Manitoba Hansard — 9 December 1994 (Sitting 7, 35th Legislature, 6th Session)

35-6-7

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Sixth Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VoL XLIV No.7 • 10 a.m., Friday, December 9, 1994 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members. Constituencies and PoUtical AtJ'diation Nlm ~amtuena ASHTON, Steve Thompson BARRE'IT, Becky Wellington CERILLI, Marianne Radisson CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste.Rosc DACQUAY, Louise Seine River DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin- Russell DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk DOER, Gary Concordia DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur- Virden DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. Riel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Hury, Hon. Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Clarleswood EVANS, Clif Interlake EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East Fll...MON, Gary, Hon.

Tuxedo FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield FRIESEN, Jean Wolsclcy GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Gn.LESHAMMER., Harold, Hon. Minncdosa GRAY, Avis Crcsccntwood HEL WER, Edward Gim1i IDCKES, George Point Douglas KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns MALOWAY, Jim Blmwood MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Marris MARTINDALE, Doug Bmrows McALPINE, Gctry Sturgeon Creek McCORMICK, Norma Osborne McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East ORCHARD, Donald, Hon.

Pembina PALLISTER, Brian Portage la Prairie PENNER, Jack Emerson PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet REID, Daryl Transcona REIMER. Jack Niakwa RENDER, Shirley St. Vital ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone ROSE, Bob Turtle Mountain SANTOS, Conrad Broadway SCHELLENBERG, Hury Rossmcrc STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kiikfield Parle SVEINSON, Ben La Vcrcndryc VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. FortGury WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River Vacant River Heights Vacant FlinFlon bm NDP NDP NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. Lib. P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. NDP Lib. P.C. Lib. P.C. NDP Lib. Lib.

NDP P.C. NDP NDP P.C. NDP P.C. Lib. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP P.C. NDP P.C. P.C. NDP P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP

295 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, December 9,1994 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Physical Education in Schools Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of J. Cornett, N. Borotsik, Dave Bauman and others urging the Minister responsible for Education (Mr. Manness) to consider reinstating physical education as a compulsory core subject area. Rent Hike Cancellation Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Hauy Cook, Dooald Bmke, Hyke Briggs and others urging the Minister responsible for Housing (Mrs. Mcintosh) to consider cancelling the recent unilateral rent hikes. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Physical Education in Schools Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the hcnourable member (Mr. l..aJmureux). It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Yes? Okay, the Oerk will read. Mr.

Oerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned residents of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: 1HAT in July 1994, the Minister of Education introduced an action plan entitled Renewing Education: New Directions; 1HAT this report will make physical education an optional course in Grades 9 to 12; 1HAT the physical education curriculum should be regularly reviewed to ensure that it meets the needs of students; 1HAT the govenmrnt is fitiling to recognize the benefits of physical education such as improved physical fitness, more active lifestyles, health promotion, self -discipline, skill development, stress reduction. strengthened peer relationships, weight regulation, stronger bones, reduced risk of health diseases and improved self-confidence.

WHEREFORE your petitioners hwnbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the Minister responsible for Education to consider reinstating physical education as a compulsory core subject area. Physical Education in Schools Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Cerilli). It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Yes, you do. Okay, the Oerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the proposed changes to the Manitoba curriculum would have no physical education required for students after Grade 8; and

WHEREAS the social, intellectual, emotional and physical benefits of physical education have been proven through extensive research; and,

WHEREAS requiring physical education for high sd:lool sends a message that physical activity is important for life and encourages high school students to make life choices to stay active and it fits into a preventative health strategy; and,

296 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 9, 1994

WHEREAS many parents, students, medical professionals and educators, health and recreation specialists are mging that physical education be increased in schools. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Education to consider maintaining physical education as part of the core curriculum from kindergarten to senior high. •

(1005) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I have four reports to table: the 1993-94 Annual Report of the Department of Finance; the 1993/94 Annual Report of the Special Operating Agencies Financing Authority; the Report to the Legislative Assembly from the Manitoba Provincial Auditor for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1994, and the Provincial Auditor's Report 1994/95, Volume 1. INTRODUCI'ION OF BD..LS Bill 203-The Lotteries Accountability and Consequential Amendments Act Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the ~mber for the Interlake (Mr.

OifEvans), that leave be given to introduce Bill 203, Tbc Lotteries Accountability and Cmsequential Amendments Act; (Loi concemant l'obligation redditionnelle en mati~ de loteries et apportant des modifications cOI'lilatives) and that the s~ be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Dewar: Mr. Speaker, since 1988, lottery revenues in this province have increased by 1,650 percent Projected revenues for the fiscal year 1994-95 is well over $220 million. This makes the Lotteries Corporation the largest in this province.

Understandably, the public is very concemed about the accountability of this corporation. This bill will address this issue. What this bill proposes is a committee that will be set up, so~thing that this government at this point has refused to do. This bill will examine all aspects of gaming in this province, the social and economic costs, the impact of VLTs and the issue of aboriginal gaming. Tbc committee then will make a recoJTlll'IC"Jldation to the minister responsible for the Lotteries Corporation.

As well, the minister must supply quarterly reports respecting the economic and social costs, the benefits of lotteries in this province. This bill will require that the quarterly reports be made available to the ~bers of this House and the public within 14 days after it has been received by the minister, regardless of whether or not this House is in session, s~thing. Mr. Speaker, that up to this point is currently missing. The public wants s~ clear answers about gaming in this province, and this act will make the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation more open and more accountable to the people of this province.

I mge all ~mbers to support this legislation. Motion agreed to. Bill 206-The Small Business Regulatory Relief Act Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable ~mber for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), that leave be given to introduce Bill 206, Tbc Small Business Regulatory Relief Act (Loi sur l'assouplissement de l'application des ~glements aux petites emreprises) and that the ~ be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, this bill is the identical bill that we introduced last session.

It was introduced by the former ~mber for F1in Pion and follows the comments I made yesterday with a companion bill in terms of the small business regulations and follows from agreements

December 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 297 that were reached by task force in 1986. While there has been some movement finally in terms of this issue in terms of recognizing this from the government side, we still do not have a comprehensive procedure put in place to ensure that many of the regulations that affect small business are reviewed by this Legislature before they are put in place.

I think it is high time, after dealing with this issue since 1986, that we pass this legislation, and I think this kind oflegislation is something we can all agree to in this House, something that will make substantial difference for improving the day to-day worldng climate of small businesses in this province. Motion agreed to. Bill201-The Child and Family Services Amendment Act Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne): I move, seconded by the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray}, that leave be given to introduce Bill 201, The Olild and Family Services Amendment Act; Loi mxlifiant Ia

Loi sur les services ll'enfant et l Ia famille, and that the same now be received and read a first time. Motion presented. Ms. McCormick: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this amendment is to deal with

Section 19 of The Child and Family Services Act to expedite and improve the functioning of the Olild Abuse Registry. To accomplish this I propose two areas of improvement. One is to increase the number of members oo the Olild Abuse Registry from seven to 12. This will assist the committee as it is cmtim•ally and seriously backlogged. This creates difficulty for many of the people who are anticipating the dispositions of the committee. The second aiD"..'ldrmrt would in fact remove the requirement for the victim registry.

With respect to the victim registry, the agency's new management information system now allows for the sharing of relevant information. I commend this bill for consideration of all members of this Ownber. Motion agreed to. •

(1010) Bill 208-The Limitation of Actions Amendment Act Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): I move, secooded by the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), that leave be given to introduce Bill 208, The Limitation of Actions Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia prescription, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, Bill 208 amends The Limitations of Actions Act in order to remove barriers to civil suits by victims of assault which took place in a relatiooship of trust or dependency, such as incidents involving parents, guardians or physicians. In cases of sexual assault, the bill removes all time limits to pmsuing a suit and in other cases of assault, for example, domestic abuse, the limitation period is set at 30 years. This bill is based on legislation currently in place in Ontario.

The Supreme Court of Canada has made specific comments on this Ontario legislation, citing it as an excellent piece of legislation. I would recommend this to the House, Mr. Speaker, particularly in light of the recent number of cases that have come to light where victims of assault and abuse that happened years, and sonr.times decades ago, have come to light as they have grown older and have been able to deal with this. Currently, they cannot take action against the abuser under this piece of legislation, either 30

298 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 9, 1994 ~ later or, in the case of sexual assault, there is no time limit They would be able to take civil action against their abuser. I would highly recommend it to the Legislature. Motion agreed to. Bill213-The Workers Compensation Amendment Act Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), that leave be given to introduce Bill 213, The Workers Compensation .Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les accidents du travail, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Reid: Mr. Speaker, the subject of this bill was first enacted on October 6, 1966. It was further reinforced in 1977 when the Manitoba Workers Compensation Board passed Regulation No. 24-77, which stated: Where a firefighter suflers injmy to his lungs, brain or kidneys, unless the cootnuy is shown. the injury shall be pxesumed to have arisen out of and in the course of his employment as a firefighter, resulting from the inhalation of smoke, gases, fumes or any of them In 1988 Mr.

Justice Sterling Lyon of the Manitoba Court of Appeal struck down the firefighter protection regulation. Since that time there have been no attempts by the WCB or this govemment to inttoduce guidelines that would apply to the claims from firefighters. There is significant evidence that many of the chemical substances to which firefighters may be exposed are carcinogenic to humans and animals. Some of these substances cause cardiovascular, respiratOiy and ccotral nervous system damage.

In addition, carbon monoxide and solvent exposure may worsen the damage to hearing caused by excessive noise exposure for firefighters. This bill, Mr. Speaker, will correct the injustice and restore the protection for those in the municipal firefighting service who put their lives at risk to protect the public lives and property. I ask all mmbers of this House for their support on this important piece oflegislation. Motion agreed to. •

(1015) Bill216-The Public Health Amendment Act Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), that leave be given to introduce Bill 216, The Public Health Amendment Act; Loi mxJifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia sant6 publique, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, this is the third of three bills inttoduced by members on this side of the House in the health care field dealing with improvements in the health care field This is also the third or fourth session where we have introduced these bills, Mr. Speaker. We introduced The Health Reform Accountability Act We introduced The Health Care Records Act, and this is a third, The Public Health Amendment Act. Mr.

Speaker, this bill recognizes the mandatOiy reporting of adverse reaction to vaccinations and calls for information on both the benefits and the risks of vaccinations to be provided. The bill accepts that inmnmization has been a factor leading to ICduction of many diseases but recognizes that evidence exists linking vaccinations with disability and deaths in some healthy infants.

Like the pxevious bills, this bill proposes to C'JlSUie that active involvement of consumers in our health care system will lead to more infmmed consent, decision making and an enhanced quality of care for all in the health care system I acknowledge and look forward to the support

December 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 299 of all members of this House, Mr. Speaker, in debating this bill and passing this bill this session, if possible. Thank you. Motion agreed to. Billl17-The Real Property Amendment Act (

l) Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I move, seconded by the member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg), that leave be given to introduce Bill 217, 1he Real Property Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifWlt la

Loi sur les biens reels, and that the same now be received and read a first time. Motion presented. Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, I have been raising this issue with the government for two years or more, the unfairness of banks being able to pursue a seller of a home under an assumed mortgage where there is an opportunity, if there is a default under that mortgage, for the purchaser to not be on the hook, but the persoo who sold the home is actually pursued up to three years after selling the home, as in the case of one of III¥ constituents who was held liable for more than $23,000. Mr.

