Manitoba Hansard — 19 May 1993 (Sitting 66, 35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-66

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Third Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 66 • 1:30 p.m., WEDNESDAY, MAY 19,1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osbome Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Ain Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River Rossmere Rupertsland PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

317 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 19, 1993 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Paulette Patenaude, Lorraine Gosselin, Simone Lacasse and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. Mr. Oscar Lath lin (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petitio n of Allen H. Ripley, Lynn Vanbeselaere, Shirley Slack and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. *** Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Steve W. Mamchuk, Peter Wagner, William Wagner and others requesting the Manitoba Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) to consider conducting a plebiscite of Manitoba farmers as soon as possible on the issue of removing barley from the jurisdiction of the Wheat Board. *** Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Gary Williams, Jackie Reid, Kay Smart and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the '93-94 budget. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Debra Hall, Wynne Murray, Doug Brown and others requesting the Minister of Health (M r. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have revi ewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Hickes).

It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed) Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 19 93 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indi genous People: a new partnership"; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and

WHEREAS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as: assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, education, recreation and cultural programming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy; WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba. *** Mr.

Speaker: I have rev iewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Friesen). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed) Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and

WHEREAS over 1 ,000 young adults are currently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade their education through the Student Social Allowances Program; and

WHEREAS Winnipeg already has the highest number of people on welfare in decades; and

317 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 19 , 1993

WHEREAS the provincial government has already changed social assistance rules resulting in increased welfare costs for the City of Winnipeg; and

WHEREAS the provincial government is now proposi ng to el iminate the Student Social Allowances Program; and

WHEREAS eliminating the Student Social Allowances Program will result in more than a thousand young people being forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full-time education, resulting in more long-term costs for city taxpayers. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the Student Social Allowances Program. * (1 335) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mrs . Loui se Dac qua y (C hairperson of Committees): Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the First Quarterly Report of the Manitoba Telephone System. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 36- The Highway Traffic Amendment Act Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Bill 36, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Wang canada Contract Status Report Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition ): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. The issue of Wang computers has been raised in this Chamber before.

The Premier, of course, in 19 89 announced an agreement where the government would spend $4 million and Wang computers would create 50 direct jobs, $23 million worth of investments and 22 additional jobs later on. In the 1990 election, this was such a positive development that the Premier used this as an example of his government's so-called success on job creation, success that was written more in invisible ink than it was in real jobs. Unfortunately, the project did not come to Manitoba, the jobs did not come to Manitoba, and the government penalized Wang computers by $2.5 million.

The government subsequently announced that they would take that penalty in terms of economic development that would be announced in the community of Dauphin by way of Vital Statistics. Mr. Speaker, we have been informed a letter was sent to Dauphin informing the people of Dauphin that the Vital Statistics branch will not be relocated to Dauphin. The entire program, at this point, is being reviewed as to computer automation and potential costs of upgrading the equipment. I would like to ask the Premier: What is the status of the jobs and the Wang computer situation? Hon. Gary Fllrnon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, the member, I know, gleefully likes to take advantage of any bad news that he can with respect to corporations which are having financial difficulties. That is fair ball. We know exactly where they stand on job creation and investment. That is, they will drive it out as quickly as they can. That has been the New Democratic platform as long as we have sat in this House. He does relatively accurately in his

preamble portray the fact that we did exercise a penalty from Wang corporation because they did not meet the job creation targets they were expected to by way of the original agreement. That penalty was to be exercised by way of accepting technology services from Wang to the value of $2.1 million, I am told. That is the current status. The government has a variety of projects that it is investigating whereby

May 19 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 73 Wang will provide the services and technology to the tune of $2.1 million. I will take as notice the remainder of the question as to where that stands and what services and technology have been received to this point. VItal Statistics Computerization Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the government in 1992 announced that the services and penalty would be exercised by having Vital Statistics being automated by Wang with an untendered contract. We are now informed that this will not take place.

Can the Premier advise us on the status of the decentralized decision for Vital Statistics to Dauphin, and the status of the automation? Is Wang going to perform this function as announced by the government in public, or is it not? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the one thing I know is that the Wang corporation is committed to provide us with the services to the tune of $2.1 million. That much I know continues to be committed.

Whether or not those services are provided by way of an initiative in Dauphin is another matter which I will again take as notice and bring the response back to the member. * (13 40) Wang canada Contract Penalty Agreement Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the govern ment announced this, I guess, about two weeks after it announced the expansion of the jobs in The Pas in March of 19 89. It is now four years later that this contract was signed by the government, with the penalties. It is four years after they breached the original deal, the second deal, the third deal.

They announced another rejigging of the deal in January of '92. It is another 15 months after that point. I know the government is thankful that this company spent $1 8,000 advertising the great environment of Manitoba under the government during the election campaign in 1990, but when will the government colle ct on the money that is owed to the people of Manitoba in terms of penalties that are four years overdue? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I can tell you that this is a good question because it shows a contrast between what we have done vis-a-vis our negotiations and what the New Democrats did.

The New Democrats, in providing similar support to businesses that were going to be presumably locating in Manitoba or starting up in Manitoba throughout the '80s, provided no penalties and no ability for the taxpayer to recoup any investment. We had dozens and dozens of companies that the New Democrats put money into, hard-earned taxpayers' money, in which they got absolutely zero return. In fact, it was all just simply squandered, as those businesses did not create jobs and went out of business.

We indeed will ensure that Wang provides the services and does in fact repay that, unlike New Democrats who had no penalties and just squandered the money. Health Care System Transportation Issues Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, on April 2, the Manitoba pre hospital professional association wrote to the Mini ster of Health concerning serious issues facing the ambulance services in Manitoba in light of the fact that the Motor Transport Board is hearing a case which could alter the course of ambulance delivery in the province of Manitoba.

The minister has not replied to that letter, and this morning he refused to meet with the association. Will the minister commit to meet with this organization prior to the Motor Transport Board hearing this case on June 2? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I offered to representatives of that group, to meet with my ambulance division people this afternoon. I am not certain whether they intend to carry out that invitation. Mr. Chomlak: Mr.

Speaker, why is the minister refusing to meet with this group, since his own officials that he told this group to meet with have said they only deal with regulator y matters and not policy matters, and this is a policy decision to be made at the policy level by the minister and his colleagues? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, often in the development of policy, we attempt to rely on advice from expert groups in the case where we are attempting to come to grips with changes in the

31 74 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 19 , 19 93 health care system, and quite often, the final individuals who provide advice into new policy development are the senior staff in my department. That is, Sir, after all, why we retain them, why we rely on their expertise, and it is through those individuals that policy changes, if any, made by this government are often first recommended. Hence the suggestion of the appropriate meeting with them. Mr. Chomlak: My final supplementary: Since the minister is refusing to meet with this organization, Mr.

Speaker, will the minister at least make public a study that was supposed to be completed last July by Jean Fawcett [phonetic] that looked at interfacility patient transfers, so this organization and all the public of Manitoba will know what the ramifications are for this kind of service being offered in rural Manitoba? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I will attempt to see whether that study has been completed by the individual as outlined by my honourable friend and respond accordingly. *

(1345) Health Care System Waiting Lists Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, the Fraser Institute released the results of the study of waiting lists in all 1 0 provinces. There are good things and bad things in this report about waiting lists in Manitoba. For urgent cardiovascular treatment, we are the best in the country, and that is a great improvement for the last year. On the other hand, in the areas of orthopedic and eye surgery, the waiting list is nearly the worst in the country.

However, we are the fourth largest in spending on health care in this country. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health: When will the Minister of Health use all possible measures outlined in the Health Action Plan to make sure the waiting list in all these areas is decreased? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the issue of waiting lists is one that from time to time is observed by-and I believe it was the Fraser Institut e, again, in which they made observations approximately 15 months to 18 months ago. Mr.

Speaker, it is the very issue of waiting lists and the prioritiza tion, if you will, between physicians with admission privileges to a number of hospitals that we are attempting to provide some greater clarity and guidance through investigation by physicians and other experts in the field. To date, Sir, I have not received the wisdom of their advice in terms of patient management on waiting lists in at least one of the areas that my honourable friend is expressing the concerns of outside observers. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Speaker, the Health Action Plan created a study review that was supposed to have a report due by November of 1992. That was supposed to help decrease waiting lists. Can the minister tell us when we will have that report so waiting lists can be decreased? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, that is what I am anticipating, and I cannot give my honourable friend a time frame in which that committee will provide my office with its report and any recommendations. Centralization Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, one of the ways to decrease the waiting period is to have hospitals of excellence.

Can the minister tell this House when the final decision is going to be made as to which hospital is going to perform what kind of surgery that will help, according to the Health Action Plan? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, in a number of program areas, there are varying stages of progress in terms of consolidation of surgical and other services carried out in our acute care sector. The one area of surgical excellence which is closest to decision making is ophthalmology.

The others range in status, and some of them probably will not report until at least later on this summer, possibly late fall. Brandon General Hospital Mammography Services Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I also have a question for the Minister of Health. The American Cancer Society has reviewed the Canadian study on breast cancer and maintains that regardless of that Canadian study, breast tumors are found and cured in younger women. lt stands by

May 19 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 317 5 its position that screening does save lives of women over 50 years of age. Women in the Westman area still have to wait eight months for mammography tests at the Brandon General Hospital, compared to only 10 days at St. Boniface and at the Health Sciences Centre. That wait, Mr. Speaker, could be fatal for those women. Will the minister now reconsider his position and provide the necessary funds to the Brandon General Hospital to remove this serious discrimination against the women of Westman? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, let me slightly clarify my honourable friend's position about the waiting time for an elective mammography, and that is, the circumstance in western Manitoba, an elective mammography takes upwards of eight months to achieve. However, Mr. Speaker, that cannot be so quickly linked, as my honourable friend wanted to do in his

preamble, with endangering wo men's lives, because the physicians in western Manitoba who determine whether a woman would benefit from a diagnostic mammography versus an elective one can have their patient access the service in western Manitoba within days. It is a professional judgment of the physicians in western Manitoba which, quite frankly, Sir, is appropriate because who better to judge when someone should access a diagnostic service than physicians in whom we invest many years of professional study and expertise around the issue? Sir, I say to my honourable friend that any woman judged in western Manitoba by her physician to need a mammography will receive same in days. *

(1350) Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, I just point out that the National Cancer Institute in the United States estimates that deaths from breast cancer could be cut by one-third if women had a regular annual mammogram, a regular annual screening test. So, Mr. Speaker, ! want to ask the minister further: Would he take into consideration the fact that Westman has a higher percentage of women over 55 than does the province as a whole? The province as a whole has 23.5 percent of the female population over 55 years of age,

whereas in Westman it is as high as 28.8 percent in 1992. Certainly, the risk of breast cancer rises with age, Mr. Speaker, and I would ask the minister, therefore, if he would reconsider and take that matter into consideration. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, that is exactly why a year and a half, two years ago, we brought together the best experts in Manitoba in terms of the issue of breast cancer in women, to provide government with guidance on how we can best assure that women receive the appropriate early detection services. Now, Mr. Speaker, this issue is very much fraught with two sides of opinion.

