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November 1, 1994

35th Parliament, 3rd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

LABOUR LEGISLATION

JUSTICE SYSTEM

CASTLE KILBRIDE

EDUCATION PROGRAM EVALUATION

G&B HOUSE

NATIVE PEOPLE

PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE PARTY

DRINKING AND DRIVING

JOBS ONTARIO TRAINING

ONTARIO ECONOMY

RUSSELL DANIEL ROWE

ACCESS TO PUBLIC GALLERY

CANCER TREATMENT

FINANCIAL PROCEDURES

MINISTRY OF HEALTH SPENDING

ARNOLD MINORS

GROSS REVENUE INSURANCE PLAN

GOVERNMENT SPENDING

FRUIT GROWERS

LIQUOR LICENSING

JOB SECURITY

COMMUNITY ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

MEMBER'S PRIVILEGE

CORRECTION

FIREARMS SAFETY

CLOSURE OF JAIL

WHITBY GENERAL HOSPITAL

MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

HEALTH INSURANCE

WHITBY GENERAL HOSPITAL

GASOLINE PRICES

PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE PARTY PLAN

EDUCATION FINANCING

LONG-TERM CARE REFORM

FIREARMS SAFETY

ANIMALS FOR RESEARCH

VIOLENCE

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

DURHAM REGIONAL POLICE ASSOCIATION INC. ACT, 1994

MONPRE IRON MINES LIMITED ACT, 1994

BEREAN BAPTIST CHURCH OF COLLINGWOOD ACT, 1994

STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT (GOVERNMENT MANAGEMENT AND SERVICES), 1994 / LOI DE 1994 MODIFIANT DES LOIS EN CE QUI A TRAIT AUX PRATIQUES DE GESTION ET AUX SERVICES DU GOUVERNEMENT

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

LABOUR LEGISLATION

Mr David Ramsay (Timiskaming): I'm pleased to be back in the Legislature to stand in my place and make a point to the Minister of Labour in regard to Bill 40.

This summer we saw in Kirkland Lake, a town in my riding, the Canadian Tire store organized. I'm certainly all in favour of that if that's what the workers would want, but unfortunately 19 of the 30 workers of the store went to a hearing in Toronto at the Ontario Labour Relations Board wanting to have their decision to certify the union rescinded.

I bring this up because it just shows a very basic flaw in Bill 40: Where employees feel that their job security had been threatened or that they had been intimidated to sign cards, they don't have any recourse.

Our solution here in the Liberal caucus would be that anybody contemplating organizing a workplace and organizing a drive, as certainly is their right, should allow the workers to have a secret ballot vote. This was not allowed in this case by the board. I think it's a fundamental flaw in this bill and I ask the newly appointed Minister of Labour to reconsider that part of Bill 40.

JUSTICE SYSTEM

Mr Charles Harnick (Willowdale): People in the legal profession had hoped that when this government came to power it would repair some of the mistakes made by the previous Liberal government. Unfortunately, this government has not been up to the task.

This government and the Liberal government before it came up with a plan to get rid of the masters of the Ontario Court of Justice. Masters of the Ontario Court of Justice look after pre-trial motions and civil matters. In Metro Toronto, they do construction lien trials and family law matters. Virtually every day of the week they deal with approximately 100 to 150 matters. The problem is, who is going to look after these motions once the masters have been eliminated? Laypersons cannot perform this function and judges plainly do not have the time.

In Toronto, there are currently six full-time and seven supernumerary masters. This December, the seven supernumerary masters will have reached their maximum allowable annual incomes. The six full-time masters will be responsible for virtually hundreds of motions per day from January to April. The justice system will be so understaffed that massive delays will result.

To quote a study done by the Canadian Bar Association on the situation, "The situation has become desperate." The study continues on to state that the administration of justice in Ontario has been substantially impaired by neglect and negative measures by a succession of attorneys general.

I urge the government to correct its mistakes and the mistakes of its predecessors. It is time that this government listened to those individuals who work in the justice system and heeded their pleas for the reinstatement of masters to Ontario's justice system.

CASTLE KILBRIDE

Mr Mike Cooper (Kitchener-Wilmot): I rise today to inform the members of this Legislature about the completion of a Jobs Ontario Community Action project which took place in my riding. It was the official opening of Castle Kilbride and the administration complex in Wilmot township.

The opening gala was held Saturday, September 24, while the official opening was held on Sunday, September 25. This project is one, as you may be aware, that the whole community embraced with enthusiasm, creativeness and ambitiousness. For the community, the weekend's events were a culmination of much hard work, and the supporters were there in full force.

Castle Kilbride stands as a monument to our heritage and traditions and the commitment that the people of Wilmot township have made to preserve their heritage. Special commendation should go to His Worship Mayor Lynn Myers and all of the council.

Castle Kilbride was built in 1877 and was a showplace for the area. The stately home is Italianate in design and incorporates many unique features, and some original features are still in its rooms.

To appreciate fully the artistry in the castle, you will want to see for yourself the brilliance of the restored works. Plan now to visit Castle Kilbride. You'll be very pleased with what you'll see.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to present to the legislative library a copy of a book published by Paul Knowles called Castle Kilbride: The Jewel of Wilmot Township, understanding full well that many members won't be able to attend.

EDUCATION PROGRAM EVALUATION

Mr Charles Beer (York-Mackenzie): I've yet another tale of mixed messages coming from this government. This time it's the Minister of Education and Training and the Premier.

Last week the minister was clearly pleased when he was releasing the results of the grade 9 testing. He was quoted as saying: "As a report card at the end of this school year, these results are encouraging. They show that our school system is providing students with the essential literacy skills at the start of their secondary education." But within 24 hours the Premier blasted away at the results, saying, "It's just not good enough to say, 'Well, everybody got a C, and that's great.'"

The minister finds the test results encouraging and acceptable; the Premier finds them discouraging and unacceptable.

Make no mistake about it, the minister and the Premier have left teachers holding the bag on this one as they try to explain the results to parents. Parents, on the other hand, are left wondering how well their children really are doing in school.

The last time I looked at the membership of cabinet, Dave Cooke was the Minister of Education and Training, but Bob Rae, the member for York South, was the Premier, the head of this government. Surely as Premier he has had and continues to have the authority to change the system and address the very problems which he identified.

It's clear to teachers, school boards and parents that after four long years this government still can't get it straight.

G&B HOUSE

Mr Jim Wilson (Simcoe West): On behalf of my colleagues the member for Grey-Owen Sound, Mr Murdoch, the member for Dufferin-Peel, Mr Tilson, and the member for Wellington, Mr Arnott, I rise on behalf of G&B House, which is a recovery home for men and is located in Owen Sound.

Since 1975, G&B House has been providing long-term residential care for men with substance abuse and alcohol problems in Grey, Bruce, Dufferin, Wellington and Simcoe counties. G&B House has also been treating men who have been referred to them from as far away as Hamilton, London and Toronto.

The facility now finds itself in trouble because the treatment dollars have not followed the patients who have been referred to G&B House from southern Ontario. It is critical that the Ministry of Health reallocate resources to G&B House for the patients who are referred to the facility from outside its normal catchment area.

If G&B House is forced to close its doors, the costs to patients, the health care system and to society as a whole will be tremendous. When men with alcohol and substance abuse problems who are reaching out for help cannot turn to G&B House, they will find themselves back in the correctional facilities or on welfare or in a hospital bed or even dead. At the end of the day, the costs to taxpayers, to family members and to friends of men who are trying to get help for a serious affliction will be much greater if the government turns its back on G&B House.

I'm urging this government to reallocate resources and to save G&B House, which is a valuable resource for the people of our area and the people of the province.

NATIVE PEOPLE

Ms Jenny Carter (Peterborough): I want to respond to statements made recently by the leader of the third party as reported in the Peterborough Examiner. My experience of the first nations community in my own riding is the opposite of the member for Nipissing's.

The community at Curve Lake makes an enormously valuable contribution to the local community and economy, especially in tourism and culture. The Curve Lake gallery boasts one of the finest collections of first nations art in the country. Curve Lake recently opened a beautiful mall, sure to attract both locals and tourists. First nations people across the province, both on and off reserve, enrich all our lives through their hard work, dedication and openness to sharing their cultural heritage with us all.

I want members of the House to know that the member for Nipissing has deeply insulted the first nations community in my riding and elsewhere and has offended many others with his repugnant remarks. I spoke with Chief Knott of Curve Lake yesterday. He said to me, "It is outright disgraceful that a leader of a political party would make statements like this."

The leader of the third party has referred to the members of a specific community, using provocative and offensive language. He has generalized and suggested that first nations people "stay at home and do nothing." The member for Nipissing has abused his position as a public figure by making irresponsible and intolerant remarks. He has belittled and violated the integrity of first nations communities in this province. The leader of the third party owes Ontario's first nations peoples an apology.

PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE PARTY

Mr Steven W. Mahoney (Mississauga West): Today marks the third anniversary of a day the Conservative Party would like everyone to forget. Three years ago today, the Conservative leader reached into his hat and unveiled his first attempt at an economic policy.

Applause.

Mr Mahoney: They may applaud. This document contained a long list of promises: promises to reduce fuel taxes, promises to cut the sales tax, and to dramatically increase spending on day care, agriculture and the environment. The promises turned out to be less than revolutionary, I say to my good friends. The platform was a bust; the Tories didn't even budge in the polls.

But that's okay. Mike Harris is the worst kind of politician. He simply said, "If you don't like these principles here, I have others." So the Conservative leader reached once again into his hat and he pulled out a new book, an American book, which contained a whole new series of promises. It didn't matter to him that his American writers forgot to include many of the promises he had made the first time. After all, they're just promises.

Now the Conservative leader is promising to drastically cut funding to vital services, from day care to agricultural funding, and he's promising to slash municipal transfers which pay for essential local services, from policing to our seniors. It's a hat trick that just won't fly. The people of Ontario deserve better.

DRINKING AND DRIVING

Mr David Turnbull (York Mills): I think the member should withdraw that last statement, since it was inaccurate.

Drunk driving caused the death of 568 people in 1992. Some 44% of all motor vehicle fatalities were caused by alcohol; 46.1% of all drivers killed were impaired by alcohol or had been drinking. Despite these grim statistics, the Attorney General has reduced money for drinking-driving programs. It would appear as if this government does not view drinking and driving crimes seriously.

The staff in the drinking-driving countermeasures office was reduced from nine to three during the Liberal term in office. Under this government, programs have been axed. The student summer Arrive Alive program that hired students to undertake important public awareness programs is gone. The grants for student groups that assist local chapters of OSAID have been cut within the last two years.

A list of approximately eight very stiff anti-driving-and-drinking initiatives has been prepared and is sitting on the desk of the Attorney General for approval. These include mandatory treatment for repeat offenders, car impoundment, mandatory pay programs to have licences reinstated. Many community groups like MADD have worked with the government to develop these and want the Attorney General to act now. Ontario needs to know that their Attorney General takes drinking and driving offences seriously and is prepared to take action.

JOBS ONTARIO TRAINING

Ms Margaret H. Harrington (Niagara Falls): Jobs are very important in my city of Niagara Falls. People want to work and be trained for jobs where they can use their skills.

