we 're way beyond that now so we have to ask the question , is the institution and are the facilities still as practical and realistic and workable? MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr . Chairman , if I may re spond to the Honourable Member from Fort Garry.

When I quoted the figure of 10, OOO, 9, 984 for the current year , going up to 10 ,4 00 for the next year, that's the total number of students, and this does not mean that at any given point in time that one would find 10 , OOO day students enrolled at Red River Community College, because some of the courses are four , five, six month s in length; over a period of a year it 'll be 10, OOO will go through, or close to 10 , OOO, 9, 900 up to the present time, a bit more over that.

But at the present ti me , at any given point in time you wouldn't find any more than about 4, 500 students enrolled at Red River Community College, which is well below just approaching the optimum size of a community college, so we still are within that limit, and I would agree with the honourable member that about 5, OOO is an optimum size for a college of that kind , designed to deliver the type of program that it is designed to deliver, and that it is within that limit. MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR . AXWORTHY : Yes, Mr .

Chairman , I wonder if we could get back to a line of ques tioning related to the basic objectives of the colleges ' program , and how it relates to the que s tion of targeting a Manpower strategy in the province to attempt to reach the group of people in the population who are kind of caught in that split level problem of unemployment or under employment , who are normally characterized by limited education and limited income, or other kinds of social or economic handicap .

And the Minister was suggesting that one of the reasons to explain the apparent disparities was that respective studies were done a period of two or three years apart, and that may well be so .

So I was wondering if the Minister to begin with could bring us up-to-date, sort of point out that we 're aiming at a target group normally called the under -employed or unemployed group in society who have usually no more than a Grade 10 edu cation attainment , and that one of the real rationales for this whole retraining, job training pro gram is to try and bring them onstream and maintain both higher income, permanency of em ployment , and higher rates of employment that they achieved before.

So I' m wondering first if the Minister could indicate at this stage as of, I suppose, 1974 figures , how the community colleges as part of that Manpower program have targeted at that specific group; and when we're talking about increasing enrolment , does the enrolment that is burgeoning or growing, include an increasing proportion of the youn.g men and women from that particular target group? I think that the percentages according to these figures were that they represent about 8 or 10 percent of the enrolment? Has that now gone up?

Is it now 15 , 20, 25 percent who are now being moved into the community colleges to attain higher training ? And

April 14, 1975 1269 SU PPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR . AXWORTHY cont'd) ••... secondly, normally is there a higher percentage going into it, but when they come out of it are they now achieving a much higher rate of employment than they previously had, a higher rate of income, longer term tenure in employment , higher stability, employment characteristics?

In other words, is the system not only attracting or recruiting a much larger percentage of men and women from that group in the population, but are we also ensuring that through this vocation or retraining program that they're able then to succeed in a higher occupational focus? The second kind of questioning I'd like to raise with the Minister at the same point is , to what degree in trying to achieve the objectives of this retraining are we providing really a training program for the rest of Canada ?

Again according to the study done by Professor Black it indicates that, I think, 15 percent again of the graduates from the community colleges emig rate outside the province, and particularly those students who are paid for by provincial funds as opposed to Ca nada Manpower contributions , which are 100 percent, or the other kinds of federal support programs.

And the question would be then, it comes back, and I think that the question is important, we 've been trying to gain from the Minister of Labour some assessment of what the real employment characteristics of Manitoba are, and whether really in fact we are importing a lot of our employment problems elsewhere and simply sort of using our retraining programs, and then having people leave the province so it doesn 't provide any kind of real accurate appraisal as to what is the actual state of the employment picture in Manitoba.

I'm wondering if the Minister then could provide answers to those two lines of questioning . MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to commence with the last question that the honourable member posed, you know, are we merely a training ground for the rest of Canada and not for our own nee ds .

Ea rlier I did indicate to the honourable member , and he may recall, that within the Career Occupational Education Program, which includes practically the entire bundle of various courses other than the ABE that are offered at our community colleges , in the survey that we did seven or eight months ago of the 88 . 1 percent who were employed, 92 percent of them had found work in Manitoba --(Interjection) --92 percent, so four out of five at least, including the total number of graduates, or of those who had attended our community colleges, had found work in Manitoba, and 90 percent of them, and not 90 of the 92 , but 90 of 92 of 88 - I don 't want to confuse honourable members with statistics - but of the same 88 per cent, 90 percent of them had found work in training related occupations.

