Manitoba Hansard — 27 AprU 1994 (Sitting 15, 35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-15

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

- Fifth Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published uruler the authority of The Honoumble Denis C. Rocan Speaker Vol. XLUI No. 15 • 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, AprU 27, 1994 ISSN OS42-S492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Afflll atlon NAME CONSTm.JENCY PARTY. ASHfON, Steve Thompson NDP BARRE'IT, Becky Wellington NDP CARST AIRS, Sharon River Heights Liberal CERILU, Marianne Radisson NDP CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NDP CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste.Rose PC DACQUAY, Louise Seine River PC DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Rossell PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DOER, Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden PC DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach PC DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. Riel PC EDWARDS, Paul St. James Liberal ENNS, Harry, Hon.

Lakeside PC - ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood PC EVANS,Ciif Interlake NDP EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East NDP Fll. MON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley NDP GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Liberal GllLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa PC GRAY. Avis Crescentwood Liberal HELWER, Edward R. Gimli PC HICKES, George Point Douglas NDP KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Liberal LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Liberal LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas NDP LAURENDEAU, M�UCel St. Norbert PC MACKINTOSH,Gord St. Johns NDP MALOWAY, Jim Ebnwood NDP MANNESS, Clayton, Hon.

Morris PC MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows NDP McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek PC - McCORMICK, Norma Osborne Liberal McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West PC MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia PC MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East PC ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina PC P ALLISTER, Brian Portage la Prairie PC PENNER, Jack Emerson PC PLOHMAN,John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC REID, Daryl Transcona NDP REIMER, Jack Niakwa PC RENDER, Shirley St. Vital PC ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland NDP ROCAN, Denis, Hon.

Gladstone PC ROSE, Bob Turtle Mountain PC SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP SCHELLENBERG,H arry Rossmere NDP STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC STORIE, Jerry FlinFlon NDP SVEINSON, Ben La Verendeye PC VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry PC WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NDP

- - 677 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, April27, 1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Curran Contract Cancellation and Pharmacare and Home Care Reinstatement Mr. ClifEvans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of L.M. Emberley, R.H. Comeault, T.W.D. Combe and others requesting the Le gislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to pers onally step in and order the cancellation of the Connie Curran contract and consider cancelling the recent cuts to the Pharmacare and Home Care programs. Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of AI Moreau, J.H.T. Oarke, Mark Anderson and others req uesting the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Premier to personally step in and order the cancellation of the Connie Curran contract and consider cancelling the recent cuts to the Pharmacare and Home Care programs. APM Incorporated Remuneration and Pharmacare and Home Care Reinstatement Mr. Ge orge Hickes (Point Douglas) : Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Barry Hammond, Scott Kroeke r, Harold Shuster and others requesting the Le gislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Premier to personally step in and order the repayment of the $4 million paid to Connie Curran and her finn APM Incorporated and consider cancelling the recent cuts to the Pharmacare and Home Car programs. TABLING OF REPORTS Bon. Darren Praznik (Minister charged with the admi nistration of The Co mmunities Economic Devel opment Fund Ac t): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table today the Third Quarter Report, Dec ember 19 93, for the Communities Economic Development Fund. Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table three reports: the Annual Report 1992-93 of the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission; the Annual Report 1992-93 of The Cooperative Loans and Loans Guarantee Board; the Annual Report 1992-93 of The Cooperative Promotion Board. Bon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report for the Department of Natural Resources for the year 1992-93.

I would also like to table the Five-year Report to the Legislature on Wildlife . Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I, too, would like to table three reports: the Quarterly Fmancial statements for the Three Months April-June, 1993; Six Months April September, 19 93 ; and Nine Months April December, 1993. Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the 1993 Annual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System. Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, I, too, would like to table a Letter of Agreement between the Province of Manitoba, the Department of Education and Training and Dr. Beth Cruikshank. •

(1335) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill2- The Prescription Drugs Cost Assistance Amendment and Pharmaceutical Amendment Act Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri127, 1994 Downey), that leave be given to introduce Bill 2, The Pres cription Drugs Cost Assis tance Amendment and Phannaceutical Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'aide a l'achat de m�dicaments sur ordonnance et Ia

Loi sur les phannacies ), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 4-The Energy and Consequential Amendments Act Bon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speake r, I move, seco nded by the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness), that leave be given to introduce Bill 4, The Energy and Consequential Amendments Act;

Loi sur 1' �nergie et apportant des modifications correlatives, and that the same be now received and read a first time. I am pleased to inform that His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the contents of the bill, recommends it to the House. Motion agreed to. Mr. Speaker: The honourable minister has also tabled the recommendation. BillS-The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I would like to move, se conded by the Minister of Rural Development (Mr.

Delkach), that leave be given to introduce BillS, The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequentia l Amend ment s Act (Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route et apportant des modifications correlatives ), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill7-1be Crown Lands Amendment Act Bon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I move , seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enos), that leave be given to introduce Bill 7, The Crown Lands Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les terres domaniales), and that the same be now received and read a first time . Motion agreed to. BillS- The Fisheries Amendment Act Bon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enos), that leave be given to introduce Bil l 8, The Fisheries Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia ¢che ), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill9-- The Convention Centre Corporation Amendment Act Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae ), that leave be given to introduce Bill 9, The Convention Centre Co1p0ration Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Corporation du Centre des congres ), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table the message. Motion agreed to. •

(1340) Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Red River Community College 25 journalism students under the direction of their instructor, Mr. Donald Benham. Also this afterno on, from the Sargent Park School, we have eighty-five Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Bob Forrester. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for We llington (Ms. Barre tt).

Also, from the John Henders on Junior High School, we have fifty-seven Grade 9 students under the direction of Mrs. Manuella Vieira. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway ). -

- Apri127, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 679 On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Care System Private Laboratory Services Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, the government of Manitoba has cut beds , laid off nurses, cut people off home care, charged user fee s for walkers, crutches, equipme nt, and patients in Manitoba are suff ering. One of the many reports sitting on the minister's desk states that millions of doll ars, in fact $30 million per year is going to private profit-making labs.

I quote from the government report which states: Private labs have an adverse eff ec t by an inordinate consumption of health dollars. Further on, the rep ort says: Private labs are, quote , skimming the cream of tests. Mr. Speaker, why has this government that has caused beds to close and people to pay user fee s and nurses to be laid off not done anything about these million-dollar potential savings which its own report states is an are a requiring critical attention? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, the honou rable member 's question provides me with an opportunity to remind the honourable member that the issue of laboratory fee s, private and otherwise, will now be the subject of close scrutiny through the auspices of the medical services council, which is one of the results of the agreement reached between the gov ernment and the Manitoba Medical Association.

It would have been good if the honourable member, rather than being critical of this extremely comprehensive deal which provides improved services for Manitobans- it would have been better served if the honourable member had lent his support to that agreement because it does precisely what his question asks us to do. Mr. Chomiak: The minister missed the entire point. He re fuses to acknowledge that his own report states that private profit-making labs are not seen to be providing Manitobans with good value-end of quote, Mr. Speaker.

It talks about millions and millions of dollars going to private labs while he closes hospital beds, while nurses are laid off. When will this government take action to deal with private profit-making labs as stated in the government 's own report that they will not make public? I will table these documents. Mr. McCrae: Quite the contrary, Mr. Speaker, I believe my response to the honourable member 's first question clearly acknowledged a need for improvement in the area of the conduct of laboratory services in this province. That is precisely why I agree with the honourable member.

We need to get better value out of the dollars spent in that area. That is why I say to the honourable member then, why would he oppose a mechanism that will do exactly that? Why does he not get onside, along with members of the medical prof ession, along with members of the nursing prof ession, along with members of all the other health care providers and consumers in Manitoba, and get with the program and help us fix our health care system? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, again the minister misses the point. He is talking about some fee s to private labs.

He is not talking about what is identified in his own report, that these labs are creaming the crop of fe es. The government is cutting down services to public labs by forcing them to close . The tests are being creamed by these private labs, and the minister is saying he is doing nothing. It was identified in their own health reform document. What specific action is this minister going to take to deal with private profit-making labs that make profit at the expense of patients, according to the governme nt's own report? What action? •

(1345) Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, you can always count on the honourable member to use a health care debate or any other kind of debate to bootleg into the debate his own philosophy about private versus public.

680 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April27, 1994 If there are shortcomings in private or public services, it is our duty to do our best to try to improve the situation. In my estimatio n, the issue of regulation is what is required here and not simply to take the blinkered approach that says anything that is private is bad. It was not very long ago the honourable member was very, very critical of a pilot project involving a private company. The patients, and I believe it was CK.Y Television, said that the patients liked the service. The NDP hated it. Provincial Judges Early Retirement Package Mr.

Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice. Manitobans wonder how this government can afford to pay approximately $1 million to eight judges for them to work one-third time while there is no money in the budget for hiring of additional judges, while backlogs are at an historical high in the province and while the government cannot even fulfill the basic function of bringing someone from England to Manitoba to face justice.

It also raises the serious question of the independence of judge s in Manitoba and how the judges can hear cases where the Attorney General is a party in the morning, and in the afternoon those same judges come to the Attorney General with cap in hand for remuneration. My question to the Minister of Justice is: Would she confirm that the government has privately offered a compensation package for retirement to provincial court judges? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I totally re ject the member's

preamble and some of the points which he has put forward. He is wrong as usual. He is consistently attempting to put forward information which is not of benefit to Manitobans and which, in ma ny cases, is completely inaccurate. He seems to assume in his question, first of all, that we will not be replacing judges. Certainly, I have made the commitment that we are replac ing three vacancies, and we will certainly be looking at what is required. He continues to bring forward the issue of backlog, and he has offered no concrete facts about backlogs.

I have explained to the member, in this House, that the one court in which we have some concern around the issue of backlog is the Domestic Violence Court, and we are working very closely with the chief provincial court judge to deal with that. He then raises the issue of the time-limited voluntary retirement package , which we were well within our rights to have discussion with, but I will tell the member that the lead was taken by the Civil Service Commission. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, the minister just does not get it.

My question was very specific, and if there is misinformation coming from my mouth, this minister should be correcting the record. She has failed to do so, in fact, has only acknowledged my information. My question to the minister is: Will she confirm that the go ver nment ha s indeed offered a retirement package to provincial court judges? Mrs. V odrey: Mr. Speak er, I am happy to correct the record again. The member suggested this was something which I have done . I have let him know that it is the Civil Service Commission which has taken the lead in all of these matters.

Therefore, I totally reject what he has put forward in terms of a package in the morning and meeting with the judges around independence in the afternoon totally rej ect that. However, we are within our rights to offer a package. It is a one-time v oluntary retir ement package to judges, and we have had some judges accept it. Let me say to the member, too, something which he seems to have forgotten or probably does not know. There is no mandatory retirement age for judges in the province of Manitoba.