Speaker, anyone I have talked to has found this very smprisiog. 'Ihey have been horrified that the banks and financial institutions have this nmch power. Even Conservatives have come up to me and said that they cannot believe that this is the case. We have been imploring the government to bring in legislation to deal with this, and now we know that they have. I would suggest to all members of the House that they would find it in keeping to support this bill.

With the government preparing its own legislation, pelhaps we can agree that we would pass this before we break for Christmas, and, of course, if the members opposite do not have their legislation prepared, then we can always pass the bill that I have put forward. I hope when I receive the bill from the government that it will be quite similar, when it would make sense that we would be able to pass the private members' bill. Motion agreed to. •

(1020) Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us this morning His Excellency Dr. Hans Sulimma, who is the Ambassador of the Federal Republic of Germany to Canada, and Mrs. Suljmma. On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this morning. Also with us this momiog, seated in the public gallery, we have from the Oakdale School twenty five Grades 7 to 12 students under the direction of Ms. Cindy Tinsley.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr Emst). From the Red River Community College, we have 50 joumalism students under the direction of Mr. Donald Benham. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett). Also, from the Teulon Collegiate, we have thirty-five Grade 11 students under the direction of Mr. Al Reinsch. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you all here this morning.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Accountability Legislation Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier. A number of items have been noted in the

300 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 9, 1994 Auditor's Report that have been consistent with the cmcems we have raised in the past: the Winnipeg Jets operating loss agreem:nt signed by the governm:nt; sam: concems on Grow Bonds in terms of the accounting process; the Hazardous Waste Corporation, about which I wrote directly to the Auditor. But an issue that has been a concern to the public and a coocem to m:mbers of the opposition has been the whole issue of accounting in the Lotteries Corporation here in Manitoba. The Auditor raises three legitimate and public cmcems about the accounting procedures.

It talks about the whole weakness in the govet'lliDent's IepOiting of the revenues in Volum: 1, inadequate information to m:mbers of the Legislature and therefore to members of the public. It talks about the tim:liness of reports, and it also raises the issue of the debate that is lacking on the expenditure in Lotteries. I would like to ask the Premier, in light of the fact that the Auditor says that legislation is a requirement to make these changes, is the govemment going to support the NDP Lotteries accountability bill and give the public more information and a greater accountability in terms of this bill?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I note that the member, of comse, misrepresents and distorts, in fact, the information of the Auditor, because at no tim: did the Auditor indicate that she did not have access to all of the information required in order to ensure that every dollar was accounted for and that the revenue that flowed through was, in fact. the money that was allocated for and all of the mmey that did happen in lotteries in this province.

I note that she says, while we agree with the accounting policies used in V olum: 3--and she says that they agree with the accounting policies that were utilized-she does make certain recomn:rndations, reccu .. •a!dations that I am sure that our govemment is prepared to deal with. One of them, of course, has to do with release of the report of the Lotteries Corporation on a more tim:ly basis, say within six months of the corporation's year-end.

The only concern that our people have in looking at it is that we have to wait for the annual report of the Western Canada Lotte:ry Corporation to be incorporated in our ammal ~.and if that can be done, we have no difficulty saying that we are quite prepared to release that information as quickly as it is reasonable to do so. Mr. Doer: Of course, the Auditor's comments deal with information to this Legislature and therefore to the public.

The Auditor says, the lotte:ry revmue reflected in V olum: 1 is incomplete because the total actual lottery revenues are not shown as revenue for the government, a criticism that has been made, Mr. Speaker, by m:mbers on this side, by m:mbers in the public, by municipal officials, by numbers of people, and that does not even include the concerns about how nuch revenue was raised in the comnnmities, which, of comse, m:mbers of the public want to know. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to know whether the government is going to implem:nt legislative dlanges to make it possible for the public to know the actual revenues on a tim:ly basis and for the public to have information about where this revenue is generated by CODDDJilities, so the public can know whether there is more money coming out of the COJlllll!mities than is going back in by the government's spending of those revenues. Mr. FUmon: Mr. Speaker, this is pure politics by the Leader of the Opposition.

I will quote what the Auditor has said: The information on actual lottety revenues provided to the Legislature in MLCs ammal report is reliable, relevant, complete and useful. The infonnatioo that he says is not in Volume 1 is all contained in Volum: 3, Mr. Speaker, and it is there for the use of the public and anybody, including those who want to distort and misrepresent it, like the Leader of the Opposition. •

(1025) December 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 301 Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I regret to say that the only political action we see on behalf of this gove•m• a'' dealing with Lotteries is a pre-election slush fund, a pre-election slush fund in terms of the government of the day. The Auditor raises three criticisms of the existing govemux:nt in the

section dealing with the Auditor's Report on Lotteries, criticisms that deal with the existing accounting procedures. The Auditor goes on further to say that the legislation may have to be changed, Mr. Speaker. The legislation may require revision to fully address the rec()D11'11CI1C"Jations the Auditor makes and, I would argue, to fully address the concerns the public has been raising in conmnmity after community after community.

Will this govemnrnt give us full disclosure and give us full accounting and give us full statements of revenues by c()IDITDmity and a full statement of the revenues when they gain them, Mr. Speaker, on a t:imiy basis, rather than having the criticism that we see in the Auditor's Report that is tabled here in the Legislature today? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, the interesting thing about this is that it was a New Democratic government that started Lotteries in this province in 1970 with the introduction at that time of Lotteries, a New Democratic government that set up the first casino in this province.

It was a New Democratic government that took over the bingos of this province and set up the first two bingo parlours and purchased the land on which the two new entertainment centres were built for that purpose. It was the New Democrat government that set up the Lotteries Corporation and all of the procedures that it currently follows, Mr.

Speaker. .To talk about the politics that he wants to play, this member does not demand that we set out how much we collect in sales tax revenue in each community in Manitoba, how IWch we collect in pers~ income tax revenue in each c()IDITDmity in Manitoba, how IDlch we collect in every other form of revenue. He does not ask for that kind of information. He is doing this for pure politics. Health Care Facilities No Deficit Policy Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr.

Speaker, now in an election year this government has finally realized, pedlaps, that its policy of massive cuts to our health care system and the Americanization of our health care system may not be working. Finally, months before an election, the realization may have come about. My question to the Minister of Health: Will the minister now advise the House today what he could not tell us :yesterday, what he tried to tell the m::dia in several serums yesterday in the hallway? Will he try to explain to the House today what the government's deficit-funding policy is, whom it applies to and for what period of time?

They are now apparently, perhaps, funding some hospital deficits. Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is not going to get away with rewriting the history of this province. I cannot imagine how he can sustain language about massive cuts in the face of $500- million additional spending this year, as opposed t~ the amount of spending in 1988, the year that his colleagues were kicked out of office in Manitoba, $500 million more every year today ~when he and his colleagues were in office just SIX, seven years ago.

That is 34 percent of the total spending of govcrnoalt, so in no way would I ever accept such language and neither will anybody else when they see what is going on in Manitoba in terms of improvements to the health care system •

(1030) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, pelhaps he could explain that to the home care people who have to pay. for their home care equipment, to the hospital patients who cannot get into a hospital, to the emergency rooms that are crowded, to the hundreds of nurses they have laid off, to all the

302 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 9, 1994 people who have to pay. Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the minister who, again, for the ninth time did not answer the question- An Honourable Member: Tenth. Mr. Chomiak: Tenth time. I stand corrected, Mr. Speaker.

For the tenth time did not answer the question, and to a government that has a plan to cut a fmther thousand employees from the health care system, will the minister explain how this policy applies and how it applies to rural facilities, many of whom such as the Parkland region had a million dollars clawed back from their swplus budgets, how it applies to hospitals all across the province? Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Speaker, I will take every opportunity to remind my fellow Manitobans that as we shift towards more emphasis on community care and preventive services, the budget for home care in Manitoba has increased some 93 percent in the past seven years, up around $70 million. I will tell my fellow Manitobans that we have increased, very significantly, spending on support services for seniors in Manitoba to improve their quality of life, to postpone disability and to cut down on illness.

I will be very pleased to talk about the expansion of the personal care home program in this province, very, very significant increases over the past few years, about the increases for dialysis treatment and increases for bone marrow transplants and breast screening for Manitoba women across this province.

I will also tell of the labour adjustment strategy that we have put in place in the health sector whidl did not exist before, which is protected and cushioned for whatever blow there might be with regard to renewal of our health system for the people who have worked so hard and so long in the health system to provide the high quality care that we have in Manitoba today. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, that is 11 times in two days the Minister of Health has refused to answer the question. An Honourable Member: He does not know the answer. Mr. Chomiak: He does not know or he is not saying.

My final supplenrntary to the minister: In light of his mention of their expanded support to c(l011Dmity health centres, will he rescind his September 21 memo to community health centres telling tbcm the no-deficit policy applies and there are no appeals of those deficits? Will he rescind that memo to community health organizations? Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Speaker, any communication like that to community health centres should not come as too nwch of a disappointment since I am advised that ronmmity health centres do not have deficits, so it should not be a problem for them If the hmourable nanber needs clarification, as I said a year ago, when we decided to build a labour adjustment strategy and put a stop to layoffs, that did put some hospitals into a deficit situation which it seems mly natural and fair we would cover, since we are the ones that urged that upon the hospitals.

Otherwise, deficits are not something that hospitals or the government or anybody else wants to put up with in Manitoba, and so we are working very co-operatively and very well with the hospital sector in Manitoba to bring those financial matters under conttol. 1bere has been vety, very significant success when one COJq>ares the number of institutions that have deficits today with the number that existed five or so years ago. Thanks to the good people who operate those facilities throughout our province in their partnership with Manitoba Health, we have come a very long way and made very good progress.

December 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 303 Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Accountability Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. In addition to the Auditor questioning the issue of how lottery monies are raised, as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) has spoken of already, the Auditor also questioned how those monies are spent.

On page 73 of the report, under Lottery Funded Expenditures, the Auditor specifically stated, and I quote: "Our office holds the view that all government expenditure programs should be subject to debate and compete on their relative merit in order to obtain funding. "-and then went on to make a recommendation to enhance that. The COIDillf2lt from the government, the government strongly disagrees.

Why is the government unwilling to respect the advice of the Auditor on the issue of Lottery-Funded Expenditures and have them compete on the floor of this Legislature as a normal part of government expenditures like any other part of government expenditures? Why is the Lotteries Corporation set up as some fiefdom outside of this House? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I know that the member opposite has difficulty reading all of these things and understanding them, but that is precisely what happens, is that this govemm:nt cmsiders every dollar of revenue to be a dollar of revenue to be competed for in the whole Estimates process. We no longer say, as used to be the case under fonDer administmtions, that Lotteries mmey could mly go to certain things. All of the priorities of this government are funded by all of the mmey of this government on a priority basis.

