Manitoba Hansard — 17 May 1994 (Sitting 29, 35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-29

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Sessi on -Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker Vol. XLm No.19 • 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 17,1994 JSSNOS42-S492

NAME ASIITON, Steve BARRE'IT, Becky CARSTAJRS, Sharon CERU.LI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMJNGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER. Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIPDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Geny, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, TlDl, Hon. EVANS,Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FJNDLA Y, Glen, Hon.

FRJESEN, Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and PoUtical Afi'IUation CONS'JTIUENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirlt Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel SLJames Lakeside Charleswood Interlake GAUDRY, Neil GD.LESHAMMBR. Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley SLBoniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gim1i HEL WER, Edward R. HICKES, George KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATID.JN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, TlDl MANNESS, Clayton, Hon.

MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Geny McCORMICK, Noma McCltAJB,James,Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALL ISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, Jolm PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER., Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE. Bob SANTOS, Conra d SCHELLENBERG, Harry S1EFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosano Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas St.

Norbert SLJohn s Elmwood Morris Bwrow s Sturgeon Creek Osborne Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossmere Kirkfield Parle FlinFlon La Verendrye Fort Garry Swan River PARTY. NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP pC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP -

- 17 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 17, 1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS MATTER OF PR nnLEGE Breach of Privilege-Committee of Supply Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leader) : Mr. Speaker, I would rise on a matter of privilege. I stand today to put on the record and seek the advice of the Privileges and Elections Committee in particular on an issue that occurre d last night inside the committee room. According to Beauchesne 's, in order to have a matter of privilege, Mr.

Spea ker, the complaint of breach of privilege must conclude with a motion providing the House with an opportunity to take some action, and I will at the end of my remarlts be making such a motion. The question of privilege must be brought to the attention of the House at the first possible opportunity. Last night it occurred; this is the first opportunity, in fact, that I will have in order to raise this particular issue. Yesterday, in committee, the official opposition moved a motion of closu re, a fonn of a motion of closure, and that concerns me greatly. I look to Beauchesne's Otation No. 1, Mr.

Speak er, and I ask that the New Democrats take this just as seriously as I do.

Beauchesne's Citation No. 1 reads: "The principles of Canadian parliamentary law are: To protect a minority and restrain the improvidence or tyranny of a majority; to secure the transaction of public business in an orderly manner; to enable every Member to expre ss opinions within limits neces sary to preserve decorum and pre vent an unnecessary waste of ti me; to give abundant opportunity for the conside ration of every me asure , and to prevent any legisla tive action being taken upon sudden impulse." I could go on to Otation 3, which in part says: "More tentative are such traditional fe atures as respect for the rights of the minori ty, which precludes a Governm ent from using to excess the extensive powers that it has to limit debate •...

" Last night, Mr. Speaker, and I would ask even members of the New Democratic Party to reflect in terms of what it is that they did. If government moved a motion of closure inside this Ownber, the official opposition would be standing up, and they would be condemning the government for moving such a motion. The New Democrats know full well that is, in fact, what they would do. I would be supporting the New Democratic Party if they jumped up in opposition to the government moving a motion of closure.

The Liberal Party will be consistent inside this Chamber and will fight closu re, whether it is moved by government or whether it is moved by the official opposition. One has to be putting that into a proper perspective when we talk in tenns of the official opposition. •

(1335) The official opposition's role, Mr. Speaker, is to enhance , to encourage, to provide the debate, that there is no place-and I went through Beauchesne's and the rules to find out where it might say that the opposition-o r it is encouraging opposition parties to limit debate on an important issue. To call the question is to, in fact, imply closu re. The NDP House leader knows full well that is the case .

I could go to Be auchesne 's Citation 519: "Oosure is a method of procedure which brings debate to a conclusion and enables the House to secure a dec i sion upon the subj ect under discussion." Last night, the New Dem ocratic Party moved a motion which did not, Mr. Speaker, allow me to be able to, on behalf of the Liberal Party, make it clear in tenns of where we wanted to be able to be on a

1799 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1994 particular vote on an issue. Manitobans have a right to know in terms of where the Liberal Party is at on certain positions or all positions, and I had att empted to ask a couple of questions. Unfor tunately, when it came time for me to indicate to the committee in tenns of where it is that we felt the gove rnment was going wrong and to talk specifically on the motion, the NDP prevented me from being able to say that because they moved that the question now be put.

As I say, what I take most exception to is that if it would have been the government, the NDP would have been with us in opposition, condemning the government for moving a motion of closu re. I am going to ask the govemm ent House leader to be with us in condemning an opposition party, the official opposition party, for moving a motion of closure. I do not know if there is any other opposition party across Canada that bas moved a motion of closure on an Estimates or a government bill. I think that, in itself, warrants this Ownber in terms of looking into it, and at the very le ast, Mr.

Speaker, an apology from the New Democratic Party for not standing up for Manitobans and allowing debate to occur. So I would move, seconded by the member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) 1HA T the motion moved by a member of the official opposition in Committee of Supply calling for the question to be put is a breach of privilege and should be referred to the Committee on Privileges and Elections . Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition Bouse Leader) : Mr. Speake r, a matter of privilege is a serious matter and ought to rarely come up in this House.

We have bad many matters of privilege that have dealt with serious matters related to parliamentary proced ure, but this bas to be one of the weakest matters of privilege I have ever seen brought into this House. Mr. Speaker, it is not only not a matter of privilege in the general sense , it is not even close to a matter of privile ge. In our rules, for the inf ormation of the Liberals who may not be aware of House procedures, closure is listed in terms of our rules, Rule 37. There is also a

section in Beauchesne that ref ers specifically under 519 to closure . The previous question, a motion to put the previous question, bas nothing to do with closure. That is dealt with in 52 1, 522 though to 528 of Beauchesne, and dealt with in a separate

section in tenns of our rules. The Liber als, Mr. Speaker, what I find amazing yestenlay is we found a situation where a motion was moved. The government bad spoken to the motion. We had spoken. The member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) bad also spoken, although I reali ze be was having some dif ficulty in determining his position. We fe lt that it might be advisable for the Liberals, for the three who were present in the House at that point in time, to have that ability to decide their position, and we called for the previous question. I would note, Mr.

Speaker, for the inform ation of the member for In kster, that we are an opposition party. We are all actually in a situation where none of us controls it. We are not the government, yet. We do not have the ability to enforce our will, and, in fact, a vote was taken that ended up with the government siding with the Liberals to continue deba te. In fact, what happened was, we went back into the committee and the member for Inkster, having finally decided his position, put it on the record for five minute s, and we procee ded to have the vote. So the dispute is over whether the member for Inks ter (Mr.

Lamoureux), in his own mind, should have bad the ability to place that on the record for five minutes. I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that it is clearly not only not a matter of privile ge. This matter of privilege is actually out of order because be is questioning a decision that was already taken by the House yesterday . It is also out of order because the Committee of Supply has not reported to this House at this present time.

In fact, it is so far out of order, I consider it an emb arras sment, and I think it is probably more indicative of the fact that the Liberals still do not get it when it comes to the functioning of this House. I really wonder when - -

May 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1800 we are going to see the Liberal Party get its act together. This is not a matter of privilege, Mr. Speaker, and I would urge you to role it completely out of older. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would like to thank both members for their remarks on this matter. Indeed, I will take this matter under advisement, and I will come back to the House with a mling. •

(1340) ROUTENE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Thomps on Gen eial Hospital Patient Care Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of T. Nelcosky , B. Zielke , M.

Ba iros and others requesting the Legislative Assembly to request the government of Manitoba to consider reviewing the impact of reductions in patient care at the Thompson General Hospital with a view towards restoring current levels of patient c are and, further, to ask the provincial government to implement real health care ref oDil, based on full participation of patients , health care providers and the public, respect for the principles of medicare and an understanding of the particular needs of northem Manit oba.

PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITI'EES Committee of Supply Madam Chairperson (Louise Dacquay): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions , directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAl pine), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Standing Committee on Public Accounts Mr. Leonard Ev ans (Ch airperson of the Standing Committee on Public Accoun ts) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Second Report of the Committee on Public Accounts. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

Your Standing Committee on Public Accounts presents the following as its Second Report. Your comm ittee met on Thur sday, May 5 and Monday,May16, 1994, at 10a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider the Provincial Auditor's Report for the year ended March 31, 1993, and Volumes 1, 2 and 3 of the Public Accounts for the year ended March 31, 1993. At those meetings, your committee agreed by unanimous consent to also consider the Provincial Auditor's Report for the year ended March 31, 1992, and Volumes 1, 2 and 3 of the Public Accounts for the year ended March 31, 1992.

Your committee had previously met on Thursday, March 4, 1993, and Thursday, March 18, 1993, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider the aforementioned 1992 reports. Your committee received all information desired by any member from the Minister of Finance, staff from the Department of Finance and Ms. Carol Bel/ringer, Provincial Auditor. Information was provided with respect to the receipts, expenditures and other matters pertaining to the business of the province.

Your committee has considered the Report of the Provincial Auditor for the year ended March 31, 1992, and Volumes 1, 2 and 3 of the Public Accounts for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1992, and has adopted the same as presented. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, I mo ve , seconded by the honourable member for Dauphin (Mr. Ploh man), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABUNG OF REPORTS Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources) : Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the fmancial statements as of March 31, 1993 and 1992, for Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd., together with the Auditor's Report. Hon. Harold Gillesh amm er (Minister of Cultu re, Heritage and Citizenshi p) : Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report,

1801 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1994 1992-93, for Culture, Heritage aod Otizeoship and the Ann ual Rep ort for the Centr e Cultu rel Franco-Manitobain, 1992-93. Bon. Gle n Cummi ngs (Min ister of Environment) : Mr. Speaker, I would like to table Supplement ary Information for the Manitoba Department of Environment. Bon. BoDDie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege to table the Supplementary Information for Legis lative Review for Estimates for the Department of Family Serv ices. INTRODUCTION OF Bll..LS Bili3�An Act to amend

an Act to continue Brandon University Foundation Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East) : Mr. Spea ker, I move, seconded by the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), that leave be given to introduce Bill 300,

An Act to amend

an Act to continue Brandon Univ ers ity Foundation; Loi modifiant Ia Loi proro geant Ia Fondation de 1 'Universit� de Brandon, and that the same now be received aod read a first time. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the atte ntion of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us today Her Excellency Sandra Fuente s-B erain, the Ambassador of Mexico. On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. •

(1345) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Youth Court Backlog Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we have been raising a number of questions to the government about the backlog in the juvenile justice system. The minister has denied there has bee n a problem . One of the areas that we believe is contributing to the backlog is the huge numbers of cases that probation off icers are having dealing with predisposition rep orts, the PDRs.