Therefore, this was an option to allow judges to take advantage of retirement and to allow the Province of Manitoba and the provincial court to refresh the bench. -

- April27, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 681 Mr. Mackintosh: I thank the minister for confirming that indeed a package has been offered and, in fact, that the package has been accepted by some judges . I also, then, ask the minister how she thinks that the government can offer such a package without it first being reviewed and approved by this Assembly. •

(1350) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Spea ker, the member has completely confused the judicial compensation package with this one-time voluntary retirement package for judges which falls outside of the req uirement. The member continues to assume also that we will not be replacing those judges. He is wrong. The member also does not seem to understand that those judges will be available to work part time, Mr. Speaker. It allows, if eight judges do take advantage of this retirement package, a part-time pool of 17 judges to be available.

That will certainly be of great assistance to the court, and, as well , naming further judges will refresh the bench. MATTER OF PRnnLEGE Provincial Judges Early Retirement Package Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. Johns, I believe you said, sir, on a matter of privilege? Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns) : Yes, Mr. Speaker, and I will be concluding the matter with a motion. As a result of the answ ers to my questions this afte rnoon in Question Period, the Minister of Justice (Mrs.

Vodrey) has confirmed that indeed the government, the Treasury bench, has been able to offer and has had accepted a retirement compensation package to certain provincial court judges. So this is the first opportunity I have , Mr. Speaker, of raising this issue. Mr. Speaker, I would like to table

Section 11 .1 of The Provincial Court Act.

Section 11.1 of The Prov incia l Court Act was enacted by this Assembly in March of 1990. That

section was brought into the Assembly at the initiative of this government. That

section requires very clearly that this Assembly review and approve the issues of salaries and benefits payable to judg es. There is no exception in there about short-term salaries or short-term benefits. It says salaries and benefi ts. The reason for this is so the independence of the judiciary can be maintained in this province so the government, itself, is not going and making deals with the judges in secret. Mr.

Spea ker, now that the minister has confirmed that a deal has been privately and secretly made by this government with judges without the approval of this Assembly, the government has, by refusing to comply with The Provincial Court Act, improperly obstructed the ability of the members of this Chamber to fulfill their duties, a duty that is clearly and succinctly set out in the legislation. This, I suggest very strongly, is a contempt of this Assembly. It is not just a failure to follow established practice. It is a denial of the basic rights of members of this House to fu lfill their function.

I conclude by submitting that the only remedy for the governme nt's failure to live up to its obligations and the only remedy available to this Assembly for the obstruction of its ability to do its job is by a matter of privilege. Therefore , I move , seconded by the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) THAT the issue of a judicial compensation package now offered to provincial court judges for the purposes of retirement and the government's apparent failure to comply with

Section 11.1 of The Provincial Court Act, thereby obstructing and interf ering with the duties of members of the Assembly, be ref erred to the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections. Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I think if you look on page 76 of the rule book for our Assembly here, you will see that "a dispute arising between two members as to allegations of facts does not fulfill the conditions of parliamentary privilege ."

682 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April27, 1994 Mr. Speaker, that is what we have here, a dispute over the facts. The member alleges one set of facts, that it is his belief that one

section of the judicial-whatever act it was, I am sorry I did not-The Provincial Court Act, was in fact not followed. The minister, on the other hand, says that what actions that have been taken were outside of the parame ters of that legislation. That, in my view, is a dispute over the facts. His matter of privilege ought to be ruled out of order. •

(1355) Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, in listening to the memb er for St. Joh ns' (Mr. Mackintosh) presentation and questions from yesterday and today, I believe that he raises a very valid concern and the government has been unable to demons trate that, in fact, the Legislatur e, in particular this governmen t, is, in fact, not in violation of some of the rules that we have passed inside this Chamber in tenns of legislation.

I think that there is some merit to be making a suggestion that this particular issue go toward a Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections and would strongly recommend that we give that serious consideration. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Spe aker, I think it is important in dealing with a matter of privilege to recognize-! say this to the government House leader. This is, I believe, an appropriate matter of privilege. It is not a dispute over the facts. The facts are clear.

The fact is the government has made a retirement offer that may approach upwards of a million dolla rs to two members of the judiciary. The fact is we have a statute that is on the books that is applicable to this House that states that all such packages, all such remuneration and benefits issues must be dealt with by the Legislature . Now, Mr. Speaker, seve rance is indeed in that category. This Legislature just went through the process, through an independent review of dealing-when Wally Fox-Decent was the chairman, it dealt with salary and benefits of ML As, and that included the que stion of severance.

I want to indicate, Mr. Spe aker, why indeed I believe this is a legitima te matter of privilege. Ftrst of all, it clearly meets the requirements of Be auchesne 115 which indicates it "must be brought to the attention of the House at the first possible opportunity." This is the first time we have had it confinned by the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) that indeed such an offer has been made. So this is the first opportunity.

The most important fact that has to be considered though again in tenns of a matter of privilege, and I quote Beauchesne again, Citation 26, is that a question of privilege is "partly of fact and partly oflaw." In this case, there can be no dispute of the fact. The minister has confinned that. I believe there can be no dispute of the law as well. The member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) just tabled the

section of the legislation that is applicable in this case . What really is at stake when you have to decide whether this is indeed a prima facie case of privilege is whether the actions of this government have once again violated the authority, the rights and privileges not only of this Chamber, Mr. Speak er, we are not just talking about 57 members, but the rights and privileges of all Manitobans, because when legislation is passed in this House, everyone has to abide by that legislation including this provincial government. So the bottom line is we believe very strongly this is a matter of privile ge.

It is about time this government stopped acting in such a high-handed way and respe cted the rights, the laws of this province, and the rights and privileges of members of the Legislat ure. Mr. Speaker: A matter of privilege is a serious concern. I am going to take this matter under advisement to consult with the authorities, and I will return to the House at a later date with a ruling. Now we will move on to Question Period. - -

- - Apri127, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 683 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (continued) Manitoba Telephone System Cable Network Sale Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, last year in front of the Standing Committee on Natural Resources and Public Utilities, Mr. Oz Pedde, the president and CEO of Manitoba Telephone System specifically indicated, and I quote from page 6 of his presentation: "Looking to the future, MTS is focused on leveraging the most out of its network infrastructure for revenue generation." Mr.

Speaker, we have now learned that, in fact, the government, MTS, are in the process, if they have not already signed a deal with a consortium of private cable companies- I believe Shaw Cable out of Alberta is a part of that, is involved in that at lea st; I do not know if they are ex clu sively involved-to sell off the cable network curre ntly owned by MTS. Mr.

Speaker, given the repeated commitment on paper and in words about this government wanting to lead the infonnation highway, be a part of it, can the minister indicate what the details of that sale are, if, in fact, it bas been concluded, whether or not MTS is selling off its cable network, and if indeed it bas, at what price and to whom? •

(1400) Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Mr. Speaker, there have been negotiations ongoing for some time with the Manitoba cable operators who have come together and fonned an association with the intention of improving cable services to all Manitobans who currently have cable and of putting in place a first in Canada, in fact, first in North America, a microwave cable television distribution system for rural Manitoba. Nobody in rural Manitoba now bas ca ble television of anywhere near what the people in the city of Winnipeg, towns and villages have.

That negotiation bas resulted in a Memorandum of Understanding being signed between MTS and the cable operators. They will purchase the existing distribution system for $11.5 million, and it bas a net book value of $7.5 million, so there is a net gain there for MTS in that process. At the same time, the cable operators have committed to spending some $35 million on capital upgrade of the existing system plus the microwave system. So everybody comes out with better-quality cable television, broader choice, a 199 0-type system, and the cable operators are putting all the capital in to do it.

The government and MTS is not required to put capital in. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have some details from the minister today and would appreciate his making public that Memorandum of Understanding which be speaks of. I would hope that would be a public document and that be would table it. My supplementary question for the minister: Who will own the new cable network? The minister talks about the existing cable system being sold off and upgraded with private capital. Who will own the new system, Mr. Speaker? On what tenns bas MTS guaranteed access for the public good to that new cable network? Mr.

Findlay: Mr. Speaker, the system will be owned by the cable operators. What they will deliver on that will be controlled by CRTC. They have to take all their applications to CRTC for approval. And what was your other question? [intetjection] Ob, public access for MTS. There is a component in the agreement that MTS bas access to the system for whatever delivery they might also want to do. There is a very good working relationship between the two.

They are looking at new ventures between MTS and the cable operators to upgrade and do further research, to even improve the delivery of those kinds of signals to Manitoba residents. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, what I am most concerned about is that a year ago, Mr. Pedde specifically indicated that ownership of the network infrastructure was essential for revenue generation. Today, the minister is saying they are selling off ownership.

684 LEGISLATIVE ASSE:MBL Y OF MANITOBA April27, 1994 My question for the minister: Has MTS gained a guaranteed access to that new system at set prices , or are we going to be hostage? Is the public good going to be hostage to fluctuating prices based on-[interjection] The Minister of Health talks about CRTC. They regulate. This contract is going to be signed by this government.

My question for the min ister: Is there something in this contract guaranteeing set, affordable prices for the public to have access to that new cable network, because the infrastructure is essential to the public being able to take advantage of the new information highway? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, they have signed the Memorandum of Underst anding. The final agreement is in the process of being negotiated. I want to let the member know that only in Manitoba did the telephone system own the distribution system. It is the only province in this country where that existed.

The cable operators have dedicated two lines-[interjection] I wish the member would listen-in the system for distance education. That will improve, particularly for rural Manitobans, the ability to link into the information highway for distance education. Olarewaju Family Deportation Intervention Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, on Monday, in response to a question that I asked the Minister responsible for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, he stated that he had no difficulty urging the federal minister to give any citizen fair treatment.

This was in response to my question about the potential deportation of the Olarewaju family. I would like to ask the minister or the Premier (Mr. Filmon) if the government interceded on behalf of this family in the meantime and what his position is given the fact that the federal Min ister of Im migr ation has refused to review the deportation hearing for this family. Hon. Ha rold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citi zenship) : Mr. Speaker, yes, this is clearly a federal matter where they are truly the gatekeepers on immigration matters.

Officials from my department have been in daily contact with federal officials. However, I have to tell the me mber there are issues of confidentiality around any specific case to do with immigration that the federal government is not on their own prepared to share with us. We have urged them to look at this carefully and to be sure that fair treatment is given, based on the facts that they are able to share with us. Olarewaju Family Deportation Intervention Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr.

Speaker, my understanding is that-! know certainly on this side of the House, we have been inundated all week, certainly all day, since the deportation was approved by the federal minister. I am wondering if the Premier would now intervene on behalf of this family and go straight to the federal Minister of Immigration or even the Prime Minister and urge that this family be allowed to stay in the province of Manitoba. Would he stand up for this family that has brought a great deal to the province of Manitoba and urge that the minister do the right thing and rescind the deportation order? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, this is indeed a very troublesome issue, and certainly I know that the federal Liberal government has made its decision on the matter, a decision that certainly appears to be one that is ver y questionable under the circumstances. I think it is regrettable that with all of the members of the federal government from Winnipeg, there was no urging or intervention on their part to the best of our knowledge. Mr. Speaker, I would be more than happy to send a letter from my office to the federal government to urge them to review the issue and to intervene in the situation. Ms.