What the Auditor is saying is that we no longer need to show specifically where the Lotteries IDJDey goes any longer. Obviously, that would be cballenged by members opposite because they are constantly saying, tell us where the money goes. That is what the endeavour is within the whole lotteJY system, is to answer the questions of that very member, to say, where does the money go? So that is why it is specifically highlighted as being Lotteries Funded Programs, to answer his questions.

In terms of how we choose our priorities, every dollar that is spent is given the same priority choices as every other dollar that is spent. The priorities of this government go in order, and all we do then is highlight where the IDJDey goes so that a member, like the member for River Heights or sony, St. James-he lives in River Heights-! am sorry, the member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) can have his questions answered. Mr. Edwards: This comes from the Premier of Charleswood, or again for the member for Charleswood-oh. I am sorry, it is the Premier. Mr.

Speaker, I think I will stick with the Auditor on this one, who points out a specific criticism of how this government reports Lottery-Funded Expenditures. Promotional Brochure Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): My further question is for the Premier. I believe that were some of these recommenda tions respected by this government, we would not have seen some of the expenditures that this government has been making in the Lotteries. I have talked earlier about the $1.2 million on the new advertising campaign.

Now the pamphlet -which does not have a word about any of the problems associated with gambling or even the addiction hot line-which was circulated at the UMM convention last week is showing up in people's mailboxes. A hundred and twenty-five thousand of these were printed for government departments. How many more thousands have been printed? How many homes are they going to? What are the aiteria that are being used to determine whom they get sent to through direct mail?

304 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 9, 1994 Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I cannot believe the hypocrisy of this m!mber opposite, because tim! and tim! again, he has gone on radio, on television, in the newspapers and in this House and stood up and said, we do not know where the money is going. As long as he wants to imply that the public is not being told where the mooey is going, we will keep telling the public. That is our mandate, to respond to his nonsense. Mr. Edwards: If the government spent one-tenth as lWCh tim! telling Manitobans where the money com!S from, Mr.

Speaker, as to where it is being spent, it would be a different story. This government never talks about where they get this money and the cost of raising this money. We know, accottling to their own Volberg report, that there are 32,000 Manitobans that are susceptible to gambling addiction. Where is one word in this pamphlet about those problems and about those risks? Where is one word about the hot line set up for people who have problems? Where is any indication that this government understands or has any desire to comnnmicate to the public the risks of how they are raising this $214 million? Mr.

Filmon: You know, like Winnie-the-Pooh, that m!mber may think that there is a honey tree, but Manitobans know when they spend their mmey where their money goes. It is mly he who has the audacity and the hypocrisy to suggest to Manitobans that he does not know where the mooey goes. We have put out the folder to tell people, in answer to his questions and his misleading them •

(1040) Crime Rate Impact of Social Conditions Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice. Manitoba had the worst and, I suggest, the most threatening crime rate in Canada last year. Also in this province, we have suffered the worst poverty rate in Canada, the worst high school dropout rate in Canada, the worst record for number of children in care in Canada, the worst economic growth record in Canada, among the lowest minimum wages in Canada, and heinous cuts to child and family support programs.

Will the minister now admit that these conditions are major factors causing our crime? With this government's policies, does she expect our criJD! rate to worsen? Hon. Rosemary V odrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, our govemnrnt has a very good record in making sure that the lllOOeY that is available goes to the people who need it and goes in the places where it is needed I can tell the member that colleagues on our side of the House, colleagues on the government side, have made sure that mooey has been directed to the important areas.

This government also has takm a very aggressive stand against criJD! within this province, and I would ask members opposite, where do they stand, because they have not stood with Manitobans once. Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr. Speaker, criJD! is getting worse. Given that we have just now confiriDCd what every Winnipegger, I think, senses, that in Winnipeg, not mly is the car theft epidemic continuing and break-and-enters are up 2. 7 percent-that is 11,000 victims-there is a new wave. Robberies are up 26 percent at the end of October.

Would the minister now admit that this government's ID!an-spirited policies, the ID!an spiritedness of this government, is breeding this criJD! while this minister grandstands? Mrs. V odrey: Unbelievable questions from the m!mber opposite. Let IDC ask the member where he stood when we were dealing with the issues of youth criJD! and violence. Let ID! ask where that m!mber stood

December 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 305 when we were trying to make amendments to the Young Offenders Act and encomage the federal govetlllrellt to aack down on youth crime through the Young Offenders AcL Aaoss the way, that member did not stand once with Manitobans. That member has not stood once in assisting or advertising the street peace line, where young people can use a phone line to attempt to get out of gang-related activity. They have in every case DOt assisted Manitobans in the area of our fight against crime. RCMP Understaffmg Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Manitobans are fed up.

Given that outside Winnipeg, crime is also increasing, will the minister now unequivocally admit that she was indeed officially advised of RCMP understaffing in our cormmmities? She fitiled to tell the truth. Will she immediately address the understaffing of 83 positions? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I can tell the member that I have not yet received what was sent out by the division reps to RCMP officers. However, yes, as I have said previously in this House and also in the newspaper

article the member references, I have had ongoing discussion with the RCMP, who are authorized to negotiate on behalf of issues relating to the RCMP. That negotiation is ongoing, began some time ago and continues. We certainly recognize the very important role that the RCMP and other municipal police forces play in fighting crime in this province, and we look to continually ~ operate with those police services. Public Housing Rent Increase Appeal Process Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr.

Speaker, we have been raising numerous times the unfairness of this govemment, along with the federal Liberals, in raising rents in public housing and decreasing support for public housing, increasing rents more than 15 percent in some cases. We would prefer if they would have cancelled this rent hike, because there are some problems and concerns with the proposed appeal process for people that they brought in because of the public outcry.

I want to ask the Minister of Housing, how does this minister plan to determine, as she terms them, hardship cases, when so many tenants who live in public housing are having incomes below the poverty line? How can she assure us that there will be criteria that will be fair? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Housing): First of all, in terms of criteria that are fair, the member might like to take a look at provincial comparisons when she talks about the types of things that are happening in Manitoba.

She should be able also to ascertain that the people in Manitoba are vecy, very well treated vis-l-vis the rest of Canada.

For e.xatq)le, when she talks about our rent hike, the rent hike being moved from 26 percent of incolre to 27 percent of income for the majority of renters, but not all, because there are still many who remain at 25 pem:nt, she is not telling people that in British Columbia, New Bnmswick and Ontario, they were at 30 percent, that Alberta is moving to 30 percent in 1995, Nova Scotia is moving to 30 percent, Prince Edward Island is going to 30 percent in 1995, and Manitoba has remained at 27 peratt, despite the fact that we are one of the vecy few, in fact, one of only two provinces that give property tax credits to renters in public housing even though they do not pay the full propertytaxaedit.

We do now include that as income because it is income, but they still receive that credit that other provinces do not receive. In tc:nns of fairness, Mr. Speaker, I believe that we are eminently fair compared to the rest of the countcy. In terms of the appeal process, the tenants who have indicated that they had already made other

306 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 9, 1994 budgetary considerations for their income and now are experiencing some financial hardship because their mmey is being allocated elsewhere, those will be seriously looked at and considered with a compassionate view to making swe no one is disadvantaged. Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister was, what are the requirements for a successful appeal to the rent increases in Manitoba, and when will tenants in Manitoba be apprised of this appeal process? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Speaker, the tenants are in the process of being notified now.

Some of the tenants may have already ~ceived their notifications. Those who have written to me are getting letters from me indicating the appeal process is now in place. Managers of buildings are being notified of the appeal process and what steps the tenants who approach them might be able to take. The day before yesterday, I signed a letter to the member herself indicating the appeal process in place. Sbe may not have received it yet because it takes a couple of days to go through the mail. Criteria are being set out by the tenant commmity relations committee of the Manitoba Housing Authority.

They will certainly take a look at people who have the mininuun benefits in terms of the old age pension and the supplement and make swe they are not disadvantaged by virtue of the rent that they pay. Ms. Cerilli: Why did the minister not make this option for appeal known to tenants in public housing when she announced the increase? Why is it ooly after they have paid their increase, after public outay, that she has had to put forward this appeal process? Mrs. Mcintosh: As the member knows full well this change was announced a year ago. ~ process bas been in place since May of 1994.

People have been paying these increases since that time, in terms of the property tax credit being calculated as income. We heard no objections, none at all until a few months ago when the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) went to a building in Brandon and solicited comments from the tenants in that building. Point of Order Ms. Cerilli: On a point of order, I would just like to clarify for the record that- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. 1he honourable member clearly in her remarks does not have a point of order. ••• Mrs.

Mcintosh: In response to the concern that was raised several months after the program had been put in place by the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leona.td Evans), we did respond. We took a look at the complaints that he had brought forward, concems from tenants in his building and delved into the issue and decided that pedlaps an appeal process would be good for those who had already made budgetary decisions with their income for the year and help them through this transitory period. •

(1050) Sugar Industry Export Restrictions Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, it has come to my attention that the United States government is intending to limit the imports of sugar very severely from Canada over the next lJUIDber of)t:US. The Canadian sugar industry has exported into the United States roughly about 180,000 tons of sugar annually over the last number of years, and similar amounts of sugar come into Canada. The restrictions that are being imposed now are going to limit the exports to 22,000 tons which will put a severe difficulty on the ability of the sugar industry to survive in Manitoba, which could cost a huge number of jobs. It is my infonnation

December 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 307 that the Liberal government in Ottawa has agreed to the imposition of these restrictions. I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture what actions he has taken in trying to comonmicate the difficulty of our industry and the survival of our industry over the long term and what actions he bas recotJIIrndcrl to the rederal government in this regard? Hon. Harry Eons (Minister of Agriculture): Mr.

Speaker, honourable members will recall the difficulty we had in getting this current crop year into productioo, and I applaud all who contributed to resolving the issues that we faced this spring which resulted in an above-average sugar crop being harvested this year in Manitoba. I am extremely disappointed that this action is now once again putting in jeopardy our sugar industry here in the province of Manitoba. I can indicate to the honourable member that I have written directly, and we have been visited, both my colleague the Trade minister for Manitoba, the Honourable Mr.

Downey, and I have met with the senior management people from the sugar industry in Canada. We have specifically been requested to place this item co the agmda of the coming meeting with ministers and with Minister Goodale on Dec. 18 and 19. I want to say emphatically, throughout the difficulties that we had with the Americans on the dmum and the wheat questico, Manitoba kept putting the sugar issue on the table because we were concerned about it.