My honourable friend quotes from a study. I will quote from another study. Bethesda, Maryland, United States: New analysis of data from around the world has failed to show that women under 50 benefit from mammograms, confirming a Canadian study published late last year. Mr. Speaker, that is why we have tried as best possible to be guided by Manitoba experts who review all literature-this, my honourable friend's study and many others to try to guide government in the best public policy possible. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I do not know how you can measure the value of the lives of women. Layoffs Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I have a question related to Brandon General Hospital. Will this Minister of Health confirm that the Brandon General Hospital has had to lay off 20 permanent and 1 0 term employees because of cutbacks in the funding of this government to the Brandon General Hospital? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm that.

If my honourable friend wants to get into the issues of Brandon General Hospital, I look forward to Estimates, because as we go through the Estimates process, it can be demonstrated that this government has been more sensitive to the needs of western Manitoba, the service provision in Brandon General Hospital.

31 76 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 19 , 19 93 We did not go underground when we made tough decisions of bed closures like my honourable friend from Brandon East did when he sat around the cabinet in 19 87 and mandated the closure of beds in Brandon Hospital, without consultation, without discussion, and then would not show up to face the- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Ami Thorstelnson Property Holdings-Foreclosure Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, my questions are to the Premier (Mr. Rlmon).

On May 17 , the Premier stated that his chairman of the PC Manitoba Fund, Arni Thorsteinson, would pay back over $6 million that the provincial government was forced to sue him for in the Court of Queen's Bench. It seems that this is one of the longest foreclosures in history. Why did it take three years for this government to attempt to recover the money owed by Mr. Thorsteinson? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr.

Speaker, firstly, let me say to my honourable friend that in any foreclosure of any property, public housin g polic y that has been produced incidentally, this was introduced by the former government, these two particular projects. Notwithstanding that, we would not immediately foreclose the minute somebody is one month in arrears in rent. We would wait for a reasonable period of time, four or five months, six months, somewhere in that neighbourhood.

During that period of time and for the ensuing time, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, the fe deral government Crown corporation, attempted a mortgage workout agreement with the owners of those two buildings. They worked for a considerable period of time attempting to find out if they could come up with the workout to salvage those two buildings. Mr. Speaker, they were not successful. In Novembe r of 19 92, Manitoba Housing was inst ructed by CMHC, our in surer, to begin foreclosure proceedings, which we did. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is: How long did Mr.

Thorsteinson and companies continue to collect the rents from these properties after they stopped making the mortgage payments? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, the matter here is between Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, which is the insurer of Manitoba Housing in these projects, and the owners. They attempted over a protracted period of time, trying to find some method, some way, as they did with the building in North Portage, as they did in other cases, where they were attempting to find a method of ensuring that the buildings continue and that some form of a mortgage workout is arrived at.

That is what they were doing for that length of time. *

(1355) Mr.Maloway: Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary to the same minister is that he did not answer the question. The question was: How long did Mr. Thorsteinson continue to collect the rents from these properties after he stopped making the mortgage payments? That was the question. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, I think my honourable friend is having difficulty in understanding how the mortgage process works. The fact of the matter is a mortgage was granted by Manitoba Housing, insured by the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

Canada Mortgage and Housing, as the insurance company, as it has every right to do, gives the instructions to the insured party. That is us. Mr. Speaker, they gave us instructions to await an attempt at workout and then came to us and said in November of 19 92, begin the foreclosure process. That is what we did. We are now in possession of the building. Prairie Economic Participation Government Position Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. Mr.

Speaker, today in Winnipeg a representative from the Canada West Foundation is in the city, discussing and talking to Winnipeggers and Manitobans about the virtues of prairie economic co-operation. This is an idea that has been around for some time. Mr. Speaker, in Mr. Parson's opinion and in the Canada West Foundation's, there are $5 billion in savings to be had by the western provinces in moving toward a more co-operative approach in the delivery of government services.

The last time I asked about this to the Premier, three weeks ago, he gave it short shrift and indicated some disdain for the Canada West Foundation's predictions.

May 19 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 77 Now, Mr. Speaker, my question for the minister: Is he prepared today to tell the House why he is not looking at prairie economic co-operation as a way of saving tax dollars, so that we can actually have a chance of balancing th� Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, firstly, I reject totally the

preamble of the member for St. James, and as usual, he totally misrepresents what has been said in the previous discussion on the issue. I did not reject the concept whatsoever. In fact, I said to him-and I did not treat it with disdain-this is a matter that I had been working on from the day that I first met with western Premiers on May 17, 1988. The reality is, it was one of the three major topics of the Western Premiers' Conference for Canmore that was just cancelled.

The member opposite should inform himself on these issues if he is going to ask questions in the House, and then he would be better equipped to ask those questions. Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is the ballpark figures that have been issued as to what savings might accrue make assumptions that go anywhere from shared services and co-operative actions all the way to total inte gration, political and administrative integration of the tour western provinces.

I think that taking the individual provinces and making a collective government of them is probably something that is not feasible in the eyes of most western Canadians, inclu ding most Manitobans. So there are various aspects to the issue, but first and foremost, I will say that we will examine any potential avenue to be $ible to co-operate in the delivery of services, to be able to provide for a lower cost of operation, and therefore lower taxes to our people. That we will look at willingly and enthusiastically, as we always have, Mr. Speaker. *

(1400) Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, no one is talking about the political unity that the Premier is talking about. What I am talking about and what my question is about is economic co-operation, similar to the things that the rest of the world is doing. My question for the Premier: He has shown some disdain for the figures put forward by the Canada West Foundation. ! would ask him, given that he has been working on this, as he says, for all these years, can he table in the House his predictions and the Minister of Finance's (Mr.

Manness) predictions as to the gains that are there to be made by successfully moving towards prairie economic co-operation? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I have not shown disdain for the figures. I have sought to find out the basis on which the figures were put forward. Now, he cannot give me that basis, and from the information we have received from consultations with the Canada West Foundation-because I sat down with Dr. David Elton just about two weeks ago in my office in the Legislature to discuss this very study. He could not put forward the assumptions in the basic underpinnings of those figures.

So I have to question then, what are the figures based on? Where are the savings going to accrue? If the member tor St. James cannot give them to me, then I think I have every right to question the validity of his assumptions. Mr. Edwards: I suggestthe Premier read the report. Education System Mr. Paul Edwards (St.

James): My final question for the Premier, let me give a specific example: Is the Premier prepared to look at the joint purchasing power and the savings to be made in the Department of Education alone of $600 million, by getting together with the western provinces in purchasing the supplies and services that are needed in our education systems? They say $600 million. Is this Premier saying- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I guess we would all have to know whether or not that purchasing is going to take place in Edmonton or Calgary or Regina or Vancouver or Stettler or Winnipeg to know whether or not it is in our interest to enter into this. It is absolutely foolish for him to make these kinds of assumptions and assume that automatically Manitoba is going to gain by this kind of thing. We have seen this happen before. The western provinces already in the area of education are co-operating vis-a-vis curriculum. They are co-operating vis-a-vis the sharing of post-secondary education facilities in the allocating of students.

For instance, we have agreements to send students to Saskatoon to take veterinary

31 78 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 19 , 19 93 medicine. Saskatchewan in turn sends students to our province to take physio and occupational therapy. There are other areas in which we have co-operative agreements developed. We have the fire college sharing of facilities. We have the sharing of facilities in the area of drug and alcohol rehabilitation for people. We have the sharin�r. Speaker, the member opposite laughs at all these things because he is trying to make some sort of political Brownie points for his leadership campaign.

The fact of the matter is, we are committed and we are doing things towards this workout of economic co-operation. Red River Community College Enrollment Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, in the Canadian context, Manitoba's community colleges serve a very small percentage of our population, and the numbers seem to be getting smaller. In 1992 , for example, there were 1,15 2 fewer students at Red River Community College than there were in 19 89.

Will the Minister of Education tell us what her projections are for enrollments-! am using the overall figure-at Red River Community College for next year as a result both of her government's policy and the withdrawal of federal funds? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, as the member knows, our colleges have now moved to governance, and they are now able to negotiate for a market-driven training, for instance.

I understand that they are in the process-Red River Community College very specifically is now in a negotiation process and when they finish their negotiation process, then we will know more about what federal money will also be available to our community colleges and then what the enrollment may be in total. Adult Basic Education Programs Alternative Programs Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, could the minister explain why adult basic education enrollments at Red River have been consistently reduced in the same period by nearly 300?

Will she outline for the House what the alternatives are for such students, when her government has eliminated or cut so many other programs with similar purposes-student social allowances or New Careers, for example? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, again, as I have said, there have been programs which have previously been funded in the majority by the federal government, and those programs are now being looked at by the community colleges to see if they can access direct fundin g from the federal government.

In addition, as the member knows, in terms of funding for ACCESS programs, for instance, there also has been a complete decline in the area of federal funding,

whereas our provin ce has continued to support funding. I have also explained to the member a continuum of programming which is available to students from literacy programming, high school programming available within home divisions. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, could the minister explain how her policy-and it is a policy, it is a consistent policy of reducing opportunities for people who have not completed their secondary education. Could she tell us how that benefits the Manitoba economy or Manitoba families when the unemployment figures for that group range in the 19 to 22 percent range consistently every year?

Mrs. Vodrey: First of all, I would point to the assistance that we are providing students who are currently in the secondary programs so that those students are able to successfully complete their program and that they are able to successfully complete their program in a sequential manner. We also co-operate with the Government of Canada in terms of stay-in-school initiatives.

For those students who wish to return to school, there are programs available within the home division to allow students to complete the high school programs, and then we continue to offer assistance for students who wish to proceed into the post-secondary institutions. The Pas Health Complex Layoffs Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, next month over 15 LPNs at The Pas Health Complex will be laid off and residents of The Pas are rightly concerned that these layoffs are not cost-efficient and in fact will result in higher costs for the complex, while at the same time providing less services to the people.