Barrett: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the Premier's willin gness to intervene on their behalf, and I just would like to ask that he do that immediately. We on this side of the House have written and called the minister responsible for - -

- - Apri127, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 685 immigration's office. We did it last week. My understanding was that the minister responsible for citizenship had intervened, and I am hearing now that perhaps that is not the case. I would urge the Premier to pick up the phone and phone the new Prime Minister of the country to attempt to make this situation reverse itself. Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Cult ure, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr. Gilleshammer) has indicated, his department has been in daily contact on the issue, and they have been fo llowing through to the best of their ability.

I will , as I have indicated, write directly to the minister responsible and the Prime Minister to urge their review of this particular case. Manitoba Telephone System Cable Network Sale Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, the minister responsible for the telephone system has just indicated that he has signed a Memorandum of Understanding with the cable companies with regard to MTS 's jurisdiction over cable in this province .

I would ask the minister today if he will follow from his amwers that he just provided by tabling that Memorandum of Understanding in the Legisl ature and explain to the Legis lature at this time what provisions he has made to protect public access to the electronic highway that is emerging and ensuring that reasonable rates will be the order of the day for all users in the future. Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Mr. Spea ker, in terms of access to the system, it is regulated by CRTC as the cable system always has been in Canada.

If you noticed today, the Supreme Court has said that all telephone companies, no matter whom they are owned by, will be regulated by CRTC, so we have moved in continuing in that direction. The cable companies have guaranteed two channels for distance education. Again, that is a si gnificant comm itment by them. The Memorandum of Understanding has been signed by MTS and the cable television operators. I will ask them if they are prepared to have it released. •

(1410) Mr. Plohman: Well, Mr. Speaker, the minister also indicated that this was a win-win situation. We would like to know, on behalf of the people of Manitoba, because we are concerned about the ability of the public to have access to all services over the electronic highway in the future, how this is a win-win situation. Let the minister come clean with all of the facts to substantiate the decision he has made that this is a win-win situation for the public of Manitoba. Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Speaker, I would very much like to tell the member again, if he did not hear it the first time or could not read the press release , everybody that currently has cable television in the city of Winni pe g, towns and village s, has improved service in terms of signal and choice of channels and a much broader system than they have today. Today, nobody who lives in a farm home has cable television services available to them.

A fi rst in Canada, in fact, a fi rst in North America, a microwave digital cable television system will be built in Manitoba If the member is against that, he is against rural Manitoba which has never had cable television before in this province . Mr. Speaker, this fo llows on the heels of five years ago of being able to announce we were putting private lines in every rural farm home. We are now putting cable television availability in every rural farm home in Manitoba. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Speaker, I am asking the minister clearly , on behalf of rural Manitobans, why does this minister feel it is absolutely critical that the cable companies be providing this service and be given jurisdiction over the ele ctronic highway rather than MTS ? Why could the Manitoba Telephone System not provide this service? How many jobs are going to be lost there as a result of this government 's failure to provide the service through MTS? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, the member probably does not understand that all MTS owned was the

686 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri127, 1994 dist ribution wires, and the cable operators delivered the content over those wires. It is the only province in this country where that existed and it did not-[interjection] Would you please listen? You asked the question. You did not understand the issue. Please listen. There needs to be at least $35 million invested in that system to upgrade it to modem standards, and an additional $100 million is expected to be invested. There is no reason that the public should stand behind the risk of that investment.

The cable operators have come forward and said, if we can buy the system for $11.5 million, we will invest, in addition, $35 million, put in place 40 penn anent jobs and all the construction jobs. They are putting forth all the investment to upgrade the system without any risk to the public purse. I think that is a win , win, win for everybody involved. Gross Revenue Insurance Plan Replacement Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River) : Mr. Speaker, in the budget and in the throne speech, the government mentions that they are going to extend GRIP coverage until 1996.

The province is talking with other provinces and the federal government about the national income safety net program. So me provinces already have their outlines of what they propose to replace GRIP with. My question to the Minister of Agriculture is: What is this go vernmen t's policy towa rds replacement of GRIP? Do they have a plan? Have they developed alternatives to the present GRIP program- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. Bon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Mr.

Speak er, the honourable member poses a host of questions, all of which ar e unde r active consideration by a rather broad group of agricultural people here not only in the province of Manitoba but throughout Canada. The committee is meeting later on towards the mid part of May for some final recommendati ons to be made to the Agriculture ministers' conference which we have the privilege of hosting here in Manitoba in Wmnipeg in the first week of July. There are different positions being taken by different provinces.

I can only indicate to the honourable member that in Manitoba, we hope to retain the basic program of support that the GRIP program has offered to Manitoba farmers for the past five years. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, since there is a safety net committee that is working, can the minister tell us whether he has given direction to this committee to consider looking at things such as capping cost of production, payment at the elevator rather than payment up front, issues that caused concern with this GRIP program, whether he has directed the committee to address those conce rns when they are developing a new program.

Mr. Eons : Mr. Spea ker, I would like to compliment my predecessor on the fact that most Manitob a farmers are very well aware that, particularly in comparison to their neighbours in Saskatchewan, we have a much better program. What we are all concerned about is that the level of govern ment supp ort, whether it is federal or provincial, be targeted as much as possible. We have to be extremely concerned.

Certainly, the last few weeks of international debate mean we have to be concerned about the attitude that our major trading partners take towards these kinds of support programs so that we do not build countervailability into them. They are complex issues and ones that I would ask the honourable member to engage me in debate on during the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture, which I am hoping will be coming about very shortly. Ms. Wowchuk : Mr.

Speaker, the minister criticizes the Department of Agricu lture in Saskatchewan, but at least that department has outlined what they want for replacements for GRIP. Will this minister table what his committee is proposing? What are you proposing to replace - -

- - April27, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 687 GRIP? Do you have a plan or do you not have a plan? Mr. Enos: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to be unfair to my colleagues in Saskatchewan. I do know one thing. They have to be worried because they have indicated to Ottawa and to the federal government that they have no plan at the end of this year. They are out of GRIP in the year '94, so they now have to put forth all kinds of proposals and suggestions for continuation in the post-GRIP period. I remind the honourable member that Saskatchewan, like us, works co-operatively with the federal government.

The federal government is a major player in these kinds of support programs, and we cannot define or devise individual programs at the provincial level. Youth Crime Boot Camps Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice. Today, the people of Manitoba can add more information to the growing body of evidence that demonstrates that the minister's punitive approach to youth crime will not work. A U.S. study shows that graduates of prison boot camps are just as likely, if not more likely, to return to crime than inmates who have served their sentence in regular prisons.

This study confirms what has already been concluded by many others, such as the U.S . House of Repre sentatives judiciary committee, which found that prison boot camps have no clear record of deterring future criminal behaviour. How does the minister reconcile the fact that her boot camp initiatives run contrary to all of the evidence which demonstrates that these camps only reinforce antisocial and violent behaviour and confirm participants as well-conditioned hardened criminals? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak about the full nine-point plan that this government has put forward to deal with youth crime and violence, a very comprehensive nine-point plan which starts at the preventive end, which deals with community intervention through the Youth Justice Committee, and, also, let me tell the member, deals with the toughening up of the Young Offenders Act. We have not heard one word from the Liberal Party in this province as to where they stand on the Young Offenders Act The federal government has not indicated that they will back up the position of this province.

Where does our Liberal Party stand in this province? Make themselves clear. Mr. Kowalski: Mr. Speaker, when we have an election, they will see our plan and they will see our position. Mr. Speaker, at its summit on youth crime and violence, the government distributed a paper entitled Boot Camps General Information. In this paper, the government recognized and I quote, that the boot camp approach is not culturally sensitive. Aboriginal groups have expressed their concern that these camps could isolate aboriginal youth from their communities and would bear striking and eerie resemblance to the residential schools.

Will this government assure this House that any plan commits itself to consultation with aboriginal groups so that appropriate solution to youth crime can be found? •

(1420) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, when I made the announcement of the nine-point plan, I announced very clearly the establishment of wilderness camps and also a boot camp which is the urban model. I have also said in this House that we have consultation with the aboriginal communities across Manitoba to look at culturally sensitive issues. Let this member never forget that we are dealing with offenders who have left victims behind, and this government is committed to our plan. Mr. Kowalski: Mr. Speaker, the nine-point plan gives so little recognition to the root causes of crime.

Does she not realize that without dealing with poverty, neglect, substance abuse and appropriate student supports that youth crime will continue?

688 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April27, 1994 Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Spe aker, our most recent budget has indicated our commitment in the areas of prevention in heal th, education and family services. Over the past years that this government has been in power we have put forward over a billion dol lars more, or approaching a billion dollars, in those areas of prevention. So this gov ernment ma intains a com mitment to prevention, but that member only wants to see dollars.

This government has come up with a prevention plan and a nine-point plan that will assist the people of Manitoba to become involved because this is a problem that affects all the people of Manitoba. Home Care Workers Safety Concerns Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, this government has not been enforcing its workplace safety regulations, including the worldng alone regulati ons, and this is problematic for many workers, including those working in home care. Home care wotkers are often wotking in isolated situations.

They wotk at night, 97 percent of them are women, and they are often the victims of violence. My question is for the Minister of Labour. What will this minister do to ensure that home care wotkers who are the victims of violence are not revictimized by being removed from their jobs? Bon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, first of all, if there are specific incidents that the member for Radisson would like to bring to my attention or that of my department I would certainly welcome that particular information. She ha s not done that to date.

If the member is suggesting, knowing all the demands on the government, that we require two home care people to serve in each case just so that there are two people in a wotk situation, that seems not at all appropriate or practical , I would think . Ms. Cerilli: If this minister was interested in hearing about cases, he would enact the Workplace Safety and Health regulations which would make sure- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is not a time for debate. The honoura ble member for Radisson, with your question, please. Ms.

Cerilli: Can the minister tell the House what emergency provisions are in place, including supervision for night wotkers, a buddy system, some kind of emergency beeper system or cell ular phones to make sure that these wotkers are not going to be isolated and are going to have as safe an emergency response as possible? Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, the member talks about Workplace Safety and Health regulations. This may be big news to her, but we have Workplace Safety and Health regulations in Manitoba.

They have been in place for quite a number of years, so to imply that we have no regulations is not at all accurate. I should tell the member, if there are specific cases that she feels should be brought to our attention, we would be more than pleased to have that happen. I can tell you that I, as minister, have not had a complaint raised to me by the unions involved specifically or by these emplo yees who have been brought to my attention. I do not believe my coll eague , the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae)--none that come to mind immediately.