We have been informed that in one district alone in the city of Winnipe g, there is presently 173 cases pending for PDRs to be conducted on youths before the justice system , and 59 of those are presently in custody. I would like to know from the minister, how great a difficulty is the justice system having in dealing with the backlog on the basis of predisposition reports? What impact is that having on the waiting period of time which is well documented in the community for kids awaiting trial? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Att orney General): Mr.

Speaker, as I have said in the House before, we are always trying to do bette r in the courts. We are always trying to improve the length of time it takes, but as the honourable member knows, in bringing cases forward before the court, yes, there are certain thin gs. There has to be repres entation for the accused, as well as the Crown cases have to be prepared. So I will say to him again, as I said last week, we have been able to make an impact in the youth violence court to reduce a backlog or a time to have a case come to court from seven months to five months.

We continually attempt to work to reduce any backlog, Mr. Speaker. I can tell the member, as well, that in any effort we make to red uce a bac klog, we do so systemically. We look at all parts and all functions, and I am worlcing very closely with the chief judge and mem bers of my department to reduce the backlog further. Mr. Doer: We are further informed that probation staf f are being re assigned to dea l wit h the predisposition reports, and supervision will have to be suspended.

In other words, kids placed on probation are no longer going to get supervision from probation officers as a disposition from the court, because the probation staff are now trying to deal with the backlog of predisposition reports. -

May 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1802 I would like to ask the minister , if she is indeed taking a systemic review, what impact will this· have on supervision of youth who are disposed of in the court, under probation, given the fact that probation. supervision has about an 80 percent success rate, and to take away that supervision and to move it somewhere el se, will it have a negative impact on the youth justice system in Manitoba? Mrs. Vodrey : Mr.

Speaker, I can tell the member that the whole issue of probation in the area of youth, as he specifically wants to speak about, is a very important part. We are looking in the whole area of Corrections-youth Corrections and the Community Corrections area to make sure that the probation and that the fo llow-up for young people is as strong a fol low-up as it can be.

I have been working with the Corre ctions department to look at ensuring that we have staff to enable that fo llow-up to be successful and to assist the young person, because we reco gnize that young people do have to be reinte grated into the community, that young people do have the goal of returning to communitie s, and we want them, in fact, to become participating citizens. • (135 0) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I will read from this memo: If we carry this backlog over to the summer holiday and have a seven -day layof f period, supe rvision will have to be suspended.

That is in one of her own probation districts in the city of Winnipeg dealing with a huge backlog of cases before the court. I would ask the minister to find out what is really going on in her department, find out what is really going on with youth bef ore the cour ts and probation, and how can we have a program dealing with supervision of kids that are on probation suspended while we are trying to deal with the backlog in the courts, Mr. Speaker, in tenns of having a systemic app roach to this probl em?

Surely, by taking flat resources that the government has provided over the last two years, by moving from one resource, supervision, to another resource, court rep orts, Mr. Speaker, are we not just causing greater difficulty for kids in supervision in the community, and does this not wor k against consequences and work against supervisi on in our community? Mrs. Vodrey : Mr. Speaker, let me deal with two parts to the question.

The first is the member is speaking about a backlog in the courts, and I have explained to him that we have been working very diligently to reduce a backl og, that we are now in the range of five months for young people . I will remind him that appearance in court is part of a due process of law. Cases have to be prepared, and young people will not be ap pe aring , as a consequence , to be sentenced on the very next day, but as the member knows , there certainly is an appearance in court, and that is a consequence which does occur immediately.

The member should not attempt to suggest that this does not occur, because it does. Mr. Speaker, the second area that the member has raised -and I would like to take the opportunity to respond to him because he has attempted to mix two areas together. I would like to say to him we are looking at the issue of the time to process throu gh the co urt, and we are also looking at probation support for young people who receive a sentence in probation.

I have explained to him how diligently we have been working to organize in the area of Corrections to provide that fo llow-up, to ensure that young people have that fo llow-up, because we recognize that they have the need to reintegrate into the communi ty. Just two very quick other poiDts, Mr. Speaker, and that is, we know that when the court backlog was examined by the Supreme Court in the Askov case, they pointed to Manitoba- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . ACCESS Prog rams Meeting Request Mr . George Hickes (Point Doug las): Mr. Speaker, my que stion is for the Minister of Education and Training.

The minister has indicated to this House and to students that the cuts that his government has made

1803 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1994 to the ACCESS programs in this province were made on the basis of fairness, but when the ACCESS program was initiated by the New Democratic Party, it was recognized that there is a systemic unfairness that exists in our education system. There was a recogn ition that there are . many inherent barriers, includ ing financial barriers, which pr event Manitob ans from accessing higher education. For an example, single pare nts have to do their upgrading, do their studying and have to raise their families, and now, they are expected to work part time.

I would like to ask the minister if he thinks that it is fair �o poor students to once again face these barriers in their pursuit of education, and will the minister meet with the ACCESS students to explain this so-called fairness? Bon. Clayton Maaness (Minister of Education and Trainin g): Mr. Speaker, last night in committee, there was quite a debate with respect to ACCESS. At that time I indicated, and I will reiterate again at this time, that this government is in strong support of the program.

As a matter of fac t, ov er seve n bud gets now, we have put additional res ources in for the most part, certainly ove r the first number of years, accepting the federal offioading for the very same reasons as put forward by the member for Point Douglas. We un derst an d the benefits of ACC ESS prog ram s. We und erstand bow it is that opportunity is presented to those individuals in our society who may not have bad the opp ortunities to be formally trained in some of the course offerings. So, Mr. Speaker, we understand it, and we have made commitments.

The changes that are included in this year's budget provide for great er numbers of intake, and yet it is fair on the basis that it expects, requires, some indebtedn ess of those people, given the fact that they will have some certainty of employment upon graduation. •

(1355) Funding Reduction Justification Mr. George Bickes (Point Douglas) : Mr. Speaker, many people do not agree with the Minister of Education. I would like to table some letters indicating this. Recent developments in the area of aboriginal self-gov ernm ent have us moving forward rapidly towards the dismantling of the federal Department of Indian Affairs. Why is the provincial Conservative government taking such a regressive and backward move in decreasing the potential for aboriginal students to access higher education?

Does the minister not realize that these students are the future leaders in the operation of aboriginal self-government? Bon. Clayton Maaness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, it is because we fully reali ze that fact that we have ma de the commitments over the years that we have. As I pointed out last night in debate, this program has been in existence roughly for 10 or 11 ye ars, and, Mr. Speaker, there is not one government program indeed that should not have some scrutiny presented to it, some evalua tion to determine the effectiv eness.

As indicated by members last night across the way, what they are calling upon is purely this, that more money be dire cted into a program and indeed no changes be made. I say changes have to be made from time to time in programs to allow greater fairness. As I said yestenlay on the record, there are some who are in that program, and it calls into question-not all, Mr. Speaker, not even the vast majority, but there are some reasons that crite ria should be changed, and they were put onto the record last night. Mr. Bickes: Mr.

Speaker, it is pretty scary, because I think the minister really believes what he is saying. My final question is to the same minister. Ca n the Mi nister of Educ ation define his definition of fairness to ACCESS students such as single parents who are midway through their program and will be unable to graduate because of the added strain of finding part-time work while they go to school and raise a family? Is that fairness? -

- May 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 04 Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, it should be pointed out that when individuals are accepted into the program, indeed when individuals come within the student financial loans program, it is understood that government policy can change from year to year. That is made known to every app licant at the time of acceptance for whatever support is in place. Mr. Speaker, it is within the mandate of the government to change policy after careful review, after careful consideration, after careful analy sis.

All of those factors have been brought to bear with respect to this year's decision. Retail Sales Tax Information Letter Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Sec ond Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, yesterday and today, over 34,000 businesses in Manitoba are receiving their regular monthly retail sales tax forms. The only thing that is different this month is that included in that normal mailing was a letter signed by the Minister of Finance, which I want to table. That letter does not give any inf ormation about changes in the system .

In fact, nowhere in that letter does it mention any inf ormation about filling out the forms . Instead, this letter represents a public relations piece of work by the Minister of Finance, and I just want to quote in part, because you will recognize the words: Our fiscally responsible efforts are paying dividends, and we are not the only ones to say so. In fact, the Dominion Bond Rating Service cited-blah, blab, blab. I am confident that we are on the right track towards a bright economic future- [inte ijection] And Mr. Spe aker-and concludes with a fact sheet.

I believe this is clearly outlined in the attached fact sheets on our recent budget Signed, Eric Stefanson. Mr. Spea ker, is this the kind of blata nt poli ticization of civil service normal mailings that Manitobans can expect in this pre-election period? Is this going to be in the MTS billings and the Hydro billings-no asking for inf ormation, no giving of inf ormation, straight public re lations propaganda from a desperate government in a despe rate time. • (1 400 ) Bon. Eric Stef anso n (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, I am amazed by the type of question, the tone of question coming from the Leader of the second opposition party, who can look no further than his own track record in terms of distribution and mailing records of some 80,000 pieces of literature. Anybody who looks at the document that the Leader of the second opp osition par ty, of the Liberal Party, bas tabled, it is an introductory letter to a series of changes that have taken place as a result of our budget. Points of Order Mr. Edwards: Mr.

Speaker, everything that bas been sent out, and I take responsibility for it, what the minister bas said, everything that bas been sent out bas asked for information, every singl t-- Mr. Speaker: Order , please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. • •• Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I do believe the Minister of Finance was indicating the fact that the Liberal Leader bad single-bandedly blown the LAMC budget by mailing out 80, 000 letters across the province at rand om. Mr. Speaker: What is your point of order?

You do not have a point of order, that is for sure . ••• Mr. Speaker: The honour able Minister of Finance, to finish with his response. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker : Orde r, please. The honourable Minister of Finance does have the floor. Mr. Stefanson : Mr. Speak er,just to conclude, I do not know what it is that the Leader of the Liberal Party is concerned about in terms of Manitobans finding out what was in the 1994-95 budget. The fact sheet outlines all of the initiatives that affect business here in Mani toba, something that bas

1805 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1994 been done on many occasions, and from my perspective is inf onnation that business people in Manitoba should know full well. That is all part and parcel of what was distributed to Mani tobans from a budget that is being very well received across this province by Manitobans throughout our entire provi nce. The only people who did not support it are the people in this Clwnber, the Leader of the Liberal Party, and he will live to re gret that. Retail Sales Tax Information Letter Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): The member for Concordia (Mr.

Doer) says you cannot say one thing and do another, and he should consider that in light of the closure motion his party brought last night. Mr. Spea ker, my question for the First Minister-! want to ask him how he reconciles sanctioning this letter going out with the nonnal mailing, given his comment on Friday, May 3, 1985, to the then-minister responsible for MTS in which he said to Mr. Mackling at that time, and I quote: "Indeed it is a poli tical matter, and this is a desperate Minister and a desperate government looking for re-election.

