Manitoba Hansard — 26 April 1999 (Sitting 15, 36th Legislature, 5th Session)

36-5-15

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 15- 1:30 p.m., Thesday, April27, 1999

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY - Thirty-Sixth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Rob lin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James Arthur- Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. EVANS,Ciif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S.

Brandon East N.D.P. FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. - LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY,Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P.

MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCI-IUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, I-lon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley, I-lon. St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C.

TOEWS, Vic, I-lon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin, I-lon. Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P. - Vacant St. Boniface

645 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, April 27, 19 99 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections First Report Mr. Peter Dyck (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections): Madam Speaker, I would ask for leave to present a report. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Pembina have leave to present the Standing Committee Report on Privi leges and Elections? [agreed] Mr. Dyck: I beg to present the First Report of the Committee on Privil eges and Elections.

An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections presents the following as its First Report. Your committee met on Monday, April 26, 1999, at 7 p.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Assembly to consider bills referred. Your committee heard representation on bills as follows: Bill17-The Elections Amendment and Elections Finances Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi e/.ectorale et Ia

Loi sur le financement des campagnes e/.ectorales; Mr. Fred Taker, Private Citizen Mr. Paul Neilson, Private Citizen Your committee has considered: Billl7-The Elections Amendment and Elections Finances Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi e/.ectorale et Ia

Loi sur le financement des campagnes e/.ectorales; and has agreed to report the same with the following amendment: MOTION: THAT

section 13 of the Bill be amended by renumbering it as subsection 13(1) and by adding the following as subsection 13(2): Coming into force: sections 2 and 3 13(2) Notwithstanding

section 178 of The Elections Act, the amendments to The Elections Act, as enacted by sections 2 and 3 of this Act, come into force on the day this Act receives royal assent. Mr. Dyck: I move, seconded by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon twenty-one Grades 11 and 12 students from St. Maurice School under the direction of Mr.

Shaun McCaffrey and Miss Maria Marasco. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Mini ster of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey). Also, ninety Grade 7 students from Stanley Knowles School under the direction of Miss Joanne Kroemer. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux).

646 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 19 99 On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Centre Venture Government Support Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, it has been reported today that there is a plan from the City of Winnipeg, CentreVenture plan, a dynamic set of ideas to deal with housing, entertainment and attracting people to downtown Winnipeg, the capital city of our great province of Manitoba. I would like to ask the Premier: has his government been involved in discussions with the city, and what is their position on these ideas and plans for the future of the city? *

(1335) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Of course, the health and vitality of the city of Winnipeg is important to all of us in Manitoba. The throne speech speaks to that in terms of our will ingness and desire to continue the efforts to revitalize Winnipeg, particularly the downtown area. We, of course, entered into the tripartite Winnipeg Development Agreement, a $75-milli on, five year plan that included significant development and contributions towards the revitalization of the centre of Winnipeg.

I know from my discussions with the mayor that he is very much aware of how many of the economic programs and initiatives of this government have contributed towards the strengthening of Winnipeg's central downtown area. Certainly we have, through ourselves and our Crown corporations, moved thousands of jobs out of the suburbs and into the centre of the city and helped to dramatically begin the effort of revitalizing what was becoming a very serious area of deterioration.

We have not been directly involved in the development of this plan and so I have not personally seen it, nor do I believe our Minister of Urban Aff airs (Mr. Reimer) has. We will be very interested in seeing it and working with the city to develop a co-ordinated and co operative response. Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, I know the government would also be responsible for developing its own vision for the downtown area of the city of Winnipeg, so I would like to ask the Premier what is his vision and how close is the proposal that was released today by the city to the provincial vision for the ability to bring more people downtown in terms of entertainment, housing and other developments that will excite the dynamic nature of our city. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, as the member opposite knows, it takes more than just doing capital works.

He was a member of a government that spent tens of milli ons of dollars on the North Portage redevelopment but at the same time, in co-operation with others, saw many, many hundreds and thousands of jobs move out of the core of the city. We have done the reverse, and indeed we have created a circumstance whereby in the telecom munications field there are probably 5,000 or 6,000 jobs that are created in the downtown area. This is people who are there for a considerable period of the day. They are there in the evening; they are there longer periods of hours.

They are shopping in the stores; they are eating in the restaurants; they are making access to all of the amenities. We are involved with taking 30,000 square feet, I believe, for the Dep artment of Health in a revitalized heritage building that is being redone. We have another request for proposal that I believe will see some 15 ,000 square feet and the Department of Family Services down in the core area bringing hundreds of people there throughout the period of the day and the evening so that we will get the vitality, we will get the revitalization.

We will ensure that we are doing the right things to get the core area of Winnipeg revitalized, unlike what was done by the member opposite when he had a chance as the Minister of Urban Affairs. City of Winnip eg-Downtown Government Vision Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I had the privilege of working with former Minister Epp and former Mayor Norrie on the planning with the public of The Forks. I was pleased to see that this government carried on with those plans, and I think we should start taking the high road about our city - -

April 27, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 647 and the need to revitalize our city, unlike the shots opposite. I would like to know, besides telemarketing jobs, what entertainment proposals, what proposals for housing-we were involved in the Ashdown warehouse-what other proposals for transportation are part of the provincial vision? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the University of Winnipeg is taking over the Citadel building and going to be creating opportunities for expansion of its performing arts and film industry training.

We have by way of recreation a ball diamond becoming very close to completion in the downtown area. We have literally hundreds of jobs, the entire Workers Compensation operation centralized there, the jobs for the Department of Health, jobs for the Department of Family Services. I certainly am an admirer of Minister Epp and former Mayor Norrie. They just needed a better partner. * (1 340) Labour Force Skills Training Ms. Jean Friesen (Woiseley): Madam Speaker, we have raised the questions of skill shortages in Manitoba and Winnipeg on a regular basis in this House.

But it is not just the opposition who is raising this, but also the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses, the construction industry, Duff Roblin, and CIBC have all expressed concerns over many, many years. I would like to ask the Minister of Education to confirm the most recent KPMG report on Winnipeg which concludes that there is a serious and growing shortage of skilled people for high tech industries and that the growth of some industries, and hence Winnipeg itself, is constrained by this continuing shortage of skilled labour. Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): We certainly recognize the challenge implicit in the honourable member's question, but I do say it is a very, very different environment from the one we had in the mid '80s when there was massive unemployment in our province to today when we have jobs looking for skilled people.

We are pleased to have been part of the development of that "problem," and we are also very pleased to be part of the solution, for example the college growth fund which is enjoying this year an infusion of $4 million so that we can put another 1, 000 students to work in our college institutions in Manitoba to meet the very demand that we helped create as a government.

In addition, it is important to have colleges, universities and the workplace working closely together, which might be something new to honourable members opposite, but it is seen by us on this side as being the solution and something that will create opportunity in the future. That fund is amounting to $1. 3 million in terms of strategic measures to be taken in the post-secondary sphere. Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, the real issue is the decade of neglect of this government.

I would like to ask the minister: could the minister tell us why after 11 years in power the government's own report from the Economic Innovation Council last year directed the government to (1) initiate human resource policies to improve information technology training, and (

b) even directed them to produce an annual report forecasting supply and demand in this area? Surely, these are fundamental things a government should have done over 11 years in power. Mr. McCrae: Well, Madam Speaker, I will be so pleased to compare the performance of the past 11 years with the performance of the six and a half years previous to that. I cannot wait to be engaged in a discussion whereby the people of Manitoba can be reminded of the progress of the last few years.

Mini sters on this side of the House can speak more eloquently than I about the growth in capital investment, about the growth in exports from our province, about the growth in value added industries throughout this province, and all of the jobs that has created, bringing us to the point where we need to have a college growth fund and we need to have responses like that. They are not only responses, they are also on the

648 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 19 99 leading edge, getting people ready for the kinds of high-paying, high-tech jobs. I remind the honourable member what Nuala Beck said recently when she told us that some 39 percent of Manitobans were involved in high end, high-education employment and compared that with the rest of the world and found only one anywhere in the world that was any better than Manitoba and that- Madam Speaker: Order, please. * (1 345) Ms.

Friesen: Could the Minister of Education tell us how he has measured not just the decade of neglect but the five years of actual cuts to colleges and universities, in one year amounting to $22 milli on, the continuing cuts in actual dollars to public schools? How has that impacted upon the future of Winnipeg and upon the provision of a skilled labour force for this province? Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I find it quite incomprehensible that the honourable member for W olseley can expect to be believed when I see the progress that has been and is being made in Manitoba.

Here we are, just at the tail end of some of the worst economic problems that governments face and providing funding for our college sector to put I ,000 more students to work at their studies in this coming year, fully doubling, for example, the numbers of places at ACC for licensed practical nursing. These things are happening- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Mini ster of Education and Training, to complete his response. Mr.

McCrae: Madam Speaker, it might be remarkable to many but not to me that this is happening so soon after the second worst recession in the history of this century in this country, after the massive cutbacks coming from our federal government in respect to health and post-secondary education, and all the while this government has had to carry the debt, the burden of debt to financing left to us by honourable members opposite. Still we are able to make these improvements in our education system. Office of the Fire Commissioner Fire Code Inspections-Schools Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, at the beginning of this decade the Fi re Commissioner's office provided fire code inspections for some 700 Manitoba schools at no cost to the school divisions. Effective April 19 96, the government designated the Fire Commissioner's office as a special operating agency with the mandate to provide inspections on a fee-for-service basis, on a profit basis. It is our understanding that many Manitoba schools have not been inspected since at least 19 96 when the government last changed the mandate of the Fire Commissioner's office.

I want to ask the Minister of Education to confirm that some Manitoba schools have not had fire code inspections performed by the Fire Commiss ioner's office or other qualified inspectors in at least four years. Is this your new policy of only inspecting what can make money, not what is right for public safety? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Educat ion and Training): Madam Speaker, I do not have at my fingertips the information respecting where, when and how frequently inspections are done, so I will obtain information and make it available to the honourable member. *

(1350) Mr. Reid: Can the Minister of Labour then, since the Minister of Education does not know, explain why the Fire Commissioner's office is now making a profit by offloading the costs of fire code inspections on to personal care homes, on to daycares and on to schools? Is this the way you run your government? Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Labour. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind all honourable members this is not a time for debate. This is Question Period, and the - -

April 27, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 649 honourable Mini ster of Labour was recognized to respond to the question asked. Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I thank the member opposite for that question, because that gives me an opportunity to tell members here the new role of the Fire Commissioner's office in Manitoba. The Fire Commissioner's office has become a resource in order to instruct municipalities to offer opportunity for municipal officials to learn hoW" to do the fire inspection function in Manitoba.