I went to city council a week ago to tell them about Jobs Ontario Training. With me was Bea Clarke from Niagara College, the broker, and 108 local employers have hired through this program, large businesses such as Tony Zappitelli from the Sheraton Fallsview, small businesses such as Jeff Rose at Cascade Printing, all kinds of businesses.

Jobs Ontario Training is affecting all of our community. These are not make-work jobs; these are permanent, full-time jobs with an incredible 89% retention rate. This means a paycheque, not a welfare cheque, for many families in my city of Niagara Falls and 900 jobs across the Niagara region.

I went to Niagara Falls Public Library on Thursday, and as I walked in there were many people coming in with their résumés to register for Jobs Ontario Training. Maria Cadham, our local coordinator and a very, very helpful person, will be holding these registrations every Thursday at the library, from 3:30 to 4:30 from now until December 8.

The local chamber of commerce has published profiles of how this program has helped its small businesses, and now even the businesses are calling my office to see how they can get involved. Let's keep Jobs Ontario Training working for Niagara Falls.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

ONTARIO ECONOMY

Hon Floyd Laughren (Minister of Finance): Today, I present the Ontario finances for the second quarter of the current fiscal year. I am very pleased to report that our revised forecast shows the deficit for this year will fall by $206 million.

This is the latest drop in a figure which, no matter how we measure it, has been falling consistently and sharply over the past two years. The decline in the 1994-95 deficit reflects the gathering strength of the Ontario economy, which is growing at a rate that outstrips our 1994 budget forecast.

Ontario led the country in economic growth in the second quarter of this year, turning in its best performance since 1988, at 8.4%. The pace of job creation is also the strongest in six years, providing Ontario with close to 160,000 new jobs in the past eight months, more than two thirds of them full-time. New jobs in Ontario account for one half the national total.

I would like to outline how this government has helped to create those jobs. We've encouraged businesses to take on new workers by cutting the health tax for the first year of employment. Our Jobs Ontario Training program has provided 60,000 job opportunities and helped workers in every industry to upgrade their skills. We have made it easier for the very important small and medium-sized firms in Ontario to get the funds they need in order to grow. Our aggressive capital programs are building the modern highways, the water treatment plants and other assets that all businesses need to be more productive.

There is a long-term payoff to our investments as well. The more productive structure of the province's economy will support strong growth over the next several years. In fact, it is the consensus of forecasters in the private sector that Ontario's economy will grow faster than any of the G-7 countries over the medium term.

We are seeing the benefits today. Thanks in part to the steps this government has taken, our factories are running again and our workers are back on the job. They are buying homes and spending their paycheques here in Ontario, spreading the gains into virtually every region and every industry in this province. We are seeing the impact of this growth in higher revenues for the year.

But the decline in the deficit reflects more than an economy on the move. It is also a measure of our commitment to put those extra revenues towards paying down the deficit.

We have set our course on spending and we are sticking to it. We are keeping our public services affordable now and for the future. We have worked long and hard to make sure we could do that without causing hardship to the people of this province.

Now the economy is growing and we have a chance to reap the benefits of the careful way we've managed spending. Using our extra revenues today to pay down the deficit will save us millions of dollars in interest costs in the future. That will help us to make sure we can meet important priorities when we need to. It will make today's economic growth the foundation for a stronger future.

With this revised figure today, we have brought the deficit down even faster than we had committed to in the budget document. Our plan to balance the needs of people in Ontario -- affordable services, economic growth and a more secure future -- is clearly working.

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): The fundamental problem, unfortunately, with the Minister of Finance's report is that nobody in the province believes the numbers any more. I say to the Minister of Finance that I'm quoting from the Provincial Auditor, and what the Provincial Auditor says is, "Our general concern is that legislators and the public are not now being provided with the financial information required to help them understand and assess the financial position...."

The Provincial Auditor has been relentless in getting the province to change the way it reports the books. Two weeks ago, the 1993-94 numbers were finally changed to reflect the real numbers at the insistence of the Provincial Auditor. He wouldn't even sign the books until the province changed the numbers. But what we've got here today is, the government continues to report this year's numbers using the old accounting tricks.

The Provincial Auditor will not sign these numbers. The Provincial Auditor does not agree with these numbers. These numbers will never, ever be agreed to by the Provincial Auditor, yet the government continues to put the numbers out. That's the problem.

I said earlier we put out our report on the finances, and we said it is imperative that we have a common set of books. "We are going to go through a period of substantial confusion as we have two sets of books," one by the government and one by the person that we trust, the Provincial Auditor. We said: "1994-95 is the year when the economic recovery should be giving us better results. With two sets of books, it is going to be impossible to measure the success of the recovery."

We've got that problem today. Yes, the economy is ticking along. Nationally it's ticking along. But we don't have the required reporting mechanisms to know how well we're doing, and I say to the Minister of Finance, it is absolutely imperative that you change the way you report so the Provincial Auditor can agree with these numbers.

I will just give you two or three examples of things that are going to happen this year. The government is planning to do the same thing with ferries and major equipment that it did with GO trains last year. What they did with GO trains last year -- and here's what the public accounts say: "At the request of the Ontario Minister of Finance, the authority" -- this is the transit authority -- "entered into a financing transaction." Under the terms, all the locomotives were sold for $431 million and immediately repurchased from the same counterparty at the same price.

In other words, they were flipped immediately. They were sold to a Bermuda company and then immediately bought back, and what did the taxpayers get for that? The taxpayers paid a fee of $4.271 million for that little flip. That's what it cost the taxpayers so the government could artificially show a lower deficit. And exactly the same thing is happening this year. We're going to see exactly the same thing where in one day they will sell it to somebody, buy it back the same day and pay a big fee.

Just across the road and around here, the government has "sold" all the government buildings: the Frost building, the Drew building, the Hepburn building, the Mowat building. Then they immediately leased them back; showed that as revenue and immediately leased them back. They're planning to do exactly the same thing, and the auditor says that's wrong. Time and again, the auditor has pointed it out. Last year it was $1.6 billion that he forced them to change the books.

What we've got today is a financial statement that says things are improving, and heaven knows, all of us are looking for good information, all of us are looking for positive information. I don't doubt that the economy is performing well, but you can't trust the numbers. You simply can't trust the numbers, and that's not me saying it, that's the Provincial Auditor.

Here's what we have. We have a set of numbers that only the government has faith in. The Provincial Auditor, the financial community, the opposition, say, "Listen, these aren't the right numbers." I would urge the Treasurer as strongly as I possibly can: The government is losing credibility with the financial community when the auditor refuses to sign the books unless you change them and then you continue to use a method that the auditor has no confidence in; and believe me, the auditor will not sign these books at the end of the year.

What we are faced with is the government coming forward with financial results today that I hope are indicative of the recovery. I hope revenues are going up, but nobody believes the numbers. We in the opposition will be insisting that the government bring forward the real numbers and that, secondly, as you prepare the budget for next year, it be in a way such that the Provincial Auditor finally can sign the books of this province without holding his nose.

Mr David Johnson (Don Mills): We're hearing today from the Minister of Finance that the Titanic isn't in such bad shape after all. The hole isn't quite as big -- $200 million less on the deficit of the province of Ontario.

But let me point out what really affects the taxpayers of the province of Ontario, and I'm looking at the 1994 budget, a document brought forward by the Minister of Finance himself. Under net financing for the province of Ontario in 1991-92, $10.8 billion had to be borrowed to balance the books of the province of Ontario. In 1992-93, $15.5 billion had to be borrowed. In 1993-94, $11.5 billion had to be borrowed. In 1994-95, the minister tells us, to balance the books of the province of Ontario, it is $8.3 billion.

The problem is, who do we believe? The minister says today $8.3 billion. The Dominion Bond Rating Service says $11.6 billion. The auditor of the province of Ontario says he doesn't agree with the accounting methods of the Minister of Finance. Indeed, the Minister of Finance has recently agreed to bring in a new accounting system, an accrual accounting system, and that system would dictate that the deficit this year is in excess of $10 billion for the province of Ontario.

The debt now of the province of Ontario -- and this is what really worries the people of Ontario -- will be in excess of $90 billion at the end of this fiscal year. The liabilities, as we speak here today, of Ontario exceed $95 billion. By the end of this fiscal year, the liabilities of the province will be in excess of $100 billion. The liabilities of the people of the province of Ontario will be over $100 billion. That's the mortgage we're passing on. That's the victory that's being claimed today by the Minister of Finance. That is a very hollow victory.

Talk about jobs. The Finance minister would talk about jobs in the province of Ontario. When this government took office in 1990, there were almost five million people employed in the province of Ontario, 4,937,000 people employed in the province of Ontario. At the end of this fiscal year, by the Minister of Finance's own accounts, there will be almost 100,000 fewer people employed in Ontario than when this government came into office. Should we boast about that? Should we boast about the Jobs Ontario program when we have fewer people employed today in the province of Ontario than we did when this government took office four years ago?

What is required? Instead of the hollow boasting we've heard today, what is required in the province of Ontario?

(1) Call an election. If we want to restore confidence in the economy of Ontario, if we want to create jobs in the province of Ontario, call an election.

(2) We need a solid program to address the problems facing us economically in Ontario. We need the Common Sense Revolution.

We know, and the business community tells us and the budget of the Minister of Finance tells us, that to create jobs we need to cut taxes. Cut the personal income tax by 30% in the province of Ontario. That's what the Common Sense Revolution calls for.

We know we have to cut expenditures in the province of Ontario from $55 billion to $49 billion, a reduction of $6 billion. We need to eliminate the employer health tax for small business; we need to reduce the workers' compensation premiums; we need to freeze Ontario Hydro rates; we need to cut the red tape that's strangling business. If we're going to create jobs in the province of Ontario, these are the kinds of programs that are required.

We need to downsize all levels of government. The Common Sense Revolution calls for a downsizing of 15% of the size of the provincial government, some 13,000 staff members. These are the actions that are needed to create jobs and to balance the budget.

Mr Norman W. Sterling (Carleton): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'd like to ask for unanimous consent to say a few words about a departed former member of the Legislature.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Agreed.

RUSSELL DANIEL ROWE

Mr Norman W. Sterling (Carleton): It's with great sadness that I inform the Legislature of the passing of Russell Daniel Rowe, who represented Northumberland in this House from 1963 to 1981. He was a veteran pilot of the Second World War who served overseas with the Royal Canadian Air Force. He was a former teacher, successful businessman, community activist and politician.

Prior to becoming Speaker of this Legislature, Russell served as Chairman of the very controversial select committee on economic and cultural nationalism. It was at this time that he established himself as a political straight-shooter, showing no bias from the Chair. His reputation served him well later when he became the Speaker of this Legislature in 1974.

His term as Speaker was during a period of great change. The office of Speaker had become much more onerous, as he was given the additional task of administrating this Legislature, which had formerly been done by the Ministry of Government Services.

His term also encompassed a period of one of the weakest minority governments in Ontario's history. There was great concern expressed by members at that time that he was too mild-mannered to handle, as a 1974 Toronto Star

article pointed out, the rowdiest Legislature in the country. However, the

article also went along to describe him as a mild-mannered but fair politician, and that was the beauty of this man and the style he brought to the Speaker's chair. He was able to control the Legislature by relying on his integrity of being fair to all members of all parties in this House.

Even with a small minority PC government in 1975 to 1977, Russell Rowe was elected as a second-term Speaker and as a third-term Speaker.