That's the politics of the matte r." That was the Honourable Gary Ftlmon saying that to Mr. Mackling in 1985. What has changed, Mr. Speaker? Why is this government not prepared to live like it said in 19857 Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier) : Mr.

Speake r, real ly, the hypocrisy that is dripping from this memb er's mouth is unbelievable, when you consider that he sent out 80, 000 mailing pieces into every consti tuency that the Liberals did not hold but have a hope , they believe , of winning in the next election-at the expense of the taxpayer of Manitoba, with his picture on it, and he is complaining about somebody using government mailings for partisan purposes . The hypocrisy is unbelievable . He will live to regret that he ever brought this up, as everybody in the province knows what hyp ocrisy comes from his mouth. Mr.

Edwards: The Premier knows all about hypocrisy, Mr. Speaker. What are the rules for politicization of civil service mailings that this government is holding itself to, because in 1985, when the Honourable AI Mackling at that time sent out inf onn ation about CRTC's attempts to regulate MTS, it, in fact, did contain some inf onnation, and he condemned it. Now, nine years later, also leading up to an election, this First Minister puts out this , not ·one iota of requesting information or giving info nnation.

What are the rules by which this government is holding itself to as they send out hundreds of thousands of pieces of mail every month from their various departments? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, this kind of information has gone out to businesses after budgets every year. This is not a new matter. It is not a new matte r. All it is is a new issue for the Leader of the Liberal Party in opp osition, trying to gain some attention for himself. It is a nonsense issue, and the Leader of the Liberal Party has sent out 80, 000 pieces at public expense for his re-election purposes.

He has absolutely no business to raise this in the Legislature. It is nonsense . ACCESS Programs Meeting Request Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson) : Mr. Speaker, yesterday, in the Committee of Supply , there was an unprecedented vote in this House that resulted in the passage of a motion censuring the Minister of Education for cutting ACCESS, while at the same time giving grants to corporations such as IBM, Kentucky Fried Chicken and ·others. It is unprecedented in this House, and it is app ropriate that it came in tenns of the ACCESS pr ograms. Many of the st udents from the Winni peg Education Centre are here today.

I spoke to them earlier. They are saying, as are people in othe r locations, that students will be forced to drop out if these cuts contin ue. I would like to ask the Minister of Education if he will do the right thing, if he will listen to the - --

- May 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1806 vote ye sterday in favour of the motion that censured him and his government for cutting ACCESS. Will be n ow do the decent thing, Mr. Speaker, and put those cuts on bold and meet with the students who are going to be dramatically affected by those cuts? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated last night, I am prepared to table as quickly as possible the inte rnal review, an evaluation and assessment that was done in respect to the program that pointed to some directions of change that the government might consider. Upon doing that, Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to meet with individual ACCESS students to the extent that I have time to do so. But let me point out, when the member talks about these changes , as indicated yesterday in Estimates, there will be an opportunity now for an additional 60 people to be part of that very worthy program. Current Student Status Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson) : Mr. Speaker, the concern is that we may have an ACCESS program in name on ly, and there are students right now whose very future is being affected by this government. Will the minister at least do the decent thing and ensure that those students who are curre ntly in the program are not impacted by the latest change, that they are not forced out of the program by this government's actions? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I am really hoping that the impacts are minimal.

I am hoping nobody is forced out of the program, but in fairne ss to all who receive some level of support from the public purse, there is an ex pectation, and there bas to be a realization, that when people come into these pr ograms, thatgovernment has, attimes, cbanged policy, that budgetary restraints from time to time, budgetary matters, ultimately have the final call from year to year with respect to a policy and a pr ogram. Mr. Speaker, this was to be pointed out to every student that is accepting a loan and/or any student who bas the provincial purse behind them in support of the pr ogram.

So I am hoping and I am expecting that the impact will be minimal, and J am hoping that other arrangements can be made , again, in the sake of fairness. Funding Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson) : Mr. Speaker, there is an irony that so many of the students in the program are aboriginal, because their trust is being betrayed again. I would like to ask the minister, just in fairne ss to the students , when will the minister realize that there is funding available in his own department? The money that went to St.

Jobn' s-Ravenscourt , the money that went to mM, the money that went to Kentucky Fried Chicken, why does be not reallocate that money and e nsure a future for the students in the ACCESS program? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I realize that the member for Thompson dislikes all dimensions of our society who create wealth.

I fully understand that, but I think it is important to realize again, and I say this for the second or third time, that individuals who are receiving support in programs up, to some extent, to the limit, in some cases over four years, of $1 30 ,000, and public support, in some cases in the certificate programs to the level of $60,000, that there be some ex pectation that upon graduation they have some indebtedness and indeed be treated no differently than every other citizen of the provin� who supports , through borrowing of money, a portion of the cost of their post-sec ondary education. •

(1410) ACCESS Pro grams Loan Cap Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolsele y): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education claims that under his new rules, there will be more than 60 students a year in this pr ogram, but be bas no idea, under his rules ,

1807 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1994 how many of those stud ents who are in the program now will have to drop out I want to ask the minister to tell the House what his plans are for the many ACCESS students who have families, whose programs are longer than the normal university year and who, because of the total cap of $20, 000 on Canada student loans, are likely to hit their ceiling a year or more before completing their degree s, or will he tell us what his plans are for students in medicine and deotistty for whom the ann ual cap on loans does not come close to meeting their program costs?

How are these students going to complete their programs? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated last night, we brought in the program that tries to treat everybody on an equi table basis. Those are decisions that are going to have to be made by the individu als, taking into account their specific situations. That is no different than many other people in our society having to choose a time as to what the most important priorities are with respect to their discretionary budgetary matters. Selection Criteria Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolsele y): Mr.

Speaker, will the minister tell the House how he could claim yesteniay that one of his major difficulties with the ACCESS program was the basis of selection-he said there were no criteria-when, in fact. every student must meet the admission requirements of their institution, and every stu dent has two exhaustive interviews with two diffe rent committees on which this minister has direct representation in his department. Bon. Clayton Manne ss (Minister of Education and Training): All I indicated was that there were some inconsis tencies by way of survey that have shown up, Mr.

Speaker, and that will be reflected in the report once it is tabled. Meeting Request Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolsele y): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister, for the sake of all the students in this program, to first of all use some common sense, table the evaluation report he has done, meet with the students so that he can understand the diversity of their conditions in this program, talk to the graduates of the program, go back to the communities from which these students come and to which many of them have returned, and go back again to the begi nning of this ACCESS program. Bon.

Clayton Mann ess (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Spea ker, I have done most of those things as requested by the member, although I have not met with all of the individual ACCESS students , the 700 and some who are in the program today. What the member is basically asking is for us to not only maintain the level of funding, but indeed still reach out to a larger number of people ; in essence , ask for more fundi ng. Even though we might like to do it, the fact is we cann ot.

So what we have tried to do within the very limited amount of resources that ate available, we have tried to effect a de gree of sharing so that more people can find their way into this worthy pr ogram. Berens River Fishing Bound aries Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsl and): Mr. Speaker, my quest ion is for the Minister of Natural Reso urces . As the minister kno ws, northern fishermen are facing very difficult times due to continued low prices and a decision of this government to cut the fisherman freight subsidy pr ogram.

Given that the minister has had representation for some time now from the fishermen in Berens River requesting chang es to their fishing boundary, has the minister made a decision on this matter? Bon. Albert Drie dger (Minister of Natural Resourc es): Mr. Speaker, we are aware of the concerns that have been brought forward by the people that he is talking about. We have ongoing dis cussion at the present time. A decision has not been made at the present time. Mr. Robinson: Mr. Speaker, the decision could be very beneficial for both the fishermen of Berens -

- May 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1808 River, and it is an idea that is not opposed by the Gimli fishermen. Will the minister make such a decision on an urgent basis? Mr. Drie dger: Mr. Speaker, we are weighing the pros and cons of it. It is not that simple a decision to just take at the stroke of a pen and change some of the requirements that are out there . We are looking at the impact it will have, and we are trying to do this in a fair and sensible way. Once we have made a decision on that, we will inform them. Berens River Fishermen Meeting Request Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland ): Mr.

Speaker, given that these fishermen still have outstanding claims for past damages to their equipm ent, will the minister agree to meet with the fishermen of Berens River to hear the concerns? Bon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources ): Mr. Spea ker, related to the outstanding claims that the member is making reference to, I think that meeting would probably be better taking place with the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducha rme), who is responsible for the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board.

If the group is going to fo rward a request to myself specifically on the issues that the member has rai sed, my door bas always been open in terms of meeting with concerned groups and inte rest groups . I will continue to do that. Mental Health Care Sexual Abuse Couns elling Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwoo d): Mr. Speaker, in the government 's own health ref orm document, on page 43, it indicates that a spectrum of mental health resources will be developed to provide services to indiv iduals as close to home as possible and to prevent institutionali zati on.

In a government memo from the assist ant deputy minister of mental health, the memo indi cates that one of the areas that there is an increasing dem and in is for counselling services for adult survivors of sexual abuse. Can the minister tell this House if services to sexual abuse survivors is, in fact, part of the new reform in mental health, and will those services be provided? Bon. James McCne (Minister of Health ): The honourable member does well today to point out the fact that the reform of mental health delivery is a priority for this government.

As we will discuss later today when we get into detailed examination of the Estimates of the mental health delivery of servic es, the honourable member will get more detailed responses. But, certainly , as we move away from complete emphasis on institutional care and into a wide range of community services , I am sure the issue raised by the honourable member will indeed be addressed.

I do not have a profile today to share with the member -at this time today, at least-about bow many people who suff er from mental illness have as a background a history of abuse of the kind ref erred to by the honourable member, but we will talk about this in more detail later this afternoon. Ms. Gny: Mr. Speaker, in this same government memo, which I am prepared to table, not only does the Department of Health indicate that there is an increasing need for services, particularly in rural Manitoba, the memo goes on to say that mental health will not be providing any counselling services.

I would ask the minister, can be tell us, particularly for rural Manitoba, what kinds of counselling services will be available for these indi viduals who are adult survivors of sexual abu se-and we know that the numbers are increasing , possibly one in 10. As I see this as important for mental health reform , will he ensure that services are prov ided for these individu als? Mr. McCrae: Regardless of what the honourable member bas in her band, I, too, see a link between difficulties people face when they grow up and problems experienced when they were younger. I would be quite happy to explore the matter further

1809 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1994 with the department and with the input of the honourable member. Certainly, I hope the reference she makes does not exclude all assistance , because you have to re membe r that a lot of service deliver y, counselling, re ferral , is being turned over to self-help organizations, as well. To what extent they are involved in this, we can discuss later this afternoon, as well. Diagnosis Process Ms. Avis Gray (Crescen twood): Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister of Health tell us why you must have a diagnosis of a mental illness and be labelled to have a diagnosis before any kind of counselling services through the mental health system will be provided? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : I do not know that that is a necessary precondition to someone accessing certain kinds of care from certain care providers. Certainly, I do not think you walk into one of the new self-help operations that we are setting up in the province , and they ask to see your certificate of diagnosis for a particular disorder.