May 19 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 31 79 Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) to advise the House, when did she first learn of the layoffs? After becoming aware of the layoffs, what action did she take to co-ordinate her response to the layoffs with other government ministries? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I believe my honourable friend was asking a question about The Pas Health Complex and some of the initiatives around staffing restructuring that they are undergoing right now.

The knowledge I have to date of the initiative as proposed by The Pas Health Complex is that the new staffing mix that they propose will comply with the guidelines that we require to be followed in acute care hospitals and will not compromise patient care or quality of patient care. Mr. Lathlln: Mr. Speaker, I will table for the minister, over 2,000 petitions from residents of The Pas protesting that decision of this government. Mr. Speaker, my second question is to the Minister of Education and Training.

Is the minister aware that these people who have been thrown off their jobs will be unable to find other employment in The Pas, even though most of these people have worked in that field for most of the time, and, in fact, all their working lives? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I just want to correct my honourable friend, in terms of one of the assertions he made in his

preamble. Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend indicated that it was a government decision in terms of the staffing patterns at The Pas Health Complex. As with all acute care hospitals in Manitoba, their governance is by a board and senior management. The Province of Manitoba provides, through the generosity of the tax system and taxpayers of Manitoba, global budgets to those facilities. Mr. Speaker, in achieving goals of health care, boards throughout the length and breadth of Manitoba make the decision on staffing, hirings, layoffs and mix.

So my honourable friend's allegation that somehow government or I initiated this process in The Pas is absolutely false and shows a lack of understanding- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. * (1 410) Mr. Lath lin: Mr. Speaker, my final question is again directed to the Minister of Education and Training. Could the minister advise the House if she has any alternative plans for those people who have been thrown out of their jobs in The Pas, because right now the only option left to those people is unemployment insurance, welfare, and, in fact, having to move out of The Pas to find employment elsewhere?

What plans does she have? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, in any of these decisions where individuals are affected by layoffs, as is the instance cited by my honourable friend, those cir cumstances are very regrettable for the individuals involved. ! do not think anyone, certainly in this government or at the board or administrative level of the facilities making those decisions, takes any particular joy in making these kinds of decisions. Mr.

Speaker, as much as possible, whenever layoffs are part of the restructuring within the hospitals, every effort is made on redeployment and offering retraining where appropriate within the health care system and within other funded institutions of health care. Child and Family Services Reduced Workweek Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, this Friday is the first day that Child and Family Services workers will be unable to properly meet the needs of our province's children as a matter of government policy.

Because of this government's policy of workweek reduction and the concern that it will adversely affect the safety of Manitoba children, this Friday, Child and Family Services workers will be rallying on the steps of the Legislature instead of providing services to children. My question for the minister is: What is the impact of the four-day workweek on the children and families of Manitoba who rely on Child and Family Services and who cannot plan their emergencies according to this government's schedule? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, as I have indicated to the member before, and we had some discussion of this in Estimates, the board chairs and the executive dire ctors of those agencies take their responsibilities very seriously. They do have staffing scenarios that include weekend s and long weekends. In my discussions with the board chairs and with the executive directors, they are prepared to meet

318 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 19 , 1993 that challenge and have the appropriate staffing in place. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, this weekend, regular CFS workers will be unavailable for four consecutive days. Will the minister explain to this House and to hmilies in Manitoba how this is not a reduction of services and if he feels it is fair to put children on hold for four consecutive days? Mr. GIIIeshammer: Mr.

Speaker, the member does not seem to understand that emergency services are always in place, 24 hours a day, every day of the year, that they work through regular holidays at Christmastime, and the professional staff of those agencies put in place the emergency services that are necessary. Mr. Martindale: How can the minister assure the House and Manitobans that with less staff on the weekend, children at risk will not be not looked after and their needs will be taken care of? What plan is in place to make sure that all emergency situations will be covered? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr.

Speaker, the member is essentially asking the same question. The agencies that provide services-a nd I do say I have a lot more confidence and faith in the professional staff who operate and work in those agencies than the member does. They face long-weekend situations from time to time throughout the course of the year and put in place procedures to deal with emergency situations. I am sure the boards and staff, the leadership of those agencies, have the confidence that the measures they have put in place certainly will work. Crown Corporations Reduced Workweek Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker, also have a question in regard to the public sector reduction. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) if he can now indicate what is going to happen with the many Crown corporation s--we are seeing, for example, in terms of MTS which is going to have to compete with Unitel. Other Crown corporations have to compete in the retail sector, such as liquor commissions. Which ones are going to be affected by the closures? Which ones are not? Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister of Labour): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to report to the House and to inform the member for Thompson, in the case of most of the corporations, either negotiations have been concluded with their bargaining units or are in the process of being concluded. I can tell him that at the Manitoba Telephone System, agreements were concluded with all of the unions representing the various employees in a very amicable way. Service will be provided, and those people will certainly be continuing to do the job on behalf of the people of our province. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolitical Statement Mr.

Ben Svelnson (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, may I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for La Verendrye have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed) Mr. Svelnson: Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I rise before the House today to once again recognize the achievements of some of our very fine Manitoba athletes. The sport of ringette has enjoyed tremendous popularity and success in Manitoba.

I can modestly say that Manitoba has been the most dominant province in the sport at the national level and that this status was reaffirmed last month with Manitoba's winning of three national championships in the Debs, the Belles and the Junior divisions. One of these players is in the Chamber today serving as a Page, Ms. Gaetane Manaigre. She played for the Assiniboine Park-Fort Garry Sixers this season and was a member of the Manitoba Belles that won the Canadian championships in Kitchener, Ontario, April 1 0 to 14.

Gaetane was also a member of the Manitoba ringette team that participated in the 199 1 Canada Winter Games in Charlottetown and contributed significantly to Manitoba winning the Centennial Cup as the most improved province for the previous set of games. I would ask all members to join me in congratulating Gaetane, and all those who have brought pride and distinction to our province with their accomplishments at the Cana dia n championships, for their personal development and contribution to the promotion of ringette in Manitoba,

May 19 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 318 1 and for the positive role models and leadership they provide for other ringette players and for women in sport in Manitoba. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you call second readings Bill 34 and then adjourned debate Bills 12, 23 and 22, in that order. SECOND READINGS Bill 34- The Public Schools Amendment (Francophone Schools Governance) Act Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of labour (Mr. Praznik), that Bill 34, The Public Schools Amendment (Francophone Schools Governance) Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les ecoles publiques (gestion des ecoles frangaises), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. *

(1420) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present for second reading, Bill 34, which will establish a Francophone school division in our province. The bill provides for the election of a Francophone school board. That board will be responsible for providing Francophone French first language education in Manitoba as required by

Section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The enactment of this legislation will provide the Franco-Manitoban community with a mechanism to manage and control the schools their children attend. It also reflects the special recognition given by our Constitution to the English and French languages.

Section 23 of the Charter guarantees the right of the English-speaking minority in Quebec and the French-speaking minority elsewhere in Canada to have their children receive primary and secondary school education in the language of the linguistic minority in their province. The Supreme Court in a 1990 decision has interpreted

Section 23 as granting these official minorities the right to govern their own schools where numbers warrant. This bill providing for this governance right, is truly a milestone in the historical development of French language education in Manitoba. In our province, today, there are over 5,400 children attending French first language programs or frangais programs as they are called. These students attend their frangais programs in 27 schools in the province located in eight different school divisions.

The long-standing tradition of supporting and facilitating but not imposing change from above has been maintained by my government in Bill 34 and in our approach to the implementation of the governance system. Francophone parents will be informed about the new structure and how it will operate and about its many advantages. That important task has been assigned to the implementation committee, chaired by the Honourable Alfred Monnin, former Chief Justice of the Manitoba Court of Appeal, who has had a long involvement with Francophone education. Mr.

Monnin will be joined on the team by representatives nominated by affected groups. I am pleased that the key Francophone groups have accepted my long-standing invitation to serve on such a committee. I will provide for your information a copy of this committee's mandate and its membership because, as I said before, it will play an important and complementary role in relation to the provisions in this bill. The implementation committee will provide the parents with an opportunity to signal their decision to join the new school division.

I believe that most parents will welcome the opportunity to participate in this important new stage in the evolution of French instruction in education, but my government will not impose a system on parents from the top down, so to speak. By Bill 34, existing boards are not prohi bited from continuing to offer French instruction. The government of Manitoba is committed to meeting its constitutional obligations under

Section 23 and believes that this bill will make The Public Schools Act constitutionally sound. It incorporates the principles outlined by the Supreme Court of Canada in its March 4, 1993, decision and the general requirements spelled out in the Mahe case in 1990. The content of this bill is guided by the numerous recommendations submitted to the Minister of Education and Training on May 31, 1991, by the Manitoba Task Force on Francophone Schools Governance. This task force was set up in 1990 to

31 82 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 19 , 19 93 advise the government on all matters related to the establishment of a governa nce system for Franco-Manitoban schools. The task force was chaired by Edgar Gallant, a distinguished career civil servant who had presided over similar task forces on French education in B·itish Columbia and Saskatchewan.

It included representatives from the Francophone community's parent, trustee and educator organizations, as well as the Soci et e fr anco-manitobaine and representatives of educational stakeholders like the Manitoba Association of School Business Officials, the Manitob a Asso ciation of Scho ol Superintendents, the Manitoba Association of School Trustees and the Manitoba Teachers' Society. The proposed legislation creates a Francophone school division to be established by regulation not later than eight months after the bill is given Royal Assent.

Certainly, it is my hope that we will be in a position to establish the division in the late fall of this year. The territory of the Francophone school division will include all areas of the province where census data shows si gni fi cant co ncentr atio ns of Fran co- Manitoba ns. This means that every community which now has a school offering a franc;ais program will be included within the territorial boundaries of the new division. In addition, some other communities which have concentrations of Franco-Manitobans but no franc;ais school programs will also be included in the territory.

The territory will be comprehensive enough to allow the new board to respond effectively to the needs of Franco-Manitoban communities. A map describing the territory of the new Francopho ne divi sion can be found in the information booklet entitled Francophone Schools Governance, and I will be making that booklet available for you today. Under the guidelines expressed by the Supreme Court, the province has considerable scope in choosing the precise model for governance. A single Francophone school division was the model recommended to the government by the Gallant task force.