I am disappointed, quite frankly, that the federal government, it would appear, has allowed this actico to have takm place, and we will do our best to redress the issue. Mr. Penner: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister: In light of the fact that the federal government has not taken actico, has not been approaching the Americans in a meaningful way, and in light of the fact of the wheat restrictions that have been placed on our wheat growers, is it your view, No. 1, that the Americans are going to ccotinue with this kind of restrictive action, and is it your view that- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member's question is out of order. It seeks a personal opinion. 1he honourable member for Emerson, do you want to rephrase your question, sir? Mr. Penner: I am wondering whether the Minister of Agriculture would agree to ask the federal Minister of Agriculture for a meeting to personally discuss this matter and make sure that the issue is properly known in Ottawa? Mr. Eons: Mr.

Speaker, on a personal note, I am offended that you would deem my personal opinico to be out of Older before you have heard it, but be that as it may, I want to indicate, and members will recall, and certainly my Premier (Mr. Filmon) took this message, we said, no deal is better than a bad deal. Our concern was, when we were negotiating a deal on dmum and on wheat, that it would lead to this kind of ongoing harassment.

We are specifically asking that we use the dispute settling nrdJanisms that have shown to be valid and in fact have wOiked in Canada's favour in the softwood lumber issue, in the pork issue, and we should be addressing our trade disputes with the Americans in that manner. That is the m:ssage that I am taking to Minister Goodale, and I ask, quite frankly, for the support of the Liberal members, certainly the Liberal members in rural Manitoba. I ask because this is an extremely important issue. 1he plant is in the constituency of Mr. Axworthy, and there are 150 jobs at stake here in the city of Winnipeg, as well.

Highway Construction Projects Northern Manitoba Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, my

preamble is a very short one. My questions will

308 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 9, 1994 be directed to the minister who is responsible for those trails in northem Manitoba. I believe the same minister is responsible for paving all roads in southern Manitoba. Y estenlay he suggested that the traffic in northem Manitoba is so small that it does not count That is another way of saying that people from northern Manitoba do not count, and they have no right to expect anything from this governro:nt. This attitude is reflected in the Highways budget.

Given that this government has reduced spending in the North from 15 to 20 percent of the budget down to less than 5 percent, what level of funding does this minister think is fair for northern Manitoba? Hoo. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned to the m:mbers opposite yesterday, we have 3 percent of the traffic up there, 8 percent of the expenditure budget on maintenance and 5 percent of the expenditure budget on capital. Every part of the province needs consideration.

Yes, we all have to acknowledge that we have to look at the amount of traffic on the road to determine the wear and tear on the road and the safety hazards on the road. Every once in awhile, we have accidents on roads and we try our best to be sure the roads are safe. 1he member has to acknowledge that when his govemmcnt was in power, they did not do DllCh on those roads. They were built to a pioneer standard. We have a lot of work to do.

The road that he is refening to, whether it is 391 or 373, the expected cost that the g(M".DlDlC':nt is going to incur in the Province of Manitoba in the years ahead to get to a paved surface is $80 million a road. We are moving step by step in terms of projects each year to upgrade the roads toward that objective. 1he member has to realize I have to look after all roads in the province to improve the safuty, including the roads in his own constituency. If we spent $5 million on it this year, next year I would imagine it will be in the same category. Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Speaker, I realize that this minister either does not understand or just does not care for those residents of northern Manitoba. I am trying to make him understand that all we want is what is fair. I would like to ask the minister how he thinks the mines at Leaf Rapids, Lynn Lake, Snow Lake, Thompson, along with the forestry operations in 1he Pas and elsewhere are supposed to ship their goods and supplies in a cost-efficient manner when the roads are in such poor shape. Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, in The Pas area we have spent mmey on roads.

In fact, a bridge is being built oo 283, I believe is the road number, to llOO""'xldate the movement of freight traffic. We accommodate in terms of RTAK routes in the wintertime in northern Manitoba to accommodate the movement of goods. We negotiate with the people who are in the commercial business up there to try to be sure that the roads that are built are done in the fashion that accomplishes what they want to get done. Louisiana-Pacifi~ road is being built there to accommodate that particular operation which creates jobs in the North.

That member is exceedingly unfair if he is accusing us of not looking after all of Manitoba. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Speaker, my final question is to the same minister. Could the minister perhaps table any correspoodence from northerners suggesting that they believe the roads in Norway House, Cross Lake. Leaf Rapids, Nelson House or Moose Lake are fit to travel on? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, that is an unfortunate statement the member made, that the roads are unfit to travel on. Yes, there might be small sections at certain times where there is difficulty. Our department respoods to that.

Our department responds, but to say that the work that has been done has not achieved some degree of upgrade of the roads is a very unfortunate statement for that member to

December 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 309 make, and fair is fair. This department will be fair expired. with roads all over Manitoba. *

(1100) Education System Reform Parents' Forum Mr. Kevin Lamooreux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education. Earlier this year, the Department of Education brought in a blueprint for educational reform. and my questioo is relating to the throne speech where this Minister of Education is talking about having yet another parents' forum. My question specifically to the minister: Is the Tory blueprint a draft blueprint, that the parents of this particular forum will have opportunity to change the blueprint that has been introduced and in fact had been implemented in some areas?

Is this going to be a legitimate parents' forum? Hon. Oayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, with the accent that the nanber puts oo certain adjectives, I take it that be senses that the former parents' forum was not a legitimate exercise. He seems to be stating that. Let me indicate to the member- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. 1bere seems to be some feedback coming from the second row here. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, there are 15 significant pillars that are built into the existing reform document.

I have not heard the Education critic for the Liberal Party address one of those issues over the course of the last week. I would have to sense that the reform document has the mdorsation of the Liberal Party and consequently we will be, as I have said before, bringing forward a companion document which will be providing it:q)lenrntatioo details some time hopefully by the year end; if not, then in early January. Mr. Speaker, I would ask the member to wait until that document comes forward before he asks the question that he does. Mr.

Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has NONPOLnnCALSTATEMENTS Eaton's 12.5th Anniversary Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Stmgeoo Creek have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Yesterday I had the pleasure of attending the celebration of Eaton's !25th birthday, and I think it would be remiss of me and all Manitobans not to take this into consideration for the contribution that this company has made in the 125 years that they have been in operation in this country. Eaton's in 1905 built the second store here in Winnipeg.

A1. that time in 1905, the population of Winnipeg was ooly 77,000. When they opened their store here, at that time they employed 700 people in Manitoba. I had the pleasure of meeting the great great grandson Fredrik Eaton Jr. yesterday myself, who had come in from Toronto. Along with the celebration at the Eaton's store here in downtown Winnipeg, they also had a celebration in Toronto simultaneously with the one here in Winnipeg. I was there with His Honour and Her Worship Mayor Susan Thompson, and it was interesting, some of the comments that were made.

I think that Eatoo's has been a well-known place as far as the business C01DIIIJDity is concerned, and His Honour and I use the illustration that be referenced in what he said about the Eaton's company. He said when he grew up in rural Manitoba people many years ago did not come to Winnipeg, they came to Eaton's. That was something I think was pretty much predominant throughout all Manitoba. The other interesting comment, and I remember this too as a young person, anybody that ever met at Eaton's would meet at the statue of Timothy Eaton.

I would just like to illustrate the opportunity that Eaton's has offered to so many people in this great province.

310 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 9, 1994 I understand our own Premier got his start in Manitoba and you too, Mr. Speaker, I understand were an employee of the Eaton's company. On behalf of the people of Sturgeon Creek and, indeed, I would hope all my colleagues here in the Legislature and all Manitobans would join together in wishing Eaton's 125 years of fw1her prosperity here in Manitoba. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Sixth Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: On the adjoumed debate, the sixth day of debate, on the proposed motion of the honomable member for E'merson (Mr.

Penner) for an address to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, in answer to his speech at the opening of the sessim, and the proposed amc:ndmeut of the honourable Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer) in amendment thereto. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I am very glad to have the opportunity to be here and to represent my constituents again and to welcome you back, your staff and the new Pages. I look fmwanl to being guided by your sense of fair play, your good humom and your very obvious respect for the history and public purpose of this Ownber.

Est-ce que je puis vous offrir dans le sens persoonel mes meilleurs souhaits pour Ia saison et Ia fete de Noel. [Translation] May I offer you personally my best wishes for the season and Christmas. [English] How does one sum up the last six years of Tory rule? How do I begin to put on the record what these years have meant for the people whom I represeot and try at the same time to reflect on the meaning for the longer term of the temporary trimnph of the free-market Tories at the end of the 20th Century? Mr. Speaker, most Manitobans are well aware that their world has changed.

Most will tell yw that this is not Manitoba as it ought to be or as it was. Of course, change is inevitable; in some cases it is also desirable. The generations which are represented in this House have expc:rieoced what an eminent historian has recently called in a new book, the Age of Extremes: Our Short Twentieth Century. He describes in three parts as a kind of historical sandwich, an age of catastrophe from 1914 to 1945, followed by some 25 years of extraordinary economic growth and social transformation which probably cbanged human society more profoundly than any other period of comparable brevity.

In retrospect it may be seen as a sort of golden age and was so scm. Almost immediately it had come to an end in the early 1970s. The last part of the century has been a new era of decomposition, uncertainty and crisis. Indeed, for large parts of the world, such as Africa, the former Soviet Union and Eastem Europe, the catastrophe has indeed been very sharp. During the 1980s and as they gave way to the '90s, the mood of those who reflected on the centuries past and futum was a growing fantaisie et Ia glum [phonetic]. Has this been the experience of our province and our people?-! asked myself.

We tend to think of ourselves as a fortunate people, not the lucky country in the way that Australia has come to define itself, but a fortuoate province, sbeltercd from the intimate face d. war or the desolation of famine or of extended civil strife. •

(1110) There is a good measure of truth in this, Mr. Speaker, but as I reflected on our short 20th Century, it took a slightly different form. Between 1914 and 1945, Manitoba faced enormous challenges. The post-war recession was severe. Class and ethnic divisions were evident and unsolved. A short boom period was followed by

December 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 311 the harshest of depressions. A Second World War again took sons and husbands and daughters to Asia and Europe, some never to return. In the late 1950s, however, like Western Europe, we shared in the expansion of prosperity, individual m>bility, and perhaps we too will come to regard it as one of our golden ages. The governments of Roblin, Schreyer and Pawley led a steady economic expansion and welcomed immigrants in those years, particularly from Britain and Emope. They created a public infrastructure which was open to all.

Like John Dafoe, the earlier John Dafoe, before them, 1hey saw the public school as the foyer, as the hearth place of this fortunate society, and they built them and supported them Through public celebrations of centennials and other festivals at the provincial and local levels, they created that sense of the commoo. good that was at the foundaqon of this fortunate society. The art galleries, the zoo, the nmsewns, the city and provincial paries, our colleges and universities all experienced significant growth in this period.

Universities and colleges in particular opened their doors to women and to many others who were the first in their families to attend post-secondary educatioo, and I suspect that includes a number of us here in this Cllamber. Modem-day Tories characterized this as the product of: and I quote, government spending like drunken sailors and expanding the role of government at the expense of the individual. In fact, Mr. Speaker, it argues and represents a remarkable consensus about the building of a plural society and the importance of COD1IliJDity investment.