As Speaker and MPP, Russell put the business of Parliament ahead of his party loyalty in the conviction that the Legislature existed to serve all people. Consequently he had the respect of his colleagues and the affection of his constituents. This respect did not diminish once he left public life.

After his retirement he continued to remain active in politics and volunteered his time for a wide range of community activities. Perhaps his hallmark, if one travels these halls and looks at his picture that is hung in this Legislature, one will notice, is his wonderful warm, friendly smile.

I spoke with his wife, Marjorie, recently and she pointed out that he enjoyed and loved his time in this Legislature. He never complained about his duties as an MPP or as a politician and the hard work that he fulfilled for his constituents.

On behalf of the Legislature, I want to express our sympathies and condolences to his wife, Marjorie, his six children, his 11 grandchildren and all of his friends in his home town of Cobourg who miss him so very much. We would also like to express our appreciation to Marjorie and his children for sharing him with us, with his community and with the people of Ontario. He served us well.

Hon Brian A. Charlton (Government House Leader): I did actually share Russell's last term here, from 1977 till 1981, and although I didn't get to see Russell as Speaker for very long, because he stepped down as Speaker shortly into that 1977-81 session, I did get to know Russell a little bit and found him to be, as in most of the stories I've seen written about him in the media, a very honest, straightforward, plain-talking and, in many respects, gentle man; not "gentleman" in the sense of the classic use of that word but gentle in his approach, both to people and to issues.

He's one of those elected politicians who took the time both to speak his mind and to listen, something that today far too often we find missing in many of the things that go on in public life.

Russell did serve as the Speaker in this House from 1974 to 1977. As you know, sir, that's a particularly difficult and trying task, and for those of my colleagues, and there are a few left, who were here in the 1975-77 period it was a particularly rowdy period, with the first minority government after some 38 years of majority rule in this province. You, sir, having experienced some of the rowdiness in the last four years, have some sympathy, I would think, with the difficulty that Russell faced in trying to control the House and to ensure progress of the government legislative agenda.

Russell also, though, did double duty on a lot of occasions. In the early 1970s he was not only Deputy Speaker and Chair of the committee of the whole House, but he chaired the select committee on economic and cultural nationalism in Canada. Although again it was a little before my time, I recall reading about some of the work of that committee, which was very extensive, including a lot of travel both in Canada and around the world, and consumed a considerable amount of time and effort on the part of the members who served that committee.

I think it is a reflection of the kind of individual that Russell Rowe was, and it's a reflection of his ultimate contribution to the people of this province, a contribution that I think is reflected by many we've spoken about in the past, a contribution of personal self-sacrifice. Certainly it isn't a seeking of wealth as a result of his time here but a seeking of pride and sense of accomplishment for the work that he delivered on behalf of not only his own constituents in Northumberland but also the people of the province of Ontario.

It's with some pride that we stand and address remarks to Russell Rowe and to other members who have preceded us here because of the very substantial benefit that they've created, both for the system in this province and for the province we now have to deal with. It would have been much less a place to live in if it hadn't been for their efforts and their direction.

On behalf of the government, I wish to express my sympathies to Russell's family and to pay tribute to his career as a legislator and to his time as Speaker of the House and to again, as Norm so aptly put it, thank his family for having lent him to us for almost just shy of 20 years.

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): I want to, on behalf of my colleagues in the Liberal Party, associate ourselves with the words of the government House leader and the member for Carleton, Mr Sterling, in paying tribute to the public life of the late Russell Rowe. I want to do so with particular emphasis on the comments that have been made to me just in the last little while by my colleague Mrs Fawcett, the member for Northumberland who has succeeded to the late Mr Rowe's constituency, and Mr O'Neil, the member from the neighbouring constituency of Quinte.

Russ Rowe was the Speaker of this Legislature 20 years ago when Hugh O'Neil and I came here as newly minted members. We were sharing some of the memories of Mr Speaker Rowe and they are very happy and positive memories indeed.

John A. Macdonald once said that no man could be as honest as Sir John Carling looked. Russell Rowe was a happy, decent, sunny politician, and that's the way he looked. Earlier today I went to look at his official portrait on the lower west wing of this building, and for those of you who don't know the late Mr Speaker Rowe, you might go and take a look at the portrait. I don't think the portrait captures the essence of a truly sunny political personality, and all of us who have borne the pressures and the strains of public life know that it's not always easy to be happy. But Russell Rowe was what he appeared: a happy, decent, sunny politician and personality.

In fact I remember, Mr Speaker, on one of the very earliest days here when in 1975 we reconvened, as has been observed, in the first minority Parliament of over 30 years, Mr Speaker Rowe, sitting in your chair, trying to restrain the enthusiasms of Eddie Sargent. I want to tell you that was not an easy task, and in fact Eddie had on that occasion become somewhat anatomical in his references across the way. Eddie was happy too but unbridled, and Russ just had that gentle touch, and a firmness when required.

I must say, shortly thereafter and through much of that session, 1975 to 1977, he was left to arbitrate quite vigorous debates. I remember a couple between Darcy McKeough and Stephen Lewis where the real issue was varying colours -- red, pink and blue. Mr Lewis and Mr McKeough were very vigorous and very significant debaters, and Mr Rowe kept a very even keel.

I see the Treasurer smiling because he's probably -- he is the only one who would remember that famous select committee on economic and cultural nationalism. I had in fact forgotten that Russ Rowe was the Chair of that committee, and as I think has been mentioned by the government House leader, there has not been in 20 years anything like it, and I suspect not again in our lifetime will there be such a commission. In fact, the late Osie Villeneuve once told me that when that committee was doing important work, I think in Stockholm, they learned things about Swedish culture that they had not dreamt of.

But I simply want to say that Russ Rowe's political legacy is one of decency, commitment, public service. He really was a wonderful fellow. Those of us who knew him will remember him fondly and well, and on behalf of my caucus colleagues, we want to express to his wife, to his family and to his many friends our deep appreciation for an exemplary public life.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Speaker Rowe was the first Speaker under whom I served, and as has been described this afternoon, he had a great sense of fairness and a deep understanding of Parliament, and was indeed a kind and gentle person. It was a great privilege to serve in the House, especially as a new member under the leadership of a Speaker such as he.

The kind remarks that have been said this afternoon will be sent to the family of Speaker Russell Rowe.

ACCESS TO PUBLIC GALLERY

Mr Cameron Jackson (Burlington South): I rise in accordance with

section 21(

a) of our standing orders with respect to a matter of privilege. Yesterday, there were approximately 250 to almost 300 individuals, members of the community at large, who presented themselves here at Queen's Park to sit in our public gallery.

During the course of the session, they were denied access to the public galleries. I consider this a serious matter and when it was brought to my attention, we responded. These were predominantly senior citizens and women workers who assist seniors, many of whom had been standing in line since 11 o'clock in order to be present for the Legislature sitting yesterday.

Hon Floyd Laughren (Minister of Finance): You did not organize it very well.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Order.

Mr Jackson: I want to apprise the Treasurer that I did not organize this meeting. In fact, it was a group of 35 senior citizens from the riding of Dovercourt, Italian senior citizens, to whom I made available the PC caucus office because they were barred access to the galleries. The current minister from Dovercourt presented himself to our caucus in order to have access to speak to those individuals.

My reason for raising this, Mr Speaker, is I'd like you to undertake an investigation as to why there were so many vacant and empty seats in the House yesterday when there were between 100 and 150 individuals standing outside waiting to get in. The Minister of Health made reference yesterday briefly to the fact that there were only 50 people in the House, and that would have not been a clear indication of the number of people who were present here yesterday and also would not be fair, given that people went home to hear that on television when in fact these individuals were barred access to the gallery.

I would respectfully request you investigate --

The Speaker: Order. The member for Burlington South first will know that he does not have a point of privilege. However, I appreciate the concern which he has brought to my attention and will endeavour to find a reply to the question which he raises.

ORAL QUESTIONS

CANCER TREATMENT

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): My first question is for the Minister of Health. Minister, over the past year I have raised with you on at least two occasions the issue of access to cancer drugs in Ontario. I have specifically raised the issue of physicians obtaining approval for use of a drug known as GCSF for patients who are critically ill with cancer. Doctors and their patients in the past have encountered two significant problems in trying to access the drug.

First, it was taking many weeks in some cases to get approval. I understand that this issue has been resolved to a large degree.

The second concern was that the guidelines that are used to approve the use of the drug are too vague and, as a result of that vagueness, there appears to be inconsistency in the application.

Minister, I would ask today that you provide this House with an update on these two concerns and any progress that you feel has been made in addressing them.

Hon Ruth Grier (Minister of Health): I'm aware that this is an issue that the Leader of the Opposition has raised before. As I responded to her then, the time that it takes for approval of applications for this drug, which I call Neupogen -- GCSF I think is the word the Leader of the Opposition uses -- has been significantly decreased. In fact, if people are not eligible under the guidelines, they can be told almost immediately. Each case is reviewed by the Drug Quality and Therapeutics Committee, and the guidelines are not vague. I think they're quite clear.

We endeavour to inform people as quickly as possible because we certainly understand how important it is for patients to know whether this drug is going to be covered by the ministry.

Mrs McLeod: Minister, as you're aware, I gave notice earlier in the day that I would be today raising a very specific case where a patient apparently met the criteria for receiving the drug but was denied access to the drug. The patient is a young man in his 20s. He has cancer from which his physician believes that he can recover. However, he is critically ill and, his physician believes, in need of GCSF.

We understand that this is the major criterion for approving the drug: It is to be used to save a patient's life. It is to be part of a therapy which is potentially curative. But even though this case appears to meet that major criterion, the patient's physician has applied to your ministry for approval twice and has been turned down. Just recently the physician applied to the ministry again for approval.

I gave notice that I would be raising the case because quite clearly this is a devastating situation for the young man and for his family. His parents wish to travel here today because of their growing alarm about the refusal to approve the drug for their son and what that means for his chance for recovery.

Minister, having given you notice of the issue, can you offer us any explanation as to why a patient who apparently met the criterion for receiving this drug would be turned down?

Hon Mrs Grier: I very much appreciate the fact that the Leader of the Opposition's office did inform us that she would be raising questions about this drug today, but I think she also is very aware that as Minister of Health I'm not able to comment on a specific patient, a specific application.

In her first question she talked about the application of guidelines and approvals for payment of this expensive drug, a very necessary one to people who have cancer, and let me say to her that I think all of us, and particularly all of us who are parents, understand what it means to need a drug and not be able to obtain it.

But I'm not a physician and neither is the Leader of the Opposition, and that's why there are guidelines, and those are developed by people who are experts in cancer treatment and who very clearly say, "These are the conditions under which a particular drug should be dispensed and should be covered." That is my responsibility as Minister of Health, to follow those guidelines.

Mrs McLeod: Minister, I guess I'm concerned that, having given notice of the question, you have not indicated that you're prepared at least to review the specific case and determine why the approval was not given. There were no reasons given for not approving the use of the drug. The physician applied for the use of the drug believing that his patient met the criteria for receiving approval. His professional opinion was supported by two other physicians who believed that this patient met the criteria for receiving approval for the drug.