If that is the case, I will be making inquiries to find out why that has to be that way, because I do not know, frankly, why you have to be diagnosed in certain ways if you have problem s. We have people there to help, and we want to make sure people get the help they need. •

(1420) Transcona -Springfield School Division Professional Development Days Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson) : Mr. Speaker, this government brought in Bills 22 and 16 which allows school divisiom to eliminate prof essional development days as a cost-saving measure. This is not happening. Can the Minister of Education confirm what teachers in the Tra nscona-Spr ingfield School Division are telling me, that they are being replaced by substitute teachers when they are attending in-servicing on the new provincial math curriculum? Point of Order Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr.

Spea ker, on a point of order, I believe the rules state that the member should ascertain and not require confirmation by any minister with respect to a question. I would ask for your ruling, Sir. Mr. Speaker : On the point of order raised, I would ask the honourable member for Radisson -it is quite correct. We should ascertain the accuracy of our facts. Kindly rephrase your question, pl ease. ••• Ms. Cer illi: Mr. Sp eaker, I would ask if the minister is aware then that this is happening and explain to the House why this is happe ning- Point of Order Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Speaker, at the risk of prolonging the exe rcise, I believe questions of awareness are also out of order. Mr. Speaker: Order, please . We have already dealt with that issue. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader) : Mr. Speaker, it has been clearly established in prac tice in Question Period the last number of years in the House, that questions of awareness are in order. The member has brought inf ormation to this House and is trying to determine whether the minister knows what is going on in that particular area That is in order. Mr.

Speaker : The honourable government House leader does not have a point of order. ••• Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for Radisson, I do not believe the honourable minister heard your question. Do you want to just put your question again, plea se? Ms. Cerilli: My question for the minister is, is the minister aware and can he explain why school divisions are, in fact, hiring substitute teachers to go to the classroom , while regular teachers are being in-serviced in curricul um, Mr. Speaker, that -

- - May 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 181 0 this provincial government is introdu cing, specifica lly in the math curri culum area? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): I just reiterate, Mr. Speaker, what the memb er 's colleague the member for Wellington (Ms. Barre tt) said. The answer is no. I am not aware of this issue. Ms. Cerilli: Mr.

Speaker, the minister perhaps can tell the House and explain bow there is a cost saving in having two teachers employed or paid, while the regular classroom teacher is being in-serviced, when Bills 22 and 16 were supposed to be a cost-saving measure? Mr. Manness : Mr. ·Sp eaker, it seems like the member is posing her questions in the wrong fo rum. She should probably be posing those questions at the next meeting of the local school board, because they probably have the answer to that question. Ms. Cerilli: Mr.

Speaker, the question is, if this government is going to support teachers being tiained in prof essional development and if they are going to allow teachers the time to be in-serviced in new curri culum , that is the iss ue, and it is this government that is reducing funding to school divisions and .setting up this chaos in the school divisio ns, so that all of thes e situations are being created. Will the gover nment stop trying to get something for nothing in our school system , and will they ensure that the long-tenn preparedn ess of teachers is· going to take place? Will they ensure tbat- Mr.

Speaker: Order, plea se. You have put your question. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, this is not a new issue. Bill 22 came in exactly alm ost a year ago. It was dealt with then. The impact that potentially would apply to school divisions was recognized at that point. But one thing the bill did not do, it did not dictate that any teacher bad to take off a professional development day. As a matter of fa ct, what the bill also did not dictate was that any school division bad to take away prof essional development days. It was an option . It was not obligatory legislation.

It provided an opp ortunity for school divisions to try and deal with their budgetary matters. Members recogni zed that a year ago. I find it strange that the member would come a year after the fact and ask a question about a bill that bas been passed by this Legislature a year ago. Health Care System Surgery Cancella tions Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I want to quote from a letter that I have received from my constituent, and I am prepared to provide a copy of this to the Minister of Healtb.

She writ es: "My husband, who is a cancer patient, waited from February until the end of April to see his doctor in Winn ipeg. This was after 2 cancellations of previous appoi ntments . At that time the doctor said surgery was necessary and his orders were to go home and wait for a call. He received a call on May 4 indicating be was to report to the Concordia hospital on May 6.

After driving to Winn ipeg to the Concordia Hospital (a distance of 450 km) be was told 'Sorry all surgery except out patients is cancelled beca use of a shortage of bed s.' ... 'there is not enough nursing staff to care fo r the patients '. My husband was told to return home "- Mr. Speaker : Question, please . Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Health whether this is acceptable service for serious cance r surgery patients coming from rural Manitoba, travelling 450 kilometres in this particular case . If no t, what action is be going to take to ensure this does not happen again? Bon.

James McCrae (Minister of Heal th): Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to re spond or comment on what other people have done or said. If the honourable member wants me to look further into this matter, I would be pl eased to do so. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, I talked to the constituent this morning. She said this letter bas been sent to the Minister of Health and the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

1811 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1994 I want to indicate that the surgery did take place , even after they were told the next time coming in that they would have to go home , but a doctor told them that he would go ahead with the surgery and that he would not send them home again. I want to ask the minister whether he will investigate what happened in this particular case, and e nsure , when I give him a copy of this letter, that he is taking steps to alleviate the nursing shortage to ensure that these kinds of waits, which are unconscionable, will be st opped, that this will not happen again. Mr.

McCrae: Mr. Spea ker, I would be very happ y, as I said, to follow this matter up further.

I believe that we should also ask for the support of the honourable member and his colleagu es when we try to restructure our hospital system, so that we can provide surgical procedures on the day we say we are going to provide them, so that we can admit you on the day we say we are going to admit you, so that we can discharge you in an orderly and reasonable fashion, and as we move to attem pt to make improvements in the health care syst em , so that the kind of problems the honourable members brings to this House today, so that those kinds of things can be minimized , we ask for suppo rt from honourable members oppo site.

We do not ask for their constant carping and criticism as we atte mpt to make improvements . For example, improvements to the Seven Oaks Hospital- Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase. Honourable minister, take your bench, sir. Time for Oral Questions has expired. Committee Changes Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas) : I move, seconded by the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett ), that the compos ition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as foll ows : Radisson (Ms. Cerilli ) for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans); Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) for Selkirlc (Mr.

Dewar), for Thursday, May 19, 1994, at 10 a.m. I move, seconded by the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Reso urces be amended as follows : Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli); Thompson (Mr. Ashton) for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), for Tuesday , May 24, 1994, at 10 a.m. I move, seconded by the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), that the composition of the Standing Commit tee on Economic Development be amended as follo ws: Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) for Brandon East (Mr.

Leonard Evans), for Thursday, May 26, 1994, for 10 a.m. I move, seconded by the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Reso urces be amended as follows: Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans); Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) , for Tuesday , May 31, 1994, for 10 a.m. Motions agreed to. Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Bon iface) : I move, seconded by the member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Reso urces be amended as follows: Osborne (Ms. McCormick) for St. James (Mr. Edwards). Motion agreed to. Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Spea ker, I move, seconded by the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpi ne), that the composition of the St anding Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as foll ows: the member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) for the member for Springfield (Mr. Findl ay); the member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer) for the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render) . Motion agreed to.

ORDERS OF THE DAY Mr. Speaker: The honourable government House lead er, what are your inten tions, sir? Ron. Jim Ernst (Government House Leade r): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that Mr. Speaker do now - -

- - May 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 181 2 leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supp ly to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for SL Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Departinent of Health. COMMITI'EE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING Mr.

Deput y Chair person (Marcel Laurendeau ): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. 1bis afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 4.(

b) on page 41 of the Estimates book. Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would just like to begin the pr oceedin gs today by handing out inf ormation that I referred to yesterday ; firstly, Private Vocati onal Schools Administration, Registration Inform ation for 1993-94, and also Private Vocational School Administration, Private Vocational School Demogra phics. Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolsele y): At the end of last time, I was asking the minister what had been the impact of the 11 percent cut to ACCESS Progra ms last year, and I believe he was saying that there had been a 15 percent reduction in enro llments . I am wondering how the minister got from that to estimating that his 20 percent cut this time will lead to additional enrollments. Is there any basic evidence other than the leap of faith that the minister is asking us to make ? Mr. Manness: I should report the reasons are a combination of two.

Firs tly, there is a large number of graduates this year, larger than last-176, I think, compared to 106 last year. So that is going to open up a significant number of replacements , not only for those positiom , but also I guess coming in. Starting new programming allows for a significant new intake, now that some of the courses are finished their period of time, whether that is two years or fo ur ye ars. Also, the reason with respect to the student loan.

Whereas last year the impact directly hit and curtailed individuals coming in, this year with the student loan proce ss, we are of the view that because there is no hard restriction to the number coming in, there will be more people able to access because of the fa ct now they have the availability of a student loan. Ms. Friesen : I am not sure I fo llow the logic there .

If last year, when the gov ernm ent first moved to student loan, there was a reduction in enroll ments, and if this year, there is a further requirement for student loam and there is going to be an increase in enrollment, could the minister perhaps explain what the leap is there? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the reduction la st ye ar of 15 percent was a combination of many events , not the least of which was partially due to the reduction in funding. Also, there were carry-over effects, lag effe cts from decisiom made years previou s.

That all culminated last year such that the total number in the program was down at a lower level. Using that as a base then allows us to say with relative certainty, given the fact that we are starting a number of new programs which have intake at the highest--of c ourse , as we know there is some attrition through the years of the program . So it is a combination then of large intakes next year plus the fact that individuals who will be approached and given an opportunity to be in the program will not be artificially held back by intake restrictions that were in place last year.

Now the only reason that they might not be able to come in is if indeed they have not achie ved the criteria under the student loan. •

(1440) 181 3 LEGISLA 'TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1994 I am sa ying, Mr. Deputy Chailperson, that many more will be able to meet that level, and consequently , the expectation is that year over year, the enrollment numbers will be higher. Ms. Friesen: What were these decisions of which we saw the lag effect last year? Mr. Mann ess: Well, for example, the elimination of the civil technology program that was made several years ago, and now, obviously , the final program came to a close last year, and the electrical ele cttonics area-those decisions were made previous to last year.

The lag effect, of course, has finally worked through the system as of last year .. Ms. Friesen : I am assuming those are both community college programs. Could the minister tell us how many students were involved in each? How much do those two decisions account for the reduction of 15 percent? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member can see the briefing books. That is with respect to this year's infoDDation. We do not have all the other inf oDDation from a year ago. We do not have that with us. Ms.