They have a college out in Brandon which does a very fine function out there. Madam Speaker, I commend members opposite to find out more about the Fire Commissioner's office and the fact that they are the source of information, skill and resource in order that the safety and fire inspection of premises be done on a local level. Mr. Reid: Since those two members do not know, I pose my third question to the Premier, Madam Speaker.

Will the Premier explain why the Fire Commissioner's office can provide services to Libya, to Cuba, to Chile, to Brazil, to Argentina, but they cannot ensure that the inspections of our very schools to which our children go every single day are inspected by the Fire Commission er's office? Is this the way you operate your government? Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, because I take that matter as a serious issue, I will take the matter as notice and have the information that the member opposite has brought forward verified as to its accuracy and have the Minister of Labour bring back the answer. Children's Hospital Fatalities Inquest Report Status Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, one of the sorriest periods in Manitoba history of course was the occasion of the 12 deaths of the children at the Health Sciences Centre Children's Hospital.

In September when the inquest after four years wound up, the head of the inquest said, and I quote: I believe I will be able to formulate and finalize the report within the next few months, and some time early in the new year the report, I anticipate, will be delivered. My question to whomever minister wishes to respond is: can you please update us as to the exact status of that report with respect to the 12 deaths at Children's Hospital, insofar as it is very crucial to the planning of the hospital system and all of the changes that are anticipated in the next few years? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, that report has not been received as of yet. I am certainly prepared to follow up again when it can be anticipated. I gather from the most recent information I have been provided that it is still a few months before the report will be completed. But I am prepared to certainly look into the matter one more time and get back to the member opposite. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the minister might also report to the House, since we have been contacted by several of the parents in this regard who had antici pated at least recommendations from the report would be finalized, whether the minister can inquire whether or not recommendations with respect to the report can and will be forwarded in the near future so that these matters can be dealt with. It has been long standing, as we all know, for a long time, and clearly this issue should be dealt with as quickly as possible. * (1 355) Mr.

Stefanson: Again, certainly as part of my follow-up on the status of the report and various aspects and nature of what one can expect, I am certainly prepared to undertake the request from the member opposite, Madam Speaker. Children's Hospital Accountabi lity Review Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): My final supplementary to the minister is: since

650 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 19 99 significant changes are taking place with respect to Children's Hospital and some recommen dations that we have made, such as the interim intensive care beds that are being anticipated be put in place, can the minister indicate whether or not the planning with respect to Children's Hospital and accountabili ty in the hospital function in general will be reviewed in light of this report, which will obviously have recommendations dealing with accountabili ty and other matters as it relates to the operations of hospitals in Manitoba? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am glad the member acknowledges some of the announcements recently relative to some changes in terms of the intensive care unit for pediatrics at the Health Sciences Centre which is part of that. There are also going to be some additions of additional equipment required, an echocardiogram and other additions and improvements.

But his specific question as to the relationship to the full-scale development of the Health Sciences Centre, I am certainly prepared to look into the issue of how any other changes might interact with what will be ultimately a hundred-million dollar renovation and rejuvenation of the Health Sciences Centre. Health Care Facilities Capital Projects-Communi ty Contribution Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I look to the Minister of Health in the hope that he will acknowledge that the expectations built up by this government when it announces a capital program in excess of hundreds of millions of dollars-that they look to the government to be straightforward and honest with what they really and truly expect to construct. My question to the Minister of Health: does the government have guidelines in terms of criteria in terms of getting the projects off the ground, the shovel to be hitting the soil? Part of that is that 20 percent.

My question to the Mini ster is Health is: what percentage of the programs that are in that capital program actually have the community resources raised which would initia te the beginning of those programs? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, as I indicated to the member the other day, a good number of the capital projects, the $1 23-million health capital projects that were just recently announced will not require any community contribution.

I have also indicated that to the best of my knowledge, with the number of capital projects that are currently underway across Manitoba, the community contribution has not been an impediment because communities are able to make that contribution, in most cases an up-front contribution of 10 percent through a number of options and funding sources. I am certainly prepared to provide the member with detail as to which projects on that listing will require a community contribution, and I will undertake to do that. Emerson Health Care Centre Capital Projects-Communi ty Contribution Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, a supplementary question for the Minis ter of Health in the sense that, given that there already has been four announcements with respect to the Emerson health care facility, can he indicate to this Chamber when they actually initiated any sort of fundraising to get their percentage requirements? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, let us first of all recognize that in Manitoba there has always been a form of community contribution. If you go back several years, it used to be 50 percent.

Then it became that you had to contribute serviced land and other amenities to the facilities. Now the policy is that the total project is costed out, including the serviced land and so on, and then there is a community contribution of I 0 percent if it is done up front or 20 percent if it is done oveF ten years interest free. So, again, when we look at Emerson, that is a $5-million project approximately. The community contribution will be on an up-front basis of about $500,000.

If the community owns the land, which I believe is the case there, they will get credit for the land being contributed against that cost. Again, they then have options to look at any foundation funds that are in place. They have options to raise within the community and the surrounding area. They have the options of ha ving the - -

April 27, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 65 1 municipalities make a contribution. Again, communities have played a very active role in all of these polic ies, and I think that has been very healthy in terms of being absolutely certain we are getting the most appropriate facility in pla ce in all of our communities right throughout Manitoba. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I am sure the Mini ster of Health can appreciate that the expectation is- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Inkster was recognized for a final supplementary question to which there should be no

preamble. * (1 400) Mr. Lamoureux: Can the Minis ter of Health indicate to this House how much of that 10 percent actually has been raised, given that it does have an impact with respect to what the community's expectations are in terms of what this government's real intent is? So, in fairness to them, indicate to the House what the current status is. Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I can certainly undertake to determine the current status, but I think the member opposite has to recognize in the development of health capital projects we obviously work with the communities, we work with the regional health authorities within their region. They prioritize the various health capital projects. The Department of Health works with them in terms of determining the final allocation, the final projects that are going forward. Certainly, from the Central Regional Health Authority, the Emerson facility is one of the highest priorities.

So we have made a commitment to that project. I do not see the community contribution being an impediment for all of the reasons that I have outlined already. It has not been an impedime nt in any other area. Quite the opposite. Communities are ready, enthused and prepared to get on with their capital projects. We certainly expect that to be the case in the community of Emerson. First Nations Gaming Negotiations Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, I have some questions for the Minister responsible for Lotteries.

Two years ago the government released a Fi rst Nations gaming policy review, and this review stated that consolidation and refurbishment of Club Regent and McPhillips Street Station was expected to be completed by the spring of 19 99. I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Lotteries as to the state of negotiations with Fi rst Nations in Manitoba especially with respect to gaming. I would like to ask him to what degree the negotiations have been occurring with the First Nations of this province. Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, there are two particular issues in that area. One, of course, is the issue of aboriginal casinos; the second, of course, are a number of Fir st Nations who, when the first freeze and reduction in VL Ts came, were caught in a situation in that freeze because they were in the process of having their gaming agreements as First Nations concluded with the provincial government. So there are two sets of particular issues.

We have had recommendations made from a variety of committees and sources, and cabinet is still in the process of making decisions on these issues before we get into negotiations if they are warranted with the respective Fi rst Nations. Mr. Robinson: Madam Speaker, Saskatchewan has a model where an agreement was reached and signed four years ago and has had some success with bringing jobs, development and revenue to Fi rst Nations communities. I would like to ask why this government has been the only western province not to have an agreement on a Fi rst Nation casino in the province of Manitoba. Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, Manitoba was one, if not the first, jurisdiction, I believe, to begin the process of entering into gaming agreements with First Nations. Although those did not involve, in themselves, the casinos, they did establish a mechanism for Fi rst Nations to where they so chose within their jurisdictions to be involved in gaming. As I think the member is very well aware, the issue of expansion of casino operations in this province is one that has had a great public debate, and obviously I think we all

652 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 19 99 have to be somewhat cognizant of the feeling of Manitobans with respect to this issue. As I have indicated, a decision has not yet been made as to how we as a province will proceed on this matter. Mr. Robinson: Madam Speaker, it is widely known that Manitoba probably has more VL Ts per capita than any other province in Canada in First Nations communities. It is also estimated that 20 percent- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his question. Mr. Robinson: I am trying to pose a question, Madam Speaker.

It is estimated that 20 percent of the patrons of the Regent Street and McPhillips Street Station are aboriginal people. My question is simply this: is there a fear that in the event there is a casino operated by Fir st Na tions people it would give competition to the Province of Manitoba? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would indicate very clearly to the member that that is not a fear at all.

In fact, if one looks at the development of gaming in our province, I think there are now some 600 tour buses a year that frequent our province, bringing people in from outside to partici pate in gaming, and it is estimated that there is at least another 400 potential tour buses coming into our province. So the industry is one that has had some growth driven by people from outside of our jurisdiction coming here to enter into gaming. Madam Speaker, I think the whole concern for any government dealing with this particular issue is the feelings of Manitobans.

There is a debate among Manitobans about gaming, how much, concerns about the effects of gaming, and I am sure that the leadership in the Fir st Nations community must experience the same debate too within their communities. It is a very difficult issue, I think for all of us in public life, to wrestle with because there is such a great variety of points of view, all of which have some very legitimate concerns on both sides of the argument. Health Care Facilities Food Services-Patient Weight Losses Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, responding to an issue I took as notice from the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) the other day. The other day the member for Crescentwood tabled information in this House having to do with an issue of weight loss for patients at the Deer Lodge facility. I undertook to look into the matter and to get back. I would like to table some information, a release from Deer Lodge and the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, for this House. It outlines that the new food service at Deer Lodge is not causing weight loss.

It goes on to say that: "There has been no change in weight patterns among residents of Deer Lodge Centre since the new food service was introduced." A second weight audit was conducted last week by the Winnipeg Hospital Authority Rehab/Geriatrics Team, who obviously are the experts in this area, at Deer Lodge as a response to some suggestion. "T he results of the audit were consistent with weight patterns of a long-term and geriatric care centre." In fact, "the average weight loss was greater before the USSC food was served at Deer Lodge." I quote- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable Minister of Health, to complete his response. Mr. Stefanson: It is a very serious issue, Madam Speaker, and Dr. Elizabeth Boutscha, the medical director of the geriatrics team, says: "'R esults have been consistent. For those who have chronic illness, there is an inevitable loss of weight associated with physical and cognitive decline. Many clients take medications that can affect weight." For example, certain of them lead to weight gains, others lead to weight losses, and she outlined the changes over that period.