And I should also mention that, you know , I spoke of, in a sense , Outreach Centres in various parts of the province, but we also are moving into the downtown area and near the environment wherein the students live, Selkirk Avenue and St. Boniface, are two locations where we do offer community college programs .

And even though the honourable member did express some displeasure at having, you know , statistics being rhymed off, that there's no other way of responding to some of the ques tions that the honourable member is posing, and I must refer to statistics, and I just want to indicate that since '73- 74, looking at the last two years and the estimates for the fiscal year that we're dealing with today in the pre-employment courses there' s been a 15 percent increase, and in the pre-employment courses , that there you would have many being trained who require some of the basic training in the development of various skills for work .

Apprenticeship, an increase of 32 percent . Teacher education , an increase of 89 percent; and here in this teacher education, vocational and busine ss education courses and the like for which there is a demand in our extension community services, and these are the programs that do go out into the coun tryside and are geared and designed to accommodate as large a number of the population as we possibly can . In the agricultural courses, over that same period of time , the three -year period of time, there's been an inc rease of 13 percent . Apprenticeship, an increase of 119 percent.

In the night school program , an increase of 18 percent; and various other special courses an increase of - well 59 percent.

So every effort is being made to reach the people of the Province of Manitoba in providing them with a type of a training program that they want and the record indicates that there is a demand for the development of those skills because they acquire skills that do become market able, because the very very large majority of them do - not only do they find work within a relatively short period of time after the completion of their studies but also find work in occu pation areas very closely related to those that they did study .

1270 April 14, 197: SUPPLY - COLLEGE S AND UNIV ER SITIES MR . CHAIRMAN (Mr. Walding) : The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr . Chairman, just to conclude some remarks on this line of ques tioning . I regret in part that the Minister did not answer perhaps the most important part of that question, that is what is the results of it, and while he did indicate there was 15 percent increase in the pre-employment program and 32 percent increase in apprenticeship, it would have been preferable to have those in hard numbers, because, you know, 15 percent of what is the result .

But without getting into that point, the primary question that we want to raise is this . That within the Province of Ma_nitoba at the present time, particularly in certain areas of the employment market in Winnipeg and in certain centres such as Thompson and Brandon, the unemployment rates of men and women between the age brackets of 18 to 24 , as much as we can make them, are now ranging in the area of 10 , 12, perhaps higher percentage points .

That the numbers of people who are still dropping out of the high school system and are not enrolled in any kind of retraining program don't seem to have made any appreciable changes over the last five years .

And what it simply means is that we 're building up in the core of this city and other parts of the city a large number, and a growing number ,of young men and women who no longer have the skills to compete in a much more complex employment market and that they become the source of a great deal of personal anguish for themselves as well as a great deal of cause of concern to the rest of the community, because they become the source of problems in crime and problems in social welfare situatio ns, and it doesn't appear, as much as the Minister may be offering some reassurance in percentage terms, that the kind of manpower programs that we are devising at the present moment, or operating, appear geared to their needs.

And that I can compliment the Minister in terms of describing an Outreach program on Selkirk Avenue . I think that certainly is welcome and certainly long overdue . But it still raises the question for me whether the method itself is right . Whether the practice of enrolling stu dents in a formal institutional set-up requiring classroom contact on an ongoing basis is really the proper or most effective way of reaching what is that hard core of unemployed or under employed people who - short terms of employment, low income, become one of the real sources of this instability in our society .

And that would be the primary question, is that we are I think putting out, from 1971 figures, about 2, 500 to$3, OOO per student enrolled in the Post-Secondary Vocational Training Program . I think it's about an average, that that's about right . The Minister may correct that . That's a substantial amount of money, per student, and would appear to me that one of the questions we should be examining is whether that amount of money could be applied in more effective ways .