Friesen : 1be minister can obviously see that the context · of his decisions and the basis of his decisions today certainly reflect upon the kinds of decisions that have been made in the past. Would he undertake to table those numbers at a later date? Mr. Manness: We are pretty sure they were tabled last year, but we will try and resurrect those numbers and present them. Ms. Friesen: The question which I asked in the House today-now the minister has his staff with him. Perhaps we might have a different kind of discussion. The minister says there will be room for 60 more studen ts.

Essentially what I was asking was, how does he know what the retention rate is going to be under the new loan program? Could he tell us, in the absence of the tabled report which we have not seen, did the tabled report-or the untabled report-{lid the evaluation report look at this? Has the minister looked at it? How did it enter into his decisions about the program? How does it fit with his prediction, I assume his hope, that there will be 60 more students in this program? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chailperson, that is a theoretical number. We sense that the programs have opportunity to hold that many additional.

They are new and they will experience a lower attrition rate because indeed more numbers of students are reaching the end and are graduating. That is how I have some comfort around the expectation of enrollment and how I have some comfort around the expectation that the attrition rate or the dropout rate will be redu ced, as compared to several years ago. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, does the minister have any studies which look at the impact of the movement to loans on attrition rates in other program s, non-ACCESS Programs or other provinces?

Where is the evidence for the theoretical argument that the minister has that the loans will essentially not affect attrition rates? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chaiipe rson, you have two variables working and whether they worlc opposite to each other or in sympathy with each other, it is hard to say. I sense that there are more people today accessing this program and othe rs, that there is a greater body of opportuni ty.

Indee d, I would sense there was even, over time, a greater willingness to make important decisions , discretionary decisions, within limited funding that many households go through in support of maintaining one 's place in a program. That is happening el sewhere .

I cannot indicate for one moment that when tuitions are going up in the nonstatus programs at our universiti es, when tuitions are incre asing, and I cannot pretend that when individu als who at one time through summer worlc who may have been finding employment at $12 an hour or $14 an hour and today are dropping back to $8 an hour, I cannot sit here and pretend it is any easier to find on e's way into post-secondary education, and I do not. That is the reality of time .

I cann ot hide from the fact that today or just last week somebody told me the graduating engineers from the University of Manitoba today are able to go into the public and call forward a wage between

- - May 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 181 4 $24,000 and $26,000, exactly $10, 000 less than five years ago. I cann ot hide from that reality. Ms. Friesen: We ll, you helped create it. Mr. Mann ess: Well, no-I helped create it I have beard everything now. Now we are responsible for the fact that 10,000- Ms. Friesen : What do you think the Free Trade Agree ment is all about? What do you think global economy is all about ? Mr. Manness : Global economies are . So the member then says, free trade . So it is a Free Trade Agree ment issue from the member for Wolse ley. So that is what it is all about.

We ll, then there is no use discussing, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Htbis is a Free Trade Agreement argument, then obviously we cann ot. Ms. Friesen: In the absence of any of the min ister's evaluation reports, which he has not yet given to us, the only recent report that I have on ACCESS is that which was presented to the Roblin commission. In that report on page 7, it does say that the early signs of the impact of the reductions indicate that-and I am quoting -the lack of resources is becoming a fa ctor in early withdrawal of program students . Is this report wrong? Does the minister have other inf ormation?

If be does, will be table it? Mr. Manness: Well , Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we can agree to table the inf ormation we have on retention. We will endeavour to do that for tomorrow. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chaitperson, does that info rmation contradict the report that was given to the Roblin commission? Is lack of resources a fa ctor in ear ly withdrawal of program students? Was that becoming intensified last year when the first students were req uired to go to loans? Mr. Manness: Mr.

Deputy Chaitperson, we have nothing statistical or scientific, and we have not even any anecdotal information that would suggest that there is a trend there at all. •

(1450) Ms. Friesen: Bef ore the minister instituted his policy of all students going to loans, did he investigate how many students already in the program had loans? Did be investigate what the level of that loan burden was, and at which level in the program students were when they bad those loans? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member -gradually keeps drawing inf ormation out of the report tom� An Honourable Member: It would be much simpler to table it. Mr. Manness: Well, it would. I can hardly wait to do so, I can assure the member. I would indicate to the member that out of the survey done by Mr.

Hikel 's outfit, Peat Marwick, out of 186 students that were surveyed-and, again, remember we said that the global number was around 744-- 25 percent of the 186 applied for loans, 132 were accepted, for an average of $2,353 per student. What was also revealing was there was no award for 54, or 30 percent of these ACCESS applicants because they did not meet one or more of the above eligibility requirements.

If that survey means anything-and, of c ourse , you cann ot extend it to the total population base, altho ugh I would say it is a healthy number surveyed-it would indicate 30 percent of ACCESS stude nts have suff icient means and require no loan, and that indeed, Mr. Deputy Chaitperson, if the member wants to know, that is one of the main points of rationale behind the policy change. Ms.

Friesen : Were those 186 who were surveyed, was that a random survey, hence a scientific survey, or were those the same first-year students that the minister told me about last night, the ones who had already been selec ted on a diff erent basis? Mr. Manness: I did not hear the question, but, again, I want to indicate this was not 30 percent of the sample ; this represented 30 percent of the total . The 186 students I talked about were not a sample; they were the total number who applied for Canada Student Loans.

Thirty percent of those were not eligible, which says that there is a whole other large number who did n ot apply for Canada Student Loans at all, which calls into question indeed their own ability to satisfy some costs associated with their education.

181 5 LEGISLA11VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1994 Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Cbaitpe rson, I think what it calls into evidence is the fact that they would be connected with bands, bands which have education funds and that can then afford to contribute some supp ort towards the students . It does not necessarily reflect the stud ents' condition at all.

What it does is reflect that the basis of selection for these programs bas become quite different than it was at the beginning and that those without band affiliation in fact have a very, very difficult time in getting into these programs at all now in ways which were not contemplated 10 years ago. Of the 30 percent that the minister is talking about who did not get loans, does be have evidence to show that these are people who did not need loans or are they in fact people who were not eligible for different reasons? Are they, for examp le, not eligible because they might have a bouse?

Are they not eligible because under the new Canada Student Loans they might have a car worth more than $2,000? Are they not eligible because they might in the past have bad a spouse or a family member who bas declared bankruptcy or who might have defaulted on a loan, not the fault of the student but of somebody in their family? Are any of those reasons included in that 30 percent? • (15 00) Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Cbaiipe rson, the rules of eligibility were the same that are in place for every citizen of this country, no different, and they include : must be a Manitoba resident, (

b) must be a Canadian citizen or a landed immigrant, (

c) must be enrolled in a recognized post-se condary institution, (

d) must be a full-time student, (

e) must not be in default on a prior Canada Student Loan and (

f) must have an assessed need which justifies a loan. The very same criteria that is in place for every other citizen of this land. Ms. Friesen: The issu e wit h the ACCESS Programs is that many of the students are not starting from an equal position. The minister bas talked a great deal about equity and equitability and equality in this progr am, but many of the students must be in longer programs.

That is the point I was trying to get across to the minister on two occasions now in Question Period, that they are going to be in pro grams for a longer period of time, their debt load is going to mount at a faster rate because of the regulations of Canada Studen t Loans , both under the old regulations and under the new regulations, and, in fact, they will bit that ceiling before they have their degree . How does the minister antici pate that these students are going to, without a degree, get the job which be is so convinced they will get, and bow are they going to be able to repay those loans? Mr. Manness: Mr.

Deputy Cbaiipe rson, because we believe that, that is why only the first tranche, the Canada St udent Loan is repayable. The Mani toba student loan is nonrepayab le. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there is a cap on the amount of Canada Student Loan that any student can have access to under the first degree program or a second or third degree program. Students with families, students who have longer progra ms, students who are in programs wher e there is no opportunity for summer worlc are not in an equal position with the majority of students in the institutions in which they are attending.

So I am asking the minister again-be said that Canada Student Loans are the only ones they will have to repay , but there is a cap on the amount ·that students can get under Canada Student Loans, and if you have a family and if you are in long programs then it is quite possible that many of these students are going to be a year short of a degree and, in fact, have reached the cap , the maximum that they will be eligible for in Canada Student Loan. Mr. Manness: Mr.

Deputy Chairp erson, the member is probably well aware that Canada is considering changing the caps and may very well increase them, and, again, these caps on the Canada Student Loan portion certainly do not apply to the Manitoba student loan portion. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the min ister must take the responsibility for transf erring all these students to a total loan program. When be did that be must have known what the Canada-[intetjection] - -

- - May 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 181 6 Then I will rephrase that . The minister must take responsibility for transfetring these students to Canada Student Loans programs. When be did that be must have understood that there were caps on the total 11:1110unt and indeed on the annual amount available to any student under Canada Student Loans. The cap at the moment is in the region of $20, 000 for a first degree, $30, 000 for the second degree and this is cumulative, and up to $40,000 for three degrees . Students with families reach that $20,000 maximum before they have completed the degree.

They then have no degree, a heavy loan, are much less likely to get a job, much less likely to be able to repay it Surely the minister bad considered this when be made this program. Mr. M annes s: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, '93-94, the borrowing limits, 520 weeks , $20, 000 if a four to five-year degree; $30, 000 if a five to six-year degree; and indeed $40,000 if over six years; $15, 000 all other pr ograms. But for '94-95 it is unknown because the federal government bas not addre ssed that issue in the newly tabled Canada Student Loan Act It is our expectation, listening to the arguments put forward by Mr.

Axwortby, one wo uld think that the fe deral government is talking about increasing these caps, and I would have to think that will happe n. That obviously represented some basis and bad some impact on the decision. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there is no evidence in the bill bef ore Parliament now, Bill C-28, which was tabled in Parliament two weeks ago, which bas not been passed, bas not been debated, the regulations have not been formed, and there is no indication in that bill that there is to be any change in the caps.

Surely the minister understood this when be made that direction to change this program, and so that in the absence of that, the minister bas moved all of these students into this program . He would have to assume, without any mention in Bill C-28 that any changes were going to occur, that the existing caps would remain. If be did not assure himself of that, why did be enter so quickly into this progr am? So me provinces have remained outside of it because , as they said, it is too fast to get on stream for this coming year. This minister bas plunged right into this program. He does not know what the caps are .

He does not know bow it is going to affect students . Where is the pl ann ing? Mr. Manness : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we are all over the map now. We are actually into the next section, Student Financial Assistance, and I could indi cate to the member, most of the prov inces have entered into the agreem ent. A fe w NDP provinces are waiting one more year, but the reality is everybody is going to be part of this program in short order. Ms. Friesen : No, the issue is precisely its impact upon ACCESS students.