But I think what is equally as important is out of the 36 records that were tabled by the member for Crescentwood, only three had no errors. So the information provided was either -- - -

April 27, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 653 inaccurate or manipulated or that was done by the member opposite, because it is absolutely incorrect. Less than 10 percent of the information provided had any degree of accuracy, and that is absolutely fundamentally wrong. When we come to this House- * (1410 ) Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr ..

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I thank the minister for tabling the information which I actually received yesterday and which I note-actually on the page he was quoting from-absolutely to the tenth of a pound confirms the data that we released last week, to the tenth of a pound: from July '98 to October '98 average weight loss, 2.5 kilograms, exactly 5. 4 pounds, which is exactly what we tabled, to the tenth of a pound. Will the minister confirm that far- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Crescentwood, to quickly pose his question now. Mr.

Sale: Will the minister confirm that far from an acceptable state of affairs, the continuing weight loss has now caused Deer Lodge Centre's staff to order a very wide range of blood work and other tests to ascertain why patients in that facili ty have lost on average 22 pounds since last July? Will he confirm that diagnostic work is now underway? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, it is shameful what this member does, because again, he is absolutely wrong with what he says that the average that they showed in that chart that they tabled was 5.4 pounds; in fact, the average is 1. 6 pounds, a significant difference.

He only had three right out of 36. Out of 36 records, he had three right, less than 10 percent. What kind of an accuracy ratio is that? That is pathetic. So either the information was incorrectly provided to him, or he is either incompetent in terms of bringing it here, or he manipulates it when he brings it here. In either case, that is absolutely unacceptable. When we bring inf ormation to this House, it should be accurate, particularly when we talk about health care issues and the health care of the citizens of Manitoba. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister explain to the House how data that is tabled with numbers against patients, no names, no initials, no identif ying information, no ward identified, how is he able to tell this House that there are any errors in this data, and how can he explain that the data show a weight loss from November to March of 5.4 pounds on average, exactly what the data from Deer Lodge shows, precisely? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, put quite simply, obviously Deer Lodge, the WHA, the physicians, everybody involved, took this issue very seriously, and they dedicated the resources to go and try to track down what the source of this information was, even though, again, members opposite like to bring anonymous information. They will not bring any sourcing of it. They were able to determine what the source of these 36 records were. They were able to determine that only three out of the 36 were accurate, and again- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable Minister of Health, to quickly complete his response. Mr. Stefanson: Well, again, Madam Speaker, so they were able to confirm that only three out of 36 were accurate, a pathetic performance on the part of the member opposite, and one can only wonder what his objective is but nothing better than to try and scare people, to try and scare families. That is absolutely shameful when it comes to the health care of Manitobans. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Rulings Madam Speaker: I have two rulings for the House.

654 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 19 99 The Deputy Speaker on April 7 took under advisement a point of order raised by the honourable member from Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) about language he claimed had been used in reference to him by the honourable Minister of Urban Aff airs (Mr. Reimer). The Deputy Speaker, when taking the matter under advisement, undertook to examine Hansard to see what record there was of the exchange. I have read the Hansard of April 7. The minister did not have the floor, and there is no record in Hansard of any words spoken by him.

The audio tapes have been listened to, and they show no indication of the comments of the Minister of Urban Affairs. Therefore the Chair is unable to rule on the point of order. * (1 420) On April 12 , 19 99, the opposition House leader during Question Period raised a point of order respecting words spoken by the honourable Fi rst Minister (Mr. Fi lmon) about the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) when the First Minister was responding to a question posed by the member.

The opposition House leader contended that the honourable Fi rst Minister had attributed motives and had asked that the unparliamentary comments be withdrawn. Having reviewed the Hansard for April 12, 19 99, I would agree with the opposition House leader. I would therefore request the honourable Fi rst Minister to withdraw the words complained of. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Yes, Madam Speaker, I would be happy to withdraw those remarks. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable First Minister. On April 13, during Question Period, the honourable member for The Maples (Mr.

Kowalski) raised a point of order respecting an answer provided by the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Newman) to a question posed by the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). I took the matter under advisement in order to review Hansard and determine precisely what the minis ter said. Hansard shows that the minis ter stated: " the deal is not completed yet, and I would be very interested in knowing whether the Liberal Party of the province of Manitoba does support the deal in principle and just what-" The honourable member for The Maples indeed did have a point of order.

Question Period is not a time for debate, and when answering questions a minister should not provoke debate. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS World Wildlife Fund Report Mr. Ben Sveinson (La Verendrye): Madam Speaker, today the World Wildlife Fund released its I 998-99 Endangered Spaces progress report, and I am pleased that Manitoba is among Canada's leaders in wil derness protection. Manitoba's B-minus grade is now the highest grade in the country, given that Ontario's grade is under review.

Manitoba's progress in establishing protected areas is directly related to the co-operative relationships fostered by the 19 98 memorandum of understanding with Manitoba's First Nations, in addition to support from the Mining Association of Manitoba. The WWF pointed out in its announcement today that the two provinces receiving the highest grades both had the personal involvement of their respective provincial Premiers. Premier Gary Filmon has championed the effort in Manitoba and is the only Premier who has been in office throughout the entirety of the WWF's Endangered Spaces campaign.

When the Endangered Spaces campaign began in 19 89, Manitoba had only .6 percent or 354,000 hectares of its land base protected. Today I am pleased to announce we are at 8.3 percent or 5.4 million hectares. Last week, our government announced the creation of three new park reserves: Chitek Lake, Poplar/Nanowin River, Long Point, a new ecological reserve, Whitemouth Island, increased protection for eight wildlife management areas - -

April 27, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 655 and the Douglas Marsh within the Canadian Forces Base at Shilo. The staff are actively working on new areas for next year, the final year of the WWF's 10 - year Endangered Spaces Program. There are a number of areas of special interest that we are optimistic can be advanced during the last year of the program. In fact, the Long Point park reserve creates interim protection for a component for the proposed Manitoba Lowlands national park that the World Wildlife Fund targeted for next year.

Manitoba and Canada are anxious to work with the Fi rst Nations and industry partners to meet the WWF's challenge to establish the new national park. In closing, I wish to assure all Manitobans that, in order to protect and conserve our natural heritage for future generations, we intend to meet our original commitment to complete a network of protected areas that is representative of Manitoba's diverse landscapes. Thank you. Provincial Debt Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I would like to put a few words on the record about the debt in the province of Manitoba.

I know the members opposite are forever criticizing the NDP for a debt that increased during the Pawley years in government, but they want to ignore the fact that that was a period of very, very high interest rates, double-digit interest rates. It is a period of time when many other provinces, most other provinces and the federal government also increased the debt burden, but I believe members on the government side are deluding themselves perhaps with fond hopes or they are believing their own propaganda.

So I am suggesting that they look at their own books, look at their own figures and find that the debt per capita for general purposes in the province of Manitoba has gone up enormously since the Filmon government took office in 19 88-89. In 19 88-89, the per capita debt in the province of Manitoba was $4,750, every man and woman $4,750 each. As of December 31, in the minister's own document there is the number-what is the per capita debt? $6,049. It is an increase of 27.3 percent in the per capita debt in the province of Manitoba.

So much for fiscal management, so much for great economy, so much for all the great things you are doing. Madam Speaker, those are the facts. Members opposite want to delude themselves. They want to ignore it, but that is the fact, just as the member from-the Minister of Education (Mr. McCrae) was going on about job creation and investment priority. If he would look at the facts, he would find that the rate of job creation was greater under the Pawley NDP government than it has been under this government. The figures are there. I invite the minister to look at the figures.

He will see the rate of increase in jobs was far better under the NDP government than it has been under the last I 0 years of this government. Thank you. Viking Motor Inn Reopening Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, this past Saturday I had the pleasure of joining the owners of the Viking Motor Inn, Rick and Monica Kalyn and John and Janice Strutynski at the hotel's official reopening. Six months ago the restaurant and the nightclub portions of this popular Gimli establishment were destroyed by fire.

Even in the face of this devastation the decision was quickly made to rebuild, and the people of the Gimli area are certainly pleased that the Viking is back in business. The three parts of the business, Rick's Two Friends' nightclub, Gordon Lee's Chinese Restaurant and the 21 -unit motel are all very important for tourism in the Gimli area. In the summertime, visitors from all over find a nice room, a great meal and an entertaining evening at the Viking. The restaurant and the nightclub are also popular among the people of the community year-round.

So I would just like to take this opportunity to once again congratulate the Kalyns and the Strutynskis on the reopening of the Viking Motor Hotel and to wish them even greater success in the future. Thank you. Bombertown Production Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, last Saturday night at Flin Flon's R.H. Channing auditorium, my wife and I, along with

656 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 27, 19 99 hundreds of other northerners experienced a delightful new musical entitled Bombertown. Mark and Crystal Kolt and the 15 0-member volunteer cast from the Flin Flon region put on a truly magnificent production. Bombertown was an explosive multimedia event celebrating the 19 57 Memorial Cup victory of the Flin Flon Bombers over the heavily favoured Ottawa Junior Canadiens. The 15 0-minute two-act performance, full of original songs, captured in a most dynamic and creative fashion that upbeat feeling of hometown pride that first galvanized the town in 19 57.

Bombertown was a sophisti cated blend of sound, colour, costuming and set design. It was a blend of history and nostalgia. It was a story about hard-rock mining and hockey, a story about love and northern pride. It was our story. Bombertown was a pe rfect marriage of sports and culture. I only wish that people south of 53 could have had the chance to see this original and powerful musical. I am sure that all members in this Chamber are happy to join with me in expressing profound thanks to the many volunteers who made Bombertown such a successful musical. Thank you, Madam Speaker. * (14 30) Wally Fox-Decent Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I wanted to take this opportunity, on behalf of the party, to congratulate the efforts of Wally Fox-Decent. When the province of Manitoba and indeed our country was in a crisis situation during constitutional debates, Wally Fox-Decent did a first-class job in guiding Manitoba with our response, an all-party response. He was able to build upon a consensus.

Yesterday, it pleased Manitobans to see a tentative agreement, and we will have to wait and see what is actually voted on from the membership of our nurses, but suffice to say we applaud the individu als sitting down around the table and particularly Mr. Fox-Decent, who obviously has great ability in bringing different people at the table in order to handle a situation. The real winner is going to be all Manitobans as we realize the important role that our nurses and other health care professions play in providing what most Manitobans hold so close to their hearts, and that is our health care system. Thank you.