There is confusion, Minister, about the consistency with which the guidelines are being applied, and in the absence of clarity and the absence of explanation of when the drug is approved and when it's not approved, it clearly raises false expectations of hope, and I think that that's just not something that we can allow to happen.

I would ask you, Minister, if you would be prepared to pursue this case, which I believe is an urgent one and which deserves a response, deserves some clarity. I raise the case because I believe that it does point to very serious inconsistencies in the way in which approval is being granted and the way in which the program is administered, so I would ask whether you would both pursue this particular case to determine why approval was not given and, as well, review the administration of the program so that we can be sure that people who need this lifesaving drug are able to get the approval and get it promptly.

Hon Mrs Grier: I'd be happy to ask my officials to review the specific case, but I have to say to the Leader of the Opposition I have a copy of the guidelines in front of me. They are very clear. There are some indications for use and there are circumstances in which this drug is not recommended. Those guidelines are prepared by the Ontario Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation. I know that the Leader of the Opposition has, on many occasions, quoted and supported the recommendations of the OCTRF.

We consider ourselves very fortunate in this province to have institutions like OCTRF and OCI to give us advice in how to deal with cancer, and this government has put in place a cancer strategy and has devoted resources to cancer based on the recommendations of OCTRF.

I will certainly review this case, but I am very confident that we're getting the best advice that anyone in the world can get about cancer in this province.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): New question.

Mrs McLeod: Mr Speaker, just to be clear, the minister has said that she will review the case and review it as well in terms of what it says about the administration of the guidelines, and I appreciate that.

FINANCIAL PROCEDURES

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): I will make my second question to the Minister of Finance. I have not given him notice of this question, but I know it's an issue with which he is well aware.

In the past three years, we've been calling on this government to keep its books in a way that will give a clear and accurate picture of this province's finances. We happen to believe that this government, and this government in a unique and truly creative way, has used clever accounting procedures in order to show lower expenditures and higher revenues as a way of understating its deficit.

Thanks to the Provincial Auditor, the NDP has now been forced to acknowledge that its 1993-94 deficit is $10.8 billion, up from the budget figure of $9.3 billion which the Minister of Finance reported in his last budget. But we could hardly believe our ears when, the very day that the auditor forced the government to acknowledge the true deficit figure in the past budget, the Finance minister said that he's going to continue to use the old accounting methods in his budget to estimate future deficits.

Minister, the auditor has said that your accounting practices give a false public impression of the true state of this province's finances. Why are you determined to keep playing the shell game?

Hon Floyd Laughren (Minister of Finance): I very much appreciate the question from the leader of the official opposition and the fact that she did not give me notice. I should say to her that it's particularly satisfying to have this question come from the Liberal opposition given some of their past shenanigans with keeping the books when they were the government.

There is one set of books in the province of Ontario. Those are the public accounts of the province of Ontario. There always has been, always will be, one set of books for the province of Ontario. It's never been anything different than that, never, ever, ever.

I should tell you, though, that since the public sector accounting and auditing board decided that all of the provinces across Canada should move on to one system called accrual and consolidation as opposed to the cash method that other governments here had followed forever, all of the provinces are moving in the same way we are.

I should tell the leader of the official opposition that six provinces all have their budgets reported differently from their public financial statements. That includes British Columbia, a New Democratic Party government; Newfoundland, a Liberal government; Nova Scotia, a Liberal government; Alberta, a Conservative government; Saskatchewan, an NDP government; and Manitoba, a Conservative government.

When you move from one system of reporting the way in which the auditor of the day wants things to be reported, of course there's a hiatus between the time you start that and the time you move to the new system.

Interjections.

Hon Mr Laughren: Well, if you'll listen, I'll explain. I have written to the auditor already and told him that in the budget for 1995-96, there will be a comparison of the accrual and consolidation system of reporting and the cash method of reporting. So there is nothing confusing except in the mind of the leader of the official opposition. There's nothing unusual.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Could the minister conclude his response, please.

Hon Mr Laughren: This government has been more open and consultative about budget-making than any government in the history of this province.

Mrs McLeod: There is no confusion in my mind at all. I know that the auditor signed our books. Furthermore, I happen to recall that the auditor signed books that showed a balanced year-end budget that had all the operating and all the capital dollars in that balanced budget.

There's just no doubt in anybody's mind that the government engaged in these kinds of accounting procedures in order to make a desperate deficit situation look a little bit less desperate. The concern we want to raise today, because the auditor has demonstrated the truth of what we've been raising for the past three years, is that these kinds of games are played at a very real cost to the taxpayers of this province.

In this year's public accounts, we learned that the government's sale and leaseback of GO Transit will cost taxpayers $4.3 million. I want to make clear what happened here. On March 31, the Toronto Area Transit Operating Authority sold GO Transit to a Bermuda company and then it leased the same trains back for approximately the same money. In other words, it was a break-even deal except for the fact that it cost taxpayers $4.3 million in bankers' fees: $4.3 million for a break-even deal.

Minister, will you admit that the leasing of GO Transit cost taxpayers $4.3 million and will you at least commit to us today that you will abandon the practice of using taxpayers' dollars to finance break-even deals?

Hon Mr Laughren: Perhaps I should put the issue in a bit of context. When the critic for the official opposition first started to raise this matter, I thought, "Maybe I'd better do a little bit of checking," and I went back and guess what I discovered? When the Liberal government had a program called Homes Now, guess where they showed the borrowing for Homes Now? It wasn't on the budget, oh no: off-budget.

They can stand in partisan antics and say that what we're doing is different from what everybody else has done, but that's simply not the case. When I went back and looked at the last two budgets prepared by the Treasurer of the day, Mr Nixon, guess what I found there? I found that if they had been operating under the same system we're moving to now, there would have been a substantial difference in the numbers that were reported. Of course when you move from one system to another, you have a different set of numbers; that should be a given, so the leader of the official opposition is simply wrong.

When it came to the sale and saleback of the GO Transit rolling stock, I'll go back and check my numbers, but my information was that there was a saving of over $1 million in that sale and saleback. Now, for the leader of the official opposition --

The Speaker: Could the minister conclude his response, please.

Hon Mr Laughren: -- a million dollars may not be worth saving for the taxpayers of the province of Ontario. We think that is worth saving.

Mrs McLeod: I think when there is no answer, you revert to a revisionist version of history, which is really the substance of the Treasurer's answer.

The question was whether or not the GO Transit deal came at a cost of $4.3 million to Ontario taxpayers, as was revealed in the public accounts committee. We will wait for an answer from the Treasurer, but I raise the issue because it's just one more example of the kind of shell game the government has been playing to make the deficit look lower than it actually is. In this case, we believe it cost the taxpayers $4.3 million, and that's why we're amazed that the Treasurer keeps saying he wants to keep playing the game.

Given the fact that the Finance minister appears determined to continue with this approach to reporting the province's finances, let's see where that leaves us with this year's budget. We figure that with the new accounting changes, the 1994-95 deficit is likely at least $1.5 billion higher than the $8.5 billion you projected in this year's budget, or what has now become $8.3 billion. You may want to deny it, Treasurer, but because of your refusal to use the proper accounting practices in figuring out the budget figures, nobody really knows what the deficit will be this year.

In the interest of reassuring financial markets and Ontario's taxpayers, will you release a true estimate of the province's 1994-95 budget deficit based on the accounting practices that the auditor has called for?

Hon Mr Laughren: First of all, the auditor just reported on the 1993-94 set of books and he approved that set of books in an unqualified way; absolutely no qualifying statements whatsoever. I would say to the leader of the official opposition that we are doing absolutely everything the Provincial Auditor wants us to do. We are reporting the books on the new system of accrual and consolidation. The budget is not the set of books. How often does the leader of the official opposition have to be told that a budget is a projection --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Hon Mr Laughren: If you don't want to listen, I guess there's no sense explaining, but I can tell you that there's not an accountant in the world who would say that a budget, which is a projection of what you intend to do that year, is an audited set of books. No auditor audits the budget. The auditor audits the public financial statements of the province, and he signed it off, 100% pure. There is no difference whatsoever between what the auditor wants us to do and what we're doing. Just as in those other provinces that are moving from one system to another, Ontario is as well. There's absolutely nothing unusual about that.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH SPENDING

Mr Michael D. Harris (Nipissing): My question's to the Minister of Health, if I could have a page send one of these over to the Minister of Health, please.

Recently, your ministry couriered 500 of the forms that I have just sent over to you to Dr Ockenden of the Hamilton Civic Hospital. This form is a laboratory requisition that Dr Ockenden, as the emergency room physician, says he has no use for whatsoever. How many of these forms were sent out to doctors who do not need them, and at what cost to taxpayers and to our health care system?

Hon Ruth Grier (Minister of Health): It is a blank form that is called a laboratory requisition and has a doctor's name in the corner, presumably for use by the physician. I don't know how many were sent out; I don't know at what cost. If the leader of the third party doesn't include that in the

preamble to his next question, I will endeavour to find out as soon as possible.

Mr Harris: Could I have a few pages take these over.

Minister, I have been informed so far of at least 56 doctors who were couriered these eight-pound cartons of forms, with their name already printed on them, who tell me they have no use for them. In fact, I have 28 boxes of these forms that they asked me to return to you in person in the interest of saving money.

A courier company we contacted estimated the courier cost alone to send these to all Ontario doctors at the super-duper reduced government volume rate would be $300,000. The real clincher is, though, that when doctors called your ministry to ask, "What do we do with these unnecessary forms that we don't want?" they were told to shred them. How can you justify this cavalier and wasteful attitude from your ministry at a time when health care dollars are so precious?

Hon Mrs Grier: I will certainly endeavour to get the facts. I'm not sure I am getting the facts in the

preamble to the second question. Never having seen these before, it appears to me as though, in anticipation of the fact that doctors are likely to request tests from a laboratory, they were sent, in advance, blank forms that would enable them to do that. Their names were on them, including their correct practitioner number, presumably to avoid mistakes. Of course, if a doctor's name is on a blank form, that form cannot be used by any other physician and the only course is to waste them.

But if you're telling me there are doctors out there who don't intend to requisition tests from a laboratory, then I would agree with you that they do not need these forms and I will assure you that they will not be sent them in the future.

Mr Harris: Why were they sent them in the first place when nobody asked for them? Minister, these forms come from Data Business Forms Ltd. Last year alone, according to the blue book, your ministry paid $1.7 million for forms from this company. At a time when you're denying out-of-country coverage to seniors against the law of the land, the Canada Health Act, at a time when you are delisting drugs and procedures, at a time when you are bringing in more and more user fees, when you have closed 8,000 hospital beds, what specific assurance can you give us that this fiasco is an isolated incident and that you have any control over wasteful spending in the Ministry of Health?

Hon Mrs Grier: To be asked a question about waste in the Ministry of Health from the member of a previous government that had health card numbers for I think 22 million people in the province is a little hard to take. Let me assure the member that management of the Ministry of Health has greatly improved over the last five years and that our Ministry of Health is very concerned to make sure that there is no fraud, that there is no waste and that any doctor who submits a requisition for a laboratory use is in fact who they purport to be and is doing it in the proper way. That's what good management is about.

As I said in response to the first question, I will find out the facts of the situation and I will report to the House as quickly as I can.

ARNOLD MINORS

Mr Robert W. Runciman (Leeds-Grenville): My question is for the Solicitor General.