Although she comes to this Assembly today with what appears in her mind to be a big crisis, I would suggest that she provide us with the facts, which might be rare . Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, I had hoped that the minister would answer my question about an emergency response provision for these wotkers. My final supplementary for the same minister: Will he commit to wotking with the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to ensu re that there is going to be information given in the client handbook for home care families and clients to make strong statements about violence not being tolerated in the workplace situation?

Mr. Pramik: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we certainly will take the member up on that suggestion, but I would just point out to the member that one of the great - -

- - Apri1 27, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 689 difficulties in health care- and I would hope the member would appre ciate this. I know myself, as minister, I have bad discussions in the past with health care provide rs. Just the issue of violence in a hospital, for example, there is another side to this, particula rly with nurses, where we had patients who were violent because of the natures of their illnesses or disease or in jury, that these are very, very difficult situations to deal with. What does one do? Does one just abandon that person? Of course not.

Making people aware that this is a pr oblem, or poten tially a problem, is certainly valid, and we will take the member up on her suggestion. Supported Employment Program Funding Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, the Supported Employment Program has 71 clients in the Interlake area. I would like to quote from one letter of support for the program: We have witnessed the benefits of this program to the people with a mental disability we serve. Not only financially , but the self-esteem and self-worth value of this program is enormous.

During these tough, economic times, government should be encouraging cost-efficient programs such as this. The people employed under this program are social allowances recipien ts, and by being gainf ully employed, the governm ent will save money in the long run. Mr. Speaker, currently , the program is operating on interim funding. My question to the Minister of Education is, given his government 's supposed commitment to training for Manitob ans, can he tell us today if his government will continue funding for this valuable training program serving people in the Interlake region? Hon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, we are allocating more funding to training initiatives across the province , but there is going to have to be a fair balance in sharing amongst all the divisions, of cour se, who want a level of training, so I cannot definitively answer the member's question at this point in time. I will try to do more so when we move into Estimates. Mr. Clif Evans: Mr.

Speaker, given that in the past two years of operation, provincial funding has not been appr oved in time for the beginning of the following year, which is disruptive and damaging to the program , will the minister tell the House when the Supported Employment Program can expect to bear about their funding, so that training and services can contin ue? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take the question as notice . Mr. Clif Evans: Mr.

Spea ker, given that the program is cost-ef ficient and re duces the dependence of clients on social assistance, will the minister commit to stable long-term funding for the program , as requested in this letter to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) from the president of the board of directors? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I cann ot make that commitment at this time. Minister of Famlly Services Retraction of Remarks Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, there are occasions when all of us are tom between the opinions of our co nstituen ts and our responsibilities to our pl atform or to our department in the case of minist ers. I believe that the Minister of Family Services should be standing up for the rights of foster families and foster children and standing up against the hysteria of some of her constituen ts. This is the Inte rnational Year of the Family. It is the Year of Racial Harmony.

Will this minister reverse her statement in the media that she is taking the interests of her constituents first and, inste ad, take responsibility for being the Minister of Family Services who provides funding to foster families? Will she put their interests and their rights first? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question, because it does allow me to put the facts on the record today for all Manitobans.

690 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April27, 1994 I had a call from a constituent, a couple of families, constituents in my constituency, as the elected representative for River East constituency, expressing a concern regatding an issue. It was an issue that was causing some problem for them, and it was indeed a constituency issue. In my capacity as the elected representative for my constituen ts in River East, I went out to meet with my constituents, as would any member of this Legislature, I am sure, and as did the member for Wolseley (Ms.

Friesen) last year when she had an issue with the Departmen t of Family Servi ces, went to the Minister of Family Services and asked for him to facili tate a reso l ution in her constituency. I think that did indeed happen. Mr. Speaker, what I have done is gone to listen to my constituents and as a result of listening, I will be attempting to facili tate a meetin g for my constituency to try to ensure that the issue is resolved in a very positive manner for both the foster family and that home and the issues that were raised regatding safety in my community. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Qu estion s has expired.

ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE (Sixth Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that this House approve in general the budgetary policy of the government and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Opp osition (Mr. Doer) in amendment thereto and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Second Opposition (Mr. Edwanfs) in further amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable member for In kster who has three min utes remaining. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I want to pick up on an area which the Minister of Edu cation (Mr. Manness) and other ministers have talked about in terms of opposition always wanting to say spend, spen d, spen d. I want to pick up in tenns of the question that I asked yesterday of the Minister of Education in trying to come to grips with the commitment that this government made to Manitobans back in 1991 when they said that they were going to do what they could to in crease the level of literacy in the province of Manitoba. •

(1430) I asked the minister yesterday in tenns of why it is that pa rticular lin e was cut back when the government was sayin g two years prior that they were committed to inc reasing the literacy levels. Mr. Speaker, that is a conflict, to be able to say one thing and to do something else. They talk a fine lin e. I kn ow the member for Osborne (Ms. McConnick) mentioned, in tenns of saying one thing and doing another, that that is something this government has, on more than one occasion, done. Yesterday I made the suggestion in tenns of what was happen ing in the province of New Brunswick.

The Mi nister of Ed ucation (Mr. Manness) said, we have a wonderful model in the province of Manitoba, that other prov inces are in fact followin g our model. I am curious if the Minister of Educ ation would be able to tell us what other provin ces are adopting the model that this minister or the minister prior to him has put into place. Now he says that they are interested. There is a big difference, Mr. Speaker, if they are saying they are interested or they are following. I have a video of the New Bruns wick literacy program and had the opportunity to watch it.

I encourage the Min ister of Education to look at what they are doin g in the Province of New Bru nswick, where they are getting the private sector in volved, wher e they are getting the community involved. If you are going to raise the level of literacy in the prov in ce of Man itoba yo u have to ackn owledge that the government cannot do it all by itself, that the government does need to get the communities involved. There is nothing wron g using Conservative philosophy, if you will, of getting the private sector involved. There is a wonderful model that is in place that has been very successful.

When New Bru nswick introduced this particular model, they set five-year goals. In the first nine months they exceeded the five-year goal of what - -

- Apri1 27, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 691 months they exceeded the five-year goal of what they expected wouid have been in place or the numbers of individuals participating. If the government was sincere about increasing the level of literacy in the province of Manitoba, why are they not looking at how they can better spend-not incre ase resources necess arily-the money that they are allocating to increasing the level of literacy? The Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Edwards) says, instead they are going to build boot camps. You know, the member for The Maples (Mr.

Kowalski) poses a very good question today in terms of what is this minister doing. There is no recognition in terms of the effectiveness of the boot camps. Why are we not providing some of our individuals literacy and training, as opposed to saying, there is only one thing and it is a boot camp? There are some alternatives where it would be much more creative. I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for the opportunity to speak on the budget and I look forward to the ongoing debate as I am convinced there will be a lot of discussion in the next few months. Mr.

Edward Helwer (Gimli): It is with great pleasure that I rise today and that I have this opportunity to discuss our latest budget. I certainly want to commend our Finance minister, the Honour able Eric Stefanson, and also our past Finance minister, the Honourable Clayton Man ness, for the great job they did in the seven budgets that we have presented now in our term of office. These people plus our Treasury Board people have worked very hard, and they certainly deserve to be recognized for the hard work they have done . Before coming to office in 1988, I heard time and time again, Mr.

Speaker, that we require a government that is going to listen to the people and govern accordingly. An Honourable Member: Have you done that for your constituents? Mr. Helwer: That is right. Therefore, I was honoured to be a part of this government when our latest budget was presented. Our budget is the result of various consultation meetings with the public . Together with the people of Man itoba, we have formed a budget that will address the concerns of many Manitob ans. Our budget provides a good mixture of supply and demand-side economics.

This budget aims to free up the dispos able incomes of consumers, therefore increasing their buying power to enhance the economic activity. On the supply side, this budget allows small business to invest and grow within the marketplace , with the net result being an increase in private sector investment and in jobs. While striving to stimulate the economic growth, our government has managed to achieve an $18 million operating surplus, therefore indicating that the concern for the future is just as important as the present.

Throughout the province people are asking for a fair and level playing field when it comes to taxation. I am proud to state that our government is living up to its commitment to reduce the tax burden for all Manitobans, including business and labour. The following trend will continue in the 1994 fiscal year. The freeze on the payroll tax has continued. No increase in capital tax rat es. No increase in the sales tax. Manitoba has the longest-running tax freeze in the country .

As well as maintaining a tax freeze, this government has provided a budget that includes the tax and investment incentives to stimulate the growth and to provide jobs, real jobs. With the government in the '90s, common sense must pr evail. Our government has proven that common sense will play a role in every financial decision, that we are on the right track towards providing a fair playing field for all businesses to invest and grow . Since taking office in 1988, our government has saved Manitobans millions of dollars in taxes.

Since 1988 , Mani toba income tax changed to accomm odate federal tax reform , saving Manitobans some $52 million annually and the basic income tax reduced from the 54 percent to 52

692 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 27, 1994 percent saving Manitobans another $33 million annually. The provincial sales tax was placed alongside the GST and not hannonized, saving the people of Manitoba another $30 milli on. Payr oll tax exemption from when we first initiated this in 1989 to 1994 went from $100,000 in the first year to $750, 000 in 1994. This is estimated to save Manitobans another $50 million ann ually. (Mrs.

Louise Dacquay, Deputy Spe aker, in the Chair) The 15 percent rese arch and development tax credit is saving an estimated $8 million; an extension of the 10 per cent manuf acturing investment tax credit. Rail way diesel fuel tax was reduced from 12.6 cents a litre to 9.45 cents in 1993, and this budget will realize another 3. 156 cents reduction per litre in that tax. So it is clear that the tax burden on Manitob ans is being redu ced. When we talk about housing, through the construction and renovation industries , it provides thousands of jobs in this province.

As well as providing thousands of jobs, any incentives from the construction industry can satisfy the demands of younger families for suitable housing. This budget addresses these needs by providing a tax credit for the first-time home buyers. A maximum of $2,500 is available for the purch ase of a house or the cons truction of a house of $100,000. A one-year, $10-mill ion program will be pro vided to assist people who want to renovate and upgrade their homes. A $1 ,000 grant is available for structural improvements of homes curre ntly valued up to a maximum of $100,000.

So these two initiatives are estimated to create 600 jobs and give the renovations sector a timely boost. These are real jobs, Madam Deputy Spe aker. When we talk about transpo rtation, with the geographic location of Winnipeg and Manitoba, an enhanced transportation system can better enable us to market our products to the United States and to the rest of Canada. Therefore, our government has taken three steps to build Manitoba as the transportation hub of the country. Our railway diesel fuel will realize a phased reduction of 3 .156 cents per litre this year.