Such institutions served our generation and, indeed, they enabled the majority of us to do together what we could not possibly have undertaken on our own. Public roads and transport gave us access to our parks and beaches, which were open to all. The public school system gave us trained, dedicated and energetic teachers from all over the world Our das~. too, reflected the United Nations.

Although there were strains, the remarkable achievement of Manitobans of that generation was that the ideals of a plural society, built m tolerance and teaming and nmtual support, survived and indeed survived to become our dominant public culture. In that historian's view of the short and brutal 20th Century, petbaps we would be an anomaly. Pemaps we can and should remind ourselves of this achievement. In part, of course, the ecmomic expansion of the 1960-to-1980 period made it feasible.

But what made it happen was a commonly held belief that the role of government was to bring people together across the province to participate in the broader political life. 1he role of government was to build a community and a public ethos which sought to equalize opportunity in all parts of the province, particularly in rural and northern Manitoba and across racial and class lines. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Olair) Madam Deputy Speaker, it was a public culture which was mnually reinforcing.

When the people believe that government is on their side, and when they see that government will build the bridges of public schools, public health care and publicly accessible recreation, which ensures that none of us is limited by aW<Jcnt or place of birth, they will offer an allegiance to their community. This was evkb1t in those }ars in the absence of varxfalism, in the lower levels of crime rates and in a visible commc:n sense of responsibility for our children. But as our fellow citizens look around their COJllDllm;ties today, they sense that we are now living in a very different world.

Wake up and snd1 the coffee, say the good old boys on the other side of this Cllamber. It is the new global ecmomy, tougher, meaner, leaner. Only the fittest, the toughest and the meanest will survive. And they speak of it as though these new economic laws have been handed down from heaven like some eleventh commandment But this is not so,

312 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 9, 1994 Madam Deputy Speaker. Around the world, the new libertarian right and the neoliberals represented by the Education minister and the rest of his colleagues set out to alter the consensus of community which had been built in the post-war years.

The awarding of the Nobel prize in economics to Freidrich A. von Hayek in 1974 and to Milton Friedman in 1978 are landmarks in the ascension of this new, more brutal intellectual world The 1980s saw the creation of numerous think tanks and policy institutes of the right which set out not only their intellectual agenda but a campaign of propaganda to ensure that their message entered into the schools, colleges, the press, the speeches of all the bank presidents and the national public debates.

We should not accept the argument of this govemment that they are ID2cly hostages to a new world order that they do not control. They and their fellow believers around the world, they and the multinationals, they and the banks, they and the financial institutions which form such a major part of their Manitoba PC Fund created the new conditions. They created them knowingly and deliberately.

They knew that the consequences of their new order were greatly divided communities and greater inequality. '!bey dismissed it as structural adjustments and were prepared to see the emergence of a new uoequa1 and divided Manitoba. We ODJst now all live with the consequences of those decisions. Manitoba of the late 20th Century is an increasingly insecwc society. We have lost jobs, we have lost people, we have especially lost young people.

Those who have jobs are under increasing stress as they are forced to take on the work of two or three, and they live in constant anxiety that they too will soon be joining the ranks of the part-time labour force or the unemployed That is why there is so ODJch concern about the proposed changes to the unemployment insurance s~. Most Manitobans now know that it might be their tum next, and as the downsizing continues, people in more and more sectors are being faced with the insecwc society which has been deliberately created Fears of economic insecurity are well founded.

One of the ways in which the new Toryism works is to increase the gap between rich and poor in our society. In Canada, as a whole, their thetoric proclaims loudly the importance of training in high-skilled jobs, but in fact the majority of jobs which are being aeated, and particularly in Manitoba, are at the low wage eod. They are frequently part time or seasonal, and they are one of the obvious ways in which the Tories have aeated low wage economies in Canada. The decline in real wages in Canada and Manitoba has been well doamrnted and is evident to all of our people.

But from the perspective of OlU' once fortunate province, the full story is to be found in the redistribution of wealth in the commmity. The redistribution of income from low and middle income to high income groups in Canada has accelerated in the post-free trade era. The post-war trend of redistributing income from rich to poor began to end by the late 1970s, but this shift has accelerated strikingly since 1988.

Between 1987 and 1991, the share ofthe income pie of the top 20 percent of Canadian income earners increased an average of 1.2 percent per year, almost double their annual increase of 0.69 percent in the previous decade. The bottom 60 percent, the majority of ~ constituents, saw their share of national income drop 1.8 percent every year from 1987 to 1991, two and a half times faster than the rate at which they were losing the income in the earlier periods. What is significant is that not only is the gap between rich and poor growing, it is picking up speed.

In Manitoba, there has been a similar trend, a story which is told in the statistics, which show us as the child poverty centre of the country, and behind every poor child there lies a poor family.

December 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 313 The insecurity that people face in their economic life is compounded by the certain knowledge that, not ooly will they fall, but they will fall very far in the economic scale. As economic conditions deteriorate for Manitobans, they find that they are being asked to bear a greater proportion of the costs of the province than are the high income earners.

At a~ when they are JOOst in need of what we used to call the social wage, those public services and public institutions which treated us all equally and which enabled us to create secure and reasonable lives for our families, they now find that those are the very services, education, health, reaeation and transport which are being rendered less and less accessible-less equal by the very deliberate policies of the New Conservatives. Manitobans can no longer assume that their educatioo will eoable them to find a job.

They can no longer assume that their government will provide equal educational opportunities or equal access to health care. They can, in fact, no longer assume that govemmcnt is on their side, and that marks an important transition for this province, one which may have ultimately the severest of consequences. *

(1120) Manitobans feel insecure in their classrooms, their streets and even in their homes. Crimes of violence, including suicide, are increasing. Increasingly, these may be the acts of young people, some of whom seem to show little remorse. Madam Deputy Speaker, such periods of alienation and such periods of increasing crime have OCCtJiml before. They OCCtJiml in similar conditions of rapid industrial change because the general tendency of industrialization has always been to replace human skill by machines and has always led to dislocation and to families in despair.

Is it any accident, asked a recent authority, that 10 of the largest mass nmders in American history have occurred since 1980, typically the acts of middle-aged people in their thirties and forties after a long and prolonged period of being lonely and frustrated and full of rage? The same authority asked, was even the growing culture of hate in the United States an accident, a hate which becomes audible in the lyrics of popular music in the 1980s and which is evident in the growing overt cruelty of film and television programs? Poverty and unemployment lay the conditions for crime.

They do not in themselves create the crime or cause the crime. Correlation of rising crime rates and rising unemployment rates do not necessarily mean causality, but they do indeed lay the conditions. I am reminded of a speech that the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger) made last year, when he talked about growing up in Steinbach in the 1930s, when evecyooe was poor, and the crime rates were low. Indeed, I went back, and I checked the rates for Canada generally.

I thought perhaps that Steinbach and similar communities, where there is a unifotmity, a unity in the COIDJIWDity of cultural values and of family links, pemaps that was the exception. But in fact, across Canada during the Depression, crime rates did not rise substantially. So what is the difference between the correlation now in the increase in crime rates and in the increase in poverty and in unemployment? I think there are two differences. What is different today is the widening gap between rich and poor. During the Depression, everyone was poor, and the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Driedger) made that point very well and very clearly, but now the gap is growing. As I mentioned earlier in my speech, the rate at which that gap is growing is speeding up like a ball rolling downhill, and it is gathering speed as it goes. We know the consequences of that in the cities, not just in Winnipeg but elsewhere, and we are well aware of the implications that that widening gap has for, particularly, our young people. I think a second difference that I would see between now and the 1930s is in fact that the

314 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 9, 1994 evidence of the gap between rich and poor is not as readily apparent to the majority of people. In the days in the 1930s, when we had the young and beautiful, the Great Gatsbys or the Timothy Batons of their day who lived well during the depression, that wealth and the evidence of that wealth were not widely known to people outside the small enclaves of Rosedale perhaps or of Westmount or of Shaughnessy. The great majority of people did not know of the way in which the very rich lived.

But now in every home are beamed the television dramas, the television melodramas, the evidence of glitter and gilt that is there in the idealized version of North American society. People, whether they live in Pukatawagan or whether they live in Steinbach, are now very aware of a great variety of different kinds of life, ones which are lived in a way very different from the conditions into which they are put. I think a third difference is now the difference between the place where children are bom and the aspiratims to which they can legitimately achieve.

I would expect in Steinbach in the 1930s it was legitimate to expect, as it was in Winnipeg in the 1950s, that me would achieve a higher standard of living, a higher level of education than one's parents and that me would be able to find a job as one came to be an adult. Those assumptions are not there now. None of those assumptions are present in our young people, and that is a substantial difference from the 1930s. What is also diffi:rent is the violence of our own day and the speed with which it is taking hold and its poisonous and racial overtones in parts of our inner cities.

What is also different is the response of Tory govemments. In the middle and late 19th Century, when instability and insecurity brought increasing violence, the state respmdcd here and in Europe in a variety of ways. Yes, they created police forces and they used the pov.a-of the state to mitigate the worst excesses of their new free market capitalism. They brought public enterprise to social services, clean water, public health facilities, wash houses, sanitation and disease control, public housing inspection and health facilities.

To be sure, the control of disease and the creation of police forces all made life more safe and more comfortable for everyone, particularly in the cities, but it also gave relief to the lives of those who industrial capitalism had made poor and hungry and homeless. Now, as then, the market brutalizes as it forces wages down. Strong families cannot and do not flourish in a world of declining wages, diminishing cducatiooal opportunities and increasing economic disparities. Strong families weaken where their people have no sense that they have some control over their world and their pace of change.

I have said many times that you fimdamentally cannot restore comnwnities such as we need in Manitoba without restraining the market. You cannot have the stand-aside economic policies of this govemment of the last six years and not take sam: of the b~ for the increase in crime. If you are to make life more secure for the majority, you nmst also be tough on the causes of crime and on the causes of insecurity and despair in our society. The reformers of the 19th Century, Tories and socialists both, understood that.

The new Tories are not prepared to take responsibility for the public culture of insecurity that they have created. Yet it is obvious, MadamDeputy Speaker, that the more people grow up with a stake in society, with a chance of getting a job and some prosperity, the more likely they are to be a responsible member of society. The abarylonnrnt of sewre employment and the slashing of the welfare state are clearly causes for the loss of that social solidarity that was once one of the hallmarks of an earlier Manitoba society. In Manitoba as wcll we have a government which has chosen to divide us.