Arnold Minors, your government's appointee to the Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board and your intended successor as chair to the Liberal Party's board appointee Susan Eng, was quoted several weeks ago as saying the Holocaust, in which in estimated six million Jews were murdered, was not a racist act.

On October 7, Premier Rae indicated in the media reports that his office had asked you, the Solicitor General, for a full report. Apparently the Attorney General, through her ministry, is conducting that investigation. That was over three weeks ago.

We know the Attorney General has moved to cancel the anti-racism courses conducted by Mr Minors. Can you tell us, tell the Legislature, tell the people of Metropolitan Toronto, why you, as Solicitor General, haven't taken any action with respect to Mr Minors's responsibilities as a member of the police services board?

Hon David Christopherson (Solicitor General): The comments in question by the honourable member were indeed related to activities that an individual was carrying out in relation to a contractual agreement they had with the Attorney General's ministry and not in a capacity as an appointee through my ministry and from this government. Therefore, the relationship and any questions around that relationship lie with the Attorney General and not the Solicitor General.

Mr Chris Stockwell (Etobicoke West): You've got to be kidding. The Attorney General hires him and you take no responsibility for the --

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Order. The member for Etobicoke West is out of order.

Interjection.

The Speaker: Would the member take his seat, please. I'd ask the member for Etobicoke West to please come to order.

Mr Runciman: That's an astonishing response, to say the least. We could go back over the years with respect to his leader and his role on this side of the House in response to these kinds of allegations. I wonder if his leader would have the same perspective with respect to the comments made in the teachings of Mr Keegstra in Alberta and other things that have occurred in this country, let alone this province, in the past decade or more.

Mr Anthony Perruzza (Downsview): Come off it. Make yourself clear. Go ahead, say what you want to say.

The Speaker: Order, the member for Downsview.

Mr Runciman: Over the next two days the Metro police services board will be selecting a new chief of police for the Metropolitan Toronto area. This is indeed a critical decision, with long-term implications for policing in Metropolitan Toronto.

According to a report in the Toronto Star today -- I know we can't rely on that completely, but it's a pretty clear indication that Mr Minors is an individual who has little credibility in terms of the public, has virtually no public support, yet may cast the deciding vote in this crucial decision, the selection of a new police chief. Will you, at the very least, suspend Mr Minors from participation in the selection of a new chief while this Holocaust cloud hangs over his head?

Hon Mr Christopherson: The issue of previous comments that I have indeed referred to the Ontario Civilian Commission on Police Services is where I believe it properly should be for a formal and proper investigation.

The issue of whether or not someone remains in their appointed capacity while such an investigation is being undertaken is dealt with by the legislation, that allows that an individual would remain. That would apply, I would advise the honourable member, whether we're talking about a police services board member, whether we're talking about a chief, whether we're talking about any other entity that may be indeed sent to the commission. For that reason, the individual being mentioned continues to sit on the Metro police services board as a full member unless and until the commission decides or recommends otherwise.

Mr Stockwell: If this were a cop, he'd be suspended.

The Speaker: The member for Etobicoke West is asked to come to order. I caution the member that if he does not come to order, he will be named.

Mr Stockwell: If it were a cop, you'd suspend him.

Hon Floyd Laughren (Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance): You're a class act.

Mr Stockwell: Your guy's the class act. He won't answer a question.

The Speaker: The member for Etobicoke West, if he refuses to come to order, will be named.

Mr Runciman: This is a very disturbing response we're receiving from the Solicitor General. Clearly, he and his government are playing political games with this matter. We have allegations, and I will classify them as allegations, of anti-Semitic teachings, and this minister suggests that because those teachings fall under the purview of another ministry, he's washing his hands completely of that matter. Unbelievable.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Would the member place his question, please.

Mr Runciman: Over the years, the current governing party and its leader have consistently talked a good fight about the evils of racism, but in this situation, dealing with one of your own political appointees, with serious allegations hanging over his head, you refuse to act.

Minister, your cabinet colleague the Attorney General had the intestinal fortitude to cancel the anti-racism courses conducted by Mr Minors, yet you continue to waffle. There's a critical decision coming up this week that will affect policing for decades in Metropolitan Toronto. I ask you once again, on behalf of the people of Metropolitan Toronto, will you act and suspend Mr Minors from participation in the choice of a new police chief for Metro Toronto?

Hon Mr Christopherson: If there's anybody in this House who's played political games with the issue of public safety and policing, particularly as it relates to Metropolitan Toronto police, it's the honourable member who was just on his feet.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Would the member take his seat.

Interjections.

Mr Stockwell: If it was a cop, you would have hung him.

Mr Perruzza: If you think I'm going to stay here and take that -- who would do that?

The Speaker: The member for Downsview is asked to come to order. Minister.

Hon Mr Christopherson: Let me just conclude my comments by saying that for a party that has a long history and tradition, particularly in this province, of believing in and supporting due process, it has been, during the course of this particular Parliament, the third party that's been the first one that wants to ditch due process time after time after time. This government will not succumb to that kind of pressure.

Mr Runciman: When it comes to action, you don't take any action. You're a phoney, David, a complete and utter phoney. That's what you are. Sit down.

The Speaker: Order. Will the member for Leeds-Grenville come to order. The member for Leeds-Grenville is using unparliamentary language. I ask the member to withdraw the remark.

Mr Runciman: I withdraw, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Had the minister completed his remark?

Hon Mr Christopherson: I have attempted to be helpful in trying to point out the kinds of processes and legislative requirements that are in place, but constantly the third party does not want to hear that, so I would have to say to you that I have done my best to answer the legitimate parts of the questions that I could find.

GROSS REVENUE INSURANCE PLAN

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): My question is for the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs. Minister, four years ago your Premier pledged support for the new agriculture stabilization program called the gross revenue insurance plan, or GRIP as it's known to farmers. At that time, you led the farmers of this province to believe that your government was committed to fully funding this program. It is four years later and you have yet to do so.

I'm sure you're aware that a number of weeks ago the corn producers of Ontario wrote to the Premier to indicate their deep disappointment with the bluntness with which he had rejected their request that you live up to the promise your government made. Minister, can I ask you why you have decided to break your promise to Ontario's farmers.

Hon Elmer Buchanan (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs): That's kind of an amazing question in terms of our commitment. We've always been committed to the GRIP program. We've been committed to NISA. The program actually was designed by the farmers of Canada. It was implemented very quickly by the government of Ontario. I think what the member is trying to suggest is that there was a promise of 85% funding. The program was designed and set at 80%. That's what we promised; that's what we delivered. The plan is working, it's successful and the farmers appreciate the support they've got from this government.

Mrs McLeod: I'm glad the minister remembers the promise, but the farmers of this province do not see you as having kept that promise. You know very well that the reforms that have been requested by the corn producers and by a coalition of farm groups across the province to fix the GRIP program are not going to cost you additional dollars. You know that because of declining prices the changes will cost millions of dollars less than you spent under the program this year and last year.

You also are well aware that this is a federal-provincial-producer shared program, where the federal government picks up 45% of the costs of the program, so that for every dollar the province allocates, the federal government contributes almost $2. As a result of the program not being fully funded, the farmers of this province are receiving less support than farmers in other provinces.

Minister, I ask, why would you refuse to consider changes to the program when it jeopardizes matching federal funds, and why would you not feel that Ontario farmers deserve their fair share?

Hon Mr Buchanan: I'm not exactly sure what kind of bookkeeping the Leader of the Opposition keeps, but I just heard her say that we could increase from 80% to 85% and it wouldn't cost any money. We heard from the Minister of Finance a few minutes ago about keeping books, but I don't understand this.

We are committed to GRIP and NISA, and if the Leader of the Opposition wants to be critical and do something for farmers, she might talk to her Liberal friends in Ottawa. We are interested in putting in place a whole farm program so that all farmers could be included in a whole farm program. We're prepared to put our money on the table, we're prepared to implement it tomorrow, and we can't get movement and leadership from the Liberal government in Ottawa. In fact, some of the other provinces are not willing to come to the table. We're willing to do that. If we just put money into the GRIP program, we will not have what we need to put a whole farm program in place.

I notice that the leader had a conference this morning and endorsed our agriculture and rural policies. I'm very pleased. I want to thank her for endorsing our policies and our platform that we've been putting in place over the last four years.

GOVERNMENT SPENDING

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): My question is to the Chair of Management Board. I wonder, Minister, if you could tell us, in these days of fiscal restraint, exactly what kind of direction you have given to your ministries and to government agencies about ensuring that tax dollars are not wasted on meetings being held in expensive hotels and other similar junkets.

Hon Brian A. Charlton (Chair of the Management Board of Cabinet): I'm not precisely sure, and I'm sure I'll find out in the supplementary, what the member is going to come back with. This is an issue that's been raised a number of times.

I can tell you that in general the directions that have gone out to ministries are directions that suggest that the most efficient and economical way of holding and paying for functions should be sought out, and in every single category where the government runs functions, whether they're training functions or whatever they might be, we've substantially reduced the overall operational costs of this government: on average, across the board, by 24% in four years.

Mrs Marland: Well, if you've done such a good job, then I guess you would probably be interested in answering my second question, which deals with the Advocacy Commission. Just in case you might have forgotten, the Advocacy Commission is chaired by the close personal adviser and friend of the Premier, David Reville, now in his new $125,000-a-year job. The Advocacy Commission itself, of course, is going to operate at somewhere between $30 million and $100 million in cost in this province.

This commission held a meeting a week ago, over the weekend of October 22, at the Harbour Castle hotel in Toronto, which I think the minister would agree is certainly a luxurious hotel located in this city.

I would like to ask you, Minister, is this not a double standard, a holier-than-thou attitude? While you have been in opposition in this House and demanded of every government before you that there are all kinds of rooms available over in the Macdonald Block, and for the size of the Advocacy Commission they may well have been able to use the cabinet room itself, would you approve the chair, David Reville, taking the Advocacy Commission to a meeting in the Harbour Castle hotel?

Hon Mr Charlton: With respect to holier than thou, there is nobody in the government of Ontario who could surpass the member opposite. Nobody.

With respect to the specific question she's raised about the Advocacy Commission, I'm not familiar with the details. I will look into the matter. But as I said at the outset of my first answer, which is something she doesn't want to hear or understand, all ministries have been instructed to seek out the most cost-effective way of delivering the service, event or whatever the question happens to be that's required.

In that context -- and again, I will get the specific details on this case -- many of those establishments which the member across the way thinks of as luxurious may or may not be. We, for example, have gone out and reduced rents in accommodations that were rented by the former government by some 38% or 40% because of the particular times we happen to be in, and those times often have an impact on what accommodations cost. We'll look into the matter.

FRUIT GROWERS

Mr Ron Hansen (Lincoln): My question is to the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs. Last May the government announced $20 million for the Niagara tender fruit lands program. This unique program is designed to protect at least 2,000 acres of Niagara's fruit lands by giving farmers a per-acre cash settlement over five years. This is in exchange for perpetual deeding of their land for farming.

The last I heard, a committee had been formed to draft some guidelines as to who will qualify for this program. Many farmers have since asked me when the first cheques will be issued. Can the minister give us an update on the Niagara tender fruit lands program?