Our truckers will continue to have the second lowest diesel fuel tax rate in the country. •

(1440) A transportation component in the Infrastructure Worlcs Agreement will provide the transportation infrast ructure required to make all regions of Manitoba competitive on the international market. Al so, today the Mi nister of Hi ghw ays and Trans portation (Mr. Fin dlay) announced that the capital budget for the 1994 highways program will be $109 mill ion this year, $11 0 million last year. When you look at the comparison of what it was prior to 1988, the last NDP government had a capital high ways project of $88 mil lion. So we have increased this by over $20 mill ion.

Compare this to Saskatchewan and also to Ontario . Even when the Liberal government was in Ontario prior to the Rae government, the Peterson government, they did little to enhance and improve the highways in Ontario. They raised the taxes and increased their revenue and did little to improve the transportation system. Our government has made great advanc ements in the fiel d of medical reform. Th e prope r initiatives must be taken to ensure that Manitoba continues to have the best health care in the world. Our government has accepted this chal lenge, and it became very evident in the April 20 budget.

The proper leadership and direction is being given in the form of preventive care and reform. Manitobans can rest assured that essential services will always remain a fixture in our system. As well, we will provide service in the most efficient manner poss ible and redirect our resources towards a system that all Manitobans deserve. We will continue a consistent emphasis on commun ity-based care and il lness prevention. Contrary to the opinions of our opposition, he alth care services are not being cut.

Our government is allo cating a larger percentage of our revenue towards heal th care than the NDP government ever did through the '80s, and we did not have to run an operating deficit to do it. - -

- April 27, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 693 When it comes to government living within its means, efficiency becomes the key word. The April 20 budget clearly states that $1. 85 billion will go towards health care, and home care will receive an additional $2.6 million. There will be an establishment of an appeal panel and advisory committee for home care services.

Support services for seniors will be enhanced by $500,000; breast cancer and cervical cancer screening will be enhanced; funding for dialysis treatment will increase by $2.4 million; funding for bone marr ow transplants will increase by $1 .3 million. For the last couple of years, bone marrow transplants can happen right here in Winnipe g. You do not have to go to Vancouver or London, Ontario or Toronto to have a bone marrow transplant. You can have it done right here in Manitoba, thanks to our he alth system in Manitoba. We have noticed the establishment of Manit oba's first lung transplant pilot program .

Pharmaca re will receive an additional $5.6 million. The new Drug Program Inform ation Network will help avoid adverse reactions and overprescribing of medication. The new system will also enable Manitobans to receive Pharmacare benefits as soon as the prescriptions are filled. Community-based mental health services will receive an additional $4.3 million. There will be an increase in the number of adult day care spaces. In my own constituency of Gimli, we find the construction of a $9 million hospital in Stonewall and 20 additional beds to be constructed at the Rosewood Lodge personal care home.

In my home community of Teulon, 27 additional beds will be constructed at the Goodwin Lodge personal care home. So through the efforts of our government, funding has been enhanced for seniors in Stonewall, Teulon, Stony Mountain, Gimli and Matlock. Senior citizens can rest assured that our government will do all it can to make their golden years their greatest years. These are the facts, and I think that the facts speak for themselves. Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish the opposition would stop being dishonest to the public by trying to scare them with half-truths and lies about health care.

During the economic downturns in the past, governments were able to spend money and create jobs by running huge deficits. However, one essential facet of this plan was always overlooked. Once the economy rebounded, governments were supposed to repay the money that they spent by running budget swpluses. When the former government, the NDP, say that they are strong proponents of the Keynesian economics, why did they continue to run large budget deficits during those good years?

When the opposition sit there in opposition and they call for Jobs Funds and budget deficits, you can bet they do not plan to pay this money back. Our opposition does not follow the ideals of the Keynesian economics. They do not believe in this system. In an era when communism is falling throughout the world, Manitoba still has a political party that is convinced it will succeed, and the NDP just do not understand it. Even in the '90s, when the member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie) said, we need some deficits to create some economic development, to create some consumer spending so that our retailers, our manufacturers would have some opportunity to grow, this is why international investors look at our national debt and reconsider investing in Canada. You do not lure investment by running huge deficits to create jobs that last maybe six mont hs. You lure investment by creating a stable economic environment and showing fiscal re sponsibility . Once you create a stable economic environment, investors can better pro ject the return on their investments .

Once people begin to invest heavily in Manitoba we will begin to realize more long term meaningful jobs. There is no self-satisfaction knowing that you have a six-month job that is bought and financed, as an example, by a Japanese lending agency . We need to wolk together as Manitoban s, as a government. We need to strive towards economic stability and success. When the NDP and the

694 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 1994 Liberals say that they will not raise the deficit this only means one thing, they are going to raise taxes. They cannot expect to run all their vast social programs that they talk about with the present revenue s. The only way Manitobans want us to raise revenues is to put peo ple back to worlc where they can start to pay income tax. The key factor that the opposition keeps forgetting is that the days of buying jobs are over. The rest of the country understands this. Why can the opposition not?

We only have to examine the huge debt that the former government accumulated over the '80s to prove that this phil osophy is not sustain able and it wil l not work. As an exampl e of the for mer government, between 1981 and 1988 the direct debt rose from $1. 4 billion in 1981 to $5.2 billion in 1988. On a per capita basis, this represents from $1, 399 in 1981 for every man, woman and child to $4,762 in 1988, an increase of240 percent there in seven years. In 1981, four cents of every dollar raised went towards financing the provincial debt. In 1988, 11 cents of every dollar went towards debt management.

Today, we have continued to worlc on that and knocked that figure down to 10 cen ts, and we are providing a larger percentage of our re venue to social services than the for mer government did. Between 1986 and 1988 when the Leader of the Opposition was the member responsib le for public investment s, five major cotporations were losers . MPIC lost $125 mil lion. Manitoba Hydro lost $60 million. Manitoba Telephone System lost $48 million. Manitoba Development Cotparat ion lost $42 million. Manfor lost $42 million. I am sure that acronym MPX still sends shivers down the back of the fonner government How did Mr.

Doer try to cover all this up? He insisted that since the Ma nitoba Liquor Commission showed $142- million profit that the Crown cotporations were doing just fine when actually they were not. •

(1450) In agricultu re, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta contain some 82 percent of the farmland in the whol e country . Long sunny days and reli able precipitation generally result in a vast arr ay of fall crops on the Manitoba prairies. Amidst a beautiful harvest landscape is the Manit oba farmer. In 1931, we noticed that 33 percent of all Canadians were living on a farm. Today, that number has changed dramatica lly to approximately 5 percent . So as Canada grew since the '30s to a service-oriented society in the '7 0s, we noticed a sig nificant population shift to the urban li festyle.

The enha nc em ent of technol ogy, more productive farm machinery have enabled us to produce more products through less man hours. With the global pressures and inter national subsidies, grain prices have not fared well over the past decade. Of Canada 's farmers, 37 percent supplemented their incomes in 1991 by worlcing off the farm. Canadian farmers average 70 days annually worlcing for other ventures and projects . However, the Manitoba farmer remains driven by the ambition to live out his father 's dream or his par ents ' dream and work the land that he was raised on.

The Manitoba fa rmer does not ask for governments to guarantee them success. They only ask for an equal opport unity to succeed on the op en mar ke t. Approxima tely 10 percent of Canada 's total exports are agricultural products. Since 1988, the country 's agricultural exports rose some 5.5 percent. However, global trade has presented tough challenge s. Canada 's major competing countries such as the United States are keen to shore up their own products and to try to protect their domestic mar kets while gaining access to ours.

The European countries also have subsidiz ed their prod ucers causing neglect of agricultural products on the global marlcet. So the net result of a global subsidy war has been a dramatic drop in prices . Today, we hear time and time again that we are being accused by the Un ited States of dumping wheat on their consumers. The protec tionist stand by our American nei ghbours has made it more difficult for the Manitoba farmer to receive the true values of his worlc. These protectionist views and trade threats from the Americans will not be tol erated.

I will stand 100 percent behind the Manitoba farmer, and I am sure our Minister of Agricul ture (Mr. Eo ns) wil l also. With our - -

- - Apri127, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 695 Minister of Agriculture, I will fight for what the Manitoba farmers will de serve, and that is a fair and accessible market for the products with the net effect- An Honourable Member: Take on the socialist horde s. Mr. Helwer: That is right-being greater exports and more realistic profits- An Honourable Member: Take on the Yan kees while we are at it. Mr. Helwer: That is what I am talking about [intetj ection] That is okay. That is all right. The life of the Manitoba farmer is not an easy one, and they deserve all the support possible.

Between 19 87 and 1991, net incomes of the Manitoba farmers have fallen some 19 percent. No wonder Manitoba farmers cringe when they see the public sector threatening to strike , because their wages have been frozen or reduced. While the national farm cash receipts rose by 2.2 percent in 1993, Manitoba farm cash receipts rose 8.6 percent. This represents the largest increase in the coun try , with operating costs only being-[int etjection] That is right. [intetjection] Manitoba cash farm receipts rose 8.6 percent in '93, the largest increase in the country.

Manitoba farmers are the most efficient and have worked so hard-[inter jection] That is right-so while operating costs have also increased, we still realize that 30 percent net gain in cash income . This increase in cash receipts was primarily due to three sectors. As a result of some of the flood damage in the United States and our wet summ er on the Prairies, prices for canola were high, and receipts increased some 28 percent. This increase was preceded by an increase of 43 percent in 1992 and 30 percent in '91, so oilseeds have made up a large part of this. An Honourable Member: Another Cindere lla story. Mr.

Helwer: That is right, but the average price for cattle was up 10 to 16 percent, depen ding on the cate gory, and as a result, cattle receipts were up a total of 7 percent. Ftnally, we realized an increase also, 13 percent increase , in hog receipts . Accompanying these sectors were a moderate increase in the smaller crops such as potatoes, barley , oats, and we realized a net gain in cash receipts in the agricultural sector. [intetj ection] Actually, pretty good. Well , actually, while you mention that, I want to talk about the safety net program, such as GRIP and crop insurance .

These have really helped the Manitoba farmers in light of the poor growing conditions last yea r because of the weather conditions, the flooding, but because of the safety net program, we have kept the Manitoba farmers in business. They have been able to pay their bills to the suppliers, to the agri-sector. This kept the country together and kept the money rolling and kept everybody in business so that we are there, we will be there, the agricultural sector and the agribusiness sector will be there when times improve .

Surely this year the weather conditions will improve, and we hope that a good crop will prevail and we will all be happy. Also, the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Cotporation has made some great improvements to ensure that we do not erode the foundation of the successf ul family farm. MACC has taken the initiative to reward the success ful farm and enable the agricultural sector to grow on this success . We will ensure that the family farm will remain the cornerstone of rural Manitoba.

The extension of GRIP is an exc ellent exa mple of ho w our government will continue to provide the assurance to farmers as they begin seeding in the coming wee ks. As always, small business is the greatest creator of jobs in the economy. With previous budgets we have taken steps towards eliminating the payroll tax on jobs. With this budget we are providing the incentive for small businesses to invest and create more jobs in Manitoba. We have enacted the following measures and our government has doubled the small business capital tax exemption to $2 million.