Indeed this has been the most divisive govemment I have seen. It is pitting pmnts against teachers, dividing nurses and staff of our health care system It is also a government which has chosen to cut welfare rates, have cut frimdship centres, which has introduced user fees in health care, abandoned children's dental care,

December9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 315 cut public schools and public school financing, increased by 140 percent the daycare charges, made no increases to the minimun wages over four years, and made a tax on labour with its ending ofFOS and with its Bill 22, attacking what John Kenneth Galbraith has called, the most civilizing force in capitalism Manitoba is now a very different place than it was six years ago. The insecmity, the diminished public service and the loss of hope will all present dlallenges for a new government.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we believe that the job of government is to bring people together, to bring together the parent, the child, and the teacher to pull in the same direction in education, to use public spending to overcome inequities, to bring labour, education and business together to create the conditions for prosperity and high employment which will enable Manitoba to regain its sense of itself as a civil society. •

(1130) Bon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister fl Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a pleasure to be able to have an opportunity to make a cmtribution to the throne speech debate. Before I commence that, Madam Deputy Speaker, through you I would like you to let the Speaker know how pleased I am that he is back in charge of us again.

I am sure that if you do not get that opportunity somebody else will-[inteljection] He will get the message anyway that we are very pleased to have him back in charge of this Assembly so that fair play is something we can all expect from the arbitrator of this Assembly. I would also like to welcome the new Pages as other people have and I hope that they indeed enjoy their stay here in the Assembly. It is indeed a pleasure to make contribution to the throne speech, a speech that has been widely acclaimed across this province.

I note from legislatim being proposed by opposition members there is a tremendous amount of agreement on the directim that this govemnr.nt is taking, and in fact I do suspect that many of them would like to perhaps vote in favour of this throne speech, if they were given the opportunity to do that. The other thing, of course, that we enjoy about the throne speech is to listen to fellow members of the Legislative Assembly and in many ways get to know them a little better as they make their contribution. I particularly enjoyed the member for Rupertsland's (Mr.

Robinson) contribution the other day in speaking about his experiences and his thoughts and feelings about the Assembly. I know as there are great strides being made toward self-govemurnt within this province and even talk about a new aboriginal party I would encomage him and his m:mbers to give that support because I think that certainly this is a step in the right direction. I know the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) agrees with that.

I will tell you that over the last year and a half I have had the pleasure of being the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship and being responsible in many ways for the quality of life that we enjoy here in Manitoba. I would like to just take a little time to talk about the department. We have a very vibrant, cultmal comnmnity here in Manitoba. Our major cultural groups are known throughout the country and throughout the world for the tremendous perfomumces they give and acclaimed here in Manitoba as well, and is part of that quality of life that we enjoy as Manitobans.

In comparison to other jurisdictions within this countiy where there are massive deficits and debts, our industry is in relatively good shape. We have been able to work with those groups on deficit reductim programs and, I might say, maintain the funding for our cultural industries where the mmicipal government and the federal government has decreased. In fact, there are certainly discussions again about the Canada Council making massive cuts to cultural industries in this country.

It will have a devastating effect on our industries here in Manitoba, but I am pleased that our funding and our support for them has been

316 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 9, 1994 fairly constant. As well, we have a number of heritage groups within the province which enjoy the support of the public, all levels of government, and I am vety pleased that we are able to do that. I would like to pedlaps make some comments on my responsibility in the citizenship area. I know that I expected the member for Inkster (Mr. Latmureux) and his colleague perhaps to get into that in their discussions in the last few days.

I am rather disappointed that they were not able to find the time or maybe have the courage to put some thoughts on the record as far as immigration and citizenship is concemed. I know my friend from Wellingtoo (Ms. Barrett) is quite interested in that. We have a situatioo in Canada where the federal government is making some dramatic changes in the levels of immigration that they are going to allow into Canada, and this is going to have a rather devastating impact on us here in Manitoba. We desperately would like to increase the number of immigrants coming to Manitoba.

We feel because we have 4 percent of the population that we perhaps should expect 4 percent of the immigrants to reside here or to come here to Manitoba. But changes that the- Point of Order Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order. I would want to know if the minister would entertain a very short question either now or at the end of his speech. Madam Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster does not have point of order. ••• Mr.

Gilleshammer: I am most encouraged that the member for Inkster has some interest in this issue, and of comse surprised that he did not put anything oo the record wh:n he had an opportunity the other day. I am sure either today or in the next short while we will have a chance to get into that discussion. I know this is a tremendously important issue for him. I am surprised and disappointed that he has not stood up for Manitobans. I want to talk a little bit about the responsibility of~ to stand up for Manitoba, to look after Manitoba's interests first I mean, this covers a wide spectrum of activities.

We had major taxation reduction on cigarettes which has a tremendous negative effect on health here in Canada. The nanber for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) and his Leader-! am sure he is not listening today wherever he is, but I think it was important that all legislators in Manitoba speak out on this issue and the Liberal Party was strangely silent on that issue. Similarly, we have not heard anything from them on the dmum wheat issue. We have not heard anything on the massive reductions to airports in rural and northem Manitoba which is going to mean the dosme of airports in northem Manitoba.

The Liberal Party of Manitoba has said nothing about that, and I think it is time that they stood up for Manitoba, took a stand with their federal cousins and supported the government in some of the criticisms. We have supported the federal government, we have worked with them on a number of issues on infrastructure, and we think these are good programs, but as Manitobans we also have a responsibility to criticize when criticism is warranted.

I might even mention in the natiooal park in Manitoba and I am not sure if the member for Inkster has been to the national park in Manitoba, but there is now talk of introducing user fees which is going to iiq>act oo families and seniors in Manitoba. They will be unable to attend that park the way they have in past So besides abandoning these northem and rural airports, making it difficult for Manitobans to visit a natiooal park, they have also been very silent on immigration issues. I would like to get back to that at this particular time.

In Manitoba last year, in the family class, immigrants coming to Manitoba, the immigrants

December 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 317 that came, 49 percent were family class. 1he changes that the federal government is now proposing to make is going to seriously cut the number of immigrants coming to Manitoba particularly of that family class. In Manitoba this province was built by immigrants and we have jobs and opportunities here in Manitoba that are going unfulfilled, that these immigrants would have an opportunity be part of mainstream Manitoba, but the federal Liberal government with the assistance of the Manitoba Liberals are going to hamper that activity.

I think that what Manitobans are looking for is a consistent message from the Liberal Party of Manitoba and I think that the new Leader of the Liberals is falling into the same trap that the previous Leader fell into when she was the Leader in Manitoba. I might just reference decentralization. The Liberal Leader was in my hometown of Mionedosa not too long ago and a quote in the local paper says that decentralization is another area where improveiimts can be made.

I can only assume from that that the Liberals now are supporting decentralization, but I would remind the Liberal Party that this is a massive change in policy. I am looking at a headline here in the Brandon Sun: Carstairs condemns decentralization. This brought forward editorials in fine rural family newspapers like the Minnedosa Tribune, which says, Liberals have given up on rural Manitoba. That was a result of their decentralization policy at that time. I sense, although it is not clear, that there may be a change in that policy developing. I see my friend the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray) here.

People in Minnedosa remember her attack on the Minnedosa courthouse when this government in 1988 and '89 put some small resources forward to repair a heritage building, to repair a courthouse in Minnedosa, and I remember her condemning that and saying what a waste of rmney this was and that those resources should not be spent in rural Manitoba. •

(1140) I remind her of what her Leader and one of her colleagues said about the building of the Minnedosa Hospital, that they would have cancelled that construction in Mionedosa, in Vinbl and in Elkhorn and they would have spent that money in Winnipeg. The Liberals in Manitoba have never been supportive of rural Manitoba, but I am sensing a change. I am sensing a change if in fact that is what the Leader of the Liberal Party is now saying.

In that same visit to Minnedosa, it was a picnic, I think, in June of this year, the Leader of the Liberal Party says that 100 percent of VL T monies will be retumed to rural Manitoba by that party if they become government. [interjection] Your Leader said that, and it is a quotation in the Minnedosa Tribune. I am wmdcring what he is going to do about the $14 million we put into rural development. Either he will cut that or he will raise taxes to find it. I am wondering what he will do about the $20 million from those revmues that we put into health care.

Either he will have to rut that or he will have to find new revenues through taxation. I am wmdcring what he will do with programs like this departnrnt where we depend on Lotteries revenue fur $35 million. I suppose he will have to cut part of that or else find new reveoues, but that of course should not surprise us. The federal govem1JlC"llf, and we applaud them for looking at efficiencies, looking at savings as they prepare for their February budget-the headlm in }'Cstelday's paper, of course, said, yes, we are going to do some of those tough things but we are also going to raise taxes.

In yestenlay's Globe and Mail, the headline, Grits propose income surtax, but they call it a special temporary. I would remind my friends in the Liberal Party that income tax in 1917 was to be a temporary tax. Liberals have to understand that what we have in Manitoba and Canada is not a revenue problem for

318 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 9, 1994 govemnrnt, it is an expenditure problem, and this is what the federal Liberals would do, and I suspect because there is such agreement on the part of the provincial Liberals in the area of immigration, in the area of transportation payments, in the area of changes to durum wheat and today sugar beets, that they would do the same thing. I would say that Manitobans should expect a Liberal government here simply to raise taxes. Now, this was not mly reported in Canada's national newspaper but also in the local paper.

A headline in the Winnipeg Sun, Feds in our pockets. That is exactly what they would do, and they talk about temporary tax hikes to deal with their problem. David Walker, who I think was the campaign chairman in 1990 for the provincial Liberals and often a spokesman for the Liberals, says tax hikes on the horizon. The consistency that we see with the provincial Liberals and the federal Liberals could mly lead one to conclude that a Liberal government would cmtain massive tax hikes.

I caution members who are here from the Liberal Party and I would hope that they would perhaps pass that on to their Leader when they see him again, that there has to be coosistency. What he says in rural Manitoba he should say here in the city. In fact, I have a letter to the editor that was recently published in November of 1994, where the Leader of the Liberal Party is in the Steinbach area saying, govemment has few roles to play beyond providing health care, roads and a few other basic services.

When be spoke in the Legislature back in April he said, gOYeJlliii!"SSt, I believe, has a greater role to play, mJie than the Conservatives believe it does. So again there is this lack of consistency in the message. Of course, probably no greater example than the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) demanding that his Leader build mJie casinos in Manitoba, and should be have been leader and, I mean, a lot of us and a lot of Manitobans are disappointed that he is not the Leader of that party, we expect that there would have been more casinos.

In that same trip out to the fine community of Minnedosa, the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Edwards), at that same time he tells rural Manitobans not to give up. He says, you cannot expect to go out and find 600 jobs at a time, but we have to look at creating six jobs at a time.

I kind of in a way agree with that, yet when he is speaking elsewhere he says rural development programs are "small potatoes." In fact, in using those kinds of analogies, I can recall wlrn we did not receive the North American Centre on Environment here in Winnipeg, something that I think the previous government and our government worked very hard to do, his response is, we have bigger fish to fry. Again there is quite a basic inconsistency in the message that we are getting from the Liberal Leader (Mr. Edwards) and the Liberal Party although the consistency is in the style of his analogies.

So Manitobans are wondering where the Liberal Party does stand on issues like decentralization, and again I remind them that we do not forget their condemnation of the Minnedosa courthouse and the Minnrdosa hospital and that they were wanting to spend those resources elsewhere. Of course, in another trip to Minnedosa I can remember the former Liberal Leader saying that we do not need personal care-that would be Senator Carstairs that 40 percent of the people did not need to be there.