We accept the opinion of the task force that given the size and location of Manitoba's Francophone population, this model is the best of possible alternatives. It has several advantages. It will provide a uniform approach to Francophone education. It will be less costly to operate, and it will be more efficient and effective in arranging for serv ices, recruitment and professional development. The new Francophone school division will be respo nsible for the delivery of primary and secondary educational programs in Its territory where numbers warrant.

This simply means that wherever there are sufficient numbers of students whose

Section 23 parents want their children's education to be provided by the Francophone school division to make this practical, these programs will be provided. In large measure, this education is already being provided in franc;ais programs in schools now. My government expects that parents of children in most of these existing schools and programs will wish to join the new division so that those programs will simply be transferred to the new division. The creation of the new division involves primarily a change in administr ation of those existin g programs. The object of Bi1134, Mr. Speaker, is to provide an effective mechanism for all parents who want to exercise their rights under

Section 23 of the Charter. It is simply not practical or desirable in Manitoba to provide a multiplicity of

Section 23 governance arrangements. Options such as numerous boards and guaranteed minimum or proportional representation on existing boards were considered and rejected by the Gallant committee. I believe their decision to reject these approaches was sound. Guaran teed minimum or a pro portional representation, in particular, has run into a lot of criticism as being divisive, cumbersome and otherwise unworkable in Ontario, where it has been used in a number of divisions. Thus no changes are contemplated as a result of

Section 23 in the way existing boards are elected. It would be count erproductive to entertain the notion of competing

Section 23 governance structures while existing boards will not be prohibited and thus may continue to deliver French instruction separately and independently of the Francophone board. Under Bill34, the principal program offered by the new Francophone board will be the fran�ais model, one designed for students whose mother tongue and home language is French. The new division will not provide English or French Immersion programs.

May 19 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 318 3 These programs will remain the responsibility of existing school divisions. To ensure that children master French as their first language, the programs offered by the division will be intensive, providing at least 75 percent of classroom instruction in the French language in each grade. Members may be aware that this is the predominant model in use today in Manitoba. There are, however, some schools in which a less intensive approach is taken, sometimes referred to as the partial franc;ais approach.

Should the parents of children in a less intensive program want to join the new division, there will be a three -year transitional period during which the Francophone board will be obliged to continue that approach for those children. The Francophone school division will also be responsible to develop and offer a program called programme d'accueil which can be translated as a type of welcoming program. The program will be developed and offered if there is a sufficient demand for it. This program will assist nonfluent children of

Section 23 parents to acquire the language skills required for them to participate successfully in the French language program provided by the new Francophone school division. * (1 430) The necessity for such a program lies in the fact that there are a large number of Manitoba children, approximately 11 ,000, whose mother tongue is not French, but whose parents have rights under the Charter. The Charter confers rights to minority instruction on parents regardless of the language skills of their children.

Let me focus for a moment on exactly who will be entitled to send their children to school in the new division. As previously mentioned, the Francophone school division's mandate is to provide French language programs to students whose parents wish to exercise their right under

Section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In the Manitoba context, that

section confers rights primarily on Franco-Manitobans. In a few cases, due to the working of the Charter, individuals who are not members of the linguistic minority may have

Section 23 rights. The Gallant task force recommended that, in some respects, the entitlement provision spelled out in

Section 23 of the Charter be defined more precisely. We believe these recommendations are consistent with the purpose of the Charter

Section 23, and we have included them in the bill. The bill therefore defines the following residents of Manitoba as persons entitled to have their children educated by the Francophone school division: Persons whose first language learned and understood is French; Canadian citizens who have received at least four years of primary school instruction in the French first language program in Canada; or Canadian citizens, any child of whom is receiving or has received at least four years of primary or secondary school instruction in a French first language program in Canada.

Only one of the child's parents must meet the above criteria to ensure eligibili ty. Under the provisions I have just described, every Franco Manitoban parent residing in the territory of the division will be eligible to send his or her child to programs run by the new board. In addition, those Manitobans whose children are now attending frangais programs will be eligible. The bill makes it very clear that if a program is transferred, every child now attending such a program will be entitled to continue to attend.

As recommended by the task force, the Francophone school board will also be empowered to admit ot her children whose parents do not meet the criteria set above. Mr. Speaker, I might add that under Bill 34, entitled persons not resident in the territory of the Francophone school division will also be able to send their children to schools run by the Francophone division if this is practicable. Now a word about the unique aspects of the new governance structure. Bill 34 proposes the creation of a French language school division with a unique trilevel structure.

This trilevel approach is designed to ensure that the Francophone school division is responsive to the needs of Manitoba's linguistic minority and will encourage the development and the use of its programs and facilities. The key elem en ts of the structure are local scho ol committees, regional committees and the school board. To ensure strong local involvemen t, the proposed legislation requires that a school committee be established for each school in which a program is being provided by the Francophone school division.

These school committees will be consulted on all matters affecting their particular schools.

31 84 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 19 , 19 93 The Francophone school division will be divided into regions. Each region will have a regional committee whose members will be elected by the parents. The regional committees will keep the school board attune to regional matters. In turn, the regional committees will be obliged to consult with the school committees about local school issues.

In addition to the important advisory and consultative role played by the regional committees, Bill 34 permits the Francophone school board to delegate to a regional committee the responsibility to actually make determinations about regional matters. Each regional committee will elect trustees from am ong their membe rship to serve on the Francophone school board. The board will be a decision-making body for the Francophone school division and will have all of the regular duties and powers of existing school boards except for the power of property taxation. Mr.

Speaker, I should add that the governance structure I have just described is essentially that recommended by the Gallant task force. Although the proposed boundaries of the division itself have been identified, it would not be wise or appropriate to determine the precise number of regions and their bou ndaries until the implementation committee has completed its work identifying which existing programs will initially be transferred.

That committee has been asked to provide its recommendations on the number of regions, their boundaries, the number of councillors to be elected in each region, and the number from each regional committee to serve on the school board. Bi ll 34 enables those matters to be prescribed by regulation. The obj ectiv e will be to ens ure that the governance structure is representative of the population it serves and sensitive to both rural and urban concerns. The Gallant committee foresaw four such regions, one in the urban area of Winnipeg and three in the rural areas. Mr.

Speaker, I now want to highlight some of the relevant provisions regarding the election of the governance structure. Parents who send their children to programs run by the new Francophone school division or entitled persons and their spouses who have requested in writing that their child's education be provided by the Francophone school division will have the right to vote in elections for regional committees. There will be special provisions for the first election which I will describe in a moment.

Bill 34 also provides for the possibility and subsequent elections of widening the franchise beyond parents by regulation. Any parent eligible to vote will also be able to run for office of a regional committee member. Other individuals who have the ability to operate in the French language will also be eligible to run for office, even if they do not have school-age children. The intent is to ensure that parents will not be denied the chance to elect experienced and capable members of the community merely because those persons may not be parents of a school-age child in the system.

As I said before, some of the elected regional committee members will serve as trustees on the Francophone school board. Each regional committee will choo se its representatives to sit on the Francophone school board. According to Bill 34, funding for the Francophone school division will come primarily from provincial grants available to all Manitoba school divisions under The Public Schools Act and monies from derived from school taxes.

As previously mentioned, the Francophone school board will not be empowered to raise revenues through a levy on property. lnstead, it will receive payments from each school division in which one or more of its students reside equivalent to the local taxes raised by the school division on a per-student basis multiplied by the number of students from the particular school division attending a program operated by the Francophone school division. This concept too originates from the Gallant task force report recommendations. Mr.

Speaker, public funds are already being provided for Francophone education in the province. The new governance structure is primarily a change in administration of that exist ing education. While there may be costs associated with the transition in administrative structure as required by the Charter, the government does not expect these costs to be substantial. As in the case with existing boards, the new Francop hone board will be obliged to conduct its operation in an efficient and cost-effective manner, mindful of the necessary limits to overall public expenditure.

Before concluding my remarks today, I want to expla in ho w the wo rk to be done by the

May 19 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 85 implementation committee will support and facilitate a smooth and effective transition to the new system. First, as I noted above, that committee will perform the important task of informing parents likely to be affected by the creation of this new structure of the details of this initiative. The informational pamphlet I will soon provide will be distributed by the committee to all parents whose children now atte nd franc;ais programs. The implementation committee will ask parents who qualify under

Section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms whether they want the Francophone programs that their children currently attend to be transferr ed. ln the event there is no clear consensus in a particular school community, the long-respected prin ciple of majority determination, the only practical way of dealing with such an issue, will be applied. * (14 40) Let me elaborate somewhat on the registration process.

In each of the schools in Manitoba where a franc;ais or a French first language program is being provided, a registration form will be distributed by the implementation committee to the parents of each child attending such a program. Parents with children eligible to attend in 1994 will be surveyed as well. The form will ask the parents to indicate whether or not they wish their child's education to be administered by the new Francophone school division.

The chairperson of the implementation committee will collect the confidential registrations, will tabulate the results of each school and will inform the government of its results. The process is to be com plated by October 1 of 1993. Given the number of schools involved and the fact that it is difficult to carry on such a task on school vacation, this is a very ambitious schedule. This process must precede the determination of regions and boundaries and, given the ob jective to hold elections in this calendar year, the compressed

schedule is necessary. If a majority of the completed registrations in a particular school program indicate that parents want their child's education to be administered by the Francophone school division, that program will be designated for transfer by regulation. Ultimately, the program will be transferred to the Francophone school division. Mr. Speaker, all parents of children in a program designed for transfer will be eligible to vote in the first election of regional committees. This is an example of how the work of the implementation committee and the provisions of Bill 34 will interrelate.

If a majority of the parents do not favour the transfer of their school's education to the new division, that program will remain the responsibility of the school division in which they reside. However, Bill 34 makes it clear that individual entitled parents whose children attend such programs still have the right to request that their child's education be provided by the new Francophone school division. Bill 34 makes it equally clear that the Francophone school division will be obliged to provide education to such children wherever it is practical to do so.

Individual Charter rights are not removed because of a decision of a school community as a whole to stay with the status quo. Consistent with such an approach under Bill 34, any entitled parent signifying an intent in writing to have the new board deliver his or her child's education will also be able to vote in the first election for regional committees even if the program his or her child attends has not been designated for transfer. Having talked about transfers of programs, I now want to explain how Bill 34 provides for the transfer of school facilities from existing boards to the new Francophone division.