Theref ore, 600 additional businesses will no longer have to pay this tax. The small business cotporate income tax rate will be cut from

696 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri127, 1994 10 percent to 9.5 percent for 1994 and 9 percent in 1995. We will continue to provide the leadership to small businesses by reducing their restrictions on growth and enabling them to create meaningful jobs in the econom y. The people of Manitoba need to be assured of the self-reliance and not dependence on the government for funding. The budget takes the initial steps required to move towards a social structure which rewards people for their success and provides the initiative to give all the people an equal opportunity.

The Departments of Family Services, and Education and Training are allocating a fe w million dollars towards civic projects which will take people from food banks to the chartered banks.

In additi on, we will continue to work in a trila teral approach with the Gty of Winnipe g and the fe deral government in a $1 0-million Welfare to Work initiative under the Infrastructure Works Agree ment Other successful programs such as Caree rStart, Partners with Youth, REDI program-youth programs will be sustained and continue to provide our youth with the guidance required as we head into the increasingly competitive global econom y.

Our government is also committed to provide the training where it is required the most. • (15 00) The community college budget will receive an increase of 3.3 percent to build on their success and enhanced technical and vocational training. The commun ity colleges will train people for future- oriented growth jobs. When investors come to Manitoba they need to know that we have a technol ogy, advanced labour force that can work in a future-orie nted industry . Technology is the future, and we will become more technologically adv anced.

In order to provide a strong future for our children, our government is committed to rural development. Under the Ru ral Economic Development Initiative , REDI, rural programs are able to redirect a portion of lottery revenues into rural Manitoba to encourage and support economic development These funds are available to regional governments and various organizations. Just the other day in the Selkirk Journal it talked about what the R.M. of St. Andrews received from the lotteries funds . An Honourable Member: What did they receive? Mr.

Helwer: They received $58 mill ion last year from VL T re ven ues, and this year that will be increased to $97 million. This will help the Rural Municipality of St. Andrews balance their budget and do some of the good things that they are doing. While I am on that topic of how Lotteries do good work, in the Selkirk Ente iprise also was an ad "Manitoba Lotteries, making good things happe n." They talk about the jobs that are created by Black Cat Blades and the impr ovements that we have made to the St. Andrews, St. Clements and Selkirk Agricultural Society so that they could build the grandstand in Selkirk Park.

There have been a lot of improvements made from the Lotteries funds. Through sale of the Grow Bonds we have been able to harness investment in rural Manitoba, unlike the former administration who believed the only way to create jobs in rural areas was to buy them with publi c funds. We believe in assisting the private sector in providing the long-t erm sustainable jobs. Ten Grow Bond issues have been issued to date in Manitoba totalling $3.4 million and generating $125 million in total investment as well as creating some 225 jobs in rural Manitoba .

This onl y proves that rural Manitoba will support rural ideas, and the private sector can create many jobs under the right leadership. You create jobs in rural Manitoba by working closely and listening to small businesse s. A prime example of the success through Grow Bonds is the recent announcement that Arborg Interlake Dehyd Products is moving closer to the establishment of a world-class processing facility . At this point, financing arrangements are being made and the approval for a Grow Bond sale is expected shortly. Sterli ng Press in Selkirk is another example of a successful Grow Bo nd initiative.

Through an initial investment of $430,000 on the part of Sterling Press, they will be constructing retail packaging and provide 18 jobs in the Selkirk and St. Andrews community. - -

- April 27, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSHMBLY OF MANITOBA 697 I know that the provision of a stable economic environment can create jobs in rural Mani toba. Within one town in my constituency we have witnessed the issue of 154 new building permits for the construction of new home s. What prompted this boom? All that was required was a low tax rate , a low crime rate and the facilities to carry out a nonnal, active life. So I believe that we will begin to notice success stories, like we have seen in Stonewall, throughout Manitoba in the near fu ture .

With the infrastructure initiatives such as the gasification, we will begin to provide the infrastructure required for businesses to invest in rural Manitoba. Selkirlc can be viewed as another example of how we can use private -sector initiatives to promote rural growth. We already touched base on this when I discussed Sterling Press. The economic outlook in Selkirlc is so bright that the introduction of the budget even won praise from the NDP MLA Greg Dewar from Selkirk. An Honourable Member: No kidding. Mr. Helwer: Sure. Here is the April 25th copy of the Selkirlc Journal.

It says, Dewar gives muted praise to provincial budget. That is right. It said, Dewar gives muted praise to provincial budget. This is the Selkirk MLA praising the Manitoba government. However, Mr. Dewar goes on to state that we continue to raise taxes in other ways. Mr. Dewar should listen to the words of the Selkirk Chamber of Commerce president, where he also says in the same paper, stated in the same

article , that I think that is bull in reganl to the words of Greg Dewar. The Filmon government has been holding the line , but it is the fe deral Liberal government that has not, they state. The NDP are just blowing smoke when they criticize the Filmon government 's finances. When it comes to rural development, Mr. Dewar raised his head again as the NDP critic to Lotteries . He reiterates that the Conservatives are increasing their reliance on gaming reven ues. Well, let us take a look and see what the Lotteries have done for the town of Selkirlc and for Manitoba.

Last year $140 million went into Manitoba with health care, and when we just look at, again, that same Selkirlc Journal, they talk about what it has done there with the Black Cat Blades, a grandstand for the patk. there, and things of that nature . Black Cat Blades, while I am on that, is a company from Edmonton which recently inve sted over $1 million towanl the construction of a new plant in Selkirlc.

As a result of the rural economic development initiative , RED!, co-ordinated by the Province of Manitoba's Department of Rural Development, we notice the manuf acturer is going to provide 35 jobs with this plant, which is just north of the town of Se1kirk. Also, a new grandstand there , as I talked about, for the rodeo exhibition parlc, which will increase seating by 2,500- An Honourable Member: Is that also in the Gimli constituency? Mr. Helwer: No, this is in the town of Selkirk, actu ally. But that is all right. This is the Selkirk-St. Andrews-St.

Clements agricul tural society that gets the ben efits. [interjection] Good point. We should re memb er the work on the bridge at Lockport there that brought the two constitue ncies, Selkirk and Lac du Bonnet, and the Springfield constituency together -[intetjection] That is right, with the Red River there. That problem was solved by our Department of Highways minister. Should we talk about our other bridge there? An Honourable Member: The bridge to the North. Mr. Helwer: The bridge to the North. Actu ally, it is called sometimes the bridge to nowhere , but that is not necessarily right, actually.

There is a lot of traffic that goes on that bridge from Highway 59 over to the McPhillips acce ss route into Winnipe g, and it is used quite exte nsively now. Of course, it was our government that built the access roads to the bridge so that we could use the bridge . They forgot about that. They built the bridge, but forgot the access roads. So I just want to make the opposition aware that if they- • (15 10)

698 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 1994 An Honourable Member: Do not for get about all the infrastructure we are doing in St. Clements and St. Andrews. Mr. Helwer: Oh, that is right. I talked about that when I spoke in the throne speech. I talked about the good things that we are doing with the infrastructure such as the industrial park there, the new chem othempy- An Honourable Member: Otemot herapy unit. Mr. Helwer: That is right, in Selkirk. That is right. An Honourable Member: The new mental health team . Mr. Helwer: The new mental health team, that is right; a new lagoon in St.

Andrews there ; a new lagoon there in St. Clements. That is right. These are all going to provide jobs for contmctors in Manitoba and jobs for Manitobans, and these are real jobs, these are not- An Honourable Member: The rolling mill with free tmde. Mr. Helwer: Well, Manitoba Rolling Mill is doing very well. They are one of the largest users of electricity. An Honourable Member: Is he going to vote against the electricity sales tax? Mr. Helwer: That is right. Can the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) vote against this budget?

The Manitoba Rolling Mill is going to be one of the largest benef actors of our sales tax on Manitoba Hydro use for the manuf acturing and processing industries when the Manitoba Rolling Mill is one of the largest users of electrici ty. Madam Deputy Speaker, in conclusion I just want to make the opposition aware of what they will be voting against if they vote against this budget. The opposition will be voting against the transf er towards a fair and compe titive tax structure.

We have to make changes to ensure that no sector of society is overburdened by taxe s. 1bis budget takes significant strides towards achieving a more equitable tax system. The opposition must realize that a tax on busine ss is also a tax on the poor, who need to purchase the products they produce. There f ore , equality becomes the key word. If the opposition votes against this budget, they will be voting against health care ref orm and the tmnsition towards a better, more efficient system that will ensure we provide these essential services for genemtions to come.

If the opposition does not believe me, let me remind them what this budget does for health care: $1 .85 billion allocated to health care; Home Care receives another $2.6 million; Support Services to Seniors incre ased by $500,0 00; regulated midwifery will be introduced; enhanced breas t and cervical cancer programs; $2.4 million increase in fu nding for dialysis treatment; a $1 .3 million increase for bone marrow transplants; Manitoba's first lung transplant pilot program; a new Drug Program Inf ormation Network; community-based mental health services provided an additional $4.3 mil lion; and adu lt dayca re spaces will be enhanced.

How can the opposition say we have not done anything fo r health care in this province when we have reform ed the system and made all these things available for Manitobans? Who in their right mind would vote against all this? Only a power-hungry, self-satisfying opposition who likes to feed the public with half truths and lies. If the NDP and the Liberals are-my time is up, Madam Depu ty Speaker? Okay. We ll, I appreciate the opportunity to speak on the budget. Thank you. Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Deputy Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to participate in the Budget Debate, because this is a debate that deals not only with a budget document but the overall economic policies of a government and also the policies in terms of priorities in the way in which not only revenue is raised in this province but in which expendi tures are divided up. In my speech today I want to deal with I think some of the amazing comments that have been put on the record by government members on this particular budget. When I say amazing I do not mean that as a complime nt.

I want to deal with it both in terms of this kind of global picture that some of the MLAs have tried to put forward. What is probably more important from my perspective is how it is going to impact on this province and, - -

- April 27, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 699 particularly , on the eight communities I represent from the Thompson constituen cy. I have to start with the global perspe ctive, because I think the government is suffering from what I would call the Davos syndrome-Davos, Switzerland, Madam Deputy Speaker. We have heard much about it in this particular session of the Legislature, this great experience that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) had by going to Davos, Switzerland, and the Minister of Fmance (Mr. Stefanson).

We have he ard repeated ref erences both in the Premie r's throne speech comments and the ref erence s of the Minister of Fmance in terms of Davos, Switzerland and the World Economic Forum. Not only that, it has even gotten as far as an

article that I recently came across from the Uniter, the University of Winnipeg student association newspa per. Coffee talk with Gary Filmon is the title . Once again when the Premier was asked by an individu al, talking about the perspective of what they would ask if they were twenty-two years old, had just graduated from the U of W and run into the Leader-and they asked the same question of the other two Leaders. Basically, the question asked was why there are now less jobs in Manitoba than when this government took office.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the First Minister immedi ately jumped into Davos, Switzerland, and there are all sorts of references here . What I find amazing is, I really wonder -! wo uld have thou ght, given the amoun t of travelling the Premier has done , that he might have learned a bit about international politics, because the First Minister and then the former Finance minister came into this House and said, oh, well, all these western Europe an lead ers, these Social Democr atic leaders, are saying that social democracy is dead. An Honourable Member: I did not say that. Mr.