She was going to throw them out into the street, and yet she wanted those expenditures here in the city of Winnipeg and some of the urban areas. Now that she has gone to the Senate, of course- An Honourable Member: In her crusade against patronage. Mr. Gilleshammer: Of course, I think it was the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureaux) who was going to bring legislation in on board appointments. What 'Yas the title the member for

December 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 319 Inkster had as a critic? It was the ethics critic. Of course there was to be no more patronage. He has been very silent on that appointment, very silent. I know that they have lost other staff from the Liberal caucus who have been appointed to immigratioo boards and other things. So again we see that inconsistency. I know that Liberals have been talking about this balanced budget legislation. An Honourable Member: What balanced budget legislation? Mr.

Gilleshammer: I know that we cannot ask the member for Inkster to vote on that, because he has not seen the legislatioo, but let us talk about the principle. Let us talk about the principle of a balanced budget. This govem••mt has worla:d very hard for seven years not to raise taxes, not to raise personal taxes, income tax, sales tax, and we have worked very methodically towards a balanced budget, and the balanced budget is oo the horizon. We also intend to bring out balanced budget legislation. So oo that principle, where does the member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) and where does the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Edwards) stand? They have not said. In fact, when there were stories in the media not too long ago about petbaps increased transfer payments and petbaps JDlre revenue ftom other sources there was not one member of the Liberal Party who said, here is a chance to balance the budget. They had 10 different ways to spend it. All they could think of was additional expenditures. So it does not swprise me that the Liberals are not going to support balanced budget legislation because, in principle, they do not believe in a balanced budget.

I might just also comment on the member for Inkster (Mr. Lan:wreux) sending petitions around the country.

In fact, many school principals and school teachers in my area are rather offended that some stranger from the Manitoba Legislature is sending petitions across the province begging people to sign them Their first question is, who is this persoo, and they say, well, usually when there is grassroots support for something in a staff room they might get a petition together and 1hey are wondering why a member of the Legislature is out there promoting and sending these things at some expense to the taxpayer and creating some misunderstanding out there.

I just caution him on these expenditures and whether it is to try and get a constituent work or whether it is to send out petitions, people wooder about these expenditures. I would just caution him about doing that. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to talk a little bit about McKenzie Seeds while I have an opportunity, because there have been some issues oo that in the m:dia in recent times.

I just want to let members of the House and Manitobans know that the govem••rnt is very much working with the board of McKenzie Seeds and the staff of McKemie Seeds to bring about a sale if it is in the best interests of Manitobans. To ensure that, we put forwan:l some preconditions, preconditions that would ensure that there was employment security for the employees of McKenzie Seeds, that the operations would remain in Brandoo, that the unioo would remain intact, that there would be an enhancement and expansion of the business through the upgraded facilities, technology and competitiveness.

We maintain and increase the market share and that whoever would be the purchaser would demonstrate a long-term commitment to McKenzie Seeds and the •

(1150) I COI•••end the board under the chairmanship of Dale Smeltz and other board members for the lhorough due diligence they have done and the job they have done in turning that company around to make it profitable. My hat is also off to the president, Ray West, and his staff who have worked so hard to make that a viable business. Having put forward those six preconditions, which no one has disagreed with, and I suspect by not hearing any disagreement there is support for that.

320 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 9, 1994 We have had a IDlDlber of unsolicited bids, and we have been working with Regal Greetings & Gifts of Toronto and their new owners the MDC corporation to see if we can in fact provide an opportunity for the private sector to come forward and purchase the business and grow the business in Brandon. The mayor and council of Brandon have been very supportive. The Chamber of Commerce in Brandon similarly supportive.

We have had a number of meetings with groups in Brandon and with the staff, and I must say that the president, Ray West, has a very close working relationship with his staff and there is tremendous support at the staff level. In fact, the only naysayer is the member for Brandon Bast (Mr. Leonard Evans), and it surprises me because, at an earlier point in history, be was Minister responsible for McKenzie Seeds.

He at that time was attempting to sell McKenzie Seeds to Ferry Morse and he was saying then as Industry minister that the deal fell through because Ferry Morse was unwilling to guarantee that the Brandon plant would keep operating for more than two years. This was a time when he was minister responsible, and he goes an to say: '"H the U.S. company had agreed to remain in Brandon. we would have approved the sale and possibly assisted them to put up a new plant.' . . . Nevertheless, he indicates that the Government is still prepared to sell if the right offer comes along.

An attempt has been made to interest several prospective purchasers-but there have been no takers as yet." 1\{y final direct quote: "'Frankly, the seed business is the last industry that we would want to be in,' comments Mr. Evans." An Honourable Member: Say that again. An Honourable Member: Tell us one more time. Mr. Gilleshammer: There are calls from all sides of the House for me to say that again. I think pedlaps maybe what I should do is table a copy of this article. 'Ihcn not only can all members have a chance to have a copy and read it-I know it is on Hansard-but I would like to table a copy of that.

It is more than a little bit surprising that that same member now is raising doubts. In fact, the Brandon Sm says he continues to cast the shadow of doubt, and when he does this, he says in a later paragraph: No, I have no documentation. but I make these comments anyway. Then he makes further comments, and then be says: No, I have not seen the agreement. So it is not surprising that when Miles Nodell [phonetic] from MDC was apprised of these that be talks about~- I cannot think of a more apt title, and in the quotation. he says: I think it is malicious rumourmongering by Mr. Evans.

I would caution him to make those conclusions and comments only after he has some opportmity to see direct evidence. But this is not musual and unexpected, because earlier in discussions he was known to have said that the fact is, economics of location would dictate to any private enterprise a central Canadian site because 80 percent of the market is in central Canada and all the materials are brought into McKenzie from the east. Not only is the market split 50-50 between east and west, also the raw materials that are used are also split 50-50 between east and west and, of course, the member for Brandon Bast (Mr.

Leonard Evans) later publicly apologized for this and said that these direct quotations were taken out of context He also cmcluded from that that Brandon is not the most viable location. I can tell you there was a fire storm within the City Council of Brandon and the business community and the Chamber of COIDIDelce or som=ooe who represents Brandon to publicly say that Brandon is not the most viable location for a venerable old company like Mckenzie's that is just on the verge of celebrating

December 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 321 its 100th anniversary. Rural Manitoba and Brandon needs supporters not detractors who are labelled by members of the business community across Canada as being a rumounnonger. My final COIIliDCDt on that topic would be another direct quotation where he says a written guarantee is virtually meaningless.

I suggest that in the world of business, guarantees are written and they are meaningful, so as we continue to work with'McKenzie Seeds and the people who are interested in purchasing it, I would hope the n:anber for Brandon East would talk from a basis of fact and not make up some of these stories that he has been charged with doing. Maybe just in conclusion I would like to nr.mic:n a few other areas of my department that I think all Manitobans can be proud of.

We have recently concluded a recreation convention in Brandon and met with recreation groups from across the province who are extremely pleased with the partnership and the relationship that recreation groups have with government. We know that recreation is just a tremendously important part of life in the city of Winnipeg and life in nual Manitoba and that we are pleased that that partnership continues.

We know that good recreation programs have a tremendous effect em other aspects of life, that where we have put good program; in place the crime rate has been reduced We know that healthy conmnmities and people who are interested in wellncss know that recreation is an integral part of life within those comnnmities. We look forward to cootinuing to work with them Similarly I was recently at a library convention in Brandon where librarians and library boards from across the province gathered paper that came forward from the library community, asking for increased resoun::es for communications, increased tedm.ology.

We have been able to do that through additional grants and through the Manitoba Commmity Services Council. We are automating those libraries to take advantage of the infoimation highway that they will soon be on. Similarly, we w~ able to give the libraries a 50 percent increase in their opemting grants by putting another millic:n dollars into rural libraries. Part of that was a $5,000 collections grant, and I know that libraries across the province are benefitting from that. In libraries that I have been in in recent times-a beautiful new library was opened in Stonewall.

My colleague Ed Helwer and I were in Stonewall, and it is gratifying to see the beautiful building that has been erected there by the Town of Stonewall. I believe the Town of Teulon and rural nnmicipalities were involved in a partnership to build a tremendous library there. I was hoping the member for Inkster (Mr. l...amJureux) would have time to ask a question on immigration. Perhaps we will not have time, but I do not want him to forget that, and I would hope that maybe in Questic:n Period soon he would raise that.

Getting back to libraries, the Stonewall library is one that any community in North America would be proud ot: and their bookmobile and their new facility and their enhanced facility is going to certainly provide, not ooly a recreational aspect for people there, but an infoimational one as well. Similarly, libraries across the province are improving their collections, and we are very pleased to be able to respond to that. •

(1200) Having said those things and not having the opportunity to get into a lot of the other issues that I would expect all of the members of this Legislature to stand up for Manitoba on-and I am sure that the member for Inkster and some of his colleagues will have that opportunity to put their platform forward, to put their stance forward, where they do stand on the reduction in the tobacco tax, the alarming discussions that are taking place on the removal of military personnel from this province, both in Portage Ia Pmirie and St. James, that they have been strangely silent on.

I believe his Leader represents the constituency of St. James. I am concemed with their lack of policy, their lack of concem for rural Manitoba,

322 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 9, 1994 where rural airports are going to close because of the reduction and the disappearance of those airport grants and many other issues that the deputy leader of the Liberals should be speaking out on.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I think, with those few comments on the throne speech and what I see as widespread support throughout Manitoba, it seems to me the ooly area we differ on, just judging from the legislation coming forward, very similar to goven:u:nent legislation, that they would be supportive of this throne speech. 1he ooly place we depart, I think, is on that balanced budget legislation. Even though they cannot speak directly on the legislation, they could make comnrnt oo the principle, but I think pemaps they do not support it, and they probably should say that.

So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank the Assembly for the time and look forwaro to other comments on the throne speech. Thank you. Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Thank you very o:uch, Madam Deputy Speaker. Once again I am very honoured and feel privileged to rise again in this Ownber to offer some remarks as a teply to the throne speech. First of all, as everyone else I am SUte has done in their teplies, I want to take the opportunity to welcome all members back to the Legislature, to this Chamber.

It is nice to be back even for the short time that we are sitting, 10, 12 days, I believe, is the time that we are sitting. Nevertheless, it is nice to be back to see ooce again the members of this Legislatme. I want to acknowledge the work of the Speaker and yourself, Madam Deputy Speaker, for having all the patience and giving us support in times of debate. I want to also congratulate the young people who have been appointed as Pages for this session.

I hope that their stay in this Legislature, their experience in this Legislature, will enhance their growth and developnrnt and that this work here in the Legislature will be meaningful for them Madam Deputy Speaker, I guess befote I get into my speech, I also want to wish you and the Speaker and all members of this Legislatme good health, contmtrrrnt and happiness as we approach the holiday season. I wanted to concentrate on issues that are most itqlortant to the people of northem Manitoba.