Hon Elmer Buchanan (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs): That's an excellent question. The member referred to a committee, which is a committee of ministry staff, region of Niagara staff and farmers, which was putting together the implementation around this program. They have done so. The program has now been endorsed by the region of Niagara, and it was going to put some money in as well. I think it's important to recognize the fact that this is a cooperative program between the region, the province and farmers. The committee has done its work. The implementation is ready to go. The region endorsed the plan.

Now, they have still not withdrawn their three official plan amendments that we were objecting to a few years ago, and one of the conditions of sending the cheques out is that they would remove those official plan amendments that we did not want to endorse. I hope to meet with the region. I understand that the municipal politicians are very busy this particular season, but we will have a meeting very quickly, and I hope we can get our differences resolved and get the cheques out as soon as possible. That's the best I can do.

Mr Hansen: Can the minister tell us whether this program will be expanded in the future to protect more tender fruit lands?

Hon Mr Buchanan: That's a question that's often asked and I think it's important to answer it. The question is that we're not going to consider expanding it until we get the program up and running and see how it works and if there may be some minor adjustments required. We want to make sure it's working and working well before we expand it. I would certainly be in favour of looking at it, but we're not going to concentrate on expanding it until we get it working properly, and then we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

LIQUOR LICENSING

Mr Joseph Cordiano (Lawrence): My question is for the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. After-hours clubs have become more and more of a problem in our neighbourhoods. The recent fatal shooting which occurred outside of Tae's Restaurant and Nite Club took place in my constituency. Tae's is located right in the middle of a residential neighbourhood, a neighbourhood with young children, a neighbourhood where people used to feel safe, but not any longer.

With the recent fatal shooting, it becomes even more clear that we cannot allow the safety of our residents to be compromised. We must remove after-hours clubs literally from their backyards.

This morning, North York city council passed a unanimous motion calling on the Liquor Licence Board of Ontario to revoke the liquor licence of Tae's Restaurant. Minister, what do you intend to do with North York's request?

Hon Marilyn Churley (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations): I think I should reiterate what the Premier said yesterday. I'm not sure if you were in the House or not to hear that the Solicitor General will have the lead in this area, but certainly I, as minister responsible for the LLBO, will be involved in looking at the whole area of the problems around after-hours clubs.

In terms of the specific incident you mentioned, I understand that there is a process in place right now, and I can't quite recall what it is in terms of that club, but I believe that there is going to be a hearing.

The LLBO has legal jurisdiction over the status of a liquor sale licence or a special-occasion permit under the Liquor Licence Act and regulation, and this one does fall into that. When there are specific problems around safety or specific problems around contravention of the act, then what the liquor board does is suspend that licence and demand that there be a hearing held as to whether or not that particular club should in fact get its licence renewed.

Mr Cordiano: The day following the shooting, I wrote to you asking for your ministry to review the liquor licence granted to Tae's International. In case you're not aware, Tae's Restaurant and Nite Club is reported by the police to have been the site of 21 offences involving the illegal service of alcohol, weapons, drugs and homicides since 1990. How much longer must the residents in my community wait till some action is taken which will enable municipalities and the police to deal with the problem?

I understand the Solicitor General will take a leadership role, but will you assist the other minister, your colleague at the cabinet table, and encourage the Premier to bring forward legislation? It's high time you did something regarding these matters because, as we said yesterday in the House, it's not just a Toronto problem; it's a problem that affects many places around the province. Will you take some leadership in this? Because after all, you are responsible for the Liquor Licence Board of Ontario. Take a stand on this. You are the minister. Do something about it.

Hon Ms Churley: Yes, I will take some responsibility. Further, let me say that I believe the Premier's statement in the House in answer to a question around the broader issue and the private member's bill that's coming forward is a testament to how seriously we all take this issue.

I will be working with the Solicitor General and the LLBO to look at the kinds of problems that have emerged, and you're right, not just in the Metro area. There have been some tragic occurrences, some in licensed establishments that have been illegally serving alcohol after hours and some that quite frankly have not been licensed by the liquor licence board, and that's another issue we have to look at.

There are some complex problems here, there are perhaps some easier problems, but I am committed to work with the Premier, with the Solicitor General, with all levels of government, to see what we all can do within our own jurisdictions to try to find real, workable solutions to some of these problems.

JOB SECURITY

Mr Jim Wilson (Simcoe West): My question is for the Minister of Labour. For the past eight months, my colleagues Al McLean and Bill Murdoch and I and others have urged your government to amend its Bill 40 labour laws to allow private investors to purchase rail lines that CN has publicly said it wants to abandon.

In Simcoe county, the Midland to Orillia, Bradford to Washago and Collingwood to Barrie rail lines are featured prominently on CN's list of abandonments. If these lines go, industries and thousands of jobs will follow. In the Collingwood area alone, 2,000 jobs will be affected. To date, all the Premier has done is provide hollow reassurances that your government is working on this issue. Last March, I provided you with a solution to this matter in the form of my private member's bill which would amend your job-killing Bill 40 labour legislation.

Minister, since your government voted against my private member's bill and since eight months have passed and we've seen no action, what immediate solution do you have to offer to save these jobs in Simcoe county?

Hon Shirley Coppen (Minister of Labour): Mr Speaker, through you to the member, I hope he can appreciate that I am just being briefed, but that does not stop me from wanting to help the member. I am working with the Minister of Economic Development and Trade on the problem that he has brought to my attention about the short railways.

But you started your question to me about Bill 40. I am very pleased to tell all of the members in the House how well Bill 40 is working in this province. We will not be making amendments to Bill 40 because it has proven that it is stopping the adversary system that we have had in this province. We have to bring working people together with the business community.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Order.

Hon Mrs Coppen: Again, addressing your concern about the short railway, I would be very pleased to get back to the member with additional information as soon as possible. I will be discussing this concern with the minister in the next couple of days.

Mr Ted Arnott (Wellington): By way of follow-up, I want to inform the House and the new Minister of Labour how Bill 40 has destroyed jobs in Wellington county and in our neighbouring counties of Bruce and Perth.

A company called Canadian Agra Corp located in Kincardine in 1992 initiated plans to buy the rail corridor from Stratford to Harriston and from Harriston north to the Bruce Energy Centre in Tiverton. This plan would have ensured continued rail service in our area, which is important in attracting new industry generally, would have created 200 construction jobs to re-establish the rail links and would have created six to 10 permanent maintenance jobs at no cost to the taxpayer. This is a tangible example of jobs that have been lost because of Bill 40.

The company's plans to invest $80 million in a new canola-crushing plant creating 40 new jobs are now in jeopardy because of Bill 40. Minister, we need those jobs in our area. We need the rail service to attract new industry and our farmers need the canola-crushing plant.

My question is this: Will the minister agree that unemployment is too high in Ontario and that the government's job is to create a climate to encourage private sector job creation, and will the minister recognize the economic folly of Bill 40, which is killing jobs, and announce its repeal today?

Hon Mrs Coppen: Mr Speaker, the short answer to all of the questions is no.

Mr Jim Wilson: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I wish to serve notice that the member for Wellington and I are not at all happy with that response from the Minister of Labour and will be filing the necessary papers to ask the minister to appear in the late show.

The Speaker: The member does not have a point of order.

COMMUNITY ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

Ms Christel Haeck (St Catharines-Brock): My question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Minister, many here in this House will remember and know, some of us from personal experience, that the Niagara region has been particularly hard hit economically. A number of us have been very active in our use of the Jobs Ontario Community Action program, and I know that it's having some very positive impacts in our communities.

As part of that overall program, last June you made an announcement at a conference in Thorold relating to community loan funds, and I understand that there are new developments with regard to community investment share corporations.

Minister, can you explain to my constituents and people within the chamber of commerce, whom I have met with, to our loyal opposition, the status of these programs?

Hon Ed Philip (Minister of Municipal Affairs): I thank the member for the question. For the record, I'm proud to say that our government has moved in the direction that the people of Ontario have been demanding for many years, that community investment share corporations, community loan funds are part of our government's new and exciting community economic development initiatives. We've recognized that access to traditional sources of capital is a major obstacle to community development, and these investment funds provide investment for local businesses and local projects.

I was in the Niagara and Fort Erie area yesterday. They are disgusted with the fact that previous governments didn't get hydro rates under control and they're very excited that we are doing something, not only in controlling hydro rates for the first time but also in having community economic development in the area.

Ms Haeck: I know that the minister has hit upon some important points. The small business people in my riding have in fact --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Order.

Ms Haeck: Excuse me. Maybe your small business people don't come into your office and ask you --

The Speaker: Would the member place a question.

Ms Haeck: -- the problem with the base, but they surely come to see me. Very clearly the economic development in our communities is very crucial to us all. I will make that assumption, that the opposition in fact agrees with that.

The Speaker: Would the member place a question, please.

Ms Haeck: The local initiative rewards our communities with healthier and more stable economic futures. This will be a positive return. This will have a positive return for our society in the long run. Mr Minister, can you give the residents of my community and others across the province examples of how these financing initiatives are beginning to help our communities?

Hon Mr Philip: I'd be pleased to. I know the member for St Catharines would have asked the question if his party had given him an opportunity, because I'm sure that he's very supportive of the work we are doing in the Niagara area and St Catharines area. But I'm pleased to give examples of what our government is doing.

Since we introduced this exciting new investment program in February of this year, 11 communities have received approval in principle for community loan funds ranging from $100,000 to $1 million, for a total provincial allocation of over $3 million. In addition, as of October a total of nine proposals were given approval in principle to the community investment share corporation funds, for a total approval allocation of over $4 million.

The Speaker: Would the minister conclude his response, please.

Hon Mr Philip: Our government's initiatives believe that communities can help themselves with the backing of the government. We're giving the backing to those communities.

The Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. Motions? Petitions? The honourable member for Quinte.

Mr Michael A. Brown (Algoma-Manitoulin): On a point of privilege, Mr Speaker: I believe my rights as a member of the Legislature and the rights of the people of Manitoulin have been seriously compromised by a government action last week.

Last week the NDP government presented a promotional film to a group of business people to be used to promote investment in Ontario. During the course of this film an astounding revelation took place. The film showed a map of Ontario on a number of occasions. The film, which was vetted by senior ministry people, showed important areas of the province as being ceded to the United States of America, more particularly to the state of Michigan. All of Manitoulin Island was given to the state of Michigan.

Mr Speaker, I live on Manitoulin Island. I am therefore concerned that I am no longer able to represent the people of Manitoulin in this chamber, as you recognize there is a requirement that a member of this Legislature lives in the province of Ontario.

The Speaker: The member for Algoma-Manitoulin will know he does not have a point of privilege. I appreciate the concerns which he has brought to my attention. It does sound as if he has excellent material for tomorrow's question period.

Petitions continue with the member for Quinte.

Interjection.

The Speaker: Sorry. The member for Mississauga South had given me notice earlier that she intended to raise a point of privilege, and indeed I will hear that now.

MEMBER'S PRIVILEGE

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): Mr Speaker, I believe that my member's privileges were breached on August 16, 1994, when certain members of the Legislative Assembly committee leaked to the media the findings of a draft report by the committee's legal counsel, Eleanore Cronk, with respect to whether the Minister of Housing, Evelyn Gigantes, breached conflict-of-interest guidelines for cabinet ministers when she attended a meeting of the Van Lang Centre's board of directors on June 17, 1994.