You will recall that there are now 27 schools in Manitoba where francais programs are offered. Nineteen of these 27 schools are linguistically homogene ous. In other words, the entire student body follows a French first language or francais program. We refer to these as single program schools. The property transfer provisions related to these 19 schools will be quite simple and straightforward.

Where the majority of registrations in any of these single program schools favour the transfer of the French first languag e program to the new Francophone school division, Bill 34 provides that not only the program but also the school facility in which that program is offered will be transferred to the new Francophone school division. There are, however, eight schools where francais programming exists which can be described as mixed program schools.

There, in addition to students following the francais programs, there are other students, most of them in French immersion programs, but a few are taking English programs.

31 86 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 19 , 19 93 For the most part, Mr. Speaker, these schools are located in rural areas where the number of children may not be sufficient to justify separate school facilities. Bill 34 requires that adequate premises be transferred to the Francophone school division to house any programs designated for transfer in these schools. Bill 34 contem plates that shared use of existing facilities is one possibility.

The implemen tation comm ittee has been asked to recommend which schools or school space should be made available to the Francophone division to house any of those French first language programs presently located in mixed program schools, where the majority of registrations favour the transfer of these progr ams to the new division.

The impl emen tation commit tee's recom men dations will be forwarded to the new Francophone board and the existing boards to work out the details or negotiate some other mu tually agreeable arrangement related to the transfer or the shared use of schools presently housing programs in addition to the French first language program. Bill 34 will provide for the appointment of an arbitrator to resolve any stalemate.

Bill 34 also includes provision for entitled parents, as a group, to request that consideration be given to transferring a program to the Francophone school division any time after the division has been running schools for two years. Such requests can be made on a periodic basis. Elections of the regional committ ees are targeted for late fall, early winter of 199 3 , provided that the identification of participating programs can be ascertained before October 1 , 19 93.

Assuming that elections of regional comm ittee members proceed in 1993, and the Francophone school board itself is elected from among regional committee members prior to the end of 1993, the new board will assume responsibility for its students as of July 1 , 1994. There will be a very significant workload for the newly established board to undertake before it assumes responsibility for students.

Establishing its offices, hiring its administrative officers, preparing budgets, arranging for an orderly transfer of staff, dealing with the details of any sharing arrangements and preparing a transportation plan are only some of the act ivities it will undertake. No doubt, there will be much consultation and co-ope ration between the new board and the existing boards to make the transition as smooth as possible for affected students, staff and parents. Bill 34 contai ns numerous provisions to ensure that the transfers of staff and assets proceed efficiently and give consideration to all affected parties.

A process is provided for the selection of teachers to fill positions with the new board. Fair procedures incorporating appropriate successor-right principles will protect the rights of teachers, princip als and nonteaching staff transferred to the new school division. Thus rights and benefits of teachers and other nonteaching employees, as set forth In current collec tive agreements and empl oyee contracts, will be honou red until new agreements are finalized between the new Francophone board and its emp loyees.

The task of creating an appropriate new collec tive bargaining framework may appear at first blush to constitute a challenge to the board and its employees alike, given the number of bargaining units and collec tive agreements which will be subsumed within the board's initial operations. I am confident that all concerned are up to the task. Nonetheless, the provision is made for the collective agreement board and Manitoba's Labour Board to assist the parties in this task if needed. Mr. Speaker, this com pletes my

summary of the highlights of Bill 34. I am confident that the content ofthis bill will respond to the requireme nts of

Section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I am proud to have been associated with this im portant step in the evolution of French language education in Manitoba. I believe the provisions of this bill will meet the aspirations of the Franco-Manitoban commu nity to control and to manage their educational facilities. It will enrich the province of Manitoba and Canada as a whole by providing the Francophone commun ity in Manitoba with an institution to promote and strengthen its cultural and linguistic heritage. * (1 450) Mr. Nell Gaudry (St.

Bonifac e): Monsieur le president, il me fait plaisir de faire une presentation devant cette Assemblee cet apres-midi. Pour moi, c'est une journee historique, encore de pouvoir faire un discour s totalement en franqais. En 19 88, lo rsque j'ai ete elu pour Ia premi ere fois a L'Assemblee legislative du Manitoba, c'etait aussi une journee histori que : c'etait Ia premiere fois depuis 18 90 qu'un discours avait ete fait totalement

May 19 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 318 7 en franQB.is. Alors, aujourd'hui, il me fait grandement plaisir, pour cette journee historique pour Ia francophonie du Manitoba. A Ia suite de Ia presentation devant cette Assemblee legislative du projet de loi par Ia ministre de !'Education, je reagis immediatement avec joie au coeur, d'autant plus que le projet de loi fut seconde par le premier ministre lui-meme, ce qui a mes yeux signifia de fac;on evidente !'importance avec laquelle le gouvernement desirait traiter de ce dossier. Le Projet de loi 34, Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les ecoles publiques (Gestion des ecoles frangaises) est un des projets de loi parmi les plus importants pour les Franco -M anitobains et les Franco-Manitobaines, car Ia langue d'education d'un peuple est Ia source intellectuelle qui assure I' existence de ce meme peuple.

Comme je l'ai deja dit a maintes reprises dans cette chambre, c'est I' ancien president de Ia France, Georges Pompidou qui, a mon avis exprime bien simplement mais co mbien justement !'importance de Ia langue frangaise quand il disait que le role de Ia langue n'est pas un simple moyen d'expression, c'est un moyen de penser, un moyen d'influence intellectuelle, et c'est a travers notre langue que nous existons. Cet effort que je fais et que font les Franco-Manitobains et les Franco-Manitobaines pour le developpement et l'epanouissement de Ia francophonie au Manitoba, c'est aux Francophones de le faire.

Et, en harmonie avec !'initiative adequate mais attend ue du gouvernement c'est a Ia communaute francophone du Manitoba toute entiere de participer activement a l'histoire de notre province. Quel plus beau geste de remerciement a Louis Riel pouvons-nous offrir a nos enfants que celui de leur assurer une education en frangais. Une education pour laquelle le fondateur du Manitoba lui-meme a eta jusqu'a perdre sa vie. Monsieur le president, je ne veux pas laisser ici debor der I' emotion du moment sur Ia realite vivante historique que vit actuellement Ia province du Manitoba.

Nous laisserons aux historians le soin de rapporter l'ampleur des actions des Francophones du Manitoba. C'est avec sincerite mais avec vigueur, que j'invite les Franco-Manitobains et les Franco Manitobaines a participer aux audiences publiques du comite parlementaire qui traitera de ce projet de loi. Que cela soit a

titre individual ou communautaire, a son nom personnel ou a celui d'un organisme, porte-parole professionnel ou syndical, d'une communaute religieuse ou a

titre de lai"que, de Chevalier de Colomb ou de Franc-magon, de travailleur ou d'etudiant, du milieu rural ou du milieu urbain, intellectual ou ouvrier, de jeunes ou moins jeunes, de pere ou de mere, d'homme ou de femme, j'invite la population franco-manitobaine a venir faire des pres entations aux audiences publiques du comite parlementaire. Le gouvernement, tout comme les partis d'opposition, a besoin des recommendations du public en ce qui a trait a Ia gestion des ecoles frangaises.

C'est une invitation publique que je lance a Ia populat ion franco-m anitobaine a participer a un procede democratique et necessaire a l'avenir de Ia langue frangaise au Manitoba et dans I'Ouest canadien. C'est une invitation que je lance a Ia francophonie manitobaine a prendre !'occasion de recommender des amendements durant les audiences publiques du comite parlementaire afin d'ameliorer le projet de loi et de satisfaire les Franco-Manitobains et les Franco-Manitobaine s.

Mon sieur le president, les all egeances ideologiques doivent servir de til conducteur tout en permettant a Ia pensee de ne pas outrepasser Ia realite. La raison d'etre de notre Assemblee legislative, de contribuer a !'amelioration des conditions de vie des Manit obains et des Manitobaines, doit etre Ia source d'inspiration qui permette au gouvernement et a !'opposit ion de se completer l'un l'autre. Je ne discuterai pas ici de maniere systematique les differences des deux bo rds parce que Ia chose est deja faite de fagon habituelle.

Neanmoins, j'aimerais preciser qu'il est le role de !'opposition de montrer avec force et pertinence les insuffisances du gouverneme nt. A mon opinion, le projet de loi semble proposer les recommendations pr in cipales du rapport Galla nt, ce dont je felic ite le gou vernement . Notamment, le projet de loi prevoit l'etablissement de comites scolaires locaux, plus exactement au niveau de chaque ecole ce qui, a mon avis, est !'assurance de Ia participation active des ayants

31 88 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 19 , 19 93 droit dont les droits sont garantis par !'article 23 de Ia Charta canadienne des droits et libertes. Egalement de positif dans le projet de loi est Ia prev ision d'etablir un programme d'accueil afin d'ameliorer les habiletes des eleves aux exigences linguistiques du programme frarn;ais. Ceci pourrait hrt bien deboucher a Ia mise en place de certains programmes de francisation qui pourrait etre le trait de liaison du programme frangais d'immersion au programme franqais.

Entin Ia creation d'un comite d'admission est une note positive a Ia concretisation logique de I' existence d'une division scolaire qui se soucie de Ia qualite des programmes qu'elle offre. Monsieur le president, je dois neanmoins souligner plusieurs faiblesses qui existent dans le projet de loi. Des faiblesses qui m'inquietent d'abord comme legislateur, comme contribuable et enfin comme Francophone. Je me resignerai aujourd'hui a en citer les principales afin de susciter des recommendations des Franco-Manitobains et des Franco-Manitobaines.

Tout d'abord !'absence totale dans le projet de loi de precisions sur le processus de fonctionnement et les pouvoirs du comite d'implantation, ou comite Monnin, dont Ia ministre de !'Education n'est pas tenue d'en retenir les recommendations. Ensuite, j'ai un grand nombre de questions auxquelles j'espere nous pourrons trouver ensemble des solutions accommodantes pour toutes les parties impliquees. Quel est !'int eret public a maintenir deux programmes franqais paralleles: l'un offert par Ia division scolaire de langue franqaise, et I' autre offert par Ia commission scolaire du systeme actual?