Ashton: We ll, the Minister of Finance says that he did not say that. An Honourable Member: I have said it many other times. Mr. Ashton: He has said it many other times. Well, I would think that is splitting hairs, but I would just go to April l9 , 1994, and the First Minister: "I will talk, for instance, about the experiences of listening to people from Euro pe." This is Davos, Switzerland, you know, the leaders, Madam Deputy Speaker. The First Minister talked about the examples of Sweden and the examples of Germany. I quote here, he said: I am not talking about the Zhirinovskys of the world.

I am talking about the Social Democrats, and what they are saying at the world forums today. Well, what Social Democ rats was he talking about? Carl Bildt, the Prime Minister of Sweden. Madam Deputy Speaker, Sweden does not have a Soc ial Demo cratic government. The Soc ial Democratic party is in opposition. Carl Bildt is not a Social Democrat. An Honourable Member: What is he? Mr. Ashton: We ll, the government is a center right coalition, to the Minister of Finance , who perhaps did not bother to check that. Madam Deputy Spe aker, who else did the Premier (Mr. Filmon) quote in this particular speech?

He talked about Germany, and he says it even here in the coffe e talk with Gary Filmon -Helmut Kohl talking about predictions of 1 percent growth. Helmut Kohl is not a Social Democ rat; Helmut Kohl is a right-winger. Apart from the Willie Brandt and the Helmut Schmidt government, for the majority of the post-war period, the 1940s, the 1950s, into the 1960s, and since the election of Helmut Kohl, then West Germany and current united Germany has had a right-wing government, a Christian Democratic government. You know, the Pre mier even talked about a minister from France.

France , for the information of the Fli'St Minister, once again-in case the First Minister did not bother to check it, Davos, Switzer land has a right-wing government. There were just recent elections that took place . So the ones who are criticizing social democracy are those of the same political ilk of this particular government.

700 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri127, 1994 You know what I find interesting, Madam Deputy Speaker, is what is happening in Europe, if one would care to look. I will take the examples of the parties that were ref erenced. In Germany, they definitely have problems. They have problem s that have resulted from the bringing in of East Gennany into the West Gennan system . It was the right-wing government that said they would face no difficulties in doing that. The Social Democrats took the position of saying they would. The end result has been serious economic difficulties.

They are facing very little, if any, growth in that particul ar country. If one cares to check, Madam Deputy Speaker, everyone is predicting that the Social Democrats are going to win the next election. It is the same thing in Sweden. Sweden will be having an election this year, and everyone is predicti ng, once again, that the Social Democrats are going to win. Madam Deputy Speaker, I could talk about Great Britain, where the Labour Party is running well ahead of the Conse rvatives. I could talk about the recent re-election of a socialist government in Greece.

But, you know, someone should talk about what is going on in Europe to these members because I think we should ask for our money back. They go to a conference, they listen to right wing politicians speak, they come back, and the Premier says all these Social Democrats are saying this. You know, right-wing governments say the same things pretty well in Europe as they do in North America, as do Social Democrats, as do Liberals, Madam Deputy Speaker. It has not changed.

What I want to say to these members, if they want to take these big international examples, they should look at the fact that in virtually every country, including countries in eastern Europe, an interesting thing has happened. • (15 20) Where communist systems have collapsed, what has happened is, those countries are increasingly looking at a mixed system, not a wholesale move toward raw capitalism, but what is essentially a Social Democratic approach of a mixed econom y. That is what is happening in eastern Europe . It is also happening in many other countries across the world.

You know what is happening is, the decade of the 1970s and 1980s, the Thatcher decade , the Reagan de cade , those years are gone. They are gone, and you can see the results in tenns of the electoral process in many different countries. But, let us take Canada, for example . What I find interesting, Madam Deputy Speaker, is essentially, there is only, what I would say, one government left that is practising the sort of the more , well, for now, milder version of the Reagan-Thatcher type of economic agenda, and it is this government in Mani toba.

I say that beca use the Alberta government has gone headlong into a Refonn Party agenda. I think one would be hard pressed to find anyone who would really seriously call the government of Alberta now a Progressive Conservative government in the traditional sense . So there is essentially only one government left in this country that is practising this so-called oxym oron of Progre ssive Conservative government that for years was waving around the examples of Ronald Reagan and George Bush and Margaret Thatcher. That is what has happened in, not only the world, but in tenns of Canada.

In fact, if one looks at provincial governments in Canada, they are either NDP or Liberal governments. This government is essentially the only government that is left. I find it amazing, Madam Deputy Speaker, that this government now would try and run around and use this Davos, Switzerland, example , to use the words of, many of them , soon-to-be defeated right-wing prime mi nisters from European countries to somehow bolster the final true Progressive Conservative government in this country.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I know that they face the next period of time with some trepidation, because the fact is the Conservative Party has not done well at the provincial level, largely-1 want to get to that because that great sort of experiment of the 19 80s, this unfettered right-wing Reaganomics-Margaret Thatcher type of agenda, it is just not working. It is just not working, and people are turning to other approaches. Well , let us deal with it. - -

April 27, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 701 What is the esse nce of a Conservative government philosophy here in Manitoba? What is, Madam Deputy Speaker, the bottom line? Let us take 1988 to 1994. You know , this government first came in as a minority government, then as a majority . There is some question as to whether they really have an effective majority anymore. We will be seeing in the next few weeks just how much of a majority government they really are. But I still remember the words of the Premier (Mr.

Film on) on the night of the election in 1990: a Tory is a Tory is a Tory; a majority is a majority is a majority. For at least four of those six years, they have had the opportunity to treat Manitoba as something of an experiment to try out their economic polici es, their economic philosop hies. What are the elements that go into that particular philosophy? Well, one of them is in terms of cost factors, as they deal with. The minimum wage is probably the best barometer. The government has control over the minimum wage.

When this government came to office in 1988, this government inherited the highest minimum wage in Canada. Since that time we have slipped to sixth. There has been only one increase in the minimum wage. Now, that has had an immediate impact on the social side. Our rate of poverty has increased from 13 to approx imately 17 percent, using the low-income cut-off figures from the Stats Canada figures that are available, far more than in other provinces where minimum wages have been maintained. So they have tried that appro ach. They also brought in cuts to essential services, and let us not kid ourselves.

You know , when the Premier (Mr. Fllmon) talks philosophically about social programs, I want to say what he is saying, what he said in a recent interview. He is saying that, and he is talking about the Europeans looking at dismantling all sorts of social programs, and some of the candidates presuma bly looking at including all sor ts of pen sion and benefit progr ams. If people want to focus on keeping the program systems that have shown to be unsuccessful in Europe they will have to change those systems, to cut those systems, that is essentially what the Premier is going to argue.

That has been part of this government 's approach, and I will deal with that, because it has been clear in terms of health care, and it has been clear in terms of education, and it has been clear in terms of other services. This government has tried to bring down the type , the level of services available to Manitobans. Madam Deputy Speaker, there is a third part of the Conservative approach, again, and it was tried in the United States, and it was tried in Great Britain, and they like to mask it in terms of the kind of statements that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) made in the budget.

It is ver y inter esting, because the Conservatives like to pretend that they have not increase d personal taxes. Oh, you know , that is not true and I will demonstrate that today. But what they do is they make fine sounding statements about no increases in personal taxes when in fact there have been many other incre ases in taxes that affect individu als. But the real Conservative philosophy , as it was in the United States, as it was in Great Britain, has been to lower corporate taxes.

In fact, the main feature of this budget in taxation was in terms of tax breaks for business, a fuel tax break for railways of $4.8 million; small-business income tax of $3.1 million-these are all tax breaks-the manufacturing investment tax, a 3.7 percent cut; the corporate capital tax cut by 1.9 percent; sales tax exemption for mining cut by $8.8 million; and mining tax changes totalling app ro ximately $1 milli on, a total of $23.3 million.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the only sector in this province that received lower taxes is the corporate sector, not just through the taxes this year but through the decreases in the health and education levies-call it the payroll tax, if you want-that the Conservatives have brought in. That is part of their philosophy. It is not one of reducing overall taxes for individuals; it is one that is reducing taxes for business . Well, how does that all fit in together? The same argument that Ronald Reagan used in the United States in the 1980s. The idea of the Conservative philosoph y here was, you cut back on social

702 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 1994 programs, you cut back on the role of govemment, you cut wages, you try to position yourself as a low-cost part of the global economy through those reduced wages , and what you do is provide all sorts of tax incentives-some would call them giveaways-to the corporate sector, and lo and behold, you will get all sorts of additional growth in jobs. You cut taxes.

It is almost the corporate equivalent of what was called the Laffer curve in the United States: You cut taxes, and in fact, spending actually goes up; you get more growth, and overall revenue from taxes goes up. That is the essence of their approach, and I think the current Minister of Education (Mr. Manness) typified that. I know he is one who tends to put his agenda up front. I believe the new Minister of Fmance (Mr. Stefanson) is hiding behind more the PR type of phrases we see in this budget. But you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, they have had six years of govemment.

They have had four ye ars with a majo rity government. Remember, a Tory is a Tory is a Tory. Has [interjection] We ll, right, says the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enos). Has it worked? After six years do we have higher employment in this province than we had in 1988? An Honourable Member: Ye s. Mr. Ashton: Do we have higher employment? Someone questions, maybe we do. Madam Deputy Speaker, employment has dropped. There are fe wer people working today than there were working in 19 88. I know the Conservatives -[inter jection] Well, the member for Interlake (Mr.

Clif Evans) says they have been telling us the opposite , but you know the members opposite : We ll, you cannot judge it just by comparing; when we came into government, there has been a recession, there has been a depre ssion, I think was the word that the Minister of Fmance talked about. Madam Deputy Speaker, there have been all these global events . We ll, let us accept the fact that there has been a global recession or depre ssion. I would question how up front this govemment is in terms of recognizing it. For many years they did not even recognize there was a problem.

I think, if you read every last budget speech from the seven budgets they brought in, it is always coming up roses. It is always, happy days are here again. They get 10 economic statistics. They pick one that might not look all that bad, ignore the other nine and say how great things are going. Let us accept the fact that they have indeed inherited some difficulties, as have all govemments , in terms of the international recession. Well, let us look at it. What about their relative position?