Committee Chang es Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections be amended as follows: the member for Brandon for the vacancy. This change was moved during the April 26, 19 99, meeting of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections, and the same change is now being moved in the House so that the official records can be updated accordingly. Madam Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes), seconded by the honourable member for Dauphin (Mr.

Struthers), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections be amended as follows: the honourable member for Dauphin for the vacancy, and this change was moved during the April 26 meeting of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections. The same change is now being moved in the House so that official records can be updated accordingly. Agreed? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, just on House business, I am looking to the opposition House leader (Mr.

Ashton) just so he is aware of the point I make. I would like to- -

April 27, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 657 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am certain all members want to hear what the order of House business will be today, and I am experiencing great difficulty hearing it. Mr. Praznik: By way of information for the House, on Thursday, as has been announced, it will be budget day, and the House will be sitting at 1 :30. The budget will be delivered following Question Period. As we examine our rules, I think there is some issue as to whether or not on that particular day the House would sit in the morning.

I think if you would canvass the House in the interests of giving clarity to that, you will find that there is agreement in the House to confirm that the Assembly will be sitting on Thursday morning at 10 a.m. as a scheduled sitting. At that time, it is the government's intention to bring forward the resolution which appears on the Order Paper with respect to rules for the election of a Speaker in subsequent sessions or subsequent legislatures. So, first of all, I think if you canvass the House, that if there is any defect in our rules it will be dealt with by unanimous consent.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave of the House to sit on Thursday morning as well as the regular 1: 30 p.m. sitting on Thursday-10 a.m.? [agreed] Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would ask if you could call for introduction of second reading the bills as they appear on the Order Paper. That would be Bills 4, 5, 6, 9, 11 , 12 , and 15 . Then I believe you will find that there would be unanimous consent to allow for the report stage for Bill 17 . SECOND READINGS Bill 4-The Law Fees Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Fin ance (Mr. Gilleshammer), that Bill 4, The Law Fees Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les frais judicia ires et modifications correlatives), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Toews: On October 22, 19 98, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that the Ontario regulation prescribing a fee structure for the probating of estates was unconstitutional. The unconstitutional aspect of the Ontario probate fee, according to the decision of the court, was that it was located in a regulation rather than a statute enacted by the Legislature.

Although the Supreme Court's decision dealt solely with Ontario's probate fees, the decision has potential application in jurisdictions across Canada where probate fees are similarly structured. The legislatures of Ontario, Newfoundland and New Brunswick have all responded to the Supreme Court's decision by enacting appropriate remedial legislation. It is expected that other jurisdictions will soon follow suit. Manitoba's probate fees are significantly lower than those in Ontario. They are roughly 40 percent of those charged in that province.

However, the graduated structure of Manitoba's fee is similar to the graduated structure in Ontario, and it is, in part, this aspect of Ontario's fee which led the Supreme Court to its conclusion. The result has been uncertainty about the constitutional status of Manitoba's probate fee. The purpose of this bill, Madam Speaker, is to bring certainty back to Manitoba's probate practice by moving the probate fee from its current place in a regulation to a statute.

The bill will have no impact on the actual probate charges being collected, which will continue at exactly the same levels as under the existing fee structure. The probate fee is currently found in the law fees regulation which was made by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council pursuant to powers vested in him under The Law Fees Act. With this bill the probate fee will be removed from the regulation to the act. The act will correspondingly be named The Law Fees and Probate Charge Act. I would like to make it abundantly clear that this is a change in form only and that it will have

658 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 19 99 no impact on existing or past probate practice in Manitoba. Probate fees were charged on a graduated scale in Manitoba as early as the 18 80s and by regulation since 19 59. This bill will ensure that those fees that were calculated, paid, and collected under those regulations will be validated constitutionally in a manner consistent with the recent pronouncement of the Supreme Court of Canada.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, I would like to add that the probate fee structure has been administered, amended, and enforced in good faith by governments of all stripes in this province. With this bill, this government is responding directly to the uncertainties that have been caused by the decision of the Supreme Court of Canada. This bill will ensure that the revenues generated in the past are protected, and that existing probate practices continue. Thank you. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I move, seconded by the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that debate be adjourned.

Motion agreed to. *( 14 40) Bill 5-The Highway Traffic Amendment, Off-Road Vehicles Amendment and Consequential Amendme nts Act Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Bill 5, The Highway Traffic Amendment, Off-Road Vehicles Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ie Code de Ia route et Ia

Loi sur Ies vehicules a caractere non routier et modifications correlatives, be now read a second time and referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, this particular legislation will address a number of im portant issues, one of course being the drinking-and driving, driving-while-disqualified counter measures for operators of off-road vehicles.

I want to in particular at this time thank the former Minis ter of Highways and Transportation, who did a great deal of work in bringing this bill to the stage where I, as the new Minister of Highways, am able to introduce it here today. I know it was an issue in which he felt very, very strongly, and I want to thank him for his excellent work. I am very honoured to have this piece of legislation here today. Madam Speaker, these particular provisions do a number of things.

They will add a new element to our government's highly successful drinking-and-driving and driving-while disqualified countermeasures strategy. In 19 89, this administration introduced some of the toughest laws in Canada against motorists who drink and drive. Alcohol- and traffic-related fatalities decreased significantly following introduction of those countermeasures. In fact, I dare say that today there are many Manitobans who, if it had not been for the actions of this government, would not be alive today.

In I 997, Manitoba saw a dramatic rise in snowmobile fatalities, almost doubling the average rate from the previous five years. We saw a growth in the rate of fatalities from 7 to 13. Madam Speaker, as an MLA who represents an eastern Manitoba constituency with a lot of snowmobile clubs and a rather very extensive snowmobile network where some of these fatalities occurred, I know all too well just how dangerous it can be to be operating a snowmobile while impaired.

What is interesting, Madam Speaker, of that increase in fatalities, clearly in 65 percent of those collisi ons, not just the fatalities, but in collisions, involving off-road vehicles and snowmobiles, alcohol was a factor. Si xty-five percent. A working group was convened by the previous minister to look at problems, at this particular problem.

It included representatives of the Department of Highways, the Department of Justice, the Department of Natural Resources, the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and Snowman, which is the umbrella organization representing snowmobile clubs across our province. Based on recommendations of that working group, the government is proposing to extend - -

April 27, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 659 through this legislation, drinking-and-driving, driving-while-disqualified countermeasures to operators of of f-road vehicles. We will also introduce new a disqualification from OR V operation. Disqualification will apply wherever the privilege to drive a motor vehicle is suspended as a result of an alcohol-related or driving-while-disqualified infraction. Disquali fication will apply whether the off-road vehicle operator holds a driver's licence or not.

Off-road vehicles will be subject to vehicle impoundment if the operator is found to be driving while disqualified. Extending the drinking-and driving, driving-while-disqualified counter measures to operators of off-road vehicles will provide enforcement agencies with stronger legislative sanctions. The second init iative to be dealt with under this legislation is the off-road maintenance machines. This is a new subcategory of off-road vehicles which is now being proposed to be introduced through this legislation.

Off-road maintenance machines are specialized maintenance vehicles used by snowmobile clubs and ski resorts to groom trails and slopes, similar type implements of husbandry, and special mobile machines that currently exist under the act. Neither of these categories of vehicles is required to be registered or insured, but all off road vehicles are. Off-road maintenance machines are being recognized as a separate category of off-road vehicle in order to establish exemption from registration. The requirement for liability insurance will be maintained.

Registration exemption will provide a small financial benefit to nonprofit snowmobile clubs. The third issue being dealt with by this legislation, Madam Speaker, is liability protection regarding off-road vehicle by-law approval. New provisions are being proposed to ensure that the Minis ter of Highways does not assume undue liabi lity as a result of approval of off-road vehicle by-laws by a municipality. Municipalities submitting off-road vehicle by-laws to the department seeking approval to permit mixed snowmobile and motor vehicle traffic on highways are the subject of this particular

section of the act. Municipalities are also protected from liability in the event of an accident involving an off-road vehicle. The Minister of Highways is not protected from any liabili ty on these roads where he is not the traffic authority. Legal advice to the department has indicated that the minister's approval of off-road vehicle by-laws might be seen as a link to responsibil ity for all of f-road vehicle activity under the by-law.

This new provision will provide the minister with liabili ty protection in the event of an off-road vehicle accident or an off-road vehicle route that was approved at the request of a municipality. Proposed amend ments also limit the requirement for ministerial approval of off-road vehicle by-laws to only those that affect provincial highways and roads. This of course extends or gives greater authority to municipalities for roads within their j urisdi cti on. Madam Speaker, as I am sure you are aware, across our province we have seen a greater growth in the snowmobile industry, the sport of snowmobiling.

This particular legislation ensures that those who partake of that sport can travel safely on those trails, hopefully without fear of encountering a fellow snowmobiler or of f-road vehicle driver who is under the influence of alcohol and poses a threat to them. As well, it I think gives greater ability to see appropriate rules made by municipalities to allow for off-road vehicles to use roads at appropriate times of the year in appropriate ways without putting undue liability on the minister and consequently the taxpayer.

I would hope that members of the Assembly see fit to give passage to this important piece of legislation. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), that debate be now adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill fr The Highway Traffic Amendment Act Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, I would move, again seconded by the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Bill 6, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act; Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route, be now read a

660 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 19 99 second time and be referred to a committee of the House. Motion presented. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, this is the second of the two bills being introduced by this department in this session. It addresses a variety of housekeeping amendments required to be made to The Highway Traffic Act to deal with a number of particular issues that have come up over the last while. The first one, Madam Speaker, is the use of farm truck by emergency medical responders.

The amendments being proposed through this act will allow farm trucks to be used by a farmer in the course of his or her duties as a volunteer firefighter or emergency medical responder and receive compensation for that use. Currently, farm trucks are not permitted to be used for emergency response activities, as they are not recognized as a permitted use under The Highway Traffic Act for a farm vehicle. As use is not prescribed, vehicle insurance is invalid if an accident occurs while the vehicle is used for emergency response activity.

The truck must be reregistered in a different class, usually at a higher cost to the farmer. * (14 50) Emergency responders play a critical role in Manitoba's rural communities. Additional costs, of course, discourage their continued involvement. This government supports the use of farm trucks by volunteer firefighters and emergency medical responders, and I think that the passage of this amendment will, I think, send a signal to those individuals who come forward to volunteer, that they will not be inconvenienced by their service to their community.