Pour quelle raison donne-t-on tant de pouvoir au ministre de !'Education? La formula de financement proposee est-elle vraiment realiste? Ne risque-t-on pas de voir Ia division scolaire de langue franqaise recevoir differents montants d'argent pour deux ou plus d'eleves de Ia meme classe, simplement parce qu'ils n'appartiennent pas a Ia meme commission scolaire actuelle? Les taxes scolaires variant d'une commission scolaire a une autre, de quelle maniere Ia division scolaire de langue franqaise pourra-t-elle etablir ses prev isions budgetaires de faqon efficace?

Monsieur le pre sident, pourquoi donne-t-on au ministre de !'Education le pouvoir ultima de decider qui peut etre candidat aux elections? Le principe fondamental de Ia democratie ne dicte-t-il pas une obligation pour Ia loi de definir qui a le droit de vote et qui peut se presenter aux elections? Pourquoi donne-t-on le droit de se presenter aux elections aux personnes qui n'ont pas d'enfants d'age scolaire et qu'on leur refuse le droit de vote? Pourquoi accorde-t-on le droit de vote aux ayants droit aux deux commissions scolaires, a celle de langue frarn;aise et a celle existant sous le systeme actual?

Pourquoi les autobus et les chauffeurs d'autobus ne sont-ils pas transferes a Ia division scolaire de langue franqaise? N'y a-t-il pas ici une dimension de securite envers les enfants a avoir un chauffeur d'autobus qui parle frarn;ais? Le fait de donner Ia possiblite aux ayants droit de choisir de se joindre ou non a Ia division scolaire de langue franq aise n'est-il pas purement et simplement un empechement par Ia majorite a Ia minorite d'exercer son droit? La mise en place de Ia divis ion scolaire francophone n'est-elle pas sujette au bon vouloir des divisions scolaires majoritaires?

Monsieur le president, comme je l'ai mentionne plus tot, tout ceci sont des preo ccupations qui neces sitent probablement certains eclaircisse ments, sinon des ajustements ou amendements qui devraient etre proposes ou recommandes par Ia communau te francophone. C'est pourquoi je considere ce projet de loi com me un point de depart pour !'implantation finale de Ia gestion scolaire francophone au Manitoba.

II y a encore beaucoup de travail a faire, et nous devrions permettre au Projet de loi 34 d'aller en comite parlementaire le plus vite possible afin d'avoir des discussions et des consultations avec Ia communaute francophone. Monsieur le presi dent, Ia m inistre mentionnait que c'est un echeancier ambitieux. Je le crois, mais je crois, en travaillant ensemble, les trois partis dans cette chambre et Ia communaute, qu'il est realiste de pouvoir avoir notre gestion scolaire en 1994. Avec ces commentaires, je felicite le gouvernement d'avoir apporte ce projet de loi en cette journee historique pour le Manitoba.

Merci beaucoup. [Translation]

May 19 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 31 89 Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to make a presentation before this Assembly this afternoon. For me, this is a historic day, once again, to be able to make a speech completely in French. In 1988, when I was elected for the first time to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, it was a historic day also. It was the first time since 1 890 that a speech had been made totally in French. So, today, I am very pleased on this historic day for Manitoba Francophones.

Following the presentation before this Legislative Assembly on the bill by the Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Vodrey), I am reac ting immediately with joy in my heart, all the more because the bill was seconded by the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) himself which, in my mind, clearly indicated the importance that the government wished to give to this matter. Bill 34, The Public Schools Amendment (Francophone Schools Governance) Act is among the most important bills for Franco-Manitobans because the language of education of a people is the intellectual source which ensures the existence of this same people.

Mr. Speaker, as I have already said many times in this House, it was the former President of France, Georges Pompidou who, in my opinion, expressed very simply, but so aptly, the importance of the French language when he said that the role of language is not simply to be a means of expression. It is a way of thinking, a means of intellectual influence and it is through our language that we exist. Mr. Speaker, this effort that I am making and which Franco-Manitobans are making for the development and flourishing of Francophone life in Manitoba, it is up to Francophones to do it.

And in keeping with the proper but awaited initiative of the government, it is up to the Francophone community of Manitoba, in its entirety, to participate actively in the history of our province. What finer gesture of thanks to Louis Riel could we offer to our children than that of ensuring them an education in French, an education for which the founder of Manitoba himself went so far as to lose his life? Mr. Speaker, I do not want to let the emotions of the moment spill over into the living historical reality of the province of Manitoba at the present time.

We will leave it to historians to record the scope of the actions undertaken by Manitoba Francophones. It is sincerely and vigorously that I am inviting Franco-Manitobans to participate in the public hearings of the parliamentary committee that will be dealing with this bill.

Whether it be on an individual or on a community basis, in one's own name or on behalf of an organization, as a spokesperson for a profession or a union, whether from a religious community or whether as a layperson, a Knight of Columbus or Freemason, worker or student, whether from rural or urban areas, whether intellectual or labourer, young or not-so-young, father or mother, man or woman, I invite the Franco-Manitoban population to come and make presentations at the public hearing s of the parliamentary committee.

The government, as well as the opposition parties, requires the recommendations of the public in regard to the governance of French schools. This is a public invitation that I am making to the Franco-Manitoban population to participate in a democratic procedure that is necessary to the French language in Manitoba and in western Canada. It is an invitation that I am making to Franco-Manitobans to take the opportunity to recommend amendments during the public hearings of the parliamentary committee in order to improve this bill so as to satisfy Franco- Manitobans. Mr.

Speaker, ideological allegiances must serve as a conductor while at the same time not allowing reflection to surpass reality. The raison d'etre of our Legislative Assembly, to contribute to the improvement of the con ditions of life of all Manitobans, must be the source of inspiration which allows the government and the opposition to complement one another. Mr. Speaker, I am not going to discuss here in a systematic way the differences on each side, because this is something that is done regularly.

Nevertheless, I would like to specify that it is the role of the opposition to show, forcefu lly and relevantly, the government's insufficiencies. In my opinion, the bill seems to propose the principal recommendations of the Gallant report, and for that I congratulate the government. Particularly, the bill provides for the establishment of local school committees, more exactly, at the level of each school, which in my opinion ensures the active participation of entitled persons, persons whose rights are guaranteed under

Section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. * (1 500)

319 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 19 , 1993 Also positive in the bill is the provision for the establishment of a progr amme d'accueil in order to improve the abilities of pupils to meet the linguistic requireme nts of the French program. This could very well lead to the setting up of certain francization program s which could represent the link between the French Immer sion program and the French program . Mr.

Speaker, lastly, the creation of an admissions comm ittee is a positive note in the logical realization of the existence of a school division which is concerned with the quality of the program s that it offers. Mr. Speaker, I must, however, emphasize several weaknesses that exist in the bill, weaknesses which concern me first as a legislator, then as a taxpayer and finally as a Francophone. I will confine myself today to citing the princi pal ones in order to incite recomm endations from Franco- Manitobans.

Rrstly, the total absence in the bill of details on the process of functioning and the powers of the implemen tati on comm itte e, or the Monnin comm ittee, whose recomm endations the minister is not requir ed to adopt. Next I have many questions to which I hope we will be able together to find solutions that accom modate all the parties involved. How is the public interest served by maintaining two parallel French programs, one offered by the Francophone school division and the other offered by the school board of the current system? Why is so much power given to the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey)?

Is the proposed financing formula really realistic? Are we not likely to see the Francophone school division receive different amounts of money for two or more pupils in the same class simply because they do not belong to the same current school board? As school taxes vary from one school board to another, how will the Francophone school division be able to establish its budget estimates in an efficient manner? Mr. Speaker, why is the Minister of Education given the ultimate power of deciding who can be an electoral candidate?

Does not the fundamental principle of democracy dictate an obligation for the law to define who has the right to vote and who can be a candidate ? Why is the right to run for election given to persons who do not have children of school age and to whom the right to vote is refused? Mr. Speaker, why is the right to vote given to entitled persons for two school boards, that is, to the Francophone one and the one that exists under the current system? Why are the buses and bus drivers not transferred to the Francophone school division?

Is there not a safety consideration here with regard to children having a bus driver who speaks French? Is not the fact of giving the possibility to entitled persons of joining or not joining the Francophone school division purely and simply an imp ediment by the majority of the minority's exercise of its right? Is not the setting up of the Francophone school division subject to the good will of the majority school divisions? Mr.

Speaker, as I mentioned earlier, all of these are concerns which will probably necessitate certain clarifications, if not adjustments or amendments that should be proposed or rec ommen ded by the Francophone communi ty. It is for that reason that I consider this bill as a point of departure for the final implemen tation of Francophone school governance in Manitoba. There is still a great deal of work to do and we will have to allow Bill 34 to go to the parliame ntary committee as soon as possible in order to have discussions and consultations with the Francophone communi ty. Mr.

Speaker, the minister mentioned that this was an ambitious timetable and I think it is, but I believe, with the three parties in this Hous e working together and working with the com munity, that realistically we can have our schools governance in place in 19 94. With these commen ts, I congr atula te the government for having brought forward this bill on this historic day for Manitoba. Thank you very much. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Je propose , avec l'appui du depute de Wellington (Ms. Barrett), que le debat soit ajourne. [Translation) I move, seconded by the honourable member for Wellington (Ms.

Barrett), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS 8111 12 - The International Trusts Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. McCra e), Bill 12 , The International Trusts Act;

Loi sur les fiducies internat ionales, standing in the name of the

May 19 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 319 1 honourable member for Swan River (M s. Wowchuk). An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Agreed. Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I am going to speak and I wish with all my heart that I could speak in French as the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) did and as the member for Wolseley (Ms.

Friesen) was able to do, but I am going to put the remarks on Bill 12 on the record, I am afraid, only in English. [interjection] If I were to put the remarks on Bill 12 on the record in French, it would be a very short speech, which members opposite maybe would appreciate. Mr. Speaker, on Bill 12, which is The International Trusts Act, I am going to put my comments on the record and then we will be prepared to move this bill to committee.

The background for Bill 12 is the fact that in 1984 the Hague Conference on Private International Law passed a convention whose principal ob jective is to prov ide for the recognition of the essential characteristics of a trust in countries that are members of the conference and whose legal systems do not recognize the concept of a trust. There are many countries in the world that do not follow the common-law traditions that Canada follows.

The international conference recognized the fact that, given the ever-increasing global interactions of a financial and monetary and personal nature, it was necessary that international law take cognizance of the need to connect trusts from countries that do not have common law with countries that do, such as Canada. Since 1984, the federal government has ratified this international law, and the convention that it came out of.