You know, this is the only Conservative govemment-let us include Alberta in a general sense, but this is the only real Conser vative government left outside of the Alberta reform govemment. What is their record in terms of jobs? What is their record now that we are supposedly getting out of the recession? Are we leading the country in terms of employment? Do we have the lowest unemployment rate ? We used to. For most of the 1980s, we were the lowest or the second lowest. •

(1530) For the first three months of this year, we were not the lowest, we were not the second lowest, we were not the third lowest, we were not even the fourth lowest. We were fifth, an unprecedented level, Madam Deputy Speaker. We were fifth, behind every western province and indeed the province of Ontario. We were fifth. So even in relative terms, this govemment is failing. Even that does not account for the fact that there has been net out-migration. Since this government came to office, 47,400 Manitobans have left the province .

There are fe wer people working, and there are 47,400 people that have left the province . Well, the record is not working. Let us put aside the question of jobs. I am not saying it is not the most important issue economical ly, it is, but let us look at other indications. In fact, if anybody wishes, I have available her e a copy of the unemployment rates, Canada and the province s, January to March 1994, which I would like to table for members of the govemment because perhaps they have not received this information yet. That is jobs. Let us deal with other measures. Let us deal with investment.

If this government 's policies were working, you would think that there - -

- April27, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 703 would be some significant improvement in terms of investment. You know, you would think that. They are giving money to the corporate sector. They are keeping wages down. They are stepping up their public-relations efforts to try and make their policies look good, but you know, total capital investment by provin ce. What was the situation, percent change in 1993-94? What was the 8 percent change in Manitoba?-zero. Only Nova Scotia and New Brunswick bad a worse record in terms oflower situations . What has the total capital investment been in this province?

The last time we bad any significant capital investment in this province was 1988, coincide ntally the last ye ar of the NDP government, the transition year. In 19 89, it dropped by .8 percent. In 1990, it rose very slightly by 1.2 percent. In 1991, it dropped by 9.8 percent; 19 92, it dropped by 2.6 percent. It went up somewhat in 1993, 2.4 percent. Now it is zero again, so there is not an increase in terms of investment. Madam Deputy Speaker, is it just the public sector cuts in terms of investment that we are dealing with here? We ll, interestingly enough, no.

It is private capital investment, percent change, 1993-94 again. These are all statistics available from the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics and Stats Canada. Where did Manitoba fall in terms of the percent change ? We bad the worst record in the country, minus 4.8 percent. That is in terms of investment. If one takes it one step forward and looks at growth over this year and the upcoming year, it is intere sting, one looks at the Conference Board of Canada, again, but what we will find-1 mean, is this experiment working?

You will find that we are faced with lower than the Canadian average rates of growth for this year and for the next yea r. In fact, what I find is interesting , the one bright spot in terms of growth is in the utilities section. I just want to read into the record why there is going to be growth in the utilities section: Utilities are forecast to be strong with 11. 4 percent growth. Now I am sure someone on the government 's side is going to try and take credit for that. An Honourable Member: Indeed. Mr. Ashton: Why indeed? Ind eed, the member for Niakwa (Mr.

Reimer) is trying to take credit for it You know why there is an 11. 4 percent increase in the utilities sector? It is because of the NSP power sale that was negotiated by the previous NDP gove rnment when the previous NDP government constructed the Limestone Hydro dam. This is the strongest sector of growth, the utilities sector, because of something that was negotiated and was a deal that was made by the previous NDP government-a deal, by the way, that this pa rty when in opposition, the Conservative Party, disagreed with.

They criticized it, as did the Liberals who called it lemonstone-the member for Lakeside (Mr. Eons), the then-Hydro critic, and the Leader of the Opposition. The only bright spot in terms of si gnificant growth is someth ing they have inherited from the previous government. I ask you, is it working? Let us take another measure. We have talked about jobs. We have talked about investment . We have talke d about growth. In all those areas the province is not even doing as well as the Canadian average in terms of growth and in terms of inve stment.

In terms of unemployment, it is slip ping, ha s slipped significantly . Let us take other issues. Let us look at the fiscal situation this government is in. It is interesting because the Tories like to say that in some way, shape or form they have dealt with the fiscal situation in this province . Madam Deputy Speaker, we have gone through the former Minister of Finance trying to justify what happened in 1988. However the minister wants to analyze who is responsible for what, in 19 88 there was an eff ec tive surplus. But you know what bas happened since then?

Has the deficit been lower than the previous NDP government? Not only bas it not been lower, but in real tenns we have had high deficits, including the highest deficit in the province 's history.

704 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri127, 1994 Madam Deputy Spe aker, it is interesting because the members opposite like to dismiss such criticism from members of the opposition as being just something coming from the NDP, but the former member for Rossmere was the one who pointed out the fact that if you take the real increase of the debt , which is really the measure of the deficit, this government was pedalling a figure of $462 million. It could be argued in fact it was $706 million or even $862 million.

The former member for Rossmere , a former member of the Treasury bench in that government, used those figures. Madam Deputy Speaker, what tends to happen is despite what has happene d, the government then says, well , that was last year, we will wony about it next year. What has their record been in terms of foreca sting on the def icit? Have they been accurate? They have been nowher e close to accurate . We have demonstrated time in and time out just how inaccurate they can be. In the past two years alone , we have seen clear evidence of just how out they are, in excess of a variance of over $30 0 million.

So does anyone believe this government when it forecasts balanced budgets in a couple of years? I remember when the budget was being introduced by the Minister of Finance. I mean, how do you believe a government that has been so inaccurate in terms of its forecasts? The interesting thing again, and we heard lectures from the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Orchard), we heard lectures from the former Minister of Fmance and lectures from the Premier about debt in this provin ce, but this government has been increasing debt.

One of the reasons , it is quite int eresting, public debt has gone up from 1988, $483.7 million to $507 million. But the big increase in the budget has not been in that particular area; it has been because of social allowances. Social allowances have increased from 291.9 in 1988 to 516 .2. The bottom line is, the big problem in this province is in terms of unemployment and in terms of welf are, Madam Deputy Spea ker, so even in some of their arguments what they miss is the fact that even by their own measures they are failing. They are failing in terms of the economics of this province .

Let us look at the impact it is having. I find it interesting that even given that fact that the government members have been coming in here with such glowing spee ches about this particular budget. I mean, what is the good news in this particular budget. I am not saying there are not some initiatives that are not positive in and as of themselves or might be positive if they are implemented properly. I am not saying that I have said that publicly. I do that on every budget. I do not believe in just criticizing a budget whether it is good or not.

In fact, I even voted for one budget brought in by the then-minority government, and members will recall that, in 1989, because on balance it was a good budget and brought in many of the things that we in the New Democratic Party bad talked about. •

(1540) Let us just deal with it in that context, Madam Deputy Speaker, in terms of this particular budget, the fe atures of the budget The home renovation program-! think targeting home renovation is not a bad idea. It is a sector that bas been hard bit. I know in my community there are construction wodcers who have never been unemployed who are currently unempl oyed. You kn ow, I do not agree with a program that says you have to have $5,000 to get $1 ,000 in grant money and does not target particular needs.

I think the government would have been far more effective in being fair to all Manitobans ifit had not had that $5,00 0 ceiling and also if the renovations bad been targeted to such areas as improving the energy effi.ci�ncy in houses rather than just general home renovations. I have said that, and I will say, the concept is not bad, but once again I think the government has shown its lack of fairness in the way it has implemented the particular program. I want to deal now with some of the other initiatives in the budget, some of the tax breaks .

You know, when I was asked about the mining tax breaks by the Thompson Citizen, the local newspaper in Thompson, I said, I want to see the reality of what is happening with the tax breaks -

April27, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 705 because we do need a competitive mining industry. In contrast with the budget document there are tough times in the mining industry. I want to deal with that in the context that one series of announcements that might have been positive , Madam Deputy Speaker, but for the complete lack of understanding of this government of what is going on. Let us deal with what the throne spee ch recorded and what later the budget rec orded in terms of mining.

Let us see what they-W ednesda y, April 20, in terms of mining, in terms of the budget If you were to read this, Madam Deputy Speaker, about our vast and rich mineral deposits being Manito ba's great asset, and if you were to look at this mining claim and all explo rations have increased dramatically, new mines are opening and the potential number of promising sites is encouraging, you would think we are facing boom days in the mining industry . I have news for members opposite . Perhaps they are not aware of this, but we are facing very tough times.

HBM&S in Flin Flon has cut back, downsized by upwards of 500 emplo yees. loco currently is going through its second downsizing in as many ye ars, reducing the employment at loco by 200 jobs. We have had closures of mines in many communities, including Snow Lake and Lynn Lake . It is ironic in many cases that the mines that are talking about opening are mines that will open in comm unities that had the mines closed a couple of ye ars ago. I read with interest the comments about Williams Lake. I happened to be in contact with the company that is doing the exploration there.

They were quite surprised that the minister would be pumping this up as such a great find. It is a great poten tial find, but it is a long wa y from development . It is a long, long wa y from development, and the minister does not do people in the province of Manitoba a favour when he goes and brings up these glowing reports. What is the reality of the mining in dustry, Madam Deputy Spea ker? I talked about employment. It has declined. It is declining now. It is not growing, it is declin ing. Let us talk about the impact in terms of the finances.

To the former Minister of Finance-he would be the one that I am sure would be aware of this-how much money came in from the mining industry last year in tenns of taxes and the previous year and the year before that? How much is projected to come in this time? The bottom line is, this government is projecting zero income from the mining industry in terms of mining royalties and taxes, and I am stating this in terms of those particulars- zero. Is that the booming economy we are talking about in the mining indu stry? No, it is not. So that is what is happening in the reality of the mining industry.

So the new Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Orchard) comes along and says , well, we are going to come up with some tax breaks and that is going to solve the problems of the mining industry. But the minister the other day got up in his usual rhet orical style and said, our membeiS opposite are against jobs because of the fact that- indeed, we will be voting against this budget and specifically target the mining industry .

In my own community there are 200 jobs being eliminated and there have been very extensive negotiations between the United SteelW orkers Local 6166 and the company trying to make sure that there are not actual layoffs. It will be through other means, through attrition, and I am very hopeful that indeed they will result in those 200 positions not being eliminated through dire ct layoffs, but we are faced with that spectre for the first time in Thompson 's history.

Did the minister sit down with the steel workers and with the company and say, we are going to bring in this tax break, do not lay off workers, do not cut the employment at !nco by 200? Did he do that? No. The minister came in and it was a windfall. He talked about the response from the mining industry; he talked about that they said they were getting plums in this budget, Madam Deputy Speaker. Well, of course. I mean, what business person, what peiSon gener ally, is going to say no? You do not look a gift horse in the mouth.

You do not get offered a tax break without saying thank you, but what guarantees does the Minister of

70 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April27, 1994 Energy and Mines have from that particular employer at Inco that there will not be the job cuts? None-two hundred jobs eliminated from the community of Thompson. You know, it is the same thing in tenns of the railway tax. Our critic, our member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) , the critic for Highways and Transportation, the first thing he

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-15
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 15.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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