In looking at the results that would be achieved from it, the $3, OOO you spend supporting a student in one of the community colleges is $3, OOO you don't have for a form of work-study program or providing incentive for just jobs, period, that they might have in any event. I guess that is really the problem, is whether in part we are using our institutions, and this includes both universities and community colleges, as really I suppose incubators to keep wa rm a number of young people who simply can't, or aren't able to properly make it in the job market because there isn't a job market for them .

Which then comes back to one of the hearts of the kind of issues we've been trying to raise at least from this group, and that is the lack of real manpower employment planning in the province at the present moment. And I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that in examining these, while the Minister does provide the statistics, it would be certainly more helpful to members of this side of the House to almost have a more qualitative and evaluative assessment of the actual achievement of the present structure of programs that are under his jurisdiction in achieving a goal of trying to reach the group of people who are not able to survive by their own resources.

And secondly, whether in fact the separation of all these programs, some in the Department of Labour, the apprenticeship programs, the educational programs under your jurisdiction, federal pro grams, certain programs in the private industry field, are really simply because they are so fragmented and so disjointed and so seeming without some rhyme or reason, able to function in a controlled way. And certainly one thing that struck me, Mr.

Chairman, is that there didn't seem to be any connection between the retraining programs being offerred to the secondary school system that is also in the Minister's jurisdiction and those connected in with the community college program or with the manpower programs; they seem to get lost in the shuffle somehow. And 5

\.pril 14, 1975 127 1 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR . AXWORTHY cont•d) •.... that again causes a lot of slippage in the system. I guess that•s really the primary concern, that we•re investing very heavy amounts of public dollars in trying to do a retread job and I•m not so sure we•re being very successful in getting the proper use of our money - and the proper use would be to give these people self-sufficiency and occupational tenure in some way that they can look forward to a career or a profession that will give them a fair return for the rest of their lives .

I think part of the slippage is caused simply because the mechanics are at fault; that we simply have all kinds of manpower programs running around in disjointed fashion, And even though the Minister of Labour, I suppose in some way, a coincidental announcement, said he had set up a Cabinet committee on manpower subsequent to our importuning in this House something they done, still doesn•t really go far enough. --(Interjection)-- Well, whatever happened, that•s when the announcement came. We can only judge by coincidence, Mr. Chair man.

And the reason again comes back to the fact that we haven•t had declared to us really by anybody in this Ministry of whatever portfolio, and we•re trying to find out which portfolio is responsible, where is the manpower program of this province? Letrs see it in all its parts and let•s see how the parts hang together as a whole . Letrs see a description of it. Let1 s talk about objectives and goals. Le t' s see what we•re trying to achieve over a 3-year or a 5- year period to cut into that unemployed group or that under-employed group.

Let1s see the goals and the strategy that would achieve it and then we have something to measure against, because it's pretty difficult to keep coming back here year after year and saying , well what have you achieved and we get a few statistics and we get some percentage figures, when we don•t have any standard to say, in 1969 the Minister, whomever he may be, responsible for manpower.

Thatrs probably what we should start off is by, sort of, getting some of those eager fellows from the backbenches or converting one of the older members into a manpower --(Interjection)-- no, not a new one, I think therers a lot of, sort of irrelevant kinds of portfolios sitting there now that they could be brcught together in some kind of inte grated fashion. So that yourd set a measure and say, 11 Therers what werregoing to try to achieve . Here•s the means by which werre going to do it.

Here•s how we•re going to combine the efforts of community colleges, secondary schools, universities and the private market, the apprentice ship market and so on, to provide a co-crcinated approach, and that•s where we1re going to end up 3 years from now, 5 years from now, 10 years from now." We have no bench marks to measure it by, so we simply have to go by sort of balloon figures that are thrown up in the air every year hoping that they•ll sort of, someone will take a shot at them, but they don1t really get to the real issue, is are we really achieving anyt hing for the $20 million we spend here and the millions of dollars we spend in secondary education and the even more millions we1re spend ing in university education.