Five provinces-Alberta, British Columbia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Prin ce Edward Is land-have also passed international trust acts, so that people who come to those provinces from countries that do not have a common-law heritage are able to be covered by the international law. Other governments across the world have ratified or are in the process of ratifying this convention, including the United Kingdom, Australia, Italy, Luxembourg, The Netherlands and the United States. Mr.

Speaker, we are pleased to stand and put on the record the fact that we appreciate the provincial government's undertaking this harmonization in the area of trusts. I will tell the Speaker, as he and members of the government know, we are not always in favour of harmonization. In many areas, we feel that it is a negative concept, but, in this particular instance, we are supporting the principles behind The International Trusts Act. The bill basically will set up the parameters for a tr ust, and they would describe the primary characteristics of a trust as it will relate to the Province of Manitoba.

I am assuming that those characteristics of a trust in Bill 12 are identical or in harmony with characteristics that were passed by the convention in the Hague and by other provinces. This describing the primary characteristics of a trust will enable people who come from countries that do not have a common-law tradition to understand and to work with the Canadian and Manitoba context when establishing trusts. The bill also, as the Minister of Justice (Mr.

McCrae) stated in his introduction of the bill, will set out the minimum extent to which the law of the country, i.e, Canada and Manitoba, will recognize the trust. It will set

definitions and it will set minimums so that people will know under what kind of law they are operating. It recognizes, as we have said before, that we need to work within an international context, and an international context in which many countries do not operate under a common-law system, so that this law will attempt to recognize and relieve the problems that can arise if you have a trust or something that acts as a trust coming from your country of origin which does not fit into the common-law concepts of Canada and Manitoba. There are, however, Mr.

Speaker, some issues that I would like to raise briefly before we pass this bill on to committee, issues that have been raised by members of my caucus in the past. This bill, The International Trusts Act, unlike several other pieces of legislation that have been brought forward in the House this session by the government, is not retroactive. I guess I would have a question about why it has not been made retroactive when Bill 22 is retroactive, when the social allowance legislation is retroactive, when the infamous Sunday shopping bill was first introduced, was retroactive.

31 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 19 , 19 93 Just a comment that the government has no problem making other bills dealing with other major issues facing the people of Manitoba retroactive , but in this case, it is not. In other words, it will not apply to trusts that were created before this legislation comes into force.

So in effect, it means that people who have come to Canada and Manitoba from other coun tries and have established trusts or have brought tru sts with them or are the potential beneficiaries of trusts that were established in their country of origin will have to deal with the problems that have been facing them up to this time. It is only trusts that are begun now that will be affected by Bill 12 . As I mentioned earlier, one of the major factors leading to the initiation of Bill 12 is that we are becoming more international in scope.

We have spoken on this side of the House about the problems that this internationalization has engendered for us in Manitoba and Canada and people all over the world, and we will continue to do so, because we are fac ing enormous problems as nati ona l boundaries become more and more porous as money becomes more and more international, as we discover that 47 out of the top 1 00 financial entities in our world are not nation states but are transnational corporations which know no national boundaries, which by definition have no heart or soul but are only solely concerned with profit and the bottom line. • (151 0) So we are in an international world, Mr.

Speaker, and I think, in a positive way, Bill 12 addresses one of the problems that is inherent in an international commu nity, an international commun ity which has a range of legal and fam ilial and fiduc iary backgrounds, and reco gnizes as well that the concept of a trust as looked at in Bi11 12 is essentially a comm on-law kind of a concept. So we believe that basic ally it is a positive move that is being undertaken in Bill 12 .

As we recognize that many people who come from non-comm on-law countries will be able to take advantage of the im plications of Bill 12 , it is also important that we improve the portability and compatibility of the range of trusts and other kinds of similar negotiations that are being undertaken. There are a couple of questions, as I stated earlier, that we have some concerns on, and I am putting them on the record , as have members of our caucus, in the hopes that these questions will be addressed in the public hearing process or in debate on third reading. I would like to briefly outline these questions.

One is the question of illegal transaction and the protection of our trusts. What happens if a transaction is considered legal in the jurisdiction in which it is undertaken and illegal in Manitoba? Does this bill address those kinds of issues? Which jurisdiction takes precedence? Is it the jurisdiction in which the trust or equivalent undertaking was initiated, or is it the laws of Manitoba and Canada? Again, I hope that we are able to figure that out when we come to public hearings. Does this legislation interact with The Wills Act?

Have the drafters of this legislation looked at the harmonization with The Wills Act so that trusts that are set up as a result of wills, estates and all other transactions are all treated equally, or if there are differences in how they are treated, those are clearly delineated in the legislation? That is a question we have that we hope will be answered in public hearings or by the minister in further discussion. There is the question of private trusts.

This again is par ticula rly germane when the feder al government has pushed through, with unseemly haste, an extension of the tax-free status of private trusts in this country. Parenthetically, Mr. Speaker, the government always asks us what we would do to react to the economic probl ems facing us, and one of the things we have said, on a federal level, is that there is an enormous loop hole, an enormous amount of legitimate revenue that could be gained by the federal government throug�they had chosen not to extend the tax holiday on private trusts for another 21 years.

This is just an unbelievable tax loophole that only the wealthiest of our popu lation can take advantage of. Will these trusts be dealt with under Bill 12 ? I would hope , Mr. Speaker, that the provincial gove rnmen t would talk with their federal counterparts on this particular thing, this concept. I know it is a bit late now, but with any luck, there will be a new federal government in the country, and perhaps this issue can be looked at again. Then, perhaps, we will be able to revisit the im pact of that on Bill 12 .

There is another question that we have raised in the House, and I think it is worthy of a bit of discussion, very lim ited discus sion, at this point. I am sure it will be raised again in public hearings and

May 19 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 319 3 again on third reading. That is, is this bill as a result of the No rth Ameri can harmoni zation and integration? Is this bill the outcome of discussions and debate attempting to erase the 49th Parallel, attempting another in the long line of agreements, such as the Free Trade Agreement and the North American Free Trade Agreement, designed to restructure our society in a north-south, rather than east-west, axis?

Now I think, as we said at the beginning, this pi ece of legislation originated in 19 84 in an international convention and conference, but I do think it is very interesting, Mr. Speaker, that it is being proposed at this time when when we are feeling the effects of the Free Trade Agreement and are seriously debating, or at least some of us are seriously debating, the potential hazards of the North American Free Trade Agreement. I would suggest that there is only one party in this country that is actu ally seriously debating this issue, and that is the New Dem ocrats.

Neither the Conservatives nor the Liberals are paying much attention to it for good and sufficient reasons, seeing as how they are the parties of wealth and that their financial backers are very much in favour of the North American Free Trade Agreement. Mr. Speaker, we do have a concern about the impact that this piece of legislation will have on further erasing the border between ourselves and the United States.

Howeve r, given those brief final comm ents on behalf of our caucus, I am prepared, on behalf of my caucus, to close debate on this particular piece of legislation and pass it through to comm ittee hearings. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: As previously agreed, this matter will remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowch uk). Order, please. Point of Order Ms. Barrett: Yes, Mr. Speaker, as I stated at the beginning and concl.usion of my remarks, we are prepared to pass this particular piece of legislation to committee. Mr.

Speaker: I did understand the remarks of the honourable member for Wellington, but leave was already granted to allow this matter to remain standing in the name of the honourable memb er for Swan River. The House had already agreed to that. *** Mr. Speaker: Would you like me to ask the question again? Is there leave for this matter to remain standing in the name of the honourable memb er for Swan River? Is there leave? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: Okay, then leave has been denied. Therefore, the question before the House is second reading of Bill 12 , The International Trusts Act;

Loi sur les fiducies internationales, is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. Bill 23- The Retail Businesses Holiday Closing Amendment, Employment Standards Amendment and Payment of Wages Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson), Bill 23, The Retail Businesses Holi day Closing Amen dment, Em ployment Standards Amendment and Payment of Wages Amendment Act ; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les jours feries dans le comm erce de detail, Ia

Loi sur les normes d'emploi et Ia

Loi sur le paiement des salaires, standing in the name of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak). Stand? Is there leave that this matter remain standing? [agreed) It is also standing in the name of the honourable memb er for Flin Flon, who has 13 mi nutes remaining. * (1 520) Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): It is my privilege to conclude my remarks on Bill 23. Mr. Speaker , the other day the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Stefanson), in answer to questions posed by myself, indicated that this government, under no circums tances, is going to allow this piece of legislation to be discussed in rural Manitoba. I think that shows a degree of cow ardice that we have seldom seen in this Chamber. ! want to rem ind members opposite , and the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister) in

part icular, that when the government refuses to meet the peopl e, when it

319 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 19 , 19 93 refuses to talk about issues that confront us collectively, the government is in serious trouble. Mr. Speaker, I know that this legislation creates a great deal, has created a great deal, of controversy and consternation in ru ral Manitoba. That is a fact . The member for Portage Ia Prairie knows it as well a-: anybody. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Madam Deputy Speaker, the government had a choic e in this matter.

In the first place, the government and many of the members of the front bench and some of the back bench were elected from rural Manitoba. They came here, pu rportedly, to defend the interests of rural Manitobans, to defend the interests of their constituents who want jobs, to protect the interests of their constituents who own small businesses, to protect their communities, the viability of those communities. I have quoted on other occasions remarks that were made by the current member for Pembina (Mr.

Orchard) in 19 87, when he said that he wants to protect jobs and businesses in his constituency, and that is why he supported the 198 7 legislation. Madam Deputy Speaker, the fact of the matter is tha t this legisla tion, although it re presents back tracking on the part of the government, is still a bill that is opposed by the vast majority of people in rural Manitoba, certainly the vast majority of small businesses and the vast majority of elec ted officials in rural Manitoba.

Madam Deputy Speaker, again, the government is guilty of cowardice on two counts, first, their reluc tance, their fear of meeting the people in rural Manitoba on a face-to-face basis and discussing this legislation. They have refused repeatedly to have it dealt with, have committee hearings outside of this Legislature, to have comm ittee hearings in com muni ties like Steinbach, Gimli, Portage Ia Prairie, Brandon, Dauphin, Flin Flon, you name it. It is interes ting , the government has now backtracked from its original proposition that this was going to be a period of reflection on the impact of Sunday shopping.

The government had promised the people of Manitoba that they would be doing an analysis of this trial period. Of course, they have misled Manitobans on that count as well, because there has been no analysis. The Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) has repeatedly been asked for that kind of objective analysis. It has not been forthcoming. Madam Deputy Speaker, the memb er from St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) wants this to go to committee. So do we. We want this legislation to go to committee, and we want, for the member for Portage's (Mr.