The members of the Legislative Assembly committee agreed that counsel's report would remain confidential until we had approved the final version of the report, which would be made public at 12 noon on Friday, August 19, 1994. However, some members of the committee broke their oath of confidentiality. Press reports on counsel's findings appeared on the morning of Wednesday, August 17, 1994, following the committee's meeting on the evening of Tuesday, August 16, 1994.

I would appreciate it if you could consider this breach of my privileges and report your findings to me and to the House.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Order. The member for Mississauga South has indeed raised a very serious point of privilege. She quite properly served notice to the Chair, which I appreciate very much. I take the matter that you have raised very seriously. I will endeavour to reply as quickly as possible. It's my intention indeed to be able to report back to the House tomorrow.

CORRECTION

Mr Ted Arnott (Wellington): I just want to indicate with respect to a statement I made yesterday regarding the need for improvements to Highway 6, that highway being our access to Highway 401: I had intended to say Highway 401. Hansard has recorded my statement as Highway 1, and I just want to correct the record in that respect. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): The member indeed has a valid point of order and indeed it's appropriate for a member to correct his own record.

Additional points of order? The member for Quinte, once again.

PETITIONS

FIREARMS SAFETY

Mr Hugh O'Neil (Quinte): I have a petition that has been forwarded to me by the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters, and this petition is signed by many people in the Quinte area. It reads:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas we want you to know that we are strenuously objecting to your decision on the firearms acquisition certificate course and examination; and

"Whereas you should have followed the OFAH advice and grandfathered those of us who have already taken safety courses and/or hunted for years -- we are not unsafe and we are not criminals; and

"Whereas we should not have to take the time or pay the cost of another course or examination and we should not have to learn about classes of firearms that we have no desire to own;

"I/We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"Change your plans, grandfather responsible firearms owners and hunters and only require future first-time gun purchasers to take the new federal firearms safety course or examination."

Mr Speaker, I submit this petition to the House.

CLOSURE OF JAIL

Mr Leo Jordan (Lanark-Renfrew): Before the Solicitor General leaves, I would like to present this petition with over 2,000 names. It reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"We, the undersigned, beg leave to petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereby the Ministry of Solicitor General and corrections has made the decision to close the Perth Jail permanently effective October 4; and

"Whereas the closing of the Perth Jail will place an unfair burden on the taxpayers of Lanark county; and

"Whereas this closure is another example of the province of Ontario unfairly downloading its responsibilities on municipalities; and

"Whereas the safety of the community is at risk because of police departments having to transport offenders to Brockville and Ottawa;

"We, the undersigned residents of our community, call on the government of Ontario to rescind the closure of the Perth Jail."

I hope, Mr Minister, that you realize the number of people who are still active and very upset over this decision.

The Acting Speaker (Ms Margaret H. Harrington): The member for Durham East. The member for Durham East.

WHITBY GENERAL HOSPITAL

Mr Gordon Mills (Durham East): My apologies, Madam Speaker. You were looking at the member for Durham Centre when you said Durham East.

Anyway, Madam Speaker, I have a petition signed by about 5,200 people, many of whom are constituents in my riding of Durham East, which includes the northern portion of the town of Whitby, including the villages of Brooklin, Ashburn and Myrtle Station. The petition reads:

"We, the undersigned, petition the government of Ontario to maintain the Whitby General Hospital as an active treatment, full-service health care facility."

I've put my signature to this.

MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Parkdale): I have a petition that has been forwarded to me by many residents from Fort York and from Parkdale and it reads:

"Whereas the NDP government is hell-bent on establishing a 20-bed forensic facility for the criminally insane at the Queen Street Mental Health Centre; and

"Whereas the nearby community is already home to the highest number of ex-psychiatric patients and social service organizations in hundreds of licensed and unlicensed rooming houses, group homes and crisis care facilities in all of Canada; and

"Whereas there are other neighbourhoods where the criminally insane could be assessed and treated; and

"Whereas no one was consulted -- not the local residents and business community; not leaders of community organizations; not education and child care providers; and not even the NDP member of the provincial riding of Fort York;

"We, the undersigned residents and business owners of our community, urge the government of Ontario to immediately stop all plans to accommodate the criminally insane in an expanded Queen Street Mental Health Centre until a public consultation process is completed."

I've affixed my signature on the bottom of this petition.

HEALTH INSURANCE

Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the provincial government has recently slashed health coverage by 75% for Ontario citizens who are hospitalized out of the country;

"Whereas this reduction in coverage will affect all Ontarians but will have the greatest impact upon seniors, many of whom travel south of the border for important health reasons and who will be forced to absorb a tremendous hike in their health insurance premiums;

"Whereas the government has justified its decision on the basis of not wanting to pay exorbitant hospital costs, even though currently out-of-country hospital coverage is based solely on the rates charged by Ontario hospitals;

"Whereas the reduction in out-of-country hospitalization coverage below the rates charged by Ontario hospitals represents an indisputable violation of sections 7 and 11 of the Canada Health Act;

"Whereas the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party makes the preservation of medicare a priority in its Common Sense Revolution policy document;

"Therefore, we petition the government of Ontario to act in a fair and just manner by preserving the sacred principles of medicare and immediately restore out-of-country hospitalization coverage to the rates charged by hospitals in Ontario."

That's signed by 183 names from Orillia, Penetanguishene, Barrie, Southampton, Elmvale, Perth, even Kitchener and Burlington, and I have affixed my name to it.

WHITBY GENERAL HOSPITAL

Mr Drummond White (Durham Centre): I have here some 25,000 petitions from people in Whitby, Oshawa, primarily from the town of Whitby, and it reads:

"Whereas Whitby General Hospital was built by the citizens of Whitby 25 years ago;

"Whereas the population of the town of Whitby has tripled since then and is the second-fastest-growing community in the region of Durham with a projected population of over 100,000; and

"Whereas equal access to health care is one of the basic principles of our national health care system;

"Whereas the Whitby General Hospital's closure would be counter to these basic health care principles, thereby making health care less accessible to Whitby residents;

"Therefore," the 30,000 people who have signed this petition are making a clear message of their desire to "petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to maintain the Whitby General Hospital as an active treatment, full-service health care facility."

Madam Speaker, in the members' gallery are a number of people from our community who have worked very hard to acquire this petition and these 30,000 signatures, and I affix my name thereto.

GASOLINE PRICES

Mr Frank Miclash (Kenora): I have a petition signed by a number of my constituents from the Kenora riding, including Kenora, Sioux Lookout, Cochenour, McKenzie Island, Balmertown and Redditt. The petition reads, as a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, of course:

"Whereas the difference in gasoline prices between northern and southern Ontario has long represented a serious inequity between the two regions; and

"Whereas the difference in gasoline prices between northern and southern Ontario is often between 10 and 20 cents a litre; and

"Whereas residents of most northern Ontario communities have no access to public transportation options and are therefore dependent on private automobiles; and

"Whereas 1990 NDP election promises to 'equalize' the price of gasoline across the province of Ontario have not been kept; and

"Whereas Kenora Liberal MPP Frank Miclash has called upon the NDP government to keep their 1990 election promises; and

"Whereas the elimination of motor vehicle registration fees for northern Ontario residents does not compensate for the high price of gas in the north;

"We, the undersigned, hereby petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the NDP government of Ontario fulfil its election promises to the people of northern Ontario by equalizing the price of gas across the province of Ontario."

Again, that is signed by a good number of constituents from the riding of Kenora.

PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE PARTY PLAN

Mr Gary Carr (Oakville South): I have a petition by hundreds of residents of my riding which says:

"Whereas we are convinced that a 30% cut in personal income taxes, a 20% cut in non-priority government spending and a balanced budget in four years will help create thousands of jobs in Ontario; and

"Whereas the Ontario government isn't working, we need a major change in direction in Ontario;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to support Mike Harris and his plan to return commonsense government here in the province of Ontario."

I will be signing that petition as well.

EDUCATION FINANCING

Mr Robert Frankford (Scarborough East): I'm presenting a petition on behalf of David Warner, the Speaker of the House. It was put together by Mrs Cathleen Hughes, president of the St Richard school association in his riding:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the British North America Act of 1867 supports the right of Catholic students to a Catholic education, and the province of Ontario supports two educational systems from kindergarten to grade 12/OAC; and

"Whereas the Metropolitan Separate School Board educates more than 103,000 students across Metropolitan Toronto; and

"Whereas this is equivalent to 30% of all the students in this area; and

"Whereas the Metropolitan Separate School Board is expected to provide the same programs and services as its public school counterpart and must do so by receiving $1,822 less for each elementary school student and $2,542 less per secondary school student, based on 1993 estimates;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to act now to ensure that Ontario's two principal education systems are funded fully and equally."

LONG-TERM CARE REFORM

Mr Ron Eddy (Brant-Haldimand): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Ontario government has given second reading to Bill 173,

An Act respecting Long-Term Care, and clause-by-clause consideration of the bill;

"Whereas seniors and the disabled are entitled to accessible community-based care;

"Whereas we do not believe that Bill 173 will provide more cost-efficient and accessible care;

"Whereas we, the undersigned, believe the government of Ontario must recognize and value the work of volunteers in this province;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to ensure that amendments are made to Bill 173 to allow for provision of community care based on the needs of the local communities in Ontario and acknowledge the role of volunteers in the delivery of care."

It's signed by a number of petitioners and I affix my signature.

FIREARMS SAFETY

Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas we want you to know that we are strenuously objecting to your decision on the firearms acquisition certificate course and examination; and

"Whereas you should have followed the OFAH advice and grandfathered those of us who have already taken safety courses and/or hunted for years -- we are not unsafe and we are not criminals; and

"Whereas we should not have to take the time or pay the costs of another course or examination and we should not have to learn about classes of firearms that we have no desire to use;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"Change your plans, grandfather responsible firearms owners and hunters and only require future first-time gun purchasers to take the new federal firearms safety course or examination."

That's signed by 124 people from Orillia, Coldwater, Sutton, Beaverton, Elmvale, Bracebridge and Meaford, and I'll sign my name to it.

ANIMALS FOR RESEARCH

Mr Donald Abel (Wentworth North): I have a petition addressed to the Parliament of Ontario. It reads:

"Whereas every year in North America animals are used in cruel, outdated tests for cosmetics and household products;

"Whereas these tests are not required by provincial or federal law;

"Whereas many non-animal alternative tests are available and are already in use by many companies;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Parliament of Ontario to pass into law a bill which prohibits the use of animals in cosmetic and household product testing."

I attach my name as well.

VIOLENCE

Mr John C. Cleary (Cornwall): I have a petition to the Parliament of Ontario:

"Whereas the problem of interpersonal violence is becoming all too frequent as part of day-to-day living; and

"Whereas this violence is particularly evident on television in the guise of entertainment; and

"Whereas violence against women and children is evident in pornographic videos and video games, magazines and other media; and

"Whereas violence between children in schools appears to be increasing; and

"Whereas random murders and assaults, particularly by young offenders, are highly distressing; and

"Whereas senior citizens and others do not feel safe in their own homes; and

"Whereas a sense of helplessness comes over" the "ordinary citizen and concerned Christians as we watch the deterioration of our society to the plague of violence;

"We, the undersigned, members and friends of St John's Presbyterian Church, Cornwall, Ontario, petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows: We urge the Parliament of Ontario to take an unequivocal stance against violence in every form and that it publicly and clearly state such a stance; and that" it "begin and/or continue to draft legislation that would address violence in the above contexts."