The differe nce between ACCESS students and other students are many, and I wish the minister bad taken the time to meet with students, so that be would unde rstand the diversity of condition, the diversity of programs and the differences between these students and other students in Manitoba. If be bad taken that trouble, be would at least have learned some of these issues.

Now the question is, ACCESS studen ts, in some cases but not all, are in longer programs than other students, so that, as their weeks mount up, the maximum number of weeks which they are allowed on a Canada Student Loan come for them much more quickly than they do for students who are in a 32-week program. In addition, they do not have the summ er period to find and earn money in the way that other students do. So they are doubly pena lized. The maximum cap appro aches at a much faster rate than other students, and they do not have the summer income .

So could the minister explain to me bow be anticipated this change in program that be must have known was in place in January or Fe bruary of this year when be began to set up this budget. How did be anticipate that this change would affect the students in the ACCESS Programs? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that is all on the record. I sensed once we looked at the total indebtedness at this point of tw o-- roughly on average, on average , and you can only make policy

181 7 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1994 on the basis of broad average s, and trying to look at the limits , trying to detennine within the limits of the variation around that average whether or not you have a policy that is workable. We looked at the very low indebted ness, around $2,300 a student We are mindful of the caps. We are also mindful that every individual in support of their post-secondary educatio�it is not a free good. I know the member for Wolseley wants it to be a free good.

I know her philosophy behind that, but the reality is today's society cannot provide for that, and so the maximum at 52 weeks at $165 that anybody can borrow in a year is $8,580. Indeed, many of these programs are, of course, shorter than SO weeks, and I am saying to her that it is the expectation and the requirement of everybody who is trying to improve their educational opportunities to try wherever possible to supplement their income.

That is a given, and we sense that the combination of those factors makes this policy change in keeping , in keeping , with fairness and, inde ed, with a greater opportunity for more students to atte nd. Ms. Friesen: I am appalled at the absence of the minist er's knowledge of this program. I am appalled by his absence of understanding of the students who are in this program and the absolute minimal understanding be seems to have of the impact of the Canada Student Loan program here.

The second part of the question that I asked him in the House today dealt with the ann ual caps on students , and he has again indicated here, now that be bas his staff here, that be knows that it is up to $8,000. Is be aware that for a dentistry student or for a medical student that the cost, the absolute basic cost for a single student is in the region of $11, 000 to $1 2,000? How does be anticipate that any student on the Student Loan program without family supports is going to make it into those dentistry and medical programs which have been amongst the most successful of the programs? Mr.

Manne ss: That is why-and again, I will say this for the record-we provide a nonrepayable loan of another $110 plus study assistance of $40 per person for those who qualify. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, will the minister then tell me what the total of that would be? You add another $140 a week. Does that bring them up to the $12, 000? Mr. Mann ess: That brings it up to $16 ,380. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, does the minister realize bow many of those students are people with fam ili es? How many of the medical students who have been through are marri ed and have familie s?

How many of the dentistry students have been in that situation? Has the minister investigated that? Does be know what the relation ship is between the $16, 000 and the poverty line in Wmni peg for a family of fo ur? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member and I are going to have to agree to disagree. I mean, she wants education to be a free good, and I am sorry, it is not a free good. Ms. Friesen : I would say to the minister, who seems intent on reading my mind, what I ask for is a common-sense approach. Go back and look at who the students are. Look at the contributions they have made to the community .

Look at where they are working. Talk to the graduates . Talk to the communities they have been in. Look at the students who are close to graduation. Look at the students who are just coming into the program. There are many diverse conditions here. There are many other solutions than the ones the minister is proposing , but be is not prepared to talk to those people, and he is not prepared to listen to the communities.

I think be bas a set plan in his mind based on his particular ideology that I think is essentially gutting these programs which have made a huge difference to many communities and fam ilies in Manitoba. So what I am asking him to do is to do his homework, to do his research, to plan and to do it in conjunction with the people who are affect ed. That seems to me a common-sense solution. He still bas the opportunity to do it. The Canada Student Loan program is not even through Parli ament. There is the opportunity now to say, stop, let us take another look at it and let us have a public discussion.

- - May 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 181 8 Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Olairperson, it seems we are having a public discussion right now. This is exactly what this was meant to do. This is a democratically elected government. It has the power of the people behind it. It is entrusted with making decisions, and it is, of course, required through accountability procedures to make discussions like this public , and it is doing that. The member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) is doing a very good job of putting penetrating questions germane to the subject. So this is the public proc ess.

We have been criticized in the past, governments here, there and everywhe re, have been criticized in the past for not having done anal ysis, not having done research, not having done an effective review of programs so that you could make some knowledge- based decisions and make change. The governm ent has done all that. • {1510 ) I know the member does not like the policy changed. The member wants to maintain the status quo, and I can understand why the member does. She has been very close to the programs, and she believes that the program-[interjection] We ll, the member says she understands.

Well, there are a lot of things that I understand, too, within education, but today, the fiscal reality does not allow the support of it. [interjection] Well, then if it costs more, then I ask why the federal government does not rush in and do its sha re of support. [int erjection] Well, this is an ongoing request, and I say to the member, we are put in the position to make these decisiom. They are uncomfortable at the best of times. I wish we did not have to change the world, but the fact is, the world is changing around us, and there have to be changes. Furthermore , Mr.

Deputy Chairperson , I really think that we have followed the textbook as far as making a policy change in this case . Now the member does not agree with the change. I acknowledge that, and she, of course , would do something differently. She would do it differ ently, but the fact is, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we are going to table the report. I will certainly receive representation, as I do, from any student or aggrieved party, and I will try and explain the best I can why it is the government has had to make this decision. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the minister is right; I have been close to this program. I have taught many ACCESS studen ts. The very first speech I made in this House, which is generally a nonpartisan speech, one of the things I singled out in Mani toba as one of Manito ba's miracles were the ways in which ACCESS students have made a difference to the universities and to their communities and to Manitoba. Yes, I do feel very strongly about this program, and I feel very strongly about the proce ss by which the minister and his pre decessor in fact have cut this program over two ye ars.

I feel very strongly about the fe deral cuts, too, as I am sure the minister does. Certainly Manitoba has had to face great difficulties there, with the absence of that northern agreement and the minist er's political partners in Ottawa who decided to cut it in a unilateral basis. So yes, the province has faced many difficulties , but that does not excuse the fact that the minister has based this on a policy, on an evaluation, which he has not released and which we have asked for over and over. The minister says, this is a public process, but it is a very unequal public process. I have no evidence.

I have no documentation. The last item I have is, in fact, the evidence which was presented to the Roblin review by people who work in the program. The minister contradicts it I have no evidence on which to base my evalua tion of his contra diction, so it is a very unfair and unequal proc ess. It is not the kind of public discussion and public process which could have taken place on this iss ue. It could have done. So again, I would like to ask the minister to table that report. Let us all look at it .

Let us all participate on an equal basis with the government and with the mini ster in discussing what changes he believes are ne cessary to this program. Secondly, perhaps the minister would table his most recent letter to the federal government, the new fe deral govern men t, asking for the reinstatement of their portion of ACCESS

181 9 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1994 Programs. When was that done? Could the minister table it? I would also like, Mr. Deputy Chaiiperson, to ask the minister if he did any evaluation of the . alternatives for ACCESS students. What happens when these students do reach their ceiling cap , whether it is on an annual basis or on a total basis? They go to welfare .

In the most recent report that was published on ACCESS, that which went to the Roblin review , it states that a 19 79 management committee of governme nt study on program cost and efficiency concluded that in tenns of transfer payments saved and taxes paid, program graduates pay back in seven years not only the cost of their own education but the cost of dropouts, as well. The ripp le effect of consum er spending from increased earnings rem ains uncalculated, but is estimated to be considerable. An additional benefit to the local community is the fact that local people tend to spend more money locally .

Now that was 1979. Did the minister, as part of his evaluation, look at the impact of the loss of people who are not going into ACCESS Programs or who must drop out because they have their loan ceiling limits or who are not eligib le, through no fault of their own-perhaps from a family member, perhaps from a bankruptcy of a family member in the past -are not eligible for student loans? They are going to go onto social assistance.

What is the cost of that to the Province of Manit oba, and what could have been the cost saving if these peo ple had been kept in the program , graduated, got the jobs which the minister is so sure that they do get, and begun to repay the cost of the programs? Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Deputy Olairperson, again, I point out to the member, when she accuses me of saying that I am certain that ther e will be employment at the end , that is the statement being made by so many of the proponents of the pr ogram. So I have attached myself to that statement, Mr. Deputy Chaitperson.

So when the member says, the minister see ms to be so sure, so confident-! am using now the very words provided by those people who are close to the program, so if I am not right, then they are not right, because I have attached myself to that statement. When the member says , what analysis has been done, economic analysis of the contribution given a graduate, well, Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, how do we argue with that? What do I do? Do I shift all the res ources in maintaining this program?

Do I shift them from other areas of post-secondary education to then more greatly restrict the same poten tial payback by the graduates in those programs? An Honourable Member: ffiM Mr. Manne ss: I see. So this is purely then a philosophical ttaining issue. [interjection] I see. Well, I guess that is where we have to agree to disagree. We , as a government, are trying to be fair to all of our citizenry who are involved in ttaining and receiving post-secondary education. This is part of that whole element of fairness. I mean, we have rest ricted funding to universi ties . The member kno ws.

She is going to want to spend considerable time there. We have reduced funding in some other employment enhancement programs and it is because of the fiscal imperative. We have tried to make arrangements and policy changes that, yes, have called upon some to assum e some debt load where virtually they had none before . That is what we have tried to do, because the member can try and paint this picture in isolation as being hard-hearted purely within one area. It is so easy to make that point. There has to be balance across all of the ttaining programs.

There has to be balance across all of the post -secondary education programs and yet there have to be priorities. The prioritie s this time went to community college funding. That is where the priority went within the envelope of educati on. That, Mr. Deputy Chairpe rson, has been well documented. The member can go on and on ad nauseam if she wishes, but the reality is, this policy has been well thought out. It will be acceptable to the vast majority of Manitobans, and furthermore it will provide opportunities for other students who qualify legitimately for the ACCESS Program. -

- - May 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1820 Ms. Fries en: Mr. Deputy Chair, yes, there obviously are philosophical and ideological diff erences between us. The minister claims that he has no more money and that he would have to take it from elsewhere. Yes, he would have to take it from elsewhere . We do have a number of suggestions. We could start with Kentuc ky Fried Chicken, IBM, Pepsi-Cola, Be atrice Foods, Boeing Canada, Centra Gas, Arnold Bros. Transport, Canada Classique, Canada West Shoe Manufactur ing, Canadian Sportswear, Cargill 49,000 and Carnation Foods.