The second area, Madam Speaker, is the increased speed of operation for tractors. Amendments proposed here are being made at the request of the farm community to increase the maximum speed of operation of farm tractors on a highway. Currently, The Highway Traffic Act restricts tractors to 40 kilometres per hour. This was not an issue until recently as tractors manufactured in North America were designed to travel only at a top speed of 40 kilometres an hour. An Honourable Member: Then agriculture went into high gear. Mr.

Praznik: High-speed tractors imported from Europe in that high gear, as the Minis ter of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) states, as agriculture is moving ahead in our province-thanks to his foresight, thanks to his foresight-are becoming increasingly popular with our farm community. These tractors are engineered to truck standards, and they operate at speeds of up to 70 kilometres per hour. These amendments, if accepted by the Assembly, will harmonize speed of operation for all types of agricultural equipment. Implements of husbandry currently are permitted to operate at a maximum speed of 70 kilometres an hour.

Higher speed of operation allows for greater efficiency of that particular tractor in the farm operation, and given the fact that the original restriction at 40 kilometres was, I suspect, designed around the maximum speed of tractors, this is an appropriate time, I believe, to be raising that, given the engineering and better vehicles, tractors, that are now available in the marketplace for Manitoba farmers. The third area of amendment in this act, Madam Speaker, is with respect to prohibited radio receiving sets.

This amendment will expand the range of radio frequencies identified for police use or emergency response use. The Winnipeg Police Service has installed a new trunk radio system. The frequency bands of this new system are not now currently identified in The Highway Traffic Act. The Highway Traffic Act prohibits equipping a vehicle with a radio capable of receiving police emergency response transmissions within specified ranges. Exception is provided for persons such as ham radio operators, taxi drivers, courier companies, et cetera.

The intent is to prevent persons from using these transmissions to aid them in committing a criminal act or interfering with emergency responses. New provisions will also allow for confiscation of radios when charges are laid and for the Department of Justice to determine if the radio is to be forfeited or returned. Madam Speaker, these amendments - -

April 27, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 661 were requested, I understand, by the City of Winnipeg police department. The fourth area of amendment is the authority by the minister to waive fees. Provisions proposed in this legislation will provide the authority for the Minister of Highways to waive fees at his or her discretion. This authority, of course, will be delegated to department administrators who are responsible for programs that charge fees for services.

The registrar of motor vehicles has historically waived fees on the basis of longstanding policy, for example, temp orary registration fees during emergency situations such as the flood. So, in 19 97, there were a whole host of fees that the law required to be charged that were waived as a matter of departmental policy, but, quite frankly, the authority to do so did not exist. I do not think anyone in the province would argue against the use of that decision made within the department to waive those fees, but I think it is important that we bring our law up to date to allow for it.

As well, last year, approval in principle was granted by cabinet to the department to consider the waiving of fees for replacement driver's licences for victims of crime. This is also another area that I think would be covered by these amendments. Our legal counsel, of course, has advised that such authority should be clearly established under The Highway Traffic Act. New provision based on simi lar waiver authorities provided under The Vital Statistics Act and The Fi nancial Adminis tration Act are the models for the amendments being proposed here today.

The fifth area is there are several amendments being introduced to address a variety of motor carrier issues. Amendments are being made to clarify types of sanctions and combinations of sanctions that may be imposed on errant mode of carriers following hearings by both the department and the Motor Transport Board. The intent is to ensure carriers under stand impli cations of failing to comply with requirements of The Highway Traffic Act and regulations by clearly identifying sanctions that may be imposed following a hearing. Sanctions identified reflect long-standing department and Transport Bo ard practice.

This will not result in new sanctions being imposed, just ensuring that what has become practice of the board is in fact fully in compliance with the act. Also, new provisions are being proposed to allow motor carriers to appeal show-cause decisions to the Motor Transport Board. The act will provide for an independent review of the department's sanctioning of motor carriers. The sixth area is for co-drivers and hours of service log book requirements. Amendments will clarify the application of hours of service log book requirements to co-drivers of public service vehicles and commercial trucks.

The change is precipitated by a court ruling. The Highway Traffic Act being amended to clearly identify or indicate co-driver obligations regarding hours of service log books, and requirements for immediate production on request of a peace officer, I believe, are important given that recent ruling. This will ensure consistency and avoid any possible misinterpretation in the future. The seventh area is the registrar's authority to maintain motor carrier records and conduct hearings.

Amendments will, if passed, move responsibility for motor carrier record keeping and show-cause hearings from the registrar of motor vehicles to the Minister of Highways, the change precipitated by an organizational restructuring within the department. The depart ment has created a new division to serve the needs of the trucking industry. Motor carrier issues now dealt with by a division of transports are now dealt with by the division of Transportation Safety and Regulatory Services.

The minister will delegate responsibility for motor carrier record keeping and show-cause hearings to the director of transport safety and regulations. The problem, as I have indicated the ability to restructure the department, was really impeded by the current act because it made a specific delegation. By changing that delegation or that authority to the minister, it can be delegated to whomever the appropriate officials are within the department however that department is organized at a given time.

So there is much more flexibility for the department to organize itself to better suit the needs of its client base and the people of Manitoba.

662 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 19 99 Madam Speaker, as I have indicated, these are a number of amendments to The Highway Traffic Act, and I hope that the House will see fit to give them passage. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), that debate be now adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 9-The Securities Amendment and Commodi ty Futures and Consequential Amendments Amendment Act Hon. Shirley Render (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Mr.

Radcliffe), that Bi ll 9, The Securities Amendment and Commodity Futures and Consequential Amendments Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les valeurs mobilieres et Ia

Loi sur les contrats a terme de marchandises et apportant des modifications correlatives), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee ofthis House. Motion presented. Mrs. Render: In the past number of years this government has established a number of special operating agencies. The Manitoba Securities Commission became a special operating agency effective April 1, 19 99. It is the fourth special operating agency in the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, joining the Vital Statistics agency, the Companies Office and the Property Registry.

Bill 9, Madam Speaker, consists of technical amendments to The Securities Act and The Commodity Futures Act related to the change in status for the commission. Under The Fi nancial Administration Act, all funds received by government agencies must be paid into the Consolidated Fund; however, The Special Operating Agencies Fin ancing Authority Act specifically overrides these provisions and directs the SOA funds to be deposited in trust within the Consolidated Fund, but this act does not override one

section of The Securities Act that directs funds to be payable into the Consolidated Fund. * (1 500) This

section of The Securities Act will be repealed. In addition, provisions of The Securities Act and The Commodity Futures Act provide for ref unds to be paid from the Consolidated Fund, at the direction of the Minister of Fin ance (Mr. Gilleshammer). In Bill 9, these refund provisions will be amended to allow the director of the special operating agency to direct refunds from the trust account within the Consolidated Fund account. Madam Speaker, as the Manitoba Securities Commission became a special operating agency on April 1, 19 99, the provisions of Bill 9 are to be retroactive to that date.

Special operating agency status for the Manitoba Securities Commission will provide the commission with greater flexibility of operation to better enable it to maintain and expand its role in the protection of Manitoba investors in ensuring that the securities market is fair, efficient and transparent. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): I move that debate be now adjourned. Madam Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable member for Flin Flon, seconded by the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that debate be now adjourned. Agreed? Agreed and so ordered.

Billll -The Statute Law Amendment (Nunavut) Act, 1999 Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Mini ster of Agriculture (Mr. Enns ), that Bill 11 , The Statute Law Amendment (Nunavut) Act, 19 99 (Loi de 19 99 modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives (Nunavut)), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. - -

April 27, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 663 Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure to introduce for second reading Bi ll 11 , The Statute Law Amendment (Nunavut) Act, 19 99. The amendments to The Crown Lands Act, The Income Tax Act, The Real Property Act, The Registry Act and The Water Rights Act are necessary to ensure that the legislative arrangements previously in place with the Northwest Territories are also in effect for the newly established territory ofNunavut. All the laws of the Northwest Territories are being duplicated for Nunavut.

This amendment simply ensures that the necessary revisions to Manitoba statutes are in place. Manitoba congratulates the people of Nunavut for the creation of their territory and expresses its ongoing commitment to work with them as another government. This includes ensuring that the needs of its residents are fully addressed in the law. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): I move, seconded by the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill12- The Statute Law Amendment Act, 1999 Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. Render), that Bi ll 12 , The Statute Law Amendment Act, 19 99 (Loi de 19 99 modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives ), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, Bill 12 , The Statute Law Amendment Act, 19 99, is before us primarily for the purpose of correcting minor errors in the statutes.

Honourable members will note that the bill corrects typographical numbering and other editing errors in the English and French versions of the acts. There are, however, some substantive matters included in the bill which I would like to mention. Bi ll 12 includes amendments to The Crown Corporations Public Review and Accountability Act to ensure that the legislation reflects the practice in this House as to distributing copies of reports. As well, The Legislative Assembly Act is being amended to maintain the current state of the law with regard to Legislative Assembly records.

The French version of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act is being amended to correct a translation error in a provision dealing with death benefits payable to nondependent survivors of deceased automobile accident victims. The Real Property Act is being amended in the provisions relating to the registration of amendments to existing mortgages to remove the requirement for consent of other registrants where the amendment merely adds a covenanter and to clarify priorities where the principal amount is amended. Madam Speaker, I believe that concludes my remarks on Bi ll 12 .

I will be ple ased to discuss the bill further at committee stage. Thank you. Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Interlake (Mr. C. Evans), that debate be now adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill15--The Cemeteries Amendment Act Hon. Shirley Render (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Bill 15 , The Cemeteries Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les cimetieres), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mrs. Render: Madam Speaker, the amendments in Bill 15 concern

Part III of The

664 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 19 99 Cemeteries Act dealing with perpetual care funds. They will benefit both the industry and its customers. Under The Cemeteries Act, a portion of the money received by a for-profit cemetery owner for a plot or other space in a cemetery, columbarium or mausoleum must be paid into a fund to be used for perpetual care. This perpetual care fund is paid over to a trust company trustee. The income from the fund is paid by the trustee to the cemetery owner to cover the perpetual care costs.

At present, Madam Speaker, the owner must submit the accounts of the fund to the Court of Queen's Bench every five years for examination, audit and passing. Through Bill 15, we are transferring the authority to audit and pass these accounts to the Public Utilities Board. The public will not be affected by the change, but we believe that transferring this authority will enable the court to attend to its other important business.