For example, this moming we talked about the transportation system in the North, the condition that our roads and highways are in. I have been hete just a little over four years now and I remember, Madam Deputy Speaker, when I was chief of my band and coming to the provincial goven:u:nent to do whatever business I had to do with the provincial government, I was always told that we cannot deal with you because you are a federal responsibility. You have to go and knock on the doors of the federal government because you are a tteaty Indian.

Now that I am here as a member of the Legislative Assembly, I feel now that I have become a northem problem In those days they used to tell me that I was a treaty Indian and that I would have to go to the federal government Now I am being told that I am a northem problem, Madam Deputy Speaker. At the same time, I am told that the teSources, revenues that are derived from the citizens of Manitoba, the natural resources of Manitoba belong to all Manitobans. We agree with that. We agree with it wholeheartedly except that we find it ~y difficult to understand the actions of this govemmcnt.

When you look at the natural resources that are generating tevenue for this government from mioing, from fOteStry, from hydro, and yet it tums around and tells people from northem Manitoba that essentially we do not count because we ooly munber so o:uch. We only have so many vehicles travelling oo our roads so not to worry, you do not matter, you do not count, and at the same time being told that all the resources belong to all of Manitobans. That is what we are having a hard time accepting and understanding.

; December 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 323 •

(1210) The transportation system, as far as we can gather, is one of the crucial prerequisites for any economic development to take place. If we hope to have any economic development activity in the North, naturally we have to have a transportation system Wehavetohave roads. We have to have airports. We have to have the railway. We have to have the Port of Olmchill, and yet when this governnrnt talks about all of the good things that it is doing for northern Manitoba and when we look around northern Manitoba to see where all these good things are happening we have trouble accepting what the government is saying.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I think sometimes the government expects people from northern Manitoba to jump up and down and say that the government is doing a good job, but the goven" •l'111 is not doing a good job. Therefme the people from northern Manitoba are going to continue to press for fairness, for equality, for equity and for equal access to the resources that this governnrnt talks about when northern people ask for their fair share. We have to have the Port of Owrcllill maintained. We have to have the railway system maintained. We also have to have the airport system maintained.

You see, not ooly is the transportation system an economic issue in the North, it has become a health and safety issue. When you look at Norway House, for example, if they have to medivac people who are ill to Thompson or to Winnipeg, and if the airport is closed we are going to have some pretty serious problerm, Madam Deputy Speaker, and somebody in government is going to have to addless that. About a year ago the Northern Economic Developm.-nt Comnission finishOO their work, and they produced a report.

During the time that the study was being done, from time to time I would ask the Minister of Northern Affairs then for an update on the commission's wodc. 1he then Minister of Northern Affairs would respond by saying that once the report is released that I would be pleasantly smprised. (Mr. Speaker in the Clair) Well, the report has been out for over a year now and not one recommendation has been implemented from that Northern Economic Developm:ot Comnission work that was done. A lot of people spent a lot of time. They genuinely believed the government when it announced the establishment of the commission.

They took it very seriously, and they came to the meetings, to the bearings, to put forth their ideas as to how they saw the economic development taking place in the North. So far we have not seen anything. Not one rec()llUI1CJJdation has been implemented. I am not surprised, however, that the report is sitting there collecting dust because the gove• mJrJ d did the same thing with the Aboriginal Justice Inquily, a vety irq>ortant piece of work that was done by two eminent citizens of Manitoba.

Over 100 recc:mmendations under the provincial jurisdiction were put forth by the two COJDlDlSSioners, recommendations that the provincial government did not have to go to the federal government for anything. In other words, there were no jurisdictional problems. All the government had to do was have the political will and implement the recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. Mr. Speaker, the justice system in the North is another thing that I wanted to mention in ~ speech here this aftemoon.

In the court in The Pas for example over the past year one position was eliminated, and yet when I speak with the people from 1he Pas in tegards to the flow of cases that are handled by The Pas court system, there is a huge backlog, yet the government saw fit to eliminate one position, Mr. Speaker. Even one position had a vety significant impact on the work that is being done by the court officials in The Pas. The Victim. Assistance Program, as far as we are concerned in The Pas, served a very useful pmpose. It provided a lot of help and assistance for people who are affected by crime.

One example of the good work that was done by the Victim Assistance Program was the recent

324 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 9, 1994 ttagedythatwehadin The Pas. It was a very, very serious ttagedy. A lot of people were impacted by the event. Not ooly the family, but the whole commmity of The Pas was impacted. The Victim Assistance Program came in handy, trying to pull the conmnmity together and helping them cope with the event that took place in The Pas.

The people in The Pas are also very concerned with youth violence in schools and on the streets, vandalism and so on, yet since I have been here anyway, a little over four years, I have yet to see anything significant, anything substantial being launched by this government in regard to the prevention of aime awareness programs and other things. Mr. Speaker, I also wanted to touch briefly on health care. I know the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) has been going around saying that everything is A-OK. I am sorry.

We have to disagree with the minister's assessment on the health care reform and the effect that it is having on people, particularly from northem Manitoba. I did a survey not that long ago, and I asked people to talk about the health care in the survey. Over 70 percent of the responses that I got back said that the health care had a negative impact on the lives of themselves and families in northern Manitoba. What I am particularly concerned about, however, is the way the health care refonn has been carried out so far, especially in northern Manitoba. I agree that there should be health care reform.

I do not have a problem with the government creating some ~eforms in the health care field. I do have a problem, a serious problem in tbe way that it is neglecting aboriginal people in the health reform. If you know northem Manitoba, and I am sure you are familiar with northem Manitoba, tbe geography of northem Manitoba, the transportation system, some of the conmumities, most of the comnmities are ooly accessible by air. In the winter tiine from January to late February we can use tbe winter roads.

We are talking about people who are isolated, who are there when-if a person, for example, breaks a leg or has a heart attack, the ooly place they can come to is the Dlll'Sing station, and the only people who can look after that person who may have a heart attack or the person with the broken leg is the nurse who happens to be working there. They have no other place to go. If the patient needs to be taken to a hospital for further tieatment, then that person would have to be go by medivac.

An airplane is summoned It takes an hour sometilnes to get to the community, sometimes more depending on the availability of aircraft at the tiine and depending on the weather, and in a lot of cases, depending on the tiine of the day that the incident is happening. 1bc:re is ooly F1in Floo., The Pas, Thompson and Winnipeg that our people can go to, and yet the refon:n is taking place in such a way that a lot of like the aboriginal communities were not taken into cmsideration when this health reform is being irq>Jmr.nted.

For example, a person coming from Moose Lake to The Pas to see a physician, the first thing the physician will consider is was this medivac or was this trip from Moose Lake necessary. I have documents in my office, Mr. Speaker, where people from Pukatawagan, for exatq>le, were being told by the emergency doctor in The Pas Health Complex, the nurse being told, why do you people have to keep sending people into The Pas? Do you not know that it costs $5,000 every tiine you send somebody in from Pukatawagan to The Pas Health Complex?

This is what the emergency doctors are telling these people, and that is why I am saying that the health reform process has neglected one segment of our society here in Manitoba, and that segment is the aboriginal commmity. They are out there. They are not being counted. Mr. Speaker, last spring there was a meeting held in Toronto, Ontario, wheie all the senior officials from all the jurisdictions in Canada were invited to go to this meeting, and that meeting had to do with aboriginal health. It was hosted by the Ontario goven" •n11 The Ontario government has a diiectorate called Aboriginal Health. The

( December 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 325 Saskatchewan government, the B.C. government have within their Health departments a portfolio that specifically addresses aboriginal health care. Even in Alberta, Mr. Speaker, there is such an office in the Department of Health that addresses aboriginal health. In any event, this meeting was held in Tormto last spring and the invitations had gone out to all the provinces and, you know, this government failed to send a representative to that nretiog. Yet the Minister of Health (Mr.

McCrae) goes around saying that everything is A-Okay even when it comes to aboriginal people. That is not so. The attitude of this government towud aboriginal people is shameful as far as I am cmcemed. Why else would they ignore the plight of aboriginal people especially in the area of health care? Why else would they not have a department that would specifically address aboriginal health care? Mr. Speaker, I am not going to congratulate the government. I do not have a reason to congratulate the government. Mr.

Speaker, about a month ago I wrote a letter to the Minister of Health talking about this very subject, quite a lengthy letter. In that letter I asked the Minister of Health if this government was not prepared to do anything in the area of aboriginal health, then why do they not get out of the 1964 agreement? If they got out frmn the 1964 agreemeat, that would enable the aboriginal people to go on their own and negotiate with the federal government and maybe secme better health services on their own. Mr. Speaker, I will end my remarks there.

I understand I mly have so much time, so I will end there so that pedlaps other colleagues of mine will have the dlance to make their replies to the throne speech. Thank you. Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I realize that I will only get started today, but it is indeed an hooour and a pleasure for me to address the members of this Legislature on behalf of the fine citizens of the Gim1i constituency on matters of the throne speech and on the efforts of the govemn lf'.Jlt to ensure the prosperity and security of the people of this province.

I would first like to extend a wann welcome from all of my neighbours in the Gimli constituency to you, Mr. Speaker, on again assuming the role of orchestrating the smooth process of this Clamber. I am sure that all of my hmourable coJleagues share in my appreciation of your consistent, direct and just execution of your duties. I would also like to welcome back the Deputy Speaker, the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay). Like this government, she has exemplified the leadership and prudence in her role in her service to the people of this province over the past four and a half years.

Her dedication to the execution of the duties is much appreciated and duly acknowledged by all honourable members. We are again fortunate this session, Mr. Speaker, to have some fine Pages attending the Chamber for this sitting of the Legislature, and I would like to extend a warm welcome to them also. •

(1230) Mr. Speaker: Order, please. On that note, the hour being 12:30, I amintenupting the honourable m:mbc:r. The honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) will have 38 minutes remaining. The hour being 12:30, this House is now adjourned and stands adjourned Wltil 1:30 p.m Monday.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, December 9, 1994 CONTENTS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Bill217, Real Property Amendment Act

(2) Cerilli Presenting Petitions Physical Education in Schools Oral Questions Lamoureux 295 Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Rent Hike Cancellation Doer, Filmon Martindale 295 Health Care Facilities Reading and Receiving Petitions Chomiak; McCrae Physical Education in Schools Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Lamoureux 295 Edwards; Filmon Cerilli 295 Crime: Rate Mackintosh; Vodrey Tabling or Reports RCMP Annual Reports: Finance; Special Operating Mackintosh; Vodrey Agencies Financing Authority; Provincial Public Housing Auditors' Report 1994/95; Operations of Cerilli; Mcintosh Provincial Auditor's Office Stefanson 296 Sugar Industry Penner; Eons Introduction or Bills Highway Construction Projects Bill 203, Lotteries Accountability and Lathlin; Findlay Consequential Amendments Act Education System Reform Dewar 296 Lamoureux; Manness Bill 206, Small Business Regulatory Relief Act Nonpolitical St

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-6-7
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 6th hansardpdf 7.pdf
Language	en
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