That's signed by 128 of my constituents and I've also signed the petition.

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

The Acting Speaker (Ms Margaret H. Harrington): The time for petitions has expired. I wish to inform the House that pursuant to standing order 34(a), the member for Simcoe West has given notice of his dissatisfaction with the answer to his question given by the Minister of Labour concerning Bill 40 and its impact on rail line acquisition. This matter will be debated today at 6 pm.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

DURHAM REGIONAL POLICE ASSOCIATION INC. ACT, 1994

Mr O'Connor moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill Pr135,

An Act to revive Durham Regional Police Association Inc.

The Acting Speaker (Ms Margaret H. Harrington): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

MONPRE IRON MINES LIMITED ACT, 1994

Mr Murphy moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill Pr118,

An Act to revive Montpre Iron Mines Limited.

The Acting Speaker (Ms Margaret H. Harrington): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

BEREAN BAPTIST CHURCH OF COLLINGWOOD ACT, 1994

Mr Jim Wilson moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill Pr138,

An Act to revive Berean Baptist Church of Collingwood.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): There should be

an act to revive the government.

Mr Jim Wilson (Simcoe West): No, there's no reviving the government.

The Acting Speaker (Ms Margaret H. Harrington): Is it the pleasure of the House that this motion carry? Carried.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT (GOVERNMENT MANAGEMENT AND SERVICES), 1994 / LOI DE 1994 MODIFIANT DES LOIS EN CE QUI A TRAIT AUX PRATIQUES DE GESTION ET AUX SERVICES DU GOUVERNEMENT

Resuming the adjourned debate on the motion for second reading of Bill 175,

An Act to amend the Statutes of Ontario with respect to the provision of services to the public, the administration of government programs and the management of government resources / Projet de loi 175, Loi modifiant les Lois de l'Ontario en ce qui a trait à la fourniture de services au public, à l'administration des programmes gouvernementaux et à la gestion des ressources gouvernementales.

The Acting Speaker (Ms Margaret H. Harrington): We will continue with the debate from yesterday, and the member who had the floor at adjournment was the member for Oriole.

Mrs Elinor Caplan (Oriole): I'm continuing debate on Bill 175, which is entitled

An Act to amend the Statutes of Ontario with respect to the provision of services to the public, the administration of government programs and the management of government resources.

This bill has been categorized by the NDP government as a bill which is about the efficiency of government, and on numerous occasions in briefing notes and in discussions with members of the official opposition and our staff, the government has said that this bill is not controversial, that it is making changes which are considered housekeeping, minor changes and many of them it has said are long overdue. We heard that yesterday, when the minister who has responsibility for carriage of the legislation --

Mr Charles Harnick (Willowdale): On a point of order, Madam Speaker: There is not a quorum present in the Legislature this afternoon.

The Acting Speaker: Would the clerk please determine if a quorum is present.

Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees (Ms Deborah Deller): A quorum is not present, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker ordered the bells rung.

Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees: A quorum is now present, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker: We may resume our debate on Bill 175.

Mrs Caplan: I'm pleased that there is now a quorum present. As I was saying, Bill 175 is an omnibus piece of legislation. The Minister of the Attorney General said yesterday that Bill 175 makes non-controversial changes. We know that there's a total of about 110 different proposals and 14 ministries and that well over 100 statutes are amended by this very thick and quite complex document.

I stated yesterday in my remarks that since the minister and the government have said that this piece of legislation is non-controversial, intended to make housekeeping changes, and since it really is a precedent in this House to have such a broad-sweeping piece of legislation that covers so many statutes and so many ministries and so many policies, we wanted assurance from the government that if there was anything controversial in the legislation, it would commit to remove it from the legislation.

My caucus has identified an issue which we believe is highly controversial and we have requested the government House leader, the minister responsible for this bill -- the Attorney General -- and the government to make the commitment that they will withdraw the sections as they relate to the Advocacy Commission from the legislation, as these amendments to the Advocacy Act are clearly highly controversial.

I have not yet heard from the government House leader a response from the government, nor have I heard from the Attorney General. As I await their reply, I'd like to make the case of why these amendments to the Advocacy Act are controversial and why we are requesting the government to remove them from the statute.

The amendment gives the Advocacy Commission powers so that it can conduct matters of administration, hiring people, so on and so forth. It also designates the Advocacy Commission as a

schedule 3 agency quite removed from control and accountability of the government.

We do not support the Advocacy Act in its present form. The Liberal caucus and our leader, Lyn McLeod, have been very clear. We did not support the act when it was here in the House. We voted against the act.

We have said that should we have the opportunity at some point in the future, we would make sure that the Advocacy Commission as it has been put into place by the New Democratic government would in fact be scrapped, that those sections of the Advocacy Act would be repealed. Those changes are extremely important because we consider the Advocacy Commission as it has been formulated by the NDP government to be unworkable.

Given that very clear position by our party, we believe that it would be inconsistent and, more than inconsistent, would put in place the kinds of powers to bring a commission that we do not support into being in the province. Therefore, not only is it inconsistent but it is something that we just simply cannot support. Our contention is that this debate and discussion should not be part of Bill 175.

The minister, as I said, assured us that there was broad support for all of the recommendations and amendments contained in Bill 175. In fact, we know that there are many who have concerns about how the Advocacy Commission is being structured, how the appointment process is working, how people are being appointed to that commission, which makes the issue of accountability very important. Commitments were made by the government to many of those who are interested in how the Advocacy Commission would function, and they are feeling betrayed and upset.

I'd like to place in the record what some of the interests have to say about the Advocacy Commission as it has been put forward by the NDP, so that the government will know that the amendments that are in Bill 175 are controversial and that we will not tolerate having those amendments put through in a housekeeping bill that is said to be non-controversial.

On October 24 this open letter to the Premier was tabled at a press conference. I'd like to share with the House what the Ontario Advocacy Coalition wrote in its letter to the Premier. They say:

"Dear Mr Rae:

"We received your letter dated October 14, 1994, as well as an undated letter from the Minister of Citizenship faxed to me on October 18, 1994, concerning the government's decision to appoint the Ad Hoc Coalition's four nominees to the Advocacy Commission. The letter from the minister that you asked her to write did not address our concerns. We are therefore writing to request that you personally address our concerns.

Specifically, we want to know why the Minister of Citizenship succumbed to pressure from a powerful lobby group, namely the Ad Hoc Coalition, while at the same time failing to meet her legal obligations under the Advocacy Act as well as her own and the government's commitments made in 1992 to this coalition and the more than 600,000 vulnerable people in Ontario.

"Perhaps it will help you to understand the outrage of this coalition and our sense of betrayal by the minister if we review the events leading up to this point.

"In 1991 you lived up to your election commitment and introduced the Advocacy Act, the Substitute Decisions Act and the Consent to Treatment Act. At that time it was recognized that there would be opposition to this legislation from service providers who felt threatened by the thought that the system in which they spoke for vulnerable people would disappear. Our coalition worked long and hard between 1990 and 1992 to support your legislative initiatives and to do everything we could to ensure that the legislation truly met the principles it was designed to reflect.

We were confident, based on the many statements that were made by you and members of your government that you fully supported an advocacy system that was intended to empower vulnerable people and give them a voice to counter the strong lobbying organizations such as the Ontario Medical Association, the Ontario Hospital Association and the Ontario Nursing Home Association.

"The Ad Hoc Coalition was pulled together in 1991 by then NDP Treasurer Brian Harling who worked for the Ontario Medical Association at the time. In addition to the OMA, the coalition consisted of the Ontario Nursing Home Association, the Ontario Hospital Association, as well as several other organizations providing services to seniors and persons with disabilities."

Mr Harnick: On a point of order, Madam Speaker: There are again only nine people in the Legislature. I would ask that we check and see if a quorum is present.

The Acting Speaker: Would the clerk please determine if a quorum is present.

Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees: A quorum is not present, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker ordered the bells rung.

Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees: A quorum is now present, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker: We will resume our debate. The member for Oriole.

Mrs Caplan: Time does not permit me to read the entire letter that was tabled at the press conference; however, the bottom line in this letter, which is signed by Ralph Evans and Mae Harman, who are co-chairs of the Ontario Advocacy Coalition, says: "We look forward to your response" -- and they're referring to the Premier -- "to our request for your direct intervention. Being referred to a minister who has lost our confidence would only confirm you have not heard us. On behalf of the vulnerable people across Ontario, please act."

This letter confirms that there are many who feel they have been betrayed by the government in the way it has gone about implementing the Advocacy Commission.

Similarly, there are grave concerns that the Psychiatric Patient Advocate Office, with which I'm extremely familiar, is going to result in less service to those people who presently count on the PPAO for the support they need. As I understand it, it is the intention of the government, upon proclamation, to have all the services presently provided by the PPAO become part of the Advocacy Commission, notwithstanding the fact that the Advocacy Act limits service under that act to people over the age of 16, and that the Psychiatric Patient Advocate Office today is presently serving people under the age of 16.

Therefore, those vulnerable people under the age of 16 who are presently receiving support and service from the PPAO will be left without anyone to support them and give them the advocacy needs as they require them.

Second, it would seem to me logical to have a kind of transition, to take a look at the establishment of an advocacy office and an Advocacy Commission rather than having the kind of proclamation in January that I believe will lead to chaos. It seems to me that there are enough concerns. I also have a letter that was written as of October 20 by the acting director of the Psychiatric Patient Advocate Office that clearly asks the government to slow its proclamation. The letter says:

"The Psychiatric Patient Advocate Office is a quasi-independent program of the Ministry of Health. For the last 11 years we have worked for the rights of inpatients in Ontario's 10 provincial psychiatric hospitals. Most of our clients have serious mental illnesses, and have" a history of being "underserved by the mental health system.

"The chair" -- of the Ontario Advocacy Commission -- "David Reville and members of the Ontario Advocacy Commission have just been appointed. Between now and mid-January (about 60 working days) the commission is scheduled to begin providing advocacy and rights advice services across Ontario to people with disabilities. The government had made a decision to transfer the PPAO to the commission, without taking into account the views of the program, our clients, or the new commission.

"Few benefits to the clients of the PPAO resulting from such a transfer have been identified, and many risks. For example, PPAO advocates are salaried specialists onsite in the 10 hospitals, with a fast response time. Under the commission, our clients could be served by a volunteer generalist advocate who lives in the next town and can't respond to a call from a client for several days.

"If the transfer occurs, the commission's first 'accomplishments' could include the immediate reduction of advocacy services to the people in provincial psychiatric hospitals" --

Mr Harnick: On a point of order, Madam Speaker: We again don't appear to have a quorum. After being away from here for four and a half months, I would think the government members would be delighted to be back and in their seats to proceed with their legislative agenda.

The Acting Speaker: Would the clerk please determine if a quorum is present.

Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees: A quorum is not present, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker ordered the bells rung.

Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees: A quorum is present, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker: We shall resume.

Mrs Caplan: Just to complete this last paragraph, it says, "the commission's first 'accomplishments' could include the immediate reduction o