In addition, a Public Utilities Board review of perpetual care accounts is consistent with the board's responsibility as a licensing authority for cemeteries and will make possible more timely and effective reviews, with no net increased cost to government. Secondly, Madam Speaker, we are proposing to allow the board to authorize the payout of funds in cases where conditions for cemetery licensing no longer exists. This is an amendment of some importance for both the industry and its customers.

Customers expect and, in some cases, are entitled by contract to have perpetual care funds placed in an irrevocable trust. The amendment to the act will allow the board to alter that obligation in the public interest. At the same time, it will enable the board to attach very strict conditions on the use of the fund and the income. * (1510 ) Madam Speaker, this bill will allow the disbursement of funds that are now held in trust at some administrative cost in industry for no useful purpose.

The amendment will allow the board to authorize the disbursement of funds paid into trust for a cemetery that never went into operation. In addition, cemeteries that change status to nonprofit organizations will be allowed to use perpetual care funds and the interest thereon consistent with their purpose and only under conditions allowed by the board. Madam Speaker, these amendments will provide greater consumer protection and at the same time are sensitive to the needs of the marketplace. For these reasons, they are in the interest of the public. Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellington): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that debate be now adjourned. Motion agreed to. * * * Madam Speaker: Report stage-is there leave of the House to proceed to report stage on Bill 17 ? An Honourable Member: Leave. Madam Speaker: Leave? Leave has been granted. REPORT STAGE Bi11 17- The Elections Amendment and Elections Finances Amendment Act Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded again by the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Enns), a fine friend to all, that Bill 17 , The Elections Amendment and Elections Fin ances Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi electorale et Ia

Loi sur le financement. des campagnes electorales, as amended and reported from the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections, be concurred in. Motion agreed to. * * * Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, if you could please call for continuation of debate on third -

April 27, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 665 reading, Bill 2, The Electoral Divisions Amend ment Act. DEBATE ON THIRD READINGS Bill 2-The Electoral Divisions Amendment Act Madam Speaker: Third reading, Bill 2 (The Electoral Divisions Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les circonscriptions electorales), on the proposed motion of the honourable Fi rst Minis ter (Mr. Fi lmon), standing in the name of the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? Some Honourable Members: No. Madam Speaker: No? Leave has been denied. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, I do know that we have a few more comments.

Our Leader may wish to add a couple of comments, as well, on this, but what I did want to do is add to some of the comments that were made earlier on and in particular point out that we in this caucus respect the independent nature of the boundaries report. While there were some improvements, certainly as we saw them from some of the original maps, to the credit of the Boundaries Commission, I think it is important to put on the record our concern about the issue of representation, particularly in northern Manitoba.

I want to stress that we do not expect necessarily the Boundaries Commission to be able to deal with this problem in its entirety, although this is the second time we have had a boundaries commission in Manitoba that has had the ability to go to the 25 percent varia tion. While certainly compared to the last set of boundaries there has been some movement towards that, I would point out that we are still left with the situation whereby there is, I believe, a need for further reflection on the kinds of barriers that we referenced earlier on in the debate.

I want to stress that we are concerned about the fact that there is a real reason why the 25 percent is in place. I think it is unfortunate in a way that the wording is placed in such a way as to allow some flexibility. Obviously, it is difficult to require that boundaries be an exact percentage in terms of variation. I state that because, obviously, communities do not necessarily add up to a nice even number, so there is some intention in the act of allowing for that flexibili ty.

But I do not believe it was the intent of the act when it was originally passed by this Legislature to have 25 percent in place, and then have the Boundaries Commission ignore that. The Bo undaries Commission in 19 89 did that because of fear of the Supreme Court. They feared there would be difficulty related to the Charter of Rights, and I want to stress they were wrong- An Honourable Member: They were wrong. Mr. Ashton: They were wrong at that time, and the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) is certainly aware of this.

The Supreme Court, I believe, in 19 92, in a ruling involved Saskatchewan-involving Saskatchewan, by the way, where there is a much higher variation of population for the northern seats-ruled that that was not only appropriate under the Charter but was quite legitimate because when one deals with the parliamentary system one is reflecting a number of key factors. That is, in our system, the British parliamentary system, based as it is on the first-past-the-post constituency system. We are not a proportional representation system; we are not a party list system.

Primarily we are based in Manitoba on a system that recognizes that people in the constituency elect an MLA to represent their constituency. That is fundamental, and I will fight for that. Coming from northern Manitoba, believe you me, that is important. I think it is absolutely critical that people be able to elect an MLA that is in a position of representing them in this Legislature. I want to stress that that is critical to the functioning of our system. It is particularly important, I would suggest, in rural and northern Manitoba.

I say rural Manitoba as well, because I think that, if one reflects on the situation, in Winnipeg there are certainly communities of interest-and I certainly respect

666 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 19 99 those communities of interest-but there are how many MLAs in the city? An Honourable Member: Thirty-one. Mr. Ashton: Thirty-one, and I appreciate my colleague from the city pointing that out-31 members. I often say this in my own constituency [interjection] Well, the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) says: well, that is the population. Obviously, Winnipeg is the largest area by population in the city, so it has the largest number of seats. If the member for Inkster bears with me, he will see my point here.

My point is if you live in a constituency in Winnipeg and your MLA does not represent you, you have got 30 other MLAs that are going to represent you, and I respect that. But, if you are in rural Manitoba, apart from the city of Brandon, where you have two MLAs-I must admit Brandon has played that very well over the years, sort of one in opposition, one in government.

There was a brief time when both were in government, but that is another story and hope springs eternal. [interjection] Henry was not around for very long, but Henry did bring a different style here with his convertible Mercedes, oh, yes, and a very flamboyant life style, very fine man. I have a lot of respect for him, but I was saying that, outside of Brandon, every other rural and northern area, you have one representative-Thompson, The Pas, Flin Flon, or whether it be in Gladstone, whether it be Springfield, Lakeside, Gimli. So, if you are living in Gimli, either your MLA does the job for you or that is it.

Nobody else is going to necessarily represent the community in the same way. I compare that to Winnipeg where you have 31 MLAs. [interjection] It is the same thing in Lakeside. The point is, you see the importance of representation right there. Just the simple fact that we represent entire communities. I represent and I may be the MLA for Thompson, but that is a bit of a misnomer.

In many ways I should be the representative for Thompson, and if you want to get like the House of Commons, I have often suggested that you might call that Thompson/Bayline because I represent the bayline communities of Thicket Portage, Wabowden, Pikwitonei and liford, but, of course, I would not want to leave out Nelson House and Split Lake and York Landing. I do not know if you could extend it that distance, but it really is the MLA for Thompson's area, for the Thompson region, and I think that is something that has to be reflected.

When we are electing MLAs, your first responsibility, I believe, is still to represent your constituents in this Legislature. I have often said to my constituents that I have been fortunate, certainly, to play a number of roles in this House, most recently as opposition House leader. But as far as I am concerned, the first commitment I made when I was first elected was to my constituents. It was to put Thompson first, and it is still my top priority. That, I stress again, has a base in the electoral system itself in the sense that we do not elect people from a party list.

There are many countries where you pick from a party list. There are systems of proportional representation where essentially that happens. In this House, the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) is elected by the people of Inkster. He represents Inkster, period. He has wider responsibili ties, obviously, elected as a Liberal.

By the way, I often say too in my own constituency that I not only represent the people who voted for me, I make a point of representing everybody in my constituency, Conservative, Liberal, New Democrat, and the many people who do not vote, and I would assume- * (1 520) An Honourable Member: That is so obvious. I do not think anybody needs to say that. Is it not automatic? Mr. Ashton: Well, the min ister says: That is obvious. Do you not automatically do that? · You know, I want to tell about a circumstance I ran into to the minister, because this sort of sums it up, the Mini ster responsible for MPIC (Mrs.

Mcintosh). I was at [interjection] Well, she obviously does not talk to some of the people I have talked to. I was at the meeting of the Port of Churchill Development Board, which had representation from Saskatchewan and Manitoba. One of the - -

April 27, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 667 MLAs from Alberta, and it is not hard to pick which party the person was from, because in those days I think there were two opposition members. No, he was a Conservative. He said to me: you know what really bugs me, he says, is when right after the election the first person in my office, you can guarantee it is somebody who did not vote for me. I just sort of say to myself he told me, he said: I feel like kicking the guy out of my office. It is like, you know, you do not vote for me and then a couple of weeks later you show up in my office and you want help.

Now, I kind of looked at that and I sort of said to him, I said, well, you know, I consider it the ultimate compliment when someone comes to me that did not vote for me but respects the fact I represent the constituency as MLA for Thompson, and I respect the fact that whether they voted for me or did not vote or whoever they voted for, if they are there with a problem, I am there to help them. I am the MLA for Thompson, not just the MLA for people who happened to vote NDP in Thompson.

I say that to the minister because it may sound obvious to her, but I think by her actions we can demonstrate quite clearly that if we take it seriously that we represent everyone, it makes a real difference. I know other members in the House follow the same thing. I am sure the members for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) or Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) or the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), the member for Interlake (Mr. C. Evans), the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) do the same thing. An Honourable Member: Which member for Wellington? Mr. Ashton: They do the same thing. I am talking about existing boundaries.

I remind the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) that we do not have the new boundaries yet. An Honourable Member: And we will though. Mr. Ashton: And we will fairly soon, and I am sure that will be a very interesting household discussion. An Honourable Member: The cheque is in the mail. Mr. Ashton: We will not get into that. The fact is we are a constituency-based system, and I want to stress in Canada why, and I appreciate the argument sometimes that will come about proportional representation in other systems of government.

But you know, I want to suggest that our system of government is particularly good for rural and northern areas, because I do not know how Thompson would fit in any other system. I do not know how the North would. We are four MLAs, four MLAs out of 57. You tum it up the other way, 53 MLAs from the rest of the province. We are four. Now, even with rural Manitoba, rural Manitoba, now there are 31 city MLAs, so you have a situation, you have 26 from rural and northern Manitoba, so you have 22 from rural Manitoba. You are in a position where you do not have that representation in other systems.

But what we assure by a constituency-based system is that people's voices will be heard, not just the party's voices, but the voices of the people living in constituencies all across this province. I believe, by the way, in a strong party system. I believe the Canadian system has achieved a lot more than the American system because of that. We have parties that mean something, that stand for something. I am proud, certainly, to be part of the New Democratic Party, which has a clear stand on issues.