I suppose that really, Mr. Chairman, is the brunt of what has been displayed this evening, is that again we simply find one more isolated and lonely description of blossoming achieve ment in the field of manpower policy but standing isolated and naked with no connection to any thing else; and as a result, it really isnrt a policy, it's a set of programs in search of a policy and I think that they should start the other way around. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, as I listened to the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge it became apparent to me that perhaps if the honourable member were to peruse the es timates of this department he would find on the second page under Resolution 34, an item entitled 11 Special Projects, 11 and within, when we come to it, we would be dealing with exactly the types of matters and issues that the honourable member, I believe, is referring to .

And that is the individual who, for any one of a variety of reasons, may not come forth on his own initiative by whichever way, either directly to a community college or via a manpower centre, and thus eventually get himself enrolled in a community college for upgrading, retraining, or whatever. And Irm thinking of some of our native people, our Metis people, and think of people newly arrived in Canada, others who may be disadvantaged in some fashion or another . And, Mr.

Chairman, I would not wish to violate our rules by debating that particular resolution but I just want to assure the honourable member that when we do reach Resolution No . 34 and when we talk about Special Projects that the honourable member will have ample opportunity to con sider programs of that type that are designed to reach out to specific groups within our society. Now the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge made a couple of other points: One, that man power training seems to be some sort of a fragmented, disjointed program. Well it isn•t that A

1272 April 14, 1971 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. HANUSCHAK conttd) •• •.. at all. And he made reference to the fact that some comes under the jurisdiction of the Department of Labour and some under the jurisdiction of the De partment of Education and Community Colleges. But it isn't that way at all. The Department of Education program is designed primarily for the delivery of an education program to those of public school age, to those who are normally at the age group ranging from kindergarten to Grade 12 .

Altho ugh itt s true that in conjunction with that program in an attempt to enrich it, we may also have achieved in doing something else, in providing a meaningful manpower train ing and development program by enabling inilividuals to eventually find employment within the school system and make a valuable contribution toward the enrichment of that educational pro gram, But that is not the prime responsibility of the education department . Itts true that the Department of Labour is also involved. The honourable member made reference to apprenticesh ip.

It is the De partment of Labour, various branches and agencies within it that prescribe the requirements that one must meet to work as a tradesman in any of the indenture trades, prescribe the licencing requirements for various occupations and so forth , But insofar as a training program is concerned, even for the apprentices, the training program other than that "Ml.ich they obtain working on the job is offered by the community colleges and not by the Department of Labour. And there are other departments too that also have a very vital interest and are very much involved in manpower development and traini ng .

No doubt the Department of Health and Social Development has a very close and keen interest in this whole area, and so does the Department of Northern Affairs, just to mention two other departments.

But through our Manpower Committee of Cabinet there is co-ordination of all the depart ments that are interested in and involved in manpower training and development programs and policy decisions and guidelines are made at that level subject to approval by Cabinet and then it becomes the responsibility of each of the various departments to do what each department' s role and function is to do with respect to manpower training and development .

And when it comes to offering a type of training that we are geared up to to offer, that we're capable of offering, then the delivery of that type of a training program becomes our responsibility, and it is our responsibility and not that of any other department. But it is all part of an organized, co-ordinated, co-operative effort. MR . GREEN: Committee rise. MR . CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. The Honourable House Leader, MR . GREEN: Mr . Chairman, if the Honourable Member for Brandon had something that he feels he must get off his chest at the moment, I wasn't intending to shut him off. MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: What I have on my chest is not of that pressing importance "th at I can• t wait until tomorrow. MR . GREEN: Committee rise, MR . CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. Call in the Speaker, Mr. Speaker the Committee has considered certain resolutions, ask me to report same and ask leave to sit again . IN SESSION MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vit al. MR, WALDING: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Churchill that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Urban Affairs that the House is now adjourned. I remind the honourable members of the Municipal Affairs Committee tomorrow, because there was no notice sent out. Municipal Affairs at 10 o'clock. MR . DEPUTY SPEAKER: Motion for the House to adjourn . Agreed ? (Ag reed) House is accordingly adjourned and will stand adjourned until 2:30 p. m. tomorrow afterno on . 5

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-2-46
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Volume / chapter	30th 2nd hansardpdf 46.pdf
Language	en
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