There are many corporate training grants whi �h could have paid for this program. It is not perhaps even simply an issue of a diff erent ideolo gical basis. Those grants would have paid for the continu ation and completion of many of the students who are in the program now. They would also, for any person, it see ms to me, with any common sense, make sense in terms of the economic future of Manitob a. These programs train people from the inner city.

They provide, as this particular report to-the Roblin review argues that they provide important role models in communities where there has been no one going to university or to col lege. So that se nse of breaking the vicious cycle of underemployment, underdevelopment in the inner cities and in the poorer communities of Manitoba is a very important one for the future of Manitoba. Look at the front page of The Globe and Mail today. In what terms is Manitoba being spoken of but its high child poverty rates. We top the list in child poverty in Manitoba.

These are the kinds of programs which hel p people and communities to move out of that vicious cycle. When we look at the future of Manitoba over the next 10 years, the future is in the growing aboriginal population. From whatever context the minister wants to look at it, whether it is in the provision of labour, whether it is in the provision of community services, whether it is in the you thfulness of the population that is there compared to the nonaboriginal population, the future of Manitoba has to lie in the educational prosperity of that community.

This is the one of the programs which did that so successfully. Yet, it see ms to me, the minister and this government has extraordinarily misplaced priorities when it can defend the granting of corporate training grants to corporations which already have well-developed corporate training. •

(1520) There is no question that mM is very committed to corporate training; it would do it whether this government contributed to it or not . But $50,000 went to IBM for corporate trai ning, and that money did not go into improving the future of Manito ba's inner-city people or aboriginal communiti es. Mr. Mann ess: The member in her impassioned plea, of course, strikes out against wealth- creating industries. She has no regard for them; she senses that they do not have a place. Ultimat ely, they contribute also to the well-being of our provi nce.

But far beyond that, when gov ernm ents move into budgetary times, let me tell you that this government is keen ly aware of the demographics and the trends within our province . If the member wants to begin to look at the total commitment made with respect to those demographics over all of the departments of govermnent, she would be overwhelmed and astounded. So, Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, we understood and were supporters and still continue to be supporters of the program as it was ori ginally conce ived, as it was brought fo rward, as it was fo stered and as it has developed. We are suppo rters.

But I will not allow the member to say, because the program has wot:ked well to this point in time and is wot:king increasingly better year after year that. changes cannot be made. That I will not accept. She will say, well, you ma de decisions to change , but you will not share with us the rationale in which you made them . I have given the member insight into a num ber of the points . In one month, hopefully, I will be able to table a complete and final report that will lay out all the rationale in one document. But certa inly the member cannot argue with the government 's right

1821 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1994 to make these changes No. 1, to the process in which we have made them, as far as taking into account evaluatiom and asse ssment. (Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Clair) 1be member is perturbed, because, of course, we have made them without sharing with her at this point of time-b ecause we are not able to do so--the infonn ation base that we used to help us make those decisions.

But she cann ot lay at our fe et the fact that we do not care or do not understand or do not see the merging trends of the demographics in our province, because that is nomense , that is hogwash. I do not have to sit here and take that. We understand it; we live it from a day to day. But she makes a plea that this program in itself is invio late , it cann ot be changed.

I say to her, when a program is worldng better and resources are needed still in other areas that are as high priorities as this, aod some higher, and particularly in the areas of health , then we can do some of the fine tuning and in confidence know this program will survive , and it will still continue to p rovide the ob jectives and the goals that were set out in its original concept. So I sit here and say to the member, I think she is overstating her cas e and her criticism, but nevertheless, that is her right to do so. Ms. Friesen: 1be minister says that I am opposed to any change .

I do not know where be bas got that idea from 7 In fa ct, I challenge him to find that anywhere. What I have said on the record is that all university pr ograms, all educational programs in fact in the public sector, are reviewed on a regular basis . But those reviews are conducted public ly, and the results are published and are available . What is happening here is a review and evaluation where the material and the report bas been sitting on the minister 's desk.

He has made some very dramatic changes in a program which bas been successful, an d be is doing it in ways that I think adversely affe ct, and in many ways unnecessarily adversel y aff ect, the students of this provi nce. I want to read into the record some of the questions and comments that students have provided us with. Perhaps the minister would perhaps take these down, and be will be ·able to provide us with some written responses to these. 1be first student comments that the government continuously speaks of fairness, but is. it fair to pull funding in the middle of a fo ur-year program?

The minister keeps referring to fairness, but bow are two-parent fam ilies with low income supposed to find an education? Does the minister know the meaning of f airness? 1be second student says, why will the minister not make public the report o n ACCESS which be kee ps referring to? A third student says, I have full funding as a treaty Indian student, but if cuts continue to take place at the Winnipeg Education Centre, I will not have a place to go no matt er bow much funding I have . That is an issue I have not raised here , the changes in administrative cuts, Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, but indeed I will be coming back to that. A fo urth student says that last year when you were Fi nance minister you told me that society would support me. Neither of the we lfare departments will pay me to go to school for fo ur years, and I am not eligible for a loan. I am not eligible for a loan. H I can get that through the minist er's bead, I think I will perhaps have had some success here. How do I finish the final two and a half years without ACCESS funds? Mr.

Manne ss, another student: I have already accumulated $16, 000 in debt with Canada Student Loans in order to supplement my income that I receive from the ACCESS Progr ams. So they already have loans. I have p rior unive rsity. Under your new program I will onl y be eligible fo r one more loan, which will not pay for the two years that I have left to receive my degree. I will be left without a degree and owing a large debt. Instead of a dream of self-suf fi ciency for me and my two childre n, I will be in much worse circumstance s. That, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, is a very important point.

These students who did have a dream are not being left in the same condi tion. They are being left in worse condit ions. Their -

- May 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1822 situation bas deteriorated as a result of this minis ter's decision. · I will be in much worse circumstances than I started with. Please reconsider your decision. Another student writ es, bow can the minister justify cutting ACCESS funding when the loans currently received by students, some with families and some single parents, do not even cover tuition? This bas been demonstrated over and over with students already struggling to survive . I will add, Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairpers on, that I know from my own experience that students at the Winnipeg Education Centre certainly are resorting to food banks on a regular basis. Another student writes, many students in long-t erm programs su ch as medicine and dentistry have been the subject of considerable investment thus far. Professionals of these fields are in high demand in rural and inner-city areas. Does the minister feel that withdrawing supp ort at this time is fiscally responsible?

Over the eight years necessary to complete the program, is the minister suggesting that a debt of $64,000 and more be incurred by these students? I would indicate to the minister that many of these students are in fa ct in middle age, that they are not the sequential students that perhaps people so commonly think: of as students. How many years are left to repay? A further student adds, what is the definition of indebtedness by this government? Winnipeg Education Centre graduates graduate with loans, on average , between $1 0,000 and $20,000. These are funded ACCESS stUdents.

Would this not meet the expectations of the minister as explained by his own words , sa tisf y some co sts with their education? How can the minister justify cutting students who without this program will not be able to continue their education? Social assistance benefits will ap ply to these students provided they quit their pr ograms. They may then apply to re-enter the program fo llowing six months of receiving social assistance bene fits, hereby lengthening the years of receiving social assistance.

For a student with one year left in his or her degr ee, this me ans two years of social assistance instead of one year to the degree, quite the saving, the student adds. A further student: How can the minister keep saying that these cuts are based on f airness to the rest of university students when the ACCESS students are from disadvantaged groups to begin with and do not start out at the same level as other students? I would be interested to see if the min ister's report in fact acknowledges that. Most, if not all, ACCESS students do carry student loans .

What will happen to those students who are not eligible for student loans for one reason or another? The minis ter claims that the proposed cuts allow more students to attend university. What about the students who will have to quit? Do they not deserve access to university as well? Does the minister have documents to show where each student signed, acknowledging that the government may cut the funding at any time?

I was under the impression that I would be provided fu nding for a minimum of four years and a maximum of seven years, and these are indeed the conditions under which students did enter the ACCESS Programs. How do you expect citizens to trust your gover nm ent when you so ea sily break commitments that adversely affect Manit oba's unemployment concerns and concerns for welfare dependency? Are you not throwing the taxpayer money invested in my education over the past two years down the drain? Student loa ns are inadequate, and that is particularly true for people with fami lies. Has Mr.

Manness considered that we have already incurred debt and that we are middle -aged students with families? Taking on more debt is a disincentive? Am I to pay for my last loan payment as I apply for my Old Age Pension? Am I to go on to the welfare system since I am now overqual ified fo r low-wage work and underqu alified for the field I am training in? How do you back your research when no one bas asked me what the quality of my lif e is? • (15 30) Further, the student adds: Do you have any idea how we would get into the Winnipeg education

1823 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1994 program, which is a part of ACCESS? That was · something which I was addressing in the Question Period as well, the minister's concern about selectivity when be in fact bas his own direct representation on that selection process. Most Wmn ipeg Education Centre students have children. How can we possibly live off student loans? I am sure, Mr.

Acting Deputy Olairpemon, if the minister would agree to meet with the students and to meet with the communities from which they come that be will find many more questions like that which speak directly to the very specific impact that this change bas bad on families in Manitoba. Mr. Manness: Mr. Acting Deputy ChairpeiSon, I thank the member for reading that infonnation into the record. She was incotrect in a number of her assertions. First of all, I want her to know and, again, for the record, that academic programs and the overall intake levels have been maintained for '94-95.

Furthennore, as I have indicated several times, we expect the level of total programming, the number of students in the total pro gram , to incre ase. I should also indicate, it bas not been the policy of the government to guarantee the level of financial support to ACCESS students beyond one budge tary year. Nobody can gu arantee that. Student financial support is subject to change upon provision of notice. Every student bas lived under those rules since the Canada Student Loan came into being. Provision of notice of change . (Mr.

Deputy CbairpeiSon in the Olair) The member should also know , and probably knows better than I, since '88-89, $72.2 mill ion has been spent on ACCESS. I do not know whether mem bers opp osite realize bow many dollm $72 million is. It is an incredible amount of money, and yet this government bas supported that expenditure for many ofthe very same reasons put on the record by the member, because we support the program, always have .

I think it is so unfair when this government bas stood in the breach of federal governments and their withdrawal and fo und more money year after year after year that when the changes that are made, given that this program no longer requires the level of fo stering it may have 10 or 12 yem ago, the membeiS oppos ite jump all over and say: No, this program is sacred in every respect and it should not be changed. All they can talk about is cut, cut, cut. The member says, review it publicly.

I have stated for the record all of the rationale for the change, and the membeiS can play to whomever it is they think they are trying to imp ress, but the reality is, the government believes in the pro gram, the government bas supported the program through seven budget yem and will continue to do so, and I underline this, within its budgetary capability to do so. It is reflected today with respect to the changes, and I am mindful and I am expecting that the total number of individuals who will be gaining access to the program will increase.