I just point to the fact one of the tremendous benefits we have in Canada I believe comes from the party system itself-medicare. Medicare has not happened in the United States with their system, even though polls consistently show that people want medicare in the same way we have it in Canada, universal health care insurance, but it happened here because you had the CCF in Saskatchewan, the NDP in 19 62 in Saskatchewan. You had movements nationally, first in the Diefenbaker government and then the Pearson government. You know the party

668 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 19 99 system is the strength of what we are dealing with. Bottom line though is we are a constituency-based system. That is why we need to deal with some of the issues that were raised in this debate. I want to put them on the record again, just briefly in summing up, because I know our leader has a couple of comments-or in fact I believe I may be the final speaker from our side, because I know he made a number of comments. I want to stress again that for effective representation to work, it requires a number of things.

One is we need to ensure that the people of this province have reasonable access to their MLAs and vice versa. I note for those who contributed in the debate, and I will not mention them by name-- An Honourable Member: That is okay. Mr. Ashton: Okay, I will mention the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). But you know I have four communities that do not have roads. Many of the people in those communities do not have phones. Once the rates go up in the next couple of years, those few who have phones will no longer have phones.

You cannot even begin to think-those who have not travelled extensively in remote northern communities-the difficulty. It is very easy to say, well, we just set up better constituency allowances, but you know there is only one MLA for Rupertsland, and there are a heck of a lot of communities. Between being an MLA in this Legislature and representing those communities, it is very difficult if not impossible physically to do it, but he does. He tries hard; he works hard. What I am saying is the variation we have that is put in place is to reflect that.

By the way, I want to be fair to the many rural members on that side. A lot of members in this House do not realize the amount of travelling back and forth and tra velling within constituencies that is involved. I look at some of the people in the House who have been through that. The members from Brandon just access their constituency travelling a couple of hours back and forth, but some of the other constituencies that people do not think about, the Emerson constituency for example, Dauphin, Swan River, Interlake. How many communities does the member for Interlake (Mr.

Clif Evans) represent? [interjection] Eight, ten, eleven. You know what happens? When we draw the boundaries, we do not do them in logical ways. I have often said we should have a Highway 6 constituency, because I actually travel through Highway 6-one end of the MLA for Interlake's riding-probably as much as he does. It is crazy. You know I spend more time in Ashern when I am driving back and forth to Thompson than I do in communities in my own constituency. But we tend to do it in other ways. The point is the member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans), the member for Emerson (Mr.

Penner), not only have come to the point where they have to fork out money from their own bank account to serve their constituents, but you compare what they are going through. The member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), and I know there are many members in this House who spend a lot of time travelling back and forth. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair I say to members, if you have any question about the difficulty of representing rural and northern constituencies to urban members, you know, think of the amount of downtime you have as an urban MLA. The member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) says it takes him 25 minutes to drive back to his constituency. I do not know what route he takes or what kind of car he drives, but !-[interjection] Well, I do not know. I know where the member's constituency does start, and I am wondering about that 25 minutes. I know the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) who is a former and soon-to-be policeman- An Honourable Member: I can get there in 10 minutes. Mr. Ashton: -<:an get there in 10 minutes, but I do not want to touch that. Maybe he gets a police escort when he goes back to his constituency. But think about the amount of downtime you have.

When I travel back and forth to Thompson, I drive back and forth, nine hours on the road. You know even the cellphone corridor lasts for about an hour, hour and a half. - -

April 27, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 669 For nine hours you are in your car. You have nothing you can do as an MLA other than sit, watch the road go by, think. It is actually quite an enjoyable experience at times, and a way to get away from it all. Bel ieve you me, by the time you are up at Devils Lake, you are away from it all. But you are still not accessing constituents. I find it is very difficult, even returning phone calls, when I have to stop at every pay phone, Devils Lake, Ponton, Grand Rapids, just to catch up on various messages.

What I want to stress is, that is why you have this variation. That is why you have this variation in virtually every jurisdiction in Canada you have a representation of that margin, the 10 percent or the 25 percent. It is something that has been supported now in the Supreme Court. It is legal, legitimate, but it is unfortunate that this Boundaries Commission chose to only partially implement that. I think it is important to put on the record the experience of this round of boundary discussions because I want to suggest that next time around we can avoid this problem.

Number one, I want to stress we want to see a change in the composition of the Boundaries Commission. It is not acceptable, I think, given this experience, to have representatives on that commission who are fine people but are from the city of Winnipeg only. I would suggest we need to look at rural representation, perhaps the president of Brandon University. There are various different ways we can look at it. We need northern representation. I want to stress that because that can be done before the next boundaries. I would hope to see all-party support in this House for accomplishing that.

I would suggest we could look at keeping the existing composition and adding two more people. That has been discussed. * (1 530) I do not know whether the Minister responsible for MPIC's (Mrs. Mcintosh) concern is about that, but I would say most rural people, most northern people, would feel a heck of a Jot more comfortable about the fairness if you had a rural and a northern representative. I look to the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae}- An Honourable Member: You should have a rural MLA like Jim Downey. Mr. Ashton: Well, yes, Jim Downey on the Boundaries Commission. The member for Arthur-Virden (Mr.

Downey) has got a career ahead of him in terms of ethics. We look forward to his reincarnation. An Honourable Member: Drawing up ethics rules. Mr. Ashton: Ethics rules. I have also offered to introduce the member for Arthur-Virden to Jules Benson just in case he does not know what he looks like, but that is another story. Anyway, I want to talk in all seriousness about this because could we not agree, consensus basis-and I say to the Minister responsible for MPIC (Mrs. Mcintosh) that it is fair to have rural and northern representation on the boundaries.

In the end, bottom line is, I think the minister actually agrees with me. I am surprised here she is not disagreeing with that proposal. Number two, I think what we have to do in terms of the margins that are in place, we have to look at amendments to the act that wiiJ require not make it optional but make it a requirement of the Boundaries Commission to apply those margins in rural and in northern Manitoba. I want to stress that in the first round the Boundaries Commission actually had said that they had no intention of even following that, not even close. An Honourable Member: Good for them. Mr.

Ashton : The member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) says good for them. He speaks safely tucked inside the Perimeter against rural and northern Manitoba being able to have the full access to representation that it requires. It is interesting, the Mini ster responsible for MPIC (Mrs. Mcintosh), because what she is missing here is this time around the Boundaries Commission initially said no to that, and the

670 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 19 99 revised map reflected a partial element of that, but the bottom line here is this is an independent commiSSion. What we want to do next time around is make sure that it is more reflective of the province. I would hope, by the way, that would lead to another thing which would be not just reflecting the province but travelling. I think it is really unfortunate that this Boundaries Commission did not travel to aboriginal communities. We want to see that changed.

I think there have to be some serious questions asked about the accuracy of census figures in a lot of areas of the provinces. That has to be changed. I think fundamentally we have to ensure that the next Boundaries Commission does not have to wait for public hearings before it actually decides that it is going to apply even partially the elements of the act that are in place for the 25 percent in the North and the I 0 percent in rural Manitoba. I would suggest that on an all-party basis we make sure next time that we have

an act that says not "they shall." You do not have to be a lawyer to understand that "shall" does not mean a heck of a lot, but "m ay" in this case-pardon me, "may" does not mean a heck of a lot and "s hall" does. If we have some element in there, and there may be some wording that can allow for the fact it is very hard to make boundaries the exact element, but the intent was clear. The intent was to go to the 25 percent as close as is practicable, and that was not followed, and it is only partially followed in these boundaries. That is why a number of us have spoken from northern Manitoba.

That is why a number of other MLAs have spoken. I commend our Leader, by the way. I am always careful when I talk about Perimeteritis because we have a lot of friends in rural and northern Manitoba who live inside the city of Winnipeg. We have a lot of friends in this Chamber in all parties who respect and reflect our views. [interjection] Well, I will not get into the member for Inkster's (Mr. Lamoureux) comments because I hope that he will become a friend too of the North by travelling to northern Manitoba.

I know he has travelled before, but actually asking people in northern Manitoba what they think about the 25 percent and the five northern seats because I can tell you-[interjection] I invite the Minister responsible for MPIC (Mrs. Mcintosh) to come up as well. We look forward to that. I certainly welcome her to come up and ask that question because I can tell you, my area, it is pretty well unanimous. At the hearings, we had a cross

section of the community. In fact, the returning officer is a very well respected person in our constituency, certainly not a New Democrat. She is someone who said, as a returning officer, five northern seats make sense. So, I conclude then by saying we have to change the way we deal with boundaries in the future. Obviously we would have liked to have seen some better elements in this report, but we respect the fact it is an independent process. That is why certainly I will be supporting the boundaries. But, in supporting it, I want to stress that I am supporting the element of its independence.

I am not totally happy with the end results, but respecting that, I am working on next time, and I hope all members, because I think we have a consensus in this House [interjection] Well, okay, apart from the member for Inkster, perhaps, but we have a relative consensus, and I still have hope for the member for Inkster. I would suggest next time around, let us do it properly. Let us make sure the North has better representation, the representation it is entitled to. Let us make sure we are committed to fairness for rural Manitoba.

Yes, we can have fair representation for all Manitobans. [interjection] I am not going to get into that. We will not get into who might be what representative. We have not passed the new boundaries yet, but I actually think we can do that now. Then we can start that debate. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think it is somewhat appropriate, last time in second reading I spoke and the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) followed . and addressed some of my points.

Now, being third reading, I guess I might get the final say, at least between the two of us, on the record, between the member for Thompson. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I do want to be very, very clear on it. I personally, and would advocate from within our party, would oppose any sort of a change from a "ma y" to a "shall" on the 25 percent variance. So it is something which the member for Thompson has not - -

April 27, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 67 1 enlightened me to the degree to have changed my opinion. One of the things, and I checked with the dean of the Chamber about seniority inside the Chamber. If we take a look at the six most senior individuals inside this Chamber, it is the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), the member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger), the member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey), the member for Tuxedo (Mr. Fil mon) and the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). These are almost all rural MLAs.

Now the turnover within the city of Winnipeg, whether by option or by no choice, would imply that rural MLAs do have some stabil ity inside this Chamber. But, having said that, I want to emphasize, if you want good quality representation, what you have to do is ensure that the resources are there. That is why, if we go back to '88, we will see that the Liberal Party as the official opposition enhanced greatly the opportunities for all MLAs, in particular rural MLAs, in ensuring that good quality representation would be there.