Pallister) information, who is not standing up for his constitu ents, this legislation to be discus sed in Portage Ia Prairie. We believe that it should be discussed in rural Manitoba, because the most negative impact of this legislation is going to be on the rural economy. An Honourable Member: How many times did you bring your legislation out to rural Manitoba? How many times when you were in government did you go out to rural Manitoba? Mr. Storie : Many, many times. Many, many, many, many, many times. Yes, many times. An Honou rable Member: Oh, many times you brought it out there. Zip.

Zip, on the record , my friend. Mr. Storie: No, Madam Deputy Speaker. Madam Deputy Speaker, on top of this, I had a meeting in Portage. I had a meeting in- An Honourable Member: Both of the people that were then�- Mr. Storie: -were excellen t, that is right. Both of them did. I had a meeting in Carman a few hours earlier, and there were 14 people , business people, regional people involved in regional development. I had a meeting in Beausejour, and there were 25 or 30 people out. I had a meeting in Lac du Bonnet, again, good represe ntation from the business commu nity.

I had meetings in Gimli, Russell and Dauphin, as well as other commu nities in northern Manitoba. The fact of the matter is that this government is ignoring its roots. It is ignoring the very people who in many circums tances sent them to this Chamber. The fact of the matter is that this piece of legislation is going to slowly but inalterably change the nature of our economy, and it is going to mean lost jobs in rural Manitoba, fewer businesses in rural Manitoba, smaller commu nities and ultimately the demise of some smaller rural communities.

Madam Deput y Sp ea ker, this legisla tio n represents, as I said earlier, a backtracki ng. The government originally said they were going to study

May 19 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 319 5 the im pacts of Sunday shopp ing. They have abandoned that, but it is clear by this legislation that the government was feeling considerable heat from som e of its suppo rte rs , from som e of its constitu encies and that this legislation represents the second best alterna tive to the uni lateral imposition of Su nday shopping, which was the government's first choice. Now , Madam Deputy Sp eaker, wha t the government is prepared to do is to turn over responsibility to the municipalities themselves.

The fact of the matter is that the domino effect is going to take over very quickly after and if this legislation is passed. The mayor of the city of Winnipeg has made it abundantly clear that she and her counc il, she at least, are in support of wide-open Sunday shoppi ng-the more the better. An Honourable Member: Who is that? Mr. Storie: The mayor of the com mu nity of Winnipeg. We all recognize that once the city takes advantage of this piece of legislation and decides to allow for wide-open Sunday shopping, it is not a question of allowing Sunday shopping.

Madam Deputy Speaker, it becomes a business imper ative. It becomes a business imperative because, once the SuperValu is open, once the Canadian Tire is open, once the major department stores are open, what happens is every small business has two choices. What this is going to do is force small busines ses who would otherwise for personal reasons or business reasons choose to be closed, it is going to force them to open. Madam Deputy Speaker, what this does is it encou rages the demise and the closure of small businesses, the mom-and-pop kind of businesses that are the backbone of our economy.

I have said on other occasions that the major employment in the retail sector comes from the small business co mmu nity. [inter jection ] If the me mber for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger) had taken the opportunity to meet with people like Peter Kaufmann from the Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers, he would know that companies, large retailers like SuperValu, create about one hour of emp loyee time for each $500 worth of sales. Small independent grocers create one hour of employment for every $50 in sales.

So the fact of the matter is that on balance there is more emp loyment being created by the small independent grocers-[interjection] Madam Deputy Speaker, the memb er, for wherever the heck he is from, can join this debate and side with the SuperValus any time he wishes. He talks about quality employment. I do not know when the last time he talked to a SuperValu employee, who are now all part-time workers basically without benefits. So he can talk about the significant impr ovement it is for someone to join the retail sector in large business, if he wishes. I invite him to join.

But, Madam Deputy Speaker, the argument holds that there is more employment created in the small indepen den t busi nesses in the province of Manitoba. It is also true in rural Manitoba, in our small com munities. Those kinds of jobs regardless of how imperfect they may be for the member for Osborne (Mr.

Alcock), the fact of the matter is that if you go out to a little community like Elie or go to a com mun ity like Stonewall, you go to a small com mu nity outside the city of Winnipeg, they represent the preponderance of jobs in those communi ties. * (1 530) Madam Deputy Speaker, I know that the front bench, the member for Arthur (Mr. Downey) may want to make fun of it, and the member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger) may want to make fun of this. They may have given up on their commun ities.

They may not want to represent their communi ties, but I think their constitu ents will be glad to know that someone cares, that someone is prepared to stand up and say that in the interest of protec ting the small business commu nity, we should keep-[interjection] Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please . I am having great difficu lty hearing the honourable mem ber for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) complete his remarks. The honourable memb er for Flin Flon has 30 seconds remaining. Mr. Storie: For the enlightenment of the memb er for Portage (Mr.

Pallister), who perhaps should sit and listen more than chirp from his seat, when the payroll tax was first introduced in the province of Manitoba, two-thirds of Manitoba businesses did not pay for it from Day One, two-thirds, including the businesses that I am talking about right now. Madam Deputy Speaker, this legislation is going to undermine rural Manitoba. They will have to pay the conseq uences.

31 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA May 19, 19 93 Madam Deputy Speaker: As previously agreed, this bill will remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak). Mr. Doug Martindale {Burrows): Madam Deputy Speaker, I vividly remember the first Sunday that I preached in rural Saskatchewan after I was ordained. The first service that I had was at Eatonia United Church and the second one at Mantario United Church. During the announcements, I said to people, I notice there are not very many people in chur ch today.

Perhaps it is because it is harvest and people are out on the land harvesting their crops. I thought that maybe there were more people than usual at church that Sunday as they came to check out their new hippie minister with the long hair who wore a leather hat. Howe ver, after church-[in terjection] Yes, I have had beards in the past. The member knows that. I did not have a beard at that particular time, however. After church, I still remember that two of my members took me aside and they said, you know, Doug, we hate to admit this, but this is an average attendance for Mantario United Church.

We are not out on the fields harvesting our crops today and there is a good reason. The reason is that at Mantario our farms are smaller than many people in LaPorte and Eatonia, who had much larger farms. In fact, the farms of Mantario were approximately a

section and a half in size

whereas, at Eatonia and LaPorte, where the land was actually of much better quality soil, the farms were much larger. Many farmers had four sections of land and, so they said, we do not need to harvest on Sunday, we can take in our crops six days a week,

whereas in Eatonia many people felt obliged because of the pressure of time to work on Sunday in the fields and to harvest their crop s . So my apology was not really necessary. As a result, I got to know people like Tom and Marion Marchant in Mantario, Saskatchewan, better than many of my other parishioners, because I used to go there for dinner after church on Sunday, and we used to pla y horseshoes in their yard. I remember that very well. Similarly, when I was growing up, I remem ber that Sunday was a day of almost no activity other than attending Sunday school and church.

After dinner, we used to read or go to a park, and Sunday then surely was a day of rest. I could remember once chiding my brother for playing touch football on Sunday, and he told me where to go and continued playing touch football with his friend. I was a rather judgmental pu rpose person at that time due to the influence of my fundamentalist friends. I remember that it was really a more puritanical time, even for members of the United Church.

If I recall correctly, Sunday was observed in a different way by our Catholic friends, who seemed to have the attitude that if you went to church or after you went to Mass you could do wha teve r you want. That seemed to be a fundamental difference between Protestants and Catholics some 30 years ago. All of that, of course, has changed as many of our churches have become more liberal. The result is that individual and denominational observances of Sunday have changed over the years, over the decades and over millennia. I would like to ask: What are the origins of Sunday observance for us as Christians?

What was the Jewish view ofthe Sabbath? What was Jesus' view? How did the day of rest change from the seventh day to the first day and when? What does God want of us now? How should Christians view the retail shopping amendment act and also The Retail Busin esses Holi day Clo sing Amen dment, Employment Standards Amendment and Payment of Wages Amendment Act? In the Hebrew Scriptures we read: And God spoke these words, saying . . . Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labour, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a Sabbath for the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.

Sabbath in Hebr ew means "rest" or "ceasing from labour." The Hebr ew people were remi nded of their need to imitate God, whose creative activity left the Sabbath free from work. There was a very simple reason for the observance of the Sabbath; it was so that working people may rest. In Exodus, the day of rest was the last day of the week and it still is for Jews. Christians celebr ated the first day of the week since Jesus' resurrection was on the first day. This was made a legal holiday in 321 A.D.

We believe to this day that a day of rest is not merely a com mandment but a gift from God, that is, those of us who are Christians. In Deuteronomy we read: Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt and the Lord your

May 19 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 319 7 God freed you from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm ; therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day. Because Israel was freed from slavery in Egypt, so it should free its slaves and servants and strangers in the camp from the burden of work. They were to rejoice because their servitude was over and to remember this and free others from their servitu de. The Deuteronomic version is mor e humane than Exodus.

The Sabbath is a divine institution made in the interests of people so that people may remember God, not only on the Sabbath, but always. It was not merely a legal ordinance enacted as a ritual taboo but was said in the context of remembr ance. Remembering the Sabbath was also Is rael's grateful response to the exodus, the foundation event of her salvation history. What of modern remembering? The Sabbath or Sunday can be a day of rest and rejoicing and remem bering. We can rejoice and remember that we do not have to work seven days a week or even six days a week.

We, too, are liberated from slavery, the slavery of manual labour, thanks to the invention of numerous labour-saving machines. Rabbi Hersche l, in his book, The Sabbath, said, quote: Sabbath is one of life's highest rewards, a sou rce of strength and inspir ation to endure tribulation, to live nobly. The work on weekdays and rest on the Sabbath day are corelat ed. The Sabbath is the inspirer, the other days the inspired, end of quote. In Matthew's Gospel, we hear the story of Jasus and his disciples walking through the grain fielc.:s on the Sabbath and plucking ears of wheat because they were hungry.

They rubbed the kernels in their h�nds as farmers still do and ate the wheat. This act was one of 39 forms of work forbidden by the rabbi since it was considered reaping and threshing. * (1 540) Jesus defends himself from the accusations of the Pharisees by telling the story of David who ate the holy bread in the temple. He also says that the priests wor

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-66
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 66.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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