The member says, you have not taken into account the very needs of the people who are in the program. We have a general policy in place, but we also have in place an appeal mechanism. For those individuals who have very extreme conditions associated with their particular set of circumstances, some which have been read into the record by the member, obviously, that appeal process is put into place to take those circumstances into account in an attempt to try and render a fa ir decision. That bas always been in place . Nothing bas changed. Mr. Deputy Cbairpemon, the general policy is the general policy.

The appe al pr ocess, which, I sense, will deal with some of the issues as brought forward by the member, is also in place, and nothing that I have indicated today by way of general policy will prevent that process from being fo llowed. Ms. Friesen : On the minist er's last point , the app eal process will need to be to the Canad a Student Loans program because that is where the basic problem will lie in the caps. What guarantees is the minister going to give us on the appe al process for the Canada Student Loans? He says, no -

- May 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1824 guarantees, and that is the problem. So that is item 1. I would also like to remind the minister that when I first asked him the question, over a week ago in the House, about the grandfath ering of students who are already in the program , and essentially the kind of contract which he believed he had entered into with students in this program, he said, we did grandfather the rights last year when we went from a bursary program to a straight loan pr ogram. We did grandfather the rights of those students to whom we had made commitments.

That is the general app roach this government has taken with respect to all policy change s. The minister understood, as many of the students did, that that had been the general approach of the students. It was only when he went back to his department or his office and fo und out that, in fact, in this case, he had made a very diff erent kind of decision. I commended the minister on his original understandin g, but that has not been the effect of the program.

I wanted to ask the minister about some other aspects of the ACCESS Program , particula rly those de aling with administrative costs, because last year, last night rather, he argued that there were going to be substantial savings made in administrative costs, that this 20 percent cut reflected only-and the small proportion of it was reflected in the cuts to students, but the larger portion of it was reflected in cuts to the administration. Am I re calling the minister's statement correctly? Mr. Manness: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I cannot quite rec all where the emphasis was, but certainly in general breakout we would think there would be a half -a-milli on-dollar savings in administrative costs associated for the most part over-a gain, the lag aff ects savings over decisions that have been changed over -p olicy changes over the last number of years and one and a half million dollars with respect to, now, the new loan requirement. Ms. Fri esen: So of the 20 percent cut on this line in ACCESS Programs, what prop ortion of this year's cut is applicable to administrative costs? Twenty-five percent? Mr.

Manness: Twenty-five percent. Ms. Friesen: Twenty-five percent. Okay. Would the minister then perhaps give me an indication of where those cuts are coming? For example, do you have a list of what the administrative costs in each program were last year and what the administrative cost will be this year, because every administrative cost also implies reductions in some aspect of the institutions? Which institutions are being cut? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, at this point we have budgeted for these reductions in administration.

The $11 7,000 in the EN GAP program; $12 0,000 in the colleges and particularly the Red River Community College Civil Tech and Electrical programs, and again that was the final phase-out of those programs ; completion of the northern Bachelor of Nursing, $239,000; and a phase-out of the Government of Northwest Terri tories agreement of $46,000. Those are administrative savings. •

(1540) Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, so there have been no administrative cuts to the medical programs, to the special premedical program s, or to the Wmnipeg Education Centre. Mr. Manness: The answer is no. Ms. Friesen : What are the implications of that $239, 000 cut to the Northern Nursing Program? Mr. Manne ss: Well, it is a wind-down scenario, a wind-down year, as the Swampy Cree Tribal Council has pulled out of the general agreement with the University of Manitoba. How it is reconstituted, what form it comes back, it is hard to say at this point. Ms.

Fries en: Has the minister entered into discussions with the Swampy Cree Tribal Council on that program 7 Does the minister have concerns about the continuation of a northern nursing program in some fo rm? Mr. Mann ess : This is all tied up, I beli eve, by the Department of Health, of cour se, which is right now reviewing the whole policy of nursing education in this provin ce. It is no use overtraining

1825 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1994 in a global sense, in a macro sense , a number of professionals when there is no guarantee of wolk. So that is what bas to be done fi rst, and I understand the Department of Health is taking the lead I am very, very well aware of the tremendous contribu tion that the Northern Nursing Program bas provided, and certainly Keewatin Community College is also in contact with me and the University of Manitoba with respect to see ing this maintai ned, but right now we require a macro review to determine the basic nursing nee ds in our province . Ms.

Friesen: Is the minister sayi ng, then, that there is an ove rsupp ly of nurses in Manitoba? Mr. Mann ess: Well, I am saying there is an oversupply of general-duty registered nurses. That must be the case because many are leaving the province to secure income elsewhere . Ms. Friesen: Could the minister explain why his own publication, A Report on High Demand Occupations in Manitoba, lists nurse specialis ts, registered nurses as one of the high-demand occ upations in Manitob a: continuing demand for registered nurse specialists and intensive care and neonatal care in hospitals and for community health nurses.

Does the minister not have an indication or a sense that community health nursing delivered in the North, by people trained in the North who will remain in northern commun ities, is something which would benefit this province and be a very important way of spending excess dollars? Mr. Mannes s: A very important consideration with respect to the whole area of native economic development and potential.

I fully accept the statement of the member, and that is why, once we as a government fully understand the total needs and the localities in which the greater needs are, then we, hopefully , will set up training strategies accordin gly. But let me say, when the member reads, as she just did, advertisements or from wherever she is readi ng, she used the words specialized n urses . My remarks were, genera lly, in the high-dema nd association; my general remark was "general duty." The member, of course, bas read specialized. There is a big dif fe rence between general duty and specialized.

So the member, of course, understands that fully, and why is she not so honest to say so? I said "general duty," as I said, where there was an oversupply. I did not say there was an oversupply in specialized. There is demand in specialized areas. So let the record speak very clearly then, Mr. Deputy Chaitperson. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairpe rson, that is exactly why I read the whole thing, because it is specialized, and it is diff erent from what the minister wanted to put on the record. Community health nursi ng, it seems to me, is an obvious demand in northern Mani toba.

We have bad a Northern Nursing Program, a Bachelor of Nursing program, the most likely students to be moved into commun ity hea lth nursing who have the opportunity-if they were given the opportunity to train in that. We have an established need; the minister bas recognized it.

It is in his own publi cations, and yet be is cancelling a program where students might have begun to move into that I am asking him about the needs of northern Manitoba, the ACCESS Program and the way in which it bad met some of those nee ds, and did be have a concern for the continuation of some kind of northern nursing program delivered at the community basis? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, because of the specialized need in the North, I cannot fore see that there will not be a program somewhere. But right now we have a Northern Nu rsing Program , ACCE SS, delivered in Thompson.

We have a Northern Nursing Program , R.N. pro gram, in The Pas, and we have several programs in southern Manitoba. There has to be some rationale brought to all of these programs. That bas to be done , and it will be done. But, at the end of the day, there may not be two programs in the North, but certainly I fully expect there will be one because of the very spe cialized need that the member talks about. So I think we speak in chorus here with respect to this iss ue. Ms. Friesen : That is why I was asking what the minister bad done in his discussions with the

May 17, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1826 Swampy Cree Tribal Council, and be essentially ref erred it back to the Department of Health. So my concern is for the pl anning for the North and for ACCESS Programs, and I would like to get an indication from the minister today on what be sees in the fu ture. What is the process of that plan? When will we know, and who will be doing it, and what kinds of discussions are taking place? Mr. Manness : Mr.

Deputy Chair person, as I indicated earlier, the Department of Health will take the lead on this, and once it bas established where the supply of trained nurses should be to meet the dem ands that are out there , then strategy associated with training will subsequently fo llow. That is the process . Ms. Friesen: I want to go back with the minister to his difficulties with the selection process, and I suggested in the House that this seemed to be, last night, one of the minis ter's diffi culties with this problem .

He, I think, was cballenging me to say that I could not anywhere find the selection process for the ACCESS Programs. And it is true; I did not know until I did some investigation this morning that the minister actually bad a direct rep resentation on these interview committ ees. That was a surprise to me. Of course , having fou nd that out, it made the minister's response even more surprising. But I did go back and look at the representation made to the Roblin review and it does talk there-there are two full paragraphs which deal with selection.

It says, and I am reading from this now : ''The selection process is designed to identify from among those app lica nts who have been judged eligible from the standpoint of need"-so ·that is the first criteria-" tbose who have the motivation and ability to succeed given the program supports available. No one who can succeed without the special supports may be selected. No one who will fa il in spite of the supports should be selected.

This, of course, frequently demands that selection committees have to make difficult judgments , for there is no ob jec tive form ula for deter mining which app licants will be assured successes. In fact, the process is se t up precisely to avoid the probability of falling into fo nnular appro aches.

Instead, there is a hea vy dependence on a system which resembles the legal jury system with a maximum exposure between selection jurors and app licants, and where it worlcs best in insistence on consensus among jurors rather than on a depend ence, on a point system or majority rule. • (15 50) The system is not perfect, and it is sometimes quirky, but over the yea rs bas proven itself amazingly eff ective. As I understa nd it, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, for the ma jority of programs there is a very exhaustive selection process, which begins with inf orming communities about the opportunities for students in this program, and that is a very important stage , because you are not just informing those people who do get into the program this year, but you are bringing some hope and some expectation to a much broader range of people in the community.

As you keep going back to those communities year after year, and as graduates begin to emerge from Berens River and from Grand Rapids and from all the ma ny comm unit ies in norther n Manit oba, the anticipation that college and university is a possibility becomes established in people 's way of looking at their future. So that sele ction p rocess in the first case, I think, is a very important one and bas broader implications beyond the indi viduals eventually selected.

Everybody must meet the requirements of the institution itself, as all students do, but beyond that ACCESS students are interv iewed very thoroughly by two separate committees in most cases-I believe in the case of the Winnipeg Education Centre it bas gone to one committee now-but two separate commi ttees who re ach dif fe rent ju dgments. I believ e the minister ha s representation on the composition of those committ ees. The committees then come to a consensus decision, and the candidates are ordered by rank . Now I am curious as to where the minist er's concerns are with this selection process.

Of course, in the past, a selection process bas been very broad

1827 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 1994 because the iss ue of need bas been a different one than it is now when sbJdents must bring their own funding and must be eligible either for loans or for band funding or for private funding. So we are now selecting from a much narrow er range of students . It is still broad, but it is certainly narrow er than it was, and the range of students who can have expectations of going to college and university will be Dall'Ower, and those who are the poorest are not those who are now applying or considering themselves eligible for this program .

So the basis of selection bas changed somewhat . So I want to ask the min ister where his difficulties are with this selection pr ocess. It is one , I think, that many instimtions wou

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-29
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 29.pdf
Language	en
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