We saw huge increases in travel allowances to other sorts of benefits for rural members so that they would be able to provide better quality representation to those constituents. You cannot ensure that by dividing or by saying, well, Rupertsland is now going to be divided into 14 provincial ridings so that the MLA will not have to go throughout half the province in order to achieve the same sort of representation that an MLA in a city of Winnipeg riding might have. Mr. Deputy Speaker, it goes without saying that there are certain advantages that an urban MLA will have.

There are also certain advantages that a rural MLA will have. I would think, in fairness, that Elections Manitoba should be looking for not only all-party support for this but also to do what I believe Manitobans would believe, and that is that the importance of equality of vote in a democratic society has to be taken into consideration. I believe Elections Manitoba has done that in the past. I would suggest they have a role in the future in terms of doing it. * (1 540) The other point that the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) brought up was the enlarging of the size of the commission.

I do not see any reason why that cannot be done. I think that the Conservatives have indicated support in the past for that. I and I believe the party would not have any problem in ensuring that there is fair representation on the commission to take into consideration many other things that might be out there. In closing, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we do want to see this bill pass. This is something which we have been waiting for.

The Leader of the official opposition was correct in the sense that no rule� have had to have been waived in order to see this bill pass, and I applaud all MLAs in recognizing the importance of this legislation passing prior to the budget. I think that it reinforces the support that we as elected of ficials have for the independence or the need for independence in Elections Manitoba and look forward to its passage and its receiving of Royal Assent. Thank you. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?

The question before the House is third reading, Bill 2, The Electoral Divisions Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les circonscriptions electorales. Is it the will of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. Madam Speaker in the Chair Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, would there be leave of the House to proceed with third reading of Bi ll 17 ? [interjection] Madam Speaker, we will be bringing in the Lieutenant Governor. ROYAL ASSENT Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms (Mr. Garry Clark): His Honour the Lieutenant Governor.

672 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 19 99 His Honour Peter Liba, Lieutenant Governor of the Province of Manitoba, having entered the House and being seated on the throne, Madam Speaker addressed His Honour the Lieutenant Governor in the following words: Madam Speaker: May it please Your Honour: The Legislative Assembly at its present session passed one bill, which, in the name of the Assembly, I present to Your Honour and to which bill I respectfully request Your Honour's consent. Bill 2-The Electoral Divisions Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les circonscriptions electorates. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): In Her Majesty's Name, his Honour the Lieutenant Governor doth assent to this bill. His Honour was then pleased to retire. Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would ask with leave of the House, if there is leave, first of all, to have third reading of Bill I 7. Madam Speaker: Is there leave of the House to proceed with third reading of Bill 17 ? [agreed] * (155 0) THIRD READINGS Biii 17-The Elections Amendment and Elections Finances Amendment Act Hon.

Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would therefore move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Bill 17 , The Elections Amendment and Elections Fin ances Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi electorale et Ia

Loi sur le financement des campagnes electorales, be now read a third time and passed. Motion presented Mr. ClifEvans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, I would certainly like to put a few words on the record with respect to Bill 17 and why Bill 17 actually came about. It had to come about. We all know of the situation that had occurred in '95 . As I read here from one of the newspapers: Monnin inquiry confirms vote rigging plot and cover-up. We all know and we have all heard and people have made comments as to what has occurred. The Monnin inquiry lasted for a great deal of time.

I was part of that inquiry and it shows from what I have read through the inquiry and heard and seen in the papers and on TV that certainly this bill is much needed to be able to preserve the quality of the people who are not only running for electoral of fice but for those that are voting for those same people.

I could start my comments at pretty well any time and I may jump back and forth, but I want to say that it was unfortunate that this situation did occur, unfortunate for all elected and to-be elected representatives, whether it be in the Legislature or as members of Parliament or in our local jurisdictions as councillors or reeves. Madam Speaker, it is everybody's right to vote, and it is everybody's right to vote for whom they please. It is everybody's right to hear the truth from the candidates and to hear what the party is going to promise and why they are running for that particular party.

The incident in '95, I was rather surprised when I read the Monnin inquiry-! will comment from it and quote from it periodically-at the scheme itself. The scheme itself, according to Monnin, was put together or allegedly put together some week or so before the election writ was dropped. Madam Speaker, Mr. Monnin refers many times to people being liars during this inquiry, not only lying to his investigators but lying to the inquiry itself and to him. One of the quotes that surprised me was from page 18. It says: "S okolyk is an admitted liar. His testimony must therefore be considered with caution.

I do however accept it in part." It is this part, Madam Speaker, that not only surprised me but rather made me feel uneasy to my stomach. The meeting, a plot had its origin in Winnipeg in an office, the party headquarters. In addition to Sokolyk, Aitken, Barrett and - -

April 27, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 673 Trachuk were present, some week or 10 days before the writs were dropped. That is what made me feel, Madam Speaker, very, very sad, was that the gentleman whom I had gotten to know in 19 90 when we ran against each other, whom I thought was an honourable man-and I still do associate and discuss different things with him when I do see him-I was surprised to find out that Mr. Trachuk was indeed involved somehow or knew about the scheme. It shows later on that he also, reluctantly not admitting it, was at a meeting with Mr. Aitken and Mr.

Sinclair from Little Saskatchewan Fi rst Nations in Fai rford, and that, Mr. Monnin says: "This conversation makes it clear that Trachuk was aware of what Aitken was up to, and I believe he was aware of the general scheme from the time of the first meeting when Aitken and Sokolyk were discussing the possible effects that aboriginal independent candidates might have on the vote." Madam Speaker, we have heard and read of many of the people involved in the scheme, how it came about, the issues that were brought forward, when they were brought forward.

I remember a comment made to me in June that if I knew about the scheme in January, why did it take me five and a half months to raise it. I remember it. I remember that quote. I do not remember whom it was said by, but I do remember it. It took me five and a half months, yes, to raise it, but it took them three and a half years to bring it forward too-three and a half years of cover-up, covering up a scheme that has brought a lot of hardship and sorrow to a lot of people.

Not only those that were involved directly, not the Taras Sokolyks only, not the Jules Bensons only, not the Gordon McFarlanes, the Darryl Sutherlands, the Allan Aitkens, the Cubby Barretts and all the other witnesses that were brought forward. Over 10 0 people were interviewed; 37 appeared before the inquiry. Some of the quotes and the comments that Mr. Monnin brings forward show that perhaps in some aspect of the political system, in some small aspect, there is a lack of respect for the people of this province and for the system that we govern ourselves under.

He goes on to say: "A vote-rigging plot constitutes an unconscionable debasement of the citizen's right to vote. To reduce the voting rights of individuals is a violation of our democratic system." However, he writes, despite the strong words, vote rigging is not illegal. So the scheme to vote-rig and to take votes from one to the other so that another can come in, Mr. Monnin says, is not illegal.

With the time element, I believe, that is involved, nothing can be done legally to certain people. * (1 600) Madam Speaker, in reading through the inquiry and the newspaper s-and I was, fortunately or unfortunately, one of the first to appear before the inquiry and had an opportunity then to watch and listen and be able to make my presentation as best I could without having an input or a knowledge of anything else that was going on-in many ways, I was amazed.

People in my riding were amazed that something like this could go on, not necessarily that they were not saying that this happens all the time, something to this effect happens all the time, not saying that anybody particularly was so at fault for doing this that they should go to jail, yet Mr. Monnin feels that Mr. Sutherland and Mr. McFa rlane and Mr. Barrett have perhaps been involved to the point that they should be prosecuted, and perhaps once the inquiry by the independent body finds out or decides whether there will be any charges laid. I have read through the recommendations, Madam Speaker.

The recommendations that are from his report all relate to attempting to make sure that this does not happen again, whether it be by the Tories or by the Liberals or by the NDP or just in your local community town election. He quotes, in one of his recommendations in the background, that the statute of limitations on prosecutions be extended to within one to two years in date upon which the electoral officer has reasonable and probable grounds to believe an offence has been committed. Madam Speaker, that relates to the finding during the Monnin inquiry that Sokolyk and

674 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 19 99 Aitken and Barrett broke

Section 14 5( 1) by inducing Darryl Sutherland to run. It also relates to findings that Mr. Sutherland and Mr. Wilson and McFarlane breached The Elections Fina nces Act, and they could be prosecuted. Madam Speaker, on one hand, you look, you say, well, those that covered up the scheme and knew about the scheme and tried to cover up the money and the cheques and that, there has to be something in fault there for prosecution, but I wonder, and I wonder about Mr. Sutherland. I did not know Mr. Sutherland. I met Mr. Sutherland in June here of '98 in the hallway of the Legislative Assembly the first time.

Even running against him, I never had the opportunity to debate with him, meet him or talk to him. There are a lot of people, Madam Speaker, who are named, who have been interviewed that I had no idea up until seeing them on TV, in the newspaper or listening to their report on the inquiry who they were. I must have passed some of these people numerous times in eight years and did not know who they were, yet they were involved-it says in the inquiry-they were involved in this scheme and cover-up. Jules Benson, I knew who he was.

Why would perhaps the second-most powerful man in government want to be a part of such a scheme? Why would people like Mr. Aitken and others deny the fact that a scheme was in place? Madam Speaker, during the summer of '98 and prior to the questioning of the investigators, as I was making my way around my communities, people were saying to me that I knew about it. We heard about it. We heard there was something going on, yet nothing and nobody came out until the night that Mr. Sutherland called Mr. Uruski to tell him about it. It was there. People, Mr. Sinclair phoned me directly to tell me.

This happened in April of '95, and he knew, others knew, and no one said anything. Elections Manitoba was told, were written to, were requested to get to the bottom of this. That was not done. Because if it was done, Bill 17 would not be before us, 37 people would not have gone to the inquiry, a hundred and some odd people would not have been interviewed and many lives would not be damaged forever. That is what bothers me as a person, not as a politician, as a person. Because even though I did not know Mr. Sokolyk very well, his implication in this scheme has brought a hardship on him and his family, Mr.

Benson's, Mr. McFa rlane's and the others. We also hear, through Mr. Monnin, well, one of the other parts of Mr. Monnin's recommendations that I would like to quote from is that all parties prepare a code of ethics. I ask you, Madam Speaker, for those involved in the initial scheme and for those that were involved in the cover-up, what were they thinking of as ethics? That all parties prepare a code of ethics relates to the culture of the Tory party around the election scheme and the comments that are made.

Madam Speaker, one comment that I found, because right to the end the Conservative lawyer kept going after everybody but the Conservatives, but the ones that were involved, but the ones that did the wrong doing, but then he is quoted: this inquiry is not about judging or commenting on matters of morality. This is a la

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-15
